Vernon Sansom - The Will To Walk Through

Reverend Vernon Sansom is the Director of Operations at Oak Ridge Memorial Park (ORMP) in Oak Ridge, Tennessee. He joined the team in 2020 as a Family Service Counselor after retiring from 40 years of service in Pastoral Ministry. Vernon was promoted to Director of Operations at ORMP in 2022. Vernon holds a Bachelor of Arts in Religion from Bethel University and a Master of Divinity from Memphis Theological Seminary. Before his career at Oak Ridge Memorial Park, Vernon entered full-time ministry in 1980 and was ordained in 1987. He has previously pastored First Cumberland Presbyterian Church of Oak Ridge, Tennessee, as well as churches in Ovilla, Texas, Ft. Worth, Texas, Bolivar Tennessee and served on staff in Longview, Texas. Reverend Sansom served as the Stated Clerk of Red River Presbytery for 10 years and the Engrossing Clerk of The General Assembly of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church for 9 years. Vernon serves as a Chaplain for the Oak Ridge Police Department and earned Basic Certification through the International Conference of Police Chaplains (ICPC). He also serves as the Chaplain for TN II Chapter of the Blue Knights, International. Vernon’s wife, Tina, is a retired Registered Nurse. They have three grown children and nine grandchildren.

Music is provided by Pierce Murphy, Caldera Blue. 
Source:  https://www.freemusicarchive.org/music/Pierce_Murphy/through-the-olive-branches/caldera-blue
Comments: http://freemusicarchive.org/
Additional comments:  modifications made to shorten and loop song for introduction and closing of podcast.
Copyright Attribution and License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

Episode Transcript

T. J. (00:03):
To the Cumberland Road. I am TJ Malinoski. In this
episode, I am in conversationwith Vernon Sansom. I've had the
privilege to get to know Vernonover the last year or so in
serving on different boards andcommittees. I was first

(00:25):
acquainted with him as he servedas the engrossing clerk of the
general assembly of theCumberland Presbyterian Church.
Vernon is retired from full timeministry, but you wouldn't know
it by his work schedule.Currently, he is the director of
operations at Oak Ridge MemorialPark in Oak Ridge, Tennessee. As

(00:51):
we talked, I learned that Vernonis living an interesting life
with interesting hobbies and agenuine interest for people's
well-being. From being in acover band to riding motorcycles
to volunteering as a chaplain,Vernon has some great stories to
tell. Enjoy this conversationwith Vernon Sansom.

(01:21):
Vernon, you've been a ministerin Tennessee and Texas. You have
been a chaplain in differentareas. You've been a presbytery
stated clerk. You've been thegeneral assembly engrossing
clerk for the CumberlandPresbyterian denomination. You
are the director of operationsat Oak Ridge Memorial Park in

(01:44):
Oak Ridge, Tennessee. And thoseare just the vocations that I
know of that you have served inand worked in. But thinking back
out of all the different jobsand vocations and callings that
you have had, what's one storyor moment that rises to the top

(02:06):
that pertains to your Christianfaith?

Vernon (02:11):
Well, I really think it could be in the pastorate and
really all areas of it. But Ithink I'm most effective like
when there's a death or somekind of a tragedy in a family.
That's why I think I do well asa police chaplain even because I
can go into a situation. I canbe empathetic, but I also keep

(02:36):
myself distance away from it soI can I won't go to pieces, you
know?

T. J. (02:41):
Yeah.

Vernon (02:41):
It's so easy when you have a relationship with people
in a pastor, you get so involvedin their lives that when a death
happens or or some tragedyhappens, it's almost like it's
happening in your own family andit'd be very easy to get where
where you get so emotionallyinvolved that that you're not

(03:02):
any use. And I found that Icould do that and that really
is, I think, one of my giftsthat I brought into the
ministry. And that's always beenthe most rewarding part of my
life. It might sound funny as apolice chaplain that I can go

(03:24):
and make a death call at 03:00in the morning to just a
complete stranger and walk awayfeeling good about it. I can and
not everybody can do that.
So I guess the service part ofministry is where I feel like I
really shine. And so it's thisapostrophe that gets me. The

(03:44):
other jobs I've done, the datedclerk, the engrossing clerk, I
get satisfaction out of thosebut that's just because I was
able to organize them andhopefully made them a little
better. But that wasn't aspiritual journey for me, that
was work. I did enjoy it.

(04:05):
I'm very grateful to thedenomination for allowing me to
serve in a lot of differentareas.

T. J. (04:13):
There's something about entering into somebody else's
life when they are maybe attheir most vulnerable, or at a
place where they are at a loss.And to have somebody enter in
into that sphere, and to providecomfort, or just a presence, or

(04:37):
encouraging words, I can seewhere that would be rewarding
for the for you, the giver. Alsoexhausting. As you know, I mean,
in some situations, I wouldimagine as a police chaplain,
but also as a pastor, there canbe chaos abound and all around

(05:01):
you and to be able to bepinpoint focused on an
individual or a couple or afamily and give them your
undivided attention, genuineundivided attention. And I and
knowing you a little bit, seeingyourself as a representative of

(05:21):
God.
There's something fulfilling inthat.

Vernon (05:27):
There is and there's one thing that I learned early on
that helped me get through thatand helps me to be effective in
those roles is that's you don'thave to always say something.
One of the best gifts you cangive people is just your
presence. I go back to the storyof Job, you know, three friends.

(05:50):
They did a great job as long asthey sat there with him for
quiet. They got in trouble whenthey opened their mouth, you
know.
And a lot of preachers can getin trouble when they open their
mouths.

T. J. (06:00):
Yeah, a lot of them were telling Job how to feel and what
to do. I don't know if he askedany of that.

Vernon (06:10):
No, and that's you you don't really know how they feel.
You can't really describe iteven if you've gone through a
similar situation. You don'tknow how they feel, and I always
thought my job was be there withthem, to be a presence for
Christ for them, and to let themknow that everything's gonna be

(06:34):
okay, you know, and we'll getthrough it. And I was always the
calm one. I also would go a lotof times like it's a hospital
visitation after a surgery whenthe doctor would come out to the
family, I would listen.
Of course, I trained as an EMTA,so I was just not enough medical
knowledge to be dangerous, but Iwouldn't listen. And when they

(06:56):
got to talk to the doctor, timesthey have it wrong. And I was
able to say, well, no, this iswhat they said, you know, and I
always felt good about that. Andpeople seem to appreciate that,
you know. I was calm.
I wouldn't let the emotions getto it. And I have to put that
all on Christ. One time I wasgetting ready to do a death

(07:17):
notification with the sergeantsand he said, how do you get
ready for that? And I said wellif my wife is not at work and
she's awake because she workednights, I'd always call her and
say I'm getting ready to go on acall of some kind, pray for me.
I said then I would say a prayerand then I'd wait to let the
Holy Spirit take care of it fromthere, know, I didn't know

(07:40):
exactly where I was going.
It's not canned. And, but Ialways would ask the officer,
because they like to be incharge, says, want me to handle
it or you want me to just bethere as a presence? And most of
would always say, oh, you handleit, know. In this case, well I
don't know, I've never done one.He'd been an officer for twelve,
thirteen years and I couldn'tbelieve he had dodged that

(08:01):
bullet.
And so we're riding to the houseright at that time in the car
and he says, can we pray? And sowe stopped on the side of the
road and I said, okay, do youwant to pray or you want me to
pray? Oh, you pray. It's okay.So we bowed, we prayed, and we
heard a couple cars drive by us.
They were just about a blockaway from the house we were
going to, and we got done. Hesaid, I guess when we get back

(08:23):
to the station two citizens aregonna call and say we just saw
two police officers sleeping onthe side of the road. But I'm
never afraid to let my faithshow, but I don't drum it into
people. I don't push it onpeople. Very ecumenical,

(08:45):
especially if you're doing likethe police chaplaincy, you've
got to be able to speak all thedifferent religious languages
and respect everyone's faith andjust deal with from there.
But anyway, that's kind of whatI enjoy doing.

T. J. (08:58):
How did you discover this gift of the ability to be able
to be a presence for people in atime of crisis, in a time of
trauma?

Vernon (09:12):
I don't know if I want tell this story or not.

T. J. (09:16):
There is a story then.

Vernon (09:17):
It is a story. It is a story. Was on staff at Elmira
Chapel. I hadn't had mybachelor's degree. I wasn't even
a candidate for ministry at thispoint.
And I was getting ready to havea procedure done. I was very
nervous about medical and I hadto be at the doctor at a certain
time. My senior pastor was outof town. All the other staff

(09:41):
members I couldn't get ahold ofhim and I was put in contact
with a son of one of our memberswho seemed to kill himself
because his wife just left him.And, you know, I didn't know
what to do, you know.
I didn't have the presence atthat time to, you know, call
some authority and say, hey,y'all need to stop him. But I

(10:01):
talked to you on the phone. Andhe says, got to come over here.
I'm saying, man, I don't think Iwant to do that. But okay.
And so I said, well, now you sayyou're going to kill yourself.
You know how you're to killyourself? Yeah, I got a gun.
Okay, you got bullets? I gotbullets.
I said, you're really going doit? I'm going to do it. I said,
I don't know if I want to bethere with a gun in the house.

(10:24):
Tell you what I'll do. I willcome over there.
But I want to hear you take withthe phone, I want to hear you
take the bullets out of the gun.I want to hear you drop them
into a drawer and open anotherdrawer. Want you to put the gun
in that one and then I'll comeover there. And like a fool, I
did. And we got through it andgot him the help he needed.
Everything worked out. By thattime I went to the medical to

(10:48):
the doctor and, you know,they're gonna put me in twilight
sleep. I said, quit, give me thedrugs, give me the drugs.
Because I was a nervous wreck,But I found the presence because
I didn't guide this guy in anyway. I just listened and sat
with him and he worked throughit, you know.
Lord asked me if he would cometo church. We didn't because his

(11:10):
wife took his car and we calledit her. And so that's how I was
in that situation. So anyway,that was my first taste of it.
And then, I don't know, justdifferent times things came up,
as they do in congregations.
And it just just kind ofdeveloped that way.

T. J. (11:31):
Well, how you discovered your gift certainly was, I mean,
that was quite a trial for thefor the man, but also for you.
So did he follow through? Couldyou actually hear the ejection?

Vernon (11:47):
Yeah, I wouldn't the I wouldn't go to the house by
hadn't heard the bullets go downthere and, and they were in a
different room for where we weregonna be, you know, I didn't
know what to do. Was stupid.Shouldn't have done that. And I
learned that quickly. Learnedhow I should have handled a
situation like that.
But now as a chaplain, I havebeen trained and they do call me

(12:11):
to be in situations like that.But, never in a situation where
there's weapon.

T. J. (12:19):
Vernon Vernon, did you grow up in the church, you know,
as many people do and did in TheUnited States? It was that
something that you and yourfamily did as you were a child?
Let let's let's live there for alittle bit. Those Sure. Those
early years.

Vernon (12:37):
I'm I'm one of those guys that I can truly not
remember a time when I didn'tknow Jesus, even as a little
child. Okay? And it'd beeneasier to write services like
that if I've been a hoodlummeror a druggie or something like
that or had a terriblechildhood, I did my childhood

(12:58):
was is like one of the 50sitcoms. All of those best
things to be were just wasn't asfunny, you know.

T. J. (13:04):
Vernon, there's still time if you want to be a
criminal or a drug dealer ordrug addict, you still have
time.

Vernon (13:11):
With my back and my hips, can't run fast enough. But
had both, you know, bothregional parents, two children
in the family. I was the oldest.And my parents brought me up in
the church. Mother was raised inthe Presbyterian church up north

(13:31):
in Pennsylvania.
Dad grew up of course SouthernBaptist but he he quit going to
Baptist church. He's in a smalltown of Hearne. He always said
he quit going to the Baptistchurch because they wouldn't let
the boys swim at the same timeas the girls. Don't know if
that's true, but that's what healways said.

T. J. (13:47):
Sounds like a good reason. Yeah.

Vernon (13:50):
And, in the town mom came down, they got married and
heard and they didn't have aPresbyterian church, had a
Methodist. So we first weregoing to Methodist church,
baptized as an infant in theMethodist church, but we were
always at church. My parents, mydad had a very strong but quiet

(14:11):
faith and so from him I learnedhow to live a Christian life in
real practical ways. And frommother, I learned to appreciate
the reformed Presbyterian polityand theology from mom. My
parents led youth groups fromthe time I was in junior high
school until the time my sisterwas five years younger than me

(14:32):
graduated from high school.
Tina and I, before we gotmarried, after we left school,
we both led junior high youthgroups. And yeah, got married
when we got transferred toOdessa. I kind of fell away from
the church because we couldn'tfind a church like the one I

(14:53):
grew up in. It was a largesouthern Presbyterian church, it
acted like a small one. All thefolks knew me, was a big youth
group, the folks knew me and Iknew their names a lot like
aunts and uncles, so it was anawesome place to be and I really
grew to appreciate the churchand they pushed me.

(15:16):
I was the youngest deacon atthat church they'd ever had And
then like I said, we wereleading youth group. Was in the
late early 20s when we weredoing that. And so yeah, it was
a Christian family and like Isaid, I don't know a time when I
didn't know Jesus in a verypersonal way.

T. J. (15:37):
And your first career as you were coming up in high
school, entering college, whatdid you want to be?

Vernon (15:51):
Well, wanted to be a musician. Wanted to be a rock
star.

T. J. (15:54):
Can you play any I

Vernon (15:57):
played lead guitar in a bunch of bands and high school
and disciplined in college. AndI was in the first music major
and all that was doing wastraining me to teach and I
didn't want to teach. And so Ichanged my major to business
major with a music minor andthen I switched to business

(16:20):
management and then I quitschool. And then after I'd gone
to work at Elmira Chapel andfelt the call to ministry, had
to finish up my bachelor'sdegree and go to seminary. So I
went to Bethel for one year and,ended up being with a major in
religion with a minor inbusiness.
All right. And a whole lot ofmusic electives, you know. So

T. J. (16:41):
Yeah, let's talk about the music. So, you were in a
couple bands. What kind of musicdid you play?

Vernon (16:47):
Oh, classic rock and blues. At the time it wasn't
classic. It was the currentrock. Later on my boys and I,
when we were here at Oak RidgePastor and I, and we started in
Fort Worth, my boys and I, alongwith one of the elders that grew
up in in Oak Ridge 1stCumberland, he was our bass
player. We we had a classic rockand blues band and we would play

(17:11):
sounds funny for a minister tosay, we play clubs every Friday
and Saturday night and we playedchurch on Sunday.
By the time Sunday came aroundwe were warmed up and it was
really interesting. It was aselfish thing because I really
enjoyed playing. But when Iplayed in these places everybody

(17:32):
knew I was a minister in theseclubs and I would talk to people
that probably most ministersdidn't have an opportunity to
do. And so yeah, use it.Everything I do I try to use
some form of ministry, I guess,and just letting people know

(17:53):
about Christ in some way, if notverbally and through actions and
stuff.

T. J. (17:59):
What do you enjoy playing, in terms of not just
the guitar, but, music wise,classic rock? Is there a band
that you is there a particularsong that you like?

Vernon (18:13):
Well, was always big on the garage top bands. Grand Funk
Railroad, I guess is one of myfavorites. The Who, of course.
Cheap Trick was always a funband to watch. And it really
went to all gambits of rock.

(18:34):
And I even grew a really goodappreciation for some of the
classic music players, you know,Von Melon and Buddy Guy, just a
whole lot of the real bluesmen.Yeah. BB King, one of the first
concerts Tina and I went to whenwe were dating was to see BB

(18:54):
King and that was before he gotreally well known with all
people. You know, it waspredominantly a black concert
and we were there, you know, andloved it. It was just so
awesome.
So yeah, I'm pretty open tothat.

T. J. (19:14):
Do you sing as well?

Vernon (19:17):
In early days, I did not because I'm so good, but because
no one else wanted to sing withthe band with my boys. My oldest
son was the main singer. Okay.And I just sang back up and
there were a few songs I sang,sang lead on, sang some lead on
the bad company and, and grandfunk songs. Anyway, yeah.

T. J. (19:40):
Did you have long hair back when you were a kid?

Vernon (19:43):
You know, it's funny thing as a kid, our school, we
had dress code and we couldn'tlet you get long and my parents
wouldn't allow me to. And as ajoke one time my mother had a
wig, she put it on me. I lookedin the mirror, I looked just
like my aunt Elmer.

T. J. (20:02):
That would probably be enough to dissuade you from
having long hair.

Vernon (20:06):
In college, I had longer hair. It's kinda down down low
my ears and and, down myshoulder, but I never got real
real crazy with it.

T. J. (20:19):
What message would you have for somebody who is
listening to this podcast or oris early in their in their
faith, their Christian faith,and and hear here, Vernon, here,
this minister who plays in rockbands and is a minister and

(20:40):
rides a motorcycle and and, youknow, all all these various
things. Yeah. A lot of timespeople think of the Christian
faith is straight and narrow.You know, you you look a certain
way, you look a certain part,you act a certain way, you even
dress a certain way, especiallyfor Protestant ministers. I

(21:03):
would say that you break thatmold.
But what would you say tosomeone who's like, well, wait,
no, I can't. I can't enjoy LedZeppelin and be a Christian.

Vernon (21:19):
Well, I was the musician. I was motorcycle
rider. I was a father, ahusband, before God called me
into ministry. And he called meas I was. And the things that I

(21:41):
felt like I needed to change, Idid.
But, you know, I used thosethings to whether I'm riding a
motorcycle, whether I wasplaying in bands, people knew my
faith. I never wanted to makeGod ashamed of me, you know. And

(22:09):
so I would live my life that wayand through my music, like I
said, I met people that mostministries didn't have time to
be with. On a motorcycle. I'm achaplain for a law enforcement
motorcycle group and so I use myfaith there.

(22:32):
And even on secular rides, know,I always ask, hey, if we're
getting ready to take off, canwe have a prayer first? You
know, I'd be glad to offer one.Because it's a place you really
need when you go to motor car.And so, you know, I'm not overly
showy with my religion, youknow, as you see me, as you have

(22:59):
seen me and to be working on it,that's me. I'm not much
different in the pulpit.
So, you know, I just thoughtthat God called me that way. He
called me was a sales and salesmanagement for inner ministry.
So I've done a lot of secularwork, been around a lot of
people, been around a lot ofjokes and talks and things like

(23:22):
that. And I just don't let mylife be compromised and I won't
ever do anything that would makethe church members ashamed of
me.

T. J. (23:36):
It's pretty easy as a minister, and probably as a
Christian as general, as you getdeeper into your faith, the
people that you're around willshare the same or very similar
beliefs, and and you almostbecome in a bubble where you
come very isolated, in ininteractions with people who may

(24:01):
not be faith connected at all ormaybe of another religion. And
that's why I was curious inasking you that question is
being able to to be comfortableand also put yourself in places
to where you get to be your selfand also share your faith in

(24:22):
ways that are genuine andcomfortable for you.

Vernon (24:28):
I find that very easy. Matter of fact, I probably enjoy
hanging out with just what youmight call just normal people
more than I do people who arelike ministers and things like
that. One of the things I did tothe bands we had here, we played
a lot of gigs with this oneother local band and even had

(24:51):
articles in the newspaperwritten about the two bands
because we had two brothers ofthe father in our band and we,
you know, this other band hadtwo brothers and the drummer was
a neat lady she's passed downbut she was just a really neat
lady who had been raised in thePCA but she was gay and she got

(25:11):
kicked out of the churchbasically and wasn't comfortable
with it and of course she knew Iwas a minister and we would talk
and we would talk and shestarted introducing me to her
friends and this was here at OakRidge and so I had a little
circle of gay women, lesbians,that would call me when they

(25:36):
needed to go to. They knew mystance on homosexuality. It's
the same stance that ourdenomination has officially,
that homosexuality is not apleasing lifestyle to God and
it's a sinful lifestyle And theyknew that but they could trust

(25:58):
me.
And I think that that's veryimportant. And I also learned
really on this little storyabout how people, if you don't
watch out, they can rub off onyou. I learned this, I guess I
was probably 15 years old, and Iwas hanging out with one of my

(26:22):
double first cousins and acouple of his friends, and we
were talking like satyrs. I knowwe probably make satyrs blush,
and all weekend long and Ireally didn't see my parents
much and we're driving back fromBeaumont to San Antonio and I'm
in the backseat. Dad's trying tomake me aware of traffic because
I'm starting to learn to driveand that kind of bit and he
said, hey can I move over?
So, that damn Ford goes by, Isaid, oh, wow. And my sister

(26:46):
laughed and my mom's ears turnedred and dad just glanced at me
in the rearview mirror and wesat almost all the way from
Beaumont to San Antonio insolids, you know. One word. For
one word. For one word.
And, and, know, I learned reallyquick, you know, you really got
to be careful who you hang outwith him. You got to make sure

(27:07):
that you're the influence, notthem.

T. J. (27:09):
And

Vernon (27:10):
so that's kind of how I live.

T. J. (27:13):
Well, who's rubbing off on who in this conversation? I
don't know. Alright. You weretelling me about your calling in
the ministry wasn't immediate.So you were an adult, finished

(27:35):
up school, married.
Kinda walk me through that thatpart of your journey.

Vernon (27:41):
Okay, well

T. J. (27:44):
Because what's wrong with just being a Christian and
serving in the local church?

Vernon (27:48):
Well, I tried that. I tried that. I got, well, I got
transferred to Longview, Texasby a company I went to work for.
I went to work for the samecompany my dad was with, as a
paint salesman, factory rep. AndI had my choice of living in

(28:10):
either Lufkin, Tyler orLongview.
And so I'm with my boss firstweek of work, we're trying to
find where I'm going to live andwe just had our first child. And
so Tina and our baby were doingOdessa and we're going through
these and I really like Lufkin,but it was a small German town
and I really liked it, butreally couldn't find the right

(28:32):
place to live and it was alittle bit small for Tina. We
went to Todder, man I reallyliked Tyler's. It had everything
we could want but I couldn't,didn't find the place I wanted
to be at. And so we went toLongview and everything clicked.
I really liked Longview. Found aplace we wanted to be right away

(28:54):
and so we moved. Okay, well Ihad a paint customer there in
Longview and he knew my parentsfrom some company promotional
things that he knew I wasPresbyterian, he was Church of
Christ, and I was in the storeone day when a lady that he knew

(29:16):
went to Elmira Chapel, was inthe store there and he
introduced me and it was a nicevisit. Next thing I know he had
sick Bill Rollins who was thepastor at that time on me. He
came and knocked on our door atdinnertime and came in and
talked and I liked him rightaway.
And so we went and visited thechurch. I really liked the

(29:38):
church. They getting ready tohave a big growth spurt of young
people and they were youngcouples our age there with
little children and we joinedand felt really at home. Tina
and I started working with thejunior high youth group and we
were having a good time. Andthen we had our second child,

(29:58):
well we had our second childright as I went to work for the
church, And it was just tough onTina, you know, with the little
kids.
So she kind of dropped out and Iwas doing the youth work by
myself.

T. J. (30:12):
Let me interrupt me interrupt you at this point. So
you began you become well, firstof all, let me go back a little
bit. It was a church Christ thatintroduced you or made it happen
that you got introduced to theCumberland Presbyterian Church.

Vernon (30:28):
Yeah. Yeah.

T. J. (30:30):
Okay. That's pretty cool. That's a new one on me. That's
one I hadn't heard before. Sothank you, Church Christ, for
Vernon, for that man that madethe connection.
And you said that you wereworking at Elmira Chapel. It's a
Cumberland Presbyterian Churchin Longview, and you were on

(30:51):
staff. Now were you still doingyour paint business, working for
the paint No,

Vernon (30:58):
we were getting ready to go on a retreat and I was
supposed be in his leadership.Bill was going to be there, but
he wouldn't tell me what hewanted to do. And I was right at
that point because I was stilltraveling and didn't feel like I
had enough time to really giveit to the youth group. I really
was getting ready to resign, andhe wouldn't tell me what part of

(31:21):
the retreat I was supposed todo. He said, Oh, you'll go when
the time comes.
I'm just saying, Oh, I don'twork that way. But we went on
this retreat and I just feltthis peace about it. Everything
worked out. We worked so welltogether. Everything really
worked out well.
I felt called to ministryearlier in life and was able to
pass it off by working in thechurch and doing, you know, all

(31:44):
the things that church membersdo and being real active. I
said, that's enough. But at thatpoint, it just really felt like,
man, this is something we'redoing. Right before that
retreat, he did a crazy thing.We were in the office and he
said we're getting rid of hiringstaff person.
We've never had a staff personhere before and I want you to

(32:07):
see the job description. He gaveme this legal sized paper,
single spaced, double sided,just full of all this stuff and
I read it real quickly and Isaid, that's crazy. We're not
gonna pay this guy. He told me,I said, that's even more stupid.
And I exactly said, anyone whotake a job like this would be

(32:30):
stupid.
And it was quiet and I thoughtwell it's time to leave. All of
she said have you ever thoughtabout doing something like this?
Do I look stupid? But we startedafter that retreat I just played
on my mind so much and I wastaking such a big cut in sorry
if I did something like that.But we started, hey, know, if we

(32:52):
stop this, don't do that, don'tdo this, we might be able to
make it.
And we were really wrong. Wereally made way less than what I
needed to, but God showed us theway. I ended up I was the
executive assistant to thepastor. I mean, I was a DRE, the
youth leader, did ministerialthings when Bill wasn't aware

(33:18):
of. I guess if the janitordidn't show up, I expected to do
the floors, you know.
But they added on that, to giveme some more blame, I became the
church treasurer and purchasingagent. And I worked myself to
death at that job, but I reallyenjoyed it. The bad thing was I
was working so hard I didn'tkind of form a family. And so we

(33:38):
finally decided to go back toschool, sold everything, moved
to Mackenzie, and I had time tobe a father and husband again,
almost full time. And that'swhere I really began to get my
priorities straight on what Godwanted me to do and what I
needed to do for my family.

(34:00):
It was a terrible yearfinancially, but it was an
awesome year spiritually and agrowth for the family. By that
time we had three children, youknow.

T. J. (34:09):
Oh, wow. I was about to ask you. So you you made this
you and Tina made this sacrificefor you to be on staff at Elmira
Chapel in Longview. And, youknow, a pay cut. You had two
small children, then three

Vernon (34:29):
This small

T. J. (34:31):
is like the exact opposite in the way that people
are raised or taught how to makedecisions or encouraged how to
make decisions. You are goingagainst the grain to ultimately
respond to a call to ministry.On the outside looking in, it

(34:55):
looks it doesn't look right.

Vernon (34:56):
It was terrible. I fought it all the way. I wanted
to do some correspondence courseto finish up my bachelor's
degree and even do seminarybecause we had some bland there.
We enjoyed where we were. And mycommittee on the Maritia
wouldn't allow me.
They said, No, you've to go toseminary.

T. J. (35:11):
Yeah. So on top of that, you move from because I
interrupted you again.

Vernon (35:15):
That's

T. J. (35:15):
right. You move from Longview, Texas to McKenzie,
Tennessee, Bethel College, nowBethel University. So not only
do you take a pay cut, serve ata church, do all these practical
and even theological stuffwithin the local church, then
you pick up your family, youryoung family and relocate. I

(35:38):
need to meet your wife. She mustbe as calm as you are.

Vernon (35:43):
Actually, she was raised Jewish. She's made a very good
covenant Presbyterian. When wegot to Mackenzie, one week after
we got there, my daughter turnedone. Wow. And my oldest son
started kindergarten inMackenzie.
So that's how young our familywas. And, being in a small town

(36:08):
like that, it didn't pay forbecause the child childcare,
Tina couldn't work, you know,and so I just make a part time
salary. But the Presbyterybought my books and Bethel gave
me a full ride. All I was reallyresponsible for was my living
expenses. God was really good.

(36:33):
There was one farmer that BobRutledge went to, had never
given anything to the collegebefore. Said, hey, there's a
young ministerial student thatneeds help. And he got a
scholarship from me from thisguy, you know. Wow. And so
everything just worked together.
I, you know, it wasn't me. Iwent kicking and screaming but

(36:55):
God just kept opening doors andgave me the will to walk
through.

T. J. (37:03):
And you were allowed to be a student and a father and a
husband. Because if you hadstayed at Elmira, well, who
knows what it would have lookedlike. Yeah. Yeah. Well, how long

(37:23):
did it take you?
Let me rephrase my questionbefore I finish it. How long did
you live in Mackenzie?

Vernon (37:32):
We were there just one year.

T. J. (37:34):
That's all you needed.

Vernon (37:36):
I've graduated and I thought about maybe commuting to
Memphis, but I didn't reallywant to. Doctor. Bill Ingram
came to the office there. I'dmet him once or twice before. He
was the moderator of BolivarCumberland Presbyterian Church

(37:59):
and he went to see Bob Prosserwho was my boss and they called
me down to Bob's office and Billintroduced himself to me and I
said well I've met you beforeand you don't remember me and we
talked and anyway he said heyI've got to preach I've been
preaching there at Bolivar but Igot to go to another church this

(38:21):
coming Sunday.
Will you fill in for me? I said,sure be glad to, you know, and
he told me a little bit and hesaid, by the way this is a trial
sermon. And that was a church Ireally wanted to try to get
ahold of him because that wasthat church at that time was
known to be just an awesomeplace for student pastors. And

(38:43):
so I commuted the 60 miles toseminary from Bolivar. Okay.
And they were such a greatcongregation for my family and
me. We had a mantle andeverything. I didn't talk, I was
making $1,000 a month and all Ihad to do was pay for utilities,
you know, so it was a good life.

T. J. (39:03):
I just drove through Bolivar. Think it was last week,
maybe the week before. It looksthe same.

Vernon (39:11):
I'm sure it does. Last time I went through there,
hadn't changed. The church isnot doing very well. But we had
two building programs while Iwas there. We built a fellowship
hall, we built parking lots, wewere having a good time there.
Was a fun church to be at.

T. J. (39:30):
So at this point in your faith journey, you you had a
path and a plan pretty wellcarved out. So you're both feet
in as a student, and thenserving as a stated supply in a
Cumberland Presbyterian churchnot far outside of Memphis. You

(39:53):
had the future before you.

Vernon (39:58):
Yeah. It was a tough tough time too. My senior year
in seminary my mother died. Shegot sick. She'd come up to
Mackenzie for my graduation andshe got sick at that point and
took two and a half years shewas ill and passed while I was

(40:18):
at seminary.
And so I was really kind ofreally wanting to get back to
Texas and we were getting out ofthe clear, the shallow church
contacted me and we went downthere to do a trial sermon and
came back to Bolivar with a callThey gave me the call at that

(40:40):
point before we left town and wemoved to Shiloh and there I was
back in Texas.

T. J. (40:48):
How long were you at the Shiloh church? And also give for
those that are listening, Shilohis outside of Dallas.

Vernon (40:57):
Dallas is the town is actually it's in Ovilo, but it's
called Mithlothian becausethat's zip code for that. But
Old Villa is a little bit smalltown South of Dallas. A neat
little place. It's where LCWaddle grew up. He was a well

(41:18):
known pastor at Bethel and amatter of fact I pastored his
three sisters when I was at Butyou know we were at Shiloh for
three and a half years and Ishould have stayed longer but I
got called to the Fort WorthChurch Trinity and I was at

(41:42):
Trinity for five years and thatwas a kind of a troubled
ministry.
It started after I got there,didn't know I was walking into
hornet's nest and kind of gotcaught off guard on that but
that's also where Tina went backto school and she became a
nurse. She got her bachelor'sdegree for nursing and so we

(42:05):
were there for five years andthen I went to came up here to
Oak Ridge Church and I was OakRidge for twelve years. I was
the second longest pastor thatthey've had in their history.
Larry Blateburn who's there nowis getting ready to pass me up I
guess before long but and wewere at Oak Ridge for twelve

(42:29):
years and I really kind ofthought I was going to retire
there. Really enjoyed going toOak Ridge Church.
We had a house that we reallyloved and I was really active as
a police chaplain here. And,but, out of the clear, I got
called back to Shiloh Church,whoever goes back, you know,

(42:49):
and,

T. J. (42:50):
Apparently Vernon does.

Vernon (42:52):
Yeah. And, went back to, I was there for thirteen years
and retired, What decided to

T. J. (43:01):
drew you back? It is I mean, it's been done before, but
there's not too many occasionswhere a minister that has served
a congregation actually goesback. So what drew you back?

Vernon (43:17):
Well, that's another story. We I was feeling kind of
complacent. You know, Griggs, Iknew I needed to do something to
spice up my ministry andAdventist Church was they were
way too comfortable as well, youknow. And all churches get that
way, I guess, from time to time.So, we took a vacation down to

(43:37):
Texas.
We were visiting Tina's mom inWaco and took my motorcycle. I
said, Tina, you're visit yourmom and I'm gonna ride and I'm
just gonna talk to God. That'swhere I talked to God. And I was
going back up to Old Villa whereShiloh is because my sister
lives in that little town. Iwent to, I was called to my
first church where lived just amile away from my sister of all

(43:58):
things.
And so I'm going up there tomeet him. I went up early. She
was a school teacher. So I gotthere early in the day and I was
going to visit people that Istill had as friends there from
Shiloh and no one was around. Iwent to the church, no one was
there and everybody who wasalways home, no one was home and

(44:21):
saw him up sitting at theconvenience store there in Old
Villas drinking my diet coke andone of the elder, one of the
members of Shiloh came up and welooked at each other said, I
know you, we've got to talkingand all of sudden he says, hey,
our minister just resigned.
You ready to come back? And Isaid, Oh, yeah, who goes back?

(44:43):
You know. And then I did get ahold of some of the other people
and we had our conversationright in the middle and say,
Hey, our pastor just was down.You ready to come back?
Oh, man. Anyway, I visited mysister and spent the night
there, but I went back to Wacoand I said, Tina, something's
going on. I'm just feeling someweird stuff going on. And so

(45:03):
instead of going to church withher mother on that Sunday, we
went back to Shiloh, went tochurch and everybody, hey, our
pastor just was done. You readyto come back?
And I just said, man, what isgoing on? And then one of the
elders, she had sons about myboys' age and they were kind of
close and we were always realclose as well. She came up to me

(45:25):
and says, hey, I wish we couldgo to lunch with you, but we're
getting rid of a call, we'regetting ready to form a search
committee. Hey, our pastor isright, you ready to come back?
And I said, oh yeah, right.
He looked and said, you know,think we need to talk. I said,
oh no, you know. And so thereyou are, you know, that's what
happened. And it was a goodmove. It really was.

(45:49):
I went back to a church that alot of families in it. I went
there and I already knew whereall the sacred cows were buried
and so I had to go through that.There were a bunch of news folks
there too. And so it was a itwas a good move. I really,
really enjoyed my time there andI thought it was a good time.
I started the chaplaincy programfor the Old Villa Police

(46:12):
Department and then also for theMidlothian Police Department.
And so I just had a lot of neatthings before I found the Blue
Knights, which is a passion ofmine too. That's a law
enforcement motorcycle club. Andit was just a good move. It's a
good move for us.

T. J. (46:32):
Yeah, I was reading through your bio, and it talks
about Blue KnightsInternational. Do you want to
describe that to me? Because Idon't know what it is.

Vernon (46:42):
Yeah, Blue Knights International is a law
enforcement most of our club.It's only open to either current
law enforcement people orretired law enforcement people,
people who had arresting powers.And it started up in Maine in
the 70s. And it's now theworld's largest law enforcement

(47:04):
motorcycle club in a whole bunchof different countries and a lot
of different chapters all over.And I was a member of the Texas
twenty one chapter which isthere out of Waxahachie the
Waxahachie Midlothian area, andjust a great bunch of people,

(47:25):
very family oriented.
We don't try to act like theoutlaw motorcycle clubs, know,
it's just family. We take ourfamily with us on all the
outings and things. Familiesride together. You don't have to
go through any kind ofinitiation thing like a lot of
your clubs have because theyfeel like if you put on a badge

(47:49):
and a gun every day you'vealready paid your dues, know,
and so I have a lot of reallygreat friends well over the
nation from meeting thedifferent things, and when I
moved here to Oak Ridge, Itransferred into Tennessee three
chapter, and then we kind ofsplit up a little bit and came

(48:09):
over to the new chapter, it'sTennessee two. And it is a great
organization and like I said,I'm around cops all the time.
Never wanted to be one, but I'vealways had a heart for cops
because I have a tough go. And Iget a lot of fulfillment out of
it. So it's a selfish thing. Getmore out of it than I put in I'm

(48:31):
sure, but I have a lot of reallygood friends there.

T. J. (48:36):
You have known the Cumberland Presbyterian Church
pretty much your entire adultlife, And you've served at
different capacities, statedclerk, engrossing clerk, pastor,
and in different placesthroughout the denomination.

(48:59):
Taking a bird's eye view,Vernon, what do you think are
some of the greatest gifts, thegreatest strengths of of the
Cumberland Presbyteriandenomination? So you you've got
a platform now to be able to toplug the denomination and let
other people know about it.

Vernon (49:20):
Well, I think one of its great strengths maybe is also
kind of a weakness. And that iswe are small and I think during
the church growth period theyoffended a lot of people by
saying we were almost incestuousbecause everybody's related to
everybody else, you know,because we do have so many

(49:42):
families in the church. Peoplehave been there a long long time
and then we have people like me,the outsiders. I was real
fortunate because I did go toBethel, I did go to our
seminary, I kind of got loggedin a little bit closer to some
of the established comers andPresbyterians. And that really

(50:03):
helps us out a whole lot, Ithink, because we have
communication.
When I was real active in theministry, you know, we had
communication with a lot ofministers, lot of knew what was
going on throughout thedenomination. But that also can
be a weakness because you don'tget innovative much. You keep
doing things the same way.Fathers and sons, you don't do

(50:31):
things better than your dad thatkind of bit, you know. You mimic
your dad.
It's just it's a help but it'salso a hindrance. The other
thing right now that's going onI think is that we have let a
lot of outsiders come in fromother denominations that bring

(50:53):
ideas that aren't quite commonpescatarians because we are
unique. And I can say that Igrew up in the PCUS and before
the merger with the NorthernChurch, I probably could have
gone back and forth prettyeasily, But, you know, actually
the murderer just was a no deal.And I think that we've lost our

(51:22):
brand. Cumberland Fish Trainused to be, you say Cumberland
Fish Train, you knew what thatstood for and you don't really
have that anymore.
We don't have the zeal formission that I think we really
need. As a denomination we'vekind of become complacent. We

(51:45):
have developed factions, verymuch like the outside world and
we shouldn't be reflecting theworld. Should be Christians
known by our love, ignore thatphrase from the music, but we
need to be able to stand firm inour beliefs and be more unified
and we're not unified anymore.

T. J. (52:06):
All right. All right, Vernon, keeping that bird's eye
view that overlook kind oflooking down some of the
weaknesses that you mentioned inplaces that we could be. What
would you recommend to to maybelessen the factions? And you had

(52:27):
me grinning because and and youprefaced it this way. Our
greatest strength is ourgreatest weakness.
So it's almost we talk out of,you know, both sides of our
mouth. I do it as well. Beingable to describe the Cumberland
Presbyterian Church. But withthe bird's eye view looking, you

(52:49):
know, what would be some of thethings to create a brand or
rebrand or recapture a pastbrand? What advice, what counsel
would you offer?

Vernon (53:03):
Well, think one thing is we need to we've let the church
has become the thermometerinstead of the thermostat for
our people. And I think we justtake on what's in the world

(53:25):
right now, you know, and that'swhy we're so divided. Let
ourselves get so polarized, butwhat we're doing, we're worried
about social things rather thangospel things. And you know me
well enough to know I'm not abobble thumper. I'm not what my
dad used to call afundamentalist or anything like

(53:48):
that.
But, you know, we do have thereis right, there is wrong, there
is black, there is white, thereis truth. And I think we in the
pulpit have gotten where wedon't offend anybody. We don't

(54:10):
talk about sin anymore, we wemess just up, you know. We don't
sin, we mess up, and I think wereally need to get back to some
of those truths. But I alsobelieve that you can do so in a
way that will bring peopletogether not drive them away.

(54:34):
It's not what you say, it's howyou say it. And I think we need
to get back to that message ofcomprehension where medium
theology, whosoever will maycome, about Jesus' love and show
that to other people withoutcompromising our core beliefs.

(54:54):
And that's where we go wrong.Think we try to be everything to
everybody. I think we need tonot be afraid to reach out to
groups that we don't think wewould be around.
You know, I did that with theband playing in the bars and
things, you know. I mean, I hada couple ask me to perform a

(55:19):
wedding for them, you know. Ihad a drunk come in one night
say, hey, people say I have adream problem. What do you
think? I said, it's not what Ithink, it's what you think, you
know.
But that's the thing that mostministers wouldn't be around.
We've got to be in the world butnot of the world, I guess is the
key there. And we're so busywanting to not offend anybody.

(55:43):
We're so busy wanting to fit inwith everybody else that we
don't have that identityanymore.

T. J. (55:49):
Well, you've offended me about seven to eight times in
this conversation.

Vernon (55:54):
Oh, sure. Well, we've done nothing well then.

T. J. (56:02):
Vernon, what are you reading right now?

Vernon (56:05):
I'm really not reading much theology because I'm not
having to prepare that manysermons. Did most of my reading
for that. So I can't really giveyou a big long list of books.
There's one that I picked up andI have said I was going to read,
but I haven't gotten startedyet. Can't remember the title of
it, but the premise of it isthat God really doesn't give any

(56:29):
commands.
He just gives suggestions forhow to live. I'm so curious to
see what that looks like.

T. J. (56:36):
Yeah, the title sounds intriguing. Yeah, what is

Vernon (56:39):
Yeah, gotta find it. I was looking for it this morning.
I don't know what I've done withit, but mainly I'm very
pragmatic. I read what I need toread to survive I guess, and so
right now I've been I'm stilllearning the cemetery business,

(57:00):
know. When I first got into it Ithought it was just digging
holes, but it's not whatcemetery is about.
There's so many rules and somany things, there's so many
different products and so manyways that you can help people
and so that's really what mylife is all wound up in that
right now. I'm working for myson and enjoying it. I used to

(57:24):
be in a band with him. I used toholler at him, now he hollers at
me, you know. We have a goodtime, I enjoy seeing him every
day and we work together welland I'm kind of his second and
I'm enjoying it.
I do miss some of the ministry.I do get to do some ministry. I

(57:44):
did more when I was actually inthe family services learning the
business at the very beginning,actually helping people making
arrangements, but I don't dothat anymore. I'm more
coordinator and I do the otherthings if we get in a bind
somewhere because I can do them,but it's, I still see it as a
ministry helping, helping peopleon the hardest day of their

(58:06):
lives, you know, when they'velost a loved one. Yeah.
None of that

T. J. (58:09):
sounds like retirement to me.

Vernon (58:11):
It's not retirement. Everybody says you're retired.
I'm not working. Sometimes Ithink I work harder now than I
did as a pastor. I thought Iworked pretty hard as a pastor.
And

T. J. (58:22):
This is a silly question. But does a director of
operations at a memorial park,Does he or she have to wear a
suit? Do you have to wear asuit?

Vernon (58:35):
No, I do wear dress pants and a shirt like this I'm
wearing right now. I didn'tchange after I got to came home
from work. If I'm going beworking outside, don't do it
very often, but I'll put mygrubbies on.

T. J. (58:50):
Okay.

Vernon (58:51):
It's a big change because my last pastor, I wore
blue jeans every weekday andblack jeans with a coat on
Sunday, you know. Of course inTexas that's that's formal, semi
formal anyway. But I'm gonna beworking on a trailer this Friday

(59:11):
so I'll be in my ribs now, I'llfeel at home, but I oversee a
crew of four who take care ofall the grounds. We have 60
acres that are improved, we haveanother 60 acres we haven't
touched yet, and I coordinatewhat's going on outside with
what's going on inside, makesure, you know, I do all the
purchasing and figure out howwe're going to fix stuff, and we

(59:35):
need new equipment, I'm the onethat procures it. I just kind of
do anything that's needed, know,and I'm enjoying it.
I really am.

T. J. (59:47):
Alright, here's the other burning question. Vernon, are
you a Texan or a Tennessean?

Vernon (59:54):
There's no I'm a Texan living in exile. And it's a
weird thing. I've moved toTennessee three times. Go figure
that one out. Right.
But, I imagine I'm gonna beburied here in Tennessee because
I I I just refuse to move again.If I have to move, I'm gonna
burn the house down. I'm notpacking up again. I've moved too
many times in my life.

T. J. (01:00:15):
In terms of years with Texas and Tennessee, how does it
measure up?

Vernon (01:00:25):
Pretty close to half and half. It's getting heavier on
the Tennessee side now. More ofa Texan. Tina and I are both
native Texans, but I'm more of aTexan than she is. She really
loves Tennessee.
And I do like the weather. I'llgive you that. But, I don't know
it's just something about Texas,you know.

T. J. (01:00:46):
And there's something about Tennessee. Otherwise you
wouldn't live in Tennessee.

Vernon (01:00:53):
Well, this is where God wants me. Know, been good to me.
I enjoyed West Tennessee. It wasmore like East Texas and I
really like Oak Ridge area,Knoxville. And so yeah, it's
been good for us.

T. J. (01:01:13):
Well, Vernon, is there anything that you want to talk
about that we didn't cover?

Vernon (01:01:19):
Not really. Think you got covered most of my life
except my young childhood, youknow, so yeah, we've done most
everything. The main thing,think, like I said, God has just
always provided it. I've beenalong for the ride. It's been so
funny.

(01:01:40):
When we first were talking aboutmoving, going back to school,
was so against it and mycommittee kept saying, you know,
it's the only way you're goingbe ordained, you got to do it.
And so I put some conditions onGod. Don't know if you've ever
done it or not. Know, said,well, if I can sell mine, and
nothing was done at that time inLongview, so if I can sell my

(01:02:02):
house and find a job there or goto school work out the money,
I'll go. And so first thing Idid since things weren't set,
went ahead, we put the house onthe market and within a week it
sold and so my gosh, I had tomove Tina and the kids down to

(01:02:25):
from my parents in San Antonioand I got a bachelor pad because
I had to work through the sermoncommitments for the sermon there
at Elmont Chapel and then wewent up to Mackenzie.
I didn't have a job. I'd writtento all the pastors in West
Tennessee Presbytery, didn't getany answers back, and so Tina

(01:02:47):
had never been to McKenzie, sowe drove up to McKenzie and I go
in the biggest church there isfirst Cumberland of Mackenzie,
Bob Price was pastor, and Iwalked in and handed my resume
and already mailed to him andintroduced myself and we talked
to Wyatt and he said, whatbrought you here today? Well,
looking for a job. I gotta havesomething. I'd rather work for a

(01:03:07):
church, I'll do check work.
I'll do anything, but we're, youknow, I gotta move this summer,
the end of the summer, come upto school. What brought you
here? You know, nobody answeredmy letters. I'm here drumming up
a job. He said, you know, it'sreal funny, but we just voted
the session to hire a youthdirector.

(01:03:28):
We haven't done that before. Hesaid, so who sent you here? And
I said, you'll be here rightthere. We're gonna be staying at
the McKenzie Hilton, a littlehotel there for the night, and
we'll be there. So, well, youmight get a phone call.
Well I stayed up there and hadmy contacts at the time. I still

(01:03:51):
had my contacts in my eyesgetting blurry and hair was
greasy from the day out visitingaround Tina was kind of halfway
dozing and laying on the top ofthe bed, the made up bed, when
all of sudden there was a knockon the door. And here was the
whole blooming committee of mostelders and they come into the

(01:04:13):
room and and they're sitting onthe bed, they're sitting on the
air conditioning unit, they'resitting on the desk everywhere
else, all these people in myroom and we interviewed and I
got hired on the spot. So yeah,I've been led, you know, it's
just how my life has been.

T. J. (01:04:29):
You're telling me that you got a job before you
returned back to Texas. What?You got a job at McKinsey before
you even returned back to Texas.

Vernon (01:04:41):
Yeah. Wow. Yeah. And we had scheduled a move and a
member of the church had a housefor rent right across the street
from the funeral home there, andjust a few blocks from college.
Yeah, life was good.
The funny thing is my brotherknew that I would never ask for

(01:05:04):
money. And we, our church, sincewe had a secretary there, the
only church that really had analmost full time secretary, the
church was open, the churchesgot together, had a food bank,
but it was kept there at theMcKenzie church, and one of the
things I did was I was supposedto give out food when people

(01:05:25):
needed it. Well, we would get, Imean, we, it would get, it would
get tight, and before we left,like I said, mother knew we
wouldn't ask for money. And soshe gave me these stuff
cellophane, cubes of soup stock,know, had no meat in it, it was
like barley soup and that kindof bit. Yeah.

(01:05:47):
And she said, don't ever eat it,just keep it until you really
need it. I said, okay, fine. Andwe would get to the point where
I'd go to class and kids said,well, it looks like we're gonna
eat some of mother's souptonight. So I'd go off to
school. Every day, every timethat happened, it happened a few

(01:06:07):
times, I'd either get ananonymous check through the
church in Longview, never knewwho gave it, for like $100, or,
and we never told anybody wewere hungry, I wouldn't take any
of the food from the church,there would be sacks of food
left on our doorsteps everytime, and so we never had to use

(01:06:29):
mom's stoops.
Well after that year was up Iwent to Bolivar and we were in
tall cotton, like I said I wasmaking a thousand dollars a
month, had a mantz, and you knowwe had to watch your pennies,
but life was good and I didn'teven think about mom's dudes.
Well, after I graduated, gotcalled to the Shiloh Church,

(01:06:52):
Tina was unpacking all the stufffor the kitchen and the people
that moved us, they just packedeverything up for us. So she's
unpacking, she comes acrossmom's soup. She said, you know,
we've made it through all this,never had to use mom's soup, I
think we need to celebrate andhave mom's soup for the night.

(01:07:13):
That sounds good.
Then when I opened up all ofthem had weevils, they weren't
useful anymore. They always kindlike my manna. As long as we
needed it, it was there, butonce we didn't need it, you
know, it was gone. God hasprovided for us all through this
whole adventure. You know, Idon't worry.

(01:07:35):
I worry more than my mother. Mymother couldn't worry about
anything. She had such greatfaith, but I'm not there quite,
you know, I have concerns, but Ijust don't worry about things
because I always know God'sgonna get me through it, and
God's pretty faithful.

T. J. (01:07:53):
Yeah. Sounds like, you've been you

Vernon (01:07:57):
and

T. J. (01:07:57):
your family have been blessed. And Vernon, it's been a
blessing to to hear your faithjourney and to call you a
friend.

Vernon (01:08:07):
Oh, thank you.

T. J. (01:08:08):
Got to know each other pretty well in the last year or
so and serving in differentcommittees and capacities. And I
really appreciate you sittingdown and sharing your time with
me. Really do.

Vernon (01:08:24):
It's been a pleasure.

T. J. (01:08:26):
Thank you, Vernon.
Thanks for listening to my faithconversation with Vernon. In
reflecting back on the topicsthat we discussed, I'm reminded
about God's providence. Inclosing, let me share from the
Confession of Faith forCumberland Presbyterians in

(01:08:48):
sections one fourteen and onefifteen. God ordinarily
exercises providence through theevents of nature and history,
using such instruments aspersons, laws, and the
Scriptures, yet remains free towork with them or above them.

(01:09:12):
The whole creation remains opento God's direct activity. The
purpose of God's providence isthat the whole creation be set
free from its bondage to sin anddeath and be renewed in Jesus
Christ. Thanks for listening.