February 23, 2024 • 51 mins
The recent boom in erotic literature in the last few years has been exciting. More people are being open about their sexual interests thanks to authors paving the way for open conversation. In this episode award winning dark romance author Shae Coon gives us her insight on the process of creating kinky characters and the worlds the play in.
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Episode Transcript
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Casey (00:00):
All right.
(00:00):
Well, welcome back to anotherepisode of come with Casey.
as always, we are your hosts.
I'm Dr.
Casey Sanders.
And I'm Carrie Sanders.
And, we have a cookie ass
Kari (00:10):
episode today.
Well, we have a guest and guestepisodes are always my fucking
favorite.
Casey (00:15):
Yes, they are.
We know that we know thatanytime that we've had guests on
the conversations have been likesuper lighthearted and we've had
some really, really fantasticpeople to go through.
I mean, we've had, we've hadporn stars on, we've had PhDs
on.
So I feel like that just createsthis wide spectrum in the whole
realm of sex and sex positivityand educating the public on kink
(00:36):
friendly practices.
So there was, there was onething in particular that people
had reached out.
On to it's a request from us andbecause of this is such a sharp
rise in an erotic literaturethat we've seen and it may mean
it may be like a neat thing, butwe see this like it's everywhere
Kari (00:54):
it's fucking everywhere, but then, you know, you ask and
you shall receive.
So let's introduce our guestsand then say how you found her
to get short.
Yeah, no, get to the point to
Casey (01:06):
ramble.
You rambled.
Okay.
All right.
So today we are happy to welcomeromance author Shay Kuhn.
Shay, how are you doing today?
I'm good.
How are you guys?
Oh, it's been a good day so far.
It's been a great day.
We've been getting loose, youknow, getting stuff done.
Kari (01:21):
But, but the, the, the way in which we found her, I really
want you to say, because youcame home and you were so
excited.
And I'm like, What the fuck areyou talking about?
So go
Casey (01:32):
into that.
My excitement was driven by thefact that we had had so many
people reach out to us saying,Hey, you're all going to get
like an erotic author on.
And we had, we'd been likeputting it out there.
Like we need to find someonethat we can get on.
The universe heard
Kari (01:44):
you real hard.
So,
Casey (01:48):
so I'm taking our son to, to high school one day and we're
driving in the car and me andhim are having a conversation
and we pull up behind thisvehicle and in front of me, it's
just got this big, likeInstagram handle on it and the
Instagram handle was, it wasShay Kuhn author.
And then it said I think this islike dark romance on the, on the
back of it.
So this, like, it's staring mein the fucking face.
(02:11):
As the universe is, here you go.
It's like, here you go.
And so I immediately picked upmy phone and was like, we're
just going to try this out.
And I like popped up Instagram,found your page, clicked follow
and immediately sent a DM thatwas like, want to be on a show
about
Kari (02:25):
sex?
Casey (02:28):
So yeah, it was, it was an interesting way of getting in
contact with us.
It really was.
Shae (02:33):
Yeah, it's it's definitely making its money back, I guess.
Kari (02:38):
So, so go ahead and tell us a little bit about yourself.
Shae (02:41):
I'm a mother and a wife.
I obviously I've been writingsince I was little.
About 12 years old, but it's allbeen dark, but it's mostly been
like poetry or just dark storiesin general and then just life
got in the way, took a very longbreak.
And then about.
(03:02):
I'd say about 6 years ago, Istarted up writing another book,
but this time I took a differenttwist with it and had it be a
married couple rather than yourusual.
You know, instant love orwhatever like that, and it was
actually about a troubled couplethat were having troubles,
hardcore, almost on the brink ofdivorce.
And then they decided to bring alittle kink BDSM into their life
(03:25):
because she was desperate.
Or some kind of change to, youknow, she felt like she was the
man of the house and, you know,just having to take care of
kids, you know, be adisciplinarian.
And so they were having atroubled marriage and they
introduced this into theirlives, did what the process, you
know, the safe process.
And so I just wanted to have adifferent twist and it took me 4
(03:45):
years to finish it and I waslike, what the hell?
I'm just going to go ahead andpublish it.
Published it publisher came,liked it, so unpublished it,
republished it, then I pickedsome stuff up and then
republished it.
But yeah, my, my inspiration is,you know, Penelope Skye.
She's, she's the queen of darkromance.
And I just loved how thoseparticular genre or subgenre
(04:09):
gives you this Just highs andlows.
One time you, you want to throwyour phone because you're pissed
because he's being a dick, butthe next he's bowing at her
feet, you know, and so I, Iloved that roller coaster ride
of just hating absolutely hatingthe characters because they're
mean or.
Stick heads or something likethat to absolutely adoring'em
(04:31):
and falling in love and youknow, getting all worked up.
'cause they decided to be alittle mean in the bedroom, you
know?
Kari (04:37):
Yeah.
And so where did you get some ofthe, like BDSM inspiration for
this story?
Did you do like, do research,was it like personal experience?
Like where, like why did yourmind go to that being the
healing and the relationship inthat story?
Because it's
Shae (04:54):
a true story.
It's a true story between me andmy husband.
We many times we were on thebreak.
Divorce and it was because I wasraised to, you know.
Don't depend on anybody, youknow, don't especially man don't
man stuff like that.
And it was very toxic.
I found out because.
I wasn't maybe I wasn'tdepending on, but I wasn't
(05:15):
letting him do anything.
I was, I was the leader I wasthe man I was the everything and
it was freaking exhausting.
And, you know, he felt less thanwhat he actually was.
And so we just kind of discoverand I said, look, I've never
told a partner this, but.
I just want you to spank my asswhen I meet when I'm bad, you
(05:35):
know, yeah, because I mean, itjust centers you sometimes.
And so I, I was always into it.
He was a little shocked by it,but I was like, I just, you
know, if you're willing to go onthis journey with me, you know,
who knows what, what couldhappen.
And we took the classes andsafety courses.
I love that.
Yeah, everything like that.
And he just, he blossomed, he, Imean, it energized him, it made
(05:59):
him feel more empowered and beempowered, even being a
submissive, you know, of course,the submissive is typically the
real 1 in control because you'rethe 1 that has the power to say,
stop, you know.
And so, yes, it was, it's basedon a true story.
I mean, the stuff in the bookthat happens later down,
obviously that's for sure.
Addict effect and kidnapping,blah, blah, blah.
You know, but yeah, but it, it,for the majority of the book,
(06:20):
it's, it's a true story.
Casey (06:22):
See, that's, that's so interesting to me because you,
you've, it sounds like you, notonly on a personal note had that
dramatic change within yourlife, but then how did, how was
it being able to take that and.
Put it on paper to be like, allright, I'm putting this out
there for the world to see.
I mean, to me, that is, I'mgonna put it like this to me.
That's erotic within itself.
(06:44):
Unlike a personal being like,I'm putting some very intimate
things in here and I'm writingthings in and I'm putting this
out for the world to see.
And so they're getting a pieceof me that is not something that
everybody has gotten to see.
So what was, what was that likein that first, like initial
publication to be like, here itis.
Let's talk about it.
Shae (07:03):
Actually, it felt good because my family, we are not
shy about talking about sexexcept my dad, you know, my
dad's like, oh, my God.
But other than that, we're notshy about it.
And they've always known.
I've kind of had this, thiskinky side and stuff like that.
So they knew what the book wasgoing to be about.
And it meant.
You know, started to mimic thechange we were having, but they,
(07:26):
they haven't read it that far,but they're very proud and they
have the book.
But, yeah, it was just like, youknow, what the hell this is 1,
let me back up a little becauseof this.
At the same time, there was thisbig phenomenon going with this
certain franchise and I.
(07:47):
It was getting a bit worrisomebecause it wasn't the truth.
Yes, not
Kari (07:52):
at all.
Yeah,
Shae (07:53):
and now I am thankful to that franchise in a way because
As we get into the interviewmore of why I think an explosion
happened.
I think there's, it's not theexplosion people think, but
we'll get into that.
But I was like, you know what?
I'm trained.
Both of us are trained, I'mgoing to put in some scenarios,
actual scenes that have happenedand it felt good.
(08:15):
1, I was getting it out onpaper.
I was reliving that moment, eventhough I could go if I want to,
but I'm reliving that moment of.
Release of hallelujah, you know,and at the same time, it's like,
okay, this is the correct way ofdoing it.
Yeah, you know, don't you can'tdo this, you know, and, and, but
(08:37):
I did it in a way where itwasn't shaming anybody that, oh,
you're wrong.
And so it was just a wonderfulrelease to live it to help
others out to, you know, if youwant the real thing, this is the
real thing.
Yeah.
Kari (08:48):
So
Casey (08:48):
see, that's always interesting to me because we've
had a number of, of educatorsand, and people that have, that
have said that very same thing.
And of course we all know whichfranchise we're talking about,
but whenever people that areactual sex educators, actual
therapists that have done thework behind this, that come out
and be like, look, what you'reseeing is that's, that's not,
(09:11):
What this is, there's, there's,you know, violation of consent
going on, there's coercion goingon.
There's all these like negativeaspects that's being presented
in a way that
Kari (09:21):
it got like glammed up, which were like, it's a
beautiful thing, but.
Consent is, is the number one inall of, in all of this.
And that is something that thosefranchises happened to do was
remove consent.
And, and so as well as it was tolike bring up this beautiful
topic I'm glad that we haveauthors kind of going through
(09:42):
and, and someone that iseducated like yourself.
Going through and writing whatthese scenes can actually be and
what they should be And I thinkthat's actually what literature
has been been lacking, you know,yeah
Casey (09:56):
Especially in romance because I didn't grow up reading
any of this stuff as like afucking cis hetero male.
I was not This is not somethingthat was like, Hey, check this
out.
But I know that you had talkedabout being exposed to,
Kari (10:08):
Oh, I would steal my mom's books and they were all like,
you know, like vampires and youknow, which that was hot as
shit.
But I, I remember like in thesebooks and like reading them and
then my mom, like finding him inmy room and her being like, are.
Are you good?
Like, are you okay to read this?
And I was like, Mom, I've readlike all of them.
I'm totally fine.
But, but I, that was one of mycuriosities was like, I remember
(10:32):
it being a thing back in the dayand we all know the novel
covers, right?
With like the muscular man andlike the wind blowing, and like,
and the girl folding over hisarm, you know?
And, and like, I remember those,right?
It's
Casey (10:47):
like Zool and Ghostbusters.
Right.
That is such a cute
Kari (10:50):
thing to say.
But, but then there was almostlike the Silence and and maybe
those books were still being outthere and maybe I just wasn't
privy to it at the time andmaybe those was a different part
of my life, but I felt like itwas really popular and then it
like slow down and then now herewe are and just these are like
(11:11):
gained massive popular.
Yeah,
Casey (11:13):
I want the insider view on this because you being you
being the author that you are,I'm sure that you have something
to tell us about, like, kind ofwhat is what the landscape looks
like in terms of eroticliterature over the years.
Shae (11:25):
Well, I know it started out still even though the
franchise that started kind ofthis, and that's the thing is I
don't think it brought newpeople to the genre or this
phenomenon.
I think what it did is it justopened people up to say, oh,
okay, well, this kind of stuffis making waves.
(11:47):
Maybe I can be a little moreopen with my reading you know,
what I like to read and stufflike that.
Yes, don't get me wrong.
Ignorant people to get too far.
That's where the danger came in,but I think it did also just let
people feel a little morerelaxed with what they like to
read.
And then as more and more camein, and then us darker people
(12:07):
started coming out more andmore.
And so I don't really think itwasn't there.
It just was quiet something, youknow, background, you know, it
was something to be ashamed ofyour guilty pleasure.
And I think now it should, itjust exploded when people are
like, I don't feel guilty aboutthis anymore.
I, you know, this is, I'm openwith my, you know, my sexuality.
(12:31):
I'm okay with beast on human,you know, but, and I think
people realized and started toaccept, okay, guys, this isn't.
It's not porn.
It's it's a fantasy.
And when you stop trying to makeyour husband or your significant
(12:52):
other or your partner thatfantasy, I think people started
to understand.
Okay, this is just somethingit's it is literature.
I know some people stillconsider it, you know, porn or,
you know, just how I can dothat.
No, you can't.
No, you can't because it's avery sensitive subject because
there are tons of triggers that,you know, people aren't okay
(13:14):
with.
Oh, you're being punished.
So I'm going to whip you.
Yeah, I'm not okay with that.
So you have to be aware of that,but at the same time, you have
to write what.
What is in your mind?
Mm hmm.
And, but sometimes also you haveto write to market, which I hate
that phrase, but it's true.
If, if your market that you'refollowing, you know, is not, not
(13:38):
really into BDSM and stuff likethat, most likely you're going
to lose them, and that's fine.
That's fine.
You got to do what you got todo.
But like this, this whole newtaboo ban that they want to do.
Don't read it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, we most, if not all darkromance authors that I've come
across put a warning and we getvery specific, you know,
(14:00):
kidnapping slavery.
I actually work with a non nonhuman trafficking organization.
I volunteer and I'm on the frontlines.
So, when that stuff happens inmy books.
Those people are never going towin.
Yeah.
I actually tell the truth ofsome of the process.
(14:21):
Some of you can't telleverything that's violation, but
I go through that process and soI know, listen, you guys, you
need to understand there'skidnapping in here.
There's slavery in here.
There's.
You know, whipping in here,there's consensual, you know, or
what do they say?
What is it called?
Semi consensual or somethinglike that?
Force
Kari (14:38):
consensual, non consent.
There you
Shae (14:40):
go.
There you go.
I let them know because for somepeople that is very, very hot.
Yeah, yeah.
And for some people it's not andso.
You, you, you gotta be careful,but
Kari (14:54):
not everybody is.
Have you ever had an editor,like, come to you and tell you,
like, Mmm, you gotta take thatpart out, that might have been a
little too much?
Oh yeah.
You're like, oh
Shae (15:02):
yeah.
That's, that's why I don't haveeditors anymore.
Okay, fair.
That's why, that's why my book,my books, you'll see probably
little You know, mess ups hereand there because I just dropped
all my editors.
I opened them.
I started my own publishingcompany where it's just kind of
bare bones.
We do the best we can to editit.
But yes, I had one thatcompletely turned my book into a
manual.
(15:24):
The way they edited it wasawful.
Took my voice out completely.
And then the publisher I waswith, yeah.
Kari (15:35):
we hear you loud and clear.
Shae (15:37):
Got it.
Yeah, they, they definitely takeyour, your Your voice along with
everything else.
So, yes, I, I don't do editorsanymore.
Okay.
I'm, I'm, well, old enoughcognizant, cognizant enough and
experienced in marketing andwriting to, you know, all that
enough to know.
Don't do that.
Yeah.
You know, this isn't gonna work.
This is a, right now, the, theclimate is not in that, you
(16:02):
know, that, that's just notwhere we're going right now.
I know what my strengths are.
I am not a, you know, male, maleor same sex writer.
I'm, I'm just not strong onthat.
I'm not a fantasy writer.
Sure.
I am trying.
But I will do my research.
I'll talk to a fantasy writer,or I'll talk to a same sex
writer.
Mm-Hmm.
Because the last thing I wannado is insult anybody.
(16:24):
Sure.
Yeah, and especially with samesex that you have to be careful
with that, you know, so I'mgoing to respect those authors
and what they do.
Because I, I wrote 1 short storyand it was only because I love
the characters and I wanted togive them their own
Kari (16:38):
story.
No, I totally get that.
Like if I've never cooked fish,I'm not going to write book
about cooking fish, you know,like, and I get that and I
respect that.
So and because there are sometimes that I've like read books
and I'm like, do you know whatyou're talking about?
So I honestly, I find a lot of,I find a lot of respect in that.
And it does seem that you pull alot of from your books, from
(17:00):
personal experiences.
And I feel like that's whatmakes it more authentic and more
real and then more relatable,you know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Casey (17:08):
Yeah, there's, you know, it's, it's interesting that you
talk about like fantasy and allthat stuff because there is a,
will remain unnamed, but very,very popular romantic fantasy
series that's been floatingaround for the past like year or
two.
What's really, reallyinteresting to me is that.
I like to listen to what peoplethat are like fantasy authors or
(17:28):
critics say about these kind ofthings and a lot of times they
trash them so hard and I get itlike that's part of their job is
to is to critique it and allthat, but they like pick these
things apart and I'm readingthem going, Ooh.
Stuff that hadn't occurred to mebefore.
So I can imagine it can bedifficult, especially whenever
you have, like, you're buildingin the romanticism and trying to
(17:49):
appeal to certain audienceswhile maintaining true to, like,
your, your, your world you'recreating can be a super
difficult thing.
Yeah,
Shae (18:02):
I've been fortunate enough.
If you go on mine, there's not alot of reviews because I don't
send out arcs.
I don't send out beta readsbecause.
That is just going to kill mydrive because it doesn't matter
if you get 500 to 1000 goodreviews, there's going to be
somebody who wants to be adickhead and just, I'm going to
(18:23):
make sure I gave you a one starreview.
Oh, thanks.
Appreciate that.
Yeah, you know, and, and it'll,I think I got 1, oh, my gosh,
there's so much BDSM in thisbook.
It is classified as a BDSMerotic novel.
Casey (18:37):
That's the fucking point.
Shae (18:39):
Yeah, I'm like, and they're like, well, I thought it
was suspense.
Well, there is, but it's labeledBDSM to protect you.
So, you know, this is coming,but yeah, I, I, I just don't
even bother with the reviews.
I know it doesn't help when you,when you barely see any reviews
on a book, they're like, oh, itmust not be that good.
Well, it is what it is.
I'd rather have.
(19:00):
You wonder about it then see allthese people just being
completely ridiculous.
Yeah.
Nobody's not everybody's gonnalike my books, you know,
Kari (19:10):
it's I mean, you're saying, yeah, you're speaking to
2 people that are in the serviceindustry.
We get it.
And that has nothing even dowith our podcast.
Like, right.
You're a chiropractor.
I'm a hairdresser.
We are service people.
We understand reviews, right?
Like I'm a blonde specialist andwhen people come at me and
they'll be like, you made me tooblonde.
I'm like, are you kidding me?
(19:32):
It's in my title, you know?
So I, I can absolutely relate tothat.
I, I a hundred percentunderstand what what you're
talking about.
And, and I did kind of want toswitch gears just a little bit.
You, you had mentioned, youknow, being married, having
children.
This is something that's veryclose to me.
I, you know, I'm married, I havechildren and, and we run a sex
(19:54):
podcast.
So I want to ask you howcomfortable are you talking with
your kids about what it is thatyou do?
Shae (20:03):
I mean, it's.
I don't get into the down anddirties, but I mean, that they,
they're fine with it.
I mean, it's inspired mydaughter to write a fantasy
series, obviously
Kari (20:13):
leaving it at fantasy
Shae (20:16):
and she's asked to read some of my books because 1 of
the characters is based on herpersonality.
Very, very, Lizzie is based offmy daughter's personality.
And so, I mean, my.
I don't really ask much.
I'll tell them about scenes likeaction scenes or something like
that.
You know, I did honestly ask myson a question about.
(20:37):
Same sex, you know, male andmale same sex you know,
situation, obviously not thekink part, but I did because my
son is homosexual and he's, he'slike, well, you know, I don't
know about that, but I'm like,okay.
Okay.
But no, they're, they're fine.
And I told him, you know, guys,I'm not going to go with a pin
name.
I'm going to put it on the backof my car, you know, and they're
(20:58):
like.
Casey (21:00):
People are going to know what I do and you guys need to
know what I do.
Well,
Kari (21:03):
and that's what I'm curious about.
Like you've just, you've alwaysleft it being like an open
conversation.
You haven't like hit it fromthem.
Have you ever had a situationwhere like.
A friend of theirs was like, Oh,your mom does this, you know,
like, have you ever beenintroduced to that situation?
Shae (21:19):
No.
Actually my, some of my, he's16, so some of my son's friends
have actually asked to read someof my books and I'm like, it is
18 and older, you need to talkto your mom.
I'm, I'm not
Kari (21:31):
your parent.
Right?
I'll send it to you in twoyears, but
Shae (21:35):
I guess, I guess my son's snuck one to him and they're
reading it at school.
Like, he takes a picture of himreading it at school.
I'm like, Oh, gee,
Casey (21:46):
give me a fucking trouble, right?
Oh, well, we're currently in isalready on edge.
So
Kari (21:52):
yeah, seriously, where we're at.
Don't let them see that.
The
Shae (21:57):
good thing is, is all my covers are pretty discreet.
You know,
Kari (22:00):
it's not the naked woman falling in the arms, you know,
Shae (22:04):
exactly.
And so, no, we don't, it'spretty much, Oh, mom's going to
write her book.
It's like, it's nothing at
Kari (22:12):
all here.
And that's super relatable tous.
I mean, we, we're not like, Heykids, come look at our wall of
dildos.
They know that they exist, butwe're not like indulging within
that.
And they know our podcast room,like.
We got curtains up, it's shutevery day, it, you know, locked
when it has to be.
But I think it's important tohave discussions with your
(22:35):
children to let them know whoyou are and what you do and your
true self, I guess.
But I love finding other parentsthat have the ability to be just
as open.
And I honestly like, I applaudyou for that.
I think it's amazing what youdo.
You put your sticker on the backof your car.
Like people know what you do.
And I think that's amazing.
Shae (22:56):
Well, I would say, I, I think the first problem I ever,
first and only really is when Ifirst started this process, I,
of course, designed my owncovers.
And I was looking at pictures.
They were fully clothed, but,or, they had their shirts off,
you know, and I'm looking atpicture after picture.
What I'm seeing is art.
What I can use on my cover.
(23:17):
Of course, if a little, youknow, my little girl walks in
and she sees half naked guys.
And she's offended for herfather.
Mom, why are you looking atthose?
Daddy wasn't like that.
I said, baby, daddy knows.
You know, and, and to her, Irealized Wow, okay, this could
really make her think that, youknow, mommy's being bad, or why
is mommy looking at other men?
(23:37):
That's not right.
I have, you know, the calendarup with Wonder Act Heiress
models.
I mean, you can see Andrew inthe back.
I mean, I do have those.
So I had to sit down and explainto her.
No, I think your daddy is boy.
Sorry.
Your daddy's my man.
He, I would never I said, honey,I don't see and make a chest and
(23:58):
sexy.
I don't see that.
I see what will sell correct onmy book.
I am, you know, I said, this isnothing that I want.
I have what I want.
And so she finally started.
Realizing that, oh, okay.
Okay.
And and just seeing how I treather father that he is the 1 I
find sexy, but that was the 1sttime that I stepped back.
(24:18):
I was like, okay, wait a minute.
Yeah, you know, and I had tokind of get my own room and
stuff like that and lock it andnot lock it, but, you know, let
her know.
And if she comes in and I amlooking at.
You know, I.
Looking up a new toy orsomething like that to use in a
book or something, you know I'llshrink it and stuff like that,
but that was the one thing thatkind of broke my heart a little
(24:40):
bit but then Process of what itmeant and everything.
See, we
Casey (24:44):
had, we have similar things like that happened the
way that we love to do it isthat for us, it opens up a
conversation.
And this is for, for mespecifically, I won't speak for
Carrie on this, but whatever,you know, their kids are seeing
any of our stuff and they dohave that same mentality of
like, wait a minute, you know.
Why are you looking at this overhere, whatever it may be, our
(25:06):
response simply to that is like,you need to understand for these
kids, where are and I would not,they don't say this to them, but
where our arousal lies, likewhere our loyalties lie, what
we've decided.
And that allows us to open upconversations about relationship
structures, structures with themand be able to say like, look,
there's, there's like arousal isnot a.
(25:28):
A controllable thing or arousalis not something that you're
like, I choose to be aroused bythis person, this person alone.
And that's all there will everbe.
We don't have control of that.
It's a natural response.
It is the actions associatedwith that that actually makes
the person.
So that for me, I'm like, thatopens an opportunity to talk to
(25:48):
my kids and be like, what youneed to understand about
something that you might beseeing over here.
That does not change therelationship dynamic that me and
your mother have.
What it does do is allow us toexplore fantasies and allows us
to have open conversation thatnot nonjudgmental because our
effort is to try and do thingslike decreased divorce rates.
(26:08):
Our efforts are try to instructpeople about relationships and
the various structures and thevarious sexualities and the
various everything that existsin the world that people ignore
in favor of a box.
So I, I can get on, I can get onboard with that and I love the
fact that you've got like yourcharacters in the background
hanging up on
Shae (26:28):
the walls.
Well, he's, he's, that's,that's, he's, he has honestly
become like a brother.
Really?
Yeah.
At first it was like, Oh, he'sall over these covers and I'm
like, Oh, he's so handsome, youknow?
And then I got actually likemessaged him, Hey, I love your
work.
Just left it at that.
Never expected to hear from him.
He was blowing out my DM.
Oh, hey, how you doing?
(26:48):
And we became really goodfriends.
And I'm now when I read a bookand he's on the cover, I'm like.
Kari (26:57):
I'm like, I know him way too much for this.
It's
Shae (27:00):
like my brother, it's him doing it.
So I do, I have to picturesomebody else.
Same thing with Wunder.
Wunder is, he's 70 years old andabsolutely gorgeous, but he's
in, when he's in the books andhe's daddy, I'm like, yeah.
Casey (27:15):
No, you have to like separate the character, like, I
do,
Shae (27:22):
I like using the cover as my image for this person, you
know, especially when my brainjust ain't working and I can't.
And then I got to know moremodels and got to speak into
more models you know.
Rajati, you know, all this, I'mlike,
Kari (27:36):
I can't remember
Casey (27:40):
anything anymore.
Just pulling the veil back andbeing like, damn it.
Shae (27:45):
Exactly.
Because then you find out howsweet they are.
Kari (27:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, they wouldn't.
They're actually a person.
Shae (27:50):
Yeah.
They wouldn't spank theirgirlfriend, let alone whip them
with a
Kari (27:54):
belt.
Yeah.
Casey (27:57):
Well, so then that actually brings up a question
for me.
Do you have any.
Favorite erotic scenes thatyou've written that you're just
there in some of the like yourtop that you can be like if I
were To show someone that wantedto see some of my deepest stuff.
This is the thing I would showthem
Shae (28:14):
I would say it actually comes from a short story
Translucent It is about a BDSMclub where it's a spinoff of
another book and she's asubmissive.
Her ex comes back, realizesshe's at that club and he hides
who he is and they do actuallyelectro play.
Casey (28:36):
Yeah.
We've experienced
Kari (28:37):
that.
Yeah.
We've experienced that.
Shae (28:39):
But my favorite was when they did fire play, you know, he
did the alcohol and, and I likedthat because it is one of the
more extreme practices.
Yeah, so you have to be realcareful.
So I made sure, you know, I,because we haven't done it in a
while, but went back andwhenever my safety stuff, make
sure I didn't something that wasgoing to be.
(29:00):
You know, incorrect get somebodykilled stuff.
So that was 1 of my favorites,even though that book has barely
been read, because it is a shortstory.
That is that's 1 of my favoritebetween the electric play and
the fire play.
And I'm not big on, you know.
Blood play, but I do use itsometimes as a power, like,
(29:22):
she's showing that I accept youfor who you are kind of
situation.
But yeah, it's like that.
Like, he's, he's masked.
He won't show who she is.
Of course.
She's smart.
She knows who it is and that'swhy she just gives herself
fully.
And these are 2 things thatshe's been craving, but none of
her doms would do.
They would just not okay withit.
And he did it for her and hejust did it perfect.
(29:43):
And so I like those.
Those are my, those are myfavorite.
Yeah.
Kari (29:46):
Okay.
So are you writing anythingcurrently?
Shae (29:50):
I'm writing two.
I am writing my first fantasy.
It will be on a different namejust because it's usually good
to separate your fantasy withyour other ones.
Okay.
And then I'm writing Archer,which is about a female
assassin.
It's kind of like a John Wickmeets dark
Kari (30:05):
romance.
Okay.
Very
Shae (30:07):
cool.
I like that.
And I think it's one of thefirst, especially in dark
romance.
Bye.
Bye.
It's kind of more of a thriller,but anyways it's going to have a
descendant of the Sioux nation.
So he is Native American,beautiful Native American.
So that comes a little bit frommy, my heritage and so like
that.
So, yeah, we're going to bringthem two together and, but yeah,
(30:28):
it's, it's almost done, but.
I'm going slow on it because Iwant to make sure I get the, the
ethnic experiences and, youknow, tribal rituals and stuff
like that into it accurately.
And it's actually inspired by aa Cherokee fable.
Okay, yeah, so, and it kind ofhelped start the fantasy romance
(30:51):
that I'm writing.
Kari (30:52):
I love how much attention to detail seems to be important
to you.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Like, I'm really picking up onthat and I love that.
Shae (31:01):
Yeah, I, my stories aren't long compared to most, but the
most feedback I've gotten fromthe trusted people I do ask to
read my book is that my booksare short and sweet and they
don't understand how I'm able tofit so much detail and world
building in it when it's soshort.
(31:23):
I'm texting.
I'm like, let's
Kari (31:24):
just get to the point.
Yeah, dude, you're speaking mylanguage.
That's one of the reasons thatsometimes I struggle with
reading fantasy books becauseI'm like, you just described a
tree in 5 pages and I can't, Ican't.
Yes, that's Lord of the Rings.
Thank you for understanding myreference, but I just can't I
You are going I am to a typelike I got shit to do and so if
(31:48):
you're dragging out Unless it'slike a very hot sex scene if
you're dragging out
Casey (31:55):
You, that's the areas where you can, you can take the,
yes,
Kari (31:58):
you will have my undivided attention
Casey (32:00):
to have five pages of describing someone's penis.
Yes.
Kari (32:04):
I don't want to hear about your goddamn true in the front
yard.
Okay, but, but, but I doappreciate that though, because
in a lot of times, like I willadmit, I'm not a huge reader
because.
No, I read to you, you do readto me and I love that and, and
we have a lot of fun when youread to me, but like, it's
(32:26):
sometimes the details do get tobe a little too much for me.
And so if, like, as soon as yousaid, they're short and sweet,
man, you drew my attentionimmediately because that does
speak to me, or I understandthat some people want that like
long and drawn long and drawnout, but it's good to hear that
there are other options asidefrom what I feel like some
fantasy stories can be.
(32:47):
Well, they can
Shae (32:48):
even some of my favorite authors.
Well, I don't I don't call it somuch details.
This is just a lot of filler andI have sometimes I come come out
feeling that.
Okay.
They're just doing this to fillup pages because.
Honestly, they're writing tomarket and so the more pages you
read, the more they get paid.
Yeah don't know for sure ifthat's what they're doing.
(33:08):
That's why I'm not naming anynames, but I I will give I will
that just frustrates me.
And, and even with the sexscenes, if they're too long, I
maybe I'm I've read so many andI've, I am experienced and, you
know, the media, you know, I'mjust like, guys, I don't need to
know how many times he thrustsjust.
Let's go.
(33:29):
Yeah.
You know, just get it, you know,it can still be beautiful and
quick and realistic.
Come on.
Yeah.
Okay.
He's not going to eat you outfor an hour.
Okay.
If he is, he sucks at it becauseyou should have already floated
a million times by now.
And so I'm just like stuck withthe filler.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Like you said, if it takes twopages to describe one room.
(33:53):
I'm skipping
Kari (33:53):
over those pages.
Yeah yeah, you already lost myattention.
I'm just jumping forward
Casey (33:57):
till you're done and we're, all right.
Kari (33:58):
Okay, got it.
All right.
Exactly.
Casey (34:02):
You know, I can get on board with a lot of that because
I do read a lot of fantasy.
Mm hmm.
And there's a lot of it.
I mean, on the one hand, it'slike you're trying to build a
world and you have to have rulesassociated with that entire
world because you're creating acompartmentalized universe and
it has to be like, here'severything that goes along with
it.
But to be able to have somebodytake the other side of that coin
(34:23):
and go, okay.
I get that.
That's cool.
And that's, that's well done.
And you know, enjoy your timedoing that to be able to have it
concise and be like, look, I'mgoing to give you what you're
waiting for.
And like, I know that you're allreading this because you're
looking for certain things.
Let's, let's hit those points.
So I'm going to decrease theamount of like exposition we're
going through and give you likea really good shit.
(34:43):
Yeah.
Just
Kari (34:43):
trim the fat.
It's a little too much.
Well,
Shae (34:46):
in fantasy, you can definitely get away with it
because like you said, it is.
It's expected from fantasyreaders is you have to build
this whole entire world.
That's why with this fantasy.
I'm not going extreme.
Yeah, fantasy, like, it's he canshape shift.
Okay, let's just work on that.
Got it.
Not this magical world.
It's based in this.
This world now, it's just, hehappens to be able to shake
(35:07):
shit.
Okay.
So, because I know I will belike, I'm so bored with my book.
Just
Kari (35:14):
go.
Casey (35:15):
so then I actually had another question as, as for you
as a writer, whenever it comesto crafting.
Different words to describescenes.
Do you ever find that exhaustingto try to do it in different
ways?
Because the way I've seen it inthe past where people are
describing, say it's a sex sceneand they're trying to describe
someone's penis and they'reusing, they're trying to come up
(35:37):
with different ways to do it.
Is, is you find it easy to comeup with like creative new ways
to describe the actions andthings are happening or does it
you find to get it repetitiveand then it becomes like, shit,
I don't know what to say orlike,
Kari (35:51):
like I said, throbbing 100 times.
What else can I say?
Like, how many times are
Casey (35:55):
going to hear
Kari (35:55):
throbbing member?
Yeah.
Shae (35:58):
You know what?
I don't think I've ever usedthrobbing.
Kari (36:01):
Well, now we got a new one for you.
No, I'm just kidding.
That one's overused.
No, that's because,
Shae (36:04):
because you're right.
Kari (36:05):
It's overused.
Throbbing,
Shae (36:06):
throbbing.
Oh my gosh, that is, that to mereminds me of the old Harlem.
Oh, it's throbbing.
You know, really I, I just stayin a way kind of technical.
Like I don't use penis in hervagina.
Yeah.
But I use, you know, cock.
Yeah.
Usually I use that cock forEuropean, if, if he's Italian.
(36:27):
Because that is going to be moreof what they use.
If he's Texan, like myMarienhaus series, they're going
to most likely
Kari (36:33):
say dick.
Casey (36:35):
So you try to keep it true to how, like, the language
of the culture might.
Yeah, you're
Kari (36:39):
so technical and I love that.
Well, and I
Shae (36:42):
mean, I there's an actor Jacopo Ricciardi.
He's an Italian actor and he didGirls to Buy.
With Giulio Berruti and so Italked to him and I was like,
you know, I'm sorry, I'm goingto ask these difficult
questions, but you were in thismovie.
So I figured, so I asked him,you know, what would an Italian
say?
Would he use this word?
And he's like, no, I'm like,okay, but yeah, if it's
(37:03):
European, most likely, they'regoing to use like cunt or
something like that Texan,they're going to say dick and
pussy, you know, they're goingto be real You know, I don't do
the whole, I ain't, I ain't,because I hate that when people
try to write Southern, I'll talklike the ignorant.
Yeah, so, yeah, I try to dothat, but it's, I picture it in
(37:26):
my head, or if it was a scenethat I did with my husband, I
just remember it.
And I guess that to me, it justseems technical because I'm just
writing what I'm seeing andagain, because I'm not dragging
it on, there's really no time orno need to.
It's like Name it differentthings.
Yeah.
And stuff like that.
Now if I've noticed that maybePussy's been used a couple
(37:48):
times, I'll say sex or her tightcanal or Okay.
Something like that.
Yeah.
If it's overused.
Yeah.
I'll, I'll do something likethat.
Definitely.
Casey (37:56):
Okay.
See, I appreciate that.
That's, that's been like aquestion of mine for a while.
It's like, how does a writercome up with the various words
they're going to use?
I just imagine
Kari (38:04):
like a thesaurus is your best friend.
You know?
Like it has to be.
There's a special, there's
Shae (38:09):
a special dirty thesaurus in everything.
Yeah, when I first
Kari (38:12):
started the Wikipedia of dirty talk, it is, it
Shae (38:16):
is.
And it does help you.
I mean, I'll look up how do theFrench you know, say or address
a penis or, you know,
Casey (38:28):
I'm learning new things.
I'm going to go find this.
I'm going to just look up allsorts of words to use in the
bedroom.
I'm going to get real
Kari (38:35):
serious to all of a sudden his vocabulary grows when we're
in the bedroom.
Casey (38:41):
Don't say that it might actually grow further.
Kari (38:44):
It's fine.
I'm going to start calling ityour throbbing cock.
Casey (38:48):
You would never hear me say don't.
Kari (38:51):
Very true.
Casey (38:54):
Well, so it's interesting you said that because you said
that you spoke to an Italianactor who said they would, they
would probably say cock overdick or something like that.
That was that because I, as Iunderstand, you had written a
series about it was it was a mobseries, wasn't it?
Shae (39:08):
Yeah, it was a little bit of a twist on the Italian mob
Roma or sorry, not thepolitically term.
Correct.
Gypsy.
It actually was based on trueevents that my grandmother went
through.
She, she lived in an area oftown that her family was.
A bit connected and there was aband of Roma that would come
(39:31):
every month down this road andof course they live kind of out
in the farmland and stuff likethat.
And they, she would have to hidebecause they would come looking
for child brides for their sonsor their daughters or like that.
And so they always preferreddark hair and light eyes.
And that's what she was.
(39:51):
And so she would always have tohide because otherwise, if you
didn't offer them up, you know,they'd offer you something like,
I'll do something for you.
Give me your daughter, blah,blah, blah to marry my husband
or my son.
They would hide in, or they'dcome and get them if they knew
you had them, they just come.
And so that's how that gotinspired.
And then I met these 3 oldergentlemen.
(40:14):
I was at a coffee shop and these3 older gentlemen were sitting
there talking Romanian to eachother.
I'm just watching and the storyjust plays out in my head and I
go over to him.
I was like, hi, what's yourname?
And one of them is Idris, whichends up being Emiliano's father.
And so it just Yeah, and Ididn't want to I couldn't get
(40:36):
every word right in Italian.
So I did my best, you know,sometimes Google's good.
Sometimes it's not.
But yeah, I tried to talk to himas much as possible between his
his movies and modeling and allthat.
And I was just like, I needhelp.
I don't is this true?
Is this a stereotype?
Is this going to be rude?
Yeah, I don't, I don't know.
And he was like, yeah, that's astereotype.
That's not true.
Or.
Oh, yeah, that's a, that's astereotype, but it's true.
(40:58):
Yeah.
So, yeah, and then I alreadyknew kind of the mob, like I
said, my grandparents wereconnected.
So, I, I knew those stories andkind of the details of what it
meant and everything.
So.
Casey (41:13):
Well, okay.
Well, so we've seen, as we said,we've seen this like explosion
or at least on from the outsidein, we've seen this explosion of
like erotic literature.
It's be, I love the way that youhad said it because this is true
of the entire sex positivitymovement is that it's becoming
like, or okay to be like, thisis what I'm into sexually
speaking.
(41:33):
It's no longer something whereeveryone has to be like, no, we
don't talk about that.
Cause we've mentioned thisbefore on our show is that we
both grew up in sex neutral.
Households essentially didn'treally get that much of an
education on it.
It was more of like, we justdon't talk about it.
And so for us, it had all been,you know, it had all been Dr.
Ruth and it had been real sex.
(41:55):
Like all these shows stealing mymom's books, early porn online,
where it would be 10 minutes.
Image, that was, that was moreof our sex education.
So it's been this really, reallyinteresting change to see in the
last probably 10 years or so towatch sex positivity start to
blow up and people will be ableto be like, no, I'm open about
(42:17):
who I am and what I enjoy onboth on my sexuality level as
well as just a level of who I amin terms of sex.
So it's really, really cool tosee.
And I would imagine as anauthor, you're like, Well, this
is cool for me too, because nowpeople are talking more about my
work.
Shae (42:33):
Yeah, and I, I like, I, I always tell people I cannot
write a meek.
Female character, you know, theones that's like, oh, he's so
hot.
I'm just gonna let him dowhatever, you know, I can't I've
tried because at the time thatwas marketing.
That's what people wanted.
And I was like, I just can't doit.
I can't let him talk to her likethat.
(42:54):
Yeah, you know, so I was reallyhappy.
It wasn't the niche thing at thetime, but I was like, you know
what?
I'm just going to do it.
And I, I liked being able toshow women.
Look, she's still a strongcharacter and she's going to
tell him to stick it up his assif he's in, you know, in the
wrong or insults her in someway, but at the same time, it's
(43:16):
okay for him to be a man and hersubmit.
It's okay.
Submission is not Giving up andbeing a doormat or a dog to
kick, right?
It's
Kari (43:26):
okay.
Yeah, there's a lot of controlin being submissive.
Yeah,
Shae (43:31):
it it's okay to let a man be a man with his instincts of
protection and and and dominanceand stuff like that.
And it's okay for you to letyourself be a little bit
vulnerable and stuff like that,because it's wonderful.
Women are empowered.
That's absolutely wonderful.
Good for them, but at the sametime don't take somebody else's
(43:51):
power as well.
So it's okay to have this pushand pull that satisfies your
sexual Desires or it you know,if it works better when you the
woman takes it off her shoulderand says look just take this I
need you to take this.
Mm hmm.
It's okay you don't have to feellike you're less of a empowered
woman because you gave Yoursignificant significant other
(44:15):
power local power.
It's okay.
And so that's the kind of tie.
I wanted to because if, if youever read for his own
protection, she is a femalesecurity agent, protecting a
man.
Of course, he doesn't wantanybody protecting him because,
you know, he's a man and blah,blah, blah.
But he, through the entire book,the only reason he disrespects
(44:37):
her at any time is because hethinks she's some and
privileged, you know, becausethey're loaded, you know, but
they weren't always like that.
So that's the only reason heever disrespects her.
But when he comes to a woman andher power as his protector.
Yes, he wants to protect her andhe even knocks her out of the
way to protect her, but she getsup in his face and it's like.
Look, asshole, I'm here toprotect you.
(44:59):
And so I wanted to write thatkind of dynamic.
It is okay to submit to eachother and women.
It is okay to submit and youstill are a powerful person.
Casey (45:10):
Yeah, that's, I mean, that's, that's kind of the shift
that we've seen, right?
Culturally speaking, is that wesee that women empowerment has
been this, this huge, huge topicand there's, there's a clash
that we see, but we talk andwe've talked about this.
In private, a lot is the factthat the way that boys are
instructed to grow up the wholething of never asking for help,
(45:32):
the whole thing of that you mustbe masculine, the whole thing of
that.
You must push down emotions.
You're not allowed to crybecause you're a pussy if you do
and all that kind of stuffversus the.
the women who are told thatyou're supposed to be the
caregiver and you're supposed tosacrifice your own emotions and
your own self in order to pleasethe people around you.
So there was that message.
And then we have women'sempowerment, which is like, be
(45:54):
your own person, be independent,be a boss ass fucking bitch,
which is an amazing message tohave to people.
But what we do see is that whatthe culture, what, what, what
people tend to do is we go fromone extreme to the other and it
just bounces.
And you have a lot of peoplethat are able to find the
balance, which is like thatsweet spot, but for the most
part, everything goes on thisbig shift of going one, one side
(46:16):
to the other, to one side, theother.
So I love the fact that you talkabout that.
It's like, yeah, it's, it's abig, you can be powerful and you
all can also make the consciouschoice to be like what I want.
Is to submit to you and I'mgiving you that permission.
I'm not giving you my power atall.
I'm giving you my permission inthis scene.
Kari (46:37):
Yeah, yeah.
Because I'm
Shae (46:38):
telling you, I had so much pent up.
Like, I didn't know there was somuch on my shoulders until I
released it and it.
Like, literally, it sounds sodramatic, but it literally felt
like I was floating because it'slike, yeah, well, why didn't you
tell me?
Of course I'll take that.
I thought you just wanted it.
I thought you liked doing thisstuff, you know, this, whatever,
(46:58):
making sure this was do done.
Right.
And I was like, no, I don't takeit.
And I was just like, no, I gotnothing to do.
So it's, it's an amazingfeeling.
Casey (47:13):
Well, I think we're, we're coming up on time.
Do you have any more questions?
I felt like you had, you were,you had something
Kari (47:20):
you were on the verge of saying, I did have one more
question.
And it does kind of tie into,into something maybe a little
bit differently, but I love to,to ask people in your shoes like
this, like what other authors.
Like to, to read, like who havehas.
Some of the inspiration in yourlife to, to have the confidence
to sit down and, and write whatyou do.
Shae (47:41):
Well, when I was younger, it was definitely Anne Rice.
Okay.
Kari (47:44):
I know that's I think Anne Rice is the one that wrote the
vampire books that I
Shae (47:48):
read.
Interview with a vampire, yes.
And it's okay.
Yeah, they didn't have anysexual aspects to it.
Kari (47:55):
I remember that name, but it's not, it's not, it's not who
I was thinking of, but I doremember and rice.
I remember my mom reading andreading the inner of the vampire
and all that.
But even before
Shae (48:04):
that, it was Emily Dickinson, again, dark.
So I guess I always stuck, youknow, and I did read the
franchise we were talking aboutearlier and I was like, okay, I
get it.
Whatever, I'm very disappointedin that aspect, but I get what
she's doing.
But then I ran across PenelopeSkye and Peppa Winters again.
Penelope Skye, to me, is thequeen of dark romance and she
(48:27):
touches on some pretty deep,dark ideas.
But she, it's always redeemable.
I'm telling you, if you, youhave to be ready to read her
stuff because you're absolutelygoing to hate it at the
beginning.
You're gonna be so angry.
I can't believe she's writingthis.
How does she think this is okay?
(48:48):
And then if you just stick withit, you're like, this is
magical.
This, you know, because I don'tknow about you, but personally,
as a mom, you have to, you haveto be calm.
You know, you have to do this.
You have to do this.
You have to be a certain way.
And so, when it was time for meto relax, and I've had to hold
in all these.
Emotions trying not to yell atmy kids, trying not to yell at
(49:10):
my husband or whatever I canread these.
And feel all that without sayinga word.
I can feel the rage.
I want to release.
I can feel the sorroweverything.
And that, for me, is whatPenelope sky did.
And why she, I mean, I getchills talking about it.
She honestly, I was like, thisis what I want to do.
(49:31):
I want to do this for others.
One, it's entertaining andfreaking.
Okay, I may have to put thisback and go find my toy kind of
situation.
Yeah.
I mean, that's how good it isbecause you're like dark, dark,
dark, dark.
Whoa,
Kari (49:43):
that
Shae (49:44):
was hot.
Was that hot?
That shouldn't have been hot,you know, but it does.
I wanted to do that.
Yes, she writes a lot longerbooks than I do, but.
She just opens that wholeemotional side of you where if
your heart starts pounding, yourchest warms, your loins,
everything starts weeping, youknow, whatever you want to say
it poetically.
(50:04):
And so she is my main, like, sheis my, my Gandhi of dark
Kari (50:09):
romance.
I'm searching her books then,because I will be honest, I've
started to read some of theseand I am not interested.
Yeah,
Shae (50:17):
they, they start off slow, definitely, but they're intense.
Yeah, as long as I
Kari (50:22):
know the intensity is coming, I, that's even better if
I know that the intensity iscoming, you know?
Yeah, it's
Shae (50:30):
definitely something you probably need to read when
you're, you're ready to fullyrelax.
Got it.
You're going to
Kari (50:34):
get mad.
Casey's going to come in.
I'm going to be crying.
Go away.
Shae (50:41):
I'm like, what?
Oh, sorry.
I'm not mad at you.
I'm mad at Crow.
I'm so mad at Crow.
Casey (50:49):
Oh Lord.
I love it.
That's good.
Well, we covered a lot today andwe super appreciate that.
So, Shay, thank you for being onthe show.
If, if people want to find yourbooks, they want to connect with
you.
They want to wait.
How can they do that?
Give us the rundown.
As of right
Shae (51:04):
now, since I'm my own publisher at One Man's Show,
it's just on Amazon right now.
My newest release, ChainedTruth, which is a, in the Roma
galaxy is on Kindle Unlimited,otherwise they're all just on
ebook and paperback.
But yeah, they're pretty muchjust on Amazon right now, but a
lot of my stuff I, I promo on myInstagram and, and stuff like
that.
That's my main That's my mainchat.
(51:26):
And
Casey (51:26):
that's, if I have this correct, that is Shea, S H A E
dot Coon, C O O N, author.
Yes, sir.
Great.
And that's not that we are goingto encourage everyone to start
following you.
Check out some of your stuff.
Read a ton of your, of a ton ofyour material.
We can assure you're going tohave a good time doing it.
So having said that for anotherepisode of come with Casey, we
(51:47):
are hosts.
I'm Dr.
Casey Sanders and I'm CarrieSanders.
We'll see you next time.
All right.
(00:00):
Well, welcome back to anotherepisode of come with Casey.
as always, we are your hosts.
I'm Dr.
Casey Sanders.
And I'm Carrie Sanders.
And, we have a cookie ass
Kari (00:10):
episode today.
Well, we have a guest and guestepisodes are always my fucking
favorite.
Casey (00:15):
Yes, they are.
We know that we know thatanytime that we've had guests on
the conversations have been likesuper lighthearted and we've had
some really, really fantasticpeople to go through.
I mean, we've had, we've hadporn stars on, we've had PhDs
on.
So I feel like that just createsthis wide spectrum in the whole
realm of sex and sex positivityand educating the public on kink
(00:36):
friendly practices.
So there was, there was onething in particular that people
had reached out.
On to it's a request from us andbecause of this is such a sharp
rise in an erotic literaturethat we've seen and it may mean
it may be like a neat thing, butwe see this like it's everywhere
Kari (00:54):
it's fucking everywhere, but then, you know, you ask and
you shall receive.
So let's introduce our guestsand then say how you found her
to get short.
Yeah, no, get to the point to
Casey (01:06):
ramble.
You rambled.
Okay.
All right.
So today we are happy to welcomeromance author Shay Kuhn.
Shay, how are you doing today?
I'm good.
How are you guys?
Oh, it's been a good day so far.
It's been a great day.
We've been getting loose, youknow, getting stuff done.
Kari (01:21):
But, but the, the, the way in which we found her, I really
want you to say, because youcame home and you were so
excited.
And I'm like, What the fuck areyou talking about?
So go
Casey (01:32):
into that.
My excitement was driven by thefact that we had had so many
people reach out to us saying,Hey, you're all going to get
like an erotic author on.
And we had, we'd been likeputting it out there.
Like we need to find someonethat we can get on.
The universe heard
Kari (01:44):
you real hard.
So,
Casey (01:48):
so I'm taking our son to, to high school one day and we're
driving in the car and me andhim are having a conversation
and we pull up behind thisvehicle and in front of me, it's
just got this big, likeInstagram handle on it and the
Instagram handle was, it wasShay Kuhn author.
And then it said I think this islike dark romance on the, on the
back of it.
So this, like, it's staring mein the fucking face.
(02:11):
As the universe is, here you go.
It's like, here you go.
And so I immediately picked upmy phone and was like, we're
just going to try this out.
And I like popped up Instagram,found your page, clicked follow
and immediately sent a DM thatwas like, want to be on a show
about
Kari (02:25):
sex?
Casey (02:28):
So yeah, it was, it was an interesting way of getting in
contact with us.
It really was.
Shae (02:33):
Yeah, it's it's definitely making its money back, I guess.
Kari (02:38):
So, so go ahead and tell us a little bit about yourself.
Shae (02:41):
I'm a mother and a wife.
I obviously I've been writingsince I was little.
About 12 years old, but it's allbeen dark, but it's mostly been
like poetry or just dark storiesin general and then just life
got in the way, took a very longbreak.
And then about.
(03:02):
I'd say about 6 years ago, Istarted up writing another book,
but this time I took a differenttwist with it and had it be a
married couple rather than yourusual.
You know, instant love orwhatever like that, and it was
actually about a troubled couplethat were having troubles,
hardcore, almost on the brink ofdivorce.
And then they decided to bring alittle kink BDSM into their life
(03:25):
because she was desperate.
Or some kind of change to, youknow, she felt like she was the
man of the house and, you know,just having to take care of
kids, you know, be adisciplinarian.
And so they were having atroubled marriage and they
introduced this into theirlives, did what the process, you
know, the safe process.
And so I just wanted to have adifferent twist and it took me 4
(03:45):
years to finish it and I waslike, what the hell?
I'm just going to go ahead andpublish it.
Published it publisher came,liked it, so unpublished it,
republished it, then I pickedsome stuff up and then
republished it.
But yeah, my, my inspiration is,you know, Penelope Skye.
She's, she's the queen of darkromance.
And I just loved how thoseparticular genre or subgenre
(04:09):
gives you this Just highs andlows.
One time you, you want to throwyour phone because you're pissed
because he's being a dick, butthe next he's bowing at her
feet, you know, and so I, Iloved that roller coaster ride
of just hating absolutely hatingthe characters because they're
mean or.
Stick heads or something likethat to absolutely adoring'em
(04:31):
and falling in love and youknow, getting all worked up.
'cause they decided to be alittle mean in the bedroom, you
know?
Kari (04:37):
Yeah.
And so where did you get some ofthe, like BDSM inspiration for
this story?
Did you do like, do research,was it like personal experience?
Like where, like why did yourmind go to that being the
healing and the relationship inthat story?
Because it's
Shae (04:54):
a true story.
It's a true story between me andmy husband.
We many times we were on thebreak.
Divorce and it was because I wasraised to, you know.
Don't depend on anybody, youknow, don't especially man don't
man stuff like that.
And it was very toxic.
I found out because.
I wasn't maybe I wasn'tdepending on, but I wasn't
(05:15):
letting him do anything.
I was, I was the leader I wasthe man I was the everything and
it was freaking exhausting.
And, you know, he felt less thanwhat he actually was.
And so we just kind of discoverand I said, look, I've never
told a partner this, but.
I just want you to spank my asswhen I meet when I'm bad, you
(05:35):
know, yeah, because I mean, itjust centers you sometimes.
And so I, I was always into it.
He was a little shocked by it,but I was like, I just, you
know, if you're willing to go onthis journey with me, you know,
who knows what, what couldhappen.
And we took the classes andsafety courses.
I love that.
Yeah, everything like that.
And he just, he blossomed, he, Imean, it energized him, it made
(05:59):
him feel more empowered and beempowered, even being a
submissive, you know, of course,the submissive is typically the
real 1 in control because you'rethe 1 that has the power to say,
stop, you know.
And so, yes, it was, it's basedon a true story.
I mean, the stuff in the bookthat happens later down,
obviously that's for sure.
Addict effect and kidnapping,blah, blah, blah.
You know, but yeah, but it, it,for the majority of the book,
(06:20):
it's, it's a true story.
Casey (06:22):
See, that's, that's so interesting to me because you,
you've, it sounds like you, notonly on a personal note had that
dramatic change within yourlife, but then how did, how was
it being able to take that and.
Put it on paper to be like, allright, I'm putting this out
there for the world to see.
I mean, to me, that is, I'mgonna put it like this to me.
That's erotic within itself.
(06:44):
Unlike a personal being like,I'm putting some very intimate
things in here and I'm writingthings in and I'm putting this
out for the world to see.
And so they're getting a pieceof me that is not something that
everybody has gotten to see.
So what was, what was that likein that first, like initial
publication to be like, here itis.
Let's talk about it.
Shae (07:03):
Actually, it felt good because my family, we are not
shy about talking about sexexcept my dad, you know, my
dad's like, oh, my God.
But other than that, we're notshy about it.
And they've always known.
I've kind of had this, thiskinky side and stuff like that.
So they knew what the book wasgoing to be about.
And it meant.
You know, started to mimic thechange we were having, but they,
(07:26):
they haven't read it that far,but they're very proud and they
have the book.
But, yeah, it was just like, youknow, what the hell this is 1,
let me back up a little becauseof this.
At the same time, there was thisbig phenomenon going with this
certain franchise and I.
(07:47):
It was getting a bit worrisomebecause it wasn't the truth.
Yes, not
Kari (07:52):
at all.
Yeah,
Shae (07:53):
and now I am thankful to that franchise in a way because
As we get into the interviewmore of why I think an explosion
happened.
I think there's, it's not theexplosion people think, but
we'll get into that.
But I was like, you know what?
I'm trained.
Both of us are trained, I'mgoing to put in some scenarios,
actual scenes that have happenedand it felt good.
(08:15):
1, I was getting it out onpaper.
I was reliving that moment, eventhough I could go if I want to,
but I'm reliving that moment of.
Release of hallelujah, you know,and at the same time, it's like,
okay, this is the correct way ofdoing it.
Yeah, you know, don't you can'tdo this, you know, and, and, but
(08:37):
I did it in a way where itwasn't shaming anybody that, oh,
you're wrong.
And so it was just a wonderfulrelease to live it to help
others out to, you know, if youwant the real thing, this is the
real thing.
Yeah.
Kari (08:48):
So
Casey (08:48):
see, that's always interesting to me because we've
had a number of, of educatorsand, and people that have, that
have said that very same thing.
And of course we all know whichfranchise we're talking about,
but whenever people that areactual sex educators, actual
therapists that have done thework behind this, that come out
and be like, look, what you'reseeing is that's, that's not,
(09:11):
What this is, there's, there's,you know, violation of consent
going on, there's coercion goingon.
There's all these like negativeaspects that's being presented
in a way that
Kari (09:21):
it got like glammed up, which were like, it's a
beautiful thing, but.
Consent is, is the number one inall of, in all of this.
And that is something that thosefranchises happened to do was
remove consent.
And, and so as well as it was tolike bring up this beautiful
topic I'm glad that we haveauthors kind of going through
(09:42):
and, and someone that iseducated like yourself.
Going through and writing whatthese scenes can actually be and
what they should be And I thinkthat's actually what literature
has been been lacking, you know,yeah
Casey (09:56):
Especially in romance because I didn't grow up reading
any of this stuff as like afucking cis hetero male.
I was not This is not somethingthat was like, Hey, check this
out.
But I know that you had talkedabout being exposed to,
Kari (10:08):
Oh, I would steal my mom's books and they were all like,
you know, like vampires and youknow, which that was hot as
shit.
But I, I remember like in thesebooks and like reading them and
then my mom, like finding him inmy room and her being like, are.
Are you good?
Like, are you okay to read this?
And I was like, Mom, I've readlike all of them.
I'm totally fine.
But, but I, that was one of mycuriosities was like, I remember
(10:32):
it being a thing back in the dayand we all know the novel
covers, right?
With like the muscular man andlike the wind blowing, and like,
and the girl folding over hisarm, you know?
And, and like, I remember those,right?
It's
Casey (10:47):
like Zool and Ghostbusters.
Right.
That is such a cute
Kari (10:50):
thing to say.
But, but then there was almostlike the Silence and and maybe
those books were still being outthere and maybe I just wasn't
privy to it at the time andmaybe those was a different part
of my life, but I felt like itwas really popular and then it
like slow down and then now herewe are and just these are like
(11:11):
gained massive popular.
Yeah,
Casey (11:13):
I want the insider view on this because you being you
being the author that you are,I'm sure that you have something
to tell us about, like, kind ofwhat is what the landscape looks
like in terms of eroticliterature over the years.
Shae (11:25):
Well, I know it started out still even though the
franchise that started kind ofthis, and that's the thing is I
don't think it brought newpeople to the genre or this
phenomenon.
I think what it did is it justopened people up to say, oh,
okay, well, this kind of stuffis making waves.
(11:47):
Maybe I can be a little moreopen with my reading you know,
what I like to read and stufflike that.
Yes, don't get me wrong.
Ignorant people to get too far.
That's where the danger came in,but I think it did also just let
people feel a little morerelaxed with what they like to
read.
And then as more and more camein, and then us darker people
(12:07):
started coming out more andmore.
And so I don't really think itwasn't there.
It just was quiet something, youknow, background, you know, it
was something to be ashamed ofyour guilty pleasure.
And I think now it should, itjust exploded when people are
like, I don't feel guilty aboutthis anymore.
I, you know, this is, I'm openwith my, you know, my sexuality.
(12:31):
I'm okay with beast on human,you know, but, and I think
people realized and started toaccept, okay, guys, this isn't.
It's not porn.
It's it's a fantasy.
And when you stop trying to makeyour husband or your significant
(12:52):
other or your partner thatfantasy, I think people started
to understand.
Okay, this is just somethingit's it is literature.
I know some people stillconsider it, you know, porn or,
you know, just how I can dothat.
No, you can't.
No, you can't because it's avery sensitive subject because
there are tons of triggers that,you know, people aren't okay
(13:14):
with.
Oh, you're being punished.
So I'm going to whip you.
Yeah, I'm not okay with that.
So you have to be aware of that,but at the same time, you have
to write what.
What is in your mind?
Mm hmm.
And, but sometimes also you haveto write to market, which I hate
that phrase, but it's true.
If, if your market that you'refollowing, you know, is not, not
(13:38):
really into BDSM and stuff likethat, most likely you're going
to lose them, and that's fine.
That's fine.
You got to do what you got todo.
But like this, this whole newtaboo ban that they want to do.
Don't read it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, we most, if not all darkromance authors that I've come
across put a warning and we getvery specific, you know,
(14:00):
kidnapping slavery.
I actually work with a non nonhuman trafficking organization.
I volunteer and I'm on the frontlines.
So, when that stuff happens inmy books.
Those people are never going towin.
Yeah.
I actually tell the truth ofsome of the process.
(14:21):
Some of you can't telleverything that's violation, but
I go through that process and soI know, listen, you guys, you
need to understand there'skidnapping in here.
There's slavery in here.
There's.
You know, whipping in here,there's consensual, you know, or
what do they say?
What is it called?
Semi consensual or somethinglike that?
Force
Kari (14:38):
consensual, non consent.
There you
Shae (14:40):
go.
There you go.
I let them know because for somepeople that is very, very hot.
Yeah, yeah.
And for some people it's not andso.
You, you, you gotta be careful,but
Kari (14:54):
not everybody is.
Have you ever had an editor,like, come to you and tell you,
like, Mmm, you gotta take thatpart out, that might have been a
little too much?
Oh yeah.
You're like, oh
Shae (15:02):
yeah.
That's, that's why I don't haveeditors anymore.
Okay, fair.
That's why, that's why my book,my books, you'll see probably
little You know, mess ups hereand there because I just dropped
all my editors.
I opened them.
I started my own publishingcompany where it's just kind of
bare bones.
We do the best we can to editit.
But yes, I had one thatcompletely turned my book into a
manual.
(15:24):
The way they edited it wasawful.
Took my voice out completely.
And then the publisher I waswith, yeah.
Kari (15:35):
we hear you loud and clear.
Shae (15:37):
Got it.
Yeah, they, they definitely takeyour, your Your voice along with
everything else.
So, yes, I, I don't do editorsanymore.
Okay.
I'm, I'm, well, old enoughcognizant, cognizant enough and
experienced in marketing andwriting to, you know, all that
enough to know.
Don't do that.
Yeah.
You know, this isn't gonna work.
This is a, right now, the, theclimate is not in that, you
(16:02):
know, that, that's just notwhere we're going right now.
I know what my strengths are.
I am not a, you know, male, maleor same sex writer.
I'm, I'm just not strong onthat.
I'm not a fantasy writer.
Sure.
I am trying.
But I will do my research.
I'll talk to a fantasy writer,or I'll talk to a same sex
writer.
Mm-Hmm.
Because the last thing I wannado is insult anybody.
(16:24):
Sure.
Yeah, and especially with samesex that you have to be careful
with that, you know, so I'mgoing to respect those authors
and what they do.
Because I, I wrote 1 short storyand it was only because I love
the characters and I wanted togive them their own
Kari (16:38):
story.
No, I totally get that.
Like if I've never cooked fish,I'm not going to write book
about cooking fish, you know,like, and I get that and I
respect that.
So and because there are sometimes that I've like read books
and I'm like, do you know whatyou're talking about?
So I honestly, I find a lot of,I find a lot of respect in that.
And it does seem that you pull alot of from your books, from
(17:00):
personal experiences.
And I feel like that's whatmakes it more authentic and more
real and then more relatable,you know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Casey (17:08):
Yeah, there's, you know, it's, it's interesting that you
talk about like fantasy and allthat stuff because there is a,
will remain unnamed, but very,very popular romantic fantasy
series that's been floatingaround for the past like year or
two.
What's really, reallyinteresting to me is that.
I like to listen to what peoplethat are like fantasy authors or
(17:28):
critics say about these kind ofthings and a lot of times they
trash them so hard and I get itlike that's part of their job is
to is to critique it and allthat, but they like pick these
things apart and I'm readingthem going, Ooh.
Stuff that hadn't occurred to mebefore.
So I can imagine it can bedifficult, especially whenever
you have, like, you're buildingin the romanticism and trying to
(17:49):
appeal to certain audienceswhile maintaining true to, like,
your, your, your world you'recreating can be a super
difficult thing.
Yeah,
Shae (18:02):
I've been fortunate enough.
If you go on mine, there's not alot of reviews because I don't
send out arcs.
I don't send out beta readsbecause.
That is just going to kill mydrive because it doesn't matter
if you get 500 to 1000 goodreviews, there's going to be
somebody who wants to be adickhead and just, I'm going to
(18:23):
make sure I gave you a one starreview.
Oh, thanks.
Appreciate that.
Yeah, you know, and, and it'll,I think I got 1, oh, my gosh,
there's so much BDSM in thisbook.
It is classified as a BDSMerotic novel.
Casey (18:37):
That's the fucking point.
Shae (18:39):
Yeah, I'm like, and they're like, well, I thought it
was suspense.
Well, there is, but it's labeledBDSM to protect you.
So, you know, this is coming,but yeah, I, I, I just don't
even bother with the reviews.
I know it doesn't help when you,when you barely see any reviews
on a book, they're like, oh, itmust not be that good.
Well, it is what it is.
I'd rather have.
(19:00):
You wonder about it then see allthese people just being
completely ridiculous.
Yeah.
Nobody's not everybody's gonnalike my books, you know,
Kari (19:10):
it's I mean, you're saying, yeah, you're speaking to
2 people that are in the serviceindustry.
We get it.
And that has nothing even dowith our podcast.
Like, right.
You're a chiropractor.
I'm a hairdresser.
We are service people.
We understand reviews, right?
Like I'm a blonde specialist andwhen people come at me and
they'll be like, you made me tooblonde.
I'm like, are you kidding me?
(19:32):
It's in my title, you know?
So I, I can absolutely relate tothat.
I, I a hundred percentunderstand what what you're
talking about.
And, and I did kind of want toswitch gears just a little bit.
You, you had mentioned, youknow, being married, having
children.
This is something that's veryclose to me.
I, you know, I'm married, I havechildren and, and we run a sex
(19:54):
podcast.
So I want to ask you howcomfortable are you talking with
your kids about what it is thatyou do?
Shae (20:03):
I mean, it's.
I don't get into the down anddirties, but I mean, that they,
they're fine with it.
I mean, it's inspired mydaughter to write a fantasy
series, obviously
Kari (20:13):
leaving it at fantasy
Shae (20:16):
and she's asked to read some of my books because 1 of
the characters is based on herpersonality.
Very, very, Lizzie is based offmy daughter's personality.
And so, I mean, my.
I don't really ask much.
I'll tell them about scenes likeaction scenes or something like
that.
You know, I did honestly ask myson a question about.
(20:37):
Same sex, you know, male andmale same sex you know,
situation, obviously not thekink part, but I did because my
son is homosexual and he's, he'slike, well, you know, I don't
know about that, but I'm like,okay.
Okay.
But no, they're, they're fine.
And I told him, you know, guys,I'm not going to go with a pin
name.
I'm going to put it on the backof my car, you know, and they're
(20:58):
like.
Casey (21:00):
People are going to know what I do and you guys need to
know what I do.
Well,
Kari (21:03):
and that's what I'm curious about.
Like you've just, you've alwaysleft it being like an open
conversation.
You haven't like hit it fromthem.
Have you ever had a situationwhere like.
A friend of theirs was like, Oh,your mom does this, you know,
like, have you ever beenintroduced to that situation?
Shae (21:19):
No.
Actually my, some of my, he's16, so some of my son's friends
have actually asked to read someof my books and I'm like, it is
18 and older, you need to talkto your mom.
I'm, I'm not
Kari (21:31):
your parent.
Right?
I'll send it to you in twoyears, but
Shae (21:35):
I guess, I guess my son's snuck one to him and they're
reading it at school.
Like, he takes a picture of himreading it at school.
I'm like, Oh, gee,
Casey (21:46):
give me a fucking trouble, right?
Oh, well, we're currently in isalready on edge.
So
Kari (21:52):
yeah, seriously, where we're at.
Don't let them see that.
The
Shae (21:57):
good thing is, is all my covers are pretty discreet.
You know,
Kari (22:00):
it's not the naked woman falling in the arms, you know,
Shae (22:04):
exactly.
And so, no, we don't, it'spretty much, Oh, mom's going to
write her book.
It's like, it's nothing at
Kari (22:12):
all here.
And that's super relatable tous.
I mean, we, we're not like, Heykids, come look at our wall of
dildos.
They know that they exist, butwe're not like indulging within
that.
And they know our podcast room,like.
We got curtains up, it's shutevery day, it, you know, locked
when it has to be.
But I think it's important tohave discussions with your
(22:35):
children to let them know whoyou are and what you do and your
true self, I guess.
But I love finding other parentsthat have the ability to be just
as open.
And I honestly like, I applaudyou for that.
I think it's amazing what youdo.
You put your sticker on the backof your car.
Like people know what you do.
And I think that's amazing.
Shae (22:56):
Well, I would say, I, I think the first problem I ever,
first and only really is when Ifirst started this process, I,
of course, designed my owncovers.
And I was looking at pictures.
They were fully clothed, but,or, they had their shirts off,
you know, and I'm looking atpicture after picture.
What I'm seeing is art.
What I can use on my cover.
(23:17):
Of course, if a little, youknow, my little girl walks in
and she sees half naked guys.
And she's offended for herfather.
Mom, why are you looking atthose?
Daddy wasn't like that.
I said, baby, daddy knows.
You know, and, and to her, Irealized Wow, okay, this could
really make her think that, youknow, mommy's being bad, or why
is mommy looking at other men?
(23:37):
That's not right.
I have, you know, the calendarup with Wonder Act Heiress
models.
I mean, you can see Andrew inthe back.
I mean, I do have those.
So I had to sit down and explainto her.
No, I think your daddy is boy.
Sorry.
Your daddy's my man.
He, I would never I said, honey,I don't see and make a chest and
(23:58):
sexy.
I don't see that.
I see what will sell correct onmy book.
I am, you know, I said, this isnothing that I want.
I have what I want.
And so she finally started.
Realizing that, oh, okay.
Okay.
And and just seeing how I treather father that he is the 1 I
find sexy, but that was the 1sttime that I stepped back.
(24:18):
I was like, okay, wait a minute.
Yeah, you know, and I had tokind of get my own room and
stuff like that and lock it andnot lock it, but, you know, let
her know.
And if she comes in and I amlooking at.
You know, I.
Looking up a new toy orsomething like that to use in a
book or something, you know I'llshrink it and stuff like that,
but that was the one thing thatkind of broke my heart a little
(24:40):
bit but then Process of what itmeant and everything.
See, we
Casey (24:44):
had, we have similar things like that happened the
way that we love to do it isthat for us, it opens up a
conversation.
And this is for, for mespecifically, I won't speak for
Carrie on this, but whatever,you know, their kids are seeing
any of our stuff and they dohave that same mentality of
like, wait a minute, you know.
Why are you looking at this overhere, whatever it may be, our
(25:06):
response simply to that is like,you need to understand for these
kids, where are and I would not,they don't say this to them, but
where our arousal lies, likewhere our loyalties lie, what
we've decided.
And that allows us to open upconversations about relationship
structures, structures with themand be able to say like, look,
there's, there's like arousal isnot a.
(25:28):
A controllable thing or arousalis not something that you're
like, I choose to be aroused bythis person, this person alone.
And that's all there will everbe.
We don't have control of that.
It's a natural response.
It is the actions associatedwith that that actually makes
the person.
So that for me, I'm like, thatopens an opportunity to talk to
(25:48):
my kids and be like, what youneed to understand about
something that you might beseeing over here.
That does not change therelationship dynamic that me and
your mother have.
What it does do is allow us toexplore fantasies and allows us
to have open conversation thatnot nonjudgmental because our
effort is to try and do thingslike decreased divorce rates.
(26:08):
Our efforts are try to instructpeople about relationships and
the various structures and thevarious sexualities and the
various everything that existsin the world that people ignore
in favor of a box.
So I, I can get on, I can get onboard with that and I love the
fact that you've got like yourcharacters in the background
hanging up on
Shae (26:28):
the walls.
Well, he's, he's, that's,that's, he's, he has honestly
become like a brother.
Really?
Yeah.
At first it was like, Oh, he'sall over these covers and I'm
like, Oh, he's so handsome, youknow?
And then I got actually likemessaged him, Hey, I love your
work.
Just left it at that.
Never expected to hear from him.
He was blowing out my DM.
Oh, hey, how you doing?
(26:48):
And we became really goodfriends.
And I'm now when I read a bookand he's on the cover, I'm like.
Kari (26:57):
I'm like, I know him way too much for this.
It's
Shae (27:00):
like my brother, it's him doing it.
So I do, I have to picturesomebody else.
Same thing with Wunder.
Wunder is, he's 70 years old andabsolutely gorgeous, but he's
in, when he's in the books andhe's daddy, I'm like, yeah.
Casey (27:15):
No, you have to like separate the character, like, I
do,
Shae (27:22):
I like using the cover as my image for this person, you
know, especially when my brainjust ain't working and I can't.
And then I got to know moremodels and got to speak into
more models you know.
Rajati, you know, all this, I'mlike,
Kari (27:36):
I can't remember
Casey (27:40):
anything anymore.
Just pulling the veil back andbeing like, damn it.
Shae (27:45):
Exactly.
Because then you find out howsweet they are.
Kari (27:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, they wouldn't.
They're actually a person.
Shae (27:50):
Yeah.
They wouldn't spank theirgirlfriend, let alone whip them
with a
Kari (27:54):
belt.
Yeah.
Casey (27:57):
Well, so then that actually brings up a question
for me.
Do you have any.
Favorite erotic scenes thatyou've written that you're just
there in some of the like yourtop that you can be like if I
were To show someone that wantedto see some of my deepest stuff.
This is the thing I would showthem
Shae (28:14):
I would say it actually comes from a short story
Translucent It is about a BDSMclub where it's a spinoff of
another book and she's asubmissive.
Her ex comes back, realizesshe's at that club and he hides
who he is and they do actuallyelectro play.
Casey (28:36):
Yeah.
We've experienced
Kari (28:37):
that.
Yeah.
We've experienced that.
Shae (28:39):
But my favorite was when they did fire play, you know, he
did the alcohol and, and I likedthat because it is one of the
more extreme practices.
Yeah, so you have to be realcareful.
So I made sure, you know, I,because we haven't done it in a
while, but went back andwhenever my safety stuff, make
sure I didn't something that wasgoing to be.
(29:00):
You know, incorrect get somebodykilled stuff.
So that was 1 of my favorites,even though that book has barely
been read, because it is a shortstory.
That is that's 1 of my favoritebetween the electric play and
the fire play.
And I'm not big on, you know.
Blood play, but I do use itsometimes as a power, like,
(29:22):
she's showing that I accept youfor who you are kind of
situation.
But yeah, it's like that.
Like, he's, he's masked.
He won't show who she is.
Of course.
She's smart.
She knows who it is and that'swhy she just gives herself
fully.
And these are 2 things thatshe's been craving, but none of
her doms would do.
They would just not okay withit.
And he did it for her and hejust did it perfect.
(29:43):
And so I like those.
Those are my, those are myfavorite.
Yeah.
Kari (29:46):
Okay.
So are you writing anythingcurrently?
Shae (29:50):
I'm writing two.
I am writing my first fantasy.
It will be on a different namejust because it's usually good
to separate your fantasy withyour other ones.
Okay.
And then I'm writing Archer,which is about a female
assassin.
It's kind of like a John Wickmeets dark
Kari (30:05):
romance.
Okay.
Very
Shae (30:07):
cool.
I like that.
And I think it's one of thefirst, especially in dark
romance.
Bye.
Bye.
It's kind of more of a thriller,but anyways it's going to have a
descendant of the Sioux nation.
So he is Native American,beautiful Native American.
So that comes a little bit frommy, my heritage and so like
that.
So, yeah, we're going to bringthem two together and, but yeah,
(30:28):
it's, it's almost done, but.
I'm going slow on it because Iwant to make sure I get the, the
ethnic experiences and, youknow, tribal rituals and stuff
like that into it accurately.
And it's actually inspired by aa Cherokee fable.
Okay, yeah, so, and it kind ofhelped start the fantasy romance
(30:51):
that I'm writing.
Kari (30:52):
I love how much attention to detail seems to be important
to you.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Like, I'm really picking up onthat and I love that.
Shae (31:01):
Yeah, I, my stories aren't long compared to most, but the
most feedback I've gotten fromthe trusted people I do ask to
read my book is that my booksare short and sweet and they
don't understand how I'm able tofit so much detail and world
building in it when it's soshort.
(31:23):
I'm texting.
I'm like, let's
Kari (31:24):
just get to the point.
Yeah, dude, you're speaking mylanguage.
That's one of the reasons thatsometimes I struggle with
reading fantasy books becauseI'm like, you just described a
tree in 5 pages and I can't, Ican't.
Yes, that's Lord of the Rings.
Thank you for understanding myreference, but I just can't I
You are going I am to a typelike I got shit to do and so if
(31:48):
you're dragging out Unless it'slike a very hot sex scene if
you're dragging out
Casey (31:55):
You, that's the areas where you can, you can take the,
yes,
Kari (31:58):
you will have my undivided attention
Casey (32:00):
to have five pages of describing someone's penis.
Yes.
Kari (32:04):
I don't want to hear about your goddamn true in the front
yard.
Okay, but, but, but I doappreciate that though, because
in a lot of times, like I willadmit, I'm not a huge reader
because.
No, I read to you, you do readto me and I love that and, and
we have a lot of fun when youread to me, but like, it's
(32:26):
sometimes the details do get tobe a little too much for me.
And so if, like, as soon as yousaid, they're short and sweet,
man, you drew my attentionimmediately because that does
speak to me, or I understandthat some people want that like
long and drawn long and drawnout, but it's good to hear that
there are other options asidefrom what I feel like some
fantasy stories can be.
(32:47):
Well, they can
Shae (32:48):
even some of my favorite authors.
Well, I don't I don't call it somuch details.
This is just a lot of filler andI have sometimes I come come out
feeling that.
Okay.
They're just doing this to fillup pages because.
Honestly, they're writing tomarket and so the more pages you
read, the more they get paid.
Yeah don't know for sure ifthat's what they're doing.
(33:08):
That's why I'm not naming anynames, but I I will give I will
that just frustrates me.
And, and even with the sexscenes, if they're too long, I
maybe I'm I've read so many andI've, I am experienced and, you
know, the media, you know, I'mjust like, guys, I don't need to
know how many times he thrustsjust.
Let's go.
(33:29):
Yeah.
You know, just get it, you know,it can still be beautiful and
quick and realistic.
Come on.
Yeah.
Okay.
He's not going to eat you outfor an hour.
Okay.
If he is, he sucks at it becauseyou should have already floated
a million times by now.
And so I'm just like stuck withthe filler.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Like you said, if it takes twopages to describe one room.
(33:53):
I'm skipping
Kari (33:53):
over those pages.
Yeah yeah, you already lost myattention.
I'm just jumping forward
Casey (33:57):
till you're done and we're, all right.
Kari (33:58):
Okay, got it.
All right.
Exactly.
Casey (34:02):
You know, I can get on board with a lot of that because
I do read a lot of fantasy.
Mm hmm.
And there's a lot of it.
I mean, on the one hand, it'slike you're trying to build a
world and you have to have rulesassociated with that entire
world because you're creating acompartmentalized universe and
it has to be like, here'severything that goes along with
it.
But to be able to have somebodytake the other side of that coin
(34:23):
and go, okay.
I get that.
That's cool.
And that's, that's well done.
And you know, enjoy your timedoing that to be able to have it
concise and be like, look, I'mgoing to give you what you're
waiting for.
And like, I know that you're allreading this because you're
looking for certain things.
Let's, let's hit those points.
So I'm going to decrease theamount of like exposition we're
going through and give you likea really good shit.
(34:43):
Yeah.
Just
Kari (34:43):
trim the fat.
It's a little too much.
Well,
Shae (34:46):
in fantasy, you can definitely get away with it
because like you said, it is.
It's expected from fantasyreaders is you have to build
this whole entire world.
That's why with this fantasy.
I'm not going extreme.
Yeah, fantasy, like, it's he canshape shift.
Okay, let's just work on that.
Got it.
Not this magical world.
It's based in this.
This world now, it's just, hehappens to be able to shake
(35:07):
shit.
Okay.
So, because I know I will belike, I'm so bored with my book.
Just
Kari (35:14):
go.
Casey (35:15):
so then I actually had another question as, as for you
as a writer, whenever it comesto crafting.
Different words to describescenes.
Do you ever find that exhaustingto try to do it in different
ways?
Because the way I've seen it inthe past where people are
describing, say it's a sex sceneand they're trying to describe
someone's penis and they'reusing, they're trying to come up
(35:37):
with different ways to do it.
Is, is you find it easy to comeup with like creative new ways
to describe the actions andthings are happening or does it
you find to get it repetitiveand then it becomes like, shit,
I don't know what to say orlike,
Kari (35:51):
like I said, throbbing 100 times.
What else can I say?
Like, how many times are
Casey (35:55):
going to hear
Kari (35:55):
throbbing member?
Yeah.
Shae (35:58):
You know what?
I don't think I've ever usedthrobbing.
Kari (36:01):
Well, now we got a new one for you.
No, I'm just kidding.
That one's overused.
No, that's because,
Shae (36:04):
because you're right.
Kari (36:05):
It's overused.
Throbbing,
Shae (36:06):
throbbing.
Oh my gosh, that is, that to mereminds me of the old Harlem.
Oh, it's throbbing.
You know, really I, I just stayin a way kind of technical.
Like I don't use penis in hervagina.
Yeah.
But I use, you know, cock.
Yeah.
Usually I use that cock forEuropean, if, if he's Italian.
(36:27):
Because that is going to be moreof what they use.
If he's Texan, like myMarienhaus series, they're going
to most likely
Kari (36:33):
say dick.
Casey (36:35):
So you try to keep it true to how, like, the language
of the culture might.
Yeah, you're
Kari (36:39):
so technical and I love that.
Well, and I
Shae (36:42):
mean, I there's an actor Jacopo Ricciardi.
He's an Italian actor and he didGirls to Buy.
With Giulio Berruti and so Italked to him and I was like,
you know, I'm sorry, I'm goingto ask these difficult
questions, but you were in thismovie.
So I figured, so I asked him,you know, what would an Italian
say?
Would he use this word?
And he's like, no, I'm like,okay, but yeah, if it's
(37:03):
European, most likely, they'regoing to use like cunt or
something like that Texan,they're going to say dick and
pussy, you know, they're goingto be real You know, I don't do
the whole, I ain't, I ain't,because I hate that when people
try to write Southern, I'll talklike the ignorant.
Yeah, so, yeah, I try to dothat, but it's, I picture it in
(37:26):
my head, or if it was a scenethat I did with my husband, I
just remember it.
And I guess that to me, it justseems technical because I'm just
writing what I'm seeing andagain, because I'm not dragging
it on, there's really no time orno need to.
It's like Name it differentthings.
Yeah.
And stuff like that.
Now if I've noticed that maybePussy's been used a couple
(37:48):
times, I'll say sex or her tightcanal or Okay.
Something like that.
Yeah.
If it's overused.
Yeah.
I'll, I'll do something likethat.
Definitely.
Casey (37:56):
Okay.
See, I appreciate that.
That's, that's been like aquestion of mine for a while.
It's like, how does a writercome up with the various words
they're going to use?
I just imagine
Kari (38:04):
like a thesaurus is your best friend.
You know?
Like it has to be.
There's a special, there's
Shae (38:09):
a special dirty thesaurus in everything.
Yeah, when I first
Kari (38:12):
started the Wikipedia of dirty talk, it is, it
Shae (38:16):
is.
And it does help you.
I mean, I'll look up how do theFrench you know, say or address
a penis or, you know,
Casey (38:28):
I'm learning new things.
I'm going to go find this.
I'm going to just look up allsorts of words to use in the
bedroom.
I'm going to get real
Kari (38:35):
serious to all of a sudden his vocabulary grows when we're
in the bedroom.
Casey (38:41):
Don't say that it might actually grow further.
Kari (38:44):
It's fine.
I'm going to start calling ityour throbbing cock.
Casey (38:48):
You would never hear me say don't.
Kari (38:51):
Very true.
Casey (38:54):
Well, so it's interesting you said that because you said
that you spoke to an Italianactor who said they would, they
would probably say cock overdick or something like that.
That was that because I, as Iunderstand, you had written a
series about it was it was a mobseries, wasn't it?
Shae (39:08):
Yeah, it was a little bit of a twist on the Italian mob
Roma or sorry, not thepolitically term.
Correct.
Gypsy.
It actually was based on trueevents that my grandmother went
through.
She, she lived in an area oftown that her family was.
A bit connected and there was aband of Roma that would come
(39:31):
every month down this road andof course they live kind of out
in the farmland and stuff likethat.
And they, she would have to hidebecause they would come looking
for child brides for their sonsor their daughters or like that.
And so they always preferreddark hair and light eyes.
And that's what she was.
(39:51):
And so she would always have tohide because otherwise, if you
didn't offer them up, you know,they'd offer you something like,
I'll do something for you.
Give me your daughter, blah,blah, blah to marry my husband
or my son.
They would hide in, or they'dcome and get them if they knew
you had them, they just come.
And so that's how that gotinspired.
And then I met these 3 oldergentlemen.
(40:14):
I was at a coffee shop and these3 older gentlemen were sitting
there talking Romanian to eachother.
I'm just watching and the storyjust plays out in my head and I
go over to him.
I was like, hi, what's yourname?
And one of them is Idris, whichends up being Emiliano's father.
And so it just Yeah, and Ididn't want to I couldn't get
(40:36):
every word right in Italian.
So I did my best, you know,sometimes Google's good.
Sometimes it's not.
But yeah, I tried to talk to himas much as possible between his
his movies and modeling and allthat.
And I was just like, I needhelp.
I don't is this true?
Is this a stereotype?
Is this going to be rude?
Yeah, I don't, I don't know.
And he was like, yeah, that's astereotype.
That's not true.
Or.
Oh, yeah, that's a, that's astereotype, but it's true.
(40:58):
Yeah.
So, yeah, and then I alreadyknew kind of the mob, like I
said, my grandparents wereconnected.
So, I, I knew those stories andkind of the details of what it
meant and everything.
So.
Casey (41:13):
Well, okay.
Well, so we've seen, as we said,we've seen this like explosion
or at least on from the outsidein, we've seen this explosion of
like erotic literature.
It's be, I love the way that youhad said it because this is true
of the entire sex positivitymovement is that it's becoming
like, or okay to be like, thisis what I'm into sexually
speaking.
(41:33):
It's no longer something whereeveryone has to be like, no, we
don't talk about that.
Cause we've mentioned thisbefore on our show is that we
both grew up in sex neutral.
Households essentially didn'treally get that much of an
education on it.
It was more of like, we justdon't talk about it.
And so for us, it had all been,you know, it had all been Dr.
Ruth and it had been real sex.
(41:55):
Like all these shows stealing mymom's books, early porn online,
where it would be 10 minutes.
Image, that was, that was moreof our sex education.
So it's been this really, reallyinteresting change to see in the
last probably 10 years or so towatch sex positivity start to
blow up and people will be ableto be like, no, I'm open about
(42:17):
who I am and what I enjoy onboth on my sexuality level as
well as just a level of who I amin terms of sex.
So it's really, really cool tosee.
And I would imagine as anauthor, you're like, Well, this
is cool for me too, because nowpeople are talking more about my
work.
Shae (42:33):
Yeah, and I, I like, I, I always tell people I cannot
write a meek.
Female character, you know, theones that's like, oh, he's so
hot.
I'm just gonna let him dowhatever, you know, I can't I've
tried because at the time thatwas marketing.
That's what people wanted.
And I was like, I just can't doit.
I can't let him talk to her likethat.
(42:54):
Yeah, you know, so I was reallyhappy.
It wasn't the niche thing at thetime, but I was like, you know
what?
I'm just going to do it.
And I, I liked being able toshow women.
Look, she's still a strongcharacter and she's going to
tell him to stick it up his assif he's in, you know, in the
wrong or insults her in someway, but at the same time, it's
(43:16):
okay for him to be a man and hersubmit.
It's okay.
Submission is not Giving up andbeing a doormat or a dog to
kick, right?
It's
Kari (43:26):
okay.
Yeah, there's a lot of controlin being submissive.
Yeah,
Shae (43:31):
it it's okay to let a man be a man with his instincts of
protection and and and dominanceand stuff like that.
And it's okay for you to letyourself be a little bit
vulnerable and stuff like that,because it's wonderful.
Women are empowered.
That's absolutely wonderful.
Good for them, but at the sametime don't take somebody else's
(43:51):
power as well.
So it's okay to have this pushand pull that satisfies your
sexual Desires or it you know,if it works better when you the
woman takes it off her shoulderand says look just take this I
need you to take this.
Mm hmm.
It's okay you don't have to feellike you're less of a empowered
woman because you gave Yoursignificant significant other
(44:15):
power local power.
It's okay.
And so that's the kind of tie.
I wanted to because if, if youever read for his own
protection, she is a femalesecurity agent, protecting a
man.
Of course, he doesn't wantanybody protecting him because,
you know, he's a man and blah,blah, blah.
But he, through the entire book,the only reason he disrespects
(44:37):
her at any time is because hethinks she's some and
privileged, you know, becausethey're loaded, you know, but
they weren't always like that.
So that's the only reason heever disrespects her.
But when he comes to a woman andher power as his protector.
Yes, he wants to protect her andhe even knocks her out of the
way to protect her, but she getsup in his face and it's like.
Look, asshole, I'm here toprotect you.
(44:59):
And so I wanted to write thatkind of dynamic.
It is okay to submit to eachother and women.
It is okay to submit and youstill are a powerful person.
Casey (45:10):
Yeah, that's, I mean, that's, that's kind of the shift
that we've seen, right?
Culturally speaking, is that wesee that women empowerment has
been this, this huge, huge topicand there's, there's a clash
that we see, but we talk andwe've talked about this.
In private, a lot is the factthat the way that boys are
instructed to grow up the wholething of never asking for help,
(45:32):
the whole thing of that you mustbe masculine, the whole thing of
that.
You must push down emotions.
You're not allowed to crybecause you're a pussy if you do
and all that kind of stuffversus the.
the women who are told thatyou're supposed to be the
caregiver and you're supposed tosacrifice your own emotions and
your own self in order to pleasethe people around you.
So there was that message.
And then we have women'sempowerment, which is like, be
(45:54):
your own person, be independent,be a boss ass fucking bitch,
which is an amazing message tohave to people.
But what we do see is that whatthe culture, what, what, what
people tend to do is we go fromone extreme to the other and it
just bounces.
And you have a lot of peoplethat are able to find the
balance, which is like thatsweet spot, but for the most
part, everything goes on thisbig shift of going one, one side
(46:16):
to the other, to one side, theother.
So I love the fact that you talkabout that.
It's like, yeah, it's, it's abig, you can be powerful and you
all can also make the consciouschoice to be like what I want.
Is to submit to you and I'mgiving you that permission.
I'm not giving you my power atall.
I'm giving you my permission inthis scene.
Kari (46:37):
Yeah, yeah.
Because I'm
Shae (46:38):
telling you, I had so much pent up.
Like, I didn't know there was somuch on my shoulders until I
released it and it.
Like, literally, it sounds sodramatic, but it literally felt
like I was floating because it'slike, yeah, well, why didn't you
tell me?
Of course I'll take that.
I thought you just wanted it.
I thought you liked doing thisstuff, you know, this, whatever,
(46:58):
making sure this was do done.
Right.
And I was like, no, I don't takeit.
And I was just like, no, I gotnothing to do.
So it's, it's an amazingfeeling.
Casey (47:13):
Well, I think we're, we're coming up on time.
Do you have any more questions?
I felt like you had, you were,you had something
Kari (47:20):
you were on the verge of saying, I did have one more
question.
And it does kind of tie into,into something maybe a little
bit differently, but I love to,to ask people in your shoes like
this, like what other authors.
Like to, to read, like who havehas.
Some of the inspiration in yourlife to, to have the confidence
to sit down and, and write whatyou do.
Shae (47:41):
Well, when I was younger, it was definitely Anne Rice.
Okay.
Kari (47:44):
I know that's I think Anne Rice is the one that wrote the
vampire books that I
Shae (47:48):
read.
Interview with a vampire, yes.
And it's okay.
Yeah, they didn't have anysexual aspects to it.
Kari (47:55):
I remember that name, but it's not, it's not, it's not who
I was thinking of, but I doremember and rice.
I remember my mom reading andreading the inner of the vampire
and all that.
But even before
Shae (48:04):
that, it was Emily Dickinson, again, dark.
So I guess I always stuck, youknow, and I did read the
franchise we were talking aboutearlier and I was like, okay, I
get it.
Whatever, I'm very disappointedin that aspect, but I get what
she's doing.
But then I ran across PenelopeSkye and Peppa Winters again.
Penelope Skye, to me, is thequeen of dark romance and she
(48:27):
touches on some pretty deep,dark ideas.
But she, it's always redeemable.
I'm telling you, if you, youhave to be ready to read her
stuff because you're absolutelygoing to hate it at the
beginning.
You're gonna be so angry.
I can't believe she's writingthis.
How does she think this is okay?
(48:48):
And then if you just stick withit, you're like, this is
magical.
This, you know, because I don'tknow about you, but personally,
as a mom, you have to, you haveto be calm.
You know, you have to do this.
You have to do this.
You have to be a certain way.
And so, when it was time for meto relax, and I've had to hold
in all these.
Emotions trying not to yell atmy kids, trying not to yell at
(49:10):
my husband or whatever I canread these.
And feel all that without sayinga word.
I can feel the rage.
I want to release.
I can feel the sorroweverything.
And that, for me, is whatPenelope sky did.
And why she, I mean, I getchills talking about it.
She honestly, I was like, thisis what I want to do.
(49:31):
I want to do this for others.
One, it's entertaining andfreaking.
Okay, I may have to put thisback and go find my toy kind of
situation.
Yeah.
I mean, that's how good it isbecause you're like dark, dark,
dark, dark.
Whoa,
Kari (49:43):
that
Shae (49:44):
was hot.
Was that hot?
That shouldn't have been hot,you know, but it does.
I wanted to do that.
Yes, she writes a lot longerbooks than I do, but.
She just opens that wholeemotional side of you where if
your heart starts pounding, yourchest warms, your loins,
everything starts weeping, youknow, whatever you want to say
it poetically.
(50:04):
And so she is my main, like, sheis my, my Gandhi of dark
Kari (50:09):
romance.
I'm searching her books then,because I will be honest, I've
started to read some of theseand I am not interested.
Yeah,
Shae (50:17):
they, they start off slow, definitely, but they're intense.
Yeah, as long as I
Kari (50:22):
know the intensity is coming, I, that's even better if
I know that the intensity iscoming, you know?
Yeah, it's
Shae (50:30):
definitely something you probably need to read when
you're, you're ready to fullyrelax.
Got it.
You're going to
Kari (50:34):
get mad.
Casey's going to come in.
I'm going to be crying.
Go away.
Shae (50:41):
I'm like, what?
Oh, sorry.
I'm not mad at you.
I'm mad at Crow.
I'm so mad at Crow.
Casey (50:49):
Oh Lord.
I love it.
That's good.
Well, we covered a lot today andwe super appreciate that.
So, Shay, thank you for being onthe show.
If, if people want to find yourbooks, they want to connect with
you.
They want to wait.
How can they do that?
Give us the rundown.
As of right
Shae (51:04):
now, since I'm my own publisher at One Man's Show,
it's just on Amazon right now.
My newest release, ChainedTruth, which is a, in the Roma
galaxy is on Kindle Unlimited,otherwise they're all just on
ebook and paperback.
But yeah, they're pretty muchjust on Amazon right now, but a
lot of my stuff I, I promo on myInstagram and, and stuff like
that.
That's my main That's my mainchat.
(51:26):
And
Casey (51:26):
that's, if I have this correct, that is Shea, S H A E
dot Coon, C O O N, author.
Yes, sir.
Great.
And that's not that we are goingto encourage everyone to start
following you.
Check out some of your stuff.
Read a ton of your, of a ton ofyour material.
We can assure you're going tohave a good time doing it.
So having said that for anotherepisode of come with Casey, we
(51:47):
are hosts.
I'm Dr.
Casey Sanders and I'm CarrieSanders.
We'll see you next time.
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