June 24, 2025 • 46 mins
Still soaking your wood chips? You’re doing it wrong.
In this fire-breathing episode of Culinary Mechanic, Simon sits down with Barbecue Hall of Famer and grilling myth-buster Meathead to dismantle decades of backyard lore—and rebuild it with science, precision, and damn good meat.
They cover everything from reverse sear technique to the truth about charcoal, beer-can chicken, and why thermometers matter more than knife skills. Meathead doesn’t just grill—he educates, demystifies, and takes no prisoners when it comes to getting it right.
If you think good cooking is about “feel,” this episode might hurt your feelings—but it’ll make your food better.
Connect with Meathead
Website: https://amazingribs.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/amazingribs/
Book: The Meathead Method
Connect with Simon
Email: simon@culinarymechanic.com
Book a Call: https://calendly.com/culinarymechanic/discovery
Website: https://www.culinarymechanic.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You're listening toHeritage Radio Network.
I.
From kitchen chaos to well-oiled machines.
Get ready for newfangledtechnology and old school Know-how
(00:21):
stories and a good bit of fun.
I'm Simon, and this iscalled Area Mechanic.
Simon (00:31):
Joining me today is Meathead, author of the Meathead Method.
Meathead.
Welcome to Culinary Mechanic.
Well, thank you.
It's what?
Pleasure to be here.
All right.
Um, it's not every day I getsomebody who's been on the New
York Times bestseller list.
, You know, let's, let's press on thegas right away and just say how,
(00:54):
like, gimme the origin story, man.
How did meathead come about?
Meathead (00:59):
Oh, geez.
Um.
My dad came back from World WarII and opened a butcher shop.
Um, he, he, well actually firsthe went to NYU and he got a degree
in, um, uh, meat technology.
Then he opened a butcher shop.
So, you know, cooking's alwaysbeen in and around the family.
(01:21):
He was not a chef or a, a cook, althoughwe did actually, now that I think of
it, he did open a restaurant, one.
Once didn't last long.
Uh, neither did the butcher shop,but I loved hanging around the grill
with him, you know, uh, the smelland, you know, it might've let me
have a little beer along the way.
And, uh, his specialty was flank steak.
And, uh, he, he, oh, wow.
(01:42):
How got It was great.
And, uh, yeah, I got to college and,uh, because I could cook a little.
Um, my roommates, I had, youknow, three roommates in a
apartment just off of the campus.
I went to University of Florida, um,and, uh, you know, they asked me to do a
lot of the cooking and fortunately, ourapartment had a grill right out the back.
(02:05):
You know, one of thoselum cast aluminum things.
It was a, a u-shaped apartmentcomplex, and they had grills scattered
around on the, uh, grounds there.
And we were right in front of one.
So I grilled a lot and uh, I cookeda lot and I got a job at a BC Liquors
in Florida and got deep into wine.
(02:27):
I eventually, uh, moved to Chicago.
Where I was the wine buyer andconsultant for a chain of stores,
foremost liquors, 120 stores.
Um, the official wine buyer'sname was Madeline Sherry.
That was me.
I was Madeline.
And, uh, funny, uh, Iwas into it in a big way.
And when, um, Ruth Theon Church, thevery first wine critic in the country
(02:51):
who wrote a regular weekly wine columnfor the Chicago Tribune when she retired.
Um, they held a search and I got the job.
Um, and I, so I was the wine criticfor the Chicago Tribune for a while.
Then I launched a wine magazinecalled International Wine Review,
which I sold in the year 2000.
And that is the year Iswitched to solid food
(03:16):
and I got to cooking a lot.
And in 2005 I launched, uh, the website,amazing ribs.com and it was amazing ribs.
Because I didn't expectit to become a big deal.
Uh, my neighbor was a butcherand we were barking at each other
about who made the best ribs.
So we had a little cookoffwith our wives as judges, and
they wisely called it a draw.
(03:38):
But I beat him.
I know I did.
And, uh.
Cool.
And, and, and, and before that I startedlooking for ribs, recipes on the internet.
We're talking 2004, 2005.
There wasn't much of aninternet in those days.
And uh, no, it was not organizedthere, there was no Google,
um, uh, Yahoo's search enginewas the biggest and the best.
(04:03):
And you know, it was just likegoing to the library and all
the books were on the floor.
There was no real organization to it.
But somehow or other, when Googlelaunched, they took a shine to my
site and, uh, I started adding toit beyond ribs, uh, brisket and
steaks and burgers, and took off.
It's now.
By far the most popular barbecueand grilling website in the world
(04:24):
with over 2000 pages, free pagesthat are cooking and science and
myth busting and product reviews.
And uh, and then we have a. A paidportion of the website called the
Pitmaster Club, which is phenomenal.
We've got 120 broadcast qualityinstructional videos from Tuffy Stone
(04:49):
and all the top pit masters are in there.
And, um, it's, you know, it'sbeen a, it's been a ride.
Uh, I've got Clint Twell,uh, my right hand man.
He's very well known and respected.
Got a guy who does nothing but.
Review grills and smokers full-time.
We don't sell any, by the way.
I'm gonna put my
Simon (05:09):
application
Meathead (05:10):
in.
I do that.
Yeah, I hear that a lot.
I hear that.
And we got another guy,he is electrical engineer.
He is not full-time, but he doesall of our thermometer reviews.
We have a couple of hundredreviews of thermometers.
So if you're shopping to replacethat old rust bucket, come on down.
It's free.
Um, a database of severalhundred grills and smokers.
Uh.
(05:31):
And, uh, max, really,max Good is his name.
He does a great job.
I mean, really dives deep.
I mean, he tries to break thesethings and, uh, uh, it's not just,
and because we don't sell them,we don't pull punches, you know?
I mean, right.
He'll, he'll, he'll, he'll, he'll, he'll,he'll call something a clunker if it is.
And, uh.
(05:52):
I guess that's, that, that'sthe, that's the whole story.
Oh, I forgot something very important.
Just, uh, about three or fouryears ago, I was inducted into the
Barbecue Hall of Fame, somethingabout which I am very proud.
There are only 40 living membersof the Barbecue Hall of Fame.
And, uh, if you're into barbecue andgrilling, you probably know all of them.
(06:14):
And, uh, it's quite an honor.
Simon (06:17):
Right on, um.
I mean, I got a chance to, todig into this book and I mean,
I, I'm a chef with 30 plus yearsexperience and I, I loved it, man.
I, there was a couple momentshonestly, where I was like,
huh, I don't think I knew that.
You know, I mean, there's a, there'sa good, good bit of the science piece
that really got my juices going.
(06:40):
Um, you know, we, you mentioned the grillsand you mentioned the, the, the smokers.
Um.
You know, what, what are the, whatare a couple of the, let's get out,
let's start with the easy stuff, right?
What are a couple of those, a coupleof those essential tools for you,
um, that really sort of make it,make there's tools and skills.
Meathead (07:02):
Two, two, absolutely essential skills.
Number two is what most chefs will callnumber one, but I think it's number
two, and that is a great sharp knife.
Um, there's no substitute forhaving a great sharp knife.
Um, and if you can afford multiple,you know, have a pairing knife,
(07:22):
have a chef's knife, but a chef'sknife is the single most important.
You can do almost everything with it.
Um, I'm real fond of my, um,inexpensive Rapala Phil Egging knife
bought it Bass Pro for like 20 bucks.
But it's wicked sharp and it's reallyflexible, so I can work around bones.
(07:44):
Um, so I, you know, I, I thinkknives are really crucial.
My number one most important thing,thermometers cooking is all about heat.
Cooking is all about temperature.
A perfect steak we know is whata stake is most tender and most
juicy at one 30 to 1 35 Fahrenheit.
(08:07):
And we know that because there's gGizmo called the Warner Bratman machine,
which is like an artificial tooth,and it presses down on the meat and
measures how much resistance is there.
And there's other devicesthat measure the moisture.
So at around 1 30, 1 35, you'll getyour most tender and most juicy steak.
How do you know you're there?
(08:27):
You don't have to cut into itbecause you really can't tell
by cutting into it the light.
Affects it.
I mean, incandescent light'sdifferent than fluorescent light,
different than LEDs, um, uh, sunlight.
Uh, and, and the meat changescolor with exposure to oxygen.
So cutting into it is highly deceptive.
(08:51):
Um, what you need is a goodinstant read thermometer.
Here I got, I happen to have here.
My favorite.
This is the fireboard.
Nice.
And you can see it's got a probe.
Yep.
And that probe goes into the centerof the meat and tells you, and
(09:12):
excuse me, it's highly accurate.
Um, it's accurate within adegree or two at the most.
And one second.
Reading two seconds atthe most really fast.
That one's 150 bucks.
Right.
But, um, I don't have w with me,but I, I, there is, there is one
that's really good that takes fiveseconds and is accurate with one or
(09:36):
two, um, degrees and costs 15 bucks.
Right?
It's by Thermo Pro.
They're both available on Amazon.
They're really, so you need an instantread thermometer, not just to get optimum
doneness on a steak, and God knows howmany times you, you know, in the old
days, you'd cook a steak and serve itto the table and your boss is over for
(09:59):
dinner and the steak is overcooked.
That's really embarrassing, but muchmore important is poultry chicken,
which is, yeah, I mean, a couple ofyears ago, consumer reports did a test.
They bought 300 chicken breasts and90% of them had pathogenic bacteria.
(10:19):
Now pathogenic bacteria are allkilled at a hundred sixty, a
hundred sixty five degrees, right?
So you gotta cook chicken to a hundredsixty, a hundred sixty five degrees.
How do you know digital therm thermometer?
Um, so it is the single most importanttool, and I know listening out there.
(10:40):
There's a bo bunch of oldknuckle dragers thermometer.
Um, you do.
Um, and, uh, you need itfor safety and for quality.
And if you're not usingone, you're not cooking.
Wow.
Simon (10:54):
I tell you, I think I, it, it is one of those things.
It's like, oh, I can do it without it.
Sure, but why bother?
That's the way I've alwayslooked at it, you know?
Now, um, if
Meathead (11:05):
you're the chef at Morton Steakhouse.
And you're cooking the same steak, samethickness from the same herd every night.
Then you can possibly tell by poking it.
But I gotta tell you all thecookbooks that say, poke your hand.
My hand is a lot different thansomebody who exercises regularly.
(11:30):
And file mignon is a lotdifferent than sirloin.
You cannot tell by poking it.
You can't tell by cutting into it.
You need a thermometer.
Get over it.
If you're not, if, if you areone of those knuckle dragers.
Simon (11:47):
I love that term.
Well, I'll tell you theone thing I can tell you.
Having worked in some corporate, I workedfor Morton's for a very short time.
I worked for a number of other,uh, corporate restaurants and
they're using thermometers.
So you're, you're on the right track.
I'm good.
Good.
I can tell you, um.
You know, one of the thing that is,that is really fun about your book is
(12:10):
that you are throwing out some, you'rethrowing pages that are like, debunking
a myth here and debunking a myth there.
Uh, you know, let's, let's getdown to what do you think are
some of the big ones that people,
Meathead (12:25):
well, you know,
Simon (12:26):
espouse and then all of a sudden let's, let's bust them.
Let's pause for a second.
If you're serious about building a kitchenthat leads from the top runs on systems
and actually feels good to work in, makesure you're following culinary mechanic.
This show is all about helping youlead better, scale smarter, and
stop white knuckling your business.
(12:47):
And if you're ready to dig in deeper,you'll find a link in the show
notes to connect with me directly.
Meathead (12:52):
First of all, there are a lot of myths out there.
And that's because I learned frommy dad and he learned from his dad.
And you learned from your dadand he learned from his dad.
And so what we thought weknew about cooking in 1900
keeps getting passed on down.
But this is 2025.
Mm-hmm.
And we have a.
Instant read thermometers.
(13:13):
Two seconds on the button.
Precisely accurate.
There's the Warner Brat Slammachine to measure all kinds of
stuff about, um, uh, tenderness.
Um, ev almost every universitynow has a food science department.
Um, the food science and food technologyhas come many miles in the past decade,
(13:34):
and so a lot of what we thought tobe true we now learn is not true.
I mean, here's a very simple one.
Almost ev I, lemme see if I can show you.
Let's, uh, let's see here.
Uh, see those bookshelves,those I Ikea bookshelves, those
were all books about barbecue.
(13:57):
Every book ever beenpublished on barbecue.
I got it.
I, and I do my, and I'm going back years.
Um, they all say Soak your wood chips.
Some of 'em say soak'em for an hour or two.
Some of 'em say soak 'em overnight.
Well, you know, there's a reasonthey build boats out of wood
(14:17):
'cause it doesn't absorb water.
And we tested it.
I mean, it was reallysimple piece of research.
We took a bunch of wood chipsand wood chunks, both weighed
them, then soak them overnight.
Then padded the surface dry, 'cause therewas a lot of water hanging on the surface.
We wanted to see if it absorbedwater and then weighed them again.
(14:42):
And there was about a 2% weight gain.
And that was just on thesurface of the, the wood cut.
Open the wood chunks.
There's no water in there.
No, it doesn't penetrate wood.
I mean, if you want water to penetratewood, you gotta sink it for, uh, 50 years.
Like some of the old trees that fallinto the lakes and stuff, but Yep.
(15:03):
So what happens when you take wetwood and throw it on a charcoal
fire, knocks the temperature waydown, throw it on a gas fire.
Simon (15:12):
Only reason I'd want to use it.
Right?
Like, oh, we're a little too hot.
But that still really happens
Meathead (15:17):
Well, well you throw it on anti fire, gas, or charcoal.
Yeah.
And you're gonna see a lot ofwhite stuff coming up and everybody
says, look at all that great smoke.
It's not smoke.
Steam steam water converts to steamphase change at 212 degrees Fahrenheit.
Wood doesn't start to smoke till 500degrees, so what happens is, is the wood
(15:42):
goes up to two 12 and it can't go anyhigher until it gets rid of that water.
So it does, it happens pretty quick.
It burns off pretty quick, but allthat white stuff, if you hold a
mirror in it, you'll see it fog up.
It's steam.
And then it can go up to 500and you can get some smoke.
So don't soak your wood.
(16:04):
It's a waste of time.
In fact, it actually inhibits smokeformation 'cause it takes so long.
Right.
Classic myth.
And I guarantee 99% of these barbecuebooks tell you to soak your wood.
Simon (16:18):
Yep.
Yeah, I mean, it, it wasdefinitely taught to me.
I even had some chefs back in the day,um, where we were working over wood
fire and, and grilling, you know, nota whole lot of smoking, but a whole
lot of grilling in, in big steakhouses.
Um, and for us it was, I. The, thereason that we would soak the wood was
to, was to be able to have some woodthat was smoked to be able to bring
(16:42):
that, the temperature of the fire down.
'cause we would, man, we would kickup around 7 50, 800 degrees at times.
Meathead (16:49):
But what were you using for fuel?
Were you burning wood?
I mean, were you cooking with logsor were you cooking with charcoal?
We started
Simon (16:56):
with Mesquite charcoal, um, and then we would move on to
Hickory, well, it was a rotationof Hickory, sassafras Island.
This is, you're talking about Morton's?
No, sir. This is, uh, this is theRanchers Club of Albuquerque, New Mexico.
Okay.
And I'm talking a good long time ago.
Meathead (17:13):
All right.
Now let's talk about Morton's,Ruth, Chris, all the others,
what do they cook with?
Yes.
Of course, yes.
Alright, let's take on this gasversus charcoal bullshit argument.
I mean, you pay a lot of money for areally good tasting steak at Mortons,
Ruth's Chris, all these great steakhousesand they're all cooking with gas.
(17:37):
Yeah.
But you're sitting at home saying,no way I cook a steak with gas.
I'm a charcoal man.
Here's why you prefer charcoal,not because it has more flavor.
Charcoal is carbon, it's char.
Now some lump charcoal is not thoroughlycarbonized and so there may still be some
(18:02):
lignin and uh, other compounds in there.
And they'll smoke and they'll crackleand pop and you don't know what
kind of smoke that is 'cause youdon't know what kinda wood it is.
But briquettes.
Are almost pure char carbon.
Yep.
There's some, some, some bindersin there that are perfectly safe.
(18:24):
People seem to freak out about additivesto their charcoal, mostly corn starch.
Um, but um, think about this.
You light charcoal, especially briquettes,and it puts out a lot of smoke right away.
Yep.
That is combustion gases and thingsthat are created in the combustion
(18:46):
process, in the start of combustion.
But when they're covered with ash, whenthey're fully ignited, when they're
in the game, you don't see any smoke.
They don't make any smoke.
They don't make much flavor either.
If you want flavor, you get it for wood.
Charcoal is for heat, wood is for flavor.
Repeat after me.
(19:07):
Charcoal is for heat.
Charcoal is for what?
Is for flavor.
What is for
mix (19:09):
flavor?
Meathead (19:10):
Yeah, we, we got it.
Now everybody listening.
Charcoal is for heat, wood is for flavor.
You're not gonna get a lotof flavor from charcoal.
You might get some from lump.
You don't know what kind of woodyou're burning, what kind of smoke
you're getting, um, and you'vegot pieces the size of softball
and the size of your thumb.
(19:31):
It burns, erratically.
There's a ton of dust in the bag.
I'm absolutely, and I'm not paid byKingsford or anybody to say this.
I'm all about control.
I'm a control freak, and if I'm on acontrol temperature, I'm using briquettes
because a charcoal chimney, the onesmade by Weber, which is what I use,
(19:55):
hold exactly 80 briquettes, and soI can predict how hot it's gonna be.
Half a chimney is 40 briquettes.
Half speed.
'cause there's no thermostatson your grill or on your, uh,
you know, your charcoal grill.
Yeah.
There's a couple of gadgets thatyou can attach that will in,
that will restrict airflow andtherefore control the temperature.
(20:19):
But you don't wanna restrict airflowwhen you're burning charcoal.
And or would you want airflow?
Because here's another myth, youdon't want over his shoulder,
that lovely white smoke.
It is good.
It's not bad, but thebest smoke is What's over?
Oh, there it came back.
The best smoke is what we call blue smoke.
(20:41):
And it's almost invisible becausethe particles are so small.
White smoke particles are larger,they refract more light, right?
And you absolutely do not want, donot want yellow, brown, or black smoke
because those are large particles.
So white smoke, good blue smoke,best blue smoke is almost invisible.
And you get blue smoke when thewood burns, not smolders, you get
(21:07):
white smoke when it's smoldering.
It's smoldering becauseyou've restricted the airflow.
You wanna let as much air as youcan on it and let it burn With a
yellow flame, you'll go through morewood, but you'll get better flavor.
Yellow flame indicates impurities that arebeing burned off in the cooking process.
(21:28):
So all this business about, you know, Iwant lots of smoke, I want white smoke,
I want all and all part of the myth.
Simon (21:39):
I, I, you know, for me it's, it's, it's almost, it's
myth, but it's also lore, right?
It's like, it's, it'sthe things that we do.
I think there's some, uh,there's, what'd you say?
Knuckle draggers earlier.
It's, it's the chest pounding.
Like I'm the man, I'mthe, I'm the barbecue guy.
Um, I, I love that stuff.
But you picked on one of my favoritethings that, and I told, I read
(22:02):
through it and I was like, ah.
Beer can chicken, I knew you were
Meathead (22:05):
gonna go there.
I knew you were gonna.
I love it.
Alright.
I love it.
But you get it now, don't you?
Totally, totally.
Let me go.
Let me explain why beer cannedchicken doesn't work the way
you think it does out folks.
First of all, let's start here becauseeverybody who loves beer, canned
chicken is getting ready to churn offthe radio and they beer can chicken's.
Wonderful.
(22:26):
I love it.
Yeah, it tastes great.
And you know why?
It's bloody roast chickenfor Christ's sake.
And roast chicken is always wonderful,whether you do it in the grill,
in the smoker, in your kitchen,whatever, roast chicken's, wonderful.
It's a great miracle of culinaryart, but there are better ways to
cook it than sitting on a beer can.
(22:48):
Now what happens?
Okay, you take the chicken outof the fridge at 38 degrees.
That's hopefully what yourrefrigerated temperature is in the
beer can too, and you stick thebeer can up the but of the chicken.
You have now made a chicken cozy.
You have insulated that beercan with a cold chicken.
Yep, just like a beer can.
(23:09):
Cozy.
But you've also made one large thermalmass, like a bowling ball, and it takes
time for the energy in the form of heatto penetrate the outer layers of the
chicken, go all the way through thebreast to the center to make it safe.
(23:29):
And you need to cook itto a minimum of one 60.
What?
USDA says 1 65, 1 60 will work foryou and, and it'll be more juicy.
Cook it all the way through.
It takes time.
If you've stuck a beer can up there.
It takes longer 'cause it's now cold.
And while the outside is warming upthe inside, that beer can is staying
(23:54):
at the same temperature becauseit's wrapped by a cold chicken.
So it takes a while.
Now beer is what averageis around 90% water.
What temperature does water boil at?
212? Two 12.
So you got that beer can, it'sstuffed in there and it's all
the way up to the shoulders,but it's done at one 60 to 1 65.
(24:17):
It's not boiling.
It is never gonna boil.
It's happening around.
If you get it to two 12, you'regonna have one destroyed chicken.
Yes, sir.
Yeah.
Even if under some miraculous conditionsit boiled, it steamed, it would only
contact the area above the beer can.
(24:38):
That's the shoulders I. There's nosuper highway that runs from the
shoulder all the way down to thethigh and the leg or the breast.
There's no way for the beer toevaporate and then magically
move through the chicken.
It just can't do it.
And to make matters worse, chickenand most meat, chicken, beef,
(25:00):
pork, they run around 75% water.
Yeah, there's that much water.
75%. There's no room for moreliquid inside those muscles.
The beer can't get in.
And finally, who the hell wantsa chicken to taste like beer?
(25:21):
You know, depends onwhat beer we're talking
Simon (25:23):
about,
Meathead (25:23):
but, oh, I love beer, but I love chicken too.
And I don't think they are acombination I want mixed together.
I like 'em.
One side by side, let and final argument.
Can you name for me one MichelinStar restaurant serving beer?
Can chicken?
No.
The chefs no better than that.
(25:44):
So it is marvelously good becauseit's roast chicken, but it, there
are better ways to cook a chicken.
The best way, especially ifyou're on a grill, is to break
it down into eight parts.
Two breasts, two thighs.
Two legs, two wings.
Yeah, that's your eight parts.
Break 'em down.
Now the cavity, the inside ofthe chicken is exposed to air.
(26:10):
You can brown it on both sides.
Brown is beautiful.
Brown is the mayard reaction.
It's a chemical reaction thathappens to proteins and amino acids.
And the more brown you can getin anything you're cooking,
the better it's gonna taste.
So if you've got a beer can up,it's uh, but it's blocking the
interior from turning brown.
But if you cut it up, you can now,and the, you know, the, the, the, the
(26:33):
breast on the inside is the rib bones.
You cut it up and you lay thoserib bones down over the heat and it
browns and gets more flavor and ithas less evaporation, less water loss.
It cooks faster.
And if you got a good thermometer, youcan tempt your pieces each individually.
(26:53):
'cause those wings are gonna cooka lot faster than the breasts.
Yes, sir. So you cook the wingsand push 'em off to the side.
Now you got the thighs and the drum.
Now I said 160 as your go-to temp,but actually thighs and drums are
brown meat, dark meat, and theywere probably best at one 70.
But the breasts, yep, you, you,you, you don't wanna push past
(27:15):
one 60 if you can avoid it.
So you can now individually tempall the parts, get 'em off at
optimum tenderness and juiciness.
Absolutely.
So I love beer, canned chicken,but there are better ways.
For sure.
Simon (27:29):
Mm-hmm.
I think for me, uh, you, you mentionedbreaking it down into eight pieces.
I start to talk about surface area.
'cause I'm the crispy critter guy, right?
Mm-hmm.
Like, I, like, I likethe skin to be crispy.
I like the little, little cornersof, of the, of the flesh to be a
little crispy here and there, andthen have the juicy on the inside.
So I like surface area.
(27:51):
You know, I, I have so many friendswho are just like, oh, well it's,
you know, they talk about, and.
They talk about the, the wholebird and the beer, canned chicken.
And I'm like, nah, for me, break downthe chicken, throw it on the grill.
You're gonna, you'rereally gonna be happier.
Um, well
Meathead (28:05):
let me, let me share another concept from, actually, I introduced
it in my first book, meathead,the Science of Great Barbecue and
Grilling, um, which came out nineyears ago and sold 250,000 copies.
I think most cookbooks arereally happy if they get to 2200
50,000 is pretty impressive.
Um, pretty awesome.
And it's called Reverse Sear.
(28:27):
And reverse s Here is a conceptthat's starting to catch on.
It's been around for a long time.
I didn't invent it, but I popularized it.
Most people had never heardof it, and I've been preaching
it every chance I can get.
Like now, reverse s here,you're gonna start off with
your grill, charcoal, or gas.
In two zones.
I want a hot side and a not hot side.
(28:48):
I want the coals pushed allthe way over to one side.
I want one burner on highand the other side nothing.
And what you now have is twotemperature zones, temperature control.
It's all about temperature control.
If you start your chicken, how manytimes have you been to a 4th of July
Memorial Day party And you get achicken with a nice brown, crunchy
(29:10):
skin and it's raw in the center.
And we've all seen itand you don't want it.
You start your chicken in thenon hot zone, away from the the
charcoal away from the flame, andit will warm gently and slowly
because there's convection air flow.
If you've got the lid closed,warm air will come over from the
(29:31):
hot side and circulate around themeat, but it's not nearly as hot
as if you put it over the coals.
Because you've got three typesof energy under the hood.
You've got that convection airflow in thenon hot side, and you've got hot metal
underneath, which is conduction energy,and that's what causes grill marks.
(29:53):
And then under the, over the coals,over glowing coals or the flame of the
gas grill, you have infrared energy.
And infrared energy is reallypotent, really hot, and you use that
judiciously and you use it primarily.
On the outside of the food,on the skin of the chicken,
(30:15):
on the crust of the uh, steak.
But most of your cooking isgoing to be done on the indirect
convection airflow side.
Now, you can throw wood on top of theinfrared flames, and that smoke will
travel over to the infra, uh, indirectside, and it will flavor the meat nicely.
But what happens over there is themeat cooks slowly and gently, so it's
(30:37):
the same temperature, edge to edge.
If you put it, if you cook a, like a, askinny steak, right over a hot, hot coals,
you're gonna get a dark brown exterior.
You're gonna get a light brown layer justbelow it, you're gonna get a tan layer.
Below that, you're gonna get apink layer below that, and finally,
in the center, maybe half themeat is perfectly medium rare.
(31:02):
Right.
If you do the reverse sear on asteak, or I'm talking about chicken,
but it works on a steak too.
Works on a thick steak inch.
Inch and a inch and a half or so.
Doesn't work too good ona really skinny steak.
Little skinny steak.
Yeah, hot and fast right over the coals.
That that's okay.
Um, but for a thicker stake, you startedover to here on the indirect side,
(31:25):
and I like to call it in the shadebecause it's like when you go outside
on a hot day, there's a lot of infra.
We know about ultraviolet.
That's what changes your skin color,but there's a lot of infrared in the
air more than there is ultraviolet.
But if you step in the shade of atree, you're blocking the infrared.
So.
(31:45):
We wanna start on that indirect side.
Gently warm that chicken till it gets upto our, remember, our target in general
is one 60, take it up to about one 50,and then lift the lid and leave it up.
Move that chicken over tothe infrared side, skin down,
(32:06):
and in a very short order.
Okay.
That skin will crisp turn golden.
It'll be like potato chips.
Flip it over, get the other sidebrown it, and it'll buy now.
By now, that extra heat willwarm it up to 1 60, 1 65.
It's safe, it's cookedperfectly inside and out.
You got great crispy skin.
(32:28):
You got brown on the, um, on theinside, uh, the underside I should say.
And, uh, you, you've got reallygood, really good chicken.
And the same thing with a steak.
You're gonna take that steak,take it up to about one.
Well, we said 1 30, 1 35 is our target.
So take it up to 1 20, 1 25.
(32:51):
It'll be beautiful in even color.
Lift the lid.
You want the lift the lid.
Well, here's another treat.
You're gonna move that steakover the hot side, and it starts
to create that dark crust.
You are gonna flip it every minute.
All those books over here on my bookshelf,say, put it down and don't touch it.
(33:15):
It's wrong.
We look, this is simple physics,that heat, infrared energy is potent
and it's pounding the underside.
And if you leave it down for a longtime, it starts to work its way to the
center and you get that rainbow of color.
You don't want that, youwant it even color inside.
So pound the surface and then flip.
(33:38):
When you flip the side that was gettingpounded by infrared is now up and where's
all that infrared go into the atmosphere.
Instead of going down into the meat,it goes to the path of least resistant
through the air rather than the,the, the, the more difficult path of
through the water, through the meat.
So now you flip again.
(34:00):
And it keeps you becomelike the human rotisserie.
Every minute or two, you flip,flip, flip, flip, flip, flip.
And in three or four or fiveminutes at the most, you've got
yourself a beautiful dark crust.
And the interior is edge to edge, bumperto bumper be perfect, perfect medium room.
So reverse flip works for almost anything.
(34:21):
It's a concept you need toget your head wrapped around.
I know a lot of you guys, you startyour charcoal grill, you spread
the coals all over the bottom.
Don't do it.
Keep 'em off to one side.
Simon (34:31):
Yeah.
Yep.
I'm telling you two sips andflip is, is the way to go?
Two sips of a beer?
Flip it?
Uh, yeah, it's, I like that.
Two
Meathead (34:41):
sips and flip.
I love it.
Two sips and flip.
It works.
I love it.
Two sips and
Simon (34:45):
flip.
Um, I'm gonna use that.
You know, and Kent please,please, by all means.
Um, yeah, I. You can't do itin the restaurants that way.
But, uh, one thing I have learnedis just, you know, the, I remember
the old days when everythingwas all about the grill marks.
Right?
Um, and I feel like some, somewhere aroundthe turn, that turn of the century, I.
(35:08):
Early two thousands, people started toreally understand that you wanted crust.
And so it stopped being aboutlike leaving it for that perfect
grill mark and the diamond.
I mean, I remember the, back in theearly nineties, I worked, when I
worked, I, I worked in a steakhouseand they would even get fussy about
having diamonds on the back of thatNew York sirloins fat cap, right?
(35:31):
And I, well, if you turn on now,it's like you would never do it.
You would just never do it.
Meathead (35:35):
If you turn on the food network or go to YouTube and you look
up how to cook a steak, they're allgonna tell you, put the steak down
until it has a set of grill marks.
Then turn it 45 degreestill it has a cross section.
Uh, but in between thosegrill marks, the meat is gray.
Or tan, it's those grillmarks are the mayard reaction.
(35:58):
Those grill marks are caused by conveconduction energy from the grill
grates, and that's intense energy,but you want as much mayard reaction.
That's flavor as you can get, and soyou're getting only prison stripes.
On the cha on the meat and in betweenthose stripes and, and there's, there's
(36:21):
actually a steak cooking competitionout there, and they give you extra
points if you get beautiful grill marks.
I mean, it's crazy.
It's so funny.
Simon (36:32):
Uh, like I say, it's the lore, you know, like you talk
about the myths, but it's really,it's the grand lore of it all.
Um,
Meathead (36:39):
and the, and the way you get that.
Even color.
I, you know, I, could Ishow you some pictures?
The way you get, uh, we're,we're, we're just audio, we're
not video, is that correct?
Simon (36:50):
Um, I can do video.
Meathead (36:52):
Well, I mean, when you pass it out is, I mean, when you, when I push
Simon (36:55):
this out, I'll push it out on YouTube as well.
Yes.
Meathead (36:58):
Oh, really?
Yeah.
Well, I'll get some pictures up foryou, but I'll show you a perfect
steak and an, and an imperfect steak.
But that, that, now to get that all over.
My hard reaction, you'vegotta flip, flip, flip.
Because by leaving it all,all in one place, it's just
scoring ly that little surface.
(37:21):
Yeah.
But you can get it all over and it, it,
Simon (37:24):
it's the way to go.
I 100% agree.
Um, you know, we can't talk aboutbarbecue and, and not talk about brisket.
Um, so tell me your favorite way orthe, the way that's in that book, um,
that really kind of gets you going.
'cause I, I think,
mix (37:46):
I
Simon (37:46):
think, I think for me, the measure of somebody who really
understands barbecue is brisket.
Meathead (37:54):
Yeah.
You know, brisket is the Mount Everest.
Um, it's the getting there andgetting it right is really hard.
The, let's start with the factthat these are the pectoral
muscles, the chest muscles.
There's two muscles on a brisket.
The flatten the point, and they lay atslightly different angles, and there's
(38:17):
a thick layer of fat in between them.
And a, and a thick layer of faton top, but not on the bottom.
So you've got two muscles, andthey are very tough because the
steer does not have a collarbone.
All its weight.
The head, the neck, the shoulders, thefront legs, and half the midsection
(38:41):
are on top of those muscles.
So they're very hardworkingand they're very tough.
And they're also very flavorfuland there is an art to
getting them tender and juicy.
Now, we know an ideal steak isone 30 to 1 35, but if you cook a
brisket to that temperature, youwon't be able to chew through it.
(39:04):
Uh, we know that at 1 55 it turns grayand it's medium and, and it's well done.
You can at that point, most meats are dry.
Right, but a brisket needs to becooked to a minimum of one 90 and mu.
Many of the top comp com competitioncooks take it up to 2 0 3.
(39:28):
Now, what's smart is what's happeningnow with brisket in competition.
There's these two muscles they layon top of each other just like my
hands are here, and there's thiscross for the record of fat, right
in between separate the two muscles.
I. Yes, sir. Um, if you, if, if, ifyou leave them together, the, the
(39:50):
point muscle is on just about halfof the, uh, uh, of the flat muscle.
So you end up with somethingthat's almost teardrop shaped.
It's much thicker at one end than theother, but if you remove the point
muscle, the flat muscle is quite uniform.
And it's beautiful.
This is where you get your beautifulcorn beef slices, your beautiful
(40:13):
pastrami slices, and in competitionyou get your best brisket slices.
They're all perfect slices, but thepoint muscle, which is kind of floppy
and funny shape is where you get yourburnt ends or it, it, it, that the
point muscle has more marbling and sotherefore it's more tender and more juicy.
(40:37):
And a lot of the cooks willmake burnt ends out of it.
And I'll explain that in a minute, buta lot of the cooks now are taking that,
those two muscles and separating 'em.
And this is a really smart idea.
It goes back to what wewere talking about, chicken.
Break it down.
When you cook a whole animal,say a whole hog, well you're.
(41:01):
Tenderloin is gonna be badly overcooked,and that's the most tender and juicy
piece of the hog, the loin and the diff.
There's a difference betweentenderloin and loin on the hog.
The loin is gonna be badly overcooked, andthat's a pretty tender piece, but it needs
to be cooked to a higher temperature,uh, or a different temperature, I
should say, than the tenderloin.
(41:21):
And then you got your shoulders.
Now if you're gonna do the wholehog, usually you're gonna cook
until your shoulders and your hams.
Our I optimum temp, whichis way up in the 200.
So now you're basically struggling toget all of these different muscles,
which are optimum temperaturesdifferent done at the same time.
(41:43):
Same thing with a Turkey.
You do a Norman Rockwell Turkey.
I knew it was coming Thanksgiving.
You've got this big old Norman RockwellTurkey and God help you if you stuff it.
Do not stuff your Turkey, becausethat makes it a big thermal mass.
It takes much longer for the energy totravel from the outside to the center and
to make the center safe, get that birdemptied out and you know, if you want
(42:09):
to do it properly, you break it down.
Like I suggested, you break downa chicken into six or eight pieces
or you can do something that workspretty well called spatchcocking,
and that is you cut the backbone out.
And open the bird up, butterfly it,and now you can brown both sides.
You can brown the cavity,you can brown the skin.
(42:29):
It cooks faster.
It's more tender.
It's more juicy.
It's just not the traditionalNorman Rockwell bird.
But if you do it right, I'vebeen able to fake it and cook it.
Spatchcock or butterfly is, is morepolite word and kind of squish it around
and make it look like a whole bird.
But, uh, uh, it, it, it's tricky.
Simon (42:52):
Yeah, I, I mean, for, for years I, I was saying to people,
I'm like, break your bird apart.
Cook, cook your thigh,thighs, and legs separate.
I mean, I'm a fan of cooking.
The cooking, the dark meat is likecoco van kind of style, red wine
and vegetables and, and braise it.
Amen.
And then I like to.
And Right.
(43:13):
And then I like to roast the, Ilike to roast the, uh, the breasts.
And when I'm, when I'm happiestis when I'm throwing bacon
under the skin of those breasts.
Meathead (43:23):
Everybody out there who likes fried chicken.
Raise your hand.
Yeah, but you don't do it.
I You don't do it at home, do you?
Because it spatters all over the stovetop.
All over the, as he gets on thefloor, sets off the smoke alarm.
Um, and you end up sleeping on the couch.
Go out to your gas grill, turn oneburner on, on the far on, on, on
(43:45):
either the far left or far right.
Put a dutch oven on topabout two inches of oil.
Get it up to three 50 to 3 75.
That's your magic number for frying.
In goes the chicken bread, it howeveryou like, you know, you can just go
straight flour, that's all you need.
Or you can go flour into egg andthen back into the flour or flour
(44:05):
into egg, and then into a crowned upbreakfast cereal or Cheetos or whatever.
There's the bazillion ways to coat'em, but this is just straight flour.
Um, and, uh, out they come crispy, crunchythat you sit 'em over here on the side.
That's off.
We're, we're in two zones again.
Right.
They drip dry, you know, we don't care.
(44:29):
They stay warm.
Take 'em all out, put 'em over here.
Get the next batch going.
Fried chicken is now barbecue.
I love it.
Simon (44:40):
You just put on a masterclass on, on how to, how to be taking care
of your meat outdoors, how to grill.
Um, well, it's just
Meathead (44:48):
a sampling of what you'll find in, in either of my books.
I mean, I recommend you buy 'em both.
Um, uh, the first one has yourclassics, steaks and burgers and
ribs and brisket and how to do them.
In your backyard for optimumtenderness and flavor.
The second book I introduced, Asianflavors, Italian flavors, Spanish flavors.
(45:14):
And I'm trying to teach you to fish.
I'm trying to teach you how thingshappen and when things happen, how
to think your way through them,how to get yourself outta trouble.
Simon (45:24):
I love it.
I will make sure in the show notesthat we know how to find amazing
ribs.com, the meathead method, um,the first meathead book as well.
Mihi, I, I can't tell you how much Iappreciate you coming to play with me.
Um, I like to call this mylittle sandbox of the world.
I appreciate you, uh, all you outthere and you can find us on YouTube.
(45:46):
You can also find us whereveryou can consume your podcasts.
Till next time.
I'll catch you on the flip side.
You've been listeningto Culinary Mechanic.
This show exists to help you leadwith more clarity, build systems
that actually work and create akitchen culture worth showing up for.
If this episode helped you moveeven one step in that direction, do
(46:08):
me a favor, leave a quick review.
It helps more chefs and operators stop thechaos and start leading with intention.
You're listening toHeritage Radio Network.
I.
From kitchen chaos to well-oiled machines.
Get ready for newfangledtechnology and old school Know-how
(00:21):
stories and a good bit of fun.
I'm Simon, and this iscalled Area Mechanic.
Simon (00:31):
Joining me today is Meathead, author of the Meathead Method.
Meathead.
Welcome to Culinary Mechanic.
Well, thank you.
It's what?
Pleasure to be here.
All right.
Um, it's not every day I getsomebody who's been on the New
York Times bestseller list.
, You know, let's, let's press on thegas right away and just say how,
(00:54):
like, gimme the origin story, man.
How did meathead come about?
Meathead (00:59):
Oh, geez.
Um.
My dad came back from World WarII and opened a butcher shop.
Um, he, he, well actually firsthe went to NYU and he got a degree
in, um, uh, meat technology.
Then he opened a butcher shop.
So, you know, cooking's alwaysbeen in and around the family.
(01:21):
He was not a chef or a, a cook, althoughwe did actually, now that I think of
it, he did open a restaurant, one.
Once didn't last long.
Uh, neither did the butcher shop,but I loved hanging around the grill
with him, you know, uh, the smelland, you know, it might've let me
have a little beer along the way.
And, uh, his specialty was flank steak.
And, uh, he, he, oh, wow.
(01:42):
How got It was great.
And, uh, yeah, I got to college and,uh, because I could cook a little.
Um, my roommates, I had, youknow, three roommates in a
apartment just off of the campus.
I went to University of Florida, um,and, uh, you know, they asked me to do a
lot of the cooking and fortunately, ourapartment had a grill right out the back.
(02:05):
You know, one of thoselum cast aluminum things.
It was a, a u-shaped apartmentcomplex, and they had grills scattered
around on the, uh, grounds there.
And we were right in front of one.
So I grilled a lot and uh, I cookeda lot and I got a job at a BC Liquors
in Florida and got deep into wine.
(02:27):
I eventually, uh, moved to Chicago.
Where I was the wine buyer andconsultant for a chain of stores,
foremost liquors, 120 stores.
Um, the official wine buyer'sname was Madeline Sherry.
That was me.
I was Madeline.
And, uh, funny, uh, Iwas into it in a big way.
And when, um, Ruth Theon Church, thevery first wine critic in the country
(02:51):
who wrote a regular weekly wine columnfor the Chicago Tribune when she retired.
Um, they held a search and I got the job.
Um, and I, so I was the wine criticfor the Chicago Tribune for a while.
Then I launched a wine magazinecalled International Wine Review,
which I sold in the year 2000.
And that is the year Iswitched to solid food
(03:16):
and I got to cooking a lot.
And in 2005 I launched, uh, the website,amazing ribs.com and it was amazing ribs.
Because I didn't expectit to become a big deal.
Uh, my neighbor was a butcherand we were barking at each other
about who made the best ribs.
So we had a little cookoffwith our wives as judges, and
they wisely called it a draw.
(03:38):
But I beat him.
I know I did.
And, uh.
Cool.
And, and, and, and before that I startedlooking for ribs, recipes on the internet.
We're talking 2004, 2005.
There wasn't much of aninternet in those days.
And uh, no, it was not organizedthere, there was no Google,
um, uh, Yahoo's search enginewas the biggest and the best.
(04:03):
And you know, it was just likegoing to the library and all
the books were on the floor.
There was no real organization to it.
But somehow or other, when Googlelaunched, they took a shine to my
site and, uh, I started adding toit beyond ribs, uh, brisket and
steaks and burgers, and took off.
It's now.
By far the most popular barbecueand grilling website in the world
(04:24):
with over 2000 pages, free pagesthat are cooking and science and
myth busting and product reviews.
And uh, and then we have a. A paidportion of the website called the
Pitmaster Club, which is phenomenal.
We've got 120 broadcast qualityinstructional videos from Tuffy Stone
(04:49):
and all the top pit masters are in there.
And, um, it's, you know, it'sbeen a, it's been a ride.
Uh, I've got Clint Twell,uh, my right hand man.
He's very well known and respected.
Got a guy who does nothing but.
Review grills and smokers full-time.
We don't sell any, by the way.
I'm gonna put my
Simon (05:09):
application
Meathead (05:10):
in.
I do that.
Yeah, I hear that a lot.
I hear that.
And we got another guy,he is electrical engineer.
He is not full-time, but he doesall of our thermometer reviews.
We have a couple of hundredreviews of thermometers.
So if you're shopping to replacethat old rust bucket, come on down.
It's free.
Um, a database of severalhundred grills and smokers.
Uh.
(05:31):
And, uh, max, really,max Good is his name.
He does a great job.
I mean, really dives deep.
I mean, he tries to break thesethings and, uh, uh, it's not just,
and because we don't sell them,we don't pull punches, you know?
I mean, right.
He'll, he'll, he'll, he'll, he'll, he'll,he'll call something a clunker if it is.
And, uh.
(05:52):
I guess that's, that, that'sthe, that's the whole story.
Oh, I forgot something very important.
Just, uh, about three or fouryears ago, I was inducted into the
Barbecue Hall of Fame, somethingabout which I am very proud.
There are only 40 living membersof the Barbecue Hall of Fame.
And, uh, if you're into barbecue andgrilling, you probably know all of them.
(06:14):
And, uh, it's quite an honor.
Simon (06:17):
Right on, um.
I mean, I got a chance to, todig into this book and I mean,
I, I'm a chef with 30 plus yearsexperience and I, I loved it, man.
I, there was a couple momentshonestly, where I was like,
huh, I don't think I knew that.
You know, I mean, there's a, there'sa good, good bit of the science piece
that really got my juices going.
(06:40):
Um, you know, we, you mentioned the grillsand you mentioned the, the, the smokers.
Um.
You know, what, what are the, whatare a couple of the, let's get out,
let's start with the easy stuff, right?
What are a couple of those, a coupleof those essential tools for you,
um, that really sort of make it,make there's tools and skills.
Meathead (07:02):
Two, two, absolutely essential skills.
Number two is what most chefs will callnumber one, but I think it's number
two, and that is a great sharp knife.
Um, there's no substitute forhaving a great sharp knife.
Um, and if you can afford multiple,you know, have a pairing knife,
(07:22):
have a chef's knife, but a chef'sknife is the single most important.
You can do almost everything with it.
Um, I'm real fond of my, um,inexpensive Rapala Phil Egging knife
bought it Bass Pro for like 20 bucks.
But it's wicked sharp and it's reallyflexible, so I can work around bones.
(07:44):
Um, so I, you know, I, I thinkknives are really crucial.
My number one most important thing,thermometers cooking is all about heat.
Cooking is all about temperature.
A perfect steak we know is whata stake is most tender and most
juicy at one 30 to 1 35 Fahrenheit.
(08:07):
And we know that because there's gGizmo called the Warner Bratman machine,
which is like an artificial tooth,and it presses down on the meat and
measures how much resistance is there.
And there's other devicesthat measure the moisture.
So at around 1 30, 1 35, you'll getyour most tender and most juicy steak.
How do you know you're there?
(08:27):
You don't have to cut into itbecause you really can't tell
by cutting into it the light.
Affects it.
I mean, incandescent light'sdifferent than fluorescent light,
different than LEDs, um, uh, sunlight.
Uh, and, and the meat changescolor with exposure to oxygen.
So cutting into it is highly deceptive.
(08:51):
Um, what you need is a goodinstant read thermometer.
Here I got, I happen to have here.
My favorite.
This is the fireboard.
Nice.
And you can see it's got a probe.
Yep.
And that probe goes into the centerof the meat and tells you, and
(09:12):
excuse me, it's highly accurate.
Um, it's accurate within adegree or two at the most.
And one second.
Reading two seconds atthe most really fast.
That one's 150 bucks.
Right.
But, um, I don't have w with me,but I, I, there is, there is one
that's really good that takes fiveseconds and is accurate with one or
(09:36):
two, um, degrees and costs 15 bucks.
Right?
It's by Thermo Pro.
They're both available on Amazon.
They're really, so you need an instantread thermometer, not just to get optimum
doneness on a steak, and God knows howmany times you, you know, in the old
days, you'd cook a steak and serve itto the table and your boss is over for
(09:59):
dinner and the steak is overcooked.
That's really embarrassing, but muchmore important is poultry chicken,
which is, yeah, I mean, a couple ofyears ago, consumer reports did a test.
They bought 300 chicken breasts and90% of them had pathogenic bacteria.
(10:19):
Now pathogenic bacteria are allkilled at a hundred sixty, a
hundred sixty five degrees, right?
So you gotta cook chicken to a hundredsixty, a hundred sixty five degrees.
How do you know digital therm thermometer?
Um, so it is the single most importanttool, and I know listening out there.
(10:40):
There's a bo bunch of oldknuckle dragers thermometer.
Um, you do.
Um, and, uh, you need itfor safety and for quality.
And if you're not usingone, you're not cooking.
Wow.
Simon (10:54):
I tell you, I think I, it, it is one of those things.
It's like, oh, I can do it without it.
Sure, but why bother?
That's the way I've alwayslooked at it, you know?
Now, um, if
Meathead (11:05):
you're the chef at Morton Steakhouse.
And you're cooking the same steak, samethickness from the same herd every night.
Then you can possibly tell by poking it.
But I gotta tell you all thecookbooks that say, poke your hand.
My hand is a lot different thansomebody who exercises regularly.
(11:30):
And file mignon is a lotdifferent than sirloin.
You cannot tell by poking it.
You can't tell by cutting into it.
You need a thermometer.
Get over it.
If you're not, if, if you areone of those knuckle dragers.
Simon (11:47):
I love that term.
Well, I'll tell you theone thing I can tell you.
Having worked in some corporate, I workedfor Morton's for a very short time.
I worked for a number of other,uh, corporate restaurants and
they're using thermometers.
So you're, you're on the right track.
I'm good.
Good.
I can tell you, um.
You know, one of the thing that is,that is really fun about your book is
(12:10):
that you are throwing out some, you'rethrowing pages that are like, debunking
a myth here and debunking a myth there.
Uh, you know, let's, let's getdown to what do you think are
some of the big ones that people,
Meathead (12:25):
well, you know,
Simon (12:26):
espouse and then all of a sudden let's, let's bust them.
Let's pause for a second.
If you're serious about building a kitchenthat leads from the top runs on systems
and actually feels good to work in, makesure you're following culinary mechanic.
This show is all about helping youlead better, scale smarter, and
stop white knuckling your business.
(12:47):
And if you're ready to dig in deeper,you'll find a link in the show
notes to connect with me directly.
Meathead (12:52):
First of all, there are a lot of myths out there.
And that's because I learned frommy dad and he learned from his dad.
And you learned from your dadand he learned from his dad.
And so what we thought weknew about cooking in 1900
keeps getting passed on down.
But this is 2025.
Mm-hmm.
And we have a.
Instant read thermometers.
(13:13):
Two seconds on the button.
Precisely accurate.
There's the Warner Brat Slammachine to measure all kinds of
stuff about, um, uh, tenderness.
Um, ev almost every universitynow has a food science department.
Um, the food science and food technologyhas come many miles in the past decade,
(13:34):
and so a lot of what we thought tobe true we now learn is not true.
I mean, here's a very simple one.
Almost ev I, lemme see if I can show you.
Let's, uh, let's see here.
Uh, see those bookshelves,those I Ikea bookshelves, those
were all books about barbecue.
(13:57):
Every book ever beenpublished on barbecue.
I got it.
I, and I do my, and I'm going back years.
Um, they all say Soak your wood chips.
Some of 'em say soak'em for an hour or two.
Some of 'em say soak 'em overnight.
Well, you know, there's a reasonthey build boats out of wood
(14:17):
'cause it doesn't absorb water.
And we tested it.
I mean, it was reallysimple piece of research.
We took a bunch of wood chipsand wood chunks, both weighed
them, then soak them overnight.
Then padded the surface dry, 'cause therewas a lot of water hanging on the surface.
We wanted to see if it absorbedwater and then weighed them again.
(14:42):
And there was about a 2% weight gain.
And that was just on thesurface of the, the wood cut.
Open the wood chunks.
There's no water in there.
No, it doesn't penetrate wood.
I mean, if you want water to penetratewood, you gotta sink it for, uh, 50 years.
Like some of the old trees that fallinto the lakes and stuff, but Yep.
(15:03):
So what happens when you take wetwood and throw it on a charcoal
fire, knocks the temperature waydown, throw it on a gas fire.
Simon (15:12):
Only reason I'd want to use it.
Right?
Like, oh, we're a little too hot.
But that still really happens
Meathead (15:17):
Well, well you throw it on anti fire, gas, or charcoal.
Yeah.
And you're gonna see a lot ofwhite stuff coming up and everybody
says, look at all that great smoke.
It's not smoke.
Steam steam water converts to steamphase change at 212 degrees Fahrenheit.
Wood doesn't start to smoke till 500degrees, so what happens is, is the wood
(15:42):
goes up to two 12 and it can't go anyhigher until it gets rid of that water.
So it does, it happens pretty quick.
It burns off pretty quick, but allthat white stuff, if you hold a
mirror in it, you'll see it fog up.
It's steam.
And then it can go up to 500and you can get some smoke.
So don't soak your wood.
(16:04):
It's a waste of time.
In fact, it actually inhibits smokeformation 'cause it takes so long.
Right.
Classic myth.
And I guarantee 99% of these barbecuebooks tell you to soak your wood.
Simon (16:18):
Yep.
Yeah, I mean, it, it wasdefinitely taught to me.
I even had some chefs back in the day,um, where we were working over wood
fire and, and grilling, you know, nota whole lot of smoking, but a whole
lot of grilling in, in big steakhouses.
Um, and for us it was, I. The, thereason that we would soak the wood was
to, was to be able to have some woodthat was smoked to be able to bring
(16:42):
that, the temperature of the fire down.
'cause we would, man, we would kickup around 7 50, 800 degrees at times.
Meathead (16:49):
But what were you using for fuel?
Were you burning wood?
I mean, were you cooking with logsor were you cooking with charcoal?
We started
Simon (16:56):
with Mesquite charcoal, um, and then we would move on to
Hickory, well, it was a rotationof Hickory, sassafras Island.
This is, you're talking about Morton's?
No, sir. This is, uh, this is theRanchers Club of Albuquerque, New Mexico.
Okay.
And I'm talking a good long time ago.
Meathead (17:13):
All right.
Now let's talk about Morton's,Ruth, Chris, all the others,
what do they cook with?
Yes.
Of course, yes.
Alright, let's take on this gasversus charcoal bullshit argument.
I mean, you pay a lot of money for areally good tasting steak at Mortons,
Ruth's Chris, all these great steakhousesand they're all cooking with gas.
(17:37):
Yeah.
But you're sitting at home saying,no way I cook a steak with gas.
I'm a charcoal man.
Here's why you prefer charcoal,not because it has more flavor.
Charcoal is carbon, it's char.
Now some lump charcoal is not thoroughlycarbonized and so there may still be some
(18:02):
lignin and uh, other compounds in there.
And they'll smoke and they'll crackleand pop and you don't know what
kind of smoke that is 'cause youdon't know what kinda wood it is.
But briquettes.
Are almost pure char carbon.
Yep.
There's some, some, some bindersin there that are perfectly safe.
(18:24):
People seem to freak out about additivesto their charcoal, mostly corn starch.
Um, but um, think about this.
You light charcoal, especially briquettes,and it puts out a lot of smoke right away.
Yep.
That is combustion gases and thingsthat are created in the combustion
(18:46):
process, in the start of combustion.
But when they're covered with ash, whenthey're fully ignited, when they're
in the game, you don't see any smoke.
They don't make any smoke.
They don't make much flavor either.
If you want flavor, you get it for wood.
Charcoal is for heat, wood is for flavor.
Repeat after me.
(19:07):
Charcoal is for heat.
Charcoal is for what?
Is for flavor.
What is for
mix (19:09):
flavor?
Meathead (19:10):
Yeah, we, we got it.
Now everybody listening.
Charcoal is for heat, wood is for flavor.
You're not gonna get a lotof flavor from charcoal.
You might get some from lump.
You don't know what kind of woodyou're burning, what kind of smoke
you're getting, um, and you'vegot pieces the size of softball
and the size of your thumb.
(19:31):
It burns, erratically.
There's a ton of dust in the bag.
I'm absolutely, and I'm not paid byKingsford or anybody to say this.
I'm all about control.
I'm a control freak, and if I'm on acontrol temperature, I'm using briquettes
because a charcoal chimney, the onesmade by Weber, which is what I use,
(19:55):
hold exactly 80 briquettes, and soI can predict how hot it's gonna be.
Half a chimney is 40 briquettes.
Half speed.
'cause there's no thermostatson your grill or on your, uh,
you know, your charcoal grill.
Yeah.
There's a couple of gadgets thatyou can attach that will in,
that will restrict airflow andtherefore control the temperature.
(20:19):
But you don't wanna restrict airflowwhen you're burning charcoal.
And or would you want airflow?
Because here's another myth, youdon't want over his shoulder,
that lovely white smoke.
It is good.
It's not bad, but thebest smoke is What's over?
Oh, there it came back.
The best smoke is what we call blue smoke.
(20:41):
And it's almost invisible becausethe particles are so small.
White smoke particles are larger,they refract more light, right?
And you absolutely do not want, donot want yellow, brown, or black smoke
because those are large particles.
So white smoke, good blue smoke,best blue smoke is almost invisible.
And you get blue smoke when thewood burns, not smolders, you get
(21:07):
white smoke when it's smoldering.
It's smoldering becauseyou've restricted the airflow.
You wanna let as much air as youcan on it and let it burn With a
yellow flame, you'll go through morewood, but you'll get better flavor.
Yellow flame indicates impurities that arebeing burned off in the cooking process.
(21:28):
So all this business about, you know, Iwant lots of smoke, I want white smoke,
I want all and all part of the myth.
Simon (21:39):
I, I, you know, for me it's, it's, it's almost, it's
myth, but it's also lore, right?
It's like, it's, it'sthe things that we do.
I think there's some, uh,there's, what'd you say?
Knuckle draggers earlier.
It's, it's the chest pounding.
Like I'm the man, I'mthe, I'm the barbecue guy.
Um, I, I love that stuff.
But you picked on one of my favoritethings that, and I told, I read
(22:02):
through it and I was like, ah.
Beer can chicken, I knew you were
Meathead (22:05):
gonna go there.
I knew you were gonna.
I love it.
Alright.
I love it.
But you get it now, don't you?
Totally, totally.
Let me go.
Let me explain why beer cannedchicken doesn't work the way
you think it does out folks.
First of all, let's start here becauseeverybody who loves beer, canned
chicken is getting ready to churn offthe radio and they beer can chicken's.
Wonderful.
(22:26):
I love it.
Yeah, it tastes great.
And you know why?
It's bloody roast chickenfor Christ's sake.
And roast chicken is always wonderful,whether you do it in the grill,
in the smoker, in your kitchen,whatever, roast chicken's, wonderful.
It's a great miracle of culinaryart, but there are better ways to
cook it than sitting on a beer can.
(22:48):
Now what happens?
Okay, you take the chicken outof the fridge at 38 degrees.
That's hopefully what yourrefrigerated temperature is in the
beer can too, and you stick thebeer can up the but of the chicken.
You have now made a chicken cozy.
You have insulated that beercan with a cold chicken.
Yep, just like a beer can.
(23:09):
Cozy.
But you've also made one large thermalmass, like a bowling ball, and it takes
time for the energy in the form of heatto penetrate the outer layers of the
chicken, go all the way through thebreast to the center to make it safe.
(23:29):
And you need to cook itto a minimum of one 60.
What?
USDA says 1 65, 1 60 will work foryou and, and it'll be more juicy.
Cook it all the way through.
It takes time.
If you've stuck a beer can up there.
It takes longer 'cause it's now cold.
And while the outside is warming upthe inside, that beer can is staying
(23:54):
at the same temperature becauseit's wrapped by a cold chicken.
So it takes a while.
Now beer is what averageis around 90% water.
What temperature does water boil at?
212? Two 12.
So you got that beer can, it'sstuffed in there and it's all
the way up to the shoulders,but it's done at one 60 to 1 65.
(24:17):
It's not boiling.
It is never gonna boil.
It's happening around.
If you get it to two 12, you'regonna have one destroyed chicken.
Yes, sir.
Yeah.
Even if under some miraculous conditionsit boiled, it steamed, it would only
contact the area above the beer can.
(24:38):
That's the shoulders I. There's nosuper highway that runs from the
shoulder all the way down to thethigh and the leg or the breast.
There's no way for the beer toevaporate and then magically
move through the chicken.
It just can't do it.
And to make matters worse, chickenand most meat, chicken, beef,
(25:00):
pork, they run around 75% water.
Yeah, there's that much water.
75%. There's no room for moreliquid inside those muscles.
The beer can't get in.
And finally, who the hell wantsa chicken to taste like beer?
(25:21):
You know, depends onwhat beer we're talking
Simon (25:23):
about,
Meathead (25:23):
but, oh, I love beer, but I love chicken too.
And I don't think they are acombination I want mixed together.
I like 'em.
One side by side, let and final argument.
Can you name for me one MichelinStar restaurant serving beer?
Can chicken?
No.
The chefs no better than that.
(25:44):
So it is marvelously good becauseit's roast chicken, but it, there
are better ways to cook a chicken.
The best way, especially ifyou're on a grill, is to break
it down into eight parts.
Two breasts, two thighs.
Two legs, two wings.
Yeah, that's your eight parts.
Break 'em down.
Now the cavity, the inside ofthe chicken is exposed to air.
(26:10):
You can brown it on both sides.
Brown is beautiful.
Brown is the mayard reaction.
It's a chemical reaction thathappens to proteins and amino acids.
And the more brown you can getin anything you're cooking,
the better it's gonna taste.
So if you've got a beer can up,it's uh, but it's blocking the
interior from turning brown.
But if you cut it up, you can now,and the, you know, the, the, the, the
(26:33):
breast on the inside is the rib bones.
You cut it up and you lay thoserib bones down over the heat and it
browns and gets more flavor and ithas less evaporation, less water loss.
It cooks faster.
And if you got a good thermometer, youcan tempt your pieces each individually.
(26:53):
'cause those wings are gonna cooka lot faster than the breasts.
Yes, sir. So you cook the wingsand push 'em off to the side.
Now you got the thighs and the drum.
Now I said 160 as your go-to temp,but actually thighs and drums are
brown meat, dark meat, and theywere probably best at one 70.
But the breasts, yep, you, you,you, you don't wanna push past
(27:15):
one 60 if you can avoid it.
So you can now individually tempall the parts, get 'em off at
optimum tenderness and juiciness.
Absolutely.
So I love beer, canned chicken,but there are better ways.
For sure.
Simon (27:29):
Mm-hmm.
I think for me, uh, you, you mentionedbreaking it down into eight pieces.
I start to talk about surface area.
'cause I'm the crispy critter guy, right?
Mm-hmm.
Like, I, like, I likethe skin to be crispy.
I like the little, little cornersof, of the, of the flesh to be a
little crispy here and there, andthen have the juicy on the inside.
So I like surface area.
(27:51):
You know, I, I have so many friendswho are just like, oh, well it's,
you know, they talk about, and.
They talk about the, the wholebird and the beer, canned chicken.
And I'm like, nah, for me, break downthe chicken, throw it on the grill.
You're gonna, you'rereally gonna be happier.
Um, well
Meathead (28:05):
let me, let me share another concept from, actually, I introduced
it in my first book, meathead,the Science of Great Barbecue and
Grilling, um, which came out nineyears ago and sold 250,000 copies.
I think most cookbooks arereally happy if they get to 2200
50,000 is pretty impressive.
Um, pretty awesome.
And it's called Reverse Sear.
(28:27):
And reverse s Here is a conceptthat's starting to catch on.
It's been around for a long time.
I didn't invent it, but I popularized it.
Most people had never heardof it, and I've been preaching
it every chance I can get.
Like now, reverse s here,you're gonna start off with
your grill, charcoal, or gas.
In two zones.
I want a hot side and a not hot side.
(28:48):
I want the coals pushed allthe way over to one side.
I want one burner on highand the other side nothing.
And what you now have is twotemperature zones, temperature control.
It's all about temperature control.
If you start your chicken, how manytimes have you been to a 4th of July
Memorial Day party And you get achicken with a nice brown, crunchy
(29:10):
skin and it's raw in the center.
And we've all seen itand you don't want it.
You start your chicken in thenon hot zone, away from the the
charcoal away from the flame, andit will warm gently and slowly
because there's convection air flow.
If you've got the lid closed,warm air will come over from the
(29:31):
hot side and circulate around themeat, but it's not nearly as hot
as if you put it over the coals.
Because you've got three typesof energy under the hood.
You've got that convection airflow in thenon hot side, and you've got hot metal
underneath, which is conduction energy,and that's what causes grill marks.
(29:53):
And then under the, over the coals,over glowing coals or the flame of the
gas grill, you have infrared energy.
And infrared energy is reallypotent, really hot, and you use that
judiciously and you use it primarily.
On the outside of the food,on the skin of the chicken,
(30:15):
on the crust of the uh, steak.
But most of your cooking isgoing to be done on the indirect
convection airflow side.
Now, you can throw wood on top of theinfrared flames, and that smoke will
travel over to the infra, uh, indirectside, and it will flavor the meat nicely.
But what happens over there is themeat cooks slowly and gently, so it's
(30:37):
the same temperature, edge to edge.
If you put it, if you cook a, like a, askinny steak, right over a hot, hot coals,
you're gonna get a dark brown exterior.
You're gonna get a light brown layer justbelow it, you're gonna get a tan layer.
Below that, you're gonna get apink layer below that, and finally,
in the center, maybe half themeat is perfectly medium rare.
(31:02):
Right.
If you do the reverse sear on asteak, or I'm talking about chicken,
but it works on a steak too.
Works on a thick steak inch.
Inch and a inch and a half or so.
Doesn't work too good ona really skinny steak.
Little skinny steak.
Yeah, hot and fast right over the coals.
That that's okay.
Um, but for a thicker stake, you startedover to here on the indirect side,
(31:25):
and I like to call it in the shadebecause it's like when you go outside
on a hot day, there's a lot of infra.
We know about ultraviolet.
That's what changes your skin color,but there's a lot of infrared in the
air more than there is ultraviolet.
But if you step in the shade of atree, you're blocking the infrared.
So.
(31:45):
We wanna start on that indirect side.
Gently warm that chicken till it gets upto our, remember, our target in general
is one 60, take it up to about one 50,and then lift the lid and leave it up.
Move that chicken over tothe infrared side, skin down,
(32:06):
and in a very short order.
Okay.
That skin will crisp turn golden.
It'll be like potato chips.
Flip it over, get the other sidebrown it, and it'll buy now.
By now, that extra heat willwarm it up to 1 60, 1 65.
It's safe, it's cookedperfectly inside and out.
You got great crispy skin.
(32:28):
You got brown on the, um, on theinside, uh, the underside I should say.
And, uh, you, you've got reallygood, really good chicken.
And the same thing with a steak.
You're gonna take that steak,take it up to about one.
Well, we said 1 30, 1 35 is our target.
So take it up to 1 20, 1 25.
(32:51):
It'll be beautiful in even color.
Lift the lid.
You want the lift the lid.
Well, here's another treat.
You're gonna move that steakover the hot side, and it starts
to create that dark crust.
You are gonna flip it every minute.
All those books over here on my bookshelf,say, put it down and don't touch it.
(33:15):
It's wrong.
We look, this is simple physics,that heat, infrared energy is potent
and it's pounding the underside.
And if you leave it down for a longtime, it starts to work its way to the
center and you get that rainbow of color.
You don't want that, youwant it even color inside.
So pound the surface and then flip.
(33:38):
When you flip the side that was gettingpounded by infrared is now up and where's
all that infrared go into the atmosphere.
Instead of going down into the meat,it goes to the path of least resistant
through the air rather than the,the, the, the more difficult path of
through the water, through the meat.
So now you flip again.
(34:00):
And it keeps you becomelike the human rotisserie.
Every minute or two, you flip,flip, flip, flip, flip, flip.
And in three or four or fiveminutes at the most, you've got
yourself a beautiful dark crust.
And the interior is edge to edge, bumperto bumper be perfect, perfect medium room.
So reverse flip works for almost anything.
(34:21):
It's a concept you need toget your head wrapped around.
I know a lot of you guys, you startyour charcoal grill, you spread
the coals all over the bottom.
Don't do it.
Keep 'em off to one side.
Simon (34:31):
Yeah.
Yep.
I'm telling you two sips andflip is, is the way to go?
Two sips of a beer?
Flip it?
Uh, yeah, it's, I like that.
Two
Meathead (34:41):
sips and flip.
I love it.
Two sips and flip.
It works.
I love it.
Two sips and
Simon (34:45):
flip.
Um, I'm gonna use that.
You know, and Kent please,please, by all means.
Um, yeah, I. You can't do itin the restaurants that way.
But, uh, one thing I have learnedis just, you know, the, I remember
the old days when everythingwas all about the grill marks.
Right?
Um, and I feel like some, somewhere aroundthe turn, that turn of the century, I.
(35:08):
Early two thousands, people started toreally understand that you wanted crust.
And so it stopped being aboutlike leaving it for that perfect
grill mark and the diamond.
I mean, I remember the, back in theearly nineties, I worked, when I
worked, I, I worked in a steakhouseand they would even get fussy about
having diamonds on the back of thatNew York sirloins fat cap, right?
(35:31):
And I, well, if you turn on now,it's like you would never do it.
You would just never do it.
Meathead (35:35):
If you turn on the food network or go to YouTube and you look
up how to cook a steak, they're allgonna tell you, put the steak down
until it has a set of grill marks.
Then turn it 45 degreestill it has a cross section.
Uh, but in between thosegrill marks, the meat is gray.
Or tan, it's those grillmarks are the mayard reaction.
(35:58):
Those grill marks are caused by conveconduction energy from the grill
grates, and that's intense energy,but you want as much mayard reaction.
That's flavor as you can get, and soyou're getting only prison stripes.
On the cha on the meat and in betweenthose stripes and, and there's, there's
(36:21):
actually a steak cooking competitionout there, and they give you extra
points if you get beautiful grill marks.
I mean, it's crazy.
It's so funny.
Simon (36:32):
Uh, like I say, it's the lore, you know, like you talk
about the myths, but it's really,it's the grand lore of it all.
Um,
Meathead (36:39):
and the, and the way you get that.
Even color.
I, you know, I, could Ishow you some pictures?
The way you get, uh, we're,we're, we're just audio, we're
not video, is that correct?
Simon (36:50):
Um, I can do video.
Meathead (36:52):
Well, I mean, when you pass it out is, I mean, when you, when I push
Simon (36:55):
this out, I'll push it out on YouTube as well.
Yes.
Meathead (36:58):
Oh, really?
Yeah.
Well, I'll get some pictures up foryou, but I'll show you a perfect
steak and an, and an imperfect steak.
But that, that, now to get that all over.
My hard reaction, you'vegotta flip, flip, flip.
Because by leaving it all,all in one place, it's just
scoring ly that little surface.
(37:21):
Yeah.
But you can get it all over and it, it,
Simon (37:24):
it's the way to go.
I 100% agree.
Um, you know, we can't talk aboutbarbecue and, and not talk about brisket.
Um, so tell me your favorite way orthe, the way that's in that book, um,
that really kind of gets you going.
'cause I, I think,
mix (37:46):
I
Simon (37:46):
think, I think for me, the measure of somebody who really
understands barbecue is brisket.
Meathead (37:54):
Yeah.
You know, brisket is the Mount Everest.
Um, it's the getting there andgetting it right is really hard.
The, let's start with the factthat these are the pectoral
muscles, the chest muscles.
There's two muscles on a brisket.
The flatten the point, and they lay atslightly different angles, and there's
(38:17):
a thick layer of fat in between them.
And a, and a thick layer of faton top, but not on the bottom.
So you've got two muscles, andthey are very tough because the
steer does not have a collarbone.
All its weight.
The head, the neck, the shoulders, thefront legs, and half the midsection
(38:41):
are on top of those muscles.
So they're very hardworkingand they're very tough.
And they're also very flavorfuland there is an art to
getting them tender and juicy.
Now, we know an ideal steak isone 30 to 1 35, but if you cook a
brisket to that temperature, youwon't be able to chew through it.
(39:04):
Uh, we know that at 1 55 it turns grayand it's medium and, and it's well done.
You can at that point, most meats are dry.
Right, but a brisket needs to becooked to a minimum of one 90 and mu.
Many of the top comp com competitioncooks take it up to 2 0 3.
(39:28):
Now, what's smart is what's happeningnow with brisket in competition.
There's these two muscles they layon top of each other just like my
hands are here, and there's thiscross for the record of fat, right
in between separate the two muscles.
I. Yes, sir. Um, if you, if, if, ifyou leave them together, the, the
(39:50):
point muscle is on just about halfof the, uh, uh, of the flat muscle.
So you end up with somethingthat's almost teardrop shaped.
It's much thicker at one end than theother, but if you remove the point
muscle, the flat muscle is quite uniform.
And it's beautiful.
This is where you get your beautifulcorn beef slices, your beautiful
(40:13):
pastrami slices, and in competitionyou get your best brisket slices.
They're all perfect slices, but thepoint muscle, which is kind of floppy
and funny shape is where you get yourburnt ends or it, it, it, that the
point muscle has more marbling and sotherefore it's more tender and more juicy.
(40:37):
And a lot of the cooks willmake burnt ends out of it.
And I'll explain that in a minute, buta lot of the cooks now are taking that,
those two muscles and separating 'em.
And this is a really smart idea.
It goes back to what wewere talking about, chicken.
Break it down.
When you cook a whole animal,say a whole hog, well you're.
(41:01):
Tenderloin is gonna be badly overcooked,and that's the most tender and juicy
piece of the hog, the loin and the diff.
There's a difference betweentenderloin and loin on the hog.
The loin is gonna be badly overcooked, andthat's a pretty tender piece, but it needs
to be cooked to a higher temperature,uh, or a different temperature, I
should say, than the tenderloin.
(41:21):
And then you got your shoulders.
Now if you're gonna do the wholehog, usually you're gonna cook
until your shoulders and your hams.
Our I optimum temp, whichis way up in the 200.
So now you're basically struggling toget all of these different muscles,
which are optimum temperaturesdifferent done at the same time.
(41:43):
Same thing with a Turkey.
You do a Norman Rockwell Turkey.
I knew it was coming Thanksgiving.
You've got this big old Norman RockwellTurkey and God help you if you stuff it.
Do not stuff your Turkey, becausethat makes it a big thermal mass.
It takes much longer for the energy totravel from the outside to the center and
to make the center safe, get that birdemptied out and you know, if you want
(42:09):
to do it properly, you break it down.
Like I suggested, you break downa chicken into six or eight pieces
or you can do something that workspretty well called spatchcocking,
and that is you cut the backbone out.
And open the bird up, butterfly it,and now you can brown both sides.
You can brown the cavity,you can brown the skin.
(42:29):
It cooks faster.
It's more tender.
It's more juicy.
It's just not the traditionalNorman Rockwell bird.
But if you do it right, I'vebeen able to fake it and cook it.
Spatchcock or butterfly is, is morepolite word and kind of squish it around
and make it look like a whole bird.
But, uh, uh, it, it, it's tricky.
Simon (42:52):
Yeah, I, I mean, for, for years I, I was saying to people,
I'm like, break your bird apart.
Cook, cook your thigh,thighs, and legs separate.
I mean, I'm a fan of cooking.
The cooking, the dark meat is likecoco van kind of style, red wine
and vegetables and, and braise it.
Amen.
And then I like to.
And Right.
(43:13):
And then I like to roast the, Ilike to roast the, uh, the breasts.
And when I'm, when I'm happiestis when I'm throwing bacon
under the skin of those breasts.
Meathead (43:23):
Everybody out there who likes fried chicken.
Raise your hand.
Yeah, but you don't do it.
I You don't do it at home, do you?
Because it spatters all over the stovetop.
All over the, as he gets on thefloor, sets off the smoke alarm.
Um, and you end up sleeping on the couch.
Go out to your gas grill, turn oneburner on, on the far on, on, on
(43:45):
either the far left or far right.
Put a dutch oven on topabout two inches of oil.
Get it up to three 50 to 3 75.
That's your magic number for frying.
In goes the chicken bread, it howeveryou like, you know, you can just go
straight flour, that's all you need.
Or you can go flour into egg andthen back into the flour or flour
(44:05):
into egg, and then into a crowned upbreakfast cereal or Cheetos or whatever.
There's the bazillion ways to coat'em, but this is just straight flour.
Um, and, uh, out they come crispy, crunchythat you sit 'em over here on the side.
That's off.
We're, we're in two zones again.
Right.
They drip dry, you know, we don't care.
(44:29):
They stay warm.
Take 'em all out, put 'em over here.
Get the next batch going.
Fried chicken is now barbecue.
I love it.
Simon (44:40):
You just put on a masterclass on, on how to, how to be taking care
of your meat outdoors, how to grill.
Um, well, it's just
Meathead (44:48):
a sampling of what you'll find in, in either of my books.
I mean, I recommend you buy 'em both.
Um, uh, the first one has yourclassics, steaks and burgers and
ribs and brisket and how to do them.
In your backyard for optimumtenderness and flavor.
The second book I introduced, Asianflavors, Italian flavors, Spanish flavors.
(45:14):
And I'm trying to teach you to fish.
I'm trying to teach you how thingshappen and when things happen, how
to think your way through them,how to get yourself outta trouble.
Simon (45:24):
I love it.
I will make sure in the show notesthat we know how to find amazing
ribs.com, the meathead method, um,the first meathead book as well.
Mihi, I, I can't tell you how much Iappreciate you coming to play with me.
Um, I like to call this mylittle sandbox of the world.
I appreciate you, uh, all you outthere and you can find us on YouTube.
(45:46):
You can also find us whereveryou can consume your podcasts.
Till next time.
I'll catch you on the flip side.
You've been listeningto Culinary Mechanic.
This show exists to help you leadwith more clarity, build systems
that actually work and create akitchen culture worth showing up for.
If this episode helped you moveeven one step in that direction, do
(46:08):
me a favor, leave a quick review.
It helps more chefs and operators stop thechaos and start leading with intention.
Popular Podcasts
Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com