February 3, 2024 • 53 mins
Let's talk about the sexual spectrum with our favorite educator, Ley David Elliot Crey, PhD!
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(00:00):
Welcome back to another episodeof come with Casey.
We are your cohost.
I'm Dr.
Casey Sanders and I'm CarrieSanders and we are pleased.
We are ecstatic.
We are in love.
We are so fucking happy towelcome back our good friend and
one of the most highly educatedand respectable people that we
(00:21):
have ever met.
We want to welcome back to theshow, this lay David Elliott
Cray, PhD, by the way, welcomeback.
Hey everybody.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
This is really exciting.
It's been a long time since wechatted and it's so great to see
you both.
I know you've become my likesecret mentor, which I haven't
even told you this, but I'm likeinfatuated and I'm like, they
(00:43):
are totally my mentor and thisis how it is and they don't know
it, but this is just how it'sgoing to be and maybe after you
spanked me, I'm not exactlysure, but I know that's what I'm
like.
Are we allowed to reveal thatinformation?
I think so.
We can edit it out later.
It's fine.
You're the master of edits.
Let's say we, we got consent.
If you ever listened to ourepisode it was season two that
(01:04):
we did it.
We went to a sex party.
Yes.
And that was, we had discussed.
You going and experiencingimpact play for the first time.
Yes.
And it was just an honor.
Reveal.
It was our good friend here.
That was the person behind thepaddle.
And that was a lot more than apaddle too.
That was everything.
(01:25):
Oh, the after pictures weregreat too.
Black and bruised.
But so it's been a year since welast.
Talked and we had such a goodtime chatting with you last
time.
And after the show, we hadpeople that were just, pouring
(01:46):
in their love of being like,wow, this was really eyeopening
for me.
This was done in such like anexquisite way.
So we were very pleased withthat.
And we just want to give ourpersonal gratitude to you for
providing us with such aplethora of information.
Well, gratitude accepted andreciprocated, but, we invited
you back for a very specificreason.
(02:07):
And we've discussed this offcamera and we're going to bring
it in today.
We have.
Witnessed over the past and ourexperience, probably the past
year or two this changinglandscape, this transitional
landscape of sexuality and ofall of the seminars and meetings
and things that we've attended,we've had a lot of eye opening
conversations in regards tothings like sexual fluidity and
(02:31):
what it means to be a variousorientations and one of the ones
that we landed on was asexuality.
And you yourself, I believe,before we go into this, I want
to take a second to, to discusswhat we have talked about on our
Instagram page and that is GSRD.
If you haven't heard of thatstands for gender, sexuality and
relationship diversity.
(02:51):
I would love to be able to sayhere's who it was coined by and
here's the evolution of it.
But the important part about itis it's a really good way to get
to.
Know someone in terms of theirinterests, orientation, and what
they're really looking for interms of relationships.
So I wanted to pose thatquestion to you first.
Would you mind sharing us withyour your GSRD with us?
Absolutely.
(03:13):
So in terms of my gendersexuality and relationship
diversity, where I fit on thatwhole landscape.
So I am a non binary transgenderfeminine person.
I am.
a sapphically oriented,aromantic, asexual relationship
anarchist.
(03:33):
And that term GSRD coined by Dr.
Meg John Barker to myunderstanding and knowledge.
Okay.
See, there you go.
Already learned.
That's like the most punk rockanswer I ever heard.
Thank you for, so we want to, wego.
A lot of that, and that's been aterm that's been closer to us
because now we're able to sitdown with people whenever we
first meet them and say, if weask that consensually ask this
(03:55):
question, it provides us withwhat I feel is like this whole
bit of information right upfront and so like the foundation
of who they are and then allowsus to build from that.
And it has been very helpful andI feel people.
Connect further or moreimmediate when you give them the
opportunity to express who theyare within those.
(04:17):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
It's like when you're going tosee a band and you want to know
what kind of music do they play?
What genre are they?
This is getting that similarinformation because it's like do
I want to stick around for thenext band?
What genre are they?
Are they shoegaze?
I'm really into shoegaze, but Idon't know, black metal, I might
want to split, situating thesethings in these different genres
(04:40):
is so helpful.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
A 100 percent and it gives us agood look at you.
I feel like it's like likepulling back at the curtain,
especially because as arelationship or as a
relationship as it directstowards the person relationship
style and all of that, becauseyou consider yourself a
relationship anarchist, correct?
I do.
Yeah.
So let's clarify that a littlebit for me, please.
(05:02):
Yeah, absolutely.
As you'll see from tattooed onmy palm, I have a thing for
anarchy and for me, anarchyisn't this edgelord rejecting
authority just because it'sauthority, sort of chaos and
nonsense kind of thing.
Instead, I see anarchy as Arejection of unfounded
(05:23):
authority.
It's a doing not what you'retold, but doing what you feel is
right.
And listening to crediblesources and supposed authorities
that can help you inform andshape what you believe is right,
but never just following alongwith an authority because it's
an authority and relationshipanarchy is just applying that to
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our relationships.
Is there an official authorityin our culture on relationships?
There are experts, but there areno official rules, but there are
unofficial unspoken rules thatare taught to us through the
stories that we are taught askids, through the dreams we're
supposed to have, through themovies we watch about how our
relationships are supposed togo.
Yeah, order of events, thenumber of people that are
(06:06):
supposed to be involved, thekind of people that are supposed
to be involved, the sorts ofthings you're supposed to do,
the sorts of feelings you'resupposed to have.
And once you deconstruct that,and you realize, oh, no, you can
customize your relationships,you can build them to fit the
people actually involved.
Rather than bending the peoplearound to fit what a
relationship is supposed to be.
(06:26):
To me, that's relationshipanarchy and my shift.
In my life from a more standardrelationship practice into the
relationship.
Anarchist framework is one ofthe most freeing shifts I have
ever made.
I know.
I feel like there's so many morepeople that could benefit from
really taking a look and it'sdifficult because these
relationship norms have been sodrilled ingrained into people's
(06:51):
heads.
It's almost become like our justtemplate.
This is what has to happen.
This is what we've seen and thisis what we do.
And there is no like free fromartistry.
It's just, this is it.
And this is what you follow.
Yeah.
People are told that they don'tget to decide.
What their relations look likethey're told that it must be
this way and it must be this waybecause it's successful But then
we turn around and look at thedata of the success of those
(07:12):
relationships and we go wait aminute These this data is it's
not supporting your claim.
Yeah, like even a little bitYeah, we I mean they're like The
relationship norms are likescripts, and we're told that we
have to hit every note in orderto play that piece.
And I prefer to go off script,and in fact, I prefer to take
that script and instead oftreating it as some thing handed
(07:34):
down by the geniuses that we'reall supposed to play and conform
to, I treat it as a jazz chart.
It's a starting point that I canthen riff off of, and take what
I like and leave the rest, andthen improvise and express.
That's a beautiful thing.
Absolutely.
Yeah, I love that.
So when do you think you came tothis realization in your life?
At what point where you're like,fuck this.
This is who I am.
This is what I'm being.
(07:55):
I'm really curious because Ifeel like that takes a lot of
strength to realize that aboutyourself.
Yeah.
Thank you.
It's been a gradual process, solike when you asked me about
like where I am on the GSRDlandscape, I gave you like a
million words, like non binary,transgender, feminine sophically
oriented, aromantic, asexualrelationship, anarchist, like
(08:16):
that's a mouthful.
And I can say each one of thosecame at a different time in my
life.
That's an accumulation ofrealizations that have also
informed each other.
And I'm not done.
That's my answer.
If y'all interview me next year,I might give you a different
list because these things,they're not boxes we put
(08:36):
ourselves in.
They're lenses that we see theworld through.
And sometimes our prescriptionschange.
So who knows what I'm going tobe in the future, but like the
order there, I think I firstfigured out there's a difference
between knowing and knowing,like knowing your gut that you.
that you are a certain way, butit takes a while for you to
accept that with the rest ofyourself, I would say I accepted
(09:00):
myself as non monogamous first.
Okay.
Non monogamy came first.
That was probably 2007.
I was teaching polyamoryworkshops at anarchist bookshops
in Columbus, Ohio back then, soit was long time.
I haven't been like consistentlynon monogamous that whole time,
(09:20):
but it's been like a prettyreliable thread.
I would say after that, Istarted exploring kink, but not
so much formally.
I would say I was reallyinvolved in kink, but not like
BDSM community.
Then I leaned into queerness.
And there it was, I figured outI was trans first.
That got the ball rolling.
(09:41):
Once you go through a gendertransition, you can't help but
deconstruct your sexuality.
Sure.
Part of that process.
And that's when I realized, ohI'm asexual and there it was
aromantic.
And then realizing more aboutwhat those words meant to me, I
started including that qualifiedat the beginning, sapphically
(10:02):
oriented, asexual, aromantic.
And what I mean by that is.
Look, I don't like sexualattraction toward other persons,
romantic attraction toward otherpersons.
It's not part of how I movethrough the world.
It's not part of how Iexperience myself, but I'm still
attracted to people in otherways.
And I tend to be attracted tofemininity and women.
(10:23):
That's why I say that I'msapphically oriented because I
still do in certain directions,but I wouldn't describe it as
sexual romantic.
So I think.
That's and then along that wholestretch of clarifying that stuff
I just said is when I did mydeep dive into kink and BDSM
form of alternate exploration ofintimacy and embodiment and even
(10:47):
partnership.
Yeah, it's been a long evolvingprocess.
It is a long and evolvingprocess.
And I hope it continues for therest of my life.
If I'm at like full, completeself understanding now at the
age of 40, I peak too soon.
I want to figure out more shitabout myself every year.
(11:07):
So to, to our viewers orlisteners that don't necessarily
know what asexuality means canwe just go back and break down
just like the simplest of termsof asexuality and then and then
again, romanticism as well.
Yes, exactly.
Thank you.
Yeah, please.
Absolutely.
So asexuality is.
(11:30):
It's an orientation, just likeheterosexuality, just like
homosexuality, bisexuality,pansexuality.
It's one of those.
And the name is a little bitmisleading, because A, the
prefix means no or none.
So it makes it sound like nosex.
Yeah.
It's for some people it's not,but that's not the best way to
(11:51):
think about it.
A better way to think about itis as I mentioned in my
description earlier, someone whoexperiences little to no sexual
attraction toward other persons,right?
So if the way you understandyourself and the way you
understand how you move throughthe world and relate to other
people, If thinking of yourselfthrough this lens of asexuality
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as someone who experienceslittle to no sexual attraction
toward other persons, if thathelps you make sense of all
that, then you're asexual.
That's all there is to it,right?
And it's a spectrum, becausethat phrase, little to no sexual
attraction toward other persons,there's gray area there, and
there's fluidity there.
So a lot of times people talknot just about asexuality.
But they'll talk about the wholeasexual spectrum.
(12:35):
Yeah.
Pretty broad place.
Yeah.
That's like the, there's aninfinite amount of numbers
between zero and one.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And what I think is reallyinteresting about it is.
You know how we think of, wealready do think of sexuality
oftentimes as on a spectrum, andwe might think there's like
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being fully straight over here,being fully gay over here, and
then all that stuff in themiddle.
And someone might wonder whereis asexuality on that?
The answer is it's another line.
It's another dimension on that.
So it turns it from a line intoa grid.
So now we're thinking in threedimensions.
When I say that I'm asexual.
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I'm still attracted to people,but it's not a sexual
attraction.
And I don't think that's adeficit.
It's not a struggle for me.
It's just my expression ofmyself, including my full.
Realized sexual expressiondoesn't involve sexual
attraction toward other persons.
(13:40):
I love powerful conversations.
So then you are some of the, youdon't, you, as you say, you
don't necessarily experience asexual attraction.
Whenever you do experienceattraction, this is going to be
a big question.
And if you're comfortableanswering it, then great.
How do you define theattractions that you experience
to others?
(14:01):
Yeah, so there's this modelthat's talked about in
asexuality informed sexology,which should be all of it, but
isn't all of it yet.
A lot of the field is stillplaying catch up, but it's
called the split attractionmodel.
And what the split attractionmodel does is it divides our
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notion of attraction up intodifferent flavors.
A lot of times, when we saywe're attracted to someone, we
treat it like that's just, it'sone, one thing.
It's just attraction, right?
And it's romantic and sexual andeverything thrown in.
And if you're attracted tosomeone, it's you want them to
be your best friend and you wantto have sex with them and spend
all your time with them andprobably you're eventually going
(14:42):
to bicker with them and hatethem.
But, it's not Laughter.
But we can divide it up.
So there's to take an easy one,divide sexual attraction from
romantic attraction or divideboth of those from emotional
attraction.
So there might be someone whoyou're really emotionally
attracted to.
You feel safe.
You feel comfortable with them.
(15:03):
You're drawn to them.
You want to be in theirpresence.
You don't want to fuck them.
Yeah.
You just don't feel that wayabout them.
Or maybe there's someone wholike you really enjoy going on
dates with.
But the idea of being sexuallyintimate with them, just, it
doesn't appeal to you.
Or to flip it around, one that'sperhaps relatable to a broader
section of the population.
(15:25):
Think about people you want tohave sex with, but you're not
attracted to romantically.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's the split attractionmodel, right?
Okay.
You can divide it up.
There's sexual attraction.
There's romantic attraction,emotional, spiritual.
Creative attraction.
Sometimes you're like, I want tocollaborate with you and I want
to write music.
That's a form of attraction.
There's aesthetic attraction,right?
(15:45):
Sometimes you just think someoneis beautiful and you love their
style and you like gazing atthem, but that doesn't mean you
want to have sex with them.
Like the sunset is beautiful.
I don't want to fuck the sun.
I could admire the beauty in it,but it doesn't mean I want to be
inside it.
Yeah.
And one of the things.
About really leaning into thissplit attraction model is, how,
(16:10):
like when you start to getattracted to someone, you might
feel like those littlebutterflies in your tummy.
That thing that we've beendescribed as what it means to
be, feeling infatuation andfeelings of love.
Now, the thing with butterfliesis there are a lot of different
species, but to the untrainedeye, butterflies is butterflies.
They all look the same, but youget an entomologist in there who
(16:31):
can start to tell the differencebetween a monarch and a
polymorpho.
They can start to say this isthis kind of butterfly.
This is that kind of butterfly.
And then your appreciation ofthe different kinds.
Becomes like it's enhancedbecause you know what you're
looking at, what you're lookingfor.
So I still feel butterflies.
It's just, I feel like bluemorpho butterflies, not Monarch
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butterflies.
Yeah.
I can differentiate between themat some point.
And yeah, you're the queen ofanalogies over here.
Fuck literally like I open Oh myGod.
I thought I liked blue,whatever, and I like monarchs, I
didn't fucking know, but no Ifucking love that analogy,
That's great.
That's very eye opening.
But that's, to me, that is sucha clear depiction that it is
(17:20):
something that can be utilizedby people that do live within
this binary system thisnarrative that's been fed to
them.
The nuclear family model who youcan say, listen, you feel an
attraction, differentiate thetype of attraction you're
feeling because the only thingthat you've been told you are
able to expand.
Is you look on your attraction.
(17:41):
It means that you'd sexualattraction.
It means that there's some formof eroticism there.
And now you either a need tofeel shame because you're
partnered up and you're notsupposed to feel that or B it
means that you're now fuckingthings up.
Exactly.
It gives us a much more richvariety of relationships.
(18:02):
Yeah.
The implications forcommunication alone are
expansive in that matter to belike, Oh wait, listen this is a
common one that we see amongstpeople that we talk to where
they're like is it okay for meto look at someone else?
What are you feeling wheneveryou look at this other person?
Are you feeling a sexualattraction to them?
Are you just admiring theiraesthetics?
Define the attraction thatyou're having so it can be then
(18:26):
converted into conversation withyour partner, with your spouse,
whatever that is in a safe wayso it doesn't have to be like,
oh, you're looking at someoneelse means that you're trying to
sleep with them.
So expanding that out.
This is one of the things that Iwant to get through to our
listeners.
So much of why it's such animportant thing to me to have
people such announced peoplesuch as yourself to be on the
show is because this is what'sneeded.
(18:48):
This is like that missing linkbetween.
Being able to communicate insuch a way that's the, what
would be in quote normal andwhat is expansive.
This level of communicationallows people to really have a
deeper layer of communicationand be able to do it in a safe
way that allows them to feelsecure in their relationships.
Absolutely.
(19:10):
Yeah, I think so.
When I'm working with likeclients of my own, right?
I always tell them, look, evenif you're monogamous, learning
about non monogamy is going tohelp you understand your own
monogamy better.
Even if you're vanilla, learningabout BDSM and the like
negotiation and consentprotocols, that's going to help
you in your own quote unquotevanilla sexual practice, right?
(19:34):
Here, even for, here's a word.
Yeah.
Allosexual people.
What?
It's an allosexual person.
You're allosexual if you're notasexual.
So if sexual attraction towardother persons is a substantial
part of how you understandyourself and move through the
world, we call you allosexual.
Allo is a prefix.
That means other.
Like other directed.
So even for allosexual folks,learning about asexuality will
(19:58):
enrich your own understandingbecause it helps you place
yourself on the actual landscaperather than on this fake limited
landscape that we thought wasthe be all and end all sexuality
before.
Yeah.
I love that sexuality used to belike, like a wizard of Oz back
in the day when it was black andwhite.
(20:18):
And then the very first time itcut to color, it was like, holy
shit, that is what I feelsexuality has become.
And I feel like there still area vast majority of people that
see in black and white andthat's okay, but I really feel
like that's part of what we'redoing in the show and talking
with you is can we get people tosee in fucking color?
(20:38):
For the first time, like there'sso many colors out there.
It is not just what are likeperceived notion of what
relationships or sexuality was.
It's the color in which we arenow.
And I just wish other peoplewould see that.
Yeah, and I love that way ofputting it, like that switch
from black and white to color.
I love that.
(20:59):
Maybe it's also like the switchthat we got from the late 80s to
the early 2000s of 2D to 3D infilm, though that one wasn't as
smooth.
That one wasn't as smooth.
I was just re watching Fridaythe 13th part three in 3D the
other day.
So bad.
Wait, is that one that you'rehaving to watch like with 3d
glasses still?
Like, how are they doing?
(21:20):
How are you doing that?
I watch it on, I watch the 2dversion, but you're, you can
tell Oh yeah.
And it's coming up and it's OhGod.
That's like all the movies.
They tried to have a resurgenceof it in the early 2000s with
like My Bloody Valentine and afew others.
I was just thinking of that damnmovie.
That's so funny.
(21:41):
Where you can watch you watchlike an axe flying at the screen
and going, Oh, I see what theywere trying to do.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Now, one thing I'll clarify ifit's all right with y'all,
because I think it's animportant thing to note about
asexual folks too, is that someof us, Have and having sex.
(22:01):
I'm so glad, I was just about toask this question.
And I was like, I don't know ifI'm overstepping by asking and
I'm so glad you're saying it.
You did not overstep.
Challenge me.
But, I feel like Leigh is theperson you can have these open
conversations with and we don'thave to worry about any
backlash.
Yes ma'am, I will absolutelychallenge you.
Okay, continue.
So some asexual folks reallydon't like sex and they're not
(22:23):
sex negative.
Some are, of course, becausepeople from all groups can be
sex negative, but some are sexaverse, right?
And you can be sex positive andbelieve that like people should
embrace their full sexuality andall that and yourself still be
averse.
to sexual contact, and I think,in fact, if we're really going
to practice a sex positiveculture, we need to validate
(22:46):
people who are themselves averseto sexual contact, right?
But then we look at the otherasexual folks who are sex
welcoming, and here's how thatworks.
Notice when I was talking aboutasexuality, I kept saying, I
kept describing it in terms ofsexual attraction.
Attraction is not the same thingas desire, which is not the same
(23:07):
thing as behavior, right?
Sometimes I wake up in themiddle of the night, I'm hungry,
I want a snack I have a desirefor food.
I go to the fridge and nothinglooks good.
I'm not attracted to any of thestuff.
So being asexual doesn't meanyou don't have a libido.
Okay.
You can be asexual and stillhave a high degree of sexual
(23:29):
desire, but you just don'texperience that attraction
toward other persons.
If that sounds frustrating.
Yes, it can be.
I was about to say Jesus varioustechniques of self love and
such.
But there's also then thedifference between sexual.
desire and sexual behavior,right?
So there's lots of reasonspeople have sex other than
(23:51):
attraction or desire.
Consider like a couple that'strying to get pregnant.
They might not really want tohave sex, but they're doing it
for another purpose.
So asexual folks sometimes willhave sex for various reasons
that don't involve attraction totheir partner at all.
(24:11):
What are some of them?
It feels good.
Have you ever stimulated thatyour genitals?
That shit's nice, right?
It feels good.
That's a reason to do it.
Another is it can be a way ofbonding with your partner.
It can be a way of expressingappreciation.
And the way I like to think ofit is by analogy with massages.
(24:32):
So when I'm in a relationshipwith someone, I like to give
them massages because it makesthem feel good, and it makes me
feel good to know that I'mmaking them feel good.
And it's also a way of spendingquality time.
It's a way of being intentionalabout our contact.
And I also like to receivemassages.
(24:52):
Because of all that and alsobecause it just feels good.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I've never been out at a barand looked at someone and
thought, damn, I want to massagethat girl.
It's just never popped in myhead.
Yeah.
And so for me, just tell thatwhole story again, take out the
word massage and put in the wordfuck.
(25:14):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I've never looked at someone andthought, Oh, I need to have sex
with that person.
But in the context of arelationship, it's a way of
expressing, it's a way ofexpressing affection.
It's a way of bonding.
It's a way of feeling goodtogether.
It's important though, that wehave the conversation so they
(25:34):
know, Hey, I'm asexual.
And like actual sexualattraction towards you is not
part of my motivation here.
Conversation for some people.
I think that's refreshing asshit.
Be nice if we could all actuallyhave those honest conversations
with people, not just sayingasexual or not, but that's such
an honest conversation to havewith someone and to know how you
(25:57):
feel about that.
That's refreshing.
It can be scary too.
Because, asexuality is like oneof the new kids on the block in
the whole discussion oforientation, just like people
you say bisexuality isn't real,it's just, it's bad.
People still say that, but itwas really bad, like back in the
nineties, if you're a girl andyou're bisexual, you're actually
just.
straight girl looking forattention.
(26:18):
If you're a bisexual, you'reactually just gay and in denial,
but no one's really by peoplesay that it's asexual people
now, so even though we make upbetween 1.
5 to 2 percent of thepopulation, according to current
research, people don't believewe exist.
So when I'm starting to talk tosomeone and I tell them, yeah,
I'm ace.
Which is a common shorthand forasexual.
(26:41):
I gotta tell them 99 percent ofthe time, I gotta have this
conversation we're having rightnow with them, just to get them
up to speed.
Got it.
Yeah, and it would be sobeautiful if we were in a
culture where sex educationactually taught people about
this stuff, so that dating medidn't come with A bookshelf
worth of homework.
Yeah, that's, that's somethingthat we talk about often is the
(27:02):
current, like the currentlandscape of sex education and
the fact that we're not teachingabout like multiple sexualities,
even it's so limited.
We just had.
So even the seminar that I wason last weekend, where, which
was led by Dr.
Joe court, where he was talkingabout a lot of this, where he
was saying.
You take a group of young boysinto a room to do sex education
(27:26):
for them.
And you're talking about wetdreams and masturbation.
You're talking about all thesethings.
And then you turn around and youtalk to the group of girls that
are in there.
And first of all, I'm going,okay sex education is still at
this point, completely binary,100%.
And then on top of that, you'reteaching the boys about their
sexuality.
And you're teaching the girlsabout.
maintenance, biologicalmaintenance at the, like the
(27:47):
most, it's being like, here'swhat a period is and here's how
to, here's how to cope with it.
Yeah.
And then we're going, this is sofucked across the entire
landscape that you, they don'teven have the opportunity to get
in some of the more of the indepth conversations about what
is sexuality and is it static oris it fluid?
What does it mean to beattracted to someone?
(28:08):
And what are these things?
Entail.
And so it's been thisfrustrating existence to see.
So I can't even imagine how youfeel as someone who is every
time I fucking go and have aconversation with someone, I
have to explain and pointed afucking pile of books and say,
read this so you can even enterin the conversation that I want
(28:28):
to have.
It's you need to walk aroundwith a pamphlet yeah, here you
go, read this.
And then if this even remotelyinterests you, then come find me
later.
Yeah.
It's so I joke with my friendssometimes.
As a gender expansive, asexual,aromantic relationship
anarchist, who's also Kinky AF.
I moved to a small desert town.
(28:51):
My prospects here, let me telly'all this is a, I live in a
literal desert.
Finding someone who aligns withall of those things can be
really tricky.
But, the thing is, I know myselfand I know what I'm looking for.
And why would I compromise?
Why would I pretend to besomething I'm not?
(29:11):
Just to settle in arelationship.
That's not going to go well.
And when I do find people whomesh, and I have people, it's
just they're scattered around,when we mesh.
And it's if your onlyconversation is, Hey, do you
like sex?
I like sex.
Do you have a penis?
I have a penis.
Do you have a vagina?
I have a vagina.
Let's do it.
(29:31):
There's not going to be a lot ofactual integration and like
reflective compatibility, right?
But when you can really locateyourself on that GSRD landscape
and have that conversation andmeet someone, it's you're like,
The all the puzzle piecesinterlocking at once and that
can be a really beautiful anddeep connection and that's
(29:52):
available to everyone, right?
It's not, I'm not saying withthe penis vagina joke that like
straight people don't get it.
It's just it's about not how youidentify or who you're attracted
to, but it's about the depth ofunderstanding and how much of
that engagement and conversationyou're willing to let yourself
(30:12):
explore.
Yes, absolutely.
That's 1 of our big points thatwe try to make to people.
Whatever we're saying, theseconversations are things that
should be had early on.
We have this conversation withour daughter.
We do, we tell her all the time,like who you like, be who you
are.
Like, don't be afraid to explorewhat that might mean for you.
(30:33):
But she comes to us withconversations all the time.
And it's so cute to see a 10year old so confused.
And I'd like to tell her that itgets better.
I, and I loved what you saidearlier.
Like you're not in a box.
This is our, your, these areyour lenses for right now.
And I feel like her lenseschange daily.
But I, but, and that's fine.
And I love one.
(30:54):
I love the fact that she comesto us and we all talk about this
and we give her that safe space,but it's so interesting to see
someone as young as 10 years oldto go through all of these
different concepts of who andwhat and when and where she
feels like she wants to exploreherself with, and.
I love that she has thatopportunity and I just think
(31:16):
it's like crazy and sad and alsobeautiful all at the same time
that there are people in theirthirties just exploring this,
just figuring the sameconversation with 10 year olds
as we are with 40, 50 and 60year olds.
It's just, it's crazy to me andI thought, and I find it so
liberating for these youngerindividuals to and we think that
the information is not outthere, but it is when I have her
(31:38):
friends come to me and tell methat.
I feel like I'm lesbian.
I feel that this is what I want,but I could never tell my
parents that like we are givingour daughter to the safe space.
And I do feel like things areslightly starting to change.
And I think that people arestarting to have this
understanding, but yeah, it'scrazy to me that I hear the same
(31:59):
conversations from 10 year oldsas we do from 50 year olds.
Yeah.
It's so it's interesting.
We're seeing a real shift, and Ithink there's this, regardless
of generation, of course, it'smore common amongst younger
folks, but it's tricklingupward.
There is this.
Culture wide deconstruction ofsexuality.
(32:20):
Yes.
And it's been an ongoing processpeople have always been
deconstructing sexuality.
But I think it's accelerating.
And I think it's accelerating inpart because people are more
connected now than they havebeen before.
They're able to find otherpeople like them.
Like me growing up in ruralPennsylvania, surrounded by no
one like me.
There was no way I ever wouldhave known that I was any of the
(32:42):
things I listed earlier.
Cause I had no precedent.
I had no example.
I had no one to talk to whocould talk back to me about
having a similar experience.
And now I get on the internetwithin five seconds, I can find
someone who is like my clone.
Yeah.
And then we can relate and learnfrom each other.
And there's this idea thatsomehow, TikTok's making the
(33:04):
kids all gay or something likethat, or like asexuality is just
a Tumblr trend from people whowant to feel oppressed.
So they invented a new label sothat they count as queer based
on just like not having sex.
It's nonsense, right?
That's a very cynical anduninformed approach instead.
(33:27):
These discussions that we'rehaving in online communities
that bring people togetherwithout the artificial barriers
of like geography brings themtogether under shared
experience.
So they can start developing alanguage of shared identity and
understanding, and that's weshould absolutely embrace.
That is a wonderful thing.
Yes it's difficult to look atstuff like this and say why are
(33:51):
there people that are saying,no, we shouldn't do this?
It goes back to the whole whatwas that?
The, like the, I don't rememberthe name of the study or the
project or whatever it was,whenever it became okay to be
left handed and it was insteadof being like, okay here they
all come out of the woodwork.
Of course, there's a lot of us.
We always existed.
We were just told it's not okay.
And now that there's a platformin which to get this out, you
(34:14):
would even get your ownscissors.
I still don't.
You don't even get your ownscissors.
You're left handed.
I am absolutely left handed.
So here's the thing about lefthandedness, right?
So in like 1906, about three anda half percent of the population
(34:36):
was identified as left handed.
And then that number graduallyincreases.
And plateaus off around 1960 ataround 12 percent and it's
stayed there ever since and youcan imagine, this is the point
you were just making peoplebeing like, oh, it's those
newspapers.
The kids are reading today.
They're making them all lefthanded.
Yeah, it's no, we stoppedbeating them, we stopped behind
(34:58):
their left hand behind theirback, forcing them to use their
rights.
So it's not that only three anda half percent of people were
left handed.
It's that three and a halfpercent of people were allowed
to be left handed and the restof that 12 percent weren't.
Yes.
But even now you might thinkwe've reached total equality for
left handed people, but as a,like an educator, when I write
(35:20):
on a chalkboard, I wear thatshit.
Yeah.
The swipey card at Target orsomething like, I love making
him pay out.
I love making him pay outbecause he has to get all
awkward and move it over.
And I'm like, this is just notmeant for you, baby.
And as people, we know that welive in a right handed world.
(35:41):
Who doesn't know that is mostright handed people to come
across like my favorite point.
This is look listen.
And now he goes on his tangentas a cisgendered heterosexual
male.
This is the only connection thatI have to any world outside of
my own.
(36:01):
And I, and so I cling to itbecause I could never ever.
Hope to understand what otherpeople have to go through, but I
try to on some level empathize.
And if this is all I have, thenI'm going to fucking ride that
wave as long as I can.
I'm going to do you solid.
As someone who has authoritywithin the queer community, as
(36:23):
someone who calls the shots,we're going to change the
acronym to S.
R.
E.
A.
L.
From here on out, it is l.
G.
B.
T.
K.
A.
Plus.
For Lesbians, Lefties, Welcometo the community, my friends! I
love it! One of us! Oh, Iappreciate that.
(36:52):
Of course.
I do.
Then, I don't know.
Oh my God.
And in these topics the ofasexuality and going through all
this, I have a very importantquestion for you.
And this comes to me fromconversations that I've had with
people about how things justlook right now.
And this is I hate to.
(37:12):
Say the question, but it I feellike it's necessary and it's
something along the lines of Howdo you respond to someone that
says that asexuality is aportion of is a mental illness?
Yeah, that's a good questionIt's an important question and
it's one that I understand whereit comes from, right?
Because you might think someonewho is mentally ill or deeply
(37:35):
traumatized might become sexaverse and given that like
Asexuality is not normalized Inpopular sexual discussions, it
seems a little alien.
So you might think, yeah, that'sa defect.
It's an acquired defect, theresult of mental illness or some
kind of wound, right?
I get that, but it's not true.
And here's why it's not true.
(37:57):
So we do have research thatpretty clearly shows that sexual
orientation is not connected to.
any sort of trauma in any way.
Nothing, no experience that yougo through is going to make you
gay, going to make you straight,going to make you ace, going to
make you buy any of thesethings.
What trauma, mental illness andthe like can do, though, is it
(38:20):
can affect the way that youidentify, right?
So think about this differencebetween your orientation, which
is who you're actually attractedto, and your sexual identity,
which is how you interpret that.
How you yourself would describeit.
So someone who's say gay, butstill not accepting that about
(38:42):
themselves, they have anincongruent sexual orientation
and identity, right?
They're gay, but they interpretthemselves as a straight person.
Someone who is reallytraumatized by say abusively
religious upbringing might begay, but unable to accept that
(39:02):
about themselves.
Have that mismatch, right?
And there, the religious traumais not affecting the
orientation, but it is affectingthe identity and what we see is
that those effects of any ofthese factors, they're going to
(39:23):
typically make ourinterpretation of our
identities.
More conservative, not in apolitical sense, but in the like
sense of being more restrictedrather than more open, you're
very rarely you're going to seesomeone who's actually gay, but
identifies as straight becauseof trauma more often than you're
going to see the inverseadverse.
Okay.
Yeah.
(39:43):
Okay.
Identifies as gay because oftrauma or whatever.
That's far less frequent.
Got it.
Asexuality.
One, we just, yeah.
We have no data that it is anexception to this to say that it
is just conjecture, right?
If you got data on it, I'd loveto see it.
Exactly.
Now, our trauma can put upblocks to intimacy, right?
(40:10):
But that's having.
Difficulty expressing andreceiving intimacy because of
mental illness or trauma isdifferent from asexuality.
Asexuality is sexual attractiontoward other persons doesn't,
is, doesn't play a part in howyou understand how you relate to
yourself and others.
In fact asect.
(40:31):
The American Association forSexuality Educators, Counselors,
and Therapists, the kind ofoverarching ruling organization
in the US for all of thoseoccupations declared a few years
ago that no ASEC certifiedtherapist or practitioner is
allowed to pathologizeasexuality and treat it as a
(40:53):
condition to be cured.
We don't do that.
So I do have one question andthis is just a personal question
for myself.
Because I remember growing up, Iactually labeled myself as
asexual because I struggled withhaving general attraction for
either gender.
(41:13):
I always struggled with that andit was, and so I got a little
bit older and I started divingfurther in that I then said,
maybe I am more pansexual than Iam asexual.
But I'm curious, what is thedifference between the two then?
Between pansexual andintersexual.
Asexual, yes.
Ooh.
(41:33):
And I'm sorry if I'm sorry if Imisunderstood it earlier.
No.
But I am wanting my ownclarification, but between two,
I, I wanna hear this.
'cause I'm like, to me, I'm likethe all or nothing.
I just, I don't, but I wanna, Idon't even hear an expert on
this.
I, yeah.
I love this question, and ifit's cool, y'all, I'm gonna loop
the answer into it.
To a second answer to thequestion y'all asked about
(41:55):
mental illness stuff.
Yes.
Because there's a story to tellhere about all of this.
Okay.
Autism.
Autism is not a mental illness.
It's a natural variation inhuman experience.
Autistic folks are more likelyto be queer.
Okay.
About 70 percent of Autisticfolks identify as non
heterosexual, whereas in thegeneral population, 70 percent
(42:17):
of people identify asheterosexual.
Autistic folks are up to threeto four times more likely to
identify as trans or genderexpansive and about eight times
more likely to identify asasexual.
This might be where some peopleget the connection between
asexuality and mental illness.
Because they're like, they'rethinking of autism in this
(42:41):
medicalized model, like it'ssomehow a disease or something,
it's a condition to be cured butit's not.
Now, why might it be thatautistic folks are more likely
to identify as asexual?
Because sexuality is sociallyconstructed and our norms of
engagement are sociallyconstructed and autistic
(43:03):
persons, like myself, sometimesrelate to those norms in
different ways.
So there's a lot more reflectiontypically on sexuality and the
terms we use to understandourselves and maybe a bit more
of a desire for clarity andprecision in our language.
So we, we get that byintroducing more nuanced
(43:24):
language.
Then there's.
There's, you can continuetelling that story.
Now, to tie it into yourquestion about pansexuality,
because, hey, get this, I'masexual, but sometimes I'll call
myself pansexual instead.
Here's why.
I don't know what sex is, right?
(43:46):
And in part because As anautistic person, I want clarity.
I want conditions.
I want understanding.
I'm not gonna anytime anyoneasks me like, where was the last
time you had sex?
My answer is always, what do youmean by sex?
Define it for me and then I cananswer because I don't know.
It's a really messy, murkyconcept and there's a lot of
(44:08):
things that it could mean.
Sometimes depending on who I'mtalking to I'll say that I'm
asexual because when thedominant notion of sex that I
have a grasp on I have a, Iunderstand that most people mean
my sex.
I don't experience that kind ofattraction.
Yeah, this broader notion ofsex.
I've had partnerships that havelasted years where we have never
(44:28):
had genital.
Contact, but we've beenintimate.
It's just that intimacy involvesrope and knives and blow torches
and not orgasms, but subspaceand maybe that counts.
I don't know if it does ordoesn't, but if that does, then
(44:51):
I'd call myself pansexual, witha preference for feminine
presenting folks.
My autistic need for clarity onthings, which again, is not a
disorder.
It's not a deficit.
It's not a mental illness.
It's just I have a differentneurotype.
And this brain works leads me tonot know what sex is with any
(45:15):
sort of satisfaction.
So I typically just go with thedefinition whoever I'm talking
to has.
If they have a more conventionalunderstanding of sex, I'll speak
their language.
I'll say I'm asexual.
If they have a broader notion ofsex, that's a little more
inclusive and sexual.
Really, it's whatever lens helpsin the moment.
Yeah.
(45:35):
Okay.
If only we had a universaldefinition.
Which, for legal purposes andfor things like figuring out
what qualifies as sexual assaultand everything, it would be
really good to have one ofthose.
But it'd be really hard to getit.
Yeah.
In the same way that we try tocontinuously find some unified
theory of physics, swear.
(46:00):
Here comes the unified theory ofsex.
Yeah.
I would say, this question of amI asexual or am I pansexual?
There's no fact in the matter.
It's just it's not like you'regoing to look in at your soul
and find the little label thatgives you that clarity.
Yeah, you give them astorytelling devices in the
(46:20):
story that you're telling withyour life, which is a better
plot device, which makes moresense of the narrative.
And I can change, I think mymisunderstanding toward
asexuality before I really gotfocused into to what it.
Our studies and what it is thatwe're doing and what we aim to
achieve was that just asexualmeant that no sexual, no, and
(46:41):
not in a course, no sexual,anything happened, but that's
actually really not the case.
And so that's super interestingto dive in because we had talked
about wanting to speak with youand wanting to do this episode.
And I was talking with myclients about asexuality and
they immediately were likedoesn't that mean that they just
don't have sex at all?
I'm like.
No, that's not what that, that'snot necessarily what that means,
but it's so interesting thateven these like definitions are
(47:04):
still so misunderstood.
Yeah.
Go ahead.
I'm sorry.
I'm rambling here and thelanguage is always evolving too.
So like the language is alwaysbeing negotiated, you talk to a
different.
Asexuality educator on here andthey might tell you a different
story, right?
(47:24):
I don't, this is not the asexualgospel I'm giving y'all.
This is my perspective on it assomeone who studies it, teaches
about it and lives it, right?
Some asexual people, no sexever.
No dating, no sex, no touch, butthat's a spectrum, and like I
said before, this just takeswhat we used to think of as a
line and turns it into a gridand eventually into a cube.
(47:47):
It's just depth that everyonebenefits from understanding.
And yeah, the amount ofconversations so much, the
amount of times I've talked topeople about asexuality.
Like in big groups and at leastone person comes up to me
afterwards and we're like, Inever thought about it, but I
(48:08):
think this is me and then theywalked away with more self
understanding.
That's such a beautiful thing.
Yeah, because what happenswhenever we have a greater sense
of self understanding is we havegreater amounts of happiness.
We have less instances ofconfidence.
Yeah, everything.
If you can do anything toincrease someone's happiness and
sense of well being in theirplace within the world and fuck.
(48:29):
Yeah, rock on.
Go for it.
One fewer voice in your headtelling you that you're broken.
Yes.
God.
Fuck.
Yes.
That's going to be the captionof this episode.
Oh yeah.
That's the kind of shit thatwe're trying to put, to move
towards our move, our audiencetowards is open their eyes to
the understanding that.
(48:50):
You're not broken.
You're not fucked up.
Exactly.
And your normal is just thatit's your normal, but your
normal doesn't define yourpartners or your peers or
anybody.
Like when you sit in a group ofpeople and you listen to them
talk about their in quote normallives and you feel less than
because you don't fit into theirbox.
Yeah.
It's okay.
(49:10):
It's entirely okay to feel that.
Maybe you haven't found theexact person that you should be
talking to.
Yeah.
Be you and figure yourself outand learn that sexuality is
fluid and learn that we're notliving inside some sort of
binary system.
This isn't the fucking matrix.
We're not comprised of zeros andones.
(49:31):
Yeah, not anymore.
We're fucking breaking throughthat shit.
where it's water and we need tomove like water and we can go
back and forth and just havethis whole fluid experience and
it would be so much, we wouldall be so much better off if we
experienced love and life likethis.
Yeah.
And I forget if we talked aboutthis last time I was on here,
but the matrix, it was writtenby two trans girls.
(49:53):
Yes, it is.
The, which now the Wachowskisisters.
Yeah.
And the red pill, the fabled redpill that is like.
Taken over Reddit subcultures.
It was Estrogen.
There you go.
Is it really?
That was the metaphor.
And in the 90s, he came in a redpill, and the choice there was
(50:13):
for Neo, chose that name but wasconsistently deadnamed by the
bad guys throughout the wholefilm who refused to call him by
his affirmed name.
Mr.
Anderson?
Yeah, the choice was aboutwhether to transition or not.
Whether to stay in this fakeworld or to take the risk.
And move into reality.
(50:34):
And the red pill was startinghormone therapy.
And I just love the way thatwhole cultural narrative has
evolved.
And it's it's like people whothink Tyler Durden was the good
guy in Fight Club.
It's no.
No.
No, that's not how that works.
Yeah.
I fucking have chills from that.
I'm literally, I was like, Idon't know I like that
(50:55):
perspective.
I love that.
I want to, I now want to knowmore.
Watch it again with this lens.
You'll see it.
That's what I'm saying.
I'm like, I didn't know that.
That's crazy.
And yeah, the movie before thematrix, they directed bound with
Jennifer Tilley and GinaGershwin, super hot lesbian noir
films.
And people were all like, Howdid two men direct this hot?
(51:18):
It's because they were lesbians.
Men don't know how lesbians havesex like that.
No, no idea.
See, that's such an interestingperspective to me because we
you've had the, like the, that,like mainstream narrative about
the Wachowskis, about everythingthat they've been through and
about, there's just so much totheir, like involving with
(51:39):
terminator and with the matrixand everything else.
So it's a whole universe to evenget into that discussion.
I feel like this is a differentpodcast episode that y'all are
getting into right now.
It's like a whole differentpodcast.
Oh, we, we've been talking for awhile and we super appreciate
(52:02):
it.
In fact, we didn't even get tocover one of the topics we
wanted to.
Whenever we're talking aboutlike asexuality and kink and
building relationships on that,I guess we're just going to have
you on again.
Oh, no, dang it.
Listen, we're going to beshooting for the next time that
we see you are the next timethat we have you on the podcast
is going to be in person.
That's going to be what we wantto do.
We have some things workingbehind the scenes in which we're
(52:25):
creating some relationships withsome very great people that are
going to allow for things likethat to happen.
So we would love to extend thatinvitation to you prematurely.
Yeah.
Person podcast with us, where wediscuss some of these things.
And bring your paddles.
I love it.
Accepted.
I'll tell y'all if I'm travelingto your neck of the woods, I am
(52:46):
bringing.
My whole pop up dungeon in mybackseat, which I'll tell you
driving through border control,which I have to do when they
peek in my backseat and they seelike a folded up St.
Andrew's cross.
It's fun.
That's for, Oh my God.
It's been a pleasure as always.
(53:06):
We, you're, one of our favoriteguests to have.
So thank you very much for beingon the show today.
We're going to close it off bysaying, Oh, we really hope this
sparks some sort of deeperthought within you.
We hope this evokes some sort ofpower within you to really take
some exploration and some selfreflection.
So for another episode of comewith Casey, we are your hosts.
I'm Dr.
(53:26):
Casey Sanders and I'm CarrieSanders.
We'll see you next time.
Welcome back to another episodeof come with Casey.
We are your cohost.
I'm Dr.
Casey Sanders and I'm CarrieSanders and we are pleased.
We are ecstatic.
We are in love.
We are so fucking happy towelcome back our good friend and
one of the most highly educatedand respectable people that we
(00:21):
have ever met.
We want to welcome back to theshow, this lay David Elliott
Cray, PhD, by the way, welcomeback.
Hey everybody.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
This is really exciting.
It's been a long time since wechatted and it's so great to see
you both.
I know you've become my likesecret mentor, which I haven't
even told you this, but I'm likeinfatuated and I'm like, they
(00:43):
are totally my mentor and thisis how it is and they don't know
it, but this is just how it'sgoing to be and maybe after you
spanked me, I'm not exactlysure, but I know that's what I'm
like.
Are we allowed to reveal thatinformation?
I think so.
We can edit it out later.
It's fine.
You're the master of edits.
Let's say we, we got consent.
If you ever listened to ourepisode it was season two that
(01:04):
we did it.
We went to a sex party.
Yes.
And that was, we had discussed.
You going and experiencingimpact play for the first time.
Yes.
And it was just an honor.
Reveal.
It was our good friend here.
That was the person behind thepaddle.
And that was a lot more than apaddle too.
That was everything.
(01:25):
Oh, the after pictures weregreat too.
Black and bruised.
But so it's been a year since welast.
Talked and we had such a goodtime chatting with you last
time.
And after the show, we hadpeople that were just, pouring
(01:46):
in their love of being like,wow, this was really eyeopening
for me.
This was done in such like anexquisite way.
So we were very pleased withthat.
And we just want to give ourpersonal gratitude to you for
providing us with such aplethora of information.
Well, gratitude accepted andreciprocated, but, we invited
you back for a very specificreason.
(02:07):
And we've discussed this offcamera and we're going to bring
it in today.
We have.
Witnessed over the past and ourexperience, probably the past
year or two this changinglandscape, this transitional
landscape of sexuality and ofall of the seminars and meetings
and things that we've attended,we've had a lot of eye opening
conversations in regards tothings like sexual fluidity and
(02:31):
what it means to be a variousorientations and one of the ones
that we landed on was asexuality.
And you yourself, I believe,before we go into this, I want
to take a second to, to discusswhat we have talked about on our
Instagram page and that is GSRD.
If you haven't heard of thatstands for gender, sexuality and
relationship diversity.
(02:51):
I would love to be able to sayhere's who it was coined by and
here's the evolution of it.
But the important part about itis it's a really good way to get
to.
Know someone in terms of theirinterests, orientation, and what
they're really looking for interms of relationships.
So I wanted to pose thatquestion to you first.
Would you mind sharing us withyour your GSRD with us?
Absolutely.
(03:13):
So in terms of my gendersexuality and relationship
diversity, where I fit on thatwhole landscape.
So I am a non binary transgenderfeminine person.
I am.
a sapphically oriented,aromantic, asexual relationship
anarchist.
(03:33):
And that term GSRD coined by Dr.
Meg John Barker to myunderstanding and knowledge.
Okay.
See, there you go.
Already learned.
That's like the most punk rockanswer I ever heard.
Thank you for, so we want to, wego.
A lot of that, and that's been aterm that's been closer to us
because now we're able to sitdown with people whenever we
first meet them and say, if weask that consensually ask this
(03:55):
question, it provides us withwhat I feel is like this whole
bit of information right upfront and so like the foundation
of who they are and then allowsus to build from that.
And it has been very helpful andI feel people.
Connect further or moreimmediate when you give them the
opportunity to express who theyare within those.
(04:17):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
It's like when you're going tosee a band and you want to know
what kind of music do they play?
What genre are they?
This is getting that similarinformation because it's like do
I want to stick around for thenext band?
What genre are they?
Are they shoegaze?
I'm really into shoegaze, but Idon't know, black metal, I might
want to split, situating thesethings in these different genres
(04:40):
is so helpful.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
A 100 percent and it gives us agood look at you.
I feel like it's like likepulling back at the curtain,
especially because as arelationship or as a
relationship as it directstowards the person relationship
style and all of that, becauseyou consider yourself a
relationship anarchist, correct?
I do.
Yeah.
So let's clarify that a littlebit for me, please.
(05:02):
Yeah, absolutely.
As you'll see from tattooed onmy palm, I have a thing for
anarchy and for me, anarchyisn't this edgelord rejecting
authority just because it'sauthority, sort of chaos and
nonsense kind of thing.
Instead, I see anarchy as Arejection of unfounded
(05:23):
authority.
It's a doing not what you'retold, but doing what you feel is
right.
And listening to crediblesources and supposed authorities
that can help you inform andshape what you believe is right,
but never just following alongwith an authority because it's
an authority and relationshipanarchy is just applying that to
(05:44):
our relationships.
Is there an official authorityin our culture on relationships?
There are experts, but there areno official rules, but there are
unofficial unspoken rules thatare taught to us through the
stories that we are taught askids, through the dreams we're
supposed to have, through themovies we watch about how our
relationships are supposed togo.
Yeah, order of events, thenumber of people that are
(06:06):
supposed to be involved, thekind of people that are supposed
to be involved, the sorts ofthings you're supposed to do,
the sorts of feelings you'resupposed to have.
And once you deconstruct that,and you realize, oh, no, you can
customize your relationships,you can build them to fit the
people actually involved.
Rather than bending the peoplearound to fit what a
relationship is supposed to be.
(06:26):
To me, that's relationshipanarchy and my shift.
In my life from a more standardrelationship practice into the
relationship.
Anarchist framework is one ofthe most freeing shifts I have
ever made.
I know.
I feel like there's so many morepeople that could benefit from
really taking a look and it'sdifficult because these
relationship norms have been sodrilled ingrained into people's
(06:51):
heads.
It's almost become like our justtemplate.
This is what has to happen.
This is what we've seen and thisis what we do.
And there is no like free fromartistry.
It's just, this is it.
And this is what you follow.
Yeah.
People are told that they don'tget to decide.
What their relations look likethey're told that it must be
this way and it must be this waybecause it's successful But then
we turn around and look at thedata of the success of those
(07:12):
relationships and we go wait aminute These this data is it's
not supporting your claim.
Yeah, like even a little bitYeah, we I mean they're like The
relationship norms are likescripts, and we're told that we
have to hit every note in orderto play that piece.
And I prefer to go off script,and in fact, I prefer to take
that script and instead oftreating it as some thing handed
(07:34):
down by the geniuses that we'reall supposed to play and conform
to, I treat it as a jazz chart.
It's a starting point that I canthen riff off of, and take what
I like and leave the rest, andthen improvise and express.
That's a beautiful thing.
Absolutely.
Yeah, I love that.
So when do you think you came tothis realization in your life?
At what point where you're like,fuck this.
This is who I am.
This is what I'm being.
(07:55):
I'm really curious because Ifeel like that takes a lot of
strength to realize that aboutyourself.
Yeah.
Thank you.
It's been a gradual process, solike when you asked me about
like where I am on the GSRDlandscape, I gave you like a
million words, like non binary,transgender, feminine sophically
oriented, aromantic, asexualrelationship, anarchist, like
(08:16):
that's a mouthful.
And I can say each one of thosecame at a different time in my
life.
That's an accumulation ofrealizations that have also
informed each other.
And I'm not done.
That's my answer.
If y'all interview me next year,I might give you a different
list because these things,they're not boxes we put
(08:36):
ourselves in.
They're lenses that we see theworld through.
And sometimes our prescriptionschange.
So who knows what I'm going tobe in the future, but like the
order there, I think I firstfigured out there's a difference
between knowing and knowing,like knowing your gut that you.
that you are a certain way, butit takes a while for you to
accept that with the rest ofyourself, I would say I accepted
(09:00):
myself as non monogamous first.
Okay.
Non monogamy came first.
That was probably 2007.
I was teaching polyamoryworkshops at anarchist bookshops
in Columbus, Ohio back then, soit was long time.
I haven't been like consistentlynon monogamous that whole time,
(09:20):
but it's been like a prettyreliable thread.
I would say after that, Istarted exploring kink, but not
so much formally.
I would say I was reallyinvolved in kink, but not like
BDSM community.
Then I leaned into queerness.
And there it was, I figured outI was trans first.
That got the ball rolling.
(09:41):
Once you go through a gendertransition, you can't help but
deconstruct your sexuality.
Sure.
Part of that process.
And that's when I realized, ohI'm asexual and there it was
aromantic.
And then realizing more aboutwhat those words meant to me, I
started including that qualifiedat the beginning, sapphically
(10:02):
oriented, asexual, aromantic.
And what I mean by that is.
Look, I don't like sexualattraction toward other persons,
romantic attraction toward otherpersons.
It's not part of how I movethrough the world.
It's not part of how Iexperience myself, but I'm still
attracted to people in otherways.
And I tend to be attracted tofemininity and women.
(10:23):
That's why I say that I'msapphically oriented because I
still do in certain directions,but I wouldn't describe it as
sexual romantic.
So I think.
That's and then along that wholestretch of clarifying that stuff
I just said is when I did mydeep dive into kink and BDSM
form of alternate exploration ofintimacy and embodiment and even
(10:47):
partnership.
Yeah, it's been a long evolvingprocess.
It is a long and evolvingprocess.
And I hope it continues for therest of my life.
If I'm at like full, completeself understanding now at the
age of 40, I peak too soon.
I want to figure out more shitabout myself every year.
(11:07):
So to, to our viewers orlisteners that don't necessarily
know what asexuality means canwe just go back and break down
just like the simplest of termsof asexuality and then and then
again, romanticism as well.
Yes, exactly.
Thank you.
Yeah, please.
Absolutely.
So asexuality is.
(11:30):
It's an orientation, just likeheterosexuality, just like
homosexuality, bisexuality,pansexuality.
It's one of those.
And the name is a little bitmisleading, because A, the
prefix means no or none.
So it makes it sound like nosex.
Yeah.
It's for some people it's not,but that's not the best way to
(11:51):
think about it.
A better way to think about itis as I mentioned in my
description earlier, someone whoexperiences little to no sexual
attraction toward other persons,right?
So if the way you understandyourself and the way you
understand how you move throughthe world and relate to other
people, If thinking of yourselfthrough this lens of asexuality
(12:13):
as someone who experienceslittle to no sexual attraction
toward other persons, if thathelps you make sense of all
that, then you're asexual.
That's all there is to it,right?
And it's a spectrum, becausethat phrase, little to no sexual
attraction toward other persons,there's gray area there, and
there's fluidity there.
So a lot of times people talknot just about asexuality.
But they'll talk about the wholeasexual spectrum.
(12:35):
Yeah.
Pretty broad place.
Yeah.
That's like the, there's aninfinite amount of numbers
between zero and one.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And what I think is reallyinteresting about it is.
You know how we think of, wealready do think of sexuality
oftentimes as on a spectrum, andwe might think there's like
(12:56):
being fully straight over here,being fully gay over here, and
then all that stuff in themiddle.
And someone might wonder whereis asexuality on that?
The answer is it's another line.
It's another dimension on that.
So it turns it from a line intoa grid.
So now we're thinking in threedimensions.
When I say that I'm asexual.
(13:18):
I'm still attracted to people,but it's not a sexual
attraction.
And I don't think that's adeficit.
It's not a struggle for me.
It's just my expression ofmyself, including my full.
Realized sexual expressiondoesn't involve sexual
attraction toward other persons.
(13:40):
I love powerful conversations.
So then you are some of the, youdon't, you, as you say, you
don't necessarily experience asexual attraction.
Whenever you do experienceattraction, this is going to be
a big question.
And if you're comfortableanswering it, then great.
How do you define theattractions that you experience
to others?
(14:01):
Yeah, so there's this modelthat's talked about in
asexuality informed sexology,which should be all of it, but
isn't all of it yet.
A lot of the field is stillplaying catch up, but it's
called the split attractionmodel.
And what the split attractionmodel does is it divides our
(14:21):
notion of attraction up intodifferent flavors.
A lot of times, when we saywe're attracted to someone, we
treat it like that's just, it'sone, one thing.
It's just attraction, right?
And it's romantic and sexual andeverything thrown in.
And if you're attracted tosomeone, it's you want them to
be your best friend and you wantto have sex with them and spend
all your time with them andprobably you're eventually going
(14:42):
to bicker with them and hatethem.
But, it's not Laughter.
But we can divide it up.
So there's to take an easy one,divide sexual attraction from
romantic attraction or divideboth of those from emotional
attraction.
So there might be someone whoyou're really emotionally
attracted to.
You feel safe.
You feel comfortable with them.
(15:03):
You're drawn to them.
You want to be in theirpresence.
You don't want to fuck them.
Yeah.
You just don't feel that wayabout them.
Or maybe there's someone wholike you really enjoy going on
dates with.
But the idea of being sexuallyintimate with them, just, it
doesn't appeal to you.
Or to flip it around, one that'sperhaps relatable to a broader
section of the population.
(15:25):
Think about people you want tohave sex with, but you're not
attracted to romantically.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's the split attractionmodel, right?
Okay.
You can divide it up.
There's sexual attraction.
There's romantic attraction,emotional, spiritual.
Creative attraction.
Sometimes you're like, I want tocollaborate with you and I want
to write music.
That's a form of attraction.
There's aesthetic attraction,right?
(15:45):
Sometimes you just think someoneis beautiful and you love their
style and you like gazing atthem, but that doesn't mean you
want to have sex with them.
Like the sunset is beautiful.
I don't want to fuck the sun.
I could admire the beauty in it,but it doesn't mean I want to be
inside it.
Yeah.
And one of the things.
About really leaning into thissplit attraction model is, how,
(16:10):
like when you start to getattracted to someone, you might
feel like those littlebutterflies in your tummy.
That thing that we've beendescribed as what it means to
be, feeling infatuation andfeelings of love.
Now, the thing with butterfliesis there are a lot of different
species, but to the untrainedeye, butterflies is butterflies.
They all look the same, but youget an entomologist in there who
(16:31):
can start to tell the differencebetween a monarch and a
polymorpho.
They can start to say this isthis kind of butterfly.
This is that kind of butterfly.
And then your appreciation ofthe different kinds.
Becomes like it's enhancedbecause you know what you're
looking at, what you're lookingfor.
So I still feel butterflies.
It's just, I feel like bluemorpho butterflies, not Monarch
(16:54):
butterflies.
Yeah.
I can differentiate between themat some point.
And yeah, you're the queen ofanalogies over here.
Fuck literally like I open Oh myGod.
I thought I liked blue,whatever, and I like monarchs, I
didn't fucking know, but no Ifucking love that analogy,
That's great.
That's very eye opening.
But that's, to me, that is sucha clear depiction that it is
(17:20):
something that can be utilizedby people that do live within
this binary system thisnarrative that's been fed to
them.
The nuclear family model who youcan say, listen, you feel an
attraction, differentiate thetype of attraction you're
feeling because the only thingthat you've been told you are
able to expand.
Is you look on your attraction.
(17:41):
It means that you'd sexualattraction.
It means that there's some formof eroticism there.
And now you either a need tofeel shame because you're
partnered up and you're notsupposed to feel that or B it
means that you're now fuckingthings up.
Exactly.
It gives us a much more richvariety of relationships.
(18:02):
Yeah.
The implications forcommunication alone are
expansive in that matter to belike, Oh wait, listen this is a
common one that we see amongstpeople that we talk to where
they're like is it okay for meto look at someone else?
What are you feeling wheneveryou look at this other person?
Are you feeling a sexualattraction to them?
Are you just admiring theiraesthetics?
Define the attraction thatyou're having so it can be then
(18:26):
converted into conversation withyour partner, with your spouse,
whatever that is in a safe wayso it doesn't have to be like,
oh, you're looking at someoneelse means that you're trying to
sleep with them.
So expanding that out.
This is one of the things that Iwant to get through to our
listeners.
So much of why it's such animportant thing to me to have
people such announced peoplesuch as yourself to be on the
show is because this is what'sneeded.
(18:48):
This is like that missing linkbetween.
Being able to communicate insuch a way that's the, what
would be in quote normal andwhat is expansive.
This level of communicationallows people to really have a
deeper layer of communicationand be able to do it in a safe
way that allows them to feelsecure in their relationships.
Absolutely.
(19:10):
Yeah, I think so.
When I'm working with likeclients of my own, right?
I always tell them, look, evenif you're monogamous, learning
about non monogamy is going tohelp you understand your own
monogamy better.
Even if you're vanilla, learningabout BDSM and the like
negotiation and consentprotocols, that's going to help
you in your own quote unquotevanilla sexual practice, right?
(19:34):
Here, even for, here's a word.
Yeah.
Allosexual people.
What?
It's an allosexual person.
You're allosexual if you're notasexual.
So if sexual attraction towardother persons is a substantial
part of how you understandyourself and move through the
world, we call you allosexual.
Allo is a prefix.
That means other.
Like other directed.
So even for allosexual folks,learning about asexuality will
(19:58):
enrich your own understandingbecause it helps you place
yourself on the actual landscaperather than on this fake limited
landscape that we thought wasthe be all and end all sexuality
before.
Yeah.
I love that sexuality used to belike, like a wizard of Oz back
in the day when it was black andwhite.
(20:18):
And then the very first time itcut to color, it was like, holy
shit, that is what I feelsexuality has become.
And I feel like there still area vast majority of people that
see in black and white andthat's okay, but I really feel
like that's part of what we'redoing in the show and talking
with you is can we get people tosee in fucking color?
(20:38):
For the first time, like there'sso many colors out there.
It is not just what are likeperceived notion of what
relationships or sexuality was.
It's the color in which we arenow.
And I just wish other peoplewould see that.
Yeah, and I love that way ofputting it, like that switch
from black and white to color.
I love that.
(20:59):
Maybe it's also like the switchthat we got from the late 80s to
the early 2000s of 2D to 3D infilm, though that one wasn't as
smooth.
That one wasn't as smooth.
I was just re watching Fridaythe 13th part three in 3D the
other day.
So bad.
Wait, is that one that you'rehaving to watch like with 3d
glasses still?
Like, how are they doing?
(21:20):
How are you doing that?
I watch it on, I watch the 2dversion, but you're, you can
tell Oh yeah.
And it's coming up and it's OhGod.
That's like all the movies.
They tried to have a resurgenceof it in the early 2000s with
like My Bloody Valentine and afew others.
I was just thinking of that damnmovie.
That's so funny.
(21:41):
Where you can watch you watchlike an axe flying at the screen
and going, Oh, I see what theywere trying to do.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Now, one thing I'll clarify ifit's all right with y'all,
because I think it's animportant thing to note about
asexual folks too, is that someof us, Have and having sex.
(22:01):
I'm so glad, I was just about toask this question.
And I was like, I don't know ifI'm overstepping by asking and
I'm so glad you're saying it.
You did not overstep.
Challenge me.
But, I feel like Leigh is theperson you can have these open
conversations with and we don'thave to worry about any
backlash.
Yes ma'am, I will absolutelychallenge you.
Okay, continue.
So some asexual folks reallydon't like sex and they're not
(22:23):
sex negative.
Some are, of course, becausepeople from all groups can be
sex negative, but some are sexaverse, right?
And you can be sex positive andbelieve that like people should
embrace their full sexuality andall that and yourself still be
averse.
to sexual contact, and I think,in fact, if we're really going
to practice a sex positiveculture, we need to validate
(22:46):
people who are themselves averseto sexual contact, right?
But then we look at the otherasexual folks who are sex
welcoming, and here's how thatworks.
Notice when I was talking aboutasexuality, I kept saying, I
kept describing it in terms ofsexual attraction.
Attraction is not the same thingas desire, which is not the same
(23:07):
thing as behavior, right?
Sometimes I wake up in themiddle of the night, I'm hungry,
I want a snack I have a desirefor food.
I go to the fridge and nothinglooks good.
I'm not attracted to any of thestuff.
So being asexual doesn't meanyou don't have a libido.
Okay.
You can be asexual and stillhave a high degree of sexual
(23:29):
desire, but you just don'texperience that attraction
toward other persons.
If that sounds frustrating.
Yes, it can be.
I was about to say Jesus varioustechniques of self love and
such.
But there's also then thedifference between sexual.
desire and sexual behavior,right?
So there's lots of reasonspeople have sex other than
(23:51):
attraction or desire.
Consider like a couple that'strying to get pregnant.
They might not really want tohave sex, but they're doing it
for another purpose.
So asexual folks sometimes willhave sex for various reasons
that don't involve attraction totheir partner at all.
(24:11):
What are some of them?
It feels good.
Have you ever stimulated thatyour genitals?
That shit's nice, right?
It feels good.
That's a reason to do it.
Another is it can be a way ofbonding with your partner.
It can be a way of expressingappreciation.
And the way I like to think ofit is by analogy with massages.
(24:32):
So when I'm in a relationshipwith someone, I like to give
them massages because it makesthem feel good, and it makes me
feel good to know that I'mmaking them feel good.
And it's also a way of spendingquality time.
It's a way of being intentionalabout our contact.
And I also like to receivemassages.
(24:52):
Because of all that and alsobecause it just feels good.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I've never been out at a barand looked at someone and
thought, damn, I want to massagethat girl.
It's just never popped in myhead.
Yeah.
And so for me, just tell thatwhole story again, take out the
word massage and put in the wordfuck.
(25:14):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I've never looked at someone andthought, Oh, I need to have sex
with that person.
But in the context of arelationship, it's a way of
expressing, it's a way ofexpressing affection.
It's a way of bonding.
It's a way of feeling goodtogether.
It's important though, that wehave the conversation so they
(25:34):
know, Hey, I'm asexual.
And like actual sexualattraction towards you is not
part of my motivation here.
Conversation for some people.
I think that's refreshing asshit.
Be nice if we could all actuallyhave those honest conversations
with people, not just sayingasexual or not, but that's such
an honest conversation to havewith someone and to know how you
(25:57):
feel about that.
That's refreshing.
It can be scary too.
Because, asexuality is like oneof the new kids on the block in
the whole discussion oforientation, just like people
you say bisexuality isn't real,it's just, it's bad.
People still say that, but itwas really bad, like back in the
nineties, if you're a girl andyou're bisexual, you're actually
just.
straight girl looking forattention.
(26:18):
If you're a bisexual, you'reactually just gay and in denial,
but no one's really by peoplesay that it's asexual people
now, so even though we make upbetween 1.
5 to 2 percent of thepopulation, according to current
research, people don't believewe exist.
So when I'm starting to talk tosomeone and I tell them, yeah,
I'm ace.
Which is a common shorthand forasexual.
(26:41):
I gotta tell them 99 percent ofthe time, I gotta have this
conversation we're having rightnow with them, just to get them
up to speed.
Got it.
Yeah, and it would be sobeautiful if we were in a
culture where sex educationactually taught people about
this stuff, so that dating medidn't come with A bookshelf
worth of homework.
Yeah, that's, that's somethingthat we talk about often is the
(27:02):
current, like the currentlandscape of sex education and
the fact that we're not teachingabout like multiple sexualities,
even it's so limited.
We just had.
So even the seminar that I wason last weekend, where, which
was led by Dr.
Joe court, where he was talkingabout a lot of this, where he
was saying.
You take a group of young boysinto a room to do sex education
(27:26):
for them.
And you're talking about wetdreams and masturbation.
You're talking about all thesethings.
And then you turn around and youtalk to the group of girls that
are in there.
And first of all, I'm going,okay sex education is still at
this point, completely binary,100%.
And then on top of that, you'reteaching the boys about their
sexuality.
And you're teaching the girlsabout.
maintenance, biologicalmaintenance at the, like the
(27:47):
most, it's being like, here'swhat a period is and here's how
to, here's how to cope with it.
Yeah.
And then we're going, this is sofucked across the entire
landscape that you, they don'teven have the opportunity to get
in some of the more of the indepth conversations about what
is sexuality and is it static oris it fluid?
What does it mean to beattracted to someone?
(28:08):
And what are these things?
Entail.
And so it's been thisfrustrating existence to see.
So I can't even imagine how youfeel as someone who is every
time I fucking go and have aconversation with someone, I
have to explain and pointed afucking pile of books and say,
read this so you can even enterin the conversation that I want
(28:28):
to have.
It's you need to walk aroundwith a pamphlet yeah, here you
go, read this.
And then if this even remotelyinterests you, then come find me
later.
Yeah.
It's so I joke with my friendssometimes.
As a gender expansive, asexual,aromantic relationship
anarchist, who's also Kinky AF.
I moved to a small desert town.
(28:51):
My prospects here, let me telly'all this is a, I live in a
literal desert.
Finding someone who aligns withall of those things can be
really tricky.
But, the thing is, I know myselfand I know what I'm looking for.
And why would I compromise?
Why would I pretend to besomething I'm not?
(29:11):
Just to settle in arelationship.
That's not going to go well.
And when I do find people whomesh, and I have people, it's
just they're scattered around,when we mesh.
And it's if your onlyconversation is, Hey, do you
like sex?
I like sex.
Do you have a penis?
I have a penis.
Do you have a vagina?
I have a vagina.
Let's do it.
(29:31):
There's not going to be a lot ofactual integration and like
reflective compatibility, right?
But when you can really locateyourself on that GSRD landscape
and have that conversation andmeet someone, it's you're like,
The all the puzzle piecesinterlocking at once and that
can be a really beautiful anddeep connection and that's
(29:52):
available to everyone, right?
It's not, I'm not saying withthe penis vagina joke that like
straight people don't get it.
It's just it's about not how youidentify or who you're attracted
to, but it's about the depth ofunderstanding and how much of
that engagement and conversationyou're willing to let yourself
(30:12):
explore.
Yes, absolutely.
That's 1 of our big points thatwe try to make to people.
Whatever we're saying, theseconversations are things that
should be had early on.
We have this conversation withour daughter.
We do, we tell her all the time,like who you like, be who you
are.
Like, don't be afraid to explorewhat that might mean for you.
(30:33):
But she comes to us withconversations all the time.
And it's so cute to see a 10year old so confused.
And I'd like to tell her that itgets better.
I, and I loved what you saidearlier.
Like you're not in a box.
This is our, your, these areyour lenses for right now.
And I feel like her lenseschange daily.
But I, but, and that's fine.
And I love one.
(30:54):
I love the fact that she comesto us and we all talk about this
and we give her that safe space,but it's so interesting to see
someone as young as 10 years oldto go through all of these
different concepts of who andwhat and when and where she
feels like she wants to exploreherself with, and.
I love that she has thatopportunity and I just think
(31:16):
it's like crazy and sad and alsobeautiful all at the same time
that there are people in theirthirties just exploring this,
just figuring the sameconversation with 10 year olds
as we are with 40, 50 and 60year olds.
It's just, it's crazy to me andI thought, and I find it so
liberating for these youngerindividuals to and we think that
the information is not outthere, but it is when I have her
(31:38):
friends come to me and tell methat.
I feel like I'm lesbian.
I feel that this is what I want,but I could never tell my
parents that like we are givingour daughter to the safe space.
And I do feel like things areslightly starting to change.
And I think that people arestarting to have this
understanding, but yeah, it'scrazy to me that I hear the same
(31:59):
conversations from 10 year oldsas we do from 50 year olds.
Yeah.
It's so it's interesting.
We're seeing a real shift, and Ithink there's this, regardless
of generation, of course, it'smore common amongst younger
folks, but it's tricklingupward.
There is this.
Culture wide deconstruction ofsexuality.
(32:20):
Yes.
And it's been an ongoing processpeople have always been
deconstructing sexuality.
But I think it's accelerating.
And I think it's accelerating inpart because people are more
connected now than they havebeen before.
They're able to find otherpeople like them.
Like me growing up in ruralPennsylvania, surrounded by no
one like me.
There was no way I ever wouldhave known that I was any of the
(32:42):
things I listed earlier.
Cause I had no precedent.
I had no example.
I had no one to talk to whocould talk back to me about
having a similar experience.
And now I get on the internetwithin five seconds, I can find
someone who is like my clone.
Yeah.
And then we can relate and learnfrom each other.
And there's this idea thatsomehow, TikTok's making the
(33:04):
kids all gay or something likethat, or like asexuality is just
a Tumblr trend from people whowant to feel oppressed.
So they invented a new label sothat they count as queer based
on just like not having sex.
It's nonsense, right?
That's a very cynical anduninformed approach instead.
(33:27):
These discussions that we'rehaving in online communities
that bring people togetherwithout the artificial barriers
of like geography brings themtogether under shared
experience.
So they can start developing alanguage of shared identity and
understanding, and that's weshould absolutely embrace.
That is a wonderful thing.
Yes it's difficult to look atstuff like this and say why are
(33:51):
there people that are saying,no, we shouldn't do this?
It goes back to the whole whatwas that?
The, like the, I don't rememberthe name of the study or the
project or whatever it was,whenever it became okay to be
left handed and it was insteadof being like, okay here they
all come out of the woodwork.
Of course, there's a lot of us.
We always existed.
We were just told it's not okay.
And now that there's a platformin which to get this out, you
(34:14):
would even get your ownscissors.
I still don't.
You don't even get your ownscissors.
You're left handed.
I am absolutely left handed.
So here's the thing about lefthandedness, right?
So in like 1906, about three anda half percent of the population
(34:36):
was identified as left handed.
And then that number graduallyincreases.
And plateaus off around 1960 ataround 12 percent and it's
stayed there ever since and youcan imagine, this is the point
you were just making peoplebeing like, oh, it's those
newspapers.
The kids are reading today.
They're making them all lefthanded.
Yeah, it's no, we stoppedbeating them, we stopped behind
(34:58):
their left hand behind theirback, forcing them to use their
rights.
So it's not that only three anda half percent of people were
left handed.
It's that three and a halfpercent of people were allowed
to be left handed and the restof that 12 percent weren't.
Yes.
But even now you might thinkwe've reached total equality for
left handed people, but as a,like an educator, when I write
(35:20):
on a chalkboard, I wear thatshit.
Yeah.
The swipey card at Target orsomething like, I love making
him pay out.
I love making him pay outbecause he has to get all
awkward and move it over.
And I'm like, this is just notmeant for you, baby.
And as people, we know that welive in a right handed world.
(35:41):
Who doesn't know that is mostright handed people to come
across like my favorite point.
This is look listen.
And now he goes on his tangentas a cisgendered heterosexual
male.
This is the only connection thatI have to any world outside of
my own.
(36:01):
And I, and so I cling to itbecause I could never ever.
Hope to understand what otherpeople have to go through, but I
try to on some level empathize.
And if this is all I have, thenI'm going to fucking ride that
wave as long as I can.
I'm going to do you solid.
As someone who has authoritywithin the queer community, as
(36:23):
someone who calls the shots,we're going to change the
acronym to S.
R.
E.
A.
L.
From here on out, it is l.
G.
B.
T.
K.
A.
Plus.
For Lesbians, Lefties, Welcometo the community, my friends! I
love it! One of us! Oh, Iappreciate that.
(36:52):
Of course.
I do.
Then, I don't know.
Oh my God.
And in these topics the ofasexuality and going through all
this, I have a very importantquestion for you.
And this comes to me fromconversations that I've had with
people about how things justlook right now.
And this is I hate to.
(37:12):
Say the question, but it I feellike it's necessary and it's
something along the lines of Howdo you respond to someone that
says that asexuality is aportion of is a mental illness?
Yeah, that's a good questionIt's an important question and
it's one that I understand whereit comes from, right?
Because you might think someonewho is mentally ill or deeply
(37:35):
traumatized might become sexaverse and given that like
Asexuality is not normalized Inpopular sexual discussions, it
seems a little alien.
So you might think, yeah, that'sa defect.
It's an acquired defect, theresult of mental illness or some
kind of wound, right?
I get that, but it's not true.
And here's why it's not true.
(37:57):
So we do have research thatpretty clearly shows that sexual
orientation is not connected to.
any sort of trauma in any way.
Nothing, no experience that yougo through is going to make you
gay, going to make you straight,going to make you ace, going to
make you buy any of thesethings.
What trauma, mental illness andthe like can do, though, is it
(38:20):
can affect the way that youidentify, right?
So think about this differencebetween your orientation, which
is who you're actually attractedto, and your sexual identity,
which is how you interpret that.
How you yourself would describeit.
So someone who's say gay, butstill not accepting that about
(38:42):
themselves, they have anincongruent sexual orientation
and identity, right?
They're gay, but they interpretthemselves as a straight person.
Someone who is reallytraumatized by say abusively
religious upbringing might begay, but unable to accept that
(39:02):
about themselves.
Have that mismatch, right?
And there, the religious traumais not affecting the
orientation, but it is affectingthe identity and what we see is
that those effects of any ofthese factors, they're going to
(39:23):
typically make ourinterpretation of our
identities.
More conservative, not in apolitical sense, but in the like
sense of being more restrictedrather than more open, you're
very rarely you're going to seesomeone who's actually gay, but
identifies as straight becauseof trauma more often than you're
going to see the inverseadverse.
Okay.
Yeah.
(39:43):
Okay.
Identifies as gay because oftrauma or whatever.
That's far less frequent.
Got it.
Asexuality.
One, we just, yeah.
We have no data that it is anexception to this to say that it
is just conjecture, right?
If you got data on it, I'd loveto see it.
Exactly.
Now, our trauma can put upblocks to intimacy, right?
(40:10):
But that's having.
Difficulty expressing andreceiving intimacy because of
mental illness or trauma isdifferent from asexuality.
Asexuality is sexual attractiontoward other persons doesn't,
is, doesn't play a part in howyou understand how you relate to
yourself and others.
In fact asect.
(40:31):
The American Association forSexuality Educators, Counselors,
and Therapists, the kind ofoverarching ruling organization
in the US for all of thoseoccupations declared a few years
ago that no ASEC certifiedtherapist or practitioner is
allowed to pathologizeasexuality and treat it as a
(40:53):
condition to be cured.
We don't do that.
So I do have one question andthis is just a personal question
for myself.
Because I remember growing up, Iactually labeled myself as
asexual because I struggled withhaving general attraction for
either gender.
(41:13):
I always struggled with that andit was, and so I got a little
bit older and I started divingfurther in that I then said,
maybe I am more pansexual than Iam asexual.
But I'm curious, what is thedifference between the two then?
Between pansexual andintersexual.
Asexual, yes.
Ooh.
(41:33):
And I'm sorry if I'm sorry if Imisunderstood it earlier.
No.
But I am wanting my ownclarification, but between two,
I, I wanna hear this.
'cause I'm like, to me, I'm likethe all or nothing.
I just, I don't, but I wanna, Idon't even hear an expert on
this.
I, yeah.
I love this question, and ifit's cool, y'all, I'm gonna loop
the answer into it.
To a second answer to thequestion y'all asked about
(41:55):
mental illness stuff.
Yes.
Because there's a story to tellhere about all of this.
Okay.
Autism.
Autism is not a mental illness.
It's a natural variation inhuman experience.
Autistic folks are more likelyto be queer.
Okay.
About 70 percent of Autisticfolks identify as non
heterosexual, whereas in thegeneral population, 70 percent
(42:17):
of people identify asheterosexual.
Autistic folks are up to threeto four times more likely to
identify as trans or genderexpansive and about eight times
more likely to identify asasexual.
This might be where some peopleget the connection between
asexuality and mental illness.
Because they're like, they'rethinking of autism in this
(42:41):
medicalized model, like it'ssomehow a disease or something,
it's a condition to be cured butit's not.
Now, why might it be thatautistic folks are more likely
to identify as asexual?
Because sexuality is sociallyconstructed and our norms of
engagement are sociallyconstructed and autistic
(43:03):
persons, like myself, sometimesrelate to those norms in
different ways.
So there's a lot more reflectiontypically on sexuality and the
terms we use to understandourselves and maybe a bit more
of a desire for clarity andprecision in our language.
So we, we get that byintroducing more nuanced
(43:24):
language.
Then there's.
There's, you can continuetelling that story.
Now, to tie it into yourquestion about pansexuality,
because, hey, get this, I'masexual, but sometimes I'll call
myself pansexual instead.
Here's why.
I don't know what sex is, right?
(43:46):
And in part because As anautistic person, I want clarity.
I want conditions.
I want understanding.
I'm not gonna anytime anyoneasks me like, where was the last
time you had sex?
My answer is always, what do youmean by sex?
Define it for me and then I cananswer because I don't know.
It's a really messy, murkyconcept and there's a lot of
(44:08):
things that it could mean.
Sometimes depending on who I'mtalking to I'll say that I'm
asexual because when thedominant notion of sex that I
have a grasp on I have a, Iunderstand that most people mean
my sex.
I don't experience that kind ofattraction.
Yeah, this broader notion ofsex.
I've had partnerships that havelasted years where we have never
(44:28):
had genital.
Contact, but we've beenintimate.
It's just that intimacy involvesrope and knives and blow torches
and not orgasms, but subspaceand maybe that counts.
I don't know if it does ordoesn't, but if that does, then
(44:51):
I'd call myself pansexual, witha preference for feminine
presenting folks.
My autistic need for clarity onthings, which again, is not a
disorder.
It's not a deficit.
It's not a mental illness.
It's just I have a differentneurotype.
And this brain works leads me tonot know what sex is with any
(45:15):
sort of satisfaction.
So I typically just go with thedefinition whoever I'm talking
to has.
If they have a more conventionalunderstanding of sex, I'll speak
their language.
I'll say I'm asexual.
If they have a broader notion ofsex, that's a little more
inclusive and sexual.
Really, it's whatever lens helpsin the moment.
Yeah.
(45:35):
Okay.
If only we had a universaldefinition.
Which, for legal purposes andfor things like figuring out
what qualifies as sexual assaultand everything, it would be
really good to have one ofthose.
But it'd be really hard to getit.
Yeah.
In the same way that we try tocontinuously find some unified
theory of physics, swear.
(46:00):
Here comes the unified theory ofsex.
Yeah.
I would say, this question of amI asexual or am I pansexual?
There's no fact in the matter.
It's just it's not like you'regoing to look in at your soul
and find the little label thatgives you that clarity.
Yeah, you give them astorytelling devices in the
(46:20):
story that you're telling withyour life, which is a better
plot device, which makes moresense of the narrative.
And I can change, I think mymisunderstanding toward
asexuality before I really gotfocused into to what it.
Our studies and what it is thatwe're doing and what we aim to
achieve was that just asexualmeant that no sexual, no, and
(46:41):
not in a course, no sexual,anything happened, but that's
actually really not the case.
And so that's super interestingto dive in because we had talked
about wanting to speak with youand wanting to do this episode.
And I was talking with myclients about asexuality and
they immediately were likedoesn't that mean that they just
don't have sex at all?
I'm like.
No, that's not what that, that'snot necessarily what that means,
but it's so interesting thateven these like definitions are
(47:04):
still so misunderstood.
Yeah.
Go ahead.
I'm sorry.
I'm rambling here and thelanguage is always evolving too.
So like the language is alwaysbeing negotiated, you talk to a
different.
Asexuality educator on here andthey might tell you a different
story, right?
(47:24):
I don't, this is not the asexualgospel I'm giving y'all.
This is my perspective on it assomeone who studies it, teaches
about it and lives it, right?
Some asexual people, no sexever.
No dating, no sex, no touch, butthat's a spectrum, and like I
said before, this just takeswhat we used to think of as a
line and turns it into a gridand eventually into a cube.
(47:47):
It's just depth that everyonebenefits from understanding.
And yeah, the amount ofconversations so much, the
amount of times I've talked topeople about asexuality.
Like in big groups and at leastone person comes up to me
afterwards and we're like, Inever thought about it, but I
(48:08):
think this is me and then theywalked away with more self
understanding.
That's such a beautiful thing.
Yeah, because what happenswhenever we have a greater sense
of self understanding is we havegreater amounts of happiness.
We have less instances ofconfidence.
Yeah, everything.
If you can do anything toincrease someone's happiness and
sense of well being in theirplace within the world and fuck.
(48:29):
Yeah, rock on.
Go for it.
One fewer voice in your headtelling you that you're broken.
Yes.
God.
Fuck.
Yes.
That's going to be the captionof this episode.
Oh yeah.
That's the kind of shit thatwe're trying to put, to move
towards our move, our audiencetowards is open their eyes to
the understanding that.
(48:50):
You're not broken.
You're not fucked up.
Exactly.
And your normal is just thatit's your normal, but your
normal doesn't define yourpartners or your peers or
anybody.
Like when you sit in a group ofpeople and you listen to them
talk about their in quote normallives and you feel less than
because you don't fit into theirbox.
Yeah.
It's okay.
(49:10):
It's entirely okay to feel that.
Maybe you haven't found theexact person that you should be
talking to.
Yeah.
Be you and figure yourself outand learn that sexuality is
fluid and learn that we're notliving inside some sort of
binary system.
This isn't the fucking matrix.
We're not comprised of zeros andones.
(49:31):
Yeah, not anymore.
We're fucking breaking throughthat shit.
where it's water and we need tomove like water and we can go
back and forth and just havethis whole fluid experience and
it would be so much, we wouldall be so much better off if we
experienced love and life likethis.
Yeah.
And I forget if we talked aboutthis last time I was on here,
but the matrix, it was writtenby two trans girls.
(49:53):
Yes, it is.
The, which now the Wachowskisisters.
Yeah.
And the red pill, the fabled redpill that is like.
Taken over Reddit subcultures.
It was Estrogen.
There you go.
Is it really?
That was the metaphor.
And in the 90s, he came in a redpill, and the choice there was
(50:13):
for Neo, chose that name but wasconsistently deadnamed by the
bad guys throughout the wholefilm who refused to call him by
his affirmed name.
Mr.
Anderson?
Yeah, the choice was aboutwhether to transition or not.
Whether to stay in this fakeworld or to take the risk.
And move into reality.
(50:34):
And the red pill was startinghormone therapy.
And I just love the way thatwhole cultural narrative has
evolved.
And it's it's like people whothink Tyler Durden was the good
guy in Fight Club.
It's no.
No.
No, that's not how that works.
Yeah.
I fucking have chills from that.
I'm literally, I was like, Idon't know I like that
(50:55):
perspective.
I love that.
I want to, I now want to knowmore.
Watch it again with this lens.
You'll see it.
That's what I'm saying.
I'm like, I didn't know that.
That's crazy.
And yeah, the movie before thematrix, they directed bound with
Jennifer Tilley and GinaGershwin, super hot lesbian noir
films.
And people were all like, Howdid two men direct this hot?
(51:18):
It's because they were lesbians.
Men don't know how lesbians havesex like that.
No, no idea.
See, that's such an interestingperspective to me because we
you've had the, like the, that,like mainstream narrative about
the Wachowskis, about everythingthat they've been through and
about, there's just so much totheir, like involving with
(51:39):
terminator and with the matrixand everything else.
So it's a whole universe to evenget into that discussion.
I feel like this is a differentpodcast episode that y'all are
getting into right now.
It's like a whole differentpodcast.
Oh, we, we've been talking for awhile and we super appreciate
(52:02):
it.
In fact, we didn't even get tocover one of the topics we
wanted to.
Whenever we're talking aboutlike asexuality and kink and
building relationships on that,I guess we're just going to have
you on again.
Oh, no, dang it.
Listen, we're going to beshooting for the next time that
we see you are the next timethat we have you on the podcast
is going to be in person.
That's going to be what we wantto do.
We have some things workingbehind the scenes in which we're
(52:25):
creating some relationships withsome very great people that are
going to allow for things likethat to happen.
So we would love to extend thatinvitation to you prematurely.
Yeah.
Person podcast with us, where wediscuss some of these things.
And bring your paddles.
I love it.
Accepted.
I'll tell y'all if I'm travelingto your neck of the woods, I am
(52:46):
bringing.
My whole pop up dungeon in mybackseat, which I'll tell you
driving through border control,which I have to do when they
peek in my backseat and they seelike a folded up St.
Andrew's cross.
It's fun.
That's for, Oh my God.
It's been a pleasure as always.
(53:06):
We, you're, one of our favoriteguests to have.
So thank you very much for beingon the show today.
We're going to close it off bysaying, Oh, we really hope this
sparks some sort of deeperthought within you.
We hope this evokes some sort ofpower within you to really take
some exploration and some selfreflection.
So for another episode of comewith Casey, we are your hosts.
I'm Dr.
(53:26):
Casey Sanders and I'm CarrieSanders.
We'll see you next time.
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