May 8, 2024 • 47 mins
Embark on a riveting journey with Mick Forbes, a veteran firefighter and fire investigator from Fire Rescue New South Wales.
(3) Michael Forbes, AFSM IAAI-CFI CFEI GIFireE | LinkedIn
Grasp the global influence of Australia's fire investigation experts as they export their knowledge to nations near and far.
Mick, donning the additional hat of President of the New South Wales Association of Fire Investigators, talks about the upcoming conference in October of 2024
New South Wales (firearson.com)
Registration | AAFI 2024 | Australasian Association of Fire Investigators Conference 2024.
Mick with a skill set forged in the inferno of countless fire scenes, unveils the meticulous world of fire investigation from the bustling streets of Sydney to the fire and research center recreating and testing real life scenarios.
With three decades of fire exposure under his belt, he stresses the importance of evolving education and hands-on training to sharpen the skills of investigators, ensuring their readiness for the courtroom's rigors and the unpredictable nature of fire itself.
Feel the heat as Mick recounts the chilling Rozelle case, a decade-old puzzle that remains a sobering reminder of the stakes in fire investigation.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi, welcome to CSI on Fire, the podcast that takes
you behind the scenes of thefire investigation community.
I'm your host, Mike Moulden,and episode after episode, we'll
attempt to excavate the oftendifficult but always fascinating
world of the fire investigator.
Welcome to CSI on Fire, theFire Investigation Podcast.
(00:27):
I've got a fantastic guest fromdown under today.
I've got Michael Forbes on thepodcast.
Mike, you know I don'tintroduce the guests, I let them
introduce themselves, so pleasego ahead, tell us your
background, where you come fromand why you're on the podcast
today.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Well g'day, mike, and g'day to your listeners, listen
.
Thanks a lot for inviting me onyour podcast.
Yeah, my name is Michael Forbes.
Well g'day, mike, and g'day toyour listeners, listen.
Thanks a lot for inviting me onyour podcast.
Yeah, my name is Michael Forbes.
I've been a firefighter for 30years with Fire Rescue New South
Wales and I've been in the FireInvestigation and Research Unit
since 2007.
Obviously I've been a careerfirefighter and I sort of looked
(01:01):
at fire investigation well Iguess from the start.
I came out of the college and Iwas just being a firefighter
for a number of years and then Ilooked at doing our
communication section.
So I did a few years at ourcomm centre taking the triple
zero calls which is the 999 inthe UK but our emergency phone
in our comm centre anddispatching fire appliances to
(01:21):
incidents.
I did that for about four years.
I then went over to a hazmatunit.
So I was a hazmat technician atFire Rescue for a couple of
years and that's when I gotpromoted to station officer and
as a station officer you movearound when you start off.
So I moved all over Sydneyleaving, and then I got a
permanent station, but then Iwas still interested in hazmat,
went back to the hazmat unit asa station officer and when I was
(01:45):
there the fire investigationunit was actually next door and
I got to know the fireinvestigators.
So I started doing a couple ofride-alongs with them and I
looked at it and went, wow, thisis very interesting, like a big
jigsaw puzzle and something youcan sort of get your teeth into
and try and work out whatexactly happened.
That really spruced my interestand I did a graduate
certificate in fireinvestigation at Charles Sturt
(02:07):
University in Australia and dida 12-month grad cert course.
I managed to complete that justas an advertisement came up for
a position at the FireInvestigation Research Unit,
fiau we call it.
I was successful in gettingthat position.
So that was in october 2007 whenI first started in in the fire
(02:28):
unit.
So I started doing fires.
We have a process where we justride along or mentors.
A guy mentors you for a monthor two and then you're on your
own.
Those first six months to ayear was really eye-opening.
It was quite difficult hard towork out what was going on.
I was sort of looking at otherstation officers saying what do
you think?
And they would say oh, I don'tknow you're the expert.
(02:49):
I was like well, yes, but no.
So that first year or two wasreally hard, I thought.
But interesting still, and oneof the previous legends of Billy
Powell sort of said to me youknow, it takes about seven years
to learn how to be a fireinvestigator.
I was like seven years really,but yeah, it took quite a few
years and I thought it was aboutthat three or fourth year I
sort of really understood whatwas going on.
(03:10):
I stayed in the unit.
I just really enjoyed the unit.
I really enjoyed fireinvestigation.
I did about 14 years as a fireinvestigator and then I was
moved through the ranks againand I wanted to get promoted
And've moved over to the fireresearch team in 2021.
So I was doing a couple ofyears there and then got
promoted to the inspector leveland just recently, in the last
(03:31):
12 months, I've been acting upinto the manager's role, sort of
an acting superintendent.
So now I'm running the unit,which, again, I really enjoy,
because there are three parts orthree streams to the FIRU Fire
Investigation Research Unit.
We have a fire investigationteam, so we have four fire
investigators on call 24-7covering the whole state, which
is a pretty big state of 8million people, only four
(03:53):
investigators.
And then we have a canine team.
So we have the three nightableliquid detection canines in the
southern hemisphere.
They're a great, great toolthat we use.
And then we have a fireresearch team.
We have two civilians and twooperational firefighters in that
team as well.
Managing a small team is reallygood.
They're really good people interms of.
They're all really committedand really passionate about what
(04:13):
they do.
It makes my job as the managerquite easy in the sense that you
don't have to worry about them.
They're doing really reallygood work.
We run about 180 to 200incidents on the fire
investigation site a year aboutthat 200, 220 incidents for the
canines that attend so thecanines also.
We have two fire services in NewSouth Wales.
We have the rural fire servicethat look after the majority of
(04:36):
the land, so probably about 80%85% of the land in New South
Wales, and then fire rescuelooks after about 10% or 15% of
the land size, but we look after80%, probably more, 90% of the
population in those metropolitantowns.
We've got full-timefirefighters, retained
firefighters, so all up aboutnearly 7,000 firefighters, both
(04:57):
retained and permanent, and it'sthe biggest fire service in the
country.
I've been sort of lucky in thatsense because we're in the
biggest city.
There's about 6 million peoplein the city, so it's quite a
large area.
We have over 100 fire stations,so we get a lot of fires.
And I've been very lucky as afire investigator to get exposed
to a wide variety of jobs overthe time I was doing fire
(05:19):
investigation.
That's basically been my careerat this stage so far.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Yeah, great summary.
So how does it work inAustralia?
Is it any different?
I know that just offline wewere talking about you attending
coroner's court and that sortof stuff.
Who has the sort of?
Is it fire serviceresponsibility to prosecute and
investigate, or how does it work?
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Yeah, so in New South Wales, again, there's different
jurisdictions in the country.
Each state has its own sort offire service and there's no
national sort of fire service.
So New South Wales Policeessentially investigate fires.
What does Fire Rescue do?
We just provide that opinioninto the origin and cause.
As a fire investigator, when afire occurs, the reporting
(05:57):
officer, the first arrivingofficer at that scene, takes
charge of that scene.
They have responsibility toextinguish, to make safe and
then obviously do an initialorigin and cause investigation
into the fire.
Now, if they can't work it out,they then call us and we can
then provide assistance, eitherby the phone, video conferencing
or we can actually attend.
Because there's only twoon-call fire investigators 24-7,
(06:20):
.
It makes it a bit hard.
The distances we have to go, sofrom east to west, from Sydney
to our western border, can takeyou 10-12 hours drive.
To the north it takes abouteight hours and to the south
about six hours from Sydney.
It's a big area that we cover.
Getting to those regional areascan take a bit of time.
If they suspect a crime hasoccurred or we don't know, then
(06:41):
New South Wales Police will takecontrol of the site and they
will declare a crime scene, thentheir crime scene officers will
then come in and investigatethe fire with us.
Generally we have to have acrime scene officer standing
next to us when we investigatethe fire because they are
legislated under the Crimes Actto move or remove any evidence
and seize evidence.
(07:01):
We again are invited in fromthem.
So they have to be signed off,so they have to be fire
investigators themselves.
So New South Wales crime scenethey have about 110, 120 crime
scene officers that are firetrained.
Obviously we've only got four.
They obviously rely heavily onus because all we do is fire.
Yet crime scene officers in NewSouth Wales Police they do
(07:23):
everything.
They have to be signed off formurders, for sexual assaults,
for shootings, stuff like thatand fire.
We find that when we wereturning up to these scenes they
looked to us for that expertiseand then New South Wales Police
detectives they run the job.
So they're officer in charge ofan incident or a fire in their
area.
So they will obviously look tous again saying give us your
(07:43):
opinion.
So a statement If it's asignificant fire and unknown, so
it goes to the coroner.
So all those fires arereportable to the New South
Wales coroner.
But yeah, if it's criminal,then obviously they sort of
write up a brief of evidence andthe brief of evidence then is
given to the prosecutors, theOffice of the Director of Public
Prosecutions in New South Wales, and then it's then prosecuted
(08:05):
through the criminal justicesystem.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Gotcha, gotcha, okay, fantastic.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Other states is a little bit different.
Victoria is a little bitdifferent.
Police will do everything downthere and essentially if it's a
deliberate fire, in Victoria thefire investigators aren't
allowed to actually come in tothe scene.
They won't let them in, whichis a bit of a shame.
In WA the Police Arson Unit dothe crime scene as well.
The detectives actually do thecrime scene as well.
(08:29):
So little states have justtheir slight little variations.
But each state in fire servicehas a fire investigation unit.
We sort of come together aswell and that's the other thing
that I do is there's AFAC, whichis the Australasian Fire
Authority Council.
For any service, any publicagency that has a fire
investigation service, sits on afire investigation network.
(08:51):
So it's called the FIN Groupand I'm chair of that as well.
So we come together once a year.
We have this obviously a greatnetwork where fires coming up,
this type of fire, or theybounce ideas off things.
Big problem at the moment islithium ion batteries.
So the Finn group is actually,you know, talking to each other
about how we're dealing withlithium ion batteries.
(09:12):
We've had the first fewfatalities now in this country,
lithium ion batteries.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
So that's where the network really comes in handy so
that we can all talk to eachother, to be able to say what
are you doing, how are you guysdoing it, and stuff like that
talk to each other to be able tosay what are you doing, how are
you guys doing, and stuff likethat Very similar to UK in terms
of fatalities happening viasort of lithium batteries and
e-scooter bikes and that kind ofstuff.
How does it work?
Because I know you're a littlebit unique and separate to UK
not that separate to America,but Australian Federal Police
(09:38):
have you got involved with themor how's that work?
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Australian Federal Police.
Their jurisdiction is in theACT, which is the Australian
Capital Territory.
It's its own sort ofjurisdiction.
It's actually inside New SouthWales where the nation's capital
is, which is the city ofCanberra.
So they obviously are the crimescene officers for Canberra and
the ACT and there is a fireservice it's the ACT Fire Rescue
(10:05):
inside Canberra.
So again they have a small fireinvestigation unit.
So they will do the crime sceneanalysis and all that stuff.
But there are sort of times whenthey will deploy.
For example we had on ChristmasIsland.
They had a whole big fires,bunch of fires over there.
So the AFP forensics deployedto Christmas Island, which is an
island off the northwest ofAustralia where they do
(10:25):
immigration, detention and stufflike that.
They have the ability.
And also we have in the Pacificareas.
There was a number of fires inthe Solomon Islands or in
Vanuatu.
So the AFP forensics deployedto those countries to assist
their country.
They invited them in to assistin some of the fires that were
happening over there, somearsons and stuff like that.
(10:47):
They are, I guess, the nationalrepresentative when a crime
occurs.
I know that the AFP, forexample, deployed to the MH17
air disaster.
I know it wasn't a fire, butcertainly the DBI and assisting
in crime scenes and stuff theydeployed over there.
So we do work with them.
They have their own fireinvestigation course.
We sort of teach on thosecourses and provide advice and
(11:08):
stuff like that.
So again they're part of thenetwork around the country and
we train together, attendworkshops together, conferences
and things like that.
So we see them all the time.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Good.
You kind of sound like you'rewell-joined up in communication
and that's all good.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Yeah, and that's the big thing around fire
investigation.
I've heard all your guestspreviously about what it means
to be a fire investigator.
Is certainly to us is thenetworking, and your 1033
document says you've got to keepyour education up and as part
of that education we're a littlebit of the poor cousins in
Australia.
I keep telling my bosses thatfor us in Australia it's really
hard to get fire investigationtraining because it's all
(11:49):
overseas.
I've been lucky to be able togo overseas a few times to get
that training because you haveto do this yourself.
You can't sit back and justwait for the training to come to
you.
And I guess what I've tried todo over the years is provide
opportunities for training andI'm also president of the New
South Wales Association of FireInvestigators.
(12:10):
That's chapter 47 of the IAAI,and we have done over the years
is bring courses from the IAAIover here.
We've done the motor vehiclefire investigation course twice
now to bring it to Australia,and this year we're planning on
bringing the 40-hourfundamentals fire investigation
course to Australia, to Sydney,actually in October, and that's,
(12:31):
I guess, what I feel is lackingin Australia.
Is that real, that introductoryfire course, Rather than doing
it online in a computer.
You know we're going to set upfire cells at our facility.
We can do some burns.
And you know we're going to setup fire cells at our facility.
We can do some burns and, youknow, offer a course that new
investigators and evenexperienced investigators can
come in refresh their skills,because there's just nothing
(12:53):
like that in this country wherea fire investigator, whether
they're new or experienced, canactually go into a burnt cell
that we know exactly what'shappened and actually pull it
apart, get your hands dirty andthen sort of see the video at
the end.
I know we have our own trainingin Fire Rescue New South Wales.
We train our station officersand we changed the way we train
our station officers about threeyears ago 2020, where they came
(13:17):
to me and said we want tochange it.
Now we want to make itface-to-face and, as it was just
online, the station officersare doing their fire
investigation training.
So, as it was just online, thestation officers are doing their
fire investigation training.
So I said, listen, if we'regoing to do it, we're going to
do it properly.
So we've got this facility thatwe can do test burns in
northwest Sydney and I set afire out there and now the
station officers.
I give them two days of theoryand then the third day we go out
(13:37):
and they go out and investigatea scene and then they come back
and they write up their opinionand it's actually happening
this week.
On Tuesday They've done thetraining last week and Tuesday
they actually come in and I givethem a mock court and I'm like
the judge and the defence andthe prosecution all at once and
we put them under pressure andwe actually give them some hard
questions.
Words matter, so tell us whatare you actually saying and
(13:59):
definitions and things like that, and that gives us a taste of
what we do at FIAU as a fireinvestigator.
But these are the people thatare going to the scenes, those
first responders that areattending, and they just need to
be upskilled and they justhaven't had that in the past and
the last three or four yearswe've trained the 200 officers
now within fire risk in NewSouth Wales to be actually
really upskill, a component andthen utilize what FIAU is, which
(14:22):
is assisting frontlinefirefighters in their origin and
cause determination.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Yeah, brilliant, Brilliant.
I think there's nothing toreplace.
I mean, we've got some riversoftware at the North Arab
University and stuff, butthere's nothing really to
replace having a live burn andthen digging out afterwards and
you just can't replace that.
And I think the mock courtthing is fantastic because it
does allow you to make mistakesin that kind of safe environment
and I always think you takemuch more out of the things that
(14:49):
you've missed or the thingsthat have been pointed out in
peer checking, review and stuff.
You go and you never forgetthose sorts of things.
We were just chatting offlineabout how we came to be
discussing and I didn't actuallyfind you through the New South
Wales Association.
Well, I did in a way, but Ifound you via the YouTube
channel because I just searchedup fire investigation and it's
part of that.
Some really good stuff on thereand I know you're president and
(15:12):
some really good stuff on there.
I'm going to give him a shoutbecause I think it's a real
fundamental.
It's Tim Ryan.
And just tell us what Tim Ryancame on and did for you and some
of the other online coursesthat you've got or online
seminars that you've got there.
Mick.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Yes, I've been president there for 10 years.
I've been a member since 2007.
But I guess when I becamepresident, our big thing is
around education, just providingthose opportunities and it's
really hard, as I said, but wegenerally have an education
night once every second month,so probably five or six a year.
We offer and we just try andget different people on and just
get them to talk about it.
(15:45):
It's roughly in the fireinvestigation industry.
Sometimes it's not.
We also have relationships withthe Australian New Zealand
Forensic Science Society.
We share their education nightsand they share ours.
We get some people from ANSPIScoming on and whoever's
interesting talk we get them on.
So Tim's a firefighter.
He's been there 20 years pluscareer and he was in our
(16:07):
firefighter training team.
So he was teaching recruits allthe basics around fire behavior
, fire dynamics.
Obviously we'd seen that at ouracademy and stuff like that.
I was told by a friend.
I said you should get him onbecause he really explains it.
And when I did see it in theclassroom I said yeah, actually
that's pretty good.
So I just said that to him.
I said listen, why don't youcome on and talk about what you
(16:28):
talk about, which is just thebasics of fire and basics of
fire dynamics and how it allworks, when you know inside a
compartment and stuff like that.
And this is pre-COVID,pre-covid.
We used to just start recordingour education nights, mainly
because we've got about 160members or so but, it's very
hard for them to get into Sydneyand be in Sydney and see these
education nights, because wewere doing it face-to-face.
(16:50):
This was all pre-COVID stuff.
We didn't know what Zoom was,so we'd record it and then we'd
just create our own YouTubechannel and just put them on
there just so that other peoplecan see them.
He did one and then we actuallytook off.
It's the biggest one we've hadand I can't remember how many
views it is, but it's like over10,000 views or something.
I think it's so popular becauseit's nice and simple and he
just breaks it down and he talksreally well, nice and clear and
(17:13):
concise, and just makes iteasier for the viewer to
understand.
And every time I do something,he sort of comes up to me and
says how's my YouTube site going?
Is it still the first?
Speaker 1 (17:29):
I'll have to share this podcast with him now, you
know, make him feel real good,his is really good and the whole
education thing is fantastic,and that's basically what it's
all about really today and foryour YouTube channel.
But I think, just taking itfrom that very basics one, which
he does fantastically well andit's the first one I came across
, I'll be honest with you, I'vewatched it several times just to
get it into the brain, butyou've taken it right up to
(17:52):
modern day.
The last one I watched yourswas by ev fire safe, which takes
us right up to date with kindof lithium batteries and stuff.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
So that's obviously an emerging problem yeah, yeah,
obviously we've got like everyother fire service in the world.
We're dealing with more andmore of these incidents, even
though it hasn't really got intomotor vehicles or EV vehicles.
We've only had six confirmed EVbuyers in Australia, which is a
very small number compared to,say, the US, but there's only
(18:19):
about 180,000 EV vehicles, fullEV vehicles, in this country.
And, yeah, EV FireSafe are sortof becoming a little bit bigger
and well-known in the EV sortof space.
And yeah, again, one of mycommittee members sort of
suggested let's get MRs.
We found from that.
It was like oh great, Actuallywe had an EV fire in New South
(18:40):
Wales where something fell offthe back of the truck, went
under the Tesla and ripped thebattery right through, went into
a thermal runaway on thehighway, one of the main
highways in New South Wales.
Anyway, that vehicle got toweddown to Tesla in Melbourne.
They were able to actually pullit apart and that's something
that obviously fireinvestigators are very
interested in and we said comeon in and they'd only just sort
(19:01):
of finished that sort ofinvestigation and they were able
to talk about it.
So it was really good timing forus.
But it was really good to beable to see it because, again,
it's an emerging issue.
But for fire investigators,what I want them to do is to try
and talk about the safety whenwe're investigating these type
of fires, because there are alot more risks around
investigating these type ofdevices or vehicles.
(19:22):
Yeah, that's a big thing aswell that everyone should be
thinking about all the time, andCyra was really really good.
So, yeah, we got a lot ofpeople interested in that
because she's very popular onLinkedIn and things like that,
so people get to see it.
So it was good.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
I think what I really liked about that one was that
when they placed the actualpiece of debris that caused the
damage and they kind of youcould physically put it back
into where the damage was, andthat was basic, kind of real
forensic, kind of just realobservational putting things
back like a jigsaw.
Oh, okay, that literally fitsin there.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
So that was fantastic .
Yeah, and that's the same at afire scene, isn't it Like you go
there and you find the deviceand you just go oh, this is what
it is.
Sometimes you reconstruct andyou see a piece that's missing
and you go hang on.
I think I know where that camefrom.
It is that jigsaw puzzle, whichis what we're all trying to do,
isn't it?
We're all trying to solve thatpuzzle.
It doesn't happen every time,but when it does, man, you feel
good, yeah, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Let's move on to.
I know you talked about theassociation and the chapter, et
cetera.
I know you've got somethingcoming up in October.
Do you just want to I'm notsure call out for papers and
stuff?
So just brief us about that,mate.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Yeah for sure, new South Wales AFI is hosting the
next Australasian Association ofFire and Investigation
Conference.
So it's a double AFI.
So there are four chapters thatmake up the Australasian.
So there's Queensland, newSouth Wales, victoria and New
Zealand, and every two years wecome together to do our
conference.
So it was in 2022, it was inQueensland, so this year we're
(20:50):
hosting it.
We last hosted it in 2016.
So, yeah, we're calling out for,uh, people to give us an
abstract.
It's going to be in october, so21st and 22nd of october, and
then we're actually having afield today.
So we're actually asking forpeople around that.
Lithium ion batteries and fireinvestigation is the theme.
We've got cameron novak comingout from the us, so he's a
electrical engineer with the atf, so he's going to come out and
(21:11):
give like an electricaldemonstration.
So we're going to burn somedevices, some common devices
here in Australia, electricaldevices and we're going to sort
of have them burnt, and thenhe's going to give like a
demonstration on how well youknow the points to look for in a
fire investigation, how to pullthings apart, what to look for.
But we're also going to have awildfire component.
So a big part of ourassociation is RFS members.
(21:34):
That's obviously their interest, which is wildfires.
So we've got one of the biggestexperts in the country, richard
Woods.
He's going to come up.
He's from Canberra, so he'sgoing to come up and we've got
an area in our facility as well,our Llanderry Fire Research
Facility.
That's all grass and bush.
So we're going to set somefires prior to the conference.
People that are interested onthat, they can go over to the
(21:55):
wildfire section and richardwill walk you through a number
of small little fires that we'regoing to set.
So he's going to have like atheory component, obviously
within the conference, and thenon the practical side on the
wednesday he's going to be outthere in the field.
We're going to have peopletrying to flag the wildfires,
trying to work out where theorigin is, see if they can see
any ignition sources, thingslike that.
And also, because we're doingthe 40-hour the week before part
(22:19):
of the conference, the cellsfrom that will still be there.
So you can walk through thecells.
You can go to the electricalside with Cameron or you can go
to the Wi-Fi side with Richard.
So that practical day, thatinfield day, will give you a few
options to walk around.
So we did the same sort of thingin 2016 when we had Steve
Parman come out here.
He did a practical sort of burnabout his thing, which is
(22:39):
ventilation and elevated origins.
That worked really well.
So that's what we're trying tocontinue that thing.
Get out into the actual fieldwith your colleagues and come
down and have a bit of fun there.
So that's three days the 21st,22nd and 23rd of October.
It's going to be held inWestern Sydney Western Sydney
Conference Centre, which is anice brand-new facility, and,
(22:59):
yeah, come on down under andyou'll get to see it all happen
down there.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Brilliant, fantastic.
I actually had Richard Woods on.
He's not come out yet, but wehad him.
Roderick Jones and Rich came on.
It's the first ever time thatwe had three on a podcast, if
that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Some fascinating investigative techniques and
kind of dispelling some mythsaround signal, alerts and stuff.
Yeah, fantastic, veryexperienced, and that training
is his thing and he trains a lot, especially overseas, around
Wi-Fi.
So we get to use him for ourconference, which will be great,
fantastic.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Let's move on.
I'll put all these dates and ifyou've got any links and stuff,
we'll put them all on thepodcast notes.
If that's okay, let's move onto.
Probably might start toembarrass you now, but I know
that you're the IWI Investigatorof the Year in 2023.
Just talk us through that whathappened there, and take us
through the case if you can.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
Well, it was a big surprise.
Sunday I got a phone call fromRose, who's an IAAI Director in
charge of the wards.
I'm like, oh, by the way,you've just won the Investigator
of the Year.
I said for what I didn't evenknow.
I was nominated A friend ofmine, ross Brogan, who is one of
the legends in New South Wales.
He was one of the originalmembers of the Fire
Investigation Unit when it wasformed in 1987.
(24:06):
He was the first FireInvestigator there.
Ex-new South Wales AFI memberas well, long-time friend.
He nominated me just quietlybecause I was involved in this
case and he was also involved inthe case and did a review of my
statement for the prosecution.
So this case I call it sort ofwoman on fire and it's a case
that came to me in 2015.
(24:27):
So the incident occurred in2013 and I didn't actually
attend the incident, but it wasbefore and the coroner actually
said have you got an expert inthe origin and cause of the fire
?
And the police went, no, no, wehaven't.
They rang the arson unit andthe arson unit said ring Forbesy
.
So they rang me.
So they came down and gave methe brief and when I read the
brief I sort of said well, thiswoman was found fully engulfed
(24:54):
in flames walking down herdriveway with her husband behind
her trying to power the fire.
And when I went to brief, Isort of said, well, I think if
we're going to do this, we'regoing to have to set someone on
fire.
And so I said that's my boss.
And he went what?
and then I said it to the policeand they went what but then I
sat down so this, we just get astunt person and stunt woman,
stunt man and we can just do itthat way and get some mannequins
and things like that.
And then once they thoughtabout it, they went, okay, let's
(25:15):
do it.
The facility that we use it'sgood for these type of things.
We can sort of do what we want.
And so I went out to the siteand I measured it and then I put
that on the ground and measuredthe distances and we managed to
get a stuntwoman and she had ateam of four or three other
colleagues and her and they werein charge of sort of their
safety and we're just obviouslyobserving.
(25:37):
We had a whole bunch ofmannequins, so we had 14 sets of
clothes and we tried to sort ofdo numerous test burns or
demonstrations to be able toshow what is possible.
You know she was covered inpetrol Top.
She showed that she had 95%burns, but the only part of the
body that wasn't burnt was herhead and the bottoms of her feet
.
So my role or my aim of thetesting was to try to replicate
(26:03):
her burns, that is, to be ableto show how does a body totally
burn in terms of all, the arms,legs, torso, back but the head
does not.
So that was the only way.
I just couldn't sort of in myhead like I have to do some
tests.
So we started doing some testsjust with, firstly without
petrol, just the clothing, tosee how that burned, then with
(26:24):
petrol, and then we just trieddifferent levels of petrol.
Now they were in charge of hersafety, so they were the ones
sort of pouring petrol on herand then igniting it.
But what we sort of saw wasthat as soon as you pour the
petrol on the body, especiallysort of on the torso, and you
ignite it, the flash fire occursand you can see that and she
(26:44):
starts pushing through toprotect the head.
But once ignition occurs andyou start walking, the head is
protected.
So then we start thinking well,okay, so she's going to be
walking for that head to beprotected.
But when you pour and obviouslywith petrol petrol is very
ignitable.
It's an ignitable liquid butit's very volatile because its
flashpoint is so low.
(27:05):
As soon as you open thatcontainer the vapours are coming
off.
The vapours are coming off, sothose lighter components of the
petrol comes off and you're leftwith the heavy components.
Now, when you pour it onto theclothing, the liquid stays there
.
Now there was a period of time.
She called triple zero, whichis the emergency number, 13
(27:27):
minutes prior to the policearriving, so there was a
13-minute period.
She rang triple zero, she saidphone call.
She said my husband just triedto kill me.
13 minutes later, new SouthWales Police arrived at the
scene and she was on fire on theNature Street, which is the
front porch or the front part ofthe road right next to the road
.
So that 13 minutes something'shappened and then there's
(27:48):
witnesses to see her walkingdown a driveway totally on fire,
trying to work out whathappened.
Because of that, 13 minutesafter we'd done a few tests, I
thought well, what happens if wepour the petrol and then wait
and allow vaporisation to occur?
Because the petrol can wasfound in the laundry but it had
(28:09):
the lid on and it had beenplaced in their cupboard and the
doors were closed, so there wasstill petrol in it.
So there was a time that hadthe pouring and there was petrol
on the tiles.
There was petrol on theselittle rubber carpet mats.
Her fingerprints were on thecontainer.
I knew that there wasvaporisation must have something
to do with this.
When we did that test, when wepoured and we waited, and there
(28:34):
was a lighter found in thelaundry as well with no DNA and
no fingerprints in it as wellwhen we did that test, the fire
is very small.
It only starts out small.
Now, if you start walking witha small fire, the fire will
spread because it's still in thegarments, it's still producing
vapours and now it's spreadingbecause of the walking.
(28:55):
But the head is critical.
So that's how I came up with myopinion.
My opinion was that it was apouring time of period of
vapourisation, then ignitionoccurred and then we did a
number of tests where on thecrime scene there was bits of
clothing that we had come off,and it took about 20 seconds
before clothing came off.
So in that time, walking fromthe laundry to the corner of the
(29:18):
house where the first bit ofdebris was found was about that
20-second mark.
So that's how I came up with myopinion.
I wrote my opinion and I was inthe coroner's court two weeks
later giving that opinion and itwas just about origin and cause
for me.
My role wasn't to say who litthe fire, it was just about
origin and cause.
I wrote that opinion for thecoroner.
(29:40):
So then two years later thiswas in 2015.
So in 2017, the coroner shutdown.
After that I gave my opinion inthe coroner's court.
They shut down the inquest andthey gave it to the DPP
recommending charges I don'tknow.
But then the DPP considered itand it took them two years.
And then the DPP considered itand it took them two years and
then the DPP came back andcharged the husband with murder.
(30:00):
Now I again wrote an opinionfor a coroner's court.
Now it's in a criminal court.
It was quite different.
And then two years later, wehad a murder trial.
So I'm off to the murder trial.
The week before the murder trial, the Crown Prosecutor brought
me into the office and saidMichael, thank you for your
testing.
It was really, really good, butwe're not going to use it.
And I'm like what, how?
(30:22):
That's how I got my opinion.
He goes yes, well, the testing.
It's too risky because therewas a previous trial in New
South Wales where a professordid some testing for again
another murder trial and in theCriminal Court of Appeal in New
South Wales it was thrown outbecause that professor was not
(30:42):
an expert in that area.
He should not have done thosetype of tests.
It shouldn't have been allowed.
But I said I'm an expert in fire, I'm doing fire investigation,
I'm doing fire tests.
This is my experts lane.
You know I'm in my lane andthey said I'm not gonna use it.
I said how are you gonna get it, because I would never have got
that opinion if I had not doneit.
Oh, we're not going to use it.
I said how are you going to getit, because I would never have
got that opinion if I had notdone it.
Oh, we're going to do a usualknowledge training experience,
michael, and we'll get theopinion out of that.
I'm like very frustrated.
(31:03):
The defence was allowed to usemy report, though.
They definitely used my reportand they can do that.
Anyway, trial happens and it'sa hung jury.
Now we're now in COVID, so thesecond trial was in 2021.
And a second trial, again thesame thing.
They wouldn't use the testingand it come back and he was
acquitted and that's fine and itdoesn't really worry me about
(31:26):
the result.
I just wanted to get thattesting in admissible in court
because I've done so much work,but it was too prejudicial to
the accused.
So what I do now and that's onething I've done over many years
is I like, if I don't knowwhat's happened, I want to be
able to do some testing aroundit or some demonstrations, and
we've got the facility to do it.
So we do it and I try todemonstrate what's possible and
(31:50):
what's not possible.
I get a better understandingbecause I find that with FIRE I
think you know what's going tohappen.
Until you actually do ademonstration you go oh, I
wasn't expecting that, becauseof a lot of variables involved
and it's very, very hard to getreplicate exactly what happened
at a scene.
It's not really like researchor it's not really a test or
replication of what you're doing.
(32:11):
It's more just a demonstrationof what's possible.
You try and relay that to the.
So what we do now is, if policecome to us with these type of
incidents, I come up with a testschedule or a demonstration
schedule and I send it back tothe police and I say get your
legal, your prosecutors, to havea look at the schedule and get
them to sort of approve it sothat it has the best chance of
(32:34):
being made admissible in a court.
And I've got another casecoming up next month where the
same thing happened in SouthAustralia, a similar case, and
they were an expert.
I said, listen, let's do somedemonstrations.
We did some demonstrations andit's another murder trial and
I'm in court next month for that.
So hopefully that one I believeit will be a missile in court.
(32:55):
All the testing we did andthat's another case study.
Once it's all finished out,hopefully I'll publish it
somewhere in the IAAI journal.
But yeah, very interesting.
But I'm a real big believer intrying to produce testing around
fire and demonstrating what'spossible and what's not possible
, because that's where you learnthe most.
As we say, you've got to burnto learn.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Yeah, nice, I like that.
I'm gonna nick that, that's forsure.
I think we were just chattingoffline and I think we suffer as
well in the fire investigationworld from the csi effect as
well.
What's called the csi effect.
It often takes sort of videoevidence sometimes or
demonstrations, as you said, orpracticals to actually show
what's happening, because thereis a perception that it's the
(33:35):
old cigarette in ignitableliquid kind of mentality and
that's what jurors see on thefilms and they watch backdraft
and these sorts of things andthe perception is backdraft,
whether you can see all theactors that smoke etc, etc.
I think it's really reallyimportant and, as I said, we
were just chatting offline Ishowed the senior investigating
officer a couple of videos andthat completely kind of awakened
(33:57):
that person to the realities ofwhat I was not very well trying
to describe can be shownthrough a series of tests and
that sort of penny drops.
I think it's absolutelyfantastic that you're doing that
kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
And I've had that exact same case as well.
So again we turned up to ahouse fire.
There's petrol all through thejoint.
The owner comes out and sayslisten, I was just carrying my
petrol containers through thehouse.
They were full and some petrolcame out.
I had a cigarette and itdropped from the ground and just
started.
I went hey, let's do that.
(34:29):
So, I went out to our Londondairy site and I got the petrol
and I shaked it around on thecarpet and I lit a cigarette and
I threw it on the ground and itdoesn't happen.
So yeah, you've got to actuallyshow these things what's
possible and what's not possible.
Firstly, understand it foryourself, but then try and tell
others.
Tell the other story, like,tell the police and then,
obviously, a court.
(34:49):
You've really got to burn tolearn even FIs.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
I think FIs have some .
We you know, in the pastthere's been some misconceptions
, some myths.
John Lentini does a lot of workon the myths of fire
investigation, I think.
But we are all subject to ourcognitive bias.
You know, I remember watchingBackdraft whenever that came out
.
I don't care to remember a fewyears ago.
When you watch that stuff, thatis whether you like it,
consciously or unconsciously,that is in the back and you've
(35:14):
got to unlearn those sorts ofmisconceptions, I think.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Yeah, that's what I teach.
When I teach in my life, Iteach this as well.
There are a lot of myths outthere and the books that are out
there are there to read so thatyou can sort of educate
yourself to try and understandif they are a myth or not, and
if you're still unsure, do thetest yourself.
We're privileged in the sensethat we do have a facility here
(35:41):
in New South Wales to do thattype of testing, but as a fire
service, there should be someplace somewhere where you can
actually conduct some type ofsmall tests and stuff like burn
things, because we are a fireservice.
If you've got a fire service,there's surely somewhere you can
burn, but you get out there anddo it, because that is where
the most learnings occur.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
Absolutely yeah, and I think there's an advocate in
large-scale tests or anythingbut in the back garden, in a
cleared area, you know, fivemetres from the back,
non-flambeau items.
I've done some tests in theback of my garden type thing,
just on a small scale, to justget that concept and see if I'm
thinking, if what I'm thinkingis right.
Or nine times out of ten it'sactually thinking.
I'm looking at something andsomething's saying to me that
(36:23):
just doesn't seem right.
The ventilation effects or justbuilding a little model or
doing some testing has alwaysworked for me anyway I've
actually done it at a scene.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
You've seen something burn like, hey, what is that?
You know, you just let's grabit from the scene and then take
it outside and then try and burnit or understand, should that
burn?
Can it burn?
What's a burn like?
Just do it from the scene andsee exactly why you're there
yeah, a little burn test on.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Like I had a big job actually and there was some
material that was a questionwhether it will burn or whether
it won't burn.
It's just getting a smallamount, see if, see if it's hey,
it's ignitable and it continuesto burn.
It's invaluable, really, okayfantastic.
I think we're doing really well,we're filling the time, but if
there's a top tip or trick or isthere one thing that you've
learned over the years to sortof pass on to the fire
(37:09):
investigation community, whetheryou're a student or whether
you've been doing it for 30years?
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Yeah, I've heard this through your podcast.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
It's a good tip so I've been thinking about it.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
But yeah, I always say I can read 921 to about four
years doing this job, and whatI tell fine risk guys now is
read it day one, day one.
Just sit down and start readingNFPA 921, because essentially
your whole job is in that book,everything that you need to do.
And I attended a very largeexplosion in Roselle in Sydney
(37:39):
in 2014.
It's the 10th anniversary thisyear, actually and I turned up
and it was a massive explosionand then fire.
Three people were died and itwas a full collapse two-level
building and I turned up therehad no idea what to do.
It was the biggest thing I hadever seen seen and took eight
hours probably 10 hours beforewe got the bodies out.
And then we had to work out.
(38:00):
We actually had to demolishanother building, like a whole
two-level corner building, toget to the scene.
So those negotiations withpolice took six days before we
could actually get into thescene and then we had to
excavate the scene for threedays.
So that's a really big job.
And then we found a whole bunchof petrol through the joint and
the owner was charged.
(38:21):
It was another murder trial.
After the murder trial my firstmurder trial.
He was found guilty.
I spent 10 days at the scene.
And then I went back to theoffice and started to write up
my statement and stuff like thatand I'm thinking explosions,
you know like well, I should put.
921 says about explosions.
I read the explosions chapterand I went oh, I should have
done that.
Oh, I should have done that.
(38:41):
And I just realised bloody hell,I've got to keep reading.
I've got to keep reading more.
So my top tip is just read 921.
A lot of the answers to thequestions and a lot of processes
of how to do things.
It's just in there.
The answers are all there.
Yes, we're still going to belearning and there's still a
mountain that you don't know andyou won't ever know it all.
So you always continue to sortof understand that there's
(39:04):
always something more to learn.
But, yeah, the basics of fineinvestigations in that book and
you should know it and youshould read it.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
I think it's a common language as well.
If you read the book and you do, the terminology, it gives us
that Whether you're in Australiaor whether you're in South
America I interviewed RicardoTorres yesterday and it doesn't
matter where you are If you canget together and you can speak a
common language in terms offire, then you know I teach my
students I say you know, this isthe book.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
There's no Australian book book.
There's no uk book.
It's the nfba book.
We all use it and I know itsays it's a guide and and don't
have to use it.
But all the answers are there.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
Well, not all of them , but certainly when you're
starting out, that's going to beyour best reference to get your
understandings yeah, I think interms of the younger generation
that are coming behind us,they'll know nothing different
than 921 in the sense of.
In the UK when I first startedI think Roger Ide's book was
probably the prevalent one.
It's a little guidebook, verysmall.
We'd never even heard of 921 inthat sense.
(40:04):
So I think now if you look atIWAI, obviously they recommend a
separate entity, nafi, nationalAssociation of Fire Rescuiters
in the States.
They recommend it All the theworld obviously kind of work to
it.
So there's got to be something.
If everyone's saying use thisbook, there's got to be some
logic there.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
The court system in the US, you know, sees it as the
authoritative text and stufflike that.
And certainly in Australia weare a little bit behind that
sense that I would go up to Ispeak with prosecutors and I
speak with coroners and I say,have you ever heard of 921?
They go, no, never heard of it.
And you don't expect them toknow it.
We've got to teach them, we'vegot to upskill them the lawyers
(40:44):
about what is supposed to be,how it's supposed to be done.
You're always going to havesomeone on the other side who's
going to rubbish you.
You've got to show yourself asthe credible one and you're
following procedure and theterminology and things like that
.
So to do your best work, you'vegot to follow the way it should
be done and I think 921 does along way for that.
(41:05):
Yeah, certainly there's otherbooks out there and other ways
of doing it, but 921 should beyour basis of your knowledge.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
Yeah, definitely Brilliant.
Okay, of course, 1033 kind ofsets out what you should and
shouldn't know as well.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
Again, it's a standard for the US.
There's no standard here inAustralia.
But I try to sort of again USsort of leads, the way I would
say US fire investigationindustry is this big, which is
like very wide, and the fireinvestigation industry in
Australia is only about acentimetre wide.
That's a small industry here inthis country in Australia is
only about a centimetre wide.
(41:37):
That's a small industry here inthis country.
And 1033 is a great guide forfire investigators on how you
should be training yourself.
We use it at FireRisky.
We use that Wiles as anassessment tool for new fire
investigators.
So we essentially have achecklist which has come from
1033.
So it tells you that the JPRstell you that a fire
investigator should be doingthis, this and this at a scene.
(41:59):
So we put that in theassessment.
We give our new fireinvestigators some knowledge.
We do ride-alongs butessentially you're assessing
them on the process.
It's not about gettingaccidental or the deliberate
fire.
It's about the process.
Can you manage a scene fromstart to finish without anyone
coming in and telling you don'tforget about this, don't forget
about that.
(42:19):
You're not going to get fullyright all the time.
You're always going to forgetthings.
The process is what is beingassessed, and 1033 gives you
those processes of what our fireinvestigators should possess,
those JPRs.
So that's how we use it.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
Yeah, I mean, it's almost written for you.
You know why reinvent the wheelwhen it's already there?
So yeah, fantastic.
All right, mate.
Well, thanks, listen.
We're coming towards the end ofour time, unfortunately.
Is there anything else?
I'd just like to give a littlemop-up session.
Is there anything else thatwe've not discussed?
That you?
Fatality from lithium-ionbatteries in New South Wales.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
Queensland have had a couple and South Australia has
had a couple, so we've only hadfour incidents of fatalities.
It's a big issue, obviouslyfrom a community safety.
We are obviously banging onmessages around batteries,
especially your e-scooters,e-bikes.
If you damage them, if you muckaround them and try and adapt
them and things like that,they're very, very dangerous.
What I'm dealing with now atthe moment for us is just from a
(43:22):
fire investigations perspective.
I've got police calling mesaying what do I do with these
batteries?
They want to seize them andanalyse them, but they're so
dangerous you can't transportthem once they've been exposed
to fire.
So that's a contemporary, verybig contemporary issue for fire
investigators in Australia andNew Zealand at the moment.
I guess my message is we lookto overseas.
We certainly look to overseasUS and FDNY things like that
(43:45):
about guidance.
There's a lot of research in theoverseas as well.
We're trying to do our ownresearch program within fire
rescue.
It's called the SARET, which isthe Safety of Alternate
Renewable Energies TechnologiesResearch Program.
We're trying to do some testingin Australia.
We're using our London DairyFacility trying to do full EV
burns how sprinklers operatewhen EVs are in car parks,
(44:09):
things like that get a betterunderstanding for ourselves.
So we are in that space doingthat, but it's a very big issue
how do we do it?
The safety of doing it withfire investigators as well?
Who can actually analyse thesetype of devices as well?
These batteries, like who isactually qualified to pull apart
and actually say this batterycaused the fire?
(44:29):
Now that's really difficult.
I don't think there's anyoneout there that can actually do
that.
These are the challenges thatwe have at the moment.
So there's always something tochallenge you these days and, as
a manager now of the unit,trying to best advise not just
my own colleagues but colleaguesaround the country is hard.
But, as I said, having thedialogue there is half the
(44:53):
battle.
If we're all talking to eachother, at least we all know what
we're dealing with.
So that's going to be thechallenge this year is when we
meet again later in the year tocome together and see how other
states are doing it and howoverseas is doing it.
So, yes, if anyone out therehas got good ideas on how to
deal with these type ofincidents from a fire
investigation perspective,please get in touch with me,
because I'll listen to anyone.
Because, yeah, we're stilldeveloping all these procedures,
(45:14):
and the police want to know now, because I think, unfortunately
, we're going to get morefatalities having these type of
devices.
So trying to set up processesnow is the challenge.
But yeah, it's still goodthough, so it's a very enjoyable
job.
Speaker 1 (45:27):
Yeah, I think the whole lithium battery thing is a
worldwide thing.
Everyone's looking at UK.
I know Danish are doing a lotof research into it Obviously US
and I uk I know danish doing alot of research into it
obviously us and mentioned thenew york fire department.
They've obviously got a highpopulation area with lots of
those e-bikes, that kind ofstuff.
So, and london fire brigade aswell, obviously.
But yeah, the more research,the wider it goes and the better
(45:48):
.
And also I think it's reallyimportant that, where possible,
I'm known as some private firmsand there's some commercial
interest, because whoever solvesit is going to be wealthy.
But I think it's reallyimportant, just from acute, as
you said, community safety wiseand preventing fatalities, it's
really important to share asmuch information around it as we
can.
But yeah, it's difficult to seeif it's cause or effect.
I think no one's really come upwith that solution yet either,
(46:10):
so it'd be interesting to seehow that develops.
Anyway, mick, thanks ever somuch.
I really appreciate your time.
As I've said to all the guests,without the guests there would
be no podcast because I wouldn'tjust sit here for an hour
talking to myself, although Ihave done in the past.
Thanks so much.
I think it just shows today.
I think I can see why you'rethe president.
I can see why you're on thefilm group because your passion
comes across.
Really appreciate your time.
(46:39):
Thanks, mike, don't worry to me, cheers.
Hey, thank you for listening tocsi on fire.
Please don't forget to like,subscribe and suggest future
topics on our webpage.
Remember factor non-verbal,take care, good hunting.
I hope to see you on the nextone, cheers.
Hi, welcome to CSI on Fire, the podcast that takes
you behind the scenes of thefire investigation community.
I'm your host, Mike Moulden,and episode after episode, we'll
attempt to excavate the oftendifficult but always fascinating
world of the fire investigator.
Welcome to CSI on Fire, theFire Investigation Podcast.
(00:27):
I've got a fantastic guest fromdown under today.
I've got Michael Forbes on thepodcast.
Mike, you know I don'tintroduce the guests, I let them
introduce themselves, so pleasego ahead, tell us your
background, where you come fromand why you're on the podcast
today.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Well g'day, mike, and g'day to your listeners, listen
.
Thanks a lot for inviting me onyour podcast.
Yeah, my name is Michael Forbes.
Well g'day, mike, and g'day toyour listeners, listen.
Thanks a lot for inviting me onyour podcast.
Yeah, my name is Michael Forbes.
I've been a firefighter for 30years with Fire Rescue New South
Wales and I've been in the FireInvestigation and Research Unit
since 2007.
Obviously I've been a careerfirefighter and I sort of looked
(01:01):
at fire investigation well Iguess from the start.
I came out of the college and Iwas just being a firefighter
for a number of years and then Ilooked at doing our
communication section.
So I did a few years at ourcomm centre taking the triple
zero calls which is the 999 inthe UK but our emergency phone
in our comm centre anddispatching fire appliances to
(01:21):
incidents.
I did that for about four years.
I then went over to a hazmatunit.
So I was a hazmat technician atFire Rescue for a couple of
years and that's when I gotpromoted to station officer and
as a station officer you movearound when you start off.
So I moved all over Sydneyleaving, and then I got a
permanent station, but then Iwas still interested in hazmat,
went back to the hazmat unit asa station officer and when I was
(01:45):
there the fire investigationunit was actually next door and
I got to know the fireinvestigators.
So I started doing a couple ofride-alongs with them and I
looked at it and went, wow, thisis very interesting, like a big
jigsaw puzzle and something youcan sort of get your teeth into
and try and work out whatexactly happened.
That really spruced my interestand I did a graduate
certificate in fireinvestigation at Charles Sturt
(02:07):
University in Australia and dida 12-month grad cert course.
I managed to complete that justas an advertisement came up for
a position at the FireInvestigation Research Unit,
fiau we call it.
I was successful in gettingthat position.
So that was in october 2007 whenI first started in in the fire
(02:28):
unit.
So I started doing fires.
We have a process where we justride along or mentors.
A guy mentors you for a monthor two and then you're on your
own.
Those first six months to ayear was really eye-opening.
It was quite difficult hard towork out what was going on.
I was sort of looking at otherstation officers saying what do
you think?
And they would say oh, I don'tknow you're the expert.
(02:49):
I was like well, yes, but no.
So that first year or two wasreally hard, I thought.
But interesting still, and oneof the previous legends of Billy
Powell sort of said to me youknow, it takes about seven years
to learn how to be a fireinvestigator.
I was like seven years really,but yeah, it took quite a few
years and I thought it was aboutthat three or fourth year I
sort of really understood whatwas going on.
(03:10):
I stayed in the unit.
I just really enjoyed the unit.
I really enjoyed fireinvestigation.
I did about 14 years as a fireinvestigator and then I was
moved through the ranks againand I wanted to get promoted
And've moved over to the fireresearch team in 2021.
So I was doing a couple ofyears there and then got
promoted to the inspector leveland just recently, in the last
(03:31):
12 months, I've been acting upinto the manager's role, sort of
an acting superintendent.
So now I'm running the unit,which, again, I really enjoy,
because there are three parts orthree streams to the FIRU Fire
Investigation Research Unit.
We have a fire investigationteam, so we have four fire
investigators on call 24-7covering the whole state, which
is a pretty big state of 8million people, only four
(03:53):
investigators.
And then we have a canine team.
So we have the three nightableliquid detection canines in the
southern hemisphere.
They're a great, great toolthat we use.
And then we have a fireresearch team.
We have two civilians and twooperational firefighters in that
team as well.
Managing a small team is reallygood.
They're really good people interms of.
They're all really committedand really passionate about what
(04:13):
they do.
It makes my job as the managerquite easy in the sense that you
don't have to worry about them.
They're doing really reallygood work.
We run about 180 to 200incidents on the fire
investigation site a year aboutthat 200, 220 incidents for the
canines that attend so thecanines also.
We have two fire services in NewSouth Wales.
We have the rural fire servicethat look after the majority of
(04:36):
the land, so probably about 80%85% of the land in New South
Wales, and then fire rescuelooks after about 10% or 15% of
the land size, but we look after80%, probably more, 90% of the
population in those metropolitantowns.
We've got full-timefirefighters, retained
firefighters, so all up aboutnearly 7,000 firefighters, both
(04:57):
retained and permanent, and it'sthe biggest fire service in the
country.
I've been sort of lucky in thatsense because we're in the
biggest city.
There's about 6 million peoplein the city, so it's quite a
large area.
We have over 100 fire stations,so we get a lot of fires.
And I've been very lucky as afire investigator to get exposed
to a wide variety of jobs overthe time I was doing fire
(05:19):
investigation.
That's basically been my careerat this stage so far.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Yeah, great summary.
So how does it work inAustralia?
Is it any different?
I know that just offline wewere talking about you attending
coroner's court and that sortof stuff.
Who has the sort of?
Is it fire serviceresponsibility to prosecute and
investigate, or how does it work?
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Yeah, so in New South Wales, again, there's different
jurisdictions in the country.
Each state has its own sort offire service and there's no
national sort of fire service.
So New South Wales Policeessentially investigate fires.
What does Fire Rescue do?
We just provide that opinioninto the origin and cause.
As a fire investigator, when afire occurs, the reporting
(05:57):
officer, the first arrivingofficer at that scene, takes
charge of that scene.
They have responsibility toextinguish, to make safe and
then obviously do an initialorigin and cause investigation
into the fire.
Now, if they can't work it out,they then call us and we can
then provide assistance, eitherby the phone, video conferencing
or we can actually attend.
Because there's only twoon-call fire investigators 24-7,
(06:20):
.
It makes it a bit hard.
The distances we have to go, sofrom east to west, from Sydney
to our western border, can takeyou 10-12 hours drive.
To the north it takes abouteight hours and to the south
about six hours from Sydney.
It's a big area that we cover.
Getting to those regional areascan take a bit of time.
If they suspect a crime hasoccurred or we don't know, then
(06:41):
New South Wales Police will takecontrol of the site and they
will declare a crime scene, thentheir crime scene officers will
then come in and investigatethe fire with us.
Generally we have to have acrime scene officer standing
next to us when we investigatethe fire because they are
legislated under the Crimes Actto move or remove any evidence
and seize evidence.
(07:01):
We again are invited in fromthem.
So they have to be signed off,so they have to be fire
investigators themselves.
So New South Wales crime scenethey have about 110, 120 crime
scene officers that are firetrained.
Obviously we've only got four.
They obviously rely heavily onus because all we do is fire.
Yet crime scene officers in NewSouth Wales Police they do
(07:23):
everything.
They have to be signed off formurders, for sexual assaults,
for shootings, stuff like thatand fire.
We find that when we wereturning up to these scenes they
looked to us for that expertiseand then New South Wales Police
detectives they run the job.
So they're officer in charge ofan incident or a fire in their
area.
So they will obviously look tous again saying give us your
(07:43):
opinion.
So a statement If it's asignificant fire and unknown, so
it goes to the coroner.
So all those fires arereportable to the New South
Wales coroner.
But yeah, if it's criminal,then obviously they sort of
write up a brief of evidence andthe brief of evidence then is
given to the prosecutors, theOffice of the Director of Public
Prosecutions in New South Wales, and then it's then prosecuted
(08:05):
through the criminal justicesystem.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Gotcha, gotcha, okay, fantastic.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Other states is a little bit different.
Victoria is a little bitdifferent.
Police will do everything downthere and essentially if it's a
deliberate fire, in Victoria thefire investigators aren't
allowed to actually come in tothe scene.
They won't let them in, whichis a bit of a shame.
In WA the Police Arson Unit dothe crime scene as well.
The detectives actually do thecrime scene as well.
(08:29):
So little states have justtheir slight little variations.
But each state in fire servicehas a fire investigation unit.
We sort of come together aswell and that's the other thing
that I do is there's AFAC, whichis the Australasian Fire
Authority Council.
For any service, any publicagency that has a fire
investigation service, sits on afire investigation network.
(08:51):
So it's called the FIN Groupand I'm chair of that as well.
So we come together once a year.
We have this obviously a greatnetwork where fires coming up,
this type of fire, or theybounce ideas off things.
Big problem at the moment islithium ion batteries.
So the Finn group is actually,you know, talking to each other
about how we're dealing withlithium ion batteries.
(09:12):
We've had the first fewfatalities now in this country,
lithium ion batteries.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
So that's where the network really comes in handy so
that we can all talk to eachother, to be able to say what
are you doing, how are you guysdoing it, and stuff like that
talk to each other to be able tosay what are you doing, how are
you guys doing, and stuff likethat Very similar to UK in terms
of fatalities happening viasort of lithium batteries and
e-scooter bikes and that kind ofstuff.
How does it work?
Because I know you're a littlebit unique and separate to UK
not that separate to America,but Australian Federal Police
(09:38):
have you got involved with themor how's that work?
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Australian Federal Police.
Their jurisdiction is in theACT, which is the Australian
Capital Territory.
It's its own sort ofjurisdiction.
It's actually inside New SouthWales where the nation's capital
is, which is the city ofCanberra.
So they obviously are the crimescene officers for Canberra and
the ACT and there is a fireservice it's the ACT Fire Rescue
(10:05):
inside Canberra.
So again they have a small fireinvestigation unit.
So they will do the crime sceneanalysis and all that stuff.
But there are sort of times whenthey will deploy.
For example we had on ChristmasIsland.
They had a whole big fires,bunch of fires over there.
So the AFP forensics deployedto Christmas Island, which is an
island off the northwest ofAustralia where they do
(10:25):
immigration, detention and stufflike that.
They have the ability.
And also we have in the Pacificareas.
There was a number of fires inthe Solomon Islands or in
Vanuatu.
So the AFP forensics deployedto those countries to assist
their country.
They invited them in to assistin some of the fires that were
happening over there, somearsons and stuff like that.
(10:47):
They are, I guess, the nationalrepresentative when a crime
occurs.
I know that the AFP, forexample, deployed to the MH17
air disaster.
I know it wasn't a fire, butcertainly the DBI and assisting
in crime scenes and stuff theydeployed over there.
So we do work with them.
They have their own fireinvestigation course.
We sort of teach on thosecourses and provide advice and
(11:08):
stuff like that.
So again they're part of thenetwork around the country and
we train together, attendworkshops together, conferences
and things like that.
So we see them all the time.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Good.
You kind of sound like you'rewell-joined up in communication
and that's all good.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Yeah, and that's the big thing around fire
investigation.
I've heard all your guestspreviously about what it means
to be a fire investigator.
Is certainly to us is thenetworking, and your 1033
document says you've got to keepyour education up and as part
of that education we're a littlebit of the poor cousins in
Australia.
I keep telling my bosses thatfor us in Australia it's really
hard to get fire investigationtraining because it's all
(11:49):
overseas.
I've been lucky to be able togo overseas a few times to get
that training because you haveto do this yourself.
You can't sit back and justwait for the training to come to
you.
And I guess what I've tried todo over the years is provide
opportunities for training andI'm also president of the New
South Wales Association of FireInvestigators.
(12:10):
That's chapter 47 of the IAAI,and we have done over the years
is bring courses from the IAAIover here.
We've done the motor vehiclefire investigation course twice
now to bring it to Australia,and this year we're planning on
bringing the 40-hourfundamentals fire investigation
course to Australia, to Sydney,actually in October, and that's,
(12:31):
I guess, what I feel is lackingin Australia.
Is that real, that introductoryfire course, Rather than doing
it online in a computer.
You know we're going to set upfire cells at our facility.
We can do some burns.
And you know we're going to setup fire cells at our facility.
We can do some burns and, youknow, offer a course that new
investigators and evenexperienced investigators can
come in refresh their skills,because there's just nothing
(12:53):
like that in this country wherea fire investigator, whether
they're new or experienced, canactually go into a burnt cell
that we know exactly what'shappened and actually pull it
apart, get your hands dirty andthen sort of see the video at
the end.
I know we have our own trainingin Fire Rescue New South Wales.
We train our station officersand we changed the way we train
our station officers about threeyears ago 2020, where they came
(13:17):
to me and said we want tochange it.
Now we want to make itface-to-face and, as it was just
online, the station officersare doing their fire
investigation training.
So, as it was just online, thestation officers are doing their
fire investigation training.
So I said, listen, if we'regoing to do it, we're going to
do it properly.
So we've got this facility thatwe can do test burns in
northwest Sydney and I set afire out there and now the
station officers.
I give them two days of theoryand then the third day we go out
(13:37):
and they go out and investigatea scene and then they come back
and they write up their opinionand it's actually happening
this week.
On Tuesday They've done thetraining last week and Tuesday
they actually come in and I givethem a mock court and I'm like
the judge and the defence andthe prosecution all at once and
we put them under pressure andwe actually give them some hard
questions.
Words matter, so tell us whatare you actually saying and
(13:59):
definitions and things like that, and that gives us a taste of
what we do at FIAU as a fireinvestigator.
But these are the people thatare going to the scenes, those
first responders that areattending, and they just need to
be upskilled and they justhaven't had that in the past and
the last three or four yearswe've trained the 200 officers
now within fire risk in NewSouth Wales to be actually
really upskill, a component andthen utilize what FIAU is, which
(14:22):
is assisting frontlinefirefighters in their origin and
cause determination.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Yeah, brilliant, Brilliant.
I think there's nothing toreplace.
I mean, we've got some riversoftware at the North Arab
University and stuff, butthere's nothing really to
replace having a live burn andthen digging out afterwards and
you just can't replace that.
And I think the mock courtthing is fantastic because it
does allow you to make mistakesin that kind of safe environment
and I always think you takemuch more out of the things that
(14:49):
you've missed or the thingsthat have been pointed out in
peer checking, review and stuff.
You go and you never forgetthose sorts of things.
We were just chatting offlineabout how we came to be
discussing and I didn't actuallyfind you through the New South
Wales Association.
Well, I did in a way, but Ifound you via the YouTube
channel because I just searchedup fire investigation and it's
part of that.
Some really good stuff on thereand I know you're president and
(15:12):
some really good stuff on there.
I'm going to give him a shoutbecause I think it's a real
fundamental.
It's Tim Ryan.
And just tell us what Tim Ryancame on and did for you and some
of the other online coursesthat you've got or online
seminars that you've got there.
Mick.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Yes, I've been president there for 10 years.
I've been a member since 2007.
But I guess when I becamepresident, our big thing is
around education, just providingthose opportunities and it's
really hard, as I said, but wegenerally have an education
night once every second month,so probably five or six a year.
We offer and we just try andget different people on and just
get them to talk about it.
(15:45):
It's roughly in the fireinvestigation industry.
Sometimes it's not.
We also have relationships withthe Australian New Zealand
Forensic Science Society.
We share their education nightsand they share ours.
We get some people from ANSPIScoming on and whoever's
interesting talk we get them on.
So Tim's a firefighter.
He's been there 20 years pluscareer and he was in our
(16:07):
firefighter training team.
So he was teaching recruits allthe basics around fire behavior
, fire dynamics.
Obviously we'd seen that at ouracademy and stuff like that.
I was told by a friend.
I said you should get him onbecause he really explains it.
And when I did see it in theclassroom I said yeah, actually
that's pretty good.
So I just said that to him.
I said listen, why don't youcome on and talk about what you
(16:28):
talk about, which is just thebasics of fire and basics of
fire dynamics and how it allworks, when you know inside a
compartment and stuff like that.
And this is pre-COVID,pre-covid.
We used to just start recordingour education nights, mainly
because we've got about 160members or so but, it's very
hard for them to get into Sydneyand be in Sydney and see these
education nights, because wewere doing it face-to-face.
(16:50):
This was all pre-COVID stuff.
We didn't know what Zoom was,so we'd record it and then we'd
just create our own YouTubechannel and just put them on
there just so that other peoplecan see them.
He did one and then we actuallytook off.
It's the biggest one we've hadand I can't remember how many
views it is, but it's like over10,000 views or something.
I think it's so popular becauseit's nice and simple and he
just breaks it down and he talksreally well, nice and clear and
(17:13):
concise, and just makes iteasier for the viewer to
understand.
And every time I do something,he sort of comes up to me and
says how's my YouTube site going?
Is it still the first?
Speaker 1 (17:29):
I'll have to share this podcast with him now, you
know, make him feel real good,his is really good and the whole
education thing is fantastic,and that's basically what it's
all about really today and foryour YouTube channel.
But I think, just taking itfrom that very basics one, which
he does fantastically well andit's the first one I came across
, I'll be honest with you, I'vewatched it several times just to
get it into the brain, butyou've taken it right up to
(17:52):
modern day.
The last one I watched yourswas by ev fire safe, which takes
us right up to date with kindof lithium batteries and stuff.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
So that's obviously an emerging problem yeah, yeah,
obviously we've got like everyother fire service in the world.
We're dealing with more andmore of these incidents, even
though it hasn't really got intomotor vehicles or EV vehicles.
We've only had six confirmed EVbuyers in Australia, which is a
very small number compared to,say, the US, but there's only
(18:19):
about 180,000 EV vehicles, fullEV vehicles, in this country.
And, yeah, EV FireSafe are sortof becoming a little bit bigger
and well-known in the EV sortof space.
And yeah, again, one of mycommittee members sort of
suggested let's get MRs.
We found from that.
It was like oh great, Actuallywe had an EV fire in New South
(18:40):
Wales where something fell offthe back of the truck, went
under the Tesla and ripped thebattery right through, went into
a thermal runaway on thehighway, one of the main
highways in New South Wales.
Anyway, that vehicle got toweddown to Tesla in Melbourne.
They were able to actually pullit apart and that's something
that obviously fireinvestigators are very
interested in and we said comeon in and they'd only just sort
(19:01):
of finished that sort ofinvestigation and they were able
to talk about it.
So it was really good timing forus.
But it was really good to beable to see it because, again,
it's an emerging issue.
But for fire investigators,what I want them to do is to try
and talk about the safety whenwe're investigating these type
of fires, because there are alot more risks around
investigating these type ofdevices or vehicles.
(19:22):
Yeah, that's a big thing aswell that everyone should be
thinking about all the time, andCyra was really really good.
So, yeah, we got a lot ofpeople interested in that
because she's very popular onLinkedIn and things like that,
so people get to see it.
So it was good.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
I think what I really liked about that one was that
when they placed the actualpiece of debris that caused the
damage and they kind of youcould physically put it back
into where the damage was, andthat was basic, kind of real
forensic, kind of just realobservational putting things
back like a jigsaw.
Oh, okay, that literally fitsin there.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
So that was fantastic .
Yeah, and that's the same at afire scene, isn't it Like you go
there and you find the deviceand you just go oh, this is what
it is.
Sometimes you reconstruct andyou see a piece that's missing
and you go hang on.
I think I know where that camefrom.
It is that jigsaw puzzle, whichis what we're all trying to do,
isn't it?
We're all trying to solve thatpuzzle.
It doesn't happen every time,but when it does, man, you feel
good, yeah, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Let's move on to.
I know you talked about theassociation and the chapter, et
cetera.
I know you've got somethingcoming up in October.
Do you just want to I'm notsure call out for papers and
stuff?
So just brief us about that,mate.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Yeah for sure, new South Wales AFI is hosting the
next Australasian Association ofFire and Investigation
Conference.
So it's a double AFI.
So there are four chapters thatmake up the Australasian.
So there's Queensland, newSouth Wales, victoria and New
Zealand, and every two years wecome together to do our
conference.
So it was in 2022, it was inQueensland, so this year we're
(20:50):
hosting it.
We last hosted it in 2016.
So, yeah, we're calling out for,uh, people to give us an
abstract.
It's going to be in october, so21st and 22nd of october, and
then we're actually having afield today.
So we're actually asking forpeople around that.
Lithium ion batteries and fireinvestigation is the theme.
We've got cameron novak comingout from the us, so he's a
electrical engineer with the atf, so he's going to come out and
(21:11):
give like an electricaldemonstration.
So we're going to burn somedevices, some common devices
here in Australia, electricaldevices and we're going to sort
of have them burnt, and thenhe's going to give like a
demonstration on how well youknow the points to look for in a
fire investigation, how to pullthings apart, what to look for.
But we're also going to have awildfire component.
So a big part of ourassociation is RFS members.
(21:34):
That's obviously their interest, which is wildfires.
So we've got one of the biggestexperts in the country, richard
Woods.
He's going to come up.
He's from Canberra, so he'sgoing to come up and we've got
an area in our facility as well,our Llanderry Fire Research
Facility.
That's all grass and bush.
So we're going to set somefires prior to the conference.
People that are interested onthat, they can go over to the
(21:55):
wildfire section and richardwill walk you through a number
of small little fires that we'regoing to set.
So he's going to have like atheory component, obviously
within the conference, and thenon the practical side on the
wednesday he's going to be outthere in the field.
We're going to have peopletrying to flag the wildfires,
trying to work out where theorigin is, see if they can see
any ignition sources, thingslike that.
And also, because we're doingthe 40-hour the week before part
(22:19):
of the conference, the cellsfrom that will still be there.
So you can walk through thecells.
You can go to the electricalside with Cameron or you can go
to the Wi-Fi side with Richard.
So that practical day, thatinfield day, will give you a few
options to walk around.
So we did the same sort of thingin 2016 when we had Steve
Parman come out here.
He did a practical sort of burnabout his thing, which is
(22:39):
ventilation and elevated origins.
That worked really well.
So that's what we're trying tocontinue that thing.
Get out into the actual fieldwith your colleagues and come
down and have a bit of fun there.
So that's three days the 21st,22nd and 23rd of October.
It's going to be held inWestern Sydney Western Sydney
Conference Centre, which is anice brand-new facility, and,
(22:59):
yeah, come on down under andyou'll get to see it all happen
down there.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Brilliant, fantastic.
I actually had Richard Woods on.
He's not come out yet, but wehad him.
Roderick Jones and Rich came on.
It's the first ever time thatwe had three on a podcast, if
that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Some fascinating investigative techniques and
kind of dispelling some mythsaround signal, alerts and stuff.
Yeah, fantastic, veryexperienced, and that training
is his thing and he trains a lot, especially overseas, around
Wi-Fi.
So we get to use him for ourconference, which will be great,
fantastic.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Let's move on.
I'll put all these dates and ifyou've got any links and stuff,
we'll put them all on thepodcast notes.
If that's okay, let's move onto.
Probably might start toembarrass you now, but I know
that you're the IWI Investigatorof the Year in 2023.
Just talk us through that whathappened there, and take us
through the case if you can.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
Well, it was a big surprise.
Sunday I got a phone call fromRose, who's an IAAI Director in
charge of the wards.
I'm like, oh, by the way,you've just won the Investigator
of the Year.
I said for what I didn't evenknow.
I was nominated A friend ofmine, ross Brogan, who is one of
the legends in New South Wales.
He was one of the originalmembers of the Fire
Investigation Unit when it wasformed in 1987.
(24:06):
He was the first FireInvestigator there.
Ex-new South Wales AFI memberas well, long-time friend.
He nominated me just quietlybecause I was involved in this
case and he was also involved inthe case and did a review of my
statement for the prosecution.
So this case I call it sort ofwoman on fire and it's a case
that came to me in 2015.
(24:27):
So the incident occurred in2013 and I didn't actually
attend the incident, but it wasbefore and the coroner actually
said have you got an expert inthe origin and cause of the fire
?
And the police went, no, no, wehaven't.
They rang the arson unit andthe arson unit said ring Forbesy
.
So they rang me.
So they came down and gave methe brief and when I read the
brief I sort of said well, thiswoman was found fully engulfed
(24:54):
in flames walking down herdriveway with her husband behind
her trying to power the fire.
And when I went to brief, Isort of said, well, I think if
we're going to do this, we'regoing to have to set someone on
fire.
And so I said that's my boss.
And he went what?
and then I said it to the policeand they went what but then I
sat down so this, we just get astunt person and stunt woman,
stunt man and we can just do itthat way and get some mannequins
and things like that.
And then once they thoughtabout it, they went, okay, let's
(25:15):
do it.
The facility that we use it'sgood for these type of things.
We can sort of do what we want.
And so I went out to the siteand I measured it and then I put
that on the ground and measuredthe distances and we managed to
get a stuntwoman and she had ateam of four or three other
colleagues and her and they werein charge of sort of their
safety and we're just obviouslyobserving.
(25:37):
We had a whole bunch ofmannequins, so we had 14 sets of
clothes and we tried to sort ofdo numerous test burns or
demonstrations to be able toshow what is possible.
You know she was covered inpetrol Top.
She showed that she had 95%burns, but the only part of the
body that wasn't burnt was herhead and the bottoms of her feet
.
So my role or my aim of thetesting was to try to replicate
(26:03):
her burns, that is, to be ableto show how does a body totally
burn in terms of all, the arms,legs, torso, back but the head
does not.
So that was the only way.
I just couldn't sort of in myhead like I have to do some
tests.
So we started doing some testsjust with, firstly without
petrol, just the clothing, tosee how that burned, then with
(26:24):
petrol, and then we just trieddifferent levels of petrol.
Now they were in charge of hersafety, so they were the ones
sort of pouring petrol on herand then igniting it.
But what we sort of saw wasthat as soon as you pour the
petrol on the body, especiallysort of on the torso, and you
ignite it, the flash fire occursand you can see that and she
(26:44):
starts pushing through toprotect the head.
But once ignition occurs andyou start walking, the head is
protected.
So then we start thinking well,okay, so she's going to be
walking for that head to beprotected.
But when you pour and obviouslywith petrol petrol is very
ignitable.
It's an ignitable liquid butit's very volatile because its
flashpoint is so low.
(27:05):
As soon as you open thatcontainer the vapours are coming
off.
The vapours are coming off, sothose lighter components of the
petrol comes off and you're leftwith the heavy components.
Now, when you pour it onto theclothing, the liquid stays there
.
Now there was a period of time.
She called triple zero, whichis the emergency number, 13
(27:27):
minutes prior to the policearriving, so there was a
13-minute period.
She rang triple zero, she saidphone call.
She said my husband just triedto kill me.
13 minutes later, new SouthWales Police arrived at the
scene and she was on fire on theNature Street, which is the
front porch or the front part ofthe road right next to the road
.
So that 13 minutes something'shappened and then there's
(27:48):
witnesses to see her walkingdown a driveway totally on fire,
trying to work out whathappened.
Because of that, 13 minutesafter we'd done a few tests, I
thought well, what happens if wepour the petrol and then wait
and allow vaporisation to occur?
Because the petrol can wasfound in the laundry but it had
(28:09):
the lid on and it had beenplaced in their cupboard and the
doors were closed, so there wasstill petrol in it.
So there was a time that hadthe pouring and there was petrol
on the tiles.
There was petrol on theselittle rubber carpet mats.
Her fingerprints were on thecontainer.
I knew that there wasvaporisation must have something
to do with this.
When we did that test, when wepoured and we waited, and there
(28:34):
was a lighter found in thelaundry as well with no DNA and
no fingerprints in it as wellwhen we did that test, the fire
is very small.
It only starts out small.
Now, if you start walking witha small fire, the fire will
spread because it's still in thegarments, it's still producing
vapours and now it's spreadingbecause of the walking.
(28:55):
But the head is critical.
So that's how I came up with myopinion.
My opinion was that it was apouring time of period of
vapourisation, then ignitionoccurred and then we did a
number of tests where on thecrime scene there was bits of
clothing that we had come off,and it took about 20 seconds
before clothing came off.
So in that time, walking fromthe laundry to the corner of the
(29:18):
house where the first bit ofdebris was found was about that
20-second mark.
So that's how I came up with myopinion.
I wrote my opinion and I was inthe coroner's court two weeks
later giving that opinion and itwas just about origin and cause
for me.
My role wasn't to say who litthe fire, it was just about
origin and cause.
I wrote that opinion for thecoroner.
(29:40):
So then two years later thiswas in 2015.
So in 2017, the coroner shutdown.
After that I gave my opinion inthe coroner's court.
They shut down the inquest andthey gave it to the DPP
recommending charges I don'tknow.
But then the DPP considered itand it took them two years.
And then the DPP considered itand it took them two years and
then the DPP came back andcharged the husband with murder.
(30:00):
Now I again wrote an opinionfor a coroner's court.
Now it's in a criminal court.
It was quite different.
And then two years later, wehad a murder trial.
So I'm off to the murder trial.
The week before the murder trial, the Crown Prosecutor brought
me into the office and saidMichael, thank you for your
testing.
It was really, really good, butwe're not going to use it.
And I'm like what, how?
(30:22):
That's how I got my opinion.
He goes yes, well, the testing.
It's too risky because therewas a previous trial in New
South Wales where a professordid some testing for again
another murder trial and in theCriminal Court of Appeal in New
South Wales it was thrown outbecause that professor was not
(30:42):
an expert in that area.
He should not have done thosetype of tests.
It shouldn't have been allowed.
But I said I'm an expert in fire, I'm doing fire investigation,
I'm doing fire tests.
This is my experts lane.
You know I'm in my lane andthey said I'm not gonna use it.
I said how are you gonna get it, because I would never have got
that opinion if I had not doneit.
Oh, we're not going to use it.
I said how are you going to getit, because I would never have
got that opinion if I had notdone it.
Oh, we're going to do a usualknowledge training experience,
michael, and we'll get theopinion out of that.
I'm like very frustrated.
(31:03):
The defence was allowed to usemy report, though.
They definitely used my reportand they can do that.
Anyway, trial happens and it'sa hung jury.
Now we're now in COVID, so thesecond trial was in 2021.
And a second trial, again thesame thing.
They wouldn't use the testingand it come back and he was
acquitted and that's fine and itdoesn't really worry me about
(31:26):
the result.
I just wanted to get thattesting in admissible in court
because I've done so much work,but it was too prejudicial to
the accused.
So what I do now and that's onething I've done over many years
is I like, if I don't knowwhat's happened, I want to be
able to do some testing aroundit or some demonstrations, and
we've got the facility to do it.
So we do it and I try todemonstrate what's possible and
(31:50):
what's not possible.
I get a better understandingbecause I find that with FIRE I
think you know what's going tohappen.
Until you actually do ademonstration you go oh, I
wasn't expecting that, becauseof a lot of variables involved
and it's very, very hard to getreplicate exactly what happened
at a scene.
It's not really like researchor it's not really a test or
replication of what you're doing.
(32:11):
It's more just a demonstrationof what's possible.
You try and relay that to the.
So what we do now is, if policecome to us with these type of
incidents, I come up with a testschedule or a demonstration
schedule and I send it back tothe police and I say get your
legal, your prosecutors, to havea look at the schedule and get
them to sort of approve it sothat it has the best chance of
(32:34):
being made admissible in a court.
And I've got another casecoming up next month where the
same thing happened in SouthAustralia, a similar case, and
they were an expert.
I said, listen, let's do somedemonstrations.
We did some demonstrations andit's another murder trial and
I'm in court next month for that.
So hopefully that one I believeit will be a missile in court.
(32:55):
All the testing we did andthat's another case study.
Once it's all finished out,hopefully I'll publish it
somewhere in the IAAI journal.
But yeah, very interesting.
But I'm a real big believer intrying to produce testing around
fire and demonstrating what'spossible and what's not possible
, because that's where you learnthe most.
As we say, you've got to burnto learn.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Yeah, nice, I like that.
I'm gonna nick that, that's forsure.
I think we were just chattingoffline and I think we suffer as
well in the fire investigationworld from the csi effect as
well.
What's called the csi effect.
It often takes sort of videoevidence sometimes or
demonstrations, as you said, orpracticals to actually show
what's happening, because thereis a perception that it's the
(33:35):
old cigarette in ignitableliquid kind of mentality and
that's what jurors see on thefilms and they watch backdraft
and these sorts of things andthe perception is backdraft,
whether you can see all theactors that smoke etc, etc.
I think it's really reallyimportant and, as I said, we
were just chatting offline Ishowed the senior investigating
officer a couple of videos andthat completely kind of awakened
(33:57):
that person to the realities ofwhat I was not very well trying
to describe can be shownthrough a series of tests and
that sort of penny drops.
I think it's absolutelyfantastic that you're doing that
kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
And I've had that exact same case as well.
So again we turned up to ahouse fire.
There's petrol all through thejoint.
The owner comes out and sayslisten, I was just carrying my
petrol containers through thehouse.
They were full and some petrolcame out.
I had a cigarette and itdropped from the ground and just
started.
I went hey, let's do that.
(34:29):
So, I went out to our Londondairy site and I got the petrol
and I shaked it around on thecarpet and I lit a cigarette and
I threw it on the ground and itdoesn't happen.
So yeah, you've got to actuallyshow these things what's
possible and what's not possible.
Firstly, understand it foryourself, but then try and tell
others.
Tell the other story, like,tell the police and then,
obviously, a court.
(34:49):
You've really got to burn tolearn even FIs.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
I think FIs have some .
We you know, in the pastthere's been some misconceptions
, some myths.
John Lentini does a lot of workon the myths of fire
investigation, I think.
But we are all subject to ourcognitive bias.
You know, I remember watchingBackdraft whenever that came out
.
I don't care to remember a fewyears ago.
When you watch that stuff, thatis whether you like it,
consciously or unconsciously,that is in the back and you've
(35:14):
got to unlearn those sorts ofmisconceptions, I think.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Yeah, that's what I teach.
When I teach in my life, Iteach this as well.
There are a lot of myths outthere and the books that are out
there are there to read so thatyou can sort of educate
yourself to try and understandif they are a myth or not, and
if you're still unsure, do thetest yourself.
We're privileged in the sensethat we do have a facility here
(35:41):
in New South Wales to do thattype of testing, but as a fire
service, there should be someplace somewhere where you can
actually conduct some type ofsmall tests and stuff like burn
things, because we are a fireservice.
If you've got a fire service,there's surely somewhere you can
burn, but you get out there anddo it, because that is where
the most learnings occur.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
Absolutely yeah, and I think there's an advocate in
large-scale tests or anythingbut in the back garden, in a
cleared area, you know, fivemetres from the back,
non-flambeau items.
I've done some tests in theback of my garden type thing,
just on a small scale, to justget that concept and see if I'm
thinking, if what I'm thinkingis right.
Or nine times out of ten it'sactually thinking.
I'm looking at something andsomething's saying to me that
(36:23):
just doesn't seem right.
The ventilation effects or justbuilding a little model or
doing some testing has alwaysworked for me anyway I've
actually done it at a scene.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
You've seen something burn like, hey, what is that?
You know, you just let's grabit from the scene and then take
it outside and then try and burnit or understand, should that
burn?
Can it burn?
What's a burn like?
Just do it from the scene andsee exactly why you're there
yeah, a little burn test on.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Like I had a big job actually and there was some
material that was a questionwhether it will burn or whether
it won't burn.
It's just getting a smallamount, see if, see if it's hey,
it's ignitable and it continuesto burn.
It's invaluable, really, okayfantastic.
I think we're doing really well,we're filling the time, but if
there's a top tip or trick or isthere one thing that you've
learned over the years to sortof pass on to the fire
(37:09):
investigation community, whetheryou're a student or whether
you've been doing it for 30years?
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Yeah, I've heard this through your podcast.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
It's a good tip so I've been thinking about it.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
But yeah, I always say I can read 921 to about four
years doing this job, and whatI tell fine risk guys now is
read it day one, day one.
Just sit down and start readingNFPA 921, because essentially
your whole job is in that book,everything that you need to do.
And I attended a very largeexplosion in Roselle in Sydney
(37:39):
in 2014.
It's the 10th anniversary thisyear, actually and I turned up
and it was a massive explosionand then fire.
Three people were died and itwas a full collapse two-level
building and I turned up therehad no idea what to do.
It was the biggest thing I hadever seen seen and took eight
hours probably 10 hours beforewe got the bodies out.
And then we had to work out.
(38:00):
We actually had to demolishanother building, like a whole
two-level corner building, toget to the scene.
So those negotiations withpolice took six days before we
could actually get into thescene and then we had to
excavate the scene for threedays.
So that's a really big job.
And then we found a whole bunchof petrol through the joint and
the owner was charged.
(38:21):
It was another murder trial.
After the murder trial my firstmurder trial.
He was found guilty.
I spent 10 days at the scene.
And then I went back to theoffice and started to write up
my statement and stuff like thatand I'm thinking explosions,
you know like well, I should put.
921 says about explosions.
I read the explosions chapterand I went oh, I should have
done that.
Oh, I should have done that.
(38:41):
And I just realised bloody hell,I've got to keep reading.
I've got to keep reading more.
So my top tip is just read 921.
A lot of the answers to thequestions and a lot of processes
of how to do things.
It's just in there.
The answers are all there.
Yes, we're still going to belearning and there's still a
mountain that you don't know andyou won't ever know it all.
So you always continue to sortof understand that there's
(39:04):
always something more to learn.
But, yeah, the basics of fineinvestigations in that book and
you should know it and youshould read it.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
I think it's a common language as well.
If you read the book and you do, the terminology, it gives us
that Whether you're in Australiaor whether you're in South
America I interviewed RicardoTorres yesterday and it doesn't
matter where you are If you canget together and you can speak a
common language in terms offire, then you know I teach my
students I say you know, this isthe book.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
There's no Australian book book.
There's no uk book.
It's the nfba book.
We all use it and I know itsays it's a guide and and don't
have to use it.
But all the answers are there.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
Well, not all of them , but certainly when you're
starting out, that's going to beyour best reference to get your
understandings yeah, I think interms of the younger generation
that are coming behind us,they'll know nothing different
than 921 in the sense of.
In the UK when I first startedI think Roger Ide's book was
probably the prevalent one.
It's a little guidebook, verysmall.
We'd never even heard of 921 inthat sense.
(40:04):
So I think now if you look atIWAI, obviously they recommend a
separate entity, nafi, nationalAssociation of Fire Rescuiters
in the States.
They recommend it All the theworld obviously kind of work to
it.
So there's got to be something.
If everyone's saying use thisbook, there's got to be some
logic there.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
The court system in the US, you know, sees it as the
authoritative text and stufflike that.
And certainly in Australia weare a little bit behind that
sense that I would go up to Ispeak with prosecutors and I
speak with coroners and I say,have you ever heard of 921?
They go, no, never heard of it.
And you don't expect them toknow it.
We've got to teach them, we'vegot to upskill them the lawyers
(40:44):
about what is supposed to be,how it's supposed to be done.
You're always going to havesomeone on the other side who's
going to rubbish you.
You've got to show yourself asthe credible one and you're
following procedure and theterminology and things like that
.
So to do your best work, you'vegot to follow the way it should
be done and I think 921 does along way for that.
(41:05):
Yeah, certainly there's otherbooks out there and other ways
of doing it, but 921 should beyour basis of your knowledge.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
Yeah, definitely Brilliant.
Okay, of course, 1033 kind ofsets out what you should and
shouldn't know as well.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
Again, it's a standard for the US.
There's no standard here inAustralia.
But I try to sort of again USsort of leads, the way I would
say US fire investigationindustry is this big, which is
like very wide, and the fireinvestigation industry in
Australia is only about acentimetre wide.
That's a small industry here inthis country in Australia is
only about a centimetre wide.
(41:37):
That's a small industry here inthis country.
And 1033 is a great guide forfire investigators on how you
should be training yourself.
We use it at FireRisky.
We use that Wiles as anassessment tool for new fire
investigators.
So we essentially have achecklist which has come from
1033.
So it tells you that the JPRstell you that a fire
investigator should be doingthis, this and this at a scene.
(41:59):
So we put that in theassessment.
We give our new fireinvestigators some knowledge.
We do ride-alongs butessentially you're assessing
them on the process.
It's not about gettingaccidental or the deliberate
fire.
It's about the process.
Can you manage a scene fromstart to finish without anyone
coming in and telling you don'tforget about this, don't forget
about that.
(42:19):
You're not going to get fullyright all the time.
You're always going to forgetthings.
The process is what is beingassessed, and 1033 gives you
those processes of what our fireinvestigators should possess,
those JPRs.
So that's how we use it.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
Yeah, I mean, it's almost written for you.
You know why reinvent the wheelwhen it's already there?
So yeah, fantastic.
All right, mate.
Well, thanks, listen.
We're coming towards the end ofour time, unfortunately.
Is there anything else?
I'd just like to give a littlemop-up session.
Is there anything else thatwe've not discussed?
That you?
Fatality from lithium-ionbatteries in New South Wales.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
Queensland have had a couple and South Australia has
had a couple, so we've only hadfour incidents of fatalities.
It's a big issue, obviouslyfrom a community safety.
We are obviously banging onmessages around batteries,
especially your e-scooters,e-bikes.
If you damage them, if you muckaround them and try and adapt
them and things like that,they're very, very dangerous.
What I'm dealing with now atthe moment for us is just from a
(43:22):
fire investigations perspective.
I've got police calling mesaying what do I do with these
batteries?
They want to seize them andanalyse them, but they're so
dangerous you can't transportthem once they've been exposed
to fire.
So that's a contemporary, verybig contemporary issue for fire
investigators in Australia andNew Zealand at the moment.
I guess my message is we lookto overseas.
We certainly look to overseasUS and FDNY things like that
(43:45):
about guidance.
There's a lot of research in theoverseas as well.
We're trying to do our ownresearch program within fire
rescue.
It's called the SARET, which isthe Safety of Alternate
Renewable Energies TechnologiesResearch Program.
We're trying to do some testingin Australia.
We're using our London DairyFacility trying to do full EV
burns how sprinklers operatewhen EVs are in car parks,
(44:09):
things like that get a betterunderstanding for ourselves.
So we are in that space doingthat, but it's a very big issue
how do we do it?
The safety of doing it withfire investigators as well?
Who can actually analyse thesetype of devices as well?
These batteries, like who isactually qualified to pull apart
and actually say this batterycaused the fire?
(44:29):
Now that's really difficult.
I don't think there's anyoneout there that can actually do
that.
These are the challenges thatwe have at the moment.
So there's always something tochallenge you these days and, as
a manager now of the unit,trying to best advise not just
my own colleagues but colleaguesaround the country is hard.
But, as I said, having thedialogue there is half the
(44:53):
battle.
If we're all talking to eachother, at least we all know what
we're dealing with.
So that's going to be thechallenge this year is when we
meet again later in the year tocome together and see how other
states are doing it and howoverseas is doing it.
So, yes, if anyone out therehas got good ideas on how to
deal with these type ofincidents from a fire
investigation perspective,please get in touch with me,
because I'll listen to anyone.
Because, yeah, we're stilldeveloping all these procedures,
(45:14):
and the police want to know now, because I think, unfortunately
, we're going to get morefatalities having these type of
devices.
So trying to set up processesnow is the challenge.
But yeah, it's still goodthough, so it's a very enjoyable
job.
Speaker 1 (45:27):
Yeah, I think the whole lithium battery thing is a
worldwide thing.
Everyone's looking at UK.
I know Danish are doing a lotof research into it Obviously US
and I uk I know danish doing alot of research into it
obviously us and mentioned thenew york fire department.
They've obviously got a highpopulation area with lots of
those e-bikes, that kind ofstuff.
So, and london fire brigade aswell, obviously.
But yeah, the more research,the wider it goes and the better
(45:48):
.
And also I think it's reallyimportant that, where possible,
I'm known as some private firmsand there's some commercial
interest, because whoever solvesit is going to be wealthy.
But I think it's reallyimportant, just from acute, as
you said, community safety wiseand preventing fatalities, it's
really important to share asmuch information around it as we
can.
But yeah, it's difficult to seeif it's cause or effect.
I think no one's really come upwith that solution yet either,
(46:10):
so it'd be interesting to seehow that develops.
Anyway, mick, thanks ever somuch.
I really appreciate your time.
As I've said to all the guests,without the guests there would
be no podcast because I wouldn'tjust sit here for an hour
talking to myself, although Ihave done in the past.
Thanks so much.
I think it just shows today.
I think I can see why you'rethe president.
I can see why you're on thefilm group because your passion
comes across.
Really appreciate your time.
(46:39):
Thanks, mike, don't worry to me, cheers.
Hey, thank you for listening tocsi on fire.
Please don't forget to like,subscribe and suggest future
topics on our webpage.
Remember factor non-verbal,take care, good hunting.
I hope to see you on the nextone, cheers.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Intentionally Disturbing
Join me on this podcast as I navigate the murky waters of human behavior, current events, and personal anecdotes through in-depth interviews with incredible people—all served with a generous helping of sarcasm and satire. After years as a forensic and clinical psychologist, I offer a unique interview style and a low tolerance for bullshit, quickly steering conversations toward depth and darkness. I honor the seriousness while also appreciating wit. I’m your guide through the twisted labyrinth of the human psyche, armed with dark humor and biting wit.