June 28, 2023 • 24 mins
Joining me on this episode of the Culture Secrets podcast is Jennifer McClure. She has experience in various HR roles, including leadership and executive positions. She also spent about four years in executive search. Since 2010, she has had her own business as a professional speaker, focusing on people strategies and talent acquisition.
In the current landscape, talent is scarce, and people are changing jobs more frequently. This makes it challenging to recruit and retain talent, as candidates often demand higher salaries and have shorter career tenures. The way people approach work has shifted, and organizations need to adapt to these changes.
Culture has become a significant factor for individuals considering job opportunities. Even before 2020, culture was already a top consideration for job seekers. However, defining culture can be challenging as it varies based on individual perspectives and experiences within the organization. Companies need to ensure their stated values align with the actions and behaviors of their leaders and employees.
To evaluate the culture of an organization, job seekers should first determine what is important to them. They should then research companies and ask relevant questions during interviews to gauge whether the organization aligns with their values and preferences. Platforms like Glassdoor can provide aggregate employee reviews, although it's essential to consider the overall picture and not rely solely on disgruntled employees' comments.
Overall, understanding and assessing culture is crucial for both job seekers and organizations. A strong culture that aligns with employees' values can attract and retain top talent.
Thanks for listening. Grab the book the podcast is based on at https://mybook.to/culturesecrets . Check out my website www.chelliephillips.com for more great content. Follow me on LinkedIn.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Chellie Phillips (00:06):
If workplace culture is your jam, you're in
the right place. Check out thisepisode of culture secrets, the
podcast dedicated to creatingworkplaces for both employees
and the companies thrive. Onthis episode of the culture
secrets podcast, I'm joined byJennifer McClure. She's the CEO
of unbridled talent and disruptHR. She is also a keynote
(00:28):
speaker who travels the globesharing her insights with 1000s.
and a high performance coach whohelps leaders to leverage their
influence, increase their impactand accelerate their results.
She is recognized as a globalinfluence or an expert on the
future of work, strategicleadership and innovative people
strategies. She has decades ofexperience working with everyone
from startups to Fortune 500organizations, her expertise
(00:51):
comes from her HR experience herwork as an executive recruiter,
and the lessons learned andshared as an executive coach.
Today, Jennifer is sharing aconversation with us centered
around talent and culture in theworkplace. I can't wait for you
to hear what she has to say.
Give me a little bit of yourbackground, Jennifer, like how
long have you been working inthe recruiting field and kind of
what are some of the things thatyou're seeing out there right
(01:13):
now?
Jennifer McClure (01:15):
Well, I said 18 and a half years and HR,
generalist roles, leadership andexecutive roles. So had
responsibility for recruitingand all of those positions from
everything from the janitor tothe CEO have some experience
there. And then I spent almostfour years or about four years
in executive search after that,working with a company to retain
(01:37):
search, bring in leaders intoorganizations of all types.
Since 2010, I've had my ownbusiness where and I am a
professional speaker, talk abouttopics related to people
strategies, which more and moreyou know, I'm not direct
recruiting anymore, it's been awhile. So I certainly talk more
about concepts, rather than thehow tos. In the beginning, I
talked a lot about now tos, butmore from the standpoint of you
(01:58):
know, what you need in order tobe successful in recruiting
talent to your organization,what is required from
leadership, etc. trends rightnow, everyone is hair on fire,
and, you know, stressed out tothe max, because for a lot of
reasons, you know, talent isscarce, people are changing
jobs, it's difficult not only torecruit talent for a lot of
reasons, but then if you canfind someone that has the skills
(02:21):
that you want there, they want alot, a lot more money than they
did in the past. And so thatthat causes internal equity
issues, if you end up having topay that in order to get talent.
And then of course, people havechanged their mindsets, in terms
of you know, it was happening,certainly before the pandemic,
they weren't thinking of 2030year careers, maybe they were
thinking of 1015 year careers.
But now they're thinking of yearand a half, two and a half
(02:44):
years, and then moving on towhat's next. So I think that's
causing a lot of leaders atcompanies to have to really
rethink a lot of things in termsof what they thought were
reasons why people would jointheir company before sometimes
it's a real wake up call thatwhat they thought was important
is not why they joined thecompany 20 years ago is not why
someone would join today andthat people, you know, Will Will
(03:04):
there be ebbs and flows, youknow, right now talents in the
driver's seat? Will it go backto employers being in the
driver's seat with a lot lesschoice and higher unemployment
at some point, certainly. But Istill think that the way people
are approaching work has changedforever, and will continue to
change. And so I see a lot ofemployers who are some are
sticking their head in the sandand saying, I hope it goes back
(03:26):
to quote, normal, some are like,I don't like this new way of
work. And I want everybody tothink like me, that's not
working. And then some aresaying we don't really
understand what we need to do inorder to kind of move into this
new phase of working, but yetthey're trying to learn. And
then of course, some companiesand organizations are doing
really well.
Chellie Phillips (03:45):
So one of the things that we're seeing more
and more is that culture issomething that people who are
looking to make a shift orlooking at new opportunities are
really paying attention to you.
Have you seen that as well withwhat you're doing?
Jennifer McClure (03:59):
Yeah, I think culture, if you looked at some
of the survey data, again, evenbefore 2020 culture was becoming
the number one reason why peoplewould consider joining an
organization or leaving anorganization. So that's just
continued. I think the challengethere is defining what culture
is, and what it means to whom,you know, what a company says is
our culture, you know, we valuehonesty and integrity, and blah,
(04:23):
blah, blah. And that's what's onthe plaque and the lobby and the
cards they give out toemployees. But then the culture
is what people actually reallyfeel and their experience with
work which if you have 10employees or 10,000 employees,
that ultimately means you've gota lot of different perspectives
on what the culture is. So Ithink the challenge is still
there to set kind of theoverarching values of a company
(04:43):
to understand you know, who weare and what we work, but then
also understand or how we workbut also understand that each
individual leader and their teamis going to have a mini culture
within the culture. So how doyou kind of make sure that those
are connected to what you want?
have to be
Chellie Phillips (05:01):
like that, that many cultures throughout
the organization and as so true,I mean, I've seen it in my own
corporate life as well, likedifferent departments function
so much better than othersbecause of the freedom of
information that thecommunication that they have the
the getting to know people on apersonal level, and that kind of
thing, as I've been doingresearch for this book. It's
funny for some people, when Italk to them about culture, and
(05:22):
I'm going to cut for lack of abetter word, I call them the
tech industry idea of whatculture is like with ping pong
tables, and the snacks and thebreak room, and then all this
other kind of stuff. And that'swhat makes culture but I think
that's the wrong way of lookingat it. And you use the word that
I really liked when you'retalking about the values that
the organization stands for andthe people. So in your opinion,
(05:43):
how can a company communicatethe value aspect of what they're
what they're bringing to thetable in a way that is that
connects with potential employeeemployees are even the current
employees that they have thatthey want to make sure that they
keep and maintain instead ofhave to re hire for positions,
because someone has decidedthat, oh, this is maybe not the
(06:04):
best fit for me anymore?
Jennifer McClure (06:05):
Sure, well, I mean, values are something you
have to walk the talk, you cansay a lot of things. But if
you're not, if your leadersaren't actually living it out in
their organizations, if yourvalues are that we value work
life balance, and we want peopleto be whole people inside and
outside of work, but then youhave a leader who's sending
emails in the evening andcalling people on the weekends
and expecting people to be inthe office, five days a week
(06:29):
from eight, five, when they'rethere than that's not walk in
the values and people won't feelthat. So I think with anything,
if you say your values aroundsustainability, it has to be
more than just a logo on yourwebsite, you have to have
leaders who are out in thecommunity demonstrating the
commitment to sustainability, Ithink you see a lot of that,
where people will talk aboutdiversity, and inclusion and
(06:50):
belonging as part of you know,being who they are, what they're
about. But then you look at thepicture of their leaders on the
website, and they're all whitemales, there's no involvement in
the community and diverseorganizations don't have anyone
in leadership positions thatare, you know, diverse
employees, or they have one andthat person is brought to every
interview, you know, so thereare ways that values are not
really lived out. And I thinkpeople see that and they're much
(07:13):
more attuned to it now,especially diversity, equity
inclusion is a good one that alot of companies will say it's
part of their culture or theirvalues, but they haven't take
the time to really think about,well, how are we living that
out?
Chellie Phillips (07:25):
How important do you think it is, for an
organization for the culture,just discussion, not to just
start at the upper level, butthat it includes multi levels
from inside that organization?
Jennifer McClure (07:39):
Well, I mean, the culture is the whole
organization. So again, ifyou're just at the top levels,
talking about what what cultureis, and you're just creating a
statement to put on a piecepage, it's not the lived
culture, a definition of culturehas always been the employees
experience of working for thecompany, and what they what
they're telling other peopletheir experiences. So that's all
(07:59):
employees. So any company thatthinks they're going to go away
on a retreat and do theirmission, vision values, and
establish their culture ismissing the boat with their
leadership team, because that'snot ever going to be what the
culture is, or will be.
Chellie Phillips (08:12):
So if someone is looking right now for maybe
the next opportunity for them,what is the piece of advice that
you would give them as far ashow to evaluate a culture inside
an organization because we knowboth sides are on their on their
best game, when you come to theinterview, everybody's talking
the game, everybody's showingup? You know, they got their
best outfits on and ready to go.
So how can a potential employeedive a little deeper and make
(08:36):
sure they're getting an accuratepicture of something before they
sign on?
Jennifer McClure (08:41):
Why do you think first they have to do the
work of figuring out what isimportant to them? You know,
when I worked in executivesearch, I'd meet with a lot of
executives who were intransition, I gave away 10% of
my time to help executives intransition. And so I'd start
with, you know, what are youlooking for what's important to
you? And I can't tell you howmany times I wish I'd written a
book, then, you know, I'd bemeeting with like a 45 year old
(09:02):
senior sales VP, who, you know,has either been let go laid off
or you know, downsized orwhatever. And so you're talking,
I'm talking to him, and I'mlike, so what do you want your
next job. And he's like, youknow, I traveled all the time.
In my last job, I commuted towork in San Francisco from
Cincinnati, and I missed my kidsgrowing up. And so I'm at a
stage in life where I reallywant to be home for my kids, I
(09:22):
don't want to travel anymore,maybe one day a week. Okay, so
to hear all this from them, andthen like couple months later, I
get an email from home or acall, maybe like I took a job.
I'm like, great when you take ajob. Well, the company's in San
Francisco and I'll be flying outthere and staying bored because
they got scared that theyweren't going to actually get a
job. So they took the firstthing that you know, match their
(09:45):
salary requirements, whateverthey had not taken the time to
say, you know, I really likedriving a nice car and having a
corner office. So that'simportant to me. I want to make
sure that I get to my next job.
I do want to be home with mykids everyday though, so I'm not
going to consider a job whereyou know, so I I think comedy,
people who are looking, theydon't have to be executives to
go to work for a company need tosit down and say I want to work
remotely, at least three days aweek, I want to work in an
(10:08):
environment where I can work onmy own time at eight o'clock in
the evening, if I want, I don'thave to work, you know, nine to
five, I want to boss the givesme a lot of freight, they need
to do that work up front. Andthen when they're interviewing,
they need to be, well, whenthey're doing their research on
companies, they need to see ifthat's if those things are
playing out. And then they needto have some good questions in
(10:29):
the interview to ask, tell meabout your style as a leader, do
you expect your employees to beworking from eight to five? Or
do you allow them to freedom,you know, to ask the questions
to get the answers that theywant to what's important to
them. And then as much as youcan talk to people who work
there, if you can't talk topeople that work there, or you
feel like that's a dauntingtask, at least look a bunch of
them up on LinkedIn and see whatthey're posting about sharing
(10:52):
about, you know, they'reprobably not going to be
complaining on LinkedIn, maybe Idon't know, some people do. But
you should be able to get a toneif you know, especially if
you're looking for a leadershipposition. If you Google all the
profiles of the leaders in theorganization, I think you can
learn a lot sometimes from whatthey're saying and what they're
not saying. And doing someresearch just in general ledger,
the company, obviously there'sgoing to be you know, interviews
(11:13):
with the CEO, etc out there. Andof course, they're going to be
talking their talking points.
But if you read enoughinformation and do enough
research, you should be able toget a good clip.
Chellie Phillips (11:23):
Accurate. Do you think diets like Glassdoor
and places like that are thatallow employees to leave
reviews?
Jennifer McClure (11:29):
I think they're, they're helpful in
aggregate, if you look at, youknow, I've had clients before,
one of my first clients is whenI started my own business
brought me in because he said,you know, we had high turnover,
and this is a great place towork. And it's wonderful, and we
pay good money. And you know, sohe went off with all these
things. Well, the reality was,it was almost a billion dollar
company, that was he ownedhimself, he started in his
(11:52):
garage, that was like, it is agreat place for you. You know,
you you have all the freedom inthe world, the autonomy, you
make all these things, etc. Butyou know, after I knew some
things about the company, and Ispent some time talking to
people there, it wasn't greatfurther on down the
organization. And one thing thatI shared with him by hit them
before I went in to meet withhim the first time was I looked
(12:14):
up their reviews on Glassdoor,and indeed work forums. And the
first thing he said to me was,those are just the disgruntled
employees. And I said, maybe,but if I see 300 reviews, and
you know, the majority of themmentioned, that you expect them
to be on call 24/7 that theyhave to have their cell phone on
at all times and be available toclient, you know, this is a
(12:35):
problem, you know, so even ifit's the disgruntled employees,
what's the totality of theresult? And more and more, I
don't think it's just thedisgruntled employees, it's
certainly going to skew that waythere aren't, you know, I don't
do it. I have a great experienceat a restaurant, I don't think I
need to write a Yelp review.
I'll tell my waitress thank youor my waiter, thank you. But I
don't go online and necessarilyshare it. I saw the do sign guy
on Instagram this week was likewho's reading your previous
(12:58):
people who are getting paid? Sothat's the opposite? You know,
they're getting paid to writepositive reviews, I guess. But I
think you could, again, it'slike looking on LinkedIn, and
doing some of that kind ofunderground research, you can
look at those forums and say,Are there things that are
consistent where people aresaying that they're paying below
average, or that in theinterview process, they were
asked questions that weren'tdiverse or inclusive, you know,
(13:20):
they often share theirexperience, were either working
at the company or not. So Ithink you have to look at it and
see, are there clues? It's not,you know, if you read 30 reviews
on Glassdoor for a company andone of them says something
negative, then either that'ssomething you can explore
further and try to find moreinformation about or you could
probably kind of discount thatas one person's opinion.
Chellie Phillips (13:42):
So let's flip the shoot to the other foot and
say that you're sitting in HR,you've done some exit exams, and
you're starting to see a trendthat these are shifting away
that you might not think is, youknow, the best for the
organization as an HRprofessional, how can you start
those conversations with yourupper leadership and upper
(14:02):
management and start moving themto think about maybe it's time
that we take a look at ourculture, and here are some some
key things that we might want tobe looking at, say you're
starting to have more and moreturnover? Or, you know, maybe
people are taking their earlyouts, you know, just different
things or you're having harderand harder time recruiting for
certain positions? How can youbegin those internal
conversations in a way that canbe very productive and proactive
(14:24):
and get the ball moving?
Jennifer McClure (14:26):
Sure. You got to figure out what data you can
collect to tell that story,rather than just anecdotes are
one off stories. If you'restarting to see a trend in
turnover, then dive deep into isthe turnover in one area, one
manager across the organization?
Hopefully you're doing exitinterviews, and you know, what
are people saying? What are thethemes that are coming up and
get enough data to be able tomake a case to your leaders that
there's something here that weneed to address and change? If
(14:48):
you just go in and say I'mhearing this, they're gonna say
that's just one person, youknow, so you really have to have
enough of a data set. If it'sstarting to concern you again,
what data can You gather to showthat it is more than just your
spidey sense. That's telling youthis is a problem, you know, an
example not culture related.
(15:08):
Obviously, when I joined my lastcompany as VP of HR, it was a
confidential cert, so I didn'tget to talk to the current HR
VP, but I talked to all theother executives, and every one
of them to a person, includingthe new CEO is like, you've got
to fix turnover. turnover ishorrible, you know, people are
leaving left and right. And so Icome into this organization
thinking I've got a real issuewith with turnover. And after
(15:30):
taking some time, they hadreally old systems. And so I had
to do like two weeks of, youknow, sleepless nights of diving
into their old mainframe systemto get turnover data, it was 107
year old organization. So I wentback as far as I could get it,
reasons for termination just inthe system. And what I came up
with the turnover rate for thewhole organization was 1.5%.
(15:51):
Excluding retirees and death,when you look at that, and
you're like, everybody's tellingme turnover is a problem. It is
so not a problem. But I need todig deeper. And when I dug
deeper, the turnover was insecond chip manufacturing. And
when you dig deeper into why arepeople in second chip
manufacturing, it's because wewere hiring, you know, really
young kids, because it was $7 anhour, then, you know, for not
(16:12):
much money, we're throwing theminto the worst shape possible.
And we had, it was makingplaying cards. So it's not
rocket science, we had seven oreight jobs where they would do
one task, taking sheets of cardsoff of the pallet and loading
them onto another pallet orloading sheets into the machine
or stacking boxes. And so wewould hire them, and they would
be the box stacker or the sheetloader. And they were bored out
(16:34):
of their minds, because they'redoing this one task all day.
They're not making much money.
And so by meeting with theoperations VP, we kind of sat
down and talked about, hey,we've got the seven jobs, they
all pay the same thing. Why nothave these people at least
rotate. So they get somevariety, they get the
opportunity to learn new tasks,new jobs. And he said, Well,
we've got employees that havebeen here 40 years doing those
one jobs, and they won't dothat, okay, fine. They don't
(16:56):
have to rotate. But the newhires coming in, they can
rotate, and it significantlyimpacted turnover, because that
was just one reason. The mean,there were there were other
things we needed to fix, can'tfix that they got to start on
second shift can't fix it,they're gonna make $7 an hour.
But by digging into why peoplewere leaving on that shift, we
were able to identify some ofthe things that we could change
(17:17):
to make their work and theirlives better.
Chellie Phillips (17:21):
So how important is it for an
organization to haveprofessional development plans
for their their team members andeverything as far as the work on
keeping them engaged and keepingthem growing and being aware of
you know, who maybe their risingstars are at this point in time,
and who we want to really engagefor future opportunities.
Jennifer McClure (17:41):
That's always been important, again, like
culture was becoming a reasonwhy people would choose or stay
at a company prior to thepandemic. And certainly now,
it's same as for careerdevelopment. But career
development in terms of theperception is different than
again, a lot of companies arestill thinking about career
development, career developmentfor companies is still we put
you in our high potentialprogram, and here's the classes
you will attend and thecertifications that you'll get.
(18:02):
And so you are in thisprofessional development
program. What people arethinking about in terms of
career development now is will Igrow, I don't need to come in
and as the marketing assistantand have you tell me how long
it's going to take me to be theVP of marketing, but I do want
to know what I'm going to learn.
And I do want to be able to havea plan for that. So that I can
say, I'm going to learn how todo market data analysis, I'm
(18:23):
going to learn how to doadvertising, I'm going to learn
how to do breathing, I'm goingto grow my skills. So it's more
about growth than if I take ajob or if I leave a job for
another job, it's becausethey've offered me an
opportunity to grow in some way.
So when you're hiring peopleinto your organization, and
certainly for your existingemployees that you want to
retain, you should be havingregular conversations with them
(18:44):
about where they want to grow.
You know, I while I'm advocatingfor people to do not exit
interviews, but retentioninterviews, especially with your
top talent, sit down with themand say, because I wasn't
executive recruiter, I know howthis works. If I can get you on
the phone, I can talk to you andget engaged in a conversation.
And I can say you can say, I cansay Charlie, you know, I've got
this great opportunity as a VPof whatever at this company,
(19:06):
you're like pinner. I'mcompletely happy where I am not
looking really. That's great. Ilove talking to people who are
happy keeps give me fiveminutes. Tell me what you really
like about your job and tell mewhat you like. And I say, okay,
that's amazing. But you know, ifI gave you a magic wand, and you
could change one thing, just onething, and it didn't matter how
much it cost, who had to do it,you've got a magic wand, you can
change it, what would that be?
You'd be like, Well, now, myboss is 45 and they don't look
(19:31):
to be going anywhere. And I'm,I'm in my 40s and so I don't
really see a path. Okay, nowI've got you because I know that
you really want to grow and youdon't see a growth path and your
company employer should be doingthat with their existing
employees. Not saying what youknow, give them a magic wand. If
you could change one thing, whatwould you do you know, what
would you like to be doing nextin your career, find out what
(19:53):
their aspirations are and findways to meet that and your
company so that when a recruitercalls they don't have anything
thing that they want to changewith that magic one. So it's
really about offering growthopportunities. And for
everybody, that's notnecessarily title change or
salary change. I mean, everybodylikes to make more money. But
it's really about I want tolearn more, I want to do more,
(20:14):
if you
Chellie Phillips (20:15):
can talk to a CEO sitting there, right now,
there's three things that youneed to really get the pulse of,
to be able to understand is theculture where you think it is
and what you need to do to makesure it's moving in the
direction that are staying inthe direction if you think it's
already there, or either of howI need to move it, what would be
the three pulse checks that youwould say that someone as a CEO,
(20:36):
or even the HR professionalreally needs to look at as they
begin diving into the culture ofthe organization?
Jennifer McClure (20:43):
That's a good question. Three things that I
would look at the kind ofunderstand if our cultures where
I think it is or where I want itto be. I'd probably want to know
what new hires are saying aboutus, you know, 3060 days after
they've they've joined, youknow, did it match to what we
offer match with what theiractual experience is? You know,
(21:05):
was there anything that theywere surprised shocked about?
Was there anything they weredelighted about? What's missing,
that they thought they weregoing to get that they they
didn't, that they haven'tgotten? So I kind of want that
new hire, I'd want to know,again, people that are leaving
the organization, why are theyleaving? And then it also wants
to know, from a recruitingperspective, are there people
that we're not able to recruitbecause there's something that
(21:27):
we don't offer or that theyfound out that they won't get in
their organization or that theygot cold feet about in the
interview process? So new hirespeople who are leaving people
who didn't join?
Chellie Phillips (21:38):
Well, all right. I think that does me,
Jennifer, I appreciate it. Andthank you for listening to the
culture secret podcast.
Jennifer's three pulse checks onwhere the culture is or isn't
currently in your organizationare great ways to start the
conversation. You can use thatinformation to change the
atmosphere of work and createpositive lasting change that
will propel your organization tosuccess in the future. If you
(21:59):
want more in the trenches.
Advice from Jennifer, you canread more in the international
best selling book culturesecrets is available on Amazon
or wherever you buy books. Ifyou've enjoyed what you heard,
please like subscribe and sharethe culture secret podcast feel
free to drop me a rating orleave a comment about topics
you'd like to see covered onfuture episodes. You can connect
(22:20):
with me on LinkedIn or Facebookor you can visit my website at
WWW dot Chellie phillips.comThat CAG L L I E P H I L L
ips.com. Remember, building avalue culture is your
competitive advantage and thebackbone of any successful
organization.
If workplace culture is your jam, you're in
the right place. Check out thisepisode of culture secrets, the
podcast dedicated to creatingworkplaces for both employees
and the companies thrive. Onthis episode of the culture
secrets podcast, I'm joined byJennifer McClure. She's the CEO
of unbridled talent and disruptHR. She is also a keynote
(00:28):
speaker who travels the globesharing her insights with 1000s.
and a high performance coach whohelps leaders to leverage their
influence, increase their impactand accelerate their results.
She is recognized as a globalinfluence or an expert on the
future of work, strategicleadership and innovative people
strategies. She has decades ofexperience working with everyone
from startups to Fortune 500organizations, her expertise
(00:51):
comes from her HR experience herwork as an executive recruiter,
and the lessons learned andshared as an executive coach.
Today, Jennifer is sharing aconversation with us centered
around talent and culture in theworkplace. I can't wait for you
to hear what she has to say.
Give me a little bit of yourbackground, Jennifer, like how
long have you been working inthe recruiting field and kind of
what are some of the things thatyou're seeing out there right
(01:13):
now?
Jennifer McClure (01:15):
Well, I said 18 and a half years and HR,
generalist roles, leadership andexecutive roles. So had
responsibility for recruitingand all of those positions from
everything from the janitor tothe CEO have some experience
there. And then I spent almostfour years or about four years
in executive search after that,working with a company to retain
(01:37):
search, bring in leaders intoorganizations of all types.
Since 2010, I've had my ownbusiness where and I am a
professional speaker, talk abouttopics related to people
strategies, which more and moreyou know, I'm not direct
recruiting anymore, it's been awhile. So I certainly talk more
about concepts, rather than thehow tos. In the beginning, I
talked a lot about now tos, butmore from the standpoint of you
(01:58):
know, what you need in order tobe successful in recruiting
talent to your organization,what is required from
leadership, etc. trends rightnow, everyone is hair on fire,
and, you know, stressed out tothe max, because for a lot of
reasons, you know, talent isscarce, people are changing
jobs, it's difficult not only torecruit talent for a lot of
reasons, but then if you canfind someone that has the skills
(02:21):
that you want there, they want alot, a lot more money than they
did in the past. And so thatthat causes internal equity
issues, if you end up having topay that in order to get talent.
And then of course, people havechanged their mindsets, in terms
of you know, it was happening,certainly before the pandemic,
they weren't thinking of 2030year careers, maybe they were
thinking of 1015 year careers.
But now they're thinking of yearand a half, two and a half
(02:44):
years, and then moving on towhat's next. So I think that's
causing a lot of leaders atcompanies to have to really
rethink a lot of things in termsof what they thought were
reasons why people would jointheir company before sometimes
it's a real wake up call thatwhat they thought was important
is not why they joined thecompany 20 years ago is not why
someone would join today andthat people, you know, Will Will
(03:04):
there be ebbs and flows, youknow, right now talents in the
driver's seat? Will it go backto employers being in the
driver's seat with a lot lesschoice and higher unemployment
at some point, certainly. But Istill think that the way people
are approaching work has changedforever, and will continue to
change. And so I see a lot ofemployers who are some are
sticking their head in the sandand saying, I hope it goes back
(03:26):
to quote, normal, some are like,I don't like this new way of
work. And I want everybody tothink like me, that's not
working. And then some aresaying we don't really
understand what we need to do inorder to kind of move into this
new phase of working, but yetthey're trying to learn. And
then of course, some companiesand organizations are doing
really well.
Chellie Phillips (03:45):
So one of the things that we're seeing more
and more is that culture issomething that people who are
looking to make a shift orlooking at new opportunities are
really paying attention to you.
Have you seen that as well withwhat you're doing?
Jennifer McClure (03:59):
Yeah, I think culture, if you looked at some
of the survey data, again, evenbefore 2020 culture was becoming
the number one reason why peoplewould consider joining an
organization or leaving anorganization. So that's just
continued. I think the challengethere is defining what culture
is, and what it means to whom,you know, what a company says is
our culture, you know, we valuehonesty and integrity, and blah,
(04:23):
blah, blah. And that's what's onthe plaque and the lobby and the
cards they give out toemployees. But then the culture
is what people actually reallyfeel and their experience with
work which if you have 10employees or 10,000 employees,
that ultimately means you've gota lot of different perspectives
on what the culture is. So Ithink the challenge is still
there to set kind of theoverarching values of a company
(04:43):
to understand you know, who weare and what we work, but then
also understand or how we workbut also understand that each
individual leader and their teamis going to have a mini culture
within the culture. So how doyou kind of make sure that those
are connected to what you want?
have to be
Chellie Phillips (05:01):
like that, that many cultures throughout
the organization and as so true,I mean, I've seen it in my own
corporate life as well, likedifferent departments function
so much better than othersbecause of the freedom of
information that thecommunication that they have the
the getting to know people on apersonal level, and that kind of
thing, as I've been doingresearch for this book. It's
funny for some people, when Italk to them about culture, and
(05:22):
I'm going to cut for lack of abetter word, I call them the
tech industry idea of whatculture is like with ping pong
tables, and the snacks and thebreak room, and then all this
other kind of stuff. And that'swhat makes culture but I think
that's the wrong way of lookingat it. And you use the word that
I really liked when you'retalking about the values that
the organization stands for andthe people. So in your opinion,
(05:43):
how can a company communicatethe value aspect of what they're
what they're bringing to thetable in a way that is that
connects with potential employeeemployees are even the current
employees that they have thatthey want to make sure that they
keep and maintain instead ofhave to re hire for positions,
because someone has decidedthat, oh, this is maybe not the
(06:04):
best fit for me anymore?
Jennifer McClure (06:05):
Sure, well, I mean, values are something you
have to walk the talk, you cansay a lot of things. But if
you're not, if your leadersaren't actually living it out in
their organizations, if yourvalues are that we value work
life balance, and we want peopleto be whole people inside and
outside of work, but then youhave a leader who's sending
emails in the evening andcalling people on the weekends
and expecting people to be inthe office, five days a week
(06:29):
from eight, five, when they'rethere than that's not walk in
the values and people won't feelthat. So I think with anything,
if you say your values aroundsustainability, it has to be
more than just a logo on yourwebsite, you have to have
leaders who are out in thecommunity demonstrating the
commitment to sustainability, Ithink you see a lot of that,
where people will talk aboutdiversity, and inclusion and
(06:50):
belonging as part of you know,being who they are, what they're
about. But then you look at thepicture of their leaders on the
website, and they're all whitemales, there's no involvement in
the community and diverseorganizations don't have anyone
in leadership positions thatare, you know, diverse
employees, or they have one andthat person is brought to every
interview, you know, so thereare ways that values are not
really lived out. And I thinkpeople see that and they're much
(07:13):
more attuned to it now,especially diversity, equity
inclusion is a good one that alot of companies will say it's
part of their culture or theirvalues, but they haven't take
the time to really think about,well, how are we living that
out?
Chellie Phillips (07:25):
How important do you think it is, for an
organization for the culture,just discussion, not to just
start at the upper level, butthat it includes multi levels
from inside that organization?
Jennifer McClure (07:39):
Well, I mean, the culture is the whole
organization. So again, ifyou're just at the top levels,
talking about what what cultureis, and you're just creating a
statement to put on a piecepage, it's not the lived
culture, a definition of culturehas always been the employees
experience of working for thecompany, and what they what
they're telling other peopletheir experiences. So that's all
(07:59):
employees. So any company thatthinks they're going to go away
on a retreat and do theirmission, vision values, and
establish their culture ismissing the boat with their
leadership team, because that'snot ever going to be what the
culture is, or will be.
Chellie Phillips (08:12):
So if someone is looking right now for maybe
the next opportunity for them,what is the piece of advice that
you would give them as far ashow to evaluate a culture inside
an organization because we knowboth sides are on their on their
best game, when you come to theinterview, everybody's talking
the game, everybody's showingup? You know, they got their
best outfits on and ready to go.
So how can a potential employeedive a little deeper and make
(08:36):
sure they're getting an accuratepicture of something before they
sign on?
Jennifer McClure (08:41):
Why do you think first they have to do the
work of figuring out what isimportant to them? You know,
when I worked in executivesearch, I'd meet with a lot of
executives who were intransition, I gave away 10% of
my time to help executives intransition. And so I'd start
with, you know, what are youlooking for what's important to
you? And I can't tell you howmany times I wish I'd written a
book, then, you know, I'd bemeeting with like a 45 year old
(09:02):
senior sales VP, who, you know,has either been let go laid off
or you know, downsized orwhatever. And so you're talking,
I'm talking to him, and I'mlike, so what do you want your
next job. And he's like, youknow, I traveled all the time.
In my last job, I commuted towork in San Francisco from
Cincinnati, and I missed my kidsgrowing up. And so I'm at a
stage in life where I reallywant to be home for my kids, I
(09:22):
don't want to travel anymore,maybe one day a week. Okay, so
to hear all this from them, andthen like couple months later, I
get an email from home or acall, maybe like I took a job.
I'm like, great when you take ajob. Well, the company's in San
Francisco and I'll be flying outthere and staying bored because
they got scared that theyweren't going to actually get a
job. So they took the firstthing that you know, match their
(09:45):
salary requirements, whateverthey had not taken the time to
say, you know, I really likedriving a nice car and having a
corner office. So that'simportant to me. I want to make
sure that I get to my next job.
I do want to be home with mykids everyday though, so I'm not
going to consider a job whereyou know, so I I think comedy,
people who are looking, theydon't have to be executives to
go to work for a company need tosit down and say I want to work
remotely, at least three days aweek, I want to work in an
(10:08):
environment where I can work onmy own time at eight o'clock in
the evening, if I want, I don'thave to work, you know, nine to
five, I want to boss the givesme a lot of freight, they need
to do that work up front. Andthen when they're interviewing,
they need to be, well, whenthey're doing their research on
companies, they need to see ifthat's if those things are
playing out. And then they needto have some good questions in
(10:29):
the interview to ask, tell meabout your style as a leader, do
you expect your employees to beworking from eight to five? Or
do you allow them to freedom,you know, to ask the questions
to get the answers that theywant to what's important to
them. And then as much as youcan talk to people who work
there, if you can't talk topeople that work there, or you
feel like that's a dauntingtask, at least look a bunch of
them up on LinkedIn and see whatthey're posting about sharing
(10:52):
about, you know, they'reprobably not going to be
complaining on LinkedIn, maybe Idon't know, some people do. But
you should be able to get a toneif you know, especially if
you're looking for a leadershipposition. If you Google all the
profiles of the leaders in theorganization, I think you can
learn a lot sometimes from whatthey're saying and what they're
not saying. And doing someresearch just in general ledger,
the company, obviously there'sgoing to be you know, interviews
(11:13):
with the CEO, etc out there. Andof course, they're going to be
talking their talking points.
But if you read enoughinformation and do enough
research, you should be able toget a good clip.
Chellie Phillips (11:23):
Accurate. Do you think diets like Glassdoor
and places like that are thatallow employees to leave
reviews?
Jennifer McClure (11:29):
I think they're, they're helpful in
aggregate, if you look at, youknow, I've had clients before,
one of my first clients is whenI started my own business
brought me in because he said,you know, we had high turnover,
and this is a great place towork. And it's wonderful, and we
pay good money. And you know, sohe went off with all these
things. Well, the reality was,it was almost a billion dollar
company, that was he ownedhimself, he started in his
(11:52):
garage, that was like, it is agreat place for you. You know,
you you have all the freedom inthe world, the autonomy, you
make all these things, etc. Butyou know, after I knew some
things about the company, and Ispent some time talking to
people there, it wasn't greatfurther on down the
organization. And one thing thatI shared with him by hit them
before I went in to meet withhim the first time was I looked
(12:14):
up their reviews on Glassdoor,and indeed work forums. And the
first thing he said to me was,those are just the disgruntled
employees. And I said, maybe,but if I see 300 reviews, and
you know, the majority of themmentioned, that you expect them
to be on call 24/7 that theyhave to have their cell phone on
at all times and be available toclient, you know, this is a
(12:35):
problem, you know, so even ifit's the disgruntled employees,
what's the totality of theresult? And more and more, I
don't think it's just thedisgruntled employees, it's
certainly going to skew that waythere aren't, you know, I don't
do it. I have a great experienceat a restaurant, I don't think I
need to write a Yelp review.
I'll tell my waitress thank youor my waiter, thank you. But I
don't go online and necessarilyshare it. I saw the do sign guy
on Instagram this week was likewho's reading your previous
(12:58):
people who are getting paid? Sothat's the opposite? You know,
they're getting paid to writepositive reviews, I guess. But I
think you could, again, it'slike looking on LinkedIn, and
doing some of that kind ofunderground research, you can
look at those forums and say,Are there things that are
consistent where people aresaying that they're paying below
average, or that in theinterview process, they were
asked questions that weren'tdiverse or inclusive, you know,
(13:20):
they often share theirexperience, were either working
at the company or not. So Ithink you have to look at it and
see, are there clues? It's not,you know, if you read 30 reviews
on Glassdoor for a company andone of them says something
negative, then either that'ssomething you can explore
further and try to find moreinformation about or you could
probably kind of discount thatas one person's opinion.
Chellie Phillips (13:42):
So let's flip the shoot to the other foot and
say that you're sitting in HR,you've done some exit exams, and
you're starting to see a trendthat these are shifting away
that you might not think is, youknow, the best for the
organization as an HRprofessional, how can you start
those conversations with yourupper leadership and upper
(14:02):
management and start moving themto think about maybe it's time
that we take a look at ourculture, and here are some some
key things that we might want tobe looking at, say you're
starting to have more and moreturnover? Or, you know, maybe
people are taking their earlyouts, you know, just different
things or you're having harderand harder time recruiting for
certain positions? How can youbegin those internal
conversations in a way that canbe very productive and proactive
(14:24):
and get the ball moving?
Jennifer McClure (14:26):
Sure. You got to figure out what data you can
collect to tell that story,rather than just anecdotes are
one off stories. If you'restarting to see a trend in
turnover, then dive deep into isthe turnover in one area, one
manager across the organization?
Hopefully you're doing exitinterviews, and you know, what
are people saying? What are thethemes that are coming up and
get enough data to be able tomake a case to your leaders that
there's something here that weneed to address and change? If
(14:48):
you just go in and say I'mhearing this, they're gonna say
that's just one person, youknow, so you really have to have
enough of a data set. If it'sstarting to concern you again,
what data can You gather to showthat it is more than just your
spidey sense. That's telling youthis is a problem, you know, an
example not culture related.
(15:08):
Obviously, when I joined my lastcompany as VP of HR, it was a
confidential cert, so I didn'tget to talk to the current HR
VP, but I talked to all theother executives, and every one
of them to a person, includingthe new CEO is like, you've got
to fix turnover. turnover ishorrible, you know, people are
leaving left and right. And so Icome into this organization
thinking I've got a real issuewith with turnover. And after
(15:30):
taking some time, they hadreally old systems. And so I had
to do like two weeks of, youknow, sleepless nights of diving
into their old mainframe systemto get turnover data, it was 107
year old organization. So I wentback as far as I could get it,
reasons for termination just inthe system. And what I came up
with the turnover rate for thewhole organization was 1.5%.
(15:51):
Excluding retirees and death,when you look at that, and
you're like, everybody's tellingme turnover is a problem. It is
so not a problem. But I need todig deeper. And when I dug
deeper, the turnover was insecond chip manufacturing. And
when you dig deeper into why arepeople in second chip
manufacturing, it's because wewere hiring, you know, really
young kids, because it was $7 anhour, then, you know, for not
(16:12):
much money, we're throwing theminto the worst shape possible.
And we had, it was makingplaying cards. So it's not
rocket science, we had seven oreight jobs where they would do
one task, taking sheets of cardsoff of the pallet and loading
them onto another pallet orloading sheets into the machine
or stacking boxes. And so wewould hire them, and they would
be the box stacker or the sheetloader. And they were bored out
(16:34):
of their minds, because they'redoing this one task all day.
They're not making much money.
And so by meeting with theoperations VP, we kind of sat
down and talked about, hey,we've got the seven jobs, they
all pay the same thing. Why nothave these people at least
rotate. So they get somevariety, they get the
opportunity to learn new tasks,new jobs. And he said, Well,
we've got employees that havebeen here 40 years doing those
one jobs, and they won't dothat, okay, fine. They don't
(16:56):
have to rotate. But the newhires coming in, they can
rotate, and it significantlyimpacted turnover, because that
was just one reason. The mean,there were there were other
things we needed to fix, can'tfix that they got to start on
second shift can't fix it,they're gonna make $7 an hour.
But by digging into why peoplewere leaving on that shift, we
were able to identify some ofthe things that we could change
(17:17):
to make their work and theirlives better.
Chellie Phillips (17:21):
So how important is it for an
organization to haveprofessional development plans
for their their team members andeverything as far as the work on
keeping them engaged and keepingthem growing and being aware of
you know, who maybe their risingstars are at this point in time,
and who we want to really engagefor future opportunities.
Jennifer McClure (17:41):
That's always been important, again, like
culture was becoming a reasonwhy people would choose or stay
at a company prior to thepandemic. And certainly now,
it's same as for careerdevelopment. But career
development in terms of theperception is different than
again, a lot of companies arestill thinking about career
development, career developmentfor companies is still we put
you in our high potentialprogram, and here's the classes
you will attend and thecertifications that you'll get.
(18:02):
And so you are in thisprofessional development
program. What people arethinking about in terms of
career development now is will Igrow, I don't need to come in
and as the marketing assistantand have you tell me how long
it's going to take me to be theVP of marketing, but I do want
to know what I'm going to learn.
And I do want to be able to havea plan for that. So that I can
say, I'm going to learn how todo market data analysis, I'm
(18:23):
going to learn how to doadvertising, I'm going to learn
how to do breathing, I'm goingto grow my skills. So it's more
about growth than if I take ajob or if I leave a job for
another job, it's becausethey've offered me an
opportunity to grow in some way.
So when you're hiring peopleinto your organization, and
certainly for your existingemployees that you want to
retain, you should be havingregular conversations with them
(18:44):
about where they want to grow.
You know, I while I'm advocatingfor people to do not exit
interviews, but retentioninterviews, especially with your
top talent, sit down with themand say, because I wasn't
executive recruiter, I know howthis works. If I can get you on
the phone, I can talk to you andget engaged in a conversation.
And I can say you can say, I cansay Charlie, you know, I've got
this great opportunity as a VPof whatever at this company,
(19:06):
you're like pinner. I'mcompletely happy where I am not
looking really. That's great. Ilove talking to people who are
happy keeps give me fiveminutes. Tell me what you really
like about your job and tell mewhat you like. And I say, okay,
that's amazing. But you know, ifI gave you a magic wand, and you
could change one thing, just onething, and it didn't matter how
much it cost, who had to do it,you've got a magic wand, you can
change it, what would that be?
You'd be like, Well, now, myboss is 45 and they don't look
(19:31):
to be going anywhere. And I'm,I'm in my 40s and so I don't
really see a path. Okay, nowI've got you because I know that
you really want to grow and youdon't see a growth path and your
company employer should be doingthat with their existing
employees. Not saying what youknow, give them a magic wand. If
you could change one thing, whatwould you do you know, what
would you like to be doing nextin your career, find out what
(19:53):
their aspirations are and findways to meet that and your
company so that when a recruitercalls they don't have anything
thing that they want to changewith that magic one. So it's
really about offering growthopportunities. And for
everybody, that's notnecessarily title change or
salary change. I mean, everybodylikes to make more money. But
it's really about I want tolearn more, I want to do more,
(20:14):
if you
Chellie Phillips (20:15):
can talk to a CEO sitting there, right now,
there's three things that youneed to really get the pulse of,
to be able to understand is theculture where you think it is
and what you need to do to makesure it's moving in the
direction that are staying inthe direction if you think it's
already there, or either of howI need to move it, what would be
the three pulse checks that youwould say that someone as a CEO,
(20:36):
or even the HR professionalreally needs to look at as they
begin diving into the culture ofthe organization?
Jennifer McClure (20:43):
That's a good question. Three things that I
would look at the kind ofunderstand if our cultures where
I think it is or where I want itto be. I'd probably want to know
what new hires are saying aboutus, you know, 3060 days after
they've they've joined, youknow, did it match to what we
offer match with what theiractual experience is? You know,
(21:05):
was there anything that theywere surprised shocked about?
Was there anything they weredelighted about? What's missing,
that they thought they weregoing to get that they they
didn't, that they haven'tgotten? So I kind of want that
new hire, I'd want to know,again, people that are leaving
the organization, why are theyleaving? And then it also wants
to know, from a recruitingperspective, are there people
that we're not able to recruitbecause there's something that
(21:27):
we don't offer or that theyfound out that they won't get in
their organization or that theygot cold feet about in the
interview process? So new hirespeople who are leaving people
who didn't join?
Chellie Phillips (21:38):
Well, all right. I think that does me,
Jennifer, I appreciate it. Andthank you for listening to the
culture secret podcast.
Jennifer's three pulse checks onwhere the culture is or isn't
currently in your organizationare great ways to start the
conversation. You can use thatinformation to change the
atmosphere of work and createpositive lasting change that
will propel your organization tosuccess in the future. If you
(21:59):
want more in the trenches.
Advice from Jennifer, you canread more in the international
best selling book culturesecrets is available on Amazon
or wherever you buy books. Ifyou've enjoyed what you heard,
please like subscribe and sharethe culture secret podcast feel
free to drop me a rating orleave a comment about topics
you'd like to see covered onfuture episodes. You can connect
(22:20):
with me on LinkedIn or Facebookor you can visit my website at
WWW dot Chellie phillips.comThat CAG L L I E P H I L L
ips.com. Remember, building avalue culture is your
competitive advantage and thebackbone of any successful
organization.
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