March 27, 2023 • 27 mins
In this episode, I’m excited to introduce you to Daniel Lawrence. He and his business partner, Christian, created a tech company called Bots For That and are located in London, England.
When I began writing the Culture Secrets book, (join the waitlist for the book at https://www.cheIliephillips.com/waitlist) I wanted to showcase great cultures from a multitude of industries and business types as well as offer a global perspective on the workplace. When a friend offered to introduce me to Daniel, I jumped at the chance, because not only did it open the doors to an insider look at the tech world, but it also gave me a look into how culture is different in a start-up operation and how the workplace differs in other countries.
Thanks for listening. Grab the book the podcast is based on at https://mybook.to/culturesecrets . Check out my website www.chelliephillips.com for more great content. Follow me on LinkedIn.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Chellie Phillips (00:06):
If workplace culture is your jam, you're in
the right place. Check out thisepisode of culture secrets, the
podcast dedicated to creatingworkplaces for both employees
and the company's thrive.
Welcome to the culture secretspodcast. I'm your host Chellie
Phillips and this week, I'mexcited to introduce you to
Daniel Lawrence. He and hisbusiness partner Christian
(00:27):
created a tech company calledbots for that and they're
located in London, England, Imet Daniel thanks to a long term
friend Robert toe. We've knowneach other since high school.
And just like I tell my clientswho are considering career
changes, your network is one ofyour most valuable tools.
Without that intro, I wouldn'thave had a chance to learn about
Daniel and what they arebuilding. When I began writing
the culture secrets book, Iwanted to showcase great
(00:50):
cultures from a multitude ofindustries and business types as
well as offer a globalperspective on the workplace.
When Robert offered to introduceme to Daniel, I jumped at the
chance because not only did itopen the doors to to an
insider's look at the techworld, but it also gave me a
look into how culture isdifferent in a startup operation
and how the workplace differs inother countries. So without any
further delay, let's dive intothe conversation with Daniel,
(01:12):
tell me a little bit about yourbusiness how you got started,
what it is,
Daniel Lawrence (01:18):
we had sort of toxic culture, Robert will
already tell you the same, weboth experienced some incredibly
toxic culture. Over our yearstogether, we've been Brothers in
Arms trying to fight from withinthe systems in many, many
different companies fromclients. And employers who we
both worked with, we've bothseen very extreme and toxic
people, our souls are one of thebetter word we've come across
(01:41):
enough of them in our time. Sowhat we used to do was, I guess,
we used to help companies becomemore productive, more efficient,
operate more optimally, and weused to help them transform and
change and improve theirprocesses and how they work. And
one of the things we've neverreally tackled as part of what
we're used to do with thetechnology, because what most
(02:03):
companies have so many diverse,sort of unconnected in a
patchwork of systems that we cannever really fix anything. And
so when something called roboticprocess automation came up, it's
something that myself andChristian, who Robert also
knows, is something that westarted to look at, because we
thought this could be a bit of agame changer because it means
you don't have to change any ofyour actual technology systems,
(02:25):
you can automate them withouthaving to integrate without
having to change them all at thesurface level. And therefore you
can eliminate loads and loads ofmanual work that we were
basically shutting off andredesigning and putting it on
lifting and shifting it in lowcost locations, which was great,
and it delivered huge returns.
But it was a hell of a pain inthe ass to do you know, and it
took you know, it took two yearsor more to do it properly in any
(02:47):
sort of reasonable sizedcompany. So this thing called
bots came along, and myself aChristian look to them thought
actually, there's something inthat we jumped on early, we're
an early adopter of it. And wewe joined our forces are two
companies together. And westarted looking seriously at
bots and how that would work.
And really, since we got up andrunning around 2017 properly,
(03:09):
and then lockdown happened, theglobal pandemic hit us. And we
started getting really busysuddenly, then because
everyone's way of workingsuddenly changed through force.
So people couldn't go tocolleges, for their classes,
they had to dial in on a zoomcall, and no one systems were
set up to handle things in lifeand work in that way. So we
(03:32):
started to get very busy, wegrew quite a lot through
lockdown. And it was a in someways it's it's there's a
springboard for us to accelerateour growth and what we were
doing and to evolve our ownbusiness strategy. And so we did
So ever since then, we've beencontinuing to grow and bootstrap
our business. And we've we've,we've grown, we've hired people,
(03:52):
we've lost people we've hiredagain, and we've lost him again.
And we keep going back andforth. And I think culture has
played a very big part of that,because people think what they
want to do is join a startup.
But the realities of that arefar different from what people
look for in in their employment.
They know the psychologicalcomfort that people see in a
(04:14):
regular salary, annual increasesin pay, regular working times
structured, you can see fivelevels above you, all those
sorts of things where it'sfairly static, it's fairly
rigid. It's fairly comfortable.
I think it's think and peoplethink go great start a startup
sounds like a wonderful idea. Ican I can go broad I can get
lots of experience. But thereality is, it's a little bit
(04:34):
different. And I thinkculturally, that requires a
different mindset. And it'ssomething that we do from when
we when we advertise jobs. Oneof the things we talk we did the
four C's, so we do BDcompensation and also sort of
one of the four C's is culture.
So one of the first things thatwe speak to when we first meet a
(04:56):
candidate and for the firsttime, we don't talk about
competencies goes, we don't talkabout a compensation package, we
talk about culture, because wedon't want to have a misfit. And
that's the first thing we evertalk about with pitchers. So we
probably exclude 80% of ourcandidates on the first call.
And it's all because what wereally do is eliminate potential
(05:16):
candidates that aren't going tobe a good fit. We give them
examples. So for example, ourculture, our, I guess, our
culture, and our values arealmost synonymous, right, but we
put them together. Our acronymfor our value based system is
recipe. And the reason is, if itthere's a link for that, because
what we build now is botrecipes, which are pre built bot
(05:36):
activities that you can say,maybe there's a bot that takes
your information out of yourSalesforce system and put and
creates an invoice in youraccounting system, for example.
So we have these pre builtrecipes, bots, so we came up
with an acronym actually tied tothat as well, just to give us a
little bit of consistency, and abit of fun, really, so our value
is acronym is recipe, which isrespect, excellence, customer
(05:59):
integrity, performance, andexecution. So when we first
speak to a candidate we gothrough, this is what it is,
this is what we really valueabove all else. And here's a few
examples of the kind of personwho wouldn't fit. What do you
think so we give them examplesof the kind of person that
wouldn't fit our culture. And wejust have a very open and honest
(06:21):
exchange on that. And a lot oftime that people go, yep, you
know what I thought, This iswhat I wanted. But actually,
those two things there, that onethere and that one, then that's
really not me, and I'm not goingto fit, and most people would,
would actually excludethemselves at that point, which
is good, because it saves uswasting time, all the way down
the road. But the one or twothat get through are the ones
(06:42):
that are going all the way tothe end, generally speaking, and
they're the right ones. Andwe're right for them. And
they're right for us, and ittends to last longer. That way.
So that's, that's, I guess, howwe approach from the very, very
start. And the other thing I'mthe reason we we I guess we have
those guiding values is thatwhen you're a startup or one of
the one of the attributes, Isuppose of what we do is there
(07:04):
isn't a big, high tallstructure, a lot of our
communication has to behorizontal and quick, to be
effective. So if you're relyingon getting a decision from
someone above them, and abovethem, you're not going to work,
it's not going to fit, right. Sohorizontal, quick, rapid, fail
fast, move on Learn, get on withthe next one. So that's that's
kind of the the approach that wetake. And because of that, you
(07:25):
can't really police or policysize, everything that you do,
you've got to fall back onsomething. And it's that fabric,
that's our values, really, sothat, you know, if we know that
educate, execution is paramount,we've got to deliver, right. And
if we know that good enough,ain't good enough. If we have
those guiding principles, if youdon't know, you can always sort
(07:46):
of fall back on those guidingprinciples to make a decision as
to what to do. Because you know,I can't be everywhere, and I
shouldn't be. And it allowspeople, I guess it gives them a
framework to sort of worktowards, you know, and we all
make mistakes, but it gives yousomething better than nothing at
all, I think and that's, that'sprobably how we've structured
ourselves.
Chellie Phillips (08:03):
I love that.
So my book itself has is basedaround creating a value culture,
and value as my acronym. So V isvision a is accountability L is
leadership, you is theuniqueness of the people, and E
is the engagement that youcreate by growing this value
culture. You're the recipemodel. I love that, because I
think it falls under that, thatthat vision piece. So tell me a
(08:24):
little bit about how you yourpartner, when you were sitting
down starting this, what is thevisioning process like as, as
the leaders of this organizationis how do you get to okay, this
is going to be our culturemodel. How do you how do you
work through all the pieces andparts and come up? Okay, this is
what we're gonna go with?
Daniel Lawrence (08:44):
Yeah, that's an easy one to ask. So, what we
didn't do, although we were sortof management consultants, we
didn't take the typicalmanagement consulting approach
where you sort of write a book,and then you go off and see does
this work? What we did wasprobably spent the last couple
of years fumbling around makingmistakes, finding out what
worked and what didn't, becausecompanies are our clients also
(09:05):
have their own culture, that wecan't obviously bend to every
single one. So we we've learned,I guess, through the last few
years, what works for us were,what things lead to successful
outcome and which things don't.
And that all really came whenyou boil it down when we when we
looked back, and we thought,well, that's that's a good
client for these reasons. Andthis was a bad client for those
reasons. And we Dig Dug in alittle bit and understood why.
(09:26):
And we looked across theenvironment. And we looked at
finance, and we looked atcustomer look at all those
factors. We came back down tothose those simple things, those
very simple core values. Exactlyin a nutshell. So we did it in
reverse order. And now we'veembedded that in as our that's
sort of what we thought we weredoing anyway. Now it's just make
it tangible. So that everyoneknows it. And that's the hard
(09:49):
part is is everyone knowing itand holding each other
accountable. That's the hardpart because if we do something
that doesn't honor those We haveto call each other out on it.
And that's uncomfortable. Yeah,
Chellie Phillips (10:03):
I have, you know, I'm looking at you, we're
talking about the structure of astartup versus the structure,
maybe as a corporation that'sbeen in the business for a long
time where you have the levelsof hierarchy. And yours is more
horizontal based right now. Sohow does that accountability
look in there is like, how doyou instill that across is that,
okay, everybody is equallyaccountable for making sure that
(10:25):
we're all on the same page, andthat we're all living by these,
Daniel Lawrence (10:28):
it's very much that and if you look at our so
we have our annual strategy. Andthen we have a quarterly one.
And that quarterly one getsvery, very tangible, very, very
real, very practical, and theoutcome of that everybody has
some part of it, on deliveringit. So that if, if any one of us
miss, we all miss. So it is itis jointly accountable. And so
(10:50):
much as if two of us fail, well,guess what, we all failed, and
we all not getting anything,that's just the way it goes. So
if I don't get the deals in andget them signed, I failed, and
there's no money to go aroundfor extra bonuses. If we don't
finish projects on time, wedon't get the money, and there's
no bonuses. So all those things,they're all very collaborative,
and all joined up very closely.
So we all know that we've allgot to succeed and all for us
(11:13):
all to succeed. There's no Idid. Okay, chaps. So there's not
a lot, we either all fail or weall succeed in that way.
Chellie Phillips (11:26):
So one of the things one of those focuses on
the fact that culture doesn'thave to look the same across the
board for it to be a great fit,and that there are different
cultures and differentorganizations, and they can all
still succeed and all still getto the same part where both the
business and the employeethrives. So you talked a little
bit about the hiring process.
But one of the things that I'mI'm really seeing is that
(11:47):
companies that are reallysuccessful in this culture model
and in business itself is thatthey're working to retain the
great workers that they have. Sothey're not going someplace
else. And one of the things thatI've heard a lot, I talked to a
couple of recruiters andeverything and and one of the
things that they're seeingacross the board, is that doing
re interviews, like throughoutthe years, like, you know, what
(12:09):
is working for you? What's notworking for you? Are we meeting
the promises that we told youwhen we hired you? Is this what
you expected? What what Weren'tyou expecting? Are you seeing
any of that inside?
Daniel Lawrence (12:21):
Yeah, I don't think it probably doesn't feel
as formal or structured as that.
But yes, it does slightly outthat summer. We do I guess
throughout the year, I thinkit's probably harder. And this
is probably a generalobservation in terms of values.
COVID was a pain because itchanged so many things forever.
irreparably. Did everyone evergo back, right. So most people,
I don't know what it's like inthe US. But most people still
(12:43):
are not returning to the officeon max, maybe a day, maybe two
days a week, at most, some somea lot less than that. And I
think I think we've we'remissing out. I think we're
missing out a lot by notphysically interacting. I think
that's creating a biggerchallenge than we've ever had. I
think it's the same for anyone.
It's a professionally, it's achallenge. Without the social
(13:05):
interaction. It's those littlethings that little cooler
moments where you overhear acomment, you interject, that's
where the correction of culturehappens more naturally. And it's
very difficult. If you only talkto someone for 35 minutes, in a
40 hour week, you're missing outon so much. I think that's the
biggest challenge that we'vewe've got, we've got overcome
and we still haven't got aresult for that. I mean, that's
(13:27):
what we've that's one thingwe've got to work on. That's one
thing we need to improve on nextyear and how we address that. So
there's that there's internet,there's so many interactions
that I think we're missing outon that I think culture is going
to suffer values are going tosuffer. And it's going to make
the challenge harder, becausethey're they could end up
speaking more with a client thanthey could with their
colleagues, which the risk isthen they start seeing that and
(13:48):
culture as predominantly toours. And that could well be a
mistake could not be in the bestinterest. So
Chellie Phillips (13:55):
that's been a challenge for a lot of people
that I've talked to you now thatCOVID really changed the way
that the office functions andinteracts and even Gallup did a
study on the fact that you know,people are happier at work when
they have a friend at work andthat kind of thing. You know,
like it just, it makes the daybetter when you have somebody
who enjoy being around. And Ithink I think people are very
(14:15):
much like I think I think we'rerelational anyway that that we
thrive on being around peopleand having people in our lives
and so that is going to be abigger challenge going forward.
It's been interesting to see howsome are are tackling it. My
eight to five jobprofessionally. I'm in the
utility business. We've beenback well we've been back pretty
(14:36):
much from the beginning becauseof the essential service
function. I've everybody has tohave electricity at their house.
We did do a little bit from homewe did some hybrid stuff, but
pretty much when we got back wehad we all came back because you
just you just have to be heredepending on if they're storms
or anything like that. I haven'thad to deal that with a lot of
the other a lot of other peoplein my life. They're still on a
(14:56):
hybrid schedule. They might goin two days a week or you know
it They really don't have thoseinteractions anymore. And it's,
it's very quickly eroded theculture that they had prior to
that. And I think it's going tobe even harder to get it back.
You know, like, once you've hadit, and then you lost it, I
think it's harder to go back towhere you came from sometimes
Daniel Lawrence (15:16):
early. It's like when your kids leave home
or go to university and you comeout in the crowd, they've
changed this the same sort ofthing we do suddenly get
together with your work, isthere anything worse? They
weren't like that before?
Chellie Phillips (15:27):
I know, one of the things about creating a
great culture is trusting in theleadership that's putting this
out for you. And the fact thatthey they walk, walk the walk
that they're putting out therein front of people. So tell me a
little bit about how do youpersonally, as a leader in this
organization, emulate theculture that you want your
employees to
Daniel Lawrence (15:45):
have? That's awesome. Well, I suppose it's,
it's something that we dobecause we because we measure
ourselves quarterly, so quitetightly. We, we have a
particular policy meeting everyfortnight every two weeks, and
that is to review. Where are wewhat's going well, what's not
done? Well, what's changed,who's had some successes, who
(16:08):
has some failures, and we'requite, I guess it's a fairly,
I'm fairly open about everythingthat happens. I like to think
I'd take responsibility andaccountability for all of it. I
always say I'm the when Iwhenever I do a podcast, or he
always says what do you do?
They'll say, I'm the guy whotakes the credit for nothing and
the blame for everything. Sothat's how I like to think I
lead, I don't think it's alwaysthe case, because you know,
(16:31):
people are people, we all havecomplex beings, right. But but
that's how I like to think Iwould always take control of it.
And then I sort of by I guess,osmosis, you hope that that sets
the theme for everyone else dothe same. And I think largely it
does, and I don't, I don'treally see anyone in here, that
doesn't really take the sameapproach. You know, they they
(16:52):
all take responsibility, theyall take accountability for the
outcomes they takeresponsibility for, for getting
the sleeves rolled up andgetting stuck in because we're a
smaller company. And that's theonly way that we can succeed,
there is no one else who's goingto take care of that you've got
to do and sometimes that meansgetting your fingers in other
people's pies, and just gettingon with it, getting it done. So
I think that does happen. It'snot it's not something I guess I
(17:14):
questioned, but we haven't, wehaven't really called it anyone,
no one's called in it and is outon not really staying true to
our, to our belief
Chellie Phillips (17:24):
that you must be doing a good job of it, then.
Daniel Lawrence (17:28):
No one's ever told me.
Chellie Phillips (17:33):
I love it. So I guess I'll say too, is if
someone's starting a company, oreven if they're not starting a
company, if they already haveone, and they've been walking
around going, something's notquite right, we need to work on
some things. What are what aresome steps? Or what are some of
the thought process as a leaderthat you go through? As you're
(17:53):
preparing to maybe? Okay, I needto I need to address this
culture issue that we have, howcan you get ahead of it? What
What should you put yourthoughts into it? And maybe what
are some roadblocks that youmight encounter along the way?
Daniel Lawrence (18:05):
Yeah, I think the major roadblock is always
openness. Some people are afraidto be honest with themselves.
Some people are afraid to behonest with others. And I think
as long as there's not a toxicbehavior, I think generally
speaking, most people are fairlyhonest. But you've got to be
honest with yourself as well andput your hands up. So I think
that's really the major, theonly real major bullet robot to
(18:27):
be honest with you, becausenothing moves forward. Unless
there's honesty. So that'sprobably the number one thing, I
think, why I'm quite a logical,rational thinker. As much as I
like to be something different.
That's basically what I am. I'ma logical rational planner. So
what I always tend to do is,rationally look at a situation I
start to sub categorize it intosub, categorize and structure it
(18:50):
in a way that I can understandit, and then present it back to
others. And that because that'show I operate. So that's what we
did when we when I sat downthere, right? Well, let's look
at what's worked over the lastfew years, what's what's been
what's led to really pleasanthappy moments, what's led to
having clients that we loveworking with, and the ones that
we haven't, and why, andexamining, where we've succeeded
(19:12):
and where we failed. And that'sreally where I always start with
it. And then I tend to thenthings naturally bucket
themselves up into customer andfinance and numbers and culture
and and they tend to do in thatsort of naturally, I guess we're
gonna bring together intogroups. And from that, and then
we sort of instructed us how weended up with our recipe
(19:35):
structure because it was thosesimple factors that really to
step back from it. There. Thosethree things are all the same
thing. Those two are the same,those 10 are all the same type
of thing. And then you end upwith these six things really,
that underpin what makes ussuccessful. What makes us happy.
What makes us Expo
Chellie Phillips (19:52):
so you brought up finances, and one of the
things I'm hearing a lot is thatthere's not a line item on the
budget this As culture, butyeah, culture can impact
productivity, it can improveyour benefits through wellness,
it can impact hiring, firing,retraining, retention, all of
that kind of stuff. So culturecan have a major impact on the
(20:16):
actual bottom line of anorganization. So, you know, one
of the things that whenespecially Panasonic when I was
talking, there was talk aboutthe process of getting everybody
on board that when they firststarted talking with the board
and different things about someculture initiatives was that
they just cultures Fufu, like, Ican't wrap my head around what
what what do you what is thisculture thing that you're
talking about? Maybe you canaddress that a little bit is How
(20:38):
does culture play into thefinancial aspect of an
organization? And then how didyou begin to incorporate some of
those things in your processesand your other line items to be
able to do the things that keepthe people that you want to
keep?
Daniel Lawrence (20:52):
Yeah, on a practical level, it's really
critical for us because if Iwere when we're out, working
with clients, it's very easy toget sidetracked to get lost
going down rabbit warrens dataand detail and issues that we
shouldn't be there can consumeour time, but the whole project
out of sync. So all those thingshave a factor. So I think and
(21:15):
all of that affects you. And soyou've got things like
performance as one of our keyvalues in it. That's so at the
start, whenever we have aproject, we have a timeline
agree we have a cost degree, wehave a number of hours that
we're going to spend, they'reall part of our culture of
everyone's now aware. When westart a projects, we know that
we're going to be measuringourselves and and be held
accountable to it. So thosethose sorts of things that we've
(21:37):
we've taken them from just beinga value based in a culture on a
piece of paper, to embeddingthem into a lot of our
processes, frameworks. Supposethere's a lot of them we've
embedded in. And that's the samefor how we price, how we serve
How was spent on customerservices, we've got got a lot of
metrics that we've embedded intoour performance review as well,
(21:58):
that all link back to recipe. Soexcellence to be to be pleased
the customer to be hit thedeadlines, do we do the right
thing? Did we hit them out, allthose sorts of things are all
embedded in so then we've takena lot of it and embedded it
directly into what we do. Thatmakes it directly measurable. So
we know. But the other aspectsare probably harder. The one
(22:19):
thing I always remember, and Inever forget it because I was on
a course in Dublin, the day 911happened. And it was Stephen
Covey's Seven Habits of HighlyEffective People. And it's it's
stuff like sharpening the sword,it's things that to this day,
I've never forgotten when wealmost need to have a culture
(22:39):
balance sheet. And I wouldalmost use the Stephen Covey
sort of framework. Becausethere's a lot of stuff in there
that almost leads to having aBalance Sheet A debits and
credits side of the culturebased system, the value based
system, and I guess we taught itup indirectly or you know,
without thinking about it, butmaybe one of the it's one of
(23:00):
those things, it's almost likegoing to the balanced scorecard
and having an extra step onthere, which takes those more
qualitative value based aspectsand puts them on there too. And
measures ourselves because we doit, we do it without thinking
about it, but we haven't done itto the same extent, because it's
harder, I suppose. Right?
Chellie Phillips (23:18):
It's hard to measure, okay, responsibility,
or it's hard to measure honesty,you know, I mean, there's not a
number. Okay, you're okay,you're 80% Honest. Okay. Rarely
do that. So yeah, it's harder tomeasure. And it's been really
interesting hearing, you know,like, some of the some of the
companies that really toucheslike, even like their human
processes are the ones wherethey really have to get very
(23:42):
clear. And you know, a lot ofpeople have basically told me
that your culture initiativecan't be an HR initiative, it
has to be a total organizationinitiative. And a lot of times,
I think that's where culturegets shoved, it gets shoved in
HR, and it's like, oh, you needto have a company picnic, you
need to have this, it's, andthat's really not what culture
is at all.
Daniel Lawrence (24:01):
No, it's not actually. It's definitely not
that, in fact, it's all theother things that no one
remembers,
Chellie Phillips (24:06):
that's a great way to put it. It's all the
stuff that's going on in thebackground. And so they're not
going to show up to your companypicnic, if you're not doing
these other things. And
Daniel Lawrence (24:15):
and that's the thing, it will end up subverting
your your plan. That's that'sthe that's the thing with it,
isn't it? It's, it's almost oneof those hygiene factor, you
didn't notice it until it'sthere for till it's not there.
All the while else, it's allit's all finding and running
smoothly, until it's suddenlynot there. And that's when you
realize it and that's when itgets measured really, what it's
not when it's missing, or itsabsence.
Chellie Phillips (24:37):
Well, I promised I'd keep you 30
minutes, and then I wouldn't goany parting thoughts that you
have on culture and being ableto create one where both
businesses and employees thrive?
Daniel Lawrence (24:50):
I think that the most important thing, and
this is one of the things I didis I didn't just sit down and do
it by myself. I got everyone tosit down and we made these
observations together. So It wasa joint initiative so that
everyone came up with andcontributed to it. As opposed to
me sitting down writing it up asa typical management, it's often
the same, right? This is ourculture tomorrow. It was more a
(25:12):
case of everyone madeobservations on what they'd
learned and what was working andwhat wasn't and what they
wanted. And we, we avoid it fromthat. And I think that's
probably the most importantthing of always. Don't sell a
culture. Ask.
Chellie Phillips (25:25):
That's very good advice. be wonderful. All
right, well, I will let you go.
I appreciate it so much.
Hope you have a great rest ofyour day and rest of your week.
Thanks for listening to thisepisode of the culture secrets
podcast. I believe Danielsparting advice might be some of
the most important informationhe shared. Don't sell a culture.
Ask if you're interested inlearning more about building a
(25:47):
strong people centered culturein the workplace and hearing
more from Daniel and othercultural leaders like him join
the waitlist for my book culturesecrets. At Chellie phillips.com
backslash waitlist, you'll benotified when it's available at
your favorite bookseller listsscheduled to arrive on April
29 2023. If you have comments orquestions, please feel free to
reach out to me on LinkedIn,Facebook or Twitter. If you
(26:10):
liked what you heard, pleasesubscribe, drop me a rating and
share the link with a friend. Ilove the chance to come speak
early to discussion on cultureat your business organization.
If you're interested, pleasevisit my website at WWW dot
Chellie phillips.com That ch ell ie pH I ll ips.com. Remember
building a value culture is yourcompetitive advantage and the
(26:32):
backbone of any successfulorganization.
If workplace culture is your jam, you're in
the right place. Check out thisepisode of culture secrets, the
podcast dedicated to creatingworkplaces for both employees
and the company's thrive.
Welcome to the culture secretspodcast. I'm your host Chellie
Phillips and this week, I'mexcited to introduce you to
Daniel Lawrence. He and hisbusiness partner Christian
(00:27):
created a tech company calledbots for that and they're
located in London, England, Imet Daniel thanks to a long term
friend Robert toe. We've knowneach other since high school.
And just like I tell my clientswho are considering career
changes, your network is one ofyour most valuable tools.
Without that intro, I wouldn'thave had a chance to learn about
Daniel and what they arebuilding. When I began writing
the culture secrets book, Iwanted to showcase great
(00:50):
cultures from a multitude ofindustries and business types as
well as offer a globalperspective on the workplace.
When Robert offered to introduceme to Daniel, I jumped at the
chance because not only did itopen the doors to to an
insider's look at the techworld, but it also gave me a
look into how culture isdifferent in a startup operation
and how the workplace differs inother countries. So without any
further delay, let's dive intothe conversation with Daniel,
(01:12):
tell me a little bit about yourbusiness how you got started,
what it is,
Daniel Lawrence (01:18):
we had sort of toxic culture, Robert will
already tell you the same, weboth experienced some incredibly
toxic culture. Over our yearstogether, we've been Brothers in
Arms trying to fight from withinthe systems in many, many
different companies fromclients. And employers who we
both worked with, we've bothseen very extreme and toxic
people, our souls are one of thebetter word we've come across
(01:41):
enough of them in our time. Sowhat we used to do was, I guess,
we used to help companies becomemore productive, more efficient,
operate more optimally, and weused to help them transform and
change and improve theirprocesses and how they work. And
one of the things we've neverreally tackled as part of what
we're used to do with thetechnology, because what most
(02:03):
companies have so many diverse,sort of unconnected in a
patchwork of systems that we cannever really fix anything. And
so when something called roboticprocess automation came up, it's
something that myself andChristian, who Robert also
knows, is something that westarted to look at, because we
thought this could be a bit of agame changer because it means
you don't have to change any ofyour actual technology systems,
(02:25):
you can automate them withouthaving to integrate without
having to change them all at thesurface level. And therefore you
can eliminate loads and loads ofmanual work that we were
basically shutting off andredesigning and putting it on
lifting and shifting it in lowcost locations, which was great,
and it delivered huge returns.
But it was a hell of a pain inthe ass to do you know, and it
took you know, it took two yearsor more to do it properly in any
(02:47):
sort of reasonable sizedcompany. So this thing called
bots came along, and myself aChristian look to them thought
actually, there's something inthat we jumped on early, we're
an early adopter of it. And wewe joined our forces are two
companies together. And westarted looking seriously at
bots and how that would work.
And really, since we got up andrunning around 2017 properly,
(03:09):
and then lockdown happened, theglobal pandemic hit us. And we
started getting really busysuddenly, then because
everyone's way of workingsuddenly changed through force.
So people couldn't go tocolleges, for their classes,
they had to dial in on a zoomcall, and no one systems were
set up to handle things in lifeand work in that way. So we
(03:32):
started to get very busy, wegrew quite a lot through
lockdown. And it was a in someways it's it's there's a
springboard for us to accelerateour growth and what we were
doing and to evolve our ownbusiness strategy. And so we did
So ever since then, we've beencontinuing to grow and bootstrap
our business. And we've we've,we've grown, we've hired people,
(03:52):
we've lost people we've hiredagain, and we've lost him again.
And we keep going back andforth. And I think culture has
played a very big part of that,because people think what they
want to do is join a startup.
But the realities of that arefar different from what people
look for in in their employment.
They know the psychologicalcomfort that people see in a
(04:14):
regular salary, annual increasesin pay, regular working times
structured, you can see fivelevels above you, all those
sorts of things where it'sfairly static, it's fairly
rigid. It's fairly comfortable.
I think it's think and peoplethink go great start a startup
sounds like a wonderful idea. Ican I can go broad I can get
lots of experience. But thereality is, it's a little bit
(04:34):
different. And I thinkculturally, that requires a
different mindset. And it'ssomething that we do from when
we when we advertise jobs. Oneof the things we talk we did the
four C's, so we do BDcompensation and also sort of
one of the four C's is culture.
So one of the first things thatwe speak to when we first meet a
(04:56):
candidate and for the firsttime, we don't talk about
competencies goes, we don't talkabout a compensation package, we
talk about culture, because wedon't want to have a misfit. And
that's the first thing we evertalk about with pitchers. So we
probably exclude 80% of ourcandidates on the first call.
And it's all because what wereally do is eliminate potential
(05:16):
candidates that aren't going tobe a good fit. We give them
examples. So for example, ourculture, our, I guess, our
culture, and our values arealmost synonymous, right, but we
put them together. Our acronymfor our value based system is
recipe. And the reason is, if itthere's a link for that, because
what we build now is botrecipes, which are pre built bot
(05:36):
activities that you can say,maybe there's a bot that takes
your information out of yourSalesforce system and put and
creates an invoice in youraccounting system, for example.
So we have these pre builtrecipes, bots, so we came up
with an acronym actually tied tothat as well, just to give us a
little bit of consistency, and abit of fun, really, so our value
is acronym is recipe, which isrespect, excellence, customer
(05:59):
integrity, performance, andexecution. So when we first
speak to a candidate we gothrough, this is what it is,
this is what we really valueabove all else. And here's a few
examples of the kind of personwho wouldn't fit. What do you
think so we give them examplesof the kind of person that
wouldn't fit our culture. And wejust have a very open and honest
(06:21):
exchange on that. And a lot oftime that people go, yep, you
know what I thought, This iswhat I wanted. But actually,
those two things there, that onethere and that one, then that's
really not me, and I'm not goingto fit, and most people would,
would actually excludethemselves at that point, which
is good, because it saves uswasting time, all the way down
the road. But the one or twothat get through are the ones
(06:42):
that are going all the way tothe end, generally speaking, and
they're the right ones. Andwe're right for them. And
they're right for us, and ittends to last longer. That way.
So that's, that's, I guess, howwe approach from the very, very
start. And the other thing I'mthe reason we we I guess we have
those guiding values is thatwhen you're a startup or one of
the one of the attributes, Isuppose of what we do is there
(07:04):
isn't a big, high tallstructure, a lot of our
communication has to behorizontal and quick, to be
effective. So if you're relyingon getting a decision from
someone above them, and abovethem, you're not going to work,
it's not going to fit, right. Sohorizontal, quick, rapid, fail
fast, move on Learn, get on withthe next one. So that's that's
kind of the the approach that wetake. And because of that, you
(07:25):
can't really police or policysize, everything that you do,
you've got to fall back onsomething. And it's that fabric,
that's our values, really, sothat, you know, if we know that
educate, execution is paramount,we've got to deliver, right. And
if we know that good enough,ain't good enough. If we have
those guiding principles, if youdon't know, you can always sort
(07:46):
of fall back on those guidingprinciples to make a decision as
to what to do. Because you know,I can't be everywhere, and I
shouldn't be. And it allowspeople, I guess it gives them a
framework to sort of worktowards, you know, and we all
make mistakes, but it gives yousomething better than nothing at
all, I think and that's, that'sprobably how we've structured
ourselves.
Chellie Phillips (08:03):
I love that.
So my book itself has is basedaround creating a value culture,
and value as my acronym. So V isvision a is accountability L is
leadership, you is theuniqueness of the people, and E
is the engagement that youcreate by growing this value
culture. You're the recipemodel. I love that, because I
think it falls under that, thatthat vision piece. So tell me a
(08:24):
little bit about how you yourpartner, when you were sitting
down starting this, what is thevisioning process like as, as
the leaders of this organizationis how do you get to okay, this
is going to be our culturemodel. How do you how do you
work through all the pieces andparts and come up? Okay, this is
what we're gonna go with?
Daniel Lawrence (08:44):
Yeah, that's an easy one to ask. So, what we
didn't do, although we were sortof management consultants, we
didn't take the typicalmanagement consulting approach
where you sort of write a book,and then you go off and see does
this work? What we did wasprobably spent the last couple
of years fumbling around makingmistakes, finding out what
worked and what didn't, becausecompanies are our clients also
(09:05):
have their own culture, that wecan't obviously bend to every
single one. So we we've learned,I guess, through the last few
years, what works for us were,what things lead to successful
outcome and which things don't.
And that all really came whenyou boil it down when we when we
looked back, and we thought,well, that's that's a good
client for these reasons. Andthis was a bad client for those
reasons. And we Dig Dug in alittle bit and understood why.
(09:26):
And we looked across theenvironment. And we looked at
finance, and we looked atcustomer look at all those
factors. We came back down tothose those simple things, those
very simple core values. Exactlyin a nutshell. So we did it in
reverse order. And now we'veembedded that in as our that's
sort of what we thought we weredoing anyway. Now it's just make
it tangible. So that everyoneknows it. And that's the hard
(09:49):
part is is everyone knowing itand holding each other
accountable. That's the hardpart because if we do something
that doesn't honor those We haveto call each other out on it.
And that's uncomfortable. Yeah,
Chellie Phillips (10:03):
I have, you know, I'm looking at you, we're
talking about the structure of astartup versus the structure,
maybe as a corporation that'sbeen in the business for a long
time where you have the levelsof hierarchy. And yours is more
horizontal based right now. Sohow does that accountability
look in there is like, how doyou instill that across is that,
okay, everybody is equallyaccountable for making sure that
(10:25):
we're all on the same page, andthat we're all living by these,
Daniel Lawrence (10:28):
it's very much that and if you look at our so
we have our annual strategy. Andthen we have a quarterly one.
And that quarterly one getsvery, very tangible, very, very
real, very practical, and theoutcome of that everybody has
some part of it, on deliveringit. So that if, if any one of us
miss, we all miss. So it is itis jointly accountable. And so
(10:50):
much as if two of us fail, well,guess what, we all failed, and
we all not getting anything,that's just the way it goes. So
if I don't get the deals in andget them signed, I failed, and
there's no money to go aroundfor extra bonuses. If we don't
finish projects on time, wedon't get the money, and there's
no bonuses. So all those things,they're all very collaborative,
and all joined up very closely.
So we all know that we've allgot to succeed and all for us
(11:13):
all to succeed. There's no Idid. Okay, chaps. So there's not
a lot, we either all fail or weall succeed in that way.
Chellie Phillips (11:26):
So one of the things one of those focuses on
the fact that culture doesn'thave to look the same across the
board for it to be a great fit,and that there are different
cultures and differentorganizations, and they can all
still succeed and all still getto the same part where both the
business and the employeethrives. So you talked a little
bit about the hiring process.
But one of the things that I'mI'm really seeing is that
(11:47):
companies that are reallysuccessful in this culture model
and in business itself is thatthey're working to retain the
great workers that they have. Sothey're not going someplace
else. And one of the things thatI've heard a lot, I talked to a
couple of recruiters andeverything and and one of the
things that they're seeingacross the board, is that doing
re interviews, like throughoutthe years, like, you know, what
(12:09):
is working for you? What's notworking for you? Are we meeting
the promises that we told youwhen we hired you? Is this what
you expected? What what Weren'tyou expecting? Are you seeing
any of that inside?
Daniel Lawrence (12:21):
Yeah, I don't think it probably doesn't feel
as formal or structured as that.
But yes, it does slightly outthat summer. We do I guess
throughout the year, I thinkit's probably harder. And this
is probably a generalobservation in terms of values.
COVID was a pain because itchanged so many things forever.
irreparably. Did everyone evergo back, right. So most people,
I don't know what it's like inthe US. But most people still
(12:43):
are not returning to the officeon max, maybe a day, maybe two
days a week, at most, some somea lot less than that. And I
think I think we've we'remissing out. I think we're
missing out a lot by notphysically interacting. I think
that's creating a biggerchallenge than we've ever had. I
think it's the same for anyone.
It's a professionally, it's achallenge. Without the social
(13:05):
interaction. It's those littlethings that little cooler
moments where you overhear acomment, you interject, that's
where the correction of culturehappens more naturally. And it's
very difficult. If you only talkto someone for 35 minutes, in a
40 hour week, you're missing outon so much. I think that's the
biggest challenge that we'vewe've got, we've got overcome
and we still haven't got aresult for that. I mean, that's
(13:27):
what we've that's one thingwe've got to work on. That's one
thing we need to improve on nextyear and how we address that. So
there's that there's internet,there's so many interactions
that I think we're missing outon that I think culture is going
to suffer values are going tosuffer. And it's going to make
the challenge harder, becausethey're they could end up
speaking more with a client thanthey could with their
colleagues, which the risk isthen they start seeing that and
(13:48):
culture as predominantly toours. And that could well be a
mistake could not be in the bestinterest. So
Chellie Phillips (13:55):
that's been a challenge for a lot of people
that I've talked to you now thatCOVID really changed the way
that the office functions andinteracts and even Gallup did a
study on the fact that you know,people are happier at work when
they have a friend at work andthat kind of thing. You know,
like it just, it makes the daybetter when you have somebody
who enjoy being around. And Ithink I think people are very
(14:15):
much like I think I think we'rerelational anyway that that we
thrive on being around peopleand having people in our lives
and so that is going to be abigger challenge going forward.
It's been interesting to see howsome are are tackling it. My
eight to five jobprofessionally. I'm in the
utility business. We've beenback well we've been back pretty
(14:36):
much from the beginning becauseof the essential service
function. I've everybody has tohave electricity at their house.
We did do a little bit from homewe did some hybrid stuff, but
pretty much when we got back wehad we all came back because you
just you just have to be heredepending on if they're storms
or anything like that. I haven'thad to deal that with a lot of
the other a lot of other peoplein my life. They're still on a
(14:56):
hybrid schedule. They might goin two days a week or you know
it They really don't have thoseinteractions anymore. And it's,
it's very quickly eroded theculture that they had prior to
that. And I think it's going tobe even harder to get it back.
You know, like, once you've hadit, and then you lost it, I
think it's harder to go back towhere you came from sometimes
Daniel Lawrence (15:16):
early. It's like when your kids leave home
or go to university and you comeout in the crowd, they've
changed this the same sort ofthing we do suddenly get
together with your work, isthere anything worse? They
weren't like that before?
Chellie Phillips (15:27):
I know, one of the things about creating a
great culture is trusting in theleadership that's putting this
out for you. And the fact thatthey they walk, walk the walk
that they're putting out therein front of people. So tell me a
little bit about how do youpersonally, as a leader in this
organization, emulate theculture that you want your
employees to
Daniel Lawrence (15:45):
have? That's awesome. Well, I suppose it's,
it's something that we dobecause we because we measure
ourselves quarterly, so quitetightly. We, we have a
particular policy meeting everyfortnight every two weeks, and
that is to review. Where are wewhat's going well, what's not
done? Well, what's changed,who's had some successes, who
(16:08):
has some failures, and we'requite, I guess it's a fairly,
I'm fairly open about everythingthat happens. I like to think
I'd take responsibility andaccountability for all of it. I
always say I'm the when Iwhenever I do a podcast, or he
always says what do you do?
They'll say, I'm the guy whotakes the credit for nothing and
the blame for everything. Sothat's how I like to think I
lead, I don't think it's alwaysthe case, because you know,
(16:31):
people are people, we all havecomplex beings, right. But but
that's how I like to think Iwould always take control of it.
And then I sort of by I guess,osmosis, you hope that that sets
the theme for everyone else dothe same. And I think largely it
does, and I don't, I don'treally see anyone in here, that
doesn't really take the sameapproach. You know, they they
(16:52):
all take responsibility, theyall take accountability for the
outcomes they takeresponsibility for, for getting
the sleeves rolled up andgetting stuck in because we're a
smaller company. And that's theonly way that we can succeed,
there is no one else who's goingto take care of that you've got
to do and sometimes that meansgetting your fingers in other
people's pies, and just gettingon with it, getting it done. So
I think that does happen. It'snot it's not something I guess I
(17:14):
questioned, but we haven't, wehaven't really called it anyone,
no one's called in it and is outon not really staying true to
our, to our belief
Chellie Phillips (17:24):
that you must be doing a good job of it, then.
Daniel Lawrence (17:28):
No one's ever told me.
Chellie Phillips (17:33):
I love it. So I guess I'll say too, is if
someone's starting a company, oreven if they're not starting a
company, if they already haveone, and they've been walking
around going, something's notquite right, we need to work on
some things. What are what aresome steps? Or what are some of
the thought process as a leaderthat you go through? As you're
(17:53):
preparing to maybe? Okay, I needto I need to address this
culture issue that we have, howcan you get ahead of it? What
What should you put yourthoughts into it? And maybe what
are some roadblocks that youmight encounter along the way?
Daniel Lawrence (18:05):
Yeah, I think the major roadblock is always
openness. Some people are afraidto be honest with themselves.
Some people are afraid to behonest with others. And I think
as long as there's not a toxicbehavior, I think generally
speaking, most people are fairlyhonest. But you've got to be
honest with yourself as well andput your hands up. So I think
that's really the major, theonly real major bullet robot to
(18:27):
be honest with you, becausenothing moves forward. Unless
there's honesty. So that'sprobably the number one thing, I
think, why I'm quite a logical,rational thinker. As much as I
like to be something different.
That's basically what I am. I'ma logical rational planner. So
what I always tend to do is,rationally look at a situation I
start to sub categorize it intosub, categorize and structure it
(18:50):
in a way that I can understandit, and then present it back to
others. And that because that'show I operate. So that's what we
did when we when I sat downthere, right? Well, let's look
at what's worked over the lastfew years, what's what's been
what's led to really pleasanthappy moments, what's led to
having clients that we loveworking with, and the ones that
we haven't, and why, andexamining, where we've succeeded
(19:12):
and where we failed. And that'sreally where I always start with
it. And then I tend to thenthings naturally bucket
themselves up into customer andfinance and numbers and culture
and and they tend to do in thatsort of naturally, I guess we're
gonna bring together intogroups. And from that, and then
we sort of instructed us how weended up with our recipe
(19:35):
structure because it was thosesimple factors that really to
step back from it. There. Thosethree things are all the same
thing. Those two are the same,those 10 are all the same type
of thing. And then you end upwith these six things really,
that underpin what makes ussuccessful. What makes us happy.
What makes us Expo
Chellie Phillips (19:52):
so you brought up finances, and one of the
things I'm hearing a lot is thatthere's not a line item on the
budget this As culture, butyeah, culture can impact
productivity, it can improveyour benefits through wellness,
it can impact hiring, firing,retraining, retention, all of
that kind of stuff. So culturecan have a major impact on the
(20:16):
actual bottom line of anorganization. So, you know, one
of the things that whenespecially Panasonic when I was
talking, there was talk aboutthe process of getting everybody
on board that when they firststarted talking with the board
and different things about someculture initiatives was that
they just cultures Fufu, like, Ican't wrap my head around what
what what do you what is thisculture thing that you're
talking about? Maybe you canaddress that a little bit is How
(20:38):
does culture play into thefinancial aspect of an
organization? And then how didyou begin to incorporate some of
those things in your processesand your other line items to be
able to do the things that keepthe people that you want to
keep?
Daniel Lawrence (20:52):
Yeah, on a practical level, it's really
critical for us because if Iwere when we're out, working
with clients, it's very easy toget sidetracked to get lost
going down rabbit warrens dataand detail and issues that we
shouldn't be there can consumeour time, but the whole project
out of sync. So all those thingshave a factor. So I think and
(21:15):
all of that affects you. And soyou've got things like
performance as one of our keyvalues in it. That's so at the
start, whenever we have aproject, we have a timeline
agree we have a cost degree, wehave a number of hours that
we're going to spend, they'reall part of our culture of
everyone's now aware. When westart a projects, we know that
we're going to be measuringourselves and and be held
accountable to it. So thosethose sorts of things that we've
(21:37):
we've taken them from just beinga value based in a culture on a
piece of paper, to embeddingthem into a lot of our
processes, frameworks. Supposethere's a lot of them we've
embedded in. And that's the samefor how we price, how we serve
How was spent on customerservices, we've got got a lot of
metrics that we've embedded intoour performance review as well,
(21:58):
that all link back to recipe. Soexcellence to be to be pleased
the customer to be hit thedeadlines, do we do the right
thing? Did we hit them out, allthose sorts of things are all
embedded in so then we've takena lot of it and embedded it
directly into what we do. Thatmakes it directly measurable. So
we know. But the other aspectsare probably harder. The one
(22:19):
thing I always remember, and Inever forget it because I was on
a course in Dublin, the day 911happened. And it was Stephen
Covey's Seven Habits of HighlyEffective People. And it's it's
stuff like sharpening the sword,it's things that to this day,
I've never forgotten when wealmost need to have a culture
(22:39):
balance sheet. And I wouldalmost use the Stephen Covey
sort of framework. Becausethere's a lot of stuff in there
that almost leads to having aBalance Sheet A debits and
credits side of the culturebased system, the value based
system, and I guess we taught itup indirectly or you know,
without thinking about it, butmaybe one of the it's one of
(23:00):
those things, it's almost likegoing to the balanced scorecard
and having an extra step onthere, which takes those more
qualitative value based aspectsand puts them on there too. And
measures ourselves because we doit, we do it without thinking
about it, but we haven't done itto the same extent, because it's
harder, I suppose. Right?
Chellie Phillips (23:18):
It's hard to measure, okay, responsibility,
or it's hard to measure honesty,you know, I mean, there's not a
number. Okay, you're okay,you're 80% Honest. Okay. Rarely
do that. So yeah, it's harder tomeasure. And it's been really
interesting hearing, you know,like, some of the some of the
companies that really toucheslike, even like their human
processes are the ones wherethey really have to get very
(23:42):
clear. And you know, a lot ofpeople have basically told me
that your culture initiativecan't be an HR initiative, it
has to be a total organizationinitiative. And a lot of times,
I think that's where culturegets shoved, it gets shoved in
HR, and it's like, oh, you needto have a company picnic, you
need to have this, it's, andthat's really not what culture
is at all.
Daniel Lawrence (24:01):
No, it's not actually. It's definitely not
that, in fact, it's all theother things that no one
remembers,
Chellie Phillips (24:06):
that's a great way to put it. It's all the
stuff that's going on in thebackground. And so they're not
going to show up to your companypicnic, if you're not doing
these other things. And
Daniel Lawrence (24:15):
and that's the thing, it will end up subverting
your your plan. That's that'sthe that's the thing with it,
isn't it? It's, it's almost oneof those hygiene factor, you
didn't notice it until it'sthere for till it's not there.
All the while else, it's allit's all finding and running
smoothly, until it's suddenlynot there. And that's when you
realize it and that's when itgets measured really, what it's
not when it's missing, or itsabsence.
Chellie Phillips (24:37):
Well, I promised I'd keep you 30
minutes, and then I wouldn't goany parting thoughts that you
have on culture and being ableto create one where both
businesses and employees thrive?
Daniel Lawrence (24:50):
I think that the most important thing, and
this is one of the things I didis I didn't just sit down and do
it by myself. I got everyone tosit down and we made these
observations together. So It wasa joint initiative so that
everyone came up with andcontributed to it. As opposed to
me sitting down writing it up asa typical management, it's often
the same, right? This is ourculture tomorrow. It was more a
(25:12):
case of everyone madeobservations on what they'd
learned and what was working andwhat wasn't and what they
wanted. And we, we avoid it fromthat. And I think that's
probably the most importantthing of always. Don't sell a
culture. Ask.
Chellie Phillips (25:25):
That's very good advice. be wonderful. All
right, well, I will let you go.
I appreciate it so much.
Hope you have a great rest ofyour day and rest of your week.
Thanks for listening to thisepisode of the culture secrets
podcast. I believe Danielsparting advice might be some of
the most important informationhe shared. Don't sell a culture.
Ask if you're interested inlearning more about building a
(25:47):
strong people centered culturein the workplace and hearing
more from Daniel and othercultural leaders like him join
the waitlist for my book culturesecrets. At Chellie phillips.com
backslash waitlist, you'll benotified when it's available at
your favorite bookseller listsscheduled to arrive on April
29 2023. If you have comments orquestions, please feel free to
reach out to me on LinkedIn,Facebook or Twitter. If you
(26:10):
liked what you heard, pleasesubscribe, drop me a rating and
share the link with a friend. Ilove the chance to come speak
early to discussion on cultureat your business organization.
If you're interested, pleasevisit my website at WWW dot
Chellie phillips.com That ch ell ie pH I ll ips.com. Remember
building a value culture is yourcompetitive advantage and the
(26:32):
backbone of any successfulorganization.
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