Composting 101: Everything you need to know to get started

Episode Transcript
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Sound Effect (00:00):
[music]

Jordan Powers (00:00):
Welcome to Cultivating Curiosity where we
get down and dirty with theexperts on all the ways science
and agriculture touch our lives,from what we eat to how we live.
I'm Jordan Powers.

Emily Cabrera (00:12):
And I'm Emily Cabrera. We're from the
University of Georgia's Collegeof Agricultural and
Environmental Sciences.

[chime]

Earlier this month, we celebrated
International Compost AwarenessWeek, and we're gearing up for
National Learn About CompostingDay on May 29, which focuses on
educating people about thebenefits and processes of
composting, a natural way torecycle organic waste and create
valuable soil amendments. We'rein the studio today with Josh
Fuder and Laura Ney, Agricultureand Natural Resource Extension

(00:42):
agents for Cherokee andAthens-Clark counties,
respectively.

Josh, Laura, thanks so much for coming in
today. Before we get into thenuts and bolts or the banana
peels and coffee filters. Whatis compost?

Josh Fuder (00:55):
Compost is a valuable soil amendment; is the
way I would use it as say, agardener, a great form of slow
release nutrients and a greatway to add organic matter to our
soil.

So you mentioned that this is an amendment. Can
you get into that a little bit?
Can I plant all of my spring andsummer vegetables in compost?

Josh Fuder (01:16):
Yeah, I think that's a great question. And something
we see in county offices all thetime is folks will build the
raised bed garden in thebackyard, and it gets filled
with essentially 100% compost,or, you know, something similar.
And they will usually call usafter that first half year or
first year of unsuccessfulgardening. You know, we've done

(01:38):
enough testing with these folksover the years, and realize
typically in those raised bedsituations with just that,
oftentimes the pH is quite high.
I've tested some materials thatare well above eight which on
the pH scale, most vegetablesdon't want to be that high, and
oftentimes the nutrients arestill really, really high. Not
to say that that was badcompost, but again, the goal of
that material is really meant tobe an amendment, couple inches

(02:02):
tilled into, say, a mineral soilor a native soil, and then we're
improving that native soil, bothin South Georgia in sand, and in
North Georgia in clay.

Laura Ney (02:12):
It's important to keep in mind too, that just
because it looks like compost oris an amendment or looks like
good dirt, what makes compostcompost are the processes that
we use to manage the waste thatwe're putting into those piles.
And so, if we reach certaintemperatures and get certain
microbial communities activated,then the physical and chemical
reactions happening to thatproduct is what makes the really

(02:34):
special end product, which wecall compost.

It's alive.

It's alive [laughter]. We were just talking
about this the other day, and Ilove that the science of
compost, because it is! I thinkit's easy to think, oh, I go to
my local hardware store and Igrab the bag. But realizing that
there are so many processes thatcome there, and we will
acknowledge, right off the batfor this episode that we are
just barely scratching thesurface of compost and the
processes, and we will be sureto include a wealth of

(03:00):
information and resources in theshow notes for our listeners who
may hear this and say, "Okay,now I want to know more. Let's
dig deeper." In the meantime,we've all heard composting is a
good thing, but why shouldsomeone consider taking on this
endeavor?

Laura Ney (03:12):
It's interesting. You would think it's pretty
straightforward. So, I alwayscomposted because I like
gardening, and my obvious answerto that was, I want something
really beneficial to put into mygarden, and I never even thought
about other reasons forcomposting. But as I've worked
with the county and Extensionrole, and we've worked with
Master Composters, I've learneda lot more about other reasons.
So even if you don't have agarden, or you're not that

(03:34):
interested in gardening, or youdon't have space, there's great
reasons to compost; one of whichis just keeping organic material
out of the landfill; and thatcan help your city or your
municipality, because it'sexpensive to manage organic
waste in the landfill. But alsobecause organic waste in the
landfill creates a lot ofmethane gas, which is a huge
contributor to global warmingand ozone depletion, is actually

(03:56):
comes out of our landfills, andspecifically the organic matter
that we put into it. So bycomposting, if you care not at
all about plants [laughter], youcan actually be doing a little
kind of mini blessing for theenvironment there.

Josh Fuder (04:09):
Maybe, a kind of pie in the sky reason that I enjoy
composting is really I thinkabout the global food system and
the bananas and the coffee andthe things that I eat or use.
And then, you know, that may besomething that was grown in
another part of the world oranother part of the country by
people I'll never meet, andthose are nutrients or sources
of carbon that I now get to use,that grew something in

(04:32):
California or Honduras orsomething like that. So that is
something that in my compostingat home, I do try to consider
and think about too, is now Ican grow, hopefully healthier
plants with some of thesesunlight, water and nutrients
that came from somewhere else inthe world.

I love that so much [laughter].

Josh Fuder (04:47):
[laughter]

I don't even have words for how much I love that.
I mean really talking aboutglobal gardening.

Josh Fuder (04:51):
Yeah.

Right here at home, which is really, that's
really special.

So we've covered the what and why. Now let's get
into how to compost. We know theamount of space listeners may
have to take up composting willvary. Is there a composting
method for everyone?

Josh Fuder (05:05):
I certainly believe there is. There's a lot of ways
to compost, and there's a numberof ways to kind of
unsuccessfully compost, andthat's kind of a journey I've
gone on. And it took me, oneadopting some worms about 10
years ago, and going to atraining actually here in
Athens. It was a multi daycompost operation, like large

(05:26):
scale composting, and we got totour the Athens facility. And my
world had changed after that;thought of it differently,
because I was very much like alot of composters, an organic
trash heap. It wasn't really aninvolved process. It broke down,
it decomposed, but it wasn'treally composting. I mean, the
goal with composting is,hopefully, we're making it

(05:48):
faster. We're speeding up thatdecomposition process, or maybe
making something that's a littlebit higher quality that is
usable, and not just, you know,stuff that still has pine cones
in it. Sure it's decomposedorganic matter, but it's
probably not compost. So a lotof ways to compost worm bins to
tumblers to just a heap. There'smany ways, and I think there is

(06:12):
something out there that can fiteven for somebody with a small
yard or even in an apartment ora school classroom.

Laura Ney (06:19):
Absolutely, I myself have also failed at composting
many times, and a lot of timesI'll just do my sort of lazy
man's compost in the backyard,which is really just my
decomposition pile, which isperfectly fine.

Josh Fuder (06:31):
Organic trash heap.

Laura Ney (06:32):
Yeah.

Josh Fuder (06:32):
Those are organic trash heap.

Laura Ney (06:32):
Okay.

[laughter]

Josh Fuder (06:34):
No judgment. Those are great.

Laura Ney (06:35):
We can talk a little bit later about maybe what the
differences are between your endproduct doing that and doing
compost. But in terms of how tocompost, I have found that you
can do a heap, but having somesort of wall or structure to
keep that heap together can bereally helpful. You'll notice
that, especially as your pilebreaks down, the heaps will get
flatter and flatter and willspread out. And the problem with

(06:56):
that is, an important part ofcomposting is building up the
temperature inside of your pile;and as your pile disperses and
becomes flatter and doesn't havethe cubic dimensions that it
should, you can't build up thatheat. And so whether or not you
use chicken wire or cattle panelor some pallets or a few boards,
you can use whatever you want,but having some walls or

(07:17):
structures around your heap canbe really helpful.

Josh Fuder (07:19):
And I would add multiple either bins for worms.
Multiple bins outside is usuallya good thing, so we have one
that we're in that process, asLaura described, of building,
and then hopefully we have onethat's finishing, and maybe
we're starting to use. That'sone way I was failing, and I see
it a lot in, you know, evencommunity gardens and other

(07:39):
places, is they have one bigpile, and it's never at a stage
where we're starting to actuallymaybe get to use and apply some
of that compost. So I think oneof the easier things is just
maybe add a second bin or athird bin.

I will absolutely admit I have done this too,
where I just kept adding andadding to the same pile, and did
not think about having multiplepiles, and I ended up with an
organic trash heap that was alsoliquefying.

Oh no.

Everyone (08:07):
[laughter]

So having kind of that cyclical nature of one you
can currently use, one you'recurrently feeding. And for those
of our listeners who don't havespace to do any of this, our
friends over at UGArden actuallyhave an amazing service that you
can drop off your compost tothem for free, so we will be
sure to link that in the shownotes as well, because for some
of us, we may not have any spaceor the time or the energy or the

(08:28):
interest, but we hope thatlisteners at least consider this
as we kind of dive deeper. Andif UGArden is kind of outside of
your range, where it's easyenough or convenient enough to
drop off, certainly check orgoogle your local municipality
or any private companies thatmight be in your area that offer
similar services. Now let'spivot to the do's and don'ts of
composting, right? We just heardI'm talking about a liquefied

(08:49):
pile [laughter], so we certainlywant to make sure that we're not
doing that. I think we've allbeen there, that we've gone, "I
don't know if we're supposed tothrow this in, but here we go."
So Josh, what are the kinds ofthings that we should make sure
we're adding to our compostpiles?

Josh Fuder (09:01):
A lot of this is dependent on if we have a
contained system, say a tumbleror a nice, clean things on the
market, like the plastic binsthat might keep rodents, 'cause
a lot of the rules that we saydon't compost this is because,
well, it may draw vermin or itmay create a nuisance. Greens
and browns are usually how wedefine compost ingredients.
Either they are, say, at 25 to 1carbon to nitrogen ratio, or

(09:24):
they're above that, and they'rea brown more of a carbon source.
At our house, it's usually justthe uncooked portions, the fruit
skins, the bottom of thebroccoli and things like that,
coffee grounds, those are kindof the common ingredients that
go into ours, egg shells andwhatnot.

Laura Ney (09:41):
Like Josh said, like greens and browns is how you
usually hear it if you'recreating your own compost bin at
home. That's just a really niceway of explaining stuff that has
nitrogen, that's sort of thefuel of the composting process
and the microbes, but then thecarbon is the actual organic
matter that we're composting,and the living things in the
compost need a ratio like Joshwas mentioning, and they need a

(10:02):
specific ratio. So when we talkabout doing maybe 1/3 greens or
nitrogen heavy stuff and 2/3browns, it's because we're
trying to reach that kind ofGoldilocks ratio for the
microbes. And so if you hearabout those recipes, we're just
trying to get the ratio rightfor the living things that are
eating all of that stuff andprocessing it. It's tricky when
you say greens and browns,'cause our greens are in our

(10:22):
greens are not all green, andour browns are brownish,
usually, but banana peels notreally green, but that would
definitely be a green. A tomatois still considered our green.
It's the wetter stuff.
Typically, a fresher item wouldbe considered a green, and an
older kind of drier item wouldbe a brown. So for instance,
freshly cut grass would be agreen because it still has all
the nitrogen in it, but olderleaves or grass clippings that

(10:43):
have been sitting for a longtime that are essentially straw,
that would be a brown. Inaddition to just that general
ratio of trying to make the pilehappy. Then you also have to
consider what you have aroundthe house, and I guess we're
kind of pivoting into ourdon'ts.

I was just gonna say.

Laura Ney (10:59):
It's hard to talk about your do's without your
don'ts. An easy way to thinkabout, it is the raw stuff is
typically good, and just don'tget too complicated in your
head. If it's cooked and comingoff of your plate, you usually
don't want that in your backyardcompost. The municipal compost,
they get really really hot, canhandle that stuff. So
Athens-Clark County is anexample of that, where they
accept everything besides fecesand dead things and whatever,

(11:23):
but like almost everything,because it gets so hot, but
you're just not gonna reachthose temperatures. And then
there's safety issues and pestissues in your backyard bin that
you don't wanna mess with. Wealso tend to stay away from the
breads and the oils, and a lotof us have maybe chicken or
rabbits or something, andthey're excrement, for radio
appropriate term [laughter] canbe used, and those are great

(11:46):
sources of nutrients for yourcompost. You just want to keep
in mind, if you're ever doing ananimal waste, there are kind of
limits on what you want to usethat compost on. I mean, it's
great for ornamentals. Shouldn'tbe a problem if it's like a corn
or something that's not reallytouching the ground directly,
there aren't problems. Butunless you're really good about
monitoring your temperatures andthings, it's advised totally you

(12:09):
can use that compost, but don'tuse it on certain things that
are going to come into groundcontact, 'cause you just don't
know if you're killing off thepotential bacteria and things in
there.

Josh Fuder (12:18):
And I think that's why a lot of folks end up being
unsuccessful composters or moreorganic trash heapers. Again, no
judgment. But it's when theyhave the volume of greens
doesn't match when they mighthave the volume of browns, which
is, for most people, fallleaves. We don't have a lot of
extra greens or nitrogen sourceto blend with that higher carbon

(12:42):
input, which is typically justfall leaves for most people in
the backyard. It's once a year,they have a lot of browns, and
then they don't really have allthe kitchen scraps or the grass
clippings to mix in and helpbreak it down.

Laura Ney (12:54):
I think that's a top five barriers to successful
compost is just having what youneed for that ratio all at the
same time. It's pretty easy tostockpile browns, because they
don't go bad or really goanywhere. You can just literally
have a pile of wood chips orfall leaves or grass clippings.
It's really hard to stockpilethe greens because they get
gross. I've seen people they'reinterested in composting.

(13:15):
They'll have their friends orneighbors collect their kitchen
scraps, and then adding it alltogether can really make a
difference.

All right, so now we know what to include, and
maybe more importantly, what notto include. Do we set it and
forget it?

Josh Fuder (13:30):
Not if we want to actually be composting.

[laughter] Okay.

Josh Fuder (13:34):
No, we would hopefully be turning it to
maintain that heat, thatthermophilic stage, if we truly
built a batch, which ideallywould be, you know, a critical
mass of maybe about a yard, 3 ft× 3 ft × 3 ft. That's usually
about what you need to hopefullyreach temperature stages. And
then, yes, we're very muchinvolved. Every four or five

(13:54):
days, hopefully, we're aeratingor turning it somehow so that we
can kind of maintain thatcritical temperature fully. Then
we're sterilizing weed seeds,even pepper seeds and cantaloupe
seeds, all the stuff that may bein there. Otherwise, you're
going to be growing the bestvolunteer plants all across your
landscape when you go to usethis compost that should then

(14:15):
hopefully be neutralizing ofpathogens, but also, you know,
seeds. Those thermophilicstages, ideally, would be in
that 130 to 160 degree range.
I've had a batch make it up toabout 170, that's a little hot.
At a certain stage, if it getstoo hot, it can actually then
sterilize your good bacteriathat are doing the work. So,
aeration hopefully will thenbring that down, kind of cool,

(14:38):
that powerhouse that's going on,generating all that heat. But
even in the summertime, I'llhave a pile that, I mean is hot
to touch, and that's just thebiological activity going on.
Yeah, yeah. That is all based onhaving a good ratio, too, and
moisture, right? Those bacterialive on films of water. So we
usually want that material aboutlike a rung out sponge.

So would there be any need to put shade over a
compost pile if it's gettinghot, or water it if it's getting
too dry?

Laura Ney (15:08):
That's a great question. So the shade is not
really necessary. Typically,it's not that it could get too
hot, because we usually get ituncomfortably hot to the touch,
so the sun's not a problem, andit could actually, in cooler
weather, help you. Drying outcould be potentially an issue,
if we're not getting a lot ofrain. If you have it under
cover, it may stay moist longer.
So it depends on what you'restruggling.

Josh Fuder (15:28):
Or it may get too wet.

Laura Ney (15:29):
Yeah.

Josh Fuder (15:29):
If it doesn't have cover.

Laura Ney (15:30):
But it can get too wet.

Josh Fuder (15:32):
And then it could get gross.

Laura Ney (15:33):
So if you're you have a lot of rain, and your piles
getting too wet, a cover couldhelp you manage that moisture.
If you know you're not gettingout there and watering it and
it's getting too dry, you maywanna have it rained on or give
it some shade. It's sort of likeanything else; depending on what
you're struggling with, you cankind of troubleshoot with how
you place it. The whole recipefor compost is, like a lot of

(15:56):
things, it's gonna be those two,the carbon and nitrogen, which
is sort of like the energy forthe microbes. And then when we
talk about moisture, you're alsoalways really talking about
oxygen as well. So you just needthe carbon, nitrogen, some
moisture, like will repeat therung out sponge is a good sort
of indicator you don't want itdripping out of your fist if you
took a handful of it, 'causethat means it's saturated, so

(16:18):
there's not enough air in it.
And that can sometimes our pilesturn into what we call like a
goopy mess, and it can start tosmell it's a really common
troubleshooting issue, and itmay have just gotten rained on
too much, or there's not gooddrainage under where it is.
Sometimes having it on like alittle bit of a slope can help,
because then excess water willrun away from it, instead of
just sitting under the pile, andthen the turning introduces more
of that oxygen as well. So therecipe is both complicated and

(16:41):
really simple. It's just carbon,nitrogen, oxygen, water, and you
just kind of play with it untilyou figure it out.

It sounds like it is kind of a low risk for people
who may be getting into it thatdon't need the compost for the
survival of their plants or fortheir garden. It's kind of a low
risk, fun way to experiment withthe science of our soil.

Laura Ney (17:02):
Absolutely. In my opinion, going back to the
question of, can you set it andforget it? Really, the answer is
no. If you want to becomposting, it is, by
definition, a human-managed,like highly managed system. You
are supposed to actively becomposting it. It's not going to
compost on its own. It'lldecompose on its own, but you're
not going to be reaching thosetemperatures. You're not going

(17:22):
to have the physical andchemical reactions and
properties going on within thatorganic matter if you're not
turning it, which is introducingoxygen, which is essentially
fanning the flames of themicrobial activity they breathe,
just like we do. So you'rebuilding populations as you get
oxygen in there. You could alsopotentially be buffering too
high of a temperature when youturn it, you're mixing in the

(17:43):
outsides into the insides. Sothe turning and keeping an eye
on the temperature to see whatstage it's in, and if you should
be turning more or less, is veryimportant to composting, and
it's fun. You're talking aboutbanana peels. I mean, you know,
if you mess it up, it's not abig deal, and it's definitely a
cool scientific process, and togo from your kitchen scraps and

(18:03):
then at the end of however manyweeks or a few months, and to
hold it in your hand and smellit and look at it and it's not
the same thing is pretty cool.

So we have dealt with our carbon and our nitrogen
and our water and our oxygen,we've turned our compost. Now,
can we throw it right into ourgarden beds? What's next?

Laura Ney (18:22):
I'm glad you asked that, and a lot of times we
haven't even touched on one ofthe trickiest parts is maybe
you're doing everything you'resupposed to do with your compost
pile, and it's looking great.
But how do you know it's ready?
If you have a thermometer, Iwould highly recommend, if you
really want to get into this,you can get some pretty
affordable compost thermometers;that would be a great way to go.
If you don't have a thermometer,you can just kind of check on

(18:42):
how hot or steamy the pile iswhen you turn it. You want to
continue your turning processand getting up to that
temperature that you want to getto until it just won't heat up
anymore. And you know, if you'vebeen heating it up, and it's not
just because you've donesomething wrong, but it's been
working well, and then it justkind of peters out, and it stops
heating up as much. That's asign that a lot of your material

(19:02):
has been broken down and kind oftransformed the way we want it
to be. But even then, there's aprocess called curing, and I'm
not gonna lie, it's sort of amysterious concept. We've been
heating up the pile andencouraging all of these, what
are called thermophilicmicrobes, because they like high
temperatures to do their job inthe compost. But over years and

(19:23):
years and years of peoplecreating compost, we've realized
that the curing phase is veryimportant, and that's letting
those normal temperature microbepopulations recolonize the piles
and continue to process it anddo their own processes, and
essentially, they just sort ofeven out the compost. Josh
mentioned something called beinghot, and that can be, if there's

(19:45):
minerals and nitrogens incertain forms in the compost, it
can be sometimes detrimental toplanting directly into that. So
they're just sort of finishingthe process and breaking
everything down to where it'sstable, and that's called
curing. And there's no exacttime for that, but I would
recommend, once your pile stopsheating up, to leave it for at
least several weeks of justletting it sit there and breathe

(20:08):
and then using it.

So that begs the question, we've talked about
organic matter and those organicheaps and compost. What is the
difference between compost andthis decomposed organic matter
we're talking about?

Laura Ney (20:20):
So most people don't ever think about this. So this
is a fun question or thing totalk about this. A lot of people
who use compost for years havenever really thought about the
difference. And it reallysometimes it looks very similar,
and both can have great effectson your garden and be good
amendments. But when you getdown into the sort of soil
science of it, basically thecomposting process, one Josh

(20:41):
mentioned, on a practical scale,is you're just getting it much
faster. You're breaking thatstuff down. I mean, you're
talking about sometimes close to10 times faster, as if you just
left it to its own devices tobreak down. But in addition to
that, you're transforming thosereally simple organic molecules
where get just a tiny bitchemistry in here, but sugars
and carbohydrates, like thethings that we eat that would be

(21:03):
in our plant refuse that we'reputting in there. And you're
transforming it with all thosemicrobial communities, and even
sometimes the actual physicalheat, into really complex
organic molecules. And thereason that matters is those
molecules have all these coolfunctions in the soil where they
don't just evaporate off of thesurface of your garden when you
till it, or when it's brokendown further, it can hold on to

(21:25):
nutrients, because it's a reallycomplex molecule with all these
little edges, just like ourclays and things that can has
buffering capacity to affect ourpH and keep it in a stable
range. It does all sorts ofreally cool things, just because
those molecules have been turnedinto something much more
complicated than they were whenthey went in the pile.

That's so cool.
[laughter]

I'm convinced this summer is gonna be hot
compost summer.

Everyone (21:48):
[laughter]

Hot compost summer. [laughter]

Everyone (21:50):
[laughter]

But not too hot.
[laughter]

Not too hot, not too hot.

A complicated yet not an all around us, very fun
process, a low risk thing forlisteners to dive into. I've
learned a ton. I know I'vestarted a few failed compost
piles or organic matter heaps,is what I'm now learning. I
should have been calling.

Goopy messes.

Goopy messes.

Laura Ney (22:10):
[laughter]

We were so excited to have this
conversation, hopefully getlisteners a little snippet of
how they can get started. As Imentioned earlier, we will
absolutely include a ton ofresources from UGA Cooperative
Extension and beyond in the shownotes, including an article that
Laura wrote for our college oncomposting tips. And of course,
we couldn't have you all inwithout putting a shameless plug
in. If you have questions, findyour local county Extension

(22:33):
agent through UGA CooperativeExtension, and we'll put that
link in the show notes. If youdon't know who your local agent
is. To find them, we have agreat resource to do that,
because they will happily pointyou in the right direction to
get started on your owncomposting journey. But in the
meantime, Laura, Josh, thank youso much for coming in today. We
had a blast.

Laura Ney (22:50):
Thank you so much for having us.

[music]

Thanks for listening to Cultivating
Curiosity, a podcast produced bythe UGA College of Agricultural
and Environmental Sciences. Aspecial thanks to Mason
McClintock for our music andsound effects. Find more
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