July 29, 2025 • 46 mins
Burnout Isn’t a Badge—It’s a Warning Light
Nio DiPietrantonio stepped into the kitchen at 16 because someone didn’t show up—and she’s been showing up ever since. In this episode, Nio and Simon get real about burnout, kitchen trauma, and how to build operations that don’t rely on heroics.
They talk systems that protect your people, leadership that doesn’t need to shout, and why restaurants must stop normalizing chaos. From senior living to drive-throughs, this one’s packed with hard-won truth and usable insight.
Topics include:
restaurant systems, kitchen leadership, chef culture, operational clarity, independent restaurant
Nio DiPietrantonio is the Founder and President of Serving Up Support: Maine, a nonprofit dedicated to championing mental health and well-being for hospitality workers across New England. She is an Ambassador for The Burnt Chef Project, CHOW, and CORE Gives, several organizations dedicated to helping hospitality folks when things get tough. With a passion for empathy, inclusivity, and authentic leadership, Nio brings years of hands-on experience from the culinary world, senior living, and nonprofit sectors. She’s an advocate for challenging stigma, building supportive communities, and empowering industry professionals to thrive.
Connect with Nio DiPietrantonio
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nio-dipietrantonio/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/undeadweddedbliss/
https://www.instagram.com/theburntchefproject/
https://www.instagram.com/servingupsupportmaine/
https://www.instagram.com/chow_org/
https://www.instagram.com/coregives/
Connect with Simon
Email: simon@culinarymechanic.com
Book a Call: https://calendly.com/culinarymechanic/discovery
Website: https://www.culinarymechanic.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You're listening toHeritage Radio Network.
I.
From kitchen chaos to well-oiled machines.
Get ready for newfangledtechnology and old school Know-how
(00:21):
stories and a good bit of fun.
I'm Simon, and this iscalled Area Mechanic.
. Simon (00:31):
Joining me today is Neo depe, Antonio, I got it right on the first try.
Welcome, Neo.
How are you?
Nio (00:40):
I am persisting.
How are you?
Chef Simon.
Simon (00:44):
Uh, I'm, I would say I'm probably sliding along the slip and slide.
How's that?
Nio (00:51):
You know what's funny is actually at our, our community today, they
did a slip and slide for the seniors.
Simon (00:58):
Hell yeah, they did.
Nio (01:00):
It was really interesting what they did.
So they laid out this huge, uh,plastic sheet and they got these
little, like life rafts so that theseniors could sit in it, and then they
pulled them on the, the, the wet tarp.
The life rafts and they hada grand old time doing it.
Simon (01:17):
No, no.
Like running and diving,sliding into home plate.
Nio (01:20):
I feel like that would be a little much for seniors, but I mean,
it would still would've been hilarious.
That's what we did with ourgeneration, but they had fun with it.
I was
Simon (01:28):
gonna say, that's what I would do.
Like, ah, you know,
Nio (01:31):
I'm sure there would've been some lawsuits involved otherwise.
Simon (01:35):
I think so.
I think so.
Uh, just a visual on thatis killing me right here.
Um.
All right.
Let's press on the gas.
It's culinary mechanic.
Tell me about how you came tothe restaurant or the kitchen or
the, the food service industry.
Nio (01:51):
Oh God.
So I started when I was 16 years old.
I had just graduated high school andum, I got a job at kind of like a
local restaurant, ice cream shop, oneof those kind of like burger joints.
And I was there for a long time.
Um, but I started as a hostess.
And one day one of our, uh, cooksnever showed up for their shift.
So my manager said, Hey,can you go work the fryer?
(02:12):
'cause we don't haveenough people back there.
So that's kind of howI got started cooking.
Um, somebody didn't show up and I didand I was willing to give it a try.
So that's what I started there.
From there, I spent some time kind ofjust learning the ropes, learning how to
make a decent burger, learning about friedfood, learning how to work the grills
and clean a fryer, and I did pick upsome like part-time jobs at other places
(02:34):
to kind of learn more about cooking.
I started doing somelike culinary classes.
To get a feel for things.
Um, I was very fortunate that I hada mentor who was willing to, to spend
some time with me and take the timeto teach me, um, which was fantastic.
I loved him so much.
Um, but unfortunately he passedaway from a drug overdose, so
that was very sad about that.
Yeah, yeah.
(02:55):
It claims a lot of lives inour industry, unfortunately.
But from there, I've, uh, I've beencooking for at least 18 years now.
I love it very much.
From transitioning from restaurants intothe senior living space is where I am now.
I like to cook for the seniors.
It's very, somethingvery passionate about.
Simon (03:12):
That's awesome.
I You love it.
Saw something on, I feellike it was probably LinkedIn
Nio (03:18):
probably.
Simon (03:20):
Where you're talking about like the immediate feedback, and I
can just imagine, you know, somebody'sgrandma coming, coming down into
the kitchen, giving, like, givingyou the business about something.
Nio (03:32):
Oh, it's, it's intense.
Like you have to have some thick skin tocook for the senior community for sure.
Really?
Yeah.
So I don't know if you'veever had the pleasure.
Um, it, it is a lot of fun, but you dohave to be very open to criticism because
we do have to meet with a culinarycommittee meeting every two weeks, and
it's made up of residents who wanna sitdown with us and tell us what they like
(03:55):
about the menu, what they don't like aboutthe menu, what they wanna see on the menu,
um, what, what things they wish they hadthat we don't have, that kind of thing.
And, um, they can be very honest.
They're a little spicysometimes, but it's, you just,
you can't take it personally.
You have to be willing to listen towhat they want, because ultimately
that's who you're cooking for.
You need to make sure they'rehappy with what they get.
(04:17):
But sometimes, you know, it'sthe greatest thing they've ever
had, and other days they're like,I wouldn't give that to my dog.
And I'm like, damn.
Simon (04:27):
I mean, I think back, I, I spent a couple years, um, living
with my grandparents and theywere 89 and 90 in those years.
mix (04:38):
Mm-hmm.
Simon (04:38):
And, you know, my, my grandmother was still cooking for her husband and.
And the, you know, when the kidswould show up, we were, we're
all in their fifties and sixties.
Um, I think I was in my twenties atthat point, but, you know, she was still
cooking and every once in a while I, Iwas, I was staying there and it turned
out that on my nights off I would, Iwould get to cook and, and I, it's,
(05:04):
at first my, my grandmother was like.
I don't know.
And I was like, grandma, I cookfor hundreds of people a day.
Nio (05:12):
She wasn't willing to surrender her kitchen to you.
Simon (05:14):
Yeah.
I think that was part of it, right.
You know, but I think pork chops was the,was the, like the real deal, like game
changer on that one because I, I madepork chops and she went, oh, I didn't
think she, she says mine usually go aboutsix minutes on each side and I thought.
(05:34):
They're not even a half an inch thick.
Okay.
And so when I did them, I sateverybody at the table and then I
threw 'em in the pan and like let'em sit for a minute, put 'em out.
And she's like, this is the best thing.
You're the only person in thishouse allowed to cook pork chops.
So, you know, but the king of
Nio (05:52):
pork chops undisputed,
Simon (05:54):
I'm telling you.
Um, that's why I put apig on my arm, you know?
Uh, 'cause I love that.
Yeah.
It says, what would you do for bacon?
Nio (06:05):
It's a good saying.
Um,
Simon (06:07):
all right, so let's, let's kind of slide on the, on the, the
history scale here a little bit,like in between the beginning, right?
You get in and, and, uh.
The transition to, I do wanna goback to the, the senior living, but
like, of course in between that,like what are the things that like
(06:28):
kept you like rolling with food?
Because for me there's always thoselike, like barbed hooks that keep
you in the industry and you'relike, I can't live without this.
Oh, absolutely.
Nio (06:39):
Absolutely.
So, I mean, it definitelystarted when I was young.
I mean, I started cookingwhen I was three years old.
My grandmother and my Nonawere both, were both chefs.
I mean, in, in a traditional sense.
Like my and my Nona did cook back home.
But my grandmother was justalways the one who cooked.
I mean, she taught me how to doa lot of different things too.
And my Nona said, if you're old enough towalk, you're old enough to hold a knife.
So that's when I started learninghow to chop vegetables and prepare
(07:01):
meats and, and carve chickens andcut roasts and stuff like that.
I mean, that was just.
An essential part of the culture.
That's what we learned as a family.
And I kind of carried that withme when I went into the restaurant
industry and definitely the senseof the people I loved being around,
kind of that, that camaraderie.
I would say for sure.
(07:22):
There are people who, um, whoare definitely more back of
house than front of house.
Yeah.
Who have that personality.
Um, I think that I kind offall in between, like I, I
can do front of house stuff.
I'm, I'm comfortable withit, but I definitely prefer.
Getting my hands dirty and,and just getting in and doing
things and making things.
And it just, it, it's a sense of passion.
(07:43):
It's getting to create something fromlittle things and doing it as part of
a team and it, it can get very chaotic.
I mean, I was, at one point I wasworking in a restaurant that was
doing like 70, $80,000 a week.
And that's, I mean, that's a lot forsome people and not so much for others.
But that's busy.
That's a busy restaurant.
Yeah.
And you have to be ableto keep up with that.
And that's not easy.
(08:03):
Some people can get veryburnt out with that.
Having a good team behind youthat that can communicate and is
willing to kind of help you pickup the slap when you fall down.
Having that sense of true teamwork isthere, I mean, there's nothing like it.
There's nothing like thatanywhere in the world
Simon (08:18):
for sure.
I feel like the I, I feel like I. I'mstaring at my wall going, I remember
the days when like you could justwatch seven or eight guys and gals
and everybody's just flowing fromleft to right and back and forth.
Yep.
And, and people are going down andup and, you know, and, and just the
(08:38):
food's just flying into the window.
Um,
Nio (08:41):
and there's a rhythm to it for sure.
Its like its own little dance thatyou don't even realize you're doing
until you're in the middle of it.
Simon (08:48):
Yeah, I read something two, three days ago and it was this guy
talking about his, his definition ofleadership, and I thought, I'm not sure
if I'm gonna continue to read this.
And then he got to the bottomand it was three words.
It was ritual, repetition,rhythm, and I went.
(09:10):
I don't know if that's leadership,but I love those three words together.
You know, I, I think that finding a,finding a team that starts to hum.
Right?
Like, I, uh, for me, culinary mechanic,I talk about restaurants and kitchens
that, that work like a well-oiled machine.
mix (09:29):
Mm-hmm.
Like when
Simon (09:30):
you feel that and everybody knows what's expected and everybody knows
the, the goods and the bads together.
Um.
Man, there's justnothing better, you know,
Nio (09:39):
there.
It's true.
I mean, you do have to be a littlecrazy to keep going back to that.
I, I admit that, but it's, it's thatsense of just knowing that, one, you
can do it and two, that you want to.
I mean, when, when you have a really goodsupport and a good background and you
know that you can handle it, it's, youfeel like you just wanna keep doing it.
Simon (09:59):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think for me it was always there,there was a point, not always, but
there was a point where I. Like, howmany big events can we take on too?
Nio (10:10):
Exactly, yes.
It's almost like a little challenge.
It's like, alright, how, howquickly can we get this order
out or this catering order out?
Simon (10:16):
Right.
Um, I worked for a place justsouth of San Francisco for a little
while and the general managerwas like, our sales are light.
I'm like, well, what do youwant me to, like, how, how would
you like me to like, you have a
Nio (10:31):
magic wand.
Yeah.
Simon (10:34):
Um.
More stakes?
No.
She, she said, well, I, I wanna, Iwanna, the airport is two miles away.
How do we get?
And I was like, I don't know.
And so we talked to our, likethe company marketing person.
Next thing I know, like by the.
Grace of the universe.
(10:55):
We have a a, a table like in theevening of six chefs and they all worked
for something called Gate Gourmet.
And the the, the chef is looking,you know, one of the guys, he is
like, can I talk to the chef and.
Sends me out which one I waslike, and I was like, okay,
(11:16):
what, what, what's going on?
How, how can I help you?
He goes, would you be willing to dosome catering for, for some NBA teams?
And I was like, what?
And it turned out that like they, theypartnered with local restaurants to.
Do food, and it was the first timeI'd ever done something like that.
(11:37):
They sent me cases of this veryspecific aluminum container.
I'd never seen, like they werelike seven by nine inches, like
nothing I'd ever seen in any store.
Like it was very specific and theysent me all the lids and everything
and like it can only be packed in this.
And you can only set this many likeof these things to a bo, to a a
(12:01):
box, and it was very, very specific.
But we used to blast that stuffout before we opened at 1115.
Nice.
And we sometimes do asmany as 60 meals, right?
So I always think about like, yeah,the challenges that you can put upon
yourself just to do a little bitmore money or to do the next thing.
(12:21):
It was, it was, it was pretty cool.
After a while, although Isaid, no, no more, thank you.
Bye.
Because it wasn't, it wasn't,well, we were heading into summer
and business was there, right?
It was like, eh.
So, uh, I, I, I decided to, to go thefour, four wall marketing route anyway.
(12:42):
Like, let's make our food better,let's make sure that everything
we put out is awesome and theguests guest counts will go up.
And knock on wood, it actually worked.
Um, so I don't know, like.
I think about kitchens and latelyI've been talking about thinking about
leadership and systems and as youand I were warming up for this, we
(13:02):
were starting to talk about systems.
So I don't know, I'm gonna likeopen it up and say, tell me what you
love about like systems in kitchens.
Let's pause for a second.
If you're serious about building a kitchenthat leads from the top runs on systems
and actually feels good to work in, makesure you're following culinary mechanic.
(13:24):
This show is all about helping youlead better, scale smarter, and
stop white knuckling your business.
And if you're ready to dig in deeper,you'll find a link in the show
notes to connect with me directly.
Tell me what you love about like systems in kitchens.
Nio (13:39):
I love a well maintained system that makes sense.
So it has to make senseand it has to flow.
You have to be able to stepinto it at any point and still
be able to get things done.
So when you have a really clear SOP ora way to get things done, or just even
having like your strategies in place,or your cleaning schedules in place, and
(14:01):
then it's actually followed, everythingelse falls into place and you need to
be able to, it does have to be a littleadaptable, so you do need to be able
to shift things around, but Right.
No matter what happens,it should still be like.
An instruction guide forwhat needs to be done.
So anybody should be able to step inand do what needs to be done regardless
of who it is without question.
(14:22):
And then you should just know that andtrust your team that it's gonna get done.
It shouldn't be like a,well, who's gonna do this?
And who's gonna do that?
Well, who's in charge of this?
And, oh, this didn't get done because noone checked this box and no one looked at
this item, or no one checked this prep.
Like if you have the right systemsin place, everything gets done.
You don't have to question it.
You don't have to wonder.
Simon (14:43):
Yeah, I, I always love when, when I go into a, uh, a new kitchen or a new
client and I started asking questions, andeverybody starts pointing to one person.
Do you love that?
Like when everythingcentralized drives a ball?
mix (14:57):
Hate that
Simon (14:59):
I was, I was costing a menu for a, for a quick serve company.
They had four restaurantsand a commissary.
And I was like, so how do you, like,I see all these different buckets and
some of the buckets have red writing andsome of 'em have green writing on 'em.
How do I know which one?
And they said, oh.
So-and-so gives us the bucketsfor, for each project as
(15:21):
we're, as we start the day.
So basically he writes the preplist and then he goes and get, I'm
like, what if he gets hit by a car?
Yeah, exactly.
Like what?
What if he's sick and they're like, oh,the, we have an assistant manager and.
And I was like, okay.
And they pointed him out.
I'm like, that son of a bitch rode inthe same car with that dude this morning.
Nio (15:44):
What happens if they get into a car
Simon (15:45):
accident?
Then nobody knows what to do.
I'm like, I'm like, I'm notsure that I said, so like.
How, like, tell me like,how, well, I don't know.
The owner looks at me and he goes, Idon't know, he just figures it all out.
I was like, no.
So let's document a couple things.
Mm-hmm.
Just document the processes, you know?
Um, yeah, I, I, I, Iget a kick out of that.
(16:05):
I, I, I love how sometimes everythingfunnels through one person.
It's like, man, do youunderstand what you're, you know.
Like that person's nowstrapped to that table.
Like they might as well have a, a balland a shackle and the whole thing.
Nio (16:22):
Well, when I was, when I was a general manager, I was that
person, but that's also the waythat our structure was set up.
And it was, it was unsustainable.
I mean, there was times where I, I had to.
Either be the manager on duty, alsotry to run a drive-through window.
Try to do inventory at thesame time while we're open.
Um, make sure the truckorder is coming in.
(16:43):
Make sure our beverages are coming inthat wasn't on the same truck order.
This was an independent company.
Also make sure the shift is running okay.
'cause we have a full dining room.
Uh, make sure the hostess isokay 'cause she's trying to deal
with all these parties tryingto come in at the same time.
Make sure the grill's going okay.
That's a lot for one person to handle,and it's, it's really not sustainable.
That's the first way that you'regonna burn out your managers.
Simon (17:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Uh, talk about burnout managers.
I, I think, I think about like greatemployees and as I call 'em the
great doers of the world, right?
These are the people that get promotedand we, we promote them because they.
(17:26):
Can do stuff.
Amazing.
Whether they're cooks or whetherthey're like, they're great servers,
does not mean they're gonna bea great manager, by the way.
Nio (17:33):
Absolutely.
Simon (17:34):
Um, or if they are, it's because they just go into
what I call like super mode.
Right?
Like they, they, they go from beingthe best cook to the best cook plus,
plus the manager rather than leader.
And I, I tell people, I'm like,so you gotta teach them how to.
(17:55):
Teach.
Nio (17:58):
It's not intrinsic.
It's not something that just fallsin your lap and you know how to do.
And one of the problems is a lot ofpeople, especially, I was 18 years
old when I was promoted to a manager,I was 18, and it was for the same
reason that I was promoted to a cookbecause someone didn't show up and
they needed someone to fill in a slot.
I was 18.
And you were willing to
Simon (18:17):
do the work?
Nio (18:18):
Absolutely.
But I was an 18-year-old kidand I was still a teenager.
I mean, I was a legal, almosta legal adult now, but I was an
18-year-old kid in charge of like30, 40, and 50-year-old people.
Like they're not automatically gonnalisten to me just because you slapped
a set of keys in my hands and youstuck a manager batch to my chest.
I had no business being a managerat 18, but I tried my damnedest
Simon (18:40):
right.
I, I was a little older than that.
I think I was probably 23, 24.
I was the chef to cuisine andno, that that was garbage.
Um, but I, it.
Was enough of a traumatic experiencethat I was like, no, I think I'll, uh,
I think I'll close my toolbox and goback into the kitchen and stay there.
mix (19:02):
I get it.
And,
Simon (19:02):
and cook for a few more years until I'm really ready because that was bad.
Right?
It, it's, I, I, I remember makingdecisions and understanding as
the day would go on going, I'mmaking poor decisions 'cause I have
no fucking clue what I'm doing.
I agree.
Yeah, I, so now I, now I try tofind ways to help people understand,
(19:27):
teach as much as you learn andteach others how you teach.
Because if you're leading, hopefullyyou're, you're on, you've already
gotten some of that, and you can likekeep, you can start to get culture
moving, move the culture flywheel byteaching how you wanna be taught, right.
Nio (19:49):
And when I was that young, I mean a lot of my education came from
how I didn't want to be a leader.
And I think that's kind of the way,especially for a lot of young, young
people in the industry, is we learnthrough watching and we learn through
seeing how we don't wanna be treated orhow we don't want others to be treated.
I remember I was 17.
The first time I met one of our, like our,our big, our big wigs, I'll call them.
(20:12):
One of the, the head honchos that wasour regional director of the restaurant
that I was working at at the time.
And this person came in and they were,they were helping out on the floor.
They were trying to get things moving'cause it was a busy lunch period.
And, um, they had brought out a bowlof chowder to a guest and he brought
it back and there was a server standingnext to him and he dipped his fingers in
(20:34):
the chowder and wiped it on the server'sarm and goes, does this feel hot to you?
The server looks over at himlike confused, like, what?
Why did you just wipe that on me?
And he shoves it back at the,across the, the counter at us
and goes, this is lukewarm.
I expect better of you guys.
This needs to be hot.
I need a fresh bowl of chowder, please.
And we're like, okay, sorry.
You know, we apologized and we put outa hot bowl of chowder, but this, this
(20:55):
little like teenage server went outback and started crying because this
guy just talked down to her like shewas dirt and wiped chowder on her arm.
I'm like, how childish is that?
First of all, and I was livid.
I was pissed.
I was ready to throw hands with thisguy, even though I knew who he was.
I'm like, why do you think that?
That's okay.
I was a wicked hotheadwhen I was that age.
I mean, I still kind of am, but I've tonedit down a little bit in my adulthood.
(21:18):
But I just, I see things like that and I'mlike, why do we think that this is okay?
Why do we as leaders look atpeople like this and think it's
okay to treat them like that?
How would you respond to that ifsomeone wiped chowder on you and
said, do you think this is acceptable?
I'd knock him
Simon (21:31):
out.
Nio (21:32):
Yeah, absolutely.
Simon (21:34):
You know what's funny is I, I worked for a, a a, a kind of a big
company in LA and we, I was talkingwith the corporate catering chef,
and he had been around a while.
He had been like, the original, he'dbeen around since the company had
was one restaurant and at that pointthere, I think there were 25, 26
restaurants and we were talking about.
(21:57):
That behavior, right?
Like that chef behavior that we, weall have seen and we've all heard
Nio (22:03):
Oh yeah.
Simon (22:03):
I've heard stories about, and you know, Gordon Ramsey has given us
cartoonish, um, uh, caricatures of, um,he's not like that every day, by the way.
I got to Oh no, I
Nio (22:13):
know, I know.
He hams it up for the cameras.
Simon (22:15):
Yeah, he's definitely a showman.
Um, and this guy said something thathas stuck with me for 20 plus years now.
He said, in this company.
Genius accompanied if, if you are genius.
If you are amazing.
Like the food you're putting out isstunning, asshole is accommodated,
Nio (22:38):
ugh.
Simon (22:40):
Was like, its allowed,
Nio (22:41):
it's acceptable.
Uh,
Simon (22:42):
yeah.
And not just tolerated, accommodated.
And I thought to myself, thisis not just this company.
Right?
And so it's that whole thing oflike, if you're amazing, we're
gonna tolerate it because you'regonna bring something to us.
And that's that always like when I'mdealing with employees that are just.
(23:05):
Like, they're just, they're,they've, they've got nails coming
down the chalkboard, right?
Like that's what their behavior is doing.
For me, I ask myself, am I, amI accommodating this person?
Because they're amazing at what they do.
It's like, it's like that assholegrill cook that gets away with
everything because the guy or gal or,I mean, I've seen gals who do it too.
Nio (23:27):
Oh, absolutely.
It's not gender specific.
They are, they
Simon (23:29):
treat everybody like shit because they are the moneymaker.
Nio (23:32):
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Simon (23:34):
Um, worked in enough steakhouses where that was reality and no thank you.
Um, oh
Nio (23:39):
yeah, I've done a, I did a part-time gig when I was, you know, I was trying to
save up money for my wedding, and I workedwith a head chef who, who was brilliant.
Like you said.
He was amazing, but the turnaroundin that kitchen was ridiculous.
At one point.
It was literally just me and himleft, and every time he got angry
he would throw something and it, atthis one point, it was a potholder.
Just hit me in the side of the head,but that was my breaking point.
(24:00):
I'm like, next time it could be aknife or a pot or something else.
I'm like, I'm done with this nonsense.
I don't deserve that shit.
Simon (24:07):
Nope.
No, it's, it's, it's fascinating.
Um, and.
I feel like a lot of that has gone away.
I'm sure there's some of it.
I'm sure there's still folksthrowing temper tantrums,
like they're three years old.
Um, and for me personally, I wishthat their parents had just used
the word no a couple more times andthen, then life would be better.
(24:27):
But, um, uh, you know, even beyondthat, I look at some of the things
that have been normal, right?
Like I remember.
The first time that I couldn't getoutta bed because I was so sick and
I yielded and I, my wife and I hadbeen married probably 15 years at
(24:52):
that point, and she said, you know,I think you've proven you're metal.
Enough times.
And I said, what do you mean?
She goes, we've been married 15 yearsand you've never called out sick.
Once she goes, zero in 15 years, howabout if you just started a new tally?
And I was like, okay.
(25:12):
Because I, why?
One, I just remember, I, Icouldn't, I remember sitting on,
sitting on the chair that I usedto like get dressed in the morning.
You know, and I'm, I remember leadingover to put up, put my socks on,
and I fell off the chair off theside and I just, I was like, well,
Nio (25:29):
I'm so sorry.
Yeah.
Simon (25:29):
I think I have to yield.
Nio (25:32):
Yeah, we all reached that point.
I mean, unfortunately I did too.
I was 27 and uh, I unfortunatelysuffered a, it was small, but it was
a minor stroke, and that happenedbecause I was pushing myself.
I was working 18 hour days.
I was working seven days a week becauseit was, um, it was, it was just madness.
We were short staffed.
We were busy all the time.
I didn't have enough staff and Iwasn't trusting them enough to take
(25:53):
on some of the responsibilitiesthat I should have let them do.
And it was, it was a recipefor disaster and unfortunately
it led to a minor stroke.
Simon (26:02):
27.
Nio (26:03):
27.
Simon (26:06):
Wow.
You're a statistic somewhere.
Nio (26:09):
I'm sure that's.
Simon (26:12):
Either that or a case study
Nio (26:14):
one of the two.
Yeah.
I mean, mm-hmm.
Some of it was due to, I wasabusing caffeine at the time.
I was taking caffeine pills and drinkingenergy drinks just to get through the
day, just to get through the shift and getup for the next day, and it was just it.
It spiraled outta control,
Simon (26:27):
huh?
Yeah, that makes me think about like.
Now I'm in my fifties.
Right.
And I've, I've had some time to thinkabout my thirties, twenties, and
thirties and forties and done been inthe last three years I've done a lot
of reading and some of the readingI've done is around some of the
stuff from Harvard Business Review.
(26:49):
Mm. And I don't know if you're awareof this, but like one of their studies
found that like we as human beings.
After about seven hours ofintense work, our decision making
capacity like starts to go down.
I'm like, seven hours.
Whatcha talking about, I used to work 14as a regular thing and it's like, huh?
(27:12):
How do we, like, can Ihave a megaphone please?
Like, can we say this stuff louder?
Right, right in the backfor the people in the back.
You don't make better decisionswhen you're fucking tired.
Yeah.
Facts, right?
And so like teach, like when I startto talk to chefs and owners about
(27:34):
this kind of stuff, and they're like,oh, well it's just too expensive.
I'm like, expensive.
I bet you I can save you money byhiring, getting you to hire a couple
more people and getting everybodyto operate at an optimal level
rather than the traditional level.
And sometimes people buy itand sometimes they don't.
And usually the people that don't.
(27:57):
A, I don't get my contact,my contract renewed with them
because, and BI usually fire them.
I'm like, if we're not gonnamake progress, like then you
don't need to gimme the money.
I'll go find it somewhere else.
Well,
Nio (28:12):
yeah, I mean, I, I can just imagine it's like beating
your head against a rock.
I mean, at, at what point do you feel likeyour words are just falling on deaf ears?
Simon (28:20):
Yeah.
And, and I think I, I've been luckyenough now recently to find some people
who, like, I've got some differentideas about things in the world.
You know, like I, I talk with people allthe time about, let's work on managing
people into the huddle, not pushingthem with a stiff arm out, right?
Like.
(28:40):
Get buy-in, get consensus, getpeople to work with you, not against
you, like stop treating everythingas an adversarial sort of thing.
And it's phenomenal and passion,
Nio (28:50):
not apathy.
Simon (28:52):
Right?
But, but passion is, isis like the, is like the.
What is it?
It's the tachometer on in your car, right?
It's got a little red line for me.
The line, there's a really thinline between passion and an asshole.
Right?
And so like that red line myhusband agree with is asshole.
It's, what's that?
Nio (29:11):
I think my husband would agree with you.
Simon (29:14):
Totally.
It's like, like how many times haveyou heard, oh, they're just passionate.
I'm sorry.
Fuck off.
Right.
You're lying to yourself.
They're not just passionate.
They're being allowed to be anasshole because they're brilliant
or because they get the job doneor because they're passionate.
Nio (29:34):
I'm
Simon (29:34):
sorry.
No man.
Nio (29:35):
Or because people are afraid to stand up to them.
Simon (29:38):
Right.
And it's, and when you realize that.
Every time that happens, there's some,there's an employee standing somewhere
in that space that has just clickedthe switch in their brain that says
there's an expiration on how long Iwill tolerate this every single time.
Nio (29:58):
Absolutely.
You know,
Simon (29:59):
but yeah, it's a red line like passion.
Amazing.
Awesome.
But at some point it burns too hot.
Right?
And if you let it burn toohot, we get that other thing.
Okay.
We've talked about some fun stuff.
I guess we gotta be seriousfor half a second here.
(30:19):
You've done, like, you gota, you got a nonprofit?
I do.
Uh, you work with the Burt Shef project.
You work with chow.
Tell me about some of the, tellme, tell me some fun stories about
getting to work with those folks.
'cause I think that it's somethingthat needs to be elevated
(30:42):
into people's consciousness.
Nio (30:43):
Absolutely.
So the Burnt Chef really kindof stalked me from leaving the
industry first and foremost.
I was, it was during COVIDwhen I actually started paying
attention to the Burnt Chef.
And that was, I mean, COVIDwas no good for anybody.
Um, but especially therestaurant industry.
I, that was, I was still doing thegeneral manager thing at that time,
recovering from my stroke and stillworking and trying to have a work life
(31:04):
balance now on top of a global pandemic.
And that was at that time thatI found the BET Chef Project.
And I was listening to a podcastthat Chris Hall had been on.
Where he was talking abouthow we shouldn't have to
sacrifice our health and.
What we love about the industryjust to keep being in it.
We shouldn't let that burn ourselves out.
Like we have to take better careof ourselves if we wanna do what
(31:27):
we do and keep doing it right.
And that's really kind of like whatlit a switch in my brain is like,
this is the first time I've everheard somebody say that and mean it.
You know what I mean?
Someone who's been in the industryand then I'm like, okay, maybe
you know this is, this is real.
This is something that is sustainable.
Like I don't have to leave the industryto keep cooking 'cause I really
didn't want to, but I had to makesome healthy life choices to do that.
(31:48):
So I started getting involvedwith the Burnt Chef project
and I became an ambassador.
And part of that is reaching out to otherchefs and trying to, if, if they need
help, helping them get the resourcesthey need, whether they're dealing with
like anxiety, depression, um, if they'redealing, uh, dealing with like a substance
use disorder or just connecting with otherpeople who are feeling stressed out and
having that really tough conversationof, well, why do we let ourselves kind
(32:12):
of go down this, this dark path where welet ourselves get to that point where we.
Idolize being burnt out or wearing itlike a bird, a badge of honor, kind of.
Right.
I was also one of those people, 100%.
And through the Burnt Chef, I foundthe Chow organization, which stands for
Culinary Hospitality Outreach Wellness.
And, um, I spent some time talkingto, like, to Kimberly and to Jazz
(32:34):
who are, um, like the, the, some ofthe, the people that help run the
organization and they, they are justsuch passionate and loving people who.
Really just connect with hospitalityworkers on a deeper level.
They talk two.
The stress of being like a bartenderor being front of house and
just feeling that pressure, thatstress to perform all the time.
(32:56):
To have that, that persona of this,this person who can't do any wrong or
is the person who's always in charge,or the person who has to be smiling
all the time and friendly all the time.
And if someone's screaming in yourface over things that you can't change,
you're not allowed to react to that.
You're just expected to smile throughit and be like, oh, I'm sorry.
And that's really stressfulfor a lot of people.
(33:18):
That's also another way to burnout employees is not, you know,
supporting them in that space,which is, chow is great at having
those support groups is essential.
My first chow meeting I went to, I justkind of unloaded on them and told them
everything I was going through and Ileft feeling so cathartic, so feeling so
whole after that, like I literally justcried after my first meeting 'cause I'm
(33:39):
like, wow, I'm allowed to have feelings.
Simon (33:44):
And access them.
Nio (33:45):
Yes.
And to actually process them in real time.
Because when you're on theline, you don't always have
that, you know that expectation.
You don't have the time to do that.
Simon (33:53):
Right.
Ah, I love it.
I. I can honestly say that's not somethingI have really ever been great at.
And I burnt myself out probably threetimes in my career and the last one stuck.
It's where I said, okay, that's enough.
Um, and I, for me, that was the good one.
'cause that's the one that ledme to where I am right now.
(34:15):
Absolutely.
Like getting to be letting,getting to be a consultant
advisor to chefs and getting to.
Play on a podcast and meet people from allover the country and all over the world.
That's great.
But it, it just blows my mindhow many people, like you said,
wear it as a badge of honor.
I was talking with somebodyand the guy said, burnout.
(34:37):
That's SOP.
Like he, he is like, that's the,like, that's table stakes for the
poker players in the room, right?
And I was like, huh.
I never really thought aboutit that way as, as my, myself,
myself personally, but Okay.
Like, I get it.
There's so many people that, that,that's just normal and I think it,
Nio (34:57):
it's, it's glorified for sure.
Simon (35:00):
Yeah.
I, I don't know.
I like, I enjoy, I enjoy the rest of lifeso much that I, I, I, now, I can't do it.
Like, I, I just refuse to allowmyself to, to get that to that place.
Nio (35:13):
Oh, I get it.
For sure.
And I think that that's a big part of it.
I mean, we, we confuse passionwith I think maybe just a
sense of belonging in a sense.
You know what I mean?
Like, this is where I feel like I belong.
This is where my talents lie, so this iswhat I need to pour all of my energy into.
It's like, well, yes, that's, that'simportant to develop skills and to
develop your, your abilities as a chef.
(35:35):
But it doesn't have to be everything.
I mean, you can develop skills elsewhere.
It's okay to, to take a little break fromthat for, for a day to just get some rest.
I mean, you can't be at anoptimal part, uh, point of
efficiency if you're constantlyburning the candle at both ends.
Yeah.
It affects your creativity.
It affects your stamina.
(35:56):
It affects your ability toactually be a chef if you don't
rest or hydrate or eat or sleep.
Simon (36:02):
Wait, say that again.
Say it again.
I mean, it's, it's the truth, right?
Like you gotta, uh.
You ca you would never expect a highperformance athlete to try and like jump
over the bar or do the whatever, youknow, like run down the field without
mix (36:20):
absolutely pro hydration
Simon (36:21):
and uh, a certain amount of rest.
And I mean, I think there's a reason whythey would play football once a week.
Right.
Nio (36:28):
Absolutely.
That's a fantastic point.
Simon (36:31):
You know, um, and I, I mean, I would never say that I'm an athlete, but
boy, when I go see my, when I go see myorthopedic surgeon and he, and, and he
looks at me and goes, are you an athlete?
I'm like.
Do I look like an athlete?
Like I got a chef's belly here.
Come on.
He goes, 'cause your knees are torn up.
(36:52):
What have you been doing?
And I'm like, I've beenon my, my feet for Yeah.
Cooking for 35 years.
Yeah.
No, it's, it's, it's, it's amazing thethings that we have allowed to be normal.
Right?
Those famous words.
Oh, that's how we've always done it.
I hate those words.
Nio (37:11):
I do too.
Ugh, that drives me crazy.
And it, it's glorified.
It's the, you know, this ishow you become successful.
This is how you get your own restaurant.
This is how you getyour name in the lights.
This is how you get a Michelin star.
This is how you become a real chefworthy of being the accolades that
you want and having this, this senseof purpose and drive and passion.
(37:32):
And, and like what you weresaying, it's very easy to get
burned by your own passion ifyou don't take care of yourself.
And it's just.
I think we just need to continue to talkabout that and to, to break through that
stigma where you have to, to essentiallydrive yourself into the ground to become
successful because that's not the case.
You don't have to do that, and it's crazyto continue to perpetuate that stigma.
Simon (37:54):
I got one for you.
You ready?
I'm ready.
So I was listening to a podcastand I was listening to a, a New
York City Chef Bemoan labor, uh,laws because they, they're not
allowed to do the shift pay anymore.
That, that was reallycommon in New York City.
Mm-hmm.
And I don't feel like it's.
Really, like you look around thecountry and almost everybody else
(38:16):
figured it out before they did.
Right.
But he's like, he's like, it's, you just,you can't, you can't become the same
kind of chef as you used to be able tobecome, because you know, you have to be
able to spend, you know, 15 hours a dayin the kitchen to like hone your skills.
I'm like, it's gotta be another way, man.
There's just gotta belike, okay, maybe, maybe.
Maybe it takes longer, not shorterto do it, which of course is not
(38:41):
what the youngsters nowadays want.
Oh, yeah.
Instant gratification.
You want immediate gratification.
Nio (38:48):
I mean, yes, that's true.
But I do also work with two, uh,two young, like right now I work
with two young culinary graduates,and they're very talented.
They're incredibly talented.
They can make some very deliciousfoods, but they're still learning.
I mean, they're 21 and 23, andevery time they make a mistake.
They go into kind of this likeanxiety ball where they're like,
I'm never gonna be anything.
I should quit my job.
(39:09):
And I'm like, brother, calm down.
You made one mistake.
Like we will fix it.
It's okay.
It's just that, it's that weirdsense of like what we were talking
about, the stigma where, you know,you're not allowed to make mistakes.
You have to be perfect all the timeand you have to work hard all the time.
And it's, it's okay to, to make a mistake.
That's how we all learn how to cook,is to make mistakes and get better.
Simon (39:30):
Yeah.
But you have to be.
There has to be somebodythere that says it's okay.
Learn.
Nio (39:38):
Yes, exactly.
Simon (39:41):
Um, yeah, I, I, I have a chef that is a client currently,
and he's like, he's one of the mostsoft spoken guys I've ever met.
And I said to the owner, I was like.
Does he run a good, like,does he run a tight ship?
I mean, I talked to him and we, I'vebeen coaching him through some other
things that he could get betterat, and I'm trying to get him to
manage his time a little better.
(40:03):
Um, and, and they're like, actually,he, he practically whispers in
the kitchen and everybody just.
Jumps and does exactly what hesays because that's amazing.
He, he, he takes care of them andhe lets them fail, and then he like
teaches them how to do it better.
I'm like, that's amazing.
That's just amazing.
But that's what, that's
Nio (40:21):
fantastic.
That's what we need.
Totally, totally.
We need to fall on our faces sometimes andthen be, have someone pick us up and be
like, all right, let's do it this way now.
Simon (40:28):
Like, let's not do that again.
Yeah,
Nio (40:31):
exactly.
Because unfortunately some peoplejust aren't gonna listen to you,
even if you be like, Hey, youknow, you really shouldn't do that.
Like, oh, I got it.
Don't worry about it.
Like, all right.
And then once they make the mistake,then they'll be like, all right,
I'll listen to you this time.
Simon (40:43):
I think most of my life I've believed that the one sure
way to understand that falling outof the tree hurts is by letting,
is by climbing the tree, right?
Like that's
like, oh, they're gonna fall, Yelp.
They sure are.
Yep.
And, and they're gonnaunderstand that that shit hurts.
mix (41:04):
Mm-hmm.
Simon (41:05):
And they might think twice about climbing the tree or they'll just climb
up saying, oh, I'm not gonna fall.
And guess what?
They're probably gonna fall again.
Nio (41:13):
I won't fall this time.
Simon (41:17):
Oh, 'cause no.
Yeah, no, it's, uh, that's,that's human behavior.
And I, and I get that, like that,that's just sort of built in and wired
and, um, I like to, I like to tellmy wife that, that men are idiots
anyway, so, you know, don't worry.
Um, we're gonna do thestupid shit no matter what.
Um, that's, it goes not.
(41:38):
I'm sure it is.
Yeah, I'm sure it is.
Yeah.
Well, we make our women
Nio (41:43):
make their mistakes differently, but we still make them.
Simon (41:46):
Yeah.
I, I think that men just hahave a, a hardwire to like
just do it bigger and more out.
Out in the open.
Like I, I feel like we we're, we're,we were taught as children to like,
take the dirt bike and run off the rampreally fast and just see what happens.
Nio (42:06):
Well, if you think about it, it's kind of an evolutionary advantage.
I mean, if you were constantly afraidto do the thing, I, we probably
wouldn't survive as a species.
I mean, if you were needed tosay, say cross the river, and
if everybody was like, Hmm,that's probably not a good idea.
'cause it's really dangerous.
You need that one person tobe like, oh, we got this.
Don't worry.
We're gonna figure it out.
And if that first person doesn't make it,then the second person will be like, all
(42:27):
right, well we saw that first guy didn'tdo it very well, so let's try it this way.
Yeah, let's
Simon (42:31):
try it different way.
Nio (42:32):
Kind of an evolutionary advantage that men are more
willing to take the risk.
We also have people who are willingto stand back and go, all right,
let's, let's watch these guys.
Try it first and then we'll see what Life
Simon (42:43):
Lessons by Darwin.
Is that what you're
Nio (42:45):
describing to me?
Essentially?
Simon (42:49):
Oh, I want a children's book called Life Lessons by Darwin.
Nio (42:53):
I think you should write it and make it like about chefs.
That would be amazing.
Simon (42:58):
The Chef's Guide to Darwinism.
Nio (43:00):
Yes.
Simon (43:02):
Okay.
I, I think you got me conf.
Con, I think you got me convinced.
I think I might have to write that.
I'll,
Nio (43:07):
I'll be the first one in line.
Simon (43:09):
Awesome.
You might be the only onein line, but that's okay.
Nio (43:12):
No, I think a lot of people would be interested in a book like that.
Simon (43:16):
Darwinism for Dummies.
Nio (43:18):
Yes.
mix (43:19):
Chef
Nio (43:19):
Edition.
Simon (43:23):
Oh my goodness.
All right.
We've covered some territory.
From the fryer to senior living, to mentalhealth, to Darwinistic life lessons.
Goodness gracious.
All right.
In the show notes, I'm gonna makesure that we can find you, uh,
(43:44):
so that people can connect andcheck out what you have to offer.
Um, thank you so much for joining me.
I, I really do appreciate it.
Nio (43:54):
I'm so honored to be with you.
Thank you for the invitation.
It was so much fun.
I love reading all your stuff on LinkedIn.
I, I thank you so grateful to havea voice like yours in our space,
because we need more of them.
We need more strong voices to say, Hey,the way we're doing it doesn't work.
Let's try something new.
Simon (44:10):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, can't just be Darwin.
It's, I mean, I think that,I guess the last is why we're
losing so many chefs, right?
The funny thing for me is that.
When chefs start to like focus, managetheir time a little bit better, they
(44:31):
manage themselves a little bit betterand then lead a little bit better.
All those things feel like they should.
They're just sort of like incidental.
But the reality is it's a business.
And when all those things start to click,the business starts to make more money.
And the first couple times I startedto see that I went, wait a minute.
(44:53):
Why?
I think I have to talk about thisin a different way because it's
not, for me, it is mental health,like that's super important.
But at the end of the day,like for me, I'm a businessman.
I wanna help people makemore money, whether it's my
business or their business.
And doing all of those things thattake care of us will, will be the
(45:16):
byproduct, will be potentially more.
More revenue, moreprofit, all those things.
Nio (45:24):
SOPs for mental health,
Simon (45:26):
SOPs for mental health will make you more money.
Nio (45:28):
Exactly.
Simon (45:29):
Subliminal.
That's what we need to do.
We need to create thesubliminal Darwinistic handbook.
Got it.
Um, once again, thank you so muchfor playing in my little sandbox
that I call culinary mechanic.
And all you out there, Iwill catch you next time.
You've been listeningto Culinary Mechanic.
This show exists to help you leadwith more clarity, build systems
(45:51):
that actually work and create akitchen culture worth showing up for.
If this episode helped you moveeven one step in that direction, do
me a favor, leave a quick review.
It helps more chefs and operators stop thechaos and start leading with intention.
You're listening toHeritage Radio Network.
I.
From kitchen chaos to well-oiled machines.
Get ready for newfangledtechnology and old school Know-how
(00:21):
stories and a good bit of fun.
I'm Simon, and this iscalled Area Mechanic.
. Simon (00:31):
Joining me today is Neo depe, Antonio, I got it right on the first try.
Welcome, Neo.
How are you?
Nio (00:40):
I am persisting.
How are you?
Chef Simon.
Simon (00:44):
Uh, I'm, I would say I'm probably sliding along the slip and slide.
How's that?
Nio (00:51):
You know what's funny is actually at our, our community today, they
did a slip and slide for the seniors.
Simon (00:58):
Hell yeah, they did.
Nio (01:00):
It was really interesting what they did.
So they laid out this huge, uh,plastic sheet and they got these
little, like life rafts so that theseniors could sit in it, and then they
pulled them on the, the, the wet tarp.
The life rafts and they hada grand old time doing it.
Simon (01:17):
No, no.
Like running and diving,sliding into home plate.
Nio (01:20):
I feel like that would be a little much for seniors, but I mean,
it would still would've been hilarious.
That's what we did with ourgeneration, but they had fun with it.
I was
Simon (01:28):
gonna say, that's what I would do.
Like, ah, you know,
Nio (01:31):
I'm sure there would've been some lawsuits involved otherwise.
Simon (01:35):
I think so.
I think so.
Uh, just a visual on thatis killing me right here.
Um.
All right.
Let's press on the gas.
It's culinary mechanic.
Tell me about how you came tothe restaurant or the kitchen or
the, the food service industry.
Nio (01:51):
Oh God.
So I started when I was 16 years old.
I had just graduated high school andum, I got a job at kind of like a
local restaurant, ice cream shop, oneof those kind of like burger joints.
And I was there for a long time.
Um, but I started as a hostess.
And one day one of our, uh, cooksnever showed up for their shift.
So my manager said, Hey,can you go work the fryer?
(02:12):
'cause we don't haveenough people back there.
So that's kind of howI got started cooking.
Um, somebody didn't show up and I didand I was willing to give it a try.
So that's what I started there.
From there, I spent some time kind ofjust learning the ropes, learning how to
make a decent burger, learning about friedfood, learning how to work the grills
and clean a fryer, and I did pick upsome like part-time jobs at other places
(02:34):
to kind of learn more about cooking.
I started doing somelike culinary classes.
To get a feel for things.
Um, I was very fortunate that I hada mentor who was willing to, to spend
some time with me and take the timeto teach me, um, which was fantastic.
I loved him so much.
Um, but unfortunately he passedaway from a drug overdose, so
that was very sad about that.
Yeah, yeah.
(02:55):
It claims a lot of lives inour industry, unfortunately.
But from there, I've, uh, I've beencooking for at least 18 years now.
I love it very much.
From transitioning from restaurants intothe senior living space is where I am now.
I like to cook for the seniors.
It's very, somethingvery passionate about.
Simon (03:12):
That's awesome.
I You love it.
Saw something on, I feellike it was probably LinkedIn
Nio (03:18):
probably.
Simon (03:20):
Where you're talking about like the immediate feedback, and I
can just imagine, you know, somebody'sgrandma coming, coming down into
the kitchen, giving, like, givingyou the business about something.
Nio (03:32):
Oh, it's, it's intense.
Like you have to have some thick skin tocook for the senior community for sure.
Really?
Yeah.
So I don't know if you'veever had the pleasure.
Um, it, it is a lot of fun, but you dohave to be very open to criticism because
we do have to meet with a culinarycommittee meeting every two weeks, and
it's made up of residents who wanna sitdown with us and tell us what they like
(03:55):
about the menu, what they don't like aboutthe menu, what they wanna see on the menu,
um, what, what things they wish they hadthat we don't have, that kind of thing.
And, um, they can be very honest.
They're a little spicysometimes, but it's, you just,
you can't take it personally.
You have to be willing to listen towhat they want, because ultimately
that's who you're cooking for.
You need to make sure they'rehappy with what they get.
(04:17):
But sometimes, you know, it'sthe greatest thing they've ever
had, and other days they're like,I wouldn't give that to my dog.
And I'm like, damn.
Simon (04:27):
I mean, I think back, I, I spent a couple years, um, living
with my grandparents and theywere 89 and 90 in those years.
mix (04:38):
Mm-hmm.
Simon (04:38):
And, you know, my, my grandmother was still cooking for her husband and.
And the, you know, when the kidswould show up, we were, we're
all in their fifties and sixties.
Um, I think I was in my twenties atthat point, but, you know, she was still
cooking and every once in a while I, Iwas, I was staying there and it turned
out that on my nights off I would, Iwould get to cook and, and I, it's,
(05:04):
at first my, my grandmother was like.
I don't know.
And I was like, grandma, I cookfor hundreds of people a day.
Nio (05:12):
She wasn't willing to surrender her kitchen to you.
Simon (05:14):
Yeah.
I think that was part of it, right.
You know, but I think pork chops was the,was the, like the real deal, like game
changer on that one because I, I madepork chops and she went, oh, I didn't
think she, she says mine usually go aboutsix minutes on each side and I thought.
(05:34):
They're not even a half an inch thick.
Okay.
And so when I did them, I sateverybody at the table and then I
threw 'em in the pan and like let'em sit for a minute, put 'em out.
And she's like, this is the best thing.
You're the only person in thishouse allowed to cook pork chops.
So, you know, but the king of
Nio (05:52):
pork chops undisputed,
Simon (05:54):
I'm telling you.
Um, that's why I put apig on my arm, you know?
Uh, 'cause I love that.
Yeah.
It says, what would you do for bacon?
Nio (06:05):
It's a good saying.
Um,
Simon (06:07):
all right, so let's, let's kind of slide on the, on the, the
history scale here a little bit,like in between the beginning, right?
You get in and, and, uh.
The transition to, I do wanna goback to the, the senior living, but
like, of course in between that,like what are the things that like
(06:28):
kept you like rolling with food?
Because for me there's always thoselike, like barbed hooks that keep
you in the industry and you'relike, I can't live without this.
Oh, absolutely.
Nio (06:39):
Absolutely.
So, I mean, it definitelystarted when I was young.
I mean, I started cookingwhen I was three years old.
My grandmother and my Nonawere both, were both chefs.
I mean, in, in a traditional sense.
Like my and my Nona did cook back home.
But my grandmother was justalways the one who cooked.
I mean, she taught me how to doa lot of different things too.
And my Nona said, if you're old enough towalk, you're old enough to hold a knife.
So that's when I started learninghow to chop vegetables and prepare
(07:01):
meats and, and carve chickens andcut roasts and stuff like that.
I mean, that was just.
An essential part of the culture.
That's what we learned as a family.
And I kind of carried that withme when I went into the restaurant
industry and definitely the senseof the people I loved being around,
kind of that, that camaraderie.
I would say for sure.
(07:22):
There are people who, um, whoare definitely more back of
house than front of house.
Yeah.
Who have that personality.
Um, I think that I kind offall in between, like I, I
can do front of house stuff.
I'm, I'm comfortable withit, but I definitely prefer.
Getting my hands dirty and,and just getting in and doing
things and making things.
And it just, it, it's a sense of passion.
(07:43):
It's getting to create something fromlittle things and doing it as part of
a team and it, it can get very chaotic.
I mean, I was, at one point I wasworking in a restaurant that was
doing like 70, $80,000 a week.
And that's, I mean, that's a lot forsome people and not so much for others.
But that's busy.
That's a busy restaurant.
Yeah.
And you have to be ableto keep up with that.
And that's not easy.
(08:03):
Some people can get veryburnt out with that.
Having a good team behind youthat that can communicate and is
willing to kind of help you pickup the slap when you fall down.
Having that sense of true teamwork isthere, I mean, there's nothing like it.
There's nothing like thatanywhere in the world
Simon (08:18):
for sure.
I feel like the I, I feel like I. I'mstaring at my wall going, I remember
the days when like you could justwatch seven or eight guys and gals
and everybody's just flowing fromleft to right and back and forth.
Yep.
And, and people are going down andup and, you know, and, and just the
(08:38):
food's just flying into the window.
Um,
Nio (08:41):
and there's a rhythm to it for sure.
Its like its own little dance thatyou don't even realize you're doing
until you're in the middle of it.
Simon (08:48):
Yeah, I read something two, three days ago and it was this guy
talking about his, his definition ofleadership, and I thought, I'm not sure
if I'm gonna continue to read this.
And then he got to the bottomand it was three words.
It was ritual, repetition,rhythm, and I went.
(09:10):
I don't know if that's leadership,but I love those three words together.
You know, I, I think that finding a,finding a team that starts to hum.
Right?
Like, I, uh, for me, culinary mechanic,I talk about restaurants and kitchens
that, that work like a well-oiled machine.
mix (09:29):
Mm-hmm.
Like when
Simon (09:30):
you feel that and everybody knows what's expected and everybody knows
the, the goods and the bads together.
Um.
Man, there's justnothing better, you know,
Nio (09:39):
there.
It's true.
I mean, you do have to be a littlecrazy to keep going back to that.
I, I admit that, but it's, it's thatsense of just knowing that, one, you
can do it and two, that you want to.
I mean, when, when you have a really goodsupport and a good background and you
know that you can handle it, it's, youfeel like you just wanna keep doing it.
Simon (09:59):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think for me it was always there,there was a point, not always, but
there was a point where I. Like, howmany big events can we take on too?
Nio (10:10):
Exactly, yes.
It's almost like a little challenge.
It's like, alright, how, howquickly can we get this order
out or this catering order out?
Simon (10:16):
Right.
Um, I worked for a place justsouth of San Francisco for a little
while and the general managerwas like, our sales are light.
I'm like, well, what do youwant me to, like, how, how would
you like me to like, you have a
Nio (10:31):
magic wand.
Yeah.
Simon (10:34):
Um.
More stakes?
No.
She, she said, well, I, I wanna, Iwanna, the airport is two miles away.
How do we get?
And I was like, I don't know.
And so we talked to our, likethe company marketing person.
Next thing I know, like by the.
Grace of the universe.
(10:55):
We have a a, a table like in theevening of six chefs and they all worked
for something called Gate Gourmet.
And the the, the chef is looking,you know, one of the guys, he is
like, can I talk to the chef and.
Sends me out which one I waslike, and I was like, okay,
(11:16):
what, what, what's going on?
How, how can I help you?
He goes, would you be willing to dosome catering for, for some NBA teams?
And I was like, what?
And it turned out that like they, theypartnered with local restaurants to.
Do food, and it was the first timeI'd ever done something like that.
(11:37):
They sent me cases of this veryspecific aluminum container.
I'd never seen, like they werelike seven by nine inches, like
nothing I'd ever seen in any store.
Like it was very specific and theysent me all the lids and everything
and like it can only be packed in this.
And you can only set this many likeof these things to a bo, to a a
(12:01):
box, and it was very, very specific.
But we used to blast that stuffout before we opened at 1115.
Nice.
And we sometimes do asmany as 60 meals, right?
So I always think about like, yeah,the challenges that you can put upon
yourself just to do a little bitmore money or to do the next thing.
(12:21):
It was, it was, it was pretty cool.
After a while, although Isaid, no, no more, thank you.
Bye.
Because it wasn't, it wasn't,well, we were heading into summer
and business was there, right?
It was like, eh.
So, uh, I, I, I decided to, to go thefour, four wall marketing route anyway.
(12:42):
Like, let's make our food better,let's make sure that everything
we put out is awesome and theguests guest counts will go up.
And knock on wood, it actually worked.
Um, so I don't know, like.
I think about kitchens and latelyI've been talking about thinking about
leadership and systems and as youand I were warming up for this, we
(13:02):
were starting to talk about systems.
So I don't know, I'm gonna likeopen it up and say, tell me what you
love about like systems in kitchens.
Let's pause for a second.
If you're serious about building a kitchenthat leads from the top runs on systems
and actually feels good to work in, makesure you're following culinary mechanic.
(13:24):
This show is all about helping youlead better, scale smarter, and
stop white knuckling your business.
And if you're ready to dig in deeper,you'll find a link in the show
notes to connect with me directly.
Tell me what you love about like systems in kitchens.
Nio (13:39):
I love a well maintained system that makes sense.
So it has to make senseand it has to flow.
You have to be able to stepinto it at any point and still
be able to get things done.
So when you have a really clear SOP ora way to get things done, or just even
having like your strategies in place,or your cleaning schedules in place, and
(14:01):
then it's actually followed, everythingelse falls into place and you need to
be able to, it does have to be a littleadaptable, so you do need to be able
to shift things around, but Right.
No matter what happens,it should still be like.
An instruction guide forwhat needs to be done.
So anybody should be able to step inand do what needs to be done regardless
of who it is without question.
(14:22):
And then you should just know that andtrust your team that it's gonna get done.
It shouldn't be like a,well, who's gonna do this?
And who's gonna do that?
Well, who's in charge of this?
And, oh, this didn't get done because noone checked this box and no one looked at
this item, or no one checked this prep.
Like if you have the right systemsin place, everything gets done.
You don't have to question it.
You don't have to wonder.
Simon (14:43):
Yeah, I, I always love when, when I go into a, uh, a new kitchen or a new
client and I started asking questions, andeverybody starts pointing to one person.
Do you love that?
Like when everythingcentralized drives a ball?
mix (14:57):
Hate that
Simon (14:59):
I was, I was costing a menu for a, for a quick serve company.
They had four restaurantsand a commissary.
And I was like, so how do you, like,I see all these different buckets and
some of the buckets have red writing andsome of 'em have green writing on 'em.
How do I know which one?
And they said, oh.
So-and-so gives us the bucketsfor, for each project as
(15:21):
we're, as we start the day.
So basically he writes the preplist and then he goes and get, I'm
like, what if he gets hit by a car?
Yeah, exactly.
Like what?
What if he's sick and they're like, oh,the, we have an assistant manager and.
And I was like, okay.
And they pointed him out.
I'm like, that son of a bitch rode inthe same car with that dude this morning.
Nio (15:44):
What happens if they get into a car
Simon (15:45):
accident?
Then nobody knows what to do.
I'm like, I'm like, I'm notsure that I said, so like.
How, like, tell me like,how, well, I don't know.
The owner looks at me and he goes, Idon't know, he just figures it all out.
I was like, no.
So let's document a couple things.
Mm-hmm.
Just document the processes, you know?
Um, yeah, I, I, I, Iget a kick out of that.
(16:05):
I, I, I love how sometimes everythingfunnels through one person.
It's like, man, do youunderstand what you're, you know.
Like that person's nowstrapped to that table.
Like they might as well have a, a balland a shackle and the whole thing.
Nio (16:22):
Well, when I was, when I was a general manager, I was that
person, but that's also the waythat our structure was set up.
And it was, it was unsustainable.
I mean, there was times where I, I had to.
Either be the manager on duty, alsotry to run a drive-through window.
Try to do inventory at thesame time while we're open.
Um, make sure the truckorder is coming in.
(16:43):
Make sure our beverages are coming inthat wasn't on the same truck order.
This was an independent company.
Also make sure the shift is running okay.
'cause we have a full dining room.
Uh, make sure the hostess isokay 'cause she's trying to deal
with all these parties tryingto come in at the same time.
Make sure the grill's going okay.
That's a lot for one person to handle,and it's, it's really not sustainable.
That's the first way that you'regonna burn out your managers.
Simon (17:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Uh, talk about burnout managers.
I, I think, I think about like greatemployees and as I call 'em the
great doers of the world, right?
These are the people that get promotedand we, we promote them because they.
(17:26):
Can do stuff.
Amazing.
Whether they're cooks or whetherthey're like, they're great servers,
does not mean they're gonna bea great manager, by the way.
Nio (17:33):
Absolutely.
Simon (17:34):
Um, or if they are, it's because they just go into
what I call like super mode.
Right?
Like they, they, they go from beingthe best cook to the best cook plus,
plus the manager rather than leader.
And I, I tell people, I'm like,so you gotta teach them how to.
(17:55):
Teach.
Nio (17:58):
It's not intrinsic.
It's not something that just fallsin your lap and you know how to do.
And one of the problems is a lot ofpeople, especially, I was 18 years
old when I was promoted to a manager,I was 18, and it was for the same
reason that I was promoted to a cookbecause someone didn't show up and
they needed someone to fill in a slot.
I was 18.
And you were willing to
Simon (18:17):
do the work?
Nio (18:18):
Absolutely.
But I was an 18-year-old kidand I was still a teenager.
I mean, I was a legal, almosta legal adult now, but I was an
18-year-old kid in charge of like30, 40, and 50-year-old people.
Like they're not automatically gonnalisten to me just because you slapped
a set of keys in my hands and youstuck a manager batch to my chest.
I had no business being a managerat 18, but I tried my damnedest
Simon (18:40):
right.
I, I was a little older than that.
I think I was probably 23, 24.
I was the chef to cuisine andno, that that was garbage.
Um, but I, it.
Was enough of a traumatic experiencethat I was like, no, I think I'll, uh,
I think I'll close my toolbox and goback into the kitchen and stay there.
mix (19:02):
I get it.
And,
Simon (19:02):
and cook for a few more years until I'm really ready because that was bad.
Right?
It, it's, I, I, I remember makingdecisions and understanding as
the day would go on going, I'mmaking poor decisions 'cause I have
no fucking clue what I'm doing.
I agree.
Yeah, I, so now I, now I try tofind ways to help people understand,
(19:27):
teach as much as you learn andteach others how you teach.
Because if you're leading, hopefullyyou're, you're on, you've already
gotten some of that, and you can likekeep, you can start to get culture
moving, move the culture flywheel byteaching how you wanna be taught, right.
Nio (19:49):
And when I was that young, I mean a lot of my education came from
how I didn't want to be a leader.
And I think that's kind of the way,especially for a lot of young, young
people in the industry, is we learnthrough watching and we learn through
seeing how we don't wanna be treated orhow we don't want others to be treated.
I remember I was 17.
The first time I met one of our, like our,our big, our big wigs, I'll call them.
(20:12):
One of the, the head honchos that wasour regional director of the restaurant
that I was working at at the time.
And this person came in and they were,they were helping out on the floor.
They were trying to get things moving'cause it was a busy lunch period.
And, um, they had brought out a bowlof chowder to a guest and he brought
it back and there was a server standingnext to him and he dipped his fingers in
(20:34):
the chowder and wiped it on the server'sarm and goes, does this feel hot to you?
The server looks over at himlike confused, like, what?
Why did you just wipe that on me?
And he shoves it back at the,across the, the counter at us
and goes, this is lukewarm.
I expect better of you guys.
This needs to be hot.
I need a fresh bowl of chowder, please.
And we're like, okay, sorry.
You know, we apologized and we put outa hot bowl of chowder, but this, this
(20:55):
little like teenage server went outback and started crying because this
guy just talked down to her like shewas dirt and wiped chowder on her arm.
I'm like, how childish is that?
First of all, and I was livid.
I was pissed.
I was ready to throw hands with thisguy, even though I knew who he was.
I'm like, why do you think that?
That's okay.
I was a wicked hotheadwhen I was that age.
I mean, I still kind of am, but I've tonedit down a little bit in my adulthood.
(21:18):
But I just, I see things like that and I'mlike, why do we think that this is okay?
Why do we as leaders look atpeople like this and think it's
okay to treat them like that?
How would you respond to that ifsomeone wiped chowder on you and
said, do you think this is acceptable?
I'd knock him
Simon (21:31):
out.
Nio (21:32):
Yeah, absolutely.
Simon (21:34):
You know what's funny is I, I worked for a, a a, a kind of a big
company in LA and we, I was talkingwith the corporate catering chef,
and he had been around a while.
He had been like, the original, he'dbeen around since the company had
was one restaurant and at that pointthere, I think there were 25, 26
restaurants and we were talking about.
(21:57):
That behavior, right?
Like that chef behavior that we, weall have seen and we've all heard
Nio (22:03):
Oh yeah.
Simon (22:03):
I've heard stories about, and you know, Gordon Ramsey has given us
cartoonish, um, uh, caricatures of, um,he's not like that every day, by the way.
I got to Oh no, I
Nio (22:13):
know, I know.
He hams it up for the cameras.
Simon (22:15):
Yeah, he's definitely a showman.
Um, and this guy said something thathas stuck with me for 20 plus years now.
He said, in this company.
Genius accompanied if, if you are genius.
If you are amazing.
Like the food you're putting out isstunning, asshole is accommodated,
Nio (22:38):
ugh.
Simon (22:40):
Was like, its allowed,
Nio (22:41):
it's acceptable.
Uh,
Simon (22:42):
yeah.
And not just tolerated, accommodated.
And I thought to myself, thisis not just this company.
Right?
And so it's that whole thing oflike, if you're amazing, we're
gonna tolerate it because you'regonna bring something to us.
And that's that always like when I'mdealing with employees that are just.
(23:05):
Like, they're just, they're,they've, they've got nails coming
down the chalkboard, right?
Like that's what their behavior is doing.
For me, I ask myself, am I, amI accommodating this person?
Because they're amazing at what they do.
It's like, it's like that assholegrill cook that gets away with
everything because the guy or gal or,I mean, I've seen gals who do it too.
Nio (23:27):
Oh, absolutely.
It's not gender specific.
They are, they
Simon (23:29):
treat everybody like shit because they are the moneymaker.
Nio (23:32):
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Simon (23:34):
Um, worked in enough steakhouses where that was reality and no thank you.
Um, oh
Nio (23:39):
yeah, I've done a, I did a part-time gig when I was, you know, I was trying to
save up money for my wedding, and I workedwith a head chef who, who was brilliant.
Like you said.
He was amazing, but the turnaroundin that kitchen was ridiculous.
At one point.
It was literally just me and himleft, and every time he got angry
he would throw something and it, atthis one point, it was a potholder.
Just hit me in the side of the head,but that was my breaking point.
(24:00):
I'm like, next time it could be aknife or a pot or something else.
I'm like, I'm done with this nonsense.
I don't deserve that shit.
Simon (24:07):
Nope.
No, it's, it's, it's fascinating.
Um, and.
I feel like a lot of that has gone away.
I'm sure there's some of it.
I'm sure there's still folksthrowing temper tantrums,
like they're three years old.
Um, and for me personally, I wishthat their parents had just used
the word no a couple more times andthen, then life would be better.
(24:27):
But, um, uh, you know, even beyondthat, I look at some of the things
that have been normal, right?
Like I remember.
The first time that I couldn't getoutta bed because I was so sick and
I yielded and I, my wife and I hadbeen married probably 15 years at
(24:52):
that point, and she said, you know,I think you've proven you're metal.
Enough times.
And I said, what do you mean?
She goes, we've been married 15 yearsand you've never called out sick.
Once she goes, zero in 15 years, howabout if you just started a new tally?
And I was like, okay.
(25:12):
Because I, why?
One, I just remember, I, Icouldn't, I remember sitting on,
sitting on the chair that I usedto like get dressed in the morning.
You know, and I'm, I remember leadingover to put up, put my socks on,
and I fell off the chair off theside and I just, I was like, well,
Nio (25:29):
I'm so sorry.
Yeah.
Simon (25:29):
I think I have to yield.
Nio (25:32):
Yeah, we all reached that point.
I mean, unfortunately I did too.
I was 27 and uh, I unfortunatelysuffered a, it was small, but it was
a minor stroke, and that happenedbecause I was pushing myself.
I was working 18 hour days.
I was working seven days a week becauseit was, um, it was, it was just madness.
We were short staffed.
We were busy all the time.
I didn't have enough staff and Iwasn't trusting them enough to take
(25:53):
on some of the responsibilitiesthat I should have let them do.
And it was, it was a recipefor disaster and unfortunately
it led to a minor stroke.
Simon (26:02):
27.
Nio (26:03):
27.
Simon (26:06):
Wow.
You're a statistic somewhere.
Nio (26:09):
I'm sure that's.
Simon (26:12):
Either that or a case study
Nio (26:14):
one of the two.
Yeah.
I mean, mm-hmm.
Some of it was due to, I wasabusing caffeine at the time.
I was taking caffeine pills and drinkingenergy drinks just to get through the
day, just to get through the shift and getup for the next day, and it was just it.
It spiraled outta control,
Simon (26:27):
huh?
Yeah, that makes me think about like.
Now I'm in my fifties.
Right.
And I've, I've had some time to thinkabout my thirties, twenties, and
thirties and forties and done been inthe last three years I've done a lot
of reading and some of the readingI've done is around some of the
stuff from Harvard Business Review.
(26:49):
Mm. And I don't know if you're awareof this, but like one of their studies
found that like we as human beings.
After about seven hours ofintense work, our decision making
capacity like starts to go down.
I'm like, seven hours.
Whatcha talking about, I used to work 14as a regular thing and it's like, huh?
(27:12):
How do we, like, can Ihave a megaphone please?
Like, can we say this stuff louder?
Right, right in the backfor the people in the back.
You don't make better decisionswhen you're fucking tired.
Yeah.
Facts, right?
And so like teach, like when I startto talk to chefs and owners about
(27:34):
this kind of stuff, and they're like,oh, well it's just too expensive.
I'm like, expensive.
I bet you I can save you money byhiring, getting you to hire a couple
more people and getting everybodyto operate at an optimal level
rather than the traditional level.
And sometimes people buy itand sometimes they don't.
And usually the people that don't.
(27:57):
A, I don't get my contact,my contract renewed with them
because, and BI usually fire them.
I'm like, if we're not gonnamake progress, like then you
don't need to gimme the money.
I'll go find it somewhere else.
Well,
Nio (28:12):
yeah, I mean, I, I can just imagine it's like beating
your head against a rock.
I mean, at, at what point do you feel likeyour words are just falling on deaf ears?
Simon (28:20):
Yeah.
And, and I think I, I've been luckyenough now recently to find some people
who, like, I've got some differentideas about things in the world.
You know, like I, I talk with people allthe time about, let's work on managing
people into the huddle, not pushingthem with a stiff arm out, right?
Like.
(28:40):
Get buy-in, get consensus, getpeople to work with you, not against
you, like stop treating everythingas an adversarial sort of thing.
And it's phenomenal and passion,
Nio (28:50):
not apathy.
Simon (28:52):
Right?
But, but passion is, isis like the, is like the.
What is it?
It's the tachometer on in your car, right?
It's got a little red line for me.
The line, there's a really thinline between passion and an asshole.
Right?
And so like that red line myhusband agree with is asshole.
It's, what's that?
Nio (29:11):
I think my husband would agree with you.
Simon (29:14):
Totally.
It's like, like how many times haveyou heard, oh, they're just passionate.
I'm sorry.
Fuck off.
Right.
You're lying to yourself.
They're not just passionate.
They're being allowed to be anasshole because they're brilliant
or because they get the job doneor because they're passionate.
Nio (29:34):
I'm
Simon (29:34):
sorry.
No man.
Nio (29:35):
Or because people are afraid to stand up to them.
Simon (29:38):
Right.
And it's, and when you realize that.
Every time that happens, there's some,there's an employee standing somewhere
in that space that has just clickedthe switch in their brain that says
there's an expiration on how long Iwill tolerate this every single time.
Nio (29:58):
Absolutely.
You know,
Simon (29:59):
but yeah, it's a red line like passion.
Amazing.
Awesome.
But at some point it burns too hot.
Right?
And if you let it burn toohot, we get that other thing.
Okay.
We've talked about some fun stuff.
I guess we gotta be seriousfor half a second here.
(30:19):
You've done, like, you gota, you got a nonprofit?
I do.
Uh, you work with the Burt Shef project.
You work with chow.
Tell me about some of the, tellme, tell me some fun stories about
getting to work with those folks.
'cause I think that it's somethingthat needs to be elevated
(30:42):
into people's consciousness.
Nio (30:43):
Absolutely.
So the Burnt Chef really kindof stalked me from leaving the
industry first and foremost.
I was, it was during COVIDwhen I actually started paying
attention to the Burnt Chef.
And that was, I mean, COVIDwas no good for anybody.
Um, but especially therestaurant industry.
I, that was, I was still doing thegeneral manager thing at that time,
recovering from my stroke and stillworking and trying to have a work life
(31:04):
balance now on top of a global pandemic.
And that was at that time thatI found the BET Chef Project.
And I was listening to a podcastthat Chris Hall had been on.
Where he was talking abouthow we shouldn't have to
sacrifice our health and.
What we love about the industryjust to keep being in it.
We shouldn't let that burn ourselves out.
Like we have to take better careof ourselves if we wanna do what
(31:27):
we do and keep doing it right.
And that's really kind of like whatlit a switch in my brain is like,
this is the first time I've everheard somebody say that and mean it.
You know what I mean?
Someone who's been in the industryand then I'm like, okay, maybe
you know this is, this is real.
This is something that is sustainable.
Like I don't have to leave the industryto keep cooking 'cause I really
didn't want to, but I had to makesome healthy life choices to do that.
(31:48):
So I started getting involvedwith the Burnt Chef project
and I became an ambassador.
And part of that is reaching out to otherchefs and trying to, if, if they need
help, helping them get the resourcesthey need, whether they're dealing with
like anxiety, depression, um, if they'redealing, uh, dealing with like a substance
use disorder or just connecting with otherpeople who are feeling stressed out and
having that really tough conversationof, well, why do we let ourselves kind
(32:12):
of go down this, this dark path where welet ourselves get to that point where we.
Idolize being burnt out or wearing itlike a bird, a badge of honor, kind of.
Right.
I was also one of those people, 100%.
And through the Burnt Chef, I foundthe Chow organization, which stands for
Culinary Hospitality Outreach Wellness.
And, um, I spent some time talkingto, like, to Kimberly and to Jazz
(32:34):
who are, um, like the, the, some ofthe, the people that help run the
organization and they, they are justsuch passionate and loving people who.
Really just connect with hospitalityworkers on a deeper level.
They talk two.
The stress of being like a bartenderor being front of house and
just feeling that pressure, thatstress to perform all the time.
(32:56):
To have that, that persona of this,this person who can't do any wrong or
is the person who's always in charge,or the person who has to be smiling
all the time and friendly all the time.
And if someone's screaming in yourface over things that you can't change,
you're not allowed to react to that.
You're just expected to smile throughit and be like, oh, I'm sorry.
And that's really stressfulfor a lot of people.
(33:18):
That's also another way to burnout employees is not, you know,
supporting them in that space,which is, chow is great at having
those support groups is essential.
My first chow meeting I went to, I justkind of unloaded on them and told them
everything I was going through and Ileft feeling so cathartic, so feeling so
whole after that, like I literally justcried after my first meeting 'cause I'm
(33:39):
like, wow, I'm allowed to have feelings.
Simon (33:44):
And access them.
Nio (33:45):
Yes.
And to actually process them in real time.
Because when you're on theline, you don't always have
that, you know that expectation.
You don't have the time to do that.
Simon (33:53):
Right.
Ah, I love it.
I. I can honestly say that's not somethingI have really ever been great at.
And I burnt myself out probably threetimes in my career and the last one stuck.
It's where I said, okay, that's enough.
Um, and I, for me, that was the good one.
'cause that's the one that ledme to where I am right now.
(34:15):
Absolutely.
Like getting to be letting,getting to be a consultant
advisor to chefs and getting to.
Play on a podcast and meet people from allover the country and all over the world.
That's great.
But it, it just blows my mindhow many people, like you said,
wear it as a badge of honor.
I was talking with somebodyand the guy said, burnout.
(34:37):
That's SOP.
Like he, he is like, that's the,like, that's table stakes for the
poker players in the room, right?
And I was like, huh.
I never really thought aboutit that way as, as my, myself,
myself personally, but Okay.
Like, I get it.
There's so many people that, that,that's just normal and I think it,
Nio (34:57):
it's, it's glorified for sure.
Simon (35:00):
Yeah.
I, I don't know.
I like, I enjoy, I enjoy the rest of lifeso much that I, I, I, now, I can't do it.
Like, I, I just refuse to allowmyself to, to get that to that place.
Nio (35:13):
Oh, I get it.
For sure.
And I think that that's a big part of it.
I mean, we, we confuse passionwith I think maybe just a
sense of belonging in a sense.
You know what I mean?
Like, this is where I feel like I belong.
This is where my talents lie, so this iswhat I need to pour all of my energy into.
It's like, well, yes, that's, that'simportant to develop skills and to
develop your, your abilities as a chef.
(35:35):
But it doesn't have to be everything.
I mean, you can develop skills elsewhere.
It's okay to, to take a little break fromthat for, for a day to just get some rest.
I mean, you can't be at anoptimal part, uh, point of
efficiency if you're constantlyburning the candle at both ends.
Yeah.
It affects your creativity.
It affects your stamina.
(35:56):
It affects your ability toactually be a chef if you don't
rest or hydrate or eat or sleep.
Simon (36:02):
Wait, say that again.
Say it again.
I mean, it's, it's the truth, right?
Like you gotta, uh.
You ca you would never expect a highperformance athlete to try and like jump
over the bar or do the whatever, youknow, like run down the field without
mix (36:20):
absolutely pro hydration
Simon (36:21):
and uh, a certain amount of rest.
And I mean, I think there's a reason whythey would play football once a week.
Right.
Nio (36:28):
Absolutely.
That's a fantastic point.
Simon (36:31):
You know, um, and I, I mean, I would never say that I'm an athlete, but
boy, when I go see my, when I go see myorthopedic surgeon and he, and, and he
looks at me and goes, are you an athlete?
I'm like.
Do I look like an athlete?
Like I got a chef's belly here.
Come on.
He goes, 'cause your knees are torn up.
(36:52):
What have you been doing?
And I'm like, I've beenon my, my feet for Yeah.
Cooking for 35 years.
Yeah.
No, it's, it's, it's, it's amazing thethings that we have allowed to be normal.
Right?
Those famous words.
Oh, that's how we've always done it.
I hate those words.
Nio (37:11):
I do too.
Ugh, that drives me crazy.
And it, it's glorified.
It's the, you know, this ishow you become successful.
This is how you get your own restaurant.
This is how you getyour name in the lights.
This is how you get a Michelin star.
This is how you become a real chefworthy of being the accolades that
you want and having this, this senseof purpose and drive and passion.
(37:32):
And, and like what you weresaying, it's very easy to get
burned by your own passion ifyou don't take care of yourself.
And it's just.
I think we just need to continue to talkabout that and to, to break through that
stigma where you have to, to essentiallydrive yourself into the ground to become
successful because that's not the case.
You don't have to do that, and it's crazyto continue to perpetuate that stigma.
Simon (37:54):
I got one for you.
You ready?
I'm ready.
So I was listening to a podcastand I was listening to a, a New
York City Chef Bemoan labor, uh,laws because they, they're not
allowed to do the shift pay anymore.
That, that was reallycommon in New York City.
Mm-hmm.
And I don't feel like it's.
Really, like you look around thecountry and almost everybody else
(38:16):
figured it out before they did.
Right.
But he's like, he's like, it's, you just,you can't, you can't become the same
kind of chef as you used to be able tobecome, because you know, you have to be
able to spend, you know, 15 hours a dayin the kitchen to like hone your skills.
I'm like, it's gotta be another way, man.
There's just gotta belike, okay, maybe, maybe.
Maybe it takes longer, not shorterto do it, which of course is not
(38:41):
what the youngsters nowadays want.
Oh, yeah.
Instant gratification.
You want immediate gratification.
Nio (38:48):
I mean, yes, that's true.
But I do also work with two, uh,two young, like right now I work
with two young culinary graduates,and they're very talented.
They're incredibly talented.
They can make some very deliciousfoods, but they're still learning.
I mean, they're 21 and 23, andevery time they make a mistake.
They go into kind of this likeanxiety ball where they're like,
I'm never gonna be anything.
I should quit my job.
(39:09):
And I'm like, brother, calm down.
You made one mistake.
Like we will fix it.
It's okay.
It's just that, it's that weirdsense of like what we were talking
about, the stigma where, you know,you're not allowed to make mistakes.
You have to be perfect all the timeand you have to work hard all the time.
And it's, it's okay to, to make a mistake.
That's how we all learn how to cook,is to make mistakes and get better.
Simon (39:30):
Yeah.
But you have to be.
There has to be somebodythere that says it's okay.
Learn.
Nio (39:38):
Yes, exactly.
Simon (39:41):
Um, yeah, I, I, I have a chef that is a client currently,
and he's like, he's one of the mostsoft spoken guys I've ever met.
And I said to the owner, I was like.
Does he run a good, like,does he run a tight ship?
I mean, I talked to him and we, I'vebeen coaching him through some other
things that he could get betterat, and I'm trying to get him to
manage his time a little better.
(40:03):
Um, and, and they're like, actually,he, he practically whispers in
the kitchen and everybody just.
Jumps and does exactly what hesays because that's amazing.
He, he, he takes care of them andhe lets them fail, and then he like
teaches them how to do it better.
I'm like, that's amazing.
That's just amazing.
But that's what, that's
Nio (40:21):
fantastic.
That's what we need.
Totally, totally.
We need to fall on our faces sometimes andthen be, have someone pick us up and be
like, all right, let's do it this way now.
Simon (40:28):
Like, let's not do that again.
Yeah,
Nio (40:31):
exactly.
Because unfortunately some peoplejust aren't gonna listen to you,
even if you be like, Hey, youknow, you really shouldn't do that.
Like, oh, I got it.
Don't worry about it.
Like, all right.
And then once they make the mistake,then they'll be like, all right,
I'll listen to you this time.
Simon (40:43):
I think most of my life I've believed that the one sure
way to understand that falling outof the tree hurts is by letting,
is by climbing the tree, right?
Like that's
like, oh, they're gonna fall, Yelp.
They sure are.
Yep.
And, and they're gonnaunderstand that that shit hurts.
mix (41:04):
Mm-hmm.
Simon (41:05):
And they might think twice about climbing the tree or they'll just climb
up saying, oh, I'm not gonna fall.
And guess what?
They're probably gonna fall again.
Nio (41:13):
I won't fall this time.
Simon (41:17):
Oh, 'cause no.
Yeah, no, it's, uh, that's,that's human behavior.
And I, and I get that, like that,that's just sort of built in and wired
and, um, I like to, I like to tellmy wife that, that men are idiots
anyway, so, you know, don't worry.
Um, we're gonna do thestupid shit no matter what.
Um, that's, it goes not.
(41:38):
I'm sure it is.
Yeah, I'm sure it is.
Yeah.
Well, we make our women
Nio (41:43):
make their mistakes differently, but we still make them.
Simon (41:46):
Yeah.
I, I think that men just hahave a, a hardwire to like
just do it bigger and more out.
Out in the open.
Like I, I feel like we we're, we're,we were taught as children to like,
take the dirt bike and run off the rampreally fast and just see what happens.
Nio (42:06):
Well, if you think about it, it's kind of an evolutionary advantage.
I mean, if you were constantly afraidto do the thing, I, we probably
wouldn't survive as a species.
I mean, if you were needed tosay, say cross the river, and
if everybody was like, Hmm,that's probably not a good idea.
'cause it's really dangerous.
You need that one person tobe like, oh, we got this.
Don't worry.
We're gonna figure it out.
And if that first person doesn't make it,then the second person will be like, all
(42:27):
right, well we saw that first guy didn'tdo it very well, so let's try it this way.
Yeah, let's
Simon (42:31):
try it different way.
Nio (42:32):
Kind of an evolutionary advantage that men are more
willing to take the risk.
We also have people who are willingto stand back and go, all right,
let's, let's watch these guys.
Try it first and then we'll see what Life
Simon (42:43):
Lessons by Darwin.
Is that what you're
Nio (42:45):
describing to me?
Essentially?
Simon (42:49):
Oh, I want a children's book called Life Lessons by Darwin.
Nio (42:53):
I think you should write it and make it like about chefs.
That would be amazing.
Simon (42:58):
The Chef's Guide to Darwinism.
Nio (43:00):
Yes.
Simon (43:02):
Okay.
I, I think you got me conf.
Con, I think you got me convinced.
I think I might have to write that.
I'll,
Nio (43:07):
I'll be the first one in line.
Simon (43:09):
Awesome.
You might be the only onein line, but that's okay.
Nio (43:12):
No, I think a lot of people would be interested in a book like that.
Simon (43:16):
Darwinism for Dummies.
Nio (43:18):
Yes.
mix (43:19):
Chef
Nio (43:19):
Edition.
Simon (43:23):
Oh my goodness.
All right.
We've covered some territory.
From the fryer to senior living, to mentalhealth, to Darwinistic life lessons.
Goodness gracious.
All right.
In the show notes, I'm gonna makesure that we can find you, uh,
(43:44):
so that people can connect andcheck out what you have to offer.
Um, thank you so much for joining me.
I, I really do appreciate it.
Nio (43:54):
I'm so honored to be with you.
Thank you for the invitation.
It was so much fun.
I love reading all your stuff on LinkedIn.
I, I thank you so grateful to havea voice like yours in our space,
because we need more of them.
We need more strong voices to say, Hey,the way we're doing it doesn't work.
Let's try something new.
Simon (44:10):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, can't just be Darwin.
It's, I mean, I think that,I guess the last is why we're
losing so many chefs, right?
The funny thing for me is that.
When chefs start to like focus, managetheir time a little bit better, they
(44:31):
manage themselves a little bit betterand then lead a little bit better.
All those things feel like they should.
They're just sort of like incidental.
But the reality is it's a business.
And when all those things start to click,the business starts to make more money.
And the first couple times I startedto see that I went, wait a minute.
(44:53):
Why?
I think I have to talk about thisin a different way because it's
not, for me, it is mental health,like that's super important.
But at the end of the day,like for me, I'm a businessman.
I wanna help people makemore money, whether it's my
business or their business.
And doing all of those things thattake care of us will, will be the
(45:16):
byproduct, will be potentially more.
More revenue, moreprofit, all those things.
Nio (45:24):
SOPs for mental health,
Simon (45:26):
SOPs for mental health will make you more money.
Nio (45:28):
Exactly.
Simon (45:29):
Subliminal.
That's what we need to do.
We need to create thesubliminal Darwinistic handbook.
Got it.
Um, once again, thank you so muchfor playing in my little sandbox
that I call culinary mechanic.
And all you out there, Iwill catch you next time.
You've been listeningto Culinary Mechanic.
This show exists to help you leadwith more clarity, build systems
(45:51):
that actually work and create akitchen culture worth showing up for.
If this episode helped you moveeven one step in that direction, do
me a favor, leave a quick review.
It helps more chefs and operators stop thechaos and start leading with intention.
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