April 29, 2025 • 42 mins
Simon Zatyrka welcomes Hanalei Souza, author of "Nice Work Boys" and creator of LadyLineCook.com, for an in-depth conversation about culinary leadership and professional kitchen dynamics. Hanalei shares her remarkable journey from snowboarding in ski resort towns to deliberately seeking out the busiest restaurant in town to "get her ass kicked" and test her mettle in a professional kitchen. Six years later, she's not only thrived as a sous chef but has documented her leadership evolution in a book she wrote at just 23 years old.
Throughout this engaging discussion, Hanalei candidly reflects on the gradual transition from line cook to kitchen leader, emphasizing that becoming a sous chef isn't about flipping a switch but accumulating badges of competency and earning respect. She offers unique insights about leadership philosophy in the culinary world – how kitchen management differs fundamentally from office-based leadership, requiring hands-on involvement and leading from the front.
The conversation also explores the challenges and dynamics of being a woman in professional kitchens, balancing restaurant work with social media presence, and the potential advantages and pitfalls of private chef work compared to restaurant employment. Listeners will appreciate Hanalei's refreshing authenticity about kitchen hierarchy, the evolution of leadership roles, and her practical wisdom that translates across industries.
TIMESTAMPS
- [00:00] - Introduction and welcome to Hanalei Souza
- [01:30] - Hanalei's journey from snowboarding to cooking
- [05:45] - The transition from line cook to sous chef
- [10:20] - Discussion of Hanalei's book "Nice Work Boys"
- [14:30] - The evolving nature of the sous chef role
- [18:50] - Leading from the front in kitchen management
- [24:15] - Women in professional kitchens
- [27:40] - Adapting to new kitchen cultures and methods
- [31:25] - Balancing restaurant work with social media presence
- [36:10] - The challenges of private chef work vs. restaurant work
- [40:45] - Closing thoughts and where to find Hanalei online
KEY QUOTES
- "I wanted to pick the busiest restaurant in my town. Like, where's a place where I'm gonna get my ass kicked, where I'm really gonna get a taste of this life and decide if it's for me or if I'm not cut out for it." - Hanalei Souza
- "Leadership is difficult, but it's not that complicated. It's the same concepts, it's the same stuff that you're putting into practice." - Hanalei Souza
- "A good chef or a good sous chef is still in the thick of it... you're not just standing on some throne barking orders." - Hanalei Souza
KEY TAKEAWAYS
- Th
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You're listening toHeritage Radio Network.
I.
From kitchen chaos to well oiledmachines, get ready for newfangled
technology and old school know how.
(00:22):
Stories and a good bit of fun.
I'm Simon, and this is Culinary Mechanic.
Today I am joined by Hlaa.
She's the author of the book, nice WorkBoys and the website, lady line cook.com.
(00:46):
Hla welcome to Culinary Mechanic.
Hanalei (00:49):
Thank you for having me.
Simon (00:52):
Let's just kind of get rolling here and say, how'd you get into this industry?
Hanalei (00:57):
Um, a little by accident, a little on purpose.
I think a lot of people say thatabout how they started cooking,
but I loved to cook as a kid.
Um, I cooked a lot as a teenager,but I didn't consider it a career.
'cause I think, um, whereI grew up, it was very.
Academically rigorous.
Like everyone around me waslike doctor, lawyer, whatever.
(01:21):
And I didn't really know what Iwanted to do, so I went ahead and
I knew that I loved to snowboard.
That's like all I knew at the time.
So I was like, well, I'm gonna goand I'm gonna get a business degree.
Um, 'cause business,everything's business.
So I'm like, that's a good, and,and it wasn't even a conversation of
like, are you gonna college or not?
It's like you graduated highschool and you went to college.
Like that was the culture.
(01:41):
They would ask you like, whichcollege are you coming to?
Not, what are you gonna do next?
You know, so,
Simon (01:45):
right.
Hanalei (01:46):
And then I feel like I didn't really have the thought of like, you know,
maybe you don't, maybe you go to college,maybe you don't, blah, blah, blah.
So I, I was like, I'm gonna study businessbecause I don't know what I wanna do.
So I ended up picking a ski townwhere I could snowboard every day
and studying business, but witha major in ski resort management.
Nice.
So I did that.
(02:06):
Graduated, um.
I did community college first for abit like back at home where I grew
up and then moved to the mountains.
Um, and then I did end up workingin the ski industry for a bit.
So I did, um, I did an on mountain job.
It was a lot of fun.
I loved it.
Um, we would build these liketerrain parks and stuff, so.
(02:27):
Nice.
We would build, um, jumps and wehelped with the halfpipe and all that.
Um, a lot of time on mysnowboard, a really great job.
And then I ended up also gettingpromoted to supervisor, so
I was also learning to lead.
It was a fun job.
I really liked, I was starting to learnhow to drive those big machines and stuff.
Um, but it was a great job, but itwas five months out of the year, so I
(02:50):
was like, you know, I'm gonna do this.
And then I had to find a summer job.
So that's when, um, I had just gottenmarried and my husband was like,
you're really good at cooking, soyou need to, like, you at least you
just have to try it like you have.
He found me a couple line cook jobs.
He's like, just apply to these.
Like try it and then go back tothe ski resort in the winter.
Like there's nothing to lose.
So I was like, okay.
(03:11):
And that's was when I got myfirst line cook job, which is at
a really small mom and pop place.
Um.
Where there was like a two orthree person kitchen and I learned
everything like line prep, saute,grill, like I got such a well-rounded,
um, experience at that place.
Nice.
And then I did end up going backto the ski resort in the winter.
(03:34):
Um, and then at the end of that secondseason, like around the spring, I
was like, okay, for my summer job.
I wanna pick the busiestrestaurant in my town.
Like, where's a place where I'm gonnaget my ass kicked, where I'm really gonna
get a taste of this life and decide ifit's for me or if I'm not cut out for it.
And there's this one restaurantthat's just always busy.
(03:55):
They're the last ones open.
Like they're huge.
They're the biggest restaurant.
They're, they're just alwaysis a line out the door.
Um, and I was like, I'mgonna go work at that one.
And six years later, I'm the sous chef.
At that restaurant and training tobe exec chef at that restaurant.
So I stayed.
I loved it, and the rest is history.
Simon (04:14):
I love it.
Uh, I especially love the partof, I wanna go get my ass kicked.
Yeah.
Um, 'cause be, I'll be honest with you,I don't know if I ever, well, in the
beginning for me, when I was just gettinggoing, I, I was just trying to survive.
I didn't know what thehell I was doing at 16.
I remember those days where you,all of a sudden you become addicted
(04:37):
to that like feeling of go, go, go.
And just the adrenaline of it all.
I think the fact that you're a snowboarderkind of helps with that, right?
Yeah.
Just kind of pulls that towards you.
Um, okay.
So you find, you find home, as it were,six years later, you're a sous chef.
Uh, you know, I'm really interestedin that, in sort of that time of like.
(05:02):
I'm a line cook.
I'm a line cook.
I'm a sous chef.
How, how did that go?
How did that feel?
Give us some color to that.
Hanalei (05:11):
Yeah, so that's what my book's about.
Um, that's literally the entire,the entire thing basically
focuses on that process, right?
But it is, I kind of imagined in myhead like, okay, you're a line cook.
You're a line cook, and thenext day you get promoted.
You get a title, you're a sous chef, like.
I feel like that's kind of how I thoughtabout it before all this, like, oh,
(05:31):
you either have the title or you don't.
But I would say it was probablya two to three year process where
I wasn't really sure what it was.
And then finally in, um, like twoand a half years ago, I got promoted.
So I got the title.
I went from hourly to salary.
I had like, you know, it's official,but I felt like at that point,
like nothing actually changedbecause that was almost like.
(05:53):
The conclusion of a processthat had already been started
like two years before.
And then even after that, I wasstill growing into the role.
So like even within the last two yearswhere I'm like still a sous chef and
it's like I'm still, my job now is sodifferent from what it was two years ago,
and I have the same title, so it's like.
(06:14):
It's always learning and it's alwaysgrowing, and I think people need
to see leadership that way of like,um, I mean, I'm sure we'll get into
this in the whole episode, but likethere's a lot of philosophy about,
like, your title doesn't matter.
Like it's a, it's how peopleactually see you, right?
So it's like you have tokind of act a little bit.
More than what you're expected.
(06:35):
And you know, the wrong employer willtake advantage of you and then they won't
pay you more and they'll, they'll justkind of like work you to death because
you're ambitious and you wanna learn more.
But the right employer will take you underthe wing and say like, okay, I see you
want more, but for a short period of time,you're gonna have to be putting in that
work where it's, you don't have the titleand you might not have to pay yet, but
Simon (06:55):
Right.
Hanalei (06:55):
You just have to know that that's coming and know
that that's how you get there.
Simon (07:02):
I love it.
Um, I've never thought about this before,but as you were describing it, I was thi
I was kind of like imagining like theBoy Scouts, the Girl Scouts, and they
get, you get like the badge for eachlike, sort of thing that you accomplish
and the, the skill that you learn.
And I feel like it isn't, youknow, looking back it isn't.
(07:25):
It isn't necessarily like just oneday you fluke a switch and you, you're
the sous chef and it, and it works.
And however I've seen that and that'slike half of why I have a business now.
Yeah, because, because chefs,chefs get into their roles or sous
chefs get into their roles andnobody has taught them what to do.
Nobody has said here,this is how you lead.
(07:46):
Hey, this is how you get peopleto do what you want when you,
when they don't wanna, right.
Like it's, it's all those things.
So I love the, I actually like the factthat there was some development or you
feel that there was some developmentfrom, from that sort of maybe starting
point into, um, the moment where you got,were given the title and the salary and
you know, your life kind of turned off.
(08:07):
'cause that's what happened to me whenI first got my first sous chef job.
My wife was like, what?
Like, where are you?
Like, are you still alive?
I'm like, oh, I'm still alive.
I just don't live here anymore.
Yeah.
Um, so, and then I, I gotta say,I really dig the, the concept that
the job you have, it's the same job,but the job you have today isn't the
(08:29):
same job you had a couple years ago.
Can you tell us more abouthow, what, what that feel like?
How has that changed in your brain?
Um, and also before you answer thatquestion, it's that same question of.
You wrote the book around that sort offirst process of getting to the sous chef.
So yeah.
How would you say that kind ofeverything has changed since the book?
Hanalei (08:52):
Yeah, so the book has been out for four years and I was 23
when I wrote it and published it.
So it's been, it's been a while, but.
I technically, I'm, I still havelike the same job title, I guess.
Like I wasn't officially sous chef,but I was on, I was like the unofficial
sous chef at the time when it came out.
And even thinking, I think a lot of thelessons that I learned happened then,
(09:17):
and I, I wouldn't say that like I. I'velearned tons of new things since then.
It's more like I've been building on thosesame concepts and just continuing to build
and build a lot of the things I talk aboutsuch as like gaining people's respect.
And I talk about, um, learning to delegateand I talk about just like I. Trying to
deal with people that don't wanna listento you and like kind of stuff like that.
(09:38):
And I think, I think I wrote it ata really good time because a lot
of people are like, well, don'tyou wanna be further removed?
Like I was literally messaging someoneon Instagram the other day just about
like, oh, they also wanna write a memoir,but they were told that they were too
young or like that they had to waitseven years after the things happened.
And I was like, don'tlisten to anyone's advice.
Like if you wanna write your story,like write it even while you're
(09:58):
still in the middle of it because.
I think a lot of the things that Iwas learning, I was still processing
it all and like, and I write anafterward too, I'm like, I'm not
writing this book because I know it all.
I'm writing it because I'm still inthe thick of it and I'm still trying
to actively learn all this stuff.
And so it was so fresh, and that'swhy I think it offers a very different
perspective than a lot of other booksdo when it's like, I'm not saying
(10:21):
that one's better than the other.
It's like they're just different thingsto read, you know, different perspectives.
So.
I would say like, because I've evengone back and read it to think like,
what should I write a second book?
Or like, what should I add to it?
Or should I write like a, should Ipublish a version that has like a
(10:41):
forward from myself five years later?
But I was like, I don'tsee a lot of this stuff.
I'm still learning all of that stuff.
Like I'm still practicing it.
I'm still.
Learning how to gain people'srespect on the daily.
I'm still learn.
I'm better at delegating andway better at so many of the
things that I struggled with.
But it's the same stuff.
Like leadership is, it's difficult,but it's not that complicated.
(11:04):
You know?
It's, it's, it can seem complicated,but once you learn like the basics, you
just keep building on that and like.
Learning different people and learninglike, okay, so that person quit and now
you have another set of people and nowyou have to learn how to manage them.
And you have to learnlike what clicks for them.
And you have to learn.
You're learning ways to make thingsmore efficient and things that you've
(11:25):
done the same way for 10 years, you'relike, actually that's change how we
like, there's always learning, butat the end of the day, like it's the
same concepts, it's the same stuffthat you're putting into practice.
Simon (11:37):
Yeah.
Um, I. First of all, I, I'm, I'm gonna putmy hat in the Please write another book.
Right?
I think that, uh, as many people asI can think of that I've spoken to
about writing a book and that havewritten books, they're like, man,
there's always more stuff accumulatingthat will create that second book.
(12:01):
Um, I know that, uh.
I'm in the process of likesort of figuring out what
kind of book I wanna write.
I don't know that it'll be a memoir,but I think it's more along the lines
of like a kind of a, kind of a call ita no nonsense or a no bullshit version
of leadership guide for for chefs.
Yeah, because I've seen a bunch of 'emand I'm like, that was not written for us.
(12:26):
Yeah, like that was writtenfor somebody else, but it was
not written for the animals.
Hanalei (12:30):
Yeah, there's a lot of leadership books out there that are,
that are great and have good advice,but a lot of them are like in an
office setting or like Totally are.
They just don't, it's just very different.
Like I think you can maybe pick andchoose like certain concepts, but
at the end of the day, like kitchenleadership is just so different.
Like it's the kind of job where it's.
It's like physically and mentallydemanding, but like even if you're a
(12:53):
leader, a good chef or a good sous chefis still in the thick of it with, so
they're not just like standing on somethrone of barking orders or you're not
like sending emails and you're not likethe guy at the I'd write about this
too, like the guy at the constructionsite who, who just walks in a suit,
who just walks around with a clipboard.
Like imagine you're.
The guy, you know, you're the constructionproject manager or whatever, and you're
(13:15):
also with, with your hammer, and you'relike right next to the new guy putting
the nails in like right next to him.
And it's kind of, it's very differentfrom a lot of other industries, like
you're leading, but you're also like,you have to lead from the front.
Simon (13:29):
Yep.
Yep.
I, I mean, I. I worked for a FourSeasons resort and I was stunned
because I, I, our executive chef wasthis like prim and proper British guy.
Right.
And his chef coat was immaculateand he wore like the coolest
chef pants I've ever seen.
They were like tailored and like, helooked like some sort of freaking runway
(13:53):
model in, in these, in this whole thing.
And.
It didn't matter when the, when shitgot thick on the line, he would throw
on his apron and he was right there.
And yeah, always set him apart.
Was the fact that it didn'tmatter how busy he got, how dirty
or how like down in it he was.
He stayed like perfectly clean.
I was like, do you have like, yeah.
(14:14):
Are you like Teflon?
Is that, that's what I used to tell him.
I'm like, are you coded in Teflon?
'cause nothing gets on you.
Yeah.
And he's like, he's like,that's why I have my job.
And that's why you have your job.
Yeah.
And I was like, okay, okay.
It's true.
You know?
And he had, he had one, he had anexecutive sous chef, two restaurants,
executive sous chef, two restaurantsous chefs, a banquet chef and a
(14:37):
banquet sous-chef below him, right?
And so he had a full, huge brigade.
I mean, there was seven of us on the line.
Um, and that was just the hotline,that was the garge was crazy big.
And like, it was just amazing.
But it, I always loved the fact thatno matter how crazy it would get.
He would still, he would still pitch in.
Right.
That, that was real to me.
(14:57):
Yeah.
That's great.
Um, yeah, I think talking about like howyou build on the concepts of leadership,
I think it's, I think it's really amazingthat like people think that like once you
become the leader, then that's it, right?
Yeah.
You actually, you just gotta keep going.
Your office work and learning and, well,I mean, I, I did a lot of office work
(15:20):
in my later years, but I also like.
I made sure that there was alwayssomething that I was tied to.
Right?
Like yeah, absolutely.
I worked in one place where nomatter what, I made soup of the day.
Right?
Yeah.
Like I, I would clear, I wouldclear a section of my morning so
that I could go and I could makesoup and that no matter what, I
actually had my hands in something.
(15:42):
I don't know about you, but I did notget into the restaurant business to spend
all my time in a cramp little office.
I love being in thekitchen, out on the floor.
And if you're nodding your head rightnow, I want to introduce you to an
amazing company called Starfish.
Look, I've gotten to know their CEOJordan recently and what they're
(16:03):
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you actionable insights every week.
So you can lower yourcosts and increase revenue.
Best part is you don't have tospend time digging through your
P and L's pouring over reportsin that cramped little office.
(16:23):
Starfish is going to do that foryou so you can get back to the
part of the business that you love.
If you're interested, go totheir website, use starfish.
com that's U S E starfish.
com and tell them Simon sent you.
Hanalei (16:39):
Yeah.
Because that's when you see other stuff,like sometimes I'll task myself with like.
Prepping for a special when it's like,I could delegate this out, but I'm
like, I need something that will anchorme in the kitchen for the next few
hours so that I'm seeing other things.
I'm, I see the prep guy nextto me doing something wrong.
I just saved a whole batch of pork.
Or you know, it's like,
Simon (16:56):
right,
Hanalei (16:57):
it's a lot of chefs like you can't, you have office work,
but you can't just like hide forfour or five hours at a time.
And like, even if you have a greatcrew, it's, it's good to be up there,
even if they just see you and thenthey respect you more and they.
They can ask you for help.
Simon (17:15):
Yep.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, I mean that's, I think that's what.
Like you said, that's what sets usapart from other industries is that
we're, no matter how far you go along,you're still kind of down in it.
Yeah.
Um, able, able to do the thing.
And I think that that adds credibility.
Right.
You know, I, I re, I recall aninteraction with a young sous chef,
(17:37):
and at the time I was probably.
48, 49 years old, and he's like 23.
And, and I, I looked ragged.
I, I had a long week, youknow, it was almost my Friday.
I was almost done.
And he's like, you look like shit.
And I said, well, okay, I, I'll take that.
I said, but here's the deal.
(17:57):
Like, you know, I said something else.
I was like, here's the deal.
Like, I, I can do anything you can do.
And he goes, ah, no, I can, you know,uh, I can move way faster than you.
All these things.
And I said, okay, you're right.
But here's the deal with all theexperience that I've got, I. I
can stand next to you and I can,I can do everything you can do.
(18:18):
There's one huge difference.
At the end of the night, you're gonnago home, take a quick shower, and go
to the, go to the bar or the club, andI'm gonna go home and ice my knees.
I mean, I'm gonna take a coupleof pain pills and, and I'm
gonna drink a beer on my couch.
That's the difference I said, but Yeah.
But at the end of the day, likeour bodies still know how to do it.
(18:40):
Right.
Like you can, you can getolder and you can still do it.
And that's the fun of it.
Like there's, there's stillsome, yeah, there's still some
adrenaline to be had, for sure.
Yeah, for sure.
Um, so are you still theonly woman in the kitchen?
Hanalei (18:53):
No, there's, it fluctuates, but, um, there's always been like two or I,
there was like short periods of time whereit was only me, but that wouldn't last.
Like I feel like we've alwayshad at least three, or we're a
big kitchen, now we're like 20.
So during peak season,we're over 20 cooks total.
Um, right now there's four women,which is on the bigger side
(19:17):
of the amount that we've had.
Like I think the most we've everhad was like five, which is good.
Like a lot of places.
Five women out of 20.
That's a lot for a kitchen.
I love
Simon (19:26):
it.
Hanalei (19:27):
Especially when we're all on the same shift.
Everything's so clean.
Everything
Simon (19:31):
I was about to say, so, so my experience with that is like
when I would, when I'd be staffingrestaurants, uh, and at one point I had.
I have four under my, my purview, and Ihad this one, and it always, like, the
lunch line would always become all women.
Like it would just go, just likeyou described, like ebb and flow.
(19:53):
Yeah.
But, uh, we would get to this place andit was like when I would cover, when I
would cover for the chef in charge of thatrestaurant, I, it was almost always Monday
and Tuesday mornings were like all ladies.
Yeah.
And it wa and then there was no drama.
There was no ego to it.
Everybody helped everybody else.
Um, and things were cleaner andeverybody remembered to, like, I
(20:16):
didn't have to say, Hey, let's throw aquick sweep and get the, get the floor
looking beautiful so that we can getinto the next hour or two of service.
They were just like the littletiny ladies just running around,
sweeping things up, keeping it.
I was like, this is amazing.
Yeah.
And I try to get the boys to do it, like,you know, and, and it just never quite,
Hanalei (20:33):
it's like they do it, but they don't.
You have to tell them to do it.
Simon (20:36):
Right.
Some,
Hanalei (20:36):
I don't like to generalize.
Like I just started training thisone guy on the line and he cleans,
I don't have to tell him to clean.
I'm like, oh my God.
I always tell him like, you're amazing.
You clean after yourself.
I, I said, everyone, look,he cleans after yourself.
It's one of those things that's hard totrain for anyone, but it's, I don't know,
it's kind of, and about like the drama andego stuff, like I found, 'cause sometimes
(20:58):
we'll have these conversations about like.
It's like men create drama andactually like women do too.
And when you have a mixedcrew, they, there's drama with
each other and there's drama.
Like I've seen drama from women anddrama from men and I've seen it's
like, and it's just part of work.
It's not even thing, it's likepeople, and there's always gonna be
gossip and there's always gonna be.
(21:20):
And that's kind of what keepsit a little bit exciting.
You know, I think some of the stuffexciting that's, that's, yeah.
Some of the stuff you hear, you know,it sucks to deal with, but like a
year later you're like, rememberthat one guy who blah, blah, blah.
It's like, oh yeah.
And you kind of laugh
Simon (21:36):
about
Hanalei (21:36):
it.
Simon (21:38):
Um, so I don't know about your kitchen, but in a lot of the kitchens I
worked in, I always got a kick outta thefact that there'd be things that like.
You might have learned somewhereelse and then you come to, to
this kitchen and all of a sudden,no, no, we don't do it that way.
We do it this way.
You got any of those like, yeah,
Hanalei (21:59):
I haven't worked in that many kitchens.
You know, my experience is kindof limited 'cause I found a place
early on where I just kind of stuckto and went through the ranks.
Um, but yeah, a lot of times peoplecome in with a lot of experience
and it's still, it's harder thantraining someone new sometimes because
Simon (22:18):
Yeah,
Hanalei (22:18):
to be like, actually.
We don't do that.
We, we do that this way here.
Like, and so we have to treatthem how to do it, how we do it.
And so it, I think thereis a lot of difference.
And maybe one isn't evenbetter than the other.
It's more just like, I'm not gonnachange what I'm teaching you just
because you think you know a better way.
Like I'm, I'm gonna teach you whatthe executive chef tells me to do.
(22:40):
And, um, it's, that's my job.
It's, I, I show you how he wants it done.
I'm, I'm not here to like listen to.
I like to listen to peopleand like sometimes people have
great ideas where they're like,Hey, this way's more efficient.
I'm like, huh, you're right.
Like, there have been moments where itis, but I think if it's, you know, those,
those are the exception and not therule, you know, the typically it's like
(23:01):
if I'm training you, I'm training you.
If you have, I, I like people tofeel like they can have input.
Even tell me how they didit at their last place.
Like, I, I don't care.
A lot of chefs joke about like, oh, don'ttell me how you did it at your last place.
But I was like, sometimes I'd liketo hear a different perspective and
that doesn't mean I'm gonna do it.
I just like to hear these things.
And you know, especially ifyou're from a different country,
(23:24):
I like to hear like how, how it'sdifferent there versus in America.
Like Totally.
Things like that.
Simon (23:30):
I mean, I think, I think that, you know, and I, I, I guess
I would love for somebody who'slistening to this to hear that like.
It happens all the time everywhere, right?
We, we, we learn away and then wego and like, oh, my way is better.
The reality is, wherever you are.
Right now.
That's the way.
(23:50):
Yeah.
Right.
Exactly.
And I think that you, you gotta learnthat way and, and understand it and fully
embrace it and then like then have thatconversation of, yeah, hey, I understand
exactly what we do, but how about this?
And I think that, yeah, some of that,some of that kind of stuff is trying,
you have to prove your train trainable.
Hanalei (24:10):
Yeah.
You have to prove train trainablefirst and then, but even.
For me, going from starting as a linecook to now having say over specials on
the menu and like having the respect fromthe executive chef to be like, I know
you have this idea, but I have this idea.
Then we kind of come to anagreement, but that's, that takes
time and that's an earned, right.
It's not like, just because I canquestion the executive chef's methods.
(24:35):
Okay, I've been here six years andI'm literally the sous chef, like.
At the end of the day, if thechef disagrees with me, he is
like, no, I'm gonna do it my way.
That then that's how it works.
'cause he's still my boss.
So it's like, but I, if someone comesin on their first day and like I
work with those people and they just,they never last, they just don't,
like, I don't even need to fire them.
Like they just don't last.
Simon (24:57):
They fire themselves.
Hanalei (24:58):
Yeah.
Basically.
Simon (25:01):
Yeah.
I mean, I think, uh.
I, I've got a client right now and wejust had this long, like, God, it was
like two hour long discussion withhim and his managers around fit right.
And, and finding the hiring for fitrather than hiring for the body, you know?
Yeah.
And, and it's hard nowadays.
Um.
(25:21):
I, I don't know if you know thehistory of this, but somewhere around
2006, 2007, the culinary schools,they just, like the culinary schools
for profit, just started exploding.
Right there were cordon blue everywhere.
I. And so somewhere around the yearsof 2007 to I would say 2016 or 17, like
(25:43):
you just turn around and everybody hadgone to culinary school and everybody
thought they were gonna be the chef.
And there's just cooks everywhere.
Yeah.
And then somehow, right about thetime that you, like 2018, 2019, like
somebody started to turn off the faucet.
I, it was weird.
And now those culinary schools arefolding, those for-profit school schools
are folding all over the country.
(26:05):
Yeah.
And so it's like we're now in this timepost covid and I just realized the other
day, I'm like, we're five year almost.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Five years from the back down.
I vividly remember
Hanalei (26:15):
five years ago.
Yeah.
This
Simon (26:17):
past weekend.
Yeah.
It's wild.
Yeah.
And, and now it's like you look aroundand like, ah, I don't know how it is
where you are, but boy where I am.
Everybody I know is like,you know, when he cooks.
Do you know any cooks?
Yeah.
I'm like, 'cause it's,it's tough, you know?
Yeah.
Um, I, I think dishwashers havea better chance of becoming
(26:40):
cooks now than they used to.
Yeah.
It's just hiring, hiringdishwashers is hard too.
Hanalei (26:44):
Yeah.
Simon (26:46):
Um, so I. I don't know if it's a easy question to answer or
not, but like, what is, what isthe, what's the plan going forward?
Is it hang out where you are and,and be, and you said you were
training to be the executive chef.
I think that's amazing.
Yeah.
Um, what's, what's thefuture kind of hope for you?
Hanalei (27:09):
Yeah.
I don't know.
'cause if you asked me five yearsago, like I wouldn't have said.
To be a chef, like, I guess five,six, I guess six years ago I was
still in the ski industry and you'dask me, I would've said like, I
wanna be a manager in a ski resort.
Like I wanna be outside every day.
And I wouldn't have even said chef.
So it's always interesting thinking aboutthe future and like how things can change.
(27:29):
Um, but I would say my short term planis definitely to stick around and be
exec chef and definitely stick, youknow, I'm not the kind of person who's
gonna do that for a year and then quit.
It's like I. I'm gonna stick with itfor a little bit and then I'm gonna
see, like, you know, I, I don't know.
I mean, I feel like private chefingis an awesome thing that I've, I've
(27:51):
looked into, but it's gonna have itsown challenges and its own things.
Mm-hmm.
You know, a lot of peoplesay, yeah, just go to private.
You make way more moneywith way less effort.
But it's like you have to create yourown, you have to market yourself.
You have to create your own clients.
If you're not getting, you know,I get my salary no matter what.
Even if we do 20 covers at lunch,which is like absolutely nothing.
(28:12):
Like I get my salary, but it's like,and um, we're always busy and I don't
do anything to contribute to that.
Like we're just, we're busy.
Like when before I workedthere, we were always busy.
So it's like it's, there'redifferent challenges.
'cause like I've had, yeah, I do acouple private chefing events like.
For friends and like off, you know,and I, I know what I could make
(28:32):
in one day versus my paycheck as asous chef and how much work that is.
But it's also like there's, there's thisdifferent challenge, you know, like as a
private chef, I was kind of thinking aboutlike, oh, like if I serve food right now
at the restaurant and a guest doesn't likeit, like I don't see them face to face.
It's not me personally.
(28:54):
Like it's, I still feel badand I don't ever want that to
happen, but like it does happen.
But then as a private chef,it's like it's only you.
Like you have nothing else.
There is literally zero buffer.
There is zero.
Like it is only a hundredpercent accountability.
Like you can't blame anything else.
You can't blame anyone else.
Like there's literally no one to blame.
Simon (29:13):
There is nothing else.
So
Hanalei (29:14):
that was kind of what I was like thinking about the other day.
'cause I was like.
Because I've done, I've done a coupleweddings and like things like that and
it's always been great, but I don't do 'emthat often 'cause it's like on the side.
But it's like, man, that would be toughif like, they didn't like their food.
Like what?
You know, like that would bereally, that would be really,
really difficult, you know?
'cause there's literally nothing.
Yeah.
Simon (29:34):
You know,
I've got a friend in Australiaand her business is weddings.
That's it.
Yeah.
And she does one event at a time.
Yeah.
And she has a super tight, tiny crew.
Yeah.
And they, she, I'm like,how do you do that?
She's like, people come to me ifthey want like the next level.
(29:56):
Yeah.
She says, and, and she, shepromotes most of her business.
Like most of her, her business comes rightoff Instagram because she's, she's got
a good deal, good relationship with herphotographer who just like inundates her
with, with content that she can put on.
Yeah, on Instagram.
I mean it, my advice from, fromone cook to the other is like, keep
(30:20):
doing that, that you just described,like keep doing those things.
And over time with consistency,like everything else, right?
Like, you'll know, like there'll,there'll be a moment Yeah.
Where, where there'll be enoughdemand and you'll be going, huh?
This, this actuallycould, could be a thing.
Right?
Yeah.
But I think that's the, that's how youbuild that sort of organic business.
(30:43):
Yeah.
And, and just, and, and also.
Like hone the craft ofit, you know what I mean?
Yeah.
It's like, um, I, I always equatelike big new projects to like getting
a 50 pound bag of onions, throwingit on the table and grabbing a new
knife out of my bo out of my bag, andgoing, okay, I'm gonna cut the whole
bag of onions with this new knife.
(31:05):
And like, the first 10minutes are murderously awful.
Right?
The knife doesn't feel quite right, youknow, and, and like, oh, okay, onions.
And then by the time you get tothe end of that 50 pound bag.
Yeah, you're flying.
Yeah.
You know, so I think that being ableto get really comfortable with like,
really ground in and comfortable anddoing individual events, um, at some
(31:29):
point you're gonna go, wow, this is easy.
And people are coming to me becausemy reputation has gotten so great.
And I think that that's.
That's what a lot of folks who they,they see what exactly what you described.
They see the money, they seelike, oh, the freedom of it.
Well, freedom means freedomto fall on your face too.
Yeah,
Hanalei (31:50):
definitely.
Simon (31:51):
Yeah.
So that's my advice.
Take it or leave it.
Um, but I mean, I think, I thinkthere's, if you're a good cook,
people will come after a while.
Um, it just means do an an andsituation instead of an OR situation.
Hanalei (32:04):
Yeah, exactly.
It's hard to do anything else when, whenyou're restaurant sous chef or executive
chef, there isn't really much room for,
Simon (32:12):
there isn't
Hanalei (32:13):
anything like, the fact that I even have like the Instagram and
book side gig is like, that's enough.
Simon (32:18):
You just teed me up.
There you go.
Yeah, I was about to say like,you know, it, it's a, it's a fun,
modern world when you can thinkabout, uh, you can think about.
A sous chef who has time to maintainan Instagram, I maintain an Instagram
account and I'm not very good at it.
Um, and it's a lot of work.
(32:38):
Yeah, it is.
You know.
Um, so how would you say that that,like, how, how does the, the sales
of the book, the, the following onInstagram, how does that sort of
feed back into your regular life?
Daily life?
Pardon me?
(32:59):
Um, you know, as far as what, what kindof influence does any of that have on
kind of how you go about your regular day?
Hanalei (33:07):
Yeah, I feel like it's, I wanna say it's separate and intertwined
at the same time in different ways.
Like, I would say that it's separate whereit's like when I'm at work, I'm at work,
I'm not, I. Like a lot of people come onmy page and accuse me of, they only hired
you 'cause you're famous on Instagram.
I'm like, uh, I started there in 2019and I started my Instagram in 2020.
(33:27):
Like, this is the math's not math thing.
Like, stop it with your falseattitude because you're jealous of me.
Like, stop it.
But yeah, people come on my pages, butI'm, I keep them separate as in like,
work is work Instagram is Instagram,I'm, I'm a restaurant sous chef first.
Instagram takes the backseat when,when it needs to, you know, like I'm
(33:49):
not, I'm not this like influencer chef.
Like I hate the word in influencer.
Like someone, someone elsethe other day said like, oh,
influencer's basically a slur.
I'm like, yes it is.
You call me influencer,I'll be very offended.
I'm like, that's funny.
Influencer.
I don't know.
It was just in my mind like the wordinfluencers, like wanna be, you know,
it's like, 'cause a lot of people dofake, they just get on Instagram and
(34:12):
like take a selfie and like fake.
They're not the real deal.
You know, a lot of people online are like,maybe they're even like a good home chef,
but like, they call themselves chef andthey have a bunch of cookbooks out and
like, yeah, maybe their food's good, butlike they have no idea about the life.
You know, like they've never workedin a restaurant, they've never
had to grind it out in the line.
(34:33):
Like, and it's like, you know,there's a certain respect to be had
for people who make these videos.
'cause it's a lot ofwork to make videos too.
So it's like, yep.
You, you won't catch mecalling myself influencers.
Simon (34:46):
Okay.
So I gotta share, I gotta share with yousomething that I find really Yeah, I,
I, I completely agree about that word.
Yeah.
Um, and so two, I guess two things.
I sometimes feel that way of in thiscurrent, like in right now, 2020, maybe
the last year about the word chef.
Yeah.
I'm like, everybodygrabs that word, right?
(35:07):
Yeah.
Like, I'm like, do you understand that?
I like, I tell people, I'mlike, do you understand?
I spent 10 years as a line cookbefore I ever got a sous chef job.
Yeah.
And then I was a sous chef for.
I don't know, five, six years.
And granted, my, my path is differentthan everybody else's, and I don't impose
that structure on anybody else, but like,I worked hard to get where I got to.
(35:29):
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
And for me, for, for me, I, youknow, in my late thirties and
forties and now fifties, I lookaround and I'm like, wait, chef.
Chief, like you're not a chef.
You might be a good cook.
And I love that.
Like I, I aspire to be a great cook.
Yeah.
That's the goal for me at the end ofthe day, almost with anything, right?
(35:50):
Like I want, I want people to.
I don't necessarily want people tolook at me, look at my gravestone
and go, oh, he was an amazing chef.
I want him to go, thatguy could fucking cook.
Yeah.
That's what matters.
That's how we connect.
Like, that's how it all works.
Yeah.
Um, so I, I feel you like when youtalk about influencer being a dirty
word, you know, like some days thereare days for me and I, quite honestly,
(36:12):
that's why my podcast and my consultingbusiness is called Culinary Mechanic.
'cause it's, it's in a, it's away for me to like remove, like.
Yeah, I take things apart.
I put 'em back together and theyrun better than they did yesterday.
Hanalei (36:26):
Yeah, you fixed it,
Simon (36:28):
right?
Yeah.
Um, but the funniest part about sayinginfluencer is a dirty word is that when
I try to describe, people ask me all thetime, well, like, what is leadership?
And for me the easiest, likemost straightforward definition
is expansion of influence.
Yeah.
And so it's like, okay, wait, I wantto be, I wanna expand my influence.
(36:52):
And then people then startto sully that, right?
Yeah.
With influencer.
Um, yeah.
It's, it's a funny world.
Um, yeah.
It's that kind of thing that just alwaysmakes me kind of scratch my head and
go, the thing that we try to do, thething that we try to be other people
somehow managed to fuck it up for us.
Hanalei (37:12):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I. Influencer as like a, you're onsocial media and like, I think it,
it could be good or bad, right?
Like
Simon (37:22):
Totally.
Hanalei (37:23):
I think it, in the last couple years, it's definitely gained
a negative kind of connotation.
Like when I think ofinfluencer, I think of like.
Like someone with a duck faceand like taking selfies and
like not really doing anything.
Like, just kind of like being, like tryingto sell you a bunch of things and like use
my discount code and like, I don't know.
When I think of influencer, like I thinkof, I think of people with a lot of ego
(37:45):
who think they're all that who walk intoa restaurant and say, give me free food.
I have x number of followers.
Like, that's kind of what comes tomy mind when I think of influencers.
So when it's not, it's not a bad thing.
If you have influence.
Like, I definitely have influencebecause people come into my dms
every day like, Hey, you inspiredme to go apply for that cook job.
Hey, I, I read your book andI'm gonna ask for the promotion.
(38:07):
Like, like people, I influence people.
Like there's no denying that influencethat you might have on people's lives.
Like even just the people that,even if you don't have social
media and you just know people inlife and everyone is influenced
by things or everyone influencesother people to do certain things.
So it's like.
Yeah, I guess, I guess theterm influencers has kind of
(38:29):
become this complicated thing.
It's, it's dirty.
Simon (38:31):
I'm, it's dirty.
Yeah.
I'm with you a hundred percent.
Hanalei (38:34):
But I guess, yeah, going back to the original question, which
was like, work and social mediabeing kind of separate, but they
are intertwined in the way thatwork inspires what I post on social
media because, um, hold on a second.
(38:56):
Yeah, work definitelyinspires what I post.
'cause every, almost everythingI post was inspired by
something that happened at work.
So it's not like, it's not likeI'm just sitting there on my
couch, like coming up with ideas.
Like I definitely, they're veryinterconnected where it's like I
wouldn't have one without the other.
Like I wouldn't, you know, if Iwent to full-time influencer and,
(39:17):
and made money off Lady Line cook.
And then I quit my job.
I would probably just, therewould be no more content.
So I was like, I don'tknow if I could do that.
'cause there, what am I gonna post about?
It's like, yeah.
So it's interesting 'cause it's like Itry to keep them separate and I don't
even like go around telling peopleto follow me, but somehow I've shown
up on all of my coworkers for you,Paige, and everyone follows me now.
(39:38):
But I, I didn't tell them to like evenI learned like recently that like.
My general manager popped upand like, people you may know,
and it said, follow back.
And I was like, allthis time I had no idea.
I was like, I'm glad that what Ipost is like, I wasn't like, oh my
God, the general manager follows me.
I was like, okay, there's nothing that Ipost that's like that I regret posting.
(40:00):
Right.
So I guess it's, I keep, Itry to keep them separate,
but at the end of the day, I.
Simon (40:09):
That, that, that makes a lot of sense.
Yeah, makes a lot of sense.
Um, are you familiarwith a guy, what is it?
It's called, his podcast iscalled 86, giving a Shit.
No, it's a guy outta New York Cityand he uses different names, but he
basically like, does almost a daily rant.
Like sometimes it's every day.
(40:29):
Um, and it's like six.
10 minutes long at the most.
And, and he'll just like go offon the things that frustrate him.
And usually it's about work andlike how, how people are stupid.
Yeah.
And or, or like how line cook, you know,he just, he talks about, talks about
dishwasher, mafias and, you know, likethe, all the dishwashers are related and
(40:51):
you can't get 'em, you can't get Yeah.
Anything to happen and allthese, it's just, I don't know.
It's, it's worth a listen.
'cause he's, yeah.
The guy's freaking hysterical.
Um, and he refers to therestaurant as a bank?
Yeah, because he's, he's, I'mpretty sure he is like right down
on Wall Street and he is like, sohe, so like when he is everything,
(41:12):
he tries to kind of talk in code.
But when you listen to the intro to it.
He talks about the fact that he startedit so that he could have a place to
vent and he encourages his coworkersto listen because he's probably
not gonna be able to say the thingsthat he says on his podcast at work.
Yeah.
(41:32):
So I continue to believe andsay that, um, it's a weird wild
place, this world we live in.
Yeah, definitely.
Gosh, uh, we coveredsome cool ground here.
Thank you so much Yeah.
For coming and playing with me.
Um, I really appreciate it.
So, in the show notes, I'm gonna makesure that everybody can find you, um,
(41:53):
from the website being Lady Line Cook.
Um, I'll make sure the, your IGand YouTube are there as well.
, to all you out there, thank you forcoming and playing and hanging out
in our little sandbox of the world,and, um, please continue to keep
listening and following and liking.
Um, let's see, Spotify, apple,YouTube, all the things and stuff.
(42:15):
Um, and I'll see you next time
You're listening toHeritage Radio Network.
I.
From kitchen chaos to well oiledmachines, get ready for newfangled
technology and old school know how.
(00:22):
Stories and a good bit of fun.
I'm Simon, and this is Culinary Mechanic.
Today I am joined by Hlaa.
She's the author of the book, nice WorkBoys and the website, lady line cook.com.
(00:46):
Hla welcome to Culinary Mechanic.
Hanalei (00:49):
Thank you for having me.
Simon (00:52):
Let's just kind of get rolling here and say, how'd you get into this industry?
Hanalei (00:57):
Um, a little by accident, a little on purpose.
I think a lot of people say thatabout how they started cooking,
but I loved to cook as a kid.
Um, I cooked a lot as a teenager,but I didn't consider it a career.
'cause I think, um, whereI grew up, it was very.
Academically rigorous.
Like everyone around me waslike doctor, lawyer, whatever.
(01:21):
And I didn't really know what Iwanted to do, so I went ahead and
I knew that I loved to snowboard.
That's like all I knew at the time.
So I was like, well, I'm gonna goand I'm gonna get a business degree.
Um, 'cause business,everything's business.
So I'm like, that's a good, and,and it wasn't even a conversation of
like, are you gonna college or not?
It's like you graduated highschool and you went to college.
Like that was the culture.
(01:41):
They would ask you like, whichcollege are you coming to?
Not, what are you gonna do next?
You know, so,
Simon (01:45):
right.
Hanalei (01:46):
And then I feel like I didn't really have the thought of like, you know,
maybe you don't, maybe you go to college,maybe you don't, blah, blah, blah.
So I, I was like, I'm gonna study businessbecause I don't know what I wanna do.
So I ended up picking a ski townwhere I could snowboard every day
and studying business, but witha major in ski resort management.
Nice.
So I did that.
(02:06):
Graduated, um.
I did community college first for abit like back at home where I grew
up and then moved to the mountains.
Um, and then I did end up workingin the ski industry for a bit.
So I did, um, I did an on mountain job.
It was a lot of fun.
I loved it.
Um, we would build these liketerrain parks and stuff, so.
(02:27):
Nice.
We would build, um, jumps and wehelped with the halfpipe and all that.
Um, a lot of time on mysnowboard, a really great job.
And then I ended up also gettingpromoted to supervisor, so
I was also learning to lead.
It was a fun job.
I really liked, I was starting to learnhow to drive those big machines and stuff.
Um, but it was a great job, but itwas five months out of the year, so I
(02:50):
was like, you know, I'm gonna do this.
And then I had to find a summer job.
So that's when, um, I had just gottenmarried and my husband was like,
you're really good at cooking, soyou need to, like, you at least you
just have to try it like you have.
He found me a couple line cook jobs.
He's like, just apply to these.
Like try it and then go back tothe ski resort in the winter.
Like there's nothing to lose.
So I was like, okay.
(03:11):
And that's was when I got myfirst line cook job, which is at
a really small mom and pop place.
Um.
Where there was like a two orthree person kitchen and I learned
everything like line prep, saute,grill, like I got such a well-rounded,
um, experience at that place.
Nice.
And then I did end up going backto the ski resort in the winter.
(03:34):
Um, and then at the end of that secondseason, like around the spring, I
was like, okay, for my summer job.
I wanna pick the busiestrestaurant in my town.
Like, where's a place where I'm gonnaget my ass kicked, where I'm really gonna
get a taste of this life and decide ifit's for me or if I'm not cut out for it.
And there's this one restaurantthat's just always busy.
(03:55):
They're the last ones open.
Like they're huge.
They're the biggest restaurant.
They're, they're just alwaysis a line out the door.
Um, and I was like, I'mgonna go work at that one.
And six years later, I'm the sous chef.
At that restaurant and training tobe exec chef at that restaurant.
So I stayed.
I loved it, and the rest is history.
Simon (04:14):
I love it.
Uh, I especially love the partof, I wanna go get my ass kicked.
Yeah.
Um, 'cause be, I'll be honest with you,I don't know if I ever, well, in the
beginning for me, when I was just gettinggoing, I, I was just trying to survive.
I didn't know what thehell I was doing at 16.
I remember those days where you,all of a sudden you become addicted
(04:37):
to that like feeling of go, go, go.
And just the adrenaline of it all.
I think the fact that you're a snowboarderkind of helps with that, right?
Yeah.
Just kind of pulls that towards you.
Um, okay.
So you find, you find home, as it were,six years later, you're a sous chef.
Uh, you know, I'm really interestedin that, in sort of that time of like.
(05:02):
I'm a line cook.
I'm a line cook.
I'm a sous chef.
How, how did that go?
How did that feel?
Give us some color to that.
Hanalei (05:11):
Yeah, so that's what my book's about.
Um, that's literally the entire,the entire thing basically
focuses on that process, right?
But it is, I kind of imagined in myhead like, okay, you're a line cook.
You're a line cook, and thenext day you get promoted.
You get a title, you're a sous chef, like.
I feel like that's kind of how I thoughtabout it before all this, like, oh,
(05:31):
you either have the title or you don't.
But I would say it was probablya two to three year process where
I wasn't really sure what it was.
And then finally in, um, like twoand a half years ago, I got promoted.
So I got the title.
I went from hourly to salary.
I had like, you know, it's official,but I felt like at that point,
like nothing actually changedbecause that was almost like.
(05:53):
The conclusion of a processthat had already been started
like two years before.
And then even after that, I wasstill growing into the role.
So like even within the last two yearswhere I'm like still a sous chef and
it's like I'm still, my job now is sodifferent from what it was two years ago,
and I have the same title, so it's like.
(06:14):
It's always learning and it's alwaysgrowing, and I think people need
to see leadership that way of like,um, I mean, I'm sure we'll get into
this in the whole episode, but likethere's a lot of philosophy about,
like, your title doesn't matter.
Like it's a, it's how peopleactually see you, right?
So it's like you have tokind of act a little bit.
More than what you're expected.
(06:35):
And you know, the wrong employer willtake advantage of you and then they won't
pay you more and they'll, they'll justkind of like work you to death because
you're ambitious and you wanna learn more.
But the right employer will take you underthe wing and say like, okay, I see you
want more, but for a short period of time,you're gonna have to be putting in that
work where it's, you don't have the titleand you might not have to pay yet, but
Simon (06:55):
Right.
Hanalei (06:55):
You just have to know that that's coming and know
that that's how you get there.
Simon (07:02):
I love it.
Um, I've never thought about this before,but as you were describing it, I was thi
I was kind of like imagining like theBoy Scouts, the Girl Scouts, and they
get, you get like the badge for eachlike, sort of thing that you accomplish
and the, the skill that you learn.
And I feel like it isn't, youknow, looking back it isn't.
(07:25):
It isn't necessarily like just oneday you fluke a switch and you, you're
the sous chef and it, and it works.
And however I've seen that and that'slike half of why I have a business now.
Yeah, because, because chefs,chefs get into their roles or sous
chefs get into their roles andnobody has taught them what to do.
Nobody has said here,this is how you lead.
(07:46):
Hey, this is how you get peopleto do what you want when you,
when they don't wanna, right.
Like it's, it's all those things.
So I love the, I actually like the factthat there was some development or you
feel that there was some developmentfrom, from that sort of maybe starting
point into, um, the moment where you got,were given the title and the salary and
you know, your life kind of turned off.
(08:07):
'cause that's what happened to me whenI first got my first sous chef job.
My wife was like, what?
Like, where are you?
Like, are you still alive?
I'm like, oh, I'm still alive.
I just don't live here anymore.
Yeah.
Um, so, and then I, I gotta say,I really dig the, the concept that
the job you have, it's the same job,but the job you have today isn't the
(08:29):
same job you had a couple years ago.
Can you tell us more abouthow, what, what that feel like?
How has that changed in your brain?
Um, and also before you answer thatquestion, it's that same question of.
You wrote the book around that sort offirst process of getting to the sous chef.
So yeah.
How would you say that kind ofeverything has changed since the book?
Hanalei (08:52):
Yeah, so the book has been out for four years and I was 23
when I wrote it and published it.
So it's been, it's been a while, but.
I technically, I'm, I still havelike the same job title, I guess.
Like I wasn't officially sous chef,but I was on, I was like the unofficial
sous chef at the time when it came out.
And even thinking, I think a lot of thelessons that I learned happened then,
(09:17):
and I, I wouldn't say that like I. I'velearned tons of new things since then.
It's more like I've been building on thosesame concepts and just continuing to build
and build a lot of the things I talk aboutsuch as like gaining people's respect.
And I talk about, um, learning to delegateand I talk about just like I. Trying to
deal with people that don't wanna listento you and like kind of stuff like that.
(09:38):
And I think, I think I wrote it ata really good time because a lot
of people are like, well, don'tyou wanna be further removed?
Like I was literally messaging someoneon Instagram the other day just about
like, oh, they also wanna write a memoir,but they were told that they were too
young or like that they had to waitseven years after the things happened.
And I was like, don'tlisten to anyone's advice.
Like if you wanna write your story,like write it even while you're
(09:58):
still in the middle of it because.
I think a lot of the things that Iwas learning, I was still processing
it all and like, and I write anafterward too, I'm like, I'm not
writing this book because I know it all.
I'm writing it because I'm still inthe thick of it and I'm still trying
to actively learn all this stuff.
And so it was so fresh, and that'swhy I think it offers a very different
perspective than a lot of other booksdo when it's like, I'm not saying
(10:21):
that one's better than the other.
It's like they're just different thingsto read, you know, different perspectives.
So.
I would say like, because I've evengone back and read it to think like,
what should I write a second book?
Or like, what should I add to it?
Or should I write like a, should Ipublish a version that has like a
(10:41):
forward from myself five years later?
But I was like, I don'tsee a lot of this stuff.
I'm still learning all of that stuff.
Like I'm still practicing it.
I'm still.
Learning how to gain people'srespect on the daily.
I'm still learn.
I'm better at delegating andway better at so many of the
things that I struggled with.
But it's the same stuff.
Like leadership is, it's difficult,but it's not that complicated.
(11:04):
You know?
It's, it's, it can seem complicated,but once you learn like the basics, you
just keep building on that and like.
Learning different people and learninglike, okay, so that person quit and now
you have another set of people and nowyou have to learn how to manage them.
And you have to learnlike what clicks for them.
And you have to learn.
You're learning ways to make thingsmore efficient and things that you've
(11:25):
done the same way for 10 years, you'relike, actually that's change how we
like, there's always learning, butat the end of the day, like it's the
same concepts, it's the same stuffthat you're putting into practice.
Simon (11:37):
Yeah.
Um, I. First of all, I, I'm, I'm gonna putmy hat in the Please write another book.
Right?
I think that, uh, as many people asI can think of that I've spoken to
about writing a book and that havewritten books, they're like, man,
there's always more stuff accumulatingthat will create that second book.
(12:01):
Um, I know that, uh.
I'm in the process of likesort of figuring out what
kind of book I wanna write.
I don't know that it'll be a memoir,but I think it's more along the lines
of like a kind of a, kind of a call ita no nonsense or a no bullshit version
of leadership guide for for chefs.
Yeah, because I've seen a bunch of 'emand I'm like, that was not written for us.
(12:26):
Yeah, like that was writtenfor somebody else, but it was
not written for the animals.
Hanalei (12:30):
Yeah, there's a lot of leadership books out there that are,
that are great and have good advice,but a lot of them are like in an
office setting or like Totally are.
They just don't, it's just very different.
Like I think you can maybe pick andchoose like certain concepts, but
at the end of the day, like kitchenleadership is just so different.
Like it's the kind of job where it's.
It's like physically and mentallydemanding, but like even if you're a
(12:53):
leader, a good chef or a good sous chefis still in the thick of it with, so
they're not just like standing on somethrone of barking orders or you're not
like sending emails and you're not likethe guy at the I'd write about this
too, like the guy at the constructionsite who, who just walks in a suit,
who just walks around with a clipboard.
Like imagine you're.
The guy, you know, you're the constructionproject manager or whatever, and you're
(13:15):
also with, with your hammer, and you'relike right next to the new guy putting
the nails in like right next to him.
And it's kind of, it's very differentfrom a lot of other industries, like
you're leading, but you're also like,you have to lead from the front.
Simon (13:29):
Yep.
Yep.
I, I mean, I. I worked for a FourSeasons resort and I was stunned
because I, I, our executive chef wasthis like prim and proper British guy.
Right.
And his chef coat was immaculateand he wore like the coolest
chef pants I've ever seen.
They were like tailored and like, helooked like some sort of freaking runway
(13:53):
model in, in these, in this whole thing.
And.
It didn't matter when the, when shitgot thick on the line, he would throw
on his apron and he was right there.
And yeah, always set him apart.
Was the fact that it didn'tmatter how busy he got, how dirty
or how like down in it he was.
He stayed like perfectly clean.
I was like, do you have like, yeah.
(14:14):
Are you like Teflon?
Is that, that's what I used to tell him.
I'm like, are you coded in Teflon?
'cause nothing gets on you.
Yeah.
And he's like, he's like,that's why I have my job.
And that's why you have your job.
Yeah.
And I was like, okay, okay.
It's true.
You know?
And he had, he had one, he had anexecutive sous chef, two restaurants,
executive sous chef, two restaurantsous chefs, a banquet chef and a
(14:37):
banquet sous-chef below him, right?
And so he had a full, huge brigade.
I mean, there was seven of us on the line.
Um, and that was just the hotline,that was the garge was crazy big.
And like, it was just amazing.
But it, I always loved the fact thatno matter how crazy it would get.
He would still, he would still pitch in.
Right.
That, that was real to me.
(14:57):
Yeah.
That's great.
Um, yeah, I think talking about like howyou build on the concepts of leadership,
I think it's, I think it's really amazingthat like people think that like once you
become the leader, then that's it, right?
Yeah.
You actually, you just gotta keep going.
Your office work and learning and, well,I mean, I, I did a lot of office work
(15:20):
in my later years, but I also like.
I made sure that there was alwayssomething that I was tied to.
Right?
Like yeah, absolutely.
I worked in one place where nomatter what, I made soup of the day.
Right?
Yeah.
Like I, I would clear, I wouldclear a section of my morning so
that I could go and I could makesoup and that no matter what, I
actually had my hands in something.
(15:42):
I don't know about you, but I did notget into the restaurant business to spend
all my time in a cramp little office.
I love being in thekitchen, out on the floor.
And if you're nodding your head rightnow, I want to introduce you to an
amazing company called Starfish.
Look, I've gotten to know their CEOJordan recently and what they're
(16:03):
building really impresses me.
They're using AI to read your Pand L and they're going to email
you actionable insights every week.
So you can lower yourcosts and increase revenue.
Best part is you don't have tospend time digging through your
P and L's pouring over reportsin that cramped little office.
(16:23):
Starfish is going to do that foryou so you can get back to the
part of the business that you love.
If you're interested, go totheir website, use starfish.
com that's U S E starfish.
com and tell them Simon sent you.
Hanalei (16:39):
Yeah.
Because that's when you see other stuff,like sometimes I'll task myself with like.
Prepping for a special when it's like,I could delegate this out, but I'm
like, I need something that will anchorme in the kitchen for the next few
hours so that I'm seeing other things.
I'm, I see the prep guy nextto me doing something wrong.
I just saved a whole batch of pork.
Or you know, it's like,
Simon (16:56):
right,
Hanalei (16:57):
it's a lot of chefs like you can't, you have office work,
but you can't just like hide forfour or five hours at a time.
And like, even if you have a greatcrew, it's, it's good to be up there,
even if they just see you and thenthey respect you more and they.
They can ask you for help.
Simon (17:15):
Yep.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, I mean that's, I think that's what.
Like you said, that's what sets usapart from other industries is that
we're, no matter how far you go along,you're still kind of down in it.
Yeah.
Um, able, able to do the thing.
And I think that that adds credibility.
Right.
You know, I, I re, I recall aninteraction with a young sous chef,
(17:37):
and at the time I was probably.
48, 49 years old, and he's like 23.
And, and I, I looked ragged.
I, I had a long week, youknow, it was almost my Friday.
I was almost done.
And he's like, you look like shit.
And I said, well, okay, I, I'll take that.
I said, but here's the deal.
(17:57):
Like, you know, I said something else.
I was like, here's the deal.
Like, I, I can do anything you can do.
And he goes, ah, no, I can, you know,uh, I can move way faster than you.
All these things.
And I said, okay, you're right.
But here's the deal with all theexperience that I've got, I. I
can stand next to you and I can,I can do everything you can do.
(18:18):
There's one huge difference.
At the end of the night, you're gonnago home, take a quick shower, and go
to the, go to the bar or the club, andI'm gonna go home and ice my knees.
I mean, I'm gonna take a coupleof pain pills and, and I'm
gonna drink a beer on my couch.
That's the difference I said, but Yeah.
But at the end of the day, likeour bodies still know how to do it.
(18:40):
Right.
Like you can, you can getolder and you can still do it.
And that's the fun of it.
Like there's, there's stillsome, yeah, there's still some
adrenaline to be had, for sure.
Yeah, for sure.
Um, so are you still theonly woman in the kitchen?
Hanalei (18:53):
No, there's, it fluctuates, but, um, there's always been like two or I,
there was like short periods of time whereit was only me, but that wouldn't last.
Like I feel like we've alwayshad at least three, or we're a
big kitchen, now we're like 20.
So during peak season,we're over 20 cooks total.
Um, right now there's four women,which is on the bigger side
(19:17):
of the amount that we've had.
Like I think the most we've everhad was like five, which is good.
Like a lot of places.
Five women out of 20.
That's a lot for a kitchen.
I love
Simon (19:26):
it.
Hanalei (19:27):
Especially when we're all on the same shift.
Everything's so clean.
Everything
Simon (19:31):
I was about to say, so, so my experience with that is like
when I would, when I'd be staffingrestaurants, uh, and at one point I had.
I have four under my, my purview, and Ihad this one, and it always, like, the
lunch line would always become all women.
Like it would just go, just likeyou described, like ebb and flow.
(19:53):
Yeah.
But, uh, we would get to this place andit was like when I would cover, when I
would cover for the chef in charge of thatrestaurant, I, it was almost always Monday
and Tuesday mornings were like all ladies.
Yeah.
And it wa and then there was no drama.
There was no ego to it.
Everybody helped everybody else.
Um, and things were cleaner andeverybody remembered to, like, I
(20:16):
didn't have to say, Hey, let's throw aquick sweep and get the, get the floor
looking beautiful so that we can getinto the next hour or two of service.
They were just like the littletiny ladies just running around,
sweeping things up, keeping it.
I was like, this is amazing.
Yeah.
And I try to get the boys to do it, like,you know, and, and it just never quite,
Hanalei (20:33):
it's like they do it, but they don't.
You have to tell them to do it.
Simon (20:36):
Right.
Some,
Hanalei (20:36):
I don't like to generalize.
Like I just started training thisone guy on the line and he cleans,
I don't have to tell him to clean.
I'm like, oh my God.
I always tell him like, you're amazing.
You clean after yourself.
I, I said, everyone, look,he cleans after yourself.
It's one of those things that's hard totrain for anyone, but it's, I don't know,
it's kind of, and about like the drama andego stuff, like I found, 'cause sometimes
(20:58):
we'll have these conversations about like.
It's like men create drama andactually like women do too.
And when you have a mixedcrew, they, there's drama with
each other and there's drama.
Like I've seen drama from women anddrama from men and I've seen it's
like, and it's just part of work.
It's not even thing, it's likepeople, and there's always gonna be
gossip and there's always gonna be.
(21:20):
And that's kind of what keepsit a little bit exciting.
You know, I think some of the stuffexciting that's, that's, yeah.
Some of the stuff you hear, you know,it sucks to deal with, but like a
year later you're like, rememberthat one guy who blah, blah, blah.
It's like, oh yeah.
And you kind of laugh
Simon (21:36):
about
Hanalei (21:36):
it.
Simon (21:38):
Um, so I don't know about your kitchen, but in a lot of the kitchens I
worked in, I always got a kick outta thefact that there'd be things that like.
You might have learned somewhereelse and then you come to, to
this kitchen and all of a sudden,no, no, we don't do it that way.
We do it this way.
You got any of those like, yeah,
Hanalei (21:59):
I haven't worked in that many kitchens.
You know, my experience is kindof limited 'cause I found a place
early on where I just kind of stuckto and went through the ranks.
Um, but yeah, a lot of times peoplecome in with a lot of experience
and it's still, it's harder thantraining someone new sometimes because
Simon (22:18):
Yeah,
Hanalei (22:18):
to be like, actually.
We don't do that.
We, we do that this way here.
Like, and so we have to treatthem how to do it, how we do it.
And so it, I think thereis a lot of difference.
And maybe one isn't evenbetter than the other.
It's more just like, I'm not gonnachange what I'm teaching you just
because you think you know a better way.
Like I'm, I'm gonna teach you whatthe executive chef tells me to do.
(22:40):
And, um, it's, that's my job.
It's, I, I show you how he wants it done.
I'm, I'm not here to like listen to.
I like to listen to peopleand like sometimes people have
great ideas where they're like,Hey, this way's more efficient.
I'm like, huh, you're right.
Like, there have been moments where itis, but I think if it's, you know, those,
those are the exception and not therule, you know, the typically it's like
(23:01):
if I'm training you, I'm training you.
If you have, I, I like people tofeel like they can have input.
Even tell me how they didit at their last place.
Like, I, I don't care.
A lot of chefs joke about like, oh, don'ttell me how you did it at your last place.
But I was like, sometimes I'd liketo hear a different perspective and
that doesn't mean I'm gonna do it.
I just like to hear these things.
And you know, especially ifyou're from a different country,
(23:24):
I like to hear like how, how it'sdifferent there versus in America.
Like Totally.
Things like that.
Simon (23:30):
I mean, I think, I think that, you know, and I, I, I guess
I would love for somebody who'slistening to this to hear that like.
It happens all the time everywhere, right?
We, we, we learn away and then wego and like, oh, my way is better.
The reality is, wherever you are.
Right now.
That's the way.
(23:50):
Yeah.
Right.
Exactly.
And I think that you, you gotta learnthat way and, and understand it and fully
embrace it and then like then have thatconversation of, yeah, hey, I understand
exactly what we do, but how about this?
And I think that, yeah, some of that,some of that kind of stuff is trying,
you have to prove your train trainable.
Hanalei (24:10):
Yeah.
You have to prove train trainablefirst and then, but even.
For me, going from starting as a linecook to now having say over specials on
the menu and like having the respect fromthe executive chef to be like, I know
you have this idea, but I have this idea.
Then we kind of come to anagreement, but that's, that takes
time and that's an earned, right.
It's not like, just because I canquestion the executive chef's methods.
(24:35):
Okay, I've been here six years andI'm literally the sous chef, like.
At the end of the day, if thechef disagrees with me, he is
like, no, I'm gonna do it my way.
That then that's how it works.
'cause he's still my boss.
So it's like, but I, if someone comesin on their first day and like I
work with those people and they just,they never last, they just don't,
like, I don't even need to fire them.
Like they just don't last.
Simon (24:57):
They fire themselves.
Hanalei (24:58):
Yeah.
Basically.
Simon (25:01):
Yeah.
I mean, I think, uh.
I, I've got a client right now and wejust had this long, like, God, it was
like two hour long discussion withhim and his managers around fit right.
And, and finding the hiring for fitrather than hiring for the body, you know?
Yeah.
And, and it's hard nowadays.
Um.
(25:21):
I, I don't know if you know thehistory of this, but somewhere around
2006, 2007, the culinary schools,they just, like the culinary schools
for profit, just started exploding.
Right there were cordon blue everywhere.
I. And so somewhere around the yearsof 2007 to I would say 2016 or 17, like
(25:43):
you just turn around and everybody hadgone to culinary school and everybody
thought they were gonna be the chef.
And there's just cooks everywhere.
Yeah.
And then somehow, right about thetime that you, like 2018, 2019, like
somebody started to turn off the faucet.
I, it was weird.
And now those culinary schools arefolding, those for-profit school schools
are folding all over the country.
(26:05):
Yeah.
And so it's like we're now in this timepost covid and I just realized the other
day, I'm like, we're five year almost.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Five years from the back down.
I vividly remember
Hanalei (26:15):
five years ago.
Yeah.
This
Simon (26:17):
past weekend.
Yeah.
It's wild.
Yeah.
And, and now it's like you look aroundand like, ah, I don't know how it is
where you are, but boy where I am.
Everybody I know is like,you know, when he cooks.
Do you know any cooks?
Yeah.
I'm like, 'cause it's,it's tough, you know?
Yeah.
Um, I, I think dishwashers havea better chance of becoming
(26:40):
cooks now than they used to.
Yeah.
It's just hiring, hiringdishwashers is hard too.
Hanalei (26:44):
Yeah.
Simon (26:46):
Um, so I. I don't know if it's a easy question to answer or
not, but like, what is, what isthe, what's the plan going forward?
Is it hang out where you are and,and be, and you said you were
training to be the executive chef.
I think that's amazing.
Yeah.
Um, what's, what's thefuture kind of hope for you?
Hanalei (27:09):
Yeah.
I don't know.
'cause if you asked me five yearsago, like I wouldn't have said.
To be a chef, like, I guess five,six, I guess six years ago I was
still in the ski industry and you'dask me, I would've said like, I
wanna be a manager in a ski resort.
Like I wanna be outside every day.
And I wouldn't have even said chef.
So it's always interesting thinking aboutthe future and like how things can change.
(27:29):
Um, but I would say my short term planis definitely to stick around and be
exec chef and definitely stick, youknow, I'm not the kind of person who's
gonna do that for a year and then quit.
It's like I. I'm gonna stick with itfor a little bit and then I'm gonna
see, like, you know, I, I don't know.
I mean, I feel like private chefingis an awesome thing that I've, I've
(27:51):
looked into, but it's gonna have itsown challenges and its own things.
Mm-hmm.
You know, a lot of peoplesay, yeah, just go to private.
You make way more moneywith way less effort.
But it's like you have to create yourown, you have to market yourself.
You have to create your own clients.
If you're not getting, you know,I get my salary no matter what.
Even if we do 20 covers at lunch,which is like absolutely nothing.
(28:12):
Like I get my salary, but it's like,and um, we're always busy and I don't
do anything to contribute to that.
Like we're just, we're busy.
Like when before I workedthere, we were always busy.
So it's like it's, there'redifferent challenges.
'cause like I've had, yeah, I do acouple private chefing events like.
For friends and like off, you know,and I, I know what I could make
(28:32):
in one day versus my paycheck as asous chef and how much work that is.
But it's also like there's, there's thisdifferent challenge, you know, like as a
private chef, I was kind of thinking aboutlike, oh, like if I serve food right now
at the restaurant and a guest doesn't likeit, like I don't see them face to face.
It's not me personally.
(28:54):
Like it's, I still feel badand I don't ever want that to
happen, but like it does happen.
But then as a private chef,it's like it's only you.
Like you have nothing else.
There is literally zero buffer.
There is zero.
Like it is only a hundredpercent accountability.
Like you can't blame anything else.
You can't blame anyone else.
Like there's literally no one to blame.
Simon (29:13):
There is nothing else.
So
Hanalei (29:14):
that was kind of what I was like thinking about the other day.
'cause I was like.
Because I've done, I've done a coupleweddings and like things like that and
it's always been great, but I don't do 'emthat often 'cause it's like on the side.
But it's like, man, that would be toughif like, they didn't like their food.
Like what?
You know, like that would bereally, that would be really,
really difficult, you know?
'cause there's literally nothing.
Yeah.
Simon (29:34):
You know,
I've got a friend in Australiaand her business is weddings.
That's it.
Yeah.
And she does one event at a time.
Yeah.
And she has a super tight, tiny crew.
Yeah.
And they, she, I'm like,how do you do that?
She's like, people come to me ifthey want like the next level.
(29:56):
Yeah.
She says, and, and she, shepromotes most of her business.
Like most of her, her business comes rightoff Instagram because she's, she's got
a good deal, good relationship with herphotographer who just like inundates her
with, with content that she can put on.
Yeah, on Instagram.
I mean it, my advice from, fromone cook to the other is like, keep
(30:20):
doing that, that you just described,like keep doing those things.
And over time with consistency,like everything else, right?
Like, you'll know, like there'll,there'll be a moment Yeah.
Where, where there'll be enoughdemand and you'll be going, huh?
This, this actuallycould, could be a thing.
Right?
Yeah.
But I think that's the, that's how youbuild that sort of organic business.
(30:43):
Yeah.
And, and just, and, and also.
Like hone the craft ofit, you know what I mean?
Yeah.
It's like, um, I, I always equatelike big new projects to like getting
a 50 pound bag of onions, throwingit on the table and grabbing a new
knife out of my bo out of my bag, andgoing, okay, I'm gonna cut the whole
bag of onions with this new knife.
(31:05):
And like, the first 10minutes are murderously awful.
Right?
The knife doesn't feel quite right, youknow, and, and like, oh, okay, onions.
And then by the time you get tothe end of that 50 pound bag.
Yeah, you're flying.
Yeah.
You know, so I think that being ableto get really comfortable with like,
really ground in and comfortable anddoing individual events, um, at some
(31:29):
point you're gonna go, wow, this is easy.
And people are coming to me becausemy reputation has gotten so great.
And I think that that's.
That's what a lot of folks who they,they see what exactly what you described.
They see the money, they seelike, oh, the freedom of it.
Well, freedom means freedomto fall on your face too.
Yeah,
Hanalei (31:50):
definitely.
Simon (31:51):
Yeah.
So that's my advice.
Take it or leave it.
Um, but I mean, I think, I thinkthere's, if you're a good cook,
people will come after a while.
Um, it just means do an an andsituation instead of an OR situation.
Hanalei (32:04):
Yeah, exactly.
It's hard to do anything else when, whenyou're restaurant sous chef or executive
chef, there isn't really much room for,
Simon (32:12):
there isn't
Hanalei (32:13):
anything like, the fact that I even have like the Instagram and
book side gig is like, that's enough.
Simon (32:18):
You just teed me up.
There you go.
Yeah, I was about to say like,you know, it, it's a, it's a fun,
modern world when you can thinkabout, uh, you can think about.
A sous chef who has time to maintainan Instagram, I maintain an Instagram
account and I'm not very good at it.
Um, and it's a lot of work.
(32:38):
Yeah, it is.
You know.
Um, so how would you say that that,like, how, how does the, the sales
of the book, the, the following onInstagram, how does that sort of
feed back into your regular life?
Daily life?
Pardon me?
(32:59):
Um, you know, as far as what, what kindof influence does any of that have on
kind of how you go about your regular day?
Hanalei (33:07):
Yeah, I feel like it's, I wanna say it's separate and intertwined
at the same time in different ways.
Like, I would say that it's separate whereit's like when I'm at work, I'm at work,
I'm not, I. Like a lot of people come onmy page and accuse me of, they only hired
you 'cause you're famous on Instagram.
I'm like, uh, I started there in 2019and I started my Instagram in 2020.
(33:27):
Like, this is the math's not math thing.
Like, stop it with your falseattitude because you're jealous of me.
Like, stop it.
But yeah, people come on my pages, butI'm, I keep them separate as in like,
work is work Instagram is Instagram,I'm, I'm a restaurant sous chef first.
Instagram takes the backseat when,when it needs to, you know, like I'm
(33:49):
not, I'm not this like influencer chef.
Like I hate the word in influencer.
Like someone, someone elsethe other day said like, oh,
influencer's basically a slur.
I'm like, yes it is.
You call me influencer,I'll be very offended.
I'm like, that's funny.
Influencer.
I don't know.
It was just in my mind like the wordinfluencers, like wanna be, you know,
it's like, 'cause a lot of people dofake, they just get on Instagram and
(34:12):
like take a selfie and like fake.
They're not the real deal.
You know, a lot of people online are like,maybe they're even like a good home chef,
but like, they call themselves chef andthey have a bunch of cookbooks out and
like, yeah, maybe their food's good, butlike they have no idea about the life.
You know, like they've never workedin a restaurant, they've never
had to grind it out in the line.
(34:33):
Like, and it's like, you know,there's a certain respect to be had
for people who make these videos.
'cause it's a lot ofwork to make videos too.
So it's like, yep.
You, you won't catch mecalling myself influencers.
Simon (34:46):
Okay.
So I gotta share, I gotta share with yousomething that I find really Yeah, I,
I, I completely agree about that word.
Yeah.
Um, and so two, I guess two things.
I sometimes feel that way of in thiscurrent, like in right now, 2020, maybe
the last year about the word chef.
Yeah.
I'm like, everybodygrabs that word, right?
(35:07):
Yeah.
Like, I'm like, do you understand that?
I like, I tell people, I'mlike, do you understand?
I spent 10 years as a line cookbefore I ever got a sous chef job.
Yeah.
And then I was a sous chef for.
I don't know, five, six years.
And granted, my, my path is differentthan everybody else's, and I don't impose
that structure on anybody else, but like,I worked hard to get where I got to.
(35:29):
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
And for me, for, for me, I, youknow, in my late thirties and
forties and now fifties, I lookaround and I'm like, wait, chef.
Chief, like you're not a chef.
You might be a good cook.
And I love that.
Like I, I aspire to be a great cook.
Yeah.
That's the goal for me at the end ofthe day, almost with anything, right?
(35:50):
Like I want, I want people to.
I don't necessarily want people tolook at me, look at my gravestone
and go, oh, he was an amazing chef.
I want him to go, thatguy could fucking cook.
Yeah.
That's what matters.
That's how we connect.
Like, that's how it all works.
Yeah.
Um, so I, I feel you like when youtalk about influencer being a dirty
word, you know, like some days thereare days for me and I, quite honestly,
(36:12):
that's why my podcast and my consultingbusiness is called Culinary Mechanic.
'cause it's, it's in a, it's away for me to like remove, like.
Yeah, I take things apart.
I put 'em back together and theyrun better than they did yesterday.
Hanalei (36:26):
Yeah, you fixed it,
Simon (36:28):
right?
Yeah.
Um, but the funniest part about sayinginfluencer is a dirty word is that when
I try to describe, people ask me all thetime, well, like, what is leadership?
And for me the easiest, likemost straightforward definition
is expansion of influence.
Yeah.
And so it's like, okay, wait, I wantto be, I wanna expand my influence.
(36:52):
And then people then startto sully that, right?
Yeah.
With influencer.
Um, yeah.
It's, it's a funny world.
Um, yeah.
It's that kind of thing that just alwaysmakes me kind of scratch my head and
go, the thing that we try to do, thething that we try to be other people
somehow managed to fuck it up for us.
Hanalei (37:12):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I. Influencer as like a, you're onsocial media and like, I think it,
it could be good or bad, right?
Like
Simon (37:22):
Totally.
Hanalei (37:23):
I think it, in the last couple years, it's definitely gained
a negative kind of connotation.
Like when I think ofinfluencer, I think of like.
Like someone with a duck faceand like taking selfies and
like not really doing anything.
Like, just kind of like being, like tryingto sell you a bunch of things and like use
my discount code and like, I don't know.
When I think of influencer, like I thinkof, I think of people with a lot of ego
(37:45):
who think they're all that who walk intoa restaurant and say, give me free food.
I have x number of followers.
Like, that's kind of what comes tomy mind when I think of influencers.
So when it's not, it's not a bad thing.
If you have influence.
Like, I definitely have influencebecause people come into my dms
every day like, Hey, you inspiredme to go apply for that cook job.
Hey, I, I read your book andI'm gonna ask for the promotion.
(38:07):
Like, like people, I influence people.
Like there's no denying that influencethat you might have on people's lives.
Like even just the people that,even if you don't have social
media and you just know people inlife and everyone is influenced
by things or everyone influencesother people to do certain things.
So it's like.
Yeah, I guess, I guess theterm influencers has kind of
(38:29):
become this complicated thing.
It's, it's dirty.
Simon (38:31):
I'm, it's dirty.
Yeah.
I'm with you a hundred percent.
Hanalei (38:34):
But I guess, yeah, going back to the original question, which
was like, work and social mediabeing kind of separate, but they
are intertwined in the way thatwork inspires what I post on social
media because, um, hold on a second.
(38:56):
Yeah, work definitelyinspires what I post.
'cause every, almost everythingI post was inspired by
something that happened at work.
So it's not like, it's not likeI'm just sitting there on my
couch, like coming up with ideas.
Like I definitely, they're veryinterconnected where it's like I
wouldn't have one without the other.
Like I wouldn't, you know, if Iwent to full-time influencer and,
(39:17):
and made money off Lady Line cook.
And then I quit my job.
I would probably just, therewould be no more content.
So I was like, I don'tknow if I could do that.
'cause there, what am I gonna post about?
It's like, yeah.
So it's interesting 'cause it's like Itry to keep them separate and I don't
even like go around telling peopleto follow me, but somehow I've shown
up on all of my coworkers for you,Paige, and everyone follows me now.
(39:38):
But I, I didn't tell them to like evenI learned like recently that like.
My general manager popped upand like, people you may know,
and it said, follow back.
And I was like, allthis time I had no idea.
I was like, I'm glad that what Ipost is like, I wasn't like, oh my
God, the general manager follows me.
I was like, okay, there's nothing that Ipost that's like that I regret posting.
(40:00):
Right.
So I guess it's, I keep, Itry to keep them separate,
but at the end of the day, I.
Simon (40:09):
That, that, that makes a lot of sense.
Yeah, makes a lot of sense.
Um, are you familiarwith a guy, what is it?
It's called, his podcast iscalled 86, giving a Shit.
No, it's a guy outta New York Cityand he uses different names, but he
basically like, does almost a daily rant.
Like sometimes it's every day.
(40:29):
Um, and it's like six.
10 minutes long at the most.
And, and he'll just like go offon the things that frustrate him.
And usually it's about work andlike how, how people are stupid.
Yeah.
And or, or like how line cook, you know,he just, he talks about, talks about
dishwasher, mafias and, you know, likethe, all the dishwashers are related and
(40:51):
you can't get 'em, you can't get Yeah.
Anything to happen and allthese, it's just, I don't know.
It's, it's worth a listen.
'cause he's, yeah.
The guy's freaking hysterical.
Um, and he refers to therestaurant as a bank?
Yeah, because he's, he's, I'mpretty sure he is like right down
on Wall Street and he is like, sohe, so like when he is everything,
(41:12):
he tries to kind of talk in code.
But when you listen to the intro to it.
He talks about the fact that he startedit so that he could have a place to
vent and he encourages his coworkersto listen because he's probably
not gonna be able to say the thingsthat he says on his podcast at work.
Yeah.
(41:32):
So I continue to believe andsay that, um, it's a weird wild
place, this world we live in.
Yeah, definitely.
Gosh, uh, we coveredsome cool ground here.
Thank you so much Yeah.
For coming and playing with me.
Um, I really appreciate it.
So, in the show notes, I'm gonna makesure that everybody can find you, um,
(41:53):
from the website being Lady Line Cook.
Um, I'll make sure the, your IGand YouTube are there as well.
, to all you out there, thank you forcoming and playing and hanging out
in our little sandbox of the world,and, um, please continue to keep
listening and following and liking.
Um, let's see, Spotify, apple,YouTube, all the things and stuff.
(42:15):
Um, and I'll see you next time
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