Dennis Croslin - Life, Death, & Being Born Again - Cumberland Road

Episode Transcript
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T.J. (00:03):
You are listening to the Cumberland Road, where we
explore faith journeys. I'm yourhost, TJ Malinoski. This time, I
am in conversation with DennisCroslin. Dennis is a Cumberland
Presbyterian minister servingthe Union Hill Church in Middle

(00:27):
Tennessee. This is the churchthat Dennis grew up in, and he
shares his journey of how he isgiving back to the faith
community that nurtured him.Dennis is also a funeral
director, and we begin ourconversation about life, death,

(00:50):
and being born again. Enjoy thisfaith conversation with Dennis
Croslin.
Hey, Dennis. Thank you forjoining me on the podcast. I
thought we could open up with,your bivocational work. So you

(01:11):
serve a congregation, we'll getto that in in a few minutes. But
you also have another vocationAnd, so share that with me and
then we can talk about thechallenges of being bivocational
and, balancing your work offaith, your your own faith, your
family life and all thecomplexities that come with

(01:33):
having a busy life, living abusy life.

Dennis (01:36):
Yeah. Well, I am a licensed funeral director and
embalmer, and I have been I'vebeen licensed since January, but
I've been working at the funeralhome since September of 2019.
Before that, I had worked infactories my whole adult life,

(01:56):
and I've been pastoring, thechurch that I'm at for 11 years.
So, when I would leave here at 7o'clock in the morning, I would
have to be completely dedicatedto that job until I got home at
5 o'clock in the afternoon.Mhmm.
And, and so I was looking forsomething with more flexibility.

(02:17):
And I actually this funeralhome, it's a half a mile from my
house and we're in a smallcommunity. There's only, you
know, 1500 people in the town ofGordonsville, where I live. But,
actually, not the my boss, theone that owns a funeral home, he
grew up in our church. But Iworked there when I was in high

(02:38):
school, mowing, the cemeteriesand things.
We stayed busy mowing all thetime. And I talked to them about
something that's more flexiblebecause we have hardened the the
phrase, but we have a lot ofdead time. You know, we may not
be.

T.J. (02:58):
It's a funny pun.

Dennis (02:59):
Yeah. But we're not we're not as busy as a lot of
funeral homes. Mhmm. We have 3locations. And between those 3
locations, we'll have a 100calls a year.
And so, and especially wherecremations are increasing,
there's less to do with that.And so, you know, we might go 2
weeks and not have anything. Andso the majority of my studying

(03:21):
really is done while I'm at thefuneral home. But I also have
the freedom, like tomorrow at10:30, I'll be at the local
senior citizen center,delivering a message to them.
And so I have that flexibilityto to do those things, to go
visit if I need to, if I wannacome home and eat lunch or mow
my heart.
And it just, there's a lot offlexibility there that I

(03:42):
wouldn't have at another job.And and that's why I'm in this,
I'm in this profession and andworking for the funeral home
that I do. Because other funeralhomes, I would not have that
flexibility. And so it justit's, it it's beneficial in that
way because of the flexibility.And and I decided a couple years

(04:06):
ago to pursue getting licensed,which is probably one of the
hardest things I've ever done inmy life is is being licensed,
yeah, as an embalmer because Ihad to get another associate's
degree.
And, then you have to take thenational board test. And
studying for that wasridiculous. And the test is

(04:30):
ridiculous. And, that, I don't Idon't know that I've ever been
challenged that muchacademically. You know, anatomy
and things of that nature isjust I'd I'd never I'd never
been challenged like thatbefore.

(04:51):
But, you know, it's veryrewarding. It it also opens
opportunities. You know, youhave a lot of families that come
in that they may not have apastor.

T.J. (04:59):
Mhmm.

Dennis (04:59):
And so, I have that opportunity and I preach a lot
of those funerals as well. Yeah.It's hard to preach a funeral
when you don't know somebody. SoI was telling somebody the other
day, I just I present the gospeland leave them with that with
the promises of God and hopeit's in Jesus Christ and and

(05:21):
hope that they follow-up withthat. But, you know, that's what
I do.
Like I said, I've been infactory life for a long time and
out the place I used to work, Iwas there 15 years. And so, I
gave up quite a bit to to freeup myself for my ministry. And

(05:42):
and that's and that's basicallywhy I did it. If if, I tell
people if I'm not working forthe funeral home that I work
for, I'm not in the funeralbusiness because I wouldn't have
that flexibility to do thethings I'm able to do now.

T.J. (05:59):
Dennis, there are so many questions I wanna ask you about,
the funeral home and theeducation process that we can
make this well, the wholepodcast. Some of some of the
questions I can't resist though.So one question I could think of
is the test to become adirector. So that isn't just

(06:20):
paperwork or on computer. Isthat also hands on and what does
that look like?

Dennis (06:25):
So the it's 2 different things. Director and embalmer
are are 2 differentcertifications. Okay.

T.J. (06:31):
And

Dennis (06:31):
so and I have both of them. Now, so the director, I I
had to attend John a GuptonCollege, in in which is in
Nashville. And you have to forthe director aspect of it, you
have to sit down with families.You've got to record yourself
making videos, doing these mock,funeral arrangements and and

(06:55):
things of that nature. You'vegot to know marketing.
You've got to know accounting.And and accounting got that was
another thing that was just verychallenging to me. I've always
considered myself a smart fella.But, accounting would I just
could not what's the purpose ofthis? But and so doing that, but

(07:15):
then also, on the embalming sideof it, I had to go to Nashville
to a mortuary.
I had record that I helped with10, you know, and record that I
helped with 10, you know, andwrite down, you know, what

(07:35):
fluids you use and, you know,the shape the body was in. It
just all kinds of differentstuff that, you know, clinicals
is what they call them. Sosomebody that's in nursing, you
know, might be more familiar.And I don't think it's as as
strange as somebody that's innursing, but you had to get that
hands on experience.

T.J. (07:55):
Yeah. Kinda walk me through this is from my own
curiosity. So in terms ofpreparing the body, I don't even
know if that's the rightterminology. But you have you
have to prepare the body, butthen you also have to measure
the fluids, right, to be able tojudge based upon, you know,

(08:18):
stature or weight or size or orwhatever. So there there's math
in that.
Correct?

Dennis (08:24):
Mhmm. Yes. And and so there's a formula that when
you're going through school, youuse it more than when you're out
of school because, you know,when you're out, just like,
alright. I'll use this bottle,mix with a gallon, and that'd be
done. But when you're in school,you to know the actual
percentage of the of theembalming solution that you have

(08:45):
and and all that.
But typically, a rule of thumbthat I learned in school, but
most embalmers don't follow, isone gallon of solution. So
that's basically embalming fluidand water for every £50 of body
weight. Now, you know, the jobcan be done with less or with

(09:07):
more. And it is all body typesare different. If if they have a
lot of swelling, that changesthings.
If they're emaciated, thatchanges things. If they're
obese, that changes things. Andso it's just basically, it's,
it's something you gain byexperience. Like, my boss can
look at them. He's like,alright.
We need this, this, this, andthis. And I'm sitting here,

(09:29):
don't you wanna calculate thisout?

T.J. (09:35):
I've noticed over the years that the turnaround in
terms of preparing the body, thetime has increased. And has has
the preparation of the body beenstreamlined in the last 15, 20
years? Or is it just me payingattention?

Dennis (09:54):
Well, basically, families are different. So used
to, and I think this is what youwere going with. Used to, like,
when the funeral home received adeath call, they'd go pick up
the body, and the family wouldgo to the funeral home with them
and sit there and wait. And assoon as they got the body
prepared, they'd get them outand they'd start having

(10:16):
visitation. And now, basically,you know, we'll pick up we'll
pick up the deceased, and thefamily may come in the next day

T.J. (10:28):
Mhmm.

Dennis (10:28):
To make arrangements. And then, well, then we'll have
them out the next day afterthat. And so, it's not that
anything is changed within thelast 50 years. It's just, the
the needs of the families andwhat they want are different.
And let's face it too, withcremation increasing like it

(10:50):
has, we get, we're getting abouta third of our calls or people
wanting to be cremated with noservice or nothing.
You know? And, you know, in inbeing in this line of work, you
know, there's pluses andminuses. That's what the family
wants. But I think it also, inpart of my studies, and it made

(11:11):
this made sense to me having aviewing and visitation to add
some closure to the family thatthey might not have otherwise.
And and so I think it may be,and this is just me speaking, it
may lead to maybe some of theissues people have with death
nowadays, because, you know,they may have loved them that
dies, and they don't receivethat closure.

(11:33):
And and so and then me being apastor as well, because people
say, well, how can you deal withdeath like that every day? I
said, well, you know, I knowthat whoever I'm dealing with,
that's just a shell. And I don'tsee how someone who's not born
again can be in this line ofwork. I mean, I know there's

(11:54):
people that are, but, it ittruly, when you deal with death
every day, that it it changesyou a little bit.

T.J. (12:03):
I've noticed serving in ministry in different parts that
there are traditions when itcomes to death and funeral and
actual funeral services. Opencasket, closed casket, viewings,
casket being closed and thenreopened after a service. Mhmm.

(12:27):
Have you noticed that, there'sit varies based upon where you
live or what community thatyou're a part of. Where does
that originate?
Is that just tradition? Is theremeaning behind those? What what
do you think?

Dennis (12:40):
It it's just local traditions like so we're in
Middle Tennessee, but if we havea funeral for somebody from East
Tennessee, and I think you'reoriginally from East Tennessee,
the other funerals were atnight. And so if if we bury
somebody from East Tennessee,the funeral will be at night,
and then we'll bury him the nextday. And and so that's that's

(13:01):
different. You, you know, herewhen we go to the graveyard, the
whole family stays there. Now,and they'll, you know,
fellowship and and talk to eachother, but they'll stay there
while, the grave is being filledwhere you go to other places.
They're like, they cut out andthey don't wanna see it, you

(13:23):
know, or or it it's just andlike I said, it's just local
traditions. It's just whatpeople are used to and and what
they've done, and like that witheverything.

T.J. (13:33):
Yeah. That's right. I have seen. I've been part of both
where if there is a graveside,and even that's changing as
well, people will scatter, assoon as that prayer is over, but
others will either observe andsometimes even participate, I've
seen, in the filling of thegrave. Alright.

(13:56):
Now, a lighter question, evenmaybe a silly question. I have
never seen a dirty hearse. Kindof like a fire engine. Mhmm. So
what's the meaning behind thereit's always been a clean car.
How do you keep those carscleaned?

Dennis (14:15):
Washing them all the time. That's part of what I have
to do.

T.J. (14:19):
Okay. How often do you wash a car a week? I've never
seen one dirty.

Dennis (14:25):
Well, the thing is it it depends. So, like, the cemetery
that we typically go to is noteven a half a mile down the
road. So, you know, a good dryday, you know, it don't get
dirty. We'll put it back in thegarage, and it'd be ready for
the next time. But if it rainsor if it gets super dry, like,

(14:45):
if it's been real dry here for awhile, and if it's super dry and
we've got the hearse out gettingready for funeral, people are
mowing the yard and this, that,and other, and all kinds of just
dust gets on it.
And so, it's basically how youI'll make a judgment call is,
you know, does it need washingor does it not? Sometimes I'll
just rinse it off and then dryit off, and then sometimes I'll

(15:07):
give it a complete washing.

T.J. (15:09):
Okay.

Dennis (15:09):
You know, it just and it's it it goes back to
traditions in the funeralbusiness. So things are getting
a little more lax in a lot ofways. You get more into urban
areas and, you know, you'll goto a funeral and they may not
wear a tie. The funeraldirectors may not. Mhmm.
To where my boss, being ruraland old school, you know, we're

(15:33):
wearing a dark suit, we gotmatching ties, we've got a clean
hearse, you know, all thosethings. Yeah. You know, even,
you know, I've learned that, youknow, there's people, like, when
they go make a we call themhouse calls when someone dies at
home. Mhmm. You know, there'ssome funeral homes, like,
they'll wear a polo like this,but we'll we'll change.

(15:54):
We'll put on a shirt and tie anda, a coat and and and looked
looked like the typicalundertaker.

T.J. (16:05):
Alright. Being a long time resident of where you are, when
you were a minister first andnow you're a funeral director
and a minister, What do youthink the message is when people
see you? Have you thought aboutthat before? Is he coming is he
coming to, talk about death ormake funeral arrangements or is

(16:29):
he making a pastoral call? Is heis it a church invite?
Have you ever given that anythought? Because you're a long
time resident.

Dennis (16:36):
Yeah. So, I've never really thought about that
because, you know, I've beenpastoring for 11 years, and I'm
43 years old now. And so, therethere was 32 years that that
wasn't part of my Okay.

T.J. (16:54):
So you have a representation prior to Yeah.
Calling the ministry and thefuneral director.

Dennis (17:01):
Oh, wow. So, you know, in being the the small town that
it is, I've been highly involvedwith the youth sports. I've I've
well, I've coached. I have 8kids, and I've coached just I
think just about every one ofthem in some shape, form, or
fashion in some kind of sport atsome point in their life. And

(17:26):
so, you know, that's that's beena lot.
You know, like like I told you,we just got back from North
Carolina. My daughter is playingin that softball tournament. And
so, you know, the, the pastoralpart of it has been fairly
recent. Now, being in thecompute the community, there's,

(17:47):
you know, people that I knowthat they may reach out with
questions about certain thingssometimes or and even about the
funeral home. It's basically theit's, it's gotten to the point,
at least I feel like it's like,you know, if you know somebody
in a certain position, you canask him a question.
Hey. I can ask him about lifeand death. You know? True. True.

(18:07):
And so, and I get those. I I'llhave people contact me and say,
hey. I I need to make some preneed arrangements on my
grandparents or, you know, or,hey. I've read this in the
bible. What can you tell meabout it?
It's you know, it's but I alsohey. I wanna sign my son up for

(18:28):
baseball. What can you help mewith?

T.J. (18:30):
Oh, man. Dennis, you are a utility player. You're just able
to to wear many hats in in yourarea.

Dennis (18:38):
Well, it's what's the price jack of all trades, master
of none.

T.J. (18:44):
And 8 children. I did not know that.

Dennis (18:46):
Yeah. My wife had 3 kids when we got married and then
we've had 5 more since.

T.J. (18:54):
You are a busy man.

Dennis (18:56):
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They, they range from ages of 34
to 12.

T.J. (19:05):
There's never a dull moment then. That's wonderful.
Never. Never. Wonderful.
Man, you really, have to keepyour mind spinning because you
have to speak to each childdifferently because because
they're different, first of all.But the age factor, you know,

(19:26):
you have adults, you haveteenage and preteen. Mhmm. You
know, how we interact with eachother depends on age and
circumstance.

Dennis (19:36):
Yeah. And then the the oldest 2, they have their own
children now as well. So, youknow, and it's it's kinda funny.
So with the different ages ofthe kids, so my 2 daughters,
they have a nephew who's olderthan them. So

T.J. (19:55):
It's amazing. It's a beautiful thing, isn't it? Yeah.
Having big families. Yeah.

Dennis (20:00):
Oh, I I love it. I'll I will never forget, when I first
come under care of Presbyterian,and and, of course, my family
was big then. So because thatwas I've been ordained or I've
been, I've I've been ordained 7years, but I've been pastoring
11. And so it was, like, 2012when I come into Cary

(20:21):
Presbyterian. So I had most ofthe kids.
I had one daughter that was bornin 2012, and, a minister stood
up at Presbyterian when theywere examining me. And he said,
is there harmony? I said, whatdo you mean? He said, is there
harmony in your house? I said,well, there better be.
And but we've we've made itwork. People have asked me for

(20:43):
years how we've done it and Isaid, well, you know, after the
first 3 or 4, the rest aregravy.

T.J. (20:50):
Do you come from a big family?

Dennis (20:53):
Not necessarily. I have 2 older brothers and a younger
sister. Mhmm. And, so it's nottoo extremely large. And my 2
older brothers, they're quite abit older than than us.
Me and my sister, there's 2years between us, but my oldest
brother is 12 years older thanme, and he's a half brother. So

(21:15):
when I was in kindergarten, hewas graduating. Okay. And then
he went and lived with his dadfor a while in Georgia, and then
my other brother, he's 7 yearsolder than me. And so, you know,
he's I was getting at that age,and he's starting to get into
high school and all that, andhe's doing his own thing.
And so it was, just basically meand my sister for a lot of it.

(21:38):
And my mom had one brother, mydad had 2 brothers. So there's
nothing really humongous. Now mywife, she's the oldest of 6. And
so on that side of the family,it's it's rather large.

T.J. (21:53):
Yeah. Did you grow up? Were you one of those families
that got up on Sunday morningand piled into the car and went
to church? Or was that Sundaymorning routine different for
you? What was that like?

Dennis (22:10):
Well, so my parents divorced when I was 11 or 12.

T.J. (22:15):
Mhmm.

Dennis (22:15):
And I don't really and it's typical in a lot of famous.
I don't really remember my dadgoing to church much, you know,
but my mom was always there.And, you know, she's one of our
piano players now at our church.Wow. But, you know, it was I I
won't say that it was somethingthat was always, hey.

(22:38):
This is what we're doing. We'regoing to church. Because, I
mean, there was times when I wasa kid that and being a kid is
how I was. Hey. I don't wanna goto church.
I wanna go to the lake with mydad, and there was times I did
that. But then there was alsotimes that I took it upon myself
that, you know, so we lived amile from the church. So I'd
walk to church a lot of times.And then when I got into high

(23:00):
school and I lived with my dad,I still I made it a point I
would go to church most mostSundays. You know, and there was
no requirement or or anythinglike that.
I just I just went. And and soit wasn't it wasn't like we win
as a whole family. But I'vealways, for the most part, win.

T.J. (23:26):
What was it we'll go back to around the age 12, 13. What
was drawing you to church?Because I mean, I I can list off
the things that would draw youto the lake or to the outdoors.

Dennis (23:40):
Well, it it it was it was something that we just
always done for the most part,but, you know, and I my friends
were there. I had a had a lot ofat that time, our church was
quite a bit larger than what itis now. And, had a lot of
friends there, and so there wasa lot of social aspect to it,

(24:02):
which, you know, is like that ina lot of churches. But there
were people, and this carried oninto adulthood. I guess looking
at some of the people that,would take an interest.
And so I can use the example of,one of our elders, and he's also
our song leader. He was mySunday school teacher when I was

(24:23):
around that age. And I told himhe he tried and tried to teach
me and and some of the otherones, you know, but it just, is
one of those things like, hey.We're gonna start we're gonna go
through the whole bible. We'regonna read the whole bible, and
and and and I don't think we gotout of Genesis.
Just because, like, me and theother boy in the class would

(24:44):
just is like, did you read thisweek? No. I god.

T.J. (24:51):
We were talking off mic, about the the differences
between, a church invite and arelationship with Jesus Christ.
There's a difference betweenchurch attendance and I think
discipleship, growing in thefaith.

Dennis (25:09):
Absolutely.

T.J. (25:10):
So looking back, we're we're still kind of in your
teenage years. Any pivotalmoments, that fed into a
profession of faith, thatinfluenced you, that tugged on
you, that solidified or at leasta starting point for, having

(25:31):
Jesus Christ as your lord andsavior?

Dennis (25:35):
Well, so when I was I guess I was about 12 or 13 in in
that time frame. Actually, Iwent to a tent revival. And, the
first night, I remember aninvitation was given, and I went
down. And and then when it wasover, there were some, they

(25:57):
asked to come to the back andand and they did that. And I
just went back to my seat.
Well, I went back the nextnight, and I went back there
with them. And and it they didwhat you see in a lot of
meetings like that is, hey. Theyhad this card and build it out,
and on such and such day, I Igave my heart to Christ. And but
that was it. You know, there wasat a at a at a place like that,

(26:22):
there was no discipleship tofollow-up on.
But I do I do remember, youknow, as I got older and I got
and I progressed, you know, theconviction of sin was greater
than it ever had been. But andthen that culminated, the moment

(26:42):
that I can sit here and say,hey, that was it. It was when I
was 28 years old. And like Isaid, I feel like I was born
again before then just becauseof the conviction of sin Mhmm.
That I had.
Because I I knew there was forme to profess Christ there, it
had to look different than whatI was doing. But when I was 28,

(27:04):
I had me and my wife had beenout of church a couple of years,
and I went back to church. Andand in that time while we was
married, we went to acharismatic church that my older
brother went to. And, that's awhole other story in itself.
But, I decided to go back to myown church where I'm pastoring

(27:28):
now.
And and again, that goes back tothe people that took an interest
in me. Because when I wouldvisit, I I knew they was
interested in me and what I wasdoing and and how I was doing.
And so as I got involved, I waslike, you know what? I'm gonna
read the Bible for myself. Idon't wanna have to depend on

(27:49):
people or or or just go by whatpeople tell me.
And I'm I'm reading the Bible,Genesis to Revelation, and and
I'm sitting here and it justhits me while I'm reading the
law. And and as I'm reading thelaw and I'm looking at these
things, it's like, I can't dothis. I mean and and it's and

(28:11):
it's stuff like, you know, whena woman is menstruating, she
can't be touched at all. Or, youknow, if a a man can't shave his
head unless he's in the morning,he's not supposed to shave the
points of his beard. And and Iremember I'm sitting here here
in on the couch and my wife wassitting at the computer and I'm
reading this stuff to her.

(28:32):
I was like and that's when ithit me is, you know, I've been
in church my whole life. I'vebeen told Jesus Christ died for
my sins my whole life. And itwas at that point that I
realized now I know why. BecauseI I can't I can't keep the law.
I can't save myself.

(28:54):
He had to come and die to dosomething I couldn't do.

T.J. (28:57):
Mhmm.

Dennis (28:58):
And, and from that point on, it's, that's, you know, it's
been that's I guess, I would saythat's really my launching
point. And and that's why, I'm avery when people say they don't
like to read the old testament,I said maybe you need to look at

(29:19):
it a little bit. And then fromthat point on, that's something
I do every year to I'll I'llread the Bible from Genesis to
Revelation. And sometimes I doit twice in a year. It depends
on what's going on.
But, so it's been about, I don'tknow, 15 times or 16 or so that
I've I've read the Bible all theway through. And, of course, you

(29:43):
you you pick up on differentstuff every every time you read
it.

T.J. (29:47):
Mhmm. Yeah. Absolutely. How do you break it up in in
reading through the Bible in ayear or within a 12 month period
or less? Do you break it up bychapters or sections?
What were what's been workingfor you?

Dennis (30:02):
So typically, what I do and this is how I explain it to
people because it people can beintimidated when Mhmm. You're
talking about reading the wholebible. And so I tell him, so
look, if you read 10 chapters aday, and on average, you're
looking at 30 minutes, you'llyou'll have it read in 4 months
Mhmm. Which is you know, that'snot a bad, you know, goal. Now

(30:27):
there's been times I read it onetime in 31 days.
Now, I need to preface that too.I had had odor surgery. So I was
off of work. This is when Istill worked in a factory. So I
hadn't I had nothing to do allday except breathe my bop.
So I was

T.J. (30:44):
You were you were literally off your feet.

Dennis (30:47):
Yeah. So, that was, and so that's that's 40 chapters a
day is what I was reading then.And so you can you can break it
up. However, you know, if youread 20 chapters a day, you're
gonna read it in 2 months. Youknow, but 10 chapters a day is
is not an unattainable deal, andand you can read it in 4 months.

(31:11):
And personally, I like readingit in a shorter span. You know,
I know some people read it in ayear, which comes down to about
3 chapters a day. But I I likethe fact that, you know, if
you're reading if you're readingmore at a time, you read the
prophecies in Isaiah, you know,it's not that long. You're
reading the fulfillment of thoseprophecies in the gospels. And

(31:32):
so and it comes together likethat.
And I've read it chronologicallyas well. And I've read all all
kinds of different translations.I've read the King James, the
ESV, the CSB, the NASB, thecommon English Bible, the New
King James. So, you know, youyou get a lot of different

(31:53):
things that way as well.

T.J. (31:55):
Mhmm. You were talking about that pivotal moment or a
pivotal moment. We all have morethan 1. But looking at the law,
realizing that you, through yourphysical and mental abilities,
cannot fulfill the law and theirreliance on Jesus. Talk about

(32:17):
the little changes or maybe theywere big changes and
transformations that beganhappening in the way that you
lived from that moment on?

Dennis (32:27):
Well, a lot of it was being truly born again. My
desires changed. I used to Iused back in my previous life, I
guess, I used I drank quite abit. I got around quite a bit.
And, since then, it's, you know,that's that's been easy.

(32:48):
I mean, I hadn't drank sinceand, you know, not that not that
and I'll say this. I mean, Idon't think you we're not
teetotalers by no means. But,I've always looked at it this
way is, you know, you don'twanna be this stumbling block to
somebody else. And so, if thewrong person sees me having a

(33:11):
beer or whatever, then thatcould affect them. And so I I
just haven't done that.
But the my my dependence uponthe Lord and and things like
just I'll use this as an exampleof where I live. I have a tree
in the backyard and a big limbsplit out of it. And and, I

(33:35):
mean, I'm I'm talking about alimb that was half the tree
nearby it. I mean, it it wasabout 2 and a half foot in
diameter, and and it split out,and it's still up in the tree.
And I I did not have the toolsor the wherewithal to get it
down.
I have young kids and I, youknow, it was a hazard. And I

(33:56):
came in the house after fightingwith it, trying to cut what I
could, and my wife had made tunasalad. And I sat down and I
fixed and ate my tuna salad andended up saying my blessing. And
my wife made the comment, shesaid, that's a long blessing. I
said, I was asking for help withthat tree.
And so I thought when I got donewith my sandwich, I go outside

(34:18):
and I was like, you know what,I'm gonna mow a little bit and
think about this. And my yard is2 and a half acres, and it's
long. So it's it's narrow andlong. So as I'm making this trip
around, I get to the road, andmy house is a good bit off the
road. And I get down to theroad, and there's this neighbor
across the street that I haven'ttalked to since I've lived

(34:38):
there.
I've seen him out and about. Welived there 6 years. And he
stopped me, and he said, youneed help with that tree? I
said, yes. As a matter of fact,I do.
And and and he helped me. He hada little tractor and he pulled
the limb down and everything.And and really it did hit me
till later on, my wife's toldme, she said, you you did ask

(35:00):
for help with that tree fromGod. And and I was like, oh,
wow. You know, and just and it'sand it's things like that and
and noticing, you know, how Godworks all around us, in ways
that you don't know.
I'm a I'm a full full believerin being dependent on his
providence. You know, and that'sand that kinda goes into, you

(35:22):
know, why I'm in this job that Ihave right now because I took I
gave up a lot of money a year tochange careers. But, you know,
when Jesus says, you know, lookat the lilies of the field, You
know, look at the sparrows. Lookat the birds. How, you know, how
I provide food for them.

(35:43):
I wanna provide for my own. Andso that was one of the things.
It's like, you know what? If I'mgonna if I'm gonna preach this,
I gotta trust it. Right?
And, and so, and it just wentfrom there. But, you know, just
seeing, seeing how God works ineverything, I, I say quite a

(36:03):
bit. There's no I don't believethere's any such thing as
coincidences for the most part.I mean, I guess some things are,
but, but most time, it's justGod's providence.

T.J. (36:14):
Looking back across your life, who are some of the people
that have influenced anddeepened your faith, your
relationships with your wife,your children, your, gosh, your
education to your vocations. Whoare some of those people? And

(36:39):
and, yeah, just talk about maybewhere they've impacted you in in
special and positive ways.

Dennis (36:47):
So, I mentioned him a little while ago as one of the
elders at our church, was alsoone of my Sunday school
teachers. Mhmm. The

T.J. (36:56):
man of patience who never was able to get through Genesis.

Dennis (37:00):
Yeah. Yeah. Not because of him. Start. Yeah.
I don't know that we everstarted Exodus, But, you know,
he he he tried really hard, andand I wasn't very receptive at
that age. But, you know, like Isaid, he tried. And there's

(37:21):
another man who's an elder atour church and he's passed away
now. When I went back, just howwelcoming he he was in and
that's, you know, that's andmaybe that's God's providence
again. That's why I'm at thechurch that I'm at now.
And again, I was raised in thatchurch, but we had visited and
had attended other places. Mhmm.You know, and then, you know,

(37:47):
being in the line of work thatI'm in and working at the
funeral home, I talked to a lotof pastors, from a lot of
different traditions. And aroundhere in such a rural setting,
there's not, like growing up, Ivisited different churches. And
for the most part, I didn't seea hill of beans worth the
difference in any of them atthat time.
Now I know the differences. But,you know, you know, if if we

(38:13):
have a love for Jesus and areborn again, we have that
commonality. And and I'm able tofellowship with them. I was
going through Romans, on ourWednesday night bible study not
too long ago. And, you know,Romans 14 and 15, and it and it
I pointed out to mycongregation.
I said, look, for the most part,the differences that we have

(38:36):
from other denominations in ourarea are not enough keep us from
fellowshipping with them witheach other. Now there's some
that, you know, there is, butfor the most part, there's not.
And but yet, you know, there'sthere's groups that, you know,
I've I've seen many that they'lltalk more about who they dis

(38:57):
fellowship with, or, you know,then Yeah. What they have in
common.

T.J. (39:02):
Mhmm.

Dennis (39:03):
So I have those conversations and and those, you
know, I love I I love talkingBible with with anybody. I love
talking about Jesus, and andjust seeing what God's doing. It
it warms my heart, you know,when when people have that joy
and are able to talk about it.And then and, of course, you

(39:24):
know, I listen to, a lot ofdifferent preachers. I have,
like, I'll start every day.
I'll listen to RC Scrull andJohn MacArthur. I listened to a
guy named Mike Favarez out inCalifornia. In times past, I've
listened to a lot of Tony Evans.I've listened to a lot of Adrian
Rogers. You know?

(39:45):
And and so I've listened to alot of different people, and and
that helps as well. And thenjust to look, you know, closer
to my circle, my wife is is isabout as faithful as you can
get. She's constantly, you know,I say that I've read my Bible

(40:07):
probably 14, 15 times from frontto back. She's She started way
after me, but she constantlyreads it. So what I'll do is
I'll read it at the 1st of theyear.
When I get done, I'm readingother things. And she just,
she's like, I don't have timefor those other things. I'm just
reading the Bible. And, and soshe, I mean, she's constant. And

(40:30):
I I would dare say that she'sread through it all the way 20
times in the past, you know, 18years.
But just, and the change in herlife as well because, you know,
both of us, you know, beforeChrist, you know, we have our
flaws and and, she's one she'sworked hard to heal the flesh,

(40:53):
so to speak, and and and and bedifferent. And and and just, you
know, and just what you see indifferent people through
different days. And, you know,sometimes my kids do something
that amazes me, with theirfaith. Now there's other times
it makes me scratch my head andwanna beat my head up against

(41:14):
the wall. But, you know, that'sthat's part of a I I because I
look at myself, and and I knowthat people looked at me and
wanted to pull their hair out.
And, but, and then there's, youknow, there's some that when
they found out that I'm apastor, like, Dennis is a

(41:36):
pastor. Because there was, youknow, in full disclosure, I used
to be known more, especiallywhen I was in high school, for
the parties I threw, not for thebible that I need.

T.J. (41:51):
Well, you could have different kinds of parties now.

Dennis (41:55):
Oh, well, we have a lot of birthday parties.

T.J. (41:57):
Alright. Alright.

Dennis (41:59):
Well, that that maybe kids, you have a lot of birthday
parties.

T.J. (42:02):
That's true. That's true. I think, I think sometimes we
use the word fellowship prettyloosely, and in ways, they're
they're parties in a good way ina good way.

Dennis (42:12):
Yeah. But and and, you know, and this is something that
I've talked to our church abouttoo. And a lot of times and not
that it's inherently wrong, buta lot of times, like, say we get
there before Sunday school andand we're talking, and a lot of
times the fellowship is notcentered as much on God. I mean,

(42:33):
that's why we're theresupposedly. But, you know, we'll
be talking about the draft orthis basketball game or this,
that, and other.
And and and I'll be honest, andand that goes back to one of the
things that's different about mylife. I used to spend all day
Saturday and Sunday duringfootball season watching
football. And I'll watch I'llwatch UT on Saturdays if if I if

(42:54):
I can. If I can, it's no bigdeal. And then I'll watch the
Titans on Sunday.
But if I can, it's no big deal.And and that's something that
god is, god has relieved me ofthat infatuation, so to speak.

T.J. (43:10):
Well, priorities have changed.

Dennis (43:13):
Oh, absolutely.

T.J. (43:14):
And your interest has Yeah. Changed.

Dennis (43:17):
Yeah. But and and and I look at this way too is is a lot
of times, I'll spend Saturday,getting ready for Sunday. And
what I mean by that is, youknow, because not that I'm
trying to cram my sermon in orthe Sunday night sermon in or
anything like that, but, itit'll be on my mind all day.

(43:42):
And, you know, granted, there'llbe things that, you know, come
up in the meantime, and I'lldeal with. But, I I try to do
that.
Not to say I don't do otherthings, but, you know, I I use
this example, my my daughters.So out of my children, the
oldest 6 are all boys and theyoungest 2 are the girls. And,

(44:05):
you know, especially during thesummer, there's one night they
have a bedtime and that'sSaturday night, you know, to to
be prepared for Sunday morning.And and and not that not that we
should, you know, again, goingback to that Roman study where
Paul said, hey. Some peopleesteem one day higher than

(44:25):
everything else and othersesteem every day alike.
You know, I would look at everyday as a holy day, but it's the
day that we've set asidetogether as a church family

T.J. (44:34):
Mhmm.

Dennis (44:35):
And to worship. And when you look at the purpose of
assembling together is toencourage each other, to edify
one another, to strengthen thebody of Christ. And, you know,
we need to take it serious and,there's too many times and and,
you know, maybe every pastor isfrustrated by this, but, you

(44:58):
know, you see people that put ahalf hearted effort into the
assembly. You know, and becausewe have to remember we're there,
we're to glorify God and butwe're to build up each other.
We're to edify one another, toencourage one another as much as
we see the day approaching.
Because I use that, I use thatscripture in Hebrews 1025 quite

(45:20):
a bit. You know, don't forsakethis emblem of yourselves. But
it's not to forsake this emblemof yourselves to hear a sermon.
You know, that's not mentionedthere. So that's we're we're
there to encourage and edify oneanother, and that's what it
says.
And and I guess, you know, kindof on the side note, that's one

(45:40):
thing what I hate about, whathas happened since COVID, is
like you'll ask somebody, well,what did you go to church today?
Yeah. I watched the sermon onlive streams. That's I mean,
it's good. It's good that youwatch a sermon, but, and it's
not that, you know, they havefears and and, you know, of

(46:01):
catching a virus, but they justhas made it to where people can
watch a sermon from their couch,and that's their attendance of
church when it the fellowshipand the meeting together and
encouraging one another needs tohappen.
And so, you know, maybe in asense, over the years too,
pastors have been elevated, youknow, which believe me, I'm a

(46:24):
firm believer in preaching andgiving a sermon and and being
there and teaching and and and,as I used the example of Paul
says when he told the Ephesianelders, he said, look, I I I I
gave you the whole counsel ofGod. And, so, you know, I I do
my best to do that, but, youknow, we're there to encourage

(46:45):
and and strengthen the church,strengthen the body of Christ.
And you do that face to face forthe most part.

T.J. (46:52):
Yeah. Yeah. Community is the gathering of us together.
And ideally, that means, youknow, in person if possible.
There's something about thescreen.
I mean, we're using it now, butthere's that sense of there's a
distance as opposed to ussitting, across the table from

(47:15):
each other. This works. It justdoesn't replace the true
fellowship of sharing the sameroom, sharing the same space.

Dennis (47:26):
Yeah. You know, technology is wonderful because
it does make possible thingsthat wasn't possible before.

T.J. (47:33):
Right.

Dennis (47:33):
But it it's it's not like if we were able to meet
together and to shake eachother's hand or, you know, and
and and things of that nature.So, you know, we're able to do
something we probably wouldn'thave been able to do. But, when
when you can, it's always betterto, you know, meet together, and

(47:56):
and I think that's one thingthat's been forsaken maybe in
the church today. There's justit's too much to the screen when
it doesn't have to be. That'sthat's the big thing.

T.J. (48:05):
Right. I wanna go back to the exercise of reading the
scriptures and reading throughthe Bible. If stranger off the
street came up to you and said,hey, what does that book say?
Just give me give it to me inbrief. What would you share?

(48:30):
How would you articulate such aa thick, rich text, that has
some most impactful good news inworld history.

Dennis (48:49):
Well and so, you mentioned the good news and and
I always wanted to understandtruly what good news is. You
have to know the bad news. Andso the bad news is is we're
fallen creatures in desperateneed of a savior. We can't save

(49:10):
ourselves. You know, our sindemands a sacrifice.
We're sinful creatures. We sinagainst a holy God, and and to
take that bad news, but thengive the good news. Or or going
back to the bad news, say, inGenesis, you know, Adam and Eve
fail, and and and we'refollowing creation from that.

(49:30):
And we have the law that God hasshown us our need for a savior.
And and it's kinda likeGalatians 3 says, the law was
our school master to bring us toChrist.
And so when we read the law, wefind how inadequate we are or
how sinful we are. And God inhis love, in his mercy, in his

(49:54):
providence, in hisforeknowledge, in in his grace
has provided that sacrificeneeded. When our sin demands a
sacrifice, he demand he providedthat in Jesus Christ. And so
from Genesis to Revelation, youhave our fall, our sin, our need
for a savior, the prophecy ofthat savior. You have the savior

(50:17):
coming and fulfilling thatprophecy and dying for our sins
on the cross in our place.
And then you have the spread ofthe church from that point on,
from acts into the epistles ofPaul and of James and of Peter,
and then we are looking to theconsummation of all things. And
when when all is said and doneand the the return of Christ, we

(50:41):
see all these things, the hope.So you have you have the
condemnation at the beginning,but you also have hope at the
beginning. As what's, you know,in Genesis 315, you know, as as
some would call theprotoevangel, the the first
evangelistic prophecy, and wherethe the seed of Eve would bruise

(51:02):
Satan's head, and you have that.And that's the hope.
It starts there, and it goes onand it's fulfilled in Christ and
the gospels, and it's gonna beconsummated completely, at the
end. And and I would say, sofrom Genesis to Revelation, it
is a book of hope. It it itshows you why you may think you

(51:24):
have no hope. How, you know, woeis me as as Peter told Christ
when when he pulled up the hallof fishes, he said, depart from
me for I'm a sinful man. But inGod's grace, you know, he sent
Christ, to reconcile us to God.

(51:44):
In in our sin, we we are madeenemies of God. We are enemies
of God. But one of my favoritepassages is Romans 5, and while
we were yet enemies, Christ diedfor us. And, and so you got the
bad news. Look, you're a sinfulcreature in need of a savior,
but the good news is God sentthat savior.

T.J. (52:05):
Well, I think that was probably about 1 third of what
your sermon could be this comingSunday.

Dennis (52:12):
Well, so I'm preaching through the book of the gospel
of John. So I'm an expositorypreacher and I'm starting John
chapter 3. So, basically, it'sgonna be you must be born again.
So that's part of it. Yeah.

T.J. (52:28):
Alright, Dennis. Walk me through the timeline and your
experience of entering in to theministry of the word and the
sacraments. Sound like you weremoving towards your life is
coming together, yourrelationships are coming
together, you've got a family,You've got good work. Why would

(52:49):
you muck it up by entering intothe ministry? I say that tongue
in cheek.
But

Dennis (52:55):
Right. So what happened let's see. I guess it was around
it's between say, I said I was28 years old. So about 2,009. I
went back to church and and Ijust I'd become more active than
I ever have.
And in 20 10, I was an orordained as an elder in our

(53:19):
church, and started teachingSunday school, teaching the
youth, to just becominginvolved. And my wife asked me
one night, she said, have youbeen called to preach? And and
it was one of those things thatI wasn't sure about at the time.
And I said, no. And she said,good.

(53:40):
I don't wanna be married to apreacher. And, now remember,
she's different person than shewas then, Because we were still,
you know, God was working on us,both of us pretty heavily at
that time. And the pastor thatwas at our church at the time,
say and I still do this now. Wehave Sunday school at 10. I get

(54:03):
there at like 9.
And and so I was there early andthe pastor was living in the
parsonage or the manse, at thattime. And he said, he just flat
out asked me, have you beencalled to preach? And I really
don't remember what my answer tohim was at that time. It might

(54:25):
have been like, I don't know.I'm not sure.
I don't know. Mhmm. But backthen, we used to have a revival
meeting. It wasinterdenominational. So, you
know, the the Baptists and theMethodists and whoever else, you
know, basically, most everybodybut the church of Christ would

(54:47):
meet together and and have acommunity revival.
And there was one night at theinvitation, the the man who was
preaching, he said, hey, I needall the pastors to come down
here. And he said, even ifyou've even if you've just been
called to preach, and that'swhen I I felt the Lord speak to

(55:08):
me, in in my spirit and say, dosomething. And so that's when I
acknowledged it. And so I and Idon't I guess that's probably
that was somewhere between 2010and 2012. Because 2012, I come
under the care of the presbyteryand started going to pass.

(55:31):
And and then also with that, tofulfill the pass requirements, I
needed an associate's degree. SoI went back to college. I'd had,
I probably had basically a halfa year's worth of credits. So I
went back to college. So I wentback to college.
I was going to pass. And in2013, something happened that

(55:58):
the pastor left the church, andand I was absent I'd only went
to been in the pause program fora year, and I didn't even take a
full load, because it took me 5years to get through it. But I
was approached about being thepastor, and I'm like, well, I've

(56:19):
been called to preach. I'm goingthrough this program. I guess
so.
Now and I look back asphysically and mentally and
experience wise, I I wasn'tready. But, that was in 2013.
And that and even that waseventful in itself because in

(56:40):
April of 2013, I preached inpresbytery. Well, in May May 14,
2013, I had an accident where Igot my leg caught in a garden
tiller. And that was the thatwas the week that I became the
pastor of the church too.
So for I had this for 6 weeks, Ihad this splint from the whole

(57:04):
length of my leg. And so I'msitting in a bar chair that, you
know, that kinda swivels. It'sgot a back to it at the pulpit,
and I'm putting my leg inanother bar chair. And and so
that was my first 6 weeks aspastor of that church.

T.J. (57:22):
Wow.

Dennis (57:23):
That's how I was delivering the messages. And and
so and then come July, I justgot the cast off. I went to
pass. Mhmm. Then right after Igot home with that, the my leg
was infected, and it's infectedso bad as down to the bone.
And I just went back to workfor, like, a week. It it was

(57:45):
like nothing. And so, so it gotinfected and it was so deep into
the bone, They couldn't justgive me antibiotics. They had to
give me a PICC line. So I wasout of work for that.
And so that was that was all,you know, ran at the same time,
and and it's kinda my wife kindalaughs about it now because I

(58:06):
you know, we're we are busypeople, everybody generally is.
But I was super busy at thattime, and and she'd been asking
God that I'd spend more time athome. Well, I got my leg caught
in the garden tiller and itanswered her prayer. So

T.J. (58:21):
Oh, man. That's a lot going on in a short period of
time. You you had said that,Dennis. How did you maintain
sanity? How did you not getdiscouraged?
How did you not get overwhelmed?Because it would have been
really easy to okay. I'm gonnaput I have to put something

(58:44):
aside so that I can heal, I canfocus. What what was your
mindset? What was what were youthinking?

Dennis (58:53):
Well, I feel like the Lord has has blessed me in a
sense that I don't getdiscouraged very easily. Now I
will say that there was times,the main the biggest time I got
discouraged and all that is whenit got infected. And that was it
was like, good grief. I just gotover this, and here it comes

(59:14):
again. Mhmm.
And because I had to go in andopen me back up and do what's
called a debridement and cleanall that infection out. And and
then also too, there was somenerve damage. And so I I had
what was called drop foot, so Icouldn't raise my foot up. I
could push it down. But and Iand, you know, now granted

(59:36):
there's people that have, youknow, more disability than what
I had with that.
But I mean, I would break asweat trying to move my pinky
toe. And, you know, because justtrying now luckily, and and by
God's grace, that come back. Andso, you know, now I have full
movement in it, but, you know, Ididn't I didn't get discouraged

(59:56):
except for that point. But Ialways I I I look at it this way
is you look at people in thefaith that had gone before us.
You know, like use example ofPaul the apostle.
You know, people quotePhilippians 413 all the time,
you know, for football, forsports, or whatever, for any

(01:00:20):
accomplishment, so to speak.But, you know, Paul is writing
that, you know, imprisoned inRome, and his, I can do all
things through Christ whostrengthens me, as he can go
through these times where itlooks like it's dark. It looks
like everybody else in the worldis against you, but you still

(01:00:41):
have Christ. And so, you know,granted, I was, you know, I I
was coming along in my faithand, the discouragement so much
wasn't there. I've always, Iguess, like I said, by God's
grace that I've been able toroll with the punches for this,
so to speak.

T.J. (01:01:00):
Yeah.

Dennis (01:01:01):
But, still, I had a lot of people around. There was
money issues, at the time. So Iwent you know, I'm working full
time and I get injured. Now wehad short term disability
insurance, so that was 2 thirdsof my pay. Well, you know, I had
at that time, like, you know, 6,7, 8 miles to feed at home, and

(01:01:24):
we've always been a singleincome family.
And and so once you when yourpaycheck is is cut down that
much, and then it it dragged onso long that that ended, and so
I had to go to long termdisability. And that took a lot
for that to get started. And so,you know, our church, some of

(01:01:46):
our elders, some other churches,you know, chipped in at what
whether it's money, whether it'sfood, whether it's taking the
kids here or there, you know,that all, that help came from
all sides. And so that that wasvery appreciative. You know,

(01:02:07):
sometimes I I don't think backon it enough, to be honest with
you.
But, to look back and just seehow much, you know, people
helped at that time. And becauseI always tell people, look, as a
Christian, you're never meant todo it in a vacuum. You're never

(01:02:28):
meant to do it by yourself, andand you definitely need those
people around you. And that wasa time that was like it for
sure.

T.J. (01:02:36):
Yeah. Was it hard to receive help in the forms that
it came to you? Was itdifficult?

Dennis (01:02:46):
No. No. I I'm I'm all about, I'm all about free stuff
in a sense, you know. You'regonna bring me some free food.
I'm gonna eat it.
But it it wasn't so hardbecause, you know, the Lord had
had dealt with some pride issues

T.J. (01:03:06):
Mhmm.

Dennis (01:03:06):
And still. You know? I can even say recently, the Lord
has dealt with some pride issueswith me. And, and and so he he
has a way of humbleness and, youknow, all I could be is, you
know, there was some Sundaymornings that a pastor that I
know, you know, he was on hisway to his church and he stopped

(01:03:27):
by our house because I couldn'tleave the house at that time. He
stopped by and and, you know,gave us some money, from their
church.
And it was just, it's just beingappreciative. Mhmm. Because I I
feel like I had a goodunderstanding of why they were
doing it, and I knew I neededit. And, you know, we, you know,

(01:03:51):
we try to do our church ormyself, try to do the same thing
if we see other people. BecauseI can say, hey.
I have been there, you know, andI needed I needed that help.
And, you know, you look atagain, going back to the apostle
Paul is you know, he needed thathelp too. You know, he he tells

(01:04:14):
I think it was Timothy. He told,hey, when you come bring my
cloak. It's cold.
I I I need it. You know? And andso you you need that. We all
need that.

T.J. (01:04:28):
I think, Christians exhibit their faith well when in
in those moments of need, inthose moments of giving, and
seeking out those moments.Because they're not always
visible in terms of giving. I'mnot talking about just money,

(01:04:50):
but giving of time, giving ofyourselves, giving of a
listening ear. Those that'swhere some of the we were
talking about wealth off mic. Ithink there's a wealth of that
among, our brothers and sistersin Mhmm.
Christ.

Dennis (01:05:10):
Absolutely.

T.J. (01:05:11):
You've, essentially, you've been a lifelong
Cumberland Presbyterian, andMhmm. You grew up in church. Now
you are one of the leaders in inthe church looking at where we
are now as a denomination andalso into the future of the
denomination, the CumberlandPresbyterian Church that we can

(01:05:33):
become. What what are some ofthe ideas that you have, hopes
that you may have for us as abody?

Dennis (01:05:44):
Well, in you know, that's that's a I will say it's
a tricky question because, I'llbe honest and speak for myself.
There's been some discouragementfor me, in the past few years.
And and I would say my hope isthat, you know, as a

(01:06:08):
denomination, I I'd almost saygo back to the roots, so to
speak. I feel like that there'sand and it's not just us, but a
lot of churches today have letthe world be the influence on
them more so than theminfluencing the world. And, you

(01:06:29):
know, I understand that peoplehave their own convictions and
things of that nature, but, youknow, I I've been, I I've lost
some sleep, and I have, beenheartbroken over some things

(01:06:50):
that have been said, that havewent on, and, you know, I was
and I was right at the forefrontof some of the debate, well, you
know, over the amendments andand things of of that nature,
especially in our presbytery.
And, you know, it was one ofthose things that I got to a

(01:07:11):
point that I just I don't knowif I can fight anymore. You
know? And and so that's and it'shard to it's hard to fellowship
on some things. And and so, youknow, to say my hope for the

(01:07:33):
denomination is, I I wouldalmost say, and I'm looking at
our church to do this as well.I've been studying the
reformation quite a bit, and andmaybe a a a new reformation.
And and the thing is, when areformation happens is you're

(01:07:56):
basically from what I see is,like, you know, in you go back
to the original, you know, andand and that's what I'm I'm
kinda thinking, at least likefor our church. I'm not even
wanting to go back to I'mlooking into singing the Psalms.
You know, I've I've looked atsome Psalm hymn books and so I'm
like, you know, that's whatJesus say, you know, and and and

(01:08:20):
going back to that. And sothat's basically what I look at
the hope for our church. I mean,you you wanna you wanna move
forward, but sometimes you haveto, if you get too far away from
the original, you need to goback and and reset, so to speak.
And, you know, the denomination,I think, may need to do that.

(01:08:44):
And because from what I've seenin the past few years is and and
I wonder about this. I don'tknow I don't know that it
survives from some things I'veseen. You know, and and I I've
to be honest, I've come to termswith that. I'm in a church that

(01:09:08):
I have been in my whole life.
I told you my great grandfatherwas ordained an elder there in
1914, and and I'm satisfied thatI have relatives that go back
even further than that. And, youknow, that's that's not easy for
me, but, you know, it's it'sit's kinda basically I'm

(01:09:34):
preparing myself for how thingsneed to happen or what we need
to do as a church or myself as apastor and and and go from
there.

T.J. (01:09:44):
I think it probably has always been that way. In terms
of tomorrow, I don't know whattomorrow will bring. I have the
year and the now and how I carryI'm speaking individually here.
How I carry myself in the hereand the now may inform and will

(01:10:09):
inform tomorrow if it's there.You broaden that out a bit to
community of faith like theCumberland Presbyterian Church.
The challenge of being able tolook inward and look in the past
and look forward, I guess from aphysical point of view, that's

(01:10:30):
impossible to do. But thatdoesn't mean that we don't do
each of those maybe in turnbecause each inform, well, the
end, the future. And I thinkthat's a challenge that each of
us can face both individually,but going back we you'd

(01:10:52):
mentioned the word assembly, youknow, and and gathering together
and and fellowship. And I likethe word community, how much
stronger that is when we dothese things together, even if
we're not terribly excited aboutsome of the companies that we
keep. Yeah.
You know, being able to do thattogether, knowing the importance

(01:11:17):
of sharing that good news is theof the highest priority. And
maybe not what my plans oragendas or goals may be, but it
is that kingdom building and thekingdom is being built through
the sharing of the good news.

Dennis (01:11:38):
Yeah. And and that's where, you know, yes, we're a
connectional church, but, youknow, I have to I have to look
at too. You know, there'sthere's a lot of people that I
have to stand in front of everyweek, you know, 3 times a week.

(01:11:58):
And and to encourage them to goout, you know, and I and I try
to put this in every every timewe meet. It's like, hey, we are
to go out and share the gospel.
You know, the great commissionwas just not for ordained
clergy. And and so I have tolook at, you know, and maybe

(01:12:21):
some people may disagree withthis, but when I look at my role
as a local pastor, thatsupersedes, the the denomination
as a whole, if that makes sense.

T.J. (01:12:40):
Well, it's what's before you daily. The you know, this is
your Yes. This is the innercircle, but there are other
circles that you are involved inas well that may not just be
Cumberland Presbyterian. It'sjust the community, your your
other vocation. You have thatthere's other circles of

(01:13:02):
Christians.
There your circles of influence.That phrase is used sometimes.
And so but you have to beginsomewhere, but that somewhere
doesn't stop just with that onecircle, unless we lived in a
cave somewhere, you know, orremote island. Yeah.

Dennis (01:13:21):
And I think and I think, you know, even looking at the
great commission, you know, youstart at a centralized point and
work your way out. And so,growing that circle, so to
speak. And so regardless, youknow, looking at, say, going
back to the bigger part of thecircle and the denomination,
regardless of what happens withthe denomination, you know, my

(01:13:43):
role doesn't change. You know,and so I use I use example too,
you know, to maybe put apolitical spin on it. You know,
people get hung up on who winsthe office of president, and
I've talked to people and, hey.
You need to vote for thisperson. And I said, look,

(01:14:04):
regardless of who wins, my role,my responsibility to preach the
gospel is not gonna change. Nowthe context that that happens
and the pressures from withinand without may vary and may be
different, But my role is stillnot gonna change. And when and
even so looking at the politicalelections, Look, the whoever

(01:14:28):
gets elected mayor of Gorgevilleaffects my life more than who
gets elected president of theUnited States. And so, you know,
that's the stuff that's rightthere is what matters the most
and you work out from there.
And so looking at thedenomination again, you know,
even regardless of what myopinions are of the denomination

(01:14:51):
and the direction it's going orwhat have you, I still, I have
to teach and preach the word toa number of people each week,
and that doesn't change.

T.J. (01:15:02):
Yeah. I think our language is important too. I think, I a
year over the years, myselfincluded, when we talk about
like for Cumberland Presbyterianspecifically, we'll we'll say
they in reference to presbyteryor, you know, they in the

(01:15:22):
denomination. Mhmm. And notrecognizing that, well, they,
Murfreesboro Presbytery, iswell, that's me because that's
where, you know, the the churchis part of that presbytery and
my membership is in thatpresbytery.
Not just Murfreesboro, but any.And I think we do, kind of sever

(01:15:44):
unconsciously, maybeconsciously, but unconsciously,
like that connectional aspect oflike, oh, wait. Yeah. I can be
disappointed in how a a meetinggoes or the length of the
meeting or worship service orwhatever. But that's still me.
And I think that's important tokeep in mind as well, as in

(01:16:05):
there's a sense ofresponsibility, that I have,
that I am a part of mypresbytery. Even when I wanted
to stince myself, I'm still apart of it. And, and that that I
have responsibility in that aswell. Anyway, it's just an

(01:16:27):
observation that I've noticedover the long years, not like
currently or yesterday oranything like that, is we have
this tendency to, go well, theydid that or or, they're not like
us, they and us. And reallywe're all kind of this in the
same pot most of the timeanyway.

Dennis (01:16:47):
Well, and and I think that comes, from both sides,
actually. You know, because likemy you know, our church is a
smaller church, and the closestthe other closest CP church to
us is, like, 20 miles away.Yeah. And so there's always been

(01:17:10):
that distance. And, you know,for you know, you can feel like
at a smaller church, maybepresbytery forgets about you or
loses sight of you, and and thatcreates

T.J. (01:17:23):
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Dennis (01:17:24):
And that that helps that. Now

T.J. (01:17:27):
And then then you got churches that are in the city or
in a more, suburban or urbanarea and then, you know, maybe
you're a part of a church that'sin a more rural setting. Yeah.
That they and us I mean, there'sso many factors that come into
it. It's it's the geography.It's it's, the makeup of the
different churches.

(01:17:49):
It's worship practices. It couldit could be the division of a
highway. They're on the otherside of the highway than we are,
you know, on I40.

Dennis (01:17:59):
And it and it's like it's like anything. There's a
lot of lines of demarcation. Youknow, you take even in
ministers, right or wrong, youknow, there's, you know, ones
that may have went to seminaryor have their doctorate, then
you got the guys that went topass or or there's any and even

(01:18:20):
even in some presbyteries, youhave folks that just went to
past, don't even have anassociate's degree, don't have
any kinda other undergraduatestuff. You know, it's it's
dependent on the presbytery. Andso there's, you know, there's
lines of of demarcation allabout it.
And, you know, I always go backbecause we've had these

(01:18:40):
discussions and, you know, inour church and I've had them
with other people. And, youknow, I'm I'm not one that says
you have to do this because Idid it. You know, you know, try
to be gracious and such. Buteither way, you know, God is not

(01:19:01):
a respecter of persons. And andI lean on that.
And I also lean on Philippians 3when when Paul is talking about
all his earthly accomplishmentsas a Pharisee. Use some pretty
colorful language and juststraight out calls it dumb.

(01:19:22):
That, it it when you reallythink about that, it's it could
cause you to, you know, takenotice. Yeah. You know?

T.J. (01:19:30):
Yeah. The education, the differences of, you know, where
people went to school or howthey went school, when they went
to school. I've forgotten allabout that. That's that's very
true in our denomination. And Idon't know if there's any like
resolution.
Maybe if there is, the firststep would be is in the

(01:19:53):
awareness that we do it insteadof they do it or us. Yeah. You
know, that it's just somethingthat we do. I mean, we do it in
other settings as well, sports,and maybe even within our own
families. Well, you know, theyaren't gonna come to
Thanksgiving.

Dennis (01:20:13):
It it it basically, it it distances you from that. We
actually had a discussion in asession meeting not too long
ago. Somebody said, well, I'llthey said, what was it? They
said, we'll do like this formerelder used to do. They said, you
know, when they had a complaintor something that need to be

(01:20:34):
done or something Yeah.
They say

T.J. (01:20:37):
Yeah.

Dennis (01:20:37):
And and maybe not putting a name to it or maybe
it's even coming from them. Theysay it, but, you know, I agree
with them or yeah.

T.J. (01:20:46):
Yeah.

Dennis (01:20:47):
We we do that, I don't know, maybe it it distances
ourselves from what we perceiveas problems. The problems are on
them, not us.

T.J. (01:20:57):
I think where we live too influences it as well. The the
southern niceties, sometimes notknown not so nice. But instead
of just being blunt and open,you know, Dennis offended me.
Well, you know, he, you know,just he put that distance, you
know, a little bit where itsoftens it a bit, or or we put

(01:21:20):
an apology on the front end butthen connect it with the
conjunction of but or however.Yeah.
Mhmm. Yeah. I don't think wesolved anything, Dennis. But at
least we talked about it. I likeasking guests about, books and,

(01:21:43):
music and movies that, you'recurrently watching or reading or
have heard or something in thepast that you think may help
inform other people's faith orencourage other people's
Christian faith?

Dennis (01:22:00):
Well, one thing that has helped me here recently is I've
gotten to where I'm listening tothe Psalms and singing the
Psalms. And and believe it youknow, and and a lot of people
may not know there's artists outthere that they'll put the
Psalms to music. And the churchhas been singing the Psalms

(01:22:21):
forever. You know, since, youknow, that's why the Psalms were
written. And, and that'ssomething that we've lost sight
of.
And and I've been telling thepeople at my church, and there's
people at our church that comefrom a lot of different
traditions and backgrounds.

T.J. (01:22:36):
Mhmm.

Dennis (01:22:37):
And and especially a lot of those, you know, they say the
Psalm Psalm 23 at a funeral orsomething, and that's it. You
know? But they were for muchmore than that. And so one thing
for me is is I've been listeningto the Psalms. There's a guy
named Brian Sabe.
He pastors a church out inOgden, Utah. And he puts on I

(01:22:59):
think he's even got, like, amusic degree, but he puts a lot
of the songs to music and hasdifferent albums, and and that's
been beneficial to me. And thenlisten to other arrangements
because, you know, I just boughta hymn book that has, like, I
think it's like 400 andsomething different arrangements
for all 100 and 50 Psalms. Mhmm.Yeah.

(01:23:20):
And some of them are familiar,like, you know, some of them or
at least one of them is set tothe tune of amazing grace or
some might be set to, like, harpthe herald angels sing. So it's
not something that you're goinginto blindly a lot of times.
Mhmm. But just, you know,singing singing the songs that

(01:23:43):
God meant for us to sing, youknow, and and how in Telossians
and in other places, you know,speaking to each other with
Psalms and hymns and spiritualsongs. You know, and and when
you look at that, it says, hey,that's how we are to communicate
with each other in the church isthrough these ways.
And so that's something that hashelped me in in my own faith.

(01:24:06):
And then I I read a lot. And so,right now, I just actually
started reading The Holiness ofGod by RC Sproul. And I read I
read a lot of of differentpeople and from, you know, you
know, I've read a lot of AdrianRogers, but I've also read a lot
of RC Sproul. I've read some dJames Kennedy, and and most of

(01:24:30):
them conservative writers.
But, you know, some are Baptist,some are Presbyterian, some are
dispensation, some arecovenantal. And, so I read a lot
of it, but those have helped mea lot a lot. But then also
gotten into, looking more intothe Puritans. You know, they I

(01:24:52):
feel like they get a bad rap alot of times with, the witch
trials and things. And, youknow, not to to say that was
okay, but some of theirwritings, and how they spoke of
God, how they spoke of Christ,and how they spoke of faith, and
and then even the things thatthey had to sacrifice, you know,

(01:25:17):
this you know, some of the thefirst European settlers here
were Puritans looking forfreedom of religion.
But then you look at some thatwas that were in that group
that, you know, people that wereburned at the stake for
translating the Bible intoEnglish. You know, and it's

(01:25:38):
just, those kind of things arevery humbling. I actually just
bought a book yesterday that itit chronicles 4 4 missionaries.
So, Robert Mary McShane is oneof them, and I've gone blank

(01:26:03):
now. I don't know who the other3 were.
But just, you know, I alsobought a a biography on Jonathan
Edwards. And looking at thesemen of faith and people of faith
that had come before us, it'svery humbling to me. You know, I
read of John Calvin not too longago that he preached every

(01:26:24):
morning in Geneva. And and I'mand I'm sitting here thinking, I
was like, man, me doing 3services a week, people think
that's a lot. Mhmm.
You know? You know, I I wasreading, and and and it might
have been Calvin in Geneva or itmight have been Whitfield in in
England. But one of them istalking about at 5:30 in the

(01:26:47):
morning, the townspeople wouldbe walking towards the chapel
with their torches, you know,ready to hear somebody preach.
And and sometimes it'd be justlike a devotion, but start their
day with assembling over theteaching of the word of God. And
and I sit here and I'm thinking,okay.

(01:27:07):
How can I implement somethinglike that here? You know, I I
can say, hey. I'll be at thechurch 6 o'clock in the morning
if anybody will stop by. Youknow? But looking at their
dedication And and I look atsome of those folks and and what
they you know, I'm 43 now, and Istill consider myself relatively

(01:27:31):
young.
But when you look at, like,Calvin wrote a lot of the
institutes of the Christianreligion, like, he was like 28.
And I'm just sitting herethinking, man, what have I done?
You know? And, you know, and andseeing things like they would
preach every morning and and andand and looking at Calvin, he's

(01:27:53):
known for his expositorypreaching, and and I attempt to
be an expositor. You know, andthen, seeing people like Charles
Spurgeon and and the thingsthat, you know, you read his
sermons, and it it takes just toread one of his sermons, and I'm
a fast reader.
It takes me, like, 45 minutes toget through it, but he would

(01:28:17):
hold people's attention for thatlong, and he's considered the
prince of preachers. And and I'mlike, how can I get people to
pay attention for 15 minutes?You know, but just looking at
some of these people and, youknow, just in the past, and and
there's too many to name. Youknow, you get you know, I
mentioned Calvin and alluded toWycliffe and, looking at some of

(01:28:41):
the Puritans. You know, RichardBaxter is, he he wrote a book
called the reformed pastor thatI read a few months ago that
helped me immensely, but it alsoshamed me immensely, because,
you know, we look at oursociety, we're and we alluded to
it in my own life, but we'rejust so stinking busy.

(01:29:03):
And you look at these people,and they were truly, you know,
truly dedicated to the gospel. Ithink it was, I heard a quote by
DL Moody not too long ago. Itsaid, you know, what can one man
do if he's completely given overto the Holy Spirit? And he said,
I wanna be that man. Mhmm.

(01:29:24):
And and so that's, looking atthose people, like I said,
looking back at at those from,like, around the reformation and
even before, and then get tomore contemporary with Martin
Moody, who is a little morerecent, or people like Jim
Elliot and, you know, are areyou one of the first Christian

(01:29:46):
biographies I read was by amissionary named John Patton
that was on the island of NewHerberty's amongst some
cannibals. Mhmm. You know?Buried some of his family
members and had to guard thegrave to keep them from digging
her up, but yet he was preachingthe gospel to him. You know, so,
looking at what people havegiven up and and gaining

(01:30:14):
motivation from that.
And and I I actually had tothink about this too. I mean, I
don't wanna idolize them toomuch, but I have to look at the
reason they were doing what theywere doing. Mhmm. And that's
because of the Lord JesusChrist. And so I've gotten into
reading those biographies,whether it be people that was
prominent in the reformation orthe Puritan.

(01:30:38):
You know, those, I tell peopleis like some of these quotes
that come out from, you know,whether it's John Bunyan or,
Thomas Brooks or John Owen orRichard Baxter or Charles
Spurgeon. I'm like, I just wishI could think like that and talk
like that. And, you know,because you you see all I see
all these quotes from CharlesSpurgeon all the time that, you

(01:31:02):
know, I was like, I I wish Icould've put that to words. I
wish I could've said it that wayor John Owen or or so many
others. And and there's apodcast I listened to that
Stephen Lawson does, and he'stalking about, many people in
the faith.
And I I can't remember the nameof the the podcast right off
hand. But, he talks about peoplelike Calvin or Whitfield and or

(01:31:27):
John Owen and talks about theirlife and what they did. And
it's, very inspiring, and not somuch from them, but just the
Lord that they serve and and andwhat they were able to do.
Because you can go back to thethe, the passage in John, you
know, they I think they went toPhilip, and it was the Greeks,

(01:31:49):
and they said, sirs, we wouldsee Jesus. And, you know, I've
seen a lot of quotes that, youknow, when a pastor finishes a
sermon, he shouldn't be wantingthem to say, you know, what a
great preacher, what a greatsermon, but instead, what a
great savior.
And, you know, and that weshouldn't just have that aim or
go just on a Sunday morning orSunday night or Wednesday night

(01:32:12):
because, you know, the way welive our life should point
people in that direction. And sothat's, you know, that's,
something that I read a lot ofbooks and and I feel real bad
after reading them, to behonest. You know, it's just

T.J. (01:32:30):
Yeah. So you're making make the comparison of the life
of another person to your life?Or or

Dennis (01:32:36):
Yeah. It is you know, you see how they were completely
given over to the Holy Spirit.They completely given over to
the gospel. And and we have soso so much going on today. Mhmm.
We have we have distractionseverywhere to our and, you know,

(01:32:58):
granted, you know, 1500 inGeneva, Switzerland, maybe there
wasn't those distractions, buthere we are. We have them.

T.J. (01:33:08):
Yeah.

Dennis (01:33:08):
And we allow them to take our eyes and our hearts and
our minds off the Lord JesusChrist.

T.J. (01:33:15):
Yeah.

Dennis (01:33:15):
Because when you come down to think of it, and and we
kinda talked about this, youknow, off camera with the
wealth, you know, because howmuch of the stuff do we really
need?

T.J. (01:33:23):
Right. Right.

Dennis (01:33:25):
Yeah. You know, and so, how much of the stuff do we
really need to be doing? And,you know, in individually,
that's that's something I I I,you know, I feel like the Lord
may be dealing with me, mespecifically a little bit here.
But, you know, it's it's one ofthose things that, you know,

(01:33:47):
even looking at the ministry,it's it's being it's being
lumped into a career a lot oftimes, so to speak.

T.J. (01:33:54):
Mhmm.

Dennis (01:33:55):
And, you know, where you're negotiating vacation time
or pay and this, that, andother. And and I know a lot of
ministers, you know, don't dothat or feel like they have to
do that. And, it's just one ofthe things that I've never, it's
never sat right with me. I Imiss church Sunday, for the

(01:34:21):
softball tournament. You know?
Again, this is little we'redealing with me on these things.

T.J. (01:34:27):
Dennis, where are your priorities? Yeah.

Dennis (01:34:30):
But but I pride myself, and that's another problem. But,
you know, that's the firstSunday I've not been in there
all year, and if nothingchanges, that'd be that Sunday
I'm not there. Because I feellike I have to be there. And and

(01:34:50):
I know some people like, hey.You need a vacation, you need a
break.
But, you know, my it's kindalike the old saying, I'll rest
when I'm dead. You know, thecalling is greater than that.
Now I will say while I was gone,I'm not like some people on
vacation. I actually went tochurch twice on Sunday at 2

(01:35:12):
different churches. So, I havethat going for me.
But now, you know, we just, wedon't prioritize. There's so
many things that take priorityover our faith and our
assembling together, so tospeak. And I raised my hand
first that I've been as guiltyof it. And so when I read about

(01:35:36):
people like Calvin or Whitfieldthat preached every single day,
or or I think it was Calvin inGeneva. It was like Sunday
through Thursday.
He preached every morning. And Ijust like, man, I I I sometimes
struggle to get 3 together, 1together, you know.

T.J. (01:35:56):
Alright. Alright. Alright. So cut yourself some slack
though because, like, even inthe 43 years of life that you
have, you know, the stories thatwe get I'm not saying to dispute
them because I don't know howmany times Calvin preached per
week. But to collapse somebody'sentire life into a book, you're

(01:36:21):
only gonna pull out the mostmemorable, most important stuff.
So, you know, while maybe hepreached many times throughout
the week, he probably didn'thave 2 jobs, 8 children, you
know, and and the sameresponsibilities as you.

Dennis (01:36:44):
Well and and and that's true. But I also look at is
these jobs that I have is

T.J. (01:36:52):
I could let me interrupt you. I'm laughing because I can
see in your eyes you're about tojustify and write me rightly so,
but poke holes in my argument.Okay. I interrupted you, please.
Go ahead.

Dennis (01:37:07):
No. You know, it it's so like, the jobs that I have. Or
or you look at a lot of familiesor 2 incomes. You know, families
are 2 incomes today a lot oftimes. Now granted, there's some
everything is more expensive.
I I get it. But, you know, wealso have a lot more toys than

(01:37:27):
other generations have. And so,you know, you look at you look
at the job this the secular jobthat I have, and I alluded to
this earlier. I left another jobbecause I said, you know what,
I'm gonna trust the Lord to takecare of me. And, you know, maybe
there may be something else.
You know, sometimes if we woulddepend upon the Lord to take

(01:37:50):
care of us while we fulfill tothe great commission and while
we do the things he's called usto do. Now granted, I don't know
what's in people's hearts orminds and the call that God has
on each one of his life. Butjust in general, we have so many
more distractions that we allowinto our life. And that's that's
that's the that's the that's themain point because, you know, I

(01:38:14):
think it was off camera. You youmade comment, you know, like,
how many TVs do we need?
Right? And so, so oftentimes, weplan our lives around when a TV
show comes on. Well, now thatwe've got, you know, on demand
stuff, it's like, okay. We get afree and we're gonna sit here

(01:38:34):
and watch hours of the same TVshow. But that feature better be
able to keep my attention for 30minutes or I'm out.
Right. And it's it's just, Iguess, that's things I think
about, I guess.

T.J. (01:38:52):
Dennis, you're in a great time in your life and in a great
place to be where you may not bepreaching 6 times a week, but
you have a vocation where youcould read the forefathers and
foremothers of the early churchup into the contemporary church

(01:39:13):
and prepare and study toproclaim the good news 3 times a
week. And those things haven'talways been afforded to you and
they're not to others. Andthat's a blessing in and of
itself to be able to read thesegreats and study from them and

(01:39:35):
also learn from their ownmistakes, so we don't have to
make them.

Dennis (01:39:39):
Oh, yeah. Because you read about their mistakes too,
for sure.

T.J. (01:39:44):
Oh, yeah. You have to sell the book, how boring it is to
hear. Yeah. Dennis lived aregular life. He didn't cause
much trouble.
That would be a boring book.There has to be something in
there, scandalous. Dennis,please thank your family tonight
for, sharing you so that wecould do this podcast. I really

(01:40:07):
appreciate it. I appreciate youfor, taking your time away from
your family to be able to shareyour ministry, your calling, and
most importantly, yourrelationship with Jesus Christ.

Dennis (01:40:24):
No problem.

T.J. (01:40:27):
Thank you for joining me on this faith journey on
Cumberland Road. Dennis talkedabout the impact of his Sunday
school teacher in his formation.In gratitude to all those who
have taught, I close with thewords of William Arthur Ward.
Mediocre teacher tells. The goodteacher explains. The superior

(01:40:52):
teacher demonstrates. The greatteacher inspires. Thanks for
listening.

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Dennis Croslin - Life, Death, & Being Born Again

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Dennis Croslin - Life, Death, & Being Born Again