Jamie Adams - The Pivot - Cumberland Road

Episode Transcript
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T.J. (00:03):
Welcome to The Cumberland Road where I have conversations
about how one's faith impactstheir lives. I'm your host, TJ
Malinoski. The followingconversation is with Jamie
Adams, a minister, a schoolteacher, and an entrepreneur. In

(00:27):
discussing her faith, she opensherself up, revealing the
rawness that life brings,bearing her challenges and
struggles in family, in herfaith, in her career. I hope you
appreciate her openness to shareher journey. Here is my

(00:49):
conversation with Jamie Adams.
Jamie, when we were talking onphone and scheduling this faith
conversation, I asked you thequestion, how did you and I
never cross paths before in theCumberland Presbyterian Church?

(01:10):
Because we're around the sameage and and lived in the same
state general area. So let'spick up from there. Again, I
don't know how we how we havenever crossed paths until, I
guess, the last couple of years.

Jamie (01:28):
Right. That is a good question. And I've wondered that
too. But I can say that did youmentioned you grew up and you

(01:48):
were like knew I wanted likewent to college already of the
mindset to going to seminary andlike that was your that's your
walk.

T.J. (01:59):
Yeah.

Jamie (01:59):
Mine Mine was probably more I had a childhood where I
guess I was moderately. I wasn'tquite a Easter Christmas only

(02:21):
church goer But I wasn'tespecially not with my family. I
wasn't there all the time. But Idid. I went to church camp like
Camp Clark Williamson.
And but not any of the biggerthings like that. I I was yeah.

(02:45):
I don't know. Just largely nottrustful of people

T.J. (02:53):
for I'm only laughing because I'm reading your facial
expressions. Not that you saidanything funny. No, It's a
preemptive laugh of like, okay,something funny is gonna come
up.

Jamie (03:05):
Well, yeah, that's that's probably how I ended up being I
I it's just a big big conversionon this side of it because now,
I'm almost like Buddy the Elf.I'm like, oh my god, all these
people. I love them so much.Even the ones that aren't great.

(03:26):
I'm also trying really hard notto say any cuss words.
Terrible habit I have. But

T.J. (03:34):
Alright. And Jamie, you be you like every guest before you
and after you. I want them to bethemselves. So

Jamie (03:43):
Well, I also try to not say cuss words when I'm at
church preaching and when I'mteaching at school. So that is
me.

T.J. (03:50):
That's probably, probably a good habit.

Jamie (03:53):
Yes. No. Yeah. But anyway, they I, yeah, I didn't
there's so many ways withoutunless we, you want to go there.
Like, I just had like the kindof childhood and experiences
I've had.
I was distrustful of people. So,I liked to what I found out is I

(04:19):
think I was always an extrovertbut I was raised to be
introverted and so I had thisweird sort of evolution. Like,
of how I was, maybe truly how Iwas, but then how I was taught I

(04:41):
needed to be. And I didn'tsocialize a whole lot.

T.J. (04:45):
I With

Jamie (04:47):
And so

T.J. (04:47):
with peers and adults?

Jamie (04:50):
Right. It was a one man show.

T.J. (04:53):
Okay.

Jamie (04:54):
Definitely. But I knew what I liked, like, circling
back to church things. There wasI don't know if you remember.
Did you grow up in theCumberland Church?

T.J. (05:10):
Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah.

Jamie (05:11):
So, I don't know if your church did this. I went to a
very tiny, teeny weeny countrychurch in Troy, Tennessee and
they had this thing where youcould get pens when you attended
Sunday school And first you gotlike a little bronze pen and
then it might have been a silverone. And then if you went for a

(05:35):
whole year it was a full colorpen. And then if multiple years
you got like a wreath and yougot these little badges to hang
down. So you could wear thismetal that's like, I've been to
Sunday school every day for tenyears or whatever and I don't
know.
It just happened to be. I feltto into church on a one of those

(05:58):
Sundays when they awarded them.And I was like, holy hell. I
need those in my life. Like, nomatter what.
And, again, my parents aren'tsuper going to church a lot or
anything. So I found a one ofthe older ladies that went to
church, and she came and pickedme up and took me. So I could go
every day for a year to get thefull color pen and start my

(06:23):
journey of, like, Boy Scoutbadges for this Sunday school.

T.J. (06:28):
How old do you think you were when you had that moment
of, like, I want that?

Jamie (06:33):
I was probably I'm gonna guess around third grade. So
what would that be? Like, aneight year old?

T.J. (06:44):
Yeah. Seven. I think it

Jamie (06:46):
was about eight. That's also when I got spayed.

T.J. (06:50):
Okay.

Jamie (06:51):
And, okay, I say that in air quotes that you listeners
won't be able to see but I've Ilove I have a love hate with
salvation stories becauseeverybody has such cool and
here's my perspective. Everybodyhas such cool and amazing

(07:14):
salvation stories. It's like,you got the apostle Paul up here
and then everybody else and theyjust have these beautiful
stories where they were somewonderful place and had some
just enormous welling offeelings and stuff and it's it's

(07:36):
just a great story for them. Andpeople I've heard in years of
people giving testimonies oftheir salvation story and how
great it was. And then I thoughtabout mine.
And they were like do youremember when you were saved?
And I was like yeah I guess. AndI was like well tell me about

(08:00):
it. And I said well the all ofthe kids from my church got on
our does we went to we hadvacation bible schools. And, you
know, that wasn't it wasn't likea big sing a bunch of songs,
make some crafts, whatever.
That's what I was used to. Butthen I I was like a church

(08:28):
junkie at this point. It myeight year old self. And this
other church in town had a busthat was all painted up, and it
was driving around picking kidsup so they could go to Vacation
Bible School there. And I intelling this, I don't know why

(08:49):
my mom just let me go all theseplaces, but I did.
I just got on the bus myself.

T.J. (08:55):
Well, it was a different time.

Jamie (08:57):
It was a different time.

T.J. (08:58):
It was a different time. So

Jamie (08:59):
And she had two younger kids, so she had her hands full.
Anyway So you I get on this bus

T.J. (09:05):
to go. You get on the the Muppet bus. Do you remember the
The

Jamie (09:09):
Mayhem. The yeah. Like, the Muppet Mayhem

T.J. (09:13):
Yeah.

Jamie (09:13):
Band buzz. I've got a glass upstairs. Those are my
only drinking glasses. TheMuppets glasses that McDonald
put out. Yes.
Nothing to do with this story.But fun fact. It has

T.J. (09:29):
it has everything to do with this story. So Oh. Well,
you said colorful bus in mymind's eye. That's what I Yeah.
That's my reference point

Jamie (09:40):
Mhmm.

T.J. (09:41):
For a colorful bus.

Jamie (09:43):
Mhmm. Well, anyhow, I'm on this bus, and I'm going to a
church here in town. And I go tovacation bible school that week,
and I don't remember anythingabout what we learned or what we
did or had don't remember anygreat feelings of anything when

(10:05):
my dog came up here, but this isthe quiet one. Anyway, the
Friday comes, the the last day.And they pulled one of those
we're going to sing this lastsong over and over and over

(10:27):
again until people raise theirhands and they're doing the
whole thing.
Somebody in here, you know,we've had a lot of Jesus this
week, and somebody doesn't knowJesus all the way. And I'm
praying that somebody will praythis prayer, and they go on, and
they're saying this. And we'resinging

T.J. (10:46):
And this is the first time you've heard

Jamie (10:49):
my first experience with this kind of Okay. Stuff. And
then so I'm doing, you know,like, trying to be, like, with
every head bow and eye closedand stuff. I remember it so
well. And we're just stillsinging.
And I I remember thinking I'mlike how many times are we going

(11:11):
to sing this song? And then andthen the preacher is like when
we I I know we're getting readyto have our lunch and hot dogs
and lemonade but I just know Ifeel that somebody in here, you
know, they're doing the thingand so, I'm like, man, I want

(11:31):
some hot dogs and lemonade. So,I raised my hand and some ladies
take me to the back and I thinkI really think we're in a
bathroom and like, I'm in astall and this lady's in the
stall beside me talking to meand telling me to say these
prayer, like, some words. Idon't know. Probably a prayer

(11:52):
that saved my soul.
But anyway

T.J. (11:55):
Okay. Alright. Now hold on. Hold on.

Jamie (11:57):
No. Yes.

T.J. (11:58):
Alright. So I can visualize everything except for
the

Jamie (12:03):
The bathroom part.

T.J. (12:05):
Stalls being used as a confessional booth.

Jamie (12:07):
I don't know. But, like, in my memory, that's what it
was. I know that she wasn't,like, looking at me. There she
was like, it was like a separatething and I don't but I
distinctly remember this. Andmaybe there were multiple kids,

(12:28):
maybe some others, and she wasjust, like, trying to talk to
all of us at the same time orsomething.
I don't know. But, also, I waseight, and now I'm 48. So

T.J. (12:39):
Well, it's interesting

Jamie (12:40):
Either way.

T.J. (12:41):
You have placed it in time Yes. In a women's restroom in
the stalls.

Jamie (12:45):
Yes. It it was with a lady, and it was and I do
remember repeating a prayerafter her.

T.J. (12:52):
Mhmm.

Jamie (12:53):
And then whatever. We have hot dogs. We go home. And
then it was like, no big deal. Ididn't feel any different.
I didn't have any magical powersor any grandiose insight. And I

(13:13):
remember like that night athome, my mom asking, you know,
like, well, what'd you learnabout it bible school? And yeah,
I'm eating my spaghetti orwhatever it is I'm eating and
just like, oh yeah, you know, welearned about Jesus and this and
this and I I got saved and andthen, you know, I'm just like,

(13:33):
still eating like, no big deal.And I remember her kind of panic
freaking out and I, do you knowwhat that means? Oh my god.
Like, she's super serious aboutit and I didn't but that's my
salvation story. That is how Igot saved. Mostly because I

(13:54):
wanted the song to stop and Iwanted hot dogs and lemonade.
And I thought I was taking onefor the team. So we could get on
with our life.

T.J. (14:02):
Okay. So to recap, you started to attend church
regularly from a competitivenature.

Jamie (14:13):
Yes.

T.J. (14:14):
So that you could earn badges and

Jamie (14:16):
Yes.

T.J. (14:17):
Pins and and stuff. And then a colorful bus attracted
you to Vacation Bible School.

Jamie (14:24):
Yes. At a non CP church. I will say that. It was just a a
different church here in town,but whatever. Doesn't matter.

T.J. (14:34):
Without being dismissive, to that experience, obviously,
groundwork was laid there. Therewas obviously a foundation.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Because being able toacknowledge seven, eight, nine

Jamie (14:50):
Mhmm.

T.J. (14:51):
That there is power out there that's larger than you,
that's that's kind of difficult.I mean, it's just at that age
where you're realizing that theworld doesn't rotate like around
you.

Jamie (15:06):
Mhmm.

T.J. (15:06):
You know? And so no, I don't I think there's something
extraordinary in the ordinary.

Jamie (15:14):
I I can buy that. And I obviously that is that's my
that's my story and I'm stickingto I mean, you know, like, I
could cite other things or timesin my life where I had more
whatever traditional sort ofexperiences but I do think like

(15:40):
definitely my first that yearand that time in my life is when
I first remember being I justfired up about church. Even if
the motives weren't exactly thebest, it it was. It was a seed.
It was it was a thing for meanyway.

T.J. (16:03):
Well, Jamie, I've always treated this podcast when I
introduce it and talk about it.I use the phrase faith journey,
you know, like there's not adestination and sometimes
there's not a beginning point.Depending on who the person is.
Yeah. And how God works withthem.

(16:23):
So I I you know, look, I know wewere having fun and adding
commentary to the beginning partof your journey. I do stand by
that is there is foundationthere. There's something there.
Especially looking, and we'llget to this later, where you are

(16:45):
now and what you're doing now.Alright.
When you were a little girl,Jamie, you're a school teacher
now. Did you want to be a schoolteacher? What were you thinking
about I

Jamie (16:58):
did when I was very young.

T.J. (17:02):
Mhmm.

Jamie (17:03):
So, like, my first grade teacher was a lady named miss
Barnes whom I loved dearly. Ijust thought she was beautiful
and just loved me the best ofanybody and I'm sure every
student felt that way in herclass and I loved learning which

(17:28):
is and that that was my firstexperience. I didn't go to
kindergarten. But my first gradeteacher, I was like, yes, I
wanna be a teacher just likemiss Barnes. That's not in my
DNA to be like that kind offirst grade teacher.

(17:48):
I taught first grade last year,and I thought, oh my gosh. How
does anybody stay in a room withthis many six year olds? Keep
them entertained and teach themthings but I'm more of a middle
school, high school kind ofpersonality, I think. But but

(18:09):
yeah, I did. I didn't alwayswant to be a teacher though.
I have in changed I changedgears a lot in what I do. Like,

(18:32):
in telling my story with otherpeople, some have noticed.
They're like, oh, every fiveyears, you do something like
crazy different.

T.J. (18:41):
Well, crazy different as in, like, a contrast?

Jamie (18:45):
Like, possibly. Yes. So maybe I wanted to be a teacher,
and then I'm like, no. I wannabe a lawyer and then, as a child
later, when I was in highschool, I thought I wanted to be
like a scientist or some kind ofresearch. I was really

(19:06):
interested in genetics or likebiochemical engineering kind of
stuff.
I I mean, I graduated the sameyear they cloned Dolly the
sheep. You know, I just thoughtthat kind of of stuff was really
fascinating. But then even afterthat, so when I obviously, when

(19:36):
I had my son, I was pregnant mysenior year of high school.
Like, those plans changeddrastically.

T.J. (19:43):
Okay. That is a big contrast.

Jamie (19:45):
That is a big contrast. Right. Then even after that so,
you know, at that point, I'mlike, almost like my Sunday
school self. I'm like, okay. NowI've got something to prove.
Like, here I am 18 with a kid,so let's not screw this up.

(20:08):
We're gonna be not just okay,but I you know, it'll be the
smartest, most amazing, mostwell round you know, like, I'm
game on. Everything else off thetable. This is what I'm doing.

T.J. (20:23):
Alright. Looking back on yourself Yes. How well did you
do?

Jamie (20:31):
Well, he's almost 30. He's probably he's definitely
his own person. I mean, he'ssuccessful. He's got two kids
and

T.J. (20:42):
Alright.

Jamie (20:44):
You know, living his best life. So my my goals were pretty
simple that, like, he he wassmart in his you know, he got he
didn't get a lot of accolades.He wasn't driven that way, but
he's his intelligence isevidence, like, pretty clearly

(21:05):
evident.

T.J. (21:08):
You made it. You were a good mom. You

Jamie (21:12):
He survived into adulthood, and he's a functional
adult.

T.J. (21:16):
Yeah. That's I was asking. I guess I was asking more
directly towards you. You setthis goal for your 18 year old
self. Yes.
I'm gonna come out on top. I'mgonna be a good mom. I'm gonna,
you know, shake the world Mhmm.As all 18 year olds want to do.
And I'm gonna shake the worldwith a baby in my arm.

(21:38):
That's what I was asking. Didyou do it? Were you able did you
achieve it?

Jamie (21:44):
I I think I did. I think I did. I feel good about it. And
if I'm fast forwarding in thetimeline, I think that and then,
you know, I have my son and thenmy daughter about four years
after that too. So but I thinkand that's that's an empty

(22:08):
nester thing.
The empty nest is a real thingwhen your kids grow up and are
gone. But I think for me,personally, I always had like
this carrot in front of me thatlike, you know, like, that that

(22:28):
I put there myself, not thatother people were imposing on me
but when I didn't haveeverything I did after that was
for the, you know, it's like goto college. So, like, I think I
flunked out of college sort ofthe first time, but I, to be

(22:49):
fair, I tried to go as a fulltime student. Matthew was born
at the June, like, that August.

T.J. (22:59):
Oh, okay. So this is, like Yeah. Right out of high school.
New mom.

Jamie (23:04):
Mhmm.

T.J. (23:05):
Learning parenthood and then getting into college full
time.

Jamie (23:11):
Right.

T.J. (23:11):
Good grief. Okay.

Jamie (23:13):
Yeah.

T.J. (23:13):
Okay.

Jamie (23:14):
And I thought I was still gonna study the science path
thing too, and I flunkedbiology, which was a low blow
for me. Never failed anythingbefore. And then, like, I had

(23:36):
another class that I aced allthe tests, but they flunked me
because I'd missed too manydays. Like, they had a really
strict attendance policy. Iremember it was a art history
class.

T.J. (23:51):
Okay.

Jamie (23:51):
And that teacher did not like when I suggested that his
lectures must not have been thatimportant if I could ace the
test without attending thelectures.

T.J. (24:07):
And I I'm I'm laughing because as you're telling this,
and I don't know you, but youreyebrows have gone up, your
cheeks have risen, and you youhave kind of a grin on your
face. And I'm just I'm alreadychuckling because I'm like,
okay. How far is Jamie gonna gowith this story? You know, I'm
kind of excited to hear Play

Jamie (24:26):
right, man, because I can talk a lot about nothing.

T.J. (24:34):
So, you took a break.

Jamie (24:36):
Oh, I did. I was put on academic probation. So, I was
like, mess with all that. Don'tcare. And will change and you
know, I'm also a new wife atthis point too with without
going into a whole lot The kid'sdad, this isn't like my high

(25:01):
school boyfriend and we what itwas not somebody I knew very
well at all and like, our firstdate was probably our like, go
out to dinner and was probablyour wedding night, like, for

(25:23):
real.
So, you know, I'm just decide,okay, I'm going throw myself
into stay at home mom dumb kindof and like be this picture
perfect wife. Martha Stewart wasreal big and being Martha
Stewart. So I get her booksbecause the Internet wasn't

(25:47):
really so big yet unless youwanted to pay per minute to be
online.

T.J. (25:53):
And for those for those who are listening, we've now
moved from the eighties to thenineteen nineties. Yes.

Jamie (26:00):
Yes. And I so I tried to just be perfect, perfect wife,
perfect mom, you know, all thosethings and I'm not real good at

(26:21):
that. Just leave it at that. Isuspect no one is, but at the
time, I felt like I was the onlyone that was not good at that.
Okay.
But I tried so many ways and mybrand of trying would be to make

(26:44):
lists. If you could think solike a computer software might
have databases that build offeach other and feed into
different things. I had thepaper form of that in notebooks.
And I would make lists ofwhatever, how to keep the house.

(27:08):
But then there might be a subsetlist somewhere else in the
notebook.
And then in that effort to beperfect, I mean, these are
detailed lists. Like, it mightbe like the perfect things that
I needed to have in my purse sothat I had everything everybody
might need around me to loanthem. And the perfect things to

(27:31):
have for your kids and to do foryour husband and, like and I'd
get it

T.J. (27:36):
you always been like this?

Jamie (27:38):
Yes.

T.J. (27:39):
Even as a kid, you Mhmm. Were very methodical and
categorizing kind of your doesthis go into, like, your daily
schedule as well?

Jamie (27:49):
Oh, yeah. Yeah. So I'm sitting here today in 2025. I do
I have my dailies that I do, andit's lists with varying recur
some things are legitimate dailythat you do every day. Some of

(28:12):
them are every other day orweekly or bimonthly or
semiannually.
I have I perfected it. Thankyou, technology. But yeah.

T.J. (28:24):
And that makes sense. I mean, if you're goal oriented,
you know, we kinda started Ididn't know this conversation
was gonna be, like,chronological linear, and that's
fine.

Jamie (28:33):
That's because that's how my brain works.

T.J. (28:34):
That's fine. But, you know, I mean, in terms of goal
setting, you need action stepsfor goals to accomplish them.
You need timelines to be able toaccomplish those, you know, and
how flexible you are inyourself. I mean, that's between
Jamie and Jamie, but

Jamie (28:52):
Not at all. I'm not at all flex. I'm better now.

T.J. (28:55):
That stuff makes sense. I want to okay. So now I'm gonna
kind of prod and you push backif you like. So does that
translate also into like yourrelationships and maybe even the
conversations that you have inthose relationships of like what

(29:16):
you're what you're going to talkabout. You know, I I guess I'm
asking, you know, given you'vealso.

Jamie (29:25):
No, I'm not a robot and I'm not AI generated. No. No.
No. No.
No. No. Brain processes might bevery close. I had I think it

(29:46):
used to a lot more than it doesnow. I can say and that's kind
of and I was going somewherewhen I was talking about the
lists and the band perfect butlike in my like I think about in

(30:10):
my marriage.
I was doing this to try to bethe best whatever, best wife,
best mom, whatever. And Iremember one time when my
husband then found thosenotebooks. And he was horrified.
And he was like, are you somekind of serial killer? Like,

(30:33):
what is this mess of lists uponlists upon lists and and I was
like, oh, it's nothing.
It's just how I need, you know,it's just how things work and I
can say then, like, in mytwenties and thirties, I was

(31:00):
much less flexible about thelike I might know this is the
list and it was like the stonetablets. But I'm not throwing
these down and breaking them. Weare following them. We're going
to follow them in order and theybetter happen this way and I
probab but it was all in mymind. It was in a way to just

(31:22):
make things better.
And it's like assess and refineand, you know, observe, assess,
refine like, I changed my majorto computer science when I went
back to college, which probablymakes a lot of sense because
that is my brain. But I I wouldhave a list, like, with times

(31:49):
and schedules of what was thebest possible time for everybody
to do everything. But it was alot, you know, if to dry your
hair from, you know, 06:42 to06:48 and then put the dryer
away so you have time to do thenext thing.

T.J. (32:09):
Yeah. I would think that would be challenging, especially
with two one or two smallchildren in the house where
Yeah. You know, a lot of thingsyou get started and then you
have to put it aside and comeback to it later.

Jamie (32:22):
Yes.

T.J. (32:24):
Did you use your note taking or do you use your note
taking in your list and like goback and assess, you know, like
the the week or the day's eventsor last year? It did you use
them as, like, a referencepoint?

Jamie (32:38):
Like a journal kind of. Not then, really. And now,
they've evolved when I was 40let's see. I've been divorced

(33:04):
for five years now. And as soonas I got divorced, I was like,
I'm getting some therapy.
COVID started too. So, there wasa lot that needed to be unpacked
and especially being a ministerduring the time of COVID was I
understand the challenge forpastors everywhere because we

(33:27):
were stripped of our way topastor. And it so anyhow, I'm
doing therapy and unpackingthings with my therapist who I
still I still have the sametherapist. Five years later,
like, would encourage anybodyand everybody to have a

(33:48):
therapist and to like, I thinkthat somebody like that to talk
to and to unpack with. I wish Iwish when babies were born, they
got a pediatrician and atherapist.
I like, I think it's thatimportant but I when I'm talking

(34:09):
with her, maybe about two yearsin and we've gotten to the point
where I confess about my listsand all the things and how I I
used to just it's like it throwsa code in my brain. Like, if

(34:35):
some I'm routine driven. And ifsomething even though I may not
have it, like, on the fridgesaying this is the gospel way to
follow things, You you could seta clock to what I'm doing when
every day. Pretty much. If youhad some way of like watching
like some the Truman Show orsomething.

(34:56):
You know, like, oh, well, hereit is. It's, you know, 06:48.
Jamie's turning on the news andwalking by that whatever. When
something doesn't work, it I Ifreeze and stop and it's like, I
cannot proceed until I fix this.Like, and then I'm late for work

(35:18):
because I had to fix theinternet because the TV wouldn't
come on and anyway, I'm talkingabout all these things in my
list and my therapist was like,do you think that you might have
ADHD?
Like, and I think we're prettyconfident that the answer to

(35:39):
that is yes. And it's never beennoticed or diagnosed until, you
know, half a century old. Butit's a yes. It has impacted my
relationships because I I justhave like I think my brain works

(36:04):
differently than the averagebrain maybe. And I use these
lists now and these routines.
Now, they're more like a saferedirecting tool So, I can say

(36:24):
like, okay. I need, like, theseaccolades or this motivation or
whatever. I also need to turnthe light on. Sorry. That's how

(36:45):
I do.
I need these I need what I calllow hanging fruits. Like, I feel
like I've accomplished somethingtoday, but I also need I
condense it to the importantthings.

T.J. (37:05):
Yeah.

Jamie (37:05):
So that when my brain chases rabbits somewhere else
and and I can so I can catchmyself. Right, Jamie? You have
to go to work and you havestudents to teach that are gonna
be walking in your door at07:45. Now is not the time to
fix the Internet and

T.J. (37:27):
Yeah. So it it's like a redirecting tool.

Jamie (37:31):
Yes.

T.J. (37:32):
When you need it.

Jamie (37:34):
Yes.

T.J. (37:34):
To be able to Yeah. So you've taken something that
you've designed and used foryears And you continue to use it
for your benefit. That'sawesome. I find this stuff
fascinating. I really do.
I don't mean that in a like aderogatory funny way. I mean it

(37:56):
as in the mind is a powerfulthing. And we have coping
mechanisms to help us and wedon't even necessarily know why
that they're there, or thatwe're doing it. So working
through these, we have somemilestones in your life. I do

(38:21):
want us just to touch on thoseas you think back.
Where is God in all of this foryou? Because we in terms of a
faith journey, so your life isan amazing journey. And it's got

(38:42):
some twists and turns and somejoys in it. We kind of left off
where you, you had VBS onesummer in a neighboring church.
And so pick where you want to,you know, in terms of just kind
of looking between now and backthen.

(39:05):
But and and maybe we can touchagain on kind of kind of this
cataloging. No. It's not acatalog. A planner. One of the
things that you said that mademe think about this is, it's not
a journal because journal isusually like present or
something that happened in thepast.

(39:26):
But a planner is thinkingforward,

Jamie (39:29):
which

T.J. (39:30):
I find very interesting. You're thinking forward. And
when you are in this to do list.

Jamie (39:36):
Oh, that's where my brain was going.

T.J. (39:38):
Yeah.

Jamie (39:39):
I was talking about you asked about raising my kids and
things and I I was saying let'ssee, I knew it would come back.
That I do. I think forward. Andthat was the that moment so all

(40:03):
in this like 2019, that latetwenty teens, that's when I have
and then 2020, I have like thekids are all gone and settled.
Like, they're settled off out ofliving other places.

(40:24):
And I didn't I was finished withseminary. I'd there was no more
school to achieve. There was nomore kids to raise. There was I
had no more goals. And I Ididn't know what to do with
that.

(40:44):
Has all I'd ever done is worktoward achieving something. And
I think I would intentionallyset these things like out. So I
don't like to finish things. Idon't like things to be
finished.

T.J. (41:03):
So you had an open planner.

Jamie (41:06):
Mhmm.

T.J. (41:07):
That must have been awfully awfully scary for an
adult who It wasn't. Your entirelife had a planner, a to do
list, achievements, goals toaccomplish.

Jamie (41:22):
So I think

T.J. (41:23):
What a moment of crisis.

Jamie (41:26):
It was a moment of crisis. You know, personally,
globally, every, I mean,everybody was in crisis.
Everyone was all in crisistogether and then, you know
everything's shut down. So, Ihave nothing to do but set with

(41:47):
it and set with god and talk,you asked like, where was god in
all these things? So, like, Ithink I know that god it was
present with me, is present,will be present all then and

(42:13):
future and now and all at thesame time and however you wanna
perceive god but like, I Ibelieve that wholeheartedly and
I can see looking back evidenceof god with me and there's I
mean, I there's a lot of thingsthat I could rapid fire talk

(42:38):
about that we didn't touch on,and I don't even know if I feel
like it might invite a part twopartially, but I mean, like, at
that time when I was eight yearsold and going to VBS, I had, I
mean, there was sexual abusewith an uncle.

(43:00):
There was, like I've kind ofalready touched on a little like
not the most favorable raisingfor a child with disabilities
that was different. You know, Isaid earlier, you know, I I was
distrustful of people. I wasdistrustful of things and had to

(43:21):
find ways to motivate myselfjust for my own. It was like
there was something in me thatwanted to keep me going that was
bigger than me. And I look back.
I'm like, well, I do believe godwas with me I'm very hesitant to

(43:51):
talk about when people saythings like, oh god protected
you or god, this was just howwhat god wanted and I kind of
for me, I I'm going to call onsome of that terminology because
and and I in some context whensome people say those things to

(44:16):
me like no. I don't believe Godwanted these things to happen to
me the way they happened. But Ido believe God was with me. And
I also mentioned how I changedgears every couple of five years

(44:36):
like my five year cycles orwhatever. I can say Everything
I've experienced It's like everytime I have like a reset or a or
a pivot the things that I'veexperienced like they come they

(45:04):
build into each other and and Isomehow find myself around
people that are equipped thatthat need me to be equipped the
way I'm equipped.
I don't mean like I'm some greatwhatever. But at this point,

(45:27):
there's so many I encounter somany people and so many
situations and life things thatwill come and talk to me and not
even necessarily at church butit become it ends up being a

(45:49):
sort of spiritual conversation.And I'm like mentally go through
this. I'm like, oh yeah, I canrelate to being you know, in an
an abusive relationship or I canrelate to being a teenage mother

(46:09):
and not knowing where how I wasgoing to pay for, you know, the
next week's worth of meals andkeep the lights on. I can't,
it's like I can and again, Iwouldn't want to suggest that
that's was I was predestined oryou know, that's that's not

(46:33):
that's not my flavor ofgodliness and maybe that's wrong
to even say but, you know, I'm asay it anyway and god's still
using me.
So, I guess, I haven't beenstruck down yet.

T.J. (46:47):
Well, what I think I heard you say is that in your daily
life challenges, joys, thingslike that, you knew that God was
there and is there. And even intough and dire circumstances,

(47:12):
you don't really see those asbeing presented to you by God,
you know, for some teachablelesson

Jamie (47:20):
or

T.J. (47:23):
something valuable for you to learn. But nevertheless, you
knew God was present. It wasn'tsomething that was inflicted
upon you Mhmm. Through thefinger of the Lord so that you
can learn something.

Jamie (47:38):
Right. Yeah. No divine punishments. And I'm not gonna
say that through the so Jamie,the Dark Ears, which would
probably be like

T.J. (47:56):
this an album?

Jamie (47:58):
Eight maybe, like, eight I don't know.

T.J. (48:07):
Yeah. Be careful now.

Jamie (48:10):
I didn't say like when I got married we got married in a
church. We got married in thechurch I grew up in. I I feel

(48:37):
like a little bit of that andI'm not going to say all of it
because I did, I wanted to get,I wanted to get married. I
wanted to do the best thing forthis baby that was coming and
all that stuff but I do feellike there's in that time there
were some church hurts. And thatthe person I married wasn't did

(49:07):
not grow up particularlychurched, even less so than I
was, but but had family thatwas, like, ministers of this of
a different flavor that had verystrict I mean, I remember people

(49:29):
saying to me, like, if you don'tget married, your child will be
a bastard and there's no way.
Like, those words were said tome and that person. Yes. And
trying that that part of thatpart trying to live faithfully

(50:01):
with another person who maybedoesn't share your faith on all
those levels in the same way.Like, my husband didn't care
anything about Sunday schoolpens and going to church every
Sunday which I mean, to be fair,that's a stupid reason to go to
church every Sunday but youknow, like, like, I understand

(50:21):
that but it that was all italways became a fight and it was
it was a fight within my familyto church or not church. It was
a fight between the familieslike when my kids got old enough

(50:43):
for I was like, I want them togo to church every Sunday and
have the Sunday school and theall the fun things that I
remember.
Like, it was important to methat that they have that.

T.J. (50:56):
Mhmm.

Jamie (50:57):
And but it wasn't important to my husband so much.
So it ended up being a lot ofjust me and the kids going.
Which bothered me because it wasone of those does not compute

(51:20):
moments but then it, you know,it become like a fight or
something and then, you know,why are we even going to church?
You know, it was it was a weirdtime.

T.J. (51:32):
Let me let me pause you right there. So, you know, we're
we're looking back and you know,you're a different person and
and and he's probably adifferent person.

Jamie (51:42):
Oh, yeah.

T.J. (51:43):
What what advice do you have for or if any, for couples
that were in a similarsituation? I mean, it's not a
unique, you know, where there's,you know, when you have
children, you know, you wantthem to have some sort of, you
know, faith introduction. I hearit often. And, you know, two

(52:07):
different people may look at itfrom two different angles. So
was anything from thatexperience that you would share,
you know, that might belistening of like, hey, here's
something to consider in yourconversations?

Jamie (52:22):
That's actually a thing. Those kind, I think back on
though that and it's one of thethings I ask when I have couples
that's come to me and want to becounseled before they get
married and I because I keeplists and I'm still really good

(52:44):
at that. I usually drill rightdown to the, alright, we're
going to talk about the thingsthat you probably never thought
about to talk about. And inthat, I mean, it starts off
easy. I'm like, and it always,like, every time, I was like,

(53:07):
okay, whose house you going toon Thanksgiving?
And then both of them are like,my mom's. And I'm like,
Somebody's going to have topick. Like, you know, like those
things that you just assumeeverybody, we get we get we get
ecocentric I think in our faithand we think our faith sometimes

(53:30):
it's just like, okay, it's ofcourse it's like this. This is
how I've always done it and thisis what you do and then, when
it's different, I think it's aconversation that you should
have.

T.J. (53:41):
Yeah. And then the person that you live with shares the
same faith and yet has adifferent approach or practice
or understanding.

Jamie (53:52):
Yes.

T.J. (53:53):
You have all these commonalities and share roof in
many experiences and more tocome, especially in a young
couple. And yet when it comes tocertain faith practices or
understandings or where toworship, when to worship, how
you worship, and what youbelieve, Sunday school, no

(54:16):
Sunday school. Right. I likethis leadership. I don't like
this leadership.
All these different dynamics.And, you know, they can be
worked out. They're worked outall the time.

Jamie (54:30):
Yes. I sadly didn't hit the we worked it out well point
ever when I was married. But itI mean, we worked it out in the

(54:53):
way that worked for us, whichwas me and the kids doing a lot.
And then the oh, that one. SoI'm trying to get light in here.
My house is a 50 years old, andthere's no lights anywhere. I
don't think computer light isany better or not. Oh, you're

T.J. (55:16):
doing fine.

Jamie (55:17):
But, like some of the things were very different in
the church for church especiallylike my children not motivated
by hot dogs and lemonade. Wantedto be baptized early. And people

(55:43):
in some of the people in myhusband's family were adamantly
and vehemently against that.Because of their beliefs. And I
that I don't think I'd ever inmy life been had the way I

(56:12):
church be challenged before thatmoment.
Like I had never encounteredanybody say that something I was
doing about church was wrong.Now, there were opportunities.
Obviously, anybody could havebeen like, well, Jamie, don't
you think you ought to go toSunday school for reasons aside

(56:34):
to get the pens and the badges?I mean, they could have, but no
one ever had until that momentwhen my kids were wanting to be
baptized.

T.J. (56:45):
So this may have been, pretty, gosh, pretty shaking in
that

Jamie (56:51):
It was. Was very shaking.

T.J. (56:55):
And Maybe not even because of the topic, just because
you've never been pressedbefore.

Jamie (57:01):
Right. But it gave me well, it was one of those
pivots, because that is 100%when I started because what was
happening also while they werespeaking against my kids and

(57:30):
their baptisms, they werespeaking so intelligently with
scripture and like, this is blahblah says, this blah blah in
this place and that means thisand and they were telling me
these things and I was like, I Iwill say I was I don't know how

(57:54):
old I was. This probably wouldhave been in about maybe around
02/2007, '2 thousand '6 That'sprobably around. Matthew would
have been about 10 at thatpoint. 02/1956, mid '2

(58:15):
thousands.
Anyway, and I I just thought,okay, these people know more
than I know. Somehow, I'm 30years old Yeah, that's what I

(58:37):
was trying to do, Matthew.Thirty years old. I've gone to
church my whole life. I'm asmart person.
Why are why are these peopletelling me things and I don't
know like the best thing I cansay when they're like, why would
you want your son to bebaptized? And I'm like, because

(58:58):
you know, like, that's all Igot. You know, like I have
nothing.

T.J. (59:05):
And

Jamie (59:08):
so, that year, I was like, I got a Bible. I'm just
going to read it cover to coverdoing this and that was step
one. It was to become a biblicalexpert. I needed to read the
book first. Like, start tofinish.
Okay. Alright.

T.J. (59:28):
Now hold on. Alright. Let me play devil's advocate for a
moment.

Jamie (59:31):
Right.

T.J. (59:32):
Alright. So you're cracking open the good book.

Jamie (59:36):
Mhmm.

T.J. (59:37):
The Bible.

Jamie (59:38):
Mhmm.

T.J. (59:39):
And your motivation. What's your motivation in this?

Jamie (59:44):
To be better at arguing with people that disagree with
me.

T.J. (59:47):
Okay. Yes. I

Jamie (59:53):
know. I know him.

T.J. (59:54):
I'm gonna try here I am. I'm thinking, okay. I have to
remember before thisconversation ends that we come
back around and that there's alevel of, you know, like,
maturity and a moment ofepiphany and wisdom of like, and
again, I said it earlier, faithjourney.

Jamie (01:00:16):
Yes.

T.J. (01:00:17):
This journey of being able to reflect back and discern how
much we have changed. Right. I Ithink that's where your journey
is going.

Jamie (01:00:29):
Yes. It does. It does. It goes there. So I do.
I read the Bible. Also, whileI'm reading the Bible this year,
like like my lists, I have youknow, I come across things that
I don't understand because I'mprobably reading a King James

(01:00:51):
Bible, which is already, like

T.J. (01:00:53):
Wow. Another language.

Jamie (01:00:54):
Hard one to read. Right. But so I start getting, like,
other versions and crossreferencing texts and in in the
my church that I grew up in isin is in the midst of having a
split, and it's it's literallysplitting. I'm super involved

(01:01:22):
with all the youth things andthe kids because, again, for
whatever reason, it wasimportant to me that my kids
grow up and so working all thecamps and going to all the
trienniums and the things andbringing the kids and being
there and the church splits andthe way our my church split is

(01:01:49):
almost all of the families withkids left and go to another
church. So, I'm in like twoyears of intensive Bible study,
solo Bible study.
I'm part of a church split fromthe church I grew up in. And
when I say grow up, I mean, likethis church had a baby shower

(01:02:11):
for my mom when she was pregnantwith me. Like, only church I'd
ever gone to my whole life and Ileave and go to this other
church. What I didn't know atthe time was that that church

(01:02:34):
was sort of they were they weremoving to be a different like it
wasn't I'm learning about in inthe trenches learning about
different kind factions ofchurches and they have different
beliefs. So, I'm I would sayafter year, in this year too,

(01:03:02):
we're up to like about 2,008.
I'm super fired up about whatI'm studying and learning and,
you know, I've picked up toolslike the concordance that shows
you, like, all the, like, like,I'm doing all this
independently. And, again,making lists and keeping up with

(01:03:25):
what I've learned and and I'masking the preacher at this
church where we've split allthese quest like, probably
driving the poor man crazy. Thenhe's not answering my questions.

(01:03:47):
And then not only is he notanswering my questions. But to
me, at church, these Thingsaren't matching.
Things aren't aligning.Something he preaches this week
doesn't make sense with what hepreaches the next week. And I'm

(01:04:10):
having these like challengingthoughts and feelings and I'm
like, wait. No. I forgot aboutthis and I trust my studies and
I hear what you're saying butyou you're jumping to

(01:04:31):
conclusions that you can't makelike, this is me and I'm
challenging the preacher, whichis really a terrible shameful
thing and place to be where Iwas and he was.
And, anyway

T.J. (01:04:49):
You have a different perspective now, don't you?

Jamie (01:04:51):
Yes.

T.J. (01:04:52):
He it's

Jamie (01:04:54):
it's I welcome a challenge now, but that's but,
anyway, it that churchexperience devolves, and it
does. It devolves to the pointwhere I need I was told to not

(01:05:16):
worry so much about the studyingbecause my place would be with
the women figuring out how wewere gonna decorate for the
meals and cook and the potlucksand things which I haven't
mentioned but aside from mybrief time of trying to be the

(01:05:37):
perfect mom and housewife andall the Martha Stewart books,
that never stuck with me and I'mnot like, that is so far removed
from any innate gift or talentor ability that I have. That I
was like, again, here's mychurch world is challenged

(01:06:01):
because I've got like this hugethirst to study and know more
and now I'm being told to likego to the kitchen where I belong
and It it was a hard that thatwas hard for me. And I to go

(01:06:23):
back to your previous question.I wasn't sure God was with me
and during those times.
Like like that. When things whenI'm feel like I'm doing trying
so hard to know and understandand then I'm being told this by

(01:06:45):
people that again, some of them,I've known literally my entire
life. Like, they probably rockedme in a nursery when I was a
baby. And now they're telling meto stop. You know, this isn't
for me to know.

(01:07:07):
So

T.J. (01:07:09):
when you are actually studying for the purpose of
winning theological arguments.But I'm gonna give you the
benefit of the doubt and and andsay, you know, to deepen your
faith. Okay? Or maybe thebyproduct of studying the
scriptures is you're learningmore about our biblical

(01:07:32):
ancestors and daily practices ofthe Christian faith.

Jamie (01:07:38):
Sure.

T.J. (01:07:39):
This is when you feel the absence of God?

Jamie (01:07:46):
This is when I thought yeah. I did feel the absence of
God. I can say Those peopledied. I never got to argue
theologically with them as towhy my son needed to be baptized
when he was nine years old oryou know, like, that that never

(01:08:09):
came to fruition. The studyingtook on a different life of its
own but I felt like my desire toknow more I think that I

(01:08:29):
believed it was for lack of abetter word.
I thought it was like from thedevil. Like why would a why
would me just this girl teen momtrying to raise her kids right?
Like, why would I even need toknow more? And why was I wanting
to know more and now having thepreacher have to get on to me

(01:08:50):
and say, calm yourself. Like, goto the kid.
You're like, I felt legitimatelylike something was wrong with
me. That here I was wanting tostudy scripture in like a study

(01:09:16):
kind of way. Not like my littlewomen's devotional journal but
like a for real study it andknow it and understand it and
and These people that I love andtrust telling me that's not for
me to know or do and just thethere was a push and pull within

(01:09:40):
me for an entire year. I mean, Iliterally would just burst into
tears for no reason when I wasat home with this conflicting
feeling like this desire to dosomething so much but knowing it
was wrong or believing it waswrong.

T.J. (01:10:01):
Yeah. Being told it was wrong.

Jamie (01:10:02):
Right. And it it literally tore me into.

T.J. (01:10:11):
So I've been wanting to ask you. I haven't interrupted
you too much. And the times Ihave have been interrupting you.
But I've been wanting to ask. Soup into this point of your life,
early two thousands.
Have you know, where where areyour pillars? Where are your in

(01:10:33):
terms of human beings, you know,your staples, you know, the the
the post in your life that youcan cling on to when you have
these pivot moments, I think iswhat you've called them. Did you
have people at all?

Jamie (01:10:49):
I I have a core group of people that is still a core
group of people that I met whenI worked church camps at CCW.

T.J. (01:11:09):
And so these are people that you had that you could
count on.

Jamie (01:11:15):
I wouldn't say that yet. Not at this point. Because,
again, I'm highly distrustful ofpeople. I have a long history of
not being able to trust peoplethat I should have been able to
trust from an early age. One ofthose friends in particular is

(01:11:40):
just real persistent and asprickly of a cactus as I
presented, he and his wife werejust going to be my friends
whether I wanted it or not.
Thankful. I'm thankful for them.But I mean like, I'm so thankful

(01:12:02):
of what some of the near, mostnear and dear people to my heart
now, but at the time, it waslike, why are you so prickly?
Why won't you let me be yourfriend? I mean, I was getting
those kind of conversations.
Okay. But So

T.J. (01:12:19):
there there's no nuance there. You kinda knew.

Jamie (01:12:23):
No. I Alright. They the foundation was being laid for
for them and that group. I wasslow to trust, but but it was
there.

T.J. (01:12:40):
And and, you know, I I can see you kinda measuring your
words and, like, you know,revealing who these people are.
That's not what I'm asking. WhatI'm asking is, you know, it is
you know, some of these darkyears that you were going
through, you know, are youreally carrying this stuff
alone? Or is there people thatyou have been leaning on? And I

(01:13:02):
don't know who a coworker or,you know,

Jamie (01:13:05):
family It's it's largely alone at this point. I think
it's largely alone. Alright.Yes. Definitely.
For the most part. Because I Ithat's how I was wired to be. If
it's getting taken care of, I'mdoing it. And it's and that

T.J. (01:13:27):
But it's not.

Jamie (01:13:28):
No. It's not. But I know that now.

T.J. (01:13:31):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, but that's

Jamie (01:13:33):
what I believe. Yeah,

T.J. (01:13:35):
going back up to to where you were the inner turmoil of,
of, you know, digging into thescriptures and having
theological questions and, andkind of finding your role within
the church. It's not okay atthat time.

Jamie (01:13:52):
Right. No. It wasn't. And it it came to a head one night.
It was a Sunday at the newchurch where I was.
And again, I'm still faithfullygoing to church. I'm not getting

(01:14:13):
pens or certificates oranything. But because that's
what you're supposed to do.You're supposed to go to church
every so and and and I'mpraying, like, so much that
whatever this conflict in me is,that it would just go away.
Like, God, make me be right,make me be normal, make me be

(01:14:36):
satisfied with the things thatI'm supposed to be satisfied
with and all this stuff.
Like, this these are my prayersat this time and this one Sunday
we have communion. And they stopus when we go up to the table.

(01:15:02):
And they won't let the kids takecommunion. And maybe not me
either. I don't know.
Because the kids were in frontof me. Because we needed to see
they were going to have todecide if they were eligible. I
don't remember the word theyused. But my reaction was you're

(01:15:29):
telling me somebody's going tomeet and tell me if my kids are
worthy of taking communion. AndSo, I was mad.
I remember storming out. I'mstanding outside the parking

(01:15:49):
lot, taking the kids, andleaving and again, still this
this push and pull within me ofwhat I'm feeling and what I'm
trying to learn and what's bestand the next night would have

(01:16:10):
been the next time I'm going tochurch. And we were driving down
the road to go to church. Andfrom my house, you drive
literally down Church Streetwhich is named Church Street
because there's 14 churches onit and we're driving down Church

(01:16:31):
Street getting ready to turn towhere I have been going to
church and right at the cornerwhere there's a turn, there
there's a Cumberland church andI was like, it's a Cumberland
church. I grew up in aCumberland church.
We're just going to go here andI remember the kids going like,
mom, what are you doing? I waslike, we're going to go to this

(01:16:52):
church tonight and they're like,what? I was like, I don't know.
I don't know anything about it.

T.J. (01:16:58):
No. But. That's not in your planner.

Jamie (01:17:01):
No, it wasn't. Wasn't. So, we just pulled up in the
parking lot, got out, andstarted going, went in that
church.

T.J. (01:17:09):
And so it was the name recognition. Mhmm. You grew up
or when you attended church as alittle girl. Mhmm. You attended
a Cumberland Presbyterian.

Jamie (01:17:18):
Yes.

T.J. (01:17:19):
And you took a break during the church split? I
didn't ask you that.

Jamie (01:17:24):
Yeah. Well, so, like, my my break from church was
probably when the children werevery small. Like Yeah. I would
say I was an Easter Christmasonly kind of church goer from
'95 to maybe '99. And then kindagot my life back together and

(01:17:49):
started going.
But then back to that church Igrew up in.

T.J. (01:17:52):
Okay.

Jamie (01:17:53):
And then that church I grew up in is the one that
split. And the the split was notCumberland.

T.J. (01:18:01):
Yeah. You went with a group that did not remain
Cumberland. Correct. And nowwe're up to the place where
where I find this fascinating.You see a Cumberland
Presbyterian church, yourecognize the name.
Yes. And after your experience,three, four days earlier, this
is where you're taking yourchildren. Yes. On a Wednesday

(01:18:22):
night. Not in your planner.

Jamie (01:18:24):
Not in my planner at all.

T.J. (01:18:25):
Go ahead.

Jamie (01:18:26):
Didn't even know what to do. I like, didn't know what
door to go in, like, what'shappening

T.J. (01:18:31):
Yeah.

Jamie (01:18:32):
Anything.

T.J. (01:18:34):
Oh, okay. So, really, you had no contact context. You had
not been in there been to thatchurch before. This is really
new new. Okay.

Jamie (01:18:43):
Now I live in a small town. So once I go in the doors,
I see people I know.

T.J. (01:18:50):
Okay.

Jamie (01:18:52):
They're having a meal because they that church eats on
Wednesday nights. And then theygo and have the kids go to class
and the people go to they have,like, an adult class. And then I
and I remember going to thischurch and first off, a young

(01:19:17):
woman walks in with twochildren. The church is over the
moon that visitors have comelike any church would be but you
know, they're just excited andlike, woo hoo. Get your kids and
we'll do these things and andthey had kids that were my kids'
age that they knew from school.

(01:19:37):
We go. I eat. I remember I endedup setting across from this very
older man who's like got to bein his nineties. Who's telling
me about how he had a heartattack that morning and was at
the ER all day, but he had tojust leave because he wanted to

(01:19:57):
come to church because they werehaving Dwight's burgers at
Wednesday night to eat. And,like, like and that would be a
completely true story with thisman.
Like if he were still alive hewould validate every bit of
that. But I was we went to theBible study and I don't remember

(01:20:25):
I wish I could remember whattime of year it was but I feel
like it was probably around thistime of year. Yeah. Like spring.
And and the preacher had thisdevotional about Pharisees and

(01:20:52):
he's teaching and he's veryteachery in the way he's
preaching and he so like I'mpicking up everything he's put
down because I've been doingthis studying.
I mean, it felt like I was in acollege class, like, having

T.J. (01:21:07):
Oh, wow. Okay.

Jamie (01:21:08):
Lectures. And at at this point, I've graduated college.
I've even graduated with amaster's in education because if
the teachers out there, that'sthe only way you can get a raise
is to get more degrees. Butanyway, like, I knew, like, I
loved all of this and how it howit how he was speaking and

(01:21:29):
teaching and and and that wasthe first time I'd heard anybody
say anything to make me evenbegin to feel like, not like I
thought I was going to churchwith a bunch of Pharisees but
that it was possible for peopleto study scripture and not have

(01:21:57):
some kind of absolute perfectholy authority.

T.J. (01:22:01):
Mhmm.

Jamie (01:22:02):
And I was it was like 15 pounds came off of me with this
sermon about the Pharisees on aWednesday night like.

T.J. (01:22:13):
Real all at once. Not gradual.

Jamie (01:22:15):
No, all at once. So, I'm like weeping tears of joy. It is
Anna, the preacher comes to talkto me and he's like, would you,
do you want to talk? You know,why don't you come by my office

(01:22:35):
later? And like, he's noticed mycomplete overreaction to what
was probably supposed to be likea twenty minute Bible study and
and anyway, I sat down with him,and I tell him the little bits
of my story.
And he was like, I think you'rewrestling with a call. And I was

(01:23:03):
like, what? It was like, my blewmy mind. And and so, he put me
in touch with some people atseminary and like, he's like, in
this been there, done that. I'vegot the T shirt way.
He was trying he was telling me,and it was so foreign to me.

(01:23:28):
This is

T.J. (01:23:29):
a this is your first encounter with Mhmm. The anyone
mentioning a call to ministry.Alright.

Jamie (01:23:45):
Well, for one, yes, we're in the mid two thousands but
like, I never heard of a womanpreacher. I did truly, there was
a very big part of me thatbelieved what that church was
telling me about what women weresupposed to do at church because

(01:24:08):
that was all I'd ever saw womendo at church. So, I knew I
wasn't, I knew I didn't fit thethe molds for what what I was
supposed to be or what Ibelieved I was supposed to be
but yeah. So, he did and I youknow, met committees and told

(01:24:31):
talked to people and did thethings you do and started
seminary that fall.

T.J. (01:24:38):
Alright. So you didn't return to the church that said
time out to celebrating thelord's supper.

Jamie (01:24:47):
The only time I returned is I put the literature I had
that belonged to them in theirmailbox. But I never talked to
them never went back.

T.J. (01:25:04):
You called them pivot moments.

Jamie (01:25:07):
Mhmm.

T.J. (01:25:07):
Yeah. You pivoted.

Jamie (01:25:09):
That one was a pivot.

T.J. (01:25:12):
So then you become a seminary student and full time
teaching and two teenage kids atthis time.

Jamie (01:25:21):
Yes.

T.J. (01:25:23):
Amazing. So walk me through walk me through all that
stuff and a commute, I guess.

Jamie (01:25:28):
Yes. I was commuting after school. I would leave
school when I got out of schoolat 03:00, make a beeline to
Memphis to attend seminary. Atthis point, my that core group

(01:25:51):
of friends that I'm beginning toactually believe are friends are
very helpful. A lot of them arein seminary also.
They what the the husband andwife, they I stayed at their
house a lot when I had, like,super late nights and would

(01:26:14):
drive from Memphis back to workthe next day. That went on for a
while. I would stack up summercourses or j terms when I could.

T.J. (01:26:29):
And you were telling me off, Mike, when we were talking
the other day about doing thispodcast that because of
everything that you werebalancing, you you took more
time than maybe another well, Idon't even know if we can say
that you took more time. Butbalancing life, work, children

Jamie (01:26:51):
Mhmm.

T.J. (01:26:52):
You weren't done in three years.

Jamie (01:26:54):
No. I started in fall of o nine, and I didn't finish
classes until 2017. So. It was avery slow.

T.J. (01:27:10):
I

Jamie (01:27:13):
stayed on like the that church I just drove into the
parking lot of ended up stayingat that church for several years
attending loved that churchdearly. They I that was the
first time that I encounteredjust regular people of faith who

(01:27:46):
just regular people of faith, Iguess. Like, they I mean, there
is a lady there who every weekwould have her a list, and she
would want me to tell her thingsshe could specifically pray for
for me. And and the way shewould convey that, like, knew
she was gonna actually like, itwasn't like that, oh, I'm gonna

(01:28:10):
pray for you. No.
Right. She was sitting somewherein her quiet corner closet
praying fervently for whatever Iput on, you know, would tell
her.

T.J. (01:28:21):
Just you. Just you. As far as you know.

Jamie (01:28:24):
Well, no. No. I think she did it with every I think she
was like that way. Just Okay.That was her role.
But I mean, she wasn't theminister's wife or any it wasn't
her job. Yeah. It was just her.There were, like, I encountered
the the like little old retiredman who was just so nice. I

(01:28:49):
couldn't comprehend it.
Like, you know, he was justlike, hey, I made some extra
food for you and your family.Why don't you come by the house
and get it? And, you know, it'slike steak and baked chicken and
15 side. It looks likeThanksgiving.

T.J. (01:29:06):
Wow.

Jamie (01:29:07):
And, you know, I'm like, what? What? You know, like, just
really just such a wonderfulcommunity of faith that at this
little church. And I ended upbeing their youth pastor for a

(01:29:30):
while and one of my core groupfriends was the preacher there
for a while. It felt like afever dream of just good feeling
things, you know.
But it still was not as I gotclose to finishing seminary and

(01:30:01):
started being encouraged to fillthe pulpit more, like that
preacher left and went to adifferent place. You know?
Preachers do that. That's athing. They weren't using me to
fill their pulpit.
And when they did, I'd start tonotice that maybe some people

(01:30:26):
wouldn't stay or would listen toall the first stuff and then
leave when I got up there. Noteverybody. Now, some of them
were fantastic but there wassome little tiny remnants of
that Well, you're not goodenough. You don't need to be

(01:30:47):
doing this. Look at thesepeople.
Like, you know, I don't know ifyou have, like, that negative
self talk you get, but, youknow, you don't notice the 75
people that stay and listen. Youget fixated on the two that got
up and walked out. I'm like andyou're like, why am I so

(01:31:09):
terrible?

T.J. (01:31:10):
So you felt a vibe maybe without words of explanation.

Jamie (01:31:16):
Right.

T.J. (01:31:17):
Yeah.

Jamie (01:31:17):
And I never questioned it. The preacher that the one
that helped me discern my call,he wasn't there anymore. I mean,
they they kinda went throughpreachers a bit Mhmm. At that
church. And I So then thatbecame another pivot point to

(01:31:46):
when the the church I'm at now.
They had whoever their preacherwas, doesn't matter. I can't
remember his name exactlyeither. But he messaged me on
Facebook. And he was like I needsomebody to fill in for me.

(01:32:10):
You're in seminary.
Can you do this? And it gives methis address. And I get the
address and it is like in themiddle of nowhere Trimble,
Tennessee. So, it's like a townthat's in the middle of nowhere
in a area that's the middlemiddle of nowhere and I'm

(01:32:33):
following the GPS to go to thisplace and I'm like, I'm never
going to find this place. Like,this, I don't know.
I I have no idea where I'mgoing. And I'm driving down
roads that are barely wideenough for my car. And
cornfields as high as my car onboth sides. And I'm I like if

(01:32:57):
you if you ever wander to wheremy church is, it is. It's in the
middle of a bunch of fields andnobody is going to accidentally
drive by this place.
But I massage like just thisoasis of like, oh, there's a
cemetery and a church and alance there. So, I pull in and I

(01:33:21):
go to this church and I fill infor him and it's just a little
country church like it felt likeall the good, warm, fuzzy
feelings that I had from thechurch I grew up in which was

(01:33:41):
also in the middle of nowhere ina town that's in the middle of
nowhere. Like, it's a very ruralpart of the world where I live
here in Northwest Tennessee. So,like, like, the people were
nice, but not too nice, likereal nice. But I just loved how

(01:34:07):
it felt.
Yeah. In fact, I went back. Youcan, so now, we're to the era of
where you can, everything was onFacebook. So, you can go back
and read and I I wrote. I filledin at this church.
I could really see myself atsome play at a place like this
sometime And that was the firstand only time. Even though I'm

(01:34:29):
almost finished with seminary atthis point. I still did not see
myself as being a pastor.

T.J. (01:34:39):
What were you thinking? Why were you going through
seminary?

Jamie (01:34:44):
There was a part of me that thought I would go on and
get a doctorate and maybe teachbecause I they love learning and
teaching and learning are kindof the same thing to me. There
was still a part of me thatthought, well, I can know, I can
learn this stuff and I cancommunicate with people and I

(01:35:10):
can I've already picked up onthe fact that people like to
talk to me and whatever and sothen, I was like, well, then, I
can be at the restaurants andthe wherever and when those
things come up, then, I can pullthat preacher card out of my
back pocket and be like, well, II can speak with authority and

(01:35:31):
it'll be like not to provesomething wrong or win a fight
but to just be like, no, I doknow what I'm talking about kind
of thing and that's what Ithought, really, is what it what
it would be. A few months later,they, the church called me again

(01:35:57):
to fill in and they had a theelders at the time who one of
them he's he he died duringCOVID but he was what will be in

(01:36:22):
history, one of my favoritehumans that I've ever met in my
life.
He came up to me after thatsecond sermon. And he was like,
so, The church you go to,they're looking for a preacher,
right? And I said, yeah. Hesaid, why aren't they using you?

(01:36:46):
And I went I don't think they'reready for a woman preacher as
really what it boils down to.
And that's okay. Like no bigdeal. That's just what it is.
And he said well I think we are.And I'm like, what?

(01:37:06):
Like, did I just hear you right?And he's like, I want you to
come back and talk with thesession. And so then, I have
like this freak out momentbecause I've been asked to
preach a church and I've neverentertained ever even the

(01:37:26):
tiniest bit of being a preacher.Really still had a part of me
that believed I didn't Icouldn't be. Like, if I'm being
honest with you, I still get upevery Sunday morning and still
think, like, how am I doingthis?
Like, how is this me? And, like,this is a real thing. But I

(01:37:50):
started doing my homework onthis church. And this church
goes back to like its foundingin the eighteen fifties.
Eighteen fifties.
And they except for one person.Every two years, they got a new
preacher. Wow. So I'm like,something's wrong with this

(01:38:15):
church.

T.J. (01:38:16):
That's where your mind went.

Jamie (01:38:18):
I mean, I meant the numbers don't lie. Like so so I
call the past few preachers.Mhmm. And they really They're
not unkind about the church butthey all, the universal thread

(01:38:41):
of it is that it was a difficultchurch. That just difficult.
Nice people, good people, butdifficult people. And it's
completely okay for my church tohear this. I've told them this
story a thousand times and theyknow it too. But so anyway, I I

(01:39:06):
I do have a core group at thispoint. So, I go back to my
friends in Memphis and I'm like,I don't know.
I'm going to talk to thissession, I guess, because I
believe you should all, it neverhurts to interview, you know,
like, the worst I can do is sayno, but I was like, nobody and I
mean, these are seasonedministers that are like nope.

(01:39:31):
Couldn't get out of there quickenough. Now I'm making that part
up. They didn't say. But it'slike hyperbole for the
storytelling.

T.J. (01:39:39):
Oh yeah you're adding.

Jamie (01:39:40):
But but but you know and and my friend says to me, he
said, well, you know, maybe it'snot the church. Maybe they just
never found the right pastor.And I'm like, Okay, but you know

(01:40:01):
it's still probably not me,right? Like, I'm sorry. There's
my, I'm saying this.
But he did say that to me and itdid stick probably because it
was the right thing to say.Then, I called like some of
those older people like the ladythat prayed for me from the
other church and I'm like, Ineed you to pray hard for me,

(01:40:23):
miss Glenda. This has gottahappen now. Like, I don't wanna
put a timeline on it, butwhatever you gotta do. And,
like, I call the, you know,like, the mister Charles.
What do I need to do? Like Soyou're mister Charles. Like, I'm
calling people.

T.J. (01:40:38):
And I'm at shifted from the casual, like, hey, how does
the interview hurt to a placewhere you wanted this to work
out?

Jamie (01:40:49):
I just wanted to know. Like, I I wanted assurance.
Yeah. And so then I go and Imeet with the elders, and they
talk their spiel about what theywant.

T.J. (01:41:05):
And Mhmm.

Jamie (01:41:07):
It's a small church, and they can't, know, they can't
afford a full time minister. So,like, the fact that I teach
school is good, you know,because they want somebody that
to not just be a training groundfor a minister to cut their

(01:41:27):
teeth and then go somewhere butbut they they're looking for
something and and they andthey're like, do you have any
questions for us? And I mean,I've got nothing to lose. I
didn't even seek this job,right? So, I'm like, why does
nobody stay at your church morethan two years?

(01:41:49):
And the looks on their faces assoon as I said that. And they
all kind of look at each other.And I was like God what is the
that's they feel like what isthis thing that's at this
church? And then they startlaughing like hysterically.

T.J. (01:42:13):
Okay.

Jamie (01:42:14):
And they're like, no one's ever asked us that. And
I'm like, I don't know why not.It go back all the way to
literally the mid eighteenhundreds. And nobody has been
able to be with y'all for longerthan two years. Like, like one
person in all that time and hemade it seven.

(01:42:35):
So, you know, it it opened upsome dialogue like where they
were like, some people find usdifficult and I'm like, yeah,
I've heard. They say that likeand it it was the it it was the

(01:42:56):
beginning of what for me. It waslike, alright. Challenge
accepted.

T.J. (01:43:02):
You got your carrot.

Jamie (01:43:04):
I did. And and not even the carrot I thought I was
working toward. But but they itit's just such a wonderful group
of people and there are I Idon't even know how to describe.

(01:43:32):
Like they, what I love aboutthat church is everybody there
and I can say thatwholeheartedly, is what you see
is what you get.

T.J. (01:43:51):
Now that's pretty rare.

Jamie (01:43:52):
That is so rare. And and it's a small church. So, there
there's not, it's not big enoughfor factions or any of the other
things that happen justnaturally when you have groups
of people together. I'm notsaying there's anything wrong
with factions. I mean, that'sjust a normal thing.

(01:44:16):
If you go to a family reunion,you're gonna gather with your
corner of the cousins that youknow because that's

T.J. (01:44:21):
just Right.

Jamie (01:44:22):
That's just what people do. That's humanity. But but
they are. They they are they'rereally very open minded and very

(01:44:45):
They're all so intelligent. Evenif it's not like a classical
like seven letters behind theirname degree and but they they're
thoughtful and they it turnedout or like just exactly the
kind of people I needed to bearound.

(01:45:06):
Like,

T.J. (01:45:07):
for me. You've been there for a while now, right?

Jamie (01:45:10):
It will be ten years in May.

T.J. (01:45:13):
Wow.

Jamie (01:45:14):
So, also, lasted longer than all them two year people.
So I didn't get a pen. But

T.J. (01:45:28):
I I'm sure if somebody at the church hears that, maybe
they can order you one. And itcan be a ten year gift.

Jamie (01:45:43):
Well, now they for sure will if they hear it. I know. I
know.

T.J. (01:45:50):
Jamie, you've you've faced quite a few challenges in your
life. And, you know, one of thechallenges that you've been
facing the past almost ten yearsnow is is doing ministry and and
sharing the faith, you know,turn of the century, turn of the

(01:46:11):
decade, during during and postpandemic, and being bi
vocational, and then having yourchildren grown and doing their
own thing. You know, what advicedo you have for others who may
feel a call to ministry, or justdon't know even much about this

(01:46:32):
Christian life, this Christianthing, you know, it's just it's
kinda there.

Jamie (01:46:38):
Mhmm.

T.J. (01:46:38):
But it's just a cursory knowledge. I know this is a long
question, but I mean, how wouldyou what encouragement how would
you speak to those folks? Andwhat would you share with them
to help, I don't know, encouragethem along the way?

Jamie (01:46:57):
I would say and this is the benefit of my hindsight.

T.J. (01:47:05):
Right.

Jamie (01:47:05):
That that god is speaking to them always, I think, really
and truly through people,through places, through things.
And if they're curious, ifthey're beginning to have some

(01:47:31):
sense, I would say, hey, that's,you know, god's probably trying
to talk to you. Maybe, figureout how to listen. Which was for
me still one of the biggestchallenges is figuring out how
to listen to God. Because I cantell you all the ways to not

(01:47:54):
listen.

T.J. (01:47:55):
Because you had a you had a total stranger on a Wednesday
night telling you that you mustbe called or the that you might
be called.

Jamie (01:48:04):
God always uses because I'm a I'm a stubborn child.
Total strangers. I mean, I,there are so many instances
where complete strangersvalidate something I've been

(01:48:29):
wrestling with and my prayerlife is I I'm maybe the worst or
best at praying because my brainis so my brain. When I pray,
it's a list and I'm like, okay,god. You know how my brain
works.
So, I'm just going to go throughthis stuff I've been thinking

(01:48:50):
and writing down just to makesure I hit everything and I
would just do it daily likeforever until maybe it's check
and done finally. And thensometimes you uncheck it because
you can do that with yoursmartphones now. But it I would.

(01:49:11):
I would encourage them to listenand be open to listening and to
pray. And I always try toAdorable.
I would tell them I would tellthem to keep praying and to do

(01:49:34):
it until you get an answer.Until you feel some sort of
relief or resolution ordirection sense. I think that
discipline's important. And thenalso the hard one for me to

(01:49:56):
learn would be talk to people. Iwish people talked more about
their faith and their question,and I wish people felt
comfortable with the strugglekind of questions they have
about faith.

T.J. (01:50:16):
Yeah.

Jamie (01:50:17):
Calling. Because I think back to that year when I was
just so sad and and whatever,like, and just afraid to speak
what I was feeling because Ithought it was wrong. Like, how
crazy was that? Like

T.J. (01:50:38):
Look. I look. I I understand. I mean, I I
advocate. I don't no.
I don't understand, but Iadvocate conversation. And
that's one of the reasons why Ilike doing this is that maybe
people can connect and feel lessisolated, a little less lonely,

Jamie (01:51:01):
Mhmm.

T.J. (01:51:01):
And feel encouraged enough to be able to approach another
person or pray for the firsttime or read the scriptures for
the first time or start theconversation instead of waiting
for the conversation to come tothem. Ask questions about the
faith.

Jamie (01:51:20):
Yeah.

T.J. (01:51:24):
You know, you you've had a mixed a healthy mix of church
experiences in the CumberlandPresbyterian Church and and
outside the CumberlandPresbyterian Church. There's
people that listen to CumberlandRoad, never been to a Cumberland
Presbyterian Church.

Jamie (01:51:45):
Mhmm.

T.J. (01:51:47):
Or don't have one that's even remotely close to their
home. What would you, how wouldyou describe the Cumberland
Presbyterian Church and all ofits complexities to somebody who

(01:52:09):
may never enter into one or evenmeet somebody who leads or
worships in the CumberlandPresbyterian Church.

Jamie (01:52:21):
I I love the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. And a lot
of it, I don't even know why. Imean, it, again, like you said,
this familiarity of the signwhen I went to the one, it it

(01:52:46):
you know, I was born there. Itwas the one down the street when
I where my parents lived whenthey got married but when I when
I was in seminary and I think Ihad to reflect on being CP once.
I I said just that, you know, Igrew up at church but the the

(01:53:19):
beliefs of the CumberlandPresbyterian Church.
That's the core values that arein the confession of faith.
Which I did study when I wasdoing all my side Bible study
things too. I they're good. Iand I think they're really good

(01:53:41):
and they instilled in me adesire not just to be at church
but actually in church. My Ijust happened to be a minister.
My faith journey started in justwanting desperately to be a part

(01:54:03):
of something, not just like aspectator. And I think
Cumberland churches are good atthat kind of empowerment of the
people. I I don't I haven't beento a Cumberland church where you

(01:54:25):
just show up for the show and gohome. Not saying there's
anything wrong with churchesthat do that. Some as a minister
now where you're so much a partof it, sometimes that would be
refreshing to just go, sit inthe back, watch, listen, get up,
and go home.

T.J. (01:54:43):
Right.

Jamie (01:54:44):
I don't want a job. I don't want

T.J. (01:54:45):
to Limit it. On a committee. Yeah. No interaction.
Yeah.

Jamie (01:54:49):
Yes. But but I I believe and it's affirmed more and more.
I've lived a lot of my lifetrying to be an island. And in
reality, I think that we arecreated for community. I I I

(01:55:20):
there are too many instancesthat cannot be mere coincidence
where just the things, the roadI've traveled has somehow
brought me to a place with aperson who I could benefit from
their experiences and they canbenefit from mine and wait, we

(01:55:43):
both part ways better having metsomewhere on that journey and I
think the Cumberland Church isgood at that too.
Even even now where it feelslike some of the roads, some of
the Cumberlands are on are wayvastly different. I think we're

(01:56:09):
better together. And I thinkAgain, I understand. I
understand the differences andeven I'm glad there's room for
both In in those differences.And that's part of the great

(01:56:30):
thing.
That's part of how I think itshould be. That we can be
different. And still part of thesame community. Like how boring
would it be if we were all thesame anyway? Right?

T.J. (01:56:48):
Right.

Jamie (01:56:50):
So I don't I don't love I don't love the politics and I
don't love soap boxes I don'tlove ever being in a situation

(01:57:22):
where something has to beabsolutes I can say, for me, god
is absolute and no matter howlong I study and how smart I
think I am, I'm I don't get towear the hat to make that call

(01:57:45):
for god as to what is or is not.So, personally, I tend to bury
my head in the sand a littlewhen I came in confronted with
that with that not to stayignorant. I'm not ignorant on

(01:58:10):
things but I just we got moreimportant things to do. Like
have good church. And I don't Idon't need the distraction of
anything else.
So if somebody was listening andwanted, I would say, keep going

(01:58:37):
to church and if someday, thechurch you're going to doesn't
feel like the right churchanymore, that's okay. Go to a
different church And if thatwoman feels okay for a time and
then doesn't feel right, then goto a different church. Like,
they're everywhere. Literally.

T.J. (01:58:57):
Especially in the Southern part of The United States.

Jamie (01:59:01):
Yes. Yes. And gosh, now, you know, we can find them
online, and we can do although Idon't love online, I I don't
think you can really achievecommunity fully.

T.J. (01:59:22):
As we talk online?

Jamie (01:59:24):
Yeah. Well, I mean, we might fit some better, and I'm
even my therapist online. Like,I but there's just something
about being in a room with agroup of people and just being.

(01:59:50):
Like, no matter what's said orhow you pray or what songs you
sing or what you eat after orhow you do communion or what
you're wearing or what theweather it just being can be a
holy thing.

T.J. (02:00:10):
Sitting in in comfortable settings and not leaving when
it's uncomfortable.

Jamie (02:00:18):
Mhmm.

T.J. (02:00:19):
Yeah. Being in the room with another person or persons
make both bearable.

Jamie (02:00:30):
Mhmm. It does.

T.J. (02:00:33):
Yeah. Well, I don't wanna miss the opportunity for you to,
if you want to, talk about abusiness venture.

Jamie (02:00:45):
Okay.

T.J. (02:00:48):
Recently, I don't remember what issue, but you were
interviewed in the CumberlandPresbyterian magazine. Mhmm.
Sorry. I don't remember whatissue, but a recent issue.

Jamie (02:01:03):
I don't remember either. Yeah. That's okay.

T.J. (02:01:06):
So this is your opportunity to make a plug for?

Jamie (02:01:15):
Oh, yeah. The record shop. Yeah.

T.J. (02:01:17):
Yeah. Yeah.

Jamie (02:01:18):
So I was interviewed. I don't know how exactly the CP
world even found out about it,but it is a small town and a
pretty connected community. So,I guess but yeah, bought a
record shop with the kids coupleyears ago. Or a year and a half

(02:01:38):
ago and it's in downtown, UnionCity where we sell old and new
stuff and it's a lot of fun andmore importantly than that, it
is it's just a fun place forpeople to come and talk and be

(02:02:00):
and I said it in the interviewand I'll say it again. People,
music has a nostalgia to it.
Like you can't not remember. Youcan't, I couldn't repeat to you
the words I said five minutesago in this interview but you
can ask me this to sing thelyrics to some Madonna song from

(02:02:25):
1984 and I can rattle them offperfect You know, like, music
does that and people it's in ahistoric building and historic
downtown and people come in toremember things and talk about

(02:02:47):
where they were when they heardthis or what they were doing
when this other song played andit's it's a good place for
people to swap their stories andto be heard and to just listen
to good music which is also afun thing and it I don't know

(02:03:12):
where it's going. I don't reallyhave a plan. What?

T.J. (02:03:17):
No plan.

Jamie (02:03:17):
Get the lights on. Yeah.

T.J. (02:03:22):
Well, so if you happen to be in the Union City, Tennessee
area, head downtown and look forthe record shop.

Jamie (02:03:32):
Yes.

T.J. (02:03:34):
And Jamie Adams may may be in there.

Jamie (02:03:40):
Strong possibility. If not, I'm probably around the
corner. So

T.J. (02:03:45):
Jamie, thank you for giving me a big part of your
evening so that we could gettogether and have this
conversation. I appreciate it.

Jamie (02:03:54):
Oh, no problem.

T.J. (02:03:57):
Thank you for listening to this episode of Cumberland Road.
Following my conversation withJamie Adams, I was able to get a
free subscriber link to theDecember 2024 issue of the
Cumberland PresbyterianMagazine. In this issue, there
is a feature article on therecord shop, the business that

(02:04:20):
Jamie Adams operates. Thanks tothe editor, Matt Gore, for
helping making this happen. Inclosing, I wanna read to you a
poem by Gene McCarthy entitledThe Pivot. Set it down. It

(02:04:40):
doesn't deserve you. Your armsare aching, cramped, and sore.
You're so accustomed to thisburden, believing less will hurt
you more. Your true purpose islong forgotten, enmeshed,
unwilling to a bitter call, andfearing death or certain ruin,

(02:05:01):
you've reached the point ofstand or fall. This is your day.
This is your moment. This isyour life. This is your heart.
Take back your freedom. Reclaimyour strength. It's time to
quit. It's time to start. Thanksfor listening.

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Jamie Adams - The Pivot

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