February 11, 2021 • 46 mins
In this episode of Cultivate your Culture, we are joined by Monique Kavelaars. Monique is a retired Olympic fencer, entrepreneur, business facilitator, and trainer. She has been working with teams to create cultural shifts in pursuit of high performance for over 15 years. Building on her experience as a Canadian Olympian, Monique guides teams to learn about what it takes to be an effective team while focused on the results. Returning to Canada (After living abroad for 13 years) Monique works as a consultant bringing her talents as a motivating team member. Offering her expertise on facing challenges, problem-solving and collaborative decisions making towards team goals. She will also be working with the Canadian Olympic team as an Athlete Mentor for the 2021 Olympics next summer.
Connect with Monique via Twitter, LinkedIn, or Instagram. Check out her website for more details on what Monique does and the impact she can make in your organization.
The host, Zoran Stojkovic believes that we are all born to flourish in work and life. Through his company, Kizo, he equips organizations and people with culture and mindset tools to reach full engagement through powerful workshops, memorable keynotes, and transformative individual consultations.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Monique Kavelaars (00:00):
I think the best starting place is
recognizing the behaviors thatare the right. Right? What are
the rules of engagement? Whatare the rights to play? So, I,
you know, we can look atdecision making and hierarchy
and you know how peoplecommunicate, but those can all
be boiled down into behaviors ofhow we actually what's expected
(00:20):
of us.
Zoran Stojkovic (00:24):
Hello, I'm your host, Zoran Stojkovic, and
welcome to Cultivate yourCulture. This podcast we'll be
discussing how leaders can buildconnected, high-performing teams
and business and sport usingactionable tools, evidence based
systems and simple processes.
Today on the show, we haveMonique Kavelaars. Monique is a
(00:47):
retired Olympic fencer,entrepreneur and business
facilitator and trainer. She hasbeen working with teams to
create cultural shifts inpursuit of high performance for
over 15 years. Building on herexperience as a Canadian
Olympian Monique guides teams tolearn about what it takes to be
an effective team while focusedon the results. Returning to
(01:10):
Canada. Monique works as aconsultant bringing her talents
as a motivating team memberoffering her expertise on facing
challenges, problem solving andcollaborative decisions,
decision making towards teamgoals. And she'll also be
working with the CanadianOlympic team as an athlete
mentor in the 2021 Olympics nextsummer. We're hoping those
(01:32):
Olympics happen when you Welcometo the show.
Monique Kavelaars (01:34):
Thank you so much. It's weird to say 2021 I'm
like "What, when did that didthat happen?" 2020 has been a
blur.
Zoran Stojkovic (01:42):
It is it is it's it's it's an unprecedented
time with what the Olympicsbeing pushed back and pressure
all sorts of competitionscanceled, and it's gonna be
interesting to see how it looks.
And it's definitely a challengefor athletes and coaches and
Federations as well.
Monique Kavelaars (01:55):
And the fans like I don't know how he felt.
But once everything went silent,it was like sitting on the sofa
in the evening, like, what arewe going to watch? Like, what
are we going to? How are wegoing to entertain herself?
There was no NBA, Major LeagueBaseball, nothing, nothing. Yes,
it's very strange, very strange,but I'm glad it's back.
Zoran Stojkovic (02:14):
Yeah, definitely, I can't imagine the
stress of having to readjust ayearly training plan to not have
the Olympics, essentially thisyear and, and potentially not
having it in 2021.
Monique Kavelaars (02:27):
And I know a few athletes who were preparing,
and I knew that they weredifferent stages of their
career. So for some, it even waslike, Oh, this was gonna be my
last one, I was gonna start afamily, I get to hang around or
for some injured and having theopportunity to say, hey, there's
a window here that I can kind ofbounce back. And so, you know,
(02:48):
it's just life though. Right? Sogo with it. So.
Zoran Stojkovic (02:52):
It is it is. So teams. I mean, when we think of
a team culture, we love teams.
Everybody's part of a team, weboth work with teams on helping
them be the best versions ofthemselves. And team culture is
a word that gets thrown outquite a bit, but they're
sometimes hard to pin down whatit actually means. So what is
how do you define team cultureMonique?
Monique Kavelaars (03:16):
Um, I kind of defined it, it's it has a lot of
legs to it. So I would say it'slike a word that is like a way
of life for a group? How are wegoing to actually create meaning
within the group or team thatwe're in? What's our values,
how, what are our attitudetowards what we're doing
collectively. And it's a patternin that kind of interaction. And
(03:42):
sometimes if not being observedor managed or least attended to,
a pattern can change, like anyhabit. So it can go up and down,
there's a real has to be a realconscious choice of what it is,
collectively, of what it isimportant for the group to
function and, and how and how weall can contribute. So it's a
(04:04):
it's a, it has two aspects, one,the individual input of what you
are personally and yourpreference and how you step in
with your own history. And, youknow, psychologically how we
have is our preference, even howwe were raised, it sort of
impacts how we impact ourculture around us. And also,
just when you walk into a team,I think we all can recognize,
(04:25):
you know, it, the first job orthe first sports team, you walk
into the new person and youryour spidey senses are up
because you're really trying toconnect to the, to the group and
understand this unspokenlanguage of how we're going to
be with each other. So that is,in my mind how culture is in if
(04:45):
we looked at the world stage,you know, you could recognize so
many different cultures in Italyor in France or in Sweden or
China. So the subtle messages ofhow we actually interact and the
way we interact with each otheras a pattern. That's how I look
at it.
Zoran Stojkovic (04:59):
Ineresting. So the patterns of interacting with
each other were taught, youmentioned attitude, talking
about this this way of life thisway of being both individually
and as, as as part of a group.
And so why, then why is itimportant to cultivate the
culture of a business or sportsteam? I mean, it's, it's great,
but why should companies andteams be investing resources
(05:22):
into that?
Monique Kavelaars (05:24):
You know, it's a great question, because
sometimes it's like, it'suncertain. It's an unwritten
rule. I can only I can describeit in in a little story. There's
the story that we talked aboutculture where these two young
fish are swimming in the water.
And this old fish is swimming inthe opposite direction. And the
old fish says to the two youngfish, Hey, boys, how's the
water, and they kind of look ateach other strange, and they
(05:47):
swim away. And then finally, onefish says to the other fish,
what's water? Whether we like itor not, we're all in water, in
our families, in ourcommunities, in our
organizations, it's where wefeel connected. It's where we
consciously or unconsciouslydecide to stay and lean in or
lean out. So when you ask thequestion, why is it important?
(06:11):
First off, it brings us meaningand connection. Secondly, it
awful offers an organizationalroutine, who is rallying around
the goal together to find likeminded individuals who will buy
in to the craziness that's goingto happen when you when you sign
up, whether it's an organizationor sports team, or even marrying
(06:33):
into a family, you you sort ofsee like, Okay, what is how is
this all about, it's importantto cultivate because we are
connected, and that's how wekind of unconsciously sort of
moving into areas and why don'twe lean into others? It's
because we don't fit in andthat's culture. In my mind.
Zoran Stojkovic (06:57):
When you talked about the fish I just pictured
Nemo swimming with another fish.
Monique Kavelaars (07:02):
And Dory not remembering a second later.
Zoran Stojkovic (07:04):
Dory "Wait, what we're in water?" Yeah, no,
that's, I think that's, that's abeautiful way to put it because
teams have a culture regardlessof whether they work on it, or
think about it or not. And, and,and sometimes people lean in, or
they lean out and disengage. Andyou're saying it's important
because we're all connected. Andultimately, by by being
(07:28):
connected, and by, bycultivating a culture, teams
will perform better.
Monique Kavelaars (07:35):
They will.
And I guess the question is,what you want out of your team,
and I being a very, you know,results focused person, I'm
going to walk in going, Okay,where's the finish line? Like?
How are we going to get there?
What's the goal? And how can Ican contribute. So I speak in
(07:57):
two lanes. When I think aboutsport, though, it's it's
different. Because we can onlyengage at that high level if I
think in high performance sportfor so long. And there's an
awareness of knowingparticularly as an athlete, if
you're working on the Olympiclevel, there's a four year
quadrennial that you're kind ofworking and you're either an
athlete focused on your own,like, let's say you're a diver,
(08:18):
you have a team, but yourindividual performance, but your
team around you, you couldn'teven have diving where you're in
synchronized diving or, or inthe sport that I did in fencing,
you know, my performanceindividually impacted the
everybody. And, and I washanding it off to them, or they
would hand it off to me, likegood luck go. Or there's that
(08:38):
invasion kind of sport teamwhere you're collectively
touching each other abasketball, but you know, soccer
where you're you don't getanywhere unless it's a seamless
situation. So it's importantbecause if we're all trying to
achieve something together, weall have to know. First off what
we're trying to achieve. And ifwe want good people on the bus
(09:00):
sort of thing, we need to makesure that they recognize who we
are, and we want them in ratherthan you guys are all crazy, and
I'm stepping off.
That's that's the biggest pointfor me why it's important. I've
seen teams succeed, though, Ishould say, I have seen teams
succeed with toxic culture, andit's by sheer dumb luck. And
(09:24):
there's nothing sustainable init. Like it's a one off. And
usually the the winds are veryindividualistic, and nobody
really feels good about it. SoI'm not suggesting it's the only
way to win because I have seenit go another way. But it is,
you know, it has greatermeaning. I think when there's a
culture that everyone reallywants to be a part of.
Zoran Stojkovic (09:46):
Okay, so you're you're thinking it's not
necessary to have a greatculture to win. But that's only
that winning and that highperformance is only going to
happen like once.
Monique Kavelaars (09:59):
I think it's depends on the game you're
playing. If it's the long game,it's not going to work. If
you're looking at anorganization long game, you're
going to see turnover, you'regoing to see people leave,
you're going to see top talentleave.
And you're going to be spendinga lot of energy trying to stay
afloat. In a sports team, youknow, it's a very tangible
blackline, there can be a winand a loss. And maybe in the
(10:21):
short term, you're going to havesome gains. But I can't see and
I've never seen long term, thelong game of a success, I don't
even want to put in a number oftime years on it, there's just
nothing sustainable, becausesooner or later, whatever that
toxicity is, it can be sheerdumb luck, but that, that one
(10:42):
off isn't a true representationof what if you if you took a
statistical you know, you know,what has a greater reward
system, it's going to be thehealthy culture that that is
cultivated around the valuesthat you have, and inclusivity
and the connection that youcreate.
Zoran Stojkovic (11:00):
Oh, for sure.
And I mean, let's say somebody'sbought into this, we've defined
team culture, somebody boughtinto why it's important. How can
it be cultivated?
Monique Kavelaars (11:10):
Yes, it's, um, I think the best starting
place is recognizing thebehaviors that are the right,
like, what are the rules ofengagement? What are the rights
to play, so I, you know, we canlook at decision making and
hierarchy, and you know, howpeople communicate, but those
can all be boiled down intobehaviors of how we actually
(11:31):
what's expected of us. I hadrecently posted something that I
thought was fun, I'd seen theNorwegian ski team during the
Olympics in Korea had had threesimple rules to their culture,
which was no jerks allowed,basically be humble. And anyone
can sit anywhere, meaning if youhad one the day before or lost,
(11:52):
it doesn't matter, you don't getextra privileges, we're all
equal. And Friday night, taconight, basically, that's on the
road, even though we're sick ofeach other every night, every
Friday on the road we eattogether. So cultures don't have
to be intensive, but thebehavior is around creating
connection. And, you know,having trust, you know, knowing
that no jerks allowed tells melike there is a there's a
(12:16):
consequence to how you'reinteracting. There's more things
like how do we perform, like, wewant to work hard. But we have
also had cultures where peoplecan work really hard and knock
people over to a point wherethere's work the hard work hard,
and there's a trail of deadbodies of sorts behind them. And
we call them the skillfulpolitician because they're
(12:38):
working hard. They're verysocially smart, but they're not
very humble. And they're notreally engaging everybody.
They're not seeing, you know,they're not thinking less of
themselves. They're, you know,they, what's the expression,
being humble is not thinkingless of yourself, it's thinking
of yourself less. They're notthinking of the entire team. So
that's, that's key. So it's astarting point is just the
(13:01):
behaviors to answer yourquestion, communication. Trust
being the biggest one, beingable to sort of have everybody
understand that there's aliability trust doesn't mean,
you're my best friend, it justmeans I can trust that, you
know, if we get it when it getshard, and it will, you've got my
back, we both know what we'regoing to do. And I'm going to
(13:22):
trust that you're going to doeverything you can to do it. And
there's a vulnerability when yousay, I can't do it, can you help
me? You know what you think, oryou're better than that than me?
that that's true vulnerabilityof saying, help me out like I'm
struggling here. And knowingthat you can do that as a team
or as an organization is key.
Because our ego does get in theway.
Zoran Stojkovic (13:44):
Yeah, yeah, it definitely does. And what a
great example by the Norwegianteam of sharing the meal
together, where where it's, it'sreally not about the sport, you
just getting to know each otherand bonding off the ski slopes.
Anyone could sit anywhere. Sothere's, there's no rookies and
veterans, and then that kind ofthing. And then the no jerk
(14:04):
rule, which other like the AllBlacks have have a similar
philosophy? Oh, yeah. For thatone, except they call it they
call a little bit different.
Yeah, and I mean, Monique,you're saying it's it's
important to have these? Whatare the rules of play what's
expected of us, but who has tobe in those conversations to get
that going? I mean, is it theleadership group? Is it the head
(14:26):
coach is the GM? Is it in abusiness? Is it the managers?
Monique Kavelaars (14:32):
I think, sadly, it not. Sadly, this is
just the truth. I think we are abit of a hierarchical culture.
Not as high as some cultures,but realistically as human
beings. We, you know, we grew upwith parents, they weren't
charged. They told us how thingswere. So I can't help but
recognize that the leadershiphas a big part, to establish
(14:54):
what is going what's going towork as a coach. They set the
tone. I remember it In Sweden, Iused to live there. And I
remember hearing a coach on thenational team, or at least he
was he was coaching one of theheight, like the sort of NHL of
Sweden. And he had some simplerules, which was, he established
you work hard every day, be agood teammate, be curious, and
(15:19):
compete every day. So though, hewould do that, and you could see
that, it wasn't just words, hedemanded it all the time. But
what you also started torecognize and see is that
leaders on the team started totake that on there. You know,
when when you have your peergroup, or, you know, your coach
may be saying that, but whenyour teammate is doing it every
(15:40):
day, and then looks at you, andyou're like, Hey, this is what
we're doing here. And it's mucheasier for that person to stand
in that place and demand that oftheir teammate or their
colleague when it's comingstraight from the top. Right.
Zoran Stojkovic (15:53):
So you saying it's, it's a lot more powerful
when teammates and colleaguespolice that and not absolute
person that's in charge?
Unknown (16:02):
Yeah, it's where we want to, I was gonna say the
story a little later. But I had,I had seen when I was working in
Sweden, I had been a highperformance coordinator with the
women's team. And I recognizedearly on that I had a very
talented group of individuals,but there was a low confidence
in who they were as, as a team,and I couldn't get my head
(16:26):
around what was the issue? Theywere so incredibly skilled, and
you could even hear from theoutside, they had been told that
forever, they are so talented,they're almost spoiled. So there
wasn't this cultural piece oflike, and I looked at them,
like, Are you okay with this,like, and also like, like,
you're so fragile like this, Ican't compute, you know, super
(16:49):
talented, but unconfident. Itdoesn't make sense. So I kind of
diving into that wholeexperience, I just started to
realize that not only theleadership, the general manager
had said, we need to change thedirection of this boat. But they
also started to say, I could seeinside, like, I needed to listen
really hard with the group ofpeople that I had, why they were
(17:13):
thinking that so that everybodyat least felt heard over the
course of months. So theyweren't sort of ghosting out of
the situation. But I also couldsee that there was a core group
of women on that team, who, whowere ready to push this forward.
And they that core group, Isaid, that's, that's them,
they're going to infecteverything around them. And
(17:34):
slowly as they, you could seethe youngers, you know, rookies
being influenced by the positiveattitude, the working hard,
having fun finding joy and whatthey were doing, you could see
the younger ones lessintimidated and say, I want some
of that. And some of the otherones that had a hard time really
wanting to resisting, sadly, itbecame a choice of either you
(17:58):
get in or you get out, likethat's the choice like at this
point, as a team and is tryingto get successful. There's I
could see the coaching and thegeneral manager said, you know,
we've been at this for a yearand a half. And now we need to
recognize that we have a coregroup, and there's a few other
that are creating some toxicdysfunctions, and we either need
to include them, or they need tohave a conversation, when are
(18:20):
you going to buy in or get out?
That's where we're at?
Zoran Stojkovic (18:23):
Yeah. And so, I mean, is that, that that might
be an example of how you'vehelped shaped team cultures. I'm
curious of other. Maybe anotherexample, or can you tell me a
little bit more about what yourrole was?
Monique Kavelaars (18:37):
My role was, first off, I wasn't calling or
deciding, I was a softer leaderin that I would say I was
leading from the bench, I waslike, I wasn't deciding who got
to play. So I had a relationshipwith coaching staff who gave me
a lot of rope to go and beinvolved with the athletes
beyond just my Exynos of thejob. And I think for a lot of
(19:02):
them, they were living so muchin their head. So there was a
long period of time where Ispent a lot of time just getting
to meet them, hearing theirstory, understanding their
struggle, questioning why theywere believing certain things
about themselves. And you couldsee shoulders drop, when they
were able to feel like they weresharing it and that I was of
some sort and authority, butstill not deciding whether they
(19:26):
were playing or not. But then Ihad an opportunity to, you know,
in the psychology of sport tosort of recognize Hey, guys,
like you get to decide this,you're in charge of this, this
is your team, you know, we arejust all on the side here and
that that helped to change.
Listening was key, also thenstarting to message in what was
the values that they wanted towin and, and having gone from
the first year to like halfwaythrough the tableau of it to
(19:50):
winning the whole Swedishchampionship four or five years
later was just mind boggling tosee what the mind in their
collective culture could create.
Zoran Stojkovic (19:59):
Wow. What sport was it?
Monique Kavelaars (20:01):
It was it's floorball. But in English, in
Sweden, they call it"innebandy". So it was a semi
pro team. It's in in Gothenburg.
So, yeah.
Zoran Stojkovic (20:10):
Sweet floorball. Was that the one with
the with the ring? No, is thatringette?
Monique Kavelaars (20:17):
it's a ball with a whole bunch of holes in
it. And, and the stick itself isactually it's got mesh, there's
holes in it. So you can smackthat ball hard. But it's going
to start slowing down the minuteit goes off. You're like me, and
Sweden, they're incrediblyskilled at this. It's nuts,
nuts,
Zoran Stojkovic (20:33):
Neat. And so your role was actually like
listening to them andquestioning some of their self
doubt?
Monique Kavelaars (20:43):
yeah, part of that. And then also collectively
doing a lot of team engagementexercises, where I was trying to
do little Mic drop moments,like, you know, you can destroy
something easily. But it's sohard to build something. So
which one are you going to be apart of. So I did a lot of group
activities, which was and Itried to make it as fun training
(21:06):
hard is hard. And just made itfun and engaging, where they
could laugh and enjoy it, butalso lay there and go, holy cow,
we've just trashed ourselves,and we're getting stronger. Like
they could believe like, I amtougher than everybody else out
there. So that belief also solistening, but also collectively
doing a lot of team buildingactivities to sort of get them
(21:27):
to buy into each other
Zoran Stojkovic (21:29):
team building activities have gotten a bad rep
for...you know, these teams willjust go and do these, just these
team building activities and nothave some of these authentic and
vulnerable conversations and notactually live in alignment with
the values and know what thevalues are. And, and they'll
think that that's it, or they'llput down some values on a sheet
(21:50):
and put it up on a wall in theoffice and be like, yeah,
that's, that's it. We've workedon Team culture. And now we can
go back to being what we werebefore.
Monique Kavelaars (21:58):
It's hard I get it. It's like, it's hard.
It's like that's not going to doit. It's not.
Zoran Stojkovic (22:04):
is there one that you found to be really
potent and powerful?
Monique Kavelaars (22:08):
Um, I do with teams, it sometimes can be very
heavy, where I am brought in todo a program where we look at
the cohesiveness of a team and Ido a survey, basically asking
everybody, do you trust eachother? Like, do you apologize to
each other? And they had to takeit from their perspective of
(22:31):
what their team was, when youargue is, are people holding
grudges? Is there gossip? areyou sharing information? Do you
withhold information frompeople, so really like sticky
stuff? So I collect that data,and then I create a program like
a come to Jesus moment, like,Alright, let's talk about this.
And sometimes it can be veryuncomfortable, I try to have a
(22:53):
good sense of humor about it, Iusually understand some context,
what's going on in the room. Andwhen I get brought into those
situations, it's often becauseleadership is just like, I'm
trying everything here. I don'tknow what it is. And sadly,
sometimes I feel like I am thekiss of death. Because often
it's that one or two individualsthat have made it really hard
for the entire team. And this issort of like, let's have a
(23:15):
conversation about it. Andsometimes that individuals with
they may not mean it, they'rejust an accidental mess maker.
They are not Oh, I had no ideaor an awareness of what
individual preferences are forindividuals. So somebody may
Hey, I do this, because this isjust my personality. Where and
(23:36):
when you do this, did it I'msensing. It's personal. Like
it's sort of like, let's cleanthe air here. So that that's one
thing that I feel even on thesports team, we've done where we
had, you know, a room, let's getit out. Let's talk about it.
It's uncomfortable, though.
Especially when sometime we'rehumans, you know, we sometimes
we we all have bad behavior.
(23:57):
unavoidable.
Zoran Stojkovic (23:58):
Yeah. And that uncomfortableness leads to
growth. Yep. So if that if thatdoesn't happen, if we don't ask
those questions. I mean, I guesssometimes going in, a leader may
not want to open a certain canof worms. So just just being you
know.
Unknown (24:18):
And sometimes I go, Oh, my gosh, is heavy. But I also
not a person, I'm veryimpatient, where I say, Hey, you
know, here's the choice. We'reat the crossroads. I'm not
sitting here. I want tosometimes an individual requires
coaching, but I'm thinking ofthe team's performance. And I
said, granted, I get it, but youhave to recognize there's
(24:38):
something here that's justpulling everybody down. So get
some help. But there's also asense of like, do you even see
what's happening and it may notbe one individual it may be just
habits and patterns of howpeople are doing things. You
know, not holding each otheraccountable and not directing
you know, or thinking of yourindividual result rather than
(24:59):
the collective risk. You knowhow I you know, I scored the
goal, but we still lost but lookat me I still scored.
Zoran Stojkovic (25:06):
Yeah, it's it's so important to have that team
first mindset. That's I thinkany any team that I've been on
or lead? That's that's the thingthat really speaks to me when
people are very focused onthemselves. And that that
example would would definitelythat would irked me that was
that was a teammate.
Monique Kavelaars (25:26):
Yeah, no.
Well, I just watched a great TVseries on Apple TV. It's called
Ted Lasso, I think you'd likeit. It's a soccer player. It's
just hilarious, funny. But thereis that dynamics going on on the
team. There's this rock star ofa player who does not hide his
opinion. It's exaggerated, it'sTV. But it's interesting to see
everybody's role is important,even if it doesn't score the
(25:48):
goal. And sometimes if we have aculture that doesn't appreciate
that, or doesn't, you know, welive in a culture where there's
such a glorified exposure ofeveryone's best day and what
have you. Sometimes it's like,no, there's other things here at
play. I know that's a bitdeeper, but that's a big part of
it, too. For me.
Zoran Stojkovic (26:07):
Yeah, it is.
And you've already touched upona couple of toxic behaviors. I
mean, those can really rip aparta culture and a team and can
really, if those cracks, thoselittle cracks can turn into into
bigger cracks and lead to to adownfall of a team essentially,
like what what have you found tobe some of the top toxic
behaviors and for Team culture?
(26:31):
And how have you dealt withthem? Or how have you advised
leaders to deal with them?
Monique Kavelaars (26:34):
Okay. So when I've done assessments within
organizations, we get a littlebit of a rundown on toxic
behaviors, like gossip, grudges,not sharing information, not
trusting team fates, followthrough silos, what have you.
And once we I think, like anyconscious behavior, if it's at
least identified in the room,first and foremost, it lose a
(26:57):
lot of its power, just becauseit's right there. So and when
there's a collectiveunderstanding of that is not
acceptable. There's years whofirst stopped a step of how to
actually improve upon it, oftenit can happen where the person's
intentions are, you know, theydon't need to do it. So there's
a coaching element a discussion.
If you're looking at an a sportsteam, I can, I can recognize
(27:20):
that it's hard, because theystill, you know, I've seen it
where someone's behavior is sopoor, but they are the all star
player on the team. And soyou're like, Oh, my gosh, we
have to accommodate this. And ittakes a lot of bravery for
leadership to to make a choiceof what's most important, and I,
I wouldn't welcome standing inthose shoes, because it's a it's
(27:42):
a hard one, when you have tomake that choice. So I would say
those toxic behaviors, havingidentifying it would be key,
coaching the individual whenthey do it, and trying to
understand what where they'remissing it. And if it gets to a
point where they're still like aneglect or an indifference to
it, there's got to be a come toJesus moment of like, Hey,
(28:04):
listen, this is, this is whatwe're valuing. And this is what
you're not giving. So you haveto make a choice, or we'll make
it for you.
Zoran Stojkovic (28:12):
Yeah, and, and if somebody you saying, if
somebody violates the behavior,after being given a chance to
change it, being coached on it,it's that it's really that
choice of if you don't changesomething, you're, you're gone.
Even if they're a star player?
Monique Kavelaars (28:28):
You see I find that hard I find in a
sports team, it's really hard.
Sometimes we have, you want toaccommodate it, and you want to
understand it and sometimes inthe moment and heat of
competition, I'm stepping in, incorporate and in sport, you
know, I myself in high stress insituations have lost my mind.
And being a person to walk inthe room and apologize after the
(28:52):
fact is so vital. So to coachthat individual, if that's what
they're doing. also recognizingmaybe they need something this
is more getting in thepsychology of it, maybe they
need something to perform thatwe need to give them a space
for. So there's a lot morecomplexity there within an
organization. I have been inseveral I think there were three
or four teams last year wherewe've done a program about you
(29:14):
know, cohesiveness and whatbehaviors we would to engage and
then a month later that personthat was really struggling or
not really adding value wasasked to leave and you could see
the rest of the team just okay,I think I you know, they they
almost look to leadership, likeare you going to accept this is
this is this gonna be okay?
(29:36):
Because if it is, then I youstart losing the good people,
because they're like, I'm out. Idon't want to do this. So.
Zoran Stojkovic (29:43):
Yeah, so you're you're saying that, yeah,
that's, that's massive, justactually following through on it
even though it's it's hard andthe star performer is
contributing a lot but takingaway in other ways and and i
think that you know, 100 On ateam, there's no, there's no
neutral. Like I think there'sthere's either you have a
(30:05):
negative contribution orpositive contribution. And if
you're if you're notcontributing anything that may
as well be negativecontribution. And if somebody is
taking away, even though they'reon paper, they're doing great
results, great stats, greatsales, whatever it is, maybe
they got to go in, the team'sgonna perform better, as you
said, their shoulders are gonnaget relaxed. And
Monique Kavelaars (30:27):
well, if you're taking 10, or 20%, out of
your teammates performance basedupon your own behavior, and you
go around the room 10% here, 10%here, 10%, you don't even have
one person in the room anymore.
So you're you're playing, youknow, 10 men out of 11.
Zoran Stojkovic (30:44):
Wait, what do you mean by that?
Monique Kavelaars (30:45):
Well, if you're playing a soccer game,
and somebody, you're going toget a red card, somebody's going
to have to walk off. But ifeverybody is just accommodating
someone's poor behavior, andthey're showing up less of
themselves based upon it, andthat's 10% of you and 10% of me,
I'm leaning out, all of asudden, you got 10 people in the
room, and you got 100%, you gotsome you have, you're missing an
(31:07):
entire player.
Zoran Stojkovic (31:09):
Yeah, even though you have all the players,
you're still missing the entireplayer, because somebody is
having a terrible influence.
Monique Kavelaars (31:15):
You know, the math is there, you'd lost. You
got 100 now and I'm like, there,there's, you're missing a lot in
what the whole team as a wholecould be.
Zoran Stojkovic (31:24):
I like that.
Monique Kavelaars (31:25):
It's not something...And I say this in
the long game. Like in the shortgame, we have, you know, moments
where we mess up and we have youbut we correct and we self
correct or the team helps us or,but if we can see a pattern. And
you all of a sudden see peoplenot being able to be the best
that they can it's like okay,wait a minute, I'm, I'm losing
players now.
Zoran Stojkovic (31:46):
Yeah. And and the diminishers. We talked about
where they take away or makeeverybody perform worse. There's
there's the multipliers who mayraise models, right? They may
raise people's and that's thepeople you want on your team?
Monique Kavelaars (32:00):
Absolutely.
Zoran Stojkovic (32:01):
And maybe they're not the star performer.
And maybe they're in theshadows. But for some, for
whatever reason, they're thelifeblood, they're within the
DNA of the team. They live thevalues of the team.
Monique Kavelaars (32:14):
Absolutely. I think you and I spoke a little
earlier about Simon Sinek. Andhe has this whole chart. And he
was talking about competence.
Like he was looking at themilitary. And he had this thing
where he was looking at Marines.
And he said, you know, ifcapability to pick people knit,
you know, teams, seal six, andhe said, you know, competence,
(32:35):
and trust on the diagram. And soobviously, you want somebody
who's high trust, highcompetence. However, if you have
somebody who's on low trust, buthigh competence, they're toxic
to the environment. And they'renot somebody you want on your
team. But if you take someone inrelation to who's maybe a little
less competent, but really highon trust, you take that person
(32:58):
every day, because they're goingto make everybody better. And I
and I think the expression theguys in the Marine had said, how
they just said it was like, do Itrust you with my life? But I do
I trust you with my money and mywife?
Zoran Stojkovic (33:12):
That's a good one.
Monique Kavelaars (33:14):
So they were pretty hardcore of like, if you
want in our crew, this is whatthis is the family we're in, you
know, you gotta be all of that.
Zoran Stojkovic (33:21):
Competence and trust. And competence doesn't
have the bigger premium trust isthe premium is on trust.
Monique Kavelaars (33:28):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Zoran Stojkovic (33:30):
Wow. We've talked a bunch about cultures,
culture, but how can leadersmeasure and analyze team
culture? It's sometimes veryfluffy and fairy and, and it's
hard to hard to really see. Butwhat are ways that are tools
that people can use?
Monique Kavelaars (33:47):
in sports teams, you're winning, and
you're getting people wanting tobe on the team. And people are
having fun, and even whenthey're losing, they still want
to work hard at it. So there's alittle measurement there
internally isn't organizations,you're going to see it in
turnover, people are going tolean out, they're not going to
want and you're going to say whyare we looking for people,
there's not a growth, you don'tsee any growth, there's turnover
(34:09):
occurring. And you can see alack of engagement, quality of
work lessons. And, you know, youyou see good people leave, like
those are those are, that'sactually probably already too
late. Like you've let thingsslide so long, that it's gotten
that bad. So if you're reallynot paying attention, that's
(34:31):
your measurement. But I think asan organization that is trying
to thrive, I think it'simportant to tap into, you know,
needs assessments within anorganization really collectively
asking and developing peoplelike managers in employees, so
that they see that you valuethem not only for the with the
work they do for you, but and intheir own career path. That's a
(34:54):
value that I think everybodywants to feel universally so if
you want to measure it, I thinkwhen You see people investing in
that there's an indication thatthey're in for the long game to
Zoran Stojkovic (35:06):
The turnover.
Monique Kavelaars (35:07):
the turnover, you know, the growth is not
happening, you're losing goodpeople. And also your
reputation. Like sometimes it'slike ask your, you know,
sometimes I've heard people canyou left the organization? Can
you call them find out why. Andsometimes this this current
state is people are looking fornew opportunities and what have
(35:29):
you. So it has nothing personal,they like the job, they just
wanted a different experience.
But often, if you look at a twoyear period, or one year period,
even less than that, and you cansay, Why, what's happening, I
need to do it. So we do it thatthe, you know, cohesion test
where we assess how everybodyfeels on trust, conflict,
commitment, accountability andresults. We have a conversation,
(35:49):
so they get a real temperaturegauge. And then we do it again
in three months to see ifthere's a progress or
improvement because they feellike hey, we're getting better.
Zoran Stojkovic (35:59):
That's massive.
And with the, with the turnover,it's, it's it really is about
potentially not doing the exitinterviews when people leave,
but doing an entry entryinterview. When people come in,
hey, what's gonna make youthrive in this job? drives you
crazy? What can we do to supportyou so that you're doing your
best work? And, you know,understanding the person? I
(36:22):
think I think that's massive.
Monique Kavelaars (36:25):
Yeah, it's like an operations manual.
Here's my, here's my, who I am.
And here's who we are. Let'smake sure we understand each
other. And I think that's key.
Because I think, you know, Icould segue, but I mean,
speaking in a very low context,like, let's not complicate it,
let's not speak in code here.
Let's make it transparentlyobvious to everyone who you are
(36:47):
what you need, where's yourgrowth? We're invested in you,
this is what we value, like,make it no secret. You know, I
think it's your rallying cry,like, make it part of what you
value.
Zoran Stojkovic (36:59):
Yeah, you're saying no secret. So that means
transparency.
Monique Kavelaars (37:03):
transparency, or sometimes when I say secret,
it's not done intentionally, butspend some effort on defining
it. So when people come in, theyknow don't make it their job, to
figure it out. You know, and,and also, when you when you have
it, live it, you know, don't sayit, do it, you know, that's
another big step. That's huge.
Zoran Stojkovic (37:25):
The clarity, the clarity of how you function
as a company, how you functionas a manager, or leader in a
company, and communicating thatand maybe even communicating
that in the interviews so thatpeople can see if it's a good
fit.
Monique Kavelaars (37:37):
Yeah, yeah, I've heard that too. I saw I
heard an interview where theywere really trying to establish
if this person was, you know,really a fit for the
organization, because theyrecognize they had an incredible
culture, and they were reallynot wanting to bring anybody in
that would mess that up. And sothey were trying to interview
people, okay, let's just go,let's go across the street, and
(37:58):
we're gonna grab some lunch, andthey wanted to just see how they
interacted with the waitstaff orthe person who was cleaning the
table, or hearing their story ina very casual setting. So they
could get indications like, No,we really are these, this is
what we our culture is and andyou can say really good things
(38:18):
in an interview. But let's takeyou out of an uncut, you know,
unusual situation. So we canreally tap into this, who are
you? Like, are you going to fitin here? Or I've heard
organizations where they'll say,we'll hire you. And if it's not
a fit, we'll give you $5,000 toleave
Zoran Stojkovic (38:35):
Zappos?
Monique Kavelaars (38:36):
Yep. That's, there you go. Leave. If it's
not, you know, we'll pay you togo it's all good.
Zoran Stojkovic (38:41):
Some people take it and I think, I think in
terms of Yeah, the restaurantpieces is really good because
then you can actually seewhether this is a person you can
actually go to lunch with whenthey work there, which is
important as as a person you cangrab a coffee with and and talk
to not just about work, which iswhich is really important.
Monique Kavelaars (38:59):
I had heard them when Tina Fey was starting
her TV series on 30 rock, shewas trying to develop or bring
in writers and she would talk toMichael Lauren from Saturday
Night Live and say, you know,what, what words of wisdom Do
you have when I hire my team?
And he said, try to think of whoyou want to see at three in the
morning in the hallway. And ifyou're in the interview and
(39:22):
think that this person willannoy you at two or three in the
morning, then don't hire them.
Because that's what you'll haveto see at 2 or 3 in the morning
is them in the hallway.
Zoran Stojkovic (39:34):
That's really good. Yeah, that's solid. Yeah.
Monique, what does cultivatingyour culture mean to you? What
does that phrase mean to you?
Monique Kavelaars (39:43):
Um, cultivating your culture is
making it a priority. It's not amission statement. It's not a
value. It's an every daypriority. It's depending on what
your values are. And I thinkcollectively I think cultivating
a culture here is inclusion andconnection and engagement,
(40:07):
trying to get people to alignand see themselves wanting to
contribute. But cultivating itis what it means to me. It's not
something that you just talkabout, it's something you have
to do every day, as anorganization, as a sports team,
and the reward on the other sideof it is so huge, so huge.
Zoran Stojkovic (40:25):
So you're saying what I'm hearing you say
is it's something you you'recultivating and creating
everyday? It's an everydaypriority. It's connection,
engagement, inclusion ofeverybody.
Monique Kavelaars (40:37):
Yeah. Yeah.
Zoran Stojkovic (40:40):
Neat. And is there, I know, you've mentioned
some really great tools andsuggestions. But is there one
practical tool that leaders canuse tomorrow to cultivate the
culture of their team?
Monique Kavelaars (40:54):
I love the five Behaviors of a cohesive
team by Patrick lencioni. It's areally quick, easy read of a
book. And looking at behaviorswithin a team, a small team of
like eight to 10 people. Theyalso have tools, and we use this
tool in our organization wherewe tap into how we take a
(41:15):
temperature of the team. And ithelps leadership. So that tool I
think, is important,particularly of if they don't
feel unnecessarily skilled onhaving conversations about trust
or conflict, it doesn't have tobe heavy lifting, but it needs
to be, you know, identified andseen. So I think that's a great
tool. There's so much stuff outthere. I recently was just
(41:39):
reading a book, it doesn'treally have to do with company
culture. But I found it veryinteresting. It's called culture
map by Aaron Meyers. And ittalks about global cultures. But
I find it interesting about someof the eight values of how
people, when you look at yourown individual culture as an
organization, you could takethose eight values that she
describes and says, okay, wheredo we sit on the pendulum? how,
(42:02):
you know, when we makedecisions, how do we do it? When
we lead? How do we how do wedevelop trust? Is it task based?
Or is it relationship based,like, it's a really great
definer you could kind ofscratch your head about so I
think that's a really good tool
Zoran Stojkovic (42:16):
Neat. And those are some of my next question was
going to be some some booksuggestions on culture. And
you've already mentioned thefive Behaviors of a cohesive
team and the culture map. Isthere another book or resource
that you think would be good totap into?
Monique Kavelaars (42:30):
different cultures? You know, I really I
we read a while ago is a greatbook by Daniel Coyle, and it's
called Culture Code. It's agreat one he's also got what's
the other one? He has
Zoran Stojkovic (42:41):
Talent code.
Monique Kavelaars (42:42):
talent code, right? So the talent code first
culture Cody's got it now. I seethere's there's so many good
books that I have. So atomichabits, but that's more like
self development. But yetculture I think culture code,
five Behaviors of a cohesiveteam, a lot of Patrick lencioni,
he's all of his book series arereally based upon trying to draw
(43:03):
upon the collective intelligenceof a team.
Zoran Stojkovic (43:06):
Nice. Those are really good suggestions I've
read. I've read the culturecode, atomic habits. And I've
not read the five Behaviors of acohesive team, so I'll have to
get them.
Monique Kavelaars (43:16):
Oh it's good.
It's an easy read. It's a fable.
It's a really easy read.
Zoran Stojkovic (43:20):
I'll check that out. Tell me about cover Lars
consulting. Am I pronouncingthat okay?
Unknown (43:26):
right. That's good.
It's good. I will I started, Istart my own consulting firm
during a pandemic. So my timingis fantastic. No, I had always
been wanting to kind of branchoff on my own. So I still work
with the gentleman I had beenwith in the spring. But I've
started more, starting myconsulting firm only because I
really enjoy the intentionaround organizations seeking to
(43:48):
improve their teams, theirpeople, not only beyond who they
are as people, but as a team.
But then also I really want toget into like, how do we
actually make better decisionstogether, find solutions, you
know, make decisions, findsolutions, identify problems and
how we're doing it in a reallyquick and, you know, result
(44:11):
focused format. So I'm kind oftinkering around, packaging, all
that. So that's what, a fewmonths ago.
Zoran Stojkovic (44:19):
So we're looking at team culture and and
cohesiveness, but also systemsand processes for peak
creativity and innovation?
Monique Kavelaars (44:27):
Absolutely design thinking design sprints.
And then also some personalassessment leadership tools that
we use to just sort of helpmanagers lead people better.
Zoran Stojkovic (44:37):
So cool. That's exciting. And like, What are you
up to right now? And where canpeople find you? Where can
people connect with you?
Monique Kavelaars (44:44):
my website and I'm on LinkedIn, and right
now I'm chatting with you. Andso a lot of the opportunities
that I get like this to be ableto speak with people so I tried
to keep people who are followingme on Instagram or LinkedIn to
sort of see some of theconversations we're having
and...
Yeah, some of the projects I'mdoing and yeah, gonna be in
Tokyo this summer. So with as anathlete, mentor, so I'm sort of
(45:07):
working a lot with them too,which is, is sort of an off
branch of things. So yeah.
Zoran Stojkovic (45:12):
Cool. Awesome.
Well, hey, thanks so much fortaking the time to, to speak to
me and to share and and youknow, your insights. And there's
a lot of gems in here. And I'mreally, I think people are
really going to enjoy thisepisode.
Monique Kavelaars (45:26):
Great. Thank Well, thank you for having me.
Zoran Stojkovic (45:28):
Yeah.
Monique Kavelaars (45:29):
Good luck to you!
Zoran Stojkovic (45:30):
We'll do this again sometime. Thank you.
Hey, thanks for tuning in tocultivate your culture. Rate and
reviewer podcast on iTunes. Anywebsites and resources mentioned
in the podcast as well as theguests information can be found
on the show www.kizo.ca/podcast.
Here's a sneak peek of what'scoming up in our episode next
(45:54):
week.
Jennifer Wallinga (46:01):
To the coach ones who had to make a very
difficult decision to cut areally a really effective player
with a very high performanceplayer, but toxic and completely
counter to a lot of the culturalvalues that the team has
established together, justresisting.
I think the best starting place is
recognizing the behaviors thatare the right. Right? What are
the rules of engagement? Whatare the rights to play? So, I,
you know, we can look atdecision making and hierarchy
and you know how peoplecommunicate, but those can all
be boiled down into behaviors ofhow we actually what's expected
(00:20):
of us.
Zoran Stojkovic (00:24):
Hello, I'm your host, Zoran Stojkovic, and
welcome to Cultivate yourCulture. This podcast we'll be
discussing how leaders can buildconnected, high-performing teams
and business and sport usingactionable tools, evidence based
systems and simple processes.
Today on the show, we haveMonique Kavelaars. Monique is a
(00:47):
retired Olympic fencer,entrepreneur and business
facilitator and trainer. She hasbeen working with teams to
create cultural shifts inpursuit of high performance for
over 15 years. Building on herexperience as a Canadian
Olympian Monique guides teams tolearn about what it takes to be
an effective team while focusedon the results. Returning to
(01:10):
Canada. Monique works as aconsultant bringing her talents
as a motivating team memberoffering her expertise on facing
challenges, problem solving andcollaborative decisions,
decision making towards teamgoals. And she'll also be
working with the CanadianOlympic team as an athlete
mentor in the 2021 Olympics nextsummer. We're hoping those
(01:32):
Olympics happen when you Welcometo the show.
Monique Kavelaars (01:34):
Thank you so much. It's weird to say 2021 I'm
like "What, when did that didthat happen?" 2020 has been a
blur.
Zoran Stojkovic (01:42):
It is it is it's it's it's an unprecedented
time with what the Olympicsbeing pushed back and pressure
all sorts of competitionscanceled, and it's gonna be
interesting to see how it looks.
And it's definitely a challengefor athletes and coaches and
Federations as well.
Monique Kavelaars (01:55):
And the fans like I don't know how he felt.
But once everything went silent,it was like sitting on the sofa
in the evening, like, what arewe going to watch? Like, what
are we going to? How are wegoing to entertain herself?
There was no NBA, Major LeagueBaseball, nothing, nothing. Yes,
it's very strange, very strange,but I'm glad it's back.
Zoran Stojkovic (02:14):
Yeah, definitely, I can't imagine the
stress of having to readjust ayearly training plan to not have
the Olympics, essentially thisyear and, and potentially not
having it in 2021.
Monique Kavelaars (02:27):
And I know a few athletes who were preparing,
and I knew that they weredifferent stages of their
career. So for some, it even waslike, Oh, this was gonna be my
last one, I was gonna start afamily, I get to hang around or
for some injured and having theopportunity to say, hey, there's
a window here that I can kind ofbounce back. And so, you know,
(02:48):
it's just life though. Right? Sogo with it. So.
Zoran Stojkovic (02:52):
It is it is. So teams. I mean, when we think of
a team culture, we love teams.
Everybody's part of a team, weboth work with teams on helping
them be the best versions ofthemselves. And team culture is
a word that gets thrown outquite a bit, but they're
sometimes hard to pin down whatit actually means. So what is
how do you define team cultureMonique?
Monique Kavelaars (03:16):
Um, I kind of defined it, it's it has a lot of
legs to it. So I would say it'slike a word that is like a way
of life for a group? How are wegoing to actually create meaning
within the group or team thatwe're in? What's our values,
how, what are our attitudetowards what we're doing
collectively. And it's a patternin that kind of interaction. And
(03:42):
sometimes if not being observedor managed or least attended to,
a pattern can change, like anyhabit. So it can go up and down,
there's a real has to be a realconscious choice of what it is,
collectively, of what it isimportant for the group to
function and, and how and how weall can contribute. So it's a
(04:04):
it's a, it has two aspects, one,the individual input of what you
are personally and yourpreference and how you step in
with your own history. And, youknow, psychologically how we
have is our preference, even howwe were raised, it sort of
impacts how we impact ourculture around us. And also,
just when you walk into a team,I think we all can recognize,
(04:25):
you know, it, the first job orthe first sports team, you walk
into the new person and youryour spidey senses are up
because you're really trying toconnect to the, to the group and
understand this unspokenlanguage of how we're going to
be with each other. So that is,in my mind how culture is in if
(04:45):
we looked at the world stage,you know, you could recognize so
many different cultures in Italyor in France or in Sweden or
China. So the subtle messages ofhow we actually interact and the
way we interact with each otheras a pattern. That's how I look
at it.
Zoran Stojkovic (04:59):
Ineresting. So the patterns of interacting with
each other were taught, youmentioned attitude, talking
about this this way of life thisway of being both individually
and as, as as part of a group.
And so why, then why is itimportant to cultivate the
culture of a business or sportsteam? I mean, it's, it's great,
but why should companies andteams be investing resources
(05:22):
into that?
Monique Kavelaars (05:24):
You know, it's a great question, because
sometimes it's like, it'suncertain. It's an unwritten
rule. I can only I can describeit in in a little story. There's
the story that we talked aboutculture where these two young
fish are swimming in the water.
And this old fish is swimming inthe opposite direction. And the
old fish says to the two youngfish, Hey, boys, how's the
water, and they kind of look ateach other strange, and they
(05:47):
swim away. And then finally, onefish says to the other fish,
what's water? Whether we like itor not, we're all in water, in
our families, in ourcommunities, in our
organizations, it's where wefeel connected. It's where we
consciously or unconsciouslydecide to stay and lean in or
lean out. So when you ask thequestion, why is it important?
(06:11):
First off, it brings us meaningand connection. Secondly, it
awful offers an organizationalroutine, who is rallying around
the goal together to find likeminded individuals who will buy
in to the craziness that's goingto happen when you when you sign
up, whether it's an organizationor sports team, or even marrying
(06:33):
into a family, you you sort ofsee like, Okay, what is how is
this all about, it's importantto cultivate because we are
connected, and that's how wekind of unconsciously sort of
moving into areas and why don'twe lean into others? It's
because we don't fit in andthat's culture. In my mind.
Zoran Stojkovic (06:57):
When you talked about the fish I just pictured
Nemo swimming with another fish.
Monique Kavelaars (07:02):
And Dory not remembering a second later.
Zoran Stojkovic (07:04):
Dory "Wait, what we're in water?" Yeah, no,
that's, I think that's, that's abeautiful way to put it because
teams have a culture regardlessof whether they work on it, or
think about it or not. And, and,and sometimes people lean in, or
they lean out and disengage. Andyou're saying it's important
because we're all connected. Andultimately, by by being
(07:28):
connected, and by, bycultivating a culture, teams
will perform better.
Monique Kavelaars (07:35):
They will.
And I guess the question is,what you want out of your team,
and I being a very, you know,results focused person, I'm
going to walk in going, Okay,where's the finish line? Like?
How are we going to get there?
What's the goal? And how can Ican contribute. So I speak in
(07:57):
two lanes. When I think aboutsport, though, it's it's
different. Because we can onlyengage at that high level if I
think in high performance sportfor so long. And there's an
awareness of knowingparticularly as an athlete, if
you're working on the Olympiclevel, there's a four year
quadrennial that you're kind ofworking and you're either an
athlete focused on your own,like, let's say you're a diver,
(08:18):
you have a team, but yourindividual performance, but your
team around you, you couldn'teven have diving where you're in
synchronized diving or, or inthe sport that I did in fencing,
you know, my performanceindividually impacted the
everybody. And, and I washanding it off to them, or they
would hand it off to me, likegood luck go. Or there's that
(08:38):
invasion kind of sport teamwhere you're collectively
touching each other abasketball, but you know, soccer
where you're you don't getanywhere unless it's a seamless
situation. So it's importantbecause if we're all trying to
achieve something together, weall have to know. First off what
we're trying to achieve. And ifwe want good people on the bus
(09:00):
sort of thing, we need to makesure that they recognize who we
are, and we want them in ratherthan you guys are all crazy, and
I'm stepping off.
That's that's the biggest pointfor me why it's important. I've
seen teams succeed, though, Ishould say, I have seen teams
succeed with toxic culture, andit's by sheer dumb luck. And
(09:24):
there's nothing sustainable init. Like it's a one off. And
usually the the winds are veryindividualistic, and nobody
really feels good about it. SoI'm not suggesting it's the only
way to win because I have seenit go another way. But it is,
you know, it has greatermeaning. I think when there's a
culture that everyone reallywants to be a part of.
Zoran Stojkovic (09:46):
Okay, so you're you're thinking it's not
necessary to have a greatculture to win. But that's only
that winning and that highperformance is only going to
happen like once.
Monique Kavelaars (09:59):
I think it's depends on the game you're
playing. If it's the long game,it's not going to work. If
you're looking at anorganization long game, you're
going to see turnover, you'regoing to see people leave,
you're going to see top talentleave.
And you're going to be spendinga lot of energy trying to stay
afloat. In a sports team, youknow, it's a very tangible
blackline, there can be a winand a loss. And maybe in the
(10:21):
short term, you're going to havesome gains. But I can't see and
I've never seen long term, thelong game of a success, I don't
even want to put in a number oftime years on it, there's just
nothing sustainable, becausesooner or later, whatever that
toxicity is, it can be sheerdumb luck, but that, that one
(10:42):
off isn't a true representationof what if you if you took a
statistical you know, you know,what has a greater reward
system, it's going to be thehealthy culture that that is
cultivated around the valuesthat you have, and inclusivity
and the connection that youcreate.
Zoran Stojkovic (11:00):
Oh, for sure.
And I mean, let's say somebody'sbought into this, we've defined
team culture, somebody boughtinto why it's important. How can
it be cultivated?
Monique Kavelaars (11:10):
Yes, it's, um, I think the best starting
place is recognizing thebehaviors that are the right,
like, what are the rules ofengagement? What are the rights
to play, so I, you know, we canlook at decision making and
hierarchy, and you know, howpeople communicate, but those
can all be boiled down intobehaviors of how we actually
(11:31):
what's expected of us. I hadrecently posted something that I
thought was fun, I'd seen theNorwegian ski team during the
Olympics in Korea had had threesimple rules to their culture,
which was no jerks allowed,basically be humble. And anyone
can sit anywhere, meaning if youhad one the day before or lost,
(11:52):
it doesn't matter, you don't getextra privileges, we're all
equal. And Friday night, taconight, basically, that's on the
road, even though we're sick ofeach other every night, every
Friday on the road we eattogether. So cultures don't have
to be intensive, but thebehavior is around creating
connection. And, you know,having trust, you know, knowing
that no jerks allowed tells melike there is a there's a
(12:16):
consequence to how you'reinteracting. There's more things
like how do we perform, like, wewant to work hard. But we have
also had cultures where peoplecan work really hard and knock
people over to a point wherethere's work the hard work hard,
and there's a trail of deadbodies of sorts behind them. And
we call them the skillfulpolitician because they're
(12:38):
working hard. They're verysocially smart, but they're not
very humble. And they're notreally engaging everybody.
They're not seeing, you know,they're not thinking less of
themselves. They're, you know,they, what's the expression,
being humble is not thinkingless of yourself, it's thinking
of yourself less. They're notthinking of the entire team. So
that's, that's key. So it's astarting point is just the
(13:01):
behaviors to answer yourquestion, communication. Trust
being the biggest one, beingable to sort of have everybody
understand that there's aliability trust doesn't mean,
you're my best friend, it justmeans I can trust that, you
know, if we get it when it getshard, and it will, you've got my
back, we both know what we'regoing to do. And I'm going to
(13:22):
trust that you're going to doeverything you can to do it. And
there's a vulnerability when yousay, I can't do it, can you help
me? You know what you think, oryou're better than that than me?
that that's true vulnerabilityof saying, help me out like I'm
struggling here. And knowingthat you can do that as a team
or as an organization is key.
Because our ego does get in theway.
Zoran Stojkovic (13:44):
Yeah, yeah, it definitely does. And what a
great example by the Norwegianteam of sharing the meal
together, where where it's, it'sreally not about the sport, you
just getting to know each otherand bonding off the ski slopes.
Anyone could sit anywhere. Sothere's, there's no rookies and
veterans, and then that kind ofthing. And then the no jerk
(14:04):
rule, which other like the AllBlacks have have a similar
philosophy? Oh, yeah. For thatone, except they call it they
call a little bit different.
Yeah, and I mean, Monique,you're saying it's it's
important to have these? Whatare the rules of play what's
expected of us, but who has tobe in those conversations to get
that going? I mean, is it theleadership group? Is it the head
(14:26):
coach is the GM? Is it in abusiness? Is it the managers?
Monique Kavelaars (14:32):
I think, sadly, it not. Sadly, this is
just the truth. I think we are abit of a hierarchical culture.
Not as high as some cultures,but realistically as human
beings. We, you know, we grew upwith parents, they weren't
charged. They told us how thingswere. So I can't help but
recognize that the leadershiphas a big part, to establish
(14:54):
what is going what's going towork as a coach. They set the
tone. I remember it In Sweden, Iused to live there. And I
remember hearing a coach on thenational team, or at least he
was he was coaching one of theheight, like the sort of NHL of
Sweden. And he had some simplerules, which was, he established
you work hard every day, be agood teammate, be curious, and
(15:19):
compete every day. So though, hewould do that, and you could see
that, it wasn't just words, hedemanded it all the time. But
what you also started torecognize and see is that
leaders on the team started totake that on there. You know,
when when you have your peergroup, or, you know, your coach
may be saying that, but whenyour teammate is doing it every
(15:40):
day, and then looks at you, andyou're like, Hey, this is what
we're doing here. And it's mucheasier for that person to stand
in that place and demand that oftheir teammate or their
colleague when it's comingstraight from the top. Right.
Zoran Stojkovic (15:53):
So you saying it's, it's a lot more powerful
when teammates and colleaguespolice that and not absolute
person that's in charge?
Unknown (16:02):
Yeah, it's where we want to, I was gonna say the
story a little later. But I had,I had seen when I was working in
Sweden, I had been a highperformance coordinator with the
women's team. And I recognizedearly on that I had a very
talented group of individuals,but there was a low confidence
in who they were as, as a team,and I couldn't get my head
(16:26):
around what was the issue? Theywere so incredibly skilled, and
you could even hear from theoutside, they had been told that
forever, they are so talented,they're almost spoiled. So there
wasn't this cultural piece oflike, and I looked at them,
like, Are you okay with this,like, and also like, like,
you're so fragile like this, Ican't compute, you know, super
(16:49):
talented, but unconfident. Itdoesn't make sense. So I kind of
diving into that wholeexperience, I just started to
realize that not only theleadership, the general manager
had said, we need to change thedirection of this boat. But they
also started to say, I could seeinside, like, I needed to listen
really hard with the group ofpeople that I had, why they were
(17:13):
thinking that so that everybodyat least felt heard over the
course of months. So theyweren't sort of ghosting out of
the situation. But I also couldsee that there was a core group
of women on that team, who, whowere ready to push this forward.
And they that core group, Isaid, that's, that's them,
they're going to infecteverything around them. And
(17:34):
slowly as they, you could seethe youngers, you know, rookies
being influenced by the positiveattitude, the working hard,
having fun finding joy and whatthey were doing, you could see
the younger ones lessintimidated and say, I want some
of that. And some of the otherones that had a hard time really
wanting to resisting, sadly, itbecame a choice of either you
(17:58):
get in or you get out, likethat's the choice like at this
point, as a team and is tryingto get successful. There's I
could see the coaching and thegeneral manager said, you know,
we've been at this for a yearand a half. And now we need to
recognize that we have a coregroup, and there's a few other
that are creating some toxicdysfunctions, and we either need
to include them, or they need tohave a conversation, when are
(18:20):
you going to buy in or get out?
That's where we're at?
Zoran Stojkovic (18:23):
Yeah. And so, I mean, is that, that that might
be an example of how you'vehelped shaped team cultures. I'm
curious of other. Maybe anotherexample, or can you tell me a
little bit more about what yourrole was?
Monique Kavelaars (18:37):
My role was, first off, I wasn't calling or
deciding, I was a softer leaderin that I would say I was
leading from the bench, I waslike, I wasn't deciding who got
to play. So I had a relationshipwith coaching staff who gave me
a lot of rope to go and beinvolved with the athletes
beyond just my Exynos of thejob. And I think for a lot of
(19:02):
them, they were living so muchin their head. So there was a
long period of time where Ispent a lot of time just getting
to meet them, hearing theirstory, understanding their
struggle, questioning why theywere believing certain things
about themselves. And you couldsee shoulders drop, when they
were able to feel like they weresharing it and that I was of
some sort and authority, butstill not deciding whether they
(19:26):
were playing or not. But then Ihad an opportunity to, you know,
in the psychology of sport tosort of recognize Hey, guys,
like you get to decide this,you're in charge of this, this
is your team, you know, we arejust all on the side here and
that that helped to change.
Listening was key, also thenstarting to message in what was
the values that they wanted towin and, and having gone from
the first year to like halfwaythrough the tableau of it to
(19:50):
winning the whole Swedishchampionship four or five years
later was just mind boggling tosee what the mind in their
collective culture could create.
Zoran Stojkovic (19:59):
Wow. What sport was it?
Monique Kavelaars (20:01):
It was it's floorball. But in English, in
Sweden, they call it"innebandy". So it was a semi
pro team. It's in in Gothenburg.
So, yeah.
Zoran Stojkovic (20:10):
Sweet floorball. Was that the one with
the with the ring? No, is thatringette?
Monique Kavelaars (20:17):
it's a ball with a whole bunch of holes in
it. And, and the stick itself isactually it's got mesh, there's
holes in it. So you can smackthat ball hard. But it's going
to start slowing down the minuteit goes off. You're like me, and
Sweden, they're incrediblyskilled at this. It's nuts,
nuts,
Zoran Stojkovic (20:33):
Neat. And so your role was actually like
listening to them andquestioning some of their self
doubt?
Monique Kavelaars (20:43):
yeah, part of that. And then also collectively
doing a lot of team engagementexercises, where I was trying to
do little Mic drop moments,like, you know, you can destroy
something easily. But it's sohard to build something. So
which one are you going to be apart of. So I did a lot of group
activities, which was and Itried to make it as fun training
(21:06):
hard is hard. And just made itfun and engaging, where they
could laugh and enjoy it, butalso lay there and go, holy cow,
we've just trashed ourselves,and we're getting stronger. Like
they could believe like, I amtougher than everybody else out
there. So that belief also solistening, but also collectively
doing a lot of team buildingactivities to sort of get them
(21:27):
to buy into each other
Zoran Stojkovic (21:29):
team building activities have gotten a bad rep
for...you know, these teams willjust go and do these, just these
team building activities and nothave some of these authentic and
vulnerable conversations and notactually live in alignment with
the values and know what thevalues are. And, and they'll
think that that's it, or they'llput down some values on a sheet
(21:50):
and put it up on a wall in theoffice and be like, yeah,
that's, that's it. We've workedon Team culture. And now we can
go back to being what we werebefore.
Monique Kavelaars (21:58):
It's hard I get it. It's like, it's hard.
It's like that's not going to doit. It's not.
Zoran Stojkovic (22:04):
is there one that you found to be really
potent and powerful?
Monique Kavelaars (22:08):
Um, I do with teams, it sometimes can be very
heavy, where I am brought in todo a program where we look at
the cohesiveness of a team and Ido a survey, basically asking
everybody, do you trust eachother? Like, do you apologize to
each other? And they had to takeit from their perspective of
(22:31):
what their team was, when youargue is, are people holding
grudges? Is there gossip? areyou sharing information? Do you
withhold information frompeople, so really like sticky
stuff? So I collect that data,and then I create a program like
a come to Jesus moment, like,Alright, let's talk about this.
And sometimes it can be veryuncomfortable, I try to have a
(22:53):
good sense of humor about it, Iusually understand some context,
what's going on in the room. Andwhen I get brought into those
situations, it's often becauseleadership is just like, I'm
trying everything here. I don'tknow what it is. And sadly,
sometimes I feel like I am thekiss of death. Because often
it's that one or two individualsthat have made it really hard
for the entire team. And this issort of like, let's have a
(23:15):
conversation about it. Andsometimes that individuals with
they may not mean it, they'rejust an accidental mess maker.
They are not Oh, I had no ideaor an awareness of what
individual preferences are forindividuals. So somebody may
Hey, I do this, because this isjust my personality. Where and
(23:36):
when you do this, did it I'msensing. It's personal. Like
it's sort of like, let's cleanthe air here. So that that's one
thing that I feel even on thesports team, we've done where we
had, you know, a room, let's getit out. Let's talk about it.
It's uncomfortable, though.
Especially when sometime we'rehumans, you know, we sometimes
we we all have bad behavior.
(23:57):
unavoidable.
Zoran Stojkovic (23:58):
Yeah. And that uncomfortableness leads to
growth. Yep. So if that if thatdoesn't happen, if we don't ask
those questions. I mean, I guesssometimes going in, a leader may
not want to open a certain canof worms. So just just being you
know.
Unknown (24:18):
And sometimes I go, Oh, my gosh, is heavy. But I also
not a person, I'm veryimpatient, where I say, Hey, you
know, here's the choice. We'reat the crossroads. I'm not
sitting here. I want tosometimes an individual requires
coaching, but I'm thinking ofthe team's performance. And I
said, granted, I get it, but youhave to recognize there's
(24:38):
something here that's justpulling everybody down. So get
some help. But there's also asense of like, do you even see
what's happening and it may notbe one individual it may be just
habits and patterns of howpeople are doing things. You
know, not holding each otheraccountable and not directing
you know, or thinking of yourindividual result rather than
(24:59):
the collective risk. You knowhow I you know, I scored the
goal, but we still lost but lookat me I still scored.
Zoran Stojkovic (25:06):
Yeah, it's it's so important to have that team
first mindset. That's I thinkany any team that I've been on
or lead? That's that's the thingthat really speaks to me when
people are very focused onthemselves. And that that
example would would definitelythat would irked me that was
that was a teammate.
Monique Kavelaars (25:26):
Yeah, no.
Well, I just watched a great TVseries on Apple TV. It's called
Ted Lasso, I think you'd likeit. It's a soccer player. It's
just hilarious, funny. But thereis that dynamics going on on the
team. There's this rock star ofa player who does not hide his
opinion. It's exaggerated, it'sTV. But it's interesting to see
everybody's role is important,even if it doesn't score the
(25:48):
goal. And sometimes if we have aculture that doesn't appreciate
that, or doesn't, you know, welive in a culture where there's
such a glorified exposure ofeveryone's best day and what
have you. Sometimes it's like,no, there's other things here at
play. I know that's a bitdeeper, but that's a big part of
it, too. For me.
Zoran Stojkovic (26:07):
Yeah, it is.
And you've already touched upona couple of toxic behaviors. I
mean, those can really rip aparta culture and a team and can
really, if those cracks, thoselittle cracks can turn into into
bigger cracks and lead to to adownfall of a team essentially,
like what what have you found tobe some of the top toxic
behaviors and for Team culture?
(26:31):
And how have you dealt withthem? Or how have you advised
leaders to deal with them?
Monique Kavelaars (26:34):
Okay. So when I've done assessments within
organizations, we get a littlebit of a rundown on toxic
behaviors, like gossip, grudges,not sharing information, not
trusting team fates, followthrough silos, what have you.
And once we I think, like anyconscious behavior, if it's at
least identified in the room,first and foremost, it lose a
(26:57):
lot of its power, just becauseit's right there. So and when
there's a collectiveunderstanding of that is not
acceptable. There's years whofirst stopped a step of how to
actually improve upon it, oftenit can happen where the person's
intentions are, you know, theydon't need to do it. So there's
a coaching element a discussion.
If you're looking at an a sportsteam, I can, I can recognize
(27:20):
that it's hard, because theystill, you know, I've seen it
where someone's behavior is sopoor, but they are the all star
player on the team. And soyou're like, Oh, my gosh, we
have to accommodate this. And ittakes a lot of bravery for
leadership to to make a choiceof what's most important, and I,
I wouldn't welcome standing inthose shoes, because it's a it's
(27:42):
a hard one, when you have tomake that choice. So I would say
those toxic behaviors, havingidentifying it would be key,
coaching the individual whenthey do it, and trying to
understand what where they'remissing it. And if it gets to a
point where they're still like aneglect or an indifference to
it, there's got to be a come toJesus moment of like, Hey,
(28:04):
listen, this is, this is whatwe're valuing. And this is what
you're not giving. So you haveto make a choice, or we'll make
it for you.
Zoran Stojkovic (28:12):
Yeah, and, and if somebody you saying, if
somebody violates the behavior,after being given a chance to
change it, being coached on it,it's that it's really that
choice of if you don't changesomething, you're, you're gone.
Even if they're a star player?
Monique Kavelaars (28:28):
You see I find that hard I find in a
sports team, it's really hard.
Sometimes we have, you want toaccommodate it, and you want to
understand it and sometimes inthe moment and heat of
competition, I'm stepping in, incorporate and in sport, you
know, I myself in high stress insituations have lost my mind.
And being a person to walk inthe room and apologize after the
(28:52):
fact is so vital. So to coachthat individual, if that's what
they're doing. also recognizingmaybe they need something this
is more getting in thepsychology of it, maybe they
need something to perform thatwe need to give them a space
for. So there's a lot morecomplexity there within an
organization. I have been inseveral I think there were three
or four teams last year wherewe've done a program about you
(29:14):
know, cohesiveness and whatbehaviors we would to engage and
then a month later that personthat was really struggling or
not really adding value wasasked to leave and you could see
the rest of the team just okay,I think I you know, they they
almost look to leadership, likeare you going to accept this is
this is this gonna be okay?
(29:36):
Because if it is, then I youstart losing the good people,
because they're like, I'm out. Idon't want to do this. So.
Zoran Stojkovic (29:43):
Yeah, so you're you're saying that, yeah,
that's, that's massive, justactually following through on it
even though it's it's hard andthe star performer is
contributing a lot but takingaway in other ways and and i
think that you know, 100 On ateam, there's no, there's no
neutral. Like I think there'sthere's either you have a
(30:05):
negative contribution orpositive contribution. And if
you're if you're notcontributing anything that may
as well be negativecontribution. And if somebody is
taking away, even though they'reon paper, they're doing great
results, great stats, greatsales, whatever it is, maybe
they got to go in, the team'sgonna perform better, as you
said, their shoulders are gonnaget relaxed. And
Monique Kavelaars (30:27):
well, if you're taking 10, or 20%, out of
your teammates performance basedupon your own behavior, and you
go around the room 10% here, 10%here, 10%, you don't even have
one person in the room anymore.
So you're you're playing, youknow, 10 men out of 11.
Zoran Stojkovic (30:44):
Wait, what do you mean by that?
Monique Kavelaars (30:45):
Well, if you're playing a soccer game,
and somebody, you're going toget a red card, somebody's going
to have to walk off. But ifeverybody is just accommodating
someone's poor behavior, andthey're showing up less of
themselves based upon it, andthat's 10% of you and 10% of me,
I'm leaning out, all of asudden, you got 10 people in the
room, and you got 100%, you gotsome you have, you're missing an
(31:07):
entire player.
Zoran Stojkovic (31:09):
Yeah, even though you have all the players,
you're still missing the entireplayer, because somebody is
having a terrible influence.
Monique Kavelaars (31:15):
You know, the math is there, you'd lost. You
got 100 now and I'm like, there,there's, you're missing a lot in
what the whole team as a wholecould be.
Zoran Stojkovic (31:24):
I like that.
Monique Kavelaars (31:25):
It's not something...And I say this in
the long game. Like in the shortgame, we have, you know, moments
where we mess up and we have youbut we correct and we self
correct or the team helps us or,but if we can see a pattern. And
you all of a sudden see peoplenot being able to be the best
that they can it's like okay,wait a minute, I'm, I'm losing
players now.
Zoran Stojkovic (31:46):
Yeah. And and the diminishers. We talked about
where they take away or makeeverybody perform worse. There's
there's the multipliers who mayraise models, right? They may
raise people's and that's thepeople you want on your team?
Monique Kavelaars (32:00):
Absolutely.
Zoran Stojkovic (32:01):
And maybe they're not the star performer.
And maybe they're in theshadows. But for some, for
whatever reason, they're thelifeblood, they're within the
DNA of the team. They live thevalues of the team.
Monique Kavelaars (32:14):
Absolutely. I think you and I spoke a little
earlier about Simon Sinek. Andhe has this whole chart. And he
was talking about competence.
Like he was looking at themilitary. And he had this thing
where he was looking at Marines.
And he said, you know, ifcapability to pick people knit,
you know, teams, seal six, andhe said, you know, competence,
(32:35):
and trust on the diagram. And soobviously, you want somebody
who's high trust, highcompetence. However, if you have
somebody who's on low trust, buthigh competence, they're toxic
to the environment. And they'renot somebody you want on your
team. But if you take someone inrelation to who's maybe a little
less competent, but really highon trust, you take that person
(32:58):
every day, because they're goingto make everybody better. And I
and I think the expression theguys in the Marine had said, how
they just said it was like, do Itrust you with my life? But I do
I trust you with my money and mywife?
Zoran Stojkovic (33:12):
That's a good one.
Monique Kavelaars (33:14):
So they were pretty hardcore of like, if you
want in our crew, this is whatthis is the family we're in, you
know, you gotta be all of that.
Zoran Stojkovic (33:21):
Competence and trust. And competence doesn't
have the bigger premium trust isthe premium is on trust.
Monique Kavelaars (33:28):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Zoran Stojkovic (33:30):
Wow. We've talked a bunch about cultures,
culture, but how can leadersmeasure and analyze team
culture? It's sometimes veryfluffy and fairy and, and it's
hard to hard to really see. Butwhat are ways that are tools
that people can use?
Monique Kavelaars (33:47):
in sports teams, you're winning, and
you're getting people wanting tobe on the team. And people are
having fun, and even whenthey're losing, they still want
to work hard at it. So there's alittle measurement there
internally isn't organizations,you're going to see it in
turnover, people are going tolean out, they're not going to
want and you're going to say whyare we looking for people,
there's not a growth, you don'tsee any growth, there's turnover
(34:09):
occurring. And you can see alack of engagement, quality of
work lessons. And, you know, youyou see good people leave, like
those are those are, that'sactually probably already too
late. Like you've let thingsslide so long, that it's gotten
that bad. So if you're reallynot paying attention, that's
(34:31):
your measurement. But I think asan organization that is trying
to thrive, I think it'simportant to tap into, you know,
needs assessments within anorganization really collectively
asking and developing peoplelike managers in employees, so
that they see that you valuethem not only for the with the
work they do for you, but and intheir own career path. That's a
(34:54):
value that I think everybodywants to feel universally so if
you want to measure it, I thinkwhen You see people investing in
that there's an indication thatthey're in for the long game to
Zoran Stojkovic (35:06):
The turnover.
Monique Kavelaars (35:07):
the turnover, you know, the growth is not
happening, you're losing goodpeople. And also your
reputation. Like sometimes it'slike ask your, you know,
sometimes I've heard people canyou left the organization? Can
you call them find out why. Andsometimes this this current
state is people are looking fornew opportunities and what have
(35:29):
you. So it has nothing personal,they like the job, they just
wanted a different experience.
But often, if you look at a twoyear period, or one year period,
even less than that, and you cansay, Why, what's happening, I
need to do it. So we do it thatthe, you know, cohesion test
where we assess how everybodyfeels on trust, conflict,
commitment, accountability andresults. We have a conversation,
(35:49):
so they get a real temperaturegauge. And then we do it again
in three months to see ifthere's a progress or
improvement because they feellike hey, we're getting better.
Zoran Stojkovic (35:59):
That's massive.
And with the, with the turnover,it's, it's it really is about
potentially not doing the exitinterviews when people leave,
but doing an entry entryinterview. When people come in,
hey, what's gonna make youthrive in this job? drives you
crazy? What can we do to supportyou so that you're doing your
best work? And, you know,understanding the person? I
(36:22):
think I think that's massive.
Monique Kavelaars (36:25):
Yeah, it's like an operations manual.
Here's my, here's my, who I am.
And here's who we are. Let'smake sure we understand each
other. And I think that's key.
Because I think, you know, Icould segue, but I mean,
speaking in a very low context,like, let's not complicate it,
let's not speak in code here.
Let's make it transparentlyobvious to everyone who you are
(36:47):
what you need, where's yourgrowth? We're invested in you,
this is what we value, like,make it no secret. You know, I
think it's your rallying cry,like, make it part of what you
value.
Zoran Stojkovic (36:59):
Yeah, you're saying no secret. So that means
transparency.
Monique Kavelaars (37:03):
transparency, or sometimes when I say secret,
it's not done intentionally, butspend some effort on defining
it. So when people come in, theyknow don't make it their job, to
figure it out. You know, and,and also, when you when you have
it, live it, you know, don't sayit, do it, you know, that's
another big step. That's huge.
Zoran Stojkovic (37:25):
The clarity, the clarity of how you function
as a company, how you functionas a manager, or leader in a
company, and communicating thatand maybe even communicating
that in the interviews so thatpeople can see if it's a good
fit.
Monique Kavelaars (37:37):
Yeah, yeah, I've heard that too. I saw I
heard an interview where theywere really trying to establish
if this person was, you know,really a fit for the
organization, because theyrecognize they had an incredible
culture, and they were reallynot wanting to bring anybody in
that would mess that up. And sothey were trying to interview
people, okay, let's just go,let's go across the street, and
(37:58):
we're gonna grab some lunch, andthey wanted to just see how they
interacted with the waitstaff orthe person who was cleaning the
table, or hearing their story ina very casual setting. So they
could get indications like, No,we really are these, this is
what we our culture is and andyou can say really good things
(38:18):
in an interview. But let's takeyou out of an uncut, you know,
unusual situation. So we canreally tap into this, who are
you? Like, are you going to fitin here? Or I've heard
organizations where they'll say,we'll hire you. And if it's not
a fit, we'll give you $5,000 toleave
Zoran Stojkovic (38:35):
Zappos?
Monique Kavelaars (38:36):
Yep. That's, there you go. Leave. If it's
not, you know, we'll pay you togo it's all good.
Zoran Stojkovic (38:41):
Some people take it and I think, I think in
terms of Yeah, the restaurantpieces is really good because
then you can actually seewhether this is a person you can
actually go to lunch with whenthey work there, which is
important as as a person you cangrab a coffee with and and talk
to not just about work, which iswhich is really important.
Monique Kavelaars (38:59):
I had heard them when Tina Fey was starting
her TV series on 30 rock, shewas trying to develop or bring
in writers and she would talk toMichael Lauren from Saturday
Night Live and say, you know,what, what words of wisdom Do
you have when I hire my team?
And he said, try to think of whoyou want to see at three in the
morning in the hallway. And ifyou're in the interview and
(39:22):
think that this person willannoy you at two or three in the
morning, then don't hire them.
Because that's what you'll haveto see at 2 or 3 in the morning
is them in the hallway.
Zoran Stojkovic (39:34):
That's really good. Yeah, that's solid. Yeah.
Monique, what does cultivatingyour culture mean to you? What
does that phrase mean to you?
Monique Kavelaars (39:43):
Um, cultivating your culture is
making it a priority. It's not amission statement. It's not a
value. It's an every daypriority. It's depending on what
your values are. And I thinkcollectively I think cultivating
a culture here is inclusion andconnection and engagement,
(40:07):
trying to get people to alignand see themselves wanting to
contribute. But cultivating itis what it means to me. It's not
something that you just talkabout, it's something you have
to do every day, as anorganization, as a sports team,
and the reward on the other sideof it is so huge, so huge.
Zoran Stojkovic (40:25):
So you're saying what I'm hearing you say
is it's something you you'recultivating and creating
everyday? It's an everydaypriority. It's connection,
engagement, inclusion ofeverybody.
Monique Kavelaars (40:37):
Yeah. Yeah.
Zoran Stojkovic (40:40):
Neat. And is there, I know, you've mentioned
some really great tools andsuggestions. But is there one
practical tool that leaders canuse tomorrow to cultivate the
culture of their team?
Monique Kavelaars (40:54):
I love the five Behaviors of a cohesive
team by Patrick lencioni. It's areally quick, easy read of a
book. And looking at behaviorswithin a team, a small team of
like eight to 10 people. Theyalso have tools, and we use this
tool in our organization wherewe tap into how we take a
(41:15):
temperature of the team. And ithelps leadership. So that tool I
think, is important,particularly of if they don't
feel unnecessarily skilled onhaving conversations about trust
or conflict, it doesn't have tobe heavy lifting, but it needs
to be, you know, identified andseen. So I think that's a great
tool. There's so much stuff outthere. I recently was just
(41:39):
reading a book, it doesn'treally have to do with company
culture. But I found it veryinteresting. It's called culture
map by Aaron Meyers. And ittalks about global cultures. But
I find it interesting about someof the eight values of how
people, when you look at yourown individual culture as an
organization, you could takethose eight values that she
describes and says, okay, wheredo we sit on the pendulum? how,
(42:02):
you know, when we makedecisions, how do we do it? When
we lead? How do we how do wedevelop trust? Is it task based?
Or is it relationship based,like, it's a really great
definer you could kind ofscratch your head about so I
think that's a really good tool
Zoran Stojkovic (42:16):
Neat. And those are some of my next question was
going to be some some booksuggestions on culture. And
you've already mentioned thefive Behaviors of a cohesive
team and the culture map. Isthere another book or resource
that you think would be good totap into?
Monique Kavelaars (42:30):
different cultures? You know, I really I
we read a while ago is a greatbook by Daniel Coyle, and it's
called Culture Code. It's agreat one he's also got what's
the other one? He has
Zoran Stojkovic (42:41):
Talent code.
Monique Kavelaars (42:42):
talent code, right? So the talent code first
culture Cody's got it now. I seethere's there's so many good
books that I have. So atomichabits, but that's more like
self development. But yetculture I think culture code,
five Behaviors of a cohesiveteam, a lot of Patrick lencioni,
he's all of his book series arereally based upon trying to draw
(43:03):
upon the collective intelligenceof a team.
Zoran Stojkovic (43:06):
Nice. Those are really good suggestions I've
read. I've read the culturecode, atomic habits. And I've
not read the five Behaviors of acohesive team, so I'll have to
get them.
Monique Kavelaars (43:16):
Oh it's good.
It's an easy read. It's a fable.
It's a really easy read.
Zoran Stojkovic (43:20):
I'll check that out. Tell me about cover Lars
consulting. Am I pronouncingthat okay?
Unknown (43:26):
right. That's good.
It's good. I will I started, Istart my own consulting firm
during a pandemic. So my timingis fantastic. No, I had always
been wanting to kind of branchoff on my own. So I still work
with the gentleman I had beenwith in the spring. But I've
started more, starting myconsulting firm only because I
really enjoy the intentionaround organizations seeking to
(43:48):
improve their teams, theirpeople, not only beyond who they
are as people, but as a team.
But then also I really want toget into like, how do we
actually make better decisionstogether, find solutions, you
know, make decisions, findsolutions, identify problems and
how we're doing it in a reallyquick and, you know, result
(44:11):
focused format. So I'm kind oftinkering around, packaging, all
that. So that's what, a fewmonths ago.
Zoran Stojkovic (44:19):
So we're looking at team culture and and
cohesiveness, but also systemsand processes for peak
creativity and innovation?
Monique Kavelaars (44:27):
Absolutely design thinking design sprints.
And then also some personalassessment leadership tools that
we use to just sort of helpmanagers lead people better.
Zoran Stojkovic (44:37):
So cool. That's exciting. And like, What are you
up to right now? And where canpeople find you? Where can
people connect with you?
Monique Kavelaars (44:44):
my website and I'm on LinkedIn, and right
now I'm chatting with you. Andso a lot of the opportunities
that I get like this to be ableto speak with people so I tried
to keep people who are followingme on Instagram or LinkedIn to
sort of see some of theconversations we're having
and...
Yeah, some of the projects I'mdoing and yeah, gonna be in
Tokyo this summer. So with as anathlete, mentor, so I'm sort of
(45:07):
working a lot with them too,which is, is sort of an off
branch of things. So yeah.
Zoran Stojkovic (45:12):
Cool. Awesome.
Well, hey, thanks so much fortaking the time to, to speak to
me and to share and and youknow, your insights. And there's
a lot of gems in here. And I'mreally, I think people are
really going to enjoy thisepisode.
Monique Kavelaars (45:26):
Great. Thank Well, thank you for having me.
Zoran Stojkovic (45:28):
Yeah.
Monique Kavelaars (45:29):
Good luck to you!
Zoran Stojkovic (45:30):
We'll do this again sometime. Thank you.
Hey, thanks for tuning in tocultivate your culture. Rate and
reviewer podcast on iTunes. Anywebsites and resources mentioned
in the podcast as well as theguests information can be found
on the show www.kizo.ca/podcast.
Here's a sneak peek of what'scoming up in our episode next
(45:54):
week.
Jennifer Wallinga (46:01):
To the coach ones who had to make a very
difficult decision to cut areally a really effective player
with a very high performanceplayer, but toxic and completely
counter to a lot of the culturalvalues that the team has
established together, justresisting.
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