March 4, 2025 • 43 mins
Today's episode is an incredible conversation with Bec Griffiths, where we explore how she mixes her background in corporate marketing with her own personal artistry. Bec shares insights on marketing that feels genuine, true, and highly creative. We also discuss:
• How your curiosity is your superpower in business
• Why marketing and art might not be as different as you think
• Exploring her personal project "Multiplicity" and its themes of duality
• Tips for navigating marketing as an artist without feeling like a sell out
• Focusing on authenticity and truth as your marketing foundation
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Links:
Bec's Website
Bec's Current Class- The Art of Marketing
Follow LeAnna and Curating the Curious:
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Instagram: @curating.the.curious
@leanna_azzolini_photography
Website:
leannaazzoliniphoto.com
Click Here for: No Cherished Outcomes Sweatshirt and Tee!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Curating the Curious, the podcast that
celebrates staying curious inlife and never settling into a
box.
This show is for the creators,the seekers, the explorers, the
truth tellers and the foreverstudents of life, no matter what
age or stage you're currentlyat.
(00:22):
This is not as good as it gets,and it is never too late to
begin.
Join me as we explore all ofthe questions that come with the
idea of curiosity a place wherethe possibilities are endless
and you can always start again.
Today, I'm talking to BeckGriffiths.
(00:48):
Beck is a bit different than mytypical guest.
She works full-time incorporate marketing, but she
also mentors artists on how tomarket and sell their art
without feeling like they'reselling their soul.
I was actually lucky enough tohave taken her marketing class
back when she taught it a fewyears ago with Yam Palmer.
It was called Naked Marketingthen, and I can attest
(01:12):
personally that she will turnyou into a believer.
I really am excited about thisepisode because it's so useful
and she is so knowledgeable.
Useful and she is soknowledgeable.
She's someone who works fulltime in marketing and is also an
artist and has an artist heart.
(01:32):
While she knows all of thefoundations of true marketing,
she also knows how to help youmake a personal marketing plan
that can actually feel genuine,true and very creative, and
aside from all of that, she'sjust an amazing artist.
(01:53):
So now, without any further ado,here's Beck.
Every time, every time, I'vekind of like circled around an
interview with someone and we'vehad to reschedule, or like
timing's been off.
Whenever we do, I think, oh mygosh, this is the most perfect
(02:13):
timing ever.
So I have many, many thingsthat I want to ask you about
today, but before we discuss allof that, let's start with the
question that I ask everyone.
But before we discuss all ofthat, let's start with the
question that I ask everyone,and that is tell me the one book
or few that you believeeveryone should read, and why.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
I read that last night because you pre-sent it to
me and then I went oh, thatfeels really hard, I don't know
how to answer it.
And then I didn't come up withan answer.
So here's my answer on the fly,even though you gave me advance
notice.
But so here's my answer on thefly, even though you gave me
advance notice.
And I would say probably noteveryone, but I would say women
(02:56):
and or people who have hadchildren and have been in the
primary caregiver role might bea more appropriate way to say it
.
The book Night Bitch.
Have you read that?
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Yes, that was recommended by Laura Aziz.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Oh, yes.
So she and I spoke about itwhen I traveled with her, but we
did not read it on each other'srecommendation, but we have
both read it, and we both readit when our kids were at an
older stage, because the book isa mother grappling with how to
well, it's so interesting, isn'tit?
A mother grappling with how towell, it's so interesting, isn't
(03:27):
it?
So it's a mother grappling withparenting and letting go of
herself that she knewpre-parenting, which was very
connected to being an artist.
And the child is, I don't know,maybe less than three years old
, young anyway, and both of usread the book when our kids were
more like 11, 14.
So we were out of living thatvisceral experience, but it
(03:48):
definitely reconnected us to it.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Oh, me too, and the thing about it was, I remember,
thinking God, this would havehelped me so much to have read
this years ago.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Well, so that's the debate Laura and I were having.
I think it would have been tooraw.
I don't think I could have readit in those days.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Well, yeah, would I have.
I don't know if I would have.
That's a good point.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
But in hindsight it takes that premise of how much
have we let ourselves, our pastselves, be overtaken, I guess,
or consumed by a new importantthing in life?
But viscerally right Like it,does it in a really visceral and
(04:39):
pushes the boundaries of thatto the extreme.
Yes, it's a fascinating book,although I tried to watch the
movie and it didn't land andthen a friend of mine just said
don't bother, so I'm not goingto do the movie.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Well, yeah, that's usually the case, right, it's
just not usually the same.
Sometimes it is, but it's rare,yeah, yeah, oh, that's a good
one.
I'm glad that you brought thatup and I do agree.
And yeah, it's also aninteresting thought.
Would I have wanted to read itthen, because I don't think I
(05:12):
even realized what I wasexperiencing at that time.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Which is always the case, right, it's with hindsight
that we have the most clarity.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Yeah, yeah.
And what is your favorite quote?
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Okay, so this one I did fail at because I am not a
quote rememberer.
I do not.
I'm not one of those people whocarries quotes around, so but I
did after you had kind ofmentioned to me you were going
to ask, I guess my I was attunedto it and I saw one last night
that I wouldn't say is myfavorite, but I thought was
interesting, which talks aboutpeople's or it was from have you
(05:48):
heard of the Red Hand Files,the Nick Cave newsletter that he
sends out?
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Oh no, but Nick Cave yes.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Okay, so he sends.
I don't actually read it veryoften, but every time I see a
snippet of it or a version of itI go why do I not read this?
He's so articulate in thehumanity of all of us like it's
hard to explain, and he's gonethrough immense grief and is so
(06:15):
grounded in the way that heprocesses humanity that it's
interesting.
But anyway, it talks about hisreluctance to invalidate the
best of us in an attempt topunish the worst.
So to me that speaks of.
We spend so much time beatingourselves up for the bit that we
didn't do right, or the bitthat we're not doing well, or
(06:36):
the bit that we kind of areembarrassed that we should have
done differently.
It's such, it's such wastedtime to beat ourselves up about
the bits we're not doing well orwe're not doing perfectly or
we're not doing in a way that wefeel the most proud of.
But what that does, it's notonly time waste, it invalidates
(06:58):
all the things that are the bestin us.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Oh, I like that.
Yeah, I thought that was quitegood, and for some reason Nick
Cave keeps coming up and itmight just be that newsletter
that you're talking about.
Is it on Substack?
Speaker 2 (07:13):
I don't actually know what it's on, but you'd find it
.
It's called the Red Hand Files.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Okay, I'll look that up.
He keeps popping up.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Yeah, the universe is sending him to you for some
reason.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Yeah, exactly.
Another thing I wanted to talkabout is that something that
really draws me to what you dois the fact that you have a
full-time job in corporatemarketing and you do not do paid
art, so all of your creationsand personal projects are for
you and I like to focus on that.
(07:47):
I think that many of mylisteners fall into that
category and might not seethemselves as artists because of
that reason, or I'm also kindof fitting into that category
now, where I used to do the paidwork and I'm not.
I don't know.
It's really interesting to meand I want to know what moves
(08:09):
you to do these projects andthis work.
Is it coming from this need tocreate?
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Yeah, I think as I grew in my corporate career
there was less creativity in myday job, because I'm in
marketing and that does have alevel of creativity, but as you
get more senior it kind of isn'tday to day, and so I was
craving that and then I toyedwith doing paid sessions.
So I did do a couple of paidsessions, but the pragmatic I
(08:38):
had a pragmatic sensibilityabout financially I was better
off to spend my time gettingpaid doing something in a
corporate role which enabled meto keep doing art a friend of
mine jokingly talks about ashaving a corporate sponsor and
(08:58):
that resonates for me right,like that's amazing, yeah, and,
and it's not, I wouldn't do itif I didn't get fulfillment and
energy out of that career aswell.
Um, and I think that's often thecase for artists that they just
it, it would sap them and theenergy, the amount they gave,
(09:19):
the value wouldn't return.
But for me, I also find itfulfilling to work in a
corporate environment, so to meit made sense that that's where
I earn the money and thatenables me to create the art.
There's frustrations, obviously, like there's times where it
would be nice that I didn't haveto do a corporate job and I
(09:40):
could spend more time on the art, but in the main, for me that
balance works.
Yeah, that's not to say it'sthe right balance for other
people, but I have to.
The other thing that I'veobserved, though, because I'm
someone who is motivated by, Ithink, deadlines, is not quite
the right.
That kind of gives too muchsimplicity to it, but maybe I'm
(10:03):
trying to get better at beingmotivated by the process.
But I am somewhat motivated byan outcome or a intention that
I'm striving for.
I am sometimes.
I sometimes wish I was doing itfor paid work, because it would
force me to pick up the camera,yeah, whereas I've got to find
an intrinsic motivation outsideof needing to make money from it
(10:25):
.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
And have you always had this creative side of you?
You said that you studied it inschool.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Yeah, I did photography.
So I did art all the way uptill the end of school, which
for us is year 12.
But then I went into a creativeadvertising degree.
So it's, yes, definitely stillcreative.
Probably not art I wouldn'tpaint it as but definitely still
creative.
So I've always had a desire toexplore creativity.
(10:57):
I just think it's representedin different ways, so sometimes
it's through art and actually Ifind running a business creative
.
Yeah Well, you taught me thatwhen, I took Naked Marketing so
yes, but then I also.
When you ask that question, Ithink everyone is creative,
aren't they Like?
Speaker 1 (11:17):
we just all express it differently, exactly, and I
mean marketing is super creative?
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Yeah, I think so too.
I think so too.
I just came out of a sessionwith the students that I'm
teaching at the moment aboutmarketing.
That are all artists and I wastalking about that and you would
have heard that make you a goodartist, or that make you an
(11:48):
artist even are the same bitsthat make you good at marketing.
Curiosity, understanding ofhumanity, um wanting to put um
offers into the world, that kindof help people or add to
people's lives all of that isthe same right things that make
you good at marketing.
So to me, they'reinterconnected.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Yeah yeah, taking the marketing course with you and
Yan did open my eyes to seeingit in a different way, but I did
see it in that way already, way, but I did see it in that way
already.
I did because I kind of enjoyedback in the day, when Instagram
(12:32):
was fun, I did enjoy marketingmy courses that I was selling.
Things have changed, though,but I'm sure we'll get to that
later when I ask you more abouthow you get around all of that
stuff, because it's definitely,I think, on a lot of people's
minds right now.
Yeah, your personal projectcalled Multiplicity this one.
(12:53):
That really hit home for me bigtime, and I loved the video.
The video of it with the voicesof the women who you
photographed in the backgroundand beginning with the giggles,
but it's so contrasted with thephoto and it was just.
(13:15):
It really hit me the whole ideaof multiple roles, the societal
expectations, duality ofmultiple roles, the societal
expectations, duality this isall this stuff that I've been
wrestling with, I would say forseveral years right now.
How did you come up with thisproject and what was your aim in
(13:36):
creating it?
Speaker 2 (13:38):
So it was part of an intensive course that I was
doing.
So I did a 12-month mentorshipprogram with Kirsten Lewis oh,
okay, and she's very well knownfor her documentary work, but
this program was veryspecifically about.
It was called thePhotographer's Narrative and it
was definitely you didn't haveto be a documentary photographer
(14:02):
and that's not my skill set atall so it was much more about
creating narrative storiesthrough photography and as part
of that workshop she ran anin-person intensive week-long
retreat, for want of a betterword.
So we went to New Orleans andall of us had to to create, from
(14:25):
woe to go, an entire project,including an audio visual, which
is not my go-to medium toexhibit at the end of the week.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Oh, wow, okay, I did not know this.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Yeah, I really wish she still ran the course,
because it is phenomenal.
This is amazing, yeah, and sowe had, by that point, we had
studied with her for a year, sowe knew each other and her
incredibly well and in thecourse I had explored some of
those things.
But you tended to do like anassignment a month as opposed to
a long-term body of work.
(14:57):
And I think, just in general,I'm drawn to portraits, I'm
drawn to women's stories,stories, um, I have my own kind
of journey for one of anon-cliched word around.
How do I balance the opposingand conflicting ways that I'm
expected to turn up in the world?
(15:17):
How do I balance being soft andnurturing with being assertive
and direct and and and and?
There's a lot of impostersyndrome woven into it, which I
think is a very shared kind ofchallenge for lots of us.
Oh yeah, and then I have tocredit so many people because I
(15:39):
don't know about other people,but I'm a very collaborative
worker.
So, even though the work isfine and I created it, there are
so many mentors or discussionson the way that led me there.
So I also had a discussion withmy friend Rochelle, who's an
amazing artist in LA, englishborn but lives in LA, um, and
(15:59):
she helped me refine.
But how?
What kind of visualrepresentation could be a
through line?
No, I think I already hadthought about the lipstick, but
she just helped me refine kindof how to bring that to life in
the sessions.
And then created the sessionsand, because I knew it had to be
audio visual, recorded everyperson that I photographed
(16:22):
talking about the multiplicityof what happens in their life
and how they have to balancethat.
Yeah, and then Molly, who, umRaze, who is also a phenomenal
artist and has a lot of audiobackground, helped me edit that
into the um, the narrative ofthe um audio part of that video.
(16:48):
I loved that, yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
The whole the audio with the photos.
It's just not something thatyou normally see, and I was.
I was floored by it.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Oh, thank you.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
God, I hope everybody listens or watches this.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Well, that's the thing't it.
That I think and againsomething we're talking about in
marketing because it comes upso often as artists is when?
When do we have to sit and becomfortable with putting it out
there and accepting that maybeno one or three people are
impacted by it and no one else?
And I grapple with that becauseI'm someone who's an extrovert,
(17:30):
who feels the need to bevalidated by external opinions,
which I don't think is uncommon,but sometimes, actually, you
got to just turn up and make theout anyway.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
And I'm not always great at that to be completely
transparent, but I try, I'mtrying, and I'm not always great
at that, to be completelytransparent.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
But I'm trying I think about that a lot, you know
, just with the whole changesand engagement in social media,
You're kind of like, well, am Idoing this for the response or
am I?
Not yeah, I think I'm not, butthen I'm disappointed.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Yes, oh, my God, not.
Yeah, I think I'm not, but thenI'm disappointed.
Yes, oh, my god, my friendLaura and I.
So, laura, who you mentioned,who's a mutual friend of ours.
We, along with another friend,emma, ran a evening.
I was in London for a few weeks.
I saw that yeah, we ran anevening and that's the kind of
thing we spoke about.
It was just gathering femaleartists together and talking
(18:30):
about those things and they canfeel I can't think of the word
inconsequential or flippant, butthey're not.
They're things that we aregrappling with, that the world
today kind of invites us to takedifferent avenues and and the
choice that we make influencesnot only how we put art in the
(18:56):
world, but how we feel aboutputting art in the world, and
there's no answer.
I know right like there's noright answer?
Speaker 1 (19:03):
no, and it's funny because I left social media for
a while and I loved it.
I thought I was done and thensomehow I kind of returned back.
I think it was during theelection.
I was loving the Kamala stuffand it brought me back.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Oh, interesting, because I think a lot of people
switch off around the elections,right, because it just becomes
so much.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Well, they made it so hopeful you know, that I was
eating it up.
So I'm like okay, I'm back inhere, this is making me happy.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
But my whole point in bringing that up was that you
know, I've lost so much of myaudience or the engagement, and
when I do turn up now it's.
I know that there's no way I'mever going to have the
engagement that I used to haveand I don't care.
(20:02):
I'm sort of like, well,whatever, Does that mean it was
good or does that mean just alot of people were watching?
But it does help me to not careabout the app as much.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Oh, interesting, it helps.
Yeah, it helps.
That's interesting.
I don't know how long did youtake off Gosh.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
I mean I could say over the last few years I have
dwindled my amount of time spenton there.
I only post, you know, ahandful of times per year, so
when it comes to posting it'sbeen very little.
But I left the app completelyfor three months.
Yeah, amazing yeah, and thatfelt really good.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Yeah, but.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
I don't know.
I don't know.
This is just.
This is another thing Iactually wanted to ask you how
do you, when you're talking toartists about you, know
marketing?
And I know that you don't focuson social media, which is great
.
But, how do you, how do you evenuse social media and not let
(21:17):
chaos consume you?
Or what do you say to peoplewho want to market but they're
not feeling mentally healthywhen they're on social media, or
what have you?
Yeah, I mean, they're bigquestions.
So when they're on social media, or what have you?
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Yeah, I mean, they're big questions.
So the first thing I would sayis that the course that I teach,
or the way that I teach, whichhas been through a number of
courses, is actually socialmedia is somewhat irrelevant.
So that's amazing.
It's really about and this isgood timing, because I just came
out of a discussion withstudents like 20 minutes ago but
(21:49):
it's really at the core ofmarketing is what is it that
you're offering, who are youoffering it to and how can you
articulate it in a way forartists in particular, that you
feel energized by and that theywill see value in?
That's at the core of it.
Social media is irrelevant tothat.
(22:10):
Social media is one tool thatyou can use to communicate that
message that you kind of refine,but that's also a really
reductive way to talk about it.
The reality is social media isa big part of a lot of life.
So it's not I'm not, I'm notblind to that.
(22:30):
It is a topic that people wantto understand and talk about and
work out how to harness.
But ultimately it's so downlineof the way that I teach,
because unless you've got thosethings sorted, no matter what
channel you're using, you'reprobably not doing particularly
effective marketing anyway.
But when it comes to socialmedia, it can be a good channel.
(22:55):
But I also know lots of artistswho are not on there at all and
run successful fulfillingbusinesses.
If you do want to use it, I'veseen people grapple with it in
different ways.
So I have a friend who justsees it as a business tool now,
isn't seeking to use it as aconnective community tool, just
(23:16):
can pragmatically separate itinto.
I go on there and it's abusiness um task that I do and
then I go off.
I think that, um, I think at itsbest and I don't know and
Instagram is is the social mediathat I am most familiar with,
but so that's the one I tend totalk about.
(23:36):
But at its best it's acommunity builder and a
connector and it connects you topeople who share similar life
desires and that is how I've metquite a lot of friends and
that's pretty powerful, thatthat exists.
(23:56):
So I mean you and I probablywouldn't know each other if it
were not the Instagram.
I spent three days in Rome withLaura.
We would not know each other ifit wasn't the Instagram.
It has brought immense valueinto my life and as an artist,
particularly when I was not ableto call myself that, like when
(24:17):
I was really just in the earlydays of trying to figure it out
I social media was an amazingcommunity.
For me, it was, it was it was.
I could post work, I could getfeedback.
I don't mean feedback as incritique, I just mean that you
could kind of share, share it,work with each other and
interact Now friends would seeit.
(24:40):
Totally and then, but then therewas also a part of me.
That is okay if that was whatit did then and I can't do it
anymore Although I'm kind of sadabout that, right, and I do
notice that when I turn up andI'm able to turn up in a way
that feels energising ratherthan deflating, there is still
(25:04):
some great connections on there.
But I was just saying to thestudents today it's very common
for me to scroll on social medialike in my head, like oh my God
, that works amazing, that worksamazing, and not press like
yeah.
And so when I am conscious of it, I try and do it because I
think it's important to amplifyartists' work.
(25:26):
But often I'm not conscious ofit, and I also find it
reassuring because I don't thinkI'm the only one that behaves
in that way.
So I think there are peopleseeing our work that just aren't
necessarily validating in thattangible way.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
Yeah, I know and gosh .
There's just so much to it, thealgorithm.
A lot of people just don't seeit Totally I don't see a lot of
people's work anymore.
I see ads.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
I get lots of weight loss ads and menopause.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
It's all about menopause and weight loss,
apparently in my world.
Oh, my feed is filled withmenopause.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
That's my fault, because I'm very interested in
it.
Same same, same, yeah, totally.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
That's my fault, because I'm very interested in
it, same same.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Going back to, I kind of jumped out of the whole
duality, conflicting roles,conflicting expectations.
I was interested in, like Iwould imagine, the contrast
between having a corporatemarketing career and then,
(26:36):
online, you sharing intimate andemotional photographs that you
take, and is that something thatmakes you feel vulnerable in,
you know, face-to-faceinteractions?
Speaker 2 (26:55):
vulnerable in, you know, face-to-face interactions.
So I think for a long I can'tremember definitively, but I
think for a long time I had aprivate account.
I seem to remember that in theearly days I very deliberately
had a private account and Istill connected with people
because that was the wayInstagram worked in those days.
You just kind of, when youfollowed, often you would get a
follow back and all that kind ofstuff.
So I think that's how I managedit in the early days.
(27:16):
Um, I don't think I'm not.
I've never been the person toshare bits of my life that are
really, really raw and are notready to go out in the world.
I think I know of people and Ihave friends who have found
(27:39):
themselves doing that in a waythat is very exposing, and I
don't think I've I haven't, Ihaven't done that, like I
haven't posted things that Iwould be really scared of people
Feel uneasy yeah, I mean.
I definitely post truth and somelevel of vulnerability, but
(28:02):
nothing that ultimately kind ofis really really deeply raw.
So I think that helps.
And then I probably went fullypublic on my account when I took
a career break from corporate.
And then in that year or sobreak which also was when we
started Naked Marketing and Istarted kind of melding my
(28:26):
corporate marketing backgroundwith my art background by
teaching and mentoring artistsThen in that period of time I
got more clear B that I wouldn'ttake a role in a company that
was so misaligned with my valuesthat it would be a problem what
(28:48):
I was putting out there.
Does that make sense, right?
Yeah, yeah, so it's not.
And then you know, life happensand sometimes which luckily
didn't happen for me, but Itotally understand that actually
sometimes you just got to paythe bills and therefore you make
your account private, butluckily for me, I have managed
(29:09):
to be able to keep those thingsnot conflicting with each other.
Having said that, when I'm inthe office I'm not saying, hey,
follow me on Instagram.
If someone happened to find me,they can follow me and it would
all be there, but I don't thinkthere's much crossover.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
So no one in your work life ever brings it up or
says oh, I saw, no, okay, no,interesting.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
I am.
I probably got some friendsthat I would have mentioned it
too, but you just I mean, whenyou're working in corporate like
you're so busy and trying toget the job done and meet
deadlines and deliver stuff andand they're not thinking about
my tiny little Instagram account.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
The next thing I would like to talk about is your
current course that you havewith Illuminate Classes, and you
are now co-owner.
I am Co-owner.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Yeah.
How did this happen.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Well, I feel like Summer and I need an origin
story that we can share.
But the the the reality is thatI had, so I had started
teaching, or I was writing mycourse to teach for Illuminate
classes, and then she and I were, separately to that, having
discussions about marketing forIlluminate classes and there was
(30:36):
just a synergy and not in alike you know, in romantic terms
you can have that big bang loveat first sight but volatile
kind of relationship because itall starts from that energy,
whereas the energy was was, Ithink it was pretty not instant,
(30:56):
but it was pretty early thatboth of us privately started to
go.
Oh, oh, this partnership couldbe something, but not in a
frenetic way, in a quiteconsidered and, um, yeah, gentle
way.
I guess it it grew from that.
So summer is so amazing andshe's done like.
(31:17):
It blows me away the way thatshe has built the illuminate
classes brand and it's lessabout the brand and more about
knowing what artists need andfinding, like these amazing
teachers that can um, teach inthis really nice, balanced way
of they know their topic andthey know it well, but they can
(31:38):
tailor and personalize and holdan artist not just in the
technical knowledge they need toknow, but hold their artist
self in a way that you walk awayfeeling you've been seen,
understood and learned technicalskills along the way, like it's
(31:58):
just phenomenal what she set up.
But she but also I think shewould be comfortable with me
saying she was exhausted and andrunning something like that on
your own is intense, and and sothere was so much opportunity.
There is so much opportunity totake the seed of what she's
created and grow from that, andwe both are energized by
(32:21):
collaboration, and so it justfelt like a good fit.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
I saw that and was like, oh well, this is, this is
nice.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
And it was it was it kind of came somewhat out of the
blue, but sometimes the coolthings do right.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
And while you were, actually, she had already asked
you to make a course.
Yeah, yeah, I was alreadybuilding a course, yeah, and
it's called the art of marketing, which is kind of what we've
been talking about the wholetime and I love.
Was it naked marketing or thisone where your tagline is
(32:57):
marketing?
That doesn't feel gross.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Oh, I think we might have used a similar one across
both.
I think we might have used asimilar one across both.
Yeah, so it's specifically forartists.
The tools that I teach are notthey're agnostic, they're
marketing skills, but it's in alanguage that is tailored for
artists, because we do.
(33:19):
Artists do approach businessdifferently and there is more of
an innate criticality tofeeling connected to anything
you put out in the world, tofeeling connected to anything
you put out in the world andthat what you're selling you
know.
I've heard more than one persondescribe it as a little piece
of yourself, versus you creatinga tangible widget on a um
(33:42):
assembly, factory, assembly line.
I'm sure there are people thatdo that and feel very
purpose-driven and connected towhat they've created.
But I do think art has thisextra layer of vulnerability and
exposure, and so it's trying.
It's translating the skillsI've learned in marketing, which
I was reflecting on it theother day.
(34:04):
I started my advertising degreealmost 30 years ago, so I've
been doing this stuff almost 30years now, but how?
But then it's translating thatinto practical, tangible ways
for an artist to use them,because I mean my corporate job.
We've got budgets in themillions, not not in the
(34:25):
hundreds of dollars, and so it'show do you take?
My friend Jan used to describeit as the Robin Hood.
How do you kind of take thereally important strategic
learnings from that long careerand translate it into a language
that's helpful to an artist whois working on their own and
(34:48):
just wants a way to livesustainably whilst creating, and
so that's what the focus is.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
And it's kind of based on a foundation of
maintaining integrity.
Yeah, and the way that you andYan did it in the Naked
Marketing, which I'm sure isvery similar, you feel like,
like you said, like you'retaking a piece of you and it's
coming from you and you feelgood about it, rather than just
(35:20):
ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
Yeah, totally, and I think, I think we've been so
conditioned and I, I, I, Itotally get why so conditioned
to marketing equals manipulationand um, preying on
vulnerabilities and kind of allthe really icky and gross things
(35:43):
.
Um, but actually, if you takeit back to its core and you take
it back to what it could be,it's an invitation.
I have this offer and I want toinvite you to connect with it.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Yes, I like that.
And last but not least, whatdoes living a curious life mean
to you?
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Yeah, it's such a great question and it's
something that I have alwaysspoken a lot about is curiosity,
and I love that that's kind ofyour calling as well and that
that's what you focus around.
How would I answer that?
I would say I don't know how tonot live a curious life.
(36:29):
I think I was definitely thekid that asked a million
questions, and now my son is thesame, and I'm always wanting to
understand at a deeper levelhow something works or why
something happened or how itcould be done differently is a
(36:53):
big driver for me, and for me,what I always try and get to is
what is the core of what?
What's at the actual core ofwhat's wanting to be achieved?
Because once you understandthat, then there's so many
different paths you can take.
Versus give me the answer.
(37:14):
I always want to know, but whatwas the question?
So what does it mean for me?
I think it means asking a lot ofquestions.
Anyone who's met me knows I aska lot of questions.
I think it's being open towhere those questions lead.
And I think it's being open towhere those questions lead, and
I think it means, wheneveryou're handed something, not
(37:38):
accepting it at face value and Idon't mean that in a cynical
way, although I think it couldcome across that way sometimes.
It means it comes from a desireto want to know more about it
so that when you're receiving it, you're receiving it.
You're receiving it,understanding the intention of
the way it was given.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Yes, I completely get that.
What does it mean for you?
Oh boy, I have pages and pageson what it means.
I thought of actually.
What it means I thought ofactually.
(38:16):
You know, instead of having anintro, just beginning every
episode with each differentinterpretation of curiosity that
I have but for the most part Ido I think that it's just about
always always looking for whysomething's happening, how,
always kind of inspectingeverything, like you said, not
(38:40):
taking things at face value andjust going, well, no, why is
that happening?
Why am I doing that?
Why do I believe that?
Where did that come from?
Am I doing that?
Why do I believe that?
Where did that come from?
So, investigating everythingand always looking for more kind
of like a feeling of hope, likewhat is to come, curiosity, I
(39:05):
just I feel like, without it,you're kind of just settling in
and giving up.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
Yeah, it's interesting and I would say it
is a defining part of me forsure, as I'm sure it is for you
as well as others.
But I know it's exhaustingright, I can't do it for every
every thing I'm exhausted bymyself.
Quite often it is I'm exhaustedby myself quite often, so yeah
(39:35):
it's exhausting like it's a live, I recommend but also take some
breaks, like, take some breaks,oh geez.
Yeah, just to be, just be inthe moment.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
It's fine yeah yeah, that's a good point.
And before we leave, where canwe find you and what are you
offering working on now?
Of course, I'm going to havelinks, oh yeah, awesome.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
So Instagram, so it's Beck, underscore, underscore,
griffiths on Instagram.
That's where I hang out themost.
I'm kind of dialing up a bitmore about using that as the way
that I message people too,because I think that there's
lots of problems with Instagram,but there also feels like a
through line of art andcommunity that I'm still drawn
(40:20):
to.
And then Illuminate Classes.
So sign up to the IlluminateClasses newsletter.
Follow the Illuminate ClassesInstagram.
We were just about to announce Idon't know when this comes out,
but we're just about toannounce spring registration,
and I've now met personally metall of the teachers that are
(40:40):
part of Illuminate Classes, andI am blown away by what is on
offer, and we've got some newteachers coming up that will be
launched before the end of theyear, as well as lots of other
exciting things.
So that's where I'm going to bespending most of my time is
kind of getting curious aboutIlluminate classes and how we
(41:01):
help artists not just learn thetechnical skills are important
but finding yourself withinthose technical skills and
applying them in your own uniqueway, similar to how everything
I teach about marketing.
It's not about formulas, it'sabout finding your own path
within it, and I'm reallyexcited about what's coming up.
(41:22):
So yeah, illuminate Class is agood place to find me too.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
I will put those links in the show notes.
And I loved talking to you, Iloved researching.
Oh yeah, that's, yeah, that'sabout that bit.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
I bet, that's your curiosity bit as well.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
Yes, I get very into it and I you know, like you
didn't even know, I took yournaked marketing.
I usually do silent seats and Ijust watch everything and um,
yeah, I'm a watcher, an observer, yeah, I am.
It's weird that when I decidedto host, I was like, whoa, this
is so not me.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
Why?
Why the podcast?
What was the kind of catalyst?
Speaker 1 (42:01):
I was gosh.
This is so many years ago.
I was asked to speak on apodcast for when I was selling a
self-portrait course.
This is like back, I think, in2019 or maybe 18.
And when I talked on it, it wasHello Storyteller.
(42:23):
I was like, wow, that wasreally fun and I didn't expect
myself to like that.
And then I started listening topodcasts, because before that I
couldn't have told you how toeven listen to one.
And then I got really into itand I started enjoying it so
much that something in me justdecided I love these so much.
(42:48):
Why am I not using this as acreative outlet?
And it has become my favoritesource of that.
Even though I haven't been doingit a lot lately, it's something
that never dies in my head.
It's just that thing that'salways there.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
Like when am I going back to?
Speaker 1 (43:07):
it, you know.
So I don't know.
It just came out of the blue.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
It's a calling it was really lovely to um finally
meet you properly and thank youso much for having me.
I know same.
If you like this podcast,please give my mommy five star
rating and an awesome review,because she's the best podcast
writer in the world.
Welcome to Curating the Curious, the podcast that
celebrates staying curious inlife and never settling into a
box.
This show is for the creators,the seekers, the explorers, the
truth tellers and the foreverstudents of life, no matter what
age or stage you're currentlyat.
(00:22):
This is not as good as it gets,and it is never too late to
begin.
Join me as we explore all ofthe questions that come with the
idea of curiosity a place wherethe possibilities are endless
and you can always start again.
Today, I'm talking to BeckGriffiths.
(00:48):
Beck is a bit different than mytypical guest.
She works full-time incorporate marketing, but she
also mentors artists on how tomarket and sell their art
without feeling like they'reselling their soul.
I was actually lucky enough tohave taken her marketing class
back when she taught it a fewyears ago with Yam Palmer.
It was called Naked Marketingthen, and I can attest
(01:12):
personally that she will turnyou into a believer.
I really am excited about thisepisode because it's so useful
and she is so knowledgeable.
Useful and she is soknowledgeable.
She's someone who works fulltime in marketing and is also an
artist and has an artist heart.
(01:32):
While she knows all of thefoundations of true marketing,
she also knows how to help youmake a personal marketing plan
that can actually feel genuine,true and very creative, and
aside from all of that, she'sjust an amazing artist.
(01:53):
So now, without any further ado,here's Beck.
Every time, every time, I'vekind of like circled around an
interview with someone and we'vehad to reschedule, or like
timing's been off.
Whenever we do, I think, oh mygosh, this is the most perfect
(02:13):
timing ever.
So I have many, many thingsthat I want to ask you about
today, but before we discuss allof that, let's start with the
question that I ask everyone.
But before we discuss all ofthat, let's start with the
question that I ask everyone,and that is tell me the one book
or few that you believeeveryone should read, and why.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
I read that last night because you pre-sent it to
me and then I went oh, thatfeels really hard, I don't know
how to answer it.
And then I didn't come up withan answer.
So here's my answer on the fly,even though you gave me advance
notice.
But so here's my answer on thefly, even though you gave me
advance notice.
And I would say probably noteveryone, but I would say women
(02:56):
and or people who have hadchildren and have been in the
primary caregiver role might bea more appropriate way to say it
.
The book Night Bitch.
Have you read that?
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Yes, that was recommended by Laura Aziz.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Oh, yes.
So she and I spoke about itwhen I traveled with her, but we
did not read it on each other'srecommendation, but we have
both read it, and we both readit when our kids were at an
older stage, because the book isa mother grappling with how to
well, it's so interesting, isn'tit?
A mother grappling with how towell, it's so interesting, isn't
(03:27):
it?
So it's a mother grappling withparenting and letting go of
herself that she knewpre-parenting, which was very
connected to being an artist.
And the child is, I don't know,maybe less than three years old
, young anyway, and both of usread the book when our kids were
more like 11, 14.
So we were out of living thatvisceral experience, but it
(03:48):
definitely reconnected us to it.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Oh, me too, and the thing about it was, I remember,
thinking God, this would havehelped me so much to have read
this years ago.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Well, so that's the debate Laura and I were having.
I think it would have been tooraw.
I don't think I could have readit in those days.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Well, yeah, would I have.
I don't know if I would have.
That's a good point.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
But in hindsight it takes that premise of how much
have we let ourselves, our pastselves, be overtaken, I guess,
or consumed by a new importantthing in life?
But viscerally right Like it,does it in a really visceral and
(04:39):
pushes the boundaries of thatto the extreme.
Yes, it's a fascinating book,although I tried to watch the
movie and it didn't land andthen a friend of mine just said
don't bother, so I'm not goingto do the movie.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Well, yeah, that's usually the case, right, it's
just not usually the same.
Sometimes it is, but it's rare,yeah, yeah, oh, that's a good
one.
I'm glad that you brought thatup and I do agree.
And yeah, it's also aninteresting thought.
Would I have wanted to read itthen, because I don't think I
(05:12):
even realized what I wasexperiencing at that time.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Which is always the case, right, it's with hindsight
that we have the most clarity.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Yeah, yeah.
And what is your favorite quote?
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Okay, so this one I did fail at because I am not a
quote rememberer.
I do not.
I'm not one of those people whocarries quotes around, so but I
did after you had kind ofmentioned to me you were going
to ask, I guess my I was attunedto it and I saw one last night
that I wouldn't say is myfavorite, but I thought was
interesting, which talks aboutpeople's or it was from have you
(05:48):
heard of the Red Hand Files,the Nick Cave newsletter that he
sends out?
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Oh no, but Nick Cave yes.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Okay, so he sends.
I don't actually read it veryoften, but every time I see a
snippet of it or a version of itI go why do I not read this?
He's so articulate in thehumanity of all of us like it's
hard to explain, and he's gonethrough immense grief and is so
(06:15):
grounded in the way that heprocesses humanity that it's
interesting.
But anyway, it talks about hisreluctance to invalidate the
best of us in an attempt topunish the worst.
So to me that speaks of.
We spend so much time beatingourselves up for the bit that we
didn't do right, or the bitthat we're not doing well, or
(06:36):
the bit that we kind of areembarrassed that we should have
done differently.
It's such, it's such wastedtime to beat ourselves up about
the bits we're not doing well orwe're not doing perfectly or
we're not doing in a way that wefeel the most proud of.
But what that does, it's notonly time waste, it invalidates
(06:58):
all the things that are the bestin us.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Oh, I like that.
Yeah, I thought that was quitegood, and for some reason Nick
Cave keeps coming up and itmight just be that newsletter
that you're talking about.
Is it on Substack?
Speaker 2 (07:13):
I don't actually know what it's on, but you'd find it
.
It's called the Red Hand Files.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Okay, I'll look that up.
He keeps popping up.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Yeah, the universe is sending him to you for some
reason.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Yeah, exactly.
Another thing I wanted to talkabout is that something that
really draws me to what you dois the fact that you have a
full-time job in corporatemarketing and you do not do paid
art, so all of your creationsand personal projects are for
you and I like to focus on that.
(07:47):
I think that many of mylisteners fall into that
category and might not seethemselves as artists because of
that reason, or I'm also kindof fitting into that category
now, where I used to do the paidwork and I'm not.
I don't know.
It's really interesting to meand I want to know what moves
(08:09):
you to do these projects andthis work.
Is it coming from this need tocreate?
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Yeah, I think as I grew in my corporate career
there was less creativity in myday job, because I'm in
marketing and that does have alevel of creativity, but as you
get more senior it kind of isn'tday to day, and so I was
craving that and then I toyedwith doing paid sessions.
So I did do a couple of paidsessions, but the pragmatic I
(08:38):
had a pragmatic sensibilityabout financially I was better
off to spend my time gettingpaid doing something in a
corporate role which enabled meto keep doing art a friend of
mine jokingly talks about ashaving a corporate sponsor and
(08:58):
that resonates for me right,like that's amazing, yeah, and,
and it's not, I wouldn't do itif I didn't get fulfillment and
energy out of that career aswell.
Um, and I think that's often thecase for artists that they just
it, it would sap them and theenergy, the amount they gave,
(09:19):
the value wouldn't return.
But for me, I also find itfulfilling to work in a
corporate environment, so to meit made sense that that's where
I earn the money and thatenables me to create the art.
There's frustrations, obviously, like there's times where it
would be nice that I didn't haveto do a corporate job and I
(09:40):
could spend more time on the art, but in the main, for me that
balance works.
Yeah, that's not to say it'sthe right balance for other
people, but I have to.
The other thing that I'veobserved, though, because I'm
someone who is motivated by, Ithink, deadlines, is not quite
the right.
That kind of gives too muchsimplicity to it, but maybe I'm
(10:03):
trying to get better at beingmotivated by the process.
But I am somewhat motivated byan outcome or a intention that
I'm striving for.
I am sometimes.
I sometimes wish I was doing itfor paid work, because it would
force me to pick up the camera,yeah, whereas I've got to find
an intrinsic motivation outsideof needing to make money from it
(10:25):
.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
And have you always had this creative side of you?
You said that you studied it inschool.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Yeah, I did photography.
So I did art all the way uptill the end of school, which
for us is year 12.
But then I went into a creativeadvertising degree.
So it's, yes, definitely stillcreative.
Probably not art I wouldn'tpaint it as but definitely still
creative.
So I've always had a desire toexplore creativity.
(10:57):
I just think it's representedin different ways, so sometimes
it's through art and actually Ifind running a business creative
.
Yeah Well, you taught me thatwhen, I took Naked Marketing so
yes, but then I also.
When you ask that question, Ithink everyone is creative,
aren't they Like?
Speaker 1 (11:17):
we just all express it differently, exactly, and I
mean marketing is super creative?
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Yeah, I think so too.
I think so too.
I just came out of a sessionwith the students that I'm
teaching at the moment aboutmarketing.
That are all artists and I wastalking about that and you would
have heard that make you a goodartist, or that make you an
(11:48):
artist even are the same bitsthat make you good at marketing.
Curiosity, understanding ofhumanity, um wanting to put um
offers into the world, that kindof help people or add to
people's lives all of that isthe same right things that make
you good at marketing.
So to me, they'reinterconnected.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Yeah yeah, taking the marketing course with you and
Yan did open my eyes to seeingit in a different way, but I did
see it in that way already, way, but I did see it in that way
already.
I did because I kind of enjoyedback in the day, when Instagram
(12:32):
was fun, I did enjoy marketingmy courses that I was selling.
Things have changed, though,but I'm sure we'll get to that
later when I ask you more abouthow you get around all of that
stuff, because it's definitely,I think, on a lot of people's
minds right now.
Yeah, your personal projectcalled Multiplicity this one.
(12:53):
That really hit home for me bigtime, and I loved the video.
The video of it with the voicesof the women who you
photographed in the backgroundand beginning with the giggles,
but it's so contrasted with thephoto and it was just.
(13:15):
It really hit me the whole ideaof multiple roles, the societal
expectations, duality ofmultiple roles, the societal
expectations, duality this isall this stuff that I've been
wrestling with, I would say forseveral years right now.
How did you come up with thisproject and what was your aim in
(13:36):
creating it?
Speaker 2 (13:38):
So it was part of an intensive course that I was
doing.
So I did a 12-month mentorshipprogram with Kirsten Lewis oh,
okay, and she's very well knownfor her documentary work, but
this program was veryspecifically about.
It was called thePhotographer's Narrative and it
was definitely you didn't haveto be a documentary photographer
(14:02):
and that's not my skill set atall so it was much more about
creating narrative storiesthrough photography and as part
of that workshop she ran anin-person intensive week-long
retreat, for want of a betterword.
So we went to New Orleans andall of us had to to create, from
(14:25):
woe to go, an entire project,including an audio visual, which
is not my go-to medium toexhibit at the end of the week.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Oh, wow, okay, I did not know this.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Yeah, I really wish she still ran the course,
because it is phenomenal.
This is amazing, yeah, and sowe had, by that point, we had
studied with her for a year, sowe knew each other and her
incredibly well and in thecourse I had explored some of
those things.
But you tended to do like anassignment a month as opposed to
a long-term body of work.
(14:57):
And I think, just in general,I'm drawn to portraits, I'm
drawn to women's stories,stories, um, I have my own kind
of journey for one of anon-cliched word around.
How do I balance the opposingand conflicting ways that I'm
expected to turn up in the world?
(15:17):
How do I balance being soft andnurturing with being assertive
and direct and and and and?
There's a lot of impostersyndrome woven into it, which I
think is a very shared kind ofchallenge for lots of us.
Oh yeah, and then I have tocredit so many people because I
(15:39):
don't know about other people,but I'm a very collaborative
worker.
So, even though the work isfine and I created it, there are
so many mentors or discussionson the way that led me there.
So I also had a discussion withmy friend Rochelle, who's an
amazing artist in LA, englishborn but lives in LA, um, and
(15:59):
she helped me refine.
But how?
What kind of visualrepresentation could be a
through line?
No, I think I already hadthought about the lipstick, but
she just helped me refine kindof how to bring that to life in
the sessions.
And then created the sessionsand, because I knew it had to be
audio visual, recorded everyperson that I photographed
(16:22):
talking about the multiplicityof what happens in their life
and how they have to balancethat.
Yeah, and then Molly, who, umRaze, who is also a phenomenal
artist and has a lot of audiobackground, helped me edit that
into the um, the narrative ofthe um audio part of that video.
(16:48):
I loved that, yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
The whole the audio with the photos.
It's just not something thatyou normally see, and I was.
I was floored by it.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Oh, thank you.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
God, I hope everybody listens or watches this.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Well, that's the thing't it.
That I think and againsomething we're talking about in
marketing because it comes upso often as artists is when?
When do we have to sit and becomfortable with putting it out
there and accepting that maybeno one or three people are
impacted by it and no one else?
And I grapple with that becauseI'm someone who's an extrovert,
(17:30):
who feels the need to bevalidated by external opinions,
which I don't think is uncommon,but sometimes, actually, you
got to just turn up and make theout anyway.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
And I'm not always great at that to be completely
transparent, but I try, I'mtrying, and I'm not always great
at that, to be completelytransparent.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
But I'm trying I think about that a lot, you know
, just with the whole changesand engagement in social media,
You're kind of like, well, am Idoing this for the response or
am I?
Not yeah, I think I'm not, butthen I'm disappointed.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Yes, oh, my God, not.
Yeah, I think I'm not, but thenI'm disappointed.
Yes, oh, my god, my friendLaura and I.
So, laura, who you mentioned,who's a mutual friend of ours.
We, along with another friend,emma, ran a evening.
I was in London for a few weeks.
I saw that yeah, we ran anevening and that's the kind of
thing we spoke about.
It was just gathering femaleartists together and talking
(18:30):
about those things and they canfeel I can't think of the word
inconsequential or flippant, butthey're not.
They're things that we aregrappling with, that the world
today kind of invites us to takedifferent avenues and and the
choice that we make influencesnot only how we put art in the
(18:56):
world, but how we feel aboutputting art in the world, and
there's no answer.
I know right like there's noright answer?
Speaker 1 (19:03):
no, and it's funny because I left social media for
a while and I loved it.
I thought I was done and thensomehow I kind of returned back.
I think it was during theelection.
I was loving the Kamala stuffand it brought me back.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Oh, interesting, because I think a lot of people
switch off around the elections,right, because it just becomes
so much.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Well, they made it so hopeful you know, that I was
eating it up.
So I'm like okay, I'm back inhere, this is making me happy.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
But my whole point in bringing that up was that you
know, I've lost so much of myaudience or the engagement, and
when I do turn up now it's.
I know that there's no way I'mever going to have the
engagement that I used to haveand I don't care.
(20:02):
I'm sort of like, well,whatever, Does that mean it was
good or does that mean just alot of people were watching?
But it does help me to not careabout the app as much.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Oh, interesting, it helps.
Yeah, it helps.
That's interesting.
I don't know how long did youtake off Gosh.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
I mean I could say over the last few years I have
dwindled my amount of time spenton there.
I only post, you know, ahandful of times per year, so
when it comes to posting it'sbeen very little.
But I left the app completelyfor three months.
Yeah, amazing yeah, and thatfelt really good.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Yeah, but.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
I don't know.
I don't know.
This is just.
This is another thing Iactually wanted to ask you how
do you, when you're talking toartists about you, know
marketing?
And I know that you don't focuson social media, which is great
.
But, how do you, how do you evenuse social media and not let
(21:17):
chaos consume you?
Or what do you say to peoplewho want to market but they're
not feeling mentally healthywhen they're on social media, or
what have you?
Yeah, I mean, they're bigquestions.
So when they're on social media, or what have you?
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Yeah, I mean, they're big questions.
So the first thing I would sayis that the course that I teach,
or the way that I teach, whichhas been through a number of
courses, is actually socialmedia is somewhat irrelevant.
So that's amazing.
It's really about and this isgood timing, because I just came
out of a discussion withstudents like 20 minutes ago but
(21:49):
it's really at the core ofmarketing is what is it that
you're offering, who are youoffering it to and how can you
articulate it in a way forartists in particular, that you
feel energized by and that theywill see value in?
That's at the core of it.
Social media is irrelevant tothat.
(22:10):
Social media is one tool thatyou can use to communicate that
message that you kind of refine,but that's also a really
reductive way to talk about it.
The reality is social media isa big part of a lot of life.
So it's not I'm not, I'm notblind to that.
(22:30):
It is a topic that people wantto understand and talk about and
work out how to harness.
But ultimately it's so downlineof the way that I teach,
because unless you've got thosethings sorted, no matter what
channel you're using, you'reprobably not doing particularly
effective marketing anyway.
But when it comes to socialmedia, it can be a good channel.
(22:55):
But I also know lots of artistswho are not on there at all and
run successful fulfillingbusinesses.
If you do want to use it, I'veseen people grapple with it in
different ways.
So I have a friend who justsees it as a business tool now,
isn't seeking to use it as aconnective community tool, just
(23:16):
can pragmatically separate itinto.
I go on there and it's abusiness um task that I do and
then I go off.
I think that, um, I think at itsbest and I don't know and
Instagram is is the social mediathat I am most familiar with,
but so that's the one I tend totalk about.
(23:36):
But at its best it's acommunity builder and a
connector and it connects you topeople who share similar life
desires and that is how I've metquite a lot of friends and
that's pretty powerful, thatthat exists.
(23:56):
So I mean you and I probablywouldn't know each other if it
were not the Instagram.
I spent three days in Rome withLaura.
We would not know each other ifit wasn't the Instagram.
It has brought immense valueinto my life and as an artist,
particularly when I was not ableto call myself that, like when
(24:17):
I was really just in the earlydays of trying to figure it out
I social media was an amazingcommunity.
For me, it was, it was it was.
I could post work, I could getfeedback.
I don't mean feedback as incritique, I just mean that you
could kind of share, share it,work with each other and
interact Now friends would seeit.
(24:40):
Totally and then, but then therewas also a part of me.
That is okay if that was whatit did then and I can't do it
anymore Although I'm kind of sadabout that, right, and I do
notice that when I turn up andI'm able to turn up in a way
that feels energising ratherthan deflating, there is still
(25:04):
some great connections on there.
But I was just saying to thestudents today it's very common
for me to scroll on social medialike in my head, like oh my God
, that works amazing, that worksamazing, and not press like
yeah.
And so when I am conscious of it, I try and do it because I
think it's important to amplifyartists' work.
(25:26):
But often I'm not conscious ofit, and I also find it
reassuring because I don't thinkI'm the only one that behaves
in that way.
So I think there are peopleseeing our work that just aren't
necessarily validating in thattangible way.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
Yeah, I know and gosh .
There's just so much to it, thealgorithm.
A lot of people just don't seeit Totally I don't see a lot of
people's work anymore.
I see ads.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
I get lots of weight loss ads and menopause.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
It's all about menopause and weight loss,
apparently in my world.
Oh, my feed is filled withmenopause.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
That's my fault, because I'm very interested in
it.
Same same, same, yeah, totally.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
That's my fault, because I'm very interested in
it, same same.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Going back to, I kind of jumped out of the whole
duality, conflicting roles,conflicting expectations.
I was interested in, like Iwould imagine, the contrast
between having a corporatemarketing career and then,
(26:36):
online, you sharing intimate andemotional photographs that you
take, and is that something thatmakes you feel vulnerable in,
you know, face-to-faceinteractions?
Speaker 2 (26:55):
vulnerable in, you know, face-to-face interactions.
So I think for a long I can'tremember definitively, but I
think for a long time I had aprivate account.
I seem to remember that in theearly days I very deliberately
had a private account and Istill connected with people
because that was the wayInstagram worked in those days.
You just kind of, when youfollowed, often you would get a
follow back and all that kind ofstuff.
So I think that's how I managedit in the early days.
(27:16):
Um, I don't think I'm not.
I've never been the person toshare bits of my life that are
really, really raw and are notready to go out in the world.
I think I know of people and Ihave friends who have found
(27:39):
themselves doing that in a waythat is very exposing, and I
don't think I've I haven't, Ihaven't done that, like I
haven't posted things that Iwould be really scared of people
Feel uneasy yeah, I mean.
I definitely post truth and somelevel of vulnerability, but
(28:02):
nothing that ultimately kind ofis really really deeply raw.
So I think that helps.
And then I probably went fullypublic on my account when I took
a career break from corporate.
And then in that year or sobreak which also was when we
started Naked Marketing and Istarted kind of melding my
(28:26):
corporate marketing backgroundwith my art background by
teaching and mentoring artistsThen in that period of time I
got more clear B that I wouldn'ttake a role in a company that
was so misaligned with my valuesthat it would be a problem what
(28:48):
I was putting out there.
Does that make sense, right?
Yeah, yeah, so it's not.
And then you know, life happensand sometimes which luckily
didn't happen for me, but Itotally understand that actually
sometimes you just got to paythe bills and therefore you make
your account private, butluckily for me, I have managed
(29:09):
to be able to keep those thingsnot conflicting with each other.
Having said that, when I'm inthe office I'm not saying, hey,
follow me on Instagram.
If someone happened to find me,they can follow me and it would
all be there, but I don't thinkthere's much crossover.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
So no one in your work life ever brings it up or
says oh, I saw, no, okay, no,interesting.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
I am.
I probably got some friendsthat I would have mentioned it
too, but you just I mean, whenyou're working in corporate like
you're so busy and trying toget the job done and meet
deadlines and deliver stuff andand they're not thinking about
my tiny little Instagram account.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
The next thing I would like to talk about is your
current course that you havewith Illuminate Classes, and you
are now co-owner.
I am Co-owner.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Yeah.
How did this happen.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Well, I feel like Summer and I need an origin
story that we can share.
But the the the reality is thatI had, so I had started
teaching, or I was writing mycourse to teach for Illuminate
classes, and then she and I were, separately to that, having
discussions about marketing forIlluminate classes and there was
(30:36):
just a synergy and not in alike you know, in romantic terms
you can have that big bang loveat first sight but volatile
kind of relationship because itall starts from that energy,
whereas the energy was was, Ithink it was pretty not instant,
(30:56):
but it was pretty early thatboth of us privately started to
go.
Oh, oh, this partnership couldbe something, but not in a
frenetic way, in a quiteconsidered and, um, yeah, gentle
way.
I guess it it grew from that.
So summer is so amazing andshe's done like.
(31:17):
It blows me away the way thatshe has built the illuminate
classes brand and it's lessabout the brand and more about
knowing what artists need andfinding, like these amazing
teachers that can um, teach inthis really nice, balanced way
of they know their topic andthey know it well, but they can
(31:38):
tailor and personalize and holdan artist not just in the
technical knowledge they need toknow, but hold their artist
self in a way that you walk awayfeeling you've been seen,
understood and learned technicalskills along the way, like it's
(31:58):
just phenomenal what she set up.
But she but also I think shewould be comfortable with me
saying she was exhausted and andrunning something like that on
your own is intense, and and sothere was so much opportunity.
There is so much opportunity totake the seed of what she's
created and grow from that, andwe both are energized by
(32:21):
collaboration, and so it justfelt like a good fit.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
I saw that and was like, oh well, this is, this is
nice.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
And it was it was it kind of came somewhat out of the
blue, but sometimes the coolthings do right.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
And while you were, actually, she had already asked
you to make a course.
Yeah, yeah, I was alreadybuilding a course, yeah, and
it's called the art of marketing, which is kind of what we've
been talking about the wholetime and I love.
Was it naked marketing or thisone where your tagline is
(32:57):
marketing?
That doesn't feel gross.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Oh, I think we might have used a similar one across
both.
I think we might have used asimilar one across both.
Yeah, so it's specifically forartists.
The tools that I teach are notthey're agnostic, they're
marketing skills, but it's in alanguage that is tailored for
artists, because we do.
(33:19):
Artists do approach businessdifferently and there is more of
an innate criticality tofeeling connected to anything
you put out in the world, tofeeling connected to anything
you put out in the world andthat what you're selling you
know.
I've heard more than one persondescribe it as a little piece
of yourself, versus you creatinga tangible widget on a um
(33:42):
assembly, factory, assembly line.
I'm sure there are people thatdo that and feel very
purpose-driven and connected towhat they've created.
But I do think art has thisextra layer of vulnerability and
exposure, and so it's trying.
It's translating the skillsI've learned in marketing, which
I was reflecting on it theother day.
(34:04):
I started my advertising degreealmost 30 years ago, so I've
been doing this stuff almost 30years now, but how?
But then it's translating thatinto practical, tangible ways
for an artist to use them,because I mean my corporate job.
We've got budgets in themillions, not not in the
(34:25):
hundreds of dollars, and so it'show do you take?
My friend Jan used to describeit as the Robin Hood.
How do you kind of take thereally important strategic
learnings from that long careerand translate it into a language
that's helpful to an artist whois working on their own and
(34:48):
just wants a way to livesustainably whilst creating, and
so that's what the focus is.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
And it's kind of based on a foundation of
maintaining integrity.
Yeah, and the way that you andYan did it in the Naked
Marketing, which I'm sure isvery similar, you feel like,
like you said, like you'retaking a piece of you and it's
coming from you and you feelgood about it, rather than just
(35:20):
ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
Yeah, totally, and I think, I think we've been so
conditioned and I, I, I, Itotally get why so conditioned
to marketing equals manipulationand um, preying on
vulnerabilities and kind of allthe really icky and gross things
(35:43):
.
Um, but actually, if you takeit back to its core and you take
it back to what it could be,it's an invitation.
I have this offer and I want toinvite you to connect with it.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Yes, I like that.
And last but not least, whatdoes living a curious life mean
to you?
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Yeah, it's such a great question and it's
something that I have alwaysspoken a lot about is curiosity,
and I love that that's kind ofyour calling as well and that
that's what you focus around.
How would I answer that?
I would say I don't know how tonot live a curious life.
(36:29):
I think I was definitely thekid that asked a million
questions, and now my son is thesame, and I'm always wanting to
understand at a deeper levelhow something works or why
something happened or how itcould be done differently is a
(36:53):
big driver for me, and for me,what I always try and get to is
what is the core of what?
What's at the actual core ofwhat's wanting to be achieved?
Because once you understandthat, then there's so many
different paths you can take.
Versus give me the answer.
(37:14):
I always want to know, but whatwas the question?
So what does it mean for me?
I think it means asking a lot ofquestions.
Anyone who's met me knows I aska lot of questions.
I think it's being open towhere those questions lead.
And I think it's being open towhere those questions lead, and
I think it means, wheneveryou're handed something, not
(37:38):
accepting it at face value and Idon't mean that in a cynical
way, although I think it couldcome across that way sometimes.
It means it comes from a desireto want to know more about it
so that when you're receiving it, you're receiving it.
You're receiving it,understanding the intention of
the way it was given.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Yes, I completely get that.
What does it mean for you?
Oh boy, I have pages and pageson what it means.
I thought of actually.
What it means I thought ofactually.
(38:16):
You know, instead of having anintro, just beginning every
episode with each differentinterpretation of curiosity that
I have but for the most part Ido I think that it's just about
always always looking for whysomething's happening, how,
always kind of inspectingeverything, like you said, not
(38:40):
taking things at face value andjust going, well, no, why is
that happening?
Why am I doing that?
Why do I believe that?
Where did that come from?
Am I doing that?
Why do I believe that?
Where did that come from?
So, investigating everythingand always looking for more kind
of like a feeling of hope, likewhat is to come, curiosity, I
(39:05):
just I feel like, without it,you're kind of just settling in
and giving up.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
Yeah, it's interesting and I would say it
is a defining part of me forsure, as I'm sure it is for you
as well as others.
But I know it's exhaustingright, I can't do it for every
every thing I'm exhausted bymyself.
Quite often it is I'm exhaustedby myself quite often, so yeah
(39:35):
it's exhausting like it's a live, I recommend but also take some
breaks, like, take some breaks,oh geez.
Yeah, just to be, just be inthe moment.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
It's fine yeah yeah, that's a good point.
And before we leave, where canwe find you and what are you
offering working on now?
Of course, I'm going to havelinks, oh yeah, awesome.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
So Instagram, so it's Beck, underscore, underscore,
griffiths on Instagram.
That's where I hang out themost.
I'm kind of dialing up a bitmore about using that as the way
that I message people too,because I think that there's
lots of problems with Instagram,but there also feels like a
through line of art andcommunity that I'm still drawn
(40:20):
to.
And then Illuminate Classes.
So sign up to the IlluminateClasses newsletter.
Follow the Illuminate ClassesInstagram.
We were just about to announce Idon't know when this comes out,
but we're just about toannounce spring registration,
and I've now met personally metall of the teachers that are
(40:40):
part of Illuminate Classes, andI am blown away by what is on
offer, and we've got some newteachers coming up that will be
launched before the end of theyear, as well as lots of other
exciting things.
So that's where I'm going to bespending most of my time is
kind of getting curious aboutIlluminate classes and how we
(41:01):
help artists not just learn thetechnical skills are important
but finding yourself withinthose technical skills and
applying them in your own uniqueway, similar to how everything
I teach about marketing.
It's not about formulas, it'sabout finding your own path
within it, and I'm reallyexcited about what's coming up.
(41:22):
So yeah, illuminate Class is agood place to find me too.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
I will put those links in the show notes.
And I loved talking to you, Iloved researching.
Oh yeah, that's, yeah, that'sabout that bit.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
I bet, that's your curiosity bit as well.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
Yes, I get very into it and I you know, like you
didn't even know, I took yournaked marketing.
I usually do silent seats and Ijust watch everything and um,
yeah, I'm a watcher, an observer, yeah, I am.
It's weird that when I decidedto host, I was like, whoa, this
is so not me.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
Why?
Why the podcast?
What was the kind of catalyst?
Speaker 1 (42:01):
I was gosh.
This is so many years ago.
I was asked to speak on apodcast for when I was selling a
self-portrait course.
This is like back, I think, in2019 or maybe 18.
And when I talked on it, it wasHello Storyteller.
(42:23):
I was like, wow, that wasreally fun and I didn't expect
myself to like that.
And then I started listening topodcasts, because before that I
couldn't have told you how toeven listen to one.
And then I got really into itand I started enjoying it so
much that something in me justdecided I love these so much.
(42:48):
Why am I not using this as acreative outlet?
And it has become my favoritesource of that.
Even though I haven't been doingit a lot lately, it's something
that never dies in my head.
It's just that thing that'salways there.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
Like when am I going back to?
Speaker 1 (43:07):
it, you know.
So I don't know.
It just came out of the blue.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
It's a calling it was really lovely to um finally
meet you properly and thank youso much for having me.
I know same.
If you like this podcast,please give my mommy five star
rating and an awesome review,because she's the best podcast
writer in the world.
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