November 4, 2021 • 38 mins
Rita Sever, founder of Supervision Matters talks about how to harness equity (not equality), what hidden rules are and how to change the toxic ones, and how to hire people who promote equity.
In today's episode, you'll learn:
- How to harness equity in your team and organization
- Why teams need equity, and not equality
- What hidden rules are and how to change the toxic ones
- How to tailor recruiting practices to hire people who promote equity
Visit www.kizo.ca/podcast to get extra resources or join our mailing list.
Our guest is Rita Sever, founder of Supervision Matters, a company that coaches organizations on how to improve culture, supervision and HR. With an MA in Organizational Psychology, Rita has taught at University of San Francisco and Sonoma State University in California. Her new book, Leading for Justice: Supervision, HR and Culture, is a practical look at how we build justice organizations that are connected, efficient, and resilient.
Connect with Rita on Twitter, LinkedIn, or through Supervision Matters. Her book can be bought on Amazon.
Cultivate your Culture is a show that decodes how leaders can create environments where their teams do their best work and flourish. Our guests are pioneers in team dynamics and culture from the worlds of business, military and sport. Hear them share simple, straightforward techniques that you could use with your team to set up, evolve and measure culture.
The host, Zoran Stojkovic helps people build habits and behaviors that unleash their inner greatness so that they can contribute positively to the world. Through his company, Kizo, he equips organizations and people with culture and mindset tools to reach full engagement through powerful workshops, memorable keynotes, and transformative individual consultations.
Cultivate Your Culture is produced by Kizo, a leadership coaching organization helping teams to get the results they want so that they can positively impact the world. To learn more about the services Kizo can provide for your team, please check out our website at kizo.ca/about.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Zoran Stojkovic (00:03):
Hey, what's going on and welcome to
cultivate your culture. Thisshow, this podcast is where we
decode how leaders can createenvironments where their teams
do their best work and flourish.
Our guests are pioneers in teamdynamics and culture from the
worlds of business, military andsport. Hear them shares simple,
(00:23):
straightforward techniques thatyou could use with your team to
set up, evolve and measureculture. With over 92,000 hours
spent working. Let's focus onthe relationships and the
results will follow. I'm yourhost, Zoran Stojkovic edge, and
I help people build habits andbehaviors that unleash their
inner greatness so that they cancontribute positively to the
world. Now, let's get intotoday's episode.
Rita Sever (00:51):
Are there people who are shut out of the most
important meetings? Are therepeople who are eating lunch
alone, you know, just payattention just start with
Zoran Stojkovic (01:02):
that's Rita Seaver, founder of supervision
matters. She coachesorganizations on how to improve
culture supervision, and HRwhich boosts effectiveness. With
an MA in OrganizationalPsychology, Rita is taught at
the University of San Franciscoand Sonoma State University in
California. Her new book leadingfor justice supervision, HR and
(01:22):
culture is a practical look athow we build justice
organizations that areconnected, efficient and
resilient. Today, we're going tohear from Rita on how you can
harness equity in your team andorganization, what hidden rules
are and how to break down thetoxic ones, and how to tailor
recruiting practices to hirepeople who behave in ways that
promote equity. Something Inoticed in this episode is how
(01:44):
important objective observationis. And that's something
everyone can do. Payingattention to what colleagues are
saying how they're behaving, andthe quality of relationships
allows awareness to build.
That's step one, in making anychange to culture. And that's
why I'm so excited for you guysto hear from Rita. And that's
coming up next. How do youdefine equity?
Rita Sever (02:07):
So equity is about fairness, it's about giving
people what they need to feelincluded, and to feel like
they're being treated well. It'sdifferent than equality,
equality may look this, it doeslook the same. That's the
definition of equality is you'retreating people the same. But
(02:31):
people don't need the samethings. There are historical
tests, for example, that werethe same people were treated the
same in terms of you have topass this test to get a job. But
then it was determined thatthere was an impact that
affected different groups ofpeople differently. And so
(02:51):
that's the difference betweenequality and equity, equity,
make sure there is a way forwardfor everyone.
Zoran Stojkovic (02:57):
What I'm hearing is there is a
difference. Equality isn't likewe don't actually want true
equality, we want equity is whatI'm hearing,
Rita Sever (03:07):
right? And quality is a step on the way to equity,
because equality isacknowledging there's a problem,
and we want to fix it. But thenwe need to go be on that to ask
what people actually need. Howdo we give people the same
opportunity?
Zoran Stojkovic (03:25):
And presumably both equality and equity impact
culture? And in your book, youtalk about hidden rules, right?
So can you give us a fewexamples of how hidden rules
impact culture,
Rita Sever (03:36):
the one I think that is most telling, and it isn't
specifically an equity example,but I think it's a powerful one
is say, you're a new staffmember, and you go to a meeting,
and the boss proposes a plan andsays, anybody have any questions
or want to challenge anythingI've said, and you're eager to
(03:59):
jump in, and you raise your handand you say, I'm concerned about
ABCD, and E. And then there'stotal silence. And after the
fact, you realize that thehidden rule is that that was a
rhetorical question, that theboss did not really want any
challenges. So that's the thingwith hidden roles. It's
(04:21):
something that everybody knows,unless you're new, or you're not
part of the in group. Hiddenrules mean that you either know
them or you're judged by them.
And so that's one example. Ainsidious one and a tricky one
in terms of equity, is what kindof small talk is allowed. Nobody
(04:42):
has rules about what you cantalk about. And yeah, I suppose
you know, the way it plays outthe hidden rule is that straight
people can talk about theirfamily and their partners. But
if a gay person talks abouttheir partner and when They did
or their wedding plans. There's,again, silence for people leave
(05:03):
the room. I went to one companyonce where it was very clear,
there was a lot of employees whowere middle aged women. And they
talked very freely about theirhormones and menopause. And, you
know, it wasn't, everybodywasn't comfortable, but it was
accepted. And then at one point,a trans man joined the group,
(05:27):
and he started joining intalking about his hormones. And
that was not okay. So thatthat's the way that input packs
culture is at its most people,people get the message through
these hidden rules, whether theyare truly welcome. Or they're
just sort of there to get theirnumbers up. And in terms of
(05:50):
performance, in that firstexample, that person who jumped
in, is going to be very hesitantto be involved in the future.
And it's going to impact there'scertainly not going to be a lot
of innovation in that company.
When the question is rhetorical.
How could we do thisdifferently?
Zoran Stojkovic (06:11):
Interesting. So these hidden, I've heard this
explained in different ways, butI love your language, because
it's so palpable, it's so simplehidden rules. I've heard about
the invisible handshake. So wedo this invisible handshake. And
that's what you agreed to. Andit really sounds like social
norms. Right? Exactly. And thesethese group norms that are part
(06:34):
of, maybe they're not thewriting on the wall, but you
will learn it as you go. Maybethere's a specific word that
that is okay, or isn't okay. Ormaybe there's, yeah, that that's
kind of what I'm thinking of onething that really caught my
attention was your phrase of gettheir numbers up? Can you
(06:56):
explain what you mean by that,and why that's significant for
equity and culture.
Rita Sever (07:00):
Some organizations want to want to be diverse, or
at least want to look diverse.
And so they will hire people wholook different, who aren't
white, who aren't straight,whatever, who are immigrants,
they may include people, butthey don't really welcome them,
(07:21):
they get their numbers up. Sothey can say, Yes, we have a
diverse staff. But they don'tchange the way they do anything.
So the predominant dominantculture, those hidden rules are
still very much in force. Andactively, although suddenly
exclude people,
Zoran Stojkovic (07:41):
you're saying that's worse, it's worse to hire
somebody just because they'redifferent. If you're not
actually embedding them, withinthe culture and letting who they
are, whatever that means,however, they're, they're
different and unique impact theculture of the organization,
Rita Sever (07:58):
right? Because you are not setting them up for
success. Because how can you besuccessful if you're not truly
included, if you're not in themeetings that matter if you
don't get to go to the happyhours, all that kind of thing,
where often, you know,relationships are built, and
sometimes decisions are made. Soit is a way that companies
(08:22):
sometimes go through the motion,but don't really change to be
what they purport they want tobe.
Zoran Stojkovic (08:30):
That work outside of work, those work
conversation outside of work,you're saying that's where some
of the key decisions are made.
And true equity would meaninviting everybody,
Rita Sever (08:41):
and not just inviting, but they feel welcome.
They feel they want to go, theyfeel so much a part of the group
that yeah, they want to go hangout. And not just because they
they better not say now,
Zoran Stojkovic (08:55):
what I've experienced, and in my work in
organizations, on culture, andsome of the teams that I've been
a part of, sometimes these silosstart to pop up. Sometimes the
silos are actually cultural. Sopeople from, you know, people
from the same tribe sticktogether, which makes sense. So
(09:18):
is there anything that can bedone to connect those bridges
between those silos, so thateverybody's noses are pointing
in the same direction, butpeople are not losing that
individuality. And they stillmaintain that connection within
the group that they feel mostwelcoming? What can be done?
Rita Sever (09:38):
The first thing is, of course, as you said, pointing
your nose in the same directionmaking sure everyone is on the
same team in terms of what arewe here for? Where are we going,
what are our values? How are wegoing to accomplish this? So
that's the first thing nothaving artificial barriers
between the fiscal departmentand Mark Killing department for
(10:01):
example. And the second thing isactively working to break down
those those feelings of tribalillness at at work, you may
still have your own friends wholook like you in your off hours.
But at work, you want to buildthe bridges. So people are
(10:22):
connected, that people feel safevoicing their both their
personal experience whenappropriate, and their ideas and
suggestions in terms of work.
Zoran Stojkovic (10:35):
Right. So you're saying it's very
important. And I'd argue thatdiversity as a competitive
advantage?
Rita Sever (10:42):
Absolutely. Yeah.
When there are more ideas on thetable and more ways of doing
things, and people can seethemselves in your company. And
you're walking the talk. Soyou're in alignment with what
you say your values are, peopleare going to flock to your
business.
Zoran Stojkovic (11:02):
Okay, so let me give you a scenario here. So
imagine, imagine you're in ateam where people believe in and
support equality, what actionsshould a leader take to ensure a
behavior shift that cultivates aculture of equality? The
leadership, I'm talking aboutthe leaders, leadership group,
(11:22):
the key decision makers, whatcan they do?
Rita Sever (11:24):
I think the first thing first and most important
thing they need to do is payattention to see how the culture
is playing out in terms ofdemographics and inclusion. Are
there people who are shut out ofthe most important meetings? Are
there people who are eatinglunch alone? You know, just pay
(11:46):
attention to start with, look atboth what's happening in front
of you, and that your policiesand practices are you doing them
the same way you've done themfor years or decades, if so, you
need to shake things up. Becausewhat the best practices have
(12:06):
been, historically have excludedpeople. So if you're still
hiring in the same way you did20 years ago, you're probably
getting the same kind of peopleyou did. And if you want a
diverse staff, you're not goingto get it that way. So that
paying attention to what'shappening around you paying
(12:27):
attention to your practices. Andmost of all, paying attention
and listening to the people youdo hire, who bring diverse
experiences, if they come to youand say I was really
uncomfortable when somebody saidthis in the meeting, don't just
brush it off and say, Oh, theydidn't mean anything by it. Say
(12:50):
what happened? What did what didthat feel like? How did it make
you feel uncomfortable? And thenact on that? If you have ideas
of how things need to bedifferent than make it real, not
just we should be nicer to eachother. But concrete? How do we
(13:13):
expect people to act?
Zoran Stojkovic (13:15):
Listening?
Okay, so Listening, payingattention doing something about
situations that people come toyou for? And I mean, I don't
think this, I think sometimespeople are not huge fans of HR,
or the ops team or whatever itis. And they don't trust them,
because they think they're sortof like the spies for the CEO or
whatever, of the company. Sosometimes those conversations
(13:38):
happen. It's like the aftermeeting meeting or in sport,
they call it the athletewhispers. And it's like, Well,
okay, when the coach is donetalking, what are the athletes
saying? And so that's where someof those conversations happen.
But then those are not alwaysbrought to somebody's attention,
especially if the system and thetrust and the psychological
safety within the company, arenot set up in a way that those
(13:59):
come to fruition. So then, withthis, I have a similar question
what what actions can nonleaders take to ensure a
behavior shift that cultivates aculture of equality within an
organization, and we're talkingabout an organization that
already believes in so talksabout believing in and supports
equality? It's on the website,
Rita Sever (14:22):
I think supervisors at any level can have a really
big impact on their staff. I'mall about supervision matters is
the name of my business. Andsupervisors have the most direct
impact on the day to dayexperience of their staff. So
certainly, they can take directaction. But even if you're a
(14:43):
colleague, you can still listen.
You can still pay attention. Youcan speak up when comments are
made that are disrespectful. Youcan tell another colleague that
you know that assumption youmade about our other Holly was
really not fair. And I want tobring us together. So we can all
talk about what happened, or Iwant to bring us together, so we
(15:06):
can build a stronger team. Soyou can still help make those
bridges that get peopleconnected and talking to each
other.
Zoran Stojkovic (15:17):
That's a good suggestion. I think sometimes
that's harder to do, especially,especially with the shift to
online. In the past two years orso, I think it's been tough for
to see and hear what the aftermeeting meeting is, and to check
in with people organically andto see the body language to see
(15:39):
the morale. You know, a lot ofthese meetings, people's cameras
might be off there, you know,it's the communication happens
through slack or throughMicrosoft Teams, or whatever it
is, for companies or, or forteams, it might be a group chat.
And so I mean, it's, it's just alittle bit tricky. trickier to
measure that and to FigureFigure out what's, what's not
(16:02):
going well, or what's goingwell, in that setting.
Absolutely.
Rita Sever (16:05):
And it has to be a very proactive, initiative to do
it, because otherwise, you'renot gonna hear what you need to
hear. So it building in time forvirtual happy hours for virtual
conversations, checking people,all of that really makes a
difference. And I want to goback and say one more thing
(16:26):
about what a leader can do,because in response to what you
said, about HR not beingtrusted, I know that's true. And
that is a strong step a leadercan take is build an HR
department that people trust.
And that really serves thepurpose of supporting staff not
just being the tool formanagement,
Zoran Stojkovic (16:49):
those changing the title to operations team
does that. What does that do? Isthat a piece of it?
Rita Sever (16:56):
Sure, that can be because HR does have such a,
unfortunately, such a badreputation. You know, sometimes
the titles never like ChiefPeople Officer. I don't know if
that changes anything, butfinding a way to rebrand HR. So
it is on the side of staff, notjust a tool of management.
Zoran Stojkovic (17:19):
Yeah. When I think of HR, I just think of
Toby from the office.
Rita Sever (17:26):
Anybody?
Zoran Stojkovic (17:27):
Yes? Yes. Yeah, for sure. So you've obviously in
the office?
Rita Sever (17:31):
Yes.
Zoran Stojkovic (17:34):
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(18:19):
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check out inner logic.com. Okay,do you think Michael was a good
manager?
Rita Sever (18:34):
In some ways he was because he had relationships
with everybody in most ways hewasn't. But I think he, he, his
heart was in the right place.
And he built connections thatcarried him through a lot of his
goofiness and problematicbehaviors
Zoran Stojkovic (18:57):
that that show and I I agree with you, I think
he was actually think he caredquite a lot. And he did his
best. And like when you see whenthe different managers came in,
like when Will Ferrell hischaracter came in and there was
Andy Bernard, I think was, yeah,it's like, it's kind of
interesting to see. That'sreally when they realized how
(19:18):
awesome Michael was, even thoughhe was kind of weird and quirky
and very inappropriate. Likemost companies, most companies
of today, you'd be gone for someof the things that he did.
Rita Sever (19:28):
Exactly. Thinking of the harassment show.
Zoran Stojkovic (19:31):
Yeah. So would you now when we think about
these organizations, right.
Great show, by the way, foranybody who hasn't seen the
show, it's it's fascinating,super funny. I think it's on
Netflix as well. Some of theseorganizations actually walk
their talk, what are sometangible signs or metrics that
(19:53):
an organization is walking theirtalk in terms of x equity and
inclusion.
Rita Sever (20:02):
So the most obvious is that they have a very diverse
staff. So they look diverse. Andthey look diverse at every level
of the organization, not justnew hires, not just line staff,
but up and down theorganization, and that all staff
are engaged. They're connected.
You know, if you talk tosomebody, and you say, how do
(20:27):
you like working here, and theysay, it's great, I feel so
excited to come to work.
Obviously, that's a good sign onany indicator. But it is on
equity too, because one of thethings we're going for with
equity is belonging, that's akey component of an equitable
(20:47):
culture, people feel like theybelong. And, you know, trans man
has the same voice in theorganization in terms of
presence that your suburban momhas, that every voice is
included. Another sign that Iactually look for, is do their
(21:12):
job announcements have thephrase or equivalent experience.
So we would like people to havea BA or masters, but we will
accept equivalent experience,because that tells me that they
acknowledge that not everyonehas an opportunity to get a
degree. And not every jobrequires a degree. So that in
(21:36):
itself is an equitable practice,opening the door and saying you
still have to be able to do thejob. But we won't exclude you
just based on this piece ofpaper.
Zoran Stojkovic (21:47):
Number one, you sing, it's the way that job
postings are put out. And so thereason that's important is
because that communicatesinclusion and equity. I mean, if
an organization or a team says,Hey, we're looking for great
verbal communication, well, whatif somebody is deaf, but they
could still do the work reallywell, that's not very inclusive,
(22:10):
that person, I think, in someways, like when I look at the
job landscape and the jobpostings of today, there's still
some ways that we have to golike that that will be one
example, depending on thecompany. The second one you
mentioned, is, is around no orequivalent experience,
Rita Sever (22:27):
right. And that doesn't mean that people don't
have degrees that only you know,white, straight people have
degrees, everybody has degrees.
But you are excluding peoplewhen you don't include that. So
you're welcome every person whomight be able to do the job. And
then you go from there.
Zoran Stojkovic (22:48):
How do you think I'm thinking about this
now, because the interviewprocess isn't like Miss hiring.
I've heard this phrase from oneof my mentors, Miss hiring is a
$5 trillion industry. It's a $5trillion mistake that you know,
in North America kind of thing.
So what can organizations do inthat interview process? Or in
(23:10):
that filtering of the resumes orapplications to ensure they're
bringing in people who havethose values of equity and
inclusion? If that if that is ifthey want to be walking the
talk?
Rita Sever (23:25):
Absolutely. That's a great question. And I think it
is about looking at wherethey've worked before. Are those
companies that have a goodreputation? And it's about
including a couple of questionsin the interview process about?
What have you done to advanceequity in your work? How has
(23:49):
your commitment to justiceinfluenced your work? You know,
if you really have that value,then ask people to tell you what
they've done. How do you supportdiverse teams? What's different
in your leadership in terms ofdiverse teams than non diverse
(24:12):
teams? Some of those questionscan really be helpful to hear
where people are, it's not thatthere's a right or wrong answer,
but you get a sense of havepeople thought about this.
Zoran Stojkovic (24:23):
I like your question of when in the past,
have you done like, tell me astory of what you've done to
advance justice or equity orinclusion in your organization?
Before we get into our listenerquestion. I have one more
question that I'm reallyinterested in and you talk about
a lot of concrete steps anorganization can take in your in
(24:45):
your book leading for justice.
What are like what are the topthree concrete steps an
organization can take to reallyoperate operationalize the value
of equity?
Rita Sever (24:56):
Um, so one is looking at demographics. Who do
you hire? Who do you promote?
How does your compensation playout? That is a very tongue Creek
metric to tell you if you areoperating an equitable
workforce. And if you're notfixing it, making adjustments,
(25:17):
and setting a goal to movethings forward. The other two
steps that I think are reallyimportant, besides what I've
already mentioned, is beingconcrete about what you expect
in terms of day to day behaviorin your workplace. If you are
(25:37):
really wanting to build anequitable workforce, what does
that look like? You can't justsay something well, we won't be
racist here. Okay, good goal.
But what does that mean? Whatdoes it look like? What can
people do what people do
Zoran Stojkovic (25:56):
to talk about actionable,
Rita Sever (25:58):
actionable steps like will not tolerate micro
aggressive comments here?
Zoran Stojkovic (26:04):
What does that mean? What does micro aggressive
comments mean? And training
Rita Sever (26:08):
on that? Because micro aggressive comments or
comments that might soundneutral, but they have a
stereotype in them or adenigration in them? So tell
saying to a black person that,well, you really articulate,
that's a my progressive comment,because it is, is built on the
(26:29):
assumption that black peopledon't talk good English. And so
that during trainings aboutthat, so people understand about
implicit bias, but havingconcrete actionable guidelines
about what's okay and what'snot, and then acting on them.
That's the third thing, thatonce you make, get people on the
(26:53):
same page about how we're goingto act in our culture, then
responding when people don't doit, one of the ways to
absolutely not walk your talk isto say you are gonna follow
these guidelines. And thensomeone who doesn't follow them
is promoted. So like the master,you know, is promoted. Somebody
(27:17):
who makes comments about womenor, you know, says inappropriate
comments, or flirts and doesn'ttake no for an answer. And
instead of being reprimanded,they're promoted, because
they're moneymakers, or whateverthe situation is. So I think
(27:40):
those are three really importantthings to monitor your
demographics, have clearguidelines, and follow up on
those guidelines make them real
Zoran Stojkovic (27:52):
interesting, because I mean, so looking at
the demographic, you can, that'spretty easy to do, creating
these guidelines and followingthrough on them, that one might
be a harder change. Whereas thefirst one, it's really easy to
go down the list of employeesand oh, here's the demographics,
the ages, the this the that thesexual orientations, you're
(28:13):
talking about this implicitbias. And I think there's a
great tool. It's Harvard,Harvard University. And it's a
test you can take online toidentify your blind spots and
implicit bias, because they sayit's not a matter of if you have
them, everybody has them. That'sjust, it's human nature to have
them. So identifying them andbecoming aware of them, you can
(28:36):
actually do something aboutthem. So I always think that's
the first step is awareness.
Yeah, and
Rita Sever (28:43):
maybe those the two steps of identifying the actions
and following through on them,maybe those are secondary steps,
because probably the first stepwould be along the lines of what
you're saying, I'm doingtraining, and then having actual
discussions about how thosetrainings relate to what we do
(29:05):
here. So those probably are morepreliminary important steps
before you start trying todefine your culture.
Zoran Stojkovic (29:14):
Just want to relate back to something you
said a little bit earlier aroundbelonging, belonging, this is
one of those three basicpsychological needs DCN. Ryan
identified. It was in the 80swas a the ABC the autonomy, so
having a freedom to choose andto decide. So it's that I've
(29:35):
heard it called differently, butit's that empowered execution. I
own this project and I decidehow to do it and I get to choose
I'm not micromanaged. There'sthat belongingness or
relatedness and it's do I feel apart of this glue group? And for
that one, I think the hearingthat one that one reminds me a
lot of inclusion and equity andin that environment and culture
(30:00):
within the group and the team.
And then competence. So am Ileveling up my skills? Or is
this tub way too hard for me? Isit? Is it a good match? I don't
know if you've heard of the flowchannel, but is it a good match
of skill to challenge because ifskill is too high and challenge
is too low, people get bored.
(30:22):
But if challenge is too high,and like if the challenge is way
higher than the skills, peopleget anxious, disengaged, so
there's got to be a good andit's not as simple as that.
Because sometimes work, it'shard to get a gauge on that. But
those three basic psychologicalneeds are huge. And it's, I
(30:43):
mean, I think they those guyscovered a lot of what leaders
need as well.
Rita Sever (30:49):
That's great. Yeah, I hadn't heard about them. I
love hearing that. Wonderful.
And, yeah, the belonging interms of equity is not just that
you are part of it, but that youcan be fully yourself and you
belong.
Zoran Stojkovic (31:04):
Fully yourself.
I love that. So that thatauthenticity being yourself. And
to do that you need, I think ittakes some self exploration as
well, because I think identityis this thing that we play with
our whole lives, isn't it, andit changes when we change jobs.
And sometimes, maybe someone'sidentity is attached to their
work. And they pick a differentline of work. I know that's been
(31:25):
happening a lot more in the pastyear, since COVID. Companies are
and people companies and noticethat people started shifting
industries and lines of work,which is cool to see as well. So
read every episode, I get aquestion from one of our
listeners, this one comes fromCarolyn trono, who's the
(31:46):
Director of Quality sport atsport for life society. And
Carolyn asked, How do youidentify where initiatives or
specific investments are neededto achieve equity? And who is
responsible for that in theorganization?
Rita Sever (32:04):
I think you identify where to invest and what you
need to do, by listening to yourstaff. Do an engagement survey,
do an equity survey? have focusgroups have interviews? And find
(32:27):
out where there are gaps? As Imentioned before, the other
thing would be looking at yourdemographics? Where are you
falling behind? And how do youneed to proceed. So that will
give both of those togetherwould give you foods about where
you need to invest? And thenwho's responsible? Leadership?
(32:49):
Absolutely there. I mean, HR, ifthere is an HR department, they
will probably be the ones whoenact it. But the without the
leadership support and buy in,it's not gonna go anywhere.
Zoran Stojkovic (33:03):
Okay, so engagement surveys, focus
groups, so that listening thatyou've talked about before, and
then it's check yourdemographics. So let me put you
in a situation what if theLeadership isn't doing anything
about it.
Rita Sever (33:15):
So that's where there needs to be some vocal
proponents who are ready to pushback and say, Hey, we put this
statement on our website, andwe're not doing anything about
it, we need to either take thestatement down and be who we
are, or we need to really stepup and do some hard work,
(33:39):
because the fact that we haven'tdone anything proves that we
need to do something, you know,it's hard to be the person and
do that. And it may be somebodyexternal who has to say that,
but somebody needs to basicallycall them on the disconnect.
Zoran Stojkovic (33:55):
So you're saying the corporate NOD is not
a good idea? Speaker? Exactly.
Great. Wow, Rita, you've shareda lot of different nuggets. And
I know a lot of them are comefrom your book, Leading for
justice, supervision, HR andculture. Tell us a little bit
about the book.
Rita Sever (34:14):
So the book is, first of all, it's very short
segments. So you can read them,like three or four minutes, take
in an idea and then go back towork and think about how you
could apply it. There's alsosegments at the end of every
section that are basically makeit your own is what I call it,
(34:37):
discussion questions to help theteam talk about how are we doing
in this? So overall, those threefocuses are woven throughout it,
supervision, HR and culture. Andit's about practical tools to
walk the talk of the equity andinclusion.
Zoran Stojkovic (34:57):
Boom, practical tools. That's what leaders need.
They don't need more theory theydon't. And then it's about
actually applying that in in away that makes sense within that
context. Awesome. So leading forjustice, I'm going to put that
in the show notes. I'll put alink to where people can buy,
buy the book, and where canpeople connect with you?
Rita Sever (35:20):
I am at supervision matters.com. That's my website.
And you can reach me throughthere. And I am happy to think
and talk about this with people.
I really think it's one of thecritical issues of our time
right now.
Zoran Stojkovic (35:39):
It is it is for sure. I'll put the website and
all of that in the show notes aswell. And it is it is a critical
issue for sure. And I thinkculture and supervision have
been done in a specific way forso long. That there needs to be
a shift, there needs to be anupgrade, because we're working
on this old operating system.
And culture and society havechanged and are it's great to
(36:01):
see that society is asking formore there is active leaders and
activists, both within companiesand outside causing some of that
those shifts, any partingthoughts,
Rita Sever (36:15):
when you take this on, it isn't just about what you
do externally, in yourorganization. It's also about
how you show up. So some of theI have a chapter in the book
about self awareness. So it'salso you've got to be willing to
look at how you're replicatingthe status quo or disrupting the
(36:35):
status quo to dance equity.
Zoran Stojkovic (36:43):
I learned a lot from the conversation with Rita.
But if there's one thing I wantyou to take away, it's this
every team has hidden rules thatgovern how people and behave.
Those hidden rules are like aninvisible handshake that new
members must agree to if theywant to be part of the group,
and belong. Once you're aware ofthese hidden rules, find a way
to question and change the toxicones that exclude people create
(37:05):
silos and lower productivitythat will harness equity in your
team and build a connectedculture. Join us next time for a
conversation with Mark Shapiro,CEO and President of the Toronto
Blue Jays as we deep dive intohow he recruits talented people,
how to deal with toxic starperformers, and what he has in
store for the Blue Jays culturein the next five years.
(37:31):
Hey, thanks for listening tocultivate your culture. I hope
you enjoyed our deep dive intohow to level up the
relationships and environment tocultivate your team's culture.
If you enjoyed this episode,share it with someone in your
life, leave a rating andsubscribe. Visit
KI zero.ca/podcast to get extraresources and join our email
list. A huge shout out toteriyaki from earbuds for
(37:54):
producing the music for thisshow. And to Kate Lovett and
Silvio Canalla parola forhelping produce and promote the
show. Cultivate your culture isproduced by Keizo, a leadership
coaching organization helpingteams to get the results they
want so that they can positivelyimpact the world. To learn more
about the services Keizer canprovide for your team, please
check out our website at Kzero.ca/team. See you again next
(38:16):
week.
Hey, what's going on and welcome to
cultivate your culture. Thisshow, this podcast is where we
decode how leaders can createenvironments where their teams
do their best work and flourish.
Our guests are pioneers in teamdynamics and culture from the
worlds of business, military andsport. Hear them shares simple,
(00:23):
straightforward techniques thatyou could use with your team to
set up, evolve and measureculture. With over 92,000 hours
spent working. Let's focus onthe relationships and the
results will follow. I'm yourhost, Zoran Stojkovic edge, and
I help people build habits andbehaviors that unleash their
inner greatness so that they cancontribute positively to the
world. Now, let's get intotoday's episode.
Rita Sever (00:51):
Are there people who are shut out of the most
important meetings? Are therepeople who are eating lunch
alone, you know, just payattention just start with
Zoran Stojkovic (01:02):
that's Rita Seaver, founder of supervision
matters. She coachesorganizations on how to improve
culture supervision, and HRwhich boosts effectiveness. With
an MA in OrganizationalPsychology, Rita is taught at
the University of San Franciscoand Sonoma State University in
California. Her new book leadingfor justice supervision, HR and
(01:22):
culture is a practical look athow we build justice
organizations that areconnected, efficient and
resilient. Today, we're going tohear from Rita on how you can
harness equity in your team andorganization, what hidden rules
are and how to break down thetoxic ones, and how to tailor
recruiting practices to hirepeople who behave in ways that
promote equity. Something Inoticed in this episode is how
(01:44):
important objective observationis. And that's something
everyone can do. Payingattention to what colleagues are
saying how they're behaving, andthe quality of relationships
allows awareness to build.
That's step one, in making anychange to culture. And that's
why I'm so excited for you guysto hear from Rita. And that's
coming up next. How do youdefine equity?
Rita Sever (02:07):
So equity is about fairness, it's about giving
people what they need to feelincluded, and to feel like
they're being treated well. It'sdifferent than equality,
equality may look this, it doeslook the same. That's the
definition of equality is you'retreating people the same. But
(02:31):
people don't need the samethings. There are historical
tests, for example, that werethe same people were treated the
same in terms of you have topass this test to get a job. But
then it was determined thatthere was an impact that
affected different groups ofpeople differently. And so
(02:51):
that's the difference betweenequality and equity, equity,
make sure there is a way forwardfor everyone.
Zoran Stojkovic (02:57):
What I'm hearing is there is a
difference. Equality isn't likewe don't actually want true
equality, we want equity is whatI'm hearing,
Rita Sever (03:07):
right? And quality is a step on the way to equity,
because equality isacknowledging there's a problem,
and we want to fix it. But thenwe need to go be on that to ask
what people actually need. Howdo we give people the same
opportunity?
Zoran Stojkovic (03:25):
And presumably both equality and equity impact
culture? And in your book, youtalk about hidden rules, right?
So can you give us a fewexamples of how hidden rules
impact culture,
Rita Sever (03:36):
the one I think that is most telling, and it isn't
specifically an equity example,but I think it's a powerful one
is say, you're a new staffmember, and you go to a meeting,
and the boss proposes a plan andsays, anybody have any questions
or want to challenge anythingI've said, and you're eager to
(03:59):
jump in, and you raise your handand you say, I'm concerned about
ABCD, and E. And then there'stotal silence. And after the
fact, you realize that thehidden rule is that that was a
rhetorical question, that theboss did not really want any
challenges. So that's the thingwith hidden roles. It's
(04:21):
something that everybody knows,unless you're new, or you're not
part of the in group. Hiddenrules mean that you either know
them or you're judged by them.
And so that's one example. Ainsidious one and a tricky one
in terms of equity, is what kindof small talk is allowed. Nobody
(04:42):
has rules about what you cantalk about. And yeah, I suppose
you know, the way it plays outthe hidden rule is that straight
people can talk about theirfamily and their partners. But
if a gay person talks abouttheir partner and when They did
or their wedding plans. There's,again, silence for people leave
(05:03):
the room. I went to one companyonce where it was very clear,
there was a lot of employees whowere middle aged women. And they
talked very freely about theirhormones and menopause. And, you
know, it wasn't, everybodywasn't comfortable, but it was
accepted. And then at one point,a trans man joined the group,
(05:27):
and he started joining intalking about his hormones. And
that was not okay. So thatthat's the way that input packs
culture is at its most people,people get the message through
these hidden rules, whether theyare truly welcome. Or they're
just sort of there to get theirnumbers up. And in terms of
(05:50):
performance, in that firstexample, that person who jumped
in, is going to be very hesitantto be involved in the future.
And it's going to impact there'scertainly not going to be a lot
of innovation in that company.
When the question is rhetorical.
How could we do thisdifferently?
Zoran Stojkovic (06:11):
Interesting. So these hidden, I've heard this
explained in different ways, butI love your language, because
it's so palpable, it's so simplehidden rules. I've heard about
the invisible handshake. So wedo this invisible handshake. And
that's what you agreed to. Andit really sounds like social
norms. Right? Exactly. And thesethese group norms that are part
(06:34):
of, maybe they're not thewriting on the wall, but you
will learn it as you go. Maybethere's a specific word that
that is okay, or isn't okay. Ormaybe there's, yeah, that that's
kind of what I'm thinking of onething that really caught my
attention was your phrase of gettheir numbers up? Can you
(06:56):
explain what you mean by that,and why that's significant for
equity and culture.
Rita Sever (07:00):
Some organizations want to want to be diverse, or
at least want to look diverse.
And so they will hire people wholook different, who aren't
white, who aren't straight,whatever, who are immigrants,
they may include people, butthey don't really welcome them,
(07:21):
they get their numbers up. Sothey can say, Yes, we have a
diverse staff. But they don'tchange the way they do anything.
So the predominant dominantculture, those hidden rules are
still very much in force. Andactively, although suddenly
exclude people,
Zoran Stojkovic (07:41):
you're saying that's worse, it's worse to hire
somebody just because they'redifferent. If you're not
actually embedding them, withinthe culture and letting who they
are, whatever that means,however, they're, they're
different and unique impact theculture of the organization,
Rita Sever (07:58):
right? Because you are not setting them up for
success. Because how can you besuccessful if you're not truly
included, if you're not in themeetings that matter if you
don't get to go to the happyhours, all that kind of thing,
where often, you know,relationships are built, and
sometimes decisions are made. Soit is a way that companies
(08:22):
sometimes go through the motion,but don't really change to be
what they purport they want tobe.
Zoran Stojkovic (08:30):
That work outside of work, those work
conversation outside of work,you're saying that's where some
of the key decisions are made.
And true equity would meaninviting everybody,
Rita Sever (08:41):
and not just inviting, but they feel welcome.
They feel they want to go, theyfeel so much a part of the group
that yeah, they want to go hangout. And not just because they
they better not say now,
Zoran Stojkovic (08:55):
what I've experienced, and in my work in
organizations, on culture, andsome of the teams that I've been
a part of, sometimes these silosstart to pop up. Sometimes the
silos are actually cultural. Sopeople from, you know, people
from the same tribe sticktogether, which makes sense. So
(09:18):
is there anything that can bedone to connect those bridges
between those silos, so thateverybody's noses are pointing
in the same direction, butpeople are not losing that
individuality. And they stillmaintain that connection within
the group that they feel mostwelcoming? What can be done?
Rita Sever (09:38):
The first thing is, of course, as you said, pointing
your nose in the same directionmaking sure everyone is on the
same team in terms of what arewe here for? Where are we going,
what are our values? How are wegoing to accomplish this? So
that's the first thing nothaving artificial barriers
between the fiscal departmentand Mark Killing department for
(10:01):
example. And the second thing isactively working to break down
those those feelings of tribalillness at at work, you may
still have your own friends wholook like you in your off hours.
But at work, you want to buildthe bridges. So people are
(10:22):
connected, that people feel safevoicing their both their
personal experience whenappropriate, and their ideas and
suggestions in terms of work.
Zoran Stojkovic (10:35):
Right. So you're saying it's very
important. And I'd argue thatdiversity as a competitive
advantage?
Rita Sever (10:42):
Absolutely. Yeah.
When there are more ideas on thetable and more ways of doing
things, and people can seethemselves in your company. And
you're walking the talk. Soyou're in alignment with what
you say your values are, peopleare going to flock to your
business.
Zoran Stojkovic (11:02):
Okay, so let me give you a scenario here. So
imagine, imagine you're in ateam where people believe in and
support equality, what actionsshould a leader take to ensure a
behavior shift that cultivates aculture of equality? The
leadership, I'm talking aboutthe leaders, leadership group,
(11:22):
the key decision makers, whatcan they do?
Rita Sever (11:24):
I think the first thing first and most important
thing they need to do is payattention to see how the culture
is playing out in terms ofdemographics and inclusion. Are
there people who are shut out ofthe most important meetings? Are
there people who are eatinglunch alone? You know, just pay
(11:46):
attention to start with, look atboth what's happening in front
of you, and that your policiesand practices are you doing them
the same way you've done themfor years or decades, if so, you
need to shake things up. Becausewhat the best practices have
(12:06):
been, historically have excludedpeople. So if you're still
hiring in the same way you did20 years ago, you're probably
getting the same kind of peopleyou did. And if you want a
diverse staff, you're not goingto get it that way. So that
paying attention to what'shappening around you paying
(12:27):
attention to your practices. Andmost of all, paying attention
and listening to the people youdo hire, who bring diverse
experiences, if they come to youand say I was really
uncomfortable when somebody saidthis in the meeting, don't just
brush it off and say, Oh, theydidn't mean anything by it. Say
(12:50):
what happened? What did what didthat feel like? How did it make
you feel uncomfortable? And thenact on that? If you have ideas
of how things need to bedifferent than make it real, not
just we should be nicer to eachother. But concrete? How do we
(13:13):
expect people to act?
Zoran Stojkovic (13:15):
Listening?
Okay, so Listening, payingattention doing something about
situations that people come toyou for? And I mean, I don't
think this, I think sometimespeople are not huge fans of HR,
or the ops team or whatever itis. And they don't trust them,
because they think they're sortof like the spies for the CEO or
whatever, of the company. Sosometimes those conversations
(13:38):
happen. It's like the aftermeeting meeting or in sport,
they call it the athletewhispers. And it's like, Well,
okay, when the coach is donetalking, what are the athletes
saying? And so that's where someof those conversations happen.
But then those are not alwaysbrought to somebody's attention,
especially if the system and thetrust and the psychological
safety within the company, arenot set up in a way that those
(13:59):
come to fruition. So then, withthis, I have a similar question
what what actions can nonleaders take to ensure a
behavior shift that cultivates aculture of equality within an
organization, and we're talkingabout an organization that
already believes in so talksabout believing in and supports
equality? It's on the website,
Rita Sever (14:22):
I think supervisors at any level can have a really
big impact on their staff. I'mall about supervision matters is
the name of my business. Andsupervisors have the most direct
impact on the day to dayexperience of their staff. So
certainly, they can take directaction. But even if you're a
(14:43):
colleague, you can still listen.
You can still pay attention. Youcan speak up when comments are
made that are disrespectful. Youcan tell another colleague that
you know that assumption youmade about our other Holly was
really not fair. And I want tobring us together. So we can all
talk about what happened, or Iwant to bring us together, so we
(15:06):
can build a stronger team. Soyou can still help make those
bridges that get peopleconnected and talking to each
other.
Zoran Stojkovic (15:17):
That's a good suggestion. I think sometimes
that's harder to do, especially,especially with the shift to
online. In the past two years orso, I think it's been tough for
to see and hear what the aftermeeting meeting is, and to check
in with people organically andto see the body language to see
(15:39):
the morale. You know, a lot ofthese meetings, people's cameras
might be off there, you know,it's the communication happens
through slack or throughMicrosoft Teams, or whatever it
is, for companies or, or forteams, it might be a group chat.
And so I mean, it's, it's just alittle bit tricky. trickier to
measure that and to FigureFigure out what's, what's not
(16:02):
going well, or what's goingwell, in that setting.
Absolutely.
Rita Sever (16:05):
And it has to be a very proactive, initiative to do
it, because otherwise, you'renot gonna hear what you need to
hear. So it building in time forvirtual happy hours for virtual
conversations, checking people,all of that really makes a
difference. And I want to goback and say one more thing
(16:26):
about what a leader can do,because in response to what you
said, about HR not beingtrusted, I know that's true. And
that is a strong step a leadercan take is build an HR
department that people trust.
And that really serves thepurpose of supporting staff not
just being the tool formanagement,
Zoran Stojkovic (16:49):
those changing the title to operations team
does that. What does that do? Isthat a piece of it?
Rita Sever (16:56):
Sure, that can be because HR does have such a,
unfortunately, such a badreputation. You know, sometimes
the titles never like ChiefPeople Officer. I don't know if
that changes anything, butfinding a way to rebrand HR. So
it is on the side of staff, notjust a tool of management.
Zoran Stojkovic (17:19):
Yeah. When I think of HR, I just think of
Toby from the office.
Rita Sever (17:26):
Anybody?
Zoran Stojkovic (17:27):
Yes? Yes. Yeah, for sure. So you've obviously in
the office?
Rita Sever (17:31):
Yes.
Zoran Stojkovic (17:34):
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(17:58):
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(18:19):
can use on a weekly basis. Ifyou're a leader who wants to
provide the best possiblesupport for your team's culture,
check out inner logic.com. Okay,do you think Michael was a good
manager?
Rita Sever (18:34):
In some ways he was because he had relationships
with everybody in most ways hewasn't. But I think he, he, his
heart was in the right place.
And he built connections thatcarried him through a lot of his
goofiness and problematicbehaviors
Zoran Stojkovic (18:57):
that that show and I I agree with you, I think
he was actually think he caredquite a lot. And he did his
best. And like when you see whenthe different managers came in,
like when Will Ferrell hischaracter came in and there was
Andy Bernard, I think was, yeah,it's like, it's kind of
interesting to see. That'sreally when they realized how
(19:18):
awesome Michael was, even thoughhe was kind of weird and quirky
and very inappropriate. Likemost companies, most companies
of today, you'd be gone for someof the things that he did.
Rita Sever (19:28):
Exactly. Thinking of the harassment show.
Zoran Stojkovic (19:31):
Yeah. So would you now when we think about
these organizations, right.
Great show, by the way, foranybody who hasn't seen the
show, it's it's fascinating,super funny. I think it's on
Netflix as well. Some of theseorganizations actually walk
their talk, what are sometangible signs or metrics that
(19:53):
an organization is walking theirtalk in terms of x equity and
inclusion.
Rita Sever (20:02):
So the most obvious is that they have a very diverse
staff. So they look diverse. Andthey look diverse at every level
of the organization, not justnew hires, not just line staff,
but up and down theorganization, and that all staff
are engaged. They're connected.
You know, if you talk tosomebody, and you say, how do
(20:27):
you like working here, and theysay, it's great, I feel so
excited to come to work.
Obviously, that's a good sign onany indicator. But it is on
equity too, because one of thethings we're going for with
equity is belonging, that's akey component of an equitable
(20:47):
culture, people feel like theybelong. And, you know, trans man
has the same voice in theorganization in terms of
presence that your suburban momhas, that every voice is
included. Another sign that Iactually look for, is do their
(21:12):
job announcements have thephrase or equivalent experience.
So we would like people to havea BA or masters, but we will
accept equivalent experience,because that tells me that they
acknowledge that not everyonehas an opportunity to get a
degree. And not every jobrequires a degree. So that in
(21:36):
itself is an equitable practice,opening the door and saying you
still have to be able to do thejob. But we won't exclude you
just based on this piece ofpaper.
Zoran Stojkovic (21:47):
Number one, you sing, it's the way that job
postings are put out. And so thereason that's important is
because that communicatesinclusion and equity. I mean, if
an organization or a team says,Hey, we're looking for great
verbal communication, well, whatif somebody is deaf, but they
could still do the work reallywell, that's not very inclusive,
(22:10):
that person, I think, in someways, like when I look at the
job landscape and the jobpostings of today, there's still
some ways that we have to golike that that will be one
example, depending on thecompany. The second one you
mentioned, is, is around no orequivalent experience,
Rita Sever (22:27):
right. And that doesn't mean that people don't
have degrees that only you know,white, straight people have
degrees, everybody has degrees.
But you are excluding peoplewhen you don't include that. So
you're welcome every person whomight be able to do the job. And
then you go from there.
Zoran Stojkovic (22:48):
How do you think I'm thinking about this
now, because the interviewprocess isn't like Miss hiring.
I've heard this phrase from oneof my mentors, Miss hiring is a
$5 trillion industry. It's a $5trillion mistake that you know,
in North America kind of thing.
So what can organizations do inthat interview process? Or in
(23:10):
that filtering of the resumes orapplications to ensure they're
bringing in people who havethose values of equity and
inclusion? If that if that is ifthey want to be walking the
talk?
Rita Sever (23:25):
Absolutely. That's a great question. And I think it
is about looking at wherethey've worked before. Are those
companies that have a goodreputation? And it's about
including a couple of questionsin the interview process about?
What have you done to advanceequity in your work? How has
(23:49):
your commitment to justiceinfluenced your work? You know,
if you really have that value,then ask people to tell you what
they've done. How do you supportdiverse teams? What's different
in your leadership in terms ofdiverse teams than non diverse
(24:12):
teams? Some of those questionscan really be helpful to hear
where people are, it's not thatthere's a right or wrong answer,
but you get a sense of havepeople thought about this.
Zoran Stojkovic (24:23):
I like your question of when in the past,
have you done like, tell me astory of what you've done to
advance justice or equity orinclusion in your organization?
Before we get into our listenerquestion. I have one more
question that I'm reallyinterested in and you talk about
a lot of concrete steps anorganization can take in your in
(24:45):
your book leading for justice.
What are like what are the topthree concrete steps an
organization can take to reallyoperate operationalize the value
of equity?
Rita Sever (24:56):
Um, so one is looking at demographics. Who do
you hire? Who do you promote?
How does your compensation playout? That is a very tongue Creek
metric to tell you if you areoperating an equitable
workforce. And if you're notfixing it, making adjustments,
(25:17):
and setting a goal to movethings forward. The other two
steps that I think are reallyimportant, besides what I've
already mentioned, is beingconcrete about what you expect
in terms of day to day behaviorin your workplace. If you are
(25:37):
really wanting to build anequitable workforce, what does
that look like? You can't justsay something well, we won't be
racist here. Okay, good goal.
But what does that mean? Whatdoes it look like? What can
people do what people do
Zoran Stojkovic (25:56):
to talk about actionable,
Rita Sever (25:58):
actionable steps like will not tolerate micro
aggressive comments here?
Zoran Stojkovic (26:04):
What does that mean? What does micro aggressive
comments mean? And training
Rita Sever (26:08):
on that? Because micro aggressive comments or
comments that might soundneutral, but they have a
stereotype in them or adenigration in them? So tell
saying to a black person that,well, you really articulate,
that's a my progressive comment,because it is, is built on the
(26:29):
assumption that black peopledon't talk good English. And so
that during trainings aboutthat, so people understand about
implicit bias, but havingconcrete actionable guidelines
about what's okay and what'snot, and then acting on them.
That's the third thing, thatonce you make, get people on the
(26:53):
same page about how we're goingto act in our culture, then
responding when people don't doit, one of the ways to
absolutely not walk your talk isto say you are gonna follow
these guidelines. And thensomeone who doesn't follow them
is promoted. So like the master,you know, is promoted. Somebody
(27:17):
who makes comments about womenor, you know, says inappropriate
comments, or flirts and doesn'ttake no for an answer. And
instead of being reprimanded,they're promoted, because
they're moneymakers, or whateverthe situation is. So I think
(27:40):
those are three really importantthings to monitor your
demographics, have clearguidelines, and follow up on
those guidelines make them real
Zoran Stojkovic (27:52):
interesting, because I mean, so looking at
the demographic, you can, that'spretty easy to do, creating
these guidelines and followingthrough on them, that one might
be a harder change. Whereas thefirst one, it's really easy to
go down the list of employeesand oh, here's the demographics,
the ages, the this the that thesexual orientations, you're
(28:13):
talking about this implicitbias. And I think there's a
great tool. It's Harvard,Harvard University. And it's a
test you can take online toidentify your blind spots and
implicit bias, because they sayit's not a matter of if you have
them, everybody has them. That'sjust, it's human nature to have
them. So identifying them andbecoming aware of them, you can
(28:36):
actually do something aboutthem. So I always think that's
the first step is awareness.
Yeah, and
Rita Sever (28:43):
maybe those the two steps of identifying the actions
and following through on them,maybe those are secondary steps,
because probably the first stepwould be along the lines of what
you're saying, I'm doingtraining, and then having actual
discussions about how thosetrainings relate to what we do
(29:05):
here. So those probably are morepreliminary important steps
before you start trying todefine your culture.
Zoran Stojkovic (29:14):
Just want to relate back to something you
said a little bit earlier aroundbelonging, belonging, this is
one of those three basicpsychological needs DCN. Ryan
identified. It was in the 80swas a the ABC the autonomy, so
having a freedom to choose andto decide. So it's that I've
(29:35):
heard it called differently, butit's that empowered execution. I
own this project and I decidehow to do it and I get to choose
I'm not micromanaged. There'sthat belongingness or
relatedness and it's do I feel apart of this glue group? And for
that one, I think the hearingthat one that one reminds me a
lot of inclusion and equity andin that environment and culture
(30:00):
within the group and the team.
And then competence. So am Ileveling up my skills? Or is
this tub way too hard for me? Isit? Is it a good match? I don't
know if you've heard of the flowchannel, but is it a good match
of skill to challenge because ifskill is too high and challenge
is too low, people get bored.
(30:22):
But if challenge is too high,and like if the challenge is way
higher than the skills, peopleget anxious, disengaged, so
there's got to be a good andit's not as simple as that.
Because sometimes work, it'shard to get a gauge on that. But
those three basic psychologicalneeds are huge. And it's, I
(30:43):
mean, I think they those guyscovered a lot of what leaders
need as well.
Rita Sever (30:49):
That's great. Yeah, I hadn't heard about them. I
love hearing that. Wonderful.
And, yeah, the belonging interms of equity is not just that
you are part of it, but that youcan be fully yourself and you
belong.
Zoran Stojkovic (31:04):
Fully yourself.
I love that. So that thatauthenticity being yourself. And
to do that you need, I think ittakes some self exploration as
well, because I think identityis this thing that we play with
our whole lives, isn't it, andit changes when we change jobs.
And sometimes, maybe someone'sidentity is attached to their
work. And they pick a differentline of work. I know that's been
(31:25):
happening a lot more in the pastyear, since COVID. Companies are
and people companies and noticethat people started shifting
industries and lines of work,which is cool to see as well. So
read every episode, I get aquestion from one of our
listeners, this one comes fromCarolyn trono, who's the
(31:46):
Director of Quality sport atsport for life society. And
Carolyn asked, How do youidentify where initiatives or
specific investments are neededto achieve equity? And who is
responsible for that in theorganization?
Rita Sever (32:04):
I think you identify where to invest and what you
need to do, by listening to yourstaff. Do an engagement survey,
do an equity survey? have focusgroups have interviews? And find
(32:27):
out where there are gaps? As Imentioned before, the other
thing would be looking at yourdemographics? Where are you
falling behind? And how do youneed to proceed. So that will
give both of those togetherwould give you foods about where
you need to invest? And thenwho's responsible? Leadership?
(32:49):
Absolutely there. I mean, HR, ifthere is an HR department, they
will probably be the ones whoenact it. But the without the
leadership support and buy in,it's not gonna go anywhere.
Zoran Stojkovic (33:03):
Okay, so engagement surveys, focus
groups, so that listening thatyou've talked about before, and
then it's check yourdemographics. So let me put you
in a situation what if theLeadership isn't doing anything
about it.
Rita Sever (33:15):
So that's where there needs to be some vocal
proponents who are ready to pushback and say, Hey, we put this
statement on our website, andwe're not doing anything about
it, we need to either take thestatement down and be who we
are, or we need to really stepup and do some hard work,
(33:39):
because the fact that we haven'tdone anything proves that we
need to do something, you know,it's hard to be the person and
do that. And it may be somebodyexternal who has to say that,
but somebody needs to basicallycall them on the disconnect.
Zoran Stojkovic (33:55):
So you're saying the corporate NOD is not
a good idea? Speaker? Exactly.
Great. Wow, Rita, you've shareda lot of different nuggets. And
I know a lot of them are comefrom your book, Leading for
justice, supervision, HR andculture. Tell us a little bit
about the book.
Rita Sever (34:14):
So the book is, first of all, it's very short
segments. So you can read them,like three or four minutes, take
in an idea and then go back towork and think about how you
could apply it. There's alsosegments at the end of every
section that are basically makeit your own is what I call it,
(34:37):
discussion questions to help theteam talk about how are we doing
in this? So overall, those threefocuses are woven throughout it,
supervision, HR and culture. Andit's about practical tools to
walk the talk of the equity andinclusion.
Zoran Stojkovic (34:57):
Boom, practical tools. That's what leaders need.
They don't need more theory theydon't. And then it's about
actually applying that in in away that makes sense within that
context. Awesome. So leading forjustice, I'm going to put that
in the show notes. I'll put alink to where people can buy,
buy the book, and where canpeople connect with you?
Rita Sever (35:20):
I am at supervision matters.com. That's my website.
And you can reach me throughthere. And I am happy to think
and talk about this with people.
I really think it's one of thecritical issues of our time
right now.
Zoran Stojkovic (35:39):
It is it is for sure. I'll put the website and
all of that in the show notes aswell. And it is it is a critical
issue for sure. And I thinkculture and supervision have
been done in a specific way forso long. That there needs to be
a shift, there needs to be anupgrade, because we're working
on this old operating system.
And culture and society havechanged and are it's great to
(36:01):
see that society is asking formore there is active leaders and
activists, both within companiesand outside causing some of that
those shifts, any partingthoughts,
Rita Sever (36:15):
when you take this on, it isn't just about what you
do externally, in yourorganization. It's also about
how you show up. So some of theI have a chapter in the book
about self awareness. So it'salso you've got to be willing to
look at how you're replicatingthe status quo or disrupting the
(36:35):
status quo to dance equity.
Zoran Stojkovic (36:43):
I learned a lot from the conversation with Rita.
But if there's one thing I wantyou to take away, it's this
every team has hidden rules thatgovern how people and behave.
Those hidden rules are like aninvisible handshake that new
members must agree to if theywant to be part of the group,
and belong. Once you're aware ofthese hidden rules, find a way
to question and change the toxicones that exclude people create
(37:05):
silos and lower productivitythat will harness equity in your
team and build a connectedculture. Join us next time for a
conversation with Mark Shapiro,CEO and President of the Toronto
Blue Jays as we deep dive intohow he recruits talented people,
how to deal with toxic starperformers, and what he has in
store for the Blue Jays culturein the next five years.
(37:31):
Hey, thanks for listening tocultivate your culture. I hope
you enjoyed our deep dive intohow to level up the
relationships and environment tocultivate your team's culture.
If you enjoyed this episode,share it with someone in your
life, leave a rating andsubscribe. Visit
KI zero.ca/podcast to get extraresources and join our email
list. A huge shout out toteriyaki from earbuds for
(37:54):
producing the music for thisshow. And to Kate Lovett and
Silvio Canalla parola forhelping produce and promote the
show. Cultivate your culture isproduced by Keizo, a leadership
coaching organization helpingteams to get the results they
want so that they can positivelyimpact the world. To learn more
about the services Keizer canprovide for your team, please
check out our website at Kzero.ca/team. See you again next
(38:16):
week.
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