Chris Fleming - Communal Christianity & Christian Education In A Post Pandemic World

Rev. Dr. Fleming is the Adult Ministry Coordinator for the Ministry Council of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. He lives in Paducah, Kentucky. He attends the New Hope Cumberland Presbyterian Church. He is married to Amy Fleming and has 3 adult children: Alex, Marcus, and Hannah. 

YouTube Encounter Channel: Cumberland Presbyterian Encounter Study - YouTube

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Episode Transcript

T.J. (00:06):
You are listening to the Cumberland Road, and I'm your
host, TJ Malinoski. Thefollowing is a faith
conversation with Chris Fleming,a minister and the adult
ministry coordinator for theCumberland Presbyterian

(00:27):
denomination. In our timetogether, we discuss Chris'
faith journey, beginning at theage of 18, his work in the
restaurant industry, communalChristianity, and what Christian
education looks like in a postpandemic world. At times, our

(00:52):
conversation is light andhumorous, deep and thoughtful,
and peering into the future,encouraging as we think of ways
for meaningful discipleship.Friends, enjoy this conversation
with Chris Fleming.

(01:18):
I'm so grateful that you havevolunteered to be a guest. How
are you, sir?

Chris (01:25):
I am doing very well. I was starting to get panicked
that TJ didn't like me becausehe hadn't asked me on, so I'm
glad that I can be on here.

T.J. (01:35):
We have to spread the the staff out a bit. You know, just
do staff here and there, and andnot have them back to back. So
you're up.

Chris (01:46):
Too much of a good thing. I get it.

T.J. (01:48):
Yeah. It's you're up. It's your turn. I have no system in
terms of who in terms ofdenominational employees, who
goes next. But thank you forhelping me out and, filling in
this gap for the podcast.
Chris, if you don't mind, let'stake a minute. If you'll, talk
about coordinator of adultministries, what that means in

(02:10):
the Cumberland PresbyterianChurch, and, just describe what
that is, what you do.

Chris (02:16):
So I think there has been a desire that that be modified
from what it was in the past.There's always been a heavy
emphasis on the encounter,making sure that gets published
and people write for it and allthat good jazz. And, I think
when they hired me, we weretrying to think of ways to

(02:36):
expand our curriculums or toexpand our ministries,
especially to what we call the3rd age ministry, which is, you
know, ministry to that, youknow, retirement, We'll say
retirement age, and up, and thenalso maybe get more connected
with the transition when, youknow, Nathan Wheeler gets the
youth and young adults. Andthat's a demographic that is

(03:01):
hard for most churches that thatswitch from the youth once you
graduate high school to, youknow, starting that family.
Kinda a lot of denominationsstruggle with keeping kids in in
the in the faith community.
And so I think there's a there'sa desire to kind of address
those things too. So inpracticality, wishes don't wash

(03:24):
dishes, I say. Sometimes we canput more expand and have the
time to do so.

T.J. (03:38):
So what is The Encounter?

Chris (03:41):
The Encounter, I often say, is the greatest piece of
theological and biblical writingsince John wrote the Revelation.
And the Cumberland PresbyterianChurch happens to be the genesis
of that writing. The Encounteris the longest running, ed or

(04:02):
curriculum piece of educationthe Carmelite Christian Union
Church has. I think we'reworking on our 90th year this
year, 91st year, and it's beenin publication for, you know, a
continuous ninety somethingyears. It's been the adult
Sunday School material for thechurch.
It's experienced, you know,throughout the years, different
iterations, and we're in our, Iguess, our 2nd year of a new

(04:25):
format and and new new way ofdistribution now for the
Encounter. We do have it moredigital. We have a podcast that
you can get, that will accompanyeach lesson. So, that's one way
that I've tried to change theencounter, is to kinda get it
reformatted, maybe that's easierto teach and and easier for a

(04:48):
small group to pick up thanmaybe it was before. So that's
what The Encounter is.
It is the, it is the thing thatthe Carmelite Prosegene Church
has done and done well, Ibelieve, for 90 some odd

T.J. (05:00):
years. Let's talk a little bit more about who the encounter
is for. How do you envision thecurriculum to be utilized by the
church?

Chris (05:12):
So the Encounter, probably starting back in
probably maybe before, but 95 or96 took particular hold in the
adult Sunday school world in theCumberland Presbyterian Church.
We were still selling a prettygood chunk of of encounters. But
from about 96 to 97, till now,we've experienced the decline of
readership, and it's correlatedwith the age, that age group, so

(05:36):
those that were 55, 5019, 90 arestill the ones using the
encounter, and we have notreally been able to gain a
foothold in a generation youngerthan that. A lot of the
Cumberland Presbyterian Churchchurches or smaller churches
anyway, you have, like, almost aone room adult class anyway. So
you could have the 25 year oldswith the retired up to, you

(05:59):
know, however old the Lord hasblessed someone with life all in
the same Sunday school class.
And and so that's about the onlyinteraction so that's where it's
at mostly, and so that's that'sour we wanna try to brand it in

(06:20):
such a way that, it could beused or picked up a little bit
easier in in a young youngeradult class, whatever term we
use in ages when we talk aboutthe Carmelite Presidio Church.

T.J. (06:31):
Right. How are writers chosen for The Encounter?
Because with each quarter, thisis a quarterly curriculum, With
each quarter, you have adifferent writer or maybe like a
group of writers. What does thatprocess look like?

Chris (06:47):
So that can vary. Sometimes, if I know it's a
certain book that, I know fromexperience, either through
listening to a couple sermonsthat I've heard from someone or
maybe I've had class with themat seminary or I've taught them
at pause or something like that,if if I know the the content
that's going to be written on,I'll have somebody in mind.

(07:09):
However, if it's just trying tofigure out someone who writes, I
like to I use Evotions kind ofas a filter, like if somebody if
I've asked somebody to write forEvotions, if you all know what
that is. You can go tocpcmc.org/ evotions. It's like
devocean, but take off the d.
That's our way of being reallycool and and using electronic

(07:31):
means to deliver the soevotions. If somebody writes
and, I think, well, no, thatwas, you know, that was 250
words of sweet theologicalgoodness that was applicable to
the soul. That means thatsomebody has the ability to take
something and to serve it up, asbest as possible for learning.

(07:54):
And then sometimes there'speople that are respected, that
have taught in our institutions,you know, Bethel or the seminary
or in the Paws program that hadjust over time proven that they
they know how to handle theword. And so that's you know,
it's a filtering process, butit's how we get there.

T.J. (08:12):
Why would I choose the encounter out of all the
different types of traditionalSunday school material for
adults? What makes The Encounterstand out?

Chris (08:26):
There is some home field advantage. Like, it is being
written by people that youfellowship with. We have the,
this is just one, but we havethe the advantage in the
Carmelon Presbyterian Church tonot only say we're connectional,
but we are driven by connection.In some way, we're a big we're a

(08:48):
small denomination, but a bigchurch. And so the chances are,
you know the person who'swritten something.
And so there's some kind ofpride and you've seen that
person grow up, or you've seenthe maturation of that person.
And maybe your church had a partin that, or your presbytery, or
the camps they went to, orsomething like that, and it's
just an interest there. But thesecond thing would be, I know

(09:10):
this, there's there's manyCumberland Presbyterian churches
that don't use The Encounter,and I purposely go to the Sunday
School class and they'll useother publishers.

T.J. (09:18):
And I

Chris (09:18):
think to myself, That is I'm not going to say it's
terrible, but, like, what areyou learning? And it disappoints
me that a church is settled forsomething that is so generic
that you learn nothingdistinctive, or you're not
challenged in your faith,especially in particular ways,
and and that has been a commentthat I'd received about the

(09:40):
encounter in the past that Ithink I've addressed, And and I
think that we have a curriculumthat is both challenging,
informative, and devotional, AndI think you can get that from
the encounter. So

T.J. (09:56):
What role do you play in the encounter, in the formation
and the making of the encounter?

Chris (10:03):
I am I don't do this well. I'm a better teacher than
I am an editor. Technically, I'msupposed to be the one that goes
through after another editorgoes through it and check all
and make sure we got all themistakes done, but I'm terrible
at that. I think what so the wayI understand my role, I'm not
somebody and in the CumberlandPresbyterian Church, we do

(10:23):
practice this, I don't want tosay, understand this right when
I say it, a big tent theology.We have our theology, but we are
a big tent, and we not only saythat as a motto, but we practice
that.
And so, so the counter in thepast, some again, some of the
criticisms that I heard of itis, because we have different

(10:45):
people writing all the time. II've said this before, if your
audience knows, some people areJohn MacArthur and they're gonna
be like, verse 1, here's what itis. Verse 2, here's what it is.
And then some people are likeFred Craddock that's, like,
gonna talk for 35 minutes and atthe end say, and Jesus said, you
should be salt and light, whichis fine, except when you have

(11:08):
that quarter after quarter andthere's those swings, there's a
real variation on how you teachthat or the way it's, and so
that made it hard. And in thesame way, we have those who are
real conservative in our church,and we have some that aren't as
conservative or maybe a littlebit more liberal, which if it's
just the swings were tough.
So my job was to enforce some, Idon't know what to say,

(11:34):
continuity. So I created newguidelines, new headings that
force a writer to go through theprocess of at least the same
process. And so it turns out tobe a little bit more uniform, I
think a little bit easier toteach from week to week. And I
think we've worked hard on thediscussion questions, which is

(11:57):
kind of vital in today's world,in the way people like to teach
now.

T.J. (12:02):
So over the years, the format and maybe the narrative,
the telling of the narrative hasjust been shaped a little bit.

Chris (12:12):
Well, so so also in the past, the, Carmelite
Presbyterian Church has usedthe, lectionary. I don't know if
lectionary is the best term forit, but, I think it's the United
Bible System. No. NationalCouncil of Churches years ago
created kind of a, a commonSunday school lectionary. It's a
7 year cycle, and it's usedthroughout Christendom,

(12:33):
Lutherans, Catholics, whatever.
Everybody has a little varyingthing, you know. You know,
there's some saint that needs afeast somewhere that not all
churches agree on. But, for themost part, you use these
churches use the same the sameSunday school text each week. So
a denominational Lutheran churchwould be the same text as, like,

(12:54):
the text in, like, aPresbyterian church. Obviously,
different publishers havedifferent writers.
And and I x nayed that for 2years, 3 years because, I did a
lot of research when I first gothired, studying I mean, you
know, probably talked to peoplein most US presbyteries. For the

(13:17):
most part, from what Iunderstand, the overseas
presbyteries don't use theencounter for various and
standard reasons, and so Ididn't really delve too deep
into that. But pretty muchevery, US presbytery, I talked
to pastors, elders, and Sundayschool teachers, and I heard
concerns that people just didn'tknow the story of the Bible, how
Genesis connected with Isaiah,connected with Luke, connected

(13:40):
with Revelation. And so there soI made a choice to follow what's
called the narrative lectionary.And, basically, what it does is
try to go the entire biblicalstory, starting with creation
and then one of the patriarchs,matriarchs, to the minor
prophets, major prophet, wisdom,gospel, you know,

(14:02):
polyamliterature.
And so you follow the storycontinuously for the year from
Genesis to Revelation or orwhatnot. So, I thought that was
important because I do thinkthat's, something that we like.
Christians are getting moreproof texty, either to win an
argument or to justify theirposition on something, and then
less knowledgeable about the thebiblical story of creation,

(14:24):
fall, and redemption. So Idecided it was worth doing 2 or
3 years on the story.

T.J. (14:30):
How was that going?

Chris (14:33):
So, of course, when we first switched to the new
format, and at the same time, Iswitched to, again, a different
lectionary, I got letters andemails and phone calls
expressing concern.

T.J. (14:51):
You received, responses.

Chris (14:53):
I received responses, but even in the responses I
received, like the, I know thatwe addressed every problem that
we were trying to address evenin the the ones that were more
critical. So, now that beingsaid, I don't think I've
received a critical email orresponse from anybody in 7

(15:16):
months now. If I go to apresbytery or if I go to
somewhere, people areappreciative. I mean, the
biggest the biggest criticismthat we receive is is, sometimes
I'll get an email that says,what? Are religion professors
writing this now?
And and and I know that might beI don't know if that's a

(15:39):
condemnation on our writing orif it's a condemnation on the
Christian education and thechurch in general, because there
are certain things that theysaid, well, this was over our
head, and I'm like, that mightbe over our head today, but 25
years ago, that was something ajunior high school, Sunday
school member would know.

T.J. (15:56):
Well, that leads me into my next question. Chris, what is
Christian education? And whatdoes it look like in the 21st
century?

Chris (16:08):
So I'm glad you asked this question. I've been
preparing for that for the last,oh, 6 weeks of my life.
Currently, right now, I'mteaching the, Paulist class for
Christian education 2. And andI've Christian education is my
burning, it's my burning flamein my heart because I think it's

(16:29):
the key to preaching is isobviously important to the
salvation of souls, and and goodpreaching is definitely the
primary method that a that apreacher is called to do. But I
would also say that the GreatCommission, it's a, you know,
make disciples.
And I think that we have failed,generally speaking, as a church,

(16:52):
just completely. And I think theproblems that we're all
experiencing in ourdenominations or in our churches
can probably be led back to abreakdown in Christian
education. I cannot everremember the, football coach
that said this phrase, but itwas one of those football
coaches, you know, where alltheir kids ended up getting on

(17:13):
probation or something or gotsuspended. And somebody asked
him, you know, well, what'swrong? And he said, well, you
recruit your own problems.
And what he was saying is, youknow, a lot of the problems
you're facing now didn't startnow. It was then. And and the
breakdown in Christian educationthen leads to what we're
experiencing now, with peoplenot staying in the church or

(17:34):
with people not understandingbiblical theology or worldview
or whatever else. So what doesit look like in the 21st
century? I would be able toanswer that if it hadn't been
for COVID, but now I thinkCOVID's changed that even, and I
think we're just now learning.
So what I'm hopeful for is, Idon't know how to explain this.

(17:55):
There's a book out that somepeople won't agree with the
theology at all, and I don't Idon't wanna defend it for the
theology. But it's called theBenedict Option, and it's a
theory of discipleship or just atheory of learning in a society
that's becoming increasingly, Idon't want to say hostile, but

(18:18):
increasingly averse to certainChristian thoughts and
practices. And then I've alwaysthought, the Amish education
system, which we won't go intothat, but the Little Red
Schoolhouse, the 1 roomschoolhouse, the way they in
they the way they use, you know,work, school, play as all part

(18:40):
of teaching the Christian faith,I think, lends us a good way to
think about Christian educationin the 21st century.

T.J. (18:46):
What would that look like with adults?

Chris (18:50):
It would look like I think we have to I've worked
with this a little bit. 1 of mydoctor my doctorate project was
trying to answer that question,in the sense of, I think within
the church, we have especiallythe Carmelo Presbyterian Church,
we have the traditional Sundayschool that runs the you know,

(19:13):
and those churches that havemoved a little beyond the
traditional Sunday school havesmall groups. Right? But I think
to push it a little further,that has to become more of, in a
way everybody's gonna laugh, buthang with me. But like monastic
movements to where you just have10 or 12 people, maybe 6 or 7

(19:35):
families that group together inthe church, that becomes your
small group, but you're doingyour activities together.
In some sense, you're explicitlyliving the faith among one
another, not a cult, not not anactual mon monastic movement,
but you're just intentionallysaying, hey. On you know, next
week, we're all going over tothe Joneses'. We're gonna have
dinner. We're gonna discusswhatever. And then some

(19:57):
somebody's kid has a ballgame onFriday, so as many as possible
go.
But it's just you you begin tocluster in in a discipling
relationship that includes biblestudy, includes the fellowship
mills, it includes mentorship.You know? So, like, if you have
a newlywed couple that's part ofa group that has 2 couples that
are 75 years old and beenmarried for 50 years, But it's

(20:19):
an intentional relationship inthe faith.

T.J. (20:23):
Okay. That's interesting. So the educational piece may not
fit into the traditionalparameters that we currently
think of of I'm gonna go to alocation, typically a church,
church basement or upstairs orfellowship hall, and for 45

(20:45):
minutes or less, receiveinformation about a particular
passage in scripture orparticular theme. And then when
I leave that room, enter into aworship experience and then
return home. But your idea,you're suggesting that maybe

(21:07):
discipleship is moreencompassing to other aspects of
life.

Chris (21:12):
It's an amazing idea, isn't it? It's almost biblical.

T.J. (21:16):
Well, yeah. Isn't it interesting that there is really
nothing new under the sun? Youknow, it's just, there's nothing
novel about it. It justreorients. I can see that
reorienting, the way that we,form our communities of faith.

Chris (21:36):
Yeah. And some of it, I wanna compliment you. I mean, I
had been thinking this ofcourse, like I said, I was
working on for this doc doctoralproject, and I had to I had to
figure out what methods orChristian education in the
history of the Christian churchexcelled. And normally, it was
things like it was the monasticmovements that even in spite of

(21:59):
culture or civilizationcrumbling around them, they
flourished, as as a body, asfellowships. They would create
more monastic movements withincities that flourished and so on
and so forth.
So then, I'm connecting thiswith you, I think that also ties
into what we call the worshipingcommunities. I don't know how

(22:20):
long our churches will be ableto sustain a full time pastor
and sustain a building thatcosts more money than they can,
you know, than they're paying insalaries. Like, I think the
last, last study I saw betweenthe building and the and the
pastor salary, that's, you know,maintenance and grounds or
whatever else, it's like 84% ofthe budget in many churches. And

(22:42):
so if you've only got 16% goingto something else, I guarantee
you, you're not doing a wholelot of work in the community,
not on not on because you don'twant to. It's just 80 84, 85
percent of your budget.
I don't think you can sustainthat.

T.J. (22:57):
How would this work? Because in North America, and
really in other parts of theworld as well, we very much
compartmentalize our time andour activities. You know,
martial arts classes 3 o'clockin the afternoon on Tuesday.
Sunday school is at 9 AM on aSunday. Doctor's appointment,

(23:19):
you know, 10 AM on a Thursday.
What you're asking for in termsof Christian education, I'm
pushing here in terms of whatthis could actually actually
look like, is more of a blendinginto our daily activities. How
do you reshape my thoughts, ourthoughts on schedule and

(23:40):
compartmentalizing, and a verytask oriented society?

Chris (23:47):
This this sound practice Sabbath, in this sense. Like,
one of the only ways thatsomeone can successfully
practice the Sabbath is whathappens, the Sabbath becomes the
anchor, and then you have toprioritize from that, and
sometimes you say no. Now thatagain, so that's, this isn't
bulletproof at all, but I'msaying if you're trying to say,

(24:09):
I want to grow in my faith inthe best way possible, then
that's your goal. It's not thebusyness of the world. And it
might mean you have to, and andthese are questions you have to
ask, but when you talk about,like, football practice for the
kids or whatever, that's fine.
But I mean, work it into, if youcan't justify that it's
important, then why are youdoing it? Right? And so, and I

(24:32):
think community then can helppeople do that, as well. I mean,
like, if you have a communityand, like, you need some help
getting people to and fromagain, taking somebody to
football practice, there's 15,20 minutes in the car of
ministry. If you've had kids,you know how that works.
It might be the only time yourkid actually talks to you.
Right? Actually. So,

T.J. (24:55):
You do have a

Chris (24:56):
But anyway

T.J. (24:56):
You're right. You do have a captured audience in terms of
a moving vehicle.

Chris (25:02):
Can't go anywhere. But no, I think, I guess what I'm
trying to say is, is that Ithink the question itself
reveals the fact that we've saidYou have church, and then you
have the real world, and I thinkwe've got it reversed. I think
the church is the real world,and this stuff that we do here
is that fleeting stuff that willone day fall away, but we're

(25:23):
captured by it, and we'veallowed it to dictate the church
world.

T.J. (25:29):
So one of the things that may be helpful is actually
changing our set of questions.Like, my question was, okay, I'm
very task calendar based. Right.You know, hourly based. And it
was like, well, no, we can lookat our days in our in very
different way and that is timespent with one another, time

(25:50):
spent with Sabbath, time spentwith prayer, time spent with
study.
And that could all be the sharedtime.

Chris (25:59):
Yeah.

T.J. (25:59):
That could all be the same 15, 45 minute bracket.

Chris (26:04):
It could be, but I guess what I'm saying is the other
part would be you'reintentionally choosing a
different way. This is where theAmish stuff comes in. They go
they their children have to goto school until they're 8th
grade, and all of their subjectmaterial is from scripture
pretty much. They learn how tosing the Psalms. They learn how
to read through the epistles,you know, whatever the like,
everything's geared around that.

(26:26):
But then after the 8th grade,they're done with their
learning. Now they're gonna gobe Amish. Amish. The rest of
their learning is on the farm.It's almost like a real life
tech school, vocational college,if you want to.
And so there's always been someclash between the United States
government and, the Amishbecause they, they sometimes

(26:46):
want their kids to go to schooltill at least 16 or till at
least 18. They always have thesefights. But the Amish do good at
this. Like, 96, 97 percent ofAmish stay Amish, and they're
all competent in their life, butthey've simply chosen something
different than what the UnitedStates government has chosen,
right? So like, that's what Imean.
I mean, you've got to make yourchoices on what's important.

T.J. (27:07):
But doesn't it help to be raised in a particular culture
to kind of remain in thatculture? I'm gonna be terribly
influenced in my thoughtprocesses, in my decision
making, even if I say, well, I'mnot a practicing Christian, I'm
still influenced by thosecultural values, those religious

(27:30):
values, those moral values,those Christian values.

Chris (27:34):
Yeah. So there's an old joke, like, you know, there's
over in Scotland or Ireland orwhatever. Like, somebody was
trying to relate at night, gosomewhere, and he stopped by 1
of the or his tire blows orsomething, and somebody pulls up
to help him be like, are youCatholic or Protestant? And the

(27:54):
guy says, well, neither. I'm anatheist.
He was like, okay. Fine. Are youa Catholic atheist or a
Protestant atheist? But so but Imean, you know, because we're
all we all have our values.Like, you know, like, there's
different types of ofsecularism.
You know? Are you a Christiansecularist or an, you know,
atheistic? So I get what you'resaying. Still, I guess what I'm

(28:16):
trying to say, whatever we canchoose what we're formed by. So,
like, so part of Christianeducation is a practice or at
least the teaching, I think itshould be, a lot of our churches
don't do it, would be thepractice of spiritual
disciplines.
So things like I've said before,Sabbath, if you're gonna

(28:36):
practice that, you're gonna haveto make priority choices on what
you do during the week and howhow many times you say yes to
somebody when they ask you to dothings. But then there's also
those disciplines of simplicity,where you can simply reject
having to have a for betteringhome. Alright? Or you can
practice, you know, silence andsolitude to where you don't have

(28:57):
to have Netflix. But it's justif you form and shape and you
practice and pattern your way oflife around something, like, I
don't know.
I had a stupid idea to buy a newcar back when I was, you know,
younger, and it was greatbecause it was a nice car and I
could afford the payments. Butfor some reason, the oil changes

(29:17):
went from $20 to 65 because ithad to have certain oil. And
then I couldn't just use regulargas. I had to use premium. So
then it tossed me out.
And so I was like, okay. I havestuff now, but it cost me more.
And I so I have to work more orI can't buy some other thing. I
think we're just in a little bitof a we're in a little bit of a
rat race of our own choosing.And again, I think it goes back

(29:40):
to priority.
Also though, so far as educationis concerned, especially since
COVID happened, there's been astat that has been not paid
attention to, but there's been,like, a 120% rise in people
choosing homeschooling, not notsimply because, like, they

(30:01):
couldn't go to school, but kidsstayed home and then all of a
sudden, mom and dad were like,we could just homeschool them.
Number 1, because they don'tlike certain political things
that are perceived. Or number 2,we had our high school here in
Kentucky. In the in, like, a 4year span, there were 3 teachers
that were arrested and chargedwith sexual, you know,
activities against minors. Andyou only go so far until you

(30:24):
think, well, I just don't wantmy kids to be a part of that
either.
And so there's different ways tolive, I guess, is what I'm
trying to say.

T.J. (30:31):
And you're challenging us to kind of view our perceptions
and our understandings ofChristian education and how
those could be improved.

Chris (30:44):
I don't know about improved because for every every
I mean, you know, some churchesare doing a 100% with the way
they're doing it. Right?Probably not. Nobody does 100%.
But I guess what I am saying isthat for the vast majority of
churches, due to resources,human and, you know, monetary
resources, we'll have to switchthe way we do things or the way

(31:06):
just reading habits for people,attention spans, these kinds of
things.
I think there's probably adifferent way to do it.

T.J. (31:16):
So looking back on your life, Chris, how has Christian
education influenced you? Or didit?

Chris (31:26):
Yes, but it wasn't from the church. So the Christian
education that I received, itwas actually I went to a Bible
college, and that 4 years,obviously, I changed my some of
my habits. I changed mythinking. Certainly, my
worldview has changed, and itwasn't necessarily the classes.
It was the classes plus all theexperiences I had with fellow

(31:49):
Christians.
That Bible college, I guess somepeople might call it a cult, but
it really wasn't. Like the Ifyou were a full time professor,
you had to live on campus, yourfamily had to live on campus.
You're part of your you know, itwas a Bible college, the
professors didn't make a lot ofmoney. So part of the package
was they got free food in thecafeteria for their family. And
so when you went in there, youwere eating with your professors

(32:14):
and their family.
And so they had JohnsonUniversity, at least when I went
there, they offset the cost ofthe students like 35%, 40%
because you had to work like 10or 12 hours a week, at the
college. It's it was something alittle more than work study. It

(32:34):
but you were working side byside with the staff. Right?
Like, it was just you were and Ithought this might be something
what it's supposed to look like,you know, when I reflected back.
As opposed to, like, some of theseminaries, you go to class, you
drive in, you go to class, andthen you drive home, and you're

(32:55):
not really part of community. Oryou know what I'm saying? Like,
there was something about thatthat I took that that I said,
this is probably right.

T.J. (33:05):
Well, how did that change you as a young man? I mean, I
would think that, you know,you're probably career oriented,
had goals in mind, and which areYeah. Which are realistic for
any young person or any personin general. And then to be
introduced to a, gosh, a a largecommunity like that where

(33:27):
there's that connectiveness ofof where the education and and
service and study are kind ofintertwined. Were you did you
know that going into it?

Chris (33:40):
No. I had no clue. I had no clue what it would be like. I
became a Christian when I was18. It was the year I turned 18
that I ended up on the BibleCollege.
Like, I didn't know anything.Like, during our first like, our
night that we moved in, we weredoing devotions on the dorm. You
know, we had we went to level 3in our dorm. We had devotions on

(34:02):
Monday night, and I was tryingto be, like, you know, really
active. I was going to be, like,a good person.
And so they're like, who wantsto read, you know, what was it?
1st John 3/19. And so I openedup my Bible to the 1st John that
I knew, which was the gospel ofJohn. I didn't know the
difference at the time. That'show, like, knew I was to the

(34:23):
faith kind of thing.
And so I went from that to, youknow I've been in the scriptures
a while. I know it pretty wellin theology. What what I found
and what changed my mind ofcourse, I always wanted to make
money. I wanna run my ownbusiness and all that good jazz.
There was one professor there,doctor David Rees.
He's, passed away now, from sometype of cancer. I forgot what it
was, but, this is a man who hadhad 3 different degrees, one

(34:46):
from UCLA, one from UC Berkeley,and then one from one of the
colleges across the pond. Hecould have taught at any
university of higher educationin America or and incredibly, he
spoke different languages. He,he was amazing. He chose to
make, like, $50,000 and live oncampus with a bunch of students

(35:07):
because that's what God hadcalled him to do.
And so I thought, that's youknow, no human being is perfect,
but just the care and thepassion with which he had for
the calling and the pursuit ofGod, and the way he was able to
use his mind and his heart to doit, I said, that's what I want

(35:27):
to be. Like, that that's the guywhen I grow up. I want to be
like him. And, and, you know, Ihaven't reached that yet, but it
is my overarching goal is andand I learned that from living
and seeing and being, And and myexperience of humanity is not as
awful as other people's in thesense. Like, when my married my

(35:49):
wife, my wife said, well, you'reone of the few good men left on
the earth.
She has said that. She's said itbefore. But I thought, no, I
went to school with, like, a1000 people just like me. And
where she didn't think anybodylike that existed, that's what I
knew. And there, and now lookingback on it, I think, Yeah, that
was a unique experience that I'mcertainly glad I had.

T.J. (36:13):
Chris, do you think that making a profession of faith,
becoming Christian at age 18influenced your decision to
attend the university and the,communal type of environment
that it gave?

Chris (36:31):
I don't know. That was a weird thing. I had no desire in
the world to go to Bethelbecause I didn't know like, I
had no connection, so I didn'twanna go to Bethel. I knew that.
I did go and visit Bethel, butthere was nothing that piqued my
interest.
Well, hold on.

T.J. (36:45):
Let let's pause there just for a moment. So you you had a
profession of faith at the ageof 18 and felt connected to the
Cumberland Presbyterian Churchin what way?

Chris (36:58):
Well, so that's where I had my conversion experience.

T.J. (37:00):
Okay.

Chris (37:01):
Just on a weird kind of long story, we won't go into it,
but we just we picked churchesto go on Easter Sunday morning.
It was one way to satisfy mymother. My dad and me would go
to church on Sunday morning withher or Easter Sunday morning.
And, like, that church did thisreally large Easter egg hunt for
the community. So my dad waslike, let's try this one.

(37:23):
So they had a sunrise service.We went, and and I was
converted. Cool experience. Andso, yeah, I had an affinity
toward the Carmelo PresbyterianChurch because, obviously,
that's where I was converted,but I didn't have any affinity
with Bethel or anything. And mygrandfather, dad's dad, was a
minister in the Disciples ofChrist Church.
He began his journey beforethere was even a Disciples of

(37:45):
Christ Church. It wasindependent Christian churches
and Church of Christ. So thisBible College was a Church of
Christ slash Independent ChurchBible College, and I had no
intention to go there either.But, man, when I visited, it was
like my conversion experience.It's you know, the Holy Spirit
was there.
And I was like, how did thishappen? Like, how did this
happen that of all places.Anyway, so that that's how I

(38:09):
ended up there, call the HolySpirit.

T.J. (38:12):
Well, I'm really intrigued. I don't know this
story. How did an Easter egghunt and a Sunrise service lead
into a profession of faith?

Chris (38:26):
It all starts with a girl, TJ. It always does. So, I
had that rebellion streak in meprobably like every other kid.
My mom was a really devoutChristian. Mike's really devout
really devout.
My dad was not not a Christian.My dad was just, like, you know,
everyday man. Like, you know,didn't have a problem with

(38:47):
faith, didn't really wanna go tochurch every Sunday because the
golf course is good too. And so,like, I went to church every
Sunday with my mom up until Iwas about 6 or 7, and then I
just had the complete and total,like, you can't make me go. And
dad was at the golf course, sohe couldn't either.
So, so then I just stoppedgoing. And then and then just I
was a jerk in life, and so Ireally went down like the, I'm

(39:10):
sure people my age, maybe yourage, you know the term you
probably know the names,Christopher Hitchens, Richard
Dawkins, Daniel Bennett. Thesewhat what people have termed the
4 horsemen of the atheistapocalypse or something. I mean,
I went all down that rabbithole, to where I was, like, just
probably rebellion from mymother. You know, if she ever
asked me to go to church, no.

(39:31):
Again, the caveat was I'd go toEaster sunrise service and then
a midnight mass of some type oror midnight service at Christmas
Eve just because I found thosebeautiful. Mhmm.

T.J. (39:40):
Not

Chris (39:41):
because I really wanted to go, but, anyway, so then I
was working at Captain D's. Longstory, I became a manager when I
was 18, and the dining roommanager, she was know, pretty
young, but she was a stoutChurch of Christ person, like
real stout. And we you know,after work, if you're in the
restaurant, you either go drinkafter you close or, you know,

(40:02):
you go to the Waffle House oryou just do something. Right? I
mean, like, the time isdifferent.
You don't just go home. And inHendersonville, where I was
growing up, really Waffle Houseis the only thing that's open if
you don't want to, like, traveldown to Nashville to go to the
club. Right. So we would justhave these really long talks,
over waffles and omelettes. And,you know, I'd make fun of her a

(40:24):
little bit because, you know,she believed in this Jesus
person thing.
And then she would tell me I'mgoing to hell because that's
what you Christ do a lot. And sobut we liked each other. And,
and so when anyway, she she justhypothetically said, hey. You
know, like, if you were tobecome a Christian, how would
you respond? I'm like, well, theonly way you'd respond is to

(40:44):
devote your life to that thing,which is the ultimate truth.
Like, that's no duh. I mean,that's what you do. And so then
2 weeks later was Easter, andand and I just like Pastor
Norman, Maury Norman, oldminister in the Carmelite
Presbyterian Church, He wasprobably 76 or so when he
preached that Sunday, and, heread just in the middle of it,

(41:06):
he read Hebrews. You know, faithis the evidence of things not
seen, the substance of thatwhich is hoped for, and whatever
at that point in time, call it,I'm not a cessationist anymore.
Never have been because I know Ihad an experience of some kind,
a vision, whatever it may be,that I'm logically could not say

(41:29):
that I I I no longer knewChrist.
Like, I had an experience that II otherwise could not explain
from my mind or heart. So sothen I went to work that same
Sunday and she was like, Hey,how was church service? I was
like, I want to talk to youright now. We can talk later.

(41:50):
And then when I said, I think Ikind of had a convergent
experience or sometimes she'slike, Oh, you did?
She's like, So remember thatquestion I asked you a couple
weeks ago? I'm like, shut up.Let me deal with this in my own.
You Christians are so terrible,always pushing yourself on
people. But, logically, I mean,that's how I am though.

(42:11):
If I'm if I'm on something, I'mlike a dog on a bone. I'll
figure it out. And so that'sit's led to here.

T.J. (42:18):
Yeah. Let's talk more about how you arrived here, the
journey of it. So that same girland coworker, did she end up
becoming, maybe a mentor or aguide along the way?

Chris (42:32):
No. So the way that works, I had worked at Captain
D's from the time I was 16 to,even when I went to college,
really, a couple years into it,I would still come home on the
weekends and work because Iwould work on Friday Saturdays
at captain d's, and then I wouldmy church was so sweet. TJ, you

(42:52):
know me. I I don't I don't dochildren well, but they were
just trying to figure out a wayto give me money. So I was their
youth minister, which meant Ishowed up and taught a Sunday
school class to, like, 4

T.J. (43:01):
kids,

Chris (43:02):
every Sunday. But that was their way of supporting me.
And so so, I came back where sheactually transferred and she got
a promotion to somewhere else.So Nat pretty much stopped that.
Like, I didn't have her thediscipling came through the

(43:23):
college, but also through, youknow, the restaurant.
The restaurant really preparedme for a lot of things. And so I
say my favorite Bible verse andmy my ministry verse is from
Amos, where Amos says, you know,I'm neither a prophet nor the
son of a prophet. I'm acaretaker of trees. Right? And

(43:45):
I've always told people I'mneither a preacher nor the son
of a preacher, but, you know,I'm a flipper of hamburgers and
a fryer of fish.
But God said go, so I went. Andso I think that's that's been my
my thing. So long story, I likeeducation. I've been through a
lot of education. Then when Iwas 28 years old, Doctor.

(44:05):
Jay Earhart Brown from theseminary had recommended me to
go preach at a church inPaducah, Kentucky, and, I did.
And, at the time at therestaurant, I was making, like,
$85 a year. Right? Like, I wasmaking good money, sometimes
more than that, depending on howmy bonuses were. And the
Margaret Hing Church was like,Hey, you're not ordained yet, so
we'll give you $20,000 if youwant to come up here and be our

(44:27):
preacher.
And waffled on that one quite abit until 1 Sunday night. I
don't know. Some guy. I was Iwas a GM at Crystal's at the
time. Some guy just ripped me upand down because there was an
onion onion on his burger.
And so, like, I decided, sure,you're losing $60. Nobody's

(44:50):
gonna yell yell yell about anonion. So that's when I decided
I'd put 2 weeks' notice in. So Ipastored at the Margaret Hink
Church, and that was my nextjourney.

T.J. (45:02):
Were you experiencing a call, calling into some sort of
ministry just beyond being a aChristian?

Chris (45:10):
No. I like money a lot. So like I did. Like, I like
working. I like I really likedit's not that I just like money.
I really like the restaurantworld. I come to find out the
reason why I like it is becauseI like to think in terms of
systems, And like, if you canmanage a restaurant, it's
because you've learned thesystem, you've learned the
production of the food to get itout to the customer as quick as

(45:31):
possible, and how can you putpeople in place to succeed? That
sounds like a church thing, butit works in the restaurant too.
Like, how many people you needin that one place to make this
run the best you possibly canrun it? Methods of training
people.
I love training people. Like for4 years or so, I was a new store
opener with TGI Fridays. So likemy job was to go to places and

(45:52):
train people. And so I learnedTGI Fridays is amazing if
anybody ever gets to work there,if you get in their training
program, they, they train betterthan the church has ever dreamed
to train people. And so I'vetaken a lot of that and applied
it to the church.
So so my calling, yes, I thoughtI could, a, make money, b, do

(46:15):
what I love, and I could do thework of God in a sense because,
you know, there's a lot of needof Jesus in the restaurant
business. He needs to be known.

T.J. (46:27):
From, customer to employee,

Chris (46:30):
Yeah. Yeah. People need more Jesus.

T.J. (46:34):
Well, how did that work out trying to balance all all
those different, desires in yourlife, callings in your life?

Chris (46:42):
Yeah. I mean, like I said, I think I think once, once
the elders of the Margaret HinkChurch issued a call, I was able
to ignore it, you know, and dowhat I wanted to because I
didn't have anything realserious. I mean, it's easy to
just keep going with what you'recomfortable with unless
something, you know, breaks thatup. So I didn't really have to
struggle with it until that. Andthen, that's the only time I

(47:06):
think I've ever struggled withwhat to do with money because of
money or comfort.
So that took a little while, butI God just made it so miserable.
I remember for about 2 or 3weeks, everything was so
miserable for me. Going to workwas miserable. The people I
worked with, they weremiserable, and they always had
been, but now I knew it, like, Irecognized it. The job was

(47:30):
miserable.
Again, it probably was before.It's just that now there was
something else that maybe wasbetter or what I was supposed to
do, and so that started workingpsychologically. And so once I
got yelled at because of anonion, I was like, yeah. Yeah.
We're good.

T.J. (47:43):
Have you experienced a level of misery like that before
or since?

Chris (47:52):
Nope. Uh-uh. But I'll say that before, no, because I was
young and stupid. Like, therewas no misery in my life. I took
advantage of all life'spleasures, and so no.
But since it I it was a hardlesson to learn. Like, I really
I don't like feeling miserable.And so, at the first whiff of

(48:12):
it, I'll look for where Godwants me to be. And so, you
know, and I've been fortunateenough. I've worked I just but I
haven't ever felt God reallypushing me except there.
Like, I've only worked atCaptain d's, TGI Fridays,
Crystal's, and Margaret Hink orthe Carmelo Presbyterian Church.
You know, so I keep jobs for along time. And and so I I've

(48:35):
never, you know, I just I I knewit was time for me to go up
Margaret Haink, And probably,probably the day that I knew
that, you know, I'd doneeverything I could, this job
that I'm currently in was postedonline. And and somebody called
me and said, this job is whatyou need to be doing. I was
like, well, I'll put in anapplication for it.

(48:56):
We'll see what happens. And soagain, I'm here.

T.J. (49:01):
Speaking of here, how do you know that God is here? Where
do you see God and God'spresence today?

Chris (49:12):
I'll say specifically speaking, just for myself, I'll
tell you, like, my family is aneveryday reminder of God's
faithfulness for various andsundry reasons. So that's on a
personal level. Just every day Iwake up and and I realize, like,
I have this family. I've had nochildren of my own, but I have 3

(49:34):
kids and a wife and a home andand that's been a wild thing.
Now, generally speaking, I amnot pessimistic on the Carmel
Grove Prostitution Church.
Through this job, I have seenGod call people to ministry to
specific churches that if I werethe one, like, thinking about

(49:57):
it, it'd be like, this church isdone, but God has brought some
people in. I'm like, wow. OrI've had conversations with,
ministers who have had arenewed, I don't know, renewed
hope or renewed calling orwhatever that that, you know,

(50:19):
the only way that happens is ifGod's working. Yeah. I think,

T.J. (50:24):
I think the, confession of faith for Cumberland
Presbyterian, and no, maybe it'sin the constitution, it talks
about a zeal, a zeal forministry. And I've always found
that interesting because it's,you know, it's an adjective. And
is it makes this dry documentnot quite so dry, you know? The

(50:48):
do's and the don'ts. Then it'slike, oh, it's this zeal.
Yeah. And I know what you'retalking about. It's fascinating
to see the mystery of God'smovement, in the world and
among, covenant of people,community of people, and seeing
zeal where you thought all youmight see is waste.

Chris (51:11):
Yeah. Dry bones, but things are yeah.

T.J. (51:15):
Yeah.

Chris (51:17):
Yeah. I mean, you know, even in the midst of the
struggle that we have or that weexperience on a Presbyterian
level or between certainfactions in the church, my hope
is, is that the passion behindthe differences or the
discussions that we're having isa zeal for God. If it can stay
that way, if it really is that,that people are trying their

(51:39):
best to stretch themselves, toknow more about God and how
God's moving, then I'm I'mpumped. If, however, it's
devolving into just people beingmean to one another, not as
pumped.

T.J. (51:52):
Mhmm.

Chris (51:52):
But that's just one particular part of right now of
our church. Just in the broadjust being able to go to
different presbyteries, meetingsome people, there is a zeal
that I didn't expect to findalways.

T.J. (52:03):
Taking everything that we've talked about, Chris, from
Encounter, adult ministries, 3rdAge Ministries, Christian
Education, the CumberlandPresbyterian Church. My question
is, what would you like all ofthis to become? You know,
they're all interconnected in invarious ways. What would you

(52:26):
like that to become? Bigger.

Chris (52:34):
More people attending then. More spiritual growth. I
don't know. I don't know how toanswer that question. I'd like
it to be there's a certain,again, I don't know the exact
term you would use, ethos orpathos to the Carmelon
Presbyterian Church that Icertainly would never wanna
lose.

T.J. (52:51):
Mhmm.

Chris (52:52):
And so I hope whatever ministry we approach or things
that we do, we do so in thespirit of what has been
Cumberland in the past. Again, Idon't know how to explain it
except when I go todenominational events from other
denominations, it's just adifferent feel. There's just a
different feel in a differentway, and I hope we keep that

(53:12):
distinctive. But what I think Iwould like to say is whatever
you talk about, whether it beour church or denomination or
Christian education, I hope thatit simply is an intentional
thing. I guess that would be mything, would be like, whatever
we do is, we're intentionalabout it, especially in in,

(53:36):
Christian education.
But in anything, our evangelismor our our meetings from general
assembly down to the session,like, I don't know how many
session meetings that I did thatit was like 5:30. I'm like,
Crap, I forgot the agenda. And Ithink that we've got to give God

(54:01):
more than that at every level,and I think simply taking a
breath and saying, We're goingto be intentional in our pursuit
of spirituality in all things.

T.J. (54:11):
And that goes back to kind of, reordering our lives with a
different nexus, a differentpivotal point that

Chris (54:21):
Yes.

T.J. (54:22):
Moves us, not just individually, but collectively
towards a common practice, acommon celebration, a common
worship.

Chris (54:33):
That'd be a good book, title.

T.J. (54:36):
Well, speaking of books, what I'd like to ask guests,
what are you reading? I knowyou're quite the reader. So what
are you reading that you like toshare? You think is might be
interest of to others?

Chris (54:53):
I've had to read the covenant of grace, like, 7 times
in the past couple months.

T.J. (54:57):
By Hubert Morrow.

Chris (54:59):
Yeah. Yeah. Because we're working spoiler alert, TJ and I
are working on a encounter,quarter that will be centered
around the confession of faith.And so I've been doing a lot of
reading in that. And I say,particularly, one of the reasons
why I would say present that,I'm not sure if I agree with him
a 100%.

(55:20):
A lot of my education has beenin the reformed, reformed
church, but Hubert Morrowpresents an idea of our
understanding of the covenant ofworks or the covenant of grace,
and his theory is is thatthere's just been a covenant of
grace, not necessarily works,that it's always been a covenant
of love, not based on obedienceand these kinds of things, and
that's something new in theReformed world. So anyway,

(55:44):
that's just something that I'mreading a lot. I have gone back.
Again, people might not agreewith the the even the culture or
the doctrine position of it, butthe Benedict Option is one that
I've I've read in the past whilepreparing for this pause class

(56:05):
I'm teaching right now. I'mtrying to think.
You know, I mean, I read a lot,so I don't know. But I'll say a
book that helps me or that I'vefound enjoyment with and I've
actually found a lot of ministryout of is, The Hitchhiker's God

(56:29):
of the Galaxy. Alright. I thinkeverybody should read that. In
the absurdity, Douglas Adams wasdecidedly not a Christian, and
he presents basically theHitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
as a presentation of hisunderstanding of life.
So for instance, the quest is tofind the answer to the question.

(56:50):
And they find out the answer tothe question is 42, but they
don't know what the question is.So now they've got to find the
question of the ultimate answerof the or of the universe and
the meaning of life. And so,I've read that book probably
once a year for the last 10, 15years, or I'll listen to it on
audio just because it reminds meof how another group of people

(57:14):
who aren't centered in Christthink about questions of
existence, questions of, youknow, what we're doing here.

T.J. (57:25):
Search for meaning.

Chris (57:27):
Yeah. And then the other one that, that was really big on
me, this will take forever, andmost people don't want to read
it, I'm sure. But, Les Mis, atleast watch but if you read the
book, that's probably thegreatest, the greatest
commentary on someone whofollows the law versus someone

(57:48):
who follows grace. So you gotJean Valjean, which is the
criminal that is completelytransformed by the grace of God,
but then you have, oh, what'sthe the sheriff or the
policeman. That's Javier,Inspector Javier.
It's his whole goal and pursuitto get Jean Valjean because he

(58:11):
broke the law because he stolebread when he was a kid and he
was hungry. And so for hisentire life, Jean d'Al Jean is
an is this person who who justwent his whole life rest of his
life. He he got a new identity.He helped everybody, loved
everybody, but then the personwho was righteous, who was by
the law, couldn't practiceforgiveness. And so that that

(58:32):
book is an amazing I can't Ican't do the musical.
It's too long. Like, 4 songs Ilike. Reading the book is pretty
amazing. Plus because the bookhas more theological treaties
within it than you get in the,

T.J. (58:46):
Okay. Well, I like your mix of theology, contemporary,
classic in terms of books. Andyou picked some that I were
familiar with. I also like thatas well. Chris, anything that
you want to promote?
You talked about 3rd ageministry, The Encounter, what

(59:09):
anything in your umbrella ofadult ministries that you'd like
to point people to where theycan find out more?

Chris (59:17):
Day in the park. The last 2 years, I've called it day in
the park because of COVID, butthis year, it's day in the park.
So that's, that's one of thethings we tried to do for 3rd
age ministry. We actually so onOctober 4th, which is a Tuesday,
from 10 o'clock in the morningtill noon, we'll have, the
historical foundation. They showup in their period costume.

(59:44):
The last time we did it, theyalso had apple cider and
cookies, so there's that. Butthey give you kind of a tour of
the different monuments and, youknow, what life was like during
the time of the founding of theCarmelo Presbyterian Church. And
then from, you know, from about11 so you got from 10 to 11 to
fellowship with all your allyour buddies and to learn about
the Carmel Preston Church. Thenat 11, we're gonna have reverend

(01:00:06):
Sandra Shepherd lead us inworship, and then reverend Duane
Tias will be our our preacher.And so we'll have a worship
service there in the chapel.
Last time we we, you know, wehad a 120 people last time we
had it, and it was a good day offellowship. At noon, you can
either go home or head down tothe lodge, and we have lunch
together. You know, I'll givethem the heads up and say that

(01:00:28):
there's a bunch of CumberlandPresbyterian that that are
hungry, and so they're ready forus.

T.J. (01:00:32):
Alright. And and for those not in the know, the day at the
park is at, Montgomery BellState Park. Yep. That's just
outside of, Dixon, Tennessee.And that is 45 minutes kind of,
south of Nashville headingtowards Memphis.
What else you got?

Chris (01:00:52):
Well, you know, if you can talk about the encounter
once, you can talk about theencounter twice. And so I would
like to say you could alwaysfind the encounter. I will say,
if you go on YouTube and yousearch Encounter Bible Study,
it'll come to our channel. Andevery week, myself, Reverend
Rebecca Zardy, and I have just akind of an extra 45 minute kind

(01:01:15):
of talk about the lesson thatyou might, appreciate if you're
a teacher or if you just want toget in a little deeper on the
lesson. If you go tocpcmc.org/encounter and scroll
down a little bit, you can signup for a weekly newsletter that
has some different web pages youcan go visit to kind of get some

(01:01:36):
more detail about the lesson aswell.
That's all I'm gonna do forright now because it really the
encounter is the place whereChristian education begins and
ends, CJ.

T.J. (01:01:50):
Chris, thank you for your time. Thank you for helping me
with Christian education. Thankyou for sharing your faith
journey. And, thank you formaking the connection in terms
of the restaurant world and theworld of faith and how those 2
overlap. And thank you for yourministry.

Chris (01:02:14):
Alright. Thank you for your ministry, and I do want to
say thank you to all theCumberland Presbyterian I've got
to meet out there. Y'all havemade me feel welcome in this
job.

T.J. (01:02:22):
Alright. And thank you, Chris. Appreciate it.
If you enjoy Cumberland Road,consider subscribing on Apple
Podcasts, Spotify, or yourfavorite podcasting site. And
now, let me leave you with somewords from the novel Les Mis. He

(01:02:46):
thought of the grandeur andpresence of God, of the future
eternity, that strange mystery,Of the eternity past, a mystery
still more strange. Of all theinfinities which pierce their
way into all of his sensesbeneath his eyes, and without

(01:03:06):
seeking to comprehend theincomprehensible, he gazed upon
it. He did not study God, he wasdazzled by God. He considered
those magnificent conjunctionsof atoms, which communicate
aspects to matter, reveal forcesby verifying them, create

(01:03:28):
individualities in unity,proportions in extent, the
innumerable in the infinite, andthrough light produce beauty.
Thank you for listening to TheCumberland Road.