November 11, 2021 • 43 mins
Mark Shapiro, President and CEO at the Toronto Blue Jays talks about how the Blue Jays came up with their values, how to deal with star performers who have a negative impact on culture, and why it’s important to align the person we are with the leader we are.
In today's episode, you'll learn:
- How the Blue Jays came up with their values and who was part of that process
- How to deal with star performers who have a negative impact on culture
- How to create a framework to make great decisions
- Why it’s important to align the person you are with the leader you are
Visit www.kizo.ca/podcast to get extra resources or join our mailing list.
Our guest, Mark Shapiro is the President and CEO at the Toronto Blue Jays. Widely considered one of MLB’s top executives, Mark has been named Executive of the year multiple times. He spent 24 seasons in Cleveland, where he quickly moved up the ranks, and has been with the Blue Jays since 2015 and recently re-signed another 5 year contract extension. Mark and I met and talked at a sports conference in Toronto in 2018.
Connect with Mark on Twitter.
Cultivate your Culture is a show that decodes how leaders can create environments where their teams do their best work and flourish. Our guests are pioneers in team dynamics and culture from the worlds of business, military and sport. Hear them share simple, straightforward techniques that you could use with your team to set up, evolve and measure culture.
The host, Zoran Stojkovic helps people build habits and behaviors that unleash their inner greatness so that they can contribute positively to the world. Through his company, Kizo, he equips organizations and people with culture and mindset tools to reach full engagement through powerful workshops, memorable keynotes, and transformative individual consultations.
Cultivate Your Culture is produced by Kizo, a leadership coaching organization helping teams to get the results they want so that they can positively impact the world. To learn more about the services Kizo can provide for your team, please check out our website at kizo.ca/about.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Zoran Stojkovic (00:03):
Hey, what's going on and welcome to
cultivate your culture. Thisshow, this podcast is where we
decode how leaders can createenvironments where their teams
do their best work and flourish.
Our guests are pioneers in teamdynamics and culture from the
worlds of business, military andsport. Hear them shares simple,
(00:23):
straightforward techniques thatyou could use with your team to
set up, evolve and measureculture. With over 92,000 hours
spent working, let's focus onthe relationships and the
results will follow. I'm yourhost, Zoran Stojkovic. And I
help people build habits andbehaviors that unleash their
inner greatness so that they cancontribute positively to the
world. Now, let's get intotoday's episode.
Mark Shapiro (00:51):
Our thoughts are always Hey, what if we get
50 100 200 250 People all, youknow performing all accountable
of thinking about how to getbetter? You know, how what could
that mean to us as anorganization and we I think we
started that crossed a tippingpoint that you know what it
feels like to work in the BlueJays IT organization and to be
(01:12):
here. And like I said, we'regonna keep executing on that
keep believing and doubling downon those values, and I think the
championships will follow.
Zoran Stojkovic (01:20):
That's Mark Shapiro, President and CEO at
the Toronto Blue Jays, widelyconsidered one of Major League
Baseball's top executives, Markhas been named Executive of the
Year, multiple times, he spent24 seasons in Cleveland, where
he quickly moved up the ranksand has been with the Blue Jays
since 2015. And recentlyresigned another five year
contract extension, Mark and Imet and talked at a sports
(01:43):
conference in Toronto in 2018.
Today, we're going to hear fromMark on how the Blue Jays came
up with their values and who waspart of that process, how they
deal with star performers whohave a negative impact on
culture, and why it's importantto align the person we are with
the leader we are something Inoticed in this episode is how
clearly mark communicated hispersonal values and how much
overlap there was between thosevalues, and the values of the
(02:05):
Blue Jays. It's important forleaders to know who they are,
and what they value to leadeffectively. And that's why I'm
so excited for you guys to hearfrom Mark. And that's coming up
next. Thank you for taking timeto talk about culture. It's, as
far as I know, that's a topicthat's that you're passionate
about. And that you find prettyimportant.
Mark Shapiro (02:29):
There's that famous quote from James Drucker
like your culture beats strategyevery day I I kind of say, I
don't believe that I thinkculture is our strategy. So I, I
view culture to be, you know,the biggest scalable competitive
advantage that we've got. So anarea that we spend a lot of time
and energy thinking about.
Zoran Stojkovic (02:48):
Okay, so you saying it's a scalable
competitive advantage? And I'veheard that before from other
guests as well. Why do you saythat?
Mark Shapiro (02:55):
Well, I guess the best thing I can do is kind of
give you an example, right? Youknow, people these days spend so
many energy, so much energy, andresources, you know, large,
largely financial resources,thinking about opportunities to
beat their competitors. Soanalytics is an area that's easy
to think about, but so are a lotof the performance areas mental
(03:17):
performance, which areobviously, you know, working in
unfamiliar with nutrition,hydrations, you know, sleep, you
know, all kinds of little thingsthat kind of give you an
advantage. But I think thereality is that unless your
organization is truly openminded, you know, humble,
thoughtful, collaborative, allthe things that to me encompass,
(03:39):
you know, pieces of what defineculture, these for us, none of
those resources, either either,they're not not going to be
matter, or they're not going toimpact, you know, to the extent
they largely can impact. So forinstance, if you truly have
empowerment, collaboration, asyou know, pieces, and are
(04:00):
linchpins to your culture, andthey're their values that you
live up to on a daily basis,then people are going to act in
a way and as well as highstandards and expectations. And
people are going to act in a waythat you know, as if they're
accountable for success, andthey're going to take that
ownership, they're going to takethat accountability, they're
(04:21):
going to work with others,they're going to feel empowered,
if you're in a moral hierarchy,oh, close minded organization
that's resistant to change, thenpeople still may execute and
care about doing a good jobwithin the constraints of their
job description. But they'recertainly not going to look at
you know, innovating, pushingthe envelope, and you're not
(04:42):
going to have you know, you'regoing to have maybe 50 people
doing that at the leadershiplevel instead of 500 people
doing it at every level of theorganization. So I'm of the
belief that for us to overcomehuge resource gaps from our
biggest competitors, which wecertainly have, you know, it
takes every single personthinking that their works
meaningful, important, and thatthey feel empowered to make a
(05:04):
difference, make a differencemake an impact. And those are,
you know, that feeling thatbelief is part of culture.
Zoran Stojkovic (05:12):
So that's a lot of reasons why culture is a
competitive advantage. And atthe Blue Jays, you guys have a
clear cultures so collaborative,collaborate, learn, empower,
achieve, and respect, how andwhen did the Blue Jays come up
with those five words?
Mark Shapiro (05:28):
Well, I think it's one of those exercises that
whenever, you know, people moveorganizations and new leadership
comes into place new new andexisting leaders get together
and say, you know, we, we haveto think about what links us you
know, and you know, when I, whenI think about culture, I think
about the fact that, you know,and we'll, we'll simplify it for
(05:50):
right now and just talk aboutthe baseball operations side of
things, because that's the areamost that most people are
interested in, but it certainlypertains to the business side as
well. But within baseballoperations, we've got distinct
roles and distinctresponsibilities. And you can
break those down to you know,departments like international
scouting, you know, decisionsciences, performance areas, but
(06:13):
in reality, everyone, you know,in baseball operations is kind
of falls under four, you know,basic areas, identify talent,
acquire talent, develop talent,because we've got an extensive
development system in baseball.
And then building when the majorleague level, it's just the tip
of the spear, it's the onlything that people think about
(06:34):
and they think about a majorleague team, but within it,
you've got scouting that are outthere, in the amateur
international professionallevel, identifying talent,
you've got, you know, peoplethat are in analytics that are
in, you know, that are managingdata that are programmers
building out systems andthinking about how to best build
models and help us framedecisions. You've got people who
(06:56):
are focused on development, orhelping players maximize their
potential bridge, the gapbetween where their performance
is and where their potentiallies, mentally, physically, and
fundamentally across yourholistic all three areas. And
then you've got people thinkingabout, you know, how do you take
that town and build a majorleague team and win at the major
league level, and all the thingsthat go into that, if you don't
(07:18):
consciously define your values,then nothing connects, you
people still may do a good job,but you're not connecting the
same types of players you'reidentifying may not be the same
types of players that you'reultimately acquiring may not be
the kinds of players you'reultimately using to build your
major league team, there'snothing that kind of joins
(07:38):
people together and helps themfeel part of something. When we
sat down after getting here wasit was a, you know, a
combination of people that havebeen here for a long period of
time. And then some people likeraw sack into myself, and Angus
Mugford just came here, youknow, and we were trying to
develop common ground, andstill, you know, what was going
(08:00):
to link, you know, those areasgoing forward. And we, I mean,
the funny story is, we not justkeep we had, we didn't just come
up with the values, the clearvalues, collaborate, learn
power, achieve and respect. Wealso came up with a mission, you
know, like every organizationdoes, and it was long drawn out
kind of complex, and but reallygood, really good. And I
(08:23):
remember calling Ross Atkinsafter the retreat and saying,
What are you you know, who's theGM here and saying, What do you
How did you feel about it? Whatdo you think about the mission,
he goes, it's really good man.
But it goes, I wish we couldjust just, I wish it could just
be get better every day. And Isat there for a minute thinking
about and I was like, it can, itcan be get better, that's
(08:44):
beautiful. So the our missionbecame get better every day to
bring world championships toCanada, to Canada. That's it,
you know, and our values becameclear values. So it's two
pieces, you know, the mission isjust, we want to get better
every day, which means it's afancy way of saying we're a
learning culture. We're alearning organization, you know,
that we're focused on perpetualimprovement. You know, we're
(09:05):
humble, open and learning everysingle day that that opportunity
that exists, every single personhere is charged with making some
incremental improvement on adaily basis. And if we're doing
that, if the player is universalplayers are doing that, you
know, the physios are doing thatstrength coaches are doing that
hitting coaches doing that theintern is doing that the analyst
(09:28):
is doing that that video coachesdo if all those people are doing
that they're different subjectmatter expertise and advantages
and perspectives. Then we again,we're going to be a machine and
we're going to roll and we'regoing to, you know, overcome a
lot of challenges and be prettyexceptional at what we do. You
guys
Zoran Stojkovic (09:45):
got together when you got to the Blue Jays in
2015. And it was you Angus and acouple of others. And you want
to retreat and you just sat downand you brainstormed a bunch of
values?
Mark Shapiro (09:54):
Well, it was thinking about like what defines
us what connects us whatdifferentiates Working for the
Toronto Blue Jays as opposed toworking for the Los Angeles
Angels, you know, whatdifferentiates working for the
Toronto Blue Jays as opposed toworking for Microsoft, you know,
like, there has to be somethingthat that defines and the links
(10:15):
and differentiates what it meansto work here something that we
can think about. And again, youknow, something that we could
then take into hiring somethingthat we could then take into how
we evaluate something to holdeach other accountable, you
know, and mostly something thatwe believe deeply and just could
live on a daily basis, because Ithink all those processes, you
(10:37):
know, the way we evaluatepeople, the way we, you know,
hiring may be a little bitdifferent. But once we hire
Well, you know, everything elseshould just be kind of checking
things that we already know aregoing to be in place if we hire
really well, because, but weneed that roadmap, we need that
roadmap that says, These are thethings that we hold as being
(10:58):
sacred for us, these are thethings that are going to guide,
you know, the people that I wantto work with, who I want to work
next to, you know, what has towhat's important to the people
that want to wake up and worknext to every day.
Zoran Stojkovic (11:09):
So you start with the values, and then you
use that to figure out who youwant to hire and who you
actually let in the door becausethat I believe that has a big
impact on culture. Because one,there's a saying out there, it's
better to have 1000 enemiesoutside of your tent than one
inside the tent. Yeah, right.
Right. So one, one rotten applecan really mess things up.
Mark Shapiro (11:32):
Not only that, like an oversimplification, but
so true. I mean, I think thearea that people spend,
shortchange, that is so crucialto success is hiring, you know,
and I don't mean, when I sayhiring, you can think of that in
sports from a front officeexecutive, or drafting or
trading or signing a free agent.
But, you know, if we spent moretime thinking about the talent
(11:57):
we're bringing in, everythingelse really takes care of
itself, right. Because if youhire really well, and the values
are part of your hiring, or theculture is part of your hiring,
then those people alreadyunderstand when they come on
board, you know, and you'realready aligned coming on board,
you don't have to worry aboutalignment, those that's part of
the process. If you if you hirereally well, then you're going
(12:20):
to have a deep base of talent.
So succession planning, whetherit's, you know, balancing a
roster at the major leaguelevel, or recognizing that some
executives might leave and youneed other executives coming
behind them. But successionplanning will be built in if you
hire really well. So theefficiency created by hiring
(12:40):
well becomes a competitiveadvantage, we've got no
alignment from day one, whenpeople come in the door, there,
the expectation is we hire forpeople to make us better not to
earn their stripes and kind ofdo through some hierarchy of
chain of command and wait fortheir time, we want people to
come in the door withcomplementary skill sets and
(13:01):
make us better the day they gethere, right. And then we know
that they're already gonna bealigned, because the values
alignment was part of theselection process and part of
the hiring process. And we'vegot really high standards and
expectations, so and that's theachieved piece of the value. So
we've got a talent pipelinecoming up. So whether we've got
(13:23):
players leave, viewing throughfree agency, or you know, our
price, everything else we'retrying to do, or we've got front
office that decide for eitherpersonal or professional reasons
to go to another team, we've gottalent coming through, and we've
got a smooth transition.
Zoran Stojkovic (13:37):
So then is there how do you measure
alignment of actions to values,though? I mean, if somebody how
do you measure empowerment? Howdo you measure whether
somebody's learning in theirposition?
Mark Shapiro (13:47):
Well, if we have to measure it, then we're
already off course. You know, Ithink that, you know, we spend
the bulk of our time we do we domeasure it through an evaluation
process, but we spend the bulkof our time trying to get it
right at the outset, not worriedabout correcting it along the
way. Yes, we will hold eachother accountable to those
(14:08):
values, because they are they'rea standard part of our language
every day. They're a standardpart of how we evaluate success
or failure. And they're, they'rea standard part of how we, you
know, provide evaluations that,you know, along the way and at
the end of each year, but Iwould say to you that those
things are just formalities inmy mind. They're bureaucratic,
(14:28):
they're bureaucraticcheckpoints, that if we have to
check those things and have topull back and then we probably
did a bad job somewhere else, orwe started to disproportionately
place an emphasis on resultsinstead of you know, the process
along the way. So, you know, wehold ourselves back by spending
so much time and energy andtalking so much about our
(14:50):
values, through hiring processthrough our year. We're holding
ourselves accountable becausepeople you know, as leaders,
we're talking about those thingsand trying to live Have those
values every day?
Zoran Stojkovic (15:01):
Oh, I love that you're saying if you're
measuring it, you're kind of toolate and you have bigger
problems and measuring thosethings.
Mark Shapiro (15:07):
Yeah, I think if you're like having to safeguard
or, you know, kind of enforcethe values, then you might want
to go back and look at how wellyou did, you know, kind of
picking people and selectingpeople and players that already
believe in and, you know, livethose values as part of their
personal philosophy.
Zoran Stojkovic (15:27):
So then when it comes to selection, how do you
make sure those coming in,actually live those values to to
a certain standard that theorganization wants,
Mark Shapiro (15:38):
through an ever evolving interview process
through exercises and through aan examination of the life
they've lived. So, you know,whether it's questionnaires and
essays they write, whether it's,you know, real world case
studies, you know, that we'reproviding them that kind of
solve and sell or whether it's,you know, looking at how they've
(15:58):
worked in the past, who they'veworked with, who they work for,
who's worked for them, and doinga deep dive into kind of, you
know, their background, we'relooking for people that want to
be part of not just a majorleague baseball team, but want
to be part of a clearer culture,
Zoran Stojkovic (16:13):
where you're saying you don't just look at
player performance and resultsand stats, you look at more than
that.
Mark Shapiro (16:18):
Absolutely, we do, we look at whether they can be
productive, you know, part ofour team, a good teammate, you
know, and all the things that goin again, the values for our
players are a little bitdifferent than collaborate,
learn and power, achievingrespect, but they are not that
far. Apart from that there aremany crossovers, they're the
values that we hold for ourfront office, business and
(16:39):
baseball, through ourperformance staffs or our
coaching staffs, all of the nonplayers are the clear values.
Interesting, we do we place anemphasis on character,
perseverance, long term, youknow, growth and development and
and the humble open, you know,learning piece that that is
(17:00):
relevant for our players as itis for for, you know, front
office,
Zoran Stojkovic (17:03):
right, so this this 1% improvements every day,
this this Kaizen mindset is oneof the things that I'm hearing
you mentioned quite often, isthat something that's personally
important to you, is thatsomething? How do you how do you
live that? I mean, how do you dothat every day?
Mark Shapiro (17:22):
It's something that as I kind of, as you, you
seek to evolve and understand,you know, when you're happy,
fulfill that piece of content,who you with, and what are you
doing, you know, and as Istarted to think about those
things, you know, it's alwaysaround other people who are
curious, it's around otherpeople who are open minded. It's
(17:46):
around other people who, youknow, are focused on learning
and growing, and developing andgetting better. And, you know,
you won't, you'll missopportunities to do that, if
you're not open minded, becauseit's not necessarily going to
come with someone that has abigger title, it's not going to
necessarily going to come fromsomeone who, you know, has, you
(18:09):
know, status, it could come fromanyone, you know, and I think
that walking through whether youcall it the beginner's mindset,
or whether you just, you know,recognize that, as part of your
routine, you're going to readsomething every day, you're
gonna enter into every meeting,and every, your group you speak
to, with the thought thatthere's an opportunity here for
(18:31):
me to learn, if I come in withan open mind, if I come in so
sure of myself. So set in myways, and so confident in what
I'm doing, there's a very goodchance, I'm not going to learn,
I'm not going to get any better.
You know, so my goal is not totell you how much I know, my
goal is to figure out what youknow, and see what you know, I
can learn from you.
Zoran Stojkovic (18:54):
That's a mindset that I click with, for
sure of going into everyinteraction with, hey, every
conversation can can enrich myinner world and, and we it's
this give and take, I think, andDoc Rivers talks about using it
and this Ubuntu and there's thismindset of you give to me and I
(19:17):
give to you, and this exchangehappens, and it's not about only
taking taking taking or onlygiving, giving giving.
Mark Shapiro (19:23):
Yeah, I've heard that and I love that. And I
think, you know, it's funnywisdom, a lot of times to me is
like passing on the, you know,the giving someone else the
benefit of your past challengesand your past struggles. So a
lot of what I have to offer isnot like some sort of, you know,
great insight into success.
It's, hey, here's the challengesI've had, and here's what here's
(19:45):
the miscues and missteps I'vetaken and hopefully we all can
learn from those and get betterinstead of just me, you know,
Zoran Stojkovic (19:53):
interesting. So if I can ask on that, then what
have you What have you done overthe past five years together?
Create a high standard and thiscohesive culture. At the Blue
Jays, you've talked aboutrecruiting practices and hiring
practices. I wonder if you couldspeak to some other aspects? And
then what have been some of thetop blockers or obstacles for
you in creating that shift inthe organization? When you came
(20:16):
in, in November? 2015?
Mark Shapiro (20:18):
Let's start with the second part of the question.
You know, and I think that thebiggest challenge when you come
into transforming culture orjust implementing changes in
general, you know, some of themare situational, right, just
circumstantial, they're just forthe moment. So the biggest
challenge we came in was justthat there was a lot of, you
know, very recent success. Sopeople felt in people that were
(20:42):
resistant to change, that werenot prone to being open minded,
and thinking about how thingscan be better had were
emboldened to be resistant tochange based on short term
success. So that that, to me,though, is just a situational,
circumstantial challenge. Moresystemic, of every place, not
the Blue Jays is that, you know,most human beings are
(21:06):
comfortable with change, mosthuman beings want to feel
certain of, you know, theterrain around them, even if
that means that they don't wantto be accountable, or they don't
want any huge level ofresponsibility, because it's
comfortable to just perform theright responsibilities within
this small box, I'm going tojust stay in my box, getting out
(21:27):
of that, you know, collaboratingor, you know, offering an
opinion in an area outside of myown expertise, puts me makes me
vulnerable, puts me out there.
So I would say that, you know,the biggest challenge coming in
was the short term success that,and just the inherent reality
that until people feel some sortof safety, and trust and
(21:49):
respect, they're going to beresistant to being open minded
and resistance changing. Soyou've got the best ways to deal
with that, or, you know, to, toearn respect, to earn trust, to
not expect that it's given toyou based on title based on
past, you know, his three yearperformance, and that you've got
(22:10):
to demonstrate and create thatsafe environment for people so
they feel comfortable. Otheropportunities for doing that are
as simple as how you runmeetings, to basically how you
make decisions, that's the bestexample I can give you, you
know, if a decision is made byone person, and everybody in an
(22:31):
organization, and I've seen thisand saw this here, when I got
here, it most people in anorganization are waiting for one
person in the chain of commandto make a decision, that's going
to be a reflection of thevalues, you know, and you're
inherently saying that person'sa better decision maker, for
some reasons, you know, which,by the way, is not friggin true.
(22:53):
You know, there are no greatdecision makers, like as much as
we anecdotally think someone isprone to making great decisions,
I am not that guy, I am not thatperson. And I've yet to meet the
woman or man, that's just abetter decision maker. I've met
elite leaders that lead best inclass decision making processes,
(23:15):
which means they which meanthey're open minded enough to
bring in all the bestinformation from all the best
people. And then they create thebest framework for how to make
decisions. So to me the best,the best way to demonstrate
those values, besides the hiringprocess, which is the single
most important way, is to framedecision making processes to
(23:36):
frame meetings as opportunitiesto kind of demonstrate that this
is what we're doing, we arecollaborating, we are empowering
certain people that, you know,that might not be, you know,
entitled, the highest to come upwith ideas to propose those
ideas, you know, to explain, weare expecting high standards,
you know, that would be reallyimportant, you know, for us, and
(23:59):
we're demonstrating that levelof respect and everything we do.
Zoran Stojkovic (24:04):
The, you're saying, the ideal time to make
tweaks and changes, because whenyou're on top of your game, and
not actually when when you'relosing?
Mark Shapiro (24:13):
No, I mean, I think it's got to be constant.
You know, I was talking moreabout the transition coming in,
you know, okay, but I think youdon't sit back and say, We're
not going to live our valuestoday, changes would be the
wrong, you know, nomenclature orjust the wrong semantics. It's
more just growth. It's morelearning. It's developing, it's
evolving, you know, I mean, it'slistening because as some way
(24:35):
someone has been doing it mightbe, you know, already better
than anything we've considered.
But the one place where I'm, youknow, where I'm not flexible,
and I'm not open is whensomeone's not open minded, and
they're not humble, and theythink that they just know better
than everyone else. And thatthat, to me, would be a
violation of the culture we'retrying to build here and it
(24:56):
would be very tough for us. andneed to work with that person
long term.
Zoran Stojkovic (25:02):
But what if that safety, trust and respect
you're missing for that person,for whatever reason,
Mark Shapiro (25:07):
you do the best you can to, to openly call out
that and talk about that and tryto develop that. But ultimately,
you know, there are going to bepeople who are not the right fit
for for all organizations,either both ways. And so you and
you have to make changes, andthat's the case.
Zoran Stojkovic (25:24):
So this last season, the Blue Jays had 91
wins, which is one win behindthe Red Sox and the Yankees. So
with that, that goes to show isit was a tight race, but the
importance of each and everygame, and you're talking about
this continuous evolution andchange, how good of a measure is
winning of connected andcohesive culture? Actually?
Mark Shapiro (25:48):
Well, I think, again, culture is part of
process. And if you execute onprocess, over and over again,
repeatedly, the outcomes willstart to align with process more
often than not, there always arevariables and randomness, that
impact you know, the team thatwon the World Series, one, three
less games and asked for lessgames in the Red Sox, and
(26:09):
Yankees. So, you know, I guesswhat I'd say is just continue to
execute over and over and overagain. And that likelihood of
winning a World Series or aworld championship are going to
be pretty good over time. Butthe outcomes do reflect, you
know, the process and the valuesand how you go about things. But
(26:30):
but on a short term on a short,you know, on a small set of data
on a small, you know, number ofgames on one season, and
independently. You are you'reyou may end up with an outlier.
So you got to stay committed,and you've got to continue to
evaluate and assess. And again,like, whether it's 91, or 95,
(26:51):
wins, or want to get better nomatter what. Sometimes getting
better might mean just stayingthe same number of wins in order
to get in order. You know, inorder to do that you have to get
better.
Zoran Stojkovic (27:01):
Because in your interview on sports net, you
mentioned that you want toimprove on that number of 91
wins next season. Yeah,
Mark Shapiro (27:08):
well, we need to win one or two more games to be
sure we're going to get into theplayoffs 91, I think you know,
as about a 90% chance, or 91 isa pretty good chance of getting
in. So we just we were that teamthat didn't get in with 91 wins,
which is tough. But hey, that'sit is what it is like we just
doesn't mean we need to be towhine about that or be
(27:30):
disappointed. Nobody cares. Justfind a way to keep getting
better and keep improving.
Zoran Stojkovic (27:36):
So Mark, how accurately Do you feel Reid
diamond portrayed you in the2011 film Moneyball starring
Brad Pitt and Jonah Hill
Mark Shapiro (27:44):
have Moneyball question I always I wish I wish
I had known when I agreed to letthem use my, my name in that
movie that I would be answeringquestions all these years later.
You know, listen, read diamond,they found a guy that they could
dress up to kind of look alittle bit like me, probably not
(28:04):
good for him there. But not badfor me. But in reality, it was
pretty the scene was the scenesI was in were pretty fictitional
I wasn't even GM yet. When thosethings happen. I was assistant
GM. You know, while I know Billywell, and he's a friend, he was
never in my office in Cleveland.
You know, I recommended the guythat that Jonah Hill played Paul
(28:25):
de Pedesta, you know, obviouslydidn't use his name. It wasn't a
situation where he was stolenfrom us. And we were doing a lot
of those things, too. I'll be atthe as you know, little behind
us. They they kind of portrayCleveland as a big market, and
which is kind of humorous. Whilewe did function that way for a
little bit in the mid 90s. To dosome unusual circumstances. You
(28:46):
know, we were for the entiretime I was GM. There. We were a
very small market team. And wewere doing differently, but
thinking about things the sameway as the A's, which are, you
know, how do we mind value inthe marketplace? How do we, you
know, find competitive advantageovercome huge resource gaps?
Zoran Stojkovic (29:08):
For sure. And years ago, when I watched the
movie, I figured that thosemovies have to make scenes
entertaining, and they don'tknow exactly the dialogue that
happened. And I know that theyput
Mark Shapiro (29:22):
the general themes are still valid and important,
but it actually was good for meto, to experience that. Because
when they say based upon a truestory, you recognize Well, in
order to make four to fiveyears, in the 90 minutes or 100
minutes, you're going to need totake a lot of liberties with the
actual story. I think that'swhat they have to do and they
make movies so there it shouldsay very loosely based upon a
(29:44):
true story.
Zoran Stojkovic (29:47):
Yeah, so it's, it's an entertaining movie. I
think what I got out of it wasthe importance of analytics. And
is that
Mark Shapiro (29:55):
the absolutely the importance of data driven or
informed decision making? Youknow, are is is important. I
think, as I, as I reflect onthat now, it's more
understanding bias, you know,which is something that we as a
game did not do well fordecades. And so when you thought
(30:18):
about the ways that we madedecisions, you know, it was
prone to so many differentbiases, recency bias, contextual
bias. recency bias is obviouslya huge one, like, who won the
World Series? How do they do it,that's the way we need to build
our team or, you know, theloudest voice in the room or
whatever it was, like we wereprone to, you know, and then
(30:41):
recognizing that model baseddecision making, which is, you
know, a frame framework for howwe make decisions based on the
history of similar decisionsthat have been made, some of
which would involve data andanalytics, but some of which may
still be subjective opinion, butput into a framework where we're
looking at it from a modelsperspective, we're going to end
(31:02):
up with a better decision at thecook, because ultimately, we're
going to regress out the biasthat you know, could infect the
decision making process,
Zoran Stojkovic (31:11):
right. And interviews are, have typically
been found to not be a greatpredictor of performance job
performance. Actually,absolutely.
Mark Shapiro (31:20):
If you're facing if you're, if you think you can
hire Well, based just on anhour, it's for the exact same
reasons that individuals aren'tgreat decision makers want
individuals not a betterdecision maker than any other,
right? Because you're basingthat on such a, you know, I've
got a good gut feel on people Ican I have a good a good gut on
her, I can, like read her betterthan anyone else. Campbell, I
(31:42):
know, you can't, you know, youactually cannot, you know, but
if you go through a rigorous,you know, multi leveled, you
know, hiring process thatinvolves, you know, a lot of
different people andperspectives involved in plan
force ranking, you know, and,you know, writing samples and,
you know, other exercises thatactually demonstrate, you know,
(32:05):
how someone works as well as360, you deep dive into their
work history, you got a muchbetter chance to make a good
hire than just sitting with themfor an hour.
Zoran Stojkovic (32:15):
You do and hiring, onboarding and turnover
actually quite expensiveprocesses for organizations to
take quite a lot of timeactually bring bring somebody up
to speed to find the rightperson? Yeah, whether somebody
is going through headhuntersrecruiters, or whatever the
situation is. So picking theright people is is really, in
(32:37):
one of your interviews, youtalk, you said something that
really stuck with me. You talkabout aligning the leader you
are with the man that you are,and that's something that your
father passed down to you? Howcan leaders do a check to see
how aligned these two are forthem?
Mark Shapiro (32:57):
Yeah, I think it comes down to, you know, a level
of awareness, you know, that youas you start to act and think
about, you know, am I different?
Am I acting differently, youknow, when I'm at home, as a
father, as a partner, as abrother, as a son, than I am
when I walk in a building, andI'm supposedly a leader, right?
(33:19):
I shouldn't be any different, Ishould be the same person, the
same human being, when you startto believe the hype of a title,
a CEO title, oh, today I'm actputting my CEO cable I'm acting
as a CEO, or a GM or whateverrole you've got, you're going to
start to believe that you'respecial in some way. And again,
(33:40):
it's gonna result in you know,getting back to you not being as
open minded, not, you know,being as compassionate,
empathetic, vulnerable, all thethings that, you know, will, you
know, surely lead you to be abetter leader over a period of
time and make better decisionsand, and how maximize the talent
within an organization. So, Ithink when I think about life's
(34:03):
most important roles, certainlybeing a father is the one that I
view to be most important. Sowhy would I want to be good at
that, or, you know, any lessonsthat are any better at that,
than I am as a leader, I justview those to be the same, I
need to lead the same way that Iparents need the same way that
I, you know, partner Lee, thesame way that I'm a friend, you
(34:24):
know, and I just don't do thatto be any different. And so I
hoped that I keep people near mein my life that you know, feel
free to call me out they seethat I'm getting off course but
I'm also you also never far fromrealizing that you know, the
self importance doesn't meananything, everything's pretty
temporary. It can all go awaypretty quickly. So the one thing
(34:47):
that I want to be certain of is,you know, the relationships
because those Outlast everythingelse.
Zoran Stojkovic (34:54):
They do. So what I'm hearing is having those
people around you that can thatno you are deep down as a
person. And for them to have thefreedom and the psychological
safety to say, Hey, you're beenoff course for a couple days.
And here's what you're doinghere is how it's affecting those
around you.
Mark Shapiro (35:14):
And for me to be aware enough that when I start
to feel those things, or thinkthose things, whoa, whoa, whoa,
that's not good. You're not anybetter. Don't expect to be
treated any differently thananyone else. And, you know, make
sure that you're holdingyourself to the same standards
you're holding other people to.
Zoran Stojkovic (35:32):
I do have each episode I do a listener
question. Okay, this one comesfrom Tom Jones, who's a former
Canadian National Teamvolleyball player. So Tom asked,
when you have a star performer,who's a either staff or, or
player, office staff playerdoesn't matter, who's having a
negative impact? How do you workwith them on changing that?
Mark Shapiro (35:54):
It's not easy, you know, again, I'd say, try to get
it right up front, rather thantry to correct it along the way.
So be good at before you draftedsign or traded for that player,
you already recognize some ofthat is going to be dependent
upon how far advanced yourculture is already. Because if
it's if it's if it's advancedenough than peer to peer player
(36:16):
to player, they'll take care ofit themselves, which is where
you want to be, you want to beable to take the chance on a
player who might not perfectlyalign has the talent to help
make you a championship team,but might not perfectly aligned
with the culture, you can dothat, if you're far enough along
where your culture is clearlydefined, where people there feel
(36:37):
responsible and invested in it,and are willing to enforce it,
you know, themselves. If me orwe as leaders have to sit down
with someone and try to get themback on course. You know, again,
like, it's going to be tough,because we're dealing with
adults that are probably alreadyfully formed, we can help them
(36:58):
be more aware, you know, of whythat's important, we can openly
have the conversation that, youknow, our team's success is
dependent upon some adjustments,and you know, how that how
you're behaving and how it'simpacting others. But if it
says, that's something that'snot relevant or important, and
(37:18):
people feel like all thosethings, you know, should be
justified by talent, thenthey're probably not a good fit
for the culture. There's abalance between, you know,
talent and character, talents,just kind of a given. But
ultimately, if someone feelsthat their talent, you know,
justifies any behavior, even athow it's counterproductive to a
(37:41):
culture, then they're probablynot the right fit for us. And I
think those players or playersthat we either have chosen to
trade or to ultimately notresign here,
Zoran Stojkovic (37:50):
how would your answer change? If? How would you
deal with like a non big nameplayer, if they were having the
same negative impact on culture,
Mark Shapiro (37:57):
same way, it's just easier to make the change.
Zoran Stojkovic (38:00):
Thank you so much for coming on this. I've,
I've really enjoyed this. And Iknow, folks are going to get a
lot of value out of this. And Igot a lot out of it myself,
where can people connect withyou?
Mark Shapiro (38:14):
Well, I mean, I do, I, I'm not active, you know,
as far as putting stuff outthere, but I'm on Twitter every
day, it's I find, I find Twitterto be actually a, you know, in
the realm of social media, youknow, it's if you're selective
about the people you follow onwhat you're read, there's so
much incredible, incredibleinformation and so much, you
(38:36):
know, knowledge being shared onTwitter that you can direct mail
me right from my, you know, atMark Shapiro, right from my, you
know, Twitter, and I willoccasionally like, I like a lot
of things. So if you're watchingthem liking and you follow me
watch I'm liking or Ioccasionally will put stuff out
there too, sometimes just funstuff. And sometimes, you know,
you know, things I think arerelevant is for for other people
(38:58):
that are like minded in the waywe kind of think about learning
and, and growth and, and gettingbetter. So that's probably the
best way, you know, I willcertainly look there and always
respond to people as well.
Zoran Stojkovic (39:11):
Amazing. So Twitter, I'll put that in the
show notes. And fine, just thefinal question. Any parting
thoughts?
Mark Shapiro (39:17):
No, I mean, I think the, you know, the
opportunity to kind of reflectand think about, you know, how
essential culture is to both mepersonally and us as an
organization, you know, inensuring that we identify people
that to work and play here that,you know, share a similar set of
beliefs in the way we treatother people and the way we
(39:40):
focus on growth is not justimportant for you know, our
fulfillment and happiness butalso important for our
competitiveness. You know, we'retrying to overcome an outperform
objective expectations for thatto happen. You know, we need not
just 1520 people, which is kindof popular culture, you know,
focuses on individuals. But ourthoughts are always Hey, what if
(40:04):
we get 50 100 200 250 Peopleall, you know, performing all
accountable of thinking abouthow to get better, you know, how
what could that mean to us as anorganization and we I think we
started to cross the tippingpoint that you know what it
feels like to work in the BlueJays IT organization and to be
here. And like I said, we'regoing to keep executing on that
(40:26):
keep believing and doubling downon those values. And I think the
championships will follow, youknow, the those beliefs and
actions, you know, we've gotheavy lift, the heavy lifting of
transforming the culture isdone. You know, when I think
about the next five years, it'sperpetual growth, you know, it's
perpetual opportunities toimprove, it's thinking about
where the next opportunity togain incremental competitive
(40:49):
advantage lies. And, you know, Ithink paramount to us finding
where those competitiveadvantages are, are staying true
to the values of, you know,collaboration, learning and
powering, you know, achievingand respect. So, if we continue
to live, those, you know, willadvance the culture moving
forward, which means a lot ofnew people will come in and
(41:12):
continue to kind of push us tohigher levels in performance.
Zoran Stojkovic (41:18):
There's a ton of took away from the
conversation with Mark. But ifthere's one thing I want you to
take away, it's this before youlook for the next hire or
recruit, sit down with yourleadership group and revisit
your values, answer questions,such as what links us and what
differentiates working for thisteam, or organization. Once you
have the answers to thosequestions, it gives you a common
(41:40):
language, something you can usein evaluations, and something
you can use the hold each otheraccountable as colleagues, but
it also gives you something youcan deeply believe in. You can
then use those values to rethinkand reshape your hiring process
and enhance the human capitalbecause you're going to be
making better hiring decisions.
And human capital is the value.
(42:00):
Those who are part of your teambring to the table who you let
into your team has the biggestimpact on culture. Join us next
time for a conversation withTravis Thomas, leadership and
team development specialist atthe US Men's National Soccer
Team as we deep dive into howimprovisation and creativity can
build a high performanceculture.
(42:28):
Hey, thanks for listening tocultivate your culture. I hope
you enjoyed our deep dive intohow to level up the
relationships and environment tocultivate your team's culture.
If you enjoyed this episode,share it with someone in your
life, leave a rating andsubscribe visit
KI zero.ca/podcast to get extraresources and join our email
list. A huge shout out toteriyaki from earbuds for
(42:52):
producing the music for thisshow and to Kate love it and
Silvio Canalla parola forhelping produce and promote the
show. Cultivate your culturesproduced by Keizo a leadership
coaching organization helpingteams to get the results they
want so that they can positivelyimpact the world. To learn more
about the services Keizo canprovide for your team, please
check out our website at Kzero.ca/team See you again next
(43:14):
week.
Hey, what's going on and welcome to
cultivate your culture. Thisshow, this podcast is where we
decode how leaders can createenvironments where their teams
do their best work and flourish.
Our guests are pioneers in teamdynamics and culture from the
worlds of business, military andsport. Hear them shares simple,
(00:23):
straightforward techniques thatyou could use with your team to
set up, evolve and measureculture. With over 92,000 hours
spent working, let's focus onthe relationships and the
results will follow. I'm yourhost, Zoran Stojkovic. And I
help people build habits andbehaviors that unleash their
inner greatness so that they cancontribute positively to the
world. Now, let's get intotoday's episode.
Mark Shapiro (00:51):
Our thoughts are always Hey, what if we get
50 100 200 250 People all, youknow performing all accountable
of thinking about how to getbetter? You know, how what could
that mean to us as anorganization and we I think we
started that crossed a tippingpoint that you know what it
feels like to work in the BlueJays IT organization and to be
(01:12):
here. And like I said, we'regonna keep executing on that
keep believing and doubling downon those values, and I think the
championships will follow.
Zoran Stojkovic (01:20):
That's Mark Shapiro, President and CEO at
the Toronto Blue Jays, widelyconsidered one of Major League
Baseball's top executives, Markhas been named Executive of the
Year, multiple times, he spent24 seasons in Cleveland, where
he quickly moved up the ranksand has been with the Blue Jays
since 2015. And recentlyresigned another five year
contract extension, Mark and Imet and talked at a sports
(01:43):
conference in Toronto in 2018.
Today, we're going to hear fromMark on how the Blue Jays came
up with their values and who waspart of that process, how they
deal with star performers whohave a negative impact on
culture, and why it's importantto align the person we are with
the leader we are something Inoticed in this episode is how
clearly mark communicated hispersonal values and how much
overlap there was between thosevalues, and the values of the
(02:05):
Blue Jays. It's important forleaders to know who they are,
and what they value to leadeffectively. And that's why I'm
so excited for you guys to hearfrom Mark. And that's coming up
next. Thank you for taking timeto talk about culture. It's, as
far as I know, that's a topicthat's that you're passionate
about. And that you find prettyimportant.
Mark Shapiro (02:29):
There's that famous quote from James Drucker
like your culture beats strategyevery day I I kind of say, I
don't believe that I thinkculture is our strategy. So I, I
view culture to be, you know,the biggest scalable competitive
advantage that we've got. So anarea that we spend a lot of time
and energy thinking about.
Zoran Stojkovic (02:48):
Okay, so you saying it's a scalable
competitive advantage? And I'veheard that before from other
guests as well. Why do you saythat?
Mark Shapiro (02:55):
Well, I guess the best thing I can do is kind of
give you an example, right? Youknow, people these days spend so
many energy, so much energy, andresources, you know, large,
largely financial resources,thinking about opportunities to
beat their competitors. Soanalytics is an area that's easy
to think about, but so are a lotof the performance areas mental
(03:17):
performance, which areobviously, you know, working in
unfamiliar with nutrition,hydrations, you know, sleep, you
know, all kinds of little thingsthat kind of give you an
advantage. But I think thereality is that unless your
organization is truly openminded, you know, humble,
thoughtful, collaborative, allthe things that to me encompass,
(03:39):
you know, pieces of what defineculture, these for us, none of
those resources, either either,they're not not going to be
matter, or they're not going toimpact, you know, to the extent
they largely can impact. So forinstance, if you truly have
empowerment, collaboration, asyou know, pieces, and are
(04:00):
linchpins to your culture, andthey're their values that you
live up to on a daily basis,then people are going to act in
a way and as well as highstandards and expectations. And
people are going to act in a waythat you know, as if they're
accountable for success, andthey're going to take that
ownership, they're going to takethat accountability, they're
(04:21):
going to work with others,they're going to feel empowered,
if you're in a moral hierarchy,oh, close minded organization
that's resistant to change, thenpeople still may execute and
care about doing a good jobwithin the constraints of their
job description. But they'recertainly not going to look at
you know, innovating, pushingthe envelope, and you're not
(04:42):
going to have you know, you'regoing to have maybe 50 people
doing that at the leadershiplevel instead of 500 people
doing it at every level of theorganization. So I'm of the
belief that for us to overcomehuge resource gaps from our
biggest competitors, which wecertainly have, you know, it
takes every single personthinking that their works
meaningful, important, and thatthey feel empowered to make a
(05:04):
difference, make a differencemake an impact. And those are,
you know, that feeling thatbelief is part of culture.
Zoran Stojkovic (05:12):
So that's a lot of reasons why culture is a
competitive advantage. And atthe Blue Jays, you guys have a
clear cultures so collaborative,collaborate, learn, empower,
achieve, and respect, how andwhen did the Blue Jays come up
with those five words?
Mark Shapiro (05:28):
Well, I think it's one of those exercises that
whenever, you know, people moveorganizations and new leadership
comes into place new new andexisting leaders get together
and say, you know, we, we haveto think about what links us you
know, and you know, when I, whenI think about culture, I think
about the fact that, you know,and we'll, we'll simplify it for
(05:50):
right now and just talk aboutthe baseball operations side of
things, because that's the areamost that most people are
interested in, but it certainlypertains to the business side as
well. But within baseballoperations, we've got distinct
roles and distinctresponsibilities. And you can
break those down to you know,departments like international
scouting, you know, decisionsciences, performance areas, but
(06:13):
in reality, everyone, you know,in baseball operations is kind
of falls under four, you know,basic areas, identify talent,
acquire talent, develop talent,because we've got an extensive
development system in baseball.
And then building when the majorleague level, it's just the tip
of the spear, it's the onlything that people think about
(06:34):
and they think about a majorleague team, but within it,
you've got scouting that are outthere, in the amateur
international professionallevel, identifying talent,
you've got, you know, peoplethat are in analytics that are
in, you know, that are managingdata that are programmers
building out systems andthinking about how to best build
models and help us framedecisions. You've got people who
(06:56):
are focused on development, orhelping players maximize their
potential bridge, the gapbetween where their performance
is and where their potentiallies, mentally, physically, and
fundamentally across yourholistic all three areas. And
then you've got people thinkingabout, you know, how do you take
that town and build a majorleague team and win at the major
league level, and all the thingsthat go into that, if you don't
(07:18):
consciously define your values,then nothing connects, you
people still may do a good job,but you're not connecting the
same types of players you'reidentifying may not be the same
types of players that you'reultimately acquiring may not be
the kinds of players you'reultimately using to build your
major league team, there'snothing that kind of joins
(07:38):
people together and helps themfeel part of something. When we
sat down after getting here wasit was a, you know, a
combination of people that havebeen here for a long period of
time. And then some people likeraw sack into myself, and Angus
Mugford just came here, youknow, and we were trying to
develop common ground, andstill, you know, what was going
(08:00):
to link, you know, those areasgoing forward. And we, I mean,
the funny story is, we not justkeep we had, we didn't just come
up with the values, the clearvalues, collaborate, learn
power, achieve and respect. Wealso came up with a mission, you
know, like every organizationdoes, and it was long drawn out
kind of complex, and but reallygood, really good. And I
(08:23):
remember calling Ross Atkinsafter the retreat and saying,
What are you you know, who's theGM here and saying, What do you
How did you feel about it? Whatdo you think about the mission,
he goes, it's really good man.
But it goes, I wish we couldjust just, I wish it could just
be get better every day. And Isat there for a minute thinking
about and I was like, it can, itcan be get better, that's
(08:44):
beautiful. So the our missionbecame get better every day to
bring world championships toCanada, to Canada. That's it,
you know, and our values becameclear values. So it's two
pieces, you know, the mission isjust, we want to get better
every day, which means it's afancy way of saying we're a
learning culture. We're alearning organization, you know,
that we're focused on perpetualimprovement. You know, we're
(09:05):
humble, open and learning everysingle day that that opportunity
that exists, every single personhere is charged with making some
incremental improvement on adaily basis. And if we're doing
that, if the player is universalplayers are doing that, you
know, the physios are doing thatstrength coaches are doing that
hitting coaches doing that theintern is doing that the analyst
(09:28):
is doing that that video coachesdo if all those people are doing
that they're different subjectmatter expertise and advantages
and perspectives. Then we again,we're going to be a machine and
we're going to roll and we'regoing to, you know, overcome a
lot of challenges and be prettyexceptional at what we do. You
guys
Zoran Stojkovic (09:45):
got together when you got to the Blue Jays in
2015. And it was you Angus and acouple of others. And you want
to retreat and you just sat downand you brainstormed a bunch of
values?
Mark Shapiro (09:54):
Well, it was thinking about like what defines
us what connects us whatdifferentiates Working for the
Toronto Blue Jays as opposed toworking for the Los Angeles
Angels, you know, whatdifferentiates working for the
Toronto Blue Jays as opposed toworking for Microsoft, you know,
like, there has to be somethingthat that defines and the links
(10:15):
and differentiates what it meansto work here something that we
can think about. And again, youknow, something that we could
then take into hiring somethingthat we could then take into how
we evaluate something to holdeach other accountable, you
know, and mostly something thatwe believe deeply and just could
live on a daily basis, because Ithink all those processes, you
(10:37):
know, the way we evaluatepeople, the way we, you know,
hiring may be a little bitdifferent. But once we hire
Well, you know, everything elseshould just be kind of checking
things that we already know aregoing to be in place if we hire
really well, because, but weneed that roadmap, we need that
roadmap that says, These are thethings that we hold as being
(10:58):
sacred for us, these are thethings that are going to guide,
you know, the people that I wantto work with, who I want to work
next to, you know, what has towhat's important to the people
that want to wake up and worknext to every day.
Zoran Stojkovic (11:09):
So you start with the values, and then you
use that to figure out who youwant to hire and who you
actually let in the door becausethat I believe that has a big
impact on culture. Because one,there's a saying out there, it's
better to have 1000 enemiesoutside of your tent than one
inside the tent. Yeah, right.
Right. So one, one rotten applecan really mess things up.
Mark Shapiro (11:32):
Not only that, like an oversimplification, but
so true. I mean, I think thearea that people spend,
shortchange, that is so crucialto success is hiring, you know,
and I don't mean, when I sayhiring, you can think of that in
sports from a front officeexecutive, or drafting or
trading or signing a free agent.
But, you know, if we spent moretime thinking about the talent
(11:57):
we're bringing in, everythingelse really takes care of
itself, right. Because if youhire really well, and the values
are part of your hiring, or theculture is part of your hiring,
then those people alreadyunderstand when they come on
board, you know, and you'realready aligned coming on board,
you don't have to worry aboutalignment, those that's part of
the process. If you if you hirereally well, then you're going
(12:20):
to have a deep base of talent.
So succession planning, whetherit's, you know, balancing a
roster at the major leaguelevel, or recognizing that some
executives might leave and youneed other executives coming
behind them. But successionplanning will be built in if you
hire really well. So theefficiency created by hiring
(12:40):
well becomes a competitiveadvantage, we've got no
alignment from day one, whenpeople come in the door, there,
the expectation is we hire forpeople to make us better not to
earn their stripes and kind ofdo through some hierarchy of
chain of command and wait fortheir time, we want people to
come in the door withcomplementary skill sets and
(13:01):
make us better the day they gethere, right. And then we know
that they're already gonna bealigned, because the values
alignment was part of theselection process and part of
the hiring process. And we'vegot really high standards and
expectations, so and that's theachieved piece of the value. So
we've got a talent pipelinecoming up. So whether we've got
(13:23):
players leave, viewing throughfree agency, or you know, our
price, everything else we'retrying to do, or we've got front
office that decide for eitherpersonal or professional reasons
to go to another team, we've gottalent coming through, and we've
got a smooth transition.
Zoran Stojkovic (13:37):
So then is there how do you measure
alignment of actions to values,though? I mean, if somebody how
do you measure empowerment? Howdo you measure whether
somebody's learning in theirposition?
Mark Shapiro (13:47):
Well, if we have to measure it, then we're
already off course. You know, Ithink that, you know, we spend
the bulk of our time we do we domeasure it through an evaluation
process, but we spend the bulkof our time trying to get it
right at the outset, not worriedabout correcting it along the
way. Yes, we will hold eachother accountable to those
(14:08):
values, because they are they'rea standard part of our language
every day. They're a standardpart of how we evaluate success
or failure. And they're, they'rea standard part of how we, you
know, provide evaluations that,you know, along the way and at
the end of each year, but Iwould say to you that those
things are just formalities inmy mind. They're bureaucratic,
(14:28):
they're bureaucraticcheckpoints, that if we have to
check those things and have topull back and then we probably
did a bad job somewhere else, orwe started to disproportionately
place an emphasis on resultsinstead of you know, the process
along the way. So, you know, wehold ourselves back by spending
so much time and energy andtalking so much about our
(14:50):
values, through hiring processthrough our year. We're holding
ourselves accountable becausepeople you know, as leaders,
we're talking about those thingsand trying to live Have those
values every day?
Zoran Stojkovic (15:01):
Oh, I love that you're saying if you're
measuring it, you're kind of toolate and you have bigger
problems and measuring thosethings.
Mark Shapiro (15:07):
Yeah, I think if you're like having to safeguard
or, you know, kind of enforcethe values, then you might want
to go back and look at how wellyou did, you know, kind of
picking people and selectingpeople and players that already
believe in and, you know, livethose values as part of their
personal philosophy.
Zoran Stojkovic (15:27):
So then when it comes to selection, how do you
make sure those coming in,actually live those values to to
a certain standard that theorganization wants,
Mark Shapiro (15:38):
through an ever evolving interview process
through exercises and through aan examination of the life
they've lived. So, you know,whether it's questionnaires and
essays they write, whether it's,you know, real world case
studies, you know, that we'reproviding them that kind of
solve and sell or whether it's,you know, looking at how they've
(15:58):
worked in the past, who they'veworked with, who they work for,
who's worked for them, and doinga deep dive into kind of, you
know, their background, we'relooking for people that want to
be part of not just a majorleague baseball team, but want
to be part of a clearer culture,
Zoran Stojkovic (16:13):
where you're saying you don't just look at
player performance and resultsand stats, you look at more than
that.
Mark Shapiro (16:18):
Absolutely, we do, we look at whether they can be
productive, you know, part ofour team, a good teammate, you
know, and all the things that goin again, the values for our
players are a little bitdifferent than collaborate,
learn and power, achievingrespect, but they are not that
far. Apart from that there aremany crossovers, they're the
values that we hold for ourfront office, business and
(16:39):
baseball, through ourperformance staffs or our
coaching staffs, all of the nonplayers are the clear values.
Interesting, we do we place anemphasis on character,
perseverance, long term, youknow, growth and development and
and the humble open, you know,learning piece that that is
(17:00):
relevant for our players as itis for for, you know, front
office,
Zoran Stojkovic (17:03):
right, so this this 1% improvements every day,
this this Kaizen mindset is oneof the things that I'm hearing
you mentioned quite often, isthat something that's personally
important to you, is thatsomething? How do you how do you
live that? I mean, how do you dothat every day?
Mark Shapiro (17:22):
It's something that as I kind of, as you, you
seek to evolve and understand,you know, when you're happy,
fulfill that piece of content,who you with, and what are you
doing, you know, and as Istarted to think about those
things, you know, it's alwaysaround other people who are
curious, it's around otherpeople who are open minded. It's
(17:46):
around other people who, youknow, are focused on learning
and growing, and developing andgetting better. And, you know,
you won't, you'll missopportunities to do that, if
you're not open minded, becauseit's not necessarily going to
come with someone that has abigger title, it's not going to
necessarily going to come fromsomeone who, you know, has, you
(18:09):
know, status, it could come fromanyone, you know, and I think
that walking through whether youcall it the beginner's mindset,
or whether you just, you know,recognize that, as part of your
routine, you're going to readsomething every day, you're
gonna enter into every meeting,and every, your group you speak
to, with the thought thatthere's an opportunity here for
(18:31):
me to learn, if I come in withan open mind, if I come in so
sure of myself. So set in myways, and so confident in what
I'm doing, there's a very goodchance, I'm not going to learn,
I'm not going to get any better.
You know, so my goal is not totell you how much I know, my
goal is to figure out what youknow, and see what you know, I
can learn from you.
Zoran Stojkovic (18:54):
That's a mindset that I click with, for
sure of going into everyinteraction with, hey, every
conversation can can enrich myinner world and, and we it's
this give and take, I think, andDoc Rivers talks about using it
and this Ubuntu and there's thismindset of you give to me and I
(19:17):
give to you, and this exchangehappens, and it's not about only
taking taking taking or onlygiving, giving giving.
Mark Shapiro (19:23):
Yeah, I've heard that and I love that. And I
think, you know, it's funnywisdom, a lot of times to me is
like passing on the, you know,the giving someone else the
benefit of your past challengesand your past struggles. So a
lot of what I have to offer isnot like some sort of, you know,
great insight into success.
It's, hey, here's the challengesI've had, and here's what here's
(19:45):
the miscues and missteps I'vetaken and hopefully we all can
learn from those and get betterinstead of just me, you know,
Zoran Stojkovic (19:53):
interesting. So if I can ask on that, then what
have you What have you done overthe past five years together?
Create a high standard and thiscohesive culture. At the Blue
Jays, you've talked aboutrecruiting practices and hiring
practices. I wonder if you couldspeak to some other aspects? And
then what have been some of thetop blockers or obstacles for
you in creating that shift inthe organization? When you came
(20:16):
in, in November? 2015?
Mark Shapiro (20:18):
Let's start with the second part of the question.
You know, and I think that thebiggest challenge when you come
into transforming culture orjust implementing changes in
general, you know, some of themare situational, right, just
circumstantial, they're just forthe moment. So the biggest
challenge we came in was justthat there was a lot of, you
know, very recent success. Sopeople felt in people that were
(20:42):
resistant to change, that werenot prone to being open minded,
and thinking about how thingscan be better had were
emboldened to be resistant tochange based on short term
success. So that that, to me,though, is just a situational,
circumstantial challenge. Moresystemic, of every place, not
the Blue Jays is that, you know,most human beings are
(21:06):
comfortable with change, mosthuman beings want to feel
certain of, you know, theterrain around them, even if
that means that they don't wantto be accountable, or they don't
want any huge level ofresponsibility, because it's
comfortable to just perform theright responsibilities within
this small box, I'm going tojust stay in my box, getting out
(21:27):
of that, you know, collaboratingor, you know, offering an
opinion in an area outside of myown expertise, puts me makes me
vulnerable, puts me out there.
So I would say that, you know,the biggest challenge coming in
was the short term success that,and just the inherent reality
that until people feel some sortof safety, and trust and
(21:49):
respect, they're going to beresistant to being open minded
and resistance changing. Soyou've got the best ways to deal
with that, or, you know, to, toearn respect, to earn trust, to
not expect that it's given toyou based on title based on
past, you know, his three yearperformance, and that you've got
(22:10):
to demonstrate and create thatsafe environment for people so
they feel comfortable. Otheropportunities for doing that are
as simple as how you runmeetings, to basically how you
make decisions, that's the bestexample I can give you, you
know, if a decision is made byone person, and everybody in an
(22:31):
organization, and I've seen thisand saw this here, when I got
here, it most people in anorganization are waiting for one
person in the chain of commandto make a decision, that's going
to be a reflection of thevalues, you know, and you're
inherently saying that person'sa better decision maker, for
some reasons, you know, which,by the way, is not friggin true.
(22:53):
You know, there are no greatdecision makers, like as much as
we anecdotally think someone isprone to making great decisions,
I am not that guy, I am not thatperson. And I've yet to meet the
woman or man, that's just abetter decision maker. I've met
elite leaders that lead best inclass decision making processes,
(23:15):
which means they which meanthey're open minded enough to
bring in all the bestinformation from all the best
people. And then they create thebest framework for how to make
decisions. So to me the best,the best way to demonstrate
those values, besides the hiringprocess, which is the single
most important way, is to framedecision making processes to
(23:36):
frame meetings as opportunitiesto kind of demonstrate that this
is what we're doing, we arecollaborating, we are empowering
certain people that, you know,that might not be, you know,
entitled, the highest to come upwith ideas to propose those
ideas, you know, to explain, weare expecting high standards,
you know, that would be reallyimportant, you know, for us, and
(23:59):
we're demonstrating that levelof respect and everything we do.
Zoran Stojkovic (24:04):
The, you're saying, the ideal time to make
tweaks and changes, because whenyou're on top of your game, and
not actually when when you'relosing?
Mark Shapiro (24:13):
No, I mean, I think it's got to be constant.
You know, I was talking moreabout the transition coming in,
you know, okay, but I think youdon't sit back and say, We're
not going to live our valuestoday, changes would be the
wrong, you know, nomenclature orjust the wrong semantics. It's
more just growth. It's morelearning. It's developing, it's
evolving, you know, I mean, it'slistening because as some way
(24:35):
someone has been doing it mightbe, you know, already better
than anything we've considered.
But the one place where I'm, youknow, where I'm not flexible,
and I'm not open is whensomeone's not open minded, and
they're not humble, and theythink that they just know better
than everyone else. And thatthat, to me, would be a
violation of the culture we'retrying to build here and it
(24:56):
would be very tough for us. andneed to work with that person
long term.
Zoran Stojkovic (25:02):
But what if that safety, trust and respect
you're missing for that person,for whatever reason,
Mark Shapiro (25:07):
you do the best you can to, to openly call out
that and talk about that and tryto develop that. But ultimately,
you know, there are going to bepeople who are not the right fit
for for all organizations,either both ways. And so you and
you have to make changes, andthat's the case.
Zoran Stojkovic (25:24):
So this last season, the Blue Jays had 91
wins, which is one win behindthe Red Sox and the Yankees. So
with that, that goes to show isit was a tight race, but the
importance of each and everygame, and you're talking about
this continuous evolution andchange, how good of a measure is
winning of connected andcohesive culture? Actually?
Mark Shapiro (25:48):
Well, I think, again, culture is part of
process. And if you execute onprocess, over and over again,
repeatedly, the outcomes willstart to align with process more
often than not, there always arevariables and randomness, that
impact you know, the team thatwon the World Series, one, three
less games and asked for lessgames in the Red Sox, and
(26:09):
Yankees. So, you know, I guesswhat I'd say is just continue to
execute over and over and overagain. And that likelihood of
winning a World Series or aworld championship are going to
be pretty good over time. Butthe outcomes do reflect, you
know, the process and the valuesand how you go about things. But
(26:30):
but on a short term on a short,you know, on a small set of data
on a small, you know, number ofgames on one season, and
independently. You are you'reyou may end up with an outlier.
So you got to stay committed,and you've got to continue to
evaluate and assess. And again,like, whether it's 91, or 95,
(26:51):
wins, or want to get better nomatter what. Sometimes getting
better might mean just stayingthe same number of wins in order
to get in order. You know, inorder to do that you have to get
better.
Zoran Stojkovic (27:01):
Because in your interview on sports net, you
mentioned that you want toimprove on that number of 91
wins next season. Yeah,
Mark Shapiro (27:08):
well, we need to win one or two more games to be
sure we're going to get into theplayoffs 91, I think you know,
as about a 90% chance, or 91 isa pretty good chance of getting
in. So we just we were that teamthat didn't get in with 91 wins,
which is tough. But hey, that'sit is what it is like we just
doesn't mean we need to be towhine about that or be
(27:30):
disappointed. Nobody cares. Justfind a way to keep getting
better and keep improving.
Zoran Stojkovic (27:36):
So Mark, how accurately Do you feel Reid
diamond portrayed you in the2011 film Moneyball starring
Brad Pitt and Jonah Hill
Mark Shapiro (27:44):
have Moneyball question I always I wish I wish
I had known when I agreed to letthem use my, my name in that
movie that I would be answeringquestions all these years later.
You know, listen, read diamond,they found a guy that they could
dress up to kind of look alittle bit like me, probably not
(28:04):
good for him there. But not badfor me. But in reality, it was
pretty the scene was the scenesI was in were pretty fictitional
I wasn't even GM yet. When thosethings happen. I was assistant
GM. You know, while I know Billywell, and he's a friend, he was
never in my office in Cleveland.
You know, I recommended the guythat that Jonah Hill played Paul
(28:25):
de Pedesta, you know, obviouslydidn't use his name. It wasn't a
situation where he was stolenfrom us. And we were doing a lot
of those things, too. I'll be atthe as you know, little behind
us. They they kind of portrayCleveland as a big market, and
which is kind of humorous. Whilewe did function that way for a
little bit in the mid 90s. To dosome unusual circumstances. You
(28:46):
know, we were for the entiretime I was GM. There. We were a
very small market team. And wewere doing differently, but
thinking about things the sameway as the A's, which are, you
know, how do we mind value inthe marketplace? How do we, you
know, find competitive advantageovercome huge resource gaps?
Zoran Stojkovic (29:08):
For sure. And years ago, when I watched the
movie, I figured that thosemovies have to make scenes
entertaining, and they don'tknow exactly the dialogue that
happened. And I know that theyput
Mark Shapiro (29:22):
the general themes are still valid and important,
but it actually was good for meto, to experience that. Because
when they say based upon a truestory, you recognize Well, in
order to make four to fiveyears, in the 90 minutes or 100
minutes, you're going to need totake a lot of liberties with the
actual story. I think that'swhat they have to do and they
make movies so there it shouldsay very loosely based upon a
(29:44):
true story.
Zoran Stojkovic (29:47):
Yeah, so it's, it's an entertaining movie. I
think what I got out of it wasthe importance of analytics. And
is that
Mark Shapiro (29:55):
the absolutely the importance of data driven or
informed decision making? Youknow, are is is important. I
think, as I, as I reflect onthat now, it's more
understanding bias, you know,which is something that we as a
game did not do well fordecades. And so when you thought
(30:18):
about the ways that we madedecisions, you know, it was
prone to so many differentbiases, recency bias, contextual
bias. recency bias is obviouslya huge one, like, who won the
World Series? How do they do it,that's the way we need to build
our team or, you know, theloudest voice in the room or
whatever it was, like we wereprone to, you know, and then
(30:41):
recognizing that model baseddecision making, which is, you
know, a frame framework for howwe make decisions based on the
history of similar decisionsthat have been made, some of
which would involve data andanalytics, but some of which may
still be subjective opinion, butput into a framework where we're
looking at it from a modelsperspective, we're going to end
(31:02):
up with a better decision at thecook, because ultimately, we're
going to regress out the biasthat you know, could infect the
decision making process,
Zoran Stojkovic (31:11):
right. And interviews are, have typically
been found to not be a greatpredictor of performance job
performance. Actually,absolutely.
Mark Shapiro (31:20):
If you're facing if you're, if you think you can
hire Well, based just on anhour, it's for the exact same
reasons that individuals aren'tgreat decision makers want
individuals not a betterdecision maker than any other,
right? Because you're basingthat on such a, you know, I've
got a good gut feel on people Ican I have a good a good gut on
her, I can, like read her betterthan anyone else. Campbell, I
(31:42):
know, you can't, you know, youactually cannot, you know, but
if you go through a rigorous,you know, multi leveled, you
know, hiring process thatinvolves, you know, a lot of
different people andperspectives involved in plan
force ranking, you know, and,you know, writing samples and,
you know, other exercises thatactually demonstrate, you know,
(32:05):
how someone works as well as360, you deep dive into their
work history, you got a muchbetter chance to make a good
hire than just sitting with themfor an hour.
Zoran Stojkovic (32:15):
You do and hiring, onboarding and turnover
actually quite expensiveprocesses for organizations to
take quite a lot of timeactually bring bring somebody up
to speed to find the rightperson? Yeah, whether somebody
is going through headhuntersrecruiters, or whatever the
situation is. So picking theright people is is really, in
(32:37):
one of your interviews, youtalk, you said something that
really stuck with me. You talkabout aligning the leader you
are with the man that you are,and that's something that your
father passed down to you? Howcan leaders do a check to see
how aligned these two are forthem?
Mark Shapiro (32:57):
Yeah, I think it comes down to, you know, a level
of awareness, you know, that youas you start to act and think
about, you know, am I different?
Am I acting differently, youknow, when I'm at home, as a
father, as a partner, as abrother, as a son, than I am
when I walk in a building, andI'm supposedly a leader, right?
(33:19):
I shouldn't be any different, Ishould be the same person, the
same human being, when you startto believe the hype of a title,
a CEO title, oh, today I'm actputting my CEO cable I'm acting
as a CEO, or a GM or whateverrole you've got, you're going to
start to believe that you'respecial in some way. And again,
(33:40):
it's gonna result in you know,getting back to you not being as
open minded, not, you know,being as compassionate,
empathetic, vulnerable, all thethings that, you know, will, you
know, surely lead you to be abetter leader over a period of
time and make better decisionsand, and how maximize the talent
within an organization. So, Ithink when I think about life's
(34:03):
most important roles, certainlybeing a father is the one that I
view to be most important. Sowhy would I want to be good at
that, or, you know, any lessonsthat are any better at that,
than I am as a leader, I justview those to be the same, I
need to lead the same way that Iparents need the same way that
I, you know, partner Lee, thesame way that I'm a friend, you
(34:24):
know, and I just don't do thatto be any different. And so I
hoped that I keep people near mein my life that you know, feel
free to call me out they seethat I'm getting off course but
I'm also you also never far fromrealizing that you know, the
self importance doesn't meananything, everything's pretty
temporary. It can all go awaypretty quickly. So the one thing
(34:47):
that I want to be certain of is,you know, the relationships
because those Outlast everythingelse.
Zoran Stojkovic (34:54):
They do. So what I'm hearing is having those
people around you that can thatno you are deep down as a
person. And for them to have thefreedom and the psychological
safety to say, Hey, you're beenoff course for a couple days.
And here's what you're doinghere is how it's affecting those
around you.
Mark Shapiro (35:14):
And for me to be aware enough that when I start
to feel those things, or thinkthose things, whoa, whoa, whoa,
that's not good. You're not anybetter. Don't expect to be
treated any differently thananyone else. And, you know, make
sure that you're holdingyourself to the same standards
you're holding other people to.
Zoran Stojkovic (35:32):
I do have each episode I do a listener
question. Okay, this one comesfrom Tom Jones, who's a former
Canadian National Teamvolleyball player. So Tom asked,
when you have a star performer,who's a either staff or, or
player, office staff playerdoesn't matter, who's having a
negative impact? How do you workwith them on changing that?
Mark Shapiro (35:54):
It's not easy, you know, again, I'd say, try to get
it right up front, rather thantry to correct it along the way.
So be good at before you draftedsign or traded for that player,
you already recognize some ofthat is going to be dependent
upon how far advanced yourculture is already. Because if
it's if it's if it's advancedenough than peer to peer player
(36:16):
to player, they'll take care ofit themselves, which is where
you want to be, you want to beable to take the chance on a
player who might not perfectlyalign has the talent to help
make you a championship team,but might not perfectly aligned
with the culture, you can dothat, if you're far enough along
where your culture is clearlydefined, where people there feel
(36:37):
responsible and invested in it,and are willing to enforce it,
you know, themselves. If me orwe as leaders have to sit down
with someone and try to get themback on course. You know, again,
like, it's going to be tough,because we're dealing with
adults that are probably alreadyfully formed, we can help them
(36:58):
be more aware, you know, of whythat's important, we can openly
have the conversation that, youknow, our team's success is
dependent upon some adjustments,and you know, how that how
you're behaving and how it'simpacting others. But if it
says, that's something that'snot relevant or important, and
(37:18):
people feel like all thosethings, you know, should be
justified by talent, thenthey're probably not a good fit
for the culture. There's abalance between, you know,
talent and character, talents,just kind of a given. But
ultimately, if someone feelsthat their talent, you know,
justifies any behavior, even athow it's counterproductive to a
(37:41):
culture, then they're probablynot the right fit for us. And I
think those players or playersthat we either have chosen to
trade or to ultimately notresign here,
Zoran Stojkovic (37:50):
how would your answer change? If? How would you
deal with like a non big nameplayer, if they were having the
same negative impact on culture,
Mark Shapiro (37:57):
same way, it's just easier to make the change.
Zoran Stojkovic (38:00):
Thank you so much for coming on this. I've,
I've really enjoyed this. And Iknow, folks are going to get a
lot of value out of this. And Igot a lot out of it myself,
where can people connect withyou?
Mark Shapiro (38:14):
Well, I mean, I do, I, I'm not active, you know,
as far as putting stuff outthere, but I'm on Twitter every
day, it's I find, I find Twitterto be actually a, you know, in
the realm of social media, youknow, it's if you're selective
about the people you follow onwhat you're read, there's so
much incredible, incredibleinformation and so much, you
(38:36):
know, knowledge being shared onTwitter that you can direct mail
me right from my, you know, atMark Shapiro, right from my, you
know, Twitter, and I willoccasionally like, I like a lot
of things. So if you're watchingthem liking and you follow me
watch I'm liking or Ioccasionally will put stuff out
there too, sometimes just funstuff. And sometimes, you know,
you know, things I think arerelevant is for for other people
(38:58):
that are like minded in the waywe kind of think about learning
and, and growth and, and gettingbetter. So that's probably the
best way, you know, I willcertainly look there and always
respond to people as well.
Zoran Stojkovic (39:11):
Amazing. So Twitter, I'll put that in the
show notes. And fine, just thefinal question. Any parting
thoughts?
Mark Shapiro (39:17):
No, I mean, I think the, you know, the
opportunity to kind of reflectand think about, you know, how
essential culture is to both mepersonally and us as an
organization, you know, inensuring that we identify people
that to work and play here that,you know, share a similar set of
beliefs in the way we treatother people and the way we
(39:40):
focus on growth is not justimportant for you know, our
fulfillment and happiness butalso important for our
competitiveness. You know, we'retrying to overcome an outperform
objective expectations for thatto happen. You know, we need not
just 1520 people, which is kindof popular culture, you know,
focuses on individuals. But ourthoughts are always Hey, what if
(40:04):
we get 50 100 200 250 Peopleall, you know, performing all
accountable of thinking abouthow to get better, you know, how
what could that mean to us as anorganization and we I think we
started to cross the tippingpoint that you know what it
feels like to work in the BlueJays IT organization and to be
here. And like I said, we'regoing to keep executing on that
(40:26):
keep believing and doubling downon those values. And I think the
championships will follow, youknow, the those beliefs and
actions, you know, we've gotheavy lift, the heavy lifting of
transforming the culture isdone. You know, when I think
about the next five years, it'sperpetual growth, you know, it's
perpetual opportunities toimprove, it's thinking about
where the next opportunity togain incremental competitive
(40:49):
advantage lies. And, you know, Ithink paramount to us finding
where those competitiveadvantages are, are staying true
to the values of, you know,collaboration, learning and
powering, you know, achievingand respect. So, if we continue
to live, those, you know, willadvance the culture moving
forward, which means a lot ofnew people will come in and
(41:12):
continue to kind of push us tohigher levels in performance.
Zoran Stojkovic (41:18):
There's a ton of took away from the
conversation with Mark. But ifthere's one thing I want you to
take away, it's this before youlook for the next hire or
recruit, sit down with yourleadership group and revisit
your values, answer questions,such as what links us and what
differentiates working for thisteam, or organization. Once you
have the answers to thosequestions, it gives you a common
(41:40):
language, something you can usein evaluations, and something
you can use the hold each otheraccountable as colleagues, but
it also gives you something youcan deeply believe in. You can
then use those values to rethinkand reshape your hiring process
and enhance the human capitalbecause you're going to be
making better hiring decisions.
And human capital is the value.
(42:00):
Those who are part of your teambring to the table who you let
into your team has the biggestimpact on culture. Join us next
time for a conversation withTravis Thomas, leadership and
team development specialist atthe US Men's National Soccer
Team as we deep dive into howimprovisation and creativity can
build a high performanceculture.
(42:28):
Hey, thanks for listening tocultivate your culture. I hope
you enjoyed our deep dive intohow to level up the
relationships and environment tocultivate your team's culture.
If you enjoyed this episode,share it with someone in your
life, leave a rating andsubscribe visit
KI zero.ca/podcast to get extraresources and join our email
list. A huge shout out toteriyaki from earbuds for
(42:52):
producing the music for thisshow and to Kate love it and
Silvio Canalla parola forhelping produce and promote the
show. Cultivate your culturesproduced by Keizo a leadership
coaching organization helpingteams to get the results they
want so that they can positivelyimpact the world. To learn more
about the services Keizo canprovide for your team, please
check out our website at Kzero.ca/team See you again next
(43:14):
week.
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