Nick Chambers - Work, Family, & Ministry - Cumberland Road

Episode Transcript
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T.J. (00:02):
Here is The Cumberland Road, and I'm your host, TJ
Malinowski. The following is afaith conversation between 2
people who like to talk. NickChambers is a Cumberland
Presbyterian minister servingthe Camden and Walkerville

(00:25):
congregations in Arkansas whileowning and operating a trucking
company and raising 6 childrenwith his wife, Andrea. Nick
shares with me his life journey,stopping at pivotal moments in
his growing up years, his lifein the church, parenting, and

(00:47):
his ministry. Nick has lived aninteresting life. So, dear
friend, here is my faithconversation with Nick Chambers.
Nick, let let us start with, adifferent kind of question and

(01:11):
talk about the different andunique jobs that you've had. So
I'll start, and then you can youcan add to the list. At least,
I'll start with the ones that Iknow. You're a minister. You
were a bus driver at one time.You, at one point, repaired
smartphones, truck driver, heavyequipment, operator. Alright.

(01:36):
Start filling in the otherdifferent jobs that you've had
over the years.

Nick (01:41):
Okay. Let's let's start at the beginning.

T.J. (01:44):
Okay. Alright.

Nick (01:46):
The the first job I ever got paid for, my dad, was in log
and they had trucks, and, theyneeded somebody to clean trucks.
That was my first paid job,cleaning trucks in and out and
washing them.

T.J. (02:02):
Mhmm. So the cab and

Nick (02:04):
Yeah. Inside the cab. Me and my brother both started
doing it, and he didn't hedidn't like it much, so I wound
up with his. They had 4 trucks,and we started cleaning the
cabs. I think I paid $10.
We'd vacuum them out and, youknow, unroll the dash and
windows just on the inside. $10a truck. So I was probably in
8th grade, 7th, 8th grade,making $40 a week. Mhmm.

(02:27):
Vacuuming up cigarette ashes outof the floor, because drivers
just, you know, flick them inthe floor, and it's pretty
nasty.
But, I had $40 in 8th grade aweek adds up. And so I did that
for a while, and then Igraduated to actually wash them,
and that that's the nastiest jobin the world. Like in the

(02:47):
wintertime, I mean, we'retalking 4 hours probably for 1
truck. Mhmm. And you'd besoaking wet, mud everywhere.
So that's my beginning to theworkforce. You know? But it's
good money. I'd always wanted towork for my dad. I've been
attracted to heavy equipment,log, and all that stuff from a

(03:09):
little kid.
You know? And so that was it'smy next thing. In the summers, I
would go out and help my dad.They always had a extra piece of
equipment, a scooter orsomething, and he'd put me in
it. And, you know, that was,everybody else is goofing off
all summer, and, I was I was inthe woods working.
And really I thought that's allI would ever do. Kind of my life

(03:30):
was geared that way. And I Iactually had had planned on
going to college out of highschool. I wanted to get a ag
business major, and, you know, Iwas taking this thing on and
kinda shifted gears my senioryear and wound up going to
Diesel College in Nashville.Mhmm.
Because that's something else, Iguess, a passion. I love fixing

(03:52):
stuff, tearing stuff apart. And,so I did that. And since I
graduated, I went to work for mydad, and, I was happy. I was,
you know, 20 years old, and mydad gave me a lot of
responsibility quick.
You know? I mean, it wasn't longI started hiring people and

(04:12):
managing whatever went on andkinda give him a vacation. He
would just show up to work, youknow, and let me do all the
nitty gritty, you know. And, hebasically just

T.J. (04:22):
He was at home watching Scooby Doo.

Nick (04:24):
Oh, no. He was at work. He came to work, for the most part,
but he did, at some point, I wasprobably my goal was like by the
time I was 25 to run the wholething, and he would've hurt his
back. He was off about 6 months,and, I was probably 23 or so.
And and I just kept it going.

(04:45):
It's like it never missed abeat. And so it was kind of the
pinnacle of my life. You know? Ijust, I was married and had a
family going, and, you know,like, here I am doing my thing.
And, I surrendered the ministry.
So I might get into some of thatlater. But, I surrendered the
ministry, and so started working2 jobs and, filling in at

(05:09):
churches and doing all this andkinda began to see God had
gifted me in a lot of otherareas, not just, you know,
working the wood. Mhmm. And,eventually, went full time
ministry, and I learned realquick that full time ministry in
a small rural church is tough ona young family. So, man, I just

(05:30):
started picking up jobs andlearning to do stuff.
And, so, yeah, I fixed phones,and that was that was a
challenge too, and very and Iquit and I retired a few years
ago. I did. I cracked my iPad atchurch. Somebody knocked it off,
and then I cracked my iPad. Iput a new screen on it to the

(05:50):
day.
It was the first time I'd openedone up in probably 3 years.
Mhmm. But, so I did that for awhile. When we're in
Mississippi, one of the elders,they all drove school bus
because, you can get on schoolinsurance. And so I, well, I got

(06:11):
a CDL.
You know, I could drive a bus.And, I wound up having to go you
actually have to take anothertest to drive a bus. And, I took
the test, and, the guy, he'slike, man, you want a job? I was
like, really? I was just doingthis to fill in.
No. We need bus drivers. I didthat. And I got to be around the
kids more, and I was like, youknow what? There's gotta be some

(06:34):
way to get into school.
And so, I signed up to sub atthe school, and I'm a tell you,
I hated school. I was I was aterrible student. I'm an
outdoors guy. I love beingoutdoors. And so growing up,
like, I hated to be, you know,pinned down in a classroom.

(06:56):
And then the first day I showedup to sub, I was like, all my
grown up years, I was trying toget away from this place, and
here I am back in school. Andand God bless substitute
teachers because they don't payanything either. I mean, it was
it was basically, it was amission field for me just to get

(07:16):
around kids. I knew a lot of thekids from the community we lived
in already, but, I don't I don'tknow how most of them do. But,
usually, they would just givethe kids an assignment, and so I
just tell them what to do.
And I'm not a rule guy either. Idon't have all these, you know,
raise your hand, whatever. Imean, it's you know, it was
chill when I was there. Andbefore I knew it, like, all

(07:39):
these kids would bring theirchairs up to my desk and just
pour their heart out and talkabout the things they were doing
and shouldn't be doing. And, andI had a bigger ministry, it felt
like, going on at schoolSouthern than than anywhere.

T.J. (07:52):
Yeah.

Nick (07:53):
And I did that for a little while, but, it's some
more things changed in our life,and so I I quit doing it. But
that that was a more interestingjobs, just just because the
kids, man, are so open. I mean,they they would tell you if
they're doing something wrong, Imean, I mean, from spilling

(08:14):
their stories of getting drunkon the weekends to know, doing
other things they shouldn't beendoing. And I would just try to
counsel them, and, I was justamazed that they're so free to
tell me what they're doing. Youknow?

T.J. (08:27):
Yeah. I wonder what happens to us as we get older,
we become more secretive, more

Nick (08:33):
Yeah.

T.J. (08:33):
Protective of of who we are and and how we share that
with others.

Nick (08:40):
Yeah. That, I think when you explode on them, because
that's what that's what adultsdo. We blow up. You know? And I
would just listen to them, and Iwouldn't say a whole lot at
first, and they would just keepopening it up.
You know? And I'd finally, youknow, okay. Let's let's talk.
You know? So I did that a while.
I even I had some people at thechurch I was at that really got

(09:04):
upset I was doing it. I neverunderstood that because I we're
paying you to be the pastor, notsubbing at school. You know?
Mhmm. As a way, I'm surroundedby teenagers and all this, and
they're flocking to me.
A lot of them are coming to ourchurch on Wednesday night too. I
was like, this is ministry. Youknow? I'm getting paid $40 a day

(09:24):
to be here, and it's kind of ajoke. You know?
But, you know, what bettermission field? So I did that.
Kinda transitioned then into,mowing yards and stuff. That
worked. I didn't really like it,but I just I I was never the

(09:47):
clean-cut grass yard guy.
And so here I am trying to makeeverybody else's yard look like
that. But I did that a while. Iwashed, I had a pressure washer
from logging days, and so Ifixed it back up. And I washed
some houses and cars and, youknow, just little odd jobs, man.

(10:09):
Whatever I could find to do, Iwould do.

T.J. (10:12):
What kind of side hustles do you have going now?

Nick (10:15):
Man, I'm I'm out of the side hustle business. Alright. I
like that. That that was kind ofone of the reasons I came back
to, to home was because, achurch had offered me a job
being part time. And it waskinda like when I was full time
in ministry, I always had tohave a side job.

(10:35):
Even when I was in Mississippi,I drove drove a truck for a guy,
actually, for a little bit,pulling flatbed. And, I'm I'm
probably a workaholic. And so itwas like, he was friends with a
guy at our church, and, he'slike, you ever missed driving a
truck? And I've probably beenout of truck 7, 8 years. And I
was like, yeah.
Sometimes. And he's like, man, Igot these big, nice Kenworths.

(10:58):
He said, man, I need somebodyevery now and then to drive, an
hour down the road, pick up atrailer, and bring it back. He
said, would you be interested indoing that? I was like, oh,
yeah.
I can do that, man. Mhmm. And,next thing I knew, I was working
4 days a week. I wouldn't workon Wednesday, but Tuesday
Monday, Tuesday, Thursday,Friday, I would work for him.
And, man, he just kept gettingme further and further out and

(11:19):
further and further out, and Iwas like, dude, I I do still
have responsibilities.
And the, one of our kids, our5th kid, I think right before
he's born, I finally quit that.I was like, guys, my wife needs
a little help. You know, I'm I'mgone. I was leaving the house at
2 AM and driving 4 hours, turnaround and be back. I'll be back

(11:40):
home by lunch.
And then I was doing whatever Ido for the church the rest of
the day. And, man, I was

T.J. (11:46):
just day.

Nick (11:47):
I was at I think I did it from September to May because he
was born in May. And, I waslike, I can't keep doing this.
Yeah. But, it was fun, you know.It it gave me an opportunity to
meet other people.
And I guess all my jobs I've hadsince I've been in the ministry
are, yeah, a little bit aboutmaking some side money, but a
lot about just running intoregular people. When you're

(12:11):
pastoring a church, people,like, they they build this wall
in front of you, and it's like,you're the preacher. You know?
Yeah. And so, like, even beingin the school with the kids, I
mean, I didn't look like apreacher.
You know? I mean, I was dressed,but not you know, a tie and a
coat and all that. Right. And Idrive a truck. I wear overalls.

(12:33):
You know? And people wouldreally open up to you more. And,
like, I was building all thesedifferent relationships with
these side hustle jobs that I'mjust thinking I don't make
enough money to to pay all thebills, so I'm side hustling.
And, like, at the same time, I'mrunning into people who need to
hear about Jesus, you know, needto somebody to talk to. When I

(12:54):
drove the school bus, when Ifirst started, the person who
quit got in a fight with one ofthe students on the bus.
Mhmm. And they didn't tell methat. They just need a bus
driver. And so

T.J. (13:09):
No backstory.

Nick (13:11):
Oh, man. So I so I wound up driving that bus and, for
about a year, and it was theworst route in the district. I
mean, my second week on the job,I had a second grader, I mean,
dropping f bomb after f bomb.And, you know, just they were
into it was a mess. And, thenext summer, the guy said, hey.

(13:33):
We got a handicap route open. Hesaid, would you be interested in
driving a handicap bus? I said,man, I'll be honest. I've never
been around handicapped people,so I don't I don't know anything
about it. I'm not scared, but Ijust I don't know anything.
He said, well, you have amonitor. All you have to do is
drive. I could drive. And so, hepaid a little more. And with

(13:56):
the, with the insurance with theschool, you basically if you add
your family, it takes everythingyou make in a month to pay your
family's side, because theschool pays for yours.
And but if you miss one day, youhave to pay them money. And so

(14:16):
with the handicap, it paid alittle more. So if I had to miss
a day, like if I had a hospitalvisitation or some something
happened, with the church and Imissed it, I didn't have to pay
any extra. So it's kinda good.Yeah.
And, well, then I wound uphaving somebody who was forced
to sit right beside me, youknow, whoever my monitor was,
and they basically took care ofthe kids. And, I did more

(14:39):
counseling on that job thenbecause well, it was 2 hours in
the morning, 2 hours in theevening. You know? And so I had
somebody stuck with me. And, atfirst, it was some younger
people, and then one of an anolder lady, you know, and it was
just, you know, she would pour aheart out every day everything
that was going on, and her herlife was falling apart, you

(15:00):
know, and

T.J. (15:01):
It's 20 hours a week. I mean, you have a lot of time to
be able to get to do oneanother.

Nick (15:07):
So yeah. And and the last one I had, she wound up coming
to church, where we're at. Soit's kinda neat how God opens
those things up, you know, andYeah.

T.J. (15:17):
Yeah. Same here in my ministry, having those side
hustles, or secular work orbivocational, whatever phrase
you wanna use, all of themprobably fit to some degree or
another. It really, as aminister, really puts you out
into other people's lives. And Ihave found that people who are

(15:40):
not faith connected are morereceptive to the good news of
Jesus than those that werealready professing Christians.
There was a hunger there and itreally didn't even matter with
age.
I worked in school system andthings and and various, ages
depending on the job. It itwasn't like a h thing either. It

(16:04):
was just there were peoplehungry to know more. They had
questions about the bible. Theyhad questions about what it
meant to be a Christian.
There was always that curiositywhen people find out that you're
a minister. They kinda wannaknow they wanna know what that
role is like. Like, you know,like, the the family situations
and dynamic is different for aminister than it would be for,

(16:25):
you know, the family just acrossthe street. Like, no. We we have
our own problems.
Yeah.

Nick (16:30):
Oh, yeah.

T.J. (16:30):
I mean, it's it's no different. Yeah. I've always

Nick (16:33):
come I hate to work with shoot shoot always asked me. She
say, will you pray for me? Andand I was like, yeah. You know,
I pray for her. And, I mean,sometimes, like, we finish the
route and just stop and I pray,you know, before she got off the
boat.
And she always say, you'recloser to God than I am. And I'm
like, no. I may not really, youknow. I mean, I may talk to him
more than you do, but but, like,you know, there's no, ranking,

(16:58):
you know, that we get as pastorsor even as as a church member,
you know, that it puts us aheadof everybody else in
communicating with God. I said,God is open.
You know? You wanna talk to God,talk to God.

T.J. (17:08):
Yeah. Yeah. The same here. Don't don't go you don't have to
go through me. You know?

Nick (17:15):
I

T.J. (17:15):
don't know where that comes comes from. I don't know
if that's just kind of our our,you know, Catholicism or or just
the role that we have wherepeople think maybe, I don't
know, we're sort of a mediatoror an advocate. And I don't
mind, you know, praying onbehalf of somebody else. You
know, it's an honor, you know,to be able to stop in the middle

(17:36):
of what you're doing.Absolutely.
But, yeah, I'm with you. The theindividual who wants to talk to
God, they don't need me to talkto God.

Nick (17:49):
So, other jobs, so I we moved back here in 2017.

T.J. (17:55):
Yeah. You're back in Arkansas now.

Nick (17:57):
Back in Arkansas. For those who don't know. I've
transitioned now back from, frombeing a full time pastor to, on
the books, bivocational. Mhmm. Ifeel like I've always kinda been
bivocational, but it was alwaysministry plus the side hustle.
And and that was tiring, to behonest. And I'm not knocking any
churches we've been at, but it'sjust I got a big family, and,

(18:21):
it's it's tough. It it's just itit takes a lot of money. Mhmm.
And I'm very sensitive, whenpeople say something about
preachers who are there for themoney and all that.
I'm I'm probably always gonnadefend the pastors, which, which
you know. My grandfather was apastor, and, they he was full

(18:45):
time for a while, and theystruggled. I mean, they they
really struggled. I I know onetime, in particular, they they
he would drive. He would alwaysgo, you know, somewhere to a
church and depend on gettingpaid, you know, to buy gas, come
home on.
And somebody, didn't show up.They're supposed to pay him and,

(19:09):
you know, he was digging moneyout of the seats for a gas money
to get back home, you know. And,people always say, you know, use
the Faith Guard, you know. Andit's like gas station don't take
that. You know?
Walmart don't take Faith Guard.You know? You gotta have you
gotta have money. And I knowthat's a sensitive topic for
sure, but, it's just an honestone that I think needs to be had

(19:33):
because there's a lot ofministers who are really
struggling, and they're doingwhat God's calling to do.
They're gonna do it broke ornot.
But, so, anyhow, this church thechurch I grew up in, that's
where I'm at now, I was theretill I was 18, and I, left. But,
they said, hey. We're we'reneeding somebody part time.

(19:55):
Like, we can't afford a fulltime pastor. It's tough for
bivocational churches to getsomebody to move in, take a
church.
Right. And then go find a job.And I know because I've
interviewed at some in the past,and that was my biggest holdup.
Like, I'm gonna get here and notmake enough, and I've got a

(20:17):
couple weeks really to find ajob to go along with the church,
you know, to be flexible to allthe things that you need to be,
and that's overwhelming. So sothis deal opened up, and, we we
came back here.
And I think I gave, like, a 60day, heads up. And so I was

(20:41):
looking for a job. You know?And, best friend of mine has a
sawmill. My mom actually workedI got her a job there.
And, they had a spot open for atruck, and and it was gonna work
out good because he knew mysituation, and I kinda be
flexible. And, you know, ifsomething happened, I could take
off. And, well, in 2 monthstime, he wound up having to cut

(21:02):
back on some stuff, and so hedidn't have a job open anymore.

T.J. (21:05):
Oh, no.

Nick (21:06):
And we were getting ready to move. And so I was like, oh
my goodness. And so, you know, Ijust started looking around. And
a guy who lives down the roadfrom where I do, he said, hey.
My brother works somewhere, andthey they need somebody.
And, it was driving a truck.They, they do oversized

(21:27):
equipment all around. And, soI've done that, moving, logging
stuff. You know? I've got alittle experience.
And so I I called the guy, andhe's like, yeah. Yeah. And I
said, well, you know, I'm stillprobably couple weeks out. He's
like, that's fine. Just, youknow, let me know when you get
back.
And so, he did. He hired me,man, and, that was one of the

(21:48):
funnest jobs I've ever had. Wehaul stuff. I think the widest
thing I've hauled is 17 footwide. Anything about going down
the highway like that, man,it's, there's no room for air.
It's, you don't talk on thephone. You know, you're you're
cute in to everything going onaround you.

T.J. (22:08):
So are you white knuckling it? I mean, it it seems pretty
stressful.

Nick (22:12):
Probably probably the first trips or 2 on something
that big. You are. I mean,because, I mean, mailboxes I
mean, you can't imagine thethings on the edge of the road,
and you need a car, you know.But we haul all kind of stuff. I
ran anywhere from Oklahoma Cityto been all the way down the
gulf.

(22:32):
And it was, every day at the endof the day, you found out where
you're going the next day. Youknow? So it was always changing
and, you know, you couldn't makeplans, and if if the company
that we contracted to, if if,they did a lot of rental
equipment. And so if somebodyneeded something Friday at 5
o'clock, you know, you thinkyour day is over. You no.

(22:52):
You turn around and you you maydrive 4 hours to wherever than 4
hours back home. Oh. And so youmay get home midnight, 1
o'clock, 2 o'clock. And so, itwas fun, but it was very taxing.

T.J. (23:06):
And with you with 5 5 children. Right? Five children
in the house? 6.

Nick (23:11):
Yeah.

T.J. (23:12):
Alright. My apologies to the to the last one here. Yeah.
Six children. And how often wereyou home?

Nick (23:22):
I made it home every day. I I spent the night out a few
times, but I mean, I made ithome. Sometimes it was just to
put them to bed. Sometimes Ididn't see them. Mhmm.
Mhmm. So it it was a fun job,but it was like, it was it was
very taxing. And so, my mybuddy, the one I was originally
gonna work for, he, he hadcalled me one day and he said,

(23:45):
man, I need a mechanic. He had12 trucks and 6 pieces of
equipment. He said, I I needsomebody.
Mhmm. And, you know, I I waskinda struggle because I don't
know if you ever worked for afriend or not, because then
we're best friends in highschool. And I I might have

(24:06):
skipped that. I worked there inhigh school, 12th grade, as him
and his dad and another guy,small little sawmill. So, I went
up taking it.
You know? And, really, he hemade it worth my while, I guess.
I took that job, and it's notreally what I wanted or where I

(24:27):
wanted to be, but it put me backin town every day. I got off at
the same time pretty much everyday. So it it worked out good
for us, and I did that for about2 years, I think.
And then March of 2020, I'vebeen saving I wanted my own

(24:48):
truck. I'd had one before, andso, I was just I've been saving
my money. I got my taxes backand had enough to make a down
payment. And, I bought a truck,like, right when COVID started,
And, probably the worst time toever start a business, in all of
my lifetime, you know. And itwas like it was before everybody

(25:12):
started shutting down.
And so I'd already hadeverything bought and all that,
and no guarantees whatsoever.And, because I think I started
in April, when I finally left.But, but that's that's pretty
much that's been my job since2020, and I've done I've done
well, so, I'm not complaining.I'm I'm more flexible. I can

(25:36):
take off, do what I want when Iwell, I still have to work, but,
I mean, I can be flexible.
Mhmm. So to me, being flexibleis huge because you're not
pinned down, you know, forsomebody else. You know? And
kinda what I do now, I can I canwork whenever I need to in the

(25:56):
day, because we all have a lotof paper mills, and they're open
247, 365? So, I know I've hadsome funerals and stuff, and I I
would just park and do all that,and then I'd go back and I might
work later, something like that.

T.J. (26:12):
Well, I originally asked you this question, because of
your work ethic. You've neverbeen afraid of work. So where
does that well from? Where didyou get that? Is it born?
Is it is it beaten to us? Is itwhere is that coming from, that
work ethic? For you anyway.

Nick (26:34):
I'm gonna say it's my dad. My dad is, be 72 this year. He
still works. He he retired fromlogging in, 09, but he works for
a company that has tankers. Sohe works on he works for

(26:55):
tankers.
And, me and my dad still getsdown in the concrete, you know,
on his knees working. He is,with that shadow of doubt, the
toughest man I've ever met. Andhe was my hero growing up, you
know, and I just I watched him.May even I think from the 5th
grade on every summer, I went towork with my dad. And getting up

(27:16):
4:30 in the morning, you know,in 5th grade all summer long.
And, it's just always watchedhim, you know, and that's that's
kind of my inspiration, I guess.Hannah one time, we used to show
pigs when I was in high school.And I come in from being out,
you know, goofing around withsome friends and went to eat

(27:37):
supper. And, my dad asked me, hesaid, he said, you fed your
animals yet? I said, no, sir.
And he, my dad was the old rodeocowboy. He said he said, cowboy
always feeds his horse where heeats. I'm a tell you, man. I I
set my fork down. I went outsideto have animals, and that always
stuck with me.

(27:59):
You know. Ain't my horse, but, Igot a wife and 6 kids, you know.
And so for me, I always makesure they're provided before I
am Mhmm. Because, they're what'simportant to me. And we're not
frivolous.
You know? I don't, and we barelygo out to eat. But but I make

(28:22):
sure they're provided for, andthey have what they need. And
that, that's part of the drive.You know?
It's just, feel like that'sbeing a man. You know? That's
how I was raised in the end. So,I hope when I'm 72, I'm not
still working. But but, I hopeor as Dave Ramsey say, live like

(28:44):
nobody else, you can live likenobody else.

T.J. (28:47):
I don't know. With it being instilled, there's an
enjoyment to work.

Nick (28:52):
Oh, I I love working.

T.J. (28:53):
And and to to to say from I'm not speaking for you, but
for me to say I'm completelywalking away at whatever age, I
I can do it. Maybe briefly.

Nick (29:06):
And

T.J. (29:06):
then then after about a week, I'm like, I I gotta go do
something. I don't know whatthat something is, but I gotta
go do it.

Nick (29:13):
Yeah. You know the, we had a snowstorm, about every 3
years, seems like. But this lastyear, you're basically stuck in
the house. I mean, you can't goanywhere. I mean, out in the
country, I mean, the roads aresolid.
You you can barely drive in a 4wheel drive. And, you know, I'm
I'm, like, on pins and needles,just running around and trying

(29:34):
to find something to do. Youknow? It's I don't know. So,
yeah, I probably won't ever quitaltogether, but, I did, the I'm
trying to think.
I was out of logging for, wequit 9. So, got back in 2020, I

(29:56):
guess. So 11 years. I enjoyrunning equipment. And like I
said, I've been out there on itsince I was in 5th grade, and,
to me, it's not work.
I enjoy the process, and I'veran everything. I used to my dad
started me out on a chainsaw,and you wanna talk about tough.

(30:20):
You, you don't realize you sweatas much as you can sweat because
we'd start at 7, and by 8o'clock, there's not a dry
thread on you. I mean, in thewintertime too, it's just, it's
tough. I know I learned I didn'twanna be on that forever, and
he, he let me start moving up.
And even though, like, he ran, Imean, it was his job. He was the

(30:40):
boss. He never gave me anyspecial favors. I mean, I
started at the bottom, and Ilearned to run whatever is good
or better than whoever else wasout there before I got a a shot.
And, I was always a quick study.
You know, I would watch somebodyelse run it, and I would ask
questions, why they do this, whythey do that. So so, yeah, doing

(31:02):
that stuff, it just it's fun tome. You know? You know, and I I
work a lot of hours every day,but it's, it's enjoyment, you
know. Mhmm.
You Easter and the cutter and,hope I don't get you in trouble.
I know a lot of people likecutting trees, but, like you can
come up to a stand of woods and,it's just like a garden or

(31:25):
anything else, you know. Youprune the weeds and all that
and, my dad taught me that. Imean, you you look at it and you
look at the canopies and thetrees and you you build it to
look how it needs to look sothat the rest of what's there
can grow and and be better. And,my wife teasing all the time
because we we drive down theroad somewhere, and I'll see

(31:45):
something somebody else cut, andI'll start critiquing it, you
know.
I don't know why they did this.I don't know why they did that.
You know, because it's, youknow, like I said, like a
garden. You want your garden tolook right, All the weeds out.
You want things spaced out whereyou can grow.
And so, I don't know. I'm just Iguess, I'm weird that way. But
like I I enjoy that, you know?Mhmm. And church is the same

(32:06):
way.
I enjoy seeing people learn.It's the same thing for me. When
you see somebody get thatmoment, you know, like, yes, you
know, like, scoring a touchdown.You know, you you just wanna
jump up and shout and somebodygot it. You know?

T.J. (32:21):
Nick, you've you've grown up in a household where, the
Christian faith, churchattendance, discipleship was
extremely important. Speak moreto that environment that you
grew up in.

Nick (32:42):
Yes. So, mom's a PK. Preacher's kids. Yeah.
Preacher's kids, they only knowabout going to church.
You know, we were in churchwhenever the doors were open.
Also come from a family thatlikes to talk, like debate. You
know? And so and I'm probablythe quietest one in my family.

(33:08):
But we would talk about bibleand stuff at home and, you know,
kinda debate might be a strongword, but discuss it a lot.
You know? I I always remember mymom and dad, my brother. Yeah.

(33:28):
They're always smarter than Iwas on that stuff. And, you
know, as being the younger one,you know, looking up to them and
listening and, you know, justtrying to learn and trying to
remember stuff.
And, go back to the start, I wasa bad student. And which if
you're a bad student in schooland you don't learn in school,
it's tough to learn the Bibletoo. And, I was kinda always

(33:52):
envious that they could rememberso much stuff, and I couldn't. I
just I couldn't remember stuff.I remember one year we were at
we're at the lake on a youthtrip, and we played bible
trivia.
And been in church, I mean, likeI said, all my life. You know, I
can't remember a time we weren'tin church. You know, even if we
went out of town, we were inchurch somewhere. We played

(34:14):
bible trivia, and I sucked. I II couldn't remember anything,
you know.
And they're ask us questions.And like, how can I be a
Christian? I mean, I'm saved atthis point, You know, I'm
active. I'm doing I can'tremember anything, you know. And
it bothered me.
And so I just and I just reallywanted to learn more about not

(34:35):
just learn it, but, like,remember it. You know? If if
somebody sparks up aconversation, I wanna be able to
be a part of it and havesomething to add to this. My
family's talking about, youknow, whatever in the Bible. I
wanna be able to be an activepart of this discussion.
Right. You know? And I couldn'tat that time. And, so, yeah, I
just I don't know, man. I justalways wanted to be more

(34:57):
knowledgeable of it, and we did.
And and I realize now that notevery family talks about the
Bible. A lot of times you leavechurch, Bible shut, it's not
mentioned. And so, ours was,man. We we discussed stuff, And
I was I was the runt trying topick up where everybody else

(35:18):
was, but it it took me a littlewhile. But, I've done the same
with my kids.
You know, we discuss stuff inthe bible and, they might
embarrass me if you start aquestion, but I hope, you know,
I hope they would be the same.It's center of our life, you
know, of all we do. For me, it'snot even before I enter the

(35:43):
ministry, church is not, youknow, one day a week. It's it's
it is more than an institutionof church. It's it's more about,
you know, us being in God'suniverse and part of his plan
and, being ready.
We talked about all these jobsI've had. Nobody gives you a

(36:03):
heads up for when somebody asksyou something. I mean, you gotta
know it. You know? Mhmm.
And, yeah, you're a preacher.You should know it. Like, if
you're just a church member or atender or whatever, you know,
and somebody asks you something,you should know it. You know,
don't be let me go ask mypreacher. You know?
God wants us to be able to, youknow, be ready with a response,

(36:26):
you know, for whatever. And so,yeah, just growing up talking
about it.

T.J. (36:33):
In my, in my ministry, I think there is a level of
humility too. I mean, I don'tknow everything even I actually
know less Yeah. As I get older.But for those that I was serving
with, you know, if they didn'tknow when they were asked a
theological question or just alife question, just I was like,

(36:56):
well, be honest and just go,well, I don't know. Let's let's
go find out together, whetherit's in the scriptures or, you
know, whatever it is.
And to me, that says a lot asopposed to the other extreme is
giving an answer to

Nick (37:12):
But you don't know.

T.J. (37:14):
Smart or intelligent or or that sort of thing. I I think
the the honesty goes a lotfurther and then then you're
discovering it together. That'swhat I've always encouraged
people to do. Don't don't justgive an answer. If you don't
know, just take that as anopportunity where the 2 of you
can look at the scripturestogether.

Nick (37:35):
Yeah. I I've I've seen some people who just pop off
first thing hits their head, andI was like, you don't know that.
You just came up with that.

T.J. (37:43):
I know.

Nick (37:44):
There's there's nothing to back that up anywhere in the
bible. Yeah. I had a friend ofmine who's a pastor, and he said
he had a old lady one time andand she would argue with him
about something in the bible,and that's what he said he'd
always do. So let's meet at thechurch. We'll go.
We'll find it. Surge till wefind. And and that's awesome.
Yeah. It's a big book.

(38:05):
You know? Yeah. And there's Ijust went back through this
year, a 90 day bible plan. Andthe second time I've done 90
day, which is, like, you startcarving time in your life to to
do that. It's like an hour a dayof reading.

T.J. (38:23):
Yeah. I was about to ask you. That sounds pretty intense.

Nick (38:26):
Yeah. But when you go out that fast, it's like, I hadn't
been in there. And there aresome books like I haven't been
in a while, you know. It's like,I forgot about that, you know.
But yeah.
I don't know, man. Just beingbeing a student, you know, and
learning more about it, beingable to discuss it. Even my

(38:52):
family today, right, we stillyou know, it it it's not odd for
us to get into biblicaldiscussions, you know, at
Thanksgiving or Christmas orwhatever.

T.J. (39:04):
There's, an advantage to always being steeped in
scriptures and and theologicaldiscussions. But as days go by,
I encounter and I think you doas well, more and more who are
unfamiliar with the biblicaltext. And, you know, maybe have

(39:25):
never read the Bible or had astudy partner or just have a,
you know, kind of a a passingknowledge of the New and the Old
Testament. Nick, how do you howdo you interact with those
individuals who aren't as faralong in the biblical knowledge
and even in discipleship?Because it's pretty easy to just

(39:49):
run right over that person andand flex our intellectual
muscles or, our know how.

Nick (39:58):
For me, which is a 2 part, because I think you take people
in the church different fromthose outside the church. Mhmm.
The people outside the church, Ithink you have to find where
where their knowledge base ison, some of them have 0 on the
Bible. Mhmm. And so, I mean,it's almost like, you go back to

(40:21):
the simplest stories.
You know, you think about theones you learned when you were a
kid in Sunday school. You know,you focus on those. You focus on
things that that are easy tounderstand. My kids are almost
like that. You know, they'rethey always they wanna read the
hardest book they can find inthe Bible.

(40:42):
No. No. No. No. No.
You know? Find something findsomething you can understand.
Get from a to b. I don't try tohit anything with that which I
would call tough theologicalquestions. You know?
I just stay away from that. Ifif somebody doesn't know the

(41:05):
Lord, that's number 1. Even evenall the, we'll just call them
social issues we discussed. I'mnot debating social issues with
somebody who's not a believer.Mhmm.
It's a waste of time. Theirsalvation is number 1. And I've

(41:27):
been asked a lot of, you know,those kind of questions from
people, and I just try to steerclear. You know? Because for me,
you know, always get the, is ita sin to gamble?
And well, you know, are yousaved? No. I don't even go to
church. So who cares what it isthen, you know. I mean, you

(41:50):
know, stay away from that kindof stuff.
You know, if it's somebodythat's in the church that's been
in the church a while, it'skinda the same principle. You
gotta find out where they're atbecause I don't think longevity
in the church means much. I usedto. I used to think if somebody
had been in church 20, 30 years,I would put them in a certain
academic level of the Bible.That's not really true.

(42:13):
So you kinda find out wherethey're at. Go back to my,
growing up. I was a terriblestudent. I had ADD. I didn't
know what it was.
I I like to keep things simple,and so I carry that on the
ministry. Mhmm. I'll throw out aI hate to say a big word because

(42:38):
they're they're just, I wouldn'treally call them big words, but,
maybe a a churchy word every nowand then. I'll throw one out
just to see if I could seeresponses. And when you say
somebody They're going

T.J. (42:52):
for a reaction.

Nick (42:53):
When you say the eyebrow raise up, you know, it's like,
okay, they didn't know what thatwas. You know, I got some of
them that turned their head alittle sideways, and it's like,
okay, so go back to that. Youknow, go back, explain that.
Sometimes my wife, well, she'lltell me after, she said, you
know, they have no idea what youjust said. I'm like, really?
But everybody knew this. Soshe's like, no. And so, like, if

(43:16):
I get that, so I'll go back intoit and more explanation on it.
But, like, if it's like liftingweights. You know?
If you're not straining a muscleevery now and then, you're not
learning. So so as a pastor, Ithink you always gotta push to
the limit, but you always you'vegot people who this is their
first Sunday they came. Mhmm.They haven't been to church in

(43:39):
15 years. So you got that inthere too.
And, if I'm being honest, yougot people who've been there 20
years who nod off every week.They're probably at the same
level. So so you gotta balanceall that because, I'm a short
preacher. I'm 20, 25 minute guy.Yeah.

(44:01):
I go preach the whole Bible inone Sunday. You know? You gotta
keep it simple and to wherepeople who are ADD like me don't
get lost. Yeah. And, you know,you just repeat yourself a lot.
You know, Over the same thing.You you hear the same thing over
and over enough, you begin tolearn it. And, so so that's my

(44:23):
approach, just kinda find outwhere people are and going with
that.

T.J. (44:27):
Do you think, parenting influences in how you do
ministry and your pastoral care,your sermon preparation, you
know, in in terms of theteaching element and and in
sharing concepts and helpingpeople in their discipleship.

(44:51):
There's something unique abouthaving a small child around, you
know. Not necessarily thatyou're testing, but I think how
we communicate with an 8 yearold or maybe even a 10 year old
could just be the baseline interms of how we share what the

(45:12):
Christian faith means, who Jesusis. And then later, you can
start building and and sharethose big complicated words that
never get used outside of thechurch or an academic setting.

Nick (45:28):
Yeah. For sure. My my kids are I got 6 kids. So I'm if I
can just do this year'sbirthdays because it's the only
way I can remember. So we're,I'll be 19 to 9 on my kids.
So I've got a wide range there.And so they're kind of a

(45:52):
sounding board for me, I guess.You know, if they're picking up
and learning, everybody elseshould be too, you know,
especially the older ones. Yeah.Kids give you a a lesson in
patience.
Mhmm. I I think we all probablystruggle with that. Just just

(46:16):
learning stuff. You know? Youknow, it was Paul that wrote,
you know, about, people stilldrinking milk, need to be on
meat.
You know? That's our job aspastors. You know? We're trying
to get people to the meat, butthere's always gonna be somebody
sipping milk because hopefully,because there's hopefully always
somebody new coming in. I guessyeah.

(46:39):
It's like me. You know, I justgot through training a kid to
drive, and now I got anotherone. You know, like, I never get
out of this, this trainingstage. You know? I'm stuck here.

T.J. (46:49):
Yeah. You're always teaching. Yeah. Always.

Nick (46:53):
It's like, my kids are 2 years apart, every one of them.
So I got I got 2 drivers, 2licensed drivers should I said,
and one with a permit. And itit's like you're on pins and
needles, you know, because Imean, it's tough teaching
somebody how to drive. And,like, that's that's that's a big

(47:15):
deal, but, like, spiritualthings are the same way. You
know?
I mean, it's tough to teachpeople scripture because I think
when the Bible is so big and somany interpretations from so
many different people that areout there. And so, you know,
okay, what do I think? What do Ifeel? That's the hard part. I

(47:38):
think we, as pastors, sometimeswe just wanna shove it down
their throat, and that's not howeverybody learns.
You know? I I think having kidshelps train us in that because,
I mean, I'm reminded one of mykids picks up faster than the
other one. Yeah. And, as far ascompassion, you mentioned that,

(48:03):
I'm horrible at that. I'm, mywife says I'm more compassionate
at church than I'm at home.
I grew up my dad came from atough family. You know, it's

(48:25):
it's kinda black and white. Youknow what I'm saying? I mean,
obeying was black and white. Youeither obey or you don't.
I mean, so so it's kind ofgruff, you know. And I've I
guess I've carried some of thatalong. My wife is so much better
at being, the compassionateministry role than I am. She's

(48:47):
and and bivocational stuff too,but, I mean, she checks on
people. She's the I mean, Ishould make her associate
pastor, you know, and just letthat day heart roll.
You know? She's the minister ofof compassion and caring. You
know? I don't know. I'm I'm moretough, you know, black and
white, get with it.

(49:07):
And I approach my kids the sameway. And I wish I was more
compassionate in ministry, butit's, it's tough. You know? It's
it's tough to learn that.Definitely a spiritual gift.
Definitely. Yeah. You

T.J. (49:27):
know, we haven't talked about your calling in the
ministry. We've kind of worked,you know, in different areas of
your life. So share with me Imean, you had a career, multiple
careers, and why ministry?

Nick (49:48):
Okay. Our church, every year as a kid, you know, we do
children's Sunday.

T.J. (49:57):
And Are you a kid at this time or are you an adult?

Nick (50:00):
Am a kid. And, I don't remember the kids ever
preaching, but for some reason,if you're, if your grandparent
is a preacher, people alwayssay, you know to me and my
brother both would always say,oh, y'all gonna be preachers
like your grandpa. And Iresented that, growing up,
because I didn't wanna be apreacher.

T.J. (50:17):
I'm not surprised. And,

Nick (50:20):
I think my brother's the same way. He didn't either. So,
anyhow, so they got him one oneson 1 year to to bring the
message. And, you know what thatnaturally means. You know, the
next year, I'm gonna have to doAnd, I did I preached my first
sermon in, I think I was 16.

(50:44):
It's about 5 minutes long. It'srecorded on a cassette
somewhere. Man, that was tough.At that point in life, I was
still pretty shy. I was prettyquiet guy.
You know? And so to get in frontof people was really
overwhelming.

T.J. (51:01):
So did you use note cards, piece of paper?

Nick (51:05):
I think I had a few notes. Anyhow, I still remember the
sermon. I remember it was aboutit was longer in my head than it
was for now. And and I still getmade fun of for it from people
who were there, because I gotthrough. I said, that's all I
got.
And, that was that was theinvitation right there. That's
all I got. I got through that,and maybe a year later, a bunch

(51:31):
of men from my church went toPromise Keepers. And the pastor
at the time, he asked me what Ifill in. And, for some reason, I
said yes.
And maybe it's redemption from a5 minute sermon. And, so, I I
can't honestly remember anythingabout that. I'm sure it's on

(51:51):
cassette somewhere too, becausebecause we recorded everything
back then. But, I was gonnastart doing this.

T.J. (51:58):
Was a little bit longer?

Nick (51:59):
It was a little bit longer. It might have been,
like, 7 minutes, maybe. And Ihad no preparation, and my
grandpa was a minister. I don'tknow why I didn't go to his
house and say, okay. Help melearn.
You know? But,

T.J. (52:11):
Oh, you did this solo. Okay.

Nick (52:13):
Oh, yeah.

T.J. (52:13):
It's I'm glad you clarified. I I would assume that
No. No. I didn't you sought hisadvice.

Nick (52:17):
No. I don't ask help from many people. I I'm the sink or
swim guy. You know, throw me inthe deep water and figure it
out.

T.J. (52:25):
Okay.

Nick (52:27):
I I should clarify. When I worked for my dad, it was the
same way. He put me on a cuttingmachine and said, here, good
luck. I mean, that's that's beenmy life. It's figured out on
your own.
So, yeah, somewhere in thatpoint, I really I started
feeling something inside, and itwas like, I feel maybe this is
what I'm supposed to do. Youknow, why did why did brother
Garland ask me to preach? Youknow? I mean, he could've found

(52:50):
anybody. You know?
Much better than me. And I beganto struggle with it. All
through, senior in high school,I struggled. And I just started
praying. I was like, God, you'regonna have to give me a sign
because, I've seen my grandpa'slife, and, and they struggled.
All all his life, theystruggled. And he intentionally
struggled. He was, he was aelectrician. He used to make

(53:13):
real good money. You know?
I mean, successful in theelectrical field. And he left,
you know, to become a preacher.And so I just I don't know. I
struggle with that. And, and Iwent back to, you know, since I
was 4th or 5th year birthday.

(53:36):
My mom took me out to the woodsto see my dad for birthday. I
remember riding a machine theyhad. And, from that moment,
that's all I ever wanna do wasbe a logger. And so up to this
point in my life, I've hadeverything I've thought about.
So now this ministry thingstarts creeping in.
And, when I talked to my momabout it, I was like, I'm I'm
struggling. You know? And, Istarted praying. I was like,

(53:59):
guys, if this is what you wantfrom me, I'm gonna need to,
like, put my name on abillboard. I wanna drive by and
see Nick on a billboard or oryes to ministry.
I don't I don't care. Somethingthat I know, this is what it is.
Yeah. And, and I

T.J. (54:12):
That's a big demand. That's a big demand, Donkopf.

Nick (54:15):
I mean, hey, Gideon Gideon got some big summon, you know.
You know, I don't know why Icould get one. And nothing. I
mean nothing. And, I just I waslike, you know, if God wanted
this for me, he would make itmore clear.
I wouldn't be struggling. So,then I finally started back

(54:38):
somewhere and went on with life.Moved to Nashville, Tennessee. I
went to Diesel College for ayear, and I went to work for my
dad, and it was like, this isthis is me. It's my life.
This is everything. I gotmarried and trying to get

(55:02):
involved in church. You know? Imean, as far as doing something,
me and my wife kinda helped withthe youth a little bit. How is
that this burning thing backjust way back deep inside that,
like, I have purpose?
I have no idea what it is, butI've got this purpose. And, I I

(55:25):
didn't struggle with ministry. II struggled with knowing what
I'm supposed to do. I feel likeGod had gifted me in certain
areas. At that point, in myearly twenties, I mean, I was
definitely a student of theBible.
You know, I mean, I I cued in onwhatever the preacher said. I
mean, if he said something Ididn't think was right, I would

(55:46):
I would bring it to him. I'dhave it written on paper. You
know? Check this out.
Check this out. Run thesereferences. You know?

T.J. (55:52):
Oh, man. I'm gonna start doing that to you.

Nick (55:55):
Yeah. I've had that, actually. But, I don't know,
man. I just I just struggled,but it it wasn't it was never
going back to ministry really.And I talked to my wife about
it, and, you know, every now andthen, somebody you know, do you
think this?
I was like, no. I I prayed Goddid not give me a sign. This is

(56:17):
not me. You know? And, so, backto my grandpa, man.
He was my hero. I I've never I'mjust gonna say it's a different
relationship. My dad, they weretight. Man, right till I was a

(56:38):
teenager, he was he was, youknow, Superman to me. Tough, All
all the things.
You know? Macho man, my dad was.You know? I mean, he cut trees
for a living. You know?
Like, you just you look at mydad, you see this is a
lumberjack, you know, and that'swhat I wanted to be. But for my
grandpa, man, he he was, he waslike the other side of me. He

(57:00):
could fix anything. Man, I'vetore up so many toys, like,
electronical stuff. I take tohis house, sit at his desk, and,
he would pull out these trays.
And, I don't know if you cansee. This is this is my
grandpa's desk. He would pullout these trays, man, and he's
he said it here, and we wouldjust start taking it apart. It

(57:21):
didn't matter what it was. Youknow, he would just start
dissecting this thing.
Wow. And, and these things gotholes all that. We drilled
holes, you know, on something. Idon't know. But, I would spend
hours over at his house.
My my my minister grandfather.Not talking about the bible.
Fixing stuff because that'sthat's what we did. And, he was,

(57:44):
he was my hero in that. Youknow?
It's just, I just remember lotsof nights going over there, and,
I'd knock on the door. And, Ijust knocked and walked in, and
my grandma would always say,he's back in his office. You
know? And We go sit back there,and, he's probably one of the
reasons I went to diesel school,you know, because just being

(58:05):
around him and fixing stuff, andthat's what I like. And, we
just, like I said, I wasprobably closer to him than any
other man ever in my life.
And, man, he could do like Isaid, he was, air conditioning
guy and all the stuff. He wouldhelp me on any of that kind of
stuff. You know, he was alwayshere working. I don't know. I

(58:30):
just the hours that I spent withhim is just unreal.
Anyhow, he he came to churchwith us. He had retired, and, he
came to the church I was at. Idon't even know why they came,
on a Sunday night. And, I'llnever forget him going down the
altar and praying. He can barelywalk.

(58:50):
He messed his hip up. I juststruggled to get down there. And
he prayed, and, he went back,sat down. He died, Tuesday
night. It's kinda crazy, man.
It, I'd had a truck broke down,and it was in the shop. And we'd

(59:13):
sent my mom to Texarkana, whichis about an hour and 45 minutes
from here to get the parts. Planwas, she was gonna get back
around midnight. I was gonna getup, fix the truck, and be ready
to go the next morning. And so,I did everything.
I just got back in bed, andphone rang, and he had died. He

(59:36):
went outside. He couldn'tbreathe. And, he'd went outside.
He had a, cutting torch outside.
He has oxygen. You know? And hewas just going trying to get
some oxygen out of there becausehe couldn't breathe. He can't
even breathe that oxygen, but,know, I guess in the mental
state he was in, I just it'skinda comical looking back now,
just the guy he was. He knew heneeded air, and there was air in
there.
So Wow. But, he, man, hisfuneral, it it ate me up. He

(01:00:10):
taught me so much, but notenough. I must have had so much
to learn. And I spoke at hisfuneral.
And the next Sunday, got ourchurch in Sunday school. He

(01:00:32):
said, as far as I'm concerned,he said you preached his funeral
just from what you said. And Istruggled, as in April. And

(01:00:52):
almost like within a week of himdying, man, those feelings of
ministry came back. It's like Ikept hearing, pick up the
mantle.
Pick up the mantle. And, like, Idon't need to pick up the
mantle. My brother picked up themantle. He's a minister. My

(01:01:13):
aunt, who, his daughter is aminister.
Or she was in the process. Shewas going to pause at the time.
I am a law lover. I'm a churchmember. I'm a believer.
I'm a student of the word, but Iam not a preacher. I'm shy. I'm
quiet. I'm not shy. I'm justquiet.

(01:01:34):
I don't like to talk a lot. Workin the woods, I'm always by
myself. I mean, I get themachine in the morning, and I
don't talk to anybody till I getout into the day. Mhmm. And so
it began with this pick up themantle to, like, me arguing.
And I'm like, god, you have noidea who you're talking to.
Like, this is not me. I don'thave these skills. I I can't do

(01:01:58):
it. I barely made it throughhigh school.
You know? The reason I went todiesel college instead of a 4
year college is because I hateschool. I hate all this stuff,
And it was just like a dailyargument. The at the time, I was
running a loader and, justloading trucks. And, I mean, I'm

(01:02:20):
I'm here by myself all dayarguing with somebody I can't
see.
And, it was a great time in mylife. I, I was listening to, 2

(01:02:41):
sermons before I even got towork every morning, on a radio
station I listened to, and 2 atlunch every day. So I'm
listening 4 sermons a day. Imean, I was spiritually, I was
growing just, just listening towhat I was preaching all the
time. But the pick up the mantlething, I was just, no.

(01:03:05):
I'm not you know, I'll I'llteach Sunday school. I'll I'll
do anything. You know? And, Ijust tell my wife. We would
start having these conversationsabout it, and she was always
encouraging, you know, whateverI felt.
And there was a old guy who wentto church with us, and it's

(01:03:34):
kinda funny. All guys are goodtruck drivers. And so I had this
one guy, who was probably 70,And he is having some kidney
problems, so he's not due todialysis. He couldn't work
Tuesday Thursday. And so I hadthis this old guy in our church,
who was retired, but he he stillwould drive part time for

(01:03:56):
people.
And so I say, hey. You know, wedrive 2 days a week. And he
could barely walk, barely getaround. I'd had to throw his
straps for him and all this.Contankers, old man.
But, I mean, he was

T.J. (01:04:08):
But a good driver.

Nick (01:04:09):
Yeah. He was a good driver. He he showed up. He's
there for daylight every day.And the other guy, he was the
same way.
I mean, that guy would be there,you know, early. And so I had
these 2 old guys that shared thesame truck. You know? Anyhow, so
on Tuesday Thursday, the guy,and he was always giving me a
hard time about something. Hewas just he he was contagious.

(01:04:33):
But he told me one day just overthe radio. I mean, you know, we
got CDs and all that stuff. Andhe said, I don't know what
you're dealing with, but youneed to get over it. He said,
whatever it is, you need to dealwith it and get over it. Well,
what is this crazy old mantalking about?

(01:04:56):
And now I got pick up the mantlestuck in my head, and I got, you
need to deal with it. Get overit Stuck in my head. And so this
is this is running around Augustprobably. And, so I went and
talked to our pastor, and I toldhim where I was at. And he said,

(01:05:20):
I can see it on your face everySunday.
I'm like, I don't know how yousee it on my face, because I'm
not seeing it. But

T.J. (01:05:29):
You're still waiting for the billboard. Yeah.

Nick (01:05:31):
The billboard. And I'm like, I'm that's what I'm
arguing. I'm like, I I made anew guy give me the billboard
and, you know, I'll do it. Andit never happened. So, it was
coming up board meeting time,and and he was like, do you
wanna go visit with Camille inministry?
And I was like, no. I don't. No.I I don't.

T.J. (01:05:51):
Because you knew what that meant.

Nick (01:05:52):
I knew what that meant. You know? And so I waited till
after they had met. And, I justI didn't wanna make a change in
my life. I mean, I was, I was 26at at that point.
I had every I was running mydad's job on my own. I mean, I

(01:06:13):
hired, I fired. I mean,everything we did, I set up when
we set up in a set, I set it up.I I went with the foresters
wherever, you know, we weremoving. I mean, I did
everything.
My dad, he just ran the piece ofequipment he ran, and he he just
turned it over to me. You do it.You know? You know, I didn't pay
the bills or any of that. But asfar as on the job, I mean, I was

(01:06:33):
I was where I wanted to be.
You know? All I ever dreamed of.

T.J. (01:06:36):
Day to day operations was your responsibility.

Nick (01:06:39):
My responsibility. I'm 26. I'm, you know, in charge of guys
who were, you know, 50 plus.They treated me like a leader.
You know, me and my dad had somespars for some years when I
first started out there.
And, you know, he finally justsaid, you know, he knew I knew
what I was talking about. And soI've studied this stuff since I

(01:07:01):
was a little kid, you know. Ijust don't wanna make a change,
you know. I was fine where I wasat. And I was making good money,
you know, pretty much hadeverything I wanted.
We had our our first kid. Stillgetting used to being a parent.

(01:07:23):
I knew because I've been aroundit. I knew what, you know,
beginning administering them. Soit's before Presbyterian met we
we made in September, but, Ifinally told pastor, I said, I
think I'm ready.
And, man, you know that feelingin your gut, like, the only way

(01:07:45):
I'm gonna get past this is getit out. Like, that's where I
was. And so, I mean, I startedsinging the first verse, and I
just went down front. And, Ithink they stopped the song for
us even first thing. And

T.J. (01:07:58):
Both feet in then.

Nick (01:08:00):
I said, I'm sure in the ministry and everybody's like,
that time, you know. And I wasprobably the only one shocked.
But, I don't know, man. I wasjust I was scared to death. And
I can't tell my wife because Iknew I was serving on a
committee then.
And so I I mean, I've beenaround. I've been going to

(01:08:20):
presbytery. We skipped thissomewhere, but, I was an elder
before I got married. So I'vebeen going to Presbyterian. I
knew all everything at work.
And so, I took the plunge. Ikept on my wife. I said, this a
long process. It takes peopleyears to get through with this.

(01:08:42):
You know?
And so nothing's gonna change.That's what I kept telling her.
Nothing's gonna change in ourlife. You know?

T.J. (01:08:47):
Were you trying to convince were you trying to
convince her or you?

Nick (01:08:50):
Both, probably. But I was like, nothing's gonna change.
You know? Is this is the wayit's gonna be. It take years.
I met with committee. Well, letme get I gotta go for I'm not
preaching. We have a pastor. Hepreaches every Sunday, you know,
like, maybe and he was gonna begone on Wednesday night, and
somebody called long enough ifI'd fill in in October. So I

(01:09:10):
mean, I'm like a month straightin the ministry, and I'm like, I
don't know how to do that.
And I'm like, it's justWednesday night. You know? I was
like, okay. You know? So I Iscratched down some notes.
It's it's on a little steno pad,you know. Yay big. Some notes.

(01:09:36):
And it's from James. Anyhow, sothat wasn't too bad.
I made it through it, you know.It was it was halfway decent if
I'm being honest. I was shocked.I was probably shocked more than
anybody else. It's longer than 5minutes.
So so maybe, you know, maybe theyears gave me a little bit. But
I was like, that's no big deal.You know, he's back next week.

(01:09:58):
No. No thing.
Back to normal. And somebody Iknow was friends or something
with a Presbyterian USA Church,out of Tates Bluff. And they'd
have a pastor. They havesomebody, from the other church

(01:10:19):
they sent in, but on 4th Sunday,they didn't have anybody. And I
said, would you come on 4thSunday?
And, they'd serve him for us. Iwas like, I don't know. I mean,
I'm still new to this. Right?And, I don't know.
I said yes for some reason. Itcame out. I didn't really know

(01:10:40):
what I was doing. I showed upthere. They want me to lead the
music.
That was like, I did not sign upfor this. You know, they sing
with a different book than wedo. I didn't know half the
songs. They only had an organplayer, and all he played was
the bass notes. And and they dida lot of, liturgy, which, I

(01:11:01):
where I was going to church, wedidn't do liturgy at all.
And I kinda got used to that,and I was like, who's gonna read
all this liturgy? And they'relike, you are. I was like, oh,
okay. I can get to this. And so,man, it started.
So every 4th Sunday, I'd go downthere, and, I had to brush up,

(01:11:23):
find a suit I could wear, youknow, because I I knew that, you
know, you should look at leastlook like a preacher if you're
gonna be praying the word. And,we started going down there.
That went too bad. I kindafigured things out, and, nobody
would pray out loud there. So,and they had, like, 4 or 5
prayers throughout the servicethat they wrote the bulletin up,
just handed it to me.
You know? And so, you know, I Ifigured it out, kinda on my own.

(01:11:51):
And and then, we had anotherchurch in Emerson, Arkansas,
which used to be a, what do youcall them? The split church.
They shared with Methodist.

T.J. (01:12:08):
Oh, a union church.

Nick (01:12:09):
Union. Yeah.

T.J. (01:12:10):
Yes.

Nick (01:12:10):
So first and third was Cumberland, second and fourth
was Methodist. Alright. And sothe guy actually who was, at the
church I'm at now was doing 1stand third, and they were
leaving. And so he asked me whatI fill in, you know, because

(01:12:32):
he's leaving. So I was like, oh,okay.
You know? They were an hour fromus, and their service started at
8 o'clock. So here I am, wife,young baby. And so 1st and
third, we drive an hour south.And 4th, we drive about an hour,

(01:12:53):
west to the southern.
And so, I mean, I'm 3 or 4months in. We started that in
December. So I'm still a newbie.You know? And, I don't have a
lot of tools to assist in youknow?
Other than my bible, you know,for research or anything like

(01:13:14):
that. Mhmm. I barely hadInternet at that time. You know?
So so I had to look anything up.
I mean, you just pretty muchread the scripture and, you
know, here's my sermon. Like, Ijust I couldn't study other
than, you know, the text.

T.J. (01:13:26):
Yeah.

Nick (01:13:26):
And so, you know, somebody had bought me some, maybe a
commentary or something to lookat. And, so by March, the pastor
at our church, left. And theelder and he's supposed to be,
you know, guiding me along thisprocess that I just started. So

(01:13:48):
he left. I think his last Sundaywas in February.
So, the elders church asked mewould I fill in on Sunday
morning. And my aunt, who's alsoshe was in the pause program.
She was gonna do Sunday night.And, it's like, okay. You know?

(01:14:11):
So in March, I started doingthat on Sunday morning, every
Sunday morning. And also inMarch, I took my first pause
class. Doctor Campbell camedown, to the church I was
attending and did a weekendcourse. I haven't even went
before the, presbytery yet, soI'm not even a candidate yet.

T.J. (01:14:32):
Okay.

Nick (01:14:35):
Yeah. This is me jumping in head first. You know? So I I
took the and there's gonna beright in my hometown. Why not
take it?
You know? And so so I took it,and it might have been in
February, but it was before I Iwent for the committee I mean,
the Presbyterian, March. And Ihad met with the committee, and,

(01:14:56):
they agreed to let me go toPaws. I was I was running my
dad's business. You know, it'sjust, I wouldn't finna up and
quit and go to seminary becauseI'd had to go on to finish
college, because all I had wasdiesel tech school, you know.
Mhmm. So by March, I'm preachingevery Sunday morning at 11

(01:15:17):
o'clock at our church. Plus 1stand third, I'm driving an hour
south at 8 o'clock service atthe church, and then 4 Sunday
going to, the PCUSA church.That's too fast for any new
person.

T.J. (01:15:36):
Yeah. I was about to

Nick (01:15:37):
say recommend it.

T.J. (01:15:38):
Yeah. So you kept, the other two commitments on. And
within a matter of 6 to 8months, you're preaching at 3
different churches.

Nick (01:15:47):
Yeah.

T.J. (01:15:48):
From September to, what, like, April, May?

Nick (01:15:53):
Yeah. Yes. We start we started, there in March doing
that, and I did that all the wayup until November. Mhmm. They
hired a pastor in November.
Okay. So yeah, man. I mean, itit just it me telling her this
is a slow go, like, it got fastquick. Yeah.

T.J. (01:16:20):
I was imagining working. I was imagining what those
conversations were like. Shepulled me over to the side and
said, you lied to me. Yeah.

Nick (01:16:28):
I actually said this was slow. So, and at the same time,
I'm a full time employee from mydad in the woods, plus we had,
we were running 4 trucks then,and I was full time mechanic on
Saturday taking care ofmaintenance on 4 trucks. I was
hitting 80 plus hours a week, onthe secular side plus filling in

(01:16:51):
at 3 churches.

T.J. (01:16:52):
Mhmm.

Nick (01:16:54):
I was exhausted, which and also I had a new baby that
didn't sleep much. But man, Idon't know. God provided the
strength. I don't know. I keep Imean, I work hard.
I mean, that's, I guess I'm notwide open. I feel like I'm not
doing anything. So, yeah, theyhired somebody in November. And
so I was like, let's go slowdown now. I'm back to I'm back

(01:17:19):
to these other churches.
And it, it slowed down for abit. We're in 2,000 oh, we're in
2007, so I guess I missed this.In, July no. June. In June, in
the middle of that, we had oursecond son, just to add to other

(01:17:44):
things.
This is good stuff. And so afterhe was born, we decided we
couldn't do the Emerson oneanymore. It was just, we were
having to leave 6:45, 2 littlebitty babies. So, I tell them, I
just can't do this anymore. And,so it was just it was just

(01:18:06):
tough.
You know, so by November, thechurch we're at, they hired
somebody. Back to so now we'reback to just one church on
before Sunday.

T.J. (01:18:18):
And starting your school. How did that go? How did you
balance program alternatestudies and work

Nick (01:18:25):
and preaching? I took one, one block the first time. It was
only 3 classes. I took off workand

T.J. (01:18:34):
Which is a lot. Three classes is a lot. Yeah.

Nick (01:18:37):
It was a lot. And so I'm 27. I haven't done any kind of,
we'll just say, educationalstuff. You know? Haven't written
any papers or anything like thatin a long time.
It was a real learning curve toget back to doing that. Mhmm. A
lot of typing. I hadn't typedsince I was in 11th grade. I I

(01:18:59):
feel like I did pretty good.
It was different because it wassomething I enjoyed. I enjoyed
learning Bible stuff.

T.J. (01:19:11):
You were a little bit older too.

Nick (01:19:12):
I was a little bit older, you know. A little maturity
comes to that. I was theyoungest person at PAWS by far,
which didn't bother me becauseeverybody I worked with was over
50. So

T.J. (01:19:23):
Yeah.

Nick (01:19:23):
I just felt at home. You know, I didn't realize that I'm
a a, you know, 27 year old. Ididn't feel like that because I
didn't feel like I had work.Everybody at work treated me
like I was, you know, I was aleader. I mean, because I was
their boss.
You know? Mhmm. So it didn'tbother me. But, you know,
looking back, you know, I was Iwas their kid, you know? Yeah.

(01:19:46):
But,

T.J. (01:19:49):
but you and I are getting closer to, the age of those
students at that particulartime.

Nick (01:19:54):
Oh, yeah. Yeah. No doubt. So I did that. Then in, in
December, another church, atWalkerville, had asked me to
come down, and just preach,right before Christmas.
And so, you know, I only had onechurch on 4th Sunday, so it was

(01:20:14):
no big deal now. So I went downthere, and they were looking for
somebody, and and, we prayedwith them. They were looking for
a pastor. You know? And I don'tknow.
It just turned into somethingthere. So they were like, we
need somebody. You know, it'sjust Sunday morning.

T.J. (01:20:36):
Okay. Yeah. I was about to ask you if you commuted. Oh, so
I I'm probably jumping ahead alittle bit, Nick. But at some
point, you finished youreducation, and then you you
moved.
You moved for ministryopportunity.

Nick (01:20:52):
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're we're way we're way down
the line there. So so I went toWalkerville.
I started there, every Sundaymorning. And it's an hour from
here too, and I stoppedeverything else. So, it turned
into just just walkerville. Wehad quit going to the church
where my wife's home church. Wequit going there.
Mhmm. And we went towalkerville. And we went there

(01:21:14):
for a time, and they werewanting to do stuff. And
they're, you know, closest townis 20 miles from there, College
town, all that, they're they'reway out in the country. And
everybody goes to town.
You know? It's just those ruralchurches are just struggling to
stay alive. I say they're atwhere they're at. They're not

(01:21:40):
they're not gonna grow. They'rejust they're there till who's
there is gone.
And we in the CP church, we havea lot of those. I think our our
churches were built in the ruralcommunities by far, and those
are the churches that arestruggling the most. And those
are the churches in 20 yearswon't be. But, we went down
there for 9 months. Andsomewhere in there, we decided

(01:22:02):
we start doing a Sunday nightbible study, because I was in
pause.
We were learning. You know? Andyou you know how you get in
school, you talk about thesethings. We need to put them into
practice. You know?

T.J. (01:22:12):
Right. Right.

Nick (01:22:13):
I was terrified of a bible study. Preaching was okay.
Nobody's talking back. Open thefloor for questions. I don't
know if I'm ready for that yet.

T.J. (01:22:21):
Right.

Nick (01:22:22):
You know, back to what we talked about earlier, you know,
people start asking stuff. Idon't know. I can answer that,
you know. Well, you're the guywith the coat and the tie, you
know. Yeah.
I felt like I had to knoweverything from the beginning,
and I know I didn't. You know? Iknew I was struggling, but we
started doing that. And I tooksome of my pause classes, some

(01:22:44):
of the stuff we're studying, andjust built some Bible studies
around it. You know?
And it kinda helped me workingon the assignments and, whatever
literature it was. You know? Ijust used that and built
something out of it. Mhmm. Andso it worked out pretty good.
We did that for 9 months. Thepastor who had been hired at our
home church, let's just say itdidn't work out. And they

(01:23:11):
offered me the job, full time.This is, 2008, November, I
believe, is when I startedthere. I don't know if you
remember back 2,008, what wasgoing on in the country.
But, let's just say the timberindustry was terrible. The

(01:23:35):
housing crisis that hit, millsand stuff were, they couldn't
sell lumber. Therefore, theydidn't need lumber. We were a
high capacity job that we ran.We we delivered 60 to 80 loads a
week of wood, and our job wasbuilt on that.

(01:23:57):
And, we were getting put onquotas like 25, 30 loads a week.
And so it was it was tough. Wehad laid some people off. Matter
of fact, we had laid almosteverybody off. Me and my dad ran
everything in the woods and thenhad one truck driver.

(01:24:19):
And we had parked the rest ofstuff. Kinda trying to wait it
out, you know. We went back to,my dad again, tough old bird.
He, he went back to, run achainsaw, at 60 years old. You
know?
He was he was cutting them downwith a machine and then getting

(01:24:40):
out and topping everything.Cutting the limbs, tops off, all
that. I was skinning andloading. And so we were, you
know, 2 man show.

T.J. (01:24:49):
Wow.

Nick (01:24:50):
And, we did that till, till February. And he just he
said I had enough. I'm done. I'mdone. And, I took the job at the
church being by vocational.
I said, yeah. I'm still workingfor my dad. We're it's tough
right now. I'm not leaving him.You know?

(01:25:12):
I I love my dad, man. We we weretight. We had some strained
relationship through the years,you know, but we were tight.
And, my dad was my best friend.You know?
And, I said I'm not I'm notleaving him. You know? And, so
in February, he he said, we'redone. I'm through. Tired of
this.
And so we we shut the job down,sold everything we could sell,

(01:25:35):
and, I think we didn't wind upletting a few things go back. We
just kind of worked with somepeople and said, you know, we
can't we can't make it. And itwas tough, and, it cut out a big
part of my my income. And, sothen it was like, what do you

(01:25:57):
gotta do now? And so I I went tothe church, and I said, hey.
Look. You know, I told them Iwas going on with dad. Quit. And
they had hired had a full timepastor before, so I was like,
you know, I can I can go fulltime if that's what y'all want?
And so they said, yeah.
Yeah. We'd love that. And sothat was the beginning, 2009,
full time ministry. Something Inever really thought I'd be in.
I kinda always figured I'd be bivocational.

(01:26:20):
Were you

T.J. (01:26:22):
were you ordained by then or

Nick (01:26:23):
still in school? I'm still I'm still in pause. And I was
the one one block a year. Thatwas all I could do. It was so 3
classes a year.
That's why I kept telling mywife. I said, you know, it's 33
classes. Like, it'll take me 10years to do this. And, so that
was February. So come upsummertime, the committee

(01:26:44):
somebody had donated some moneyto the communal ministry or left
some money.
And they would pay for, a fullsummer of pause. And so, all
nine classes, which was 15 days,I was like, I'd be dumb not to
take all these. You know? And soI did, and, I was wide open

(01:27:07):
after that. I mean, I was takinganything I could find.
If there was a weekend coursesomewhere, I was gone. I just
anything I could get, I wouldtake. I I end up finishing pause
in three and a half years.

T.J. (01:27:23):
Wow.

Nick (01:27:24):
They told me, toward the end, they're like, you don't
have any secular education. AndI was like, no. I don't. I got a
I'm a diesel tech, you know, ifthat counts for anything. And
they're like, no.
You're get with doctor Campbell.So I got with doctor Campbell.
He was the, pause person then.And he said, send me some

(01:27:49):
transcripts. So I sent them, andhe looked at them, life
experience, all these things.
He said, so I'm gonna give youcredit for a lot of this, you
know, and run a business, do allthis stuff. And he walked out, I
don't remember now, 6 or 9something classes, college
classes I had to take. And so,we got a little community
college in the neighborhood, soI went out there. And I'm 10

(01:28:12):
years older than all thesepeople out here. And, I had to
go back to my high school.

T.J. (01:28:16):
That's funny. It's you reversed it. So you're Yeah. One
of the youngest in the programof alternate studies, and then
going back to the communitycollege, then you're the old
one.

Nick (01:28:26):
Yeah. It was like it was tough, you know. And, I got my
high school transcripts. It waskinda embarrassing, you know,
because like I said, I was aterrible student. I had decent
grades, but a lot of it was justI played the system.
You know? I mean, I just didwhat I had to. And, so I went
out to college and enrolled outthere. And, yeah, I'm I'm so

(01:28:46):
thankful for the church I wasat. They paid for all my college
classes.
They paid for my books. Theywere very gracious to me and,
gave me time to study. So Istarted in I took all online
classes even though it wasclosed. I was like, I'm not I'm
not coming here to sit in classlike young kids. You know?

(01:29:09):
But, I I I started at home, man.It was weird because I've worked
so much all my life, and, here Iam, 2 kids. I'm I'm home. We
didn't have a church office, sowe set up a room in our house.
This is my office, and, man, Iget up every day, sleep in.
I mean, I I would sleep in till,like, 6, 6:30, and I had to

(01:29:31):
start reading books and writingpapers, you know, and, I had to
drive, man. I can't explain it.I just had to drive. I wanna get
done. I'm ready to be done.
I know everybody that's acandidate has it at some point,
and they're just like, I wannafinish. Mhmm.

T.J. (01:29:46):
And and can't do it fast enough.

Nick (01:29:48):
Right. Can't do it fast enough. And, doctor Campbell
told me one time and we disagreeon some stuff, but I I like
doctor Campbell. He was a verygood mentor through the process.
But he told me one time that thethe journey the Israelites made
from Egypt to the promised landwas a short journey.
You look on the map, and youthink, man, I walked that in a

(01:30:10):
month, you know, at a slow pace.He said, but in 40 years, he
said, look at all the experiencethey learned on the journey. And
he said, you need to experiencethe journey. And I'll never
forget that. One of the wisestthings he ever left me with was
experience the journey.
And I've told Kenneth that nowwho are at same place that I

(01:30:32):
was, and nobody wants to hearthat, you know. And I wanna get
done. I'm like, I know I werewhere I was where you were. I
remember that. And I'm on thecommittee.
I'm on the ministry now. Mhmm.Anyhow, so I I began doing that,
you know, down to 3 services.Only 1 on Sunday morning, which
was a relief. Uh-huh.

(01:30:52):
Sunday night, Wednesday night.At some point in that time
period, my brother, he waspastor of church here in town,
had left, and, I did Sundaynight there. My aunt did Sunday
morning, but, he was gone. I didSunday night there. So it was 1
Sunday morning, 2 Sunday nights.
You know? So it was there. Igot, I mean, I got a lot of

(01:31:15):
experience fast. I I wouldn'trecommend it to anybody, but I
wouldn't trade anything for itat the same time.

T.J. (01:31:26):
Yeah. This is why I started the conversation with
what kind of jobs you had andand about your work ethic. And I
didn't even know thiseducational I didn't know your
educational path.

Nick (01:31:39):
Yeah. So I

T.J. (01:31:41):
just Yeah.

Nick (01:31:41):
And I was too young. I didn't know that thing. They're
like, nobody your age goes topause. You know? And my pastor,
he was an advocate for me to goto pause, but, it is a path.
I mean, we have it down, and Ithink it's a good one. There's a
lot of misconception about thePaws program. Actually, when I
was I was an elder, the firsttime I went to GA, I was on the

(01:32:03):
committee that dealt with that.They were trying to raise the
price of us to be equal to thatin seminary, and I didn't know
anything about it then. Youknow?
And and I remember doctorCampbell coming in that
committee and saying, it's notthe same thing. It's a
difference. Totally different.You know, you can't compare the
2, and you can. It's different.
The one of the great thingsabout pause, we would meet at
the gazebo there at Bethel, andwe'd have prayer meeting every

(01:32:25):
morning at 6 o'clock. I missthat more than anything because
now there's nobody at 6 o'clockto meet with, to pray with, The,
you know, you're on your own.Yeah. Yeah. It is a great
experience.
Also, in that time, I'm workingon my school. My wife has
struggled since she was ateenager with anorexia. And, she

(01:32:55):
just got to a point. A lot ofstress. We were at her home
church, which was tough frombeing the kid that, you know,
everybody watch grow up to nowyou're the preacher's wife.
It was tough on her. A lot ofthe stresses. Having kids,
tough. We are a 3rd, was bornafter we were at that church.

(01:33:23):
And, I don't know.
Like, she never recovered fromthat. She just she just
stressed. She dealt with a lotof depression. Anyhow, so that
next February, I called, focusedon the family. Just looking for

(01:33:44):
help.
Preachers don't have any help.Right? I mean, you don't have a
pastor anymore. I'm still ayeah. I'm still a candidate at
this point.
So I am the pastor. You know, Idon't have anybody. There was
not another ordained minister inthe Camden area at the time. So
I called. I was like, hey.
My wife, she's struggling, and,I need help. And they

(01:34:08):
recommended, I don't know if Ican say it or not, but, Ramuda
Ranch, out in, Arizona. And, shewas £90, I think. I flew to I
flew her to Arizona. Shewouldn't go by herself.
So hopped on a plane in LittleRock. Flew her to Arizona,

(01:34:31):
dropped her off with the peoplethere, turned around, got a
plane, flew back. I did on aSaturday. So I flew all day
long, and I got back, preachedSunday morning. Looking back, I
probably should've took someleave or something.
Mhmm. But now I'm full timeministry. This is my only source
of income, and it's nowhere nearwhat I was making before. And, I

(01:34:56):
just kinda looked at it. I can'tafford to stop.
You know? I can't afford timeoff. Right. So I just kept
plugging away. Back to that notcompassionate guy, I put my
black and white hat on, and itsays, you're the minister.
It's your job to be there forthese people. You deal with your

(01:35:18):
own stuff on your own time, andthat's that's what I did.
Anyhow, so she was there, for 6weeks. They saved her life. No
doubt.
I took care of 3 kids. Theyoungest was 6 months old. I
took care of 3 of them, did mypause work, did my secular

(01:35:42):
schoolwork, all right there. Ibecame mom and dad. I'd never
lifted a finger to clean thehouse or do much of anything.
I'd always worked. And I mean,when I say worked, I worked 12,
14 hour days every day,sometimes 16. My wife took care
of the house. She hadn't workedsince we had our first kid and

(01:36:05):
kinda like that is my role, yourrole. And so I never done
anything in the house, really.
And, now I'm doing it all. Youknow? Folding laundry, which I
hated. Cooking. I I could cook.
I always been able to do stufflike that, but I might take care
of everything. To cook the kids.I think a lot of people thought

(01:36:25):
I couldn't do it. The churchwould they would they wanna feed
us. So somebody would bring us ameal every every night, you
know.
Yeah. Stuff my kids wouldn'teat, you know. It was to feed me
and I said to cook for them, youknow. I remember somebody
brought us a whole hen, youknow, and I I cooked it, and I
sat on the table, and my 2oldest kids are like, what is

(01:36:47):
that? I was like, it's chicken.
And they're like, it didn't looklike chicken to us. Yeah. They
wouldn't eat it, you know. Mymom would always kinda cater to
them, you know, whatever theylike and stuff. And I'm just
like, eat or starve, you know.
And I cried for a while. Ifinally fixed them something.
But, anyhow, it was that was atough time of our life. I did at

(01:37:13):
that time. Shout out to PatPickett.
She, she gave me an extension.Only extension I ever asked for
were one of my POS classes. AndI told her where I was at, and I
was like, I just I can't. Youknow, it's crazy because I was
working 80 hours a week anddoing this, and now I'm, you
know, here, but I'm I'm takingcare of these kids, you know,

(01:37:33):
and trying to do the school andall this. And, I just I I
couldn't get it all together.
You know? And I didn't visitanybody, do anything that time.
Had 3 kids, had nobody to watchthem. Right. If it had happened
at a different time before wequit logging, you know, my mom
worked from home.
She could've watched them. Butnow she's working a job. You

(01:37:53):
know? My mother-in-law worked.So, I mean, I pretty much just
stayed there.
If I went anywhere, all 3 kidswent with me. And, I mean, you
know, in or 6 month old, 2 yearold, 4 year old, they went with
me, which was interesting. But,I actually got licensed at

(01:38:14):
Presbytery, during that time. Imade it to Presbytery to the
meeting and realized I forgot topack any of their clothes,
because I've never done that. Mywife, she did everything.
And, so I went to Walmart afterthe meeting and I had to buy
them all clothes for the rest ofthe time, you know. And I mean,
I'm in the meeting and watch,you know, these 3 little kids

(01:38:35):
and I don't know. We made itsomehow. You know? Mhmm.
And,

T.J. (01:38:41):
and And your wife.

Nick (01:38:43):
Yeah. And so she, she came back in April, and, it was an
adjustment. I mean, she had tolearn, you know, how to cope
with stuff, all that stuff. Itold you at first, I'm open, so
I'm a be open. That that hurtour ministry.

(01:39:06):
I think people thought she wasweak. It it changed the
relationship at the church, withher. She she needed a lot of
time to heal. She didn't havetime to be pastor's wife, be all
that to anybody. I just I feellike a lot of stress happened

(01:39:29):
through that.
And there's a lot of things thatI was trying to do different. I
didn't wanna be the previouspastor that had been there 12
years. I felt like a lot ofpeople wanted me to be that
person, and I wasn't. I'm my ownperson. You know?
Mhmm. And so sometime afterthat, that kinda started

(01:39:51):
deteriorating. But I finishedpause right after that, the year
that she had got done. I got, myordination service at that
church, was great. I felt likeI'm at the pinnacle, you know.
I mean, all these things thatfinally have no school left to
do. Right. And, it was reallyjust feeling like I was getting

(01:40:14):
started. And within the nextyear, it just crumbled. And so
we were there two and a halfyears.
And, you know, I look back now,a lot of things I'd have done
different. You're so full ofideas when you're new to

(01:40:35):
ministry. All the books youread, the stuff you discuss. I
think everybody comes out ofschool, you know, want to save
the world. You realize thechurch really just wants
somebody to bring a sermon onSunday and visit the shut in.
And, you know, I I wanna changethe world. You know? Mhmm. So

(01:41:00):
this would be, like, May of onine. We just had our 4th kid in
January, and, I resigned.
There he's let me go.

T.J. (01:41:18):
Did you have anything lined up?

Nick (01:41:20):
Had nothing. I I had I had done some interviews, at some
places. I wanted to go to onechurch. I really wanted to go.
And I was kinda cocky at the atthat thought point.
I had a lot of I've beenpatching back and saying, you

(01:41:41):
know, hey, you're a really goodpreacher. You know? I don't know
if you ever had somebodybragging on you, you know, when
you think, you know, I'm thebest preacher there he is. You
know? You you just you're you'renot that the spot in your your
ministry where you just, and Iwas I was on fire, man.
I I look back to some of thesermons. I was a better preacher

(01:42:01):
then than I am now as far assermon. You know? I just I was
on fire. I was everything out ofthe box.
Somebody hit on Ed Young theother day. I watched Ed Young,
Fellowship Church out of Dallas.I watched him a lot. I don't
agree with everything he does orsays, but, man, he's just really

(01:42:23):
creative. And I think to reachpeople outside, we've got to and
I'm not saying we compromise onwhat we believe.
I don't compromise. But we'vegotta get creative about how we
speak to people and how we reachthem and where we go. Paul said
I become all things to all menthat I might reach some. Mhmm.

(01:42:44):
And I don't think we're as achurch, I don't think we're
trying to reach some.
The only efforts I see to makeare we, you know, we decide, you
know, believe what you wannabelieve, come in, however you
wanna be, stay that way. And I'magainst that.

T.J. (01:42:57):
Yeah. Well, there's a difference between the delivery
of the message and the contentof the message.

Nick (01:43:03):
Right. Right. And so so I was man, I was outside. I mean,
I'm talking, just outside thebox. My sermon, too bad we
weren't videoing anything backthen.
But, I mean, I was just gettingoutside the box and doing all
kinds of crazy things.

T.J. (01:43:19):
Give give me a great example.

Nick (01:43:22):
Oh, okay. So so I'll give you 2. 1 okay. My my grandpa,
again, my my he's my mentor. Inever seen my grandpa enter the
pulpit without a suit and tie.
Mhmm. And that meant a lot tome, and that's I patterned that.
I didn't go anywhere. I wasn'twearing a coat and tie. And, I

(01:43:44):
didn't feel right.
If I was behind the pulpit, Ifelt like I was supposed to have
a coat and tie. And so I hadread a book. It's on my shelf. I
can't remember the name of it.Yeah.
I was talking about being a fan,and I love sports. And so, the
sermon, best I remember, thishas been a long time ago. The

(01:44:04):
best I remember, it was kind oflike, you know, when we go to a
game, how we respond to ourteam. You know? What do you do
when you go to a game?
You wear the team gear, the teamlogo, the hat, the shirt, the
jersey, whatever. You you dressthe part. You go. You interact.
And so that's what it was.
So I was like, everybody, wearyour team stuff, whatever it is.

(01:44:24):
So I did, man. I'm MiamiDolphins fan. Been away for a
long time. Favorite number is13.
I'm Dan Marino all the way. Youknow? I mean, that's that's my
thing. So I wore my my jersey,you know. My brother bought me
this, Chris Chambers jersey, whowas a receiver for the Dolphins.
So it's got my name on the backof it. 84. I still got my

(01:44:46):
closet. I wore it, you know. Ipreached and I was like, this is
so outside of me.
But I got people involved andpeople who are wearing this
stuff. My wife's dad ridesbikes. So, you know, he had a he
had a biker jersey on from oneof the races he does, you know.
Other people, whatever sportthey were into, they were it was
like, I'm getting peopleinvolved and, like, it's
something different than theevery Sunday thing. And I

(01:45:08):
remember and I I just came upwith that on my own, but it was
it came from watching some EdYoung stuff about getting people
involved in what was going on.
It changed anybody's life?Probably not. Did it get people
talking? Definitely. You know?
Definitely got people talking. Iwore jeans and a jersey,

(01:45:29):
mountable pen. It got me outsideof my comfort zone. One Sunday,
I brought a treadmill in and arecliner, and so I said I moved
the pulpit out of the way. I hadtreadmill on one side, recliner
on the other, and, you know, Ihad the little mic on the air,
you know, where I can runaround.
And I was in a sermon on beinglazy, how we would've come to
church and sit in a recliner.This is Christian, recliner

(01:45:53):
Christian. Alright. Or then we,like, we jump up and, you know,
we got these new people in andthey're on the treadmill. And
how long are you on thetreadmill till you get tired and
you wanna go sit down orrecliner?
You know, so I was back. Like, Iwas doing junk like this. I
mean, like, Saturday was like,what all can I bring into the
search to do something? Mycontent was the same. I'm always
the same.

(01:46:13):
You know, I'm very conservativeas far as, you know, approach
the bible. I don't really likelabels because that always puts
you into a something, but but ifyou wanna label it, that's where
a traditionalist, I guess, maybeis a better word. I don't know
if I like that because I'm therevivalist of the 18/10 movie.
That's all I'm but, anyway, weall get these labels, but they

(01:46:36):
all mean different things todifferent people. But,

T.J. (01:46:38):
Right. Right. Right.

Nick (01:46:39):
I'm 1810 Cumberland. Okay?

T.J. (01:46:41):
Alright. How about I just call you Nick?

Nick (01:46:44):
Yeah. That's good. And so

T.J. (01:46:47):
You use these visual effects, I mean, especially with
the couch and the, treadmill. Idon't know how much larger you
can get with an actual, physicalmodel to

Nick (01:47:01):
I've got ideas, but they're just they're huge if
they need a budget. You know? Wewe went to c 3, which is Ed
Young's thing. And, they talkedabout a lot of that stuff that
goes in there. And I have, donethey have a creative team of
people at their church theybring in.
They're they're part of theteam. I did this on the
Mississippi. Brought people inthere on the creative team, and

(01:47:25):
people take him out of context.He would bring people in that
have different outlooks in thechurch. Maybe you're not an
elder or deacon or whatever.
How do you see things? You startseeing from their perspective,
and it helps you as a pastor.Okay. I need to focus on this.
Okay?
I need to look at this. Peopleare curious about this topic,

(01:47:48):
and it helps you build on that.And, we did that when I was in
Mississippi. I created a littleteam of people, some young, some
old, some new, some been inchurch a while. I built I built
4 or 5 sermon series out of it.
I was just taking notes. Theywere talking, you know, and,
different stuff. I was jottingdown stuff. And the only reason

(01:48:11):
I quit was because some peopleare like, well, why why why
didn't you choose me? Well, I'mnot on that.
You know? What are y'all doing?Because I didn't tell anybody
really what I was doing. BecauseI just I'm looking for input.
Right.

T.J. (01:48:23):
I can preach on

Nick (01:48:25):
I can preach on any topic in the Bible. You just open it
up, find a topic. I can build asermon on it. Mhmm. But to me, I
wanna know where people are.
What do people need? Because ifthey're not learning, I'm just
talking. Mhmm. And I'm not a bigtalker. I want to see people

(01:48:45):
learn.
I wanna see that transition intheir life. And Paul talked
about being transformed, and Idon't think we talk about that
enough in the church aboutpeople being transformed. We we
come as we are, but we wannastay there. I wanna see somebody
transform their life. And sothat that was my goal.

(01:49:05):
Ed Young said this at the end ofhis conference, because there
were some things there that Idid not agree with. You know,
just you know, some things canget out of hand and, with some
of the speakers. But he drew apicture on a big marker board,
of a fish, And he said, eatfish, throw the bones away. And

(01:49:26):
I I went from there to that. Thethings that I enjoyed, I kept.
Things I'd agree with, I leftthem there. You know? That's the
only time we ever went to C3,and I'd love I always love to go
back, but, it just it don'twork. Especially being a
bivocational, it don't work.But, anyhow, it was cool.

(01:49:51):
I'm I'm gonna get off, where wewere at on accident. But, we
went to that conference, andit's all pastors and music
leaders, stuff like that. Mhmm.And they got these big doors in
their church, like, 4 big giantdoors within the sanctuary, and
they lock it up until so manyminutes before church starts.
And, we were, like, looking atthe gift shop, and they had all

(01:50:13):
these things set up.
You know? And, they had a DJspinning records in there in the
lobby. Very not CP. It was coolto me. I mean, you know, it's
just so non churchy, you know.
It was like, oh, this is neat.Right. They opened the doors and
you would have thought, it was amassive concert. People were

(01:50:36):
racing to the front pew. AndI'm, like, you know, here we
are, and I was, like, man, we'restuck in the back.
And I went back to church thenext week, and I said something
about, you know, man, it'd becool to be in a church and
everybody rushed to have thefront pew, you know. If we just
lock the doors and wait tillquarter till and then open them

(01:50:58):
up and everybody rushed to lookat the first seat, that's never
gonna happen. But we're gonnasit where we said last week and
the 20 years prior. But, it wasa neat experience to see that
creativity. And so I try to pulla lot of that to my ministry
there in the beginning.
Mhmm. And I did get some of thatthrown in my face as we left

(01:51:21):
that first church, which crushedme. And, I kinda shifted back to
just being, you know, writingthe sermon. Forget the extra
stuff. Because it takes a lot,man, to put yourself out there,
to be risky.
And I don't mean risky in a badway, but just to go outside the
norm.

T.J. (01:51:41):
Right. I It takes planning as well. I mean, to move a sofa,
to move a treadmill, movefurniture within the church,
which probably was the mostoffensive thing.

Nick (01:51:53):
I moved the pulpit, over to the side, and I quit. At some
point there, I quit using thepulpit. Mhmm. I stood. I usually
took a little bar stool outthere, set my bible on.
Mhmm. I take notes when I study,and I I can't read them. I mean,

(01:52:16):
I I don't I don't even tryreally. There's something I
wanna remember. I highlight mystuff, But, it's just, I think
taking notes helps me mentallybookmark it, but I'm pretty much
free to go.
I don't I don't need notes. Itake them every Sunday. I rarely

(01:52:36):
ever look at anything. I Ialmost become part of the
message. Like, I'm just aninstrument in there.
Yeah. I don't know if you play,instrument or not. Remember when
I first started playing theguitar, you know, I'd be
playing, and, like, you gottalook down there where your your

(01:52:57):
fingers are at, you know, toknow if I'm in the right spot.
And if you play a while, I mean,I know that's g. I don't even
have to look.
My fingers know where it's g. Iknow where to change. I know I
can slide up and down. I knowwhere I'm at. And preaching is
the same way for me.
I study the text as hard as Ican. I take some notes. I
mentally bookmark, and then, Isomehow know where I'm at. My

(01:53:20):
ADD every night and I have acool story I was gonna tell, and
I forgot it. I I may go adifferent direction than I
thought I would.
When I first started preaching,I would preach the same sermon
at one of those 2 churches. I'dpreach the same sermon, same
text, same everything. It'd be 2different sermons. And my wife
would be the only one that knewthe difference. She was like,

(01:53:41):
that didn't even sound the same,you know.

T.J. (01:53:44):
Now do you do you work on it mentally throughout the week,
you know, over the years?Because you've had some jobs
where you're driving, so there'sthat alone time. Being out in
the woods, that's alone time.Even behind a saw, you know, I
mean, you can get into a grooveto where you're there in in the

(01:54:05):
body and you're doing thoseactivities, but you can still
kind of communicate with God,develop a sermon, think about
what you're gonna say. Do youoperate that way?
Or or Yeah. Is your life socompartmentalized?

Nick (01:54:19):
Okay. So I've changed through the years just because
my life is kind of ebbed andflowed. Yeah. So at one point, I
would always wanna have mysermon text on Monday. Mhmm.
And and I shoot from the hip,one shot. And I can I don't like

(01:54:43):
to? I can prepare multiplesermons at one time, but, I
don't operate like that verygood. It just it gets confusing
in my head because everything isin my head. If I could
manuscript, I could probably dothat, and then, you know,

(01:55:03):
compartment out.
But I I can't the way I do it.Not not effectively. I can get a
sermon, but I don't think it'svery good. And maybe that's just
my critique of myself. But, so Iwould get my my sermon text and
then just ponder it all week,till I have time to sit down

(01:55:23):
and, you know, kinda jot somethoughts down.
Now I don't. Which now I try todo more series now or, like,
whatever you wanna call it,verse by verse. So I got you
know, I know where I'm atSunday. I know what's next in
the story. So that's in my head.

(01:55:46):
Because, like, I'm in the Exodusright now. I know the next thing
is gonna happen. Yeah. I'vealready been given thought to
that. Oh,

T.J. (01:55:52):
yeah. That would certainly help kind of in terms of
planning of where you are shortterm Yeah. And long term,
actually. Yeah.

Nick (01:56:00):
When I was full time, I was totally different. So full
time, Monday morning, I get up,I come to my desk, You know,
have a moment with God, and Iflip the pages. You know? I'm
just digging. And it's alwaysmysterious to me how I find

(01:56:22):
where I'm at and stop diggingand start, you know, planning.
I I can't answer. I don't know.My wife always she'll come to me
and she'll say, hey. I heardsomething today. You should do a
sermon in this, and she'll bringit to me.
And I look at it, and like, itdon't feel right, and I'll go.
And, she didn't wanna doanymore. She's like, you're not

(01:56:43):
gonna preach anything I ever AndI was like, I can't tell you. It
just has to feel right. Like,there's just that feeling inside
and it's just getting involvedand say, oh, yeah, this is it.
Being bivocational, though, it'sso much easier just to go verse
by verse. A lot of my prep timeis finding where to be. You

(01:57:07):
know? When I'm planning, this isthe text, man, I can whoop one
out fast. I just, it just startscoming.
You know? Thoughts start coming.That creativity starts flowing.
Ideas start going. I'll jot someof those ideas down.
It it just I don't know. Itcomes together. But it's never

(01:57:30):
together until it comes outbecause I have no idea what it's
gonna be like, till it startsgoing. I tell you earlier, I'm
20, 25 minute guy. Now I hit ahot streak on 1, and, I went 45
minutes on a sermon not too longago.
I've never preached that long. Iknow Bible stay that long, but,
like, I I just intentionally, Ido not do a sermon that long.

(01:57:50):
But it was just I I just felthot, and and it was just
rolling. But did you did

T.J. (01:57:57):
you feel the sense of time, though? Did you know it
was 45 minutes?

Nick (01:58:01):
I I thought it might have been

T.J. (01:58:04):
30. Long. Little bit longer. Yeah.

Nick (01:58:07):
But, I don't look at a watch. I look at the clock. I
just I feel when it starts. Ifeel when it closes. Mhmm.
I asked doctor Campbell onetime, his probably his second
great wisdom that I kept fromhim. I asked him, I said, doctor
Campbell, how long should asermon be? And he said, it
should seem like 20 minutes. Sohe said it can be shorter, but

(01:58:30):
it better feel like 20, youknow. Mhmm.
Or it can be longer, but it's tofeel like 20. And, so that's my
goal. I'm I I shoot for 20minutes and, it's usually 25,
sometimes 30. Depends on thetopic. Some stuff's easier to
preach on than others.
The church against my YouTube, II tell them, I said, y'all might
wanna put it on speed and a halfon that one. It's 45 minute

(01:58:50):
long. Paul's in the militarybathroom break or whatever. But,
I don't know. It just

T.J. (01:58:59):
it comes out. Let's shift gears. We were talking off,
Mike, about the CumberlandPresbyterian Church and you,
this spring, have been nominatedfor moderator of the General
Assembly of the CumberlandPresbyterian Church. So how how

(01:59:20):
did that happen? What made yousay yes and not no?

Nick (01:59:26):
Well, yeah. I did say no.

T.J. (01:59:27):
That sounds very negative. I didn't necessarily mean it
that way. No.

Nick (01:59:30):
No. No. I'll tell you a back story and then I'll answer
your question. So when I was inwhen I was going through Paws, I
guess when I started full time,one of the things the first
church I was at said, hey. We'llpay your GA expenses.
I was like, every year? Andthey're like, yeah. I was like,

(01:59:53):
that's cool. I'm gonna go then.So I went, and I can't remember
the year.
Somebody here doesn't know. Iwas a youth delegate to GA at
Chattanooga 97, 98, somewhere inthere. I can't remember. I tried
to look it up, when I did mylittle bio for the magazine, and
I, for some reason, I couldn'tfind the years where we were.

(02:00:17):
Mhmm.
First experience at GA. I'd wentto Senate before, with my mom
when I was in 5th grade. Becauseit's in Little Rock and they had
Toys R Us there, and she told methat she'd buy my birthday
present. It was on my birthday.She bought me a birthday
present.
I could pick it out, you know,but I had ascended.

T.J. (02:00:33):
Alright. I appreciate the backstory because I'm like, why
would you remember attendingsynod in the 5th grade? Now I
know.

Nick (02:00:39):
So so I went. So so my grandpa's a minister. My mom was
the elder, delegate there. Andso so we were all there here in
5th grade going to senate, youknow, which I mean, you wanna
know how geeky CP we are. Herewe are.
It was in Little Rock. That waswhen it was Arkansas, and, I

(02:01:03):
basically just had free roam atthe hotel. Ran around the hotel
all day long. And then, youknow, I went to Toys R Us and
bought some kind of electronicgadget that I I'm sure I wanted.
So Doctor.
Nico GA came up, and I went. Ichatted Ngo. It was cool. Like I
said, I was 17 18, somewhere inthere. And I've been, you know,

(02:01:25):
somewhere in that neighborhood.
The press carrier gave us $500,and I said, hey. You can, you
know, get your hotel and, youknow, whatever you want,
sightseeing, whatever you wannado, you know, it's donuts. You
know, have a good time. And, Igot to the hotel and booked my
room. It's 4.99.
I said, wow. I got a dollarleft. But, that was my first GA

(02:01:48):
experience. It's pretty cool.And so then when I became an
elder, we go alphabetical, andthe church I was going to my
grandpa's church at that timeright after I got out of, decent
school.
And, it just came up. It wasEast Camden was a church. And so
I was, it was me and an old guy.The only reason I was an elder,

(02:02:09):
they they needed another person,you know. They were small and,
he didn't wanna go.
So I was gonna go. I was like,this is cool. And so, again, I'm
the youngest person in the room.Right? Everybody thought he was
a youth delegate.
I think I was 20, mate. It's inPaducah.

T.J. (02:02:22):
Okay.

Nick (02:02:24):
That was early, maybe 2,001, somewhere in there. Yeah.
I was married, so I had at least2,001. So we went. I'm the elder
delegate.
And, again, you know, it was itwas a neat experience. And so
when they told me I could go,they would send me every year. I
was gonna go. And so I startedgoing to GA, and I was like, oh,

(02:02:46):
this is neat, you know. And Iwas like, man, this would be so
cool to be the moderator, youknow.
I mean, I mean Even

T.J. (02:02:51):
back then. Even back

Nick (02:02:52):
then, you know. Alright. And, so, that was, I guess, when
I was still in pause. I waslike, you know, now one day I'll
finally finish this thing, getordained, and be cool. And, I
don't know.
I was I was kinda thought it'dbe cool. And then when I went
back to my vocational, it waskinda like, I quit going to

(02:03:14):
press, I mean, GA because, youknow, I gotta work now. Mhmm.
And, I don't know. That's that'skinda the end of it.
And, I kinda figured I'd nevergo. Whenever it's my turn to go
as a commissioner, I'll take offwork. But, so somebody text me,
back in August and not inAugust. I was trying to look

(02:03:37):
back at my thing. February.
Excuse me. February. And simpletext, let me nominate you for GA
moderator. I do not respond. Ithink I was eating supper.
I laughed a little bit. I toldmy wife. Uh-huh. She laughed.

(02:03:59):
Then he text back, says, let merephrase it into a question.
Would you consider beingnominated by Arkansas Presented
for GA moderator? I said, Iwould, but I really don't have
extra time to do a decent job.Plus, I'm probably way too
conservative to be elected, soI'll have to do that. So couple

(02:04:20):
days go by, he keeps messagingme. I said, let me think about
it.
And so it was like, you know, Imean, at one time when I was in
pause, I thought it'd be nice.Did a pretty cool job. Was like,
you know what? It's always theway it is. You know?

(02:04:41):
When I had time, I couldprobably do it. You know? It's
not there. Now I don't havetime. And, I told my wife that.
And she said, but you saidbefore it was on your, you know,
things you'd love to do in thechurch. So, yeah, it is, but it
just it's not me now. You know?I just I can't do it. So I

(02:05:04):
called my brother, and, wetalked a little bit.
And he said, you know, it'll be10 years or better for you're
even a commissioner again. Like,shoot. That'll be at 54. You
know? That's a long time.
Maybe life will be different.You know? Mhmm. Maybe things
will slow down. And so I justkinda left you with that.

(02:05:29):
And that little voice in thehead, you know, It's like, what
if I want you to do it? And I'mlike, you know, I hate when you
get those feelings. You know,like, God's opened up every door

(02:05:49):
that I've ever went through.I've always felt underqualified,
In long, and I've always feltvery qualified. And, if I can
humbly say, I could operatealmost any piece of equipment as
good or better than anybody outthere.
As far as driving and haulingwood, I I can haul more than

(02:06:09):
anybody. I can go harder,longer. I can do it. I come back
in the church. I've always feltlike I'm at the bottom.
You know, I'm just a guy with apause as an older student, you
know, late in the game. Youknow? But I've always been a yes

(02:06:33):
man to God. So so I said,alright, Lord. I don't know if
this is you or not becausethat's kinda how I pray
sometimes.
I don't know if it's you or notor just my crazy head. I said,
but if you want me to do it, youmake it work out. I'll say yes.
You work it out. If it's theanswer is no, you know, I'm fine
with that.
And so I told my wife that. Isaid, so here's what I'm

(02:06:54):
feeling. I'm feeling like sayingyes. I'll do it. It don't work
out.
It wasn't meant to be, and itain't on me. And, you know, I
gave it a shot. So I kinda thinkthat's was once in a lifetime
things. You know, usually, youdon't get nominated, and if you
don't make it, you know, 10years from now, let's try them
again. You know?
It's kind of a one and donekinda thing. What

T.J. (02:07:17):
was the attraction, back when you were a post student, to
the, the role of moderator?

Nick (02:07:26):
So back in high school, I was on parliamentary procedure
team Mhmm. In FFA. And sothere's actually a couple girls
who were on there that I knew,and they're like, hey. We need
some more people in this team orwe can have a team. And so
that's the only reason I saidyes.
You know? And so I did, and Iwas just one of the pea and on

(02:07:49):
that, it's like you have a achair and you have, 4 or 5
people. They're sitting at atable, and so in competition,
you come in, you sit down, youhave an issue to debate

T.J. (02:07:59):
Mhmm.

Nick (02:08:00):
And several motions, different kinds of motions you
have to make and then you haveto just free will it after that.
I mean, they don't tell you whatto say. You just, you know, if
if you have a motion to amend,you just motion to amend
whatever else somebody made themotion on. You just go with it,
you know? It was actually prettyfun in a nerdy kind of way.
Because usually FFA is, like,you know, cows and pigs and, you

(02:08:20):
know, chickens and dirty stuff.And so, the girl who is the
chair graduated. She's the onethat got me on there. And so the
next year, they're like, you'recoming back. And I was like, I
guess.
You know? And, like, would yoube chair? Sure, you know. And so
I gotta be the chair my senioryear. And it's it's kinda fun,

(02:08:42):
to be honest with you.
And it wasn't really my cup oftea back in high school. But, so
I guess that's where it stemmedfrom. I, you know, I thought it
was kinda cool. Just Yeah.

T.J. (02:08:52):
Got a taste of it early on of Yeah. Kinda like cheering,
moderating a meeting.

Nick (02:08:58):
Yeah. My grandpa had always, been really involved in
Presbyterian. He had quite thereputation, just, you know,
being moderator, doing things.Maybe he's a little bit out of
following in his footsteps alittle bit. So, that was kinda
it.
When I was in GracePresbyterian, man, I wasn't

(02:09:20):
there long. We were only inMississippi 6 years. They had
asked me to moderate Grace. Andit was kinda one of those
moments like, okay, Lord. Now Iknow why you wanted me to be on
this parliamentary thing back inschool.
You know? You're you'repreparing me for something. And
so, yeah, I served there andthen which I just got through

(02:09:41):
serving as moderator inArkansas. And I've almost been
here 2 whole years because wedo, like, vice moderators, which
you're nominated for, and thenthe next year, you move up.
Yeah.
And so the guy who is moderatorat the the first meeting, it
snowed, and he didn't make it.And, I'm just fast. It snowed,
and we just make it up there.I'm in jeans and t shirt, you

(02:10:03):
know. And, I get to meeting, andthey're like, you're gonna have
to moderate.
Oh, great. This is embarrassing.You know? And so, I mean, I look
like John Fetterman, you know,up here, in a hoodie. So,
anyhow, so I did that meeting,and he did the Saturday.
And then the next meeting, hiswife passed, and so he didn't

(02:10:25):
make it to that one either. So Imoderated it. And then, so the
next two times for me too. So Ijust kind of been stuck
moderator, and, I'm a drillsergeant, on the moderator
thing. I just I keep it flowing.
You know? I'm chop, chop, chop.Because I live on the secular
side, I live in the productionthing, and everything is snap,

(02:10:47):
snap, snap. I'm black and white.And people actually appreciate
that because we get out early.

T.J. (02:10:53):
And Yeah. Yeah.

Nick (02:10:55):
So so that's I guess that's all I want. I said, I
finally taste it back. I said,you know, if that's what y'all
wanna do, I'll I'll do it. Youknow? So here I am and, Yeah.
I'd love to do it. I love the CPChurch. I don't take it lightly.
It is a big job. If I wasn'tworking for myself, I probably

(02:11:18):
would have said flat no.
I have another guy that worksfor me. So, I'm kinda at that
stage where I can be a littleflexible, you know, if I need to
be somewhere. Not just medepending on me to make a
living. I got another truckrunning. So, I don't know.
You know? I'll try it. And if Idon't if I don't mind I think

(02:11:39):
there's only 2 of us. So I guessI guess it's 1 or the other.

T.J. (02:11:42):
Right. Yeah. So, you're most likely, in a couple of
months, gonna be voted either asmoderator or elected as
moderator or vice moderator. Youknow, the church is going
through the season of change,duress. I'm sure we could come
up with all different kinds ofnouns.
But how would you whether you'reelected moderator or vice

(02:12:07):
moderator, how would you helpthe church kind of move beyond
areas of contention? Or are yougonna stoke it with your black
and white hat?

Nick (02:12:25):
Here's here's the problem I see. And this is tough. And I
I've been all over this issue,And I don't know that I'm I'm
settled on either way, honestly.A little bit, I feel like we're

(02:12:46):
at an impasse, which sucks. Imean, it really does.
And we've been that way for awhile. I know, I served on the
CMT for a few years. Saw a lotof letters come in. People want
them to get posted, and theynever got posted. They got they

(02:13:07):
got trash can somewhere.
You know, really, it's on theI'd boil it down to just a
homosexual issue, but I mean,that's the main topic. I don't
know that we're ever gonnareconcile. I don't think we're

(02:13:31):
gonna reconcile. So it's how doyou move forward. And you look
at, every denomination that'swent through this, and it's tore
us apart, or tore them apart.
They lost members. We we've lostmembers. Everywhere I go, I see,
you know, people discuss it,which we've been Presbyterian

(02:13:54):
for so long ever since the PCUSAchurch, went down this road.
Everywhere you go, that's allpeople hear is we're
Presbyterian. You know, what'swhat's the answer?
Is it unity for the sake ofunity? Or is it reconciliation

(02:14:15):
on this side of, we all wannaagree and get along? And I don't
have an answer for that,honestly. I don't I don't know.
I don't think unity for the sakeof unity is right.
I feel like a hypocrite being aCumberland saying that

(02:14:37):
separating is wrong because wecame out of PCUSA. You know? We
left the Presbyterian Church andstarted our own. So I don't like
it when people say, well, you'rewe're wrong if we separate. So
as moderator, if so elected, Iwould like to see some common

(02:14:59):
ground, like, where we at.
And maybe that's just in havingan honest discussion because you
know as well as I do. Anytimethe topic comes up, it gets
heated, and we can't discussanymore. I mean, it's, we draw
swords and we're ready forbattle. You know? How is that

(02:15:24):
guy?
I mean, I remember I rememberbeing on the old cumber list.
You know? And well, they canthat thing. Somebody posted the
commenters on there, and I madetop 10 somehow or another. And,

T.J. (02:15:43):
That goes so far back. I mean, I wasn't on it. But

Nick (02:15:47):
Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people don't even remember it.
There's a lot of discussions onthere. I remember having some
heated discussions in the sametopics, and so that tells you
how long we've been discussingit.
And I remember being so mad, Icouldn't go to sleep at night.
And my wife would be like, wouldyou just get off that list? Just
get off of you know? I thinkpeople care because there's

(02:16:10):
passion, because we all wannasee the church, you know,
survive and go through this. SoI don't know.
I mean, I don't know what theanswer is. I'm not gonna pretend
that I have the right answer.But I wanted to where we can
discuss it honestly andcordially. And we're we're in

(02:16:35):
that place now. So if you sayanything negative, everybody's
like, you're a hater, you know.
I get that. And that's why I'vestopped comment on a lot of
stuff because, I'm black andwhite. I'm in your face. I mean,
I'm, things that hurt people'sfeelings don't bother me a bit.
You know, I'm just, like I said,I mean, I work in the woods.

(02:16:56):
You know? I mean, you look upheat heathen in the dictionary.
I mean, there's some of thoseguys I work with. I mean,
they're, they're so far out. Sostuff like that don't bother me.
I like a good heated debate.Maybe that goes back to that
parliamentary team I was on. I Ienjoy it. Mhmm. But I I see some

(02:17:18):
people are very sensitive andthey, you know if you say
something negative, they getreally upset.
I don't want us to be that way.I want us to discuss it, but it
is a hill that we're gonna haveto settle to move forward as a
church. And that's just a fact.Does that mean we separate?

(02:17:39):
Maybe.
If we do, that's not the worstthing in the world either. You
know? Paul and Barnabas, theyseparated and had 2 ministries.
But the longer we prolongwhatever, I think it hurts the
church. I think the quicker wesay, okay.

(02:18:01):
This is where we're at. We needa standard, whatever that is.
And when we agree on that, youknow, whether it's we agree to
get along or we agree to go ouropposite ways, I wanna do so in
a compassionate way, and, youknow, this is just the end of

(02:18:23):
the road. 1906 is is a, youknow, a bitter mark in common of
Presbyterians. You know?
I'd hate to see something likethat happen where it just blows
up, you know, at a meeting andeverybody goes their way. I I
won't call their name, but I Iknow, I I still have the email

(02:18:46):
that somebody sent and, youknow, talked about us having
that discussion, and justsaying, let's quit discussing
it. Don't talk about it. Youknow? And that's made it worse.
It's built up. So I don't knowif that answers your question,
but that's where I'm at. In thecountry, we say, pooper, get off

(02:19:09):
the pot. And that that's where Iam. Let's just decide where
we're gonna be and be there.
The the longer we prolongwhatever is is gonna hurt us. We
got bigger problem. I saybigger. They're different
problems, but, I mean, we'rewe're struggling to stay alive.

(02:19:30):
Arkansas Presbyterian, I thinkwe're down to 51 churches, I
think.
10 years ago, we were 60. I'msure it's the same way a lot of
other places, you know. Some ofthem need to close. I've I've
been an advocate for churchmerger for years, and I've got a
lot of hate over that. Just togo down our our our last, hard

(02:19:52):
topic when we're talking mergingwith the CPCA, I said from the
get go, we're not ready for thediscussion, We can't merge with
the church across the street.
Who's Cumberland? We have 4 CPchurches within 10 minutes in my
house. You know? Wow. We're notgonna merge.

(02:20:13):
How are we gonna talk aboutmerging with another
denomination? You know? And Iwas not against the merger. I
didn't like the plan. I I thinkI could've sat down and wrote a
plan that would've went a wholelot easier.
It it's it's it's all aboutrelationships, with people, and

(02:20:37):
I think that's what we missed.We got we got caught up in the
weeds of legalities and howthings would look, and and just
it went south. But we we gottado something as a denomination
or we're in trouble. So, youknow

T.J. (02:20:58):
You were telling me before we started recording that, there
was a book you wanted tomention.

Nick (02:21:06):
Yeah. Transforming Church in Rule America.

T.J. (02:21:12):
Okay.

Nick (02:21:13):
Shannon O'Dell.

T.J. (02:21:14):
Thank you for reading that for me because I was really
squinting. Yeah. I'm I'm anolder man. I'm 4 years older
than you.

Nick (02:21:22):
So, I went blind the last 2 years. So, when my wife was in
treatment, when the elders atour church, they have what they
call family week. So we, me andher mom and dad, flew out there
for family week and, wentthrough a lot of intense

(02:21:43):
counseling and all that. And soI mentioned earlier the book,
the the book was in the ArkansasDemocrat Gazette, and so I got
it when I got back home and readit. And, it's got a little
church in Northwestern Arkansas,little town nobody's ever heard
of, close to Harrison.

(02:22:04):
And, this guy came in. It's aBaptist church, about 60 people.
He had these big dreams of beingbig time, you know, big church.
Really struggled with God aboutgoing to this rural church. And
he went and had the sameproblems we all have, you know,

(02:22:28):
trying to get people to dothings different, build on
whatnot.
Anyhow, they wind up, growing,ran some people off, and began
to grow. And they took overanother church right down the
road from them who who wasdying. They just, which Baptist
work a little different than wedo, but, so they took over the

(02:22:48):
property, all that. The churchthat was dying just wanted the
building to stay and be in use,and that was kind of the only
way merged finances and whatnot.Yeah.
They used it for a youthfacility, the whole the whole
church. You know? They began togrow and grow, and long story
short, I can't remember whenthis book was the events

(02:23:11):
actually took place early 2000maybe. They got on eBay, and
they bought a Hummer with asatellite on it. And so they
bought a satellite truck for,like, a $100,000.

T.J. (02:23:23):
Okay.

Nick (02:23:24):
And, so they had they started setting up church
churches, in these other placesthat would, basically, like your
DIRECTV box. You you buy one ofthem. He says the money is
shooting the satellite up. Okay?Once you shoot the feet up,
there's no cost to bring itdown.
Anybody with the box can bringit down. And they started

(02:23:46):
setting up all these churchesall over, and it just took off
and grew. And his theory is thatwith spiritual gifts, only so
many people are gifted atpreaching, teaching. Some people

(02:24:07):
are gifted pastors at counselingand caring. Like I told you, me
and my wife.
I mean, she's the carecompassionate person. I'm not. I
hate to say this, but I'll sayit because we're talking. I feel
like my gift is behind thepulpit or or preaching. That's
my gift.
I feel like I'm good at. Mhmm.Not a whole lot else I feel like

(02:24:29):
I'm really good at it. But I andI feel like I am good at that.
I'm a good communicator.
Mhmm. Basically, because I'mADD, so I try to preach to
myself. If I if I'm simpleenough and to the point that
someone like me can understandand not fall asleep and stay
with it, that's what I try toreplicate. So so that's what he

(02:24:49):
said. So so they started settingup all these campuses, and they
have a campus pastor who takescare of everything in the
campus.
He preaches. That's it. And theythey just exploded. And, so I
was on board of missions, when Iread that, and I brought it back
to the world. I thought, we needto do this, you know?
And I even sent the What do youmean? To my

T.J. (02:25:12):
porta vision. Hold on. Let me let me interrupt you. When
you say we need to do this,you're you're taking back the
idea, a $100,000 Hummer with asatellite on top of it.

Nick (02:25:22):
Yeah. Yeah. Honeybay. Honeybay. Tell me the
denomination had to spend thatmuch money somewhere else and
wasted it.
Through the years, have we notwasted a 100,000 somewhere?

T.J. (02:25:36):
Probably. Probably. You talking about in just one big
fell swoop of, like, one check?

Nick (02:25:42):
Yeah. Oh, just a couple of them probably put together. Oh,
man. I'm sure an I'm sure

T.J. (02:25:49):
an outsider looking in could probably answer that a lot
quicker.

Nick (02:25:55):
I can name them, but I'm probably not going to. But I
know some of them that we'vetried that they just didn't
work.

T.J. (02:26:04):
Yeah. But you're not you're not afraid of trying.
Actually,

Nick (02:26:09):
that's what we

T.J. (02:26:10):
that that's what we've been discussing.

Nick (02:26:12):
Yeah. I'm not afraid. Yeah. I try new stuff all the
time. Mhmm.
In in business, I try. If itdon't work, I do something
different. I don't look at it asfailure. Mhmm. As in, that's
kept me down.
Back to my personality, I I'lldo anything. I'll try anything.
I started working on iPhones. II'd wanted to do it, and my wife

(02:26:37):
was like, no. Don't do that.
Do not do that. And I'm like,I'm not scared. I'll take one
apart in a minute. Back thenwhen I first started, you could
buy the tools, take the phoneapart for $20, you know? Right.
And, I just I really wanted todo it. And she was like, don't
do that, you know. So, I don'tknow if it's her phone or

(02:26:58):
somebody in our church. Theirphone messed up. And, I was
like, look.
You ain't got nothing to lose.Let me try to fix it. If I
can't, you know, your phone wasalready broke. And Right. If if
I fix it, just pay for theparts.
And they're like, okay. So, youknow, I bought the parts and,
you know, next thing I know, I'min the phone repair business.

(02:27:20):
That's gonna book you moneysince then, and the phones. A
matter of fact, you know, if youbreak your phone, you want it
tomorrow. Right?
You want it fixed now? Mhmm. Ifound a company I could buy
screens, but I had to bulk orderthem to get a deal on. I had to
buy $500 worth of stuff, so Ijust bought it. For I took the
random iPhones because at thatpoint, I think I started with
iPhone 5, and there was a 5 sand a c.

(02:27:46):
So I just bought, like, 2, 3 ofeach one of them. There were
different colors. You get whiteor black, you know. And so I
just bought a random amountjust, you know, on a gut feeling
that somebody's gonna crashtheir phone, you know. And I
could fix it in less than anhour.
And so I just started gettingthe word out. You know? People
start bringing their phones.I've invested something I could
lose, And and I did. I've got aiPhone 4, and my desk right here

(02:28:11):
is brand new.
I never put it on anything, justthe screen. You know? But I made
more than what it's worth. I'vegot an iPad screen, glass in
here I've never used. It goes toiPad too.
If anybody got one need itfixed, I've got it. I'll give
you the screen. So in thechurch, it's the same way. Like,
don't be afraid to try some.Mhmm.
You know, you're gonna fail.That's that's part of life.

(02:28:33):
Mhmm. You're gonna makemistakes. I've I've failed stuff
in business that didn't work.
I just you know, we just pawnedit and did something different.
You can't be scared to try. Youjust you gotta go out a limb. If
you never try something new, youalways do what you did. You're
you're gonna just be stuck rightthere.

(02:28:54):
That goes back to me doing allthat stuff in the church with
the different, you know, sermonstuff. It's just try, you know.

T.J. (02:29:00):
Right.

Nick (02:29:01):
And, yeah, I've made people mad. I made people leave
church that didn't likesomething I did. Mhmm. I've also
gained people, who weren't goingto church at all. So if I can
lose somebody who's I know issaved and is a believer, but
I've gained 3 or 4 people whowere not saved and got to see
them change their life, It'sworth it to me.

(02:29:22):
I know that didn't come acrossgood to a lot of people, but,
yeah. Yeah. Anyhow, I I I'vebeen on the inside, so I know a
few things we've done, just oncommittees I've served on. So I
know we've we've blown that tothe past on some stuff. And I
would say it, but I don't wannahurt anybody's feelings.

(02:29:42):
So, I'm not saying it's bad. I'mjust saying we've we've done it.
So so I I I emailed somebody. Idon't remember, Denominational
Board of Missions. I sent anemail.
I sent a book. Hey, read thisbook. You know, I was telling
everybody, read this book, youknow. I was like, if the
denomination could do this, wegot all these rural churches. We
can pick 1 I'm not saying it hadto be me.

(02:30:03):
I wouldn't I wouldn't evenadvocating for me. Mhmm. But
there are some really goodpreaching, teaching pastors. If
the denomination could spendthis money. Right?
Who you might not find asatellite truck on eBay for a
$100, but you might. How manychurches, rural churches, could
you supply good Cumberlandpreaching to that's not getting

(02:30:29):
anything now? Because hang on.We had another issue. We didn't
we talked about the tough issue.
What about all these otherchurches that are filled with
Nazarene preachers, baptistpreachers, Joe Blow off the
street preacher? That over time,we've lost those churches
because I don't care who youare. You preach what you

(02:30:51):
believe. If you're a Baptist,you're gonna preach Baptist. If
you're Nazarene, you're gonnapreach Nazarene.
It's gonna come out. So so we'velost churches because we don't
have good CP preaching. Youcould have fed the whole
denomination of rural churches.I don't know. I just know
Arkansas Presbyterian, and we'vegot quite a few.

(02:31:11):
You you could have supplied goodstuff. Now, unfortunately, that
was back in mid 2000. There's novideo streaming. People are
still against that. Thankfully,we had COVID to get people out
of box to finally say, okay,I'll take some video preaching
now, you know.

T.J. (02:31:31):
Yeah. Yeah. I was about to say that. Look look how fast the
tech has changed, you know,where you had to drop a $100
into a, you know, a movingvehicle, moving satellite Yeah.
Type thing.
And now now you just need yourphone.

Nick (02:31:45):
Right.

T.J. (02:31:46):
That's it.

Nick (02:31:46):
The day's changed. Yeah. And I still I'll go on record to
say, I still think, yeah, we'renot it's cheap now. I still
think that is the solution torural church. The the problem is
you're gonna need somebody of,maybe you, somebody in your
position to go around all overand to convince, you know, old

(02:32:12):
people older people, who are nottech savvy, that we can provide
you good preaching every Sunday,good CP preaching, good
theology, good teaching, andit's right here.
You're just gonna have to watchit on screen. I'll go a step
further. You could also domusic. I don't know what it
sound like. It takes sometweaking, to lead the worship

(02:32:36):
service, you know, via video.
I mean, they do it. They do thewhole service. You know? So you
can do it. It would take someleg work to convince people to
do it.
The the church, that I go down,I video preach. That started in
COVID because we weren't doinganything video. And, we're like

(02:32:58):
anybody else. Our videoconsisted of we had a camera at
the back that went to thefellowship hall. And, you know,
when we didn't have church, wewent 8 weeks without church.
And, so I was like, hey, let's,I'm tech savvy. We'll do this.
So, you know, I get a we had acamera at the church already and
put up on a tripod, set it up infront of the, front of the

(02:33:20):
church. You know? I hit it.
Me and 2 of my kids went upthere every Saturday night. I
preached to a wall everySaturday night. I went back
home, edited to what I you know,however it needed to be, trimmed
it up

T.J. (02:33:33):
Mhmm.

Nick (02:33:33):
And, uploaded it to YouTube and send a link out to
everybody, because I got peoplethat can't go to YouTube. I
mean, you just gotta send them alink every week. You know, here,
click this link. And, they saidthe church, they were like, I, I
was their moderator. So theythey were like, oh, yeah.
We've been looking at you onYouTube. I was like, really? You
know? That go they are. I guess,either because one of them was

(02:33:56):
having to fill in every week.
You know? Mhmm. And so we boughta camera, put it back to church,
you know, and spent a littlemoney and, you know, voila. Now
we're every week, had a old ladyat our church who, they live
about 30 minutes from here. Theygot to where they couldn't come,
and she text I didn't know shetext.
She text me out of the blue oneday. She's like, I really enjoy

(02:34:16):
these messages. You know? Theyhadn't been at church in a year.
You know?
Wow. And now she takes me everyweek when she gets to the
sermon. She's like, oh, greatmessage. You know? She's she's
probably 80.
You know? Yeah, man. Let's openthe door. But for the record,
since, oh, no. A 10.

(02:34:41):
It's gonna be 2010, probably.I've I've been telling people
about this book, and that's whatthey do. Because they their
purpose is to go to ruralcommunity. And they I don't know
how many churches they got now.I can give him a shout out if
you don't mind.
But it's brand new church.Anyhow, Shannon O'Dell, made it
in person at c three conference.He's the one who told me, if you

(02:35:05):
can get out away from God, run.But if God catches you this day.
And, yeah, it's a great book.
Buy it and read it, man. It's,it's it's antique now. Nobody
has a satellite truck. You know?Yeah.
But, we don't need it. I guessthey sold it on eBay. I'm not
sure what they did. But, butthey plan churches all over
Arkansas. They had some inTexas, when the book is written.

(02:35:27):
They reach people, and that'swhat you need. You need you need
good solid teaching, preaching.For me personally, if I'm gone
and I don't miss hardly ever,it's hard to find somebody to
fill the pulpit. I've hadsomebody to fill for me before,
and my kid like, if I was justgone, like, when I was on CMT
and I'd have to miss, I wouldjust try to find random people

(02:35:49):
around that could fill in, andmy kids would be like, do not
ask that person back. You know?
And they're my sounding board,you know. And, I had a guy fill
in for me, here, maybe a yearbefore last. And, me and my wife
went somewhere for anniversary.And so we're you know, I have

(02:36:10):
people who depend on us filmingfor for their service, you know,
like the other church. And so Itell my son, and my oldest son,
my daughter, they they have leadworship.
And so I said, tell the guy,stay we don't have the we don't
have a remote. I mean, you know,where you can sit there and move
it. It will move, but we don'thave anybody monitoring. It's

(02:36:32):
just set up for the center. So Isaid, tell the guy, stay between
the candles.
Don't get outside the candles oryou're off camera. You know? I
said, stay in the mic. Don'tpull the mic away because if you
pull the mic away, they can'thear you Mhmm. On YouTube.
You know? And, it's my son. He's16. He goes up and tells this
adult adult man how to do andall this stuff. And I don't

(02:36:53):
think he liked it very much.
And, you know, he made severalcomments during the summer
because I think he was a pacerand, about how he was told to
stay between candles, you know.And I was like, just go with the
instructions. You don't have totell everything. Just Yeah. You
know.

T.J. (02:37:06):
Yeah. Just

Nick (02:37:07):
I'm dependent on you for this video, you know? They're
depending on so I mean, I had toclip a bunch of him out. Just
time's sake. But, so but now,most time I leave, I'll go to
church by myself, and I'll justpreach the wall, upload it, and
they can watch me when I'm gone.You know?
How you don't wanna get avacation and blah blah blah. I

(02:37:29):
mean, it is what it is. Youknow?

T.J. (02:37:31):
Right.

Nick (02:37:33):
So I I love the technology. It's it's good. And,
you really love somebody aroundthere who wants to push that
across the denomination. I'mtelling you, it's it's the way
to go. Well, you you're not the

T.J. (02:37:48):
you're not the only one. There are other churches that
are doing the same thing. Andthen you gotta think about what
which 1 or 2 or 3 voices do youreally want to represent and can
represent the entiredenomination in terms of

(02:38:08):
preaching? That's

Nick (02:38:09):
the last one he said is the one that was we gotta focus
on, can. Yeah. Let's say can.Because not all CP ministers or
CP theology for 1, and not allCP ministers are very good
preachers too. And it's not adiss on everybody.

(02:38:34):
It's just not it's noteverybody's thing. Some some
people are great, you know, withthe pastoral care part.

T.J. (02:38:45):
The gifts and skills are different. And I think that's
what helps make the church goand what makes the community of
faith what it is.

Nick (02:38:53):
Yeah. We were just stuck because the way we're set there
are a few churches that havemultiple, pastors on staff. But
for the most part, we're a ruralchurch and we you're there,
you're everybody. I mean, you'reyou're pastor, you're, you know,
the preacher, the teacher, allthe stuff.

T.J. (02:39:12):
The plumber, the electrician.

Nick (02:39:13):
Yeah. Cut the grass. Mhmm. Yeah. Done all that.
Yeah. I I've done a lot throughthe years. I mean, I've
installed security systems. Imean, you name it. I've I've
done it, in a church.
Because when you're full time ina at a small church, that's
that's what you do. I mean,you're most small, small church

(02:39:36):
pastors are very gifted, skillwise. If you're not, you're not
gonna make it very long.

T.J. (02:39:40):
Right. Yeah.

Nick (02:39:41):
If you follow somebody who was, you know, they're like,
well, the last preacher fixedthe sink, you know, unclog the
toilet. Did He get hung in that.

T.J. (02:39:50):
But Yeah. Did the shopping was the was the janitor. Yep.
Yeah.

Nick (02:39:55):
But I do think that's the key. And, yeah, you're right. I
mean, choosing the right person.And maybe it's by a presbytery
basis. You know, maybe ourpresbytery does it.
But back then when I firststarted, screaming that, we
needed whole denomination moneyfor that. Now we don't. I mean,
each presbytery can fund that ontheir own. I mean, I think the

(02:40:16):
camera we got in the back of ourchurch is like maybe a grand.
It's just a NDI camera.
And, you know, and what's theInternet? You know, depending on
where you're at, Internet ispretty cheap now. Right. I just
bought a new TV the other day.It's only the 2nd TV I've ever

(02:40:36):
bought in my life.
I always had somebody give me agift card for pastor
appreciation for something orwhatever.

T.J. (02:40:42):
Mhmm.

Nick (02:40:43):
And, my my little kids wanted a a TV in their room, but
theirs quit. And so, so I'mgonna buy a new TV. Well,
actually, my wife because Idon't really watch it, but, for
our bedroom because we can'tsee. We're old, man. We can't I
have to use the, the words atthe bottom now, and I can't read
them, you know?

(02:41:03):
So, I I bought a 65 inch TV atWalmart for $300, and I'm like,
this is nuts. I didn't realizethere was some cheap mail, you
know. Yeah. You can do that inany congregation, you know. And
just put it up there.
I mean, maybe they sit closer orwhatever. I don't know. Can you
put close caption on yoursermon? Anyhow. I don't know.

T.J. (02:41:23):
You find out, get back to me. Let me know on that.

Nick (02:41:25):
That that might be good too. So so yeah, man. It's easy.
But, yeah, that was, that'sthat's one of the most memorable
books that I've read. Uh-huh.
And that because a lot of it isjust reaching outside the box,
trying to reach communities,trying to reach churches.

T.J. (02:41:39):
Isn't that funny? We spent, gosh, probably 15, 20
minutes

Nick (02:41:44):
Yeah.

T.J. (02:41:44):
Just on the book review. The book recommendation and what
it meant to you. And we just.It's what I enjoy about
conversations, and I I'veenjoyed this one with you today.

Nick (02:41:58):
It's it's, yes, a lot that goes into, I guess, what we do.
And even like I said, that thatwas just somebody saw the book
and recommended to me, but itchain it impacted me just
because of of that, you know.And then and then meeting him
and talking to him impacted memore because, I guess I'll let

(02:42:22):
this out. Somewhere right afterI talked to him, I did quit. I
quit altogether, for about 4months.
And

T.J. (02:42:32):
Quit church. Yeah. Quit ministry.

Nick (02:42:34):
Quit preaching. Yeah. Oh. I quit I quit and bought a
truck, and, I kinda thought I'djust go back by vocational
house. We're going through somestuff at church, and, it was it
was rough.
I had upset some people, whowere used to getting their way

(02:42:57):
with everything, and they werethey were bullies, church
bullies. And, I just I stood up.I don't I just don't play that
game. And, they they set out tomake my life miserable. And, I
mean, one of the one of them'shusband was I mean, he would
just text me in the middle ofthe night, you know, tell me get

(02:43:19):
up.
I mean, just kinda confront me,you know, call me names and, all
kind of stuff. You know, makingup lies, saying I was having a
fair with my wife, you know,which man, that it hurt. It hurt
my life. It hurt me. And I don'tknow why it's the go to when
you're ready to get rid of apreacher, but it it it was just

(02:43:45):
it was tough.
Wound up having that, have awoman, or our whole family,
actually, kicked out of church.And, which is funny. We had done
a study on the confession of thefaith, and I almost didn't do
the, rules of discipline. And Iwas like, well, we'll just go
through this. Nobody does thisanymore.
We'll just do it anyhow. That'sit's short. You know? We went

(02:44:06):
through the rules of discipline,and we just finished that. And
so I brought it to the elders.
I was like, yeah. Hey. It'sright here. And, we did. We
suspended their membership and,asked them not to come back.
I would try to tell you we're ina small church, small community,
and, man, it gets over townquick. I had people running up
to me in town, you know. Didy'all really kick somebody out

(02:44:26):
of the church? You know? Yeah.
We did. You can't do that. I waslike, actually, yeah. You can.
And, I even asked, like, blastme on Facebook on, one of the
church pages, you know, about medoing that.
And they had contacted the statedepartment of the Presbyterian,

(02:44:47):
you know, and I got contacted.Like, y'all didn't do this
right, you know. And I was like,yeah. We did. I did it by the
book.
I mean, because that's why I'mby the book.

T.J. (02:44:55):
I remember that. I forgot all about that, Nate. Yeah.
Because you and I had talkedkinda Yeah. Early on.
That was not a fun time for you.I I remember was

Nick (02:45:04):
always Yeah. That woman, she was mean. She was, I'm not
gonna call her no names, but Imean, she was mean. That's the
hardest thing I've ever had todo in ministry, was ask somebody
not to come back. And I've Iwent through some stuff.
I mean, the a lot of them, Iprobably wouldn't bring up,

(02:45:26):
here. But, I've been throughsome hard stuff in ministry, and
that was the hardest. But, wegot that settled, man, and I
just need a break. So I did. I II did I went back to what I
knew.
I knew trucking, and I bought atruck, and, we moved back home.

(02:45:49):
And I thought, you know, I'lljust throw my POF out there and,
see if I can find anybody, youknow, within driving distance in
Arkansas to go to. And man,nothing. Nobody called. And when
you talk about hurt your ego, noway I'll even give you an
interview.
And I know churches all aroundus that didn't have a pastor.

(02:46:11):
Oh, no. And, like, nobody wouldeven talk to us.

T.J. (02:46:13):
Oh, no.

Nick (02:46:16):
It was it was, it was depressing. It was very
depressing. And I was like,maybe who's it? You know? And so
we would visit around and go tosome churches and you know,
being a pastor, you're the, or Iam.
You kinda walk in, you shakehands, visit with everybody
before church starts, you know,and Mhmm. I would just go sit

(02:46:39):
down, you know, and feel weird.Like, I'm not supposed to be in
a pew. I haven't sat by my wifein years. You know?
And we did that, and, now I'mdoing, Lord, eat me alive. And
so, that was, like, in January.By March, I was like, okay. Make

(02:47:01):
a deal. So, lord, you help mesell this truck I just bought,
and, I'll throw my name back outthere.
I'll go anywhere you open thedoor. And my my best friend,
where my mom works, he said,hey. I'll buy it in the end of
the truck. I'll buy it. And thechurch I'd left, I I called

(02:47:22):
them.
I was like, hey. Just lettingy'all know. I said I'm I'm I'm
not gonna quit. I'm getting backin it. I'm gonna put my name
out.
If y'all are interested, we caninterview again.

T.J. (02:47:38):
The church you just left.

Nick (02:47:39):
The church I just left. I said, you know, if you're not,
no hard feelings, you know, butI just I felt like I left in a
rough time, and so, you know, ify'all have me back, I'll come
back. So we went out there andinterviewed again, and there's
some agreement on some thingsbeing different. And, we were

(02:48:01):
living in, the manse at thattime. It was, like, 1100 square
feet.
There was, we had 5 kids at thatpoint. So 7 of us. We were
stacked on top of each other.And, we said we got more room. I
mean, we just you know?
And our kids were little then,but it was like we we run out of

(02:48:23):
room. And so they agreed tobuild on to the mats and give us
a little bit of a raise, becausewe were struggling. We had we
had sold some stuff where wemoved, you know, and had a
little savings put back, and itit dwindled to nothing. And,
that's kinda when I startedworking some of those part time

(02:48:45):
jobs in between, you know, justtrying to make it. And so some
things changed, so we wound upgoing back.
And so I never officially Ipressed straight, never met to
dissolve my letter. So, it'slike nothing ever happened
really, but, I was gone fromJanuary to May. We went back
mother's day, and I stayed 2more years. Mhmm. And finished a

(02:49:10):
lot of things, did some problemsthat were around there.
I got to see a lot of thingsclose that I should've got done
before I left. So it's kindaweird time, but I knew then,
this is what I was called to do.So I'm like, alright, lord. I'm
gonna I'm gonna put all thiswork in the woods and stuff in
the back, and, I'm yours here onout. And so we sold our we had

(02:49:33):
left our house here.
We had it rented out, and wesold it, everything we had and
moved. And I didn't get any parttime jobs. I just, other than
working on cell phones. We justdid that, yeah, for 2 years,
and, I really felt peace aboutit. Had some job opportunities

(02:49:54):
in between there.
People would call. Nope. I amnot going nowhere. Not going
nowhere. You know?
And, I don't know. Everythingwas peaceful then, and it just
felt complete. And that's whenthe church I'm at now called and
said I said, we want somebodypart time. I was like, no. I'm
I'm here.
You know? Right. And it's likeGod finally just said, okay. The

(02:50:17):
door is shut here. It's it'stime to go back home.
And so we did. And, guess, I hadthat feeling like there's so
many small churches. I can't Ican't find anybody. Nobody wants
to move there. And so I waslike, you know, I'm hometown
boy.
I found a job. And so I did. Icame back and that's when I

(02:50:39):
started working, movingoversized. I've kinda been at
peace being by vocational sincethen. There's times I miss being
in full time ministry.
And I told the elders when Icame here. I was like, you know,
visiting and all that stuff,like, I can't do it. I just
can't. I can I can preach foryou? I can teach.
I can do Sunday morning, Sundaynight. I'll be involved

(02:51:02):
Wednesday with youth and stuff,but I can't make commitments.
And that was kinda deal when Icame here. I said, you know, I
can't overwork myself. I've gota family, you know, But I can
provide solid preaching,teaching, leadership.
The rest of it, y'all gonna haveto provide. And they were in
agreement with that, and so, wecame. That's kinda that's kinda

(02:51:25):
what I do now. You know? I teachand preach, and, somebody else
kinda handles the rest of thestuff.
You know, my wife included. Imean, she I couldn't make it
without her. She she's so goodto check on people and, constant
contact with people. She hasthat sense about her that she

(02:51:46):
can tell when stuff's going on,you know, that I'm probably
bogged down with work and allthat, but, you know, I don't.
But it works out good.
You know, I got to watch my kidsgrow up, see my kids involved
in, leading worship. Theystarted that somewhere around
when we came back from COVID. Wehad lost some people, and so I I

(02:52:12):
was leading the music then. I'mnot really a music leader, but,
I was doing it. I really wannastart playing my guitar.
And so, so I started playing,and it was like, I mean, it's
tough playing and singing both.So I got 2 of them involved,
and, they helped they helped theleading part, and I kinda sing
along and play. Yeah. My son, hestarted playing the 1st of this

(02:52:36):
year or some. And, so, you know,we're in a small church, and
we're just, I guess, holding ourown and trying to do whatever we
can, begin to watch them I miss

T.J. (02:52:52):
Is it fulfilling?

Nick (02:52:54):
Yeah. It is. Mhmm. Alright. We have bible study on
Sunday night, and it's it'sslim.
I mean, I I was gonna give it upfor a while, and then one of our
elders, he's just he's like,man, he said, you're you're
really good at this. You'rereally good at at teaching, you
know, which my teaching istotally different than the the

(02:53:15):
preaching side. And my wifealways tells me, she's that's
your strongest point, which wasthat I was scared of the most
when I started. You know? Ienjoy it, man.
My kids take notes.

T.J. (02:53:25):
This is the kid who went to school and didn't like it

Nick (02:53:28):
and Yeah.

T.J. (02:53:28):
Yeah. Teaching.

Nick (02:53:29):
My kids, are probably into it more than anything. My my
daughter, she's, she just turned19. Man, she takes notes
backwards, sideways in herbible. I mean, she's filled it
up with stuff, and I mean, she'sgot a notebook out. And, they're
I said that they're moreinvolved than anybody else as
far as the discussion part.

(02:53:50):
Because that's my idea. Biblestudy is not a lecture. It's
it's a discussion. Our firstchurch, we did it on Wednesday,
and we did a meal. So peoplewould we had all the tables and
fellowship all in a circle, andI would I would eat mine real
fast.
And, while they're still eating,you know, I would start and just
let people discuss stuff becausethat helps me figure out where
you're at, what you know. It'snot about answering questions

(02:54:14):
like you did in school. It'sit's just do you get this? You
know, where where do you wannadiscuss more? And so I just pick
a book of the bible.
We just go line by line. I usedto do a chapter a night, and I
comment on it a little bit, andI try to get them to get into
it. You know? And who knows? Adiscussion can go way out there.

(02:54:34):
Sometimes it's kinda blank.Nobody says anything, but but
it's good. And, yeah, justwatching my kids, man, learn.
They're so much better than Iwas at that age. And go back to
the question you asked about thefamily.
Man, my family now is 10 timesmore discussing of the bible at

(02:54:55):
the house. You know? I mean,we'll sit around the table and
get deep into somethingtheological or something, and
I'll get all my kids. I hadn'ttold you all that 10 times, you
know, you know, and try to getthem to learn, you know. Yeah.
I wanna be able to hold theirown, you know, theologically.

T.J. (02:55:13):
Mhmm.

Nick (02:55:15):
It's it's fun, you know, just seeing them progress in
their understanding.

T.J. (02:55:20):
Yeah. And it and it's in a safe environment, you know. It's
it's the family to be able tohave those. So the dialogue does
not mean that the family iscrumbling when there's
disagreements.

Nick (02:55:33):
Right. Right.

T.J. (02:55:34):
You know, the relationship is maintained, maybe even
deepened.

Nick (02:55:40):
Yeah. We, I remember back in pause, we were talking about
Paul. And, some of the way theydiscuss scripture. Mhmm. And it
was almost like a debate in theway that they would learn and,
you know, who could hold theirown the most.
You see that in Paul's life, youknow, when he goes out
ministering. You know, I'm justthinking about Mars Hill, you

(02:56:03):
know, where he goes up and jumpsright in the middle of people
and and, that's kinda how I grewup, you know, you you kinda you
get in there and like, I was thequiet kid just listening to my
parents, my brother talking, youknow. And I always felt like my
brother has, like, thisphotographic memory. He can
remember all this stuff, and Iwas struggling to remember
stuff. And, like, as the yearsgo by, the more I put in, more I

(02:56:25):
go over these things, like, itsticks in, you know, and so
that's why I've done my kids.
I just over and over and over.And so growing up, it's the same
way I've done my family. Like,we interrupt people. I mean, if
you wanna talk, you gotta buttin and and go with it, you know.
Mhmm.
I mean, you know, my brother, hecan talk for for hours, you
know. And so if I wanna get in,I just gotta I gotta butt in,

(02:56:46):
you know. And so I taught mykids to do that, and my wife's
telling us, it's not like that.She'll be quiet until we get
through. And she's like, y'alldon't let me talk.
And I'm, no. You you just gottabutt in. Like, that's that's how
we roll. You know? And it's it'skind of like a a in your face,
but not like a not like a in arude way.
It's just we're aggressive aboutit, you know, and, and I enjoy

(02:57:10):
it. I love talking with Baptistand Methodist and whoever. I've
studied their their beliefs, andso I like getting in with them
too. You know? And I do.
I hurt people's feelingssometimes because I'm I'm
probably too much. But but Ilike it. I it's fun for me. It's
it's debate. You know?

T.J. (02:57:30):
I think this is a good place to stop, Nick. We started
with where you are currently,you know, and and some of the
jobs you had. And you've broughtus all the way around to back to
the present tense. I think Ithink it's a good place to stop.
We've been talking for a littlewhile.

Nick (02:57:49):
Yeah. It's fine, man. I I love why. I love CP Church. I
say that.
I I don't know the future of thechurch.

T.J. (02:58:05):
Who does?

Nick (02:58:06):
But, I know this, man, because we visit around. I don't
know where else I would be, youknow. Theologically, I don't
know where I would fit. And andwe visit some Baptist churches
while I was out and, like, Ithink Southern Baptist are close
to us theologically. But likesome of those stuff, I just I

(02:58:27):
can't I can't get behind, youknow.
So this I'm hardcore, you know.Mhmm. Something happens to our
church, you know. I'm an orphan.And so I just I guess back to
the moderator thing, you know, Ijust I hope I would add
something to encourage thechurch to keep moving.
Go back to the spirit of 18 10to to push out, to go to the

(02:58:50):
frontiers to where nobody's at.You know? Let's get out of the
church and get out to wherepeople are. With me, it's been
by vocational. Find find wherepeople are, you know?
They're not suspecting of apastor when you show up at
overalls. So,

T.J. (02:59:07):
Well, Nick, thank you. Thank you for sharing your faith
and thank you for just bringingyourself to the table. And maybe
if anything, we've modeled whata faith conversation can look
like. And it isn't it isn't in aparameter. Is it 20 minutes to
have good conversation?
It can take a while and multipletimes.

Nick (02:59:29):
Oh, yeah. No doubt. It's good. I appreciate you asking me
to be on.

T.J. (02:59:34):
Thank you for listening to this faith journey on Cumberland
Road. In closing, I leave youwith some words of reverend
Finas Ewing, one of the framersof the Cumberland Presbyterian
Church. "Every minister of thegospel whom God approves as such

(02:59:55):
is the subject of a distinct,particular, and special internal
call to responsible work."Thanks for listening.

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Nick Chambers - Work, Family, & Ministry

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