Many believers have unknowingly exchanged truth for cultural influence—and wonder why they feel spiritually dry, confused, or insecure. In this powerful conversation, Dr. John West exposes the subtle ways culture shapes our thinking—and how returning to God’s Word can restore your peace, clarity, and confidence in Christ.
Bible Verses Referenced:
- Acts 2:38 – “Repent and be baptized… and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
- Romans 6:4 – “We were buried with Him through baptism into death… so that we too may walk in newness of life.”
- Galatians 6:8 – “Whoever sows to please their flesh… will reap destruction.”
- Galatians 5:22–23 – “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace…”
- Philippians 2:12–13 – “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling… for it is God who works in you…”
- John 14:6 – “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”
- Galatians 5:13–25 – [Read in full during the episode]
Key Takeaways:
1. You Can Be Sincere—and Still Be Captivated by Culture
Without a biblical foundation, it’s easy to unknowingly absorb values that oppose God’s truth.
2. Spiritual Maturity Welcomes Questions
A healthy Church doesn’t shut down honest doubts. Growth comes through open dialogue rooted in Scripture.
3. Truth Must Be Held with Love
Truth without grace misrepresents Jesus. We must love well and stand firm.
4. Bitterness Is a Trap—but Healing Is Possible
Even deep wounds can be healed by Jesus. Bitterness doesn’t have to define your story.
5. Lies About Sin Keep People in Bondage
Two common lies:
– “My sin doesn’t really matter.”
– “My sin is too big to be forgiven.”
Both are false. God calls us to holiness and offers full forgiveness.
6. You’re Not Called to Carry the Weight—God Is
Faithfulness, not success, is our calling. God builds His Church—even in dark times.
7. Jesus Is the Only Way
Holding fast to John 14:6 may be countercultural—but it’s the most loving and life-giving truth we can offer.
Resources & Links:
- Stockholm Syndrome Christianity by Dr. John West
- Visit: stockholmsyndromechristianity.com for free resources for parents, pastors, and truth-seeking believers.
- Related Episodes:
- – [Episode 5] The Bible: Many Books, One Story
- – [Episode 42] How to Interpret the Bible: Tools for Exegesis and Hermeneutics
- – [Episode 45] How to Understand the Bible Beyond Cultural Bias
Call to Action:
If this episode stirred something in you—
– Share it with a friend
– Leave a review
– Join our FREE Curious for Christ community where we ask honest questions that lead us closer to Jesus
Until next time—stay curious, stay faithful, and stay free in Christ.
Much love, Alexandra
Thanks for listening! Your support means the world. Join our Curious for Christ Facebook Group and become an Insider for weekly inspiration and encouragement on your faith journey.
Want to go deeper? Let's connect—set up a FREE Discovery Call today. See you next time!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome to Curious for Christ.
Today's episode is one I believeis crucial, especially if you've
made Jesus Your Lord and Savior.
When we decide to follow Jesus,when we are baptized for the
forgiveness of our sins, as itsays in Acts two verse 38, we
receive the gift of the HolySpirit, and from that moment on,
(00:23):
we begin a new way of living.
A life where Jesus is actuallyLord of it.
All we die to self in baptismand rise again to live a new
life in Christ.
Romans six, verse four.
That means he becomes Lord overour thoughts, our words.
Our relationships, our time,what we consume, how we speak,
(00:45):
what we listen to, and what weallow to influence our heart.
Because the truth is, if we liveaccording to the flesh, we will
reap the fruit of the flesh.
Escalation six verse eight says,but if we live according to the
spirit, we will bear the fruitof the spirit, we can read in
Galatians 5 22 and 23.
(01:05):
Also Philippians two is clear.
We are called to work out oursalvation with fear and
trembling.
Not work for it becausesalvation is a gift, but to live
it out daily in partnership withGod.
As verse 13 reminds us also inPhilippians two, for it is God
who works in you to will and toact in order to fulfill his good
(01:27):
purpose.
That means.
We must live intentionallyaligned with God and in
partnership with him.
We cannot drift aimlessly in ourhabits, our influences, or the
culture we absorb.
That's not the Christian life.
That's self-deception, andthat's exactly what today's
conversation is about.
I am joined by Dr.
(01:48):
John West, author of the Thoughtprovoking book, Stockholm
Syndrome Christianity.
If you're not familiar with theterm Stockholm syndrome, it
originated from a hostagesituation in Sweden in the 1970s
where victims began to feelsympathy and even loyalty toward
their captors.
It's a psychological condition,but John uses it as a powerful
(02:12):
spiritual metaphor.
What if Christians, without evenrealizing it, have started
identifying more with theculture that's holding them
captive than with the Christ whocame to set them free.
Dr.
West is Vice President of theDiscovery Institute in Seattle,
and co-founder of its Center forScience and Culture.
(02:33):
He's an award-winning author,filmmaker, and former chair of
political science at SeattlePacific University.
He holds a PhD in governmentfrom Claremont Graduate
University.
Through Stockholm SyndromeChristianity, he exposes how
subtle secular influences havecrept into the church and offers
(02:54):
practical wisdom and spiritualencouragement For believers who
want to stand firm on thefoundation of God's word, he is
a passionate advocate forreturning to biblical conviction
in a culture that constantlyshifts.
So without further ado, let'slisten in.
Here is my conversation with Dr.
John West.
(03:19):
Welcome to Curious for Christ.
Do you ever find yourself lying,awake at night wondering about
God's plan for your life?
Maybe you wake up with bigdreams, but feel unsure where to
start or what your next stepshould be.
If you're curious aboutexploring your faith and finding
purpose, then you've come to theright place.
(03:40):
Hi, I'm Alexandra.
I too felt lost and sure of thedirection my life was taking.
I yearned to understand mypurpose and have someone guide
me, but I kept telling myself Iwas too busy.
The timing wasn't right, and mylack of clarity prevented me
from being consistent until Ifound Christ.
(04:01):
He brought peace into my lifeand revealed the way to find
purpose by anchoring myself.
In him.
In this podcast, we'll journeytogether exploring the Bible to
gain a deeper understanding ofhim and cultivate your own
personal relationship withChrist.
So open up your Bible, put inthose earbuds and listen up
(04:22):
because God is speaking to you.
He's making everything new andyou don't wanna miss it.
Let's get started.
John thank you for being withme.
(04:43):
Today, I'm curious for Christ.
It's a pleasure to have you.
And I love to start withpersonal stories and so if you
could briefly introduce yourselfand share what led you to write
the Stockholm SyndromeChristianity, and share some
personal or spiritual strugglesthat led you to write this book.
Sure.
So for over a decade, 12 years,I was a professor at a Christian
(05:07):
university called SeattlePacific University, which was
founded in the late 19th centuryat a time when many of the
original Christian colleges inAmerica, like Harvard,
Princeton, Yale, had fallen awayChristian Star, a whole new
batch of colleges in America,the latter part of the 19th
century.
So that was out of where thatinstitution came.
(05:27):
And then I ended up workingafter there at a, a place called
Discovery Institute.
And so there is a think tank,but my time in Christian higher
education and also as an elderin a couple different
congregations.
And interactions at the nationallevel of my work with discovery
laid something on my heart thatI was seeing.
(05:47):
A lot of times Christians arereally sad by when they see how
culture is going and they pointfingers that this is the big bad
atheist who are doing all this.
And I think that's true that alot of people who aren't
Christians are doing things thataren't helpful and that are
tragic.
But I came.
To see that many of my fellowChristian leaders, Christian
(06:10):
professors, sadly, weresometimes helping to encourage
these same things, whether it beteachings on family and
sexuality, or an inability todefend religious liberty or even
just biblical authority that,the Bible is true that a lot of
self-identified and personally,I think that, that personally
devout Christians were.
(06:33):
Going in the same direction.
And so I was really bothered bythat and really thought hard
about that and prayed aboutthat.
And out of that I was walkingactually one day when I walk, I
like to pray.
I really, it hit me that thisidea of Stockholm Syndrome, the
Stockholm Syndrome was when thepeople were held hostage by a
(06:53):
bank robber and at the end ofthe process they ended up
feeling warm feelings toward thebank robber is the people
holding them captive.
And so it seemed to me that alot of Christian leaders were in
a way, were all being heldcaptive by the secular culture
and that.
That many of them wereidentifying more with a secular
culture than with their historicChristian beliefs.
(07:14):
And so I thought that thisreally helps me understand what
I was seeing.
So it is a double standard or itwould be hypocrisy.
Yeah.
I'd say what I was reallyinterested in are people who are
personally devout and theyattend church.
They say Jesus is their savior,and I think they're sincere, but
who end up identifying morewith.
The world than they do withtheir faith.
(07:36):
And so they take the operatingassumptions and many of the
beliefs sometimes without evenknowing it.
So I guess in a way there's atype of hypocrisy, but I think
many of these people are verysincere.
It's, they don't realize quitewhat they're doing.
That they're identifying withsort of the secular surround
Yeah.
Yeah.
Around them than more with thantheir biblical faith.
(07:57):
I see.
And so you defined of course,where the, that term, it's a
very bold term, the Sarmsyndrome, Christianity.
So that sparks a lot of,reaction.
Definitely.
But how can someone be.
Bondage without realizing it.
How can you explain that?
We we're all sinners still, evenwhen we're covered by the grace
(08:18):
of Christ, this side of heaven.
And our capacity for selfdeception, I think knows no
bounds.
And so I think part of it is Igo over this in one of the
chapters of my book is where doyou get your information about
the world?
And in my.
Personal experience.
A lot of Christians who end uplooking in their views, like the
world where they get theirinformation about the world.
(08:40):
Is from the world.
And so if you're spending with asteady diet of the same say,
entertainment products that yournon-Christian friends are
imbibing if you are, imbibingabout the same news sources that
are written largely byjournalists who are not
Christians and who don't reallyunderstand spiritual things and
they're portraying the world toyou.
(09:00):
Then I think that creates you,you're setting yourself up to
fail because you know whateveryour personal beliefs are and
you may believe in the Bible,but if you're watching a
imbibing, a steady diet, that'stelling you that everything you
read in the Bible is not true,or say that the biblical view of
the family, oh, that'sunrealistic, or that science
shows that it's not true.
That's not true.
(09:21):
Science doesn't show that.
But if you're listening tosources that are telling you
that.
At the very least, you're gonnabe pulled in two different
directions, and more likelyyou're gonna end up morphing to
the direction of, the diet ofstuff that you watch.
Just one simple thing many of usget our view of the world.
We don't really know that we do,but from the entertainment media
(09:41):
it's overwhelmingly true thatmost entertainment shows and
films overwhelmingly show.
Non-biblical family or sexualityas something to be extolled,
sleeping around is fine.
Breaking your marriage covenantis just the way everyone is.
That's not the way everyone isand you don't need to live that
way.
But if that's your picture ofwhat everyone else is doing,
(10:04):
that is going to impact yourviews.
Definitely.
Yes, for sure.
And talking about marriage anddivorce Jesus responded very
clearly that.
Divorce is not allowed, butbecause of our hearts being so
seared and hardened, in certaincircumstances God would extend
(10:24):
grace, but it is definitely notGod's plan and it creates such
a.
An array of just terrible thingsfor the family, for the
children, what, we're supposedto be representing God's
relationship on Earth.
That's what marriage toinstitution is.
Yeah.
So that's just one example.
But definitely we are called tobe set apart and holy, which is
(10:44):
separated.
From the world.
Thank you for sharing all that.
And it's a true observation.
I see that as well.
And the pool is real withtechnology and the, the
distractions that are, rampageright now, it's just at our
fingertips.
We can hear any message really.
So I just wanna.
Take a different direction.
(11:05):
Many of our listeners here haveexperienced religious trauma,
church hurt.
How do we discern the differencebetween the voice of an
unhealthy system, which you talkabout and the true heart of
Jesus?
Because there is a spiritualbattle, right?
Yes.
So there is gonna be hurt.
Yes.
So how do we discern.
(11:26):
So that, that's really good.
Ultimately I think it's the HolySpirit who helps us discern, but
I do think I do have a chapteron wisdom and you're so right.
That I think Christians arecalled.
Throughout the Bible it talksabout cultivating wisdom.
And I think godly wisdom startsfirst knowing the truth of the
Bible, and then if you know theHoly Spirit is working within
you, then God can convict orgive you wisdom, but some sort
(11:50):
of warning signs I think to lookat that, that could be helpful.
If.
You there, there's somethingcalled syncretism, which is
where, Christians are alwaystempted to mix and match their
beliefs with the beliefs of theworld.
And so if you see that happeningin your Christian community,
that's a warning sign.
I'd say if you see, certainforms of secrecy.
(12:13):
I talk about it in the book.
There, there are legitimatereasons why I say church leaders
might not be able to talk abouteverything because there, there
are legitimate reasons forconfidentiality, but in some
abusive church situations,confidentiality becomes a crutch
to basically say, oh, don't askquestions.
You don't have the right to askquestions, even though these
(12:33):
things may not seem right toyou.
We don't have to explain to you.
We don't have to, so I thinkwhen you encounter Christian
leaders who perennially aretrying to hide or say you don't
have the right to even askquestions, especially in the
local church level, then I thinkthat's a real warning sign.
I think it's a warning sign ifpeople are so insecure that they
(12:53):
basically shut people down forraising, heartfelt.
Things that are based on theBible now.
Now I do say, constant carpingat your church leaders or doing
your own agenda.
That's not godly.
On the other hand I know when Iwas an elder.
One of the things I most thoughtthat I was called to do is if a
(13:13):
fellow church member had aserious issue with the church
leaders or with things to listenand hear them out and not just
dismiss them.
And, if I thought it didn't, itwasn't right.
I tell them, but usually in mycase, if they're really sincere,
there was usually some elementof truth to what they're saying
that I needed to hear and thatthe church leaders needed to
hear.
(13:33):
And so if you have a leadershipsituation that are so defensive
that anytime anyone raisesanything that they just say, oh,
you're being ungodly by doingthat, and they just shut them
down.
I won't even listen.
That's a real warning signbecause that's not spiritually
mature.
And that is very controllingthat's not godly.
And so I think some of thosethings are.
(13:54):
So again if there's syncretismwhere people are mixing and
matching the, these secularnon-biblical beliefs with the
Bible, if they are using thesesecular methods of, that aren't
godly to try to control peopleand are so insecure that they
won't allow.
Anyone to raise, iron sharpensiron according to the Bible.
We need to be open to tocorrection from anyone.
(14:16):
And so I think those are somethings, ultimately as if, first
you need to know the truth andbe in the word because if you're
not, then when there's somecomes up, you may not even
recognize it.
But being in the word and andprayerfully asking God for
wisdom, which it talks about inJames and elsewhere in the
Bible, I think are critical.
Definitely yes.
The Bible is what helps usdiscern from all the other
(14:39):
messages out there and what Godactually, says.
Could you share a moment in yourown journey when Jesus revealed
himself as safe and set you freefrom something that once held
you captive?
Is there a process also that youcould share with us to help with
that?
Yeah, great.
Actually this relates to mybook.
(15:01):
So I talk in my book about mypersonal journey as a Christian
faculty member at a institutionthat was going in a different
direction and abandoning itshistoric focus.
And that was hard'cause I joinedthat institution'cause I was
really excited about.
How it had stood as a light forChrist in actually the Pacific
Northwest, which is verysecular.
(15:22):
But then in the 12 years I wasthere, it was going in different
direction.
And at one point I, I talk abouthow the board who were
personally very devout peoplebasically wouldn't stand up for
the mission and institution, andI think made a choice.
It was really wrong.
That was hard for me to dealwith and I had a lot of
bitterness over the years overthat because not so much over
(15:43):
some of the fellow facultymembers who were pushing, I
think, in anti-biblicaldirection, because I think they
really, they believed what theywere doing even though it was
wrong.
And so I could understand that.
But for these board members whowere personally devout
theologically, orthodox.
Who knew what was right, butthen weren't really willing to
walk the walk or shepherd theinstitution, under their care.
(16:06):
I had a hard time dealing withthat, and it took a number of
years and I'd say, it talks inthe Bible and one, one verse
that, don't let the root ofbitterness go in you.
And so I bring that to God andbe praying that for God to take
that away.
And it did take a number ofyears, but I think I've largely,
you by God's grace that beenfreed from that, I'm not bitter.
(16:27):
Anymore and not don't, I hadhard feelings over some of the
administrators who were pushingin that wrong direction, and I
don't that God has really takenthat away.
And so I would say that when youhave those hard things, I.
They often don't go away in theday.
Sometimes God does miraculouslytake things away at once, but
sometimes it is, oftentimes itis a process and you just need
(16:49):
to keep relying on what the wordsays and also asking for God to,
supernaturally do the changethat we're not able to do.
And yeah.
Yes.
And so you mentioned about theseleaders, church leaders that
know the truth and yet areunwilling.
It reminded me of Acts two whenPeter talks to the crowd and
(17:12):
mentioned about being cut to theheart.
If we're not teachable, if we'renot cut to the heart and then
repent, be baptized but theheart aspect being teachable,
that was what separated usChristians from the Pharisees
also, so praying for that, forother people.
So yeah, praying for otherpeople.
And I think one of the things Itried and when I was writing my
(17:35):
book, I was praying a lot aboutthis, is that, that I was gonna
be helpful and constructive andthat I wasn't just because my
book is, partly it exposesthings, but a lot of it is how
can we deal with thispositively?
And, and so I wasn't trying towanna wallow in.
Just the bad things happeningand also being careful.
I actually encourage people toread a book that was very
(17:58):
influential to me.
It's a tiny book by an authorcalled Francis Schaefer.
And he wrote a book called TheMark of a Christian and what So
Appreciated and this was aformative influence on my life
as when I was a young man.
And then.
Early in my career, which isFrancis Schaeffer in the 1970s
and eighties really stood up forChristian truth.
But he had a real appreciationfor how that could make you
(18:21):
bitter.
How that could make youjudgmental in a bad way and
self-righteous in a bad way.
And so his book, the Mark of aChristian, which the mark of
Christian is you love yourfellow Christians.
Was, is a great antidote tothat.
And so I've, that's somethingwhen actually when I taught at
the Christian institution whereI was at, I would also assign to
students and we worked throughit together because it was a
(18:43):
great counterpoint.
So I think truth is reallyimportant, but so is grace and
that book really has helped, I'mcertainly not perfect on this at
all, but it, it's one of thethings that helped keeping me.
Questioning myself and say, am Ireally doing what I should do?
You should stand for truth, butyou need to do it in a, a
gracious, loving way.
And that book has always spurredme to keep asking that question.
(19:06):
And so I do think.
That, Christians need to beself, we all need to be
self-reflective enough that evenif we're right, that's not
enough.
We have to be right in the sameway in, in the sa in God's, the
spirit that God has for us.
And so I think, we constantlyneed to ask God to help us see,
are we standing up for truth inthe right way?
And ask for discernment or whento speak and when it's not gonna
(19:29):
be received.
Sometimes Paul fled, sometimeshe preached sometimes it wasn't
the right time to talk what arethe, some of the most damaging
false narratives that Christianstend to believe?
Themselves or about God.
And how can Scripture helpentangle those lies and lead us
ultimately towardtransformation?
(19:50):
Yeah so that's a big question.
I think ultimately our biggestlies are either that we don't
really, what we're doing when wesend doesn't really matter
because, but, or the flip sideof that is that it matters so
much.
That, that we can never reallybe redeemed from it, which is a
lie.
And so I think that actually inmy book, to go back to a case
(20:12):
that we talked about earlier andyou mentioned marriage and
divorce, I think we actually seethis in this.
So on the one hand we have a lotof Christians who just poo
having, sexual relations outsideof marriage or cheating on your
spouse or pornography or youname it.
And they just, they don't thinkit's all that important.
They look like the world.
On the other hand, the otherside of that is that you think,
(20:32):
oh that say I've been divorcedso God can't forgive me or
redeem me.
That's a lie.
And so I think, we see this onthe both hand that we're called
to holiness because, not becauseGod's a big, bad God who wants
to bop us be.
He loves us.
And so we're called the holiness'cause.
This leads to human flourishing.
God loves us and so it's, butit's a really serious thing that
we need to take seriously.
(20:54):
On the other hand, when we dosin.
Everything is covered by theblood of Christ if we repent.
And so I think that you seethere that need to both uphold.
The truth and against the liesof our culture, where certainly
when it comes to sex and family,those, that's one of the biggest
areas of lies in our culture.
Just that we see and so manypeople are hurt and the children
(21:14):
who are hurt and the fellowspouses who are hurt.
And so it's, that's one of thebiggest lies.
About, that it doesn't matter.
But on the other side is, therecan be an unrighteous
self-righteousness of peoplelooking down at people who have
struggled with different sinswhether it be same sex
attractions, whether it bedivorce, and not realizing that,
(21:34):
that we have to faithfullyproclaim that Jesus, first of
all, we're all sinners, but thatJesus' blood covers.
All of our sins and can redeemus.
And and that's the great goodnews.
And so they need to be heldtogether.
Thank you for sharing that.
For someone listening today whofeels trapped in fear or shame
or religious pressure, whatencouragement would you offer
(21:57):
them?
Today.
Yeah.
So I think a lot of very godlypeople are rightly feeling
overwhelmed by all the evil theysee in our culture.
And that is, that, that, that isa real struggle.
What I'd like to say is that ifyou're feeling that and you're
wondering what can I even do,it's just so overwhelming.
(22:18):
The evil is so overwhelming.
Is to, I do have a chapter aboutthis in my book that, ultimately
God calls us to be faithful, notsuccessful.
We don't have the weight of theworld on our shoulders.
God does.
And and it's interesting to lookthrough human history since the
original preaching of thegospel.
Christians at many times.
(22:38):
God is surprising in hisprovidence and what he does.
If you were a Christian in theearly Roman Empire where
Christians were being viciouslypersecuted you may well have
thought oh, Christianity isgoing to die out and that
everything's gonna beeradicated.
But just on the cusp of that.
God opened the hearts of so manypeople that in fact,
(22:59):
Christianity became the main,faith of the Roman Empire.
Now, I don't actually thinkstate enforcer is a good thing,
but the rise of it becoming,spreading out so fast was a
great thing.
If you look, say in, if you're aChristian in communist China
near the, when the communiststook over and they eradicated
and killed many Christians andsent them to camps and things,
(23:21):
you might have thought the causeof the gospel is dead.
Now I.
Christianity is one of the fa,probably the fastest growing
religion in China.
There are millions, tens ofmillions of Christians despite
that.
And so I think you need to lookthrough human history.
God is very surprising in hisprovinces, and that you really
need to trust God and realizethat he has our best, in store.
(23:45):
And that he has, his planning isperfect and that we're not
called ourselves.
We're called to be faithful.
But not necessarily successful.
God will take care of success orfailure in the terms that he,
decides what true success is.
And so I think that the biggestcomfort is that God is
(24:05):
ultimately in, in control andthat we can trust him, and that
we can see that throughouthistory.
We can see that in our dailylives.
And so I think that, that's thebiggest comfort that God is
faithful.
That's so true.
There's evidence of his power.
And so focusing on these thingsinstead of everything else that
distract us is a great way tostay faithful to focus on the
(24:27):
evidence of God's power in ourlives and in this world.
If you could leave our listenerswith one truth about Jesus that
has the power to set them free,what would it be?
A challenging question.
Yeah no.
But what just came to mind rightwhen you were saying that is in,
in John 14 where Jesus says thathe is the way, the truth to
(24:50):
life, no one can come to theFather except through him.
And many people have claimedthroughout history that their
ways to God and many peopletoday in our society claim that
they have different ways to God.
I think you know the truth ofunderstanding that Jesus is the
way.
The truth and the life.
And that's the way to thefather.
I think that is, reallypowerful.
(25:10):
And I think of actually a story.
This is even something, to sharewith people who don't quite know
that who are searching and whomay wanna argue with you because
I remember the story of Corey 10Boom who helped actually
sheltered Jews during World WarII.
Told where she once met a womanwho in her travels'cause who was
saying I don't really believethis.
(25:32):
I don't, was trying to arguewith things.
And Corey Tebo said yourargument really isn't with me.
It's with Jesus.
Jesus says he's the way, thetruth in life.
No one comes to the Fatherexcept through me.
And that really struck in thiswoman's heart who was a cultural
Christian in a way, but didn'treally believe, in the truth.
And, but when Corey Tambo sortof focused on Jesus made this
(25:53):
claim so you know, you're notreally arguing with me, you're
arguing with Jesus that reallyhelped really confront the woman
and cut her to the heart toreally realize that Jesus was.
The person that she needed to befollowing.
But so I, I do think thatclaiming that verse and re and
really understanding all itmeans is a great, I think
(26:13):
comfort and strength and pointsus in the right directions as
Christians.
I.
Absolutely.
There's no double standard.
It's just very clear and thankyou.
That's very powerful.
Where can we find your book andyour teaching and learn more
about what you're doing?
Sure.
The easiest way is for people togo to stockholm syndrome
christianity.com.
(26:34):
That's stockholm syndromechristianity.com.
That has a lot more about mybook.
It has a lot of free resources.
For example, if you're aChristian parent thinking about.
Sending your kids to a Christiancollege but don't know.
How do I evaluate that?
I have 10 questions you can askthat will help you evaluate
that.
And that's, so like I said,there are lots of free
resources.
People don't even need to get mybook.
(26:54):
But I will say just one otherthing.
In my book, we didn't cover alot on this, but I do have a
whole section on.
What are things that you can do,in raising your kids?
And if you're a church boardmember yourself, if you're a
pastor if you are just a personin the pews, how can you steward
your resources?
What can you do positively?
Because there are things I thinkeach of us can do wherever God
(27:15):
has put us.
Whatever our stage of life.
Thank you so much.
So that's easy.
Just your website.
I will put that in the shownotes.
Thank you for your time today.
I really enjoyed speaking withyou and I hope many will listen
to this message and read yourbook and find your resources.
Thank you.
Thank you, Alexandra.
This is was great.
Thank you for having me on.
Thank you.
What a great conversation withDr.
(27:36):
John West.
Here are some key takeaways thatI'd like to leave you with.
Number one, you can be sincereand still be captivated by
culture.
Many Christians don't realizehow much their thinking has been
shared by secular assumptionswithout grounding in scripture.
It's easy to absorb culturalvalues that contradict.
Biblical truth Number two.
(27:56):
Spiritual maturity welcomesquestions, churches and leaders
that shut down honest, heartfeltquestions in the name of unity
or submission often revealcontrol, not Christlikeness.
Real maturity, listens,discerns, and remains open to
correction.
Number three, truth must be heldwith love.
(28:17):
John reminds us of FrancisSchaffer's powerful line.
The mark of a Christian is lovefor one another.
If we fight for truth, but losegrace, we misrepresent the heart
of Jesus.
Number four, bitterness is atrap, but healing is possible
through his own experience withdisappointment In leadership,
John shares how Jesus can gentlyroot out bitterness and replace
(28:41):
it with peace, even if healingtakes time.
Number five lies about sin.
Keep people in bondage.
Two lies often creep intoChristian thinking, my sin
doesn't really matter, or My sinis too big to be forgiven.
Both are false.
Jesus calls us to holiness andoffers total forgiveness to the
(29:02):
repentant heart.
Number six, you're not called tocarry the weight.
God is, as John so powerfullyputs it, you're not.
Called to be successful, but tobe faithful.
God has a way of making a wayeven through impossible
obstacles from the Roman Empireto modern day China.
(29:24):
He has always preserved andgrown his church in the most
unlikely circumstances.
Your role is not to save theworld.
It is to remain.
Faithful in it.
So if you're feeling overwhelmedby the darkness around you,
don't give up.
Fight for love, fight for faith,and trust that God will make a
(29:44):
way.
Ask yourself today, what can Ido to bring God's light into
this situation?
Number seven, Jesus is the way,the truth and the life.
What a powerful ending.
There is no other name by whichwe are saved boldly clinging to
the truth of John 14.
Verse six isn't narrow-minded.
It's the most loving thing wecan do in a world looking for
(30:08):
every other path.
If you want to explore JohnWest's book.
Stockholm Syndrome,Christianity, or access his free
resources for parent pastors andbelievers trying to stand firm
in this cultural moment.
Visit stockholm syndromechristianity.com.
I link it in the show notes.
(30:29):
Friend, I hope this conversationstirred something in you, not
fear or judgment, but clarity,conviction, or.
And longing to live more deeplyrooted in Christ.
We are called to be the salt ofthe earth, but if we blend in
with the world and allow otherinfluences to shape us, we
slowly drift back into bondageand spiritual slavery.
(30:53):
But we have been set free inChrist.
Let's remain free rooted intruth.
Walking in the spirit andshining his light.
If this stirred your hunger tounderstand God's word more
deeply, I'd love to invite youto go even further.
Check out episode five of Curesfor Christ, where we explore how
the Bible is many books tellingone unified story.
(31:17):
Episode 42 talks aboutinterpreting scripture with
tools like Exogenesis andHermeneutics and Episode 45
unpacks.
How to discern between.
God's truth and cultural biaseswhen reading the Bible.
Now, let me read to you fromGalatians five, verses 13
(31:37):
through 25.
This chapter is called Life bythe Spirit.
You, my brothers and sisterswere called to be free, but do
not use your freedom to indulgethe flesh.
Rather serve one another, humblyin love for the entire law's
fulfilled in keeping this onecommand.
(31:58):
Love your neighbor as yourselfif you bite and devour each
other.
Watch out or you will bedestroyed by each other.
So I say Walk by the spirit andyou will not gratify the desires
of the flesh for the fleshdesires.
What is contrary to the spiritand the spirit?
What is contrary to the flesh?
They are in conflict with eachother so that you are not to do
(32:20):
whatever you want, but if youare led by the spirit, you are
not under the law.
The acts of the flesh areobvious.
Sexual immorality, impurity anddebauchery, idolatry and
witchcraft, hatred, discord,jealousy, fits of rage, selfish
ambition, dissensions factionsand envy, drunkenness, orgies
(32:40):
and the like.
I warn you, as I did before,that those who live like this
will not inherit the kingdom ofGod, but the fruit of the spirit
is love, joy, peace,forbearance, which is patience,
kindness, goodness.
Faithfulness, gentleness andself-control against such
things.
There is no law.
(33:01):
Those who belong to Christ Jesushave crucified the flesh with
its passions and desires.
Since we live by the Spirit, letus keep in step with the spirit.
Let those words sink in.
Let me close now with a prayer.
Jesus, you are the way, thetruth and the life.
Help us live by your spirit andnot by the desires of the flesh.
(33:22):
Guard our hearts from compromiseand draw us deeper into the
freedom that comes only fromabiding in you.
Let us be salt and light in thisgeneration, faithful to you, no
matter the distractions or thepool of comparison.
And when we feel weak, remind uswe are not alone.
You came before us.
God, you understand what we aregoing through.
(33:45):
You are always with us and youare enough, and I prayed all
this in the name of your son,Jesus.
Amen.
Thank you so much for listeningtoday.
If this episode encourage you,would you take a moment to share
it with a friend?
Leave a review and join TheCurious for Christ Community on
Facebook where we continue toask questions that lead us
(34:06):
closer to Jesus.
Until next time, stay curious,stay faithful, and stay free in
Christ.
Bye for now.
Hi, I hope you enjoy today'sepisode.
If so, would you like to take 30seconds and share it with a
friend who may also strugglewith knowing God and his purpose
(34:29):
for their life?
Also, leave a review on ApplePodcast and let me know what
topics you'd like to hear aboutin the future.
Your voice matters.
I'll meet you back next Friday.
For another episode.
Welcome to Curious for Christ.
Today's episode is one I believeis crucial, especially if you've
made Jesus Your Lord and Savior.
When we decide to follow Jesus,when we are baptized for the
forgiveness of our sins, as itsays in Acts two verse 38, we
receive the gift of the HolySpirit, and from that moment on,
(00:23):
we begin a new way of living.
A life where Jesus is actuallyLord of it.
All we die to self in baptismand rise again to live a new
life in Christ.
Romans six, verse four.
That means he becomes Lord overour thoughts, our words.
Our relationships, our time,what we consume, how we speak,
(00:45):
what we listen to, and what weallow to influence our heart.
Because the truth is, if we liveaccording to the flesh, we will
reap the fruit of the flesh.
Escalation six verse eight says,but if we live according to the
spirit, we will bear the fruitof the spirit, we can read in
Galatians 5 22 and 23.
(01:05):
Also Philippians two is clear.
We are called to work out oursalvation with fear and
trembling.
Not work for it becausesalvation is a gift, but to live
it out daily in partnership withGod.
As verse 13 reminds us also inPhilippians two, for it is God
who works in you to will and toact in order to fulfill his good
(01:27):
purpose.
That means.
We must live intentionallyaligned with God and in
partnership with him.
We cannot drift aimlessly in ourhabits, our influences, or the
culture we absorb.
That's not the Christian life.
That's self-deception, andthat's exactly what today's
conversation is about.
I am joined by Dr.
(01:48):
John West, author of the Thoughtprovoking book, Stockholm
Syndrome Christianity.
If you're not familiar with theterm Stockholm syndrome, it
originated from a hostagesituation in Sweden in the 1970s
where victims began to feelsympathy and even loyalty toward
their captors.
It's a psychological condition,but John uses it as a powerful
(02:12):
spiritual metaphor.
What if Christians, without evenrealizing it, have started
identifying more with theculture that's holding them
captive than with the Christ whocame to set them free.
Dr.
West is Vice President of theDiscovery Institute in Seattle,
and co-founder of its Center forScience and Culture.
(02:33):
He's an award-winning author,filmmaker, and former chair of
political science at SeattlePacific University.
He holds a PhD in governmentfrom Claremont Graduate
University.
Through Stockholm SyndromeChristianity, he exposes how
subtle secular influences havecrept into the church and offers
(02:54):
practical wisdom and spiritualencouragement For believers who
want to stand firm on thefoundation of God's word, he is
a passionate advocate forreturning to biblical conviction
in a culture that constantlyshifts.
So without further ado, let'slisten in.
Here is my conversation with Dr.
John West.
(03:19):
Welcome to Curious for Christ.
Do you ever find yourself lying,awake at night wondering about
God's plan for your life?
Maybe you wake up with bigdreams, but feel unsure where to
start or what your next stepshould be.
If you're curious aboutexploring your faith and finding
purpose, then you've come to theright place.
(03:40):
Hi, I'm Alexandra.
I too felt lost and sure of thedirection my life was taking.
I yearned to understand mypurpose and have someone guide
me, but I kept telling myself Iwas too busy.
The timing wasn't right, and mylack of clarity prevented me
from being consistent until Ifound Christ.
(04:01):
He brought peace into my lifeand revealed the way to find
purpose by anchoring myself.
In him.
In this podcast, we'll journeytogether exploring the Bible to
gain a deeper understanding ofhim and cultivate your own
personal relationship withChrist.
So open up your Bible, put inthose earbuds and listen up
(04:22):
because God is speaking to you.
He's making everything new andyou don't wanna miss it.
Let's get started.
John thank you for being withme.
(04:43):
Today, I'm curious for Christ.
It's a pleasure to have you.
And I love to start withpersonal stories and so if you
could briefly introduce yourselfand share what led you to write
the Stockholm SyndromeChristianity, and share some
personal or spiritual strugglesthat led you to write this book.
Sure.
So for over a decade, 12 years,I was a professor at a Christian
(05:07):
university called SeattlePacific University, which was
founded in the late 19th centuryat a time when many of the
original Christian colleges inAmerica, like Harvard,
Princeton, Yale, had fallen awayChristian Star, a whole new
batch of colleges in America,the latter part of the 19th
century.
So that was out of where thatinstitution came.
(05:27):
And then I ended up workingafter there at a, a place called
Discovery Institute.
And so there is a think tank,but my time in Christian higher
education and also as an elderin a couple different
congregations.
And interactions at the nationallevel of my work with discovery
laid something on my heart thatI was seeing.
(05:47):
A lot of times Christians arereally sad by when they see how
culture is going and they pointfingers that this is the big bad
atheist who are doing all this.
And I think that's true that alot of people who aren't
Christians are doing things thataren't helpful and that are
tragic.
But I came.
To see that many of my fellowChristian leaders, Christian
(06:10):
professors, sadly, weresometimes helping to encourage
these same things, whether it beteachings on family and
sexuality, or an inability todefend religious liberty or even
just biblical authority that,the Bible is true that a lot of
self-identified and personally,I think that, that personally
devout Christians were.
(06:33):
Going in the same direction.
And so I was really bothered bythat and really thought hard
about that and prayed aboutthat.
And out of that I was walkingactually one day when I walk, I
like to pray.
I really, it hit me that thisidea of Stockholm Syndrome, the
Stockholm Syndrome was when thepeople were held hostage by a
(06:53):
bank robber and at the end ofthe process they ended up
feeling warm feelings toward thebank robber is the people
holding them captive.
And so it seemed to me that alot of Christian leaders were in
a way, were all being heldcaptive by the secular culture
and that.
That many of them wereidentifying more with a secular
culture than with their historicChristian beliefs.
(07:14):
And so I thought that thisreally helps me understand what
I was seeing.
So it is a double standard or itwould be hypocrisy.
Yeah.
I'd say what I was reallyinterested in are people who are
personally devout and theyattend church.
They say Jesus is their savior,and I think they're sincere, but
who end up identifying morewith.
The world than they do withtheir faith.
(07:36):
And so they take the operatingassumptions and many of the
beliefs sometimes without evenknowing it.
So I guess in a way there's atype of hypocrisy, but I think
many of these people are verysincere.
It's, they don't realize quitewhat they're doing.
That they're identifying withsort of the secular surround
Yeah.
Yeah.
Around them than more with thantheir biblical faith.
(07:57):
I see.
And so you defined of course,where the, that term, it's a
very bold term, the Sarmsyndrome, Christianity.
So that sparks a lot of,reaction.
Definitely.
But how can someone be.
Bondage without realizing it.
How can you explain that?
We we're all sinners still, evenwhen we're covered by the grace
(08:18):
of Christ, this side of heaven.
And our capacity for selfdeception, I think knows no
bounds.
And so I think part of it is Igo over this in one of the
chapters of my book is where doyou get your information about
the world?
And in my.
Personal experience.
A lot of Christians who end uplooking in their views, like the
world where they get theirinformation about the world.
(08:40):
Is from the world.
And so if you're spending with asteady diet of the same say,
entertainment products that yournon-Christian friends are
imbibing if you are, imbibingabout the same news sources that
are written largely byjournalists who are not
Christians and who don't reallyunderstand spiritual things and
they're portraying the world toyou.
(09:00):
Then I think that creates you,you're setting yourself up to
fail because you know whateveryour personal beliefs are and
you may believe in the Bible,but if you're watching a
imbibing, a steady diet, that'stelling you that everything you
read in the Bible is not true,or say that the biblical view of
the family, oh, that'sunrealistic, or that science
shows that it's not true.
That's not true.
(09:21):
Science doesn't show that.
But if you're listening tosources that are telling you
that.
At the very least, you're gonnabe pulled in two different
directions, and more likelyyou're gonna end up morphing to
the direction of, the diet ofstuff that you watch.
Just one simple thing many of usget our view of the world.
We don't really know that we do,but from the entertainment media
(09:41):
it's overwhelmingly true thatmost entertainment shows and
films overwhelmingly show.
Non-biblical family or sexualityas something to be extolled,
sleeping around is fine.
Breaking your marriage covenantis just the way everyone is.
That's not the way everyone isand you don't need to live that
way.
But if that's your picture ofwhat everyone else is doing,
(10:04):
that is going to impact yourviews.
Definitely.
Yes, for sure.
And talking about marriage anddivorce Jesus responded very
clearly that.
Divorce is not allowed, butbecause of our hearts being so
seared and hardened, in certaincircumstances God would extend
(10:24):
grace, but it is definitely notGod's plan and it creates such
a.
An array of just terrible thingsfor the family, for the
children, what, we're supposedto be representing God's
relationship on Earth.
That's what marriage toinstitution is.
Yeah.
So that's just one example.
But definitely we are called tobe set apart and holy, which is
(10:44):
separated.
From the world.
Thank you for sharing all that.
And it's a true observation.
I see that as well.
And the pool is real withtechnology and the, the
distractions that are, rampageright now, it's just at our
fingertips.
We can hear any message really.
So I just wanna.
Take a different direction.
(11:05):
Many of our listeners here haveexperienced religious trauma,
church hurt.
How do we discern the differencebetween the voice of an
unhealthy system, which you talkabout and the true heart of
Jesus?
Because there is a spiritualbattle, right?
Yes.
So there is gonna be hurt.
Yes.
So how do we discern.
(11:26):
So that, that's really good.
Ultimately I think it's the HolySpirit who helps us discern, but
I do think I do have a chapteron wisdom and you're so right.
That I think Christians arecalled.
Throughout the Bible it talksabout cultivating wisdom.
And I think godly wisdom startsfirst knowing the truth of the
Bible, and then if you know theHoly Spirit is working within
you, then God can convict orgive you wisdom, but some sort
(11:50):
of warning signs I think to lookat that, that could be helpful.
If.
You there, there's somethingcalled syncretism, which is
where, Christians are alwaystempted to mix and match their
beliefs with the beliefs of theworld.
And so if you see that happeningin your Christian community,
that's a warning sign.
I'd say if you see, certainforms of secrecy.
(12:13):
I talk about it in the book.
There, there are legitimatereasons why I say church leaders
might not be able to talk abouteverything because there, there
are legitimate reasons forconfidentiality, but in some
abusive church situations,confidentiality becomes a crutch
to basically say, oh, don't askquestions.
You don't have the right to askquestions, even though these
(12:33):
things may not seem right toyou.
We don't have to explain to you.
We don't have to, so I thinkwhen you encounter Christian
leaders who perennially aretrying to hide or say you don't
have the right to even askquestions, especially in the
local church level, then I thinkthat's a real warning sign.
I think it's a warning sign ifpeople are so insecure that they
(12:53):
basically shut people down forraising, heartfelt.
Things that are based on theBible now.
Now I do say, constant carpingat your church leaders or doing
your own agenda.
That's not godly.
On the other hand I know when Iwas an elder.
One of the things I most thoughtthat I was called to do is if a
(13:13):
fellow church member had aserious issue with the church
leaders or with things to listenand hear them out and not just
dismiss them.
And, if I thought it didn't, itwasn't right.
I tell them, but usually in mycase, if they're really sincere,
there was usually some elementof truth to what they're saying
that I needed to hear and thatthe church leaders needed to
hear.
(13:33):
And so if you have a leadershipsituation that are so defensive
that anytime anyone raisesanything that they just say, oh,
you're being ungodly by doingthat, and they just shut them
down.
I won't even listen.
That's a real warning signbecause that's not spiritually
mature.
And that is very controllingthat's not godly.
And so I think some of thosethings are.
(13:54):
So again if there's syncretismwhere people are mixing and
matching the, these secularnon-biblical beliefs with the
Bible, if they are using thesesecular methods of, that aren't
godly to try to control peopleand are so insecure that they
won't allow.
Anyone to raise, iron sharpensiron according to the Bible.
We need to be open to tocorrection from anyone.
(14:16):
And so I think those are somethings, ultimately as if, first
you need to know the truth andbe in the word because if you're
not, then when there's somecomes up, you may not even
recognize it.
But being in the word and andprayerfully asking God for
wisdom, which it talks about inJames and elsewhere in the
Bible, I think are critical.
Definitely yes.
The Bible is what helps usdiscern from all the other
(14:39):
messages out there and what Godactually, says.
Could you share a moment in yourown journey when Jesus revealed
himself as safe and set you freefrom something that once held
you captive?
Is there a process also that youcould share with us to help with
that?
Yeah, great.
Actually this relates to mybook.
(15:01):
So I talk in my book about mypersonal journey as a Christian
faculty member at a institutionthat was going in a different
direction and abandoning itshistoric focus.
And that was hard'cause I joinedthat institution'cause I was
really excited about.
How it had stood as a light forChrist in actually the Pacific
Northwest, which is verysecular.
(15:22):
But then in the 12 years I wasthere, it was going in different
direction.
And at one point I, I talk abouthow the board who were
personally very devout peoplebasically wouldn't stand up for
the mission and institution, andI think made a choice.
It was really wrong.
That was hard for me to dealwith and I had a lot of
bitterness over the years overthat because not so much over
(15:43):
some of the fellow facultymembers who were pushing, I
think, in anti-biblicaldirection, because I think they
really, they believed what theywere doing even though it was
wrong.
And so I could understand that.
But for these board members whowere personally devout
theologically, orthodox.
Who knew what was right, butthen weren't really willing to
walk the walk or shepherd theinstitution, under their care.
(16:06):
I had a hard time dealing withthat, and it took a number of
years and I'd say, it talks inthe Bible and one, one verse
that, don't let the root ofbitterness go in you.
And so I bring that to God andbe praying that for God to take
that away.
And it did take a number ofyears, but I think I've largely,
you by God's grace that beenfreed from that, I'm not bitter.
(16:27):
Anymore and not don't, I hadhard feelings over some of the
administrators who were pushingin that wrong direction, and I
don't that God has really takenthat away.
And so I would say that when youhave those hard things, I.
They often don't go away in theday.
Sometimes God does miraculouslytake things away at once, but
sometimes it is, oftentimes itis a process and you just need
(16:49):
to keep relying on what the wordsays and also asking for God to,
supernaturally do the changethat we're not able to do.
And yeah.
Yes.
And so you mentioned about theseleaders, church leaders that
know the truth and yet areunwilling.
It reminded me of Acts two whenPeter talks to the crowd and
(17:12):
mentioned about being cut to theheart.
If we're not teachable, if we'renot cut to the heart and then
repent, be baptized but theheart aspect being teachable,
that was what separated usChristians from the Pharisees
also, so praying for that, forother people.
So yeah, praying for otherpeople.
And I think one of the things Itried and when I was writing my
(17:35):
book, I was praying a lot aboutthis, is that, that I was gonna
be helpful and constructive andthat I wasn't just because my
book is, partly it exposesthings, but a lot of it is how
can we deal with thispositively?
And, and so I wasn't trying towanna wallow in.
Just the bad things happeningand also being careful.
I actually encourage people toread a book that was very
(17:58):
influential to me.
It's a tiny book by an authorcalled Francis Schaefer.
And he wrote a book called TheMark of a Christian and what So
Appreciated and this was aformative influence on my life
as when I was a young man.
And then.
Early in my career, which isFrancis Schaeffer in the 1970s
and eighties really stood up forChristian truth.
But he had a real appreciationfor how that could make you
(18:21):
bitter.
How that could make youjudgmental in a bad way and
self-righteous in a bad way.
And so his book, the Mark of aChristian, which the mark of
Christian is you love yourfellow Christians.
Was, is a great antidote tothat.
And so I've, that's somethingwhen actually when I taught at
the Christian institution whereI was at, I would also assign to
students and we worked throughit together because it was a
(18:43):
great counterpoint.
So I think truth is reallyimportant, but so is grace and
that book really has helped, I'mcertainly not perfect on this at
all, but it, it's one of thethings that helped keeping me.
Questioning myself and say, am Ireally doing what I should do?
You should stand for truth, butyou need to do it in a, a
gracious, loving way.
And that book has always spurredme to keep asking that question.
(19:06):
And so I do think.
That, Christians need to beself, we all need to be
self-reflective enough that evenif we're right, that's not
enough.
We have to be right in the sameway in, in the sa in God's, the
spirit that God has for us.
And so I think, we constantlyneed to ask God to help us see,
are we standing up for truth inthe right way?
And ask for discernment or whento speak and when it's not gonna
(19:29):
be received.
Sometimes Paul fled, sometimeshe preached sometimes it wasn't
the right time to talk what arethe, some of the most damaging
false narratives that Christianstend to believe?
Themselves or about God.
And how can Scripture helpentangle those lies and lead us
ultimately towardtransformation?
(19:50):
Yeah so that's a big question.
I think ultimately our biggestlies are either that we don't
really, what we're doing when wesend doesn't really matter
because, but, or the flip sideof that is that it matters so
much.
That, that we can never reallybe redeemed from it, which is a
lie.
And so I think that actually inmy book, to go back to a case
(20:12):
that we talked about earlier andyou mentioned marriage and
divorce, I think we actually seethis in this.
So on the one hand we have a lotof Christians who just poo
having, sexual relations outsideof marriage or cheating on your
spouse or pornography or youname it.
And they just, they don't thinkit's all that important.
They look like the world.
On the other hand, the otherside of that is that you think,
(20:32):
oh that say I've been divorcedso God can't forgive me or
redeem me.
That's a lie.
And so I think, we see this onthe both hand that we're called
to holiness because, not becauseGod's a big, bad God who wants
to bop us be.
He loves us.
And so we're called the holiness'cause.
This leads to human flourishing.
God loves us and so it's, butit's a really serious thing that
we need to take seriously.
(20:54):
On the other hand, when we dosin.
Everything is covered by theblood of Christ if we repent.
And so I think that you seethere that need to both uphold.
The truth and against the liesof our culture, where certainly
when it comes to sex and family,those, that's one of the biggest
areas of lies in our culture.
Just that we see and so manypeople are hurt and the children
(21:14):
who are hurt and the fellowspouses who are hurt.
And so it's, that's one of thebiggest lies.
About, that it doesn't matter.
But on the other side is, therecan be an unrighteous
self-righteousness of peoplelooking down at people who have
struggled with different sinswhether it be same sex
attractions, whether it bedivorce, and not realizing that,
(21:34):
that we have to faithfullyproclaim that Jesus, first of
all, we're all sinners, but thatJesus' blood covers.
All of our sins and can redeemus.
And and that's the great goodnews.
And so they need to be heldtogether.
Thank you for sharing that.
For someone listening today whofeels trapped in fear or shame
or religious pressure, whatencouragement would you offer
(21:57):
them?
Today.
Yeah.
So I think a lot of very godlypeople are rightly feeling
overwhelmed by all the evil theysee in our culture.
And that is, that, that, that isa real struggle.
What I'd like to say is that ifyou're feeling that and you're
wondering what can I even do,it's just so overwhelming.
(22:18):
The evil is so overwhelming.
Is to, I do have a chapter aboutthis in my book that, ultimately
God calls us to be faithful, notsuccessful.
We don't have the weight of theworld on our shoulders.
God does.
And and it's interesting to lookthrough human history since the
original preaching of thegospel.
Christians at many times.
(22:38):
God is surprising in hisprovidence and what he does.
If you were a Christian in theearly Roman Empire where
Christians were being viciouslypersecuted you may well have
thought oh, Christianity isgoing to die out and that
everything's gonna beeradicated.
But just on the cusp of that.
God opened the hearts of so manypeople that in fact,
(22:59):
Christianity became the main,faith of the Roman Empire.
Now, I don't actually thinkstate enforcer is a good thing,
but the rise of it becoming,spreading out so fast was a
great thing.
If you look, say in, if you're aChristian in communist China
near the, when the communiststook over and they eradicated
and killed many Christians andsent them to camps and things,
(23:21):
you might have thought the causeof the gospel is dead.
Now I.
Christianity is one of the fa,probably the fastest growing
religion in China.
There are millions, tens ofmillions of Christians despite
that.
And so I think you need to lookthrough human history.
God is very surprising in hisprovinces, and that you really
need to trust God and realizethat he has our best, in store.
(23:45):
And that he has, his planning isperfect and that we're not
called ourselves.
We're called to be faithful.
But not necessarily successful.
God will take care of success orfailure in the terms that he,
decides what true success is.
And so I think that the biggestcomfort is that God is
(24:05):
ultimately in, in control andthat we can trust him, and that
we can see that throughouthistory.
We can see that in our dailylives.
And so I think that, that's thebiggest comfort that God is
faithful.
That's so true.
There's evidence of his power.
And so focusing on these thingsinstead of everything else that
distract us is a great way tostay faithful to focus on the
(24:27):
evidence of God's power in ourlives and in this world.
If you could leave our listenerswith one truth about Jesus that
has the power to set them free,what would it be?
A challenging question.
Yeah no.
But what just came to mind rightwhen you were saying that is in,
in John 14 where Jesus says thathe is the way, the truth to
(24:50):
life, no one can come to theFather except through him.
And many people have claimedthroughout history that their
ways to God and many peopletoday in our society claim that
they have different ways to God.
I think you know the truth ofunderstanding that Jesus is the
way.
The truth and the life.
And that's the way to thefather.
I think that is, reallypowerful.
(25:10):
And I think of actually a story.
This is even something, to sharewith people who don't quite know
that who are searching and whomay wanna argue with you because
I remember the story of Corey 10Boom who helped actually
sheltered Jews during World WarII.
Told where she once met a womanwho in her travels'cause who was
saying I don't really believethis.
(25:32):
I don't, was trying to arguewith things.
And Corey Tebo said yourargument really isn't with me.
It's with Jesus.
Jesus says he's the way, thetruth in life.
No one comes to the Fatherexcept through me.
And that really struck in thiswoman's heart who was a cultural
Christian in a way, but didn'treally believe, in the truth.
And, but when Corey Tambo sortof focused on Jesus made this
(25:53):
claim so you know, you're notreally arguing with me, you're
arguing with Jesus that reallyhelped really confront the woman
and cut her to the heart toreally realize that Jesus was.
The person that she needed to befollowing.
But so I, I do think thatclaiming that verse and re and
really understanding all itmeans is a great, I think
(26:13):
comfort and strength and pointsus in the right directions as
Christians.
I.
Absolutely.
There's no double standard.
It's just very clear and thankyou.
That's very powerful.
Where can we find your book andyour teaching and learn more
about what you're doing?
Sure.
The easiest way is for people togo to stockholm syndrome
christianity.com.
(26:34):
That's stockholm syndromechristianity.com.
That has a lot more about mybook.
It has a lot of free resources.
For example, if you're aChristian parent thinking about.
Sending your kids to a Christiancollege but don't know.
How do I evaluate that?
I have 10 questions you can askthat will help you evaluate
that.
And that's, so like I said,there are lots of free
resources.
People don't even need to get mybook.
(26:54):
But I will say just one otherthing.
In my book, we didn't cover alot on this, but I do have a
whole section on.
What are things that you can do,in raising your kids?
And if you're a church boardmember yourself, if you're a
pastor if you are just a personin the pews, how can you steward
your resources?
What can you do positively?
Because there are things I thinkeach of us can do wherever God
(27:15):
has put us.
Whatever our stage of life.
Thank you so much.
So that's easy.
Just your website.
I will put that in the shownotes.
Thank you for your time today.
I really enjoyed speaking withyou and I hope many will listen
to this message and read yourbook and find your resources.
Thank you.
Thank you, Alexandra.
This is was great.
Thank you for having me on.
Thank you.
What a great conversation withDr.
(27:36):
John West.
Here are some key takeaways thatI'd like to leave you with.
Number one, you can be sincereand still be captivated by
culture.
Many Christians don't realizehow much their thinking has been
shared by secular assumptionswithout grounding in scripture.
It's easy to absorb culturalvalues that contradict.
Biblical truth Number two.
(27:56):
Spiritual maturity welcomesquestions, churches and leaders
that shut down honest, heartfeltquestions in the name of unity
or submission often revealcontrol, not Christlikeness.
Real maturity, listens,discerns, and remains open to
correction.
Number three, truth must be heldwith love.
(28:17):
John reminds us of FrancisSchaffer's powerful line.
The mark of a Christian is lovefor one another.
If we fight for truth, but losegrace, we misrepresent the heart
of Jesus.
Number four, bitterness is atrap, but healing is possible
through his own experience withdisappointment In leadership,
John shares how Jesus can gentlyroot out bitterness and replace
(28:41):
it with peace, even if healingtakes time.
Number five lies about sin.
Keep people in bondage.
Two lies often creep intoChristian thinking, my sin
doesn't really matter, or My sinis too big to be forgiven.
Both are false.
Jesus calls us to holiness andoffers total forgiveness to the
(29:02):
repentant heart.
Number six, you're not called tocarry the weight.
God is, as John so powerfullyputs it, you're not.
Called to be successful, but tobe faithful.
God has a way of making a wayeven through impossible
obstacles from the Roman Empireto modern day China.
(29:24):
He has always preserved andgrown his church in the most
unlikely circumstances.
Your role is not to save theworld.
It is to remain.
Faithful in it.
So if you're feeling overwhelmedby the darkness around you,
don't give up.
Fight for love, fight for faith,and trust that God will make a
(29:44):
way.
Ask yourself today, what can Ido to bring God's light into
this situation?
Number seven, Jesus is the way,the truth and the life.
What a powerful ending.
There is no other name by whichwe are saved boldly clinging to
the truth of John 14.
Verse six isn't narrow-minded.
It's the most loving thing wecan do in a world looking for
(30:08):
every other path.
If you want to explore JohnWest's book.
Stockholm Syndrome,Christianity, or access his free
resources for parent pastors andbelievers trying to stand firm
in this cultural moment.
Visit stockholm syndromechristianity.com.
I link it in the show notes.
(30:29):
Friend, I hope this conversationstirred something in you, not
fear or judgment, but clarity,conviction, or.
And longing to live more deeplyrooted in Christ.
We are called to be the salt ofthe earth, but if we blend in
with the world and allow otherinfluences to shape us, we
slowly drift back into bondageand spiritual slavery.
(30:53):
But we have been set free inChrist.
Let's remain free rooted intruth.
Walking in the spirit andshining his light.
If this stirred your hunger tounderstand God's word more
deeply, I'd love to invite youto go even further.
Check out episode five of Curesfor Christ, where we explore how
the Bible is many books tellingone unified story.
(31:17):
Episode 42 talks aboutinterpreting scripture with
tools like Exogenesis andHermeneutics and Episode 45
unpacks.
How to discern between.
God's truth and cultural biaseswhen reading the Bible.
Now, let me read to you fromGalatians five, verses 13
(31:37):
through 25.
This chapter is called Life bythe Spirit.
You, my brothers and sisterswere called to be free, but do
not use your freedom to indulgethe flesh.
Rather serve one another, humblyin love for the entire law's
fulfilled in keeping this onecommand.
(31:58):
Love your neighbor as yourselfif you bite and devour each
other.
Watch out or you will bedestroyed by each other.
So I say Walk by the spirit andyou will not gratify the desires
of the flesh for the fleshdesires.
What is contrary to the spiritand the spirit?
What is contrary to the flesh?
They are in conflict with eachother so that you are not to do
(32:20):
whatever you want, but if youare led by the spirit, you are
not under the law.
The acts of the flesh areobvious.
Sexual immorality, impurity anddebauchery, idolatry and
witchcraft, hatred, discord,jealousy, fits of rage, selfish
ambition, dissensions factionsand envy, drunkenness, orgies
(32:40):
and the like.
I warn you, as I did before,that those who live like this
will not inherit the kingdom ofGod, but the fruit of the spirit
is love, joy, peace,forbearance, which is patience,
kindness, goodness.
Faithfulness, gentleness andself-control against such
things.
There is no law.
(33:01):
Those who belong to Christ Jesushave crucified the flesh with
its passions and desires.
Since we live by the Spirit, letus keep in step with the spirit.
Let those words sink in.
Let me close now with a prayer.
Jesus, you are the way, thetruth and the life.
Help us live by your spirit andnot by the desires of the flesh.
(33:22):
Guard our hearts from compromiseand draw us deeper into the
freedom that comes only fromabiding in you.
Let us be salt and light in thisgeneration, faithful to you, no
matter the distractions or thepool of comparison.
And when we feel weak, remind uswe are not alone.
You came before us.
God, you understand what we aregoing through.
(33:45):
You are always with us and youare enough, and I prayed all
this in the name of your son,Jesus.
Amen.
Thank you so much for listeningtoday.
If this episode encourage you,would you take a moment to share
it with a friend?
Leave a review and join TheCurious for Christ Community on
Facebook where we continue toask questions that lead us
(34:06):
closer to Jesus.
Until next time, stay curious,stay faithful, and stay free in
Christ.
Bye for now.
Hi, I hope you enjoy today'sepisode.
If so, would you like to take 30seconds and share it with a
friend who may also strugglewith knowing God and his purpose
(34:29):
for their life?
Also, leave a review on ApplePodcast and let me know what
topics you'd like to hear aboutin the future.
Your voice matters.
I'll meet you back next Friday.
For another episode.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!