2 Professional Artists, Two Dramatic Style Changes: What We Learned

Show Notes: https://hyperluxmagazine.com/2-professional-artists-two-dramatic-style-changes-what-we-learned/

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Hello, wonderful humans, and welcome back to the
Curated Muse podcast.
And today I have Michael DeVennawith us.
It is not just me this time, andit's not an interview.
Michael is a co-host and a partof the gallery and magazine, and
we'll come on here and we willchat about things that we

(00:22):
normally chat about in theprivacy of our own studio on a
more public platform.
And today we are going to talkabout changing styles.
We did do another episode notthat long ago about that, but it
was more of a general discussionabout it rather than talking
about it as two artists.

(00:42):
Michael and I have both hadlong-term careers where we've
had long-term styles that havedefined us as artists, as
professional artists in thegallery world.
And we both shifted at a verysimilar time.
The difference between Michaeland I, though, is he took a
really big break for a few yearsto be able to move away from the

(01:06):
world and explore hiscreativity.
Mine was more based in I becamenot allergic to all the mediums
in the world, which is great.
Worrying about dying if I touchpaint.
And we both started our ownexploration.
So in this podcast...
We are going to talk about thisbecause we talk about it

(01:27):
together and we feel like as twoartists that are going through
something similar, we can sharethis with our audience.
So let's go ahead and welcomeMichael to his first podcast
ever as a host and as kind of aguest.
You're like a guest host, like aghost host.
So as we're sitting here staringat each other, because clearly

(01:50):
we've never done this before.

SPEAKER_01 (01:51):
As we do daily.

SPEAKER_00 (01:53):
As we do daily.
Yeah, so talk about yourjourney.
It's a real interesting one.

SPEAKER_01 (01:58):
For me, the shift was watching it happen to a lot
of people through the years Iknew and couldn't really relate
because I was so locked into myown journey, my own art
practice.
And I just personally hit apoint after many, many years,

(02:18):
over a decade, of...
missing who I was 20 years ago,which was a painter and involved
with a certain kind of paintingand a certain kind of practice
that I let go becauseillustration became part of the
forefront unexpectedly.
And that was a great ride.
And I don't know, I think partof it was age, part of it was

(02:42):
personal contemplations thathappened all at once.
And it really made me thinkabout what I wanted.
outside the career aspect of it,which had been my life.
You know, the obligations thatwe all go through of galleries,
the business side of it, themonetary side of it and the

(03:03):
growth side of it.
And it just hit a wall.
And for me, I took some time offfor almost two years And I went
back to painting, and I wentback to a new practice, and I
went back to just letting thingsgo, almost like I was a child
again.
Not being influenced, notthinking about anything, not
following the art world at all,really.

SPEAKER_00 (03:22):
Trying a lot of art supplies.

SPEAKER_01 (03:24):
Trying every art supply that I've ever known
since I was a kid, includingcrayons.
And it led me to touch uponwhere I left off nearly 20 years
ago, like I said.
And that was...
the spawning effort of it all,where it led me to where I am

(03:44):
now, which is maybe not what Iexpected or what a lot of people
expected, but it is definitelythe most, I don't even know what
a good adjective would be.
It's the most complimentary tomy personality of a place I
could have been that I didn'tknow that I was lacking all

(04:06):
these years.
And so that in short is is myjourney and why we do talk about
so much because it's still afteri mean it's a little over a year
but it's been a two two and ahalf year process it still blows
my mind every day like what am idoing why am i here what am i

(04:28):
creating and it's kind ofsurreal but it feels like home
and so that's why i keep going

SPEAKER_00 (04:34):
So you're still second guessing yourself, even
though we sit in the studio andyou feel really good about what
you're doing and like, enjoy theprocess.
You're constantly secondguessing yourself all the time,
which is kind of hard to watch.
And I think we both do that.
But for you, like, where doesthe second guessing come from in
that?
If you feel like it's so home,like,

SPEAKER_01 (04:57):
I think, I think part of it has to do with the
The analogy I use mentally is,say that you want to get back on
track and get healthy, get fit,if you will.
And you start going to the gymor taking long walks and you
have goals.
And then you kind of detour andget kind of complacent and

(05:18):
you...
kind of fall off the wagon,right?
And so it starts to feel likeI'm falling off the wagon
because everything starts tobecome too easy, too simplified.
I can't identify with who I ambecause you still connect to who
you were or what people mighteven expect of you.
All those things come in all thetime.
It's just, you know, psychology101 just happens.

(05:40):
Doubt is there.
So for me, I feel like I have toquestion it.
I have to engage with doubt.
And sometimes it's pleasant,sometimes it's not.
It's not like I'm saving lives,I'm just creating artwork.
But it's at such a personallevel, almost a religious level,

(06:01):
that I have to give it massiverespect.
And so I just try to work withthe doubt and the challenges and
obstacles that pop up all thetime.
Because you can't slam decadestogether.
of being one kind of human beingwith one kind of philosophy and
certain kinds of ethics.
And then all of a suddenovernight, it shifts so

(06:22):
drastically that you're justgoing to figure it all out
within months or a year orwhatever that that doesn't
happen.
Maybe it does for some people,but for me, it doesn't.
So I kind of get off on theexperimentation process.
And sometimes it is about deepself-doubt and questioning
myself and feeling foolish.

(06:42):
And then other times it's like,I'm just a little kid and I'm
playing and it feels awesomebecause the sense of play is
where it all started.
And so that's where I go.
I try to remind myself it's thesense of play.
That's why I'm here.
That's why I'm doing this.
It's when I was happiest a longtime ago.
And to maintain this withlongevity, I'd have to keep that

(07:02):
in mind.

SPEAKER_00 (07:03):
And it's hard to have a sense of a play when
you're a professional artist.
I mean, I'm not saying there isan artist out there that can do
that, that their work is justplay.
but almost any career artiststhat I know, there's stress
behind it.
There's exhibitions andexpectations of fans and all of
that.
And then you also, I'm going tosay this too, you also pivot
back and forth.

(07:23):
Like you start into this newpath, but then you're like,
well, that other path had, had,you know, fans or, you know,
people got it.
And the minute you start likeshifting completely, and I'm not
talking adding a different colorpalette or something I'm
talking, Michael and I bothshifted completely.
Like I, It wouldn't even berecognized as each of our works.

(07:44):
I mean, some people say, yeah,it kind of does.
If you put the works next toeach other, you can see the hand
touched it.
But Michael went from completelyblack and white, super refined,
illustrative with gold to thesenonsensical, crazy colors.
And I've always been a littlebit more of a muted palette
person.
never really bright, just kindof more calm, chill colors.

(08:07):
And I'm also kind of likecircus.
So it's kind of like a circussideshow in our house.
Like we're like, okay.
And here comes the, what were wecalling that color that I was
using?
Like Sherbert.
It's just like, that's crazyamount of Sherbert.
And so you, you question itbecause sometimes the other work

(08:28):
for both of us maybe seemed alittle bit more serious or
seemed a little bit moreaccepting in the world, right?
Versus what we're doing now.
People are like, The heck isgoing on?
And when I started putting itout a couple years ago, I did go
back and forth.
I have been going back andforth.
I went back and forth with mysolo show just recently, where I

(08:50):
went back into more muted, moretechnical, rather than being
more experimental.
But during that process over thelast few years, I did have a
Patreon.
And when I basically posted,like, this is where I'm going to
be, you know, if you don't likethe bright colors, feel free to
leave.
I mean, of course, I didn't sayit like that.
But generally speaking, like,this is not a phase.

(09:11):
This is where I'm going to be.
I lost half of my Patreonfollowers.
So it's like, we have to decidewhether or not, and I mean,
like, you guys listening and us,Do we want to stick with the
work that gets the most supportand gets the most opportunities?
Or do we want to stick with thework that gives us the most
happiness?

(09:32):
And apparently, for a lot ofpeople, those worlds do not live
together.
They are mutually exclusive ofone another, which is
challenging.

SPEAKER_01 (09:45):
Yeah.
It's kind of symbiotic with howwe will often look at what's the
old adage of Question yourideologies, question your
beliefs, right?
And so with your creative world,I feel it's the same exact
thing, whether it's on apersonal level, spiritual level,
creative level.
Question what your ideologiesare.

(10:05):
Question what your goals are.
Question of why you're doingwhat you're doing.
How long have you been doing itand why?
Are you happy?
Are you content?
Is there something more?
Just dig deeper.
You never know what you'll find.

SPEAKER_00 (10:17):
Yeah, I agree.
It's a very, very true aspect.
Do you feel, and I'm asking youlike I don't live with you,
right?
What is the biggest reward thatyou get from like going after
the thing that you want, eventhough you're not getting the

(10:39):
likes or the response maybe fromgalleries and things that you
would hope being a professionalartist for so long?

SPEAKER_01 (10:46):
Honestly?
I kind of got a big kick out ofit, not right away, but probably
in this past year.
There's a joy that starts tohappen for me when you just
don't care anymore, you know.

SPEAKER_00 (11:07):
It's also an age thing.

SPEAKER_01 (11:08):
It's also an age thing.
Yeah, which is true because alot of people say that with
anything.
You get to a certain age, I'm aman of a certain age.

SPEAKER_00 (11:14):
You're a man of

SPEAKER_01 (11:15):
a certain age.
You just

SPEAKER_00 (11:17):
are.
A certain caliber of age.

SPEAKER_01 (11:19):
Yeah, you just don't care anymore.
And that's for good reason.
For me, that was part of it, Ithink.
It was taking it to a personallevel.

SPEAKER_00 (11:29):
I

SPEAKER_01 (11:30):
felt before, like, I don't know if you did, you'd
have to tell me.
I felt almost like a performer.
There was a lot.
It was like having a day job andbeing a performer and
entertainer where you'reexpected to do a certain line of
work, quality work, get paid forit and do it again.

SPEAKER_00 (11:47):
And maybe not get paid for it.

SPEAKER_01 (11:51):
Yeah.
That's

SPEAKER_00 (11:52):
the other thing too, right?
Because it's not like you have aguarantee that you're going to
get paid for it.

SPEAKER_01 (11:56):
No, you don't.
And that's always in the back ofyour mind.
But as we know at apsychological level, we know
that it's natural.
for the brain to evolve.
That's just neuroscience, right?
We have to evolve and learn andkeep going, especially with age
too.
The older you get, the more youlearn, the more interest you

(12:19):
have mentally and physically,the healthier you are.
And that applies to your art aswell.
And so for me, that was prettyevident that it was not growing.
It was stagnant.
I didn't realize it because youjust get used to it.
It's like a warm and fuzzyblanket.
It's what I do.
And then...
then you realize there'ssomething missing, you know,
it's like being in a badrelationship for a long time.

(12:41):
You realize there's somethingmissing.
I should probably check in.

SPEAKER_00 (12:44):
Yeah.
And there's nothing wrong.
Let's be clear.
There's nothing wrong withchanging, like not changing your
style or continuing to dothings, you know, that are just,
they feel right to you.
And not everybody needs to ship.
Some people will do the exactsame thing.
for the entirety of their life.
Right.
But there are others that liketo explore and grow, but then

(13:05):
feel within a box, especially ifthey are in a professional
atmosphere to not shake thingsup and not, you know, create any
sort of disconnect.
Cause it takes a long time tobecome a professional artist.
It's not an easy task to beexhibiting and doing that.
So then it's like, it feels veryfragile.
Like, you know, You don't wantto screw that up because not

(13:28):
everybody gets that opportunity.
It's an amazing place to be in,but also is it sucking your life
dry?
Are you just a vending machine?
Are you just producing the thingthat...
is expected of you.
And we talk about this all thetime, the difference between the
blue chip world and the mid-tierworld.
Mid-tier world has, you know,not all, again, everything we

(13:49):
talk about is, you know, ingeneral, generalization, it's
not a hundred percent, but a lotof mid-tier has this, they
expect artists to come to thetable with work that they
recognize because that's whatthey're going to give to
collectors as a gallery orcurator, right?
You expect a certain type ofcaliber of work, a certain
style, right?
Because if you go and you shiftyourself completely, your

(14:12):
collectors aren't going to bethere.
It's just the way it is.
Unless they're just radical.
I have one person like that,that every time I shift to do
something, they want a piece ofthe shift.
But then you look at the bluechip world, you know, like...
A lot of artists there arealways evolving and changing and
the collectors want new becausethat's really focused more on
investment than anything.

(14:32):
The new is like investablerather than the new is just
interesting and someone wants tobuy it.
And so that's kind of thedifference between those two
worlds where they can dowhatever they want and because
they have a monetary valueassociated with their name, it
doesn't matter what theyproduce.
But then in the mid-tier world,it's more about what you produce

(14:54):
doesn't matter match the caliberand subject matter, theme,
feeling, emotion that a typicalcollector would want so that
they can sell the work.
But it makes us wonder, like,are they happy?
Are they doing that because theylove it?
Are they doing it because theyhave guaranteed collectors, they
have guaranteed galleries, theyhave relationships that they

(15:17):
have spent 10 to 20 yearsbuilding?
It's scary to think aboutsomehow fracturing those
relationships.

SPEAKER_01 (15:24):
it's true in all aspects of the art world doesn't
matter which tier you're on orif you're a professional or not
but it is true from the very topit's just standard to know that
a lot is expected of you stay atan upper tier if you're part of
that gallery system to evolveevery season and learn.

(15:45):
It's embraced, it'sacknowledged, it's rewarded.
I've experienced that in my ownlittle way too.
And I also have had friends thathave been in different parts of
our world as myself experiencethat as well.
And so it's all relative to yourown experience, but it's
something worth looking into.

SPEAKER_00 (16:06):
So this episode ended up being longer than I
think we both thought it couldbe.
We could probably go on and onabout this because I think every
day we at least have an hourconversation about this over the
dinner table or in the studio.
But we will be back again withanother episode of the Curated
Muse podcast.

(16:27):
And I'm so excited this timearound doing a podcast to have a
co-host because I don'tnecessarily like talking to
myself all the time.

SPEAKER_01 (16:35):
it was a privilege to be here

SPEAKER_00 (16:40):
all right well everybody will see us again

SPEAKER_01 (16:42):
let's do it again