January 21, 2021 • 52 mins
In this episode of Cultivate your Culture, we are joined by Susan Scott. Susan founded Fierce in 2001 after 13 years leading CEO think tanks and more than 10,000 hours of conversations with senior executives. Over the past two decades, she has shared her expertise with clients through her keynote presentations, TedX Talks, and award-winning books, Fierce Conversations: Achieving Success at Work and in Life, One Conversation at a Time, and Fierce Leadership: An Alternative to the Worst “Best” Practices of Business Today. She holds a Bachelor of Arts degree in English from Hobart and William Smith Colleges.
Susan is a popular and sought-after Fortune 100 public speaker, and renowned leadership development architect. Known for her bold yet practical approach to executive coaching and leadership development, Susan has been challenging people to say the things that are hard to say for over two decades. Connect with Susan via her website.
The host, Zoran Stojkovic believes that we are all born to flourish in work and life. Through his company, Kizo, he equips organizations and people with culture and mindset tools to reach full engagement through powerful workshops, memorable keynotes, and transformative individual consultations.
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Episode Transcript
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Zoran Stojkovic (00:03):
Hello, I'm your host Zoran Stojkovic and welcome
to cultivate your culture. Thispodcast we'll be discussing how
leaders can build connected highperforming teams and business in
sport using actionable tools,evidence based systems and
simple processes. Today on theshow, we have Susan Scott. Susan
(00:27):
founded fierce in 2001 after 13years, leading CEO think tanks
and more than 10,000 hours ofconversations with senior
executives. Over the past twodecades, she has shared her
expertise with clients throughher keynote presentations TEDx
talks, and award winning books,fierce conversations and fierce
(00:48):
leadership. She holds a Bachelorof Arts degree in English from
Hobart and William Smithcolleges, Susan is a popular and
sought after fortune 100 speakerand renowned leadership
development architect, known forher bold yet practical approach
to effective coaching andleadership development. Susan
has been challenging people tosay things that are hard to say
(01:10):
for over two decades. Susan,welcome to the show.
Susan Scott (01:14):
Thank you so much, Zoran.
Zoran Stojkovic (01:15):
I really enjoyed fierce conversations.
That was a book where I took alot of notes, I use that as I
went through the chapters, Iused it in my relationships,
personally, in my relationshipsat work in the work that I do in
consulting. And I've suggestedit over and over and over again,
(01:36):
like I got a lot out of thebook. And I know you've been to
Canada a couple of times.
Susan Scott (01:42):
well, it's not that far from Seattle, really? Just
straight shot up north
Zoran Stojkovic (01:47):
Straight shot up north. Do you want to tell us
a little bit about yourself?
Like, is there something thatI've missed? Is there any any
hobbies or passions that youhave outside of writing and
consulting?
Susan Scott (01:57):
Well, you heard my barking dogs in the background.
I love animals. I love animals,I love my dogs. During this
whole pandemic, they have beenfabulous companions. One thing I
would say, you know, you saidthat you've used what you read
in the book in your personalrelationships. And I have been
told that by so many people fromall over the world, that I am
(02:20):
now almost finished writing thethird and final book in the
fierce trilogy. And it wastitled fierce love. And it's
about those romanticrelationships, whether you're
married or living together,committed or whatever, just two
people up close and personal,trying to craft something
(02:42):
extraordinary. Because you know,love doesn't make itself we make
it or we fail to make it or weunmake it. It's not like God is
up there x machinee beingeverything in our lives,
certainly not the amount of lovewe have in our lives. So that's
up to us. And that's what thisthird book is about. And in
(03:04):
January, we will take it out tothe publishing world and see
what happens
Zoran Stojkovic (03:09):
January. That's exciting. I have Fierce
Leadership on the bookshelf.
It's one of the next books thatI'm going to be reading and then
your book reminded me of thefive languages of love. You
probably you've probably readthat one. So I'm really looking
forward to reading yours and andgetting more of those practical
tools and questions like I'vegotten from the first one.
Susan Scott (03:30):
That's great.
That's wonderful. Thank you.
Zoran Stojkovic (03:32):
So Susan, how, you know team culture is a
concept that's been it's beenaround forever, but it's really
hard to pinpoint. There's a lotof different definitions out
there, how would you define it?
Susan Scott (03:45):
You know, is are and when I think of culture, I
just immediately think ofrelationships. It's all about
the relationships, it's aboutyour relationship with your
organization, whether it's acompany or a team, you know, how
do you feel about this group ofpeople and what they're trying
to accomplish? Whether it's amission and vision or just their
(04:07):
goals? How do you feel aboutyour teammates, you know, what
is the, the level of yourrelationship with your
teammates, and your customers?
So if you're, you know, inSeattle, we've got the Seahawks,
and we've got the crackin and weare major raving fans. And so
the fans are a team's customersso to speak. And that
(04:30):
relationship, you know, what isthat relationship like? And it
just, I mean relationship, it'swhat you feel when you walk in
the door. It's what you feelwhen you meet up with your
teammates. It's what you feelwhen you anticipate the next
thing you guys are going to dotogether. And it's so it's, it's
an emotion, it's not a it's nota head based thing. It's emotion
(04:54):
and that's where the you know,Evidence based. So much of the
evidence that I use is simply myown, being alive and paying
attention to what's happening.
It's not, it's not a scientificstudy or anything, but you can
tell when you walk into anorganization or you walk into a
(05:16):
group of people who are doingsomething together, you can tell
within seconds, what the cultureis, and how they feel about one
another. And whether they'rejust faking it and tolerating,
or they really genuinely havegenuine affection and
appreciation for one another. Tome, that's what culture is. And
(05:37):
I know a lot of people woulddefine it very differently. But
I think our most valuablecurrency is not money, it is
relationship, it is thatemotional capital, which we
either acquire, or, or lose,squander one conversation at a
time. So the relationships areforged over time, one
(06:03):
conversation at a time. Andthat's what I, you know, after,
after all those years of workingwith CEOs and having all those
conversations, my gosh, withpeople who are leading every
kind of organization, you canimagine, from software, to
coffee, to manufacturing, tosports. I even did some work
(06:27):
with the Olympic team. Where wasI wasn't somewhere in Canada. I
know, I was I just don'tremember Montreal, actually, I
think I was in Montreal. Youknow, whatever the group of
people is, it's that it's thoserelationships in those
conversations. So what getstalked about in a in a, an
(06:48):
organization or team, how itgets talked about, and who is
invited to be a part of thatconversation determines what's
going to happen? And what's notgoing to happen?
Zoran Stojkovic (07:00):
Wow, Susan. So what I'm hearing you say is it's
really about the relationships,and the relationships are about
what we feel when we're witheach other. The emotions.
Susan Scott (07:09):
That's right.
That's right. And I think thatthe next frontier for
exponential growth for anyorganization, or any individual
does lie in the area of humanconnectivity. And so how
connected are we? Is it? Is itshallow? Are we sort of
waterskiing through therelationship? Or are we willing
to put on a tank, you know, andgo blue below the surface and
(07:33):
connect with one another at thatdeeper level, that's when we
really see one another, and wefeel seen. And I'll just back up
a little bit Zahran when I, whenI was working with the CEOs, I
had, I had two groups of noncompeting CEOs, and each group
had 15 to 16 at any given time.
(07:57):
And, and, and I would meet witheach one of them individually,
once a month, for two hours,sort of a come to God chat,
what's going on, and then eachof the groups would spend one
full day together to advise oneanother on their most pressing
issues. So you know, when they,what I noticed was when they
(08:20):
were asking themselves, how didwe lose that customer? Who
counted for 20% of our netprofit? or How did I lose that
key employee for whom I hadgreat plans? How is it that I've
lost the cohesiveness of myteam? And once in a while, how
did I How did I lose an 18 yearmarriage that I was not prepared
(08:43):
to lose? Well, you lost that youlost your customer, you lost
your team, you lost youremployee, you lost your
marriage, one failed, or onemissing conversation at a time.
And if you ask yourself, How didI gain that amazing, new client
(09:09):
that our competition would killfor? And how did I attract and
retain the most amazingemployees and teammates? How is
it that my team is reallydedicated to whatever we need to
do to accomplish our goals? Howis it that my personal
relationship is is a thing ofgreat joy to me? And how did I
(09:32):
get there? Well, they arrivedthere one successful
conversation at a time. So itwas just really clear that
conversations were the theribbon that ran through
everything.
Zoran Stojkovic (09:47):
Yeah, they absolutely are. And I mean,
culture cultivating a culture isimportant, but why do you think
it is important Susan and forbusiness and for sports teams?
Why should people be spendingresources and time and money on
taking time to get thoserelationships?
Susan Scott (10:06):
No, show me the culture in a company. And I can
tell you within minutes whetherthis company is going to, or
this team is going to goanywhere or not. I mean, the
culture. Somebody said, cultureeats strategy for breakfast. I
don't remember who said that.
But it was brilliant.
Zoran Stojkovic (10:23):
Peter Drucker, I think.
Susan Scott (10:25):
yeah, yeah. And that's such a good quote, it's
so true, you can have, and I sawthis happen, you can have
brilliant plans, fantasticstrategy, you can even have
great talent on the team, andyou're all dressed up and ready
to go. But if thoserelationships are not solid, if
(10:45):
there isn't that mutual respect,and shall I dare say, affection
for team members, then the firsttime something tough gets in the
way, things are going to startto fall apart. So for for an
(11:05):
organization or team to be ableto stand to withstand hardship,
there has to be something at thecore of that group of people
that will see them through this,like, here we are in this
pandemic, you know, there are,there are couples now who are
spending forced time together,and some are loving it, and some
(11:29):
are not loving it so much.
Because when we have to betogether, relationships
accelerate for good or bad, youknow, all the things that are
great about a relationship oramplified than all of the things
that aren't so great areamplified. So what is it, you
know, if you want to, if youwant to accomplish something,
you've got to have people whowill go with you, I remember, I
(11:52):
remember watching an absolutelybrilliant man come into a
company that sort of needed hisbrilliance. And he had an
amazing plan. It was so smart.
But he didn't, he didn't capturethe hearts of people at all.
(12:18):
They didn't really liking himall that much. Because mostly
because they didn't feel like heliked them, or really saw them
or really valued them, he wasall about here's the plan, you
take that heel, you take thathill, very clip, clip, you know.
And so eventually, where hewrote in on his white horse, he
rode right back out the backdoor on his white horse, because
(12:40):
nobody would follow him. Soculture, you can have everything
else wonderfully in place.
Perfect. And without a strongculture, you're going nowhere
very slowly, at great expense,sort of like sailing.
Zoran Stojkovic (13:05):
So you saying, Susan, what I'm hearing you say
is, it's important to have theculture for the team to actually
perform at a high level. And theleaders have to leaders are one
of the people that that wouldthat cultivate that culture. And
it's important for them to notjust look at the numbers and the
bottom line and the strategy andthe systems and processes, but
(13:28):
really look at this humanelement of it and, and the
emotional capital and developtheir own emotional capital.
Susan Scott (13:35):
yeah, I need to look at all of it. Obviously, we
do need the data, you know, wedo need the numbers and all of
that, we do need that. And weusually have somebody who
analyzes all of that for us andtells us, okay, here's how we're
trending, etc. And that'simportant. But there are other
things that are that areactually more important. Because
(13:58):
if you don't have those otherthings, these cultural things,
then the numbers will head inthe wrong direction for you at
some point. You know, sometimeswhen we're doing a training back
in the days, when we used to doin person trainings right now,
all of our training is virtual,of course. But people would come
into the room, you know, aclient, a company, and they'd be
(14:19):
looking around and they said,Well, wait a second. Where are
our leaders? I don't see any ofour leaders. Are they going to
go through this training?
Because we think this is great.
We think this is what we reallyneed. Where are our leaders? And
the leaders weren't there?
Because they didn't think theyneeded it. You know, they
thought well, I'm a leader. Lookat my title, look at my corner
office, look at my salary and mystock options. I must be pretty
(14:43):
cool. You know, I mean, I'veI've arrived, I don't need this
other stuff. And boy, they do.
And I remember one time therewas a leader in the room and He
was sitting right in the frontof the room. And we were talking
(15:05):
about the importance of actuallyhaving an exchange of ideas, not
just one person holding forthgiving some kind of a monologue,
you know? And he said, Oh, I'm,I'm always really interested in
what other people have to say.
And behind him. All of hisemployees were shaking their
they were me, shaking their headshaking their head. Oh, man. So
(15:26):
sometimes we just we don't, wewere not aware of our flaws or
imperfections.
Zoran Stojkovic (15:38):
Well, so let's say somebody is at a space where
they they understand what teamculture is, they buy into the
fact that it's important. Now,it's on what's the starting
place for cultivating culture?
Who has to be in thoseconversations, Susan?
Susan Scott (15:55):
It depends. So if we're talking about if there's a
thinking back to my CEO, ThinkTank days, if there is a problem
that needs solving, or a bigdecision that needs to be made,
or a strategy that needs to bedesigned, an opportunity that
needs to be evaluated, it'simportant to ask yourself, okay,
(16:17):
whose perspective? Would it beuseful for me to understand if
I'm the one who's going toultimately make the decision?
Whose perspective Do I need tounderstand so that I get it
right. And this is one of thebig differences between ordinary
leaders and fierce leaders, mostleaders want to be right. A
(16:37):
fierce leader wants to get itright for the team, for the
organization. And in order toget it right for everybody, I
really need to be thoughtfulabout whose perspective would be
very useful to invite in theroom. So not, not just the usual
suspects who else should bethere?
Zoran Stojkovic (16:56):
So is it not necessarily the leadership
group?
Susan Scott (16:59):
Sometimes it is, but it's not necessarily No. And
sometimes the leadership groupfeels it can feel a little
insecure, if they didn't getinvited to every single meeting.
But I would say to them, Look,you have, there are so many
important things that are onyour plate with your name on
them, I want to cut you someslack. This is not a meeting
where we have to have yourinput. You know, go ahead,
(17:20):
please focus on the things atthe very top of your to do list,
because that's that is yourgreat contribution to us. And
it's, it's, it's okay for theleaders to be there. But who
else? You know, I think about,there's a wonderful story about
Jack Welch, when they bought amanufacturing company, and I
(17:41):
don't remember what it was, butsome huge manufacturing company,
and he called a meeting of allof the employees in their
enormous warehouse. And he'sstanding with his microphone.
And he says, you know, we've gotsome problems to solve here,
some real challenges, and Ireally am open to your ideas.
And in the back way in the back.
There. I don't know how manypeople 1000 people in this
(18:04):
warehouse way in the back, thisguy is waving his arms. And so
jack Welsh is okay, you way backthere, somebody give him a mic,
and they pass this mic and passit back, and back and back, and
back and back. And finally, thisguy standing there, he's wearing
overalls, because he's one ofthe guys that walk works in the
warehouse. He says, Mr. Welsh,here's my idea. And I've been
(18:28):
thinking about this for a longtime. And he gives his idea. And
Mr. Welsh, jack Welsh says thatis a fantastic idea. And the guy
says, Mr. Welsh, all theseyears, you have been paying for
our hands, when you could havehad our heads for free. That's
(18:50):
what I'm talking about. Whoseheads whose perspective whose ID
who's going to be affected bywhatever it is we're doing?
Who's going to have to actuallydo the work? You know, who's, I
mean, think about it, thinkabout who needs to be in there
and say to them, I want to getit right. So, for me to get it
(19:14):
right. I need for you to tell mecandidly, what what your
thoughts are, you know, what isyour perspective on this? And if
we get this right, I will bedifferent when this meeting is
over, because I will havelearned from you.
Zoran Stojkovic (19:34):
In your book.
You use the phrasing ofinterrogating reality together.
Susan Scott (19:37):
Yeah, yep. Because no plan survives its collision
with reality. And reality. Imean, we're all living through
the worst collision. This planetcould have had a part from a,
you know, a meteor or something.
That and it has changed. Itchanged our reality. instantly.
And that can happen for a team,you know, somebody gets sick or
(20:02):
injured or no, for anorganization, something happens,
you're your competitor comes outwith a really fabulous thing
that you don't even haveanything close to that, you
know, or your clients, theirworld changes. And all of a
sudden, they are more interestedin something other than what it
(20:23):
is that you have. I mean, allkinds of things can change that
we need to regularly interrogatereality so that we can change
our plan if we need to. And wehave to be willing to change our
plans, because we can't justhang on to something just
because it was good six monthsago, it might not make any sense
(20:44):
at all right now.
Zoran Stojkovic (20:47):
How have you helped shaped team cultures of
organizations, either throughsystems you put in or through
advising leaders on what to do?
Susan Scott (20:55):
You know, our clients are all over the world,
every kind of company that youcan imagine. And the best way to
help them form powerful, strong,productive performance related
teams is to go through fierceconversations training, so that
(21:17):
they know how to work with oneanother how to collaborate,
effectively, how to gather tointerrogate reality, to provoke
their learning to tackle andresolve their toughest
challenges, and in the process,enrich their relationships with
one another. So our training isthe primary way. From time to
(21:39):
time I have accepted a requestto coach an individual, but I
don't have my, my little boy.
Here. She, you see, look, hereshe is, you can see her Oh,
yeah, so I've got three dogs,I'll tell you, it's a it's busy
(22:06):
here. But But when I when I,when I am coaching an
individual, I take them throughour coaching conversation, which
is also something that we teach.
And that that helps me circleback around to your earlier
questions are asked about how doyou create this culture? So
(22:30):
sometimes it's one on one,right? And I think we have a
really screwed up idea aboutwhat coaching is, at times.
Because, you know, I mean, it'snot always just, here's what you
need to do. Let me advise you,let me let me I want you to
(22:52):
benefit from my wisdom and myexperience, and blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, or even justgoing down a checklist with
somebody. So how did this go?
Did you do this? Did you dothis? Did you do this? What kind
of result? I mean that that canbe useful. But if that is the
only approach that you have withyour individuals, your
individual performers, you'reprobably missing something. So
(23:15):
for example, our coachingconversation begins with a
really important question,
Zoran Stojkovic (23:23):
What's the most important thing we should talk
about today?
Susan Scott (23:27):
Exactly. I want you to use, you're good Zoran, you
did read the book, I love it.
You know, given everythingthat's on your plate, everything
that's got your name on it, whatis the most important thing you
and I should be talking about?
And then go there. And there area series of questions to ask the
person. And you give yourself asecret rule, which is no
(23:48):
declarative statements. I'm notgoing to jump in and advise I'm
just going to ask thesequestions until we get really to
the end, because what you'redoing is you're helping someone
think out loud. I mean,honestly, sometimes I don't know
what I'm thinking and feelingunless I hear myself say it out
loud. And I'm not gonna say itout loud. Unless you ask me
(24:10):
questions that sort of helped meget there. And I have my own
epiphany, which is much moreimportant to me and motivating
to me than advice from somebodyelse. So you know that that
conversation I just threw aKleenex box at my one of my
(24:36):
dogs. didn't hurt her but it gother attention. I hope your your
your people who are listening tothis can get a giggle out of it.
Zoran Stojkovic (24:46):
I'm sure they will.
Susan Scott (24:53):
Any of us were working from home, dealing with.
It's very real here.
So that is that thatconversation really helps you
connect with that person at thatdeep level. And they are
(25:15):
grateful for that conversation.
And they do they feel seen andheard, because they haven't seen
and heard and appreciate it. So,you know, the team meetings be
thoughtful. And of course,there's a hole in my book,
there's a whole how to run thatmeeting, so that you hear from
everybody, and you don't haveany person, including yourself,
(25:37):
taking up all the airtime. Andthen this one on one
conversation that I would hopeleaders would have with their
direct reports, or their teammembers, you know, at least once
a month, or the very least oncea quarter. Because you, you can
think you can think that youknow, what's on somebody's mind,
(26:00):
you can think that you know,what's on somebody's to do list,
and you have no idea what'sreally going on for them? What's
really keeping them up at night.
Until you ask. We have to reallybe asking,
Zoran Stojkovic (26:19):
And and so what I'm hearing you say is, is for
organizations and teams, it'sgoing through fierce
conversation training. And withindividuals and individual
coaching, it's really aroundlearning, clarifying what the
issues and challenges are forthem, tackling those and then
figuring out how to how to haveconversations with their teams.
Susan Scott (26:41):
Yeah. And you know what I mean, not everybody's in
a position to, to, to takefierce training, although we're,
it's, it's, it's readilyavailable to anybody, and it's
online. And it's just reallysimple. But if that's not an
option, just give everybody onyour team, the book and say,
(27:03):
okay, read chapter one, we'lljust talk about it.
Zoran Stojkovic (27:06):
Like, a chapter a week.
Susan Scott (27:08):
Yeah, a chapter a week. And and I think that that
can be very useful. And the samething with fierce leadership,
that the subtitle of that bookis a bold alternative to the
worst, best practices ofbusiness today, because we have
some so called Best Practicesout there that are deadly. And
(27:31):
so we need to, you know, if youwant to know how to be a great
leader, grab that book.
Zoran Stojkovic (27:37):
what are some of those toxic behaviors for
Team culture? And how have youdealt with them? Or how have you
advised leaders to deal withthem, Susan?
Susan Scott (27:45):
Well, for years, I have been saying, one of the
most unhelpful, in fact,damaging things, that supposedly
a best practice in organizationsis anonymous feedback. And it's
often 360 anonymous feedback.
The 360 part's great. You'regetting feedback from everybody,
(28:08):
you know, all around you, peoplewho you report to people who
report to you people who areyour peers, cohorts. The
anonymous part is horrible. It'shorrible. People hate it. Why?
Because you could say, so let'ssay you're my boss, we say okay,
Soos, let's sit down, and let'sgo over the feedback that we've
(28:30):
received on you. Here are thereally positive things that
people are saying, they'rereally like this, and this and
you're doing a good job here,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And then over here is, andyou'll tell me something
negative. And all I can thinkabout is, ah, who thinks that?
Who thinks that about me? I'mnot like that? What is the Who?
(28:52):
Who, you know, and we're just,it's just a human nature thing.
And it's also we don't know, notonly do we not know who thinks
that, but we don't know why.
Because people are very carefulin writing down anonymous
(29:14):
feedback stuff, not to put downanything that would identify
them as the person giving themessage. So we don't know why.
What happened, what did I do orsay or not do or say? clueless?
So I would be I would love tolearn, but I don't you know, I
don't know. I don't know what
Zoran Stojkovic (29:35):
But don't you think people will hold back if
it's not anonymous?
Susan Scott (29:39):
Um, they will unless they've been trained how
to give feedback. I gave yousome feedback at the very
beginning, you know, before westarted and everything, feedback
is fake feedback is neitherpositive or negative. It's just
feedback. And if we stay currentwith one another, if we say to
one another, wow, I was soimpressed. I watched You in the
(30:00):
meeting this morning. And man,people were really challenging
your ideas, and you were sograteful. I mean, you you just
took it You didn't shut anybodydown use it. Thanks for your
comments, say more about it. Imean, you were really curious
and welcoming, you blew my socksoff. That was awesome. That's
(30:22):
feedback. Or you could say, Iremember saying to one of my
employees years ago, oh, my God,I walked past your desk, and you
were yelling into the phone. I'mpretty sure you were talking
with a customer. What was goingon? And he said, Yeah, I know,
(30:43):
she's deaf. She had, she won'twear a hearing aid. She has
hearing issues. And she keepssaying, I can't hear you talk
louder talk. I'm pretty sad. Andwe're both laughing. We're
laughing. Now, I could what wetend to do is make up stories
about people. And then we behaveas if our stories are true. So I
(31:05):
made up a story about thisemployee yelling in our
customers. And so it's, I mean,we have a whole approach to
feedback that takes the curseoff of it. And what you want to
do is stay current. You don'twant to wait for once a year, or
once every six months to givefeedback. I can't even remember,
(31:25):
even if you describe theincident to me, I'm going to
have a problem remembering it.
But if you come to me reallyfresh, and you say, hey, Suze, I
think that when you said so andso i think i think you left a
pretty negative emotional weightwith Laura. I believe she was
feeling pretty injured, then Ican say, Oh, my God, I think
(31:46):
you're right, I probably did.
I'm going to go and apologize toher right now done.
Zoran Stojkovic (31:54):
And that fixes.
And that one conversation fixesthe relationship, and it nudges
it into a better direction.
Susan Scott (31:59):
That's right. And we don't i don't get a year
later or six months later, thisthing about she hurts people's
feelings. I wouldn't. What theheck are you talking about?
Zoran Stojkovic (32:10):
Laura may be gone.
Susan Scott (32:12):
Yeah. I may have hurt her feeling so bad that you
know, so the bold alternative is365 days a year feedback face to
face, if possible, if not leaston the phone, do not give
feedback, unless it's praise viatext or email. I mean, we need
(32:34):
to hear voices, ideally see oneanother's faces. So it's just
that people don't know how togive feedback.
Zoran Stojkovic (32:42):
Are you a fan of sandwich feedback?
Susan Scott (32:43):
No!
Zoran Stojkovic (32:44):
The reason I mentioned it is because you
talked about in the bookspecific specific.
Susan Scott (32:48):
Yeah, yeah. In Australia, they call it the shit
sandwich. Cookie approach, whereyou say, you know, you're doing
a really good job here. ButBaba, Baba, bah, bah, bah, bah,
bah. And I'm, but I'm reallyglad you're a member of this
team. That's, that is noteffective. And I don't know now
(33:09):
the next time you come up to meand you say, Susie, I really
liked the way you did something.
I'm waiting. I'm waiting for theother shoe to fall. But I don't
trust you. Because the last timeyou complimented me on
something, then you hit me witha bat. And I'm still rubbing the
bruise. You know, I mean, so no,that's not good. It needs to be
separate. Ken Blanchard wrote abook many, many years ago, the
(33:32):
60 minute, no, the one minutemanager, the one minute manager,
really good little tiny book,saying that we should catch
people in the act of doingthings. Right. And, and calling
it out right then and there.
Boy, that was awesome. That wasreally good. catch somebody in
the act of doing something notso great pointed out right then
(33:54):
in there. And, and you, youjust, it's not this long
performance review that, youknow, everybody dreads. It's not
that
Zoran Stojkovic (34:07):
you're basically like a sports coach.
You're correcting technique,like immediately. You drip in
that micro feedback, like oftenso people can actually change
it.
Susan Scott (34:16):
Yes. And there are no surprises. I mean, if we do
have a formal, let's talk abouthow you're doing, you know,
there are no surprises, becauseyou and I are current, mostly
we're going to be talking aboutOkay, what's next, you know, the
next level of your developmentor this or that when I'm not
saying oh, well, we do have thisissue with us around. I mean, a
lot of people seem to feel that,you know, and you're going What,
(34:41):
what?
Zoran Stojkovic (34:42):
where did this?
Susan Scott (34:43):
If they feel that way? Why did they say anything
to me? And that is just thateverybody? Everybody has said
that? Boy, she would have beennice if they told me they were
not happy with whatever. Andthey but they didn't. It's it's
Woody Allen once said, I'm notafraid of death, I just don't
want to be in the room when ithappens. I think people feel
(35:07):
that way about feedback.
Zoran Stojkovic (35:10):
Think so too.
Susan Scott (35:11):
Don't know how to do it. And so our training
absolutely takes the curse offof it. And in the book, it's all
in the book, too.
Zoran Stojkovic (35:20):
It is. Team culture is pretty airy fairy,
and it's sometimes hard to put apin on it. So how can leaders
measure and assess it?
Susan Scott (35:29):
Well, you you'll measure it by how many games?
Are you winning? And what's thetalk in the locker room? I mean,
our Pete Carroll, who's thecoach of the Seattle Seahawks is
one of the most amazing andfabulous men walking on this
planet. And I think if if peoplewere to do some research into
(35:55):
the kinds of things he does,with his team, and with
individuals on the team, andthen look how they're Look how
they're performing, you know,they just had a recent loss, but
usually they're they're doingreally well. All the fans 12th
man, you know, we're all there.
We're rooting for them. Thathappens because of Pete Carroll.
(36:18):
And what he, what he offers themand how he talks to them. And
he's not your typical. This is avery old school, but the sort of
cigar chomping you know, Mambacoach, kind of it's not like
that at all.
Zoran Stojkovic (36:39):
No, he's different than he's different
than Belichick
Susan Scott (36:41):
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
And I mean, the team members,how they talk about one another,
how they are supportive of oneanother appreciative of one
another, encouraging oneanother. That all comes from the
heart that comes from the heart.
And it shows up, when you askabout performance, how do you
(37:04):
measure it? Are you winninggames are losing games?
Zoran Stojkovic (37:07):
Is that it?
Susan Scott (37:08):
Well, pretty much, I mean if you
Zoran Stojkovic (37:10):
But I mean, culture, you mentioned that you
can go into, you can go into anorganization. You said, show me
the culture of an organization,I'll tell you how they perform.
Susan Scott (37:21):
Yeah, that's right.
Zoran Stojkovic (37:22):
But how do you What are you looking for? when
you're when you're looking forculture? Is it that openness? Is
it that? Is it some of that?
Susan Scott (37:30):
The relationship, the quality of the
relationships. You walk in.
Let's say you walk into acompany into their lobby, you
quickly get a feel for thedegree of warmth? Where is or
isn't? And I'm the receptionist,look on his or her face? The
welcoming the Can I get you somecoffee or a glass of water or
(37:54):
tea or anything, you know, soglad you're here, let me let so
and so no, and then so and socomes out. And with handshake
extended, when COVID is over, itsays Welcome Hello, come on in
you, you. You have clues bigtails, right then in there, of
whether this organization has apulse. And but you can also look
(38:19):
at their numbers. I mean, youknow, this is this has been this
whole COVID thing has beenreally hard for training
companies, because in anemergency, if companies are not
as profitable as they normallyare, then training is one of the
first things they generally cut,but we actually are doing quite
(38:41):
well. Because companies havejust shifted it to virtual
trainings. And they know howimportant it is to continue to
nurture their people to helptheir people continue to
develop. You know, everybodywants to feel like they're
growing and they're learningthings. And to help them be
productive during thisespecially stressful time when
(39:04):
they don't get to hang outtogether. When we have a lot of
young employees who just flatout love each other. They're
like brothers and sisters witheach other. They, you know, they
come into the office and they'rehanging out and they're laughing
and they're talking about theirweekends and they're playing
games and doing the crosswordwhatever they're doing. Now,
(39:26):
they can't do that. And ithurts. It hurts that we have a
culture committee that wastasked with how do you keep us
connected given that we'rephysically apart, and they've
done a really good job, they'vecome up with all kinds of
things, whether it's a you know,a virtual happy hour or virtual
(39:47):
game or putting little cohortstogether to talk about certain
topics from time to time. Andthey keep mixing it up. So I
don't even remember what youasked me, Zoran. And I think I
wandered off into thewilderness.
Zoran Stojkovic (40:07):
All good. All this is really good. You're
spewing out some really, reallygood gems here. See that? How?
Yeah, you, when you were talkingabout getting a vibe for the
culture, when you walk in what Ithought of is Starbucks Seattle,
started started out in Seattle,whenever you go in, it's not
(40:30):
going to be more than a coupleof seconds before somebody
acknowledges you and says, I'llbe with you in a second.
Susan Scott (40:35):
And so I know what, a few years ago, long before
COVID does have that problem. Ihave to throw something else at
my dog. That Starbucks had had areally tough time. And Howard
Schultz, who founded it cameback into the company. And he
said, you know, we, and this,this was him being totally open,
(40:59):
totally transparent with notonly the employees, but also the
world. He said, we got tooambitious, we opened up too many
stores and too many places allat the same time. We need to go
back to the reason why I startedthis in the first place was a
place for people to gather tomeet to because he got me ideas
(41:23):
from his times in Europe, whenpeople sitting in on the
sidewalk having coffee, andtalking and talking and talking.
And he's and he made a bigchange. One of the things he did
was they had these, thesemachines that were really,
really high and you could notreally see the barista when the
barista was standing behindthose machines, he got rid of
(41:44):
them all. And he got a muchlower machine so that the
barista could talk with youwhile they are making your
coffee. Just things like that.
Um, you know, he stayed true tohis vision of what is what is
Starbucks about? It's aboutcoffee, but it's about a
(42:06):
gathering place. It's about aplace to come.
Zoran Stojkovic (42:10):
Similar to McDonald's and the whole story
of of how that Ray Kroc reallywanted to make it about a place
where families come connectioncommunity, it wasn't about the
burgers that had a perfectsystem for making perfect french
fries. But it wasn't, it wasn'tabout that.
Susan Scott (42:25):
Their french fries are so good.
Zoran Stojkovic (42:29):
Susan, what does cultivating your culture
mean to you?
Susan Scott (42:33):
Well, I'll answer that by telling you a little
story that's also in my book,and I know you're gonna
recognize it. years ago, I wasat a conference with a bunch of
my peers from around the worldwho were all leading these CEO
groups. And one of our speakerswas a Yorkshire born poet named
(42:54):
David white. And he stood up onthe stage in his beautiful
Yorkshire accent. He said, Doyou know the young man who is
newly married, is oftenperplexed, even a little
irritated that this lovelyperson to whom he has planted
His truth, that's how they talk.
And England insists on appearingbefore his face on a regular
(43:15):
basis wanting to talk yet again,about the thing they just talked
about last night last weekend,and it always has something to
do with the quality of therelationship. And he wonders why
are we having this conversationagain? I mean, I told you, I
loved you. I, you know, why arewe having this conversation
(43:36):
again? And David said, we're onabout age 42. And he smiled
because he was 42? Well, I'mabout age 42. If he's been
paying attention, it dawns onhim this ongoing conversation I
have been having with my wife isnot about the relationship. The
conversation is therelationship. So if, if that, I
(44:00):
mean, honestly, I had just lefta long term marriage, and I was
pretty heartbroken about it. ButI felt like he was talking
directly to me. And then I foundout later on that everybody else
in the room felt like he wastalking directly to them. And it
was mostly men. I think I waswonderful, like a handful of
women, this sea of men.
(44:24):
Everybody just was stunned. Andif if you recognize there may be
something to this notion thatthe conversation is the
relationship. Then if theconversation stops, well, you
can do the math. Or if you and Iadd another topic to the list of
(44:45):
things we can't talk aboutbecause it wrecks another
weekend, then all of thepossibilities for our
relationship becomes smaller,and all of the possibilities for
the individuals in therelationship become smaller
until one day I overhear myself,making myself quite small, as if
(45:05):
I'm just the space around myshoes engaged in yet another
three minute conversation thatis so empty of meaning it
crackles. So when I think aboutculture, I think about
relationship, I think about theconversations. And, you know, it
could be a little overwhelmingfeeling, oh, my god, there's all
(45:26):
these conversations I need tohave, but just take it one at a
time, just one at a time. And ifyou want the tips on how to make
those conversations,extraordinary, then all of the
tips are in the book, there areseven principles in each chapter
on that. Even one of them is behere prepared to be nowhere
(45:51):
else. So just being in thisconversation with someone
prepared to be nowhere else, Iput down my cell phone, I'm
looking at the TV, I've closedmy laptop, I'm not thinking
about something that happenedearlier in the day or something
that's coming up, I am Here I amwith you, I am completely
focused. And honestly, one ofthe greatest gifts we can give
(46:13):
another person is the purity ofour attention. So that's one of
the principles. So you know,just take it one conversation at
a time, whether it's with yourwhole group of people, your
entire team, or one member ofyour team. Just take it one at a
time.
Zoran Stojkovic (46:31):
Is there you've mentioned a bunch of these,
Susan, but if there was onepractical tool you wanted to
leave our listeners with, thatthey can use tomorrow to
cultivate the culture of theirteam, what would it be?
Susan Scott (46:45):
To be fierce, the simplest definition of a fierce
conversation is one in which wecome out from behind ourselves
into our conversations, and makethem real. And some people are
afraid of real and yet it's theUnreal conversations that ought
to scare us to death becausethey're incredibly expensive. So
(47:10):
just start practicing,disclosing what you're really
thinking and feeling. Don'twithhold, make it real. And see
what happens. I mean, it couldgo well, it could not go well.
But at least you will have saidone thing that was real for you.
And that's you being fierce,that's you navigating, testing
(47:32):
the waters, dipping your toe inand coming out from behind
yourself, you know, people haveall of these images that they
present. And they're differentimages depending on who they're
with, you know, my image for myboss my image for my coworker,
(47:53):
my image for my community, myimage for my priest, my rabbi,
my minister, my image for, youknow, and we can get to the
place where we're unrecognizableto ourselves, because we've got
so many images going on. Sothrow that out. We're not
interested in your highlypolished, glossy image. We're
(48:14):
not attracted to that we canfind that on any street corner,
we want the real you becausethere's only one of you. You're
it. You are the unique person.
There's there's one Zoran onthis planet. And so that's the
person we want to hang out withthat real real person. And and
when people are real with us, wetend to be real with them back.
(48:38):
So we you know, don't wait forsomebody else to do this. You go
first model. You go first andtake the take the leap.
Zoran Stojkovic (48:53):
Wow, that's a that's a great, great wrap up
and a great tool to leave peoplewith Susan, tell me is there
what I was gonna ask about abook or resource that has shaped
your understanding of culture?
You have two great books a thirdone coming out. Is there
something else that you would?
Susan Scott (49:09):
Well, I have you may find this to be appalling,
but I hardly ever, ever readnonfiction. I'm an English
major. I like a good story. Iread fiction.
Zoran Stojkovic (49:22):
Great, what's a good fiction?
Susan Scott (49:23):
God, I wouldn't even know where to start. I
mean, there's and there's somany different genres that I
love. I love anything byFrederic Bachman. But I mean,
there's just there's a gazillionthings. So I did I've just I've
gathered my thoughts aboutculture because of being awake
in the world, and payingattention to what's happening.
(49:44):
It's not that I sat down atsomebody's feet and they said
this is you know, this is whatyou need to do or that I read a
book about it. And it's thatmight sound ironic since I ended
up writing a book about it but Ididn't want to but everybody
kept saying you have got towrite this This down and Okay, I
thought I was going to write thegreat American novel, but I
(50:05):
guess I'm gonna write this andthen, you know, it's led to
wonderful things. So I would sayyes, please, if you don't have
fierce conversations, fierceleadership, I would start there
even go to our website, which isjust fierce Inc. I nc.com. Check
out what we do. We're doing allkinds of really cool stuff.
(50:26):
These days. We're doing 3dsimulations. We're doing stuff
on Well, I can't even think ofwhat you call it right now. But
just all there are a lot oftopics that are important right
now. Were having to do withwhether it's race or gender
issues, or inclusion orprejudice, or whatever it is,
(50:46):
oh, microaggressions. That's theword I was looking for. You
know, what are those? How do Inavigate? You know, how do I not
say the wrong thing. But withoutbeing so cautious that I don't
say anything at all. I mean,there, we have a lot of new
things that we're doing. And I'mreally excited about what we're
(51:06):
doing. So yeah, fear sink, andthen my books, but I think if
you just if you just start beingreal, and see where it takes
you, you might be pleasantlysurprised and it might not take
you as many conversations as youthink it will to achieve what
you want to achieve.
Zoran Stojkovic (51:25):
That's huge.
Susan, thank you so much fortaking the time today to speak
to our listeners and to shareyour insight your your knowledge
or systems and it was really agreat conversation. I know I'm
gonna I'm gonna be listening toit back again.
Susan Scott (51:37):
Thank you. Sorry.
And thank you for having me. Itwas really a pleasure. Thank
you.
Zoran Stojkovic (51:41):
Hope to do this again. And and I hope you can
come up to visit, visit theisland again.
Susan Scott (51:45):
you know, well, when the curse is lifted, I
probably will let you know I'mgonna hit it on duration.
Zoran Stojkovic (51:56):
Hey, thanks for tuning in to cultivate your
culture, rate and reviewerpodcast on iTunes. Any websites
and resources mentioned in thepodcast as well as the guests
information can be found on theshow at www.kizo.ca/podcast.
Here's a sneak peek of what'scoming up in our episode next
week.
Landon Gorbenko (52:20):
You see a lot of culture issues that way
because they just never learnedhow to resolve conflict, how to
work together towards one goal.
So everybody's kind of pushingtowards their own goal. And then
you get this big tension becauseeverybody's going off on
slightly different directions.
You got to we got to rein it inso that everybody's going
towards one unified vision.
Hello, I'm your host Zoran Stojkovic and welcome
to cultivate your culture. Thispodcast we'll be discussing how
leaders can build connected highperforming teams and business in
sport using actionable tools,evidence based systems and
simple processes. Today on theshow, we have Susan Scott. Susan
(00:27):
founded fierce in 2001 after 13years, leading CEO think tanks
and more than 10,000 hours ofconversations with senior
executives. Over the past twodecades, she has shared her
expertise with clients throughher keynote presentations TEDx
talks, and award winning books,fierce conversations and fierce
(00:48):
leadership. She holds a Bachelorof Arts degree in English from
Hobart and William Smithcolleges, Susan is a popular and
sought after fortune 100 speakerand renowned leadership
development architect, known forher bold yet practical approach
to effective coaching andleadership development. Susan
has been challenging people tosay things that are hard to say
(01:10):
for over two decades. Susan,welcome to the show.
Susan Scott (01:14):
Thank you so much, Zoran.
Zoran Stojkovic (01:15):
I really enjoyed fierce conversations.
That was a book where I took alot of notes, I use that as I
went through the chapters, Iused it in my relationships,
personally, in my relationshipsat work in the work that I do in
consulting. And I've suggestedit over and over and over again,
(01:36):
like I got a lot out of thebook. And I know you've been to
Canada a couple of times.
Susan Scott (01:42):
well, it's not that far from Seattle, really? Just
straight shot up north
Zoran Stojkovic (01:47):
Straight shot up north. Do you want to tell us
a little bit about yourself?
Like, is there something thatI've missed? Is there any any
hobbies or passions that youhave outside of writing and
consulting?
Susan Scott (01:57):
Well, you heard my barking dogs in the background.
I love animals. I love animals,I love my dogs. During this
whole pandemic, they have beenfabulous companions. One thing I
would say, you know, you saidthat you've used what you read
in the book in your personalrelationships. And I have been
told that by so many people fromall over the world, that I am
(02:20):
now almost finished writing thethird and final book in the
fierce trilogy. And it wastitled fierce love. And it's
about those romanticrelationships, whether you're
married or living together,committed or whatever, just two
people up close and personal,trying to craft something
(02:42):
extraordinary. Because you know,love doesn't make itself we make
it or we fail to make it or weunmake it. It's not like God is
up there x machinee beingeverything in our lives,
certainly not the amount of lovewe have in our lives. So that's
up to us. And that's what thisthird book is about. And in
(03:04):
January, we will take it out tothe publishing world and see
what happens
Zoran Stojkovic (03:09):
January. That's exciting. I have Fierce
Leadership on the bookshelf.
It's one of the next books thatI'm going to be reading and then
your book reminded me of thefive languages of love. You
probably you've probably readthat one. So I'm really looking
forward to reading yours and andgetting more of those practical
tools and questions like I'vegotten from the first one.
Susan Scott (03:30):
That's great.
That's wonderful. Thank you.
Zoran Stojkovic (03:32):
So Susan, how, you know team culture is a
concept that's been it's beenaround forever, but it's really
hard to pinpoint. There's a lotof different definitions out
there, how would you define it?
Susan Scott (03:45):
You know, is are and when I think of culture, I
just immediately think ofrelationships. It's all about
the relationships, it's aboutyour relationship with your
organization, whether it's acompany or a team, you know, how
do you feel about this group ofpeople and what they're trying
to accomplish? Whether it's amission and vision or just their
(04:07):
goals? How do you feel aboutyour teammates, you know, what
is the, the level of yourrelationship with your
teammates, and your customers?
So if you're, you know, inSeattle, we've got the Seahawks,
and we've got the crackin and weare major raving fans. And so
the fans are a team's customersso to speak. And that
(04:30):
relationship, you know, what isthat relationship like? And it
just, I mean relationship, it'swhat you feel when you walk in
the door. It's what you feelwhen you meet up with your
teammates. It's what you feelwhen you anticipate the next
thing you guys are going to dotogether. And it's so it's, it's
an emotion, it's not a it's nota head based thing. It's emotion
(04:54):
and that's where the you know,Evidence based. So much of the
evidence that I use is simply myown, being alive and paying
attention to what's happening.
It's not, it's not a scientificstudy or anything, but you can
tell when you walk into anorganization or you walk into a
(05:16):
group of people who are doingsomething together, you can tell
within seconds, what the cultureis, and how they feel about one
another. And whether they'rejust faking it and tolerating,
or they really genuinely havegenuine affection and
appreciation for one another. Tome, that's what culture is. And
(05:37):
I know a lot of people woulddefine it very differently. But
I think our most valuablecurrency is not money, it is
relationship, it is thatemotional capital, which we
either acquire, or, or lose,squander one conversation at a
time. So the relationships areforged over time, one
(06:03):
conversation at a time. Andthat's what I, you know, after,
after all those years of workingwith CEOs and having all those
conversations, my gosh, withpeople who are leading every
kind of organization, you canimagine, from software, to
coffee, to manufacturing, tosports. I even did some work
(06:27):
with the Olympic team. Where wasI wasn't somewhere in Canada. I
know, I was I just don'tremember Montreal, actually, I
think I was in Montreal. Youknow, whatever the group of
people is, it's that it's thoserelationships in those
conversations. So what getstalked about in a in a, an
(06:48):
organization or team, how itgets talked about, and who is
invited to be a part of thatconversation determines what's
going to happen? And what's notgoing to happen?
Zoran Stojkovic (07:00):
Wow, Susan. So what I'm hearing you say is it's
really about the relationships,and the relationships are about
what we feel when we're witheach other. The emotions.
Susan Scott (07:09):
That's right.
That's right. And I think thatthe next frontier for
exponential growth for anyorganization, or any individual
does lie in the area of humanconnectivity. And so how
connected are we? Is it? Is itshallow? Are we sort of
waterskiing through therelationship? Or are we willing
to put on a tank, you know, andgo blue below the surface and
(07:33):
connect with one another at thatdeeper level, that's when we
really see one another, and wefeel seen. And I'll just back up
a little bit Zahran when I, whenI was working with the CEOs, I
had, I had two groups of noncompeting CEOs, and each group
had 15 to 16 at any given time.
(07:57):
And, and, and I would meet witheach one of them individually,
once a month, for two hours,sort of a come to God chat,
what's going on, and then eachof the groups would spend one
full day together to advise oneanother on their most pressing
issues. So you know, when they,what I noticed was when they
(08:20):
were asking themselves, how didwe lose that customer? Who
counted for 20% of our netprofit? or How did I lose that
key employee for whom I hadgreat plans? How is it that I've
lost the cohesiveness of myteam? And once in a while, how
did I How did I lose an 18 yearmarriage that I was not prepared
(08:43):
to lose? Well, you lost that youlost your customer, you lost
your team, you lost youremployee, you lost your
marriage, one failed, or onemissing conversation at a time.
And if you ask yourself, How didI gain that amazing, new client
(09:09):
that our competition would killfor? And how did I attract and
retain the most amazingemployees and teammates? How is
it that my team is reallydedicated to whatever we need to
do to accomplish our goals? Howis it that my personal
relationship is is a thing ofgreat joy to me? And how did I
(09:32):
get there? Well, they arrivedthere one successful
conversation at a time. So itwas just really clear that
conversations were the theribbon that ran through
everything.
Zoran Stojkovic (09:47):
Yeah, they absolutely are. And I mean,
culture cultivating a culture isimportant, but why do you think
it is important Susan and forbusiness and for sports teams?
Why should people be spendingresources and time and money on
taking time to get thoserelationships?
Susan Scott (10:06):
No, show me the culture in a company. And I can
tell you within minutes whetherthis company is going to, or
this team is going to goanywhere or not. I mean, the
culture. Somebody said, cultureeats strategy for breakfast. I
don't remember who said that.
But it was brilliant.
Zoran Stojkovic (10:23):
Peter Drucker, I think.
Susan Scott (10:25):
yeah, yeah. And that's such a good quote, it's
so true, you can have, and I sawthis happen, you can have
brilliant plans, fantasticstrategy, you can even have
great talent on the team, andyou're all dressed up and ready
to go. But if thoserelationships are not solid, if
(10:45):
there isn't that mutual respect,and shall I dare say, affection
for team members, then the firsttime something tough gets in the
way, things are going to startto fall apart. So for for an
(11:05):
organization or team to be ableto stand to withstand hardship,
there has to be something at thecore of that group of people
that will see them through this,like, here we are in this
pandemic, you know, there are,there are couples now who are
spending forced time together,and some are loving it, and some
(11:29):
are not loving it so much.
Because when we have to betogether, relationships
accelerate for good or bad, youknow, all the things that are
great about a relationship oramplified than all of the things
that aren't so great areamplified. So what is it, you
know, if you want to, if youwant to accomplish something,
you've got to have people whowill go with you, I remember, I
(11:52):
remember watching an absolutelybrilliant man come into a
company that sort of needed hisbrilliance. And he had an
amazing plan. It was so smart.
But he didn't, he didn't capturethe hearts of people at all.
(12:18):
They didn't really liking himall that much. Because mostly
because they didn't feel like heliked them, or really saw them
or really valued them, he wasall about here's the plan, you
take that heel, you take thathill, very clip, clip, you know.
And so eventually, where hewrote in on his white horse, he
rode right back out the backdoor on his white horse, because
(12:40):
nobody would follow him. Soculture, you can have everything
else wonderfully in place.
Perfect. And without a strongculture, you're going nowhere
very slowly, at great expense,sort of like sailing.
Zoran Stojkovic (13:05):
So you saying, Susan, what I'm hearing you say
is, it's important to have theculture for the team to actually
perform at a high level. And theleaders have to leaders are one
of the people that that wouldthat cultivate that culture. And
it's important for them to notjust look at the numbers and the
bottom line and the strategy andthe systems and processes, but
(13:28):
really look at this humanelement of it and, and the
emotional capital and developtheir own emotional capital.
Susan Scott (13:35):
yeah, I need to look at all of it. Obviously, we
do need the data, you know, wedo need the numbers and all of
that, we do need that. And weusually have somebody who
analyzes all of that for us andtells us, okay, here's how we're
trending, etc. And that'simportant. But there are other
things that are that areactually more important. Because
(13:58):
if you don't have those otherthings, these cultural things,
then the numbers will head inthe wrong direction for you at
some point. You know, sometimeswhen we're doing a training back
in the days, when we used to doin person trainings right now,
all of our training is virtual,of course. But people would come
into the room, you know, aclient, a company, and they'd be
(14:19):
looking around and they said,Well, wait a second. Where are
our leaders? I don't see any ofour leaders. Are they going to
go through this training?
Because we think this is great.
We think this is what we reallyneed. Where are our leaders? And
the leaders weren't there?
Because they didn't think theyneeded it. You know, they
thought well, I'm a leader. Lookat my title, look at my corner
office, look at my salary and mystock options. I must be pretty
(14:43):
cool. You know, I mean, I'veI've arrived, I don't need this
other stuff. And boy, they do.
And I remember one time therewas a leader in the room and He
was sitting right in the frontof the room. And we were talking
(15:05):
about the importance of actuallyhaving an exchange of ideas, not
just one person holding forthgiving some kind of a monologue,
you know? And he said, Oh, I'm,I'm always really interested in
what other people have to say.
And behind him. All of hisemployees were shaking their
they were me, shaking their headshaking their head. Oh, man. So
(15:26):
sometimes we just we don't, wewere not aware of our flaws or
imperfections.
Zoran Stojkovic (15:38):
Well, so let's say somebody is at a space where
they they understand what teamculture is, they buy into the
fact that it's important. Now,it's on what's the starting
place for cultivating culture?
Who has to be in thoseconversations, Susan?
Susan Scott (15:55):
It depends. So if we're talking about if there's a
thinking back to my CEO, ThinkTank days, if there is a problem
that needs solving, or a bigdecision that needs to be made,
or a strategy that needs to bedesigned, an opportunity that
needs to be evaluated, it'simportant to ask yourself, okay,
(16:17):
whose perspective? Would it beuseful for me to understand if
I'm the one who's going toultimately make the decision?
Whose perspective Do I need tounderstand so that I get it
right. And this is one of thebig differences between ordinary
leaders and fierce leaders, mostleaders want to be right. A
(16:37):
fierce leader wants to get itright for the team, for the
organization. And in order toget it right for everybody, I
really need to be thoughtfulabout whose perspective would be
very useful to invite in theroom. So not, not just the usual
suspects who else should bethere?
Zoran Stojkovic (16:56):
So is it not necessarily the leadership
group?
Susan Scott (16:59):
Sometimes it is, but it's not necessarily No. And
sometimes the leadership groupfeels it can feel a little
insecure, if they didn't getinvited to every single meeting.
But I would say to them, Look,you have, there are so many
important things that are onyour plate with your name on
them, I want to cut you someslack. This is not a meeting
where we have to have yourinput. You know, go ahead,
(17:20):
please focus on the things atthe very top of your to do list,
because that's that is yourgreat contribution to us. And
it's, it's, it's okay for theleaders to be there. But who
else? You know, I think about,there's a wonderful story about
Jack Welch, when they bought amanufacturing company, and I
(17:41):
don't remember what it was, butsome huge manufacturing company,
and he called a meeting of allof the employees in their
enormous warehouse. And he'sstanding with his microphone.
And he says, you know, we've gotsome problems to solve here,
some real challenges, and Ireally am open to your ideas.
And in the back way in the back.
There. I don't know how manypeople 1000 people in this
(18:04):
warehouse way in the back, thisguy is waving his arms. And so
jack Welsh is okay, you way backthere, somebody give him a mic,
and they pass this mic and passit back, and back and back, and
back and back. And finally, thisguy standing there, he's wearing
overalls, because he's one ofthe guys that walk works in the
warehouse. He says, Mr. Welsh,here's my idea. And I've been
(18:28):
thinking about this for a longtime. And he gives his idea. And
Mr. Welsh, jack Welsh says thatis a fantastic idea. And the guy
says, Mr. Welsh, all theseyears, you have been paying for
our hands, when you could havehad our heads for free. That's
(18:50):
what I'm talking about. Whoseheads whose perspective whose ID
who's going to be affected bywhatever it is we're doing?
Who's going to have to actuallydo the work? You know, who's, I
mean, think about it, thinkabout who needs to be in there
and say to them, I want to getit right. So, for me to get it
(19:14):
right. I need for you to tell mecandidly, what what your
thoughts are, you know, what isyour perspective on this? And if
we get this right, I will bedifferent when this meeting is
over, because I will havelearned from you.
Zoran Stojkovic (19:34):
In your book.
You use the phrasing ofinterrogating reality together.
Susan Scott (19:37):
Yeah, yep. Because no plan survives its collision
with reality. And reality. Imean, we're all living through
the worst collision. This planetcould have had a part from a,
you know, a meteor or something.
That and it has changed. Itchanged our reality. instantly.
And that can happen for a team,you know, somebody gets sick or
(20:02):
injured or no, for anorganization, something happens,
you're your competitor comes outwith a really fabulous thing
that you don't even haveanything close to that, you
know, or your clients, theirworld changes. And all of a
sudden, they are more interestedin something other than what it
(20:23):
is that you have. I mean, allkinds of things can change that
we need to regularly interrogatereality so that we can change
our plan if we need to. And wehave to be willing to change our
plans, because we can't justhang on to something just
because it was good six monthsago, it might not make any sense
(20:44):
at all right now.
Zoran Stojkovic (20:47):
How have you helped shaped team cultures of
organizations, either throughsystems you put in or through
advising leaders on what to do?
Susan Scott (20:55):
You know, our clients are all over the world,
every kind of company that youcan imagine. And the best way to
help them form powerful, strong,productive performance related
teams is to go through fierceconversations training, so that
(21:17):
they know how to work with oneanother how to collaborate,
effectively, how to gather tointerrogate reality, to provoke
their learning to tackle andresolve their toughest
challenges, and in the process,enrich their relationships with
one another. So our training isthe primary way. From time to
(21:39):
time I have accepted a requestto coach an individual, but I
don't have my, my little boy.
Here. She, you see, look, hereshe is, you can see her Oh,
yeah, so I've got three dogs,I'll tell you, it's a it's busy
(22:06):
here. But But when I when I,when I am coaching an
individual, I take them throughour coaching conversation, which
is also something that we teach.
And that that helps me circleback around to your earlier
questions are asked about how doyou create this culture? So
(22:30):
sometimes it's one on one,right? And I think we have a
really screwed up idea aboutwhat coaching is, at times.
Because, you know, I mean, it'snot always just, here's what you
need to do. Let me advise you,let me let me I want you to
(22:52):
benefit from my wisdom and myexperience, and blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, or even justgoing down a checklist with
somebody. So how did this go?
Did you do this? Did you dothis? Did you do this? What kind
of result? I mean that that canbe useful. But if that is the
only approach that you have withyour individuals, your
individual performers, you'reprobably missing something. So
(23:15):
for example, our coachingconversation begins with a
really important question,
Zoran Stojkovic (23:23):
What's the most important thing we should talk
about today?
Susan Scott (23:27):
Exactly. I want you to use, you're good Zoran, you
did read the book, I love it.
You know, given everythingthat's on your plate, everything
that's got your name on it, whatis the most important thing you
and I should be talking about?
And then go there. And there area series of questions to ask the
person. And you give yourself asecret rule, which is no
(23:48):
declarative statements. I'm notgoing to jump in and advise I'm
just going to ask thesequestions until we get really to
the end, because what you'redoing is you're helping someone
think out loud. I mean,honestly, sometimes I don't know
what I'm thinking and feelingunless I hear myself say it out
loud. And I'm not gonna say itout loud. Unless you ask me
(24:10):
questions that sort of helped meget there. And I have my own
epiphany, which is much moreimportant to me and motivating
to me than advice from somebodyelse. So you know that that
conversation I just threw aKleenex box at my one of my
(24:36):
dogs. didn't hurt her but it gother attention. I hope your your
your people who are listening tothis can get a giggle out of it.
Zoran Stojkovic (24:46):
I'm sure they will.
Susan Scott (24:53):
Any of us were working from home, dealing with.
It's very real here.
So that is that thatconversation really helps you
connect with that person at thatdeep level. And they are
(25:15):
grateful for that conversation.
And they do they feel seen andheard, because they haven't seen
and heard and appreciate it. So,you know, the team meetings be
thoughtful. And of course,there's a hole in my book,
there's a whole how to run thatmeeting, so that you hear from
everybody, and you don't haveany person, including yourself,
(25:37):
taking up all the airtime. Andthen this one on one
conversation that I would hopeleaders would have with their
direct reports, or their teammembers, you know, at least once
a month, or the very least oncea quarter. Because you, you can
think you can think that youknow, what's on somebody's mind,
(26:00):
you can think that you know,what's on somebody's to do list,
and you have no idea what'sreally going on for them? What's
really keeping them up at night.
Until you ask. We have to reallybe asking,
Zoran Stojkovic (26:19):
And and so what I'm hearing you say is, is for
organizations and teams, it'sgoing through fierce
conversation training. And withindividuals and individual
coaching, it's really aroundlearning, clarifying what the
issues and challenges are forthem, tackling those and then
figuring out how to how to haveconversations with their teams.
Susan Scott (26:41):
Yeah. And you know what I mean, not everybody's in
a position to, to, to takefierce training, although we're,
it's, it's, it's readilyavailable to anybody, and it's
online. And it's just reallysimple. But if that's not an
option, just give everybody onyour team, the book and say,
(27:03):
okay, read chapter one, we'lljust talk about it.
Zoran Stojkovic (27:06):
Like, a chapter a week.
Susan Scott (27:08):
Yeah, a chapter a week. And and I think that that
can be very useful. And the samething with fierce leadership,
that the subtitle of that bookis a bold alternative to the
worst, best practices ofbusiness today, because we have
some so called Best Practicesout there that are deadly. And
(27:31):
so we need to, you know, if youwant to know how to be a great
leader, grab that book.
Zoran Stojkovic (27:37):
what are some of those toxic behaviors for
Team culture? And how have youdealt with them? Or how have you
advised leaders to deal withthem, Susan?
Susan Scott (27:45):
Well, for years, I have been saying, one of the
most unhelpful, in fact,damaging things, that supposedly
a best practice in organizationsis anonymous feedback. And it's
often 360 anonymous feedback.
The 360 part's great. You'regetting feedback from everybody,
(28:08):
you know, all around you, peoplewho you report to people who
report to you people who areyour peers, cohorts. The
anonymous part is horrible. It'shorrible. People hate it. Why?
Because you could say, so let'ssay you're my boss, we say okay,
Soos, let's sit down, and let'sgo over the feedback that we've
(28:30):
received on you. Here are thereally positive things that
people are saying, they'rereally like this, and this and
you're doing a good job here,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And then over here is, andyou'll tell me something
negative. And all I can thinkabout is, ah, who thinks that?
Who thinks that about me? I'mnot like that? What is the Who?
(28:52):
Who, you know, and we're just,it's just a human nature thing.
And it's also we don't know, notonly do we not know who thinks
that, but we don't know why.
Because people are very carefulin writing down anonymous
(29:14):
feedback stuff, not to put downanything that would identify
them as the person giving themessage. So we don't know why.
What happened, what did I do orsay or not do or say? clueless?
So I would be I would love tolearn, but I don't you know, I
don't know. I don't know what
Zoran Stojkovic (29:35):
But don't you think people will hold back if
it's not anonymous?
Susan Scott (29:39):
Um, they will unless they've been trained how
to give feedback. I gave yousome feedback at the very
beginning, you know, before westarted and everything, feedback
is fake feedback is neitherpositive or negative. It's just
feedback. And if we stay currentwith one another, if we say to
one another, wow, I was soimpressed. I watched You in the
(30:00):
meeting this morning. And man,people were really challenging
your ideas, and you were sograteful. I mean, you you just
took it You didn't shut anybodydown use it. Thanks for your
comments, say more about it. Imean, you were really curious
and welcoming, you blew my socksoff. That was awesome. That's
(30:22):
feedback. Or you could say, Iremember saying to one of my
employees years ago, oh, my God,I walked past your desk, and you
were yelling into the phone. I'mpretty sure you were talking
with a customer. What was goingon? And he said, Yeah, I know,
(30:43):
she's deaf. She had, she won'twear a hearing aid. She has
hearing issues. And she keepssaying, I can't hear you talk
louder talk. I'm pretty sad. Andwe're both laughing. We're
laughing. Now, I could what wetend to do is make up stories
about people. And then we behaveas if our stories are true. So I
(31:05):
made up a story about thisemployee yelling in our
customers. And so it's, I mean,we have a whole approach to
feedback that takes the curseoff of it. And what you want to
do is stay current. You don'twant to wait for once a year, or
once every six months to givefeedback. I can't even remember,
(31:25):
even if you describe theincident to me, I'm going to
have a problem remembering it.
But if you come to me reallyfresh, and you say, hey, Suze, I
think that when you said so andso i think i think you left a
pretty negative emotional weightwith Laura. I believe she was
feeling pretty injured, then Ican say, Oh, my God, I think
(31:46):
you're right, I probably did.
I'm going to go and apologize toher right now done.
Zoran Stojkovic (31:54):
And that fixes.
And that one conversation fixesthe relationship, and it nudges
it into a better direction.
Susan Scott (31:59):
That's right. And we don't i don't get a year
later or six months later, thisthing about she hurts people's
feelings. I wouldn't. What theheck are you talking about?
Zoran Stojkovic (32:10):
Laura may be gone.
Susan Scott (32:12):
Yeah. I may have hurt her feeling so bad that you
know, so the bold alternative is365 days a year feedback face to
face, if possible, if not leaston the phone, do not give
feedback, unless it's praise viatext or email. I mean, we need
(32:34):
to hear voices, ideally see oneanother's faces. So it's just
that people don't know how togive feedback.
Zoran Stojkovic (32:42):
Are you a fan of sandwich feedback?
Susan Scott (32:43):
No!
Zoran Stojkovic (32:44):
The reason I mentioned it is because you
talked about in the bookspecific specific.
Susan Scott (32:48):
Yeah, yeah. In Australia, they call it the shit
sandwich. Cookie approach, whereyou say, you know, you're doing
a really good job here. ButBaba, Baba, bah, bah, bah, bah,
bah. And I'm, but I'm reallyglad you're a member of this
team. That's, that is noteffective. And I don't know now
(33:09):
the next time you come up to meand you say, Susie, I really
liked the way you did something.
I'm waiting. I'm waiting for theother shoe to fall. But I don't
trust you. Because the last timeyou complimented me on
something, then you hit me witha bat. And I'm still rubbing the
bruise. You know, I mean, so no,that's not good. It needs to be
separate. Ken Blanchard wrote abook many, many years ago, the
(33:32):
60 minute, no, the one minutemanager, the one minute manager,
really good little tiny book,saying that we should catch
people in the act of doingthings. Right. And, and calling
it out right then and there.
Boy, that was awesome. That wasreally good. catch somebody in
the act of doing something notso great pointed out right then
(33:54):
in there. And, and you, youjust, it's not this long
performance review that, youknow, everybody dreads. It's not
that
Zoran Stojkovic (34:07):
you're basically like a sports coach.
You're correcting technique,like immediately. You drip in
that micro feedback, like oftenso people can actually change
it.
Susan Scott (34:16):
Yes. And there are no surprises. I mean, if we do
have a formal, let's talk abouthow you're doing, you know,
there are no surprises, becauseyou and I are current, mostly
we're going to be talking aboutOkay, what's next, you know, the
next level of your developmentor this or that when I'm not
saying oh, well, we do have thisissue with us around. I mean, a
lot of people seem to feel that,you know, and you're going What,
(34:41):
what?
Zoran Stojkovic (34:42):
where did this?
Susan Scott (34:43):
If they feel that way? Why did they say anything
to me? And that is just thateverybody? Everybody has said
that? Boy, she would have beennice if they told me they were
not happy with whatever. Andthey but they didn't. It's it's
Woody Allen once said, I'm notafraid of death, I just don't
want to be in the room when ithappens. I think people feel
(35:07):
that way about feedback.
Zoran Stojkovic (35:10):
Think so too.
Susan Scott (35:11):
Don't know how to do it. And so our training
absolutely takes the curse offof it. And in the book, it's all
in the book, too.
Zoran Stojkovic (35:20):
It is. Team culture is pretty airy fairy,
and it's sometimes hard to put apin on it. So how can leaders
measure and assess it?
Susan Scott (35:29):
Well, you you'll measure it by how many games?
Are you winning? And what's thetalk in the locker room? I mean,
our Pete Carroll, who's thecoach of the Seattle Seahawks is
one of the most amazing andfabulous men walking on this
planet. And I think if if peoplewere to do some research into
(35:55):
the kinds of things he does,with his team, and with
individuals on the team, andthen look how they're Look how
they're performing, you know,they just had a recent loss, but
usually they're they're doingreally well. All the fans 12th
man, you know, we're all there.
We're rooting for them. Thathappens because of Pete Carroll.
(36:18):
And what he, what he offers themand how he talks to them. And
he's not your typical. This is avery old school, but the sort of
cigar chomping you know, Mambacoach, kind of it's not like
that at all.
Zoran Stojkovic (36:39):
No, he's different than he's different
than Belichick
Susan Scott (36:41):
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
And I mean, the team members,how they talk about one another,
how they are supportive of oneanother appreciative of one
another, encouraging oneanother. That all comes from the
heart that comes from the heart.
And it shows up, when you askabout performance, how do you
(37:04):
measure it? Are you winninggames are losing games?
Zoran Stojkovic (37:07):
Is that it?
Susan Scott (37:08):
Well, pretty much, I mean if you
Zoran Stojkovic (37:10):
But I mean, culture, you mentioned that you
can go into, you can go into anorganization. You said, show me
the culture of an organization,I'll tell you how they perform.
Susan Scott (37:21):
Yeah, that's right.
Zoran Stojkovic (37:22):
But how do you What are you looking for? when
you're when you're looking forculture? Is it that openness? Is
it that? Is it some of that?
Susan Scott (37:30):
The relationship, the quality of the
relationships. You walk in.
Let's say you walk into acompany into their lobby, you
quickly get a feel for thedegree of warmth? Where is or
isn't? And I'm the receptionist,look on his or her face? The
welcoming the Can I get you somecoffee or a glass of water or
(37:54):
tea or anything, you know, soglad you're here, let me let so
and so no, and then so and socomes out. And with handshake
extended, when COVID is over, itsays Welcome Hello, come on in
you, you. You have clues bigtails, right then in there, of
whether this organization has apulse. And but you can also look
(38:19):
at their numbers. I mean, youknow, this is this has been this
whole COVID thing has beenreally hard for training
companies, because in anemergency, if companies are not
as profitable as they normallyare, then training is one of the
first things they generally cut,but we actually are doing quite
(38:41):
well. Because companies havejust shifted it to virtual
trainings. And they know howimportant it is to continue to
nurture their people to helptheir people continue to
develop. You know, everybodywants to feel like they're
growing and they're learningthings. And to help them be
productive during thisespecially stressful time when
(39:04):
they don't get to hang outtogether. When we have a lot of
young employees who just flatout love each other. They're
like brothers and sisters witheach other. They, you know, they
come into the office and they'rehanging out and they're laughing
and they're talking about theirweekends and they're playing
games and doing the crosswordwhatever they're doing. Now,
(39:26):
they can't do that. And ithurts. It hurts that we have a
culture committee that wastasked with how do you keep us
connected given that we'rephysically apart, and they've
done a really good job, they'vecome up with all kinds of
things, whether it's a you know,a virtual happy hour or virtual
(39:47):
game or putting little cohortstogether to talk about certain
topics from time to time. Andthey keep mixing it up. So I
don't even remember what youasked me, Zoran. And I think I
wandered off into thewilderness.
Zoran Stojkovic (40:07):
All good. All this is really good. You're
spewing out some really, reallygood gems here. See that? How?
Yeah, you, when you were talkingabout getting a vibe for the
culture, when you walk in what Ithought of is Starbucks Seattle,
started started out in Seattle,whenever you go in, it's not
(40:30):
going to be more than a coupleof seconds before somebody
acknowledges you and says, I'llbe with you in a second.
Susan Scott (40:35):
And so I know what, a few years ago, long before
COVID does have that problem. Ihave to throw something else at
my dog. That Starbucks had had areally tough time. And Howard
Schultz, who founded it cameback into the company. And he
said, you know, we, and this,this was him being totally open,
(40:59):
totally transparent with notonly the employees, but also the
world. He said, we got tooambitious, we opened up too many
stores and too many places allat the same time. We need to go
back to the reason why I startedthis in the first place was a
place for people to gather tomeet to because he got me ideas
(41:23):
from his times in Europe, whenpeople sitting in on the
sidewalk having coffee, andtalking and talking and talking.
And he's and he made a bigchange. One of the things he did
was they had these, thesemachines that were really,
really high and you could notreally see the barista when the
barista was standing behindthose machines, he got rid of
(41:44):
them all. And he got a muchlower machine so that the
barista could talk with youwhile they are making your
coffee. Just things like that.
Um, you know, he stayed true tohis vision of what is what is
Starbucks about? It's aboutcoffee, but it's about a
(42:06):
gathering place. It's about aplace to come.
Zoran Stojkovic (42:10):
Similar to McDonald's and the whole story
of of how that Ray Kroc reallywanted to make it about a place
where families come connectioncommunity, it wasn't about the
burgers that had a perfectsystem for making perfect french
fries. But it wasn't, it wasn'tabout that.
Susan Scott (42:25):
Their french fries are so good.
Zoran Stojkovic (42:29):
Susan, what does cultivating your culture
mean to you?
Susan Scott (42:33):
Well, I'll answer that by telling you a little
story that's also in my book,and I know you're gonna
recognize it. years ago, I wasat a conference with a bunch of
my peers from around the worldwho were all leading these CEO
groups. And one of our speakerswas a Yorkshire born poet named
(42:54):
David white. And he stood up onthe stage in his beautiful
Yorkshire accent. He said, Doyou know the young man who is
newly married, is oftenperplexed, even a little
irritated that this lovelyperson to whom he has planted
His truth, that's how they talk.
And England insists on appearingbefore his face on a regular
(43:15):
basis wanting to talk yet again,about the thing they just talked
about last night last weekend,and it always has something to
do with the quality of therelationship. And he wonders why
are we having this conversationagain? I mean, I told you, I
loved you. I, you know, why arewe having this conversation
(43:36):
again? And David said, we're onabout age 42. And he smiled
because he was 42? Well, I'mabout age 42. If he's been
paying attention, it dawns onhim this ongoing conversation I
have been having with my wife isnot about the relationship. The
conversation is therelationship. So if, if that, I
(44:00):
mean, honestly, I had just lefta long term marriage, and I was
pretty heartbroken about it. ButI felt like he was talking
directly to me. And then I foundout later on that everybody else
in the room felt like he wastalking directly to them. And it
was mostly men. I think I waswonderful, like a handful of
women, this sea of men.
(44:24):
Everybody just was stunned. Andif if you recognize there may be
something to this notion thatthe conversation is the
relationship. Then if theconversation stops, well, you
can do the math. Or if you and Iadd another topic to the list of
(44:45):
things we can't talk aboutbecause it wrecks another
weekend, then all of thepossibilities for our
relationship becomes smaller,and all of the possibilities for
the individuals in therelationship become smaller
until one day I overhear myself,making myself quite small, as if
(45:05):
I'm just the space around myshoes engaged in yet another
three minute conversation thatis so empty of meaning it
crackles. So when I think aboutculture, I think about
relationship, I think about theconversations. And, you know, it
could be a little overwhelmingfeeling, oh, my god, there's all
(45:26):
these conversations I need tohave, but just take it one at a
time, just one at a time. And ifyou want the tips on how to make
those conversations,extraordinary, then all of the
tips are in the book, there areseven principles in each chapter
on that. Even one of them is behere prepared to be nowhere
(45:51):
else. So just being in thisconversation with someone
prepared to be nowhere else, Iput down my cell phone, I'm
looking at the TV, I've closedmy laptop, I'm not thinking
about something that happenedearlier in the day or something
that's coming up, I am Here I amwith you, I am completely
focused. And honestly, one ofthe greatest gifts we can give
(46:13):
another person is the purity ofour attention. So that's one of
the principles. So you know,just take it one conversation at
a time, whether it's with yourwhole group of people, your
entire team, or one member ofyour team. Just take it one at a
time.
Zoran Stojkovic (46:31):
Is there you've mentioned a bunch of these,
Susan, but if there was onepractical tool you wanted to
leave our listeners with, thatthey can use tomorrow to
cultivate the culture of theirteam, what would it be?
Susan Scott (46:45):
To be fierce, the simplest definition of a fierce
conversation is one in which wecome out from behind ourselves
into our conversations, and makethem real. And some people are
afraid of real and yet it's theUnreal conversations that ought
to scare us to death becausethey're incredibly expensive. So
(47:10):
just start practicing,disclosing what you're really
thinking and feeling. Don'twithhold, make it real. And see
what happens. I mean, it couldgo well, it could not go well.
But at least you will have saidone thing that was real for you.
And that's you being fierce,that's you navigating, testing
(47:32):
the waters, dipping your toe inand coming out from behind
yourself, you know, people haveall of these images that they
present. And they're differentimages depending on who they're
with, you know, my image for myboss my image for my coworker,
(47:53):
my image for my community, myimage for my priest, my rabbi,
my minister, my image for, youknow, and we can get to the
place where we're unrecognizableto ourselves, because we've got
so many images going on. Sothrow that out. We're not
interested in your highlypolished, glossy image. We're
(48:14):
not attracted to that we canfind that on any street corner,
we want the real you becausethere's only one of you. You're
it. You are the unique person.
There's there's one Zoran onthis planet. And so that's the
person we want to hang out withthat real real person. And and
when people are real with us, wetend to be real with them back.
(48:38):
So we you know, don't wait forsomebody else to do this. You go
first model. You go first andtake the take the leap.
Zoran Stojkovic (48:53):
Wow, that's a that's a great, great wrap up
and a great tool to leave peoplewith Susan, tell me is there
what I was gonna ask about abook or resource that has shaped
your understanding of culture?
You have two great books a thirdone coming out. Is there
something else that you would?
Susan Scott (49:09):
Well, I have you may find this to be appalling,
but I hardly ever, ever readnonfiction. I'm an English
major. I like a good story. Iread fiction.
Zoran Stojkovic (49:22):
Great, what's a good fiction?
Susan Scott (49:23):
God, I wouldn't even know where to start. I
mean, there's and there's somany different genres that I
love. I love anything byFrederic Bachman. But I mean,
there's just there's a gazillionthings. So I did I've just I've
gathered my thoughts aboutculture because of being awake
in the world, and payingattention to what's happening.
(49:44):
It's not that I sat down atsomebody's feet and they said
this is you know, this is whatyou need to do or that I read a
book about it. And it's thatmight sound ironic since I ended
up writing a book about it but Ididn't want to but everybody
kept saying you have got towrite this This down and Okay, I
thought I was going to write thegreat American novel, but I
(50:05):
guess I'm gonna write this andthen, you know, it's led to
wonderful things. So I would sayyes, please, if you don't have
fierce conversations, fierceleadership, I would start there
even go to our website, which isjust fierce Inc. I nc.com. Check
out what we do. We're doing allkinds of really cool stuff.
(50:26):
These days. We're doing 3dsimulations. We're doing stuff
on Well, I can't even think ofwhat you call it right now. But
just all there are a lot oftopics that are important right
now. Were having to do withwhether it's race or gender
issues, or inclusion orprejudice, or whatever it is,
(50:46):
oh, microaggressions. That's theword I was looking for. You
know, what are those? How do Inavigate? You know, how do I not
say the wrong thing. But withoutbeing so cautious that I don't
say anything at all. I mean,there, we have a lot of new
things that we're doing. And I'mreally excited about what we're
(51:06):
doing. So yeah, fear sink, andthen my books, but I think if
you just if you just start beingreal, and see where it takes
you, you might be pleasantlysurprised and it might not take
you as many conversations as youthink it will to achieve what
you want to achieve.
Zoran Stojkovic (51:25):
That's huge.
Susan, thank you so much fortaking the time today to speak
to our listeners and to shareyour insight your your knowledge
or systems and it was really agreat conversation. I know I'm
gonna I'm gonna be listening toit back again.
Susan Scott (51:37):
Thank you. Sorry.
And thank you for having me. Itwas really a pleasure. Thank
you.
Zoran Stojkovic (51:41):
Hope to do this again. And and I hope you can
come up to visit, visit theisland again.
Susan Scott (51:45):
you know, well, when the curse is lifted, I
probably will let you know I'mgonna hit it on duration.
Zoran Stojkovic (51:56):
Hey, thanks for tuning in to cultivate your
culture, rate and reviewerpodcast on iTunes. Any websites
and resources mentioned in thepodcast as well as the guests
information can be found on theshow at www.kizo.ca/podcast.
Here's a sneak peek of what'scoming up in our episode next
week.
Landon Gorbenko (52:20):
You see a lot of culture issues that way
because they just never learnedhow to resolve conflict, how to
work together towards one goal.
So everybody's kind of pushingtowards their own goal. And then
you get this big tension becauseeverybody's going off on
slightly different directions.
You got to we got to rein it inso that everybody's going
towards one unified vision.
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