October 14, 2025 • 73 mins
Debbie Hayes is a wife, mother of two, Mimi [grandmother], pastor’s wife and an administrative assistant for a school district. She is a former paralegal who has also served as a Boy Scout Leader, Girl Scout Leader, and school volunteer. Debbie is a member of the Unity Cumberland Presbyterian Church and currently serves as the Cumberland Presbyterian denomination’s Ministry Council President. She also is currently a member of the Board of Mission for Covenant Presbytery of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. Debbie is the former secretary and former president of the Covenant Region Cumberland Presbyterian Women’s Ministry and former secretary of the Cumberland Presbyterian Women’s Ministry Convention. She loves working with Vacation Bible School, Christmas plays and musicals and other programs in the church. In her free time, she enjoys spending time with her family, cooking, baking, making crafts, singing in the community choir, writing and planning events such as parties, showers and receptions.
Music is provided by Pierce Murphy, Caldera Blue.
Source: https://www.freemusicarchive.org/music/Pierce_Murphy/through-the-olive-branches/caldera-blue
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Additional comments: modifications made to shorten and loop song for introduction and closing of podcast.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
T. J. (00:03):
Welcome to the Cumberland Road. I'm your host, TJ
Malinoski. The following is thefaith journey of Debbie Hayes.
Debbie is the current presidentof the ministry council, the
ministry programming division ofthe Cumberland Presbyterian
denomination. Debbie lives inKentucky and is employed in her
(00:29):
school district as anadministrative assistant.
Service and volunteering areimportant to Debbie. She's an
active member of the UnityCumberland Presbyterian Church
in Murray, Kentucky. She has along list, and this is not
exhaustive, of how importantvolunteering and service is to
(00:52):
her. Currently, she serves onthe board of missions for her
presbytery. In the past, she hasbeen a Boy Scout leader, Girl
Scout leader, school volunteer.She has served as secretary and
president of her regionalwomen's ministry. She has served
(01:13):
as secretary of thedenomination's women's ministry
convention. She has volunteeredat countless vacation bible
schools, Christmas plays,musicals, and community choirs.
Debbie feels that service andvolunteering are part of her
(01:36):
calling. Enjoy my faithconversation with Debbie Hayes.
Debbie, I thought we would openour conversation about the
ministry council of theCumberland Presbyterian Church.
(01:59):
You are the current president.But before I jump into all that
stuff, could you walk me throughand the listener through what is
the ministry council? What doesit do? What's its function? And
then we'll glide right into yourrole as the president of the
(02:22):
Ministry Council. Assume I knownothing.
Debbie (02:30):
Thank you. Would say the ministry council of course, the
word ministry kinda gives alittle bit of insight as what we
do as accountable. We are oneentity of Cameroon Presbyterian
(02:58):
denomination that oversees theministry and the work. We have
different like missions. We havea mission history team.
(03:20):
We have a communications team.We have a store development
team, and we also have what'scalled the we have PBMT. So we
(03:46):
have missionaries anddiscipleship. And disciple.
Correct.
And so DMT, all these acronymsthat we have in our
deliberation, sometimes it'shard to keep straight.
T. J. (04:02):
It's crazy. Yeah, a couple of Presbyterians, we
speak in code and acronyms. And,you know, God forbid the people
who haven't picked up on thembecause it will just sound like
will sound like consonants withno vowels, which is exactly what
it is. And people won't know.But anyway, pastor development,
(04:26):
communications, discipleship,and missions ministry teams.
And then I began to speak overyou. Yeah, we got a lot of
acronyms. So go ahead.
Debbie (04:36):
That's correct. We have the Missions Ministry team, of
course, works with ourmissionaries, whether they are
in United States or outside ofThe United States. We have a big
global presence. We also haveour communications ministry
(05:03):
team. We have a wonderfulCumberland Posthering Magazine
that falls under that team.
Other publications that wepublish for CPE writers. We have
(05:27):
a pastoral team who truly have aheart for our ministry and those
work in the denomination. Andthen we have the disciples
(05:47):
ministry team, which deals a lotwith different programs and
resources that we use, and theyare all just wonderful.
T. J. (06:03):
Which one's your favorite?
Debbie (06:06):
Oh, I'm just messing with you.
T. J. (06:11):
That was a loaded question. I just wanted
Debbie (06:13):
That's to get like asking a mom which child is her
favorite. That's not fair.
T. J. (06:18):
And for those who are listening, I am actually on the
missions ministry team. Sothat's why it was a loaded
question. I really put Debbie onthe spot.
Debbie (06:30):
Well, I would say, as I've served on the ministry
council, we, over the years ofthose services, we get to serve
as a liaison on these teams. Andso I've been able to be a
liaison on three of the four sofar.
T. J. (06:55):
All right. We have these teams. These teams are staffed
with full time, part timeemployees. But then there's
another layer to this ministrycouncil, which is you're a part
of. And if you could kind ofexpand upon that.
So there's the staff, paidstaff, but then there's a
(07:20):
council council. And if youcould kind of unwrap that for in
just kind of more detail andexplanation of what that is and
what its purpose and functionis.
Debbie (07:34):
The council is a body of elected members. And they serve
three year terms and we canserve those up to three
consecutive terms. We representa broad area of the
(08:00):
denomination. We come fromdifferent presbyters. And we
have currently a member who isfrom Japan and one from
Colombia.
And our moderator of thedenomination of our general
(08:24):
assembly always suffers. Andthis year, of course, our
moderator, Reverend JohnMontano, is Colombian and
serving on on the ministrycouncil.
T. J. (08:42):
So what is the role of the elected members of the
ministry council?
Debbie (08:49):
Well, we get to meet with the ministry teams when we
meet August in person in Memphisand see what they are doing, the
work that they're wanting toproceed with. There's just
(09:15):
different, lots of differentaspects of the consul.
T. J. (09:22):
So as president, what what is the role of the
president? How long is thatterm? And how long have you been
in that role as the president ofthe ministry council?
Debbie (09:38):
You're elected for a one year term, and then you can be
reelected for another term. AndI am beginning this.
T. J. (09:48):
Okay. Your second term as president?
Debbie (09:51):
Yes.
T. J. (09:52):
Alright. Okay. Any epiphanies? Any revelations as
serving as an officer of theminister council before in you
know, like, any preconceivednotions that you may have had
before, you know, have yeah,anything come from serving as
(10:16):
the president?
Debbie (10:19):
I think so, because I really didn't understand the
true makeup of the nominationand I think a lot of people with
the nomination don't really knowor understand. You have general
(10:41):
assembly, but you haveadministrative tasks which is a
totally different entity andwe're a five zero one c three
organization. So we'reconcentrating on the ministry.
T. J. (11:01):
Yeah. And I think it's amazing because you were elected
as president by the ministrycouncil. And and you're just a
member of the church like therest of us, just just part of
(11:21):
the church. You haven't, youknow, like, scaled the Empire
State Building on your barehands, or I don't think you
have, you haven't, won the NobelPeace Prize. You've just a
regular person like everyoneelse in the denomination.
(11:43):
And so and it may not be aposition of high desire. I I
don't know. I guess only you andthe former presidents of the
ministry council could couldspeak to that. I do That's true.
Find
Debbie (11:55):
could depend on what was going on at the time.
T. J. (11:58):
That's true. But I find that amazing is, you know, a lot
of times we think in terms ofaccomplishments or popularity,
but that's not how our system isset up.
Debbie (12:11):
No. There are people on the ministry council with
totally different educationalbackgrounds, totally different
trying to decide how to getwe're made up of lay leaders,
(12:35):
ministers. You don't have atheological degree. You can be
just simple little Debbie fromKentucky.
T. J. (12:49):
Right. I think there's a willingness to serve, you know,
a passion for people, a passionfor the good news of Jesus
Christ. Being CumberlandPresbyterian and, and the church
at large will find a place foryou to share your gifts.
Debbie (13:10):
That's That's great.
T. J. (13:11):
I think that's pretty neat. Thank you for the
introduction, the brief overviewof the ministry council and kind
of its scope and its purpose andsome of the people and the roles
and what they entail or theirtheir focuses. Let's talk about
you and your faith and yourrelationship with God today. So,
(13:37):
Debbie, if we can bounce allover the place in this
conversation if you want to.Well, let's start early in your
life.
You know, as far back as as youcan recollect, where did you
experience, acknowledge,recognize that there was a place
(14:00):
for God in your life and youropenness to the faith and what
did that mean to you at thetime? And where were you? And
we'll just start there and carryon.
Debbie (14:15):
Okay. I grew up in church. My parents made sure
that I went to church everyweek. I grew up in the Southern
Baptist denomination, and mygrandparents were highly
(14:41):
involved in church. They werejust wonderful Christian
influences.
And I felt a tug early on in myheart, and I thought I'd come to
a profession. I thought I wasbut I was involved in church.
(15:09):
And then when I turned 17, hadgone with the youth to an event,
and God spoke to me right thenand I realized I had not
accepted him as my Lord andSavior and that was something I
(15:32):
definitely wanted. And rightthen and there, we were saved
and followed with baptism andwas very involved in church. We
had a children's church andworked in that.
(15:54):
I was in choir. Then growing upto college, met my husband. And
when we got married, we bothwanted, you know, to go to
(16:19):
church as a family. And mehaving brought it up Baptist,
and his family background wasCumberland Presbyterian except
for when his parents got marriedand moved to Paris, Tennessee,
they went to the Methodistchurch there. So anyway, when we
(16:46):
got married and we moved toMemphis and we decided, that
Cameroon Presbyterian church waswhere we belong, where we could
come together and we could servetogether.
And his wonderful grandfather,Reverend Ralph Mount Log and his
(17:13):
wife, Rachel, now mom andpeople, were just wonderful.
They were so loving andencouraging and then when Brian
called to the ministry, hispaparoma right there with us
(17:39):
encouraging us and supportingus. And so that really started,
you know, my involvement at ahigher level.
T. J. (17:58):
Oh, yeah. I would imagine so. Absolutely. Before we before
we jump into that, I wanted toask you a question, something
that you said earlier. When youwere 17, you said that God spoke
to you Mhmm.
And on a youth trip. Let's livethere for a little bit. So God
(18:22):
spoke to you. What did thatsound like? What did God say?
What is the the signs or thevoice like for you? And yeah,
let's start there. I'm alwaysintrigued that God speaks to
people in different ways. AndI'm curious to know how God
(18:45):
spoke to you.
Debbie (18:48):
Well, it was, like, audible right there in my face.
I mean, I just felt him speakingthrough my heart that Debbie,
you know, I want you tosurrender your life, and I want
(19:09):
to be a huge part of your life.I want I want to just love
T. J. (19:19):
That's interesting. So it really, it really was an
invitation, you know, in in whatyou experienced. Was that maybe
a movement from just churchattendance and being around
other Christians and being inthat environment to an actual
(19:40):
real relationship?
Debbie (19:45):
Well, people who have grown up in church from day one,
their experience with salvationmay be different than those who
have not experienced growing upin church.
T. J. (20:05):
Right. I've had those conversations before. You tell
me what you think. Where it, youknow, it's because you're in
that environment weekly,regularly, as a child growing
up, there may not be like thispivotal moment that you can
acknowledge, not necessarily tothe extreme of date, time, and
(20:28):
location, but just it's sort ofthat, like, through osmosis. And
it's it's in that selfreflection of like, oh, God has
always loved me.
And now I want to respond inturn what Cumberland
Presbyterians call a professionof faith. Yours sounds a little
(20:53):
different. You know, there therewas this experience to where, as
you said, you know, taking it tothe next level of, you know,
like a a formal publiccommitment. And then you did it
again when your husband receiveda call into ministry. So you
(21:17):
just keep ratcheting up, Debbie.
But I did all that.
Debbie (21:24):
I believe that when God calls someone into the ministry,
if they are man, as a spouse, Ishould support that common.
T. J. (21:45):
Yeah. Yeah. The spouse may not be in the pulpit or
leading the youth or whateverthe ministry may be. They may
not be doing home visits, orhospital visits, chaplain
visits, whatever the role ofministry may be. But it does
(22:07):
impact you and your relationshipwith your spouse and with God as
well.
I mean, you're absorbing some ofthat call just in in terms of
representing the good news. Andthere's sacrifices, which you
can certainly attest to andshare here if you want. That
(22:29):
comes with calling to theministry of the word and the
sacraments.
Debbie (22:36):
Definitely. I mean, it's not a nondefiled, And and it's
contrary to not a lot of peoplemight think or say you don't
work thirty minutes on Sundaymorning. And it's a 20 fourseven
(22:58):
job. It's not I'm here. I sayjob, but it is a job.
T. J. (23:05):
It it it is you are on call, and it is a calling. And
it's a, I guess that's the wordI've been using the past few
years. It's a vocation. Youknow, because I guess with a
job, you know, job as in you canshow up and not be plugged in,
(23:32):
you know, like, I mean, gothrough the motions and that
sort of thing in a job.Ministry, I don't believe allows
you to do that because part ofit is well, I mean, all of it is
relational.
And, like, if you and I werehaving a conversation and you
would sniff me out if I wasn'tpaying attention. You know? My
(23:56):
body language would give meaway. My eyes would give me
away. Know?
You know, easily destroy. Imean, there'd be so many signals
that I would put off knowinglyor unknowingly that so it'd have
to be more than that. And butyou're right. Anyway, let's get
back to you. So a calling, avocation in ministry
(24:21):
incorporates more than just oneindividual.
It sort of absorbs the wholefamily, spouse and children, if
there are children, for sure.
Debbie (24:32):
Definitely. We we try to involve our children as much as
possible. Brian or take the kidswhen they're little to visit
those who shut in. Christmas andbeer, we make homemade cookies
(24:54):
and candy. We go visit, take thekids, and it's a blessing, I
think, for those receiving thegift.
But to see the kids, theirreaction with those people, and
(25:17):
experience that love. It wasgreat. I mean, there's then
there's the second times, youknow, where your spouse gets
that call during the night, youknow, to go to the hospital or
the home because of an accidentor death, serious illness. So
(25:44):
you experienced the ups anddowns with your spouse.
T. J. (25:48):
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So what about you? So you you
went on, got some training andyou had and have a career as
well. So kind of walk me throughthat post Debbie at age of 17.
Debbie (26:11):
Okay.
T. J. (26:13):
Post 17, same Debbie. Yeah. That sounds a little bit
better.
Debbie (26:22):
I went to college. I did not finish my bachelor's. I do
have an associate's in businessadministration. I have a
certificate in paralyticstudies. And I started out as a
(26:46):
paralegal and worked indifferent areas of law.
And
T. J. (26:53):
So you are an excellent researcher Attractive. And
finder of things, cases,documents, people. Run me
through just kind of quicklywhat a paralegal typical week
could look like.
Debbie (27:15):
Well, depending on which area of law. I started working
for a law firm that handledpersonal injury, workers'
compensation, and socialsecurity. Then I went to work
for an attorney who handledmainly real estate law. Kind of
(27:41):
boring, you know, it it wasokay. And I had a wonderful
attorney I worked.
And then Brian got married,moved to Memphis, and worked for
the general counsel of abrokerage firm there at the
(28:03):
time. And that's where I endedup getting my certification. And
then we went back to the Paducaharea and went to work for the
prosecutor in Paducah. And Ilove because we would, you know,
(28:26):
I'd have to talk to victims,witnesses, victims' family, the
officers, court advocates thatinvolve children. Paralegal job
was interesting there.
(28:47):
I would go to the trials, helpselect juries, which was
interesting. And I was overgrand jury. So but then, you
know, life wasn't happening.Children are coming online.
T. J. (29:11):
They do.
Debbie (29:11):
And then Brian entered the ministry. And so I ended up,
what I thought was gonna be atemporary position while I was
trying to get on with schooldistrict was secretary for the
Margaret Cumberland PresbyterianChurch.
T. J. (29:32):
Okay.
Debbie (29:33):
And I was there seven years.
T. J. (29:37):
Wow. So in the paralegal, you really had to develop and
sharpen the skills, your peopleskills, being able to
communicate with people, getinformation from them, maybe
even sometimes information theyweren't ready to reveal or
provide. Look at me. I'mmeasuring my words. You were
(29:59):
doing that earlier.
And yeah, you got to be really,really good at that or you won't
be a paralegal for very long.But I always imagined a
paralegal, like almost sort oflike an archeologist down in,
you know, the basement of acourthouse and or somewhere
(30:22):
searching for files, you know,that hadn't been discovered in
years or may not even exist andand finding figures and facts
that no one thought existed. Andin my mind, I just painted it,
or I do paint it as aninteresting vocation.
Debbie (30:45):
It definitely was. And it was really working,
especially for those familieswho were needing closure. I did
have an experience one day incourt where we had the trial, a
(31:08):
murderer. These two men hadmurdered a young man, and the
mother of the victim, you know,was able to get up and speak
during the second many days. Andshe was the strongest, precious
(31:32):
Christian woman I think I'veever seen.
She stood right there, toldthose two young that she forgave
him. God loved him. And shewould be praying for them while
they were.
T. J. (31:54):
Those would be hard words to say. Mhmm. And mean them.
Yeah.
Debbie (32:00):
And she did. Mhmm.
T. J. (32:07):
Debbie, you shifted gears, as you said, you know,
your husband responding to acall in ministry, your children
growing. And so you went fromthe paralegal, the legal world,
the world of the courts, to thethe world of the church. And you
(32:28):
served as office administratorat the Margaret Hainte
Cumberland Presbyterian Churchthere in Paducah. And I cut you
off. You said that you werethere for about seven years.
So let's let's talk about howyou're shifting into service
(32:48):
into the church and what thatlooked like for you. A different
kind of service and ministry inthe church.
Debbie (32:55):
It was different. But at same time, you know, I do in the
denomination, in the area,through either churches, through
Cumberland Presbyterian Women'sMinistry, or children's
(33:21):
activities. And that was veryhelpful to serve the Margaret
Church. They were wonderfulpeople. They loved me.
They loved my family. Brianfilled in as interim pastor a
(33:45):
few times while they were inbetween, and he was serving at
the Oakland CumberlandPresbyterian Church just outside
of Bodega.
T. J. (33:57):
Okay.
Debbie (33:58):
And they were just they were just like crazy. And got
really close of course.
T. J. (34:10):
Let's talk about your faith here. So you know, you
were in secular work, but itstill puts you around people
every day. But now you arearound, or at least on a regular
basis, dealing with church folkwho are the best people on the
planet and sometimes not alwaysthe best people on the planet.
(34:34):
So your faith. Did your faithdeepen during your time in
serving in a church in a very,very different level?
I mean, you were a staff memberof a church. So it was more than
just coming to worship or tosing in the choir or to be part
of women's group or the variousdifferent activities. You're
(34:56):
actually an employee of a localchurch.
Debbie (35:02):
I think it did. Like you said, it is different, but at
the same time, it's the same.
T. J. (35:14):
Same people. Same people.
Debbie (35:15):
People are people. You're gonna catch on good days
and bad days. You know, theywere not gonna agree with, you
know, exactly how you're notawarded something in a
newsletter, or you have a typoin a bulletin.
T. J. (35:39):
That's okay. Yeah. I didn't even think about that. So
what maybe Monday or Tuesday andwe're recording this on a Monday
night. So this may very wellbeen the day when you got a
phone call, there's a littlenote on your desk, when you come
in on Monday of the mistakesfound in the bulletin that you
(36:00):
had either typed or printed offor folded or maybe even all of
the above, you know, where thereare always those people that
will be able to to go the datewas left over from last week or
one digit was wrong and thenaming of the hymn or here, I'll
(36:21):
let you pick up.
Can probably come up with somereal doozies.
Debbie (36:25):
No, would a case when you had the bulletin on your
desk and the red circle.
T. J. (36:32):
Like you're being graded. Was
Debbie (36:36):
this person a retired teacher? Yeah,
T. J. (36:42):
sounds like you were being graded. Yeah, for sure.
What else did you draw from thatexperience and that service in
the church?
Debbie (36:55):
I learned about relationships more. Not just
with the people in the church,but also the denomination by
work. They're plus beinginvolved on the Presbyterian
level and with the Carmel andPresbyterian women's industry on
(37:23):
a regional level.
T. J. (37:25):
Yeah. That's that's right. Because, you know, I
guess the average the averageperson, you know, when we think
of church and describe church,we think of the just the kind of
the local context, thecongregation and the church
family that we're a part of.Right? Then and, you know,
(37:47):
there, that church, thatparticular church on that
particular street.
But with a spouse experiencing acall to ministry and then you
actually serving in a localchurch, you get exposed that,
hey, there are I mean, youalways know that there are other
churches, but there really areother churches, and here's how
(38:08):
you're connected to them. Andyou get kind of exposed to,
specifically for us thatPresbyterian, that
representative form of churchgovernment.
Debbie (38:21):
Well, and during my time, I also served as the
reporting clerk for ourPresbytery. Part of that time
was Regional Women's MinistryPresident.
T. J. (38:36):
Oh, okay. Well, I need to catch up with you. So you were
just, you were just blossomingand serving in every different
place that you could. So helpme. How did that fit in the
timeline of when you wereworking at the Margaret Hank
Church?
Were you were you alreadyinvolved in these other roles?
(38:59):
Or did they come during thatseven year time span?
Debbie (39:02):
It was during that seven year time span. Well, I became
the recording clerk probablyjust a few minutes after it
started working, Margaret Hain.
T. J. (39:15):
Okay. As we do as Cumberlands and as the church,
we find somebody with a skillset and the inability to say no,
and you just get plugged in alldifferent places.
Debbie (39:31):
You know, they always say, when you retire, you always
wonder how do you get everythingdone? And at this time, I look
you haven't retired yet, but Ilook back and I'm thinking, man,
I'm tired when I get home. Howdid I do what I did back then?
(39:54):
Of course I was younger.
T. J. (39:55):
Yeah, but still, okay, let's be realistic. So you have
a spouse who's returning toschool and then ultimately
graduates, but returning to Youhave how many children do you
have? Two? Three? I have two.
Two. So you have, at this time,two school age children. You're
(40:15):
working full time at a localchurch. You're active in an in
your own church. Right.
And and then active in women'sministry and then a recording
clerk. That would eat up allthose responsibilities would eat
up many hours of each day.
Debbie (40:33):
Then adding in a Cub Scout mom who volunteers as a
leader, a girls game leader.It's just, it was a lot.
T. J. (40:49):
I'm gonna throw your question back at you. How did
you do all of that?
Debbie (40:55):
I think it's because I knew what I had to do when it
was. And I just And
T. J. (41:04):
if it was really work, you probably would have been
tired. I mean, work or job as wewere talking about earlier, you
know, probably would feel like.I guess it didn't then.
Debbie (41:18):
Well, working at the Margaret Hanks Church, they were
always gracious to allow me towork church camp or, you know,
tend to feed home, things likethat.
T. J. (41:37):
When we were talking earlier, before this recording,
you told me that you now work inthe school system. So now we're
kind of moving up to present dayor closer to present day. So how
did you what do you do in theschool system and how did you
(42:00):
kind of get into that role inthat position?
Debbie (42:03):
Okay, currently, I'm an administrative assistant at the
Marshall Kennedy Board ofEducation in Bentonville. Is I'm
beginning my eighteenth schoolyear. I always wanted to be on
(42:25):
my kid's schedule when they bothgot into school. And, the
position had opened eventually.And as an instructional
assistant for special needs inthe preschool.
And so I went for a review, andthey asked me, what are you
(42:52):
going to tell the child who'shaving a first day in school,
having a tough day in nursing,and what would you say? And I
said, I'll say, this is my firstday too. I'm in trouble. Let's
(43:15):
just do this together. And I gotthe job.
T. J. (43:20):
So that first job, you said it was instructional
assistant? Is that correct?Okay. So kind of, kind of walk
me, you know, what is that? Whatdoes that Okay.
Debbie (43:33):
An instructional assistant is basically an
assistant teacher. But I workwith special needs students. So
I would and it was in preschoolsetting. And one of the children
I worked with had severaldisabilities and was pretty much
(44:00):
immobile. Got to help teach herhow to use the wheelchair for
the first one.
Using a little toggle switch.Ran over it once. That's okay.
Worked with a child withblindness and a child who had
(44:27):
cerebral palsy, But we wouldwork with them on
accommodations, and you find outthese children, they don't have
disabilities. They do have adisability.
We just have to figure out howto make everything for them.
T. J. (44:49):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And develop those communication
skills. Communication, as wewere talking about earlier,
there's many ways tocommunicate, daily life skills.
Then the sensitivity of thereare many communities within the
(45:11):
community of disability.
So it's a diverse mix ofbeautiful people and who have
beautiful gifts and differentneeds and being able to connect
in the ways that people need tobe connecting. Wonderful
(45:37):
community to work in for sure.Very rewarding and challenging.
Debbie (45:43):
It was challenging at times, but we all get frustrated
or have issues. A lot of thetimes kids will school and
people want to sometimes theybehave the way they do. But you
(46:07):
know if they had to sleep inthis night. You don't know if
the last time they had food intheir belly was at lunch at
school or if there was a problemin that home during the night
they didn't go to sleep. So
T. J. (46:30):
Thinking back on that period of your career, how did
your faith and how does yourfaith speak to, the role that
you were you were in at thetime, how you interacted with
the preschoolers and the otherstaff and the preschoolers
(46:53):
parents and caregivers.
Debbie (46:56):
You just love them. And you encourage them. And you show
you really care about thesechildren. With the preschoolers,
we would go a home visit a fewtimes And so you get to see
(47:18):
firsthand, you know, what theirhome is like. It's an eye out
there.
But the parents get to know you.You get to know the parents,
and, you know, you get to earntrust. And they or they did, you
(47:45):
know, you show that you wanttheir child.
T. J. (47:48):
Yeah. Yeah. Your role in the school system is different
today.
Debbie (47:57):
So,
T. J. (47:58):
let's talk about what you do now.
Debbie (48:00):
Well, I'm going to go back up. There was an
opportunity that opened up atour board office to be the
administrative assistant for thespecial education director. And
I thought, oh, I could help on ahigher level and use my office
(48:28):
administration and para skillsand interviewed that position.
And I've been at the boardoffice now since 2010. My roles
(48:48):
have changed over the years.
I still assist the specialeducation director, but also the
other director.
T. J. (48:59):
What's rewarding about this role?
Debbie (49:06):
Well, like I said, you get to help on a higher level.
Because you as the director, andthe director has things that he
needs to concentrate on or go tomeetings with issues or
(49:27):
whatever. And I can take care ofthe stuff that's in the office
on a daily basis.
T. J. (49:36):
And you serve more than one school in that that
particular role.
Debbie (49:40):
We have ten nine nine schools class of technology
school in our district. We havesix elementary, two middle
schools, and one high school.
T. J. (49:56):
Does each school have facilities and staff for people
or for students withintellectual disabilities?
Debbie (50:06):
Yes. We have amazing SPEDS. Our high school has a
program called RISE, R I S D,and it is just amazing to see
these young people learn lifeskills and just have fun and
(50:36):
learn and be loved. They cook.They learn how to wash and dry
clothes.
That it's amazing.
T. J. (50:49):
And you get to be a part of that. And Yes. In an
indirect, somewhat direct way. Adifferent much different than
when you were working in oneclassroom.
Debbie (51:03):
Well, I also work with we have occupational therapists.
We have a physical therapist. Wehave speech language
pathologist. We have an autismconsultant, a behavior
consultant, nursing staff, andschool psychologists that I work
(51:27):
with.
T. J. (51:28):
Okay. A lot of people. And a lot of those, each, I
guess each county and maybestate is different. So some of
those people would be outsideconsultants, but can come and
serve in the students in theschool system. And then some of
(51:49):
the lists that you of staff thatyou've mentioned would actually
be county or staff employees.
Correct?
Debbie (51:59):
We are now at the point we actually employ those people.
They're not contracted.
T. J. (52:07):
Oh, okay. Okay. So they don't work for an outside
consultant agency or or ahospital or physical therapy?
Okay.
Debbie (52:17):
No. They have different powers.
T. J. (52:19):
All right. Well, I feel half smart. I was in the
ballpark of Well, that's good.So that you can provide, I
guess, a level of consistency,maybe even longevity when it
comes to those staff. They havea tendency to stick around.
(52:45):
Alright. Debbie, we we've talkedabout your secular work, your
work in the church. Let's swingback around to the Cumberland
Presbyterian Church, and and youhave kind of a a very unique
insider's view of the CumberlandPresbyterian Church as a
(53:06):
denomination. You you wereintroduced to it in young
adulthood, And then kind oflater, a little bit later in
life, you end up being part of ashared ministry. And then you
have served the CumberlandPresbyterian Church in many,
many different levels.
(53:26):
So with that precursor, I'd loveto be able to hear your insight.
What are your observations,strengths, weaknesses, that you
see, you've experienced for theCumberland Presbyterian Church
or within the CumberlandPresbyterian Church? Pretend
(53:46):
that you're speaking to somebodythat's never even heard of this
denomination. What would youwant them to know? Good, bad,
ugly?
Debbie (53:57):
We are one big family. You have the good, bad, ugly
with any family or anyorganization. We're not anymore.
(54:17):
But one thing that I've alwaysliked about Cameron Church is
this sense of unity that we'vehad. There's there's a lot that
(54:42):
goes on in the world, but we, Ithink, pretty much just believe
that we have a mission to God,that we need to go out, and we
(55:04):
need to do his and that, youknow, they said it's
connectional.
They always said that. And Ialways felt unique because when
I was little, being at a Baptistchurch, you know, we didn't do
(55:28):
things really with other Baptistchurches in the area. But Carlin
Presbyterian churches, we'realways doing things together and
I love that. You know, there'ssome kind of little activity, a
(55:50):
special service or you're gonnahave Bethel come for everybody
gets invited, you know, fromthat area. You just feel that
connection, that family.
Mhmm. And that it's not justhere in The United States. We
(56:13):
are in 20 countries. And that'sjust amazing to me.
T. J. (56:19):
It is. It's baffling. Know, numerically, we may not be
a extremely large denomination.But we certainly have family to
use your use your word. We havefamily just scattered all over
(56:39):
the world and doing ministry.
Speaking of family, it didn'thave to be connected just to
actual family members, but whoare some of the people that
have, throughout the course ofyour life, really impacted your
faith, really helped you grow inyour relationship with God?
Debbie (57:06):
Well, of course, first family. My mom and dad were
always involved in church andtheir parents. I remember to my
dad's house, you know, to spendthe night and I can hear my
(57:28):
grandmother in the room everynight When I was lying in the
bed, she was in there readingher bible. She would read it out
loud, and then she would pray.My grandfather was a deacon in
the church and just they hadthis wonderful love.
(57:56):
And it was because theirmarriage was on God. And, you
know, they would get into alittle argument, of and my
grandfather would go out to hislittle woodshop, work a little
(58:17):
bit. My grandmother would bebest in the kitchen. And then my
grandfather would come in theback door, and he gets the white
finger chuff out of his pocket,And he waved in the air, like, I
surrendered. And my grandpa didlaugh.
And then they were fine.
T. J. (58:41):
That's funny.
Debbie (58:43):
But they just wonderful.
T. J. (58:45):
He waved the Yeah.
Debbie (58:51):
I don't know. But my dad, while I was working for
Margaret, I went throughpancreatic cancer. And he was
they found him, he's in thehospital, he's had his major
surgery And he was supposed tohave been driving his truck that
(59:20):
week to pull a work trailer forhis truck to go to New Orleans
and work with the people who hadbeen victims of Hurricane
Katrina. And he called some ofthe people in the church, and
(59:44):
they came to visit him in thehospital. And he gave his track
keys.
He said, I might not go, but mytrack didn't go. And so anyway,
T. J. (59:58):
I like that. They
Debbie (59:59):
brought back a picture. They printed of his truck and
trailer in front of church thatthey were held to build.
T. J. (01:00:08):
That's awesome. The truck was an extension of him. That's
awesome.
Debbie (01:00:14):
In a
T. J. (01:00:14):
good way. In a good way.
Debbie (01:00:15):
But and then Brian grandparents, of course. Mhmm.
His grandfather, she was justwonderful, wonderful wonderful
pastor's wife, and she told meshe said, now, Debbie, if you
(01:00:38):
don't remember anything,remember this. At church public,
don't volunteer to put the breadback into the loaf bag because
it won't go back in the way itcame out. He had a sense of
(01:01:04):
humor.
T. J. (01:01:05):
That's funny. Debbie, what did I leave out? What
question did I not ask that youthought that I might? What area
of your life and your faith didI miss that you want to share?
(01:01:27):
Such a dangerous question.
You could
Debbie (01:01:29):
really dangerous.
T. J. (01:01:30):
You could really take this in any direction.
Debbie (01:01:34):
Well, sometimes I think people, if they know, like, the
Christian pastor, They might actdifferently or treat you
(01:01:57):
differently. I remember workingin the school, and I mean I just
would say I'm a pastor's wifeyou know I didn't announce it
but one day one of the employeesin the school had found out she
came to me and she said I needto apologize to you. And I said,
(01:02:22):
for what? She said, I don'tknow. But I found out at the
pastor's mom, and I'm sure I'vesaid something that was
inappropriate.
I said, you're fine. I stillcan't serve. Know, we've we've
(01:02:43):
been through our school has beenthrough some bad We went through
a school shooting. This was in2018 and never forget that
(01:03:04):
thing. Then twenty one DecemberWe had the tornadoes that came
up through Tennessee and WesternKentucky and it devastated
several communities here in ourcommunity.
(01:03:26):
We lost 2,002. And I'm gratefulthat I'll let the community that
is very faith based, where wecan come together and be strong
(01:03:49):
for each other and lean on ourfaith. I don't know. We've been
through, personally, a lot ofadversity. Brandon, our son, he
(01:04:12):
went through a disease in hiships when he was was treated by
Shriners, and he's fine.
He teaches technical educationin Clarksville, Tennessee. And
(01:04:34):
Brian went through some seriousback surgeries, open heart
surgery, and some surgery. And,you know, just everything we've
been through, I can't be patientgoing through any of it without
(01:04:57):
God. And it just hurts my heartto know that there are people
out there who don't have him,don't have that, and they're
going through struggles. And Ijust can't imagine going through
(01:05:18):
anything without God.
You know, even when people aregoing through bereavement, if I
don't have that church thing inthe world, I just hurt. How
T. J. (01:05:37):
did you and how are you, Debbie? Going through these
experiences within yourcommunity and within your family
and not come out on the otherside not angry or bitter or
disillusioned because you wouldhave every right to to feel that
(01:06:02):
way, to be that way, to behavethat way, but you're not. How
come? What do you have thatothers do not? Well,
Debbie (01:06:18):
it doesn't mean I haven't struggled, you know,
when we have it. When Brian hadhis back surgeries and heart
surgery, that was during COVIDtime, like right before and
during. And so that was that wastough. Because the world is
(01:06:45):
different. You know, you didn'thave all that personal inner
relationship.
But
T. J. (01:06:53):
And things were changing day to day. They were. Least
week to week. Mhmm. Everybodywas trying to figure out what to
do.
And then you had that doublelayer of your own personal life
and family was changing day today.
Debbie (01:07:07):
Well, and we had my mother and at the time, Brian's
trying to help during COVID.Brian's is ill, and so we would
take, you know, weekends to gostay with to help keep him safe.
(01:07:34):
You know? Brian's peers and thefamilies helped. And but it I
just can't imagine without Godgoing through anything that
we've been But you just staystrong.
(01:07:56):
You read the bible. You pray alot. You know? And I try to play
Christian music. You know?
It's always on more and at hometoo. I just I don't know. I
(01:08:20):
can't imagine going throughwithout feeling that love,
peace, and that comfort thatonly he can
T. J. (01:08:30):
give. Yeah. And I think having those things also comes
with the overwhelming joy andneed to be able to share it with
others, whether they receive itor understand it or not, it's
(01:08:55):
still there for us to be zealousabout. This is who I could be,
or this is who I was. But thisis who I am and why.
I mean, that's an invitation. Itis. Invitations can be turned
(01:09:16):
away. But it can't be unless wejust invite people. There is no
invite.
Debbie (01:09:24):
That's true. And I've been writing. Hopefully, someday
I'll get it published aboutthese adversities that I've been
through so that you can helpothers.
T. J. (01:09:43):
That's awesome. Just that short period, not short, I'm
sure it felt like eternity, butthe last, what, eight years,
seven, eight, I guess we'regetting kind of close to ten
years of your life. Is that whatyou're focusing on? Or are you
(01:10:04):
have you expanded beyond justthe last ten years, this book
that you're writing or havewritten? If I'm pushing too
much, just say, you know, it's awork in progress.
Debbie (01:10:18):
I'm trying to think. No, it goes back further, really
throughout our ministry.
T. J. (01:10:28):
Do you have a title for it yet?
Debbie (01:10:31):
Playing around with it.
T. J. (01:10:33):
Okay.
Debbie (01:10:36):
Live. Let's see. I wrote it down just in case you said
T. J. (01:10:41):
Subject to change, but at the
Debbie (01:10:42):
moment Yes, subject to change.
T. J. (01:10:44):
Right. Okay.
Debbie (01:10:45):
But life's inconvenience is blessing in disguise.
T. J. (01:10:52):
Okay. Alright. It's kind of catchy.
Debbie (01:10:57):
Working on.
T. J. (01:10:59):
I like it. Debbie, thank you for giving me a couple hours
of your time. I hope it didn'tfeel like a couple hours.
Debbie (01:11:08):
No. Mean At all.
T. J. (01:11:09):
Since I I don't know how
Debbie (01:11:10):
Just like sitting in the living room talking.
T. J. (01:11:13):
That's awesome. Except we're one dimensional as we But
record this on thank you forsharing. This has given me the
opportunity to, well, get toknow you. We had a short phone
conversation in preparation forthis. Just kind of you were
feeling me out to see if this issomething that you wanted to do,
(01:11:35):
and I'm very grateful that youdid.
But it's given me a greatopportunity to just sit down
with you, be able to get to knowyou better, have a laugh with
you, but just hear of the thewonderful grace that God is has
bestowed upon you. It's changedyour life, and you invited me
in, and I appreciate it.
Debbie (01:11:55):
Well, thank you.
T. J. (01:11:57):
Thanks for listening to this episode of Cumberland Road.
After having this faithconversation with Debbie, I
found a poem that I feel isappropriate for her emphasis on
growing up in church and theimportance of church in one's
life. The poet is CatherinePulsifer, and this poem is
(01:12:21):
called A Grounding Place. In thestillness of the pews, hearts
find solace, a refuge fromlife's tumultuous flow. Church
stands as an anchor, a blessedgrace, where souls seek respite
(01:12:44):
and God's presence known. Forwithin these walls, whispers of
peace thrive, melodies of faithwhispering through the souls, A
sanctuary where weary spiritsrevive. Church binds us close to
our purposeful goals. FromSunday's embrace to each week,
(01:13:08):
anew church, a grounding placeguiding us through. Thanks for
listening.
Welcome to the Cumberland Road. I'm your host, TJ
Malinoski. The following is thefaith journey of Debbie Hayes.
Debbie is the current presidentof the ministry council, the
ministry programming division ofthe Cumberland Presbyterian
denomination. Debbie lives inKentucky and is employed in her
(00:29):
school district as anadministrative assistant.
Service and volunteering areimportant to Debbie. She's an
active member of the UnityCumberland Presbyterian Church
in Murray, Kentucky. She has along list, and this is not
exhaustive, of how importantvolunteering and service is to
(00:52):
her. Currently, she serves onthe board of missions for her
presbytery. In the past, she hasbeen a Boy Scout leader, Girl
Scout leader, school volunteer.She has served as secretary and
president of her regionalwomen's ministry. She has served
(01:13):
as secretary of thedenomination's women's ministry
convention. She has volunteeredat countless vacation bible
schools, Christmas plays,musicals, and community choirs.
Debbie feels that service andvolunteering are part of her
(01:36):
calling. Enjoy my faithconversation with Debbie Hayes.
Debbie, I thought we would openour conversation about the
ministry council of theCumberland Presbyterian Church.
(01:59):
You are the current president.But before I jump into all that
stuff, could you walk me throughand the listener through what is
the ministry council? What doesit do? What's its function? And
then we'll glide right into yourrole as the president of the
(02:22):
Ministry Council. Assume I knownothing.
Debbie (02:30):
Thank you. Would say the ministry council of course, the
word ministry kinda gives alittle bit of insight as what we
do as accountable. We are oneentity of Cameroon Presbyterian
(02:58):
denomination that oversees theministry and the work. We have
different like missions. We havea mission history team.
(03:20):
We have a communications team.We have a store development
team, and we also have what'scalled the we have PBMT. So we
(03:46):
have missionaries anddiscipleship. And disciple.
Correct.
And so DMT, all these acronymsthat we have in our
deliberation, sometimes it'shard to keep straight.
T. J. (04:02):
It's crazy. Yeah, a couple of Presbyterians, we
speak in code and acronyms. And,you know, God forbid the people
who haven't picked up on thembecause it will just sound like
will sound like consonants withno vowels, which is exactly what
it is. And people won't know.But anyway, pastor development,
(04:26):
communications, discipleship,and missions ministry teams.
And then I began to speak overyou. Yeah, we got a lot of
acronyms. So go ahead.
Debbie (04:36):
That's correct. We have the Missions Ministry team, of
course, works with ourmissionaries, whether they are
in United States or outside ofThe United States. We have a big
global presence. We also haveour communications ministry
(05:03):
team. We have a wonderfulCumberland Posthering Magazine
that falls under that team.
Other publications that wepublish for CPE writers. We have
(05:27):
a pastoral team who truly have aheart for our ministry and those
work in the denomination. Andthen we have the disciples
(05:47):
ministry team, which deals a lotwith different programs and
resources that we use, and theyare all just wonderful.
T. J. (06:03):
Which one's your favorite?
Debbie (06:06):
Oh, I'm just messing with you.
T. J. (06:11):
That was a loaded question. I just wanted
Debbie (06:13):
That's to get like asking a mom which child is her
favorite. That's not fair.
T. J. (06:18):
And for those who are listening, I am actually on the
missions ministry team. Sothat's why it was a loaded
question. I really put Debbie onthe spot.
Debbie (06:30):
Well, I would say, as I've served on the ministry
council, we, over the years ofthose services, we get to serve
as a liaison on these teams. Andso I've been able to be a
liaison on three of the four sofar.
T. J. (06:55):
All right. We have these teams. These teams are staffed
with full time, part timeemployees. But then there's
another layer to this ministrycouncil, which is you're a part
of. And if you could kind ofexpand upon that.
So there's the staff, paidstaff, but then there's a
(07:20):
council council. And if youcould kind of unwrap that for in
just kind of more detail andexplanation of what that is and
what its purpose and functionis.
Debbie (07:34):
The council is a body of elected members. And they serve
three year terms and we canserve those up to three
consecutive terms. We representa broad area of the
(08:00):
denomination. We come fromdifferent presbyters. And we
have currently a member who isfrom Japan and one from
Colombia.
And our moderator of thedenomination of our general
(08:24):
assembly always suffers. Andthis year, of course, our
moderator, Reverend JohnMontano, is Colombian and
serving on on the ministrycouncil.
T. J. (08:42):
So what is the role of the elected members of the
ministry council?
Debbie (08:49):
Well, we get to meet with the ministry teams when we
meet August in person in Memphisand see what they are doing, the
work that they're wanting toproceed with. There's just
(09:15):
different, lots of differentaspects of the consul.
T. J. (09:22):
So as president, what what is the role of the
president? How long is thatterm? And how long have you been
in that role as the president ofthe ministry council?
Debbie (09:38):
You're elected for a one year term, and then you can be
reelected for another term. AndI am beginning this.
T. J. (09:48):
Okay. Your second term as president?
Debbie (09:51):
Yes.
T. J. (09:52):
Alright. Okay. Any epiphanies? Any revelations as
serving as an officer of theminister council before in you
know, like, any preconceivednotions that you may have had
before, you know, have yeah,anything come from serving as
(10:16):
the president?
Debbie (10:19):
I think so, because I really didn't understand the
true makeup of the nominationand I think a lot of people with
the nomination don't really knowor understand. You have general
(10:41):
assembly, but you haveadministrative tasks which is a
totally different entity andwe're a five zero one c three
organization. So we'reconcentrating on the ministry.
T. J. (11:01):
Yeah. And I think it's amazing because you were elected
as president by the ministrycouncil. And and you're just a
member of the church like therest of us, just just part of
(11:21):
the church. You haven't, youknow, like, scaled the Empire
State Building on your barehands, or I don't think you
have, you haven't, won the NobelPeace Prize. You've just a
regular person like everyoneelse in the denomination.
(11:43):
And so and it may not be aposition of high desire. I I
don't know. I guess only you andthe former presidents of the
ministry council could couldspeak to that. I do That's true.
Find
Debbie (11:55):
could depend on what was going on at the time.
T. J. (11:58):
That's true. But I find that amazing is, you know, a lot
of times we think in terms ofaccomplishments or popularity,
but that's not how our system isset up.
Debbie (12:11):
No. There are people on the ministry council with
totally different educationalbackgrounds, totally different
trying to decide how to getwe're made up of lay leaders,
(12:35):
ministers. You don't have atheological degree. You can be
just simple little Debbie fromKentucky.
T. J. (12:49):
Right. I think there's a willingness to serve, you know,
a passion for people, a passionfor the good news of Jesus
Christ. Being CumberlandPresbyterian and, and the church
at large will find a place foryou to share your gifts.
Debbie (13:10):
That's That's great.
T. J. (13:11):
I think that's pretty neat. Thank you for the
introduction, the brief overviewof the ministry council and kind
of its scope and its purpose andsome of the people and the roles
and what they entail or theirtheir focuses. Let's talk about
you and your faith and yourrelationship with God today. So,
(13:37):
Debbie, if we can bounce allover the place in this
conversation if you want to.Well, let's start early in your
life.
You know, as far back as as youcan recollect, where did you
experience, acknowledge,recognize that there was a place
(14:00):
for God in your life and youropenness to the faith and what
did that mean to you at thetime? And where were you? And
we'll just start there and carryon.
Debbie (14:15):
Okay. I grew up in church. My parents made sure
that I went to church everyweek. I grew up in the Southern
Baptist denomination, and mygrandparents were highly
(14:41):
involved in church. They werejust wonderful Christian
influences.
And I felt a tug early on in myheart, and I thought I'd come to
a profession. I thought I wasbut I was involved in church.
(15:09):
And then when I turned 17, hadgone with the youth to an event,
and God spoke to me right thenand I realized I had not
accepted him as my Lord andSavior and that was something I
(15:32):
definitely wanted. And rightthen and there, we were saved
and followed with baptism andwas very involved in church. We
had a children's church andworked in that.
(15:54):
I was in choir. Then growing upto college, met my husband. And
when we got married, we bothwanted, you know, to go to
(16:19):
church as a family. And mehaving brought it up Baptist,
and his family background wasCumberland Presbyterian except
for when his parents got marriedand moved to Paris, Tennessee,
they went to the Methodistchurch there. So anyway, when we
(16:46):
got married and we moved toMemphis and we decided, that
Cameroon Presbyterian church waswhere we belong, where we could
come together and we could servetogether.
And his wonderful grandfather,Reverend Ralph Mount Log and his
(17:13):
wife, Rachel, now mom andpeople, were just wonderful.
They were so loving andencouraging and then when Brian
called to the ministry, hispaparoma right there with us
(17:39):
encouraging us and supportingus. And so that really started,
you know, my involvement at ahigher level.
T. J. (17:58):
Oh, yeah. I would imagine so. Absolutely. Before we before
we jump into that, I wanted toask you a question, something
that you said earlier. When youwere 17, you said that God spoke
to you Mhmm.
And on a youth trip. Let's livethere for a little bit. So God
(18:22):
spoke to you. What did thatsound like? What did God say?
What is the the signs or thevoice like for you? And yeah,
let's start there. I'm alwaysintrigued that God speaks to
people in different ways. AndI'm curious to know how God
(18:45):
spoke to you.
Debbie (18:48):
Well, it was, like, audible right there in my face.
I mean, I just felt him speakingthrough my heart that Debbie,
you know, I want you tosurrender your life, and I want
(19:09):
to be a huge part of your life.I want I want to just love
T. J. (19:19):
That's interesting. So it really, it really was an
invitation, you know, in in whatyou experienced. Was that maybe
a movement from just churchattendance and being around
other Christians and being inthat environment to an actual
(19:40):
real relationship?
Debbie (19:45):
Well, people who have grown up in church from day one,
their experience with salvationmay be different than those who
have not experienced growing upin church.
T. J. (20:05):
Right. I've had those conversations before. You tell
me what you think. Where it, youknow, it's because you're in
that environment weekly,regularly, as a child growing
up, there may not be like thispivotal moment that you can
acknowledge, not necessarily tothe extreme of date, time, and
(20:28):
location, but just it's sort ofthat, like, through osmosis. And
it's it's in that selfreflection of like, oh, God has
always loved me.
And now I want to respond inturn what Cumberland
Presbyterians call a professionof faith. Yours sounds a little
(20:53):
different. You know, there therewas this experience to where, as
you said, you know, taking it tothe next level of, you know,
like a a formal publiccommitment. And then you did it
again when your husband receiveda call into ministry. So you
(21:17):
just keep ratcheting up, Debbie.
But I did all that.
Debbie (21:24):
I believe that when God calls someone into the ministry,
if they are man, as a spouse, Ishould support that common.
T. J. (21:45):
Yeah. Yeah. The spouse may not be in the pulpit or
leading the youth or whateverthe ministry may be. They may
not be doing home visits, orhospital visits, chaplain
visits, whatever the role ofministry may be. But it does
(22:07):
impact you and your relationshipwith your spouse and with God as
well.
I mean, you're absorbing some ofthat call just in in terms of
representing the good news. Andthere's sacrifices, which you
can certainly attest to andshare here if you want. That
(22:29):
comes with calling to theministry of the word and the
sacraments.
Debbie (22:36):
Definitely. I mean, it's not a nondefiled, And and it's
contrary to not a lot of peoplemight think or say you don't
work thirty minutes on Sundaymorning. And it's a 20 fourseven
(22:58):
job. It's not I'm here. I sayjob, but it is a job.
T. J. (23:05):
It it it is you are on call, and it is a calling. And
it's a, I guess that's the wordI've been using the past few
years. It's a vocation. Youknow, because I guess with a
job, you know, job as in you canshow up and not be plugged in,
(23:32):
you know, like, I mean, gothrough the motions and that
sort of thing in a job.Ministry, I don't believe allows
you to do that because part ofit is well, I mean, all of it is
relational.
And, like, if you and I werehaving a conversation and you
would sniff me out if I wasn'tpaying attention. You know? My
(23:56):
body language would give meaway. My eyes would give me
away. Know?
You know, easily destroy. Imean, there'd be so many signals
that I would put off knowinglyor unknowingly that so it'd have
to be more than that. And butyou're right. Anyway, let's get
back to you. So a calling, avocation in ministry
(24:21):
incorporates more than just oneindividual.
It sort of absorbs the wholefamily, spouse and children, if
there are children, for sure.
Debbie (24:32):
Definitely. We we try to involve our children as much as
possible. Brian or take the kidswhen they're little to visit
those who shut in. Christmas andbeer, we make homemade cookies
(24:54):
and candy. We go visit, take thekids, and it's a blessing, I
think, for those receiving thegift.
But to see the kids, theirreaction with those people, and
(25:17):
experience that love. It wasgreat. I mean, there's then
there's the second times, youknow, where your spouse gets
that call during the night, youknow, to go to the hospital or
the home because of an accidentor death, serious illness. So
(25:44):
you experienced the ups anddowns with your spouse.
T. J. (25:48):
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So what about you? So you you
went on, got some training andyou had and have a career as
well. So kind of walk me throughthat post Debbie at age of 17.
Debbie (26:11):
Okay.
T. J. (26:13):
Post 17, same Debbie. Yeah. That sounds a little bit
better.
Debbie (26:22):
I went to college. I did not finish my bachelor's. I do
have an associate's in businessadministration. I have a
certificate in paralyticstudies. And I started out as a
(26:46):
paralegal and worked indifferent areas of law.
And
T. J. (26:53):
So you are an excellent researcher Attractive. And
finder of things, cases,documents, people. Run me
through just kind of quicklywhat a paralegal typical week
could look like.
Debbie (27:15):
Well, depending on which area of law. I started working
for a law firm that handledpersonal injury, workers'
compensation, and socialsecurity. Then I went to work
for an attorney who handledmainly real estate law. Kind of
(27:41):
boring, you know, it it wasokay. And I had a wonderful
attorney I worked.
And then Brian got married,moved to Memphis, and worked for
the general counsel of abrokerage firm there at the
(28:03):
time. And that's where I endedup getting my certification. And
then we went back to the Paducaharea and went to work for the
prosecutor in Paducah. And Ilove because we would, you know,
(28:26):
I'd have to talk to victims,witnesses, victims' family, the
officers, court advocates thatinvolve children. Paralegal job
was interesting there.
(28:47):
I would go to the trials, helpselect juries, which was
interesting. And I was overgrand jury. So but then, you
know, life wasn't happening.Children are coming online.
T. J. (29:11):
They do.
Debbie (29:11):
And then Brian entered the ministry. And so I ended up,
what I thought was gonna be atemporary position while I was
trying to get on with schooldistrict was secretary for the
Margaret Cumberland PresbyterianChurch.
T. J. (29:32):
Okay.
Debbie (29:33):
And I was there seven years.
T. J. (29:37):
Wow. So in the paralegal, you really had to develop and
sharpen the skills, your peopleskills, being able to
communicate with people, getinformation from them, maybe
even sometimes information theyweren't ready to reveal or
provide. Look at me. I'mmeasuring my words. You were
(29:59):
doing that earlier.
And yeah, you got to be really,really good at that or you won't
be a paralegal for very long.But I always imagined a
paralegal, like almost sort oflike an archeologist down in,
you know, the basement of acourthouse and or somewhere
(30:22):
searching for files, you know,that hadn't been discovered in
years or may not even exist andand finding figures and facts
that no one thought existed. Andin my mind, I just painted it,
or I do paint it as aninteresting vocation.
Debbie (30:45):
It definitely was. And it was really working,
especially for those familieswho were needing closure. I did
have an experience one day incourt where we had the trial, a
(31:08):
murderer. These two men hadmurdered a young man, and the
mother of the victim, you know,was able to get up and speak
during the second many days. Andshe was the strongest, precious
(31:32):
Christian woman I think I'veever seen.
She stood right there, toldthose two young that she forgave
him. God loved him. And shewould be praying for them while
they were.
T. J. (31:54):
Those would be hard words to say. Mhmm. And mean them.
Yeah.
Debbie (32:00):
And she did. Mhmm.
T. J. (32:07):
Debbie, you shifted gears, as you said, you know,
your husband responding to acall in ministry, your children
growing. And so you went fromthe paralegal, the legal world,
the world of the courts, to thethe world of the church. And you
(32:28):
served as office administratorat the Margaret Hainte
Cumberland Presbyterian Churchthere in Paducah. And I cut you
off. You said that you werethere for about seven years.
So let's let's talk about howyou're shifting into service
(32:48):
into the church and what thatlooked like for you. A different
kind of service and ministry inthe church.
Debbie (32:55):
It was different. But at same time, you know, I do in the
denomination, in the area,through either churches, through
Cumberland Presbyterian Women'sMinistry, or children's
(33:21):
activities. And that was veryhelpful to serve the Margaret
Church. They were wonderfulpeople. They loved me.
They loved my family. Brianfilled in as interim pastor a
(33:45):
few times while they were inbetween, and he was serving at
the Oakland CumberlandPresbyterian Church just outside
of Bodega.
T. J. (33:57):
Okay.
Debbie (33:58):
And they were just they were just like crazy. And got
really close of course.
T. J. (34:10):
Let's talk about your faith here. So you know, you
were in secular work, but itstill puts you around people
every day. But now you arearound, or at least on a regular
basis, dealing with church folkwho are the best people on the
planet and sometimes not alwaysthe best people on the planet.
(34:34):
So your faith. Did your faithdeepen during your time in
serving in a church in a very,very different level?
I mean, you were a staff memberof a church. So it was more than
just coming to worship or tosing in the choir or to be part
of women's group or the variousdifferent activities. You're
(34:56):
actually an employee of a localchurch.
Debbie (35:02):
I think it did. Like you said, it is different, but at
the same time, it's the same.
T. J. (35:14):
Same people. Same people.
Debbie (35:15):
People are people. You're gonna catch on good days
and bad days. You know, theywere not gonna agree with, you
know, exactly how you're notawarded something in a
newsletter, or you have a typoin a bulletin.
T. J. (35:39):
That's okay. Yeah. I didn't even think about that. So
what maybe Monday or Tuesday andwe're recording this on a Monday
night. So this may very wellbeen the day when you got a
phone call, there's a littlenote on your desk, when you come
in on Monday of the mistakesfound in the bulletin that you
(36:00):
had either typed or printed offor folded or maybe even all of
the above, you know, where thereare always those people that
will be able to to go the datewas left over from last week or
one digit was wrong and thenaming of the hymn or here, I'll
(36:21):
let you pick up.
Can probably come up with somereal doozies.
Debbie (36:25):
No, would a case when you had the bulletin on your
desk and the red circle.
T. J. (36:32):
Like you're being graded. Was
Debbie (36:36):
this person a retired teacher? Yeah,
T. J. (36:42):
sounds like you were being graded. Yeah, for sure.
What else did you draw from thatexperience and that service in
the church?
Debbie (36:55):
I learned about relationships more. Not just
with the people in the church,but also the denomination by
work. They're plus beinginvolved on the Presbyterian
level and with the Carmel andPresbyterian women's industry on
(37:23):
a regional level.
T. J. (37:25):
Yeah. That's that's right. Because, you know, I
guess the average the averageperson, you know, when we think
of church and describe church,we think of the just the kind of
the local context, thecongregation and the church
family that we're a part of.Right? Then and, you know,
(37:47):
there, that church, thatparticular church on that
particular street.
But with a spouse experiencing acall to ministry and then you
actually serving in a localchurch, you get exposed that,
hey, there are I mean, youalways know that there are other
churches, but there really areother churches, and here's how
(38:08):
you're connected to them. Andyou get kind of exposed to,
specifically for us thatPresbyterian, that
representative form of churchgovernment.
Debbie (38:21):
Well, and during my time, I also served as the
reporting clerk for ourPresbytery. Part of that time
was Regional Women's MinistryPresident.
T. J. (38:36):
Oh, okay. Well, I need to catch up with you. So you were
just, you were just blossomingand serving in every different
place that you could. So helpme. How did that fit in the
timeline of when you wereworking at the Margaret Hank
Church?
Were you were you alreadyinvolved in these other roles?
(38:59):
Or did they come during thatseven year time span?
Debbie (39:02):
It was during that seven year time span. Well, I became
the recording clerk probablyjust a few minutes after it
started working, Margaret Hain.
T. J. (39:15):
Okay. As we do as Cumberlands and as the church,
we find somebody with a skillset and the inability to say no,
and you just get plugged in alldifferent places.
Debbie (39:31):
You know, they always say, when you retire, you always
wonder how do you get everythingdone? And at this time, I look
you haven't retired yet, but Ilook back and I'm thinking, man,
I'm tired when I get home. Howdid I do what I did back then?
(39:54):
Of course I was younger.
T. J. (39:55):
Yeah, but still, okay, let's be realistic. So you have
a spouse who's returning toschool and then ultimately
graduates, but returning to Youhave how many children do you
have? Two? Three? I have two.
Two. So you have, at this time,two school age children. You're
(40:15):
working full time at a localchurch. You're active in an in
your own church. Right.
And and then active in women'sministry and then a recording
clerk. That would eat up allthose responsibilities would eat
up many hours of each day.
Debbie (40:33):
Then adding in a Cub Scout mom who volunteers as a
leader, a girls game leader.It's just, it was a lot.
T. J. (40:49):
I'm gonna throw your question back at you. How did
you do all of that?
Debbie (40:55):
I think it's because I knew what I had to do when it
was. And I just And
T. J. (41:04):
if it was really work, you probably would have been
tired. I mean, work or job as wewere talking about earlier, you
know, probably would feel like.I guess it didn't then.
Debbie (41:18):
Well, working at the Margaret Hanks Church, they were
always gracious to allow me towork church camp or, you know,
tend to feed home, things likethat.
T. J. (41:37):
When we were talking earlier, before this recording,
you told me that you now work inthe school system. So now we're
kind of moving up to present dayor closer to present day. So how
did you what do you do in theschool system and how did you
(42:00):
kind of get into that role inthat position?
Debbie (42:03):
Okay, currently, I'm an administrative assistant at the
Marshall Kennedy Board ofEducation in Bentonville. Is I'm
beginning my eighteenth schoolyear. I always wanted to be on
(42:25):
my kid's schedule when they bothgot into school. And, the
position had opened eventually.And as an instructional
assistant for special needs inthe preschool.
And so I went for a review, andthey asked me, what are you
(42:52):
going to tell the child who'shaving a first day in school,
having a tough day in nursing,and what would you say? And I
said, I'll say, this is my firstday too. I'm in trouble. Let's
(43:15):
just do this together. And I gotthe job.
T. J. (43:20):
So that first job, you said it was instructional
assistant? Is that correct?Okay. So kind of, kind of walk
me, you know, what is that? Whatdoes that Okay.
Debbie (43:33):
An instructional assistant is basically an
assistant teacher. But I workwith special needs students. So
I would and it was in preschoolsetting. And one of the children
I worked with had severaldisabilities and was pretty much
(44:00):
immobile. Got to help teach herhow to use the wheelchair for
the first one.
Using a little toggle switch.Ran over it once. That's okay.
Worked with a child withblindness and a child who had
(44:27):
cerebral palsy, But we wouldwork with them on
accommodations, and you find outthese children, they don't have
disabilities. They do have adisability.
We just have to figure out howto make everything for them.
T. J. (44:49):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And develop those communication
skills. Communication, as wewere talking about earlier,
there's many ways tocommunicate, daily life skills.
Then the sensitivity of thereare many communities within the
(45:11):
community of disability.
So it's a diverse mix ofbeautiful people and who have
beautiful gifts and differentneeds and being able to connect
in the ways that people need tobe connecting. Wonderful
(45:37):
community to work in for sure.Very rewarding and challenging.
Debbie (45:43):
It was challenging at times, but we all get frustrated
or have issues. A lot of thetimes kids will school and
people want to sometimes theybehave the way they do. But you
(46:07):
know if they had to sleep inthis night. You don't know if
the last time they had food intheir belly was at lunch at
school or if there was a problemin that home during the night
they didn't go to sleep. So
T. J. (46:30):
Thinking back on that period of your career, how did
your faith and how does yourfaith speak to, the role that
you were you were in at thetime, how you interacted with
the preschoolers and the otherstaff and the preschoolers
(46:53):
parents and caregivers.
Debbie (46:56):
You just love them. And you encourage them. And you show
you really care about thesechildren. With the preschoolers,
we would go a home visit a fewtimes And so you get to see
(47:18):
firsthand, you know, what theirhome is like. It's an eye out
there.
But the parents get to know you.You get to know the parents,
and, you know, you get to earntrust. And they or they did, you
(47:45):
know, you show that you wanttheir child.
T. J. (47:48):
Yeah. Yeah. Your role in the school system is different
today.
Debbie (47:57):
So,
T. J. (47:58):
let's talk about what you do now.
Debbie (48:00):
Well, I'm going to go back up. There was an
opportunity that opened up atour board office to be the
administrative assistant for thespecial education director. And
I thought, oh, I could help on ahigher level and use my office
(48:28):
administration and para skillsand interviewed that position.
And I've been at the boardoffice now since 2010. My roles
(48:48):
have changed over the years.
I still assist the specialeducation director, but also the
other director.
T. J. (48:59):
What's rewarding about this role?
Debbie (49:06):
Well, like I said, you get to help on a higher level.
Because you as the director, andthe director has things that he
needs to concentrate on or go tomeetings with issues or
(49:27):
whatever. And I can take care ofthe stuff that's in the office
on a daily basis.
T. J. (49:36):
And you serve more than one school in that that
particular role.
Debbie (49:40):
We have ten nine nine schools class of technology
school in our district. We havesix elementary, two middle
schools, and one high school.
T. J. (49:56):
Does each school have facilities and staff for people
or for students withintellectual disabilities?
Debbie (50:06):
Yes. We have amazing SPEDS. Our high school has a
program called RISE, R I S D,and it is just amazing to see
these young people learn lifeskills and just have fun and
(50:36):
learn and be loved. They cook.They learn how to wash and dry
clothes.
That it's amazing.
T. J. (50:49):
And you get to be a part of that. And Yes. In an
indirect, somewhat direct way. Adifferent much different than
when you were working in oneclassroom.
Debbie (51:03):
Well, I also work with we have occupational therapists.
We have a physical therapist. Wehave speech language
pathologist. We have an autismconsultant, a behavior
consultant, nursing staff, andschool psychologists that I work
(51:27):
with.
T. J. (51:28):
Okay. A lot of people. And a lot of those, each, I
guess each county and maybestate is different. So some of
those people would be outsideconsultants, but can come and
serve in the students in theschool system. And then some of
(51:49):
the lists that you of staff thatyou've mentioned would actually
be county or staff employees.
Correct?
Debbie (51:59):
We are now at the point we actually employ those people.
They're not contracted.
T. J. (52:07):
Oh, okay. Okay. So they don't work for an outside
consultant agency or or ahospital or physical therapy?
Okay.
Debbie (52:17):
No. They have different powers.
T. J. (52:19):
All right. Well, I feel half smart. I was in the
ballpark of Well, that's good.So that you can provide, I
guess, a level of consistency,maybe even longevity when it
comes to those staff. They havea tendency to stick around.
(52:45):
Alright. Debbie, we we've talkedabout your secular work, your
work in the church. Let's swingback around to the Cumberland
Presbyterian Church, and and youhave kind of a a very unique
insider's view of the CumberlandPresbyterian Church as a
(53:06):
denomination. You you wereintroduced to it in young
adulthood, And then kind oflater, a little bit later in
life, you end up being part of ashared ministry. And then you
have served the CumberlandPresbyterian Church in many,
many different levels.
(53:26):
So with that precursor, I'd loveto be able to hear your insight.
What are your observations,strengths, weaknesses, that you
see, you've experienced for theCumberland Presbyterian Church
or within the CumberlandPresbyterian Church? Pretend
(53:46):
that you're speaking to somebodythat's never even heard of this
denomination. What would youwant them to know? Good, bad,
ugly?
Debbie (53:57):
We are one big family. You have the good, bad, ugly
with any family or anyorganization. We're not anymore.
(54:17):
But one thing that I've alwaysliked about Cameron Church is
this sense of unity that we'vehad. There's there's a lot that
(54:42):
goes on in the world, but we, Ithink, pretty much just believe
that we have a mission to God,that we need to go out, and we
(55:04):
need to do his and that, youknow, they said it's
connectional.
They always said that. And Ialways felt unique because when
I was little, being at a Baptistchurch, you know, we didn't do
(55:28):
things really with other Baptistchurches in the area. But Carlin
Presbyterian churches, we'realways doing things together and
I love that. You know, there'ssome kind of little activity, a
(55:50):
special service or you're gonnahave Bethel come for everybody
gets invited, you know, fromthat area. You just feel that
connection, that family.
Mhmm. And that it's not justhere in The United States. We
(56:13):
are in 20 countries. And that'sjust amazing to me.
T. J. (56:19):
It is. It's baffling. Know, numerically, we may not be
a extremely large denomination.But we certainly have family to
use your use your word. We havefamily just scattered all over
(56:39):
the world and doing ministry.
Speaking of family, it didn'thave to be connected just to
actual family members, but whoare some of the people that
have, throughout the course ofyour life, really impacted your
faith, really helped you grow inyour relationship with God?
Debbie (57:06):
Well, of course, first family. My mom and dad were
always involved in church andtheir parents. I remember to my
dad's house, you know, to spendthe night and I can hear my
(57:28):
grandmother in the room everynight When I was lying in the
bed, she was in there readingher bible. She would read it out
loud, and then she would pray.My grandfather was a deacon in
the church and just they hadthis wonderful love.
(57:56):
And it was because theirmarriage was on God. And, you
know, they would get into alittle argument, of and my
grandfather would go out to hislittle woodshop, work a little
(58:17):
bit. My grandmother would bebest in the kitchen. And then my
grandfather would come in theback door, and he gets the white
finger chuff out of his pocket,And he waved in the air, like, I
surrendered. And my grandpa didlaugh.
And then they were fine.
T. J. (58:41):
That's funny.
Debbie (58:43):
But they just wonderful.
T. J. (58:45):
He waved the Yeah.
Debbie (58:51):
I don't know. But my dad, while I was working for
Margaret, I went throughpancreatic cancer. And he was
they found him, he's in thehospital, he's had his major
surgery And he was supposed tohave been driving his truck that
(59:20):
week to pull a work trailer forhis truck to go to New Orleans
and work with the people who hadbeen victims of Hurricane
Katrina. And he called some ofthe people in the church, and
(59:44):
they came to visit him in thehospital. And he gave his track
keys.
He said, I might not go, but mytrack didn't go. And so anyway,
T. J. (59:58):
I like that. They
Debbie (59:59):
brought back a picture. They printed of his truck and
trailer in front of church thatthey were held to build.
T. J. (01:00:08):
That's awesome. The truck was an extension of him. That's
awesome.
Debbie (01:00:14):
In a
T. J. (01:00:14):
good way. In a good way.
Debbie (01:00:15):
But and then Brian grandparents, of course. Mhmm.
His grandfather, she was justwonderful, wonderful wonderful
pastor's wife, and she told meshe said, now, Debbie, if you
(01:00:38):
don't remember anything,remember this. At church public,
don't volunteer to put the breadback into the loaf bag because
it won't go back in the way itcame out. He had a sense of
(01:01:04):
humor.
T. J. (01:01:05):
That's funny. Debbie, what did I leave out? What
question did I not ask that youthought that I might? What area
of your life and your faith didI miss that you want to share?
(01:01:27):
Such a dangerous question.
You could
Debbie (01:01:29):
really dangerous.
T. J. (01:01:30):
You could really take this in any direction.
Debbie (01:01:34):
Well, sometimes I think people, if they know, like, the
Christian pastor, They might actdifferently or treat you
(01:01:57):
differently. I remember workingin the school, and I mean I just
would say I'm a pastor's wifeyou know I didn't announce it
but one day one of the employeesin the school had found out she
came to me and she said I needto apologize to you. And I said,
(01:02:22):
for what? She said, I don'tknow. But I found out at the
pastor's mom, and I'm sure I'vesaid something that was
inappropriate.
I said, you're fine. I stillcan't serve. Know, we've we've
(01:02:43):
been through our school has beenthrough some bad We went through
a school shooting. This was in2018 and never forget that
(01:03:04):
thing. Then twenty one DecemberWe had the tornadoes that came
up through Tennessee and WesternKentucky and it devastated
several communities here in ourcommunity.
(01:03:26):
We lost 2,002. And I'm gratefulthat I'll let the community that
is very faith based, where wecan come together and be strong
(01:03:49):
for each other and lean on ourfaith. I don't know. We've been
through, personally, a lot ofadversity. Brandon, our son, he
(01:04:12):
went through a disease in hiships when he was was treated by
Shriners, and he's fine.
He teaches technical educationin Clarksville, Tennessee. And
(01:04:34):
Brian went through some seriousback surgeries, open heart
surgery, and some surgery. And,you know, just everything we've
been through, I can't be patientgoing through any of it without
(01:04:57):
God. And it just hurts my heartto know that there are people
out there who don't have him,don't have that, and they're
going through struggles. And Ijust can't imagine going through
(01:05:18):
anything without God.
You know, even when people aregoing through bereavement, if I
don't have that church thing inthe world, I just hurt. How
T. J. (01:05:37):
did you and how are you, Debbie? Going through these
experiences within yourcommunity and within your family
and not come out on the otherside not angry or bitter or
disillusioned because you wouldhave every right to to feel that
(01:06:02):
way, to be that way, to behavethat way, but you're not. How
come? What do you have thatothers do not? Well,
Debbie (01:06:18):
it doesn't mean I haven't struggled, you know,
when we have it. When Brian hadhis back surgeries and heart
surgery, that was during COVIDtime, like right before and
during. And so that was that wastough. Because the world is
(01:06:45):
different. You know, you didn'thave all that personal inner
relationship.
But
T. J. (01:06:53):
And things were changing day to day. They were. Least
week to week. Mhmm. Everybodywas trying to figure out what to
do.
And then you had that doublelayer of your own personal life
and family was changing day today.
Debbie (01:07:07):
Well, and we had my mother and at the time, Brian's
trying to help during COVID.Brian's is ill, and so we would
take, you know, weekends to gostay with to help keep him safe.
(01:07:34):
You know? Brian's peers and thefamilies helped. And but it I
just can't imagine without Godgoing through anything that
we've been But you just staystrong.
(01:07:56):
You read the bible. You pray alot. You know? And I try to play
Christian music. You know?
It's always on more and at hometoo. I just I don't know. I
(01:08:20):
can't imagine going throughwithout feeling that love,
peace, and that comfort thatonly he can
T. J. (01:08:30):
give. Yeah. And I think having those things also comes
with the overwhelming joy andneed to be able to share it with
others, whether they receive itor understand it or not, it's
(01:08:55):
still there for us to be zealousabout. This is who I could be,
or this is who I was. But thisis who I am and why.
I mean, that's an invitation. Itis. Invitations can be turned
(01:09:16):
away. But it can't be unless wejust invite people. There is no
invite.
Debbie (01:09:24):
That's true. And I've been writing. Hopefully, someday
I'll get it published aboutthese adversities that I've been
through so that you can helpothers.
T. J. (01:09:43):
That's awesome. Just that short period, not short, I'm
sure it felt like eternity, butthe last, what, eight years,
seven, eight, I guess we'regetting kind of close to ten
years of your life. Is that whatyou're focusing on? Or are you
(01:10:04):
have you expanded beyond justthe last ten years, this book
that you're writing or havewritten? If I'm pushing too
much, just say, you know, it's awork in progress.
Debbie (01:10:18):
I'm trying to think. No, it goes back further, really
throughout our ministry.
T. J. (01:10:28):
Do you have a title for it yet?
Debbie (01:10:31):
Playing around with it.
T. J. (01:10:33):
Okay.
Debbie (01:10:36):
Live. Let's see. I wrote it down just in case you said
T. J. (01:10:41):
Subject to change, but at the
Debbie (01:10:42):
moment Yes, subject to change.
T. J. (01:10:44):
Right. Okay.
Debbie (01:10:45):
But life's inconvenience is blessing in disguise.
T. J. (01:10:52):
Okay. Alright. It's kind of catchy.
Debbie (01:10:57):
Working on.
T. J. (01:10:59):
I like it. Debbie, thank you for giving me a couple hours
of your time. I hope it didn'tfeel like a couple hours.
Debbie (01:11:08):
No. Mean At all.
T. J. (01:11:09):
Since I I don't know how
Debbie (01:11:10):
Just like sitting in the living room talking.
T. J. (01:11:13):
That's awesome. Except we're one dimensional as we But
record this on thank you forsharing. This has given me the
opportunity to, well, get toknow you. We had a short phone
conversation in preparation forthis. Just kind of you were
feeling me out to see if this issomething that you wanted to do,
(01:11:35):
and I'm very grateful that youdid.
But it's given me a greatopportunity to just sit down
with you, be able to get to knowyou better, have a laugh with
you, but just hear of the thewonderful grace that God is has
bestowed upon you. It's changedyour life, and you invited me
in, and I appreciate it.
Debbie (01:11:55):
Well, thank you.
T. J. (01:11:57):
Thanks for listening to this episode of Cumberland Road.
After having this faithconversation with Debbie, I
found a poem that I feel isappropriate for her emphasis on
growing up in church and theimportance of church in one's
life. The poet is CatherinePulsifer, and this poem is
(01:12:21):
called A Grounding Place. In thestillness of the pews, hearts
find solace, a refuge fromlife's tumultuous flow. Church
stands as an anchor, a blessedgrace, where souls seek respite
(01:12:44):
and God's presence known. Forwithin these walls, whispers of
peace thrive, melodies of faithwhispering through the souls, A
sanctuary where weary spiritsrevive. Church binds us close to
our purposeful goals. FromSunday's embrace to each week,
(01:13:08):
anew church, a grounding placeguiding us through. Thanks for
listening.
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