Lucas Garcia - You Are Always Going To Need Others

Rev. Lucas Garcia is a Cumberland Presbyterian minister in the Atlanta, Georgia area. Lucas writes, "I have been happily married for ten years to my beautiful wife Jennifer and we have a three year old son named Santiago. I have served the El Redil Cumberland Presbyterian Church for the past six years as its pastor. It has been a wonderful and fulfilling journey. I love playing the guitar and laughing."

Music is provided by Pierce Murphy, Caldera Blue. 
Source:  https://www.freemusicarchive.org/music/Pierce_Murphy/through-the-olive-branches/caldera-blue
Comments: http://freemusicarchive.org/
Additional comments:  modifications made to shorten and loop song for introduction and closing of podcast.
Copyright Attribution and License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

Episode Transcript

T.J. (00:03):
You were listening to the Cumberland Road, and I'm your
host, TJ Malinowski. Thefollowing is a faith
conversation with Reverend LucasGarcia, a Cumberland
Presbyterian minister in theAtlanta, Georgia area. Lucas

(00:25):
shares his journey of coming tothe United States from Colombia
as a child and the challenges oflearning a new language and a
new culture. Lucas brings bothhumor and humility to our
conversation as he shares acomplexity of ministry in an

(00:47):
intercultural andintergenerational congregation
that worships in both Spanishand English. I enjoy sitting
with Lucas and getting to knowhim better, and I hope you enjoy
this faith journey of LucasGarcia.

(01:09):
Lucas, let's start with a deepquestion. What revelation about
God have you recentlydiscovered?

Lucas (01:21):
Well, I don't think it is a new discovery, but digging
deeper, I guess. Uh-huh. I mean,read a book about the trinity
and the triune God and just howscripture does this massive full
revelation of the trinity ofGod. And it's been kinda blowing
my mind and make me think somuch. But the end of it or the

(01:47):
end part of it is the fact thatone thing I'm realizing is that
I can think and reflect and prayas much as I want, but this
doesn't quite make sense in mylimited space in my brain.
You know? It's like this is sucha marble mystery of God. Mhmm.
This, you know, that we worshipa triune God. There's 3 very

(02:10):
much so coequal as the bookstates that, you know, entities
in one being, and it's just mymind is just very much so.
Just wondering about that andjust marbling at at the trinity.
So it's been it's been verygood. It's been good reflecting.
It's been difficult readingbecause the author is big words.

(02:30):
I guess they wanna sound smart.
But it's been good. It's been sogood because I this is one of
the points I think that a lot ofChristians have difficulty truly
answering correctly or or givingenough of an answer where people
are like, okay. I can see that,you know. And I did it more not
to protect my faith if you will,but just so I can know more

(02:50):
about God.

T.J. (02:51):
Mhmm.

Lucas (02:52):
This season of my life at the moment, God has just been,
like, prompting curiosity in myheart and my mind towards him.
And so it's been good. So thisthis just just wrestling with
that revelation and and and justlearning things about it has
been good.

T.J. (03:07):
Yeah. There for me, there's something exciting about
exploring and, you know, turningthe pages of the scriptures or
theologians or just writers, fordifferent perspectives, or
deeper explanations. Or to see awriter or to have a conversation
like we are and and hearing insomebody's voice or in the

(03:31):
written word their own strugglesof like, what does like for the
trinity is a perfect example.Like, how can we one of the
measuring points that I I use iswe have an 8 year old in the
house. How can I take this deeptheological concept and be able
to articulate it in such a waythat an 8 year old is able to to

(03:57):
to grasp it or or take it ontheir own and kind of grapple
with it, and maybe even come upwith a better phrase, better
meaning, better understanding?
I think that's one of thechallenges for people in
ministry and in leadership andjust Christians in general is,
how do we describe our faith ina world that is very much about

(04:23):
like tangible measurements?

Lucas (04:26):
Mhmm.

T.J. (04:26):
And and that's hard to do. It's difficult to do. But yet,
for me, it's also exciting inthose attempts even though I
won't do it accurately.

Lucas (04:40):
Yeah. For sure. For sure. And it's something else I think
that studying this type of ofthings does is the fact that it
almost frees us from theconstant trap to put people put
us in. It's like, how can youdefine the faith?
Like, we have to have a perfectanswer from my singular
experience about this specifictopic. And I'm like, I haven't

(05:02):
looked that long ago. I haven'tthought about this things that
deep. But now I have thepossibility of going into this
wonderful thoughts of all this.People have come before me of
faith.
You know, they have wrestledwith this, and I get to now
listen to their thoughts, listento how they process these
things, you know, and that freesme because I'm like, oh, I
didn't think about it that way.I didn't even see that angle of

(05:23):
perspective. So so diving intothat realm has been is really
good and very much nourishingfor my soul. And it's helped me
understand the fact that I amnot the first person to wrestle
with this or to dig into this,you know. Right.
And

T.J. (05:36):
you won't

Lucas (05:37):
be the last. Yeah. Probably not.

T.J. (05:41):
You're right. There's something freeing, and I'm
trying to grow into this forarticulating the faith and and
deep theological concepts andideas of moving away from the
elevator pitch. You know, canyou summarize this about your
faith, you know, in one minuteor less, you know, or just for

(06:01):
the length of an elevator ride.Yeah. And relationships
relationships with other humansand a relationship with God
through Jesus Christ cannot bearticulated in such simplistic
fashion to where it it stillretains its meaning and

(06:22):
intimacy.
And, that's why we were talkingoff mic. I really enjoy these
conversations, these these longformat conversations to be able,
1, to get to know one another abit better, but also to kind of
give us this platform to be ableto go, I don't have all the
answers. I'm still trying tofigure out. It is a journey. I

(06:44):
use the word journey for areason.
There's no place of arrival. AndI like moving away from faith
story to faith journey becausestories have chapters, which is
good. But stories come to anend, you know, have a
conclusion. But inrelationships, that's not
necessarily so.

Lucas (07:04):
Mhmm. Yeah. And I think spaces like this also give us
the opportunity to to say, okay.This is what I believe. Now can
we break it down?
And we will lean into it andsee.

T.J. (07:16):
Mhmm.

Lucas (07:17):
Well, is that true? Is it not? You know? It gives us more
space to really dig into things.Yeah.
Because I I think we look assuch a polarized society at the
moment that we're trying toconvince the other side. And
then reality truth of theChristian faith, like you said,
is a process that takes a lifelong to achieve, if you will.
You know, you receive salvationand then you grow into it, then

(07:40):
you begin to dive deep into thethings of God. But then you
begin to wrestle with them as acommunity or with other people
of faith, you know. Andhopefully, we get to see God in
a better light and become betterreflections of Christ through
this interactions and throughthese conversations.

T.J. (07:55):
That's interesting. If we think about and I know
everybody's faith journey isdifferent. But for those who can
recall a specific moment ofencountering God, a, you know,
the time for, professing one'sfaith or this is this is when
God met me, this is when Iexperienced God's grace. That is

(08:17):
a moment in time, but it'sbeginning And so it's this
ongoing. It's not like it wasjust then and then it was over.
Like like something that weconsume. I don't know. Like a
bag of chips or an apple orsomething, you know. And it's no
longer an apple after we're doneeating it. And and so, yeah,
there's that period of growth,ongoing growth and expiration,

(08:42):
and you aren't the same personin that moment that you made a
profession of faith or acceptedChrist into your life, you're
you're automatically differentthen and then you're different a
week from then and then a yearand then a decade and so on.
So it's it's it's, you know, weoften think in those

(09:02):
compartments, but really nothingelse in our life operates in
that way. And I don't know whywe would consider having faith
in God as something that we can,categorize and just go, okay,
well here it is. It's in thiscube. It's in this box. As much

(09:25):
as we would like to do that,it's just not necessarily so.

Lucas (09:31):
Yeah. And I think that's why the scriptures, often use
the the image of of us being fedby the scriptures. Because when
you're fed is just to to producegrowth and then something, you
know, you don't feed a child andexpect them to stay the same
size. You know, you don't feedyour dogs. Right.
You know? But yes. So I thinkit's almost like an uncovering

(09:51):
of our eyes. Do you see theglory of God here? The longer we
go on this journey, then themore fed than we are by the
scriptures, hopefully, you know,the clearer we get to see God
and the more we get to see ofGod.
And it's very interestingbecause the the wider our eyes
become, the more change webecome. We I don't think it is

(10:12):
possible. I don't think it ispossible for you to see the true
and risen Christ and stay thesame. It's it's an
impossibility.

T.J. (10:22):
And you were referencing the book, on the trinity. Often,
at least in the English, we liketo use the illumination with to
go along with the Holy Spirit.So, I mean, that implies, you
know, that there are newrevelations that something that

(10:43):
was veiled or hidden or notunderstood or mysterious is is
being illuminated, is beingrevealed. And I think that's
fascinating, and it just kindagoes into what we've been
talking about is there are newrevelations. There are new if

(11:03):
we're open and if we're on ajourney, there will be growth.
There will be some setbacks too.But, I I just think it puts a
new light on what faith is andwhat our relationship to God is
is that it isn't stagnant, butit's ongoing and moving.

Lucas (11:24):
Yeah. Very much so.

T.J. (11:27):
Let's go back in time a little bit. And, Lucas, can you
recall a, a first encounter oran early encounter of a
relationship with God throughJesus Christ?

Lucas (11:44):
Well, I when when people usually ask me this question, I
I I always preface things withthe fact that I was I was born
in what I call a cradle ofgrace. That means both of my
parents were believers. Mhmm.They grew up in a family with
strong Christian principles. Wewent to church.
We lived that church as you say.We didn't go to church, we lived

(12:04):
that church. So, we got to goout every now and then, but
primarily we were at church.Uh-huh. But I I I've always
been, aware or I've always beensurrounded by faith practices.
But it wasn't until I got intoabout 8 or 9 where I began to

(12:24):
internalize things more. But Ithink that the moment where I
got to see God the clearest waswhen we came to this country for
the first time, I was 11 yearsold. My mother left a few months
prior to us to come in or a yearand a half before us to come get
a job and set up things, youknow, because my dad at the time
had a good job, so he had tokeep that until we could make

(12:45):
the transition and things likethat. Mhmm. And I remember just
feeling a bit of anxiety ofhaving to leave everything that
we have known to go to this newplace.
But I remember from the planecoming over just being really
aware of the sovereignty of Godover my life. That this

(13:06):
transition was happening for areason. This transition was
happening because he hadordained it for some purpose,
some great purpose that I couldunderstand in that moment. I was
very much so at peace at 11years old. Like, you know, it's
like, yeah, this is very new,exciting, nervous, but somehow
it's it's okay.
And he wasn't till much later inlife. Like, 15 years later now

(13:30):
or I'm 36 now, so a lot a lotmore years later. Yeah. 25 years
later, you know, I'm lookingback and I can see how that
specific moment in my earlychildhood was very much so God
was there and he cared for me insuch a way that now looking back
and see this is the reason I wascalled. Because now I pastor a

(13:53):
multicultural church where Ineed to be both English speaking
and Hispanic.
I Need to function in both ofthem in in such a degree
necessary, you know. So I canremember that that that journey
coming over, and he was, like Isaid, he was he was very nerve
breaking at times. But thebiggest thing that I can
remember feeling is just a peacethat what was happening was God

(14:18):
was the one moving things. Itwasn't it wasn't us, because
also so I'm Colombian. AndColombians are not necessarily
disliked by Americans, but backin the day, because of the drug
wars in our country, we werevery much so stereotyped.
Like, anybody coming from allthis, this is happening, you
know, so we don't want any ofthem. And I remember my parents

(14:39):
always saying, you know, youknow, specifically my dad. Well,
you guys applied for the visabecause, you know, they're gonna
deny us anyway because we'reColombian because of this, you
know, and now we have our familyof 5. They put the one more
migrants at that time. This wasback in 2,000, 1999, 2000.
So my dad was very much like,it's not gonna happen. Whatever,
you know, let's just go with itanyway because your mom's, you

(15:00):
know, what, thinks we should dothis and we've been praying
about it and I feel like God iscalling us. But it was very much
on the side of like, I don'treally wanna leave, you know?
And I remember that we actuallygot our visas not only faster
than expected, but we all got

T.J. (15:16):
them. Wow.

Lucas (15:17):
And my dad was like, what? And this is also actually
another moment if you will,because I saw my dad's heart
submit to God's will in thatmoment.

T.J. (15:26):
Mhmm.

Lucas (15:26):
Because he was very much, so I don't wanna leave. This is
the country I grew up in. Thisis where my friend, my family
are. And I don't wanna leave,but God has clearly opened the
door, so I'm gonna be obedient.So that mark my part of my mind
as a child to see my dad say,okay.
And he stepped away from it. Hehad known to come here. So both
of those moments, I guess, aremoments that I can think of

(15:50):
where I saw God's hand in mylife Yeah. And got to see and
function through the life of myparents.

T.J. (15:56):
Yeah. And you were just old enough. You know, you're
what 8 to to 11. So you're kindof you're at that age where
you're sort of looking at yourfather as in this role model.
How does he carry himself?
And your mother as well, butit's like, how does my dad
handle when x happens? Mhmm. Youknow Yeah. Because it and to see

(16:19):
humility in a grown adult and inthe male, that must have been
really impactful, especially thestress of any move. Whether
you're moving within the samecity, but in your case, you're
moving that requires planetravel from Colombia to the
United States.
I found it amazing, Lucas, thatyou found peace and a sense of

(16:44):
serenity in a plain seat wheremany people are a little
anxious, you know.

Lucas (16:52):
Yeah. Yeah. It's funny because when I travel now, I I
get really nervous and I thinkback, like, I wasn't this
nervous the first time I flew aplane, so why I'm wishing that

T.J. (17:04):
you know? You have to capture that 11 year old Lucas
again.

Lucas (17:08):
Yeah.

T.J. (17:12):
What a what a big change in your life, you know, early on
because you are old enough,you've got friends, you have a
routine, you have school, you'vegot, you know, places to walk,
ride your bike, play sports,what, you know, whatever it is
that you were doing. And thenuplifting everything known to
you to relocate to a place whereeverything is unknown.

Lucas (17:34):
Mhmm.

T.J. (17:34):
And, you know, we use the word faith in a religious
context most of the time, Butyour parents took a tremendous
leap of faith with 3 children torelocate and to leave jobs
behind, leave family behind,leave friends behind. Yeah. How
well did you looking back, howwell do you think that you

(17:56):
adapted and adjusted to such abig change?

Lucas (18:00):
Yeah. I I think, I don't know how it is for some other
immigrant kids, But I know forme, it wasn't till many years
later when I went back and kindadeal with it. As a child, you
use adjust. I, you know, you gofrom one place to the other and
you just begin to see what youcan do and, self regulate as
best you can. But it wasn'ttill, like, as I became an adult

(18:22):
where I revisited some of thosethings.
And, one of those things thatprompted that reflection time
was the fact that, when I was20, I wanna say 24 or so, I I
found some old videos from overin Colombia. It was my last
birthday that I had to becelebrated. It was my 10th
birthday, 10th or 11th birthday,right before we left. And it was

(18:45):
such a wonderful gift because itwas, it was my birthday. And my
grandmother prayed for me for mybirthday.
I did not notice at the time,but that was the last time I was
ever gonna see her because shepassed away when I was 16. And
watching that video, 2 thingsstuck out to me. Just the faith
of my grandmother, the fact thatshe was praying over me and
blessing me for my birthday waswas a gift from God, that moment

(19:08):
alone. But then the fact that Isaw that child at 11, I realized
I have no idea who that is. I Ias an adult cannot, you know,
think back.
How did I go from that to what Iam now? Or who would I could be
now if I were to bump them inthe street now because I am such
a different person.

T.J. (19:28):
Mhmm.

Lucas (19:28):
My my intellectual capacity or my my my the way my
brain's wired now because the 2languages and 2 cultures, you
know, is so different that Icouldn't, you know, comprehend
how that kid became me in a lotof ways. So but, yeah, so
reflecting on those things isjust you you grew up a little
quicker

T.J. (19:47):
Mhmm.

Lucas (19:47):
Just because you have to. I know that my particularly my
older brother functions thattranslate for my parents a lot
of time, but then became my roleand we became more involved with
the Presbyterian things likethat because I was just more
present in those things forwhatever reason. But, yeah, you
just, that happens. By the way,yeah, I I don't know if I fully

(20:09):
have wrestle with all that, butjust the the development just
kinda happens organically. Andthen you do have to go back and
check on yourself, though,because if you don't, you you
could potentially become, andbeing bitter for some of those
things that happened because itwas very abrupt.

(20:29):
Yeah. Yeah. Arts change.

T.J. (20:31):
I think God has blessed us with the ability as we age to be
able to be retrospective, goback in time, and kinda almost
pull it off the shelf when we'reready and review different
aspects of our life and reflectupon it, whether it's painful or
full of happiness and joy andprocess it. Again, from memory,

(20:55):
you know, we always drop off,you know, some things we're
we're not able to recall asclearly. And I've always seen
that as a gift, because when Iwhen I do that, even if it's a
painful thing, a little bitlater on, there is a place of
growth. Mhmm. It's like, okay, Ineeded to do that.

(21:15):
I needed to be able to go andgo, I am not the same person.
I'm not the same child orteenager or adult or whatever it
may be. And in many ways, I'mglad I'm not. And then some
other instances, I'm like, Ineed to capture that again. That
that that kindness or or maybeeven it's that that, curiosity

(21:38):
of to to know more, you know,that maybe, you know, an
experience in the past where itlooked it looked silly, but
really it was an act of braveryof just going out and exploring
and checking that out.
Not only the environment, but Ilearned about myself as well. I
don't know. I don't hear a lotof folks talking about what a
gift that actually is, is to tolook back in our life and

(22:03):
reflect and and kind of live injoy and live in and even in
regret, but being able to moveon, so you're not stuck there.

Lucas (22:15):
Yeah. I think I think we we have society's done a great
job of numbing us. Mhmm. And andI think we often also don't
wanna look back because we've,in some way, shape, or form,
feel God has been unjust towardsus or forgotten us. Mhmm.
So I know for me personally, oneof the practices that I

(22:37):
intentionally make is that I askthe question, you know, where
was God in this? And when I dothat going back, I can see God's
hand in in in so many places.Because my life is it is it is
better. I do feel like I have astrong purpose here and a
specific calling in my life. Andit wouldn't have happened had
that transition that happenedwhen he did, you know, because I

(22:59):
have the very I'm very fortunateto the fact that I'm able to
speak English.
And now that but I'm able tothink like an American at times.
Mhmm. But I can also speakSpanish fairly well. And And I'm
able to think, like, I explainedanything. I get accused more of
thinking like an American than Ido at Columbia most of the time.
But I just it's the world Inavigate primarily, you know?

(23:21):
So, but all those things wouldhave not happened had it not
been for that specific moment.That's why I think that that
sovereignty of God or that, youknow, gotta orchestrate that
specific moment so all of thiscould come afterwards. Yeah.

T.J. (23:35):
When your family relocated to the United States, was that a
bonding period where you grewcloser to your parents, to your
brothers, to, your faith and thechurch community that surrounded
you? Was there a period ofrebellion, anger? What was that

(23:56):
like for you, Lucas? Or was itall of those things depending on
the year?

Lucas (24:01):
Yeah. Actually, so we we we came from a very strong
church background. When we camehere, actually, we we we had to
rely on that previous years tocarry us for a a period of time.
Mhmm. Because for the first 3years, if you will, it was

(24:21):
difficult just to communicatewith other people.
You know? My older brotherlearned English or the
capability of communicating wellenough and understanding well
enough within 7 months. But myyounger brother and I, it took
us a year and a half to get tothat level of comfort. My
parents still seem to struggleevery every now and then. So I
don't know what's going onthere.
But, but because of that, itused to took a long time to

(24:44):
build community again. Mhmm. Iknow it wasn't until we were
later in our teen years, youknow, that we really found a
church community if you will. Sothroughout that time, we really
had to rely on the fact that wewe had a strong community back
home. So now our house or ourhome became that central point,

(25:05):
and we had devotionals everynight.
We prayed every night togetheras family, you know. We we used
to fast together. It was like,you know. So we used to do all
these things together. So we didgrow closer.
Rebellion didn't happen really.We were relaxed kids. Yeah. And
my younger brother and I havealways been really close

(25:25):
together. So our bonds did getstronger for a time because of
the fact that we were just itwas just us.
You know? But but yeah. So Iwould say, you know, we we
actually coped there fairlywell. And I think it is I
attribute it to the fact that wehad a strong faith. And we have

(25:47):
had daily practical things orpractices that we did that
reaffirm that every single day.
You know? Not like we we wentwithout reading the Bible or we
didn't went without praying.It's funny because we, you know,
we pray for every meal. We doour devotionals. We we we will
pray before we go to sleep, youknow, and we will sing random

(26:09):
songs because none of us playedinstruments at a time.
So so yeah, so so our home kindof became our church for a bit
until we were able to really beembraced by a community. There's
a difference between going tochurch and being embraced by
that church. There's 2 differentthings. And unfortunately, the
church in the west has forgottenthat. We've made church another

(26:31):
to do in our list or, yeah,rather than, can I invest my
life with these people, youknow, and grow together?
So it took a while to get thathave that again. Mhmm. But it
drew us closer together.

T.J. (26:45):
Talk more on that. Talk about the differences between
going to church and beingembraced by the community of
faith.

Lucas (26:54):
Yeah. So so I pastor in West Tennessee for 3 years when
I was at Bethel. And when I wentto MTS, I got to pastor a white
church.

T.J. (27:05):
Mhmm.

Lucas (27:05):
Was I was the only 10 person in the building.

T.J. (27:08):
And it

Lucas (27:08):
was funny because I was the pulpit supply, if you will,
and I was there for 3 years.Mhmm. And it was a great church
in many ways. But one thing thatbecame very apparent is that
these individuals primarilygathered because it was
something they did. But therewas no real investment in each
other's lives, you know.

(27:31):
Now that, but they only went tochurch Sunday morning for 45
minutes. And if I preach toolong, they would let me know. So
pastor, you won't pass an hour.You know? Yeah.
So and they will let me know.And and I I try not to be overly
critical of this because, I justdon't wanna be. I don't think, I

(27:55):
don't know if it's my space justto to say those things, but one
thing I will say is the factthat if I'm only investing 45
minutes in my community faithper week, I don't know how much
growth can actually happenthere.

T.J. (28:06):
Mhmm.

Lucas (28:06):
Not only in our faith, but in the ties that could
potentially be made within thecommunity. And I do not know how
they function outside of churchbecause I didn't see many of
them until Sunday. You know? Soso this kind of demonstrates
they were just I have to go tochurch, and that's what I do.
And that's that's it.
You know? On the other side, ourchurch here in Georgia, which is

(28:28):
a multicultural church, we go tochurch 3 days a week. And I'm a
church with quite a few of themembers on Wednesday from 7
until almost 9:30. That'sWednesdays only. Right?
Then every every month or everyother month, we have vigils
where we gather from 8 in theevening until anywhere between

(28:51):
12 to 2 in the morning, praying,singing together. You know, our
church service on Sunday startat 10, and we go until 1
o'clock. You know? And then ifwe have cleaning, if we have
cooking, if we have birthdays, Imean, it's funny because archers
have been accused of being thechurch that just likes to eat
because we have celebrationsevery other week, it seems. But

(29:13):
I have grown up with this churchand I've seen their kids of many
members from the age of well,one was wasn't even born and now
she is 14.
And the other ones, you know,when they got here, they were, I
think, like, 9 or 10, and nowthey're in their twenties, you
know. And I spend so much timewith them every single day. So I

(29:35):
invest my life. And it's crazybecause now that I'm a pastor,
and when I was younger, I usedto, like, talk to them as, to
the kids and be like, hey, youneed to do this. You need to do
this.
You need to do this. And I haveparents now who come up to me
and says, thank you so much forinvesting your time in my child.
You know, he won't listen to me,but he will listen to you. But
it takes saying what'snecessary, whether it's good or

(29:59):
not, you know, where you've beencorrection. So that's what I
mean by investing, not justshowing up on Sunday, say, Hey,
how's it going?
And listen to a sermon and walkout the door. No. Hey. How's it
going? Oh, that's terrible.
What can I do for you? Let'slet's meet up this week. How
about let's let's go ahead andmeet up on Wednesday for
breakfast or whatever. You know,let's get together because,
like, I don't know about you,but my church members live

(30:20):
within a 30 to 45 minutedistance of me. That means I
have the possibility of going totheir house.
I have the possibility ofmeeting them somewhere and say,
let's just talk. Like, I don'thave to be, you know, no sooner
to talk to you about this thing.I can just meet you somewhere.
We can have a casual lunch, andI can really listen to your
heart, listen to your mind, andallow me to truly invest in your

(30:42):
life. You know?
And that's what church, in myopinion, should be. I think, we
should be able to able to seepeople grow from what they were
into who God wants them to be.And that is a privilege as a
pastor, and I think that's whatthe church should be. But
unfortunately, it's often notthe case.

T.J. (31:04):
Yeah. There is a wide chasm between church attendance
and being embraced and embracingthe people that are around you.
I would even add, Lucas, thatthe the aspect of you being in a

(31:27):
leadership role in the church,kind of that the temptation to
fall into the professional role.So you are the one making those
connections when really each andevery one of us within that
church or that community havethe responsibility of being
connected to each other beyondthe hour a week or 2 hours a

(31:48):
week that we have like saved up,you know, to all meet on Sunday.
Or if that's what we have togive or what we're willing to
give Mhmm.
You know, an hour to 2 hours tohalf a day on a Sunday,
Shouldn't that just be likeoverwhelmed with excitement? You
know, anticipation before youeven arrive, But, genuine

(32:11):
excitement to be in the presenceof other people, our loved ones,
our acquaintances, our friends,family, and almost have a
morning towards the end of itlike, oh no, I have to return.
Return back home or to work orto school or whatever it may be.
It seems like ideally, here I ambeing an idealist, is that we

(32:33):
would go through that big swingof emotions, excitement,
anticipation, and then thestudying of the word, the
fellowship, and joining oneanother's company. And then the
sadness towards the end of,like, oh, no.
Now we have to part. Mhmm. Butwe can do this all over again
later in in the week.

Lucas (32:49):
Yeah. Yeah.

T.J. (32:51):
And I I don't think that can be trained. You know, I I
think it you know, eachindividual has to to go through
that path and that process ontheir own. You know, it's to
preach it from a pulpit or apodium or maybe discussions like

(33:12):
this can kinda help frame ourminds to be able to do that. You
know, that worship on aWednesday or a Sunday really
isn't at 10 or 11. Worship isearlier in the moment in the
morning when you get up in inyour preparation is actually an
act of worship.

Lucas (33:30):
Yeah. Yeah. What what I was gonna say, I think, our
individual culture clashesagainst the relational reality
of God. Mhmm. And we as imagebearers of God need to realize
that when my individualitypushes everything out, then I'm
failing in some way, shape, orform.
You know, I I dislike so much somuch this cultural idea that,

(33:54):
like, I'm 18 Now I'mindependent. You know, you can't
tell me what to do. And I'mlike, wait a minute. How did you
go from 2 minutes ago beingdependent on your parents to not
being fully dependent becauseyou're 18 year old. Like, that
that is not true.
You're always going to need acommunity. You're always gonna
need others. You cannot findyour reality or your true self

(34:19):
within oneself without a groupof people. You know?

T.J. (34:21):
Mhmm.

Lucas (34:22):
I, I I think it's it is it is a delusion that we teach
our kids. And so delusion thatwe feed with the constant, like,
oh, no. It's your money. You'rethis. You're that.
Like, no. You you and me justthink about the fact that can I
do my job all by myself, mycompany, or to remove everybody
else? You know? Like, no. Do wehave this interview by

(34:42):
ourselves?
No. No. We cannot. You know, youneed me and I need you Mhmm. To
first things that happen.
So I think coming to the realunderstanding and the reality of
the fact that we need oneanother and we were creative for
one another. It it really bringsout the the true nature of
oneself, you know, and I alsothink this is very true. You
know, I am blind to my ownprejudice. I am blind to my own

(35:06):
racism, if you will, you know,to my own things within me. But
if you are looking at me, you'reable to say, hey.
I see this and I see that andyou said this and you did that.
Is that biblically correct? AndI can say, yeah, it is. And then
think about it a little deeper,like, may maybe it's not. No.
I didn't I see that. Right? Sowe we definitely need one

(35:30):
another, and that's somethingthat I think the church is
seeming to forget. That I canjust listen to a podcast. I can
listen to the songs I enjoybecause that's my type of
worship.
You know? I can listen to thispastor because it really feeds
my needs, my wants, you know?It's crazy because healing
really comes when I'm able toconnect with someone else, and

(35:51):
they can say, oh, I went throughsomething similar. Can we can we
can we walk through thistogether? You know, otherwise,
we kind of when we're so intoourselves, we just continue to
spiral into deeper and deeperholes of depression.
It seems, you know, we needsomeone else to pull us out of
those things. And that onlyhappens in community or only can
happen. At least that's what Ibelieve.

T.J. (36:11):
Yeah. And and I think it's human nature for us to be
resistant to leave the familiar.

Lucas (36:17):
Mhmm.

T.J. (36:17):
And but if I have somebody like Lucas to be able to say,
let's try this together, let'sstudy the word together, let's
eat at this restaurant together,whatever it may be, whether it's
superficial or very deep. Thenthat, those fears or that

(36:38):
anxiety, being scared islessened because you're doing it
with another person. And thenyou have a shared experience
that you would never had if itwas solo. And then I think, that
also brings in, empathy beingable to view the world through
another pair of eyes that aredifferent than mine. Mhmm.

(37:01):
And I can't do that if I'm bymyself. The solitude is great. I
we're not dismissing solitude.

Lucas (37:09):
No. No. By no means. By no means. But

T.J. (37:11):
yeah. I I'm I'm able I don't know if you're this way,
Lucas. I'm able to self reflectbetter alone where Mhmm. Places
where it's quiet or lessdistracted. Yeah.
So it's a both and.

Lucas (37:26):
Yeah. But there there's a difference between solitude and
loneliness. You know?

T.J. (37:29):
And I

Lucas (37:29):
I I I believe most people function out of loneliness and
not solitude. You know? Yeah.Yeah. And it's funny because I I
I become aware the older I getthat superficial and deep God is
in between all of that.
I think, you know, God is happywhen we go out to the park and

(37:50):
play games as much as he is whenwe go out and read scripture,
you know, tell people about ourfaith or just live life
together. Because all that we doought to bring glory to God. Not
that it can't sometimes can orsometimes it does, you know,
should always everything we doshould bring glory to God. That
should be our default. Yeah.

T.J. (38:12):
Lucas, tell me about this call to ministry. Where did that
begin, and and what path didthat take you on?

Lucas (38:23):
It took me in a long path. It began as a child
actually. It's it's funny. Yeah.When I became ordained or the
day of my ordination at mychurch, when the priest came
down, I gave a sermon andthere's so many 4 things that I
wanted to be my entire life.
You know, when you ask a child,what do you wanna be? You know,
there's only 4 things that I'vealways said. I want to be a

(38:43):
doctor. I want to be a chef. Iwant to be a comedian or I want
to be a soccer player.

T.J. (38:51):
Okay.

Lucas (38:52):
I never said I wanted to be a pastor. There's only 4
things I always wanted to be,and there's only one thing I
knew I would be, and that was apath. And it was interesting
because, I love this fordifferent professions. But then
I realized to be a doctor, youhave to read a lot and you have
to, be able to write correctlyand learn a bunch of stuff. And

(39:14):
one thing that I will say when Ibecame when I came to United
States, it messed up my brain.
I don't know what you say, like,with words. You know, I was
mixing it the 2 languagesbecause my brain was going
through the developmental periodwhere you're learning verbs,
nouns, and things like that. Andmy mind was like, which one's
which and which sound goes withwhat? So so that kind of made it

(39:36):
a little more difficult. And Ididn't realize until I was older
that, like, oh, this is kind ofdyslexia, but not something
somewhere in there.
I'm not sure what it is.

T.J. (39:44):
Well But

Lucas (39:44):
it took a long time for me to

T.J. (39:45):
Let let me defend you a bit too. So even the structure
of a sentence differs betweenthe two languages. You know, the
placement of adjectives andverbs, where does the noun
place. And then to make it evenmore interesting, No. But,

(40:06):
There's commonalities, ofcourse.

Lucas (40:08):
No. But,

T.J. (40:09):
there's common there's commonalities, of course. But
Yeah. But it's different. Andthen think about what age you
were during that time.

Lucas (40:17):
Yeah. So so because of because of that, it it just
became very difficult. So Iremember just always struggling
in school with language artsspecifically, which is a
struggle to get through. So thatone kinda threw medical school
at the window because he wasjust too much of the time. Then
to become a chef, I realized,like, you you have to spend a
lot of time in the kitchen,which I didn't mind, but soccer

(40:38):
kinda trumped everything.
And, and then life just happenedwhen I came to this country.
Jokes didn't translate the same.You know, comedy was a little
different. So I still lovetelling jokes. I still love
making fun of situation, thingslike that, but it wasn't quite
the same.
I mean, I'm finding love tocomedy. I've always been on the

(40:58):
comedy, but I'm finding morenow. And it's funny because I
remember I can remember who thepastor was, but we went to
Hispanic retreat for thedenomination at Bethel College.
And this pastor gave a sermon,and the man told so many jokes
while preaching. I was havingprobably one of the best times
I've had at church, because hewas just like telling the truth

(41:19):
of God, but then making comedicjokes.
And I was like, oh, is thisallowed? Like, are we are we
allowed to laugh? You know? Butbut even though that was good,
it started to kinda trumpeverything. So I remember I just
focused all my energy.
But I remember ever since I wasa child, I remember just having
dreams of writing down sermons,preaching truth of God. Like,

(41:40):
thinking about how can I expressthis correctly? Like, what is
this saying here? And how can Ishare it with someone and truly,
you know, not only that, butI've always had this deep desire
to love people well? Like one ofmy dreams growing up as well was
I wanted to have a company, notbecause I wanted to make money,
but I because I wanted to showmy employees what it needs to be

(42:01):
taken care of.
Mhmm. Like, how can I have acompany in which you can have
the best medical care? In whichyou can work 5 days a week and
you can go home when your day isdone and not have to worry about
anything. You know? How can Iprovide you with proper meals
and things like that?
Because I just want you to knowthat you're valued. And and
that's always been there in myheart and my mind. So, like, the

(42:22):
care for people has been anaspect of, like, that it just
has always been there. And Iremember when I as I grew up, I
saw because my mother has beenthe pastor all all my life
pretty much. I saw how peopletreated my mother, and I didn't
like it.
I didn't like the fact that youinvest you literally invest your
life to someone else's life canbe better, you know, and you try

(42:45):
to bring the truth of the gospeland you say this and I try to
live life with them, and theyliterally just treat you
sometimes the worst theypossibly can, and they'll say a
better thanks to you. So becauseof that, which you didn't seem
very appealing to me. You mean Iget to invest my life and people
don't want me there? What? No.

(43:05):
So because of that, I invest themost of my energy into sports. I
was quite good at it too. So theonly thing that didn't work for
me is that I'm very short. Sobut other than that, I was
actually quite good at it andenjoyed it tremendously. But it
wasn't until later in life whenI was 21 years old that I got to
a point that I have to realize Ihave to make a choice because

(43:27):
it's gonna cause me to leave theUnited States if I wanna
continue pursuing soccer.
And that means I could be gonefor 1 to 10 years. You know,
that's just a long time to walkaway from your family, from
friends, from everything, youknow. So I had a difficult
conversation with God at thattime. And I said this
unfortunate words that, I don'tknow if I meant them or not, but

(43:50):
I I I clearly said, God, I wantyour will for my life. If that
is soccer, let it be.
If it's preaching, let it be.And then a few months later, in
a soccer game, I take a hit tomy right leg and I lose 30% of
my ACL. Wow. I was unable towalk for almost a year. My my

(44:13):
leg swelled up to twice thesize.
My knee was it was justdisgusting. I ended up having,
like I said, lost 30% of my ACL.Had, deep bone bruising, so I
couldn't put my knee together.Had lacerated ligaments, the
ones that were gonna cross werecuts, in places. Unfortunately,
nothing fully snapped.
It was just very very welldamage apparently. Wow.

T.J. (44:35):
That's a long recovery. Were you was it from the ball or
was it from No.

Lucas (44:39):
So I had I I I settled the ball with my left, and I was
pivoting on my right leg. Andthe player decided I'll go get
the ball through the knee. So mybottom of the knee went one way
in the opposite way. Yeah. So itwas it was really bad, really
bad.
The doctor said he's gonna takeabout 8 months to be clinically

(45:01):
healed and then possibly a yearto come back from it. And the
reason being I did not know thiswas not only that I got injured,
but I kept my knee bent, whichcaused the muscles to atrophy.
So when the physical therapystarted, it was terrible because
my tendons and my muscles wereatrophy to such a degree that
the leg didn't wanna fullyextend. And when it did fully
extend, the knee had deep bonebruising. So when it came

(45:24):
together, it was like pinneedles going into my knee caps.
So it was pain either way. Wow.So

T.J. (45:29):
I got the case up. You had to undo what you were naturally
doing, a natural position beforeyou could get to the real
physical therapy. Yeah. So youhad physical pre physical
therapy for physical therapy.

Lucas (45:41):
Yeah. And it was it was it was the worst. Because I
literally pay someone to push myknee down so it was straying
back out again. And once it did,he was like needles going into
my knee. He was just he was somuch pain.
I remember being so mad at God.But then thinking back to that
prayer, like, I guess I reallyhave to mean that, you know. And

(46:01):
I'm not saying God hurt me, butGod was making a very clear to
me. Like, this is what youpromise. And do you did you
actually mean it?
Because, I mean, I was able tocome back to soccer. I'm I'm
able to play now and things likethat. But he was like, I was
pretty much closing that doorand saying, yeah. But it's not
gonna there's not a reason Icalled before. So let's take all
the other options so you don'thave you came back out type of

(46:23):
situation.

T.J. (46:24):
So yeah. Whether God did it or not, what you needed was a
full stop. Yeah. Yeah. And youand you got a full stop
physically.

Lucas (46:35):
Yeah. And we believe that, you know, God will use
every situation for my good.Mhmm. And like I said, I don't I
don't believe God's anorchestrator of of evil or pain
in our lives, but it's prettymuch so use it to bring about
his purpose. And that'sdefinitely a situation where I
can see that.
So after that, I became verymuch committed to, what I
believe was my actual calling inlife, which is to master

(46:58):
people's hearts, and to to leada congregation to see and
reflect the part of God morehonestly and, you know,
genuinely to everyone they meet.And since then, it took me a
while to get back to school, butI was able to go back to Bethel.
And I went to Bethel, and then Ieventually went through MTS. And

(47:19):
now I'm here pastoring thechurch where I

T.J. (47:22):
grew up. Did you, start your education at Bethel
University?

Lucas (47:27):
No. I actually went to college like you were supposed
to at 18, 19. I went to NorthGeorgia College, which at the
time was called GainesvilleState College. Now it's North
Georgia College. I went therefor about a year or 2.
Didn't really study. All I didwas play games and stop doing it
because I realized I was wastingtime and money. Yeah. So I went

(47:47):
and worked for a time and then Iwent back to school. And it's
funny because when I went toBethel, I was just I was there
for education.
Mhmm. So all I did was study.Yeah.

T.J. (48:02):
What was your family's reaction to, your calling into
ministry?

Lucas (48:10):
It was it was, I guess, it was very positive.

T.J. (48:13):
Mhmm.

Lucas (48:13):
They they all seem like, yeah, that's what we were meant
to do. You know, type ofattitude. Yeah. They were they
were my my parents wereextremely happy. Yeah.
My siblings were just siblings,I guess. Mhmm. But no. But
everything was it was good. Itit seemed like because up to
that point, I've done everythingin the church that he possibly

(48:34):
could do.
I work with kids, work withyouth. I was I clean. I was an
elder. I I I preach every nowand then. I was a youth pastor.
I led worship for a number ofyears, you know, so everything
is like you almost seem like itwas the next step if you will.
Like, because I I tried to doeverything in the church except

(48:55):
that one thing. Yeah. But, no.But it was it was very positive.

T.J. (49:01):
So after you graduated from Memphis Theological
Seminary, you returned back toEl Redeel, the church that you
you essentially grew up in.

Lucas (49:13):
Mhmm.

T.J. (49:14):
Why that church? Why serve that church?

Lucas (49:17):
Yeah. So, the main reason I was actually higher is because
our church is moving towards amulticultural setting. We've
been a monoculture church for anumber of years. But we have
come to we realize that the factthat our demographic has changed
so greatly, that is a need tofunction multi culturally. Mhmm.

(49:40):
Because of that, I was actuallyhigher to not only engage the
broad Hispanic population, whichwe do have, but also realize
that a lot of those Hispanicsare marrying Americans are
marrying Asians, are you know?So there's a lot of interracial
marriages happening withinsociety. And how can we best
meet those needs if we can onlyfunction in 1, specific culture?

(50:01):
And because of that, the churchthought it'd be not only
necessary, but it almost seemedlike God was moving us in this
direction of the fact that wedefinitely have to engage all of
the community, not just a smallaspect of community. And this
was not an easy choice because,I don't know how where you are,
but, immigrant communitiesalmost have to protect certain

(50:22):
spaces.
Not because we think people areevil, but it's because when you
go to your church, you wannaspeak your language. You know?
You wanna be able to beunderstood without having to
translate. You wanna know thatwhen you say something,
someone's gonna be, oh, yeah.Yeah.
I understand that. You know, youdon't have to give a long
explanation of what you justsaid.

T.J. (50:41):
Right.

Lucas (50:41):
And that's how the the church has functioned for a
number of years for a lot ofpeople. So because of that, we
were kinda hesitant like, shouldwe do this, God? What what
should we do? You know? So theydecided, yeah, we need to move
in this direction, but how canwe do in that way that will be
truly God honoring?
And we'll still try to keepthose things, like, intact. That
was so it's a very difficulttask to juggle all these things

(51:02):
together, you know. But yeah.That's the reason I came back,
and that's the reason I I feellike felt like I was once again,
going back to the original thingwhen I came, you know, it's
kinda like the moment I wasbrought here for. Mhmm.

T.J. (51:17):
What was that feeling like to kinda have all of that come
together? Purpose, education,calling, immediate future. I
mean, everything is kind ofcoming together in one space and
one time.

Lucas (51:36):
Yeah. I I I don't know how to honestly express
something I can say is that Idon't think many people can
honestly say, like, this isexactly for the reason I was
created for. Mhmm. And he almostfelt like that for me. Like, in
that moment, I thoughteverything in my life has
happened for this specificmoment and for for me to be this

(51:56):
person moving forward, you know,into this space so I can
function well.
No. It's it's it's amazing tosee how God's hand has been
through all of these things tolead me here so I can be able to
engage a multiple because, Idon't know how many people can
do what I do and and function atthat level. You know? Something

(52:17):
I do on Sundays is that I Ipreach in 2 different languages,
and and I just translate as Igo. You know, my brain is not
thinking about, like, how can Iphrase this better, you know, or
can I say this?
No. It just just happens. Idon't have to like, I write up
most of my notes in English, butthen I I'm able to read in
Spanish. I'm able to say thingsin, Spanish. And I do fail

(52:38):
sometimes primarily because Ifunction in English, but, I do a
better job than most.
And once again, it's because ofthe way God ordained things.
This is so funny because I have2 brothers, 1 older and 1
younger, and neither one of themretained the level of Spanish
that I did. Mhmm. And why isthat? I I don't know.
Because we grew up in the samehome. We had the same similar
experiences, you know. Forwhatever reason, their brains

(53:00):
didn't do that, and mine did.And once again, the thing is the
the sovereignty of God in thatbecause I don't know how else
you explained that.

T.J. (53:10):
Yeah. What you described, not everybody has that ability
and and to bounce back and forthquickly. I don't I don't know
the mechanics behind it, like,if that's using 2 sides of the
brain. I mean, I have no idea.I'm sure somebody out there
does.

Lucas (53:26):
Mhmm.

T.J. (53:26):
But for our purposes, for our conversation, It seems like
it's two sides of the brainbecause you're intertwining 2
worlds and yet keeping themseparate. Worlds of language,
worlds of culture, perspectives,and, man, it takes a creative,
fast mind to be able to do that.And I'm one of those folks who'd

(53:50):
be, well, let me go off here ina corner and ponder this for a
while, ponder a response and andit doesn't work that way in in
your setting, in your context.

Lucas (54:00):
Mhmm. Yeah. Well, but thanks be to God.

T.J. (54:04):
Yeah. Yeah. What are some of the joys? You talked about
the challenges. But what aresome of the joys of serving a
congregation that ismulticultural?
And and kinda unpack whatmulticultural looks like there
at the church and maybe evenmore broadly speaking in the
United States from yourperspective? It's it's a phrase

(54:24):
it's a phrase that gets thrownaround a lot. So

Lucas (54:27):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, Yeah. I'm gonna do my best.
And when I usually speak, Ispeak in generalities. So I
wanna be very careful with thatbecause I'm not speaking to
everybody specifically, like,this is how everybody's
experiences this, you know.Mhmm. But broadly have I seen
it, you know, multiculturalismmeans is when more than 1. So it

(54:48):
could be 2 or however many, youknow, because, for example, my
sister-in-law, she's American,but her dad is Puerto Rican.
Her mom is Mexican, you know,and she grew up in Florida, so
that's a whole differentculture. You know. So you have
all of these things justfunctioning in one person.
Right?

T.J. (55:05):
And see, let let me interrupt you just for a minute.
This is where the the comediancomes out. So for those who are
listening, Lucas had a grin onhis face as he said that.
Wonderful people in Florida,you're wonderful, he says it
with jest. Yeah.
I just wanted to give context.

Lucas (55:27):
Yeah. So so multiculturalism just means more
than one culture present. Thatmeans more way more than one way
to function, more one way toread someone. You know, for
example, I think a clear examplethat I can use is, a white
American, specifically, whenthey greet someone, whether it
be male or female, they shakehands. Nice to meet you.

(55:48):
My name is whoever, you know.Mhmm. And that seem as very
polite. Now, Hispanic culture,almost all of them, not all of
them, but most will cover this,you know. When they see when a
man meets another man, theyshake hands and they'll do a
half hug.
Say, how are you now? Dependingon the level of closeness. Mhmm.
And there's a second one. Whenthe man meets a woman in

(56:10):
Colombian culture specificallyand some other ones may apply,
they'll shake hands, but thenthey'll do a half hug and then
they'll meet cheek to cheek andthey'll do like an air kiss if
you will.
Mhmm. And that is perfectlyacceptable. Now I challenge
anyone in that white setting totry to do that at your church
next Sunday. You know, Iremember doing that once with a

(56:31):
close friend of mine, and healmost got step like, woah. Why
are you guys so close to mywife?
I'm like, I'm just greeting her.Yeah. So then now think about
this for a moment. Now that Isaid that, think about a child
who's seen that at home everysingle day. Whoever said he goes
to his grandmother's house, tohis uncles, he sees his dad do

(56:51):
that.
And now he goes to school andattempts to do that with his
white friends. Mhmm. You know?Or almost anybody, I guess,
who's not Hispanic. Are theygonna understand that they're
not?
Mhmm. So that's where that extraculture comes in. Now that he
has now this individual has tounderstand that when I go to
this spaces, this culturalpractice, which is perfectly
okay with the Hispanic cultureand in my family culture, is no

(57:12):
longer okay in this separateculture.

T.J. (57:14):
Mhmm. So

Lucas (57:15):
that's that needs to be multicultural. It means that I
have to be able to gauge theculture that I'm, engaging with
because I have multipledifferent perspectives in my
mind that I function with andit's perfectly okay, but it may
not be okay somewhere else.Mhmm. So I guess it's a simple
way to think aboutmulticulturalism. The fact that
I have different perspectivesfunctioning in me at all times,

(57:35):
but I have to gauge which one'snecessary pretending of where I
go.
You know? I think the secondpart of your question, what are
some of the joys that I've seen?

T.J. (57:43):
Yeah. And let's let's speak specifically at El Radil.
Yeah. Because you've been partof that congregation. Well, you
grew up in it essentially.
Mhmm. Yeah. And so you've beenable to witness it it changing,
and its needs change and itsministry change.

Lucas (57:59):
Yeah. Yeah. So I I think one of the clearest one that I
see often is the fact that whenwe now do bible studies and the
fact that we now do our sermonsin both languages, the 2nd
generation or or firstgeneration kids who have grown
up here now actually seem to becapturing more of the

(58:20):
scriptures. Mhmm. Because theywere like, yeah.
When your mom preaches, youknow, we understand mostly what
she says, but her Spanish is sohigh that I have no idea
sometimes what she has said.

T.J. (58:30):
Mhmm.

Lucas (58:30):
But now that we have translation, I'm able to engage
better with the sermon. I'm ableto engage better with the text
now on Wednesday nights when wedo bible study. And not only
that, but they're able to askquestions from their
perspective, you know, which isso much different because often
what happens is when you have adifficult time communicating

(58:50):
with someone, you know, youfrustration gets in and then no
one really knows what'shappening. You know? Yeah.
But something that's happenedand one of the joys is that I
become almost like a mediator orsomeone able to engage properly
with the question and concernthis individual has because
they're able to use languagethey feel comfortable in, and
they feel like they're reallybeing understood. You know? So

(59:10):
that's been a joy. Just beingable to sit there and be able to
listen and be able to give anadded response or be able to
connect to people having aconversation. There's been a
misunderstanding because oflanguage, not because they're
really mad at each other.
There's been a misunderstandingbecause of it. And I'm able to
be that mediator in between andbe able to bring about and the
wonderful thing about it is thatyou can just start help start a
conversation, and then thepeople become aware like, wait.

(59:34):
He or she said this, but whatcould they possibly have meant?
Yeah. And that's somethinghappens with people who speak
more than one language.
They usually ask that question.Okay. They said that, but what
what did they actually mean? Youknow? It's like Right.
So that's an immediate joy thatI have noticed Yeah. In my
congregation.

T.J. (59:53):
And we talked about this off mic and I I wanted to bring
it up again at One thing thatwould be helpful is for English
speakers or Anglos is a Hispanicchurch is not a monoculture. So,

(01:00:16):
we'll use that as an example.There are beautiful folks,
wonderful folks from differentparts of the world who are
members of the church. And so tobe from Guatemala is different
than, you know, having roots inColombia. And so there's there's
nuances there in in in languageand in culture and just approach

(01:00:42):
to life, and we're talking aboutapproach to scripture.
But let me say less and you youjump in and say more because
you're actually on the frontlines.

Lucas (01:00:52):
Mhmm. Yeah. So so the the the biggest challenges that I
face or with regards to that isthe fact that well, the the the
most pressing one is the factthat I have to learn something
called neutral Spanish, which ismeans I try to take away as many
colloquial terms that I have orthat I have learned from
Colombia and try to just make itas neutral. So when I speak,

(01:01:15):
people's faces on twist and turnlike, what did you just say? You
know?

T.J. (01:01:20):
That must be hard for a comedian, though. No. Seriously.
Alright. So I've interruptedyou.
But, a good comedian will usethose nuances. They use a phrase
or word that may have doublemeanings or triple meanings, and
that makes it funny. What doesthis comedian mean? Does it mean
this definition of that word,this definition or phrase? So,

(01:01:44):
woah.
You really have to strip backquite a bit.

Lucas (01:01:47):
It's funny because you have to, like, know what moment
you're in. Mhmm. Because, like,is this is this a funny moment?
Those are fine. But this wasn'tsupposed to be.
Why are they making faces? Youknow, that means you didn't
communicate well enough or whatyou said might mean something
different for that individual.You know? Mhmm. So so that's one
thing for sure.
Secondly, yes. And this is anunfortunate side effect of sin

(01:02:11):
in the world. But the reasonmost immigrants are in this
country is not because they justwanted to leave their country.
They're here because they had agreat necessity, mostly
economically, you know. For someof them, it's a safety issue,
you know.
For some of them, it's justprimarily poverty that forced
them out of their own country.No one wants to leave their
country just because they'relike, they have too much, you

(01:02:31):
know, at least because they havea need. So when it comes to
that, that's one of thechallenge that I face usually is
the fact that most of the lenswhich people have read scripture
is a need of necessity. And itmight begin there, but then it
it becomes something else,hopefully, where God is more
than just giving me money, youknow, but he's supplying my

(01:02:53):
needs in every way and mostly myspiritual need of salvation in
him. But the biggest challengethat I run into is this almost
like I don't know what you willcall it, but it's like a a the
gospel of need of, like, youknow, because I have nowhere
else to pull from, you know.
And in a lot of ways, it's agood thing, but in some ways, it
becomes dangerous and becomesmanipulative people, you know,

(01:03:16):
because I have had people Ialways say this, like, the
Cumberland Church, we don't hideor we try not to hide,
hopefully, you know. We werevery much forward. This is what
we believe. This is whereconfession of faith says, you
know. You have any questions,you're more than welcome to ask
them.
You know, I I personally believethe scripture is big enough to
answer for itself. I don't haveto, try to sway you from not

(01:03:37):
asking questions, you know. No.But I'll have a lot of people
who have these ideas and I'llask them, like, where did you
get that idea from? And there'susually 1 or 2 passages that are
not properly contextualized.
And now they have this olddoctrine teaching behind it and
it's like, oh, okay. How can wehow can the gospel not like,
let's go back and maybe readsome of the things you you have
written. Let's put them in thecontext of the rest of the text,

(01:03:59):
you know. So that's one thingthat I know I I deal with
occasionally with some of mychurch members because once
again, it's this their firsttheir first experience usually
with the faith has been someindividual trying to gain
something from them. You know,or trying to steal something
from me.
Like, I know one of thechallenges that we face is that,
Hispanics at times havedifficulty tithing to the

(01:04:21):
church. And it's not becausehere they have less, it's
because they've you heard aboutthat pastor who stole a lot of
money from so and so, you know?And I don't know how much of my
church deal with them. But inHispanic countries, it's it's a
huge thing, it seems, whereevery pastor is trying to steal
what you have and just there'sso little, you know, like, we're
trying to hold on to what wehave. So, yes, that is one of

(01:04:42):
the biggest challenges that Iknow I face is just trying to
undo wrong doctrines.
They have been based on the onthe scarcity and fear the
individuals had in theircountry.

T.J. (01:04:54):
I found it interesting what you said about, our
approach to scripture. So amainline approach may be the
framework of necessity. I'mgonna read the New and the Old
Testament with this lens becausethat's my circumstances. And not
that we would want to take thataway, but there are it is

(01:05:16):
another way to approach. So theframe of necessity and grace or
and discipleship.
There are other lenses to thereare other aspects of us to bring
to the text and just being awareof how much we are actually
bringing to the text as we studyit and pray over it and in

(01:05:37):
ministry, prepare a sermon or astudy for. That requires a lack
of self awareness that I thinksometimes we are reluctant to
do. Oh, because going back towhat you said earlier, that
familiar. I'm familiar this way.That God is going to provide my

(01:06:00):
needs because my circumstancesdon't allow that, or I'm not
able to do it alone, or whateverit may be.
Yeah. But only reading thescriptures with that lens,
prevents us from reading otherpassages in their fullness.

Lucas (01:06:19):
Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. And I and my my desire is this.
Because I think it's veryimportant to know where the
individual stands with regardsto their worldview or the
perspective that they hold.
And now challenge it and letthem know God will supply your
needs. But what else can God do?Mhmm. What else can God bring
about in your life? Right?

(01:06:41):
Because that moves me fromsaying, God will provide to know
that God now God gets to decidewhat is moral correct in my
life. Now god gets to show me.God gets to say, you know what?
You're a very pridefulindividual. God gets to say all
these things to me.
So hopefully, you may beginthere, but now that they come to
church and they're be able to bebrought in, like, their their
perspective becomes wider and,oh, god can not only do this,

(01:07:04):
but he can do all these otherthings. And then like I said,
ultimately, I hope they realizeI can fully depend on this god
and give my life completely overto him. Not just in my stomach,
but in my heart, in my mind, ineverything I do. You know? So
hopefully, that's what happensand hopefully, that's what
happened in our church.

(01:07:25):
Yeah.

T.J. (01:07:26):
Lucas, you talked about the Cumberland Presbyterian
Church, the denomination that weboth serve in. What hopes do you
have for the church at large,not just at El Radeel or
Tennessee Georgia Presbytery,but the entire denomination and
this collection of people wholove each other, share a faith,

(01:07:49):
have similar histories, andwhose eyes are are pointed
towards the future. Mhmm. Whatcould that future look like?

Lucas (01:07:59):
Well, this is this is a difficult question, I believe,
especially at the moment.Because I don't know if you know
this, but I've heard this once.I thought it was hilarious and I
thought, but it's also veryapplicable. The Cumberlands are
usually called the frozenchosen. I don't I don't know.
And one of my desires and goalsor hopes for the denomination is

(01:08:23):
is for god to give us passion.Mhmm. And not just because we
have been a great churchintellectually speaking, I
think. We have been a greatchurch in certain ministerial
aspects, you know. But I feellike one thing that we have
become is very, like,comfortable with the fact we do

(01:08:43):
these things well, so let's justcontinue doing those things.
Mhmm. And we've done it thisway, so let's keep doing it this
way. You know? So I really oneof the hopes that I have is that
people will once again becomepassionate. Once again, I wanna
be very careful and say this isa generality from what I've
seen.
I'm not saying this iseverybody's reality nor do I
believe every church is thisway. No. But by and large, our

(01:09:05):
nation is very focused on, like,okay. We do these things and
that's okay, and we'll continuedoing them. So I really hope
that God will like, I'm not evensaying great awakening type of
situation, but just forindividuals to become more aware
of the fact that they arecapable of doing more than
they've had and that their livesare always examples of Christ.

(01:09:31):
And they'd be passionate aboutthis. I I said this, a few days
ago in one of our studies. Thefact that we have lost the, we
have lost the practice of beingproud of what we do, you know,
or or or, or given our best, youknow. We teach our kids nowadays
that, like, you know, whenhomework's due, you you you

(01:09:53):
those kids do it like the nightbefore or, you know, they try to
get away with it. How little canI do and still pass is the
mentality that we have nowadays?
Mhmm. A few years ago more a lotof years ago, we used to think,
how can I present something thatis worth all that I am? Mhmm.
And we usually take the sameperspective with our faith

(01:10:14):
practice. How can I do justenough so god will be pleased
with me today?
You know? And I really hope thatthe church will move back to a
spirit of how can I present thebest to god today in everything
I do? Mhmm. From my words, to mywork, to my actions, to my
interactions with my kids, withmy wife. How can I love them so
well that I can say I'm proud ofthe things I did today for God?

(01:10:36):
You know? And I'm not beingsaying we have to be prideful or
anything like that, but justknow that you gave your best
today because you know you wantto honor God with what you were
doing, you know? Yeah. And Ihope

T.J. (01:10:46):
And I would add to that, with passion. With passion.
Yeah. With with vigor

Lucas (01:10:52):
to be able to

T.J. (01:10:53):
do it like, wow. Look how excited Lucas is

Lucas (01:10:56):
Mhmm. To

T.J. (01:10:57):
be able to greet people, you know, or or to say that
prayer, or Mhmm. You can see itin his eyes that he really
wanted to tell that joke. Youknow what I mean? No. I but with
passion.
Yeah. You know? More than justgoing through the motions, but
with passion. I want to be here.I want to share this.

Lucas (01:11:17):
Yeah. It's funny because, someone gave me this this
someone told me this when I whenI was getting married. And I
didn't understand at the time,but now I I I definitely get it
a lot more.

T.J. (01:11:28):
He said married.

Lucas (01:11:31):
Almost 10 years now.

T.J. (01:11:32):
Okay.

Lucas (01:11:32):
Yeah. Yeah. But he said he said, Lucas, get ready
because nothing will sanctifyyou like marriage. Nothing will
expose your flaws, yourselfishness, and wait till you
have kids because then yourealize, man, I I could be doing
better. You know?
Mhmm. And it's humbling. And theonly reason I share this to

(01:11:53):
share a second story, my son isnow about to be 3. And I
remember watching him pick up arock that was almost as big as
him. And my my man was going totown.
He was like, you know, reallyjust trying and trying and
trying and trying. In thatmoment, I felt like I was asking
the question, when was the lasttime you put that much effort
into anything?

T.J. (01:12:14):
Mhmm.

Lucas (01:12:15):
When was the last time you had that much passion for
something where you literallyleft everything on the floor
because you couldn't do anymore?You know? And I really feel like
if I have one hope for thechurch is peace then. Mhmm. That
every minister, that everymember of our church can go to
bed that night and say, I couldhave done more fruit of the work
today.

(01:12:36):
You know? And what a joy thatwas, and I'm hope that God will
give me life tomorrow so I cando it all over again. You know?
That's one thing I would say,when I look at our church.

T.J. (01:12:46):
Yeah. And to be able to share that good news.

Lucas (01:12:49):
Mhmm.

T.J. (01:12:50):
Yeah. Because It's a collective passion and to
exhaust ourselves till we'recompletely worn out Mhmm. And
sharing the good news. Voice,hands, feet, music. Yeah.
What whatever whatever tool orgift has been given to you to be
able to utilize that to whereyou're just worn out.

Lucas (01:13:13):
Yeah. Because the crazy thing is that people, like, we
won't even have to say anything.People just be able to look at
us and, like, the scripturesays, and give glory to God.
Like, wow. Look at these people.
What do they have that we don'thave? You know?

T.J. (01:13:27):
Mhmm.

Lucas (01:13:28):
And can I help it as well? You know, it will draw
them to us without us having tosay much.

T.J. (01:13:33):
I think that's a great challenge, an achievable one if
we wanna go back tomeasurements. I think it is
something that we can docollectively. And it is a we
thing. Yeah. You know, becauseit can't just be, you know, 30%
of Cumberland Presbyterian or 18or whatever arbitrary number.

(01:13:54):
It's all of us together.

Lucas (01:13:56):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And like you said a minute ago, I
think if I get to see someoneelse do that, it will encourage
my heart. I'm like, no.
I can do this too. You know, I Iget what can I do? It will
motivate me to action when I seesomeone else, you know, given
their all. So contagious.

T.J. (01:14:14):
Lucas, we talked, a little bit about books and I think we
mentioned a movie. Can'tremember if that was on or off
mic. But what books, movies,what kind of music would you
recommend for somebody that,wants to deepen their faith or

(01:14:36):
explore faith

Lucas (01:14:38):
Mhmm.

T.J. (01:14:41):
Is thinking about ministry or just wants to make a greater
impact through the grace of Godin the people that they're
surrounded by?

Lucas (01:14:51):
Yeah. So I actually thought of 3 books that have
been very helpful, and Icouldn't find one of them, but
it was written by our very own,Lynn Thomas. Okay. And I believe
the book's called Grace. It'slike I wanna dance, I believe,
is the title of it.

T.J. (01:15:07):
Yeah. That's one of his newer he's written more than
one, so it's it's not

Lucas (01:15:11):
One of his newer ones. He gave it to me this last general
assembly. That's when I got it.But I read that book and he
primarily focuses on the graceof God and how he not only
guides us, he does not onlysaves us, but he gives the power
to bring about change throughthe spirit of God so we may be
able to really live out ourfaith correctly. You know?

(01:15:33):
And I always say it's a greatbook because he gave me a new
perspective because I oftenthought of grace something we
just receive. But if Iunderstood Lent, you can correct
me if I'm wrong. He said, notonly does not only do we receive
this grace, but empowers us tobring about change in our life
for the things that God wants tochange. So I thought it was such
a wonderful thing because heshows that God doesn't only

(01:15:53):
receive us, but he changes us.He he enacts his will in our
lives to bring about what istruly godly.
So I thought it was a great bookand once again, it's a
Cumberland, a lifelongCumberland Mhmm. Who wrote it.
So there's a lot of great thingsin that book that I would,
highly encourage people to have.Another one that I thought was
good is just, mere Christianityby CS Lewis. I don't know if you

(01:16:16):
perhaps several people recommendthat book.
But the reason I I like thisbook is because it challenges
your brain to really think aboutwhat you think and what you
believe to be true. You know?And I I often tell people this,
you know, it takes just as muchfaith to be a Christian than to
be an atheist or anything else.I have to truly believe that

(01:16:37):
what I have believed is gonnaget me to wherever I wanna go or
wherever I hope you will takeme, you know. So, you know,
Christianity challenges yournotions about things.
And, you know, and and and froma perspective, there's, not so
much religious, but just a guykind of thinking out loud for
the rest of us. You know?

T.J. (01:16:54):
Mhmm.

Lucas (01:16:54):
So I think it's it's a great book. It could be
challenges your notions, and itchallenges just your, how you
think, about about whatevertopic, you know, because he he
he addresses several differentones. So it's pretty good. And
the last one that I read lastyear, which I thought it was
great, is a book called TotalTruth by Nancy Piercy. And this

(01:17:17):
book, once again, is in the samevein as CS Lewis because of
apologetics and really askingthe question, you know, the
things that you believe, how dothey really stack against the
truth that we have?
1, for natural revelation, thensecondly, from the divine
revelation. And once again, it'sit's it's such a great book

(01:17:39):
because it allows you and itgives you enough time to say,
well, what have I truly believein? You know? And is that belief
system adequate to meet all theneeds that that that I have
known that, but is it does itmeet even the its own
requirements? Because some ofthe religious systems that are
out there are self defeating andwe don't really think far enough

(01:18:01):
in them, you know.
And but the best thing is thathe asked the question of of
Christianity. Can the Christianfaith really say, do what he
says? You know? Is is the claimsof the scriptures actually do
that align with what the naturalworld tells us, you know, and
things like that. So I thinkthis is a great book that that
will help you come to a arealization that not only is

(01:18:24):
scripture reliable, but almostany other, if not all other
systems.
Let let me rephrase that. Allother systems fall short of what
the scriptures truly are andhave for us as the ultimate
truth of God. So that's a greatbook. It's a great book. It's a
it's a bit not not for beginnersmaybe, but it's a great resource

(01:18:45):
to have for sure.

T.J. (01:18:47):
You were talking about the Trinity book earlier. So this
book, do you have to have adictionary beside you to be able
to look up the words as you goalong? There are some books out
there like that.

Lucas (01:19:00):
Yeah. No. The the the author uses a lot of Greek and,
because he's he's really tryingto get you to understand those
things. So, yeah, you may needsome things, you know, But, hey,
if you have a computer or yourphone nearby, you can look up
some of those things fairlyquick, as well. But yeah.
Yeah.

T.J. (01:19:21):
Lucas, I have enjoyed this conversation immeasurably. This
is the most we've ever spoken,and so I've gotten to know you
through through our timetogether. And, man, I've really
appreciated it. You've given mesome things to think about more
deeply and it's been amazing tohear you share them because you

(01:19:44):
have thought deeply about someof the things that you have
shared with your faith and withyour ministry. And Yeah.
I enjoy that. Really do.

Lucas (01:19:53):
Oh, well, thank you. Thank you for your time, and
thank you for having me.

T.J. (01:19:58):
Thank you for listening to this episode of Cumberland Road.
If you enjoyed this faithconversation, check out the
other guest on Apple Podcast,Google, Spotify, and at
cumberlandroad.transistor.fm. Inclosing, I want to read from
Lynn Thomas' book, I Want toDance. The amazing thing about

(01:20:23):
grace is that sacrifice,selflessness, new behaviors, and
new directions in life are alldriven by enthusiasm and the
persistent feeling that one isfreely making their own
decisions. Thanks for listening.