March 5, 2024 • 58 mins
Carissa Welch lives in Oklahoma. She and her husband have three children, 7, 5, and 2. She is a seminary student and attends Covenant Cumberland Presbyterian Church.
Music is provided by Pierce Murphy, Caldera Blue.
Source: https://www.freemusicarchive.org/music/Pierce_Murphy/through-the-olive-branches/caldera-blue
Comments: http://freemusicarchive.org/
Additional comments: modifications made to shorten and loop song for introduction and closing of podcast.
Copyright Attribution and License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
T.J. (00:02):
You're listening to the Cumberland Road, and I'm your
host, TJ Malinoski. Thefollowing is a faith
conversation with Carissa Welch,a seminary student and a member
of Covenant CumberlandPresbyterian Church in Oklahoma.
(00:26):
Carissa was raised in adifferent environment than
myself, and I was interested inhearing her journey. She comes
from a fundamentalist Christianupbringing where clothing, food,
and intake of anythingconsidered worldly was measured
with suspicion and and perhapseven evil. Carissa's experience
(00:51):
can serve as a cautionary tale,a warning that the Christian
faith can be manipulated into aform of mental bondage. A
conversation with Carissa has mereflecting on what faith in
Jesus Christ can be. For me,faith in Christ is an invite to
(01:16):
the experience of God into newpossibilities. To live, to love,
and to be. I hope to have morefaith conversations like this in
the future. Here is the faithjourney of Carissa Welch.
(01:39):
So do you come from a big familyor a small family? How many
siblings do you have?
Carissa (01:46):
I have got 7 brothers. I'm, I'm 34. My big brother is
gonna be 36 next month, and Ihave brothers that just stair
step all the way down to 14years old.
T.J. (01:59):
Yeah. What is a household like with that many children? Is
there places to hide when youwere growing up? Did you have
space of your own?
Carissa (02:09):
Well, I mean, I was the only girl, so I got my own room.
But it was definitely, like, arace to the bathrooms in the
morning to see who could get inthe shower when there was still
hot water. There's always, like,you know, random wrestling
matches worked through a lot ofinterpersonal problems. It was
(02:31):
fun. It was fun.
We worked through a lot ofinterpersonal problems.
T.J. (02:42):
This sounds like a silly question, but how did you get
from a to b? How did you get tothe store or to church? Does
everybody fit in one vehicle, ordo you have to take 2?
Carissa (02:55):
I learned how to drive in a 15 passenger van. Not a
good driver. It was not a goodexperience. But now I get in a
car, and I'm like, oh, this iseasy to drive. I can get this
anywhere. I can fit in any spotwith this thing.
T.J. (03:12):
Okay. So you did the big van. You did the 15 passenger
van.
Carissa (03:17):
Yes. Yes. We did. And then on long trips, because
there were so many benches, shewould make sure there was a
space in between every twopeople so that there were no
fights in the van on the way toour destination.
T.J. (03:32):
Well, did you label your family van? Did you, like, put
on the side of it your familyname? Or
Carissa (03:38):
We didn't.
T.J. (03:40):
Okay.
Carissa (03:41):
It it, we should've done that. That would've been a
good idea.
T.J. (03:45):
I know. I'm asking jokingly. Most people don't even
know. Can you be kinda neat?
Carissa (03:52):
Oh, man.
T.J. (03:53):
You could've made up some band name or sports team name.
Carissa (03:58):
We could have. We, we were a band. We all played
instruments, so we we definitelyshould've done that. We missed
an opportunity there.
T.J. (04:08):
So what was your upbringing like? Was your
household did you have faith,you know, Christian faith? Or
Carissa (04:17):
Yeah. My dad was actually he was a pastor. Well,
when I was a little baby, he wasa missionary. My parents met
when my dad was teaching in abible school, and then they got
married. We moved overseas, Andwe lived in Singapore for 5
years and then came back, and heimmediately started pastoring.
(04:39):
And so you hear the classicstories of, like, the pastor's
kids, you know, being crazy andbut that really wasn't us
because we were all terrified.We were all scared to death of
going to hell, and so we we wewere pretty lined out. We were
we were some pretty straightlaced kids for the most part.
(05:02):
But we definitely there therewas this really odd mix of faith
in that we were so scared ofhell, but we saw really real
experiences around us the wholetime. Like, we knew that we knew
that that my dad really lovedGod. We knew that he loved the
(05:23):
bible. It was just it was areally, honestly confusing
experience to watch kind ofthose two things at the same
time. Like, this man who talkedabout, like, a really, you know,
really loving relationship withGod, and then also we're just
you know, we're we're terrifiedall the time of of God. It was
(05:47):
it formed a lot about us in ourearly years, I think.
T.J. (05:52):
What were those tensions like? Because I would imagine
that you have the tensions ofloving God, but also being
fearful. But also, kind of theviewpoint looking at the world,
the world is a wonderful place,but also something that has evil
or things to be feared. Mhmm.Did you grow up in that kind of
environment that I mean, it'skind of a dichotomy, love but
(06:14):
yet hate, fear yet, you know,compassion.
That Yeah. That can mess with akid's head. It can mess with an
adult's head. Did you have anexperience like that?
Carissa (06:28):
Yeah. I well, so what what you're saying about, like,
the world just looking evil, wewere it was like every decision
in our lives was made kind oftrying to be protective. So,
like, we were homeschooledbecause, because of influences
(06:49):
that could be in public schools.I mean, teaching that could be
in public schools. The thingsthat we would watch at home,
like, I mean, cuss words, we'regonna cuss words are like, like,
definitely don't murder anybody.
Also, definitely do not cuss. SoYou know, every
T.J. (07:08):
Let me let me interrupt you for a minute. So how were
those television shows, movies,How were they curated? Like, how
did how did they say these arethe movies that are approved.
These are the ones that are notapproved.
Carissa (07:25):
We had we had resources. We had there are
websites that will do reviewsand kind of tell you everything
that's in a movie. We have thisthing called a cuss box that you
would plug into your TV. And
T.J. (07:38):
Yes. See, I didn't wanna lead into you know, my question
was loaded. I've heard of those.I've seen those.
Carissa (07:47):
Yeah. We had those.
T.J. (07:48):
Okay.
Carissa (07:50):
We had that. It would, it would mute. It would mute the
show every time there was a cussword. And, And, I mean, you
know, there were some moviesthat, you know, once you get to
a certain rating, we're just noteven gonna try to watch that.
But everything was done in mindwith, like, the the world is a
scary bad place, and you don'tyou don't wanna interact with it
(08:11):
very much.
And so and so, also, when theworld is a scary bad place, it's
a lot easier to talk people intointo theologies that are
supposed to be protective, butare really just, really
restrictive and sometimesoutright abusive. So, you know,
(08:40):
we were homeschooled, and thenalso I was I was the only girl.
So I saw a big differencebetween how how I was allowed to
kind of move around in the worldand how my brothers were allowed
to move around in the world.
T.J. (08:59):
What were the differences?
Carissa (09:03):
Well, here's an example. I remember one time I
was I was talking with my dadabout something, and I was
really upset and, like, tryingto make my point. I remember him
going, Carissa, you are alwaysgonna have to submit to somebody
because one day you're gonna bemarried, and you're just gonna
have to submit to him. So So youmight as well just learn to
submit now. And I just rememberthinking, what about this guy?
(09:26):
What about what about mybrother? Like, he's that that
can't be that can't be a goodreason for telling somebody to
just listen without thinkingthrough something. Like, it
can't just be that for the restof your life, you're gonna have
to listen to somebody else. Andand I didn't even realize then
where that teaching had comefrom. There I'm sure a lot of
(09:51):
people have watched shiny happypeople.
We were not IDLP, but my dad wasreally influenced by the IBLP
teachings. There's this wholeteaching about the umbrella of
authority, and it's Jesus at thetop, and then it's the dad, the
husband, and then the wife'sunder him, and then the kids are
under that. And it's it's kindof, again, it's supposed to be
(10:16):
protective because everything'sscary. Everything's dangerous.
And so you're supposed to have,like, all these layers of
protection, but it just Well itwire.
T.J. (10:27):
For for our listeners, like, before we had this
conversation, one of thehomework assignments I had was
to, watch a documentary on, Ithink it's on Amazon Prime,
called Shiny Happy People. Mhmm.And it's based upon a family.
You have to help me. The
Carissa (10:49):
The Duggars.
T.J. (10:50):
The Duggars families, there is
Carissa (10:51):
Yeah.
T.J. (10:52):
Had, like, a reality TV show on TLC Discovery Channel.
All this missed me. It justwasn't a television show I was
interested in. In. But anyway,for perspective, they are they
were and are part of a Christianorganization called Institute in
(11:12):
Basic Life Principles.
Carissa (11:14):
Mhmm.
T.J. (11:15):
And it's a Christian organization. It's been around
for quite some time. I think, 91960, 61, somewhere pretty
early. And, so anyway, one ofthe principles talks about the
umbrellas. There there isdifferent things that fall under
an umbrella.
And I know after watching thedocumentary series, because,
(11:36):
like, umbrella would besomething that I would talk
about, like, oh, we fall underthis big tent or this big
umbrella. Yeah. I don't use thatanymore. Yeah. But at any rate,
so there, this is a Christianorganization that your family
was familiar with or aware of oror
Carissa (11:57):
Yeah. My dad would host the conferences every once in a
while at his church. And I thinkhe probably he and Bill Gothard
are both from Illinois and thatso he probably was exposed to
his his stuff pretty early on.Mhmm. Just the circles that he
was in. But but yeah. So I Igrew up influenced by the
(12:20):
teachings of that without evenknowing that's where it came
from.
T.J. (12:25):
How detailed, is the, institute in basic life
principles in the in the day today life of a member? Like, how
how deep does it go? I mean,beyond just saying I would
imagine this is, you know,Carissa, be a good person. Be
polite to the people that youencounter. I mean, is it that
(12:45):
superficial or is it more likedown to, like, the socks that
you wear, like, the color of it?
How detailed does that get?
Carissa (12:53):
I remember we had, like, big folders of all of
these teachings from from theinstitute, and it was, like,
there was there was a there wasa little pamphlet for
everything. There were pamphletsfor how much sugar you should
eat. There were pamphlets. Noway. Yes.
There were pamphlets definitelyabout, like, authority, and it
(13:17):
it it it touches every area oflife. And even the way that that
played out, I've hadconversations now as an adult
where I realized, like, oh, youyou're in all of your things
don't touch each other. Like, inin my brain, when I'm talking
(13:37):
about when I'm talking aboutclothes that I wear or at least
up until a few years ago, if I'mthinking about clothes that I
wear, I can't think about thatwithout thinking about my face.
If I'm thinking about what I'meating, I can't it's hard to
think about that withoutassigning moral judgment to it.
Every everything in your lifebecomes a moral decision, And
(14:02):
that is exhausting.
It is I mean, just it's it'sbondage. It is mental bondage to
everything in your life carryingso much weight that it's you
know, what you're gonna put inyour mouth is gonna take you
further away from God or closerto God. Wow. Or just every
(14:25):
everything became a life ordeath decision. Everything.
And and I saw that play out inmy life, in my brother's lives.
It's just everything was, it wasalmost like religious OCD. Like,
you can't you can't think athought about anything without
thinking, am I breaking aprinciple here? Am I defying
authority here? Am I it it wasemotionally taxing to say the
(14:50):
least.
Mentally taxing emotionally.
T.J. (14:53):
So these different scenarios from what you eat,
clothing, decision making, arethese measured against from your
experience, are these measuredagainst, like, the rules from
the pamphlets and the teachingsfrom from the organization? Or
is this more welled up from godwill be angered? You know, where
(15:17):
do you think this is, you know,looking back? Well, I now know
that you're no longer a part ofthat. I don't want to jump to
that part of the story.
But, you know, where's where arethese measurements coming from?
Is it it's hard for me to it'shard for me to wrap my brain
around. I mean Yeah. The senseof guilt and things like that, I
(15:39):
mean, I think that covers, anyfaith perspective. You know,
it's not just, you know, somenarrow sector organization.
You know, it's in Christianity.I think it's another face as
well. But that can also be sostifling that there is no room
(15:59):
for growth.
Carissa (16:01):
Yeah. So while we didn't follow everything from
the IBLP pamphlets, that centralteaching of authority, In in
shiny happy people, there's astatement made that every every
father becomes their own cultthe the cult leader of their own
(16:21):
home, and that's kind of was itwhat it was. So so, yes, there
were some standards set up fromIBLP, and we we didn't take
like, we didn't I didn't have towear dresses, but I definitely
had a modesty code that I had tofollow. And it was pretty strict
at some points in my life, andit would change because when
(16:43):
every when every dad is the cultleader of their own home, then
every home kind of gets theirown specific rules according to
whatever the dad thinks. And somy dad kind of we had influences
from my BLP, but then we alsohad influences from, like, a
Pentecostal holiness background.
(17:03):
So, you know, we didn't watch alot of movies. We didn't we
didn't there there depending onwhat his what his feelings were
at the time, that woulddetermine what we were or we're
not allowed to do. So sometimeshe might be feeling a little
freer, and we could suddenlywatch a couple movies. And then
(17:25):
all of a sudden, he he has aconviction that changes, then
we're, like, you know, back tonothing. Like, at at one point,
we could watch the lord of therings, and then at one point, we
couldn't because, there's aspirit of fear that is you know,
it's just kind of verysubjective.
So so we didn't we didn't haveto follow everything that was in
the IBLP, but we absolutely hadto follow and kind of always be
(17:52):
thinking through what would dadthink about this. And so as a
result of that, you don't youdon't learn to reason through
things for yourself. You don'tlearn to listen to the holy
spirit for yourself. And Iunderstand that at some level,
like, yes, a dad and a momtogether, not just the dad. The
dad and the mom are there tohelp guide the kids, but it just
(18:15):
it takes it to a different levelwhere you real you truly don't
learn to think through thingscritically until you're older.
T.J. (18:23):
Yeah. It makes me wonder listening. You know, there's a
distinction between God and aparent. For me, as a child and
as a youth, you want to pleaseyour parents. But my parents
weren't God.
So it seems like a strangeenvironment as in, did you you
(18:46):
know, growing up, did you have arelationship with God and could
you envision a relationship offaith without your parents?
Because to me that seems like abiblical principle in terms of,
you know, having what do theycall it now? Like a generational
faith. Oh, my parents went tochurch, you know, they were
people of faith, so I'm a personof faith because of that. This
(19:10):
is like the other end of thatsame spectrum though, I would
think is I have a faith, but itit gets channeled through the
approval rating of, a father ormother figure or both.
Carissa (19:23):
Yeah. So how that played out in my life was,
again, I I know my dad knew God.I I know that whatever whatever
things were given to me,whatever all of the baggage that
I may have, I know that he lovedGod, and I know that he I I saw
(19:44):
things in his life that I knowwere the work of God. And so I
saw that and I really latched onto it. And I was like, I know
that's possible.
I know I can learn to know God.Mhmm. But I couldn't. I couldn't
at home because of exactly whatyou're saying. I if I thought
(20:04):
something about God, I had tomake sure it lined up with what
dad thought about God.
If I, if I needed to make adecision and I needed to decide,
well, is god leading me to dothis? Am I would this be a good
decision? I even even incollege. So when I I was over
18, I couldn't make a decisionwithout thinking, well, he's my
(20:30):
authority. So if he's if hedoesn't if he doesn't think this
is right, then it cannot beGod's will because he's my he's
my umbrella of protection.
And so, yeah, I was I was scaredto do anything or think anything
or believe anything that did notline up with what he thought.
T.J. (20:51):
There's a difference between, a teenager, young adult
going to their parents for,kinda, counsel and advice. Like
Mhmm. In college, you know, Imean, some families are tight.
You can be like, hey, this isthe classes I'm thinking about
taking so that I can get, youknow, move towards degree x or
(21:12):
y. Mhmm.
And, you know, you get feedbackthat way. But what you're
describing is that this isdifferent.
Carissa (21:20):
Yeah. It was it was it was on another level. For
instance, I have I mean, thinkabout just going to a a trusted
friend now. Like, I feel likethat's probably how most adult
kids would go to their parents.It's like, I, you know, I know
you've lived a lot of life.
I value your opinion. Mhmm. Butit it you're right. It was not
(21:42):
that. It was if if he doesn'tthink this is the will of God,
this is not the will of God.
If he doesn't think this is atrue belief about God, this is
not a true belief about God. Andso, yeah, I I I got married at
24 and lived at home until then.And only I think I I think I
(22:07):
lived outside of the house for,like, a month before I got
married because my family movedaway, and so I moved in with a
friend until I got married. Butuntil then, I I didn't even
start to be able to kind of havemy own relationship with God.
You know?
That was not that was nottotally dependent on, on him.
(22:32):
And goodness. Thank Jesus. Imarried a man who did not he
didn't buy into any of that. Helike, there was there was not he
if I told him he was supposed tobe the umbrella, he'd be like,
what?
There there was nothing in himthat wanted to that wanted to
(22:53):
direct me in that way or, he'she's the man with the least
control issues I've ever seen inmy whole life. So that was
really healing for me. I wasfinally able to start thinking
through things for myself.
T.J. (23:07):
Mhmm. So looking back into your childhood, teenage years up
until 24 ish, what were some ofthe, takeaways that made Carissa
who she is and has informed yourdecision making, going on in in
your life. And these could be, Idon't know, Christmas memories,
(23:30):
Yeah. Birthdays.
Carissa (23:32):
So, every Friday night, we would have game night, you
know, with just a gaggle ofpeople.
T.J. (23:44):
Like board games?
Carissa (23:46):
Yes. Yes. Every Friday night was board game night, and
me and my brothers would sitaround with my parents, and we'd
just play games all night. Andit was, like, just such good
team building. Mhmm.
That's still one of my favoritethings to do is play play board
games because of that.
T.J. (24:04):
Were playing cards were playing cards acceptable?
Carissa (24:08):
Yep. Yeah. They were. Okay. I knew you.
Yep.
T.J. (24:11):
What a liberal household you grew up in.
Carissa (24:16):
Yeah. And then, also, this one's a little abstract,
but I my dad loved learning, andI really picked that up from
him. Like, I was laughing atmyself the other day because,
like, I'm sitting at my deskright now, and there's are just
stacks and stacks of books. AndI, like, just the how nerdy he
(24:38):
got about word studies and, thatwas just always a thing in our
house. Like, we were alwayslearning something, and I am so,
so thankful for that.
T.J. (24:50):
Did you have theological discussions in the household? I
mean, being in the minister'sfamily and being in a in a
pretty good sized family interms of numbers. Mhmm. Did you
guys have, like, theologicaldiscussions about what the
biblical text was talking aboutthat maybe weren't necessarily,
(25:11):
like, teaching elements of,like, this is who you should be,
this is who you should behave,but, like, the meaning of the
text and how it speaks to thepeople in the household.
Carissa (25:23):
I mean, we would have, like, periodic family devotions,
and my dad was just verydidactic in general. So, yeah,
he would he would talk about,you know, different passages
with us, and we'd have to do,like, memory verses together.
And, and then, you know, everySaturday night, he'd be sitting
(25:43):
at the at the kitchen tablewriting his sermons. He'd been
work writing it all week, andhe'd be wrapping it up on
Saturday night. Mhmm.
And so he'd kinda, like, preacha sermon to me as and, like and
I'd get to give, you know,feedback, like explain this
better. How does this work? Sothat was cool too. So, yeah, I
was everything was a teachingmoment all the time.
T.J. (26:08):
Well, that's a value moment as in Yeah. You know, if
you're practicing your sermonthat way, you're asking for
input. And that's a hard thingto do.
Carissa (26:19):
Yeah. Yeah. It is. He he would he would write out his
sermons almost like word forword, but then he'd kinda get up
and give them not memorized, buthe just knew that he knew it
well enough at that point thathe could do it without looking
at his notes much. But yeah.
T.J. (26:39):
Well, how did your growing up years and kinda you had
mentioned earlier about, fear,making mistakes, were some of
the terms that you used. How didthis not just completely turn
you off to the Christian faith?
Carissa (26:58):
So,
T.J. (27:00):
because there didn't seem to be much of a gray area.
You're either all in or not atall. It doesn't seem like
there's, like, any room fordoubt.
Carissa (27:11):
So doubt is actually a big a big part of my story. Like
I said, I'm I moved out at 24,got married, and we were in a
couple different churches that Iworked at on staff. And I I
(27:31):
actually was gonna go back toschool. I thought I wanted to be
in counseling because I had metthis woman named Karen Turner,
and she became like a mentor tome. And, she was amazing, and
she she knew she she saw thebrokenness in me before I even
realized how broken I reallywas, and she was able to sit
(27:53):
with me in that and and show mea picture of God that I hadn't
seen before, and was really ableshe she sat in the darkness with
me and then walked out of thedarkness with me.
And it was, I mean, sotransformative just to my
emotional health and, you know,just a lot of trauma responses I
had. And and so I was like,well, I wanna do that for
(28:15):
somebody else because thateverybody needs that. Whatever
that is, everybody needs that.
T.J. (28:21):
When you and Karen met, did you know was there a place?
Was there a moment of, wait, theChristian faith can be different
than the way that I was raised?And it was sort of jarring
moment. I mean, that what whatwas that like?
Carissa (28:44):
So, again, I I hadn't been able to think through
things for myself that much. Andso she would say I I would say
something, and she was like,well, Carissa, what if God is
actually like this? And I Iwould just have to sit there
with it and be like, wait. HaveI have I thought have I just
thought something wrong aboutGod my whole life, and he's
actually a lot different than Ithink he is? Because I thought
(29:06):
he was good, but I I think maybethat didn't show up as very good
in my life.
And so she she would just shewould always have a different
way of looking at what god mightbe doing in my life. Like, I'd
be thinking always trying toteach me a lesson. She'd be
like, well, what if actuallythis is what you're supposed to
(29:27):
be learning? And it was never,like, as harsh as I thought it
would be. It was never, it wasnever as legalistic as I thought
it should be.
Like, it was just it was justthis whole world of freedom.
Yeah. Just absolutely rocked mybrain.
T.J. (29:46):
Was that scary?
Carissa (29:48):
It wasn't then. It got scary later on. It was at at
that point, it was it stilldidn't she's so wise. She's
she's a really she's a reallywise woman. And so I think she
she met me where I was.
T.J. (30:04):
Mhmm. And
Carissa (30:04):
she knew that I wasn't quite ready for some of some of
the stuff that was to come. ButYeah. So so I'm thinking, well,
I I need to go to I need I needto become a counselor. And so
I'm I'm signed up for theseclasses or I'm I'm in the
process of signing up forclasses, sitting at my computer
(30:26):
one day, and I I can't push thebutton to register. And I'm just
sitting there thinking, like,god, this is so much money, and
this is so much to put my kidsthrough, so much work.
I I really need to know, like,is this a good direction for me
to be going? Because in the backof my brain, I think I'd always
had, like, seminary as somethingI wanted to do, but I'm, you
(30:49):
know, in a little town inOklahoma, and I was like, what
what am I gonna do? What am Igonna do as a girl with a
seminary degree? So I was like,I just really need to hear from
you. And I didn't tell Karenthat at all.
And 2 days later, she texted mejust out of the blue and says, I
really feel like you're supposedto be at seminary. And so I was
(31:09):
like, well, okay. There it was.And then I had another
conversation, like, the next daywhere I'm telling her where I'm
telling my friend, anotherfriend of mine, this story, and
she told me, Carissa, I was justthinking last night, seminary
really makes sense for Charissa.And so it was just really good
confirmation that that's what Iwas supposed to do.
T.J. (31:29):
Mhmm.
Carissa (31:30):
And that's where everything really started.
Because I get it I get intoseminary, and it's, you know,
amazing. And I'm learning allthese different, just all these
different perspectives acrossall kinds of, different
denominations. And I just kindastart to realize, wait. I I had
(31:56):
a very narrow exposure to whatthe faith actually could be.
And so for me, because so muchhad been so much of my faith had
been fear based, like, makingsure I believe the right thing
(32:16):
so that I don't go to hell. I'mmaking sure, you know,
everything was fear based. Sothen I get into a theology
class, and he starts talkingabout, you know, different
things that people believe aboutsalvation. And, I just at at at
(32:37):
first, it was freeing, honestly,because I was like, wait. I'm
I'm free to think other thingsthan I thought.
Mhmm. But as I kind of unwoundthat ball, I got to a place
where I was like, wait. I'veunwound this so far that I don't
I don't know what's trueanymore. And I don't know how to
choose what's true because I'venever had to sift through it for
(32:59):
myself before. I see thingsabout God, like, in the old
testament that are really hardfor me to accept, and I don't
know what to do with that.
So kind of just this hugeconvergence of, like, there's
more than you thought, andhere's some really bad things
that you thought. And there wasjust kind of this big explosion
(33:19):
of, like, I don't know ifanything about this is true
anymore, and that wasterrifying.
T.J. (33:25):
Mhmm.
Carissa (33:27):
Again, just because always in the back of my mind,
what about hell? What abouthell?
T.J. (33:34):
That divergence of moving from the novelty of being
exposed to different ideas Mhmm.Which may not have been a real
threat to your current faith.But when you started doing some
self reflecting of like, okay, Iwas raised and I was taught one
thing and now I'm in thisenvironment that is pulling back
(33:57):
some other layers of being ableto view my faith, views of God,
views of salvation. That iswhere the jarring moment is,
well, what what do I believe?
Carissa (34:13):
Yep. Yeah.
T.J. (34:14):
So how did you handle that?
Carissa (34:16):
Not very well at first. It was pretty bad. It was really
rough. Well, I always had Karen,and that goodness. The things
that that woman had to gothrough with me.
The thing that she kept sayingto me was, Carissa, I trust God
(34:40):
with you. And so I just I I hadthat as my bedrock the whole
time. So I didn't I I got tosome pretty depressive states,
and I got some to some reallyanxious states. But because I I
just had that, like, echoed inmy brain over and over, like, I
trust god with you. I I was ableto latch onto that.
(35:03):
So, like, okay, god. Whateveryou're actually like, whatever
is actually true, I think I cantrust myself with you. And I
think I can trust that eventhough I'm, like, in a whirlwind
right now, I think I trust thatyou're taking me somewhere.
T.J. (35:22):
That's a big shift between just appeasing god through your
achievements and behavior toreally letting go and looking at
the present and the near futureand going, I have no idea what
it is. That were my conduct,good or bad, has minimal
(35:42):
bearing. That's a big Yeah.That's a pretty big leap in
terms of a belief system.
Carissa (35:48):
And, you know, when I look back, it is. It's a huge
leap. And I and I think maybethe little bridges that took
that were there to make me ableto take that leap were that just
over those few years in between,like, you know, 24 and 34, there
were moments where I would beconfused about something, and
(36:11):
I'd have a a very specificquestion. And it's like a source
would come to me, like a bookmaybe, or like a, you know,
random quote on Facebook. Andit's just, like, over and over,
he would confirm something.
God would confirm something. Ieven though I wasn't, like, you
know, hearing an audible voiceor something, like, I knew he
was talking to me.
T.J. (36:31):
I
Carissa (36:31):
knew he was trying to to let me know, hey. I'm I'm
gonna get you information thatyou need. And so there were
enough of those that even thoughI still had an image of a very
harsh god, I knew he was withme. I knew he I knew he wasn't
gonna just I I I never whatevermy whatever my questions were
(36:52):
about my faith, I never doubtedthat there was a god. I maybe
doubted how good he was.
I maybe doubted I maybe doubtedhow you actually interact with
him, but I never doubted therewas a god. And I even in the
middle of the swirl, because ofall of those little moments, I
was like, okay. You're you'restill gonna communicate with me.
(37:13):
You're still gonna get meinformation that I need even if
I have none of it right now. So,yeah, that was probably and and
looking back, I can see thosemoments really clearly.
And I
T.J. (37:28):
There's not a pamphlet for every question.
Carissa (37:31):
No. There is not. And it's not definitely not an IVLP
pamphlet for every question.They tried, though. They made a
good effort.
Mhmm. They made a really goodeffort at it. But
T.J. (37:45):
Why seminary?
Carissa (37:48):
Well, I, you know, I kinda talked about how my dad
was really didactic, and thatwas that was kind of how I
connected with him was, youknow, I just love learning. And,
also, these little moments thatI've had along the way, anytime
I get just because of the way mybrain works. Anytime that I get
(38:08):
really depressed about somethingor really anxious about
something, normally, I'm justmissing I'm just
misunderstanding something, orthere's just some piece of
information that I need. And so,like I said, I wanted to be in a
therapist because I wanted tohelp people out of that the
(38:29):
depression and the anxiety andjust, like, the the brokenness
that we all live in. And Irealized for me, specifically,
that a lot of times that justcomes with good teaching.
That just comes with goodinformation. Like, that's what
helps me out with depression orthe anxiety. And that may not be
the same for everybody. But justvery specifically me, I don't
(38:52):
know in what setting, but that'show I wanna help people is give
them better information aboutGod, about what he's what he's
really like. But I didn't wantit to just be all my ideas.
That'd be a bad idea.
T.J. (39:06):
I was
Carissa (39:06):
like, I'm so seminary makes sense to me right now even
though I don't I don't knowspecifically what I'll do with
it yet. Boy,
T.J. (39:14):
those weight or those words have weight, you know, to
not become what has pained youor that you despise or that have
moved away from that full circleof repeating. You know? I've you
see it in you see it like anabuse, maybe drug addiction. But
(39:36):
maybe that could that doesn'thave to be, you know, that
extreme. It can just be a playon power.
You know? Mhmm. Yeah. Expandingthe reach of your role and your
responsibility and maybe evenyour calling beyond what you're
actually called to do. Wouldn'tit be much easier, Carissa, for
(39:58):
you to just tell me what tobelieve?
Carissa (40:01):
Yeah. You know? So another you know, this is the
Cumberland Road. So part of partof my story was that in the
right in the middle of all ofthis confusion, I wound up in
little Cumberland PresbyterianChurch
T.J. (40:17):
Mhmm.
Carissa (40:18):
In in Ada. And I would go to this Sunday school class,
and there were all of thesepeople in there that all thought
different things. Like, therewas so much room to just think.
And I had not I'd I'd beenaround it with Karen, but I
hadn't been around it withanybody else. Like, there's just
room for everybody to be workingthrough their process with God
(40:41):
in their own way, and thatabsolutely changed me.
T.J. (40:47):
Yeah. Because you went from one individual to an actual
community.
Carissa (40:51):
Yes. Yes.
T.J. (40:53):
How did you find the Cumberland Presbyterian Church?
Carissa (40:56):
Karen was already going there. She had actually grown up
in that church, and we so thechurch that I was at before
that, they were they were makingsome steps toward becoming, more
hierarchical and having onlymale leadership, and that was
really stepping on that woundof, you know, as a kid growing
(41:19):
up being told, well, you'realways gonna be under somebody
because you're a woman. And itit became really, really
painful, and I just knew, like,I cannot I can't I can't put
myself under that again.
T.J. (41:31):
Mhmm.
Carissa (41:32):
And so we we didn't know where to go. And I, I think
I went with her on Mother's Day.Then after that, I asked my
husband, like, do you want doyou wanna just try Karen's
church? He was like, yeah. Let'sdo that.
And we have not stopped. Oh mygosh. We love it so much. It's
T.J. (41:53):
So you go to Covenant Carmela Presbyterian Church in
Ada, Oklahoma, but for you, it'sKaren's church.
Carissa (42:01):
Yeah. Yes. But but I didn't know. Like I said, she
had gone there all growing up,and then she was at different
churches for a time. But Ididn't realize how that
atmosphere of, like, freedom tothink had shaped her as a
person.
Like, she was able to helppeople because she lets people
be who they are. She doesn'tneed somebody to think just like
(42:24):
her. She doesn't need somebodyto believe just like her.
There's room that just thatspace for people to have their
own journey with God. Andthat's, you know, Duane Mearns,
our pastor.
That's that's his that's hissong. That is his song every
Sunday is there's room for youhere to have your own journey
with god, and we'll be with youon it. And even, you know, my
(42:50):
friends that are there thathaven't been there that long,
that's we get together and wetalk like we have never been in
an atmosphere like this.
T.J. (42:59):
So what is that atmosphere like? What does it allow you to
do that you haven't been able tofind in other settings? What
makes it unique?
Carissa (43:10):
Well, kinda circling back to what we were talking
about with doubt. Like, you'reallowed to doubt. Doubt isn't
scary there. And so when whenyou're not motivated by fear,
you can actually I don't I don'tthink you can do true thinking
until you're not motivated byfear anymore. I don't think you
(43:32):
can really think through anissue unless you're unless
you're not trying to thinkyourself away from hell.
You know?
T.J. (43:40):
Wow. Okay. Wow. That's profound because, yeah, if I'm
scared and and maybe scared andfear is 2 different things. But
it's hard to think clearly.
And any decision I'm thinkingout loud here. Any decision made
has a sense of urgency. Yes.Yeah. But if if we're allowed to
(44:05):
relax and reflect and ponder andgiven space and time to do that,
then maybe the decision makingwould be more more healthy, more
at least more thought.
And if it's a mistake, it's amistake to own. Because because
(44:28):
if I go, well, I was rushed, orI made this decision out of
fear, or I'd made this decision,I said these words, or I didn't
say these words because I didn'tknow what the response would be,
or I don't wanna go to hell.It's different if you've had an
opportunity to kind of think itout a little bit. And, yeah, I
can think of occasions to belike, oh, man. That was a bad
(44:50):
path I took.
However, I own it because Ithought that that was the way to
go. That was the decision tomake. Yeah. It probably comes
with age too, though.
Carissa (45:03):
Yeah. A lot of things get better as I get older. I
feel that. I'm really excitedabout getting to 40. I feel like
that's gonna be a lot better.
T.J. (45:16):
So the Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Ada,
Oklahoma has allowed you tojourney and grow. So what about
the folks who haven't had thatopportunity? You know, what
about the other Carissa's in theworld? What advice would you
(45:36):
give to them if they happen tocome across this podcast and
they weren't too fearful ofgoing in the hell to listen to
it? What advice would you givethem?
Carissa (45:52):
So this is actually a really this is a question that's
really dear to me because I dohave friends who are kind of
starting this journey in intheir own churches, that aren't
the same kind of environment.And I think maybe just ask the
Lord to put to just start with aperson or a couple people who
are maybe not in the same churchwith you, but just somebody that
(46:13):
you can get in community withthat's safe, that is not going
to make you think like them,that that will trust god with
you, that will say, I I trustgod to walk with you, so I don't
need to control your process.And ask him to give you
(46:35):
community and ask him to reallyshow you that he's with you in
the process. And I I thinkpeople can make it through that.
I think people can make itthrough that transition even if
they're in a church that isn'tthat isn't that could be a
little bit safer Mhmm.
To do that.
T.J. (46:56):
So you're in seminary now. Mhmm. What do you wanna do when
you're finished with seminary?What do you think that ministry
is gonna look like? And you'renot held to your your answer
because things change.
Yeah. But, you know, ideally, ifyou had that ability in in many
(47:17):
ways that you do, what will thatministry shape? No. What shape
will the ministry take after youget done with seminary?
Carissa (47:29):
You know, I have thought about this a lot, and I
honestly could see it going afew directions because I love I
love 1 on 1 conversations a lot.
T.J. (47:39):
Mhmm.
Carissa (47:40):
Just conversations that I have right now. I love walking
through process with people 1 on1, but I also really love
teaching settings. Duane hasbeen just super supportive, and
I've had the opportunity toteach in Sunday school and teach
them Wednesday night. Actually,I on Wednesday, I taught a
(48:03):
contemplative practice for lent.So I I love that too.
So I'm still kind of in theprocess of feeling out, like,
what's even available. You know?Like, what kinds of what kinds
of things would even beavailable
T.J. (48:19):
for you.
Carissa (48:20):
I think I joked with you earlier. I have this sticker
that says, I have no idea whatI'm doing, but I'm doing it for
the lord. And that that'shonestly how I feel. I'm I'm
really I've gotten real comfywith with uncertainty, and so
I'm really okay. I'm okay notknowing exactly what I'm going
(48:40):
to do and knowing that I'm onI'm I'm in the right process,
and I'm okay with being in theright process even if I don't
know exactly what it will looklike.
T.J. (48:51):
I wanna go back just a little bit. So I imagine that
your your change away from amore controlling fundamentalist
environment. Those are my words,not yours. And then you had the
this opportunity to, look atface differently, look at the
(49:12):
world differently. I mean, werethere moments of like where you
just watched any movie that youwanted to and you just poured
pure sugar in your mouth and youknow, just that there were there
moment were there moments ofrebellion?
Or or was it was it more gradualor what? What does that look
(49:36):
like?
Carissa (49:36):
I I don't I don't know that there were moments where I
don't think there were momentswhere I'm like, I'm just gonna,
like, get it all out right now.But there I definitely saw a
change in my mind of, like,okay. I I don't think that, you
(49:58):
know, this kind of movie is asbad for me as they're saying it
is. And so, like, I would watchand maybe watch some more, and
then just naturally, I'd belike, I don't really feel that
great when I watch that movie.
T.J. (50:08):
Mhmm.
Carissa (50:08):
And so just kind of so, like, maybe a little bit. I
mean, I definitely did thingsthat neither your IBLP teachings
nor my dad specifically wouldprobably think we're that great,
but it was almost there wasthere was a lot of, like it's
(50:30):
just self regulation. Like, ifyou if you're not motivated by
fear anymore, then you canreally start to listen to, like,
what does my spirit actuallywant? Like, my spirit doesn't
want to, you know, watchsomething that just makes me
terrified all the time, forinstance. Like, for instance,
I'll never I'll never watch,like, a like a like a horror
(50:51):
movie would never be, like,appealing to me.
I'd never be like, well, that'sgonna send you to hell if you
watch a horror movie. But at thesame time, I I I think I just
started to learn to just trustmyself and not be led by not be
led by a lot of rules in generaland just kinda trust that the
(51:12):
spirit of God within me candirect me pretty well.
T.J. (51:15):
And and being able to discern what we think we need at
that time. You know? And thenthere's a difference between,
like, need and want. You know,what do I need to help get me
through this day? You know, whatdo I need when I'm looking at
entertainment?
You know, what do I expect frommy, you know, something that's
intended to be fun, you know.But what what is my threshold on
(51:40):
what that what that means? Yeah.I and I Yeah. I think that comes
with adulthood as well, but alsoas we mature in the faith.
So with that in mind, what kindof books, what kind of music are
you listening to, what kind ofmovies in your life that are
speaking to you now. They can besomething that you watched or or
(52:03):
read, a time back, but somethingthat has spoken to you that you
would recommend.
Carissa (52:10):
Let's see. So books. I am a reader. I love reading.
Peter Inns wrote this bookcalled the sin of certainty, and
that book saved my life.
I think I've used saved my lifea lot during a lot during this
podcast.
T.J. (52:26):
You've been saved
Carissa (52:27):
a lot. Yeah. I have.
T.J. (52:29):
I really
Carissa (52:30):
have. But it just reading it, I think I can even
imagine him having those samepatterns of fear that I have.
And then just in such ascholarly way, like, walks you
out of that. Like, you you don'thave to be sure about
everything. It's okay to havesome doubts.
It's okay to rethink somethings. And the way that he the
(52:53):
way that he frames it, bothbiblically and historically, are
just amazing. So that's a greatbook. This, you know, this is an
old one. This I missed this onethe first go around, though,
because the circle that I was insaid it was heretical.
But, the shack and, actually,one of my seminary professors
(53:15):
recommended it to me when Ifirst started going through
this. But, you know, I kindasaid I had these moments where I
knew that to I I identified theholy spirit as the one who's
bringing me this informationthat I really, really needed. So
I remember talking to him, and Iall said, I, you know, I really
feel like the holy spirit isreally good, but I don't know
(53:37):
about God. I don't know aboutGod the father. And so he well,
he had act he asked thequestion, but so he recommended
The Shack to me, and that bookmessed me up.
It did. I was crying for, like,3 days. Like, you actually are
good. But it was
T.J. (53:59):
I don't think I've heard anybody say that the Shaq has
messed them up.
Carissa (54:04):
Oh my gosh. I was I was a mess. But he just so is so
good at showing how, you know,the trinity. They're all the
same. Like, if you if you havefelt the goodness of one of
them, you can know the goodnessof all of them.
(54:25):
Let's see. Another book. I hadanother one that I was thinking.
That's it. Oh, it's a Rob Bellbook, and I think it's what is
the Bible by Rob Bell.
And I was you know, like I said,I had gotten to this point where
I was like, I don't know if Ilike the old testament god very
much. And I when I read thatbook, he had such a different
(54:48):
way of reading the Bible, andthat was one of those things
that I needed. I only knew oneway of reading the Bible, and he
gave me another way to read thebible, and I needed that. So
those 3. Also, in terms ofthings to watch, this isn't
necessarily, like, a specificrecommendation, but I have
(55:09):
really gotten into, like,historical series.
And I think it's because theconditions were so horrible,
like, so so bad, like, justbarbaric times. And when I think
about the process of God makingall things new, I think that
(55:29):
makes it real to me because Ican see in real time, oh, like,
humanity was horrific, and we'vealready come this far. And we
can even come further becausehe's always saving everything.
Like, he's making everythingnew. And so those even though
they're really dark to
T.J. (55:45):
watch, they're somehow really
Carissa (55:45):
encouraging to me. So, wall, but
T.J. (55:55):
How about music? You said that, growing up, your your
family was musically inclinedYeah. For pleasure and not for
church or anything like that?Because you you play in the the
church band, right, or sing orparticipate or Yeah.
Carissa (56:10):
Yeah. I sing and play piano every once in a while.
T.J. (56:12):
What kind of music do you like, more for pleasure, or is
it the same?
Carissa (56:18):
Actually, I told somebody, I missed out on all
pop culture. Just all of it.Just got none of it. So I'm
discovering bands that probablyeverybody's known about for
forever. But, the 1975, I cannotstop listening to the 1975, and
I am a little bit obsessive.
So I'm kinda just stuck on themright now and haven't discovered
(56:38):
that many more, but I'm sure Iwill. Yeah.
T.J. (56:44):
Well, thank you so much, Carissa, for opening up the
doors to your life and walkingme through a space that I am
unfamiliar with, you know, anexperience that, is is new to me
and for bearing it all. And, andI'm I'm excited for your
(57:10):
seminary experience and whatministry will look like for you
in the coming months.
Carissa (57:15):
Well, thank you. I had a great time.
T.J. (57:20):
Thank you for listening to this episode of Cumberland Road.
In closing, I leave with you thewords from author and Episcopal
Bishop John Shelby Spall. Thosewhose religious security is
rooted in a literal bible do notwant that security disturbed.
(57:41):
They are not happy when factschallenge their biblical
understanding or when nuances inthe text are introduced or when
they are forced to deal witheither contradictions or
changing insights. The Bible, asthey understand it, shares in
(58:02):
the permanence and certainty ofGod and convinces them that they
are right and justifies theenormous fear and even
negativity that lies so close tothe surface and fundamentalistic
religion.
For biblical literalists, thereis always an enemy, an enemy to
(58:24):
be defeated in mortal combat.Thanks for listening.
You're listening to the Cumberland Road, and I'm your
host, TJ Malinoski. Thefollowing is a faith
conversation with Carissa Welch,a seminary student and a member
of Covenant CumberlandPresbyterian Church in Oklahoma.
(00:26):
Carissa was raised in adifferent environment than
myself, and I was interested inhearing her journey. She comes
from a fundamentalist Christianupbringing where clothing, food,
and intake of anythingconsidered worldly was measured
with suspicion and and perhapseven evil. Carissa's experience
(00:51):
can serve as a cautionary tale,a warning that the Christian
faith can be manipulated into aform of mental bondage. A
conversation with Carissa has mereflecting on what faith in
Jesus Christ can be. For me,faith in Christ is an invite to
(01:16):
the experience of God into newpossibilities. To live, to love,
and to be. I hope to have morefaith conversations like this in
the future. Here is the faithjourney of Carissa Welch.
(01:39):
So do you come from a big familyor a small family? How many
siblings do you have?
Carissa (01:46):
I have got 7 brothers. I'm, I'm 34. My big brother is
gonna be 36 next month, and Ihave brothers that just stair
step all the way down to 14years old.
T.J. (01:59):
Yeah. What is a household like with that many children? Is
there places to hide when youwere growing up? Did you have
space of your own?
Carissa (02:09):
Well, I mean, I was the only girl, so I got my own room.
But it was definitely, like, arace to the bathrooms in the
morning to see who could get inthe shower when there was still
hot water. There's always, like,you know, random wrestling
matches worked through a lot ofinterpersonal problems. It was
(02:31):
fun. It was fun.
We worked through a lot ofinterpersonal problems.
T.J. (02:42):
This sounds like a silly question, but how did you get
from a to b? How did you get tothe store or to church? Does
everybody fit in one vehicle, ordo you have to take 2?
Carissa (02:55):
I learned how to drive in a 15 passenger van. Not a
good driver. It was not a goodexperience. But now I get in a
car, and I'm like, oh, this iseasy to drive. I can get this
anywhere. I can fit in any spotwith this thing.
T.J. (03:12):
Okay. So you did the big van. You did the 15 passenger
van.
Carissa (03:17):
Yes. Yes. We did. And then on long trips, because
there were so many benches, shewould make sure there was a
space in between every twopeople so that there were no
fights in the van on the way toour destination.
T.J. (03:32):
Well, did you label your family van? Did you, like, put
on the side of it your familyname? Or
Carissa (03:38):
We didn't.
T.J. (03:40):
Okay.
Carissa (03:41):
It it, we should've done that. That would've been a
good idea.
T.J. (03:45):
I know. I'm asking jokingly. Most people don't even
know. Can you be kinda neat?
Carissa (03:52):
Oh, man.
T.J. (03:53):
You could've made up some band name or sports team name.
Carissa (03:58):
We could have. We, we were a band. We all played
instruments, so we we definitelyshould've done that. We missed
an opportunity there.
T.J. (04:08):
So what was your upbringing like? Was your
household did you have faith,you know, Christian faith? Or
Carissa (04:17):
Yeah. My dad was actually he was a pastor. Well,
when I was a little baby, he wasa missionary. My parents met
when my dad was teaching in abible school, and then they got
married. We moved overseas, Andwe lived in Singapore for 5
years and then came back, and heimmediately started pastoring.
(04:39):
And so you hear the classicstories of, like, the pastor's
kids, you know, being crazy andbut that really wasn't us
because we were all terrified.We were all scared to death of
going to hell, and so we we wewere pretty lined out. We were
we were some pretty straightlaced kids for the most part.
(05:02):
But we definitely there therewas this really odd mix of faith
in that we were so scared ofhell, but we saw really real
experiences around us the wholetime. Like, we knew that we knew
that that my dad really lovedGod. We knew that he loved the
(05:23):
bible. It was just it was areally, honestly confusing
experience to watch kind ofthose two things at the same
time. Like, this man who talkedabout, like, a really, you know,
really loving relationship withGod, and then also we're just
you know, we're we're terrifiedall the time of of God. It was
(05:47):
it formed a lot about us in ourearly years, I think.
T.J. (05:52):
What were those tensions like? Because I would imagine
that you have the tensions ofloving God, but also being
fearful. But also, kind of theviewpoint looking at the world,
the world is a wonderful place,but also something that has evil
or things to be feared. Mhmm.Did you grow up in that kind of
environment that I mean, it'skind of a dichotomy, love but
(06:14):
yet hate, fear yet, you know,compassion.
That Yeah. That can mess with akid's head. It can mess with an
adult's head. Did you have anexperience like that?
Carissa (06:28):
Yeah. I well, so what what you're saying about, like,
the world just looking evil, wewere it was like every decision
in our lives was made kind oftrying to be protective. So,
like, we were homeschooledbecause, because of influences
(06:49):
that could be in public schools.I mean, teaching that could be
in public schools. The thingsthat we would watch at home,
like, I mean, cuss words, we'regonna cuss words are like, like,
definitely don't murder anybody.
Also, definitely do not cuss. SoYou know, every
T.J. (07:08):
Let me let me interrupt you for a minute. So how were
those television shows, movies,How were they curated? Like, how
did how did they say these arethe movies that are approved.
These are the ones that are notapproved.
Carissa (07:25):
We had we had resources. We had there are
websites that will do reviewsand kind of tell you everything
that's in a movie. We have thisthing called a cuss box that you
would plug into your TV. And
T.J. (07:38):
Yes. See, I didn't wanna lead into you know, my question
was loaded. I've heard of those.I've seen those.
Carissa (07:47):
Yeah. We had those.
T.J. (07:48):
Okay.
Carissa (07:50):
We had that. It would, it would mute. It would mute the
show every time there was a cussword. And, And, I mean, you
know, there were some moviesthat, you know, once you get to
a certain rating, we're just noteven gonna try to watch that.
But everything was done in mindwith, like, the the world is a
scary bad place, and you don'tyou don't wanna interact with it
(08:11):
very much.
And so and so, also, when theworld is a scary bad place, it's
a lot easier to talk people intointo theologies that are
supposed to be protective, butare really just, really
restrictive and sometimesoutright abusive. So, you know,
(08:40):
we were homeschooled, and thenalso I was I was the only girl.
So I saw a big differencebetween how how I was allowed to
kind of move around in the worldand how my brothers were allowed
to move around in the world.
T.J. (08:59):
What were the differences?
Carissa (09:03):
Well, here's an example. I remember one time I
was I was talking with my dadabout something, and I was
really upset and, like, tryingto make my point. I remember him
going, Carissa, you are alwaysgonna have to submit to somebody
because one day you're gonna bemarried, and you're just gonna
have to submit to him. So So youmight as well just learn to
submit now. And I just rememberthinking, what about this guy?
(09:26):
What about what about mybrother? Like, he's that that
can't be that can't be a goodreason for telling somebody to
just listen without thinkingthrough something. Like, it
can't just be that for the restof your life, you're gonna have
to listen to somebody else. Andand I didn't even realize then
where that teaching had comefrom. There I'm sure a lot of
(09:51):
people have watched shiny happypeople.
We were not IDLP, but my dad wasreally influenced by the IBLP
teachings. There's this wholeteaching about the umbrella of
authority, and it's Jesus at thetop, and then it's the dad, the
husband, and then the wife'sunder him, and then the kids are
under that. And it's it's kindof, again, it's supposed to be
(10:16):
protective because everything'sscary. Everything's dangerous.
And so you're supposed to have,like, all these layers of
protection, but it just Well itwire.
T.J. (10:27):
For for our listeners, like, before we had this
conversation, one of thehomework assignments I had was
to, watch a documentary on, Ithink it's on Amazon Prime,
called Shiny Happy People. Mhmm.And it's based upon a family.
You have to help me. The
Carissa (10:49):
The Duggars.
T.J. (10:50):
The Duggars families, there is
Carissa (10:51):
Yeah.
T.J. (10:52):
Had, like, a reality TV show on TLC Discovery Channel.
All this missed me. It justwasn't a television show I was
interested in. In. But anyway,for perspective, they are they
were and are part of a Christianorganization called Institute in
(11:12):
Basic Life Principles.
Carissa (11:14):
Mhmm.
T.J. (11:15):
And it's a Christian organization. It's been around
for quite some time. I think, 91960, 61, somewhere pretty
early. And, so anyway, one ofthe principles talks about the
umbrellas. There there isdifferent things that fall under
an umbrella.
And I know after watching thedocumentary series, because,
(11:36):
like, umbrella would besomething that I would talk
about, like, oh, we fall underthis big tent or this big
umbrella. Yeah. I don't use thatanymore. Yeah. But at any rate,
so there, this is a Christianorganization that your family
was familiar with or aware of oror
Carissa (11:57):
Yeah. My dad would host the conferences every once in a
while at his church. And I thinkhe probably he and Bill Gothard
are both from Illinois and thatso he probably was exposed to
his his stuff pretty early on.Mhmm. Just the circles that he
was in. But but yeah. So I Igrew up influenced by the
(12:20):
teachings of that without evenknowing that's where it came
from.
T.J. (12:25):
How detailed, is the, institute in basic life
principles in the in the day today life of a member? Like, how
how deep does it go? I mean,beyond just saying I would
imagine this is, you know,Carissa, be a good person. Be
polite to the people that youencounter. I mean, is it that
(12:45):
superficial or is it more likedown to, like, the socks that
you wear, like, the color of it?
How detailed does that get?
Carissa (12:53):
I remember we had, like, big folders of all of
these teachings from from theinstitute, and it was, like,
there was there was a there wasa little pamphlet for
everything. There were pamphletsfor how much sugar you should
eat. There were pamphlets. Noway. Yes.
There were pamphlets definitelyabout, like, authority, and it
(13:17):
it it it touches every area oflife. And even the way that that
played out, I've hadconversations now as an adult
where I realized, like, oh, youyou're in all of your things
don't touch each other. Like, inin my brain, when I'm talking
(13:37):
about when I'm talking aboutclothes that I wear or at least
up until a few years ago, if I'mthinking about clothes that I
wear, I can't think about thatwithout thinking about my face.
If I'm thinking about what I'meating, I can't it's hard to
think about that withoutassigning moral judgment to it.
Every everything in your lifebecomes a moral decision, And
(14:02):
that is exhausting.
It is I mean, just it's it'sbondage. It is mental bondage to
everything in your life carryingso much weight that it's you
know, what you're gonna put inyour mouth is gonna take you
further away from God or closerto God. Wow. Or just every
(14:25):
everything became a life ordeath decision. Everything.
And and I saw that play out inmy life, in my brother's lives.
It's just everything was, it wasalmost like religious OCD. Like,
you can't you can't think athought about anything without
thinking, am I breaking aprinciple here? Am I defying
authority here? Am I it it wasemotionally taxing to say the
(14:50):
least.
Mentally taxing emotionally.
T.J. (14:53):
So these different scenarios from what you eat,
clothing, decision making, arethese measured against from your
experience, are these measuredagainst, like, the rules from
the pamphlets and the teachingsfrom from the organization? Or
is this more welled up from godwill be angered? You know, where
(15:17):
do you think this is, you know,looking back? Well, I now know
that you're no longer a part ofthat. I don't want to jump to
that part of the story.
But, you know, where's where arethese measurements coming from?
Is it it's hard for me to it'shard for me to wrap my brain
around. I mean Yeah. The senseof guilt and things like that, I
(15:39):
mean, I think that covers, anyfaith perspective. You know,
it's not just, you know, somenarrow sector organization.
You know, it's in Christianity.I think it's another face as
well. But that can also be sostifling that there is no room
(15:59):
for growth.
Carissa (16:01):
Yeah. So while we didn't follow everything from
the IBLP pamphlets, that centralteaching of authority, In in
shiny happy people, there's astatement made that every every
father becomes their own cultthe the cult leader of their own
(16:21):
home, and that's kind of was itwhat it was. So so, yes, there
were some standards set up fromIBLP, and we we didn't take
like, we didn't I didn't have towear dresses, but I definitely
had a modesty code that I had tofollow. And it was pretty strict
at some points in my life, andit would change because when
(16:43):
every when every dad is the cultleader of their own home, then
every home kind of gets theirown specific rules according to
whatever the dad thinks. And somy dad kind of we had influences
from my BLP, but then we alsohad influences from, like, a
Pentecostal holiness background.
(17:03):
So, you know, we didn't watch alot of movies. We didn't we
didn't there there depending onwhat his what his feelings were
at the time, that woulddetermine what we were or we're
not allowed to do. So sometimeshe might be feeling a little
freer, and we could suddenlywatch a couple movies. And then
(17:25):
all of a sudden, he he has aconviction that changes, then
we're, like, you know, back tonothing. Like, at at one point,
we could watch the lord of therings, and then at one point, we
couldn't because, there's aspirit of fear that is you know,
it's just kind of verysubjective.
So so we didn't we didn't haveto follow everything that was in
the IBLP, but we absolutely hadto follow and kind of always be
(17:52):
thinking through what would dadthink about this. And so as a
result of that, you don't youdon't learn to reason through
things for yourself. You don'tlearn to listen to the holy
spirit for yourself. And Iunderstand that at some level,
like, yes, a dad and a momtogether, not just the dad. The
dad and the mom are there tohelp guide the kids, but it just
(18:15):
it takes it to a different levelwhere you real you truly don't
learn to think through thingscritically until you're older.
T.J. (18:23):
Yeah. It makes me wonder listening. You know, there's a
distinction between God and aparent. For me, as a child and
as a youth, you want to pleaseyour parents. But my parents
weren't God.
So it seems like a strangeenvironment as in, did you you
(18:46):
know, growing up, did you have arelationship with God and could
you envision a relationship offaith without your parents?
Because to me that seems like abiblical principle in terms of,
you know, having what do theycall it now? Like a generational
faith. Oh, my parents went tochurch, you know, they were
people of faith, so I'm a personof faith because of that. This
(19:10):
is like the other end of thatsame spectrum though, I would
think is I have a faith, but itit gets channeled through the
approval rating of, a father ormother figure or both.
Carissa (19:23):
Yeah. So how that played out in my life was,
again, I I know my dad knew God.I I know that whatever whatever
things were given to me,whatever all of the baggage that
I may have, I know that he lovedGod, and I know that he I I saw
(19:44):
things in his life that I knowwere the work of God. And so I
saw that and I really latched onto it. And I was like, I know
that's possible.
I know I can learn to know God.Mhmm. But I couldn't. I couldn't
at home because of exactly whatyou're saying. I if I thought
(20:04):
something about God, I had tomake sure it lined up with what
dad thought about God.
If I, if I needed to make adecision and I needed to decide,
well, is god leading me to dothis? Am I would this be a good
decision? I even even incollege. So when I I was over
18, I couldn't make a decisionwithout thinking, well, he's my
(20:30):
authority. So if he's if hedoesn't if he doesn't think this
is right, then it cannot beGod's will because he's my he's
my umbrella of protection.
And so, yeah, I was I was scaredto do anything or think anything
or believe anything that did notline up with what he thought.
T.J. (20:51):
There's a difference between, a teenager, young adult
going to their parents for,kinda, counsel and advice. Like
Mhmm. In college, you know, Imean, some families are tight.
You can be like, hey, this isthe classes I'm thinking about
taking so that I can get, youknow, move towards degree x or
(21:12):
y. Mhmm.
And, you know, you get feedbackthat way. But what you're
describing is that this isdifferent.
Carissa (21:20):
Yeah. It was it was it was on another level. For
instance, I have I mean, thinkabout just going to a a trusted
friend now. Like, I feel likethat's probably how most adult
kids would go to their parents.It's like, I, you know, I know
you've lived a lot of life.
I value your opinion. Mhmm. Butit it you're right. It was not
(21:42):
that. It was if if he doesn'tthink this is the will of God,
this is not the will of God.
If he doesn't think this is atrue belief about God, this is
not a true belief about God. Andso, yeah, I I I got married at
24 and lived at home until then.And only I think I I think I
(22:07):
lived outside of the house for,like, a month before I got
married because my family movedaway, and so I moved in with a
friend until I got married. Butuntil then, I I didn't even
start to be able to kind of havemy own relationship with God.
You know?
That was not that was nottotally dependent on, on him.
(22:32):
And goodness. Thank Jesus. Imarried a man who did not he
didn't buy into any of that. Helike, there was there was not he
if I told him he was supposed tobe the umbrella, he'd be like,
what?
There there was nothing in himthat wanted to that wanted to
(22:53):
direct me in that way or, he'she's the man with the least
control issues I've ever seen inmy whole life. So that was
really healing for me. I wasfinally able to start thinking
through things for myself.
T.J. (23:07):
Mhmm. So looking back into your childhood, teenage years up
until 24 ish, what were some ofthe, takeaways that made Carissa
who she is and has informed yourdecision making, going on in in
your life. And these could be, Idon't know, Christmas memories,
(23:30):
Yeah. Birthdays.
Carissa (23:32):
So, every Friday night, we would have game night, you
know, with just a gaggle ofpeople.
T.J. (23:44):
Like board games?
Carissa (23:46):
Yes. Yes. Every Friday night was board game night, and
me and my brothers would sitaround with my parents, and we'd
just play games all night. Andit was, like, just such good
team building. Mhmm.
That's still one of my favoritethings to do is play play board
games because of that.
T.J. (24:04):
Were playing cards were playing cards acceptable?
Carissa (24:08):
Yep. Yeah. They were. Okay. I knew you.
Yep.
T.J. (24:11):
What a liberal household you grew up in.
Carissa (24:16):
Yeah. And then, also, this one's a little abstract,
but I my dad loved learning, andI really picked that up from
him. Like, I was laughing atmyself the other day because,
like, I'm sitting at my deskright now, and there's are just
stacks and stacks of books. AndI, like, just the how nerdy he
(24:38):
got about word studies and, thatwas just always a thing in our
house. Like, we were alwayslearning something, and I am so,
so thankful for that.
T.J. (24:50):
Did you have theological discussions in the household? I
mean, being in the minister'sfamily and being in a in a
pretty good sized family interms of numbers. Mhmm. Did you
guys have, like, theologicaldiscussions about what the
biblical text was talking aboutthat maybe weren't necessarily,
(25:11):
like, teaching elements of,like, this is who you should be,
this is who you should behave,but, like, the meaning of the
text and how it speaks to thepeople in the household.
Carissa (25:23):
I mean, we would have, like, periodic family devotions,
and my dad was just verydidactic in general. So, yeah,
he would he would talk about,you know, different passages
with us, and we'd have to do,like, memory verses together.
And, and then, you know, everySaturday night, he'd be sitting
(25:43):
at the at the kitchen tablewriting his sermons. He'd been
work writing it all week, andhe'd be wrapping it up on
Saturday night. Mhmm.
And so he'd kinda, like, preacha sermon to me as and, like and
I'd get to give, you know,feedback, like explain this
better. How does this work? Sothat was cool too. So, yeah, I
was everything was a teachingmoment all the time.
T.J. (26:08):
Well, that's a value moment as in Yeah. You know, if
you're practicing your sermonthat way, you're asking for
input. And that's a hard thingto do.
Carissa (26:19):
Yeah. Yeah. It is. He he would he would write out his
sermons almost like word forword, but then he'd kinda get up
and give them not memorized, buthe just knew that he knew it
well enough at that point thathe could do it without looking
at his notes much. But yeah.
T.J. (26:39):
Well, how did your growing up years and kinda you had
mentioned earlier about, fear,making mistakes, were some of
the terms that you used. How didthis not just completely turn
you off to the Christian faith?
Carissa (26:58):
So,
T.J. (27:00):
because there didn't seem to be much of a gray area.
You're either all in or not atall. It doesn't seem like
there's, like, any room fordoubt.
Carissa (27:11):
So doubt is actually a big a big part of my story. Like
I said, I'm I moved out at 24,got married, and we were in a
couple different churches that Iworked at on staff. And I I
(27:31):
actually was gonna go back toschool. I thought I wanted to be
in counseling because I had metthis woman named Karen Turner,
and she became like a mentor tome. And, she was amazing, and
she she knew she she saw thebrokenness in me before I even
realized how broken I reallywas, and she was able to sit
(27:53):
with me in that and and show mea picture of God that I hadn't
seen before, and was really ableshe she sat in the darkness with
me and then walked out of thedarkness with me.
And it was, I mean, sotransformative just to my
emotional health and, you know,just a lot of trauma responses I
had. And and so I was like,well, I wanna do that for
(28:15):
somebody else because thateverybody needs that. Whatever
that is, everybody needs that.
T.J. (28:21):
When you and Karen met, did you know was there a place?
Was there a moment of, wait, theChristian faith can be different
than the way that I was raised?And it was sort of jarring
moment. I mean, that what whatwas that like?
Carissa (28:44):
So, again, I I hadn't been able to think through
things for myself that much. Andso she would say I I would say
something, and she was like,well, Carissa, what if God is
actually like this? And I Iwould just have to sit there
with it and be like, wait. HaveI have I thought have I just
thought something wrong aboutGod my whole life, and he's
actually a lot different than Ithink he is? Because I thought
(29:06):
he was good, but I I think maybethat didn't show up as very good
in my life.
And so she she would just shewould always have a different
way of looking at what god mightbe doing in my life. Like, I'd
be thinking always trying toteach me a lesson. She'd be
like, well, what if actuallythis is what you're supposed to
(29:27):
be learning? And it was never,like, as harsh as I thought it
would be. It was never, it wasnever as legalistic as I thought
it should be.
Like, it was just it was justthis whole world of freedom.
Yeah. Just absolutely rocked mybrain.
T.J. (29:46):
Was that scary?
Carissa (29:48):
It wasn't then. It got scary later on. It was at at
that point, it was it stilldidn't she's so wise. She's
she's a really she's a reallywise woman. And so I think she
she met me where I was.
T.J. (30:04):
Mhmm. And
Carissa (30:04):
she knew that I wasn't quite ready for some of some of
the stuff that was to come. ButYeah. So so I'm thinking, well,
I I need to go to I need I needto become a counselor. And so
I'm I'm signed up for theseclasses or I'm I'm in the
process of signing up forclasses, sitting at my computer
(30:26):
one day, and I I can't push thebutton to register. And I'm just
sitting there thinking, like,god, this is so much money, and
this is so much to put my kidsthrough, so much work.
I I really need to know, like,is this a good direction for me
to be going? Because in the backof my brain, I think I'd always
had, like, seminary as somethingI wanted to do, but I'm, you
(30:49):
know, in a little town inOklahoma, and I was like, what
what am I gonna do? What am Igonna do as a girl with a
seminary degree? So I was like,I just really need to hear from
you. And I didn't tell Karenthat at all.
And 2 days later, she texted mejust out of the blue and says, I
really feel like you're supposedto be at seminary. And so I was
(31:09):
like, well, okay. There it was.And then I had another
conversation, like, the next daywhere I'm telling her where I'm
telling my friend, anotherfriend of mine, this story, and
she told me, Carissa, I was justthinking last night, seminary
really makes sense for Charissa.And so it was just really good
confirmation that that's what Iwas supposed to do.
T.J. (31:29):
Mhmm.
Carissa (31:30):
And that's where everything really started.
Because I get it I get intoseminary, and it's, you know,
amazing. And I'm learning allthese different, just all these
different perspectives acrossall kinds of, different
denominations. And I just kindastart to realize, wait. I I had
(31:56):
a very narrow exposure to whatthe faith actually could be.
And so for me, because so muchhad been so much of my faith had
been fear based, like, makingsure I believe the right thing
(32:16):
so that I don't go to hell. I'mmaking sure, you know,
everything was fear based. Sothen I get into a theology
class, and he starts talkingabout, you know, different
things that people believe aboutsalvation. And, I just at at at
(32:37):
first, it was freeing, honestly,because I was like, wait. I'm
I'm free to think other thingsthan I thought.
Mhmm. But as I kind of unwoundthat ball, I got to a place
where I was like, wait. I'veunwound this so far that I don't
I don't know what's trueanymore. And I don't know how to
choose what's true because I'venever had to sift through it for
(32:59):
myself before. I see thingsabout God, like, in the old
testament that are really hardfor me to accept, and I don't
know what to do with that.
So kind of just this hugeconvergence of, like, there's
more than you thought, andhere's some really bad things
that you thought. And there wasjust kind of this big explosion
(33:19):
of, like, I don't know ifanything about this is true
anymore, and that wasterrifying.
T.J. (33:25):
Mhmm.
Carissa (33:27):
Again, just because always in the back of my mind,
what about hell? What abouthell?
T.J. (33:34):
That divergence of moving from the novelty of being
exposed to different ideas Mhmm.Which may not have been a real
threat to your current faith.But when you started doing some
self reflecting of like, okay, Iwas raised and I was taught one
thing and now I'm in thisenvironment that is pulling back
(33:57):
some other layers of being ableto view my faith, views of God,
views of salvation. That iswhere the jarring moment is,
well, what what do I believe?
Carissa (34:13):
Yep. Yeah.
T.J. (34:14):
So how did you handle that?
Carissa (34:16):
Not very well at first. It was pretty bad. It was really
rough. Well, I always had Karen,and that goodness. The things
that that woman had to gothrough with me.
The thing that she kept sayingto me was, Carissa, I trust God
(34:40):
with you. And so I just I I hadthat as my bedrock the whole
time. So I didn't I I got tosome pretty depressive states,
and I got some to some reallyanxious states. But because I I
just had that, like, echoed inmy brain over and over, like, I
trust god with you. I I was ableto latch onto that.
(35:03):
So, like, okay, god. Whateveryou're actually like, whatever
is actually true, I think I cantrust myself with you. And I
think I can trust that eventhough I'm, like, in a whirlwind
right now, I think I trust thatyou're taking me somewhere.
T.J. (35:22):
That's a big shift between just appeasing god through your
achievements and behavior toreally letting go and looking at
the present and the near futureand going, I have no idea what
it is. That were my conduct,good or bad, has minimal
(35:42):
bearing. That's a big Yeah.That's a pretty big leap in
terms of a belief system.
Carissa (35:48):
And, you know, when I look back, it is. It's a huge
leap. And I and I think maybethe little bridges that took
that were there to make me ableto take that leap were that just
over those few years in between,like, you know, 24 and 34, there
were moments where I would beconfused about something, and
(36:11):
I'd have a a very specificquestion. And it's like a source
would come to me, like a bookmaybe, or like a, you know,
random quote on Facebook. Andit's just, like, over and over,
he would confirm something.
God would confirm something. Ieven though I wasn't, like, you
know, hearing an audible voiceor something, like, I knew he
was talking to me.
T.J. (36:31):
I
Carissa (36:31):
knew he was trying to to let me know, hey. I'm I'm
gonna get you information thatyou need. And so there were
enough of those that even thoughI still had an image of a very
harsh god, I knew he was withme. I knew he I knew he wasn't
gonna just I I I never whatevermy whatever my questions were
(36:52):
about my faith, I never doubtedthat there was a god. I maybe
doubted how good he was.
I maybe doubted I maybe doubtedhow you actually interact with
him, but I never doubted therewas a god. And I even in the
middle of the swirl, because ofall of those little moments, I
was like, okay. You're you'restill gonna communicate with me.
(37:13):
You're still gonna get meinformation that I need even if
I have none of it right now. So,yeah, that was probably and and
looking back, I can see thosemoments really clearly.
And I
T.J. (37:28):
There's not a pamphlet for every question.
Carissa (37:31):
No. There is not. And it's not definitely not an IVLP
pamphlet for every question.They tried, though. They made a
good effort.
Mhmm. They made a really goodeffort at it. But
T.J. (37:45):
Why seminary?
Carissa (37:48):
Well, I, you know, I kinda talked about how my dad
was really didactic, and thatwas that was kind of how I
connected with him was, youknow, I just love learning. And,
also, these little moments thatI've had along the way, anytime
I get just because of the way mybrain works. Anytime that I get
(38:08):
really depressed about somethingor really anxious about
something, normally, I'm justmissing I'm just
misunderstanding something, orthere's just some piece of
information that I need. And so,like I said, I wanted to be in a
therapist because I wanted tohelp people out of that the
(38:29):
depression and the anxiety andjust, like, the the brokenness
that we all live in. And Irealized for me, specifically,
that a lot of times that justcomes with good teaching.
That just comes with goodinformation. Like, that's what
helps me out with depression orthe anxiety. And that may not be
the same for everybody. But justvery specifically me, I don't
(38:52):
know in what setting, but that'show I wanna help people is give
them better information aboutGod, about what he's what he's
really like. But I didn't wantit to just be all my ideas.
That'd be a bad idea.
T.J. (39:06):
I was
Carissa (39:06):
like, I'm so seminary makes sense to me right now even
though I don't I don't knowspecifically what I'll do with
it yet. Boy,
T.J. (39:14):
those weight or those words have weight, you know, to
not become what has pained youor that you despise or that have
moved away from that full circleof repeating. You know? I've you
see it in you see it like anabuse, maybe drug addiction. But
(39:36):
maybe that could that doesn'thave to be, you know, that
extreme. It can just be a playon power.
You know? Mhmm. Yeah. Expandingthe reach of your role and your
responsibility and maybe evenyour calling beyond what you're
actually called to do. Wouldn'tit be much easier, Carissa, for
(39:58):
you to just tell me what tobelieve?
Carissa (40:01):
Yeah. You know? So another you know, this is the
Cumberland Road. So part of partof my story was that in the
right in the middle of all ofthis confusion, I wound up in
little Cumberland PresbyterianChurch
T.J. (40:17):
Mhmm.
Carissa (40:18):
In in Ada. And I would go to this Sunday school class,
and there were all of thesepeople in there that all thought
different things. Like, therewas so much room to just think.
And I had not I'd I'd beenaround it with Karen, but I
hadn't been around it withanybody else. Like, there's just
room for everybody to be workingthrough their process with God
(40:41):
in their own way, and thatabsolutely changed me.
T.J. (40:47):
Yeah. Because you went from one individual to an actual
community.
Carissa (40:51):
Yes. Yes.
T.J. (40:53):
How did you find the Cumberland Presbyterian Church?
Carissa (40:56):
Karen was already going there. She had actually grown up
in that church, and we so thechurch that I was at before
that, they were they were makingsome steps toward becoming, more
hierarchical and having onlymale leadership, and that was
really stepping on that woundof, you know, as a kid growing
(41:19):
up being told, well, you'realways gonna be under somebody
because you're a woman. And itit became really, really
painful, and I just knew, like,I cannot I can't I can't put
myself under that again.
T.J. (41:31):
Mhmm.
Carissa (41:32):
And so we we didn't know where to go. And I, I think
I went with her on Mother's Day.Then after that, I asked my
husband, like, do you want doyou wanna just try Karen's
church? He was like, yeah. Let'sdo that.
And we have not stopped. Oh mygosh. We love it so much. It's
T.J. (41:53):
So you go to Covenant Carmela Presbyterian Church in
Ada, Oklahoma, but for you, it'sKaren's church.
Carissa (42:01):
Yeah. Yes. But but I didn't know. Like I said, she
had gone there all growing up,and then she was at different
churches for a time. But Ididn't realize how that
atmosphere of, like, freedom tothink had shaped her as a
person.
Like, she was able to helppeople because she lets people
be who they are. She doesn'tneed somebody to think just like
(42:24):
her. She doesn't need somebodyto believe just like her.
There's room that just thatspace for people to have their
own journey with God. Andthat's, you know, Duane Mearns,
our pastor.
That's that's his that's hissong. That is his song every
Sunday is there's room for youhere to have your own journey
with god, and we'll be with youon it. And even, you know, my
(42:50):
friends that are there thathaven't been there that long,
that's we get together and wetalk like we have never been in
an atmosphere like this.
T.J. (42:59):
So what is that atmosphere like? What does it allow you to
do that you haven't been able tofind in other settings? What
makes it unique?
Carissa (43:10):
Well, kinda circling back to what we were talking
about with doubt. Like, you'reallowed to doubt. Doubt isn't
scary there. And so when whenyou're not motivated by fear,
you can actually I don't I don'tthink you can do true thinking
until you're not motivated byfear anymore. I don't think you
(43:32):
can really think through anissue unless you're unless
you're not trying to thinkyourself away from hell.
You know?
T.J. (43:40):
Wow. Okay. Wow. That's profound because, yeah, if I'm
scared and and maybe scared andfear is 2 different things. But
it's hard to think clearly.
And any decision I'm thinkingout loud here. Any decision made
has a sense of urgency. Yes.Yeah. But if if we're allowed to
(44:05):
relax and reflect and ponder andgiven space and time to do that,
then maybe the decision makingwould be more more healthy, more
at least more thought.
And if it's a mistake, it's amistake to own. Because because
(44:28):
if I go, well, I was rushed, orI made this decision out of
fear, or I'd made this decision,I said these words, or I didn't
say these words because I didn'tknow what the response would be,
or I don't wanna go to hell.It's different if you've had an
opportunity to kind of think itout a little bit. And, yeah, I
can think of occasions to belike, oh, man. That was a bad
(44:50):
path I took.
However, I own it because Ithought that that was the way to
go. That was the decision tomake. Yeah. It probably comes
with age too, though.
Carissa (45:03):
Yeah. A lot of things get better as I get older. I
feel that. I'm really excitedabout getting to 40. I feel like
that's gonna be a lot better.
T.J. (45:16):
So the Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Ada,
Oklahoma has allowed you tojourney and grow. So what about
the folks who haven't had thatopportunity? You know, what
about the other Carissa's in theworld? What advice would you
(45:36):
give to them if they happen tocome across this podcast and
they weren't too fearful ofgoing in the hell to listen to
it? What advice would you givethem?
Carissa (45:52):
So this is actually a really this is a question that's
really dear to me because I dohave friends who are kind of
starting this journey in intheir own churches, that aren't
the same kind of environment.And I think maybe just ask the
Lord to put to just start with aperson or a couple people who
are maybe not in the same churchwith you, but just somebody that
(46:13):
you can get in community withthat's safe, that is not going
to make you think like them,that that will trust god with
you, that will say, I I trustgod to walk with you, so I don't
need to control your process.And ask him to give you
(46:35):
community and ask him to reallyshow you that he's with you in
the process. And I I thinkpeople can make it through that.
I think people can make itthrough that transition even if
they're in a church that isn'tthat isn't that could be a
little bit safer Mhmm.
To do that.
T.J. (46:56):
So you're in seminary now. Mhmm. What do you wanna do when
you're finished with seminary?What do you think that ministry
is gonna look like? And you'renot held to your your answer
because things change.
Yeah. But, you know, ideally, ifyou had that ability in in many
(47:17):
ways that you do, what will thatministry shape? No. What shape
will the ministry take after youget done with seminary?
Carissa (47:29):
You know, I have thought about this a lot, and I
honestly could see it going afew directions because I love I
love 1 on 1 conversations a lot.
T.J. (47:39):
Mhmm.
Carissa (47:40):
Just conversations that I have right now. I love walking
through process with people 1 on1, but I also really love
teaching settings. Duane hasbeen just super supportive, and
I've had the opportunity toteach in Sunday school and teach
them Wednesday night. Actually,I on Wednesday, I taught a
(48:03):
contemplative practice for lent.So I I love that too.
So I'm still kind of in theprocess of feeling out, like,
what's even available. You know?Like, what kinds of what kinds
of things would even beavailable
T.J. (48:19):
for you.
Carissa (48:20):
I think I joked with you earlier. I have this sticker
that says, I have no idea whatI'm doing, but I'm doing it for
the lord. And that that'shonestly how I feel. I'm I'm
really I've gotten real comfywith with uncertainty, and so
I'm really okay. I'm okay notknowing exactly what I'm going
(48:40):
to do and knowing that I'm onI'm I'm in the right process,
and I'm okay with being in theright process even if I don't
know exactly what it will looklike.
T.J. (48:51):
I wanna go back just a little bit. So I imagine that
your your change away from amore controlling fundamentalist
environment. Those are my words,not yours. And then you had the
this opportunity to, look atface differently, look at the
(49:12):
world differently. I mean, werethere moments of like where you
just watched any movie that youwanted to and you just poured
pure sugar in your mouth and youknow, just that there were there
moment were there moments ofrebellion?
Or or was it was it more gradualor what? What does that look
(49:36):
like?
Carissa (49:36):
I I don't I don't know that there were moments where I
don't think there were momentswhere I'm like, I'm just gonna,
like, get it all out right now.But there I definitely saw a
change in my mind of, like,okay. I I don't think that, you
(49:58):
know, this kind of movie is asbad for me as they're saying it
is. And so, like, I would watchand maybe watch some more, and
then just naturally, I'd belike, I don't really feel that
great when I watch that movie.
T.J. (50:08):
Mhmm.
Carissa (50:08):
And so just kind of so, like, maybe a little bit. I
mean, I definitely did thingsthat neither your IBLP teachings
nor my dad specifically wouldprobably think we're that great,
but it was almost there wasthere was a lot of, like it's
(50:30):
just self regulation. Like, ifyou if you're not motivated by
fear anymore, then you canreally start to listen to, like,
what does my spirit actuallywant? Like, my spirit doesn't
want to, you know, watchsomething that just makes me
terrified all the time, forinstance. Like, for instance,
I'll never I'll never watch,like, a like a like a horror
(50:51):
movie would never be, like,appealing to me.
I'd never be like, well, that'sgonna send you to hell if you
watch a horror movie. But at thesame time, I I I think I just
started to learn to just trustmyself and not be led by not be
led by a lot of rules in generaland just kinda trust that the
(51:12):
spirit of God within me candirect me pretty well.
T.J. (51:15):
And and being able to discern what we think we need at
that time. You know? And thenthere's a difference between,
like, need and want. You know,what do I need to help get me
through this day? You know, whatdo I need when I'm looking at
entertainment?
You know, what do I expect frommy, you know, something that's
intended to be fun, you know.But what what is my threshold on
(51:40):
what that what that means? Yeah.I and I Yeah. I think that comes
with adulthood as well, but alsoas we mature in the faith.
So with that in mind, what kindof books, what kind of music are
you listening to, what kind ofmovies in your life that are
speaking to you now. They can besomething that you watched or or
(52:03):
read, a time back, but somethingthat has spoken to you that you
would recommend.
Carissa (52:10):
Let's see. So books. I am a reader. I love reading.
Peter Inns wrote this bookcalled the sin of certainty, and
that book saved my life.
I think I've used saved my lifea lot during a lot during this
podcast.
T.J. (52:26):
You've been saved
Carissa (52:27):
a lot. Yeah. I have.
T.J. (52:29):
I really
Carissa (52:30):
have. But it just reading it, I think I can even
imagine him having those samepatterns of fear that I have.
And then just in such ascholarly way, like, walks you
out of that. Like, you you don'thave to be sure about
everything. It's okay to havesome doubts.
It's okay to rethink somethings. And the way that he the
(52:53):
way that he frames it, bothbiblically and historically, are
just amazing. So that's a greatbook. This, you know, this is an
old one. This I missed this onethe first go around, though,
because the circle that I was insaid it was heretical.
But, the shack and, actually,one of my seminary professors
(53:15):
recommended it to me when Ifirst started going through
this. But, you know, I kindasaid I had these moments where I
knew that to I I identified theholy spirit as the one who's
bringing me this informationthat I really, really needed. So
I remember talking to him, and Iall said, I, you know, I really
feel like the holy spirit isreally good, but I don't know
(53:37):
about God. I don't know aboutGod the father. And so he well,
he had act he asked thequestion, but so he recommended
The Shack to me, and that bookmessed me up.
It did. I was crying for, like,3 days. Like, you actually are
good. But it was
T.J. (53:59):
I don't think I've heard anybody say that the Shaq has
messed them up.
Carissa (54:04):
Oh my gosh. I was I was a mess. But he just so is so
good at showing how, you know,the trinity. They're all the
same. Like, if you if you havefelt the goodness of one of
them, you can know the goodnessof all of them.
(54:25):
Let's see. Another book. I hadanother one that I was thinking.
That's it. Oh, it's a Rob Bellbook, and I think it's what is
the Bible by Rob Bell.
And I was you know, like I said,I had gotten to this point where
I was like, I don't know if Ilike the old testament god very
much. And I when I read thatbook, he had such a different
(54:48):
way of reading the Bible, andthat was one of those things
that I needed. I only knew oneway of reading the Bible, and he
gave me another way to read thebible, and I needed that. So
those 3. Also, in terms ofthings to watch, this isn't
necessarily, like, a specificrecommendation, but I have
(55:09):
really gotten into, like,historical series.
And I think it's because theconditions were so horrible,
like, so so bad, like, justbarbaric times. And when I think
about the process of God makingall things new, I think that
(55:29):
makes it real to me because Ican see in real time, oh, like,
humanity was horrific, and we'vealready come this far. And we
can even come further becausehe's always saving everything.
Like, he's making everythingnew. And so those even though
they're really dark to
T.J. (55:45):
watch, they're somehow really
Carissa (55:45):
encouraging to me. So, wall, but
T.J. (55:55):
How about music? You said that, growing up, your your
family was musically inclinedYeah. For pleasure and not for
church or anything like that?Because you you play in the the
church band, right, or sing orparticipate or Yeah.
Carissa (56:10):
Yeah. I sing and play piano every once in a while.
T.J. (56:12):
What kind of music do you like, more for pleasure, or is
it the same?
Carissa (56:18):
Actually, I told somebody, I missed out on all
pop culture. Just all of it.Just got none of it. So I'm
discovering bands that probablyeverybody's known about for
forever. But, the 1975, I cannotstop listening to the 1975, and
I am a little bit obsessive.
So I'm kinda just stuck on themright now and haven't discovered
(56:38):
that many more, but I'm sure Iwill. Yeah.
T.J. (56:44):
Well, thank you so much, Carissa, for opening up the
doors to your life and walkingme through a space that I am
unfamiliar with, you know, anexperience that, is is new to me
and for bearing it all. And, andI'm I'm excited for your
(57:10):
seminary experience and whatministry will look like for you
in the coming months.
Carissa (57:15):
Well, thank you. I had a great time.
T.J. (57:20):
Thank you for listening to this episode of Cumberland Road.
In closing, I leave with you thewords from author and Episcopal
Bishop John Shelby Spall. Thosewhose religious security is
rooted in a literal bible do notwant that security disturbed.
(57:41):
They are not happy when factschallenge their biblical
understanding or when nuances inthe text are introduced or when
they are forced to deal witheither contradictions or
changing insights. The Bible, asthey understand it, shares in
(58:02):
the permanence and certainty ofGod and convinces them that they
are right and justifies theenormous fear and even
negativity that lies so close tothe surface and fundamentalistic
religion.
For biblical literalists, thereis always an enemy, an enemy to
(58:24):
be defeated in mortal combat.Thanks for listening.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton tackle the biggest stories in news, politics and current events with intelligence and humor. From the border crisis, to the madness of cancel culture and far-left missteps, Clay and Buck guide listeners through the latest headlines and hot topics with fun and entertaining conversations and opinions.