April 9, 2024 • 62 mins
Danny Willis is a Cumberland Presbyterian minister in Owensboro, Kentucky. He and his wife Jessica, join me in this faith journey on Cumberland Road. Danny writes, “my story is one of ‘I am lost and now I am found’ and being pulled from certain death, by God’s hand. My church, wife, and children have all been a huge part of my journey; a journey that has just begun.”
Music is provided by Pierce Murphy, Caldera Blue.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
T.J. (00:03):
You are listening to the Cumberland Road, and I'm your
host, TJ Malinowski. Thefollowing is a faith
conversation with Reverend DannyWillis, a Cumberland
Presbyterian minister inOwensboro, Kentucky. Danny has a
(00:26):
provocative journey, A journeyof overcoming addiction, broken
relationship, and multiplehealth issues that almost caused
his death. Instead of losingfaith, Danny found a deep and
profound faith in Jesus Christthat has led him into ministry.
(00:51):
I met with Danny in atransitional period in his life
as he just finished a pastorateand is discovering what is next
in his journey. His wife,Jessica, joined in on our
conversation. Married for 9years, their journeys intertwine
(01:11):
in a beautiful way. Here is thefaith journey of Danny Willis.
Danny, we met a few years agoand I got bits and pieces of
your faith journey, and it'sit's a treat to be able to kind
(01:31):
of swing back around and, getthe whole story and your whole
journey. But I remember youtelling me vaguely that you had,
a medical scare, and and I don'tremember what it was. But we can
start there in our conversationor start in another place if you
wanted to lead up to that.
Danny (01:51):
No. That'd be fine. We could start there. Try to make
it as short as possible.
T.J. (01:57):
Take your time. You you've got my you've got my attention.
Danny (02:00):
So My whole life, I weighed about £330. And then
about the last 4 or 5 years,I've blown up to £580 is when
what I laid when I went into thehospital.
T.J. (02:11):
And and for those who are listening, just for perspective,
you're you're probably a quarterof that now.
Danny (02:18):
Yeah. I'm 6 foot 4, and I'm £200. Okay.
T.J. (02:21):
Alright.
Danny (02:22):
But, yeah, I was £580, and, I was an alcoholic as well.
And my whole life, you know, I'mjust I I stayed away from God a
lot. So there's a lot of thingsI've done in my life I shouldn't
have done, but I was, diagnosedwith it being fatty liver
because of my my weight, butalcoholism also. You know? But,
T.J. (02:45):
How early did you get into, alcohol?
Danny (02:49):
Oh.
Jessica (02:50):
Early twenties.
Danny (02:51):
Yeah. But I started a lot a lot more probably in my about
20 years old. From 18 on, I wasdrinking. Mhmm. But most of the
time was I was I drank too muchbeer, but that's why I got so
big.
But, I was diagnosed with NASH,nonalcoholic liver cirrhosis,
and I bounced around a fewhospitals here. And I just
(03:12):
couldn't be put on thetransplant list because of my
weight. And then I wound up, at,Mayo Clinic in Rochester,
Minnesota at the end, and theytold me if I would sign for to
get a, lap band or not lap band.Sleep. Stomach sleeve surgery
that they would put me on thetransplant list.
T.J. (03:31):
Mhmm.
Danny (03:32):
So I I think I lived there to total of maybe 4 months
in a transplant center. It waswhere they had a lot of people
there. There were hospice andmajor illnesses. We just all
lived in a house together there,but I don't really remember the
last time when I went in. But,when I went in for the long haul
there at the end, I was justlosing my mind all all along the
(03:53):
way.
But by the time I went in forthe long haul, I was in the
hospital for a year. Mhmm. I wasin and out of coma, and it was
rough. But the thing is is once,they called my family and said
they were gonna unplug me in the2 hours away. So I I was past
the point of being able to get atransplant.
T.J. (04:14):
Well, let me interrupt you let me interrupt you for a
minute. Let's go back a littlebit. So you you're in a, you're
you're in a home and you're on awaiting list. And so
Danny (04:26):
do you need to be waiting list for transplant.
T.J. (04:28):
You need to be in that house on a waiting list for a
quick turnover. Is that correct?
Danny (04:34):
You had to be close to the hospital. Yeah.
T.J. (04:35):
Okay. Could you hold a job at that time? Or you I mean, are
you literally chained to well,maybe metaphoric?
Danny (04:42):
Chained to the hospital. Okay. But I was beyond being
able to work. When I finallywhen I realized there was
something wrong with me, I wasat work taking something off of
shelf and just fell face firstinto the shelf. And then
everybody around me could tell Iwasn't feeling good anymore, so
they told me I couldn't comeback until I figured out what
was wrong and overcame back.
I was diagnosed, with stage 4liver cirrhosis.
Jessica (05:06):
How old were you?
Danny (05:07):
I was 30 7 years old. They told me I had 6 months to
live. Fast forward again back towhere I went into the hospital
for a long time. I was there fora year.
T.J. (05:18):
So And what How come you were in the hospital for 12
months?
Danny (05:24):
Because about everything that happened, I was there, you
know, like, in a coma state fora while just waiting for the
transplant.
Jessica (05:30):
It's waiting. You have to have a certain, donor to be
able to get the liver, and so hehad to wait for somebody who had
had I mean, he was £500 and 6foot 4. So It
Danny (05:46):
had to be somewhere.
Jessica (05:48):
Somebody that had that, you know, a liver that would be
able to suffice with the bodyhabitus that he had. So And
blood type. And blood type. Sothey had to weigh. And on top of
that, he was told he had to loseso much weight before his
surgeries as well.
So while he's already feelinghorrible with his liver problem,
(06:08):
he's also having to eat applesall day long.
Danny (06:13):
I drank water water.
Jessica (06:14):
Trying to get down to a certain weight.
Danny (06:17):
Yeah.
Jessica (06:17):
And he, actually, he didn't really make it because
like he said, after when he wasto that point
Danny (06:24):
Mhmm.
Jessica (06:25):
He had 2 hours, and they were telling his wife at
the time that they needed tocome in. He was blessed with a
liver.
Danny (06:35):
Yeah. They called 30 minutes after they called him
and said we're gonna unplug himin 2 hours. They found the liver
that matched me. And,fortunately, there was no one
else on the list nowhere thatthat was right candidate. So
they've said, we're gonna try.
T.J. (06:50):
So while you're waiting, your health is declining, which
led led you going from living ina home kind of in a waiting
period to where you actuallyneeded medical care around the
clock?
Danny (07:04):
Yeah. Basically, in hospice.
T.J. (07:06):
Okay. And how old are you at this time?
Danny (07:09):
37.
T.J. (07:10):
So so you're a young man.
Danny (07:12):
Yeah. And I turned 38 in the hospital. So but, yeah, they
they when they did get thatlever in and they said they'd go
ahead and give me a shot, theydone it. And wasn't nothing
turning around for me. 3 or 4days later, they didn't
understand what was going on.
So they done test or whatever,and they found out that I had,
mucormycosis, which is basicallyfun fungus growing in your body.
(07:38):
I guess that I got that closeto, you know, being gone. And
they didn't even wanna operateon me because if you get mic my
you from my closest period,you've got, like, 30% chance to
live. And then that what if itspreads throughout your body,
nobody had ever lived from it.And it was in multiple parts of
my body, but they finally talkedto me and said he'd been through
(07:59):
so much, and he's got the thenthe liver was a great match.
Mhmm. And, they they said he'sdone through so much. Give it a
shot. You know? Mhmm.
So they did it, and, like, Iwound up losing half of my or 3
quarters of my right kidney,half of my right lung, a big
portion of the top of my rightshoulder, a big chunk out of
(08:19):
the, top of my left thigh. Isthat all of it?
Jessica (08:24):
I think so.
Danny (08:24):
Yeah. And this is right after liver transplant and
stomach sleeve surgery.
Jessica (08:28):
So went back and had to open them up like an autopsy.
Danny (08:32):
And take all
Jessica (08:33):
stuff out. And I'm the
Danny (08:35):
person that has ever lived from it.
T.J. (08:37):
Yeah. You're a walking miracle.
Danny (08:39):
Yeah. I guess. Yeah. I got 1 minute chance, man. That's
why I'm here today.
Amen.
T.J. (08:45):
Where's your head space? I mean, you have a lot of time to
reflect and to think as you'refeeling sick, as your health is
declining. I imagine that youcould go into some pretty dark
places. But what what was yourexperience? Yeah.
Go ahead.
Danny (09:04):
I mean yeah. I mean, I I did have, like, hallucinations
and dreams or whatever. Theywere so vivid that sometimes I
gotta try to realize were theyfake or were they real. You
know? But Mhmm.
Before, I was great. I mean, Ifelt great. I was always in a
good mood. I was con con now 21years old, but he's the only one
(09:33):
who believed it because of thecircumstances. But, yeah, yeah,
he gave me a miracle.
T.J. (09:40):
Well, let's talk about your faith, Danny. As a child,
what were what was an earlyexperience with God? Did you
grow up in the church? Did youhave did you have an encounter
outside of kind of thetraditional parameters of of
faith?
Danny (09:59):
I didn't grow up in what you would consider a Christian
home. We didn't go to church,and we didn't read the Bible,
pray openly, or anything likethat. But I spent I had a
brother that had down syndrome Imentioned to you earlier. Mhmm.
And, he took a lot of myparents' time.
So I spent a lot of the weekendsand and summers and just
whenever I could. I was with mygreat grandparents, and they
(10:22):
would take me to the MethodistChurch in I like Kentucky. And I
was baptized there probably 8, 9years old. I don't even
remember, but by the time I got16 years old and got a job and
started driving, I didn't go andspend as much time with mama and
papa as what what I used to, andI just went away from the church
altogether, basically. And Iguess nobody ever really told me
(10:47):
they were proud of me in mylife.
And as soon as I got out ofschool, I got a good job at a
local plant. And within 4 years,I was a supervisor of the plant.
You know, I patted myself on myown back, and I'm like,
nothing's gonna hold me down. Ican do everything I wanna do on
my own. I don't need nobody, andthat included God in my mind.
You know? So that's the way Ilived my life for a lot of
(11:08):
years. That's what led to thealcoholism and the drug use and
all of that was just I'm tryingto fill a hole in my life where
God should have been. You know?It's temporary joy you can find
at the end of a bottle, butit'll kill you, and you're not
gonna find true joy.
They're not lasting joy. Youknow?
T.J. (11:26):
And this is in this is in retrospect. So during that time
though, were you able toarticulate, hey, this is why I'm
drinking, this is why I'mexperimenting with drugs?
Danny (11:38):
Oh, never. I was just living my life and having fun.
Yeah. No. I never thought ofthat.
You know?
T.J. (11:45):
You were doing what you were doing what Danny wanted to
do? You had cash out of pocketand a good career and
Danny (11:52):
what you jobs. You know? Mhmm. And then, you know, I lost
one of my good jobs because Iwas too good to the people
there. You know?
I tried to resolve issuesinstead of firing people, and it
got me in trouble more than onceuntil the point I lost a job
over there. I they even told me,you you we didn't hire you to be
a minister. We hired you to be aOh, wow. So,
T.J. (12:12):
let let's go a little deeper in this. You really
weren't faith connected, and yethere you have employers saying
we didn't hire you to be aminister.
Danny (12:22):
I've always had a helpful heart. Like, I think that God
put something in me, but Ididn't know where it came from.
You know? Mhmm. They would Iwould counsel people.
Yeah. I would never pray withpeople and such, but I always
wanted to try to help peoplewith their problems. You know? I
always had that mindset, And Ifind a lot of it because some of
the stuff I had been through,and I was like, I don't wanna
(12:43):
wind up there. You know?
Mhmm. I had a very rough firstmarriage. You know? She we were
both alcoholics and such and didall this stuff, and she was more
with the other drug, and shejust wouldn't give it up. After
I got out of the hospital, Ifound out she would she'd done
found boyfriends while I was inthe hospital sick.
She thought I was gonnaconvinced I was gonna die, I
guess. But and then I came homewhen I tried to, you know,
(13:07):
prepare things, but shecontinued with that type of
behavior until the point shejust told me to go home. She
found another guy. So that was aa long, rough marriage. So
T.J. (13:19):
Yeah. Drugs, alcohol, and maintaining relationships.
That's a real hard thing to dofor anybody.
Danny (13:24):
And I was gone for work most of the time. The jobs I had
were good jobs, but I literallyworked 80, 90 hours a week
sometimes.
T.J. (13:33):
You were pushing that body pretty hard, Danny.
Danny (13:36):
Oh, I was. I tell people I I went from February 12th, my
birthday, until, Christmas oneyear without a day off. So,
yeah, work was my god kindathen, I guess.
T.J. (13:51):
In your journey, where did you find yourself reconnecting
with your faith? So you were yougo to your great grandparents
and you attended worship, butwhen when were you reconnected
with your faith? When did Godreenter the
Danny (14:10):
picture? My son, which is another hole, he got he got some
kind of disease. He never reallygot diagnosed properly, but he
was in and out of a children'shospital for 3 years straight.
Mhmm. We thought we was gonnaput him in everything.
T.J. (14:23):
Is this after your
Danny (14:25):
Yeah. I got
T.J. (14:26):
sick. Before? Okay.
Danny (14:27):
Right before. Yeah. But, Yeah. We didn't know if he's
gonna make it one night. Theycame in and told me.
He said, we don't even know ifhe's gonna make it through the
night, and it was just me andhim here there that night. And I
just kinda sit slept in thechair and was there with him
when he woke up the nextmorning. And he woke up. He sat
up in the bed. Like, he feltbetter, a lot better that
(14:48):
morning.
And he looked at me and said,dad, when I get better, I wanna
go to church. I want you to takeme because you need to go too. I
mean, in that situation, and hesaid that it it went into my
heart. You know? I was like, oh,okay.
Alright. And then I, got back towork after he got a little
(15:09):
better. It was probably a coupleof weeks later. Eddie Miller,
which is a member of theOwensboro Cumberland
Presbyterian Church, asked me ifI would come to a chicken
dinner. I was having barbecuechicken at their church, I
guess, on Wednesday night orsomething.
T.J. (15:21):
Yeah. That's a hard thing to pass up.
Danny (15:23):
Alright. Yeah. That's £500. You offered me some
chicken. I'm coming, but but myson had just said that to me,
and I was like, you know what?
My son said he wanted to go tochurch. I'll be there. And I've
never left. I've I've I'vestarted at that church, and I
wasn't a Christian really yet.I've seen it in other people,
and I used to sit there in thepew and just pray to God and
(15:45):
beg.
They're like, I wanna have whatthey got. Mhmm. I wanna believe.
I see the faith that they have.I see the joy they find from it,
but I I don't have that.
It's like I need to see it orsomething. You know? And I
prayed that, you know, the wholetime I would go there, and
there'd be nights I'd be up allnight drinking still. And I get
up early on Sunday and go. I hada guy pull me to the side once.
Dumbass smelling like alcohol,but I was trying still. You
(16:08):
know? And somebody sent me on anEmmaus walk during that time.
Mhmm. I don't know if you knowwhat that is or anybody
listening to mine, but I thinkthat's a Just
T.J. (16:16):
brief for those who don't know, briefly describe the
Emmaus walk.
Jessica (16:21):
Can't.
Danny (16:21):
Yeah. You can't really say a whole lot about it. It's a
4 day thing you go to, and, yougo there just to experience God.
Mhmm. You would be you'd be withour 30 other women or 30 other
men when you go, and it's just aa walk through the life of
Christ.
Kinda like the the walk toEmmaus. They were there with
Jesus the whole time and didn'trealize it, and I think that's
what Emmaus walk is. You'll bethere the whole time with Jesus.
(16:43):
And, generally, you'll realizeit by the time that the 4 days
is up.
T.J. (16:47):
Tell me more about how that transformed, how that
changed you. That part you cantell me about.
Danny (16:54):
The big part I took away from it was my changed my
priorities in life. Mhmm. Theway that I was working, and I
wanted to spend more time tryingto be a dad to my kids. And that
was the big thing for me. And Iknew I needed to slow down with
the drinking, and I did.
I told people at the Emmaus Walkthe first time the first 4 days
I went in a row without drinkingin 30 years was at my Emmaus
Walk.
T.J. (17:14):
Wow. Yeah. That's an accomplishment.
Danny (17:18):
Yeah. And, you know, I think really when it came down
to me stopping is when I juststarted feeling bad from it. And
I started slowing down, and thenit was probably 6 months after I
slowing down is when I wasdiagnosed. And I worked with a
guy named Scott Brown at thecounter at this electrical place
that I worked at, and he had hada brain tumor pretty recently to
(17:40):
that, probably a year before.And he he come in all the time
happy, and he'd do his job andhe was happy.
And one day, I just finallylooked at him. I said, what is
in your mind that you're goingthrough what you're going
through? And and you seem likeit ain't bothering me. He's
like, Jesus has my back,brother. He said, I'm in no
matter what with this.
I either go see God, or I couldstay back here a little longer
(18:02):
if whenever he makes a choiceof. He was a true Christian man.
Still is. But, yeah, things likethat, he was a big help as well.
You know?
But, yeah, whenever I got sick,I looked to God, and I was like,
look. I've been trying thisthing out. Here's the shot. You
know? I need your help.
And after that, you know, withall that in my mind that I had
(18:22):
that only 2 months left to live,I'd I'd pray myself to sleep
some nights. Kept my Bible postand started reading it and
really trying to find it andthen you know? So it was really
my illness going through all ofthat that really locked it in
for me.
Jessica (18:36):
Well, the top line kind of helped as well. It's really
weird how it all came togetherbecause when Cage was sick, then
you got invited to church, thenyou did the Emmaus walk. This is
when his heart health starteddeteriorating. He had
deteriorating really worse andworse until he that's when he
(18:56):
and then he found out he had aproblem. And at that point, he
was going to the OwensboroCumberland Presbyterian Church.
And if it wasn't for some of thefinancial aid that that church
was able to offer him and hisfamily at that time, he wouldn't
have been able to get to MayoClinic. You know? He wouldn't
his family wouldn't have beenable to eat. He was having, you
(19:19):
know, like, his floors and histrailer house are falling apart.
Danny (19:23):
Yeah. We had a water heater. What has
Jessica (19:25):
to was at that point. And to see that that with that
timeline, how all of that rightbefore he went to Mayo Clinic
with God finally, you know,showing himself at those times
is what was able to, I think, toget Danny through, being at the
hospital and being through allthat. Because finally, he saw
(19:46):
it. He saw what he was. Wasthere for him.
Danny (19:51):
The first thing I ever run into my life, I couldn't fix
by myself.
T.J. (19:55):
That's pretty scary, isn't it?
Danny (19:57):
Yeah. I was like, I need you now. I said, if you can get
me the other side of this, I'lluse the whole rest of my life
doing whatever you lead me to. Iwon't say no to nothing. And I'm
sitting here today.
T.J. (20:10):
So, really, as you're kind of putting your life back
together and examining yourpriorities and asking questions,
you know, how does God kind ofwork in the world and in my life
and in my family's life is whenyour health starts
deteriorating. Yeah. That's aprime opportunity for a
(20:32):
relationship with God to reallybe strengthened or fall apart.
It's kind of a fragile, fragile
Danny (20:41):
time. It was. Yeah. I think that was my chance. It's
like, either you got you knowwhat I mean?
I had that, the Paul got struckby a lightning moment. You know?
T.J. (20:50):
Alright. So, after you go through multiple health scares
for your son, and then of coursefor yourself, and you're on this
side of it. You're regainingyour strength and clearing up
your head. How does that leadinto kind of where you are
(21:13):
today? Where does your callingin ministry, how does all that
play in your in your journey?
Danny (21:21):
Well, you know, they told me I might be brain damaged. So
it took me a long time to get myhead straight, and I think
that's all my ex at the time waswaiting for is once she's saying
that was alright to get kickedout. She kicked me out. So I
actually lived in a guy's carfor a little while, here at
Owensboro because I was payingall of their bills. And while I
(21:42):
was in Minnesota, I had met onetime, I went up there just for
some health stuff afterwards.
And I got up Sunday morning andjust googled nearest church, the
Mayo Clinic, and found 1 and gota cab and went and met these
people. Well, while I was livingin the car, I was texting them,
and they was like, you just needto get away for a while. You
should come up here, and you canstay with us, and you can be
(22:03):
close to Mayo and help get justyour health straight.
T.J. (22:06):
And and folk folks from the church that you found are
the
Danny (22:10):
In Minnesota. Okay. So I moved up there and stayed in
their basement until I gotfinancially well enough to get
me an apartment up there. And Iwas going back and forth to Mayo
into the gym, getting myselfback to where I needed to be.
And that's not that Jessica.
Jessica (22:25):
I was gonna well, he met me. Yeah.
Danny (22:27):
This is where
Jessica (22:28):
This is the weird part because we both went to the
church Owensboro Church, andthat had been my church for a
long time. And when he wastrying to get himself healthy
again Mhmm. He he came into thechurch
Danny (22:46):
Yeah.
Jessica (22:47):
Super skinny, couldn't barely keep his pants on.
Absolutely. Belt that was sotight, like, his pants were
looped about a foot away fromhis waist. And I just remember
sitting there because I was inthere I always have my donuts
and coffee in the morning witheverybody. And he came in and
(23:07):
pastor shook his hand and so Ioffered him a seat.
This is before, you know,anything, and I just offered him
a seat. And I was married at thetime to my first husband, and I
was actually pregnant with mydaughter and sat him down and
was just chatting with him, youknow, and enjoying his company.
(23:27):
And I was like, well, hey. Like,nobody else said anything to
him. It was just me.
And I was like, you should cometo my Sunday school. You know?
So it was just a very randommoment there that we both
remember, and then I didn't seehim again for gosh. How long was
it?
Danny (23:45):
Probably probably.
Jessica (23:46):
It was probably a year. Yeah. And he had messaged me
when he was up in Mayo because,like, right after he talked to
me at the church, he went toMayo or, I mean, to Minnesota.
And, so we hadn't talked. Andthen, like, a year later, I get
a message on Facebook.
How are you doing? I'm healthyand up in Minnesota. What's
(24:09):
going on? I'm like
Danny (24:11):
And just to make the story clear there, her husband
did the same thing to her thatmy wife did to me.
Jessica (24:16):
Yeah. He left me.
Danny (24:18):
Yeah. And, she when we started talking, Adeline was 4
months old.
Jessica (24:24):
She was
Danny (24:25):
Adeline is my daughter.
Jessica (24:29):
6 or 7 months old. She just started crawling.
Danny (24:32):
Yeah.
Jessica (24:32):
Yeah. So so we were both divorced.
Danny (24:36):
Yeah. And And I was in Minnesota when she was in
Kentucky.
Jessica (24:39):
So make that clear, y'all. We were Yeah.
T.J. (24:43):
Well, Danny, you're in Minnesota. What led you to send
Jessica a Facebook message?
Jessica (24:53):
That was
Danny (24:54):
doctor Doctor Newton. Yeah. Doctor
Jessica (24:57):
Newton was a savior for me during during my divorce. Him
and his wife, Vicky, kinda tookme under their wing and would
help with my kids Mhmm. Wheneverthey needed to. So I spent a lot
of time talking to them andchatting. Well, I guess there
was a picture he just liked ofme, so he posted it on Facebook
on his Facebook.
Yeah. And that's when Danny sawit and
Danny (25:21):
I mean Oh, okay. I was like, how you doing?
Jessica (25:26):
Yeah. But,
Danny (25:27):
yeah, we talked on the phone for 4 months or so. Mhmm.
And then, I flew back toOwensboro for a a week, and we,
went out and everything for thatweek. And I went back to
Minnesota and, yeah, it took mea couple months to gather my you
know, close-up all my loose endsthere because I was working at a
church there as a outreachminister. So
T.J. (25:46):
Oh, okay. Alright. So, let's go back a little bit. You
moved to Minnesota. You'reliving in a car.
And I wanted to ask
Danny (25:53):
I lived in a car before I went to Minnesota.
T.J. (25:56):
And living in the car before, but you can't live in a
car. And then the church thatyou found, they allowed you to
live in their basementtemporarily
Danny (26:05):
until you found it before. A guy, a a man and
woman.
T.J. (26:08):
Oh, okay. You lived in not the church basement,
Danny (26:10):
but the Their house stayed at the house, and then I
got me an apartment. But thechurch offered me a job cleaning
the church. Mhmm. And I wasdoing that, but I one day, the
pastor there, he's like, I gottago do a couple visitations at
the hospital. Won't you won'twon't you come with me?
And by the time he got back,he's like, I'm making you an
outreach ministry. It's like,I've never seen anybody be so
(26:32):
outgoing and just walk up toanybody and start talking to him
in my life. So he made me anoutreach minister. So and I was
like, well, I wanted to getordained. You know?
Mhmm. That was a anondenominational church. Mhmm.
And, he told me he he put meunder my wing, and they would
ordain me there. You know?
So I thought I found my calling.You know? Mhmm. But But when me
(26:54):
and her did start talking, I dida lot of praying. You know?
Like, what do you want me to do?And then when I was on the
visit, though, me and herattended the Owensboro
Cumberland Presbyterian Church,and Terry Moss is the was
teaching the Sunday school, andhe told me so I wish I had
somebody to help me teach theSunday school class. And I
thought about that the wholetime I'm back in Minnesota, you
(27:15):
know, those 2 months I spentbefore I moved back. And when I
moved back, I was like, let mehelp you do it. And that's kinda
where I got my whole starttoward the direction I'm at now.
You know? I started teaching theSunday school class, and it grew
and grew to the point we werehaving bringing extra chairs and
about to have to get a differentroom before I actually left and
started pastoring to our orfilling pulpits. Alright. That's
(27:36):
the other
Jessica (27:36):
crazy part, though, is in between all that is when you
came back to the church, andthey all saw that I was dating
him.
Danny (27:45):
Oh, yeah. My own pastor pulled me to the side and
threatened him. If you heardthat girl, she's like my
daughter now.
Jessica (27:53):
I was kinda his loophole into the church, to be
honest because
Danny (27:58):
All everybody knew me from was my past. Yeah.
Jessica (28:01):
From his past. I'm like, what is she doing? With
Danny (28:03):
him. Yeah. It was
T.J. (28:08):
So, Jessica, as you guys are growing closer together,
Danny (28:12):
what
T.J. (28:13):
do you guys text and talk about? How did that relationship
kinda get nurtured and and grow?
Jessica (28:20):
Gosh. That's been, like, 10 years ago. Yeah.
Danny (28:22):
But I think it was because we were completely
honest with one another. Mhmm.Because we wasn't face to face.
Jessica (28:27):
Gone through, divorces, and we were somebody we both
could talk to. He was verybroken.
Danny (28:36):
Yeah.
Jessica (28:37):
Medically broken.
Danny (28:39):
Yeah. I'm annoyed at that point in time.
Jessica (28:41):
Yeah. And, I I guess I found him a little intriguing in
that way too with me being inthe medical profession. I always
tell everybody he's my, like,medical experiment.
Danny (28:53):
I don't live with her. Honestly, I'll tell you that the
first conversation that we everhad where we actually talked on
the phone, and I told her Isaid, they said that there's a
chance that I might have to havea, a kidney transplant. At the
time, they thought I would. And,she's like, I'll give you one.
Can I give you one?
And she meant it. She literallymeant it, and I'm like, this I'm
(29:15):
gonna marry this girl to be thatkind. You know? Right. Hey.
We might need to stop for asecond. I need my battery's low.
I'm a have to plug in, buddy.
T.J. (29:25):
Okay. Alright. Do you need to when you say
Danny (29:30):
need to go get a cable and plug this in.
T.J. (29:32):
Alright. Absolutely. Go ahead.
Danny (29:34):
I'll stay here. Pop
Jessica (29:36):
it if
Danny (29:37):
we had to. Yeah. Yeah. But we got the the them screens
going dimmer. Okay.
Jessica (29:44):
Yeah. Sorry. We're really back and forth on all of
our stories. He's got such a bigone. It's hard to keep the
timeline in play.
T.J. (29:52):
Well, yeah. But it's kind of fun because I I can I can
ask, well, for my own benefit sothat I can follow, But it slows
Danny down a little bit too, sothat he can so yeah? Because I I
want to live in that moment andbe empathetic to it and to to
(30:12):
best understand Danny and you.And he Danny Danny, you're ready
to jump to the next chapter.It's like, okay, that chapter is
open.
Danny (30:20):
Now I wanna
T.J. (30:21):
go to this other chapter.
Danny (30:23):
Yeah. I'm sorry. In a good way.
T.J. (30:25):
In a good way. No. No.
Jessica (30:26):
He was trying to make this kinda quick for you because
and it there's no quickness tothis. He just
Danny (30:30):
That's all I was trying to do is make it minute. Give
you this you know, I've toldthis so many times. At one
point, I said it so much thatshe's even like, you know,
you're more than just that. Andshe was right.
Jessica (30:42):
He used to talk about his story for, like, the first 2
or 3 years we were together. Andyou know how it's how hard it is
for somebody to be like, youdon't have to keep living
through that all the time. Yeah.You're gonna have a future, and
you need to start living in thenow rather than what happened to
you way back when because that'sliterally all he would talk
(31:04):
about forever. And, you know,I'm living with him.
We're married. I hear this storyall the time, and I'm like, you
have got to get some newstories. I'm like but on top of
it, I was not there through hissickness.
T.J. (31:21):
Right.
Jessica (31:21):
You know? So I the I was an outsider at that point. I
was at the church praying forhim while he was in the hospital
because we the same church hehad just started going. I tell
him all the time that the firsttime I ever saw him was he was
in in front of the doors. I putI think he was putting on Cage's
coat or holding Cage's coat tocome his son Cage to come, to
(31:45):
leave, and he was, like, big oldboy.
You know? And he was big oldguy, with nothing but black on.
Everything was saggy and baggy.Yeah. I was I didn't really talk
to him a whole lot then.
Danny (32:00):
Yeah.
Jessica (32:03):
But that that's where that's what I remember him like.
And then I remember his kid,Cage, who I would literally turn
around and go into a differentroom because he was so loud and
boisterous, and he was too muchfor me. And I was like, oh my
gosh. Like, yeah, I love him todeath, and man, he got it. He
had Jesus in him.
T.J. (32:26):
So, Jessica, what what was your, reaction of that, well,
relatively brief time gap ofseeing Danny, as he was going
through health issues andalcoholism and all kinds of
stuff. And then fast forward towhen he shows up in Owensboro
(32:47):
Owensboro again, and here, he'swearing a belt that's 8 sizes
too large.
Jessica (32:55):
This this is the funny part. Okay? So I the whole time
I was sitting there, I was like,man, I wish I could just take
him and go shopping with him. Ilike to be able to buy him a
wardrobe. He deserves this.
You would've guessed down theroad I bought his whole life. He
(33:17):
literally came to me with a oneof those duffle bags. One duffle
bag. That's all he had. He hadnothing else.
Yep. Never took anything fromhis other life. He let them just
have it. He was always giving hedidn't care. He was, you know,
that that was fine.
And then that's where he came tome.
Danny (33:39):
And With a duffel bag and dreams and ministry. Yeah.
Jessica (33:45):
Which is where everybody was like, just what
are you doing?
Danny (33:48):
Yeah. What
Jessica (33:48):
are you doing? Like, I always told miss because I could
see more in him than what hisouter appearance was. And I I
always said I've I think I'vebeen a pretty good people reader
for most of my life, and, yeah,I could see the softness and the
soul he had, and a lot of peoplecouldn't see that.
Danny (34:10):
Mhmm. Yeah.
Jessica (34:11):
So, so while he me in the last how many years, I mean,
we've met
Danny (34:17):
No. No.
Jessica (34:18):
I mean, the church loves him. Everybody loves him.
So, you know It
Danny (34:22):
was a big change from who I used to be.
Jessica (34:25):
Little connection was kind it's definitely a god thing
too, and it happened at a reallygood time for both of us because
not only could I help him, hecould help me. I mean, I was
going through a lot too. I mean,this was a lot lot. But
Danny (34:39):
Yeah. With me not being at that point, I couldn't work.
I couldn't even carry a 12 packof bottled water. You know? So
she's like, you just help withAdeline, and, I gotta work all
the time.
So until you get better, that'sit. So I even that's when I
said, you know, I wanna go toseminary or whatever, but I'm
gonna wait until Adeline startsschool so she don't ever have to
go to day care. So I did
Jessica (34:59):
that. I got my very own house husband.
Danny (35:02):
Yeah. I was a house husband, and I got to take care
of that baby. That's why I said,hey, Adeline's just like my
baby. I'm a really choppy.Couldn't be any closer to a god
given child.
No. She is a god given child.Let me take that question.
T.J. (35:15):
Alright. So you're at the Owensboro church and, teaching a
Sunday school class, and youwere saying earlier that, it was
growing. Talk more about thetransition from being a Sunday
school teacher into pursuing thevocation of minister.
Jessica (35:35):
That's actually really hard. Yeah. I thought Because
pastor Tim, like, wasn't toosure about it.
Danny (35:42):
Yeah. And I get it now. I'm looking back. But yeah.
Jessica (35:45):
How he was. Look. He he gave me a face.
Danny (35:48):
And I came back quick.
Jessica (35:49):
Give a face.
Danny (35:51):
Because he
Jessica (35:51):
was just like, are you I don't I don't know why anyone
wants to do this. Like, he justwasn't real sure about it. But
after after he had been in that,Sunday school room for so long,
we kinda taught it kindatogether. Yeah. That was kinda
his side wing.
I read all of the stuff. Yeah.And and, I think after he saw
(36:14):
that that was growing and how wewere able to grow a lot of the
young couples there, That'swhen, you know, you went back. I
mean, I was like, I wanna be a Iwas asking as a pastor all the
time. You know?
And finally, I think he waslike, think you're ready.
Danny (36:28):
Yeah. I I was just like, maybe I could just be the
assistant pastor here. That'sall I wanted. Mhmm. You know?
I I've seen that maybe I didhave a gift for ministry. You
know? And, he said, well, yougotta go to school. And that
took me probably a year before Iwas like, alright. I'll go to
school.
You know? And I
Jessica (36:44):
wanna do that at all.
Danny (36:45):
I did not do that in school.
Jessica (36:47):
Y'all, he is so against college education. Yeah.
Danny (36:52):
I did not wanna go.
Jessica (36:53):
No joke. He was like, that just gives people a big
head.
Danny (36:57):
And
Jessica (36:58):
I'm like, really? So is that what you're telling me? I
am. My husband.
Danny (37:03):
And, you know, I went into the community policy here
and signed up for classes, and Iwas like, I don't know if this
is gonna work or not. You know,I got anxiety and ADHD and
everything, but I think that iswhat made it work for me. Yeah.
Because I was so afraid offailing that I poured everything
into it, and I made the dean'slist my very first semester at
47 years. I'm 46 years old.
Jessica (37:23):
There was another blessing that he didn't know he
even had. When he was in highschool, he had taken so many
classes for college. He wasalmost done.
Danny (37:32):
Yeah. Didn't even know it.
Jessica (37:33):
He didn't even know it. And so he just needed, like it
was a another year of
Danny (37:38):
or No. I think I had a year and a half, 2 years of of a
community college to get my to
Jessica (37:43):
get my associate. Bunch of credits that he didn't even
realize. And then by the end ofhis 2 years, he even made
another loophole because theythought he was gonna have to
take another class. Rememberthat? There was a
Danny (37:57):
I don't know.
Jessica (37:57):
They changed some they changed something in their, what
do you call it? Curriculum.Curriculum to where one of his
classes ended up counting. Oh,yeah. That's right.
Yeah.
Danny (38:08):
All of a
Jessica (38:09):
sudden, he was just done.
Danny (38:10):
I went to go take classes and get books and stuff, and
they're like, you're notenrolled. And I'm like, I
already enrolled. I got 2classes to take. And by the end
of that day, they was like, oh,you have 2 other credits. You're
done.
So that was great when I startedthe BOSS program immediately.
Yeah.
T.J. (38:25):
Well, before we get into the program of alternate
studies, Danny, has yourperspective on education
softened any?
Danny (38:32):
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. A lot of if anything, I
think you could go to collegeand take something you don't
even care about, and you'd learnyou'd be more organized and more
goal oriented. Mhmm.
I'm I've always been kind of a Iwanna get it done now, or I'm
not gonna do it. Mhmm. You know,even the big jobs I take on a
car, I walk out there, and I'mlike, I'll work all day until
(38:53):
I'm falling apart without eveneating to get something done
then. So, yeah, taking long termgoals, that was hard for me to
accept, but I I think it helpedopen that up in my mind now. You
know?
Jessica (39:04):
Yeah. Like, way more being supportive of when the
kids I mean, we got 2 olderboys, and one of them is about
to go and, graduate this year.And, he's getting ready to do
automotive. And Yeah.
Danny (39:17):
He's gonna go get a degree in automotive. Guys are
excited about it. Yeah. He is
Jessica (39:21):
just so stuffed that, you know, we'll have a kid in
college. So
T.J. (39:27):
Alright. Danny, you got a taste of ministry in Minnesota
and then back in Owensboro atthe Owensboro Cumberland
Presbyterian Church throughSunday school and your calling
and you revisited your calling,and then you revisited one more
year because you weren't realsure about going back to school.
(39:49):
Yeah. And then I interruptedyou. You were about to talk
about the program of alternatestudies.
Okay. Now you can run with theprogram of alternate studies.
Danny (39:58):
I'll let Michael Kalls, by the way. I'll shout out to
him. But he he was the, main guyover the past I think now he's
vice president of the wholeseminary or something. He he
stepped up somewhere. But He
T.J. (40:08):
he's a man of
Danny (40:09):
many talents.
T.J. (40:11):
He's a man of many talents, many jobs.
Danny (40:14):
Yeah. And, when I first started the POSS program, I was
like, how many quest how manyclasses can you take at a time?
And I was like, well, we hadsomebody take 9 once, but he
failed. I was like, but I cantake 9, and they were like,
yeah, if you'd wanna try. So Itook 9 classes at the time all
the way through.
I think I set a record gettingthrough fast. But Alright. And I
(40:35):
I was successful. I think I wasall a straight a's, but maybe 3
b's or something all the waythrough. So Mhmm.
I was able to take big chunksout of it because, again, I
don't like to wait for results,so I took it as quick as I
could.
T.J. (40:50):
So what's next, Danny, in terms of ministry and life?
Danny (40:55):
You caught me at a very vulnerable time, actually. Mhmm.
This past I I stayed at MountOlivet for the past be almost 5
years in October. Mhmm. Youknow, when I started to go fill
pulpits, I went to that church,and I fell in love with them.
And, you know, me beingdisabled, I can only make a very
small amount of money. So, youknow, I thought that part of my
(41:15):
calling is I can go helpchurches that that can't pay a
whole lot for a pastor. Mhmm.And I went to Mount Olive and
fell in love with them. And,again, I stayed there almost 5
years now, but Easter was mylast Sunday there.
We got to do a baptism andeverything. And we and we had a
the whole we did the whole holyweek celebration. It was hard to
leave. I I mean, I really dolove those guys with all of my
(41:36):
heart. You know?
I spent time with them and theirfamilies and grown to know all
of them. And it's hard to leave.It really is. I even I even had
second thoughts about it becauseit's hard to leave people, but
I, you know, I keep tellingmyself in the back of my head
that's that's gonna be part ofministry. You know?
And I know it's time. God wastelling me deep in my heart and
heart too that there's somethingelse for me, and I don't know
what it is. So, yeah, you caughtme at a vulnerable time with
(41:58):
that. I'm I'm fixing to jump inmy car and drive cross country
by myself. I need to get awaysometimes, but to do some prayer
and to camping and mostly somestuff.
T.J. (42:09):
Share more of what it's like to be in this stage of your
life and your stage of your yourfaith and your ministry because
you're in a season of change,and yet the near future is
unknown. Well, it's alwaysunknown. But in terms of your
vocation, your calling, and whatthat may look like, you it's
(42:29):
typically when when we're inministry or really any vocation,
when you step away from thevocation, you have something
else lined up.
Danny (42:38):
Yeah. I don't. But in
T.J. (42:39):
this case, you don't. So
Danny (42:41):
No. I'm waiting. I'm I'm trying to just find what God
wants for me. I'm actually Itell people all the time, one of
my pieces of advice is agoldfish will never find out in
the ocean unless he jumps outthe boat. Okay.
So that's what I've done. Youknow? I kinda take my own
advice. If I say it, if youpreach it, you gotta live it.
You know?
So Right. I I like I'm I've beenworking as a chaplain at the
hospital my wife works at. Mhmm.I do enjoy that. But, again, you
(43:05):
know, when God tells you, yougotta go, you gotta go.
And I don't know what it is yet.Man, I I don't wanna say the
wrong way, but I've beendisappointed that what you know,
churches are just getting emptynowadays. There's gotta be
another way. You know? And I I Iknow there's been a lot of
people trying to figure it out.
Like, what do we do now? And andthat's where I'm at. What do we
(43:26):
do now? Yeah. Again, you know,the church is in inside the 4
walls, and it it needs to go outand start being charged again.
Mhmm. And I think a lot of thatis churches that become
protective. We almost have to benowadays. You know? I think the
most rebellious thing you can doin life now is be a Christian.
So I think we've become inwardlyfocused because of that. We've
(43:49):
gone into protect mode, and wecan't minister like that. You
know?
T.J. (43:55):
Yeah. It's difficult to minister when you're in survival
mode, protection mode. Yeah. Andand we often are resistant to
change and and we can becomevery defensive. It's hard to
share the gospel when you'redistracted and when you're
defensive.
Danny (44:15):
Yes. And when we get too worried about the rules and
regulations, how much differentare we from the Pharisees? You
know what I mean? Jesus hung outwith sinners. So, yeah, I don't
know what the next step is forme.
I don't know what it looks like.
T.J. (44:32):
Well, besides, feeling vulnerable, what other emotions
would you attach to that list?
Danny (44:39):
Anxious? Well, I hate it. Yeah. I'm very anxious. You
know, I don't yep.
Not not being attached by thepaycheck, and that that maybe
that's something to do with it.You know? God wants me to do
something. Maybe another way ofreaching people. Like I said, I
still wanna probably wind uppastoring the church, but I
(45:00):
gotta make sure that whatever hewants me to do lines up with
that.
You know? Because I do enjoy it.It's very hard to walk away from
being a a pastor. I enjoy it. Ilove you know?
Like I've said before, I'vealways loved helping people.
It's just a continuation ofthat. I just like to help people
with the problems, you know,when God's the way the only way
(45:20):
to really fix a problem.
T.J. (45:22):
But even feeling vulnerable and anxious, there's
a stronger call to to to stepaway from what is familiar, what
you have known for the past 5years. Talk more about that.
Talk about what that that it is,that thing that is driving you
(45:45):
to step away from thecomfortable, If you can, maybe
we'll have to swing back aroundand revisit. Maybe there isn't
language.
Danny (45:55):
I beg like, what I you're not gonna go catch a deer if you
don't don't go deer hunting. Youknow what I mean? Mhmm. If you
just stay in one place, maybeyou're not gonna find what it
is, and I don't know what it is.You know?
And I probably go pull somepulpits and stuff like that.
Maybe that's what I wanted todo. I have no idea. You know?
(46:15):
For the longest time, I thoughtI knew what what my calling was,
and it's not.
So what is it? You know?
T.J. (46:22):
They must be freeing at the same time to be able to step
into the unknown.
Danny (46:28):
But you know what God did for me and my illness? Maybe
makes me a little more bravethan the average. You know? If
he had my back through that,then I ain't worried about
stopping away from the churchfor a little bit till I find
where he needs me to go next,you know.
T.J. (46:41):
Maybe you have literally faced death on more than one
occasion. So what what may befearful or anxious driven for
some, maybe it didn't registerwith you in the same way.
Jessica (46:56):
Yeah. It doesn't.
Danny (46:58):
My anxiety is
Jessica (46:59):
It doesn't. This is where that all goes on me.
Danny (47:06):
Yeah. Yeah. She's the one.
Jessica (47:07):
This is where we make great team because he doesn't
think about all that stuff. And,thankfully, we've been blessed
to have a structure in our life.Mhmm. I'm kind of the structure.
Yeah.
Danny (47:20):
Oh, definitely. She keeps trying to know that.
Jessica (47:22):
Allows him to still be able to do the things he gets to
do and which is great becausethat's where he needs to be. He
needs to be able to have thatwhat's what's the word again?
Danny (47:34):
Freedom.
Jessica (47:34):
I guess freedom. Yeah. Yeah. The freedom to try new
things, and he's not scared totry. So
T.J. (47:43):
Yeah. There there's something wrong in any of our
relationships if we are noturged to seek and discover, to
be creative, to dream, that canbe stifling for the the the
development of the relationship,relationship with God or spouse
(48:04):
or a loved one, a child, whoeverthat may be.
Danny (48:07):
Yeah. Yeah. She's been a big part of me. I mean, I've
never gotten here without her.She doesn't like, keeps me in
order.
I'm not good with structure.Like, I'm going on this trip in
next week maybe, and I've notmade any plans. I just I'll fly
by the shirt. So, I mean, she'sthe one that kinda, yeah, she
grounds me, and I love her.
T.J. (48:29):
Well, Danny, you have experienced and seen a lot of
things. What advice do you havefor somebody who may be facing,
a tremendous health scare thatis going to change the way that
they currently live, or maybe aloved one. What helped you walk
(48:50):
through those life and deathexperiences, and and what advice
do you have?
Danny (48:57):
Mine was just faith. Strong faith. I just knew he
wasn't gonna let me die. Youknow, I don't know if that was
part of my calling at the timethat if he was getting me
through that, I would do whatI'm doing now or whatever. But,
yeah, he I just had faith that Iwasn't gonna die.
Like I said, the only personthat didn't believe it was my
son or that did believe me. Itwas my son. So it was a bad
(49:17):
circumstance to be in, and hepulled me through it. So, I mean
but I believed he would. Mhmm.
Truly believed that he would,and he did. And I don't like to
give that advice. I kinda I I Istumbled on that just a bit
because I did believe there aresome things that people that
have faith and still, you know,succumb to what illness they
have.
T.J. (49:38):
Sure. Absolutely. But I was wondering what helped you
through.
Danny (49:42):
Yeah. It was faith and my kids. I knew the life they would
have if I didn't make it.
T.J. (49:48):
Let's talk about the Cumberland Presbyterian Church
that the 3 of us are a part
Danny (49:53):
of. Yes.
T.J. (49:54):
And, in this time of transition, what is your hope
for the church now and in thefuture? You alluded earlier
about, looking and and livingoutside of the walls of the
church, but put some meat tothat. What what could that look
like? What does that mean?
Danny (50:14):
More outreach. I think we definitely need to outreach
more. Mhmm. I mean, they look wegot a couple churches here in
town that are just growing andgrowing and growing. I met the
pastor recently at a an Emmauswalk, and I have tattoos.
But this man had full sleevetattoos. All of them are
religious and stuff. Didn't looklike he'd be a pastor at all,
(50:36):
but this is his church, youknow, and they got they're
they're connected to one of thedrug and alcohol places here.
Mhmm. And and that's the way Ifound my faith.
You know? That's who I was, andthen it would the only thing
strong enough strong enough theonly thing that ever made me
wanna change that was Jesus. AndI know in my heart, I would not
have changed if it wasn't fromJesus, and I think that's that's
(50:59):
what stands true with a wholelot of those people. So, I mean,
when you go on out and you'regetting people that are broken
and you fix their life and theycome to Jesus, well, you're
gonna have a hop in church. Theypraise Jesus in that church, and
they're busting out at theseams.
You know? I've seen the picturesof the men's breakfast, and it's
overflowing. And it's because ofoutreach. They're going out and
finding centers, and when theyfind Jesus, they're loyal to
(51:21):
where they found it. So, yeah,they're just looking for Jesus.
It doesn't matter what the rulesand regulations and you know
what I mean? And I thinksometimes, again, as we went
into defense mode that we forgetwho we was maybe at one time.
You know, I know there's peoplethat's been Christian your whole
life. She has. Mhmm.
You know, maybe they don't knowwhat it's like to not have
(51:42):
Christ, but when you haven't hadand you find him, man, you're on
fire. I love so that's my bestthing to see is when somebody
finds Jesus.
T.J. (51:51):
Mhmm. It it it can be contagious for sure.
Danny (51:54):
Oh my god. That's why I still go back and this one this
last Emmaus walk was my firsttime on the the minister team.
And there was a guy there that Iknew well, and he he balled
throughout the whole thing. Andme and him's had breakfast
since, and it's just amazing tosee somebody find Jesus and
change their whole life. Youknow?
That's all I wanna do. I mean,you can't do that in 4 walls. So
(52:16):
the church has to get we gottaget better at outreach or
something somehow, and I don'tknow what it looks like. You
know? I know everybody's lookingfor outreach that works, but you
gotta outreach to broken people.
T.J. (52:29):
Jessica, you've you've been a long time member at
Owensboro Church. What are yourhopes for the church now and in
the future?
Jessica (52:40):
Well, yeah, it's been my home for 15 years, and going
for longer than most of them,which is kinda weird because I
feel like I'm not that old
Danny (52:54):
yet.
Jessica (52:58):
I've always, I mean, I helped with the youth and I got
to see the youth grow, but itseems like when when the youth
grows, they leave. So they'vegot to figure out a way to keep
their babies in that church isreally what I see. And I just I
don't want to see. I don't likeseeing the churches fall apart,
(53:26):
and it kinda feels like anymore.It's a hard way to keep them
together, all the everybodybecause everybody has their own
opinions.
And it takes a really a strong,person to try to keep all those
opinions together. And, I mean,who who is it gonna be? I don't
(53:51):
know. I've always I tell myhusband all the time, that
church was my family. Mhmm.
I fought for that church. I wentthrough my divorce with that
church. I went through my newmarriage with that church. I my
son was 2 when we started goingto that church, and now he's 17.
(54:16):
So it's just
Danny (54:20):
A lot of the people we love are gone now.
Jessica (54:22):
Yeah. And, like, my my pastor will always be my pastor.
And then that was pastor Tim,and he's not there anymore. So
and I hate to be like, well,that he made it home for me, but
he he kinda did. So it's beenreally hard here lately for me,
actually, with the change ofthings going on in that church
because I've always had that Icall it my childlike faith
(54:47):
because I still see religionthrough the eyes of how I did
when I was in Sunday school.
You know? I don't need toquestion my religion. I don't
need to know all these answersto these questions. I just
(55:09):
believe. Mhmm.
And that's always how I've been.I think Danny says that's one of
my what do you call it? That'smy every person has a A gift. A
gift. He says that's my gift isthat I just always believed.
I've just always believed. I'mnever not. And he'll start
(55:30):
asking me questions aboutdifferent things, and I'm like,
you gotta talk about Joan andthe whale or something. Okay?
I'm over here still rememberingall of my little, you know,
childlike.
That's why I love teachingSunday school to the kids
because that's that's where I'mat, and I don't wanna grow. I'm
sorry.
Danny (55:49):
I use her. I use her. I don't
Jessica (55:50):
want to learn any of these horrible thing. I want to
still be happy and sunshine,flowers, and kisses. Okay? And
that's I I don't
Danny (56:01):
And that's what's made her so useful to me. That's
Jessica (56:04):
yeah. I'm just faithful. Mhmm. I'm faithful,
and and that's all I need. Idon't need people to question or
give me answers to my questions.
You're not gonna give me theanswer. It's up there, and I'll
find it one day. So
T.J. (56:19):
So the 2 of you balance, you know, in terms of grappling
with theological questions tosimple faith and blending.
Jessica (56:32):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't simple one.
Danny (56:36):
Well, I tell other people I don't consider myself to be a
theologian. I don't. And that'swhy I asked her these questions.
I think that makes me a betterpastor in a way or a better
preacher is because I don'twanna say things that people
don't understand. And when andwhen she's talking about me
asking her these questions, Ijust wanna find out what the
average Christian knows.
T.J. (56:54):
Mhmm. Okay.
Jessica (56:55):
And then he can bounce it off of me because he's like,
oh, you don't know that? Well,we're gonna learn about that
today.
T.J. (57:01):
Okay. I get it. So the 2 of you really do complement each
other. So while you're doingyour sermon preparation or
Sunday school class devotion,whatever it may be, you share
with Jessica some elements tosee is there a different way to
articulate the same concept orphrase or thought or definition.
(57:24):
Yes.
That's wonderful. The 2 of you
Danny (57:27):
have so to speak.
T.J. (57:29):
Yeah. Yeah.
Danny (57:31):
Yeah. If I say something and she looks at me crooked, I'm
like, well, I can't use that inthis armor. You know?
Jessica (57:36):
Are you gonna have to explain?
Danny (57:38):
I gotta do it different. Yeah. So the biggest compliment
I can ever get is when peopletell me, I understand what
you're saying. I understand yourservice. I listen to you because
I understand.
You make sense to me. That tome, that is the not that I use
big words, not because I knowhow to speak Greek or Hebrew.
It's because I can express theword of God in a way that you
understand it.
Jessica (57:58):
Well, and then you all have to remember that he didn't
grow up in the church. ThenSometimes he'll say something to
me, and I'll spring up one ofthose, songs that we used to
know. You know?
Danny (58:10):
And I don't know the songs. Yeah. So I've stuck stuff
in my sermon about y'all heardthe old song, and I didn't know
it too.
Jessica (58:18):
And he's like, you do know that story. Yeah.
Danny (58:24):
Yeah. Yeah. I thought that on her one day. I said, do
you know about the guys climbingthe pole to see Jesus? And she's
I started singing a song, and Iwas like, oh, okay.
T.J. (58:35):
Okay. My next question is for the 2 of you. We'll start
with Danny. Danny, where do yougo to get rejuvenated, renewed,
filled with encouragement thathelps your faith.
Danny (58:59):
Well, I like working the maze walks. I like doing stuff
outside of your church andgetting enter get into some
interdenominational things. Youcan always learn. You don't, you
know, you don't have to changeyour whole value to learn from
somebody. But I know this mightstrike you as weird.
I think it does some people, butmy worship you know, when you're
a pastor and you plan for it allweek, church and worship is a
(59:21):
little different for you thanyou normal. You know? To me, I
gotta find a way of worshipoutside the church, and I love
music. I love music. You know?
And I get a lot of my worshipthrough music, and I got a
stereo I built in my car thatsounds like a concert. And I
could tell I'll tell anybody.You come over and just sit in
this car and let me play theright song, and you'll cry. So,
(59:41):
yeah, I'll get in there anddrive around. Some days I don't
have anything to do, and I getin my car and just drive around
listening to really loudChristian music.
Jessica (59:48):
Yeah. I cry too when I get in my car. Okay.
Danny (59:51):
Different reason. But I've always been in the car
audio stuff, and and music issuch a way to worship for me.
I'll just put the 2 together.Mhmm. And I I've worshiped in my
car a lot, man.
I read my scriptures every day.I still I love the, upper room.
I read that every day. Mhmm.I'll try to watch, you know,
(01:00:11):
Christian programming when Ican.
But, yeah, I think I gotta get alot of my worship from music.
T.J. (01:00:15):
Okay. Jessica, how about you?
Jessica (01:00:19):
Me?
Danny (01:00:20):
Yeah.
Jessica (01:00:26):
Honestly, and it might be weird, probably is. I I seem
to be a very outspoken personand talk to everybody and super
bubbly and happy, and and I am.I wasn't always that way, which
I think is why where I get myrejuvenating from is when I'm by
(01:00:46):
myself at the house, nobody'shere. Like, seriously. I'll I'm
like, oh, honey.
You wanted to go to BowlingGreen and spend 2 days there
with Lyle and work in theoffice? Go right ahead. I'm not
even far. And then yes. So I getmy
Danny (01:01:06):
So you don't get as much loan time
Jessica (01:01:08):
as I am? By myself and
T.J. (01:01:10):
Got it.
Jessica (01:01:11):
Quiet.
T.J. (01:01:14):
Well, Danny Danny, Jessica, thank you for giving me
a big hunk of your day for us totalk.
Danny (01:01:22):
I appreciate the opportunity to share with you.
T.J. (01:01:26):
Thank you for listening to this faith journey with Danny
Willis. Share Cumberland Roadwith your family and friends so
they too can hear about god'spresence in people's lives. In
closing, here are some words ofHenry Nowen from his book in the
name of Jesus. The task offuture Christian leaders is not
(01:01:52):
to make a little contribution tothe solution of the pains and
tribulations of their time, butto identify and announce the
ways in which Jesus is leadinggod's people out of slavery
through the desert to a new landof freedom. Christian leaders
(01:02:12):
have the arduous task ofresponding to personal
struggles, family conflicts,national calamities, and the
international tensions with anarticulate faith in god's real
presence. Thanks for listening.
You are listening to the Cumberland Road, and I'm your
host, TJ Malinowski. Thefollowing is a faith
conversation with Reverend DannyWillis, a Cumberland
Presbyterian minister inOwensboro, Kentucky. Danny has a
(00:26):
provocative journey, A journeyof overcoming addiction, broken
relationship, and multiplehealth issues that almost caused
his death. Instead of losingfaith, Danny found a deep and
profound faith in Jesus Christthat has led him into ministry.
(00:51):
I met with Danny in atransitional period in his life
as he just finished a pastorateand is discovering what is next
in his journey. His wife,Jessica, joined in on our
conversation. Married for 9years, their journeys intertwine
(01:11):
in a beautiful way. Here is thefaith journey of Danny Willis.
Danny, we met a few years agoand I got bits and pieces of
your faith journey, and it'sit's a treat to be able to kind
(01:31):
of swing back around and, getthe whole story and your whole
journey. But I remember youtelling me vaguely that you had,
a medical scare, and and I don'tremember what it was. But we can
start there in our conversationor start in another place if you
wanted to lead up to that.
Danny (01:51):
No. That'd be fine. We could start there. Try to make
it as short as possible.
T.J. (01:57):
Take your time. You you've got my you've got my attention.
Danny (02:00):
So My whole life, I weighed about £330. And then
about the last 4 or 5 years,I've blown up to £580 is when
what I laid when I went into thehospital.
T.J. (02:11):
And and for those who are listening, just for perspective,
you're you're probably a quarterof that now.
Danny (02:18):
Yeah. I'm 6 foot 4, and I'm £200. Okay.
T.J. (02:21):
Alright.
Danny (02:22):
But, yeah, I was £580, and, I was an alcoholic as well.
And my whole life, you know, I'mjust I I stayed away from God a
lot. So there's a lot of thingsI've done in my life I shouldn't
have done, but I was, diagnosedwith it being fatty liver
because of my my weight, butalcoholism also. You know? But,
T.J. (02:45):
How early did you get into, alcohol?
Danny (02:49):
Oh.
Jessica (02:50):
Early twenties.
Danny (02:51):
Yeah. But I started a lot a lot more probably in my about
20 years old. From 18 on, I wasdrinking. Mhmm. But most of the
time was I was I drank too muchbeer, but that's why I got so
big.
But, I was diagnosed with NASH,nonalcoholic liver cirrhosis,
and I bounced around a fewhospitals here. And I just
(03:12):
couldn't be put on thetransplant list because of my
weight. And then I wound up, at,Mayo Clinic in Rochester,
Minnesota at the end, and theytold me if I would sign for to
get a, lap band or not lap band.Sleep. Stomach sleeve surgery
that they would put me on thetransplant list.
T.J. (03:31):
Mhmm.
Danny (03:32):
So I I think I lived there to total of maybe 4 months
in a transplant center. It waswhere they had a lot of people
there. There were hospice andmajor illnesses. We just all
lived in a house together there,but I don't really remember the
last time when I went in. But,when I went in for the long haul
there at the end, I was justlosing my mind all all along the
(03:53):
way.
But by the time I went in forthe long haul, I was in the
hospital for a year. Mhmm. I wasin and out of coma, and it was
rough. But the thing is is once,they called my family and said
they were gonna unplug me in the2 hours away. So I I was past
the point of being able to get atransplant.
T.J. (04:14):
Well, let me interrupt you let me interrupt you for a
minute. Let's go back a littlebit. So you you're in a, you're
you're in a home and you're on awaiting list. And so
Danny (04:26):
do you need to be waiting list for transplant.
T.J. (04:28):
You need to be in that house on a waiting list for a
quick turnover. Is that correct?
Danny (04:34):
You had to be close to the hospital. Yeah.
T.J. (04:35):
Okay. Could you hold a job at that time? Or you I mean, are
you literally chained to well,maybe metaphoric?
Danny (04:42):
Chained to the hospital. Okay. But I was beyond being
able to work. When I finallywhen I realized there was
something wrong with me, I wasat work taking something off of
shelf and just fell face firstinto the shelf. And then
everybody around me could tell Iwasn't feeling good anymore, so
they told me I couldn't comeback until I figured out what
was wrong and overcame back.
I was diagnosed, with stage 4liver cirrhosis.
Jessica (05:06):
How old were you?
Danny (05:07):
I was 30 7 years old. They told me I had 6 months to
live. Fast forward again back towhere I went into the hospital
for a long time. I was there fora year.
T.J. (05:18):
So And what How come you were in the hospital for 12
months?
Danny (05:24):
Because about everything that happened, I was there, you
know, like, in a coma state fora while just waiting for the
transplant.
Jessica (05:30):
It's waiting. You have to have a certain, donor to be
able to get the liver, and so hehad to wait for somebody who had
had I mean, he was £500 and 6foot 4. So It
Danny (05:46):
had to be somewhere.
Jessica (05:48):
Somebody that had that, you know, a liver that would be
able to suffice with the bodyhabitus that he had. So And
blood type. And blood type. Sothey had to weigh. And on top of
that, he was told he had to loseso much weight before his
surgeries as well.
So while he's already feelinghorrible with his liver problem,
(06:08):
he's also having to eat applesall day long.
Danny (06:13):
I drank water water.
Jessica (06:14):
Trying to get down to a certain weight.
Danny (06:17):
Yeah.
Jessica (06:17):
And he, actually, he didn't really make it because
like he said, after when he wasto that point
Danny (06:24):
Mhmm.
Jessica (06:25):
He had 2 hours, and they were telling his wife at
the time that they needed tocome in. He was blessed with a
liver.
Danny (06:35):
Yeah. They called 30 minutes after they called him
and said we're gonna unplug himin 2 hours. They found the liver
that matched me. And,fortunately, there was no one
else on the list nowhere thatthat was right candidate. So
they've said, we're gonna try.
T.J. (06:50):
So while you're waiting, your health is declining, which
led led you going from living ina home kind of in a waiting
period to where you actuallyneeded medical care around the
clock?
Danny (07:04):
Yeah. Basically, in hospice.
T.J. (07:06):
Okay. And how old are you at this time?
Danny (07:09):
37.
T.J. (07:10):
So so you're a young man.
Danny (07:12):
Yeah. And I turned 38 in the hospital. So but, yeah, they
they when they did get thatlever in and they said they'd go
ahead and give me a shot, theydone it. And wasn't nothing
turning around for me. 3 or 4days later, they didn't
understand what was going on.
So they done test or whatever,and they found out that I had,
mucormycosis, which is basicallyfun fungus growing in your body.
(07:38):
I guess that I got that closeto, you know, being gone. And
they didn't even wanna operateon me because if you get mic my
you from my closest period,you've got, like, 30% chance to
live. And then that what if itspreads throughout your body,
nobody had ever lived from it.And it was in multiple parts of
my body, but they finally talkedto me and said he'd been through
(07:59):
so much, and he's got the thenthe liver was a great match.
Mhmm. And, they they said he'sdone through so much. Give it a
shot. You know? Mhmm.
So they did it, and, like, Iwound up losing half of my or 3
quarters of my right kidney,half of my right lung, a big
portion of the top of my rightshoulder, a big chunk out of
(08:19):
the, top of my left thigh. Isthat all of it?
Jessica (08:24):
I think so.
Danny (08:24):
Yeah. And this is right after liver transplant and
stomach sleeve surgery.
Jessica (08:28):
So went back and had to open them up like an autopsy.
Danny (08:32):
And take all
Jessica (08:33):
stuff out. And I'm the
Danny (08:35):
person that has ever lived from it.
T.J. (08:37):
Yeah. You're a walking miracle.
Danny (08:39):
Yeah. I guess. Yeah. I got 1 minute chance, man. That's
why I'm here today.
Amen.
T.J. (08:45):
Where's your head space? I mean, you have a lot of time to
reflect and to think as you'refeeling sick, as your health is
declining. I imagine that youcould go into some pretty dark
places. But what what was yourexperience? Yeah.
Go ahead.
Danny (09:04):
I mean yeah. I mean, I I did have, like, hallucinations
and dreams or whatever. Theywere so vivid that sometimes I
gotta try to realize were theyfake or were they real. You
know? But Mhmm.
Before, I was great. I mean, Ifelt great. I was always in a
good mood. I was con con now 21years old, but he's the only one
(09:33):
who believed it because of thecircumstances. But, yeah, yeah,
he gave me a miracle.
T.J. (09:40):
Well, let's talk about your faith, Danny. As a child,
what were what was an earlyexperience with God? Did you
grow up in the church? Did youhave did you have an encounter
outside of kind of thetraditional parameters of of
faith?
Danny (09:59):
I didn't grow up in what you would consider a Christian
home. We didn't go to church,and we didn't read the Bible,
pray openly, or anything likethat. But I spent I had a
brother that had down syndrome Imentioned to you earlier. Mhmm.
And, he took a lot of myparents' time.
So I spent a lot of the weekendsand and summers and just
whenever I could. I was with mygreat grandparents, and they
(10:22):
would take me to the MethodistChurch in I like Kentucky. And I
was baptized there probably 8, 9years old. I don't even
remember, but by the time I got16 years old and got a job and
started driving, I didn't go andspend as much time with mama and
papa as what what I used to, andI just went away from the church
altogether, basically. And Iguess nobody ever really told me
(10:47):
they were proud of me in mylife.
And as soon as I got out ofschool, I got a good job at a
local plant. And within 4 years,I was a supervisor of the plant.
You know, I patted myself on myown back, and I'm like,
nothing's gonna hold me down. Ican do everything I wanna do on
my own. I don't need nobody, andthat included God in my mind.
You know? So that's the way Ilived my life for a lot of
(11:08):
years. That's what led to thealcoholism and the drug use and
all of that was just I'm tryingto fill a hole in my life where
God should have been. You know?It's temporary joy you can find
at the end of a bottle, butit'll kill you, and you're not
gonna find true joy.
They're not lasting joy. Youknow?
T.J. (11:26):
And this is in this is in retrospect. So during that time
though, were you able toarticulate, hey, this is why I'm
drinking, this is why I'mexperimenting with drugs?
Danny (11:38):
Oh, never. I was just living my life and having fun.
Yeah. No. I never thought ofthat.
You know?
T.J. (11:45):
You were doing what you were doing what Danny wanted to
do? You had cash out of pocketand a good career and
Danny (11:52):
what you jobs. You know? Mhmm. And then, you know, I lost
one of my good jobs because Iwas too good to the people
there. You know?
I tried to resolve issuesinstead of firing people, and it
got me in trouble more than onceuntil the point I lost a job
over there. I they even told me,you you we didn't hire you to be
a minister. We hired you to be aOh, wow. So,
T.J. (12:12):
let let's go a little deeper in this. You really
weren't faith connected, and yethere you have employers saying
we didn't hire you to be aminister.
Danny (12:22):
I've always had a helpful heart. Like, I think that God
put something in me, but Ididn't know where it came from.
You know? Mhmm. They would Iwould counsel people.
Yeah. I would never pray withpeople and such, but I always
wanted to try to help peoplewith their problems. You know? I
always had that mindset, And Ifind a lot of it because some of
the stuff I had been through,and I was like, I don't wanna
(12:43):
wind up there. You know?
Mhmm. I had a very rough firstmarriage. You know? She we were
both alcoholics and such and didall this stuff, and she was more
with the other drug, and shejust wouldn't give it up. After
I got out of the hospital, Ifound out she would she'd done
found boyfriends while I was inthe hospital sick.
She thought I was gonnaconvinced I was gonna die, I
guess. But and then I came homewhen I tried to, you know,
(13:07):
prepare things, but shecontinued with that type of
behavior until the point shejust told me to go home. She
found another guy. So that was aa long, rough marriage. So
T.J. (13:19):
Yeah. Drugs, alcohol, and maintaining relationships.
That's a real hard thing to dofor anybody.
Danny (13:24):
And I was gone for work most of the time. The jobs I had
were good jobs, but I literallyworked 80, 90 hours a week
sometimes.
T.J. (13:33):
You were pushing that body pretty hard, Danny.
Danny (13:36):
Oh, I was. I tell people I I went from February 12th, my
birthday, until, Christmas oneyear without a day off. So,
yeah, work was my god kindathen, I guess.
T.J. (13:51):
In your journey, where did you find yourself reconnecting
with your faith? So you were yougo to your great grandparents
and you attended worship, butwhen when were you reconnected
with your faith? When did Godreenter the
Danny (14:10):
picture? My son, which is another hole, he got he got some
kind of disease. He never reallygot diagnosed properly, but he
was in and out of a children'shospital for 3 years straight.
Mhmm. We thought we was gonnaput him in everything.
T.J. (14:23):
Is this after your
Danny (14:25):
Yeah. I got
T.J. (14:26):
sick. Before? Okay.
Danny (14:27):
Right before. Yeah. But, Yeah. We didn't know if he's
gonna make it one night. Theycame in and told me.
He said, we don't even know ifhe's gonna make it through the
night, and it was just me andhim here there that night. And I
just kinda sit slept in thechair and was there with him
when he woke up the nextmorning. And he woke up. He sat
up in the bed. Like, he feltbetter, a lot better that
(14:48):
morning.
And he looked at me and said,dad, when I get better, I wanna
go to church. I want you to takeme because you need to go too. I
mean, in that situation, and hesaid that it it went into my
heart. You know? I was like, oh,okay.
Alright. And then I, got back towork after he got a little
(15:09):
better. It was probably a coupleof weeks later. Eddie Miller,
which is a member of theOwensboro Cumberland
Presbyterian Church, asked me ifI would come to a chicken
dinner. I was having barbecuechicken at their church, I
guess, on Wednesday night orsomething.
T.J. (15:21):
Yeah. That's a hard thing to pass up.
Danny (15:23):
Alright. Yeah. That's £500. You offered me some
chicken. I'm coming, but but myson had just said that to me,
and I was like, you know what?
My son said he wanted to go tochurch. I'll be there. And I've
never left. I've I've I'vestarted at that church, and I
wasn't a Christian really yet.I've seen it in other people,
and I used to sit there in thepew and just pray to God and
(15:45):
beg.
They're like, I wanna have whatthey got. Mhmm. I wanna believe.
I see the faith that they have.I see the joy they find from it,
but I I don't have that.
It's like I need to see it orsomething. You know? And I
prayed that, you know, the wholetime I would go there, and
there'd be nights I'd be up allnight drinking still. And I get
up early on Sunday and go. I hada guy pull me to the side once.
Dumbass smelling like alcohol,but I was trying still. You
(16:08):
know? And somebody sent me on anEmmaus walk during that time.
Mhmm. I don't know if you knowwhat that is or anybody
listening to mine, but I thinkthat's a Just
T.J. (16:16):
brief for those who don't know, briefly describe the
Emmaus walk.
Jessica (16:21):
Can't.
Danny (16:21):
Yeah. You can't really say a whole lot about it. It's a
4 day thing you go to, and, yougo there just to experience God.
Mhmm. You would be you'd be withour 30 other women or 30 other
men when you go, and it's just aa walk through the life of
Christ.
Kinda like the the walk toEmmaus. They were there with
Jesus the whole time and didn'trealize it, and I think that's
what Emmaus walk is. You'll bethere the whole time with Jesus.
(16:43):
And, generally, you'll realizeit by the time that the 4 days
is up.
T.J. (16:47):
Tell me more about how that transformed, how that
changed you. That part you cantell me about.
Danny (16:54):
The big part I took away from it was my changed my
priorities in life. Mhmm. Theway that I was working, and I
wanted to spend more time tryingto be a dad to my kids. And that
was the big thing for me. And Iknew I needed to slow down with
the drinking, and I did.
I told people at the Emmaus Walkthe first time the first 4 days
I went in a row without drinkingin 30 years was at my Emmaus
Walk.
T.J. (17:14):
Wow. Yeah. That's an accomplishment.
Danny (17:18):
Yeah. And, you know, I think really when it came down
to me stopping is when I juststarted feeling bad from it. And
I started slowing down, and thenit was probably 6 months after I
slowing down is when I wasdiagnosed. And I worked with a
guy named Scott Brown at thecounter at this electrical place
that I worked at, and he had hada brain tumor pretty recently to
(17:40):
that, probably a year before.And he he come in all the time
happy, and he'd do his job andhe was happy.
And one day, I just finallylooked at him. I said, what is
in your mind that you're goingthrough what you're going
through? And and you seem likeit ain't bothering me. He's
like, Jesus has my back,brother. He said, I'm in no
matter what with this.
I either go see God, or I couldstay back here a little longer
(18:02):
if whenever he makes a choiceof. He was a true Christian man.
Still is. But, yeah, things likethat, he was a big help as well.
You know?
But, yeah, whenever I got sick,I looked to God, and I was like,
look. I've been trying thisthing out. Here's the shot. You
know? I need your help.
And after that, you know, withall that in my mind that I had
(18:22):
that only 2 months left to live,I'd I'd pray myself to sleep
some nights. Kept my Bible postand started reading it and
really trying to find it andthen you know? So it was really
my illness going through all ofthat that really locked it in
for me.
Jessica (18:36):
Well, the top line kind of helped as well. It's really
weird how it all came togetherbecause when Cage was sick, then
you got invited to church, thenyou did the Emmaus walk. This is
when his heart health starteddeteriorating. He had
deteriorating really worse andworse until he that's when he
(18:56):
and then he found out he had aproblem. And at that point, he
was going to the OwensboroCumberland Presbyterian Church.
And if it wasn't for some of thefinancial aid that that church
was able to offer him and hisfamily at that time, he wouldn't
have been able to get to MayoClinic. You know? He wouldn't
his family wouldn't have beenable to eat. He was having, you
(19:19):
know, like, his floors and histrailer house are falling apart.
Danny (19:23):
Yeah. We had a water heater. What has
Jessica (19:25):
to was at that point. And to see that that with that
timeline, how all of that rightbefore he went to Mayo Clinic
with God finally, you know,showing himself at those times
is what was able to, I think, toget Danny through, being at the
hospital and being through allthat. Because finally, he saw
(19:46):
it. He saw what he was. Wasthere for him.
Danny (19:51):
The first thing I ever run into my life, I couldn't fix
by myself.
T.J. (19:55):
That's pretty scary, isn't it?
Danny (19:57):
Yeah. I was like, I need you now. I said, if you can get
me the other side of this, I'lluse the whole rest of my life
doing whatever you lead me to. Iwon't say no to nothing. And I'm
sitting here today.
T.J. (20:10):
So, really, as you're kind of putting your life back
together and examining yourpriorities and asking questions,
you know, how does God kind ofwork in the world and in my life
and in my family's life is whenyour health starts
deteriorating. Yeah. That's aprime opportunity for a
(20:32):
relationship with God to reallybe strengthened or fall apart.
It's kind of a fragile, fragile
Danny (20:41):
time. It was. Yeah. I think that was my chance. It's
like, either you got you knowwhat I mean?
I had that, the Paul got struckby a lightning moment. You know?
T.J. (20:50):
Alright. So, after you go through multiple health scares
for your son, and then of coursefor yourself, and you're on this
side of it. You're regainingyour strength and clearing up
your head. How does that leadinto kind of where you are
(21:13):
today? Where does your callingin ministry, how does all that
play in your in your journey?
Danny (21:21):
Well, you know, they told me I might be brain damaged. So
it took me a long time to get myhead straight, and I think
that's all my ex at the time waswaiting for is once she's saying
that was alright to get kickedout. She kicked me out. So I
actually lived in a guy's carfor a little while, here at
Owensboro because I was payingall of their bills. And while I
(21:42):
was in Minnesota, I had met onetime, I went up there just for
some health stuff afterwards.
And I got up Sunday morning andjust googled nearest church, the
Mayo Clinic, and found 1 and gota cab and went and met these
people. Well, while I was livingin the car, I was texting them,
and they was like, you just needto get away for a while. You
should come up here, and you canstay with us, and you can be
(22:03):
close to Mayo and help get justyour health straight.
T.J. (22:06):
And and folk folks from the church that you found are
the
Danny (22:10):
In Minnesota. Okay. So I moved up there and stayed in
their basement until I gotfinancially well enough to get
me an apartment up there. And Iwas going back and forth to Mayo
into the gym, getting myselfback to where I needed to be.
And that's not that Jessica.
Jessica (22:25):
I was gonna well, he met me. Yeah.
Danny (22:27):
This is where
Jessica (22:28):
This is the weird part because we both went to the
church Owensboro Church, andthat had been my church for a
long time. And when he wastrying to get himself healthy
again Mhmm. He he came into thechurch
Danny (22:46):
Yeah.
Jessica (22:47):
Super skinny, couldn't barely keep his pants on.
Absolutely. Belt that was sotight, like, his pants were
looped about a foot away fromhis waist. And I just remember
sitting there because I was inthere I always have my donuts
and coffee in the morning witheverybody. And he came in and
(23:07):
pastor shook his hand and so Ioffered him a seat.
This is before, you know,anything, and I just offered him
a seat. And I was married at thetime to my first husband, and I
was actually pregnant with mydaughter and sat him down and
was just chatting with him, youknow, and enjoying his company.
(23:27):
And I was like, well, hey. Like,nobody else said anything to
him. It was just me.
And I was like, you should cometo my Sunday school. You know?
So it was just a very randommoment there that we both
remember, and then I didn't seehim again for gosh. How long was
it?
Danny (23:45):
Probably probably.
Jessica (23:46):
It was probably a year. Yeah. And he had messaged me
when he was up in Mayo because,like, right after he talked to
me at the church, he went toMayo or, I mean, to Minnesota.
And, so we hadn't talked. Andthen, like, a year later, I get
a message on Facebook.
How are you doing? I'm healthyand up in Minnesota. What's
(24:09):
going on? I'm like
Danny (24:11):
And just to make the story clear there, her husband
did the same thing to her thatmy wife did to me.
Jessica (24:16):
Yeah. He left me.
Danny (24:18):
Yeah. And, she when we started talking, Adeline was 4
months old.
Jessica (24:24):
She was
Danny (24:25):
Adeline is my daughter.
Jessica (24:29):
6 or 7 months old. She just started crawling.
Danny (24:32):
Yeah.
Jessica (24:32):
Yeah. So so we were both divorced.
Danny (24:36):
Yeah. And And I was in Minnesota when she was in
Kentucky.
Jessica (24:39):
So make that clear, y'all. We were Yeah.
T.J. (24:43):
Well, Danny, you're in Minnesota. What led you to send
Jessica a Facebook message?
Jessica (24:53):
That was
Danny (24:54):
doctor Doctor Newton. Yeah. Doctor
Jessica (24:57):
Newton was a savior for me during during my divorce. Him
and his wife, Vicky, kinda tookme under their wing and would
help with my kids Mhmm. Wheneverthey needed to. So I spent a lot
of time talking to them andchatting. Well, I guess there
was a picture he just liked ofme, so he posted it on Facebook
on his Facebook.
Yeah. And that's when Danny sawit and
Danny (25:21):
I mean Oh, okay. I was like, how you doing?
Jessica (25:26):
Yeah. But,
Danny (25:27):
yeah, we talked on the phone for 4 months or so. Mhmm.
And then, I flew back toOwensboro for a a week, and we,
went out and everything for thatweek. And I went back to
Minnesota and, yeah, it took mea couple months to gather my you
know, close-up all my loose endsthere because I was working at a
church there as a outreachminister. So
T.J. (25:46):
Oh, okay. Alright. So, let's go back a little bit. You
moved to Minnesota. You'reliving in a car.
And I wanted to ask
Danny (25:53):
I lived in a car before I went to Minnesota.
T.J. (25:56):
And living in the car before, but you can't live in a
car. And then the church thatyou found, they allowed you to
live in their basementtemporarily
Danny (26:05):
until you found it before. A guy, a a man and
woman.
T.J. (26:08):
Oh, okay. You lived in not the church basement,
Danny (26:10):
but the Their house stayed at the house, and then I
got me an apartment. But thechurch offered me a job cleaning
the church. Mhmm. And I wasdoing that, but I one day, the
pastor there, he's like, I gottago do a couple visitations at
the hospital. Won't you won'twon't you come with me?
And by the time he got back,he's like, I'm making you an
outreach ministry. It's like,I've never seen anybody be so
(26:32):
outgoing and just walk up toanybody and start talking to him
in my life. So he made me anoutreach minister. So and I was
like, well, I wanted to getordained. You know?
Mhmm. That was a anondenominational church. Mhmm.
And, he told me he he put meunder my wing, and they would
ordain me there. You know?
So I thought I found my calling.You know? Mhmm. But But when me
(26:54):
and her did start talking, I dida lot of praying. You know?
Like, what do you want me to do?And then when I was on the
visit, though, me and herattended the Owensboro
Cumberland Presbyterian Church,and Terry Moss is the was
teaching the Sunday school, andhe told me so I wish I had
somebody to help me teach theSunday school class. And I
thought about that the wholetime I'm back in Minnesota, you
(27:15):
know, those 2 months I spentbefore I moved back. And when I
moved back, I was like, let mehelp you do it. And that's kinda
where I got my whole starttoward the direction I'm at now.
You know? I started teaching theSunday school class, and it grew
and grew to the point we werehaving bringing extra chairs and
about to have to get a differentroom before I actually left and
started pastoring to our orfilling pulpits. Alright. That's
(27:36):
the other
Jessica (27:36):
crazy part, though, is in between all that is when you
came back to the church, andthey all saw that I was dating
him.
Danny (27:45):
Oh, yeah. My own pastor pulled me to the side and
threatened him. If you heardthat girl, she's like my
daughter now.
Jessica (27:53):
I was kinda his loophole into the church, to be
honest because
Danny (27:58):
All everybody knew me from was my past. Yeah.
Jessica (28:01):
From his past. I'm like, what is she doing? With
Danny (28:03):
him. Yeah. It was
T.J. (28:08):
So, Jessica, as you guys are growing closer together,
Danny (28:12):
what
T.J. (28:13):
do you guys text and talk about? How did that relationship
kinda get nurtured and and grow?
Jessica (28:20):
Gosh. That's been, like, 10 years ago. Yeah.
Danny (28:22):
But I think it was because we were completely
honest with one another. Mhmm.Because we wasn't face to face.
Jessica (28:27):
Gone through, divorces, and we were somebody we both
could talk to. He was verybroken.
Danny (28:36):
Yeah.
Jessica (28:37):
Medically broken.
Danny (28:39):
Yeah. I'm annoyed at that point in time.
Jessica (28:41):
Yeah. And, I I guess I found him a little intriguing in
that way too with me being inthe medical profession. I always
tell everybody he's my, like,medical experiment.
Danny (28:53):
I don't live with her. Honestly, I'll tell you that the
first conversation that we everhad where we actually talked on
the phone, and I told her Isaid, they said that there's a
chance that I might have to havea, a kidney transplant. At the
time, they thought I would. And,she's like, I'll give you one.
Can I give you one?
And she meant it. She literallymeant it, and I'm like, this I'm
(29:15):
gonna marry this girl to be thatkind. You know? Right. Hey.
We might need to stop for asecond. I need my battery's low.
I'm a have to plug in, buddy.
T.J. (29:25):
Okay. Alright. Do you need to when you say
Danny (29:30):
need to go get a cable and plug this in.
T.J. (29:32):
Alright. Absolutely. Go ahead.
Danny (29:34):
I'll stay here. Pop
Jessica (29:36):
it if
Danny (29:37):
we had to. Yeah. Yeah. But we got the the them screens
going dimmer. Okay.
Jessica (29:44):
Yeah. Sorry. We're really back and forth on all of
our stories. He's got such a bigone. It's hard to keep the
timeline in play.
T.J. (29:52):
Well, yeah. But it's kind of fun because I I can I can
ask, well, for my own benefit sothat I can follow, But it slows
Danny down a little bit too, sothat he can so yeah? Because I I
want to live in that moment andbe empathetic to it and to to
(30:12):
best understand Danny and you.And he Danny Danny, you're ready
to jump to the next chapter.It's like, okay, that chapter is
open.
Danny (30:20):
Now I wanna
T.J. (30:21):
go to this other chapter.
Danny (30:23):
Yeah. I'm sorry. In a good way.
T.J. (30:25):
In a good way. No. No.
Jessica (30:26):
He was trying to make this kinda quick for you because
and it there's no quickness tothis. He just
Danny (30:30):
That's all I was trying to do is make it minute. Give
you this you know, I've toldthis so many times. At one
point, I said it so much thatshe's even like, you know,
you're more than just that. Andshe was right.
Jessica (30:42):
He used to talk about his story for, like, the first 2
or 3 years we were together. Andyou know how it's how hard it is
for somebody to be like, youdon't have to keep living
through that all the time. Yeah.You're gonna have a future, and
you need to start living in thenow rather than what happened to
you way back when because that'sliterally all he would talk
(31:04):
about forever. And, you know,I'm living with him.
We're married. I hear this storyall the time, and I'm like, you
have got to get some newstories. I'm like but on top of
it, I was not there through hissickness.
T.J. (31:21):
Right.
Jessica (31:21):
You know? So I the I was an outsider at that point. I
was at the church praying forhim while he was in the hospital
because we the same church hehad just started going. I tell
him all the time that the firsttime I ever saw him was he was
in in front of the doors. I putI think he was putting on Cage's
coat or holding Cage's coat tocome his son Cage to come, to
(31:45):
leave, and he was, like, big oldboy.
You know? And he was big oldguy, with nothing but black on.
Everything was saggy and baggy.Yeah. I was I didn't really talk
to him a whole lot then.
Danny (32:00):
Yeah.
Jessica (32:03):
But that that's where that's what I remember him like.
And then I remember his kid,Cage, who I would literally turn
around and go into a differentroom because he was so loud and
boisterous, and he was too muchfor me. And I was like, oh my
gosh. Like, yeah, I love him todeath, and man, he got it. He
had Jesus in him.
T.J. (32:26):
So, Jessica, what what was your, reaction of that, well,
relatively brief time gap ofseeing Danny, as he was going
through health issues andalcoholism and all kinds of
stuff. And then fast forward towhen he shows up in Owensboro
(32:47):
Owensboro again, and here, he'swearing a belt that's 8 sizes
too large.
Jessica (32:55):
This this is the funny part. Okay? So I the whole time
I was sitting there, I was like,man, I wish I could just take
him and go shopping with him. Ilike to be able to buy him a
wardrobe. He deserves this.
You would've guessed down theroad I bought his whole life. He
(33:17):
literally came to me with a oneof those duffle bags. One duffle
bag. That's all he had. He hadnothing else.
Yep. Never took anything fromhis other life. He let them just
have it. He was always giving hedidn't care. He was, you know,
that that was fine.
And then that's where he came tome.
Danny (33:39):
And With a duffel bag and dreams and ministry. Yeah.
Jessica (33:45):
Which is where everybody was like, just what
are you doing?
Danny (33:48):
Yeah. What
Jessica (33:48):
are you doing? Like, I always told miss because I could
see more in him than what hisouter appearance was. And I I
always said I've I think I'vebeen a pretty good people reader
for most of my life, and, yeah,I could see the softness and the
soul he had, and a lot of peoplecouldn't see that.
Danny (34:10):
Mhmm. Yeah.
Jessica (34:11):
So, so while he me in the last how many years, I mean,
we've met
Danny (34:17):
No. No.
Jessica (34:18):
I mean, the church loves him. Everybody loves him.
So, you know It
Danny (34:22):
was a big change from who I used to be.
Jessica (34:25):
Little connection was kind it's definitely a god thing
too, and it happened at a reallygood time for both of us because
not only could I help him, hecould help me. I mean, I was
going through a lot too. I mean,this was a lot lot. But
Danny (34:39):
Yeah. With me not being at that point, I couldn't work.
I couldn't even carry a 12 packof bottled water. You know? So
she's like, you just help withAdeline, and, I gotta work all
the time.
So until you get better, that'sit. So I even that's when I
said, you know, I wanna go toseminary or whatever, but I'm
gonna wait until Adeline startsschool so she don't ever have to
go to day care. So I did
Jessica (34:59):
that. I got my very own house husband.
Danny (35:02):
Yeah. I was a house husband, and I got to take care
of that baby. That's why I said,hey, Adeline's just like my
baby. I'm a really choppy.Couldn't be any closer to a god
given child.
No. She is a god given child.Let me take that question.
T.J. (35:15):
Alright. So you're at the Owensboro church and, teaching a
Sunday school class, and youwere saying earlier that, it was
growing. Talk more about thetransition from being a Sunday
school teacher into pursuing thevocation of minister.
Jessica (35:35):
That's actually really hard. Yeah. I thought Because
pastor Tim, like, wasn't toosure about it.
Danny (35:42):
Yeah. And I get it now. I'm looking back. But yeah.
Jessica (35:45):
How he was. Look. He he gave me a face.
Danny (35:48):
And I came back quick.
Jessica (35:49):
Give a face.
Danny (35:51):
Because he
Jessica (35:51):
was just like, are you I don't I don't know why anyone
wants to do this. Like, he justwasn't real sure about it. But
after after he had been in that,Sunday school room for so long,
we kinda taught it kindatogether. Yeah. That was kinda
his side wing.
I read all of the stuff. Yeah.And and, I think after he saw
(36:14):
that that was growing and how wewere able to grow a lot of the
young couples there, That'swhen, you know, you went back. I
mean, I was like, I wanna be a Iwas asking as a pastor all the
time. You know?
And finally, I think he waslike, think you're ready.
Danny (36:28):
Yeah. I I was just like, maybe I could just be the
assistant pastor here. That'sall I wanted. Mhmm. You know?
I I've seen that maybe I didhave a gift for ministry. You
know? And, he said, well, yougotta go to school. And that
took me probably a year before Iwas like, alright. I'll go to
school.
You know? And I
Jessica (36:44):
wanna do that at all.
Danny (36:45):
I did not do that in school.
Jessica (36:47):
Y'all, he is so against college education. Yeah.
Danny (36:52):
I did not wanna go.
Jessica (36:53):
No joke. He was like, that just gives people a big
head.
Danny (36:57):
And
Jessica (36:58):
I'm like, really? So is that what you're telling me? I
am. My husband.
Danny (37:03):
And, you know, I went into the community policy here
and signed up for classes, and Iwas like, I don't know if this
is gonna work or not. You know,I got anxiety and ADHD and
everything, but I think that iswhat made it work for me. Yeah.
Because I was so afraid offailing that I poured everything
into it, and I made the dean'slist my very first semester at
47 years. I'm 46 years old.
Jessica (37:23):
There was another blessing that he didn't know he
even had. When he was in highschool, he had taken so many
classes for college. He wasalmost done.
Danny (37:32):
Yeah. Didn't even know it.
Jessica (37:33):
He didn't even know it. And so he just needed, like it
was a another year of
Danny (37:38):
or No. I think I had a year and a half, 2 years of of a
community college to get my to
Jessica (37:43):
get my associate. Bunch of credits that he didn't even
realize. And then by the end ofhis 2 years, he even made
another loophole because theythought he was gonna have to
take another class. Rememberthat? There was a
Danny (37:57):
I don't know.
Jessica (37:57):
They changed some they changed something in their, what
do you call it? Curriculum.Curriculum to where one of his
classes ended up counting. Oh,yeah. That's right.
Yeah.
Danny (38:08):
All of a
Jessica (38:09):
sudden, he was just done.
Danny (38:10):
I went to go take classes and get books and stuff, and
they're like, you're notenrolled. And I'm like, I
already enrolled. I got 2classes to take. And by the end
of that day, they was like, oh,you have 2 other credits. You're
done.
So that was great when I startedthe BOSS program immediately.
Yeah.
T.J. (38:25):
Well, before we get into the program of alternate
studies, Danny, has yourperspective on education
softened any?
Danny (38:32):
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. A lot of if anything, I
think you could go to collegeand take something you don't
even care about, and you'd learnyou'd be more organized and more
goal oriented. Mhmm.
I'm I've always been kind of a Iwanna get it done now, or I'm
not gonna do it. Mhmm. You know,even the big jobs I take on a
car, I walk out there, and I'mlike, I'll work all day until
(38:53):
I'm falling apart without eveneating to get something done
then. So, yeah, taking long termgoals, that was hard for me to
accept, but I I think it helpedopen that up in my mind now. You
know?
Jessica (39:04):
Yeah. Like, way more being supportive of when the
kids I mean, we got 2 olderboys, and one of them is about
to go and, graduate this year.And, he's getting ready to do
automotive. And Yeah.
Danny (39:17):
He's gonna go get a degree in automotive. Guys are
excited about it. Yeah. He is
Jessica (39:21):
just so stuffed that, you know, we'll have a kid in
college. So
T.J. (39:27):
Alright. Danny, you got a taste of ministry in Minnesota
and then back in Owensboro atthe Owensboro Cumberland
Presbyterian Church throughSunday school and your calling
and you revisited your calling,and then you revisited one more
year because you weren't realsure about going back to school.
(39:49):
Yeah. And then I interruptedyou. You were about to talk
about the program of alternatestudies.
Okay. Now you can run with theprogram of alternate studies.
Danny (39:58):
I'll let Michael Kalls, by the way. I'll shout out to
him. But he he was the, main guyover the past I think now he's
vice president of the wholeseminary or something. He he
stepped up somewhere. But He
T.J. (40:08):
he's a man of
Danny (40:09):
many talents.
T.J. (40:11):
He's a man of many talents, many jobs.
Danny (40:14):
Yeah. And, when I first started the POSS program, I was
like, how many quest how manyclasses can you take at a time?
And I was like, well, we hadsomebody take 9 once, but he
failed. I was like, but I cantake 9, and they were like,
yeah, if you'd wanna try. So Itook 9 classes at the time all
the way through.
I think I set a record gettingthrough fast. But Alright. And I
(40:35):
I was successful. I think I wasall a straight a's, but maybe 3
b's or something all the waythrough. So Mhmm.
I was able to take big chunksout of it because, again, I
don't like to wait for results,so I took it as quick as I
could.
T.J. (40:50):
So what's next, Danny, in terms of ministry and life?
Danny (40:55):
You caught me at a very vulnerable time, actually. Mhmm.
This past I I stayed at MountOlivet for the past be almost 5
years in October. Mhmm. Youknow, when I started to go fill
pulpits, I went to that church,and I fell in love with them.
And, you know, me beingdisabled, I can only make a very
small amount of money. So, youknow, I thought that part of my
(41:15):
calling is I can go helpchurches that that can't pay a
whole lot for a pastor. Mhmm.And I went to Mount Olive and
fell in love with them. And,again, I stayed there almost 5
years now, but Easter was mylast Sunday there.
We got to do a baptism andeverything. And we and we had a
the whole we did the whole holyweek celebration. It was hard to
leave. I I mean, I really dolove those guys with all of my
(41:36):
heart. You know?
I spent time with them and theirfamilies and grown to know all
of them. And it's hard to leave.It really is. I even I even had
second thoughts about it becauseit's hard to leave people, but
I, you know, I keep tellingmyself in the back of my head
that's that's gonna be part ofministry. You know?
And I know it's time. God wastelling me deep in my heart and
heart too that there's somethingelse for me, and I don't know
what it is. So, yeah, you caughtme at a vulnerable time with
(41:58):
that. I'm I'm fixing to jump inmy car and drive cross country
by myself. I need to get awaysometimes, but to do some prayer
and to camping and mostly somestuff.
T.J. (42:09):
Share more of what it's like to be in this stage of your
life and your stage of your yourfaith and your ministry because
you're in a season of change,and yet the near future is
unknown. Well, it's alwaysunknown. But in terms of your
vocation, your calling, and whatthat may look like, you it's
(42:29):
typically when when we're inministry or really any vocation,
when you step away from thevocation, you have something
else lined up.
Danny (42:38):
Yeah. I don't. But in
T.J. (42:39):
this case, you don't. So
Danny (42:41):
No. I'm waiting. I'm I'm trying to just find what God
wants for me. I'm actually Itell people all the time, one of
my pieces of advice is agoldfish will never find out in
the ocean unless he jumps outthe boat. Okay.
So that's what I've done. Youknow? I kinda take my own
advice. If I say it, if youpreach it, you gotta live it.
You know?
So Right. I I like I'm I've beenworking as a chaplain at the
hospital my wife works at. Mhmm.I do enjoy that. But, again, you
(43:05):
know, when God tells you, yougotta go, you gotta go.
And I don't know what it is yet.Man, I I don't wanna say the
wrong way, but I've beendisappointed that what you know,
churches are just getting emptynowadays. There's gotta be
another way. You know? And I I Iknow there's been a lot of
people trying to figure it out.
Like, what do we do now? And andthat's where I'm at. What do we
(43:26):
do now? Yeah. Again, you know,the church is in inside the 4
walls, and it it needs to go outand start being charged again.
Mhmm. And I think a lot of thatis churches that become
protective. We almost have to benowadays. You know? I think the
most rebellious thing you can doin life now is be a Christian.
So I think we've become inwardlyfocused because of that. We've
(43:49):
gone into protect mode, and wecan't minister like that. You
know?
T.J. (43:55):
Yeah. It's difficult to minister when you're in survival
mode, protection mode. Yeah. Andand we often are resistant to
change and and we can becomevery defensive. It's hard to
share the gospel when you'redistracted and when you're
defensive.
Danny (44:15):
Yes. And when we get too worried about the rules and
regulations, how much differentare we from the Pharisees? You
know what I mean? Jesus hung outwith sinners. So, yeah, I don't
know what the next step is forme.
I don't know what it looks like.
T.J. (44:32):
Well, besides, feeling vulnerable, what other emotions
would you attach to that list?
Danny (44:39):
Anxious? Well, I hate it. Yeah. I'm very anxious. You
know, I don't yep.
Not not being attached by thepaycheck, and that that maybe
that's something to do with it.You know? God wants me to do
something. Maybe another way ofreaching people. Like I said, I
still wanna probably wind uppastoring the church, but I
(45:00):
gotta make sure that whatever hewants me to do lines up with
that.
You know? Because I do enjoy it.It's very hard to walk away from
being a a pastor. I enjoy it. Ilove you know?
Like I've said before, I'vealways loved helping people.
It's just a continuation ofthat. I just like to help people
with the problems, you know,when God's the way the only way
(45:20):
to really fix a problem.
T.J. (45:22):
But even feeling vulnerable and anxious, there's
a stronger call to to to stepaway from what is familiar, what
you have known for the past 5years. Talk more about that.
Talk about what that that it is,that thing that is driving you
(45:45):
to step away from thecomfortable, If you can, maybe
we'll have to swing back aroundand revisit. Maybe there isn't
language.
Danny (45:55):
I beg like, what I you're not gonna go catch a deer if you
don't don't go deer hunting. Youknow what I mean? Mhmm. If you
just stay in one place, maybeyou're not gonna find what it
is, and I don't know what it is.You know?
And I probably go pull somepulpits and stuff like that.
Maybe that's what I wanted todo. I have no idea. You know?
(46:15):
For the longest time, I thoughtI knew what what my calling was,
and it's not.
So what is it? You know?
T.J. (46:22):
They must be freeing at the same time to be able to step
into the unknown.
Danny (46:28):
But you know what God did for me and my illness? Maybe
makes me a little more bravethan the average. You know? If
he had my back through that,then I ain't worried about
stopping away from the churchfor a little bit till I find
where he needs me to go next,you know.
T.J. (46:41):
Maybe you have literally faced death on more than one
occasion. So what what may befearful or anxious driven for
some, maybe it didn't registerwith you in the same way.
Jessica (46:56):
Yeah. It doesn't.
Danny (46:58):
My anxiety is
Jessica (46:59):
It doesn't. This is where that all goes on me.
Danny (47:06):
Yeah. Yeah. She's the one.
Jessica (47:07):
This is where we make great team because he doesn't
think about all that stuff. And,thankfully, we've been blessed
to have a structure in our life.Mhmm. I'm kind of the structure.
Yeah.
Danny (47:20):
Oh, definitely. She keeps trying to know that.
Jessica (47:22):
Allows him to still be able to do the things he gets to
do and which is great becausethat's where he needs to be. He
needs to be able to have thatwhat's what's the word again?
Danny (47:34):
Freedom.
Jessica (47:34):
I guess freedom. Yeah. Yeah. The freedom to try new
things, and he's not scared totry. So
T.J. (47:43):
Yeah. There there's something wrong in any of our
relationships if we are noturged to seek and discover, to
be creative, to dream, that canbe stifling for the the the
development of the relationship,relationship with God or spouse
(48:04):
or a loved one, a child, whoeverthat may be.
Danny (48:07):
Yeah. Yeah. She's been a big part of me. I mean, I've
never gotten here without her.She doesn't like, keeps me in
order.
I'm not good with structure.Like, I'm going on this trip in
next week maybe, and I've notmade any plans. I just I'll fly
by the shirt. So, I mean, she'sthe one that kinda, yeah, she
grounds me, and I love her.
T.J. (48:29):
Well, Danny, you have experienced and seen a lot of
things. What advice do you havefor somebody who may be facing,
a tremendous health scare thatis going to change the way that
they currently live, or maybe aloved one. What helped you walk
(48:50):
through those life and deathexperiences, and and what advice
do you have?
Danny (48:57):
Mine was just faith. Strong faith. I just knew he
wasn't gonna let me die. Youknow, I don't know if that was
part of my calling at the timethat if he was getting me
through that, I would do whatI'm doing now or whatever. But,
yeah, he I just had faith that Iwasn't gonna die.
Like I said, the only personthat didn't believe it was my
son or that did believe me. Itwas my son. So it was a bad
(49:17):
circumstance to be in, and hepulled me through it. So, I mean
but I believed he would. Mhmm.
Truly believed that he would,and he did. And I don't like to
give that advice. I kinda I I Istumbled on that just a bit
because I did believe there aresome things that people that
have faith and still, you know,succumb to what illness they
have.
T.J. (49:38):
Sure. Absolutely. But I was wondering what helped you
through.
Danny (49:42):
Yeah. It was faith and my kids. I knew the life they would
have if I didn't make it.
T.J. (49:48):
Let's talk about the Cumberland Presbyterian Church
that the 3 of us are a part
Danny (49:53):
of. Yes.
T.J. (49:54):
And, in this time of transition, what is your hope
for the church now and in thefuture? You alluded earlier
about, looking and and livingoutside of the walls of the
church, but put some meat tothat. What what could that look
like? What does that mean?
Danny (50:14):
More outreach. I think we definitely need to outreach
more. Mhmm. I mean, they look wegot a couple churches here in
town that are just growing andgrowing and growing. I met the
pastor recently at a an Emmauswalk, and I have tattoos.
But this man had full sleevetattoos. All of them are
religious and stuff. Didn't looklike he'd be a pastor at all,
(50:36):
but this is his church, youknow, and they got they're
they're connected to one of thedrug and alcohol places here.
Mhmm. And and that's the way Ifound my faith.
You know? That's who I was, andthen it would the only thing
strong enough strong enough theonly thing that ever made me
wanna change that was Jesus. AndI know in my heart, I would not
have changed if it wasn't fromJesus, and I think that's that's
(50:59):
what stands true with a wholelot of those people. So, I mean,
when you go on out and you'regetting people that are broken
and you fix their life and theycome to Jesus, well, you're
gonna have a hop in church. Theypraise Jesus in that church, and
they're busting out at theseams.
You know? I've seen the picturesof the men's breakfast, and it's
overflowing. And it's because ofoutreach. They're going out and
finding centers, and when theyfind Jesus, they're loyal to
(51:21):
where they found it. So, yeah,they're just looking for Jesus.
It doesn't matter what the rulesand regulations and you know
what I mean? And I thinksometimes, again, as we went
into defense mode that we forgetwho we was maybe at one time.
You know, I know there's peoplethat's been Christian your whole
life. She has. Mhmm.
You know, maybe they don't knowwhat it's like to not have
(51:42):
Christ, but when you haven't hadand you find him, man, you're on
fire. I love so that's my bestthing to see is when somebody
finds Jesus.
T.J. (51:51):
Mhmm. It it it can be contagious for sure.
Danny (51:54):
Oh my god. That's why I still go back and this one this
last Emmaus walk was my firsttime on the the minister team.
And there was a guy there that Iknew well, and he he balled
throughout the whole thing. Andme and him's had breakfast
since, and it's just amazing tosee somebody find Jesus and
change their whole life. Youknow?
That's all I wanna do. I mean,you can't do that in 4 walls. So
(52:16):
the church has to get we gottaget better at outreach or
something somehow, and I don'tknow what it looks like. You
know? I know everybody's lookingfor outreach that works, but you
gotta outreach to broken people.
T.J. (52:29):
Jessica, you've you've been a long time member at
Owensboro Church. What are yourhopes for the church now and in
the future?
Jessica (52:40):
Well, yeah, it's been my home for 15 years, and going
for longer than most of them,which is kinda weird because I
feel like I'm not that old
Danny (52:54):
yet.
Jessica (52:58):
I've always, I mean, I helped with the youth and I got
to see the youth grow, but itseems like when when the youth
grows, they leave. So they'vegot to figure out a way to keep
their babies in that church isreally what I see. And I just I
don't want to see. I don't likeseeing the churches fall apart,
(53:26):
and it kinda feels like anymore.It's a hard way to keep them
together, all the everybodybecause everybody has their own
opinions.
And it takes a really a strong,person to try to keep all those
opinions together. And, I mean,who who is it gonna be? I don't
(53:51):
know. I've always I tell myhusband all the time, that
church was my family. Mhmm.
I fought for that church. I wentthrough my divorce with that
church. I went through my newmarriage with that church. I my
son was 2 when we started goingto that church, and now he's 17.
(54:16):
So it's just
Danny (54:20):
A lot of the people we love are gone now.
Jessica (54:22):
Yeah. And, like, my my pastor will always be my pastor.
And then that was pastor Tim,and he's not there anymore. So
and I hate to be like, well,that he made it home for me, but
he he kinda did. So it's beenreally hard here lately for me,
actually, with the change ofthings going on in that church
because I've always had that Icall it my childlike faith
(54:47):
because I still see religionthrough the eyes of how I did
when I was in Sunday school.
You know? I don't need toquestion my religion. I don't
need to know all these answersto these questions. I just
(55:09):
believe. Mhmm.
And that's always how I've been.I think Danny says that's one of
my what do you call it? That'smy every person has a A gift. A
gift. He says that's my gift isthat I just always believed.
I've just always believed. I'mnever not. And he'll start
(55:30):
asking me questions aboutdifferent things, and I'm like,
you gotta talk about Joan andthe whale or something. Okay?
I'm over here still rememberingall of my little, you know,
childlike.
That's why I love teachingSunday school to the kids
because that's that's where I'mat, and I don't wanna grow. I'm
sorry.
Danny (55:49):
I use her. I use her. I don't
Jessica (55:50):
want to learn any of these horrible thing. I want to
still be happy and sunshine,flowers, and kisses. Okay? And
that's I I don't
Danny (56:01):
And that's what's made her so useful to me. That's
Jessica (56:04):
yeah. I'm just faithful. Mhmm. I'm faithful,
and and that's all I need. Idon't need people to question or
give me answers to my questions.
You're not gonna give me theanswer. It's up there, and I'll
find it one day. So
T.J. (56:19):
So the 2 of you balance, you know, in terms of grappling
with theological questions tosimple faith and blending.
Jessica (56:32):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't simple one.
Danny (56:36):
Well, I tell other people I don't consider myself to be a
theologian. I don't. And that'swhy I asked her these questions.
I think that makes me a betterpastor in a way or a better
preacher is because I don'twanna say things that people
don't understand. And when andwhen she's talking about me
asking her these questions, Ijust wanna find out what the
average Christian knows.
T.J. (56:54):
Mhmm. Okay.
Jessica (56:55):
And then he can bounce it off of me because he's like,
oh, you don't know that? Well,we're gonna learn about that
today.
T.J. (57:01):
Okay. I get it. So the 2 of you really do complement each
other. So while you're doingyour sermon preparation or
Sunday school class devotion,whatever it may be, you share
with Jessica some elements tosee is there a different way to
articulate the same concept orphrase or thought or definition.
(57:24):
Yes.
That's wonderful. The 2 of you
Danny (57:27):
have so to speak.
T.J. (57:29):
Yeah. Yeah.
Danny (57:31):
Yeah. If I say something and she looks at me crooked, I'm
like, well, I can't use that inthis armor. You know?
Jessica (57:36):
Are you gonna have to explain?
Danny (57:38):
I gotta do it different. Yeah. So the biggest compliment
I can ever get is when peopletell me, I understand what
you're saying. I understand yourservice. I listen to you because
I understand.
You make sense to me. That tome, that is the not that I use
big words, not because I knowhow to speak Greek or Hebrew.
It's because I can express theword of God in a way that you
understand it.
Jessica (57:58):
Well, and then you all have to remember that he didn't
grow up in the church. ThenSometimes he'll say something to
me, and I'll spring up one ofthose, songs that we used to
know. You know?
Danny (58:10):
And I don't know the songs. Yeah. So I've stuck stuff
in my sermon about y'all heardthe old song, and I didn't know
it too.
Jessica (58:18):
And he's like, you do know that story. Yeah.
Danny (58:24):
Yeah. Yeah. I thought that on her one day. I said, do
you know about the guys climbingthe pole to see Jesus? And she's
I started singing a song, and Iwas like, oh, okay.
T.J. (58:35):
Okay. My next question is for the 2 of you. We'll start
with Danny. Danny, where do yougo to get rejuvenated, renewed,
filled with encouragement thathelps your faith.
Danny (58:59):
Well, I like working the maze walks. I like doing stuff
outside of your church andgetting enter get into some
interdenominational things. Youcan always learn. You don't, you
know, you don't have to changeyour whole value to learn from
somebody. But I know this mightstrike you as weird.
I think it does some people, butmy worship you know, when you're
a pastor and you plan for it allweek, church and worship is a
(59:21):
little different for you thanyou normal. You know? To me, I
gotta find a way of worshipoutside the church, and I love
music. I love music. You know?
And I get a lot of my worshipthrough music, and I got a
stereo I built in my car thatsounds like a concert. And I
could tell I'll tell anybody.You come over and just sit in
this car and let me play theright song, and you'll cry. So,
(59:41):
yeah, I'll get in there anddrive around. Some days I don't
have anything to do, and I getin my car and just drive around
listening to really loudChristian music.
Jessica (59:48):
Yeah. I cry too when I get in my car. Okay.
Danny (59:51):
Different reason. But I've always been in the car
audio stuff, and and music issuch a way to worship for me.
I'll just put the 2 together.Mhmm. And I I've worshiped in my
car a lot, man.
I read my scriptures every day.I still I love the, upper room.
I read that every day. Mhmm.I'll try to watch, you know,
(01:00:11):
Christian programming when Ican.
But, yeah, I think I gotta get alot of my worship from music.
T.J. (01:00:15):
Okay. Jessica, how about you?
Jessica (01:00:19):
Me?
Danny (01:00:20):
Yeah.
Jessica (01:00:26):
Honestly, and it might be weird, probably is. I I seem
to be a very outspoken personand talk to everybody and super
bubbly and happy, and and I am.I wasn't always that way, which
I think is why where I get myrejuvenating from is when I'm by
(01:00:46):
myself at the house, nobody'shere. Like, seriously. I'll I'm
like, oh, honey.
You wanted to go to BowlingGreen and spend 2 days there
with Lyle and work in theoffice? Go right ahead. I'm not
even far. And then yes. So I getmy
Danny (01:01:06):
So you don't get as much loan time
Jessica (01:01:08):
as I am? By myself and
T.J. (01:01:10):
Got it.
Jessica (01:01:11):
Quiet.
T.J. (01:01:14):
Well, Danny Danny, Jessica, thank you for giving me
a big hunk of your day for us totalk.
Danny (01:01:22):
I appreciate the opportunity to share with you.
T.J. (01:01:26):
Thank you for listening to this faith journey with Danny
Willis. Share Cumberland Roadwith your family and friends so
they too can hear about god'spresence in people's lives. In
closing, here are some words ofHenry Nowen from his book in the
name of Jesus. The task offuture Christian leaders is not
(01:01:52):
to make a little contribution tothe solution of the pains and
tribulations of their time, butto identify and announce the
ways in which Jesus is leadinggod's people out of slavery
through the desert to a new landof freedom. Christian leaders
(01:02:12):
have the arduous task ofresponding to personal
struggles, family conflicts,national calamities, and the
international tensions with anarticulate faith in god's real
presence. Thanks for listening.
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