Isaac Gray - Music, Worship, & Being Authentic

Reverend Isaac Gray is a lifelong Cumberland Presbyterian born and raised in East Tennessee. He began his ministry journey in 2008 after being ordained at his home church in Afton shortly after graduating seminary. He and his family moved to Smithville in July of 2014 after pastoring the Pineville Cumberland Presbyterian Church in Arkansas for 6 years. Isaac, his wife Susan, and his two children, Caleb and Sarah, are excited to be in Smithville doing the work God has given them.

Music is provided by Pierce Murphy, Caldera Blue. 
Source:  https://www.freemusicarchive.org/music/Pierce_Murphy/through-the-olive-branches/caldera-blue
Comments: http://freemusicarchive.org/
Additional comments:  modifications made to shorten and loop song for introduction and closing of podcast.
Copyright Attribution and License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

Episode Transcript

T.J. (00:03):
Welcome to the Cumberland Road, where I have conversations
about how one's faith impactstheir daily life. I am your
host, TJ Malinoski. My guest forthis episode is Isaac Gray.
Isaac is the minister at theSmithville Cumberland

(00:25):
Presbyterian Church inTennessee. Isaac and I converse
on his faith, his ministry, onChristian music, the importance
of taking a rest, and on beingauthentic in ministry. Enjoy
this faith journey on CumberlandRoad with Isaac Gray.

(00:52):
Okay. Isaac, we were talking andI didn't, hit record. So the
question I was asking you, andthis was casual, do you play the
drums? Because we were talkingabout how you have physical
similarities. You look likedifferent people that are
famous. And so I was introducingyou to this guy on YouTube, who

(01:15):
does like drumming YouTubevideos. And then you were
telling me that you've beencompared to Tom Cruise and Adam
Levine. Mhmm. And then ourconversation went to drums
because I know you play theguitar. So do you play the
drums, and then we'll pick it upfrom there?

Isaac (01:32):
I do not play the drums. I wish I could. It'll be
awesome. But I do play guitar,but not expertly. So, yeah, I
was saying that my brother is ahe's been playing longer than I
have.
He's he's gifted and skilled. Heleads worship at a church in
Greene County. And so after hestarted playing, like, of course

(01:52):
I'm older and I I wanted to.Mhmm. But my my thought and I
don't know if it's a prayer, butmy thought was always, like,
Lord, just give me enough talentto be able to play some church
songs, right, to play some hymnsand play contemporary some
contemporary songs.
Because I think it's beneficialfor the pastor to be able to do
those sorts of things.

T.J. (02:13):
Mhmm.

Isaac (02:13):
For nursing homes is for one thing. For church, if you're
in a small church, you don'thave a lot of musicians. I think
it's just kinda handy. And soI've always been able to do
that. And so and, yeah, yourquestion before as I recorded
was, do I play any secularsongs?
Not really.

T.J. (02:30):
Mhmm.

Isaac (02:30):
I don't have much of a desire to just sit down and ever
play guitar. Like, I can if Ineed it in church or whatever. I
do it. And that's about all I'veever needed it for, and the lord
gave me that. And so I'mgrateful for it.
So

T.J. (02:42):
Are you self taught, or did you take lessons? How'd that
work?

Isaac (02:46):
Well, well, I think I took a few I think I took a
couple lessons, and I think Itook maybe a lesson or 2 in or
took, like, a guitar class incollege, I think. But, again, my
like I said, my brother is anexpert musician. So he anybody
can play good, can teach youchords at strumming, pretty
much.

T.J. (03:05):
Okay.

Isaac (03:05):
So it's it's not too terribly hard to play guitar.
It's really not.

T.J. (03:09):
Alright. I'm laughing because I have no musical
talent. I really enjoy music,but I do not sing and I do not
play an instrument. Yeah. Iadmire those that can do 1 or
both.
And that that's why we weretalking, off mic is, just the
ability to play. So I am one ofthose ministers that does not

(03:29):
have that tool or that gift orthat ability to be able to play
an instrument in a nursing homeor at a retreat or revival or a
camping experience. I'm not ableto bring that to the table.

Isaac (03:42):
Yeah. It's pretty handy. And my my whole family on both
sides are very musical. Like andI'm one of the least musically
talented people, especially onmy father's side.

T.J. (03:54):
Do they look down at you?

Isaac (03:56):
No. They don't, but they can all sing amazingly,
beautifully. Like, I have notonly was my brother in music
ministry, I have 2 cousins aswell that are in music ministry.
1 sings with the selling gospelquartet, and another one of my
cousins, these are like secondcousins. He he leads music at a
church as well.

(04:17):
And so my family's been bothsides again. They've been
singing in church since, well,long before I was ever born. So
it's so I have that richheritage. And I'm thankful I got
just a smidgen, just a littlebit of that talent, but not near
as much as some of them have.

T.J. (04:35):
Isaac, how does music play into worship in in its role from
your perspective? It is it acompliment? Is it a necessity? I
mean, what is your view on that?

Isaac (04:48):
Yeah. I think we should say, first of all, probably that
music is not a necessity forworship. Right? Because we wanna
have worship that goes beyond asfar as a heart posture, we wanna
have music we wanna have worshipthat goes beyond into let me let

(05:09):
me say that again. When it comesto worship, we want it to go
beyond just music.
So often we make it about themusic. Right? I sing my favorite
hymns that I like, victory inJesus, whatever it may be. And
it makes me feel good andemotional, and it leads me to
worship. Or in the other vein,we have our contemporary songs,

(05:30):
you know, gives me the chillbumps, makes me raise my hands,
and that's worship.
Now that is part of it. Right?And I think we agree with that,
but we want it to be so muchmore. So we are worshiping we
can worship without, quote,without music. So I think that's
an I think that's really, reallyimportant to recognize that

(05:53):
distinction.
But or however, I do think thatmusic is, man, music is really
amazing in that it it it speaksto us and touches us in a way
that just speaking words cannot.Right? Music touches us on a

(06:13):
deep, deep level. And I don'tthink that's a Christian thing.
I think that's a people thing.
Like and I've used this manytimes with my congregation.
Like, you can go to a concert.Just pick any concert in our in
2024 in our culture. Any musicgenre, rap, country, opera, soft

(06:34):
rock, pop, any of it. And whatwill you find in every single
concert?
You know what that is, TJ? Whatyou'll find in all those
concerts?

T.J. (06:43):
No. What?

Isaac (06:44):
You will find people with their hands in the air. Why?
Because music touches us on adeeper level, and I do believe
that with everything in me. AndI think that's and I think all
those different those handsraised, you know, whether it's
just waving back and forth,hands are in the air. Get your
hands up and like you oh, in theair like you don't just don't

(07:05):
just don't care.
Right? Yeah. Because it touchesus the and I think that's the
way God designed us. And sowhile worship is not necessary
while music is not necessary forworship, I do think it's a vital
part of it. Mhmm.
And and I enjoy tremendouslymusic in the church, whether it

(07:27):
be the good old hymns that wegrew up singing or whether it be
some of the newer stuff. I loveall of it. And then I think the
greatest the greatest sound inthe church is God's people
singing. Like, I I tell I'vetold our we we have 2 services,
an 8:45 contemporary service,11, 11 o'clock traditional

(07:51):
service. And I've told our guywho leads our contemporary
worship, 8:45, I've said, I wantyou to pay attention to the
congregational singing.
If people if we're singing good,tell the instruments to back off
because there's no morebeautiful sound than God's
people singing God's praise withjust their voices. It's it's a

(08:11):
powerful thing. Yeah. Powerfulthing.

T.J. (08:14):
As a minister, how do you balance, like, the lyrics of
music, the contemporary music,and the theology that you hold
and that you preach? Becausesometimes those can differ. So
do you pay close attention tothe lyrics? And how do you

(08:37):
choose the songs? What what isyour process?
What what do you go through assomebody who's in the pastorate?

Isaac (08:45):
Well, I am blessed in that I don't pick out the songs
for our Sunday morning worshipservices. We we have, like I
said, the young guy who leadsour contemporary service. He
picks all the music for that,service, and then our organist
slash pianist slash churchsecretary picks the music for

(09:05):
our 11 o'clock service. And so Idon't I don't pick that, which
is which I love. I like thatsomeone else can do that.
And so I don't think throughthat process a whole lot. But I
guess I'll give you an answerthough in theory and when I do
have to pick music. Yeah. Imean, I think we have to pay

(09:29):
attention to the lyrics, don'twe? We we have to because we can
get so caught up in the melodyand I like the tune of the song,
which is not bad.
But sometimes I think we cansacrifice the lyrical part of it
if we're not careful and startsaying things about God that are

(09:50):
not necessarily true or a littlebit you know, they might be
close to accurate true, butthey're a little bit off. Like,
we don't wanna we don't wanna gothere, do we?

T.J. (10:01):
Well, it's just, an observation I have and it and
it's somewhat critical, is a lotof the contemporary music that I
hear in churches that you couldpluck out, you know, the name of
God and Jesus and you could putBob's name in there or Mary or
whoever. You know, you know,because a lot of them are love

(10:24):
songs. Yeah. But, you know, it'sit's a different type of love
for Great. Another human beingas opposed to to God.
And so I think that's achallenge for the writers, of
course, who are writing thelyrics. But, you know, there's
that that may be theintroduction to the faith that

(10:47):
people are getting or that maybe the level of their theology
and the challenge is to be ableto go layers deeper than that,
you know. Yes.

Isaac (10:57):
Yeah. And I and I think you have to be more aware of
that with the contemporary musicbecause so many of the hymns and
not we don't wanna say that allthe hymns are awesome and good
because some of them are prettylame too. But but generally
speaking generally speaking, thehymns are more theologically
rich and sound as opposed tosome of the contemporary stuff.

(11:20):
So I think you're right on that.When it comes to contemporary
songs, you gotta be more carefulbecause of what you have just
said about some of those songs,and you can put Bob or Mary in
there.
It's a love song.

T.J. (11:32):
Yeah. I think it's a good test. It's one that I do. I
don't know if anybody else doesthis. So and again, this may be
heretical, but I'm listening toit and because I don't follow
Christian music.

Isaac (11:42):
Yeah. And

T.J. (11:43):
I'm listening to it. I'm like, well, what would what
would it be like if you putJim's name in there? You know?
Or John or Sue or or whatever.Does it change any?
Right. And sometimes it doesn't.

Isaac (11:56):
Yeah.

T.J. (11:57):
And so there's a distinction between Jim, Bob,
Sue, and Mhmm. You know, God orthe Trinity or, you know, Jesus,
the Holy Spirit, you know. So,it's just an observation. It
doesn't always work. But, yeah.
Test my theory. Sometimes, maybethat is a good theological test
of of a contemporary or not socontemporary music found in

(12:21):
church.

Isaac (12:21):
I'd agree with that. I sure would.

T.J. (12:23):
And if not, you can call me up and throw the hate at me.
Right?

Isaac (12:29):
You did that already, PJ. So, be part of the

T.J. (12:33):
course. So, Isaac, I was thinking about, our kind of how
to open our conversation. Ihadn't done this in a while with
a guest, but if you don't mind,kind of think with me and and
walk me through a profoundexperience you had that was
really a turning point in yourChristian faith. And, we can

(12:56):
always bounce around and kindago, you know, chronological if
you like, but just somethingsignificant that really made the
Christian faith in yourrelationship with God become
real and something that youcouldn't ignore or something of
that nature. Do you have any ofthose experiences?

Isaac (13:20):
Yes. And and my story is we were I was talking about this
with my small group. We're partof a small group that meets
every once every Sunday night,and I love it. There's 7 or 8 of
us. Some of my favorite thingsall week, and we were talking
about this.
We're doing some material nowthat made you think about your
story, like before Christ andafter Christ. Mhmm. And so that

(13:42):
part of it was they had you thebook asked us to write out your
like, how you were before Jesus.What were your habits? What did
you think about?
Like, what music did you listento? What was your attitude? All
this stuff. And then write outwhat you're like afterwards. And
I was telling my group, I foundthat very difficult to do

(14:05):
because I was saved at a youngage.
I don't know what age I was, butI remember being in the living
room living room of my home, andI was I have no idea. 8, 9, 10.
I don't know. I do have thatvivid moment. And so, like, can
like like, how was I beforebefore Jesus?

(14:29):
I don't really know. I was justa kid. Mhmm. So it's hard to
compare, like, before Jesus andafter Jesus. It's like it's
always been trying to be a Chrisquote Christian Christ follower
has just always been part of myjourney.

T.J. (14:47):
Mhmm.

Isaac (14:47):
So on that front, you know, it's hard to, you know,
think of that specific encounterwhen I realized, hey. I'm a
sinner, and I'm lost, and I needto be saved from Jesus. Like, I
don't know what my thoughtprocess was before that moment.
Right? And I don't know if and Idon't know why I'm telling you

(15:10):
this.
I don't know if it's gonna helpanybody else, but and so it's
been hard for me to try to thinkabout how is my life different?
How has my life changed becauseit's just always been what I've
known? And so it's been one ofthose things where I've had to
just, you know, gradually growin my faith over the years and

(15:32):
make it my own faith as opposedto I grew up in church. I grew
up in the Cullman PresbyterianChurch all these years, and it's
just kind of you know, it's thefaith of your grandparents, the
faith of your parents, and nowit's it's your faith. And so
it's it's been this process oftrying of trying to figure out
what that looks like for me.

(15:53):
Now with that being said, I Ican name some experiences in my
life where, like, yeah, this isthis is not about my parents or
grandparents. This is my faith.And and several of those
happened probably when I was incollege. When I spent 2 years at
Hawassie College, which is nowclosed, RIP Hiwassee College.

(16:18):
Very sad.
But it was

T.J. (16:20):
It closed because you attended there?

Isaac (16:23):
It did not. It did not. Did not. After I was gone for
several years.

T.J. (16:28):
Okay.

Isaac (16:29):
But it was just just a 2 year junior college in
Madisonville, Tennessee, aroundthe Sweetwater, Athens area,
that kind of generalneighborhood in East Tennessee.
And it was a small population ofstudents, but we had a
phenomenal Christian life onthat campus. And we had a great

(16:50):
chaplain who I still keep upwith to this day. And so the
Lord I mean, I don't want to sayit was just for me. I don't want
to say the Lord brought allthose people there just for me,
TJ, and my faith.
But, man, sometimes I look backon it and I think, some of my
other friends would say thistoo, like, it was so formative
because as part of my core groupof friends, there were Baptists,

(17:16):
there were Methodists, therewere charismatic Pentecostals,
and even our chaplain, he was acharismatic Methodist. Like
healings and speaking words ofprophecy, all this stuff. And so
I got the Lord allowed me to beexposed to all those kind of
different avenues of the churchand faith. And being someone who

(17:40):
grew up strictly in theCumberland Presbyterian Church
all of my life and seeing mainlythat, man, it was so, so good.
And so if I thought long enough,I could probably name some
specific events that happened.
But I guess I'll just saygenerally, it was kind of that

(18:00):
season where the Lord reallyshowed me and and opened my eyes
up to what this faith is aboutMhmm. And assured me that that
it was real in my heart and andin my mind.

T.J. (18:15):
And you were able to do that in the moment, you know, to
be able to reflect upon thatthis is really a unique place to
be, you know.

Isaac (18:28):
Sure. And yeah. And I think we I think I got that in
the moment. And, of course, Ilook back now some over what is
it, 25 years now, I guess? 25years later now, I really,
really appreciate thatexperience and what the Lord let
me see and the conversations andhow the Lord worked.
And and we actually had a inthose 2 years, we had a little

(18:49):
mini revival on our campus. Andit was a sweet sweet time. And I
would give, like, if you couldgive things to go back in time
and live a couple days, youknow, back in a season of your
life, I would pay a lot to goback to that season of life
because it was so formative forme and my faith, getting to

(19:11):
experience those things and, youknow, and feeling God's presence
in my life. Seeing it seeingGod's presence in the life of
other people and feeling himfeeling the Lord in my in my own
life. And it really just, Iguess, cemented Mhmm.
Like, what I'd always beentaught and felt like was the

(19:32):
right way. It it made it real inthat season.

T.J. (19:36):
How did you land in Hiwassee College?

Isaac (19:40):
Well, my both of my aunts well, 2 of my aunts went there.
Mhmm. And I just did, man. Idon't know. You know, is after
you sent me the reflectionquestions last week, and I've
been thinking about this, likeand I've said this about my life
too.
Do you there was a contemporaryChristian artist named Chris

(20:04):
Ross back late nineties, early2000s, and he did quirky songs.
He was pretty good. He's gottenin trouble since then with stuff
he should have been doing. But,anyway, that season, he was
pretty popular on the scene, andhe had some just different kinds
of songs. And one of his songs,I don't remember the name of it,

(20:26):
but the tagline was, it's liketrying to smell the color 9.
Exactly. It's like trying tosmell the color 9. And then he
adds a little tag, well, that'skinda goofy because you can't
you can't smell a color. Andthat's not even a color. Right?
Or not it's not a star orhowever it is. And the whole

(20:49):
point of the song was, I can'texplain to you how I got where I
am, but all I know is I'm here,and the Lord has brought me
here. And so that's kind ofoverlaid my whole life seemed
especially in the early years.Like, how did I end up at
Ahuasi? I don't have a clue.

(21:10):
How did I end up at Henry HenryCollege to finish my degree? I
don't know. I just kinda I justkinda did. You know? That's not
a good I don't know if that'sthe the right answer, but that's
the way it's worked out in mylife.
But but but I can look back andsee the Lord's hand directing,
guiding, leading, you know, likea Hauwassee. Look back and and

(21:31):
see what the Lord did. Look backat my time at Emory and Henry
College in Virginia and think,man, the Lord he put me around
good people again, goodChristians to form and shape my
faith. And then seminary, it'sjust it was the same thing. And
so it's it yeah.

T.J. (21:47):
I think it says something about our personality as well.
It is good to look back andreflect and compare, you know,
contrast who we were, who weare. But also looking forward as
well. Like, who can we who can Ican become? Who, you know, and

(22:08):
who am I now?
And so let's talk about the hereand the now because that's all
we really have. Yeah. And sohow, Isaac, for you, do you know
that god is present here now?And what does that manifestation
look like or sound like, foryou?

Isaac (22:34):
It it's interesting that you asked that question. I have
pondered that, not just in thisseason, but periodically
throughout the last few years.And I don't know if this is what
you're asking, but I'm gonnagive it to you anyway. Like,
I've thought I don't know ifother pastors have this thought.

(22:57):
Like, if you if you take thechurch away, if you just take it
away I'm not a pastor.
I don't have meetings, counselpeople, plan services, or
whatever. Like, what does myfaith look like? Right? What is
it outside of that? Now I Ithink there's more to it, but

(23:20):
I've often had that thought.
Like, what is the here and now?How would I know God is is
present and real with me? And Idon't know that I always have
the right answer to thatquestion, but but I but I think
the answer is that well, I guesswe'll start well, since we just

(23:44):
talked about it, I'll I'll namemy small group. Right? In that
group of people, I can see andfeel God's presence working
through them and working in me.
But as we share life and haveconversation, like, just that
interaction, that back andforth, you know, like, that's a
little evidence. Like, yeah,this is this is real. Like and

(24:08):
this is like, I connected withthese people outside the church.
I connected with these people aspart of the church, but we're
doing this. What we're doinghere is not connected to Sunday
morning worship or a or aplanned Bible study on a
Wednesday night.
Like, we're just gettingtogether and having friendships,
and I experienced God's presencein that, and I think that's a

(24:35):
pretty powerful thing and,pretty real thing as far as
knowing how God's manifestingHimself in my life. Did that
make sense?

T.J. (24:46):
I I think it does. I'll, expound upon it and then you can
kinda corral me in. I thinkthere's a challenge there's a
gray area for those who areChristian and maybe in a
leadership role, like aminister. Like, where's that
line between the profession andlike the follower? And, you

(25:09):
know, you raise the question oflike, okay, what if the
institution as I know it, which,you know, is my livelihood?
What if this was removed? Whatis left of the faith? Who am I?
Yeah. And I think that's achallenging question for a lot
of ministers because it is aprofession.
Part of that ego is wrapped intothe role of ministry. Sure. Male

(25:34):
or female. So I think I thinkmost folks avoid the question.

Isaac (25:43):
Sure.

T.J. (25:44):
Because the answer is, I am my profession and a
Christian, but probablyprofession first.

Isaac (25:55):
Sure. But, you you know, I think you're right on line
with that. I really I really do.

T.J. (26:00):
That's such a sweeping statement that I have no
empirical evidence to sit backup.

Isaac (26:04):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I think it'd be accurate. It
really would because and so andnot not because and so I think
we pastors have to be verycareful to make sure, like, am I
having am am I with the Lordoutside of my profession, the
church, my identity, and andstaying in the word and staying

(26:28):
in prayer and and finding waysto to connect with God outside
of the church.
And and I'll I'll give youexample. Just here recently, I
hadn't thought I hadn't thoughtabout this much. Well, not at
all. Actually, it was just lastweek. I went on a hike and went
camping with one of my churchmembers.
He's an avid hiker, avid camper.He's like, let's go. So and, of
course, in Middleton, so we'vegot we've got a 100 places you

(26:50):
could go to hike 4, 5, 6 miles,10 miles, and camp. And so we
went hiking last Monday. We wewalked like 7 7 miles, something
like that, on Monday, and we'recamping Monday night.
And so we had got back afterhiking, had built a fire, and he
just made up some a little bitof, I don't know, some kind of

(27:10):
chicken stuff, chicken couscousor whatever it was. I don't
know. And just perimeter aroundthe campfire, and he, you know,
he gave it to me and he had hisand I just felt this
overwhelming, like, sense ofgratitude and thankfulness just
to be there. It was dark, ofcourse. It gets dark at 4

(27:31):
o'clock now.
So it was dark sitting aroundthat campfire, just me and him,
you know, over this hot cup ofchicken and couscous. There's
this overwhelming sense of thankyou, Lord, for this moment.
Like, thank you that I can beout in creation and connect with
you, Lord, through creation. AsI'm hiking through the woods, we

(27:53):
hiked out to a to a waterfall tosee it, and this relation this
connection I'm having withanother person, Lord. And and
so, you know, it's moments likethat that that assure me that,
yeah, god god's here, god'snear, and there is a connection.
So it there it's more than justmy identity tied up in my

(28:14):
profession, my job.

T.J. (28:15):
Yeah. I think one way to test to see where we are for
leaders within a religiousorganization like the church is
how would you answer thequestion to a complete stranger,
who am I? You know, it's kind oflike that 9th grade assignment

(28:36):
writing assignment of, you know,answer the question, who am I?

Isaac (28:40):
Yeah.

T.J. (28:40):
And, you know, where does that does the profession is that
at the top? You know, is it isit spouse? Is it sibling? Is it
parent? Is it is it whateverprofession that you're a part
of?
That may may be a pointer. Maybenot be the pointer, but an a
pointer of, like, how much wegray that area between a

(29:05):
follower of Christ and a practpracticing the Christian faith
and, you know, what helps payfor your medical insurance and
bills and stuff like that.

Isaac (29:20):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I'm always trying to stay aware
of that, you know, that thatgray you're talking about.

T.J. (29:26):
And and actually I think people avoid it. Yeah. Because

Isaac (29:29):
Yeah. I think you're probably I think you're probably
right.

T.J. (29:32):
Why not like the answer?

Isaac (29:34):
Yeah. Because yeah. You're right because sometimes
the answer is not what we like.It's it's it's the it's the
wrong answer for a pastor to begiving.

T.J. (29:44):
And it would be a question I'd rather ask of myself
inwardly than have someone elseask it of me.

Isaac (29:51):
Yeah. And it's it's part of that self awareness. Right?
We we have a hard time beingself aware as people because we
are like, when it comes to mebeing this who deceives me the
most? Me.
I I do because I think I'mawesome and I'm I'm nailing it.
But so often, I'm I'm notnailing it. You know, I'm just

(30:15):
an old person like everybodyelse trying to walk this life of
faith and follow Jesus, which isit's not always ease it's not
always easy.

T.J. (30:25):
That's so funny because the other extreme of the
personality of the personhood isI'm not awesome. I'm awful.
Right. You know, miserable or orwhatever it may be. Mhmm.
Sure. It just shows the dynamicof of a human being that Yeah.

(30:46):
Yeah. It's pretty amazing.

Isaac (30:49):
Yeah. Yeah.

T.J. (30:51):
So, Isaac, let's talk more about living in the here and the
now. I think there's some meritin that. You had mentioned
gratitude.

Isaac (31:01):
Mhmm.

T.J. (31:01):
And I have been living with the past few years with
gratitude and humility, twoareas that I will always have to
work on, speak more aboutgratitude and what that means to
you. What does that look like?And how is gratitude any
different than Is there adifference between maybe a

(31:24):
gratitude that is practiced by aChristian and maybe gratitude
that is just by somebody who'snot part of the faith community?
Is there any difference in that?

Isaac (31:36):
Yep. Probably. I've never I've not thought too much about
gratitude, TJ, to be honest.Like, I just try to have it and
be and and be thankful for whatGod's given. Like recognizing
that everything I have is fromthe Lord.
Like James 1:17, every good giftcomes from above, from the

(31:56):
Father of lights. Right? It'snot because I worked hard or
kept my life in line or did theright thing. Just because God in
His grace decided to give meeverything I have: my health,
the money in my bank account, mycar that I can put gas in and go
different places, like the factthat my children are healthy,

(32:18):
the fact that I have parentsthat brought me up in church who
are Christ followers themselvesand grandparents who are Christ
followers, like the Lord gaveall that to me. The fact that
I'm in a church that I love for10 years now in Smithville, and
the people love me and I lovethem, like, man, the Lord gave
all that.
How can I not have gratitude andthankfulness, you know, for all

(32:41):
that stuff as opposed tofocusing on like, if you focus
on the good things? Like, we allhave bad stuff to focus on.
Right? We all have problems thatin in life, they're difficult to
walk through and they're tough.Man, like, they're so much more
good.
The fact that I have breath inmy lungs, the fact that I have a

(33:02):
healthy body, that I like, wewent on a hike last week. Dude,
my right knee and my left anklewere both killing me. Not 5
miles in, I was thinking, oh,what am I doing? What am I this
hurts so bad. I'm in so muchpain right now.
But, like, just the gratefulnessthat I still could get out there
and hop through those woods fora total of 10 miles in 2 days.

(33:25):
So many people can't do that.Right? So many people are not
don't have the health to be whoare people younger than me. I'm
40 I'll be 44 in a couple weeks.
There are people who are youngerthan me who cannot do that.
Mhmm. Right? So try to begrateful that God's given me
that gift, you know, and andwhatever other things, you know,
God's done for me, you know, abunch of things. Just keep those

(33:48):
things always in the forefrontof my mind.

T.J. (33:50):
Yeah. I think about that as well. I think about even
something as simple as puttingon my shoes.

Isaac (33:56):
Yeah. Yes.

T.J. (33:57):
I think that there are people who are younger than me
due to injury, you know, from anaccident or sports injury,
whatever it may be, that have tohave help and assistance. And
yet I think at the same time,that I do need to rely more on

(34:18):
others, especially the older Iget.

Isaac (34:20):
Sure.

T.J. (34:21):
To be able to, you know because I'm like, oh, man. I'll
take care of that. Oh, I can

Isaac (34:24):
do that. Yeah. Oh, I

T.J. (34:26):
can 7 miles, no problem. I'll I'll beat you to it.

Isaac (34:29):
Oh, yeah.

T.J. (34:30):
You know, why are you walking so slow? That, you know,
there there are limitations. Andbeing able to depend on that
community Mhmm. I think helpsstrengthen us collectively, but,
you know, on that individuallevel that I'm a make it that 5

(34:51):
miles, that 7 miles. And it mayrequire the leaning on, you
know, a hiking buddy.

Isaac (34:58):
Yeah.

T.J. (34:59):
I'm I'm gonna do it. And

Isaac (35:01):
Yeah. And and I think that's a good word for for
pastors and ministry leaderswhich a lot of people who listen
are ministry leaders to yourpodcast like like the value of
the community like we tend to wetend to have like, I think back
to something Pam Phillipsburgsaid, this is probably 10 years

(35:22):
ago. She talked about so manypastors have a messiah complex.
I don't know if you've heard hertalk about this. I'll quote her.
Be sure to leave this in, TJ. Imentioned her in the podcast.
She talked about pastors havethis messiah complex. Like, we
can do it all. We can handle itall.
I don't need any help. I don'tneed a vacation. I don't need a

(35:45):
break. My church needs me to behere all the time, which that's
just ludicrous. It's there'ssome a lot to be said for
Sabbath, how important that isand leaning on other people and
and letting other people help usbecause nobody can go through
this life on their own.
Like, that's not way the way wewere made. We were made to be in
community with other people.

T.J. (36:07):
And see, for me, I think that's I'd mentioned humility
earlier. For me, that's wherehumility comes in. Yeah. You're
preaching, not that great. It'scertainly not as great as you
think it is.
You're postural care. Yeah. Samething. There are others out
there who can help shoulder theload when it becomes a load.

(36:27):
Mhmm.
And and why not share in thegraces of the community?

Isaac (36:32):
Yes.

T.J. (36:33):
Unless the community that you have surrounded yourself
with is not really, you know,like, circular, but it's more
pyramid. Man, what a fall onceyou do fall. It's gonna be a
long tumble.

Isaac (36:47):
Yeah. You know it. Yeah. And it's and it's and that's
another one of the things Ithank the Lord for often that
that God has given. Let mepastor a church and let my
family be in a church that thatdoesn't expect me to do
everything and and will let merest and take a break and say,

(37:11):
hi.
Hey. I need I need help. Mhmm.And that's one of the reasons I
love this church so much. Like,it it's it's a gift that the
Lord has given me and a giftthat they have given me.
Right. To to to just be, yeah,to to to not always be the
pastor, to sometimes just be anormal person, and just sit in a

(37:32):
circle of people and talk as oneof talk as another fellow human
and not I'm the pastor. Youpeople are the lesser than the
pastor. Just the lay folk whodon't know as much. Now, you
know, I'm always the pastor.
Right? I I I get that. Everypastor knows that. You always
are, quote, on duty. But I thinkif a church can give their

(37:56):
pastor that freedom to relaxsometimes and just be one of the
people, that's a huge gift.
Huge gift.

T.J. (38:04):
Not a lot of people have that opportunity or have cloaked
themselves in the role sodeeply. I guess we've talked
extensively about that already.Yeah. So for those ministers,
those church leaders, becauseyou don't have to be a minister,
when they are in that place,what advice would you give them,
Isaac, in terms of kinda likestepping out, stepping away, or,

(38:29):
not wearing the role all thetime? Right.
The role specifically, I guess,of minister. The the profession.

Isaac (38:40):
I would say probably 2 things off the top of my head.
Number 1 is and I'm a bigproponent of this. Be honest.
Don't put on a show. Don't tryto pretend things are not what
they are.
Be honest. Be authentic. Bereal. We can talk about that a
little bit later too if you wantto get back to that. So be real

(39:03):
with people.
And I think the second thingthat I've I've had to learn
this, not the hard, hard way,but I've had to the Lord's had
to show me, like, take aSabbath. The reason I was on
that high class Monday is that'smy Sabbath day. Like, I was
taking a break and lettingpeople know, hey. I I can't be
on call 20 fourseven, 365. It'snot possible.

(39:27):
It's it's not. I have to haverest and break. And so I think
that that's one real place tostart. Be intentional because
probably, like, what was lastyear, fall of last year, maybe,
middle summer of last year, I Itold my session several times,
like, I just feel tired and wornout. Like, I'm ready for a

(39:49):
break.
I'm ready for, like, a 6 monthbreak. And I I I figured out not
long after that, well, maybe Ishould say the lord let me see
it, that I was at the church 7days a week. That is not
sustainable. But you know whathappened, TJ, when I when I was
became intentional about becameintentional about a Sabbath day

(40:10):
every week? Man, I I felt prettyfresh.
I enjoyed much more coming tothe office. I enjoyed much more
preaching, preparation, all thatstuff. It became more enjoyable
because I was fresher as opposedto going through the grind every
single day. So I think that's avery practical way to start.
Start making yourself take aSabbath, whether that's a

(40:31):
Monday, Friday, Wednesday,Thursday, whatever.
Half a day, do it. Get away anddo something. I mean, we we
don't take that serious andbecause we're we're messiahs.
Right? Messiah complex.

T.J. (40:45):
So you take just one Sabbath, one day.

Isaac (40:50):
Mhmm. I do. Yeah.

T.J. (40:54):
That's an improvement from 0.

Isaac (40:57):
Yeah. Well, I mean, it's it's a day every week. I try to
take the same day every week.You know, and sometimes that can
fluctuate based on the week. ButI'll try to be pretty
intentional about taking sometime.
And that can be a hike or discgolf or it can be, you know, a
lunch with friend a friend orjust peddling around my house
and my shed one afternoon. Justsomething to shut my mind off

(41:21):
from quote the ministry stuffthat that which is my job.

T.J. (41:26):
Do you completely unplug, like, phone is away? You're not
responding to Facebook messages,text, phone calls, emails?

Isaac (41:37):
No. I don't usually do that. I mean, it and it depends
on what I'm doing. Like, onthose days, I'm not looking at
it quite as much. But, again,one thing that's beneficial too
is my people know.
Monday is my day off. So unlesssomebody is is dying or
something serious has happened,just don't contact me. Let's
just wait till Tuesday. And ifyou let people know that and

(41:59):
remind them consistently, mostof the time, folks will respect
that. They really will.
And so I don't get too many airphone calls or Facebook messages
or text on my day off because mypeople leave me alone because
I've made clear, that's that'smy day. Don't mess with me. You
know, say it very nicely, ofcourse.

T.J. (42:21):
Isaac, how did you get into the ministry? We've talked
about it the entireconversation. But we haven't
talked about how you enteredinto the ministry.

Isaac (42:33):
Okay. Like logistically? Is that what you what you asked?

T.J. (42:36):
Well, you're calling, You know? I mean, thing things were
great at Yes. And then youfinished up your degree where
did you mention?

Isaac (42:44):
At Emory Emory and Henry.

T.J. (42:46):
Okay. Emory and Henry. And then what? And you were in
school. What were you in schoolfor?

Isaac (42:52):
Yeah. Well, well, let's just go back to let's go all the
way back, TJ.

T.J. (42:59):
How far back?

Isaac (43:00):
Until, like, middle school.

T.J. (43:02):
Okay.

Isaac (43:02):
Well, not all the way back. Partly way back to middle
school. When I was in middleschool, you know, they make you
and even in high school too,they make you go to all these
career fairs. You know, job jobdays, and everybody's there.
Tell me about the job.
And I remember going to thoseand always thinking, none of
this stuff sounds any good to mewhatsoever. I don't wanna do any

(43:23):
of those things. And there theremight have been a 100 people
there with their job. I don'twanna do any of this stuff. It
all sounds nasty and gross.
I'll look back now. You knowwhat all sounds nasty and gross?
Because the Lord's called me toministry. And so I wasn't
thinking ministry at those atthat point in life, but I look
back and say, yeah. The Lord wassaying this is none of this is

(43:45):
for you, man.
This is not yours. And so I Icontinue to grow my faith
through high school, and it wasafter my freshman year of
college. You know, I I talkedabout being at Hawassie and how
formative that was for my faith.After that 1st year of college,
I accepted the call to ministry.I was sitting at First Baptist
Church, Greenville, Tennessee.

(44:07):
They were having a revival. Thepreacher was preaching from
Ecclesiastes 2 and Ecclesiastes12. I don't remember what he
said, but I remember thinking atthe end of that sermon, and I
didn't this wasn't like an altarcall. This would happen in the
pew at the end of that serviceas the guy I think he was still
preaching, and I just felt theLord nudge nudging my heart,

(44:29):
calling me to ministry. And Isaid, okay.
I'll do it, Lord. Let let's go.If this is what you want, I'm
I'm all in. So it wasn't like II didn't run from it. I didn't
argue.
Like, for me, it was a veryclear cut and easy. Like and so
I had enough of a relationshipwith the Lord then, like, to
hear his voice and know he'she's speaking to me, and he's

(44:51):
calling me to this. And I said,yeah. Let's go. And so I
finished college, went toseminary, got under the care of
this the community on theministry, and just kept taking
the steps.
And that was pretty much it.

T.J. (45:03):
Okay. It's

Isaac (45:03):
really important to us.

T.J. (45:05):
You've made it sound so simple, so easy.

Isaac (45:08):
I mean

T.J. (45:09):
But I do like that. I mean, you you leaned into it.

Isaac (45:12):
But but for me but you know what? I'll make it sound
simple because for me, it was.Mhmm. Like and I don't say that
proactively. I really don't.
It's just, like, it just waseasy. It really was. And and so,
you know yeah. That that that'sit. It was just it was simple

(45:34):
for me.
It's simple. Like, once I heardthe Lord speaking, like, that's
what I mean by simple. Once Iheard the I felt like the Lord
was calling me and was sure ofit, that's where I said, okay.
This this is an easy decision. Idon't know what it'll look like
in 15 years or what's next, butI'll do it.
And so I just started juststarted going, walking the path.

T.J. (45:55):
No. I I understand. I mean, mine would my calling was
at a much younger age. And youyou talked about the, yeah, the
the recruitment day or whateverthey were calling in high
school. Yeah.
I mean, I I knew in high schoolwhat I was going to be doing.

Isaac (46:09):
Okay. So

T.J. (46:10):
it didn't seem like, it wasn't a productive time for me.
I mean, I didn't mind walkingaround and looking, but I'm not
gonna do any of these, you know.

Isaac (46:18):
Yeah. Yeah.

T.J. (46:19):
It's just going going to be. So I can relate to that.

Isaac (46:22):
Uh-huh.

T.J. (46:22):
I also know that most people don't have that type of
path.

Isaac (46:27):
Oh, sure. Sure.

T.J. (46:29):
And so or and who are currently not on that path. And
to hear these 2 middle aged mentalk about, well, it was easy.
It was, you know, it was just Ididn't put a lot of thought into
it. There was no alternative.That's what it felt like for me
Sure.
Is is, this is this this is it.And Mhmm. I was excited about

(46:54):
it. And there just wasn't roomin my head, then nor now, for,
like, well, what if I try this?Or Mhmm.
What if I go down this path?

Isaac (47:04):
Mhmm. Yeah.

T.J. (47:05):
Yeah. And

Isaac (47:06):
Yeah. I've always yeah. Like, so you would agree with me
when I say this. Like, if I wasnot doing ministry, I don't have
a clue what I would do. No idea.
Work work at a retail storesomewhere, stocking shelves? I
don't know. It'd it'd be prettylame, but I don't know what it'd
be. Not that those are lame notthat those are lame jobs. It
sounded it sounded bad.

T.J. (47:26):
You're backpedaling. Well, you know, I've done both, you
know. So I I've been byvocational, tri vocational, quad
vocational. Mhmm. I don't Ifound meaning in in all of
those, but Oh, sure.

Isaac (47:39):
You can.

T.J. (47:40):
Not at the level of what what I feel like I have been
hardwired for. And so, you know,the fulfillment level is has
been different for me. But Ihave found meaning in those. And
in many ways, you're talkingabout the Sabbath, they became
in a strange way little miniSabbaths from, ministry. Because

(48:06):
in my I I'm not a goodmultitasker.
So, to be to be doing one thingyet thinking about another, I'm
just not able to do that well.Sure.

Isaac (48:16):
So I

T.J. (48:16):
had to focus on what was in front of me because it's the
here and the now.

Isaac (48:21):
Oh, sure. Yeah. Makes sense.

T.J. (48:22):
And, so yeah. For so yeah. Mine's different, and that's not
why we're here. But

Isaac (48:30):
Right.

T.J. (48:30):
Yeah. There's some similarities there. Let let's
talk about some of the folks whohave been formative in your
faith, who've kind of shepherdedyou along. You've mentioned your
parents. Mhmm.
You know, has there been otherpeople within your family or
your circle that has formed yourfaith, but and also your

(48:51):
ministry as well.

Isaac (48:53):
Yeah. Like, you you mentioned people in my family.
I'll give a shout out to myentire family. Right? Parents,
grandparents, aunts, uncles.
Like, I'm beyond grateful, TJ,to be to have been raised in a
Christian home, in a Christianfamily. Being in the church,

(49:18):
serving the Lord through variousmeans of, of ways, it was
ingrained in me from day 1. Andso my, and my my family just
didn't go to church. They wereSunday school teachers and song
leaders and doing all kinds ofdifferent things. And so that's
a huge huge gift, for me thatthat and so I I give a shout out

(49:43):
to all of them for my entire thefirst 18 years of my life
through graduate high school.
They were all very veryformative. Church camps, all
that stuff and so I'm grateful,to all of them. But I think
probably the one person that Iwould have to give would say had
a huge maybe the biggest impacton my faith, on my ministry.

(50:10):
Talked about a couple of themalready, my my friends at
college. But another was mymentor, who who showed me what
it meant to what, show me whatwhat faith and ministry were
really about, which is just toto use to sum it all up, which

(50:36):
is discipleship.
Right? That's what it's allabout, teaching people how to
follow Jesus. And so he investedin me, and then this is kind of
from a distance as well. Iwasn't ever in the same
geographical area as him awhole, whole lot, but it was
enough to to just get a glimpseof, of what it looks like when

(51:00):
someone kind of pours into youand teaches you and shows you
what it means to to follow Jesusand to help other people do
that. Mhmm.
So that would so probably him Iput him to the top of the list
as far as after I was an adult,and I could kind of think
through issues and understand,like, you know, what what it's

(51:24):
really all about more about. Andso I think he would be at the
top of that list.

T.J. (51:33):
Did you wanna share his name, or did you wanna leave

Isaac (51:35):
his name? His name is Renny, Renny Ryder. He's not in
the CP church. He he was he wasa second career ministry
minister, started a church. Andjust his passion for the Lord,
man, and passion to to teachpeople.
He was saved as an adult. And,like, his love for Jesus and

(51:55):
evangelism and discipleship, itjust it just kind of oozed out
of

T.J. (51:59):
him. It's contagious to be around those Yes.

Isaac (52:03):
It really, really was. Like and you like, he's one of
those guys where you you you'rearound him for a while and you
think, man, I want that. Give mesome of that, man. Like and so
you just and, yeah, to see thatin him, and that was that was
huge. That was massively huge,and I'm I'm grateful for it,

(52:25):
really.

T.J. (52:26):
I can see in your ministry, you know, as an
outsider looking in, just anobservation that I can see you
walking alongside somebody evenfor a long period of time, in
different seasons of their life,whether, the whether they're a
person of faith or not, justbeing able to kind of disciple

(52:52):
is a word that you use. But I Ithink just be that person to
walk alongside of. And becauseyou have at least you outwardly
exhibit patience and and youhave this, genuine, sincere
sense of caring that that, folkscan sniff through whether you

(53:13):
really care about them or not.And I think those are pretty key
elements, to have that patienceand to to have that caring.
Because, man, life is messy, youknow, and complex, and doesn't
have answers and solutions forall the questions that we have.

(53:34):
And it can be prettyfrustrating, which can then
frustrate you if you're walkingalongside them. Oh, yeah. You're
like, you know, there's no placeof arrival.

Isaac (53:45):
Yeah. And I think that and I think that's what it's
about. I really do. We couldpull it all down. I think that's
what it is.
It's it's not about like, I'm aI'm in the institutional church.
It's what I do. But so often, Ithink we we think that's where
it's all found, right, in thesystems, in the methods, in the

(54:08):
things, but it's not. It's it'sin like, this goes back to what
I mentioned earlier about and Iso could circle back around.
Maybe it's a good time to circlearound back.
This whole idea of authenticityand realness. Like, to walk
alongside people, you have tohave that. You have to be real
with them. And I think there'ssuch great value in that. And

(54:29):
so, like, that's what I try tobe to people.
Just authentic and genuine andreal. What better thing could I
give them? That's better thanall the answers. Right? That's
better than some kind ofplatitudes we have on coffee
cups and hang on our walls.

(54:50):
Let's just be real. And I foundthat people appreciate that so
so much because when it boilsdown to it, I'm just like every
other Jesus follower. I'm justtrying to follow him as best I
can. And do I have questionsabout that? Yeah.
Do I have all the answers? No.Are the things I don't
understand? Of course, thereare. Are there ways that I mess

(55:14):
up a bunch and bad?
Well, certainly. Like, just likejust like all of you do. You
know, just the only reason I'mstanding on this stage preaching
and you're in the pew listeningis because the Lord's all fit to
do that. That's the only reason.It's not because I'm better than
you.
I'm just like you. And so Ithink people appreciate that,
and that's such a huge piece ofdiscipleship and walking

(55:36):
alongside people. And if youcan't give that and offer that,
then then then you can't thenyou can't disciple people. Like,
you shouldn't even be a pastorprobably if you can't give that
if you can't give that topeople, that that realness.

T.J. (55:53):
How how real should we be? How authentic should we be to
the point that, you know, if Idon't like what somebody has
said Mhmm. Or not said or orwhat they've done, how
authentic, how real are you? Areyou one of those that just will
go, hey, you know, DJ, you saidthis. And you didn't ask me, but

(56:17):
I don't like what you said.

Isaac (56:19):
Yeah. See, I I don't know. Yeah. I don't think

T.J. (56:23):
I'm pushing a bit here, you know. Sure.

Isaac (56:25):
Of course. Of course.

T.J. (56:25):
When I hear folks and you did not say this, so this is why
I'm bringing up.

Isaac (56:29):
When I

T.J. (56:29):
hear folks say, well, I'm an open book. Yeah. You know,
ask me anything that you wantto. You know, not just on a
podcast, just in general. Mythoughts are, well, you're not
by saying that.
I don't know. Maybe and so inthat same mindset of, like, how
real, how authentic, you know,because if I'm as real and

(56:53):
authentic as I want to be, I'mgonna go around the entire
planet and just be tellingeverybody what I think about
them or, you know, what they'vedone. And it'll just make the
world at times probably not agreat place. You know?

Isaac (57:06):
Yeah. Yeah.

T.J. (57:07):
They're just Not

Isaac (57:08):
yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't yeah. I don't mean be a jerk.
Right? We we don't we don'twanna be a jerk to people. So
there are times you keep thingsto yourself. But but when I say
be real, be authentic, it justmeans it just means show your
struggles. Right?
I have struggles just like you.You know, I think that's what we

(57:30):
mean by authentic because somany pastors and ministry
leaders are not that. Mhmm.Like, in you know, there's a
whole there's a 1,000 page listof pastors and ministry leaders
who have fallen because theywere they were living a double
life. They weren't being honest,you know, for whatever the
reasons were.
And so that's what I mean bybeing authentic and real. Just

(57:53):
like I'm just like one of you.And and and sometimes maybe you
should share a little more thanyou think you should. Like, I
give this example. When I firstgot to Smithfield, like, I am a
I'm more of an introvert than anextrovert, And not so much that
I I I do fine in crowds.

(58:15):
I do fine with people. But thereare times and this is a
personality thing. My my fam alot of my family is like a lot
of the men in my dad's side offamily are like this as well.
Like, there are times when Ijust want people to leave me
alone. Right?
So I would tell my church folks,like and this is this is in the
early days of us getting to knoweach other. And I would tell

(58:36):
them, like, there are times whenI don't wanna be around you all.
And listen, it's not because ofyou. It's because of me. For
example, like, there are times,like, when we have a potluck
meal.
What I want to do is get my foodand go sit in the corner, eat it
by myself, and not talk to anyof you people. Not because I
don't like you. I love you.You're awesome. I just don't

(58:59):
like talking to anybody rightnow.
So just leave me alone. Youenjoy yourselves. Have your
meals together. Talk and have agreat time. I'm fine.
Again, it's not you. It it's me.And so that's what I think I
mean by just be real. Just behonest. You know?
Just tell people I'm just likeyou. And I think another another

(59:21):
thing too is, like, being realin bible studies and sermons.
There are times, TJ, I'm sure mypeople, when we're in Bible
study, I say I don't know somuch. They probably just wanna
smack me. I don't know theanswer to the question you're
asking.
I I've even said that sermonstoo before. Like, you know, if
we're talking through an issue,whatever it may be, some people

(59:43):
say this about this. I don'tknow what the right answer is.
I'm not really sure. So you justhave to be okay with that, but I
don't have an answer for youtoday.
And I think people appreciatethat. I really do.

T.J. (59:54):
Oh, yeah. I mean, to be able to raise questions that we
don't have an answer to enlargesthe question to others who may
be wondering the same thing.Maybe it's never crossed their
mind before. And so then itbecomes a shared question for
those who wanna pick it up andmake it their own. Mhmm.
Oh, yeah. And maybe, just maybe,there's a solution among the

(01:00:16):
community or at least there'scomfort in knowing that, hey,
others don't know either. Mhmm.Yeah. Yeah.
Because the alternative is justsilence. You know? You know,
which Yeah. Which silence,quietness can be good. Yes.
But, you know, it's theemperor's new clothes. You know?

(01:00:37):
So, I mean, nobody wants tostate the obvious.

Isaac (01:00:40):
Right. Right.

T.J. (01:00:43):
Yeah. We have talked a whole lot about, the church. And
I pulled out a book last nightwhen I got home, off the shelf,
and I was revisiting. It iscalled The Last Years of the
Church. Mhmm.
And I was like, well, that'sinteresting. I'd read it a long

(01:01:04):
time ago, and then I don't know.I was picking it back up just
because the title was catchy forme. The Last Years of the
Church. Yeah.
Well, before we begin thisconversation, I was flipping
through it. I was like, when wasthis thing written? And it was
in 1969.

Isaac (01:01:19):
Oh, wow.

T.J. (01:01:20):
So in 1969, there was discussions about last year's as
a church. Oh, yeah. Last year'sas a church. Yeah. Yeah.
Church is dying. Church is youknow?

Isaac (01:01:30):
Oh, yeah. You're still here. Uh-huh.

T.J. (01:01:31):
It's on life support.

Isaac (01:01:33):
Yep.

T.J. (01:01:33):
So that is our bridge to, the Cumberland Presbyterian
Church, the Christian church,the universal church. Talk more
about that, Isaac. How you fitin? What are your hopes for the
church presently and in thefuture, and and where do you fit

(01:01:55):
into the changing ministry,which church has always been
changing Mhmm. Mhmm.
In the coming years?

Isaac (01:02:05):
Yeah. Oh, man. That's a big question, TJ. Where do I fit
in the church? And I think it goback goes back to what I said.
I'm just another person tryingto do my part. I don't have
visions of grandeur, but alsodon't have visions of I'm a

(01:02:26):
nobody. I'm just trying tofollow Jesus and and do my part
in in in the big c church, inthe big picture church, and in
my in my local church. And andright now, of course, in the
local church, it looks like meleading people. It's like me
pointing people to Jesus,getting their eyes off of me,

(01:02:50):
off the pastor, even off theinstitutional church and onto
Jesus and His work and Hiskingdom.
So I'm trying to just find my mylittle piece in that, my little
corner to do what God's calledme to do in this season of life
and, of course, it may change in20 years. Who knows? I mean, we

(01:03:10):
we have no clue. But just do mypart right now and that and my
part looks like Smithville,Tennessee with with my with my
church, my good folks, trying toconnect people with with the one
who can change them with Jesusand reach out to people in need.
And and yeah.

(01:03:30):
I mean, that's not that's not abig answer. That may seem like a
cop out answer, but that'sreally what it is. Like, I I try
not to get like you said earlyon, like, all we have is the
here and the now. We just havethe present. That that that's
it.
So let's live in it. And and notand not that we don't look
forward, son. Not that we'renot, you know, trying to vision

(01:03:53):
3, 5 years down the road for thechurch, but let's not get too
ahead of ourselves looking toofar ahead, or let's not get too
caught up in the past on whatthings used to be. Like, how's
the Lord using me now in my dayto day life as I go to the
coffee shop and the grocerystore? And sometimes it looks

(01:04:15):
like conversation, sometimes itlooks like a passing hello or
whatever, sometimes it may looklike a service project, you
know.
So, yeah, I'm just trying to domy part, really.

T.J. (01:04:26):
And then how can God use me tomorrow or next month or
next year?

Isaac (01:04:31):
Yeah.

T.J. (01:04:32):
So there's something to be said for that forward thinking,
you know, and it's hopeful aswell Yeah. Of what is to

Isaac (01:04:41):
come. Certainly.

T.J. (01:04:42):
I don't know. It is the unknown.

Isaac (01:04:44):
Yeah. But

T.J. (01:04:45):
that doesn't mean that I can't lean into it with
anticipation

Isaac (01:04:49):
Sure. Sure.

T.J. (01:04:50):
Or dread. I guess it's your choice. I choose
anticipation that it it will begood as long as I have breath

Isaac (01:04:58):
Mhmm.

T.J. (01:04:59):
It will be good.

Isaac (01:05:00):
Yeah. Yeah. That that that's true. And yeah, and and
and it and just walking thatfine line between not getting
too far ahead Mhmm. But notbeing stuck stuck here.
Mhmm. Right? And and I'm at apoint now, like, my ministry in

(01:05:21):
life, like, I can't see beyond Ican't see beyond this phase of
ministry right now. Mhmm. Like,the Lord's not given it to me.
Now, you know, there are timesin your life where you can you
can you're in a season you cankinda see the end. Like, you're
like, I know it's coming. Butfor now, it's like, I I I can't
see past this past what I'mdoing right now

T.J. (01:05:42):
Right.

Isaac (01:05:43):
This church.

T.J. (01:05:44):
And I'm also asking a man who is in, statistically the
middle of his life. Mhmm. Youknow, your lifespan, mine as
well. Yeah. This this is themiddle.

Isaac (01:05:57):
Yeah.

T.J. (01:05:58):
And and so, you know, we hope to double the number that
we currently are or come closeto it. Yeah. So it's this
pivotal time of being able togo, I've got good, fond memories
of things of the past and howare they informing now and into
the future. So I think where weare in our season of life, I

(01:06:23):
think is how we answer this.Answer the question, I think it
pertains.
And Yeah. The church as aninstitution, you know, a voice I
mean, it's a loaded questionevery time I ask it. It is but
I'm interested in it. You know,a voice shaping the church with
a capital c or any particulardenomination is well, it's rare.

(01:06:50):
Yeah.
You know, and especially in theCumberland Presbyterian Church,
it's never a single voice. We'renot built. We're not structured
that way. And so, it is, youknow, the many voices who Mhmm.
Help shape ministry and providea witness to the world.

(01:07:12):
Yeah.

Isaac (01:07:12):
And that and that's and that's what I mean. I just wanna
do my part.

T.J. (01:07:15):
I can you

Isaac (01:07:16):
know, and and just think about the the church the
description Paul gives to thechurch in Corinthians and
Romans, like one body, manyparts. You know, like, I'll be
an eyeball or a pinky finger oran not an appendix. They get
taken out. You know, whatever itmay be. I just do my part.

(01:07:37):
Mhmm. And I try to

T.J. (01:07:41):
I just know that mine won't be the music part. So
it'll just be some other part ofthe body that

Isaac (01:07:46):
There's lots of other people who can do that part.

T.J. (01:07:48):
Absolutely. And do it

Isaac (01:07:49):
really well. Gotta be covered TJ. Gotta be covered.

T.J. (01:07:52):
Well, I get the benefit of it because I don't have to
practice it. Mhmm. I don't haveto learn it.

Isaac (01:07:57):
That's true.

T.J. (01:07:58):
I get the end result. And Mhmm. And it's pretty good.

Isaac (01:08:02):
Yep. Yeah.

T.J. (01:08:04):
Alright. I mentioned earlier, a book that I picked up
off the shelf. What are youreading? And what do you
recommend to folks in who are inthe Christian faith?

Isaac (01:08:17):
Well, currently, I'm reading Pilgrim's Progress. I've
read it before, I believe. I'mat least part of it. Mhmm. I am
not an avid reader.
I'm really not. Well, I want toseminary burned me out on
reading, and I have notrecovered almost 17 years later.

T.J. (01:08:40):
It's really Okay. Alright. I just found it such a joy to be
able to pick whatever I wantedto read.

Isaac (01:08:47):
Oh, yeah. But and so I I kept to force myself to read
sometimes. I'm jealous. I'mjealous when I listen to your
podcast and you ask thisquestion, and people tick off
books. You know, they've beenreading.
They've read 4 or 5 or 6. Not Istruggle to get through 1 in a
in a year. It's like, oh, man.So it's a struggle for me, but I

(01:09:08):
am currently reading Pilgrim'sProgress. And I'll tell you what
I found is the older I get, TJ,the more I wanna the more I
kinda ascribe to the theory.
Read the dead guys. Read readthe dudes who were dead and the
and the ladies who were dead whowho who were still reading their
stuff. Like because that meansit was good. Mhmm. Mhmm.

(01:09:29):
That it's substantial stuff.

T.J. (01:09:32):
Mhmm.

Isaac (01:09:33):
You know, the Spurgeon's and the Tozers and, you know,
the the the Bunyan's, like,let's read the let's read those
people. Because and they canjust the way they say things are
so eloquent and amazing. And Ithink, man, I wish I could talk
like that. When I hear Charleswhen I heard Spurgeon give a
quote on preaching, I think,man, I wish I could talk that
eloquently, to be honest.

T.J. (01:09:55):
Alright. Let me ask you another question. So what are
you practicing music wise?

Isaac (01:10:01):
What am I practicing music wise?

T.J. (01:10:03):
Mhmm.

Isaac (01:10:04):
What do you mean practicing music wise?

T.J. (01:10:05):
In terms of your next song, your next melody, you
know, so if it's not reading.

Isaac (01:10:13):
Yeah. It's nothing. I'm not musically inclined enough.
We talk

T.J. (01:10:17):
Okay.

Isaac (01:10:18):
To to know what's next.

T.J. (01:10:20):
Alright. I'm gonna dig real deep here then. Uh-oh. So,
where when is your next hike?

Isaac (01:10:27):
I don't know. It's 2b2bd. TBD. Okay. I don't know.
But I have I have found that Ienjoy that quite a bit. That is
one thing that I've gotten alittle older Mhmm. Which is
unfortunate. I think, man, Iwish I could've done this when I
was 24 instead of almost 44. Mygood grief, plus my body hurts
somehow.
So we'll have to we'll have tosee about that. Alright. I'll

(01:10:50):
let you know how it goes.

T.J. (01:10:51):
Okay. Alright. I I I've thought of a redeeming question.
Redeeming on my end. Isaac, howwill you spend your next
Sabbath?

Isaac (01:11:01):
Well, that's a TBD too. I kinda those are kinda spur of
the moments. They really are.You know? Sometimes I'll have a
few things like my Sabbathyesterday, it was spent by
taking my son on a college tour.
So that's how it was spentyesterday. So so my Sabbath is
not like a I just really, reallyrest. My Sabbath is I get away
from the church.

T.J. (01:11:21):
Alright.

Isaac (01:11:22):
I don't know if that's cheating the process. I'm not I
don't think it is. It isshutting down that that side of
it.

T.J. (01:11:29):
What would be an ideal Sabbath for you?

Isaac (01:11:35):
An ideal Sabbath. Well, I mean, yeah, a good day hiking
and camping, that's a goodthat's a good Sabbath. Mhmm. My
wife and I a good Sabbath wouldbe like a week at the beach. We
love going to the beach.
So that's a good Sabbath. Agood, a a a a day with a a

(01:11:55):
friend from seminary or collegethat I've not seen in 4, 5, 6, 7
years, that'd be a good Sabbath.Alright. Rekindling those
connections.

T.J. (01:12:04):
Yeah.

Isaac (01:12:04):
That'd be good stuff.

T.J. (01:12:06):
Isaac, thank you so much for sitting down and and your
willingness to talk with me. Ireally appreciate your here in
the moment and your focus ongratitude and, your sense of
humor and, obviously, your giftin music. People are gonna
listen to this and think thatyou're some great composer

(01:12:27):
because we cannot

Isaac (01:12:28):
come up that music. Impression, DJ. Right. If you're
listening, people do not call mefor music stuff. I'm not that
guy.

T.J. (01:12:36):
But you can be that guy.

Isaac (01:12:39):
Very small. Very small.

T.J. (01:12:41):
Isaac, again, thank you for doing this.

Isaac (01:12:43):
Well, you're welcome, TJ. My pleasure.

T.J. (01:12:47):
Thank you for joining me on this journey of Cumberland
Road. Isaac and I brieflydiscussed the importance of
taking a Sabbath. In closing, Ishare some words from Walter
Brueggemann. Sabbath is thecelebration of life beyond and

(01:13:07):
outside productivity. Thanks forlistening.