July 15, 2025 • 73 mins
Pastor Emeritus William H. (Bill) Montague served Mt. Tabor Church Cumberland Presbyterian Church in America from the spring of 2002 until the September Presbytery of 2011 where he asked to be relieved of duties because of an on-going illness. He was born in Fayetteville, North Carolina in 1943 and came to Tennessee in 1961 to attend Knoxville College (PCUSA). From birth to 1969 he was a member of Haymount United Presbyterian Church in Fayetteville, NC. He completed high school at Boggs Academy in Keysville, Georgia which was owned and operated by the Presbyterian Church United States of America. While enrolled at Knoxville College he served as a lay-minister to New Market Presbyterian Church. Upon graduation from college in 1966, he chose to delay seminary and went to work as an Assistant District Scout Executive for Boy Scouts of America-New York City. After 6 months he was drafted into the United States Army and served as an Instructor for Special Purpose Equipment and Vehicles at Fort Lee, VA until deployment to Vietnam in 1969. Upon returning from Vietnam, he came to Jackson, TN as a Police Officer, later joining Mother Liberty C.M.E. Church and answered the “call” to the ministry. In 1973 he was ordained and assigned churches in Hardeman County.TN. By 1976 he had completed graduate school and was assigned to churches across the state until 2002 when he asked to go on “Leave of Absence” status to come to the Cumberland Presbyterian Church in America as Pastor at Mt Tabor. Pastor Montague had a dual career as a bio-vocational minister along with 30+ years of duty as a Correctional Professional (teacher, Principal, Deputy Warden, Jail Administrator, and Prison Operations Administrator). He was married to Jacque Carolyn Cole until her death. They have five children. He has been married to Deborah Montague since 1996. In 2005 he completed Seminary at Memphis Theological Seminary with a Master’s of Divinity degree.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
T. J. (00:02):
Welcome to the Cumberland Road. I'm your host TJ
Malinoski. The following is thefaith journey of Reverend
Doctor. William Montague. He isthe pastor emeritus at Mount
Tabor Cumberland PresbyterianChurch in America in Jackson,
(00:24):
Tennessee. Doctor Montague hascombined multiple lifetimes in
just a mere eighty two years. Heis a minister. He has worked on
a railroad dining car while incollege. Instructor for special
purpose equipment and vehiclesfor the United States Army.
(00:48):
Assistant District ScoutExecutive for the Boy Scouts of
America in Brooklyn, New York.He was a prison deputy warden, a
prison teacher, a prisonprincipal, jail administrator,
and prison operationsadministrator, and probably
(01:11):
much, much more than I know of.We recorded this conversation in
Doctor. Montague's office. Andwith my inexperience, I
unknowingly had the microphonesrunning hot, meaning the gain
was too high. This makes part ofour conversation crackle and
(01:36):
pop. I tried to rectify this inediting, but for those who
aren't, for those who are in theknow, once that crackle and pop
is there, it isn't coming out.So for the suboptimal recording,
I apologize and will continue tostrive to improve with every
(01:58):
faith conversation I have.Anyway, here is my faith
conversation with ReverendDoctor. William Montague.
Can you recall your earliestencounter with god where god
(02:19):
just was sort of on your radarfor the first time?
William (02:23):
I think my earliest encounter with god would be as a
child. I grew up in a householdof old Presbyterians in North
Carolina, primarily mygrandfather, my paternal
(02:45):
grandfather, my grandmother, mymother. My father was deceased
by the way, and he happened tohave been a Presbyterian USA
minister who had graduated fromLincoln University in
(03:08):
Pennsylvania. And he died earlybefore I was born in his
thirties. So the encounter withGod came from a knowledge of him
and a knowledge of talking withthe people in the neighborhood
(03:30):
and my parents and god andgrandparents.
I think I also encountered godin my daily activities of
playing. I realized that therehad to be a special being in my
life who loved me based on whatI saw around me in terms of the
(03:57):
natural environment with the sunshining. I can always remember
sunshiny days growing up in inNorth Carolina, Fayetteville,
North Carolina. And they justthey're very pleasant
environment. Also, I would haveto look at the way that I was
(04:18):
related to by the neighbors andthe other people.
They treated me nice as a child.
T. J. (04:24):
Let's talk more about your childhood. What was it like
growing up in Fayetteville,North Carolina?
William (04:31):
Growing up in Fayetteville, North Carolina
during the '19 the late nineteenforties into the fifties and on
into the sixties was arelatively pleasant experience.
Unfortunately, those were thedays of segregation in The
(04:52):
United States and all over. Butwe as African Americans, black
people, or colored people thatwe were called at the time were
acclimated into this. So we justwe just simply accepted this as
another part of the reality, notreally expecting anything to
(05:15):
change. However, people werepeople and they were nice.
T. J. (05:20):
When you were a kid growing up, what did you dream
about becoming?
William (05:29):
Oh, a lot of things I dreamed about becoming. One of
the things I dreamed aboutbecoming was a minister, and
that's something I had to sortout. And that might have been
because of the influences of mygrandparents and my neighbors.
(05:51):
The idea back then was if ifyour father was a professional
or whatever, that's what youwould be.
T. J. (06:01):
Alright.
William (06:02):
And considering that my father was a minister, the
conversation generally wentsomething like this. Your daddy
was a preacher. He was a finepreacher. You're going to be a
preacher, aren't you? Well, Idon't know.
Maybe I will. But if you'regoing to be a preacher and
(06:23):
especially a Presbyterianpreacher, remember one thing,
you're going to have to go toschool which is fine. Mhmm.
That's that's what I knew wellahead to do. It's always been a
part of my life.
Mhmm.
T. J. (06:36):
Yeah, since I've known you, you've highly valued
education. Yes, I did.
William (06:45):
I also took on an interest in reading when I was
young. As a matter of fact, I mysister and I probably read every
book in the little library thatwe had in the community. It was
a little two room library,possibly about as big as this
cabin. Little two room librarydowntown in the on the one of
(07:09):
the main streets inFayetteville, and it was
upstairs. And we would probablystop in there every day coming
from school, and then on theweekends and so forth, we would
check our books and take themhome and read them along with
what my neighbors gave me.
T. J. (07:26):
What were some of your favorite books coming up of age
that you still recall?
William (07:35):
That's kind of hard. I'll use the Huckleberry Finn
stories and the Tom Sawyers andall of that. Yeah. But there
were several others. I was alsoencouraged to look for black
office.
And interestingly enough, therewas a right across the street
from me in Fayetteville onGillespie Street was the home of
(07:59):
an an author, an AfricanAmerican author named Charles
Waddell Chestnut. His sisterswould and the other neighbors
too would constantly encourageme to read and they were always
giving me books to read.
T. J. (08:15):
Okay. That's not bad.
William (08:17):
Of course, now, some of these books were a little bit
out of my range but I triedanyway.
T. J. (08:25):
Tell me how important growing up the life of the
church was for you. You know, inthis day and age, you know,
church is seen as an option ormaybe it's not even an option
anymore. It's just not onpeople's radar but I know for a
lot of families, church wasintegral to their weekly
(08:49):
activities.
William (08:50):
The church was very important to me. As a matter of
fact, right on the little streetwhere I lived was a little
Methodist church. It was calledMaddox Memorial AME Zion Church.
That was right on the street.And as a child from the time
that I was little, I was able towalk.
(09:12):
I was encouraged and trained towalk down to Maddox on Sunday
morning for Sunday school andlater on stay for church. But
when I became of age such as theage of 12, 13, 14, where I could
walk on downtown by myself, Iwas encouraged to go through the
family's church, which wasHaymount Presbyterian Church,
(09:33):
USA. That was an amazing unusualexperience in that. I think the
folks kind of catered to me alittle bit because of my father
being a former Presbyterianminister.
T. J. (09:51):
What kind of things did they do to sort of cater or
favor you?
William (09:57):
Well, one example was like being being elected to go
to summer camp.
T. J. (10:02):
Okay.
William (10:03):
And the church took care of it. One of one of one
another example was beingselected for certain positions
in the youth fellowship such asbeing an usher, singing in the
young people's choir, littlespeaking engagements all the
time. All all the time withplays and all that.
T. J. (10:27):
During your teenage years, how well did your faith
carry over into the otheraspects of your life? I mean,
did you have faith conversationswhen you were in school or when
you were outdoors or in othersettings in the town or or were
those considered kind of likeseparate things?
William (10:48):
No, it was always a part. I remember. It's some
interesting that you should askthat. I remember once you're
getting into a fight withanother little felon, I don't
know why.
T. J. (10:59):
How old were you?
William (11:00):
Oh, maybe 14, 13. I don't know. Mhmm. But I remember
one of the persons yelling fromthe sideline, Howard, and I was
called Howard then after myfather, my deceased father,
Howard Montague. That was myfull name as they called my full
name, William Howard MontagueJunior.
(11:21):
But I was always addressed asHoward. Alright. But I remember
this young lady yelling out fromthe sidelines, Howard, you know
better than that. You know,somebody's fighting. Your
grandma and granddaddy taughtyou better than that, whatever.
You know?
T. J. (11:36):
Well, that wasn't helping you win the fight. No.
William (11:38):
It was not. But it was good because I can remember it
was very convenient because Ihad a I had a metal swagger
stick. I don't know if you everseen one of these military
swagger sticks.
T. J. (11:54):
No. Like for a horse or?
William (11:56):
No. We were located close to Fort Bragg.
T. J. (12:01):
Okay.
William (12:01):
And so some of the little stores out in the city
sold military memorabilia andjump whatever, but I remember
this little swagger stick wasmade of one end was the butt end
of a 50 caliber shell, and thethe blunt point was actual
(12:24):
actual shell, and it wasattached to a metal rod in the
center. Actually, it could'vehurt you if you hit somebody
with it.
T. J. (12:32):
So you're carrying this around?
William (12:34):
I don't know why, but I was carrying the swagger stick
around, and I got into a fightand almost used it on the guy's
head, which would have beendisastrous. But I remember
getting into this fight, Iremember this young lady yelling
from the sidelines, Howard, youdon't need to be doing this. You
know, your grandparents wouldn'tlike it. You're not supposed to
(12:55):
do. Yeah.
And then they said, you're gonnabe a preacher. Yeah. Okay.
T. J. (13:01):
It's funny that that's what you recall in a fist fight
because normally, I think of thefist fights that I was in. I
don't remember the what washappening around me. I just
remember that, that moment andwho I fought and who won and who
lost. And, but you remembersomeone calling out early on
(13:25):
early on, hey, this is not you.
William (13:27):
Yeah. This is not you. Right. Yeah.
T. J. (13:33):
Well, after you graduated high school
William (13:35):
Well, that's another thing. My high school experience
in Fayetteville was withelementary, junior high, and
part of the high school. But inthe tenth grade, I went to a
Presbyterian private schoolwhere you lived and worked on
(13:58):
the farm down in Burke County,Georgia.
T. J. (14:02):
Okay.
William (14:03):
The school was named Boggs Academy, b o g g s. Boggs
Academy and it was aPresbyterian private prep
school. At the time, this was inthe late 50s and going into this
1960.
T. J. (14:22):
Just just for boys, males?
William (14:23):
No, this was a school.
T. J. (14:25):
Okay.
William (14:25):
Was it integrated? No, it was not. No schools that, are
you kidding? Oh, this was in thefifties. No, it was a black
school.
Okay. Yeah.
T. J. (14:33):
Why? I didn't want to age you out. I didn't know.
William (14:36):
Well, I'm already 82. So, what else? Yeah. 82 and
counting, by the way. Alright.
Boggs Academy. Boggs Academylocated in in the address
located Keysville, Georgia.However, Boggs was roughly about
10 miles from a little towncalled Waynesboro, Georgia. It
(15:01):
was in the middle in the middleand strictly the middle of
nowhere with a a severalhundreds of acres of farmland,
and the school operated on theidea of student labor. Student
labor provided labor for thefarm, which grew mostly all of
(15:25):
the foods that we ate, includingthe pork and the beef, and, of
course, the other foods whichcould be canned.
We had a canning plant. Theywere these foods were cooked and
served in the dining hall. Thestudents provided all the labor
for all this, by the way. Andwhen we weren't working, we were
(15:47):
in school or in church. Alright.
T. J. (15:51):
How did you get connected to Boggs Academy?
William (15:54):
Boggs was a Presbyterian school. My mother
was teaching in Burke County,Georgia, Waynesboro, and she
knew about it from thecommunity. And she decided later
on that this would be anexcellent place for me to be,
especially as I was growing upbecause it would hopefully keep
(16:15):
me out of trouble.
T. J. (16:16):
Did it work?
William (16:17):
Yeah. It did work.
T. J. (16:20):
So, it sounds like your life was pretty regimented
during your high school years.
William (16:26):
It was regimented.
T. J. (16:27):
And that prepared you for the military.
William (16:31):
No, it prepared me for Knoxville College.
T. J. (16:33):
Oh, okay.
William (16:34):
Even though I did want to go into the military which
happened after college. Boggspaved the way for me to go to
Knoxville College which was alsoanother Presbyterian USA College
located in Tennessee. Knoxville,by the way. And at Knoxville
College, I stayed the four yearsplus an extra semester to get
(17:00):
classes and education so that Icould get my teachings.
T. J. (17:03):
And so you got your teacher's certificate?
William (17:08):
I think I got my bachelor of science in education
with a major in history. Andthen I went to work of all
places with a a group that youknow well, Boy Scouts of America
as a as an assistant districtscout executive out of New York
City. Okay. And the firstborough I was assigned to, I'm
(17:30):
trying to think, was a little alittle group over in Brooklyn.
Yeah, that's right because whenI came back from Vietnam, I was
assigned to the Bronx.
T. J. (17:40):
Alright. So, you went straight from Knoxville College
to New York? Yes. So, what achange. You you.
Well. So, you went from NorthCarolina to Georgia to
Tennessee, East Tennessee, andthen to a large city like
Brooklyn.
William (17:58):
Well, it wasn't that hard to do because one of the
things I did during the summersfor college for work study was I
was fortunate to keep my gradesup enough to be selected for one
of the railroad jobs at the timewhich was a dining car waiter.
T. J. (18:21):
Okay.
William (18:22):
And that is if you kept your grades up.
T. J. (18:25):
So you would do this during the summer?
William (18:27):
During the summertime. At first, for the first three
summers of 1961, '62, '63, andI'm thinking part of '64. I
worked for Union PacificRailroad out of Ogden, based out
of Ogden, Utah, and that took meall the way down to Los Angeles,
(18:54):
California. We also had runsrunning from Ogden to Las Vegas,
Nevada, and then we had one runfrom Ogden down to Los Angeles
back to St. Louis, and thenback.
(19:19):
And then we had some time to runrun from Ogden to Chicago and
back. And anywhere else thetrain wanna run.
T. J. (19:26):
Tell me more about life on a dining car. So did you
sleep in the in the dining car?What what was
William (19:31):
the first time? Sleep in the dining car. Believe it or
not, the railroad at that timehad what they called a dormitory
car. Okay. It was a specialrailroad car that had rooms in
it.
When I look at this cabinsometimes, I think I remember
the space. The space was highlycramped. It was a four guys, so
(19:54):
a little space, and there was awashbasin in the center Okay.
Between the bunks. That's whereyou had to clean up in the
morning.
Unfortunately, Union Pacific didnot have showers. That was only
on the sometimes some of theWestern railroads like Southern
(20:16):
Pacific.
T. J. (20:17):
Alright.
William (20:17):
Where the water's always cold.
T. J. (20:19):
Well, did you have like a little locker to keep your stuff
in or?
William (20:22):
No, you had just you you stuff your your personal
items were in a little suitcaseand you took them up to the
little room you were assigned toand they normally went under the
bed, under the bunks.
T. J. (20:35):
Okay.
William (20:35):
And you didn't carry that much with you on the trip.
Sure. Now, change change ofclothes.
T. J. (20:39):
So how long would the run be? So how long would you be on
the train in between breaks?
William (20:44):
The average run would be sometimes two to three,
sometimes four days.
T. J. (20:55):
How this is gonna be a strange question. But how did
you keep your your work clothespressed and clean and because
you're working all day in it,multiple meals.
William (21:07):
The railroad provided a jacket, and you carried your
underwear, two or three pairs ofblack pants. And these things
stayed fresh out because whatyou would do was when you made
up your bunk in the morning, youwould fold your pants and put
(21:32):
them under your pillow. And theweight of that kept your pants
kinda pressed.
T. J. (21:39):
When you stopped in the city, you know, and and had your
day off, did they providehousing for you then? Yes.
William (21:48):
For example, when we did the run from Ogden, Utah
down to Los Angeles, at onetime, we were in Los Angeles for
two days.
T. J. (21:59):
Okay.
William (21:59):
So, that means the railroad gave you a hotel room.
Right. Where all the crusade.And leaving and getting back on
the train and crossing them backover from Los Angeles all the
way into Saint Louis, Missouri.You had another hotel room in
Saint Louis.
However, the St. Louis shop wasone night only. And then going
(22:22):
down to Las Vegas, it wasnormally one night overnight.
And I'm trying to think whereverelse was normally one or two
nights.
T. J. (22:32):
So this summer job gave you the opportunity to travel
big parts of the country, but italso gave you the opportunity to
meet people and interact withpeople. Any stories stick out?
Very much.
William (22:49):
Sometimes I had to I had to get used and put up with
the racism of being called boy,which was impolite and mean.
And, also, I had to train myselfnot to overreact. Let's go ahead
and serve the customer. And Iadopted the attitude. I'm gonna
(23:12):
look at you today, but I'm notgonna see you anymore, which was
sometime wrong.
You're see them again.
T. J. (23:19):
Yeah. That does help when dealing with difficult people.
The ability to be able to go,okay, my interaction with you is
limited because of travel orwork or, or whatever it may be.
Does sort of soften it a bit,that it's not a long term
toleration to rudeness or racismor in some cases even just evil.
(23:44):
It'd be like, I only have todeal with this evil for a short
period of time.
William (23:48):
Right. Or you could get even with them sometimes by
putting a little extra hot saucein the in the salad dressing or
whatever. That's mean butwhatever. Well,
T. J. (24:00):
I don't know if I promote that, but it does. I, I imagine
temporarily sort of, satisfy.Yeah. The soul.
William (24:09):
It did.
T. J. (24:09):
Temporarily. What, what other interesting experiences
did you have during your diningcar and and really just as a
young man? Because at thispoint, you're a young man.
You're an adult. You're inschool.
You're working during thesummer.
William (24:29):
Well, a lot of the work started at the high school
because at Boggs Academy, thestudents I stayed there during
the summers and worked on thefarm. At Boggs Academy, I was
assigned to the farm crew, whichmeans that which meant that I
had the responsibility of theentire growing process of a of
(24:55):
plants to include planting them,applying the fertilizer, praying
for rain, and sometimes whenwhen they when they concern the
beef herd that we weremaintaining on the on the little
ranch we had, myself and otherfellas had to rotate the cows to
(25:19):
different pastures and thatmeans turning into a crude
cowboy.
T. J. (25:23):
Alright, on foot or on horseback?
William (25:25):
Are you kidding? This was a little black school out in
the middle of the country. Wedidn't have any horses. Alright.
T. J. (25:32):
We had foot, feet. Okay. With dogs or without dogs?
William (25:36):
Oh, are you kidding too? Again? Right. We yelled at
the cows.
T. J. (25:44):
I'm learning so much. Okay.
William (25:47):
And also, we to literally take care of these
little animals. I rememberlearning such little things with
calves. Calves would developconditions called pink eye. So
that meant that as a youngwrangler or whatever, you had to
grab the little calf around theneck, which was hard, put your
(26:11):
fingers in the nose and twistthe head to squirt medication in
the eyes for pink eye. And bythat time the cow careful step
on your foot, well, you know,that could be odd too and
hurting.
So the dining car work was quitethe contrast. Oh, yes. It was.
To You were clean and in a niceair conditioned dining car
(26:34):
inside.
T. J. (26:35):
Dealing with difficult people, but it's a trade off, I
guess, between difficultlivestock and
William (26:42):
It was, but you had to depend a lot on your memory,
remembering what customerswanted, talking with them
intelligently, of course, aboutthe meal I was prepared and so
forth, and also where you weregoing and all that.
T. J. (26:58):
Yeah. So tell me the trick on that. I never worked in
the restaurant industry. What isthe trick to be able to some
waiters are able to memorizewithout writing down what people
order, their drinks to the food,to how the food's prepared?
William (27:15):
Well, one of the good things was that the menus on the
railroad were always standard.So if you were on a Chicago to
Los Angeles or Chicago to St.Louis or from Ogden, say
whatever, You knew what themenus were and you got used to
that.
T. J. (27:35):
Okay.
William (27:36):
Now, sometime when it came to preparation, in the
event that someone would askyou, you learn how to talk to
the cooks. The railroad normallycarried about four cooks on a
standard when I'm usingexpression, I'm gonna use the
(27:58):
expression on a standard cracktrain. And when I say a crack
train, I'm talking about a oneof the best trains. On some of
the best trains, you would havea crew of four cooks and seven
waiters. And when you're doingyour little break chimes and
all, you were doing a little youdo you would do a little
(28:19):
inquiring.
How did you make this orwhatever? Mhmm. And, also, you
were right there in the rightacross from the kitchen in the
area called the pantry, and youcould see what was going on.
Also, the waiters had to partlyprepare some of the items such
as salads and sometimesdesserts.
T. J. (28:44):
When you work that hard and that long on the dining car
and you're a young man and youyou really you don't have a
permanent place to lay your headbecause of your work. Where is
where is your faith at thisplace and time in your life?
William (28:59):
You had I had you had to have a good faith in god.
Now, one of the advantages onthat was when you were in the
little town where you wereliving. For example, doing the
western runs with Union PacificRailroad, I lived in Ogden,
Utah. And I specificallyremember two little black
(29:22):
churches in the little town. Onewas a Baptist church and one was
a Methodist church.
And we took turns kind ofalternating between churches
depending on where you wereliving. For example, I remember
when I was living with missusBerliner, she was an old
(29:47):
railroad widow who rented roomsout to college students. We went
to the Baptist Church becausethat's where she went.
T. J. (29:54):
Alright. Yeah. So help me in the place of chronology. So
you finish up at KnoxvilleCollege, and then you relocate
into Brooklyn for Scouting.Scouting.
So let's pick up from there, andcan you walk me through that?
William (30:14):
Getting into scouting, Boy Scouts of America at the
time was doing a superrecruiting job. Are you getting
warm in here? I'm good. Okay.Boardshelves of America was
doing a super recruiting job,and then the greater New York
councils, they realized thatthey needed to put a big
(30:36):
emphasis on hiring a group ofblack or African American
assistant district executivesbecause the if they wanted if
they were going to garner littleblack kids, especially in the
inner city, you had to have someblack executives.
So that's where it paid off. Andin order to start this, they
(31:04):
started a recruiting program atKnoxville College for the execs.
And what they did was they wouldjoin you up with a local
scouting unit to where youlearned a lot of the basics from
the of a volunteer level, fromthe executive level down to the
(31:25):
volunteer level of what theprogram was about fully.
T. J. (31:30):
What was it about that job that appealed to you?
William (31:35):
The job the appeal to me was the the meeting of
different people, learning allof the different nuances of what
scouting was about, being ableto talk to people on all
different levels. And that washighly important in New York
City.
T. J. (31:56):
Had you ever envisioned yourself working with, well, and
adults?
William (32:03):
Well I was not working with kids by the way.
T. J. (32:05):
So this was all This was strictly adults.
William (32:08):
My job dealt with recruiting volunteers, adult
volunteers to work with scoutingprograms and also finding viable
units such as a church or abusiness or a civic organization
(32:33):
to sponsor and maintain theunit.
T. J. (32:35):
Alright. So tell me, how does a transplant to Brooklyn go
out and recruit, folks who areworking jobs, trying to raise
their kids, and just trying tomake it. Maybe the scouts
William (32:54):
Well, what what I deal with. I did that through I did
that through becoming familiarwith the the volunteer units who
were going to sponsor a troop.Okay. For example, a church. And
I would meet with the churchofficials and take some time to
(33:17):
explain the program to them.
And then we would start and gofrom there. Okay. Or if it was a
business or a civic group, Iwould take the time to learn
something about the businessthey were doing and then get
involved that way.
T. J. (33:33):
Alright. So, you're taking your people skills that
you learned in part. From therailroad. From the railroad.
Yeah.
And then translating thatExactly like that. Right.
Because you gotta be sharp. Youhave to be quick. And and you're
also persuasive.
William (33:52):
Also what? Persuasive. Yeah. Another thing I forgot to
mention. During my collegeyears, I also worked at a little
neighborhood service station.
Okay, tell me more. So that wasconstantly meeting people and
pumping gas and doing littleminor mechanic work for the
(34:12):
vehicles. And so with with thewith the constant talking and
the interchange of ideas, thatwas a good way of learning. By
the way, the service stationarea was in Knoxville,
Tennessee.
T. J. (34:24):
Okay. Yeah. All right. Have you been by in years past
just to see what's on that lot?
William (34:31):
Yeah. As a matter of fact, it's interesting. The
service station is no longerthere. Some kind of business
facility has occupied thatentire corner.
T. J. (34:43):
Alright. At some point, and and kinda walk me through
this, you get into the militaryand Oh, I was happy to get in
the military. Okay. So so okay.Was there any more about the Boy
Scouts?
William (35:00):
Well, I tell you, Boy Shelves is okay. However, as I
kept on working and staying inNew York, I guess time became a
little bit disenchanting. And Ialways wanted to weigh out, but
I did not want to quit. You donot quit jobs. So, fortunately,
(35:22):
in January matter of fact,March, I can remember the date
well.
The 01/03/1967 was the date thatI was supposed to report to the
(35:44):
Whitehall Street InductionStation. And I remember that
date very well because I said,thank god for this. This got me
out of New York for three years,and then I went right back to
New York for reemploymentrights. However, it got me out
(36:05):
at the time.
T. J. (36:07):
So were you drafted or did you volunteer?
William (36:09):
I was drafted. And then once I got in, I decided and it
was I if I knew what I knew now,I would have chosen a different
MOS. After I got in, Ivolunteered for another year in
order to get the militaryoccupational skill of my choice
(36:34):
and what I thought was mychoice. My choice, as I was
reading the little literature onthe occupational skill, was I
looked at two words, heavyequipment. I did not look at the
(36:54):
capital letter initials beforethe heavy equipment.
And I remember we were in basictraining and I asked the one of
the sergeants. I said, is thisheavy equipment such as cranes
and dozers and pans and all ofthat? He said, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
(37:15):
Anything. I'm sure he'd agreewith anything. And I went ahead
and signed off on it. And thenext thing I know, I'm sitting
at Fort Lee, Virginia, which wasquartermaster heavy equipment,
which consisted of repairinglaundry units, field bakery
(37:41):
units, field laundry units, andfield petroleum dispensing
units, which involved a lot oflearning because you had to
learn small engines, hydraulics,I can just go a long list of
things. The school was twelveweeks long, by the way.
T. J. (38:04):
So you're a young man with a college degree and a full
time job, and you still getdrafted into Vietnam?
William (38:12):
It didn't matter. Didn't matter. It didn't matter.
You were on the draft list andyou were going to get drafted.
T. J. (38:21):
Solely because of your age.
William (38:23):
Solely because of your age and your number on the draft
lottery.
T. J. (38:31):
Did you watch the TV when those numbers would come up?
William (38:35):
I didn't know anything about lottery numbers on the
television.
T. J. (38:38):
Okay. I've seen footage of where that would be shown.
So, how were they was itannounced publicly or is you
just got it through?
William (38:47):
No, in my case, my my local board, my local draft
board was out of Waynesboro,Georgia because that's where I
had graduated from high schoolin in Burke County. Even though
you're up in Brooklyn. Yeah. Sothey had I had to constantly
notify them where I was. Mhmm.
And at the time, I was at shiftscout reservation up in Mendham,
(39:16):
New Jersey training to be anassistant district scout
executive. And I found theletters finally found me, and so
I reported finally to the draftstation in Brooklyn, New York,
Whitehall Street. I remember itwell right now, like yesterday.
(39:39):
And once once I did that, theygave me the physical and all
that, and I raised my righthand, took the oath, and next
thing you know, I'm in the army.But when I got in the army, when
they mentioned, if you takeanother year, you can get the
school of your choice.
They mentioned the equipment,but they didn't mention anything
about quartermaster equipment. Ijust looked at the heavy
(40:01):
equipment. Next thing I know,I'm dealing with all the things
that is previously mentioned.
T. J. (40:06):
You're right. Not exactly what you envisioned.
William (40:09):
What I envisioned. However, it turned out to be
okay because then I learnedsomething different. I learned
the automotive mechanics becauseI had to learn something about
engines. I learned hydrohydraulics. They had an
excellent course in electricity,plumbing, all of those little
(40:31):
things.
And at one time, before I hadturned 82 years old, I was
pretty good in maintaining myskills to do those little things
around the house. And, also, byknowing those skills, they were
excellent when I became acorrectional principal later on
(40:51):
in life.
T. J. (40:53):
Oh, man. There's so many paths your life has taken that I
haven't heard about. So I'm I'mexcited to hear to hear more. So
when you finished at Fort Lee
William (41:05):
Yeah.
T. J. (41:05):
Your twelve week training, then what happened?
William (41:08):
Well, somebody came along one day and said, you were
going to be detailed here as aninstructor. Okay. So for the
next few months, whatever, ayear, whatever it was, I've
forgotten. I stayed thereteaching and I was detailed to
teach POL, which was petroleum,oil, and lubricating equipment.
(41:32):
So you went straight fromstudent to instructor.
Right.
T. J. (41:36):
Alright. How many years were you in the military?
William (41:41):
If you look at the total number of years, including
the the reserve time, the totalof twenty seven. Wow.
T. J. (41:51):
Wow. So did you spend your whole time doing training
as an instructor?
William (41:59):
The whole actually, due to time, yes. I did. So after
you Well, except for Vietnam.
T. J. (42:06):
Oh, okay. Tell me more about Vietnam.
William (42:08):
Oh, Vietnam was a nice experience. I found out one day
that no, what happened? This isall started. Somebody made the
brilliant decision to move mysection of the school at Fort
(42:30):
Lee to Aberdeen Proving Ground,Maryland. Okay.
And so I was detailed to set upand get all of the equipment
ready in the shop, packaged andall that to send to Aberdeen
with the assumption that I wouldbe going to Aberdeen as an
(42:52):
instructor. When the move wasfinally completed, instead of
going to Aberdeen, I went toVietnam with only eight months
left on my enlistment.
T. J. (43:06):
Well, that must have been a surprise.
William (43:08):
Well, yeah, it was a surprise with the amount of
time, but get orders, you getorders. So you go to Vietnam.
And once I got to Vietnam,because of the experience, I was
assigned as the motor sergeantfor the battalion.
T. J. (43:28):
Where were you stationed at in Vietnam?
William (43:31):
Headquarters and headquarters company, ADA Supply
and Service Battalion in an areaclose to a little town called
Pleiku, P L E I K U, up northnear the Central Highlands. And
you spent your eight monthsthere? At Pleiku. At Motor pool.
(43:53):
What happened after eightmonths?
After eight months, I returnedto The United States to be
detailed out. What does thatmean? Bye.
T. J. (44:08):
Okay. What were your plans after that?
William (44:12):
My plans after that, because I was married at the
time, my plans after that was togo back to my old job and then
try to find something as soon aspossible into Jackson,
Tennessee. My because my wifeand my daughter that my baby
daughter and my newborn son wereinjection. I made sure before I
(44:36):
went to Vietnam that they camehome to her parents.
T. J. (44:40):
Okay.
William (44:41):
But in the event that something negative would have
happened to me, I want her to bearound a support system.
T. J. (44:46):
Sure. Like like you grew up
William (44:48):
in.
T. J. (44:48):
Yeah. Yeah. Had you been to Jackson prior? No. Yeah.
Alright. So you come back.You're in Jackson. What job did
you land?
William (45:01):
From New York to Jackson, I landed, of all
places, with the Jackson PoliceDepartment as a police officer.
And they told me at the outset,now you know that the
probationary period here is sixmonths, and we can terminate you
(45:22):
anytime during that six months.I guess that was a warning.
T. J. (45:28):
Before he even started. Right. Well, how did that six
months go?
William (45:34):
At the end of six months,
T. J. (45:35):
they terminated me. No kidding. Yeah.
William (45:40):
And then told me that I could find a job teaching in the
city. So what'd you do? Well, atthe time, my wife one day was in
Nashville taking an exam to workfor the state of Tennessee. And
while she was working, I waslooking for a job. And I
(46:02):
remember at the either theAndrew Jackson Building or
Rachel Jackson Building, Iforget which one.
I went up to the Eleventh Floor,and there was a sign that said,
department of correction. And Iwent in, had all my little
paperwork and my little cheapsuit on, and I introduced
(46:24):
myself. And I the only job Iknew about was correction was
correctional officer. And so Iwent in and inquired about other
things they had and the ladysaid, if you don't mind, just
wait here a minute and she wentnext door into the
Commissioner's Office and inthat meeting, at that moment,
(46:47):
there was the director ofeducation, commissioner of
correction, and one otherperson. I forget when.
And the next day, she sent me inthe room to meet with them. And
at the time, they had an openingat the Tennessee State
Penitentiary for a correctionalteacher. And so they asked me if
(47:08):
I was interested based on myexperience and I said, yes. And
so I was sent out to the mainprison. So.
For an interview.
T. J. (47:17):
Let me interrupt you just for a minute. Yes. So you walked
in without an appointment. Yes.You walked out with a full time
job.
Yes. Oh, that's pretty amazing.
William (47:26):
I look at it as divine intervention. I went out to the
main prison and interviewed withthe warden and the director of
treatment. Matter of fact, I Ican remember his name. His last
name was Childress Childress. Iwas hired as a teacher, and I
(47:50):
stayed there roughly for almostsix months before I transferred
down to the newest prison in thestate, was Tornish Center for
Youthful Offenders down in SA40.
As you go up in SA 40, you'llsee a sign on it now.
T. J. (48:07):
That's
William (48:07):
right. I guess it's there, I don't know. Anyway, I
got down to Tornish Center andthe principal started getting
into my case about going back toschool and getting my master's.
It was essentially, it workedobviously because I got my GI
(48:28):
bill started, enrolled atMemphis State, and I graduated
with my master master's degreein education and got certified
as a principal. But in themeantime, they were building
another prison in Memphis, and Iwas selected as a deputy warden.
T. J. (48:54):
What is the role of a deputy warden?
William (48:57):
To literally run the prison for the warden.
T. J. (49:00):
Wow. What year is this?
William (49:05):
Wow. Now you're getting into my mind because I'm
forgetting dates. What decade?That was in the that was in the
1970. Yeah.
Because I got started01/01/1971. Yeah. So this was
'70 I think it was about 1976.
T. J. (49:26):
Okay. Yeah. So you're a deputy warden in a Memphis
prison facility?
William (49:32):
It was a Memphis Correctional Center.
T. J. (49:34):
Okay. So tell me more about the prison life and the
role of a deputy warden.
William (49:43):
The role of a deputy warden in any prison, I don't
know about now, but back then,the ability to run the prison.
You had to take care of yoursecurity operation, your
treatment, and everything else.You had to do everything except
the business functions. For thebusiness functions, they had, at
that time, another associatewarden position of business
(50:05):
affairs, or whatever it wascalled, I forget.
T. J. (50:07):
So you're really running the daily operation from
staffing to prison? Staffing,security, food service,
everything. My goodness. Andthen somebody else did the
administrative type thing. Howlong were you there?
William (50:23):
I stayed at Memphis from 1971, about five years, and
then they changed the operationof the prison. So that's when I
reached back and pulled out theprincipal certificate that was
(50:44):
connected to the master's degreein education Mhmm. Became the
principal at the prison. I justthey what they did, they
abolished my position as deputywarden. So I became the
principal there for a fewmonths, and then I relocated up
to Western and see up in theNorthwest Corner near
Chipptonville to the newestprison up there, which was Lake
(51:07):
County Regional Prison asprincipal.
T. J. (51:13):
So you've got this for for a big chunk of your early
life, You've got all thistransition from school, going
back to school, various jobs.How did you keep grounded during
that time? Mentally,spiritually, That's a lot of
(51:34):
change in really a short periodof time.
William (51:36):
One, I knew who I was.
T. J. (51:38):
Maybe. Yeah.
William (51:39):
I knew who I was, and I knew what I wanted to do, which
was ultimately be able tomotivate and change somebody's
life.
T. J. (51:52):
Yeah. And I may be jumping ahead on this question,
but where does the ministrystart trickling into
William (52:02):
your life? In the ministry. Well, you gotta look
at this now. Realize that in myin my college years, initially,
the whole idea was to get abachelor's degree in order to go
to seminary. Okay.
(52:22):
And knowing that I wanted to bea preacher, this is when I
started the process of I'm goingto go to seminary but I'm going
to put it off until later on.And when I became a when I
became the deputy warden atMemphis, that allowed me to for
(52:42):
a small time to live in Jackson,and I became involved with the
Christian Methodist EpiscopalChurch because my wife at the
time who were now deceased was amember of the Christian
Methodist Episcopal Church Andthe Christian Methodist
Episcopal Church did notnecessarily at that time have a
(53:06):
seminary requirement for theirministers. Your college degree
was accepted, and they also hadsome training that they would
provide, but you did notnecessarily have to have a
seminary degree. But theseminary thing was on my mind in
that I am going to do this, butI'm going to do it later. So I
came over to the CME church, soChristian Methodist Episcopal
(53:29):
Church, and was graduallyordained after a bunch of
training.
And after being ordained, I wasassigned to a pair of rural
(53:51):
churches down in HardimanCounty.
T. J. (53:56):
While still working.
William (53:57):
Yes, it was bi vocational. Yeah. Which is also
along my line too. Yeah. Becauselooking at my father, I didn't
look at my father, but listeningto my mother, I did not want to
be dependent on a church for aliving.
(54:19):
Mhmm. I wanted to work and alsotake care of church business and
preach. In other words, a bivocational minister. That's
always been my thoughts.
T. J. (54:32):
Right. Okay. So your home was in the Jackson area? Yes.
You commuted to the Memphisarea?
William (54:42):
I did until I this will be funny for you. Until I found
a space, a living space in theprison.
T. J. (54:52):
Oh, okay. Yeah. Alright. So, you were able to spend the
night there.
William (54:58):
Yeah, not only the nights. I spent the days, the
weeks, and everything elsethere.
T. J. (55:01):
So, you never left work.
William (55:03):
No, I never, you're exactly right. I never left
work. Okay.
T. J. (55:09):
Tell me about your experience in the Christian
Methodist Episcopal Church.
William (55:14):
Experience in the Christian Methodist Episcopal
Church started at Mother LibertyCME Church which is here in
Jackson. Mhmm. Assisting the atthe time assisting the minister.
As a local preacher. A localpreacher was a position for an
(55:37):
aspiring minister in the CMEchurch.
In other words, working as aministerial assistant with
periodically being given theassignment to do sermons and all
of that. Kinda like practice.Yeah. Practice.
T. J. (55:53):
Kinda fill out or feel the role and and see the role.
You would go
William (55:58):
out with the minister to visit those who were sick.
You would also sit in toofficial church meetings and see
what was going on fully.
T. J. (56:07):
Interesting. So, it's kind of like a mentorship. It
was
William (56:10):
a very good mentorship. Okay.
T. J. (56:12):
That that would be helpful. Yeah. Yeah. Alright.
How did you get tied in to theCumberland Presbyterian Church
in America?
William (56:23):
I got tied into the Cumberland Presbyterian Church
in America after being in theCME church for several years.
And I was here in Jackson, and Ifound out that Mount Tabor
Cumberland Presbyterian Churchin America had a vacancy. And so
(56:45):
I went to visit the session oneevening when they were having
their meeting and found out howI could cross over. And doing
that after doing that, I wrotemy bishop a letter and told him
my interests and also myinterest in eventually getting a
(57:09):
chance to go to seminary.
T. J. (57:11):
Mhmm.
William (57:11):
Since we had Memphis Theological nearby. And he
signed off on my transfer. Andthen I came over to the
Cumberland Presbyterian Churchand was ordained into the
(57:34):
gradually ordained into aministerial practice.
T. J. (57:40):
And so your first call in the Cumberland Presbyterian
Church was at Mount Tabor. Yes,it was. That's amazing. What was
your attraction to theCumberland Presbyterian Church?
William (57:57):
One of the attractions of the Cumberland Presbyterian
Church was the fact that theCumberland Presbyterian Church
had a seminary in Memphis,Tennessee.
T. J. (58:06):
Going back to education. Yes. High value of education.
Right.
William (58:09):
And my intent to go to seminary. That was the main
issue. And what was sointeresting, once I became
ordained and was fastening MountTabor, I remember inquiring at
(58:29):
Memphis Theological, and Iforget who the I forget who was
on the other end of thetelephone. There's somebody
still there now that I know. Andhe informed me that as an
ordained minister, that theCumberland Presbyterian Church
(58:52):
would pick up the tab for megoing to seminary.
Mhmm. And when he said that, Isaid, in my mind, praise god. So
for the first few years ofpastoring at Mount Shabbat, I
was also a seminary student.
T. J. (59:12):
Okay. So you you served the church and was also a
student. Were you still workingin the correctional field?
William (59:26):
No. By that time, I'm thinking that I had recharged
from corrections. Okay. Yeah.
T. J. (59:34):
So, what decade are we in for you to be a seminary student
and serve a Mount Tabor?
William (59:39):
We are into the nineteen eighties, I'm thinking.
T. J. (59:47):
Alright. So your children are getting a little bit older.
They're older. And so what wasit like to be able to serve the
Cumberland Presbyterian churchinto the eighties nineties? And
now in this new century, how hasit changed?
(01:00:07):
How was it say that again,please? How has the Cumberland
Presbyterian church changed fromyour introduction in the
nineteen eighties into thenineties and now in this new
century?
William (01:00:19):
The change is not that the liturgy and all that, they
have they have not been thatthat many so called changes.
Mhmm. The hymns, I was very muchfamiliar with and all that
because I grew up in aPresbyterian church. Mhmm. So
(01:00:40):
that bounced back.
The part of the liturgy, I hadgrown up with that, so that
didn't change. Mhmm. So it's allthe same.
T. J. (01:00:54):
From your perspective, what are some of the best
characteristics of theCumberland Presbyterian Church?
William (01:01:03):
Some of the best characteristics of the
Cumberland Presbyterian Churchis I think there is a bit more
freedom for the ministers asopposed to the Methodist system.
In the Methodist system, you'realways concerned about the
(01:01:25):
hierarchy with the bishopsystem. In the Cumberland
Presbyterian Church, you knowthat the church hierarchy is
going to be concerned primarilywith the church officials
themselves right there withinthat local church. And then when
(01:01:49):
it comes to the presbytery andthe senators and all of these
things, that's that's with thechurch but it's also outside the
main church body. Right.
T. J. (01:02:00):
So, there's a connection there and yet there's still some
self autonomy. Yes. As well.It's a it's a beautiful balance
as opposed to maybe a morehierarchical situation. What
hopes do you have for theCumberland Presbyterian Church
(01:02:20):
looking into the future?
William (01:02:22):
Looking into the future, I would like to see the
Cumberland Presbyterian Churchas simply one body. Cumberland
Presbyterian Church Mhmm. Asopposed to Cumberland
Presbyterian Church in Americaand Cumberland Presbyterian
Church. Just one body ofChristians in service to god and
(01:02:44):
neighbor. Yes.
That's what I would love to see.
T. J. (01:02:48):
Me too. Me too. Reverend Montague, you have so many so
much input and you're still soactive in the Cumberland
Presbyterian church. Do you mindjust kind of talking about the
different areas of of yourministry? For example, I'll I'll
(01:03:10):
start you off.
When I come over to your houseto record this, you're preparing
to be to instruct at the programof alternate studies. You're a
longtime instructor, for theintroduction to the Bible. Yes.
So that's just one little pieceof you being active in ministry.
What else are you doing?
(01:03:31):
Which, by the way, is not alittle piece. Being an
instructor at Program ofAlternate Studies is.
William (01:03:35):
At this time in my life, at this time in my life,
that is all that I'm doing asfar as outside the church
itself. As a matter of fact,right now, I am not actively
engaged in a church ministryitself. I think I'm a little too
old for that now. Okay. But theopportunity to work with and to
(01:04:04):
help instruct new incomingministers to me is a blessing.
Mhmm. I go over that littlecurriculum every year to make
sure that it is upgraded to thecurrent time. As a matter of
fact, when we were coming downhere, you saw my two
(01:04:25):
interpreters' Bibles that I wasbringing back to the cabin.
Yeah. One is the most recentissue, and one is an older
issue.
The older issue that you see upthere right here, the two books
right here on top of the thing.
T. J. (01:04:38):
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
William (01:04:39):
The older issue, believe it or not, is a gift
from my father's classmate inthe back in the forties. He was
my father's classmate up atLincoln University, and he kept
those in his library that justsits down here on the shelf. He
(01:04:59):
kept those in his library andtold me one day when I paid a
visit to him that those were mybooks when he died. And after
his death and funeral, Iremember going up to
Pennsylvania right outside ofPhiladelphia and picking up
those interpretive Bibles andshipping them back to Jackson.
(01:05:22):
Mhmm.
Now that's an older set. But ontop of that is the latest
version, the new interpretiveBible, and I eventually when I
was in seminary down at MTS,ordered me a set so that I could
stay on top of everything. Alongwith the other books I've got in
here. I've got books of everysort in here.
T. J. (01:05:41):
Yeah, just for those who are listening for perspective,
we, we are in a room that allthe walls have books from floor
to ceiling. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'mlooking around right now. Well,
let's not sell yourself short.
So you teach at the program ofalternate studies. You mentioned
(01:06:05):
just a moment ago, and I want tokind of parse this out a bit. So
in a presbytery meeting once ayear during communications, you
read part of the catalog of theclasses being offered with the
program of alternate studies.Yeah. Even if New Hopewell
Presbytery doesn't have acurrent, candidate or licensure
(01:06:30):
for ministry, you're alwaysencouraging the presbytery that,
Hey, you can come and attendthese classes.
William (01:06:38):
Yeah.
T. J. (01:06:38):
I This is do what's available. I do bet. And it's
not far away from, well, matterof fact, Bethel University,
where program of alternatestudies is, holds its courses is
in the bounds of this verypresbytery. I've always admired
that. And you've been a chair ofthe committee on ministry as
(01:06:59):
well.
So that's where I was leadingyou in my question is you were
more active and more involvedthan, than I think you give
credit for.
William (01:07:10):
I don't look at it that way.
T. J. (01:07:17):
What else would you like to cover that we haven't touched
on?
William (01:07:23):
If you take some time to read your bible and also back
up with your faith, in the bookof Genesis chapter six, god puts
a life expectancy for humans atone twenty. And I think that is
(01:07:49):
a high possibility for us if wewere to change our ways of
thinking, our ways of eating,our attitudes toward each other,
(01:08:11):
and our overall attitude towardlife in general. And I believe
that we can gradually reachgod's promise by going out there
and doing some things, andthat's what I wanna do. And I
tell people that I'm gonna bearound for a while just to make
(01:08:33):
you mad. I'm gonna be around fora while.
I won't be here for a long time,and this is why I am acquiring
and by the way, most of thesebooks I have read. This is why
I'm acquiring others. I've got alot of books up to the house.
I'm still reading. Mhmm.
And anytime I get theopportunity to talk to people
(01:08:56):
and lead and change somebody'slife, I want to do the same
thing because God has allowed meto be influenced and supported
by others, and I think it's timenow at age 82 that I try to give
(01:09:18):
back a little of that which Ihave been given.
T. J. (01:09:21):
I appreciate you giving me your time inviting me to your
home for us to do thisrecording. You have been an
encouragement to me.
William (01:09:31):
Thank
T. J. (01:09:31):
you. Since I've known you. We're going on ten years.
William (01:09:35):
That long?
T. J. (01:09:36):
Yes, sir. Wow. Yeah. Maybe, maybe more. Let's just
say ten.
We'll round it down or up toten. And you've been an
encouragement to me and, you'vehelped me along the way. And
I've picked up bits and piecesof your faith, over the years,
(01:09:57):
but I thought it would behelpful if we sat down like we
are now and just giving you theopportunity to kind of walk me
through, your life and yourministry. Reverend Montague, I
like asking my guests, for thispodcast, what are you reading
now? And since we're surroundedby books, it seems like a highly
(01:10:20):
appropriate question to ask you.
William (01:10:22):
Well, it's interesting that you would ask this because
those books that you're talkingabout that I am reading up at
the house right now.
T. J. (01:10:28):
Mhmm.
William (01:10:28):
And I can't think of the I can't think of the titles
nor can I think of the author'sname? But the author, by the
way, is a Jewish author, and alot of his writing is is highly
is highly fictional, but it isusing a lot of the Old Testament
(01:10:49):
scripture. And what isinteresting is that I can relate
to that because as I'm reading,I can see where he's going with
that. It's kind of prophetic.
T. J. (01:11:04):
Do you read stuff just for pleasure?
William (01:11:07):
Now, I do. Yeah. I don't I thank god I don't have
to go to school anymore.
T. J. (01:11:12):
Well, a lot of times for ministers and instructors. Yeah.
You know, in preparation for asermon or preparation for
teaching a class or for yourwork, for your ministry, you
you're kind of reading butyou're reading for someone else.
William (01:11:28):
Well, on on sermon, on on sermon preparation, my
reading would go strictly withstrictly Bible. Mhmm. And I can
go into that. As a matter offact, if you turn around and
look up top, right under thehorn up there, that's a sack of
old old sermons.
T. J. (01:11:48):
No kidding.
William (01:11:48):
Yeah. That's a sack of em.
T. J. (01:11:50):
So, do you like, do you use a manuscript or do you do
bullet points?
William (01:11:56):
That's a manuscript. Okay. Right.
T. J. (01:11:59):
I have found in my ministry that I've sort of ebb
and flow. Sometimes, I in thepast, I've just had note cards.
Sometimes, I might just havelittle bullet points. Right.
Themes.
Right. And then on otheroccasions, it will just be full
manuscript.
William (01:12:14):
For full manuscript. Yeah. Because I can always go
back to that for otherreferences and I can always go
back to those and revise themfor an ongoing sermon. That's
true. Yeah.
T. J. (01:12:25):
Yeah. I've done that as well. Thank you for your time. I
appreciate you, yourhospitality, your graciousness,
and, and most importantly, I'veenjoyed hearing your faith
journey.
William (01:12:41):
Thank you. Thank you.
T. J. (01:12:43):
Thank you for listening to this episode of Cumberland
Road. Doctor. Montagueintroduced me to worlds in which
I am not aware of, and I'mgrateful for it. He's been very
instrumental in my ministry inboth the Cumberland Presbyterian
Church and in the CumberlandPresbyterian Church in America.
(01:13:06):
One takeaway from ourconversation is how important it
is of knowing who you are. Inclosing is an excerpt from Maya
Angelou's poem, Still I Rise. Ontough days, this excerpt comes
to my mind. You may shoot mewith your words. You may cut me
(01:13:31):
with your eyes. You may kill mewith your hatefulness, but still
like air, I'll rise. Thanks forlistening.
Welcome to the Cumberland Road. I'm your host TJ
Malinoski. The following is thefaith journey of Reverend
Doctor. William Montague. He isthe pastor emeritus at Mount
Tabor Cumberland PresbyterianChurch in America in Jackson,
(00:24):
Tennessee. Doctor Montague hascombined multiple lifetimes in
just a mere eighty two years. Heis a minister. He has worked on
a railroad dining car while incollege. Instructor for special
purpose equipment and vehiclesfor the United States Army.
(00:48):
Assistant District ScoutExecutive for the Boy Scouts of
America in Brooklyn, New York.He was a prison deputy warden, a
prison teacher, a prisonprincipal, jail administrator,
and prison operationsadministrator, and probably
(01:11):
much, much more than I know of.We recorded this conversation in
Doctor. Montague's office. Andwith my inexperience, I
unknowingly had the microphonesrunning hot, meaning the gain
was too high. This makes part ofour conversation crackle and
(01:36):
pop. I tried to rectify this inediting, but for those who
aren't, for those who are in theknow, once that crackle and pop
is there, it isn't coming out.So for the suboptimal recording,
I apologize and will continue tostrive to improve with every
(01:58):
faith conversation I have.Anyway, here is my faith
conversation with ReverendDoctor. William Montague.
Can you recall your earliestencounter with god where god
(02:19):
just was sort of on your radarfor the first time?
William (02:23):
I think my earliest encounter with god would be as a
child. I grew up in a householdof old Presbyterians in North
Carolina, primarily mygrandfather, my paternal
(02:45):
grandfather, my grandmother, mymother. My father was deceased
by the way, and he happened tohave been a Presbyterian USA
minister who had graduated fromLincoln University in
(03:08):
Pennsylvania. And he died earlybefore I was born in his
thirties. So the encounter withGod came from a knowledge of him
and a knowledge of talking withthe people in the neighborhood
(03:30):
and my parents and god andgrandparents.
I think I also encountered godin my daily activities of
playing. I realized that therehad to be a special being in my
life who loved me based on whatI saw around me in terms of the
(03:57):
natural environment with the sunshining. I can always remember
sunshiny days growing up in inNorth Carolina, Fayetteville,
North Carolina. And they justthey're very pleasant
environment. Also, I would haveto look at the way that I was
(04:18):
related to by the neighbors andthe other people.
They treated me nice as a child.
T. J. (04:24):
Let's talk more about your childhood. What was it like
growing up in Fayetteville,North Carolina?
William (04:31):
Growing up in Fayetteville, North Carolina
during the '19 the late nineteenforties into the fifties and on
into the sixties was arelatively pleasant experience.
Unfortunately, those were thedays of segregation in The
(04:52):
United States and all over. Butwe as African Americans, black
people, or colored people thatwe were called at the time were
acclimated into this. So we justwe just simply accepted this as
another part of the reality, notreally expecting anything to
(05:15):
change. However, people werepeople and they were nice.
T. J. (05:20):
When you were a kid growing up, what did you dream
about becoming?
William (05:29):
Oh, a lot of things I dreamed about becoming. One of
the things I dreamed aboutbecoming was a minister, and
that's something I had to sortout. And that might have been
because of the influences of mygrandparents and my neighbors.
(05:51):
The idea back then was if ifyour father was a professional
or whatever, that's what youwould be.
T. J. (06:01):
Alright.
William (06:02):
And considering that my father was a minister, the
conversation generally wentsomething like this. Your daddy
was a preacher. He was a finepreacher. You're going to be a
preacher, aren't you? Well, Idon't know.
Maybe I will. But if you'regoing to be a preacher and
(06:23):
especially a Presbyterianpreacher, remember one thing,
you're going to have to go toschool which is fine. Mhmm.
That's that's what I knew wellahead to do. It's always been a
part of my life.
Mhmm.
T. J. (06:36):
Yeah, since I've known you, you've highly valued
education. Yes, I did.
William (06:45):
I also took on an interest in reading when I was
young. As a matter of fact, I mysister and I probably read every
book in the little library thatwe had in the community. It was
a little two room library,possibly about as big as this
cabin. Little two room librarydowntown in the on the one of
(07:09):
the main streets inFayetteville, and it was
upstairs. And we would probablystop in there every day coming
from school, and then on theweekends and so forth, we would
check our books and take themhome and read them along with
what my neighbors gave me.
T. J. (07:26):
What were some of your favorite books coming up of age
that you still recall?
William (07:35):
That's kind of hard. I'll use the Huckleberry Finn
stories and the Tom Sawyers andall of that. Yeah. But there
were several others. I was alsoencouraged to look for black
office.
And interestingly enough, therewas a right across the street
from me in Fayetteville onGillespie Street was the home of
(07:59):
an an author, an AfricanAmerican author named Charles
Waddell Chestnut. His sisterswould and the other neighbors
too would constantly encourageme to read and they were always
giving me books to read.
T. J. (08:15):
Okay. That's not bad.
William (08:17):
Of course, now, some of these books were a little bit
out of my range but I triedanyway.
T. J. (08:25):
Tell me how important growing up the life of the
church was for you. You know, inthis day and age, you know,
church is seen as an option ormaybe it's not even an option
anymore. It's just not onpeople's radar but I know for a
lot of families, church wasintegral to their weekly
(08:49):
activities.
William (08:50):
The church was very important to me. As a matter of
fact, right on the little streetwhere I lived was a little
Methodist church. It was calledMaddox Memorial AME Zion Church.
That was right on the street.And as a child from the time
that I was little, I was able towalk.
(09:12):
I was encouraged and trained towalk down to Maddox on Sunday
morning for Sunday school andlater on stay for church. But
when I became of age such as theage of 12, 13, 14, where I could
walk on downtown by myself, Iwas encouraged to go through the
family's church, which wasHaymount Presbyterian Church,
(09:33):
USA. That was an amazing unusualexperience in that. I think the
folks kind of catered to me alittle bit because of my father
being a former Presbyterianminister.
T. J. (09:51):
What kind of things did they do to sort of cater or
favor you?
William (09:57):
Well, one example was like being being elected to go
to summer camp.
T. J. (10:02):
Okay.
William (10:03):
And the church took care of it. One of one of one
another example was beingselected for certain positions
in the youth fellowship such asbeing an usher, singing in the
young people's choir, littlespeaking engagements all the
time. All all the time withplays and all that.
T. J. (10:27):
During your teenage years, how well did your faith
carry over into the otheraspects of your life? I mean,
did you have faith conversationswhen you were in school or when
you were outdoors or in othersettings in the town or or were
those considered kind of likeseparate things?
William (10:48):
No, it was always a part. I remember. It's some
interesting that you should askthat. I remember once you're
getting into a fight withanother little felon, I don't
know why.
T. J. (10:59):
How old were you?
William (11:00):
Oh, maybe 14, 13. I don't know. Mhmm. But I remember
one of the persons yelling fromthe sideline, Howard, and I was
called Howard then after myfather, my deceased father,
Howard Montague. That was myfull name as they called my full
name, William Howard MontagueJunior.
(11:21):
But I was always addressed asHoward. Alright. But I remember
this young lady yelling out fromthe sidelines, Howard, you know
better than that. You know,somebody's fighting. Your
grandma and granddaddy taughtyou better than that, whatever.
You know?
T. J. (11:36):
Well, that wasn't helping you win the fight. No.
William (11:38):
It was not. But it was good because I can remember it
was very convenient because Ihad a I had a metal swagger
stick. I don't know if you everseen one of these military
swagger sticks.
T. J. (11:54):
No. Like for a horse or?
William (11:56):
No. We were located close to Fort Bragg.
T. J. (12:01):
Okay.
William (12:01):
And so some of the little stores out in the city
sold military memorabilia andjump whatever, but I remember
this little swagger stick wasmade of one end was the butt end
of a 50 caliber shell, and thethe blunt point was actual
(12:24):
actual shell, and it wasattached to a metal rod in the
center. Actually, it could'vehurt you if you hit somebody
with it.
T. J. (12:32):
So you're carrying this around?
William (12:34):
I don't know why, but I was carrying the swagger stick
around, and I got into a fightand almost used it on the guy's
head, which would have beendisastrous. But I remember
getting into this fight, Iremember this young lady yelling
from the sidelines, Howard, youdon't need to be doing this. You
know, your grandparents wouldn'tlike it. You're not supposed to
(12:55):
do. Yeah.
And then they said, you're gonnabe a preacher. Yeah. Okay.
T. J. (13:01):
It's funny that that's what you recall in a fist fight
because normally, I think of thefist fights that I was in. I
don't remember the what washappening around me. I just
remember that, that moment andwho I fought and who won and who
lost. And, but you remembersomeone calling out early on
(13:25):
early on, hey, this is not you.
William (13:27):
Yeah. This is not you. Right. Yeah.
T. J. (13:33):
Well, after you graduated high school
William (13:35):
Well, that's another thing. My high school experience
in Fayetteville was withelementary, junior high, and
part of the high school. But inthe tenth grade, I went to a
Presbyterian private schoolwhere you lived and worked on
(13:58):
the farm down in Burke County,Georgia.
T. J. (14:02):
Okay.
William (14:03):
The school was named Boggs Academy, b o g g s. Boggs
Academy and it was aPresbyterian private prep
school. At the time, this was inthe late 50s and going into this
1960.
T. J. (14:22):
Just just for boys, males?
William (14:23):
No, this was a school.
T. J. (14:25):
Okay.
William (14:25):
Was it integrated? No, it was not. No schools that, are
you kidding? Oh, this was in thefifties. No, it was a black
school.
Okay. Yeah.
T. J. (14:33):
Why? I didn't want to age you out. I didn't know.
William (14:36):
Well, I'm already 82. So, what else? Yeah. 82 and
counting, by the way. Alright.
Boggs Academy. Boggs Academylocated in in the address
located Keysville, Georgia.However, Boggs was roughly about
10 miles from a little towncalled Waynesboro, Georgia. It
(15:01):
was in the middle in the middleand strictly the middle of
nowhere with a a severalhundreds of acres of farmland,
and the school operated on theidea of student labor. Student
labor provided labor for thefarm, which grew mostly all of
(15:25):
the foods that we ate, includingthe pork and the beef, and, of
course, the other foods whichcould be canned.
We had a canning plant. Theywere these foods were cooked and
served in the dining hall. Thestudents provided all the labor
for all this, by the way. Andwhen we weren't working, we were
(15:47):
in school or in church. Alright.
T. J. (15:51):
How did you get connected to Boggs Academy?
William (15:54):
Boggs was a Presbyterian school. My mother
was teaching in Burke County,Georgia, Waynesboro, and she
knew about it from thecommunity. And she decided later
on that this would be anexcellent place for me to be,
especially as I was growing upbecause it would hopefully keep
(16:15):
me out of trouble.
T. J. (16:16):
Did it work?
William (16:17):
Yeah. It did work.
T. J. (16:20):
So, it sounds like your life was pretty regimented
during your high school years.
William (16:26):
It was regimented.
T. J. (16:27):
And that prepared you for the military.
William (16:31):
No, it prepared me for Knoxville College.
T. J. (16:33):
Oh, okay.
William (16:34):
Even though I did want to go into the military which
happened after college. Boggspaved the way for me to go to
Knoxville College which was alsoanother Presbyterian USA College
located in Tennessee. Knoxville,by the way. And at Knoxville
College, I stayed the four yearsplus an extra semester to get
(17:00):
classes and education so that Icould get my teachings.
T. J. (17:03):
And so you got your teacher's certificate?
William (17:08):
I think I got my bachelor of science in education
with a major in history. Andthen I went to work of all
places with a a group that youknow well, Boy Scouts of America
as a as an assistant districtscout executive out of New York
City. Okay. And the firstborough I was assigned to, I'm
(17:30):
trying to think, was a little alittle group over in Brooklyn.
Yeah, that's right because whenI came back from Vietnam, I was
assigned to the Bronx.
T. J. (17:40):
Alright. So, you went straight from Knoxville College
to New York? Yes. So, what achange. You you.
Well. So, you went from NorthCarolina to Georgia to
Tennessee, East Tennessee, andthen to a large city like
Brooklyn.
William (17:58):
Well, it wasn't that hard to do because one of the
things I did during the summersfor college for work study was I
was fortunate to keep my gradesup enough to be selected for one
of the railroad jobs at the timewhich was a dining car waiter.
T. J. (18:21):
Okay.
William (18:22):
And that is if you kept your grades up.
T. J. (18:25):
So you would do this during the summer?
William (18:27):
During the summertime. At first, for the first three
summers of 1961, '62, '63, andI'm thinking part of '64. I
worked for Union PacificRailroad out of Ogden, based out
of Ogden, Utah, and that took meall the way down to Los Angeles,
(18:54):
California. We also had runsrunning from Ogden to Las Vegas,
Nevada, and then we had one runfrom Ogden down to Los Angeles
back to St. Louis, and thenback.
(19:19):
And then we had some time to runrun from Ogden to Chicago and
back. And anywhere else thetrain wanna run.
T. J. (19:26):
Tell me more about life on a dining car. So did you
sleep in the in the dining car?What what was
William (19:31):
the first time? Sleep in the dining car. Believe it or
not, the railroad at that timehad what they called a dormitory
car. Okay. It was a specialrailroad car that had rooms in
it.
When I look at this cabinsometimes, I think I remember
the space. The space was highlycramped. It was a four guys, so
(19:54):
a little space, and there was awashbasin in the center Okay.
Between the bunks. That's whereyou had to clean up in the
morning.
Unfortunately, Union Pacific didnot have showers. That was only
on the sometimes some of theWestern railroads like Southern
(20:16):
Pacific.
T. J. (20:17):
Alright.
William (20:17):
Where the water's always cold.
T. J. (20:19):
Well, did you have like a little locker to keep your stuff
in or?
William (20:22):
No, you had just you you stuff your your personal
items were in a little suitcaseand you took them up to the
little room you were assigned toand they normally went under the
bed, under the bunks.
T. J. (20:35):
Okay.
William (20:35):
And you didn't carry that much with you on the trip.
Sure. Now, change change ofclothes.
T. J. (20:39):
So how long would the run be? So how long would you be on
the train in between breaks?
William (20:44):
The average run would be sometimes two to three,
sometimes four days.
T. J. (20:55):
How this is gonna be a strange question. But how did
you keep your your work clothespressed and clean and because
you're working all day in it,multiple meals.
William (21:07):
The railroad provided a jacket, and you carried your
underwear, two or three pairs ofblack pants. And these things
stayed fresh out because whatyou would do was when you made
up your bunk in the morning, youwould fold your pants and put
(21:32):
them under your pillow. And theweight of that kept your pants
kinda pressed.
T. J. (21:39):
When you stopped in the city, you know, and and had your
day off, did they providehousing for you then? Yes.
William (21:48):
For example, when we did the run from Ogden, Utah
down to Los Angeles, at onetime, we were in Los Angeles for
two days.
T. J. (21:59):
Okay.
William (21:59):
So, that means the railroad gave you a hotel room.
Right. Where all the crusade.And leaving and getting back on
the train and crossing them backover from Los Angeles all the
way into Saint Louis, Missouri.You had another hotel room in
Saint Louis.
However, the St. Louis shop wasone night only. And then going
(22:22):
down to Las Vegas, it wasnormally one night overnight.
And I'm trying to think whereverelse was normally one or two
nights.
T. J. (22:32):
So this summer job gave you the opportunity to travel
big parts of the country, but italso gave you the opportunity to
meet people and interact withpeople. Any stories stick out?
Very much.
William (22:49):
Sometimes I had to I had to get used and put up with
the racism of being called boy,which was impolite and mean.
And, also, I had to train myselfnot to overreact. Let's go ahead
and serve the customer. And Iadopted the attitude. I'm gonna
(23:12):
look at you today, but I'm notgonna see you anymore, which was
sometime wrong.
You're see them again.
T. J. (23:19):
Yeah. That does help when dealing with difficult people.
The ability to be able to go,okay, my interaction with you is
limited because of travel orwork or, or whatever it may be.
Does sort of soften it a bit,that it's not a long term
toleration to rudeness or racismor in some cases even just evil.
(23:44):
It'd be like, I only have todeal with this evil for a short
period of time.
William (23:48):
Right. Or you could get even with them sometimes by
putting a little extra hot saucein the in the salad dressing or
whatever. That's mean butwhatever. Well,
T. J. (24:00):
I don't know if I promote that, but it does. I, I imagine
temporarily sort of, satisfy.Yeah. The soul.
William (24:09):
It did.
T. J. (24:09):
Temporarily. What, what other interesting experiences
did you have during your diningcar and and really just as a
young man? Because at thispoint, you're a young man.
You're an adult. You're inschool.
You're working during thesummer.
William (24:29):
Well, a lot of the work started at the high school
because at Boggs Academy, thestudents I stayed there during
the summers and worked on thefarm. At Boggs Academy, I was
assigned to the farm crew, whichmeans that which meant that I
had the responsibility of theentire growing process of a of
(24:55):
plants to include planting them,applying the fertilizer, praying
for rain, and sometimes whenwhen they when they concern the
beef herd that we weremaintaining on the on the little
ranch we had, myself and otherfellas had to rotate the cows to
(25:19):
different pastures and thatmeans turning into a crude
cowboy.
T. J. (25:23):
Alright, on foot or on horseback?
William (25:25):
Are you kidding? This was a little black school out in
the middle of the country. Wedidn't have any horses. Alright.
T. J. (25:32):
We had foot, feet. Okay. With dogs or without dogs?
William (25:36):
Oh, are you kidding too? Again? Right. We yelled at
the cows.
T. J. (25:44):
I'm learning so much. Okay.
William (25:47):
And also, we to literally take care of these
little animals. I rememberlearning such little things with
calves. Calves would developconditions called pink eye. So
that meant that as a youngwrangler or whatever, you had to
grab the little calf around theneck, which was hard, put your
(26:11):
fingers in the nose and twistthe head to squirt medication in
the eyes for pink eye. And bythat time the cow careful step
on your foot, well, you know,that could be odd too and
hurting.
So the dining car work was quitethe contrast. Oh, yes. It was.
To You were clean and in a niceair conditioned dining car
(26:34):
inside.
T. J. (26:35):
Dealing with difficult people, but it's a trade off, I
guess, between difficultlivestock and
William (26:42):
It was, but you had to depend a lot on your memory,
remembering what customerswanted, talking with them
intelligently, of course, aboutthe meal I was prepared and so
forth, and also where you weregoing and all that.
T. J. (26:58):
Yeah. So tell me the trick on that. I never worked in
the restaurant industry. What isthe trick to be able to some
waiters are able to memorizewithout writing down what people
order, their drinks to the food,to how the food's prepared?
William (27:15):
Well, one of the good things was that the menus on the
railroad were always standard.So if you were on a Chicago to
Los Angeles or Chicago to St.Louis or from Ogden, say
whatever, You knew what themenus were and you got used to
that.
T. J. (27:35):
Okay.
William (27:36):
Now, sometime when it came to preparation, in the
event that someone would askyou, you learn how to talk to
the cooks. The railroad normallycarried about four cooks on a
standard when I'm usingexpression, I'm gonna use the
(27:58):
expression on a standard cracktrain. And when I say a crack
train, I'm talking about a oneof the best trains. On some of
the best trains, you would havea crew of four cooks and seven
waiters. And when you're doingyour little break chimes and
all, you were doing a little youdo you would do a little
(28:19):
inquiring.
How did you make this orwhatever? Mhmm. And, also, you
were right there in the rightacross from the kitchen in the
area called the pantry, and youcould see what was going on.
Also, the waiters had to partlyprepare some of the items such
as salads and sometimesdesserts.
T. J. (28:44):
When you work that hard and that long on the dining car
and you're a young man and youyou really you don't have a
permanent place to lay your headbecause of your work. Where is
where is your faith at thisplace and time in your life?
William (28:59):
You had I had you had to have a good faith in god.
Now, one of the advantages onthat was when you were in the
little town where you wereliving. For example, doing the
western runs with Union PacificRailroad, I lived in Ogden,
Utah. And I specificallyremember two little black
(29:22):
churches in the little town. Onewas a Baptist church and one was
a Methodist church.
And we took turns kind ofalternating between churches
depending on where you wereliving. For example, I remember
when I was living with missusBerliner, she was an old
(29:47):
railroad widow who rented roomsout to college students. We went
to the Baptist Church becausethat's where she went.
T. J. (29:54):
Alright. Yeah. So help me in the place of chronology. So
you finish up at KnoxvilleCollege, and then you relocate
into Brooklyn for Scouting.Scouting.
So let's pick up from there, andcan you walk me through that?
William (30:14):
Getting into scouting, Boy Scouts of America at the
time was doing a superrecruiting job. Are you getting
warm in here? I'm good. Okay.Boardshelves of America was
doing a super recruiting job,and then the greater New York
councils, they realized thatthey needed to put a big
(30:36):
emphasis on hiring a group ofblack or African American
assistant district executivesbecause the if they wanted if
they were going to garner littleblack kids, especially in the
inner city, you had to have someblack executives.
So that's where it paid off. Andin order to start this, they
(31:04):
started a recruiting program atKnoxville College for the execs.
And what they did was they wouldjoin you up with a local
scouting unit to where youlearned a lot of the basics from
the of a volunteer level, fromthe executive level down to the
(31:25):
volunteer level of what theprogram was about fully.
T. J. (31:30):
What was it about that job that appealed to you?
William (31:35):
The job the appeal to me was the the meeting of
different people, learning allof the different nuances of what
scouting was about, being ableto talk to people on all
different levels. And that washighly important in New York
City.
T. J. (31:56):
Had you ever envisioned yourself working with, well, and
adults?
William (32:03):
Well I was not working with kids by the way.
T. J. (32:05):
So this was all This was strictly adults.
William (32:08):
My job dealt with recruiting volunteers, adult
volunteers to work with scoutingprograms and also finding viable
units such as a church or abusiness or a civic organization
(32:33):
to sponsor and maintain theunit.
T. J. (32:35):
Alright. So tell me, how does a transplant to Brooklyn go
out and recruit, folks who areworking jobs, trying to raise
their kids, and just trying tomake it. Maybe the scouts
William (32:54):
Well, what what I deal with. I did that through I did
that through becoming familiarwith the the volunteer units who
were going to sponsor a troop.Okay. For example, a church. And
I would meet with the churchofficials and take some time to
(33:17):
explain the program to them.
And then we would start and gofrom there. Okay. Or if it was a
business or a civic group, Iwould take the time to learn
something about the businessthey were doing and then get
involved that way.
T. J. (33:33):
Alright. So, you're taking your people skills that
you learned in part. From therailroad. From the railroad.
Yeah.
And then translating thatExactly like that. Right.
Because you gotta be sharp. Youhave to be quick. And and you're
also persuasive.
William (33:52):
Also what? Persuasive. Yeah. Another thing I forgot to
mention. During my collegeyears, I also worked at a little
neighborhood service station.
Okay, tell me more. So that wasconstantly meeting people and
pumping gas and doing littleminor mechanic work for the
(34:12):
vehicles. And so with with thewith the constant talking and
the interchange of ideas, thatwas a good way of learning. By
the way, the service stationarea was in Knoxville,
Tennessee.
T. J. (34:24):
Okay. Yeah. All right. Have you been by in years past
just to see what's on that lot?
William (34:31):
Yeah. As a matter of fact, it's interesting. The
service station is no longerthere. Some kind of business
facility has occupied thatentire corner.
T. J. (34:43):
Alright. At some point, and and kinda walk me through
this, you get into the militaryand Oh, I was happy to get in
the military. Okay. So so okay.Was there any more about the Boy
Scouts?
William (35:00):
Well, I tell you, Boy Shelves is okay. However, as I
kept on working and staying inNew York, I guess time became a
little bit disenchanting. And Ialways wanted to weigh out, but
I did not want to quit. You donot quit jobs. So, fortunately,
(35:22):
in January matter of fact,March, I can remember the date
well.
The 01/03/1967 was the date thatI was supposed to report to the
(35:44):
Whitehall Street InductionStation. And I remember that
date very well because I said,thank god for this. This got me
out of New York for three years,and then I went right back to
New York for reemploymentrights. However, it got me out
(36:05):
at the time.
T. J. (36:07):
So were you drafted or did you volunteer?
William (36:09):
I was drafted. And then once I got in, I decided and it
was I if I knew what I knew now,I would have chosen a different
MOS. After I got in, Ivolunteered for another year in
order to get the militaryoccupational skill of my choice
(36:34):
and what I thought was mychoice. My choice, as I was
reading the little literature onthe occupational skill, was I
looked at two words, heavyequipment. I did not look at the
(36:54):
capital letter initials beforethe heavy equipment.
And I remember we were in basictraining and I asked the one of
the sergeants. I said, is thisheavy equipment such as cranes
and dozers and pans and all ofthat? He said, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
(37:15):
Anything. I'm sure he'd agreewith anything. And I went ahead
and signed off on it. And thenext thing I know, I'm sitting
at Fort Lee, Virginia, which wasquartermaster heavy equipment,
which consisted of repairinglaundry units, field bakery
(37:41):
units, field laundry units, andfield petroleum dispensing
units, which involved a lot oflearning because you had to
learn small engines, hydraulics,I can just go a long list of
things. The school was twelveweeks long, by the way.
T. J. (38:04):
So you're a young man with a college degree and a full
time job, and you still getdrafted into Vietnam?
William (38:12):
It didn't matter. Didn't matter. It didn't matter.
You were on the draft list andyou were going to get drafted.
T. J. (38:21):
Solely because of your age.
William (38:23):
Solely because of your age and your number on the draft
lottery.
T. J. (38:31):
Did you watch the TV when those numbers would come up?
William (38:35):
I didn't know anything about lottery numbers on the
television.
T. J. (38:38):
Okay. I've seen footage of where that would be shown.
So, how were they was itannounced publicly or is you
just got it through?
William (38:47):
No, in my case, my my local board, my local draft
board was out of Waynesboro,Georgia because that's where I
had graduated from high schoolin in Burke County. Even though
you're up in Brooklyn. Yeah. Sothey had I had to constantly
notify them where I was. Mhmm.
And at the time, I was at shiftscout reservation up in Mendham,
(39:16):
New Jersey training to be anassistant district scout
executive. And I found theletters finally found me, and so
I reported finally to the draftstation in Brooklyn, New York,
Whitehall Street. I remember itwell right now, like yesterday.
(39:39):
And once once I did that, theygave me the physical and all
that, and I raised my righthand, took the oath, and next
thing you know, I'm in the army.But when I got in the army, when
they mentioned, if you takeanother year, you can get the
school of your choice.
They mentioned the equipment,but they didn't mention anything
about quartermaster equipment. Ijust looked at the heavy
(40:01):
equipment. Next thing I know,I'm dealing with all the things
that is previously mentioned.
T. J. (40:06):
You're right. Not exactly what you envisioned.
William (40:09):
What I envisioned. However, it turned out to be
okay because then I learnedsomething different. I learned
the automotive mechanics becauseI had to learn something about
engines. I learned hydrohydraulics. They had an
excellent course in electricity,plumbing, all of those little
(40:31):
things.
And at one time, before I hadturned 82 years old, I was
pretty good in maintaining myskills to do those little things
around the house. And, also, byknowing those skills, they were
excellent when I became acorrectional principal later on
(40:51):
in life.
T. J. (40:53):
Oh, man. There's so many paths your life has taken that I
haven't heard about. So I'm I'mexcited to hear to hear more. So
when you finished at Fort Lee
William (41:05):
Yeah.
T. J. (41:05):
Your twelve week training, then what happened?
William (41:08):
Well, somebody came along one day and said, you were
going to be detailed here as aninstructor. Okay. So for the
next few months, whatever, ayear, whatever it was, I've
forgotten. I stayed thereteaching and I was detailed to
teach POL, which was petroleum,oil, and lubricating equipment.
(41:32):
So you went straight fromstudent to instructor.
Right.
T. J. (41:36):
Alright. How many years were you in the military?
William (41:41):
If you look at the total number of years, including
the the reserve time, the totalof twenty seven. Wow.
T. J. (41:51):
Wow. So did you spend your whole time doing training
as an instructor?
William (41:59):
The whole actually, due to time, yes. I did. So after
you Well, except for Vietnam.
T. J. (42:06):
Oh, okay. Tell me more about Vietnam.
William (42:08):
Oh, Vietnam was a nice experience. I found out one day
that no, what happened? This isall started. Somebody made the
brilliant decision to move mysection of the school at Fort
(42:30):
Lee to Aberdeen Proving Ground,Maryland. Okay.
And so I was detailed to set upand get all of the equipment
ready in the shop, packaged andall that to send to Aberdeen
with the assumption that I wouldbe going to Aberdeen as an
(42:52):
instructor. When the move wasfinally completed, instead of
going to Aberdeen, I went toVietnam with only eight months
left on my enlistment.
T. J. (43:06):
Well, that must have been a surprise.
William (43:08):
Well, yeah, it was a surprise with the amount of
time, but get orders, you getorders. So you go to Vietnam.
And once I got to Vietnam,because of the experience, I was
assigned as the motor sergeantfor the battalion.
T. J. (43:28):
Where were you stationed at in Vietnam?
William (43:31):
Headquarters and headquarters company, ADA Supply
and Service Battalion in an areaclose to a little town called
Pleiku, P L E I K U, up northnear the Central Highlands. And
you spent your eight monthsthere? At Pleiku. At Motor pool.
(43:53):
What happened after eightmonths?
After eight months, I returnedto The United States to be
detailed out. What does thatmean? Bye.
T. J. (44:08):
Okay. What were your plans after that?
William (44:12):
My plans after that, because I was married at the
time, my plans after that was togo back to my old job and then
try to find something as soon aspossible into Jackson,
Tennessee. My because my wifeand my daughter that my baby
daughter and my newborn son wereinjection. I made sure before I
(44:36):
went to Vietnam that they camehome to her parents.
T. J. (44:40):
Okay.
William (44:41):
But in the event that something negative would have
happened to me, I want her to bearound a support system.
T. J. (44:46):
Sure. Like like you grew up
William (44:48):
in.
T. J. (44:48):
Yeah. Yeah. Had you been to Jackson prior? No. Yeah.
Alright. So you come back.You're in Jackson. What job did
you land?
William (45:01):
From New York to Jackson, I landed, of all
places, with the Jackson PoliceDepartment as a police officer.
And they told me at the outset,now you know that the
probationary period here is sixmonths, and we can terminate you
(45:22):
anytime during that six months.I guess that was a warning.
T. J. (45:28):
Before he even started. Right. Well, how did that six
months go?
William (45:34):
At the end of six months,
T. J. (45:35):
they terminated me. No kidding. Yeah.
William (45:40):
And then told me that I could find a job teaching in the
city. So what'd you do? Well, atthe time, my wife one day was in
Nashville taking an exam to workfor the state of Tennessee. And
while she was working, I waslooking for a job. And I
(46:02):
remember at the either theAndrew Jackson Building or
Rachel Jackson Building, Iforget which one.
I went up to the Eleventh Floor,and there was a sign that said,
department of correction. And Iwent in, had all my little
paperwork and my little cheapsuit on, and I introduced
(46:24):
myself. And I the only job Iknew about was correction was
correctional officer. And so Iwent in and inquired about other
things they had and the ladysaid, if you don't mind, just
wait here a minute and she wentnext door into the
Commissioner's Office and inthat meeting, at that moment,
(46:47):
there was the director ofeducation, commissioner of
correction, and one otherperson. I forget when.
And the next day, she sent me inthe room to meet with them. And
at the time, they had an openingat the Tennessee State
Penitentiary for a correctionalteacher. And so they asked me if
(47:08):
I was interested based on myexperience and I said, yes. And
so I was sent out to the mainprison. So.
For an interview.
T. J. (47:17):
Let me interrupt you just for a minute. Yes. So you walked
in without an appointment. Yes.You walked out with a full time
job.
Yes. Oh, that's pretty amazing.
William (47:26):
I look at it as divine intervention. I went out to the
main prison and interviewed withthe warden and the director of
treatment. Matter of fact, I Ican remember his name. His last
name was Childress Childress. Iwas hired as a teacher, and I
(47:50):
stayed there roughly for almostsix months before I transferred
down to the newest prison in thestate, was Tornish Center for
Youthful Offenders down in SA40.
As you go up in SA 40, you'llsee a sign on it now.
T. J. (48:07):
That's
William (48:07):
right. I guess it's there, I don't know. Anyway, I
got down to Tornish Center andthe principal started getting
into my case about going back toschool and getting my master's.
It was essentially, it workedobviously because I got my GI
(48:28):
bill started, enrolled atMemphis State, and I graduated
with my master master's degreein education and got certified
as a principal. But in themeantime, they were building
another prison in Memphis, and Iwas selected as a deputy warden.
T. J. (48:54):
What is the role of a deputy warden?
William (48:57):
To literally run the prison for the warden.
T. J. (49:00):
Wow. What year is this?
William (49:05):
Wow. Now you're getting into my mind because I'm
forgetting dates. What decade?That was in the that was in the
1970. Yeah.
Because I got started01/01/1971. Yeah. So this was
'70 I think it was about 1976.
T. J. (49:26):
Okay. Yeah. So you're a deputy warden in a Memphis
prison facility?
William (49:32):
It was a Memphis Correctional Center.
T. J. (49:34):
Okay. So tell me more about the prison life and the
role of a deputy warden.
William (49:43):
The role of a deputy warden in any prison, I don't
know about now, but back then,the ability to run the prison.
You had to take care of yoursecurity operation, your
treatment, and everything else.You had to do everything except
the business functions. For thebusiness functions, they had, at
that time, another associatewarden position of business
(50:05):
affairs, or whatever it wascalled, I forget.
T. J. (50:07):
So you're really running the daily operation from
staffing to prison? Staffing,security, food service,
everything. My goodness. Andthen somebody else did the
administrative type thing. Howlong were you there?
William (50:23):
I stayed at Memphis from 1971, about five years, and
then they changed the operationof the prison. So that's when I
reached back and pulled out theprincipal certificate that was
(50:44):
connected to the master's degreein education Mhmm. Became the
principal at the prison. I justthey what they did, they
abolished my position as deputywarden. So I became the
principal there for a fewmonths, and then I relocated up
to Western and see up in theNorthwest Corner near
Chipptonville to the newestprison up there, which was Lake
(51:07):
County Regional Prison asprincipal.
T. J. (51:13):
So you've got this for for a big chunk of your early
life, You've got all thistransition from school, going
back to school, various jobs.How did you keep grounded during
that time? Mentally,spiritually, That's a lot of
(51:34):
change in really a short periodof time.
William (51:36):
One, I knew who I was.
T. J. (51:38):
Maybe. Yeah.
William (51:39):
I knew who I was, and I knew what I wanted to do, which
was ultimately be able tomotivate and change somebody's
life.
T. J. (51:52):
Yeah. And I may be jumping ahead on this question,
but where does the ministrystart trickling into
William (52:02):
your life? In the ministry. Well, you gotta look
at this now. Realize that in myin my college years, initially,
the whole idea was to get abachelor's degree in order to go
to seminary. Okay.
(52:22):
And knowing that I wanted to bea preacher, this is when I
started the process of I'm goingto go to seminary but I'm going
to put it off until later on.And when I became a when I
became the deputy warden atMemphis, that allowed me to for
(52:42):
a small time to live in Jackson,and I became involved with the
Christian Methodist EpiscopalChurch because my wife at the
time who were now deceased was amember of the Christian
Methodist Episcopal Church Andthe Christian Methodist
Episcopal Church did notnecessarily at that time have a
(53:06):
seminary requirement for theirministers. Your college degree
was accepted, and they also hadsome training that they would
provide, but you did notnecessarily have to have a
seminary degree. But theseminary thing was on my mind in
that I am going to do this, butI'm going to do it later. So I
came over to the CME church, soChristian Methodist Episcopal
(53:29):
Church, and was graduallyordained after a bunch of
training.
And after being ordained, I wasassigned to a pair of rural
(53:51):
churches down in HardimanCounty.
T. J. (53:56):
While still working.
William (53:57):
Yes, it was bi vocational. Yeah. Which is also
along my line too. Yeah. Becauselooking at my father, I didn't
look at my father, but listeningto my mother, I did not want to
be dependent on a church for aliving.
(54:19):
Mhmm. I wanted to work and alsotake care of church business and
preach. In other words, a bivocational minister. That's
always been my thoughts.
T. J. (54:32):
Right. Okay. So your home was in the Jackson area? Yes.
You commuted to the Memphisarea?
William (54:42):
I did until I this will be funny for you. Until I found
a space, a living space in theprison.
T. J. (54:52):
Oh, okay. Yeah. Alright. So, you were able to spend the
night there.
William (54:58):
Yeah, not only the nights. I spent the days, the
weeks, and everything elsethere.
T. J. (55:01):
So, you never left work.
William (55:03):
No, I never, you're exactly right. I never left
work. Okay.
T. J. (55:09):
Tell me about your experience in the Christian
Methodist Episcopal Church.
William (55:14):
Experience in the Christian Methodist Episcopal
Church started at Mother LibertyCME Church which is here in
Jackson. Mhmm. Assisting the atthe time assisting the minister.
As a local preacher. A localpreacher was a position for an
(55:37):
aspiring minister in the CMEchurch.
In other words, working as aministerial assistant with
periodically being given theassignment to do sermons and all
of that. Kinda like practice.Yeah. Practice.
T. J. (55:53):
Kinda fill out or feel the role and and see the role.
You would go
William (55:58):
out with the minister to visit those who were sick.
You would also sit in toofficial church meetings and see
what was going on fully.
T. J. (56:07):
Interesting. So, it's kind of like a mentorship. It
was
William (56:10):
a very good mentorship. Okay.
T. J. (56:12):
That that would be helpful. Yeah. Yeah. Alright.
How did you get tied in to theCumberland Presbyterian Church
in America?
William (56:23):
I got tied into the Cumberland Presbyterian Church
in America after being in theCME church for several years.
And I was here in Jackson, and Ifound out that Mount Tabor
Cumberland Presbyterian Churchin America had a vacancy. And so
(56:45):
I went to visit the session oneevening when they were having
their meeting and found out howI could cross over. And doing
that after doing that, I wrotemy bishop a letter and told him
my interests and also myinterest in eventually getting a
(57:09):
chance to go to seminary.
T. J. (57:11):
Mhmm.
William (57:11):
Since we had Memphis Theological nearby. And he
signed off on my transfer. Andthen I came over to the
Cumberland Presbyterian Churchand was ordained into the
(57:34):
gradually ordained into aministerial practice.
T. J. (57:40):
And so your first call in the Cumberland Presbyterian
Church was at Mount Tabor. Yes,it was. That's amazing. What was
your attraction to theCumberland Presbyterian Church?
William (57:57):
One of the attractions of the Cumberland Presbyterian
Church was the fact that theCumberland Presbyterian Church
had a seminary in Memphis,Tennessee.
T. J. (58:06):
Going back to education. Yes. High value of education.
Right.
William (58:09):
And my intent to go to seminary. That was the main
issue. And what was sointeresting, once I became
ordained and was fastening MountTabor, I remember inquiring at
(58:29):
Memphis Theological, and Iforget who the I forget who was
on the other end of thetelephone. There's somebody
still there now that I know. Andhe informed me that as an
ordained minister, that theCumberland Presbyterian Church
(58:52):
would pick up the tab for megoing to seminary.
Mhmm. And when he said that, Isaid, in my mind, praise god. So
for the first few years ofpastoring at Mount Shabbat, I
was also a seminary student.
T. J. (59:12):
Okay. So you you served the church and was also a
student. Were you still workingin the correctional field?
William (59:26):
No. By that time, I'm thinking that I had recharged
from corrections. Okay. Yeah.
T. J. (59:34):
So, what decade are we in for you to be a seminary student
and serve a Mount Tabor?
William (59:39):
We are into the nineteen eighties, I'm thinking.
T. J. (59:47):
Alright. So your children are getting a little bit older.
They're older. And so what wasit like to be able to serve the
Cumberland Presbyterian churchinto the eighties nineties? And
now in this new century, how hasit changed?
(01:00:07):
How was it say that again,please? How has the Cumberland
Presbyterian church changed fromyour introduction in the
nineteen eighties into thenineties and now in this new
century?
William (01:00:19):
The change is not that the liturgy and all that, they
have they have not been thatthat many so called changes.
Mhmm. The hymns, I was very muchfamiliar with and all that
because I grew up in aPresbyterian church. Mhmm. So
(01:00:40):
that bounced back.
The part of the liturgy, I hadgrown up with that, so that
didn't change. Mhmm. So it's allthe same.
T. J. (01:00:54):
From your perspective, what are some of the best
characteristics of theCumberland Presbyterian Church?
William (01:01:03):
Some of the best characteristics of the
Cumberland Presbyterian Churchis I think there is a bit more
freedom for the ministers asopposed to the Methodist system.
In the Methodist system, you'realways concerned about the
(01:01:25):
hierarchy with the bishopsystem. In the Cumberland
Presbyterian Church, you knowthat the church hierarchy is
going to be concerned primarilywith the church officials
themselves right there withinthat local church. And then when
(01:01:49):
it comes to the presbytery andthe senators and all of these
things, that's that's with thechurch but it's also outside the
main church body. Right.
T. J. (01:02:00):
So, there's a connection there and yet there's still some
self autonomy. Yes. As well.It's a it's a beautiful balance
as opposed to maybe a morehierarchical situation. What
hopes do you have for theCumberland Presbyterian Church
(01:02:20):
looking into the future?
William (01:02:22):
Looking into the future, I would like to see the
Cumberland Presbyterian Churchas simply one body. Cumberland
Presbyterian Church Mhmm. Asopposed to Cumberland
Presbyterian Church in Americaand Cumberland Presbyterian
Church. Just one body ofChristians in service to god and
(01:02:44):
neighbor. Yes.
That's what I would love to see.
T. J. (01:02:48):
Me too. Me too. Reverend Montague, you have so many so
much input and you're still soactive in the Cumberland
Presbyterian church. Do you mindjust kind of talking about the
different areas of of yourministry? For example, I'll I'll
(01:03:10):
start you off.
When I come over to your houseto record this, you're preparing
to be to instruct at the programof alternate studies. You're a
longtime instructor, for theintroduction to the Bible. Yes.
So that's just one little pieceof you being active in ministry.
What else are you doing?
(01:03:31):
Which, by the way, is not alittle piece. Being an
instructor at Program ofAlternate Studies is.
William (01:03:35):
At this time in my life, at this time in my life,
that is all that I'm doing asfar as outside the church
itself. As a matter of fact,right now, I am not actively
engaged in a church ministryitself. I think I'm a little too
old for that now. Okay. But theopportunity to work with and to
(01:04:04):
help instruct new incomingministers to me is a blessing.
Mhmm. I go over that littlecurriculum every year to make
sure that it is upgraded to thecurrent time. As a matter of
fact, when we were coming downhere, you saw my two
(01:04:25):
interpreters' Bibles that I wasbringing back to the cabin.
Yeah. One is the most recentissue, and one is an older
issue.
The older issue that you see upthere right here, the two books
right here on top of the thing.
T. J. (01:04:38):
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
William (01:04:39):
The older issue, believe it or not, is a gift
from my father's classmate inthe back in the forties. He was
my father's classmate up atLincoln University, and he kept
those in his library that justsits down here on the shelf. He
(01:04:59):
kept those in his library andtold me one day when I paid a
visit to him that those were mybooks when he died. And after
his death and funeral, Iremember going up to
Pennsylvania right outside ofPhiladelphia and picking up
those interpretive Bibles andshipping them back to Jackson.
(01:05:22):
Mhmm.
Now that's an older set. But ontop of that is the latest
version, the new interpretiveBible, and I eventually when I
was in seminary down at MTS,ordered me a set so that I could
stay on top of everything. Alongwith the other books I've got in
here. I've got books of everysort in here.
T. J. (01:05:41):
Yeah, just for those who are listening for perspective,
we, we are in a room that allthe walls have books from floor
to ceiling. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'mlooking around right now. Well,
let's not sell yourself short.
So you teach at the program ofalternate studies. You mentioned
(01:06:05):
just a moment ago, and I want tokind of parse this out a bit. So
in a presbytery meeting once ayear during communications, you
read part of the catalog of theclasses being offered with the
program of alternate studies.Yeah. Even if New Hopewell
Presbytery doesn't have acurrent, candidate or licensure
(01:06:30):
for ministry, you're alwaysencouraging the presbytery that,
Hey, you can come and attendthese classes.
William (01:06:38):
Yeah.
T. J. (01:06:38):
I This is do what's available. I do bet. And it's
not far away from, well, matterof fact, Bethel University,
where program of alternatestudies is, holds its courses is
in the bounds of this verypresbytery. I've always admired
that. And you've been a chair ofthe committee on ministry as
(01:06:59):
well.
So that's where I was leadingyou in my question is you were
more active and more involvedthan, than I think you give
credit for.
William (01:07:10):
I don't look at it that way.
T. J. (01:07:17):
What else would you like to cover that we haven't touched
on?
William (01:07:23):
If you take some time to read your bible and also back
up with your faith, in the bookof Genesis chapter six, god puts
a life expectancy for humans atone twenty. And I think that is
(01:07:49):
a high possibility for us if wewere to change our ways of
thinking, our ways of eating,our attitudes toward each other,
(01:08:11):
and our overall attitude towardlife in general. And I believe
that we can gradually reachgod's promise by going out there
and doing some things, andthat's what I wanna do. And I
tell people that I'm gonna bearound for a while just to make
(01:08:33):
you mad. I'm gonna be around fora while.
I won't be here for a long time,and this is why I am acquiring
and by the way, most of thesebooks I have read. This is why
I'm acquiring others. I've got alot of books up to the house.
I'm still reading. Mhmm.
And anytime I get theopportunity to talk to people
(01:08:56):
and lead and change somebody'slife, I want to do the same
thing because God has allowed meto be influenced and supported
by others, and I think it's timenow at age 82 that I try to give
(01:09:18):
back a little of that which Ihave been given.
T. J. (01:09:21):
I appreciate you giving me your time inviting me to your
home for us to do thisrecording. You have been an
encouragement to me.
William (01:09:31):
Thank
T. J. (01:09:31):
you. Since I've known you. We're going on ten years.
William (01:09:35):
That long?
T. J. (01:09:36):
Yes, sir. Wow. Yeah. Maybe, maybe more. Let's just
say ten.
We'll round it down or up toten. And you've been an
encouragement to me and, you'vehelped me along the way. And
I've picked up bits and piecesof your faith, over the years,
(01:09:57):
but I thought it would behelpful if we sat down like we
are now and just giving you theopportunity to kind of walk me
through, your life and yourministry. Reverend Montague, I
like asking my guests, for thispodcast, what are you reading
now? And since we're surroundedby books, it seems like a highly
(01:10:20):
appropriate question to ask you.
William (01:10:22):
Well, it's interesting that you would ask this because
those books that you're talkingabout that I am reading up at
the house right now.
T. J. (01:10:28):
Mhmm.
William (01:10:28):
And I can't think of the I can't think of the titles
nor can I think of the author'sname? But the author, by the
way, is a Jewish author, and alot of his writing is is highly
is highly fictional, but it isusing a lot of the Old Testament
(01:10:49):
scripture. And what isinteresting is that I can relate
to that because as I'm reading,I can see where he's going with
that. It's kind of prophetic.
T. J. (01:11:04):
Do you read stuff just for pleasure?
William (01:11:07):
Now, I do. Yeah. I don't I thank god I don't have
to go to school anymore.
T. J. (01:11:12):
Well, a lot of times for ministers and instructors. Yeah.
You know, in preparation for asermon or preparation for
teaching a class or for yourwork, for your ministry, you
you're kind of reading butyou're reading for someone else.
William (01:11:28):
Well, on on sermon, on on sermon preparation, my
reading would go strictly withstrictly Bible. Mhmm. And I can
go into that. As a matter offact, if you turn around and
look up top, right under thehorn up there, that's a sack of
old old sermons.
T. J. (01:11:48):
No kidding.
William (01:11:48):
Yeah. That's a sack of em.
T. J. (01:11:50):
So, do you like, do you use a manuscript or do you do
bullet points?
William (01:11:56):
That's a manuscript. Okay. Right.
T. J. (01:11:59):
I have found in my ministry that I've sort of ebb
and flow. Sometimes, I in thepast, I've just had note cards.
Sometimes, I might just havelittle bullet points. Right.
Themes.
Right. And then on otheroccasions, it will just be full
manuscript.
William (01:12:14):
For full manuscript. Yeah. Because I can always go
back to that for otherreferences and I can always go
back to those and revise themfor an ongoing sermon. That's
true. Yeah.
T. J. (01:12:25):
Yeah. I've done that as well. Thank you for your time. I
appreciate you, yourhospitality, your graciousness,
and, and most importantly, I'veenjoyed hearing your faith
journey.
William (01:12:41):
Thank you. Thank you.
T. J. (01:12:43):
Thank you for listening to this episode of Cumberland
Road. Doctor. Montagueintroduced me to worlds in which
I am not aware of, and I'mgrateful for it. He's been very
instrumental in my ministry inboth the Cumberland Presbyterian
Church and in the CumberlandPresbyterian Church in America.
(01:13:06):
One takeaway from ourconversation is how important it
is of knowing who you are. Inclosing is an excerpt from Maya
Angelou's poem, Still I Rise. Ontough days, this excerpt comes
to my mind. You may shoot mewith your words. You may cut me
(01:13:31):
with your eyes. You may kill mewith your hatefulness, but still
like air, I'll rise. Thanks forlistening.
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