July 1, 2024 • 48 mins
In this conversation, Cindy Hovington interviews Victoria Talwar about the topic of lying in children. They discuss the development of lying in children, the different types of lies, and the role of parents in teaching honesty. They also touch on the importance of modeling honesty and the impact of lies on trust. The conversation provides guidance for parents on how to handle lies and teach honesty to children of different ages. In this conversation, Victoria Talwar discusses the topic of children lying and provides insights on how parents can effectively address and understand this behavior. She emphasizes the importance of focusing on honesty rather than just discouraging lying. Talwar suggests using stories and examples to teach children about honesty and its positive consequences. She also advises parents to create a warm and supportive environment that encourages open communication and trust. Additionally, she highlights the significance of understanding the motivation behind a child's lie and seeking professional help if lying becomes persistent or problematic.
Takeaways
- Children's ability to lie is a sign of cognitive development and understanding of different perspectives.
- Young children's lies may not always be intentional and can be a result of wish fulfillment or acquiescence.
- Parents play a crucial role in modeling honesty and should reflect on their own honesty habits.
- Lies can impact trust, and it is important for parents to consider the consequences of their own lies.
- Teaching honesty involves having conversations with children, setting clear expectations, and addressing both the lie and the transgression.
- White lies can be a complex topic, and parents should consider the values they want to teach their children about honesty and kindness. Focus on teaching children about honesty rather than just discouraging lying.
- Use stories and examples to illustrate the importance of honesty and its positive consequences.
- Create a warm and supportive environment that encourages open communication and trust.
- Understand the motivation behind a child's lie and address it accordingly.
- Seek professional help if lying becomes persistent or problematic.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, my dear friend , welcome back to another
episode of the Curious Neuronpodcast.
My name is Cindy Huffington andI am your host.
Today we have a prettyinteresting topic, something
that I have never covered before, and I'm really excited to have
one of the world experts onchild deception from right here
at McGill University and we hadsuch an interesting conversation
(00:22):
that focused around parts ofher book as well in her research
, obviously.
Um, I had, uh, the opportunityto read her book and I just
think that it's a book that wehave to all have in our houses.
We need this book in our homesbecause it just answers so many
questions that parents haveasked me before that I didn't
(00:42):
have the answers to.
And when we think of parentingbooks, sometimes we think of,
you know, just the generalemotions books, which are
important, but the idea ofteaching our children how to
tell the truth and to betruthful and not to deceive us
and not to lie.
That's a pretty big topic andmost of us don't know how to
(01:03):
navigate things when ourchildren, you know, lie to us or
how to model certain things.
I know it sounds easy, right tomodel honesty, but my
conversation with her made merealize that there were a few
things that I needed to changewithin my home, and I know that
you're going to learn a lot fromthis conversation.
So before I begin, as always,I'd like to thank the Tannenbaum
(01:24):
Open Science Institute forsupporting the Curious Neuron
podcast, as well as theMcConnell Foundation.
Without them, this podcastwould not be possible, and
without you, this podcast wouldnot be possible, as well Apple
Podcasts or on Spotify.
It is really important to leavereviews and at least to rate it
and to make sure that you aresubscribed, because all of these
(01:48):
metrics show that you care, andthe bigger those numbers get,
the better it is for the podcast.
On that note, there might besome changes happening this
coming September with thepodcast.
I might be cutting it down totwo episodes per month instead
of four, so not weekly episodesand what we might do is switch
(02:11):
some of these conversations tothe new community that I'm
building, called the ReflectiveParent Club, and we are testing
things out this summer.
This episode, for instance, thevideo, will not be on YouTube.
The video of my conversationwith Dr Victoria Talwar will be
(02:32):
on the platform of theReflective Parent Club, and we
are going to be bringing some ofthese conversations to the club
because there's just a fewchanges that I need to make and
they were not easy decisionsbecause I just am really
struggling with the idea ofperhaps having to stop the
podcast.
It's a lot of work and yeah, soI'm not sure what's happening
(02:56):
with the podcast, but I don'twant to completely stop it, so
I'm testing out cutting it downa little bit to see what the
reaction is and what theresponse.
So, if you are somebody thatdoes listen to the podcast, send
me an email at info atkirstenrauncom.
Say hi.
I just want to know who you areand connect, and I am taking
time to speak with 100 parents,people that listen to the
(03:17):
podcast, people that follow onInstagram, people that are part
of the newsletter.
It doesn't matter where you arefrom.
I want to speak with youbecause I want to see if there's
something different than apodcast that might meet your
needs.
I want to know what you arestruggling with when it comes to
your well-being and your needsand how you can support yourself
(03:37):
and, in the end, you do end upsupporting your child.
So it is important to have theright resources for you, and
that matters to me.
And, on that note, if you areinterested in learning more
about the Reflective Parent Club, you could visit our website,
kirstneroncom at the top.
By the way, it's a new website,so have a look at it.
(03:58):
And at the top now it says jointhe club.
You will see all theinformation every single week.
We have a live on Tuesdays at12.
And if you can't meet that, youcan't join that one.
There's another one at 8 pmEastern time, and we let go of
whatever is stuck on our minds.
And it's not just about lettinggo and venting.
(04:18):
Research shows that justventing is not is actually not a
good thing for us.
We need somebody to coach usand to support us, and that's
why we are training parents tobecome these reflective partners
for the person that they arelistening to.
So not only do you get to letit out, but you get to support
somebody else, and that justfeels so good and we guide you
(04:40):
through that.
So there will be theconversations with experts,
obviously clinicians andresearchers and authors, as I do
here, and there will also bethe weekly calls with me, where
we learn to let go of certainthings, and there's a beautiful
platform where you could learnfrom other parents and inspire
other parents and be inspired byother parents.
(05:02):
It's just really a comfortingplace.
So far, with the small teststhat we've been doing, it just
feels good for me.
I'm enjoying being part of it,so I hope that you will come
join us.
Come have a look and join thewaitlist.
Kirstneroncom.
Click on the top banner to justat least put your name there,
because there will only be onediscount offered and that will
(05:26):
be at the launch in September,so you don't want to miss it All
right.
So I don't want you to wait anylonger, because this
conversation is truly aninteresting one.
Get your notebook out you mighthave to listen to this one twice
or you can click on the linkbelow and you can have access to
Dr Talwar's book the TruthAbout Lying.
I will put the link there forAmazon in Canada and the United
(05:48):
States and, as I said, she is aprofessor at McGill University
here in Montreal, in the Facultyof Education, and she is also
the department chair, which shehas been since 2020.
I will put a few of Dr Talwar'spapers in the show notes as
well, because she does haveseminal papers, these papers
(06:11):
that all researchers refer to.
She has just such importantwork and I was excited when she
agreed to join me on the podcast, and so I hope you enjoy the
conversation with Dr VictoriaTalwar.
Welcome back everyone and, aspromised, I'm here with Victoria
Talwar Welcome.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Oh, thank you, I'm so glad to be here.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
I'm so glad to have this.
I'm excited to have thisconversation and I thoroughly
enjoyed your book.
I love the title first of all,the Truth About Lying and I
posted a question box onInstagram to try to see if there
were questions, and I did get alot of questions, so we're
going to try to keep it shortand to the point, but I really
invite everyone to click on thelink in the show notes of this
(06:55):
podcast to purchase your book,and I had some educators as well
, and early childhood educatorsreach out saying that this was
something that they needed forthemselves as well, so I know
they'll be listening to thispodcast episode.
So, before we do begin, I'dlike to get to know you a little
bit more.
I shared your bio at thebeginning, but how did you make
your way into this area ofresearch?
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Well, I was really interested in actually
children's cognitive development, and so I was quite interested
in how they start to understandthe world about them and start
to understand how their ownthoughts and beliefs are
different from other people'sthoughts and beliefs and start
to be able to understand thatdifferent people have different
perspectives and things likethat.
(07:38):
And that kind of led me tolooking at lie telling, because
lie telling is an interesting interms of cognitive ability.
You have to understand thatsomebody to create to be
successful in your lie.
You're trying to create a falsebelief in someone.
You're trying to make thembelieve something that isn't
true, and to be able to do that,you just need to begin with
(08:01):
need to understand that they,you can have knowledge that they
don't have, um, and that youcan have, uh, you can create um,
their beliefs about the worldand create a false belief in
their mind, and that's actuallya sophisticated a cognitive
ability, and so I was interested.
You know at what age childrenstart to do this, and that's how
(08:24):
I got interested in children'slie telling begin with, and then
I realized there were actuallywasn't that much scientific
research on lie telling ingeneral, and so that was the
beginning of my area of research.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
I love this and I think that's a good segue into
the beginning of thisconversation, where I feel that
a lot of parents think thattheir two or three-year-old
maybe three-year-old will saythings like I didn't do it or I
didn't take that, and weautomatically get really upset
about this because we see thatas their first lie.
When I was reading your book, Iwas sort of reminded that
perhaps we're reacting a littlebit too quickly and too harshly
(09:00):
with those first lies and, likeyou just said, it is such a
complicated process.
So what are we seeing?
Is that considered a lie when avery young child says, no, I
didn't do that?
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yeah, you know it's, it's so well.
One good news for parents is iswhen they're young, children do
start telling a lie, where youcan tell that they're like
intentionally trying to fib,it's a sign of their cognitive
maturity.
So that's a different mindset,that's right.
So you can see like, okay,they're advancing in their
understanding of the world.
(09:32):
You might still want to teachthem not to lie, but you can see
it as it's an outcome of thisvery positive cognitive
development.
However, very young children'slies sometimes may not actually
be intentional lies.
So, for instance, I give anexample.
(09:59):
You know there was an example,for instance, a researcher back
in the time who did some studieson kind of diaries of
children's behavior, and ClaraSturge.
She noted that her, forinstance, daughter they were
taking a walk up a hill and theywere pointing out sites from
the top of this hill to herthree-year-old daughter and she
noticed that you know theystarted to think, oh, is she
really seeing what we'repointing out to her?
So they pointed to in adirection to.
They said, oh, see the castle.
And there was no castle there.
And the girl just said, yes, Isee the castle and in that case
(10:26):
just said, yes, I see the castleand in that case there wasn't.
It's not.
We called um, she called thosepseudo lies and what that case?
The child is kind of almostgiving an affirmation because
they it's wish fulfillment, theywant to see whatever you're
pointing out to them and they'reused to adults knowing more
than them.
So they're like they a castle.
There must be a castle there.
Yes, I see it, because I wantto be part of what you're seeing
(10:48):
too.
I want to be, and you as theparent, you as the adult, know
more than I do.
So we have to be sometimes becareful of these sort of
acquiescent types of statementsthat we might see as lies.
But maybe the child isn'treally intentionally trying to
fool us in those early ages.
But when you know when theirchild is like purposely, you
(11:08):
know for sure denying somethingthat you know that they know
that they did, then that's morean example of where you see an
intentional lie.
Like you know, did you eat thatcookie that they know they're
not supposed to eat beforedinner?
And they say, no, I didn't eatthat cookie.
That's a much more intentionalexample of intentional lie.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Which takes again a lot more cognitive skills.
So we should sort of be happy,maybe in line with what you just
said.
I, my children now are five,seven and nine, and when they
were a little bit younger Inoticed that some of their
friends, or themselves as well,would come up with some sort of
story.
They would say, oh, I visitedthe river behind the house and
there's absolutely no riverbehind her home.
(11:49):
And they would have like thesestories together.
Is there a part of this?
When they're young, that's justimagination and creativity, and
we see it as you're not tellingthe truth, because I remember
sometimes the parents of some ofthese kids would get really
upset and say we haven't walkedby a river today.
Why are you saying that?
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Yes, and that's we have to understand with very
young children.
They it's part of theirimaginary play, it's part of
their pretend play to come upwith all these things and they
can sometimes confuse it intheir narratives that they're
telling you about the day.
So they can tell you you know,we went to the zoo, we did this,
we did that, and it's kind ofpart of their imaginary play
(12:26):
that they're kind of conflatingand part of what they're doing.
And we need to understand that.
That is a normal part ofchildhood, especially very young
children or preschool children,because their imaginary play is
a big part of their play andit's okay, you know a big part
(12:47):
of their, of their play and itit's it's okay, you know, um,
and if you're concerned about it, you can just say gently okay,
oh, so that was.
You know, if you, uh, that waspart of your pretend play or
that was a good imagination,that was lots of fun, you know.
Just to distinguish for themthat this was not real and this
was real.
But on the other hand, youdon't need to worry about it too
much that they're likeintentionally telling you these
(13:07):
elaborate stories, becausethey're often just doing as part
of their imagery play, and aschildren get older, especially
as they get to grade school,they start to distinguish
between this and this becomesless part of their narrative
that they come to tell you.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Right Part of what you mentioned in your book and
something that I feel is acrossthe board with parenting is it
starts with us and what'shappening in the home, and how
do we model certain things.
And that's what I understood aswell is that we have to think
about what we're modeling aswell in terms of being dishonest
and honest.
Can you explain a little bitmore in terms of?
There was a parent who wrote into me after she found out that
(13:45):
I was going to speak with youand said that she had a very bad
habit of telling white lies andthat she was raised in a home
where her own parents wouldoften tell white lies, and so
she got stuck in that habit, butnow has a very young kid and
she's worried that they're goingto learn the same habits.
How do we start with ourselves?
Do we have to kind of reflecton what our honesty and
(14:06):
dishonesty habits are?
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Yeah, and I think that mother's already caught on
to something that's true, thatwe actually learn from our
parents.
So, as a result, we learnbehaviors like honesty or when
to lie or not to lie, oftenthrough what we've seen our
parents do.
So we have to think as parentsin terms of lying and so many
(14:30):
other behaviors we are modelingto our kids.
So we have to think okay, whatis important to us?
And then I need to make surethat I'm sort of showing that to
my child, because you know wecan, words are great and we
should use our words to explain,and so children can understand.
(14:50):
But if we are then sort ofundermining our words by doing
something different, we're sortof teaching them actually.
Well, this is the kind of thewindow dressing and this is what
we actually do, you know.
So I think, parents, honesty isan important one to think about
.
What we, what each one of us,finds important, because you
(15:13):
know, are you going to teachthem honesty is the best policy,
but then you yourself willoccasionally tell a lie for a
certain reason.
Well, then you have to thinkokay, what is it that you really
believe?
How do you show honesty?
Are there times that you do lieand if so, what do you think
(15:35):
about those times?
Are you comfortable with thefact that you lie in those
situations?
And then are you?
Next question is are youcomfortable for your children to
lie in those types ofsituations?
And are you comfortable thentelling you those lies?
Right, because research showsthat parents who tell lies to
their children their children,and especially not the
(15:55):
occasional lie, but that isfrequent enough that the
children remember it inadulthood, because these are
retrospective studies with sortof grown-up children.
When they have that as afeature of their sort of
relationship with their parents,they are less likely to feel
(16:16):
close to their parents and theyare more likely to lie to their
parents on a regular kind ofbasis.
So you have to think about it.
If you're not comfortable withyour children lying in those
situations, then think about whynot, and then think about
whether you want to demonstratethat behavior and also what is
the message you want to give.
(16:36):
So we need to think about thesequestions for ourselves and
it's easier to think about themin advance, before we get to
that situation, so that we canmake sure that the messages we
give with our children arecongruent with what we believe
and what our behavior is.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
And I think of moments when you do find out
that somebody lied to you, oreven as a child, remembering a
moment where my mother did lieto me and there were good
reasons behind it.
But you do think about like,didn't you trust me or didn't
you want to tell me the truth?
And then you think about thetrust that you have with this
person.
What if something else is a lie?
I've had this conversation withparents because some of us had
(17:16):
to.
You know, our children don'twant us to leave at night.
So if you have a dinner with afriend, I had a friend who just
had to lie every single time andtell her kids that you know
they were going into thebasement or going somewhere that
was in the house, but daddy wasgoing to put you to bed, but in
the end they were leaving thehome to come out for dinner and
we would have this conversationback and forth because they felt
(17:36):
that this was the only way forthem to leave the home.
But I always questioned, likewhat would happen if your kids
did find out that you weren't inthe house that night?
That there's a a trust issuethat gets um, that there's an
impact on that yes, and that'sreally something we have to
think about with our children.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
if we're lying to them, right, it's about the
trust and in fact when peoplelie to us we get upset because
there's been a violation oftrust.
So if you discover your friendhas lied to you, you suddenly
feel a little bit differentlyabout your relationship with
your friend.
If your child why parents oftenI have to counsel parents not
(18:13):
to you know to realize thesituation and keep it within you
know perspective when theirchild first lies to them, even
though it's a little lie, likeyou know, did you eat the cookie
?
Sometimes parents can get veryupset and the reason is it's
like my child is lying to me andthey feel a violation of that
trust.
I should you know, how can Ibelieve that my child would lie
(18:34):
to me?
So we have to remember that wedon't like to be lied to and it
is often considered a violationof trust.
So we need to think about thatwhen we tell lies, because if
children discover that they'rebeing lied to such as you know
mommy conceals, you know goingout and sneaks out of the house
(18:57):
that in the end, when theydiscover it, could do worse
damage than having to moreactively.
So the harder problem is, youknow, the most immediate harder
problem is dealing with the.
How do I get to go out and seemy friends for a night out?
And sometimes lying is an easieroption in the short term, but
(19:20):
the long term it may not be.
You know it means havingconversations with children,
maybe not always when you'rejust about to go out at other
times, but children having tolearn about their parents.
Their parents are also peoplewho have feelings and needs and
that they have to learn that.
(19:40):
It's important that ourchildren learn to have
consideration for us as well asthem, and that also it's
important that for youngchildren who may still not be
able to, they understand thatyou're not abandoning them.
So as long as they feel thatlove and they're they're, they
start to come and they may.
That doesn't mean that a child,you know, won't be upset when
(20:02):
the first time or second time.
But they become to realize that, oh, mommy does go away, she
loves me regardless and shecomes back and she still loves
me and she comes back.
It's the same with a child thatgoes to daycare.
The first couple of times theygo to daycare they're really
upset and you, you know, youhave a loving, strong
relationship with the child.
But there's still they have toget used to that separation
(20:24):
anxiety, right, and it's hard todeal with.
But you have to get through itand teach the child and the
child starts to understand oh,mommy comes back and gets me,
you know, and I'm still lovedand we still have this really
close bond.
But yeah, it can be hard.
I mean it's hard for everyparent to go through that.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
But there's a lot of learning that happens in those
uncomfortable moments orunpleasant emotions for that
child, which is important too.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Yeah, and it's about helping them get through those,
those and helping them deal withit, rather than sort of trying
to avoid it.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
I get that there's a white lie that I think many of
us put on our children, but it'swhen you receive a gift and I
know that this comes up in a lotof conversations as well
because children are honest andthey will let you know if they
don't like something.
But when you're, they're young,I think as parents, you feel
embarrassed that they werehonest about it and you feel bad
(21:20):
for that person right, thatgrandparent or, you know, aunt
or uncle.
Is that a mistake, or are theselittle white lies okay to teach
them?
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Well, that's exactly the thing that a parent has to
ask themselves, like you know,because then children get very
young children will get confusedabout, like you know, is it
okay or not to lie or not.
Older children can start tounderstand the intentions behind
a lie and if someone's tryingto intend to do something that's
good to you know, preservesomeone else's feelings and they
will see those lies.
As you know, preserve someoneelse's feelings and they will
see those lies as being, youknow, not as bad, for instance.
(21:53):
But for younger children theysee things in a very, you know,
black and white kind of way andthey don't necessarily
understand.
But you have to think about youknow what you want to teach
your child, about honesty andabout when it's okay to lie or
not lie, and then make that youknow, make sure your messages to
that is clear, because someparents may teach their children
(22:15):
that you know what to say.
I have a funny story.
A colleague had athree-year-old and they had to
go to visit their grandmotherfor Christmas and it was like an
hour's drive or something.
And they get there and thechild got something that the
child didn't like and theyopened it up and said I don't
like it and they caused a lot ofupset on Christmas day.
(22:37):
So the next year they coachedher on the way, saying you know,
when grandma gives you apresent you have to say you like
it and thank her for it orwhatever.
And she got there, she openedit up and she kind of looked at
it and then looked at her dadand in this big stage whisper
said daddy, what do I do?
I really like it.
That's so good, but we have tothink about like what it is and
(23:03):
then the messages forward and Imean one way to deal with it.
If you really want to teachyour child to be honest and you
don't want to teach them to tellthose to tell, even like a
polite we call I call thosepoliteness lies is you know,
teach them about, you know whatyou can role play with it.
You know and say you know what.
Why would you, what are, teachthem to say a simple thank you,
(23:28):
Thank you for giving them a gift, to show appreciation for
receiving a gift, or there'ssomething about the gift that
they like.
I got a book once from somebodywho I already had the book.
I'd read it and I realized thisperson had really thought about
what to get me and realized I'dreally like this author and
(23:50):
went and got me this book.
And I was really touched by thegift because I realized they'd
really thought about what wouldbe like they just hadn't gotten
something random.
They 'd really thought aboutsomething that I would like and
indeed it was a book I liked.
And I said to them, I just said, but I also knew they didn't
have a lot of money and theydidn't have to get me a gift.
To them, I just said, but Ialso knew they didn't have a lot
(24:11):
of money and they didn't haveto get me a gift.
So it also reflected a bit of asacrifice of them because they
were not, they didn't have a lotof money.
It was a time in their life butthey'd wanted to get me
something to express to themtheir gratitude to me.
It was very touching and so Ididn't tell them oh, I've
already read it.
I just said thank you.
(24:32):
I, um, um, I can't believe you.
You know you've thought of meand that you know you realized
that I would love this author,you know, and I was really
touched by it and the giftreally meant a lot to me, even
though, um, I, uh, I had readthe book.
So the other book I gave awayto a charity shop and I kept
that book because that bookrepresented it.
It was more meaningful for me.
(24:52):
So you have to think of also,like gift giving is one of those
things where there's more thanjust how you feel about the gift
.
There's also the perspective ofthe other gift giver, and so
this can lead to some veryinteresting conversations with
children about more than justthe virtues of honesty, but also
about generosity andthoughtfulness and why.
(25:13):
You know why, thinking aboutthe perspective and feelings of
others and that may lead you totell a polite lie because you
realize the person's reallybeing thoughtful and you don't
want to make them feel upset, orit may lead you to find a way
to speak in a you know what Isay a tactful, kind way.
You know not being blunt inyour honesty like I've got this
(25:37):
book, what a waste.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
And it makes sense and I think those are beautiful
skills to teach our child,because they will have these
moments where they feeldisappointed about something and
we're teaching them that youdon't have to lie about it, but
there's a way to be kind aboutthat moment as well.
So, again, in that momentthere's just so much that
they're learning, rather thangoing to the easy route, trying
to teach them to lie Right.
Right, I get that we're goingto go into the how to teach
(26:08):
honesty, but I just have a fewquestions from parents and I
just want maybe to offer parentsa little bit of guidance.
Like I said at the beginning,everything is in your book and I
recommend that everybody readsthis, but what would you offer
in terms of a quick guide if youdo catch your child in a lie,
and would it be the same for ayoung child versus a teenager?
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Yeah, and I do go.
I expand on this a lot in thebook and I give some examples in
the book if people want to lookat those.
But you know, for as a generalrule, you know, with older
children you may be able to getinto more discussion and
generally you're going to get it.
You can get into more nuanceddiscussion about intentions,
(26:51):
consequences, et cetera, andfeelings.
But in the heat of the moment,with the lie, as a general rule,
with all children, younger orolder, you really want to stick
to what has happened.
So you want to A be calm aboutit.
That's important.
In that heat of the moment, wecan feel, like we just said,
it's a trust violation, so wecan feel upset, we can feel
(27:14):
angry, we can feel frustrated,we can feel all sorts of
emotions.
We need to be able to check ouremotions and it may mean that
you need to give yourself atimeout, so to speak, and just
deal with it in a moment whileyou like, get yourself under
control, because that'simportant, that we remain calm.
And then you want to, like youknow, label the fact that
they've just told you somethingdishonest and also potentially
(27:37):
talk about what the if it'ssomething they've transgressed
about.
You want to talk about that andthen come up with and that's
why you want to haveconversations about honesty at
other times other than when youjust catch them in the lie,
because it's at those othertimes that you can have these
wider conversations.
And for young children thoseconversations may be more simple
(27:59):
but for the older ones you canhave much more longer, more
in-depth type of conversations.
But in that moment you canrefer back to these
conversations you've had and theprinciples and main ideas that
you refer to that withoutgetting into a long lecture.
Because if you get into a longlecture you know it's going to
get lost and certainly yourteenager is going to roll their
eyes at you and the little one'sgoing to get confused because
(28:22):
you're just talking, talking,talking.
So you want to just refer tothose and then get to sort of
the outcome, the consequences ofthe lie and the transgression.
So you know, one thing wesometimes do when children lie
is we just deal with the lie andwe forget to deal with the
transgression.
So if they like lie to youabout a small kid has lied to
(28:43):
you about drawing on the wall,we just get all upset that they
lied to us.
But we also have to deal withthe fact that they need to learn
you do not draw on the wall.
And what are the consequencesof doing that?
Well, now you have to helpmommy.
You have to go clean it up,right?
So we we need to deal with bothof us the same, like if a
teenager lies to you about youknow being a curfew time and we
(29:11):
get all upset that they're lyingto us and we get all broiled in
that that, oh, wait, a minute,about the curfew breakage.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
And you have to also deal with that, right?
Yeah, that's such good adviceand I know that parents
listening are saying the calmpart, that first step to what
you just said, can be so hard,because it's it's also the fact
that you feel like I parentedyou and I taught you not to lie
and to be honest.
And how could you do this?
Whether they're young or older,I just mine are still young,
(29:35):
but I know that in those momentssometimes it's so hard to stay
calm because you just see it asa violation of so many things
and you're disappointed in themand yourself.
What did you do wrong?
And you start to questioneverything.
One thing that was interestingfrom your book is I realized
that we focus a lot on the lies,even by reading, and I realized
(29:55):
that within our home we focus alot on talking about not lying,
but that we need to switch theconversation into what honesty
looks like and why it'simportant.
One of the examples that stoodout to me was when you spoke
about the books or the storieswe talk about, and we've told
all our three kids a story aboutthe boy who cried wolf, and
that's part of what I did, whatI heard when I was young, and
(30:21):
Pinocchio and all of that.
But now I realize, because youmentioned a book I forget the
name of it or a story that'sfocused on the honesty piece.
So do you think that's wherethere's lots of room for change
in homes, where we should behaving or switching that
conversation?
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Yeah, and I think we often focus about lying is bad,
and that's okay.
I think it's.
We need to tell children, youknow lying is bad, but we also
need to talk about what ishonesty.
What is truth telling?
What does it look like?
How is one honest?
So, for instance, in ourresearch we found that actually
the story.
So we had a story about GeorgeWashington who cuts down his
(30:52):
cherry tree when he's a childand then he later gets asked
about it by his dad and he endsup confessing and his father is
not happy about the cherry treebeing cut down but he's proud
that his son told the truth.
And that story we found and wetold that to American children,
but we also told it to childrenwho weren't American, canadians,
who had never heard that story,and we found that it was still
(31:16):
powerful for both sets ofchildren.
Because the reason being wasthat and we've now tested it
with like a non-GeorgeWashington story where we change
the characters, it isn't GeorgeWashington, but it's the same
principles, and the principlesare the character's done
something wrong, a transgression.
They are asked about it andthey choose to tell the truth
(31:38):
about it and then there's apositive reaction to that.
The world doesn't end when theytell the truth, because that's
what children fear right.
They often fear the world isgoing to come to an end.
Maybe if I lie I'll avoid theworld coming to the end.
Mommy might not get angry andupset with me.
So I'll go for broke and I'lllie about it and maybe I'll
(32:00):
escape all of that.
But they also fear that if theyget caught in it like the
world's going to come to the end, whereas telling the truth
about a transgression seemsreally hard, right, because oh,
mommy's going to be really angrywith me.
But when they see these storieswhere they see the character
tell the truth, one, itdemonstrates to them how does
(32:21):
one tell the truth about one'stransgression.
That's a hard thing to do,right, you have to be brave and
you have to say none of us wantto tell the truth, right, you
have to be brave and you have to, like, say none of us want to
tell the truth, but we've donesomething wrong, right.
And so it demonstrates it, itmodels it for them.
But it also shows them that,you know, maybe that is valued,
right.
The, the, the parent in thestory, is glad that they told
(32:44):
the truth, that they are.
So that's also to see somepositive outcome, that the world
doesn't end when you actuallytell the truth.
And there are other storieslike that too, where it shows
how to be honest and that thathonesty is valued and has some
positive consequence to it,because our fears are often.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
The reason we lie is often because we fear what the
consequences are if we tell thetruth, even as adults right,
sometimes we lie to somebodybecause we don't want to hurt
their feelings or we don't want,we don't get in trouble like a
child will, but there will besome sort of consequence,
whether it's at work or with afriend or a family member.
So it's, it's kind of similar.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
It is kind of similar and, as a result, though, as
parents, we have to think aboutthat, you know.
That means that what thatimplication is and I explain
this more in the book and I givesome examples but it means also
that you need to recognizehonesty when your child is it?
So if your child's drawn on thewall and they tell you
(33:42):
truthfully it was them that drewon the wall, before you react
to them drawing on the wall andgetting all upset, take a moment
to say I'm glad you told me thetruth.
I really appreciate that.
You told me that you'd givethem some credit and some
recognition for when they arehonest, even sometimes if
they're telling you somethingyou don't want to hear.
(34:03):
So I realized, I realized,thinking about this a lot, I
realized I wanted to know when Ibombed on cooking or baking,
because I was like I don't wantto have to like constantly make
the thing that they don't likeanymore.
So I was like I don't care whatit is, just give me the truth,
give me the truth.
And then I realized they werebeing polite and they were like
(34:24):
well, it's not the worst and I'mlike okay, on a scale of one to
10, what it is on a scale ofone to ten what it is.
Because I thought I actually,even though it's going to hurt
me, I want to know the truth, toknow I need to show.
So I sort of set it up, I'mokay, and so even then they'd be
polite.
So finally I've learned.
The question is, should I makeit again?
And usually that's when Ithey're like there's other stuff
(34:48):
you could make.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Okay, I won't make that again but think I you know
when I think of that as aquality, even now between my
friends, the ones that arehonest with me, polite and
honest, but tell me the truth,those are the ones that I have a
better or closer relationshipwith, because I know that if I'm
doing something that'scompletely out of norm, that
they're going to say Cindy, comeback to this Like that's not
(35:16):
you, or I don't like it when yousay this, or you know.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
No, that's sure it's not really for you.
I know that they'll be honest,so it's such a good quality.
We actually really value thatin people.
But you said something reallyimportant, and that's what we
have to teach our children ishow to speak in a kind but
truthful way Right, Because I doknow people that are truthful
but don't have the kind aspectno, no, yeah, that we don't, we
don't, we can't always handlethat.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
No, so I guess my next question was is about like
how to teach honesty.
But from what you've beensaying in the past few minutes,
it's really about how we'rehighlighting moments of honesty
in ourselves, in our children,and highlighting the importance
of honesty through stories foryoung kids or moments, as well,
with older kids.
Yeah, that's what I'munderstanding.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Yeah, you have to have conversations and it's not
going to be one conversation,it's going to be conversations.
But if honesty is somethingimportant to you, it's going to
come up time and time again.
I mean, you're going to be outand you're going to notice, like
you know, someone is honest atthe.
You know they're paying forsomething and they get extra
change and they honestly give itback.
(36:16):
Comment upon that to your child.
Notice, we notice a lot of thelies and the negative things in
the world that happen in thenews and everything around us,
but also reflect upon those goodthings when you see them and
sort of just narrate them to thechild.
Oh look, isn't that personbeing kind, or isn't that?
Look how that person was honest.
Because, so that they start tosee that the world around them
(36:39):
also people are exhibiting thesepositive behaviors, these
virtues that we're teaching themand orient to them.
And also you're going to talkto them about it.
Sometimes they're going to betruthful, Sometimes they're
going to lie, Sometimes you'regoing to have lies or truth.
You know, in the familysituation you can talk about
these, but also when you're notin those situations, having
(37:01):
conversations about why is thisimportant?
Oh, somebody in the news waslying.
You know why.
Why are?
Why are people upset about that?
What?
What is that implication,especially as children get older
?
You can have a quite in-depthconversations.
When children are little,you're going to have much more
simple conversations, butstories are a really great way
to start having thoseconversations with the young
(37:23):
children before I go to the lastquestion, there was one
question that came up from aparent and I thought that was
kind of interesting.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
So if, if your child lies to you, and I think their
child's about eight years old,or seven or eight, do you pursue
a confession?
So if they're not, if you knowthat they've done something and
they just don't want to say itand again it's probably with
that age, it's probably becausethey don't want to get in
trouble Do you just keep pushingfor that confession from them?
Speaker 2 (37:49):
Well, it depends on the situation.
One thing I do say and I giveexamples in the book don't set
them up to lie.
So if you take the example ofthe kids scribbling on the wall,
if you know that they'vescribbled on the wall because
you walked in the room and yousaw the hand up and it went down
, but you saw it and you knowthat they did it, don't say did
(38:10):
you scribble on the wall?
You know that already.
Just deal with the scribblingon the wall.
Why give yourself doubletrouble by now inviting them to
potentially lie to you and thenyou have to deal with the
scribbling on the wall and thelie.
So just say you're scribblingon the wall and then deal with
that.
So we have to be careful not toset kids up and then we actually
create a situation that we thenhave to deal with.
(38:32):
That makes it harder.
So we have to be careful.
If you actually know what theydid like, if that child's late
on curfew, you know what timedid you get in last night.
You know perfectly well whattime they got in, you heard them
, you were paying attention, youwere awake.
Why invite them to lie and dealwith that?
So I would be careful aboutcreating situations.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
We sometimes do that, I think we do it as like a test
right.
We want to see will my child behonest with me in this moment?
But then in the end, from whatI'm understanding is there's no
point.
You're just creating a morecomplicated situation.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
You're creating a more complex situation and
potentially getting reallyexpanding the scope of what you
have to deal with and you geteven more upset.
You're already upset becauseyour child didn't do the curfew
or your child scribbled on thewall.
Just deal with that.
The other one, in a way, isalmost entrapment.
You can think of it right, youknow what actually happened
(39:26):
there, so you don't need to testthem on that.
Just deal with what you have todeal with.
So I think you have to becareful about pursuing them for
the confession.
I would say that you know they achild might double down
sometimes on that.
If you are really starting tointerrogate them and that you
(39:49):
have to think about you have todeal with what the problem is
and deal with that.
And you also have to deal withanything that is where they're
not safe.
You know, if you're dealingwith anything where there's
potential harm harm to the child, harm to others you need to
deal with that immediately andthat's your greatest concern.
But you also have to thinkabout your relationship with
your child and maintaining apositive, strong relationship
(40:11):
and maintaining a positive,strong relationship and it could
be that if you get into asituation which is interrogative
and negative.
You might get into a negativespiral and it might be.
You know, just take a break onthat.
It may not really suit yourlong-term goals in terms of
building up a strongrelationship with your child
where you're actually developing, you know, a relationship where
(40:33):
there's more open communicationwith them.
So I would be careful about ifyou find that they're not
getting into an interrogationwith them.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
Right.
I think that's really goodadvice.
I think we do get stucksometimes in that and I feel
that, thinking back again to mychildhood, when you're stuck in
that cycle of interrogation, Ifeel like you lie because you
just want to get out of it.
You're like, yep, yeah, sure Idid that or I didn't.
I just remember those momentsof being interrogated as a child
sometimes and it's difficult,it's, it's consuming.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
Yes, exactly, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
I get that.
One person reached out and saidthat they work with children
who have some level of traumaand some challenges and they
were curious to know when is ita red flag or when is it a
warning sign?
When is lying considered a redflag for something?
Would you have advice tosomebody who's listening saying
(41:25):
well, you know, my child hasbeen lying quite a bit lately?
And just before we answer that,there's a part of your book as
well where you talk about theparenting style I think that's
something we don't think aboutvery often and how that
parenting style can increase thelikelihood of a child lying,
from what I understood.
So maybe we can quickly touchon that.
(41:47):
But what I really want to getinto is when is this a sign of
something else the lying aspect,but what I really want to get
into is when is this a sign ofsomething else?
Speaker 2 (41:55):
the lying aspect.
Well, I think this brings upthree important things to
consider.
One thing that I haven't spokenof yet and yet it's a whole
chapter in my book, and then I'mconstantly referring back to it
and a really key, importantpart in terms of all of what we
talked about is the motivation.
What is the motivation for thechildren to lie?
Is the motivation?
What is the motivation for thechildren to lie?
(42:16):
Sometimes their motivation isbecause they're scared of
something, like one example Igive in the book where child was
lying about eating lunch.
They told their mom they wereeating their lunch and the mom
discovered they weren't havingany lunch because the teacher
reported it that the kid wastired or whatever.
Kid wasn't eating the lunch.
And upon further investigation,the child was being bullied and
(42:37):
their lunch was being takenfrom them.
But they were lying about itbecause they felt shame and they
were scared about repercussionsof the bully and things like
that.
So that's a case where there'sharm being done to the child but
the child's concealing that outof fear.
There are other motivations thatmay be relevant to how you deal
with the lie.
So you really do need to lookat what's behind the lie.
(42:59):
What's the motivated?
How is the child perceivingwhat's happening?
And this is also relevant inchildren who have suffered
trauma.
They have suffered significanttrauma in their lives.
One of the reasons that wesometimes conceal information or
lie is because we're scared outof fear or self-protection.
(43:20):
So in these cases, if childrenwho are trauma-informed, if
we're dealing with them, we needto think about what is the
motivation, what has theirprevious experience told them
about how the world reacts tothem or reacts to certain things
, why they may be telling lies,because that may help us deal
with that lie in a better way.
(43:42):
That gets at the root cause ofwhy they're lying.
And this also gets to the pointthat you were making about
parenting styles.
When us as parents, aseducators or anyone in a
caregiving role with a child ora youth, we have to think about
how we interact in a way that'svery warm and supportive, but
also firm.
There are certain rules.
(44:03):
We expect children to abide bythe rules, but we communicate
those rules in a very clear wayto them and we have a warm
relationship where we reallywork on the bond in that
relationship.
This has longer term impact onchildren.
It doesn't mean that childrenwon't tell necessarily a lie or
(44:23):
fib occasionally, but in thelonger term it has better
outcomes in terms of they'remore likely to feel that sense
of trust with you and thatyou'll nurture that relationship
, and that they're more likelyto be open and tell you.
And this becomes really critical.
We laugh about the child eatingthe cookie that they're not
(44:44):
supposed to eat or scribbling onthe walls, but there are times
where you really want your childto come and tell you because
something's happening that youneed to know about, that's
putting the child in potentialharm's way or someone's hurting
the child, or they're engagingin something that's really of
concern or they're with peersthat are engaging in risky
(45:05):
business and you want them tofeel that they can come to you
and that they can tell you.
Them to feel that they can cometo you and that they can tell
you.
And you want to have arelationship where they feel
they can tell you stuff, evenstuff they know that's not going
to make you happy and you mightbe upset with, but they know
that you'll be able to listenand hear them and hear their
fears and how they feel and thatyou will create space where you
(45:29):
will listen to them, and that'simportant for them to know,
because then they're more likelyto tell you the stuff that you
really do want to know.
Speaker 1 (45:36):
That's really crucial for you to know, and I think
what we need to highlight is youmentioned limits and boundaries
still exist, because I know alot of parents struggle with
that these days in terms of likesetting those limits and those
boundaries but you're stillputting them, you're still
having these in your home, butyou're showing them that worth,
that warmth piece, like you said, and that's truly key to to
(45:59):
parenting.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
Yeah, they have to feel that Um so what?
What um can lead to more lyingis when we're very punitive.
So, as research has shown thatin environments that are very
punitive, where you're going toget in, you get into a lot of
trouble.
Even for minor offenses it canbe harsh punitive kind of
environments, it actuallypromotes lying because in those
(46:22):
environments lying is actuallyan adaptive sort of strategy to
manage survival in thoseenvironments.
So you lie because you're goingto get into a lot of trouble,
no matter what you lie to tryand mitigate those negative
impact on you.
But in environments which arewarm and supportive, lying
(46:45):
becomes actually more adetractor of that relationship.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
Thank you for everything that you shared today
.
I don't know if there'sanything else you'd like to add
to this, but I think we coveredin little, bite-sized pieces
everything that you had in yourbook, and I know there's a lot
more there, so, once again, thelink is in the show notes.
Is there anything else, awebsite or something you'd like
to share with everyone, to reachout to you or learn more from
you?
Speaker 2 (47:11):
Yeah well, just check out the book.
They can get it on Amazon or atthe bookstore.
Canada and the US Yep in Canadaand the US, and there's lots of
examples and examples of how tohave conversations, examples
how to deal with certain wedidn't talk about it, but also
secret keeping and tattling arealso things that we have to deal
(47:35):
with as parents and how we dealwith that, and also information
about what to do if you feelthat your child's lying is
problematic.
You know to seek help on that.
Speaker 1 (47:46):
Is there just a quick info for that?
When should a parent maybespeak to?
Who?
Would you speak to your doctorabout it?
Reach out to a therapist.
Speaker 2 (47:55):
Yeah, so you can go to a pediatrician or a therapist
or ask at your school theschool psychologist or counselor
for referral, and you should doit whenever you see that it's a
persistent behavior that haslasted for a while, that is
affecting the relationshipeither your relationship with
(48:15):
them or other relationships, oris related to other sort of
negative behaviors, and it needsto be like for a period of time
, like six months or more a year, that you've seen that.
Or if a parent is really havingstruggling dealing with this
problem, then they should getadvice and get help, because
(48:35):
there's lots of help out there.
Speaker 1 (48:37):
Yeah, and it's OK to ask for help too and support.
I think that's important forparents to know.
Thank you again.
Everything that we mentioned,all the links, will be in the
show notes.
The book and the child's bookswill put some links in the show
notes as well.
Thank you, Victoria.
I really appreciated ourconversation.
Speaker 2 (48:58):
Oh, thank you.
Hello, my dear friend , welcome back to another
episode of the Curious Neuronpodcast.
My name is Cindy Huffington andI am your host.
Today we have a prettyinteresting topic, something
that I have never covered before, and I'm really excited to have
one of the world experts onchild deception from right here
at McGill University and we hadsuch an interesting conversation
(00:22):
that focused around parts ofher book as well in her research
, obviously.
Um, I had, uh, the opportunityto read her book and I just
think that it's a book that wehave to all have in our houses.
We need this book in our homesbecause it just answers so many
questions that parents haveasked me before that I didn't
(00:42):
have the answers to.
And when we think of parentingbooks, sometimes we think of,
you know, just the generalemotions books, which are
important, but the idea ofteaching our children how to
tell the truth and to betruthful and not to deceive us
and not to lie.
That's a pretty big topic andmost of us don't know how to
(01:03):
navigate things when ourchildren, you know, lie to us or
how to model certain things.
I know it sounds easy, right tomodel honesty, but my
conversation with her made merealize that there were a few
things that I needed to changewithin my home, and I know that
you're going to learn a lot fromthis conversation.
So before I begin, as always,I'd like to thank the Tannenbaum
(01:24):
Open Science Institute forsupporting the Curious Neuron
podcast, as well as theMcConnell Foundation.
Without them, this podcastwould not be possible, and
without you, this podcast wouldnot be possible, as well Apple
Podcasts or on Spotify.
It is really important to leavereviews and at least to rate it
and to make sure that you aresubscribed, because all of these
(01:48):
metrics show that you care, andthe bigger those numbers get,
the better it is for the podcast.
On that note, there might besome changes happening this
coming September with thepodcast.
I might be cutting it down totwo episodes per month instead
of four, so not weekly episodesand what we might do is switch
(02:11):
some of these conversations tothe new community that I'm
building, called the ReflectiveParent Club, and we are testing
things out this summer.
This episode, for instance, thevideo, will not be on YouTube.
The video of my conversationwith Dr Victoria Talwar will be
(02:32):
on the platform of theReflective Parent Club, and we
are going to be bringing some ofthese conversations to the club
because there's just a fewchanges that I need to make and
they were not easy decisionsbecause I just am really
struggling with the idea ofperhaps having to stop the
podcast.
It's a lot of work and yeah, soI'm not sure what's happening
(02:56):
with the podcast, but I don'twant to completely stop it, so
I'm testing out cutting it downa little bit to see what the
reaction is and what theresponse.
So, if you are somebody thatdoes listen to the podcast, send
me an email at info atkirstenrauncom.
Say hi.
I just want to know who you areand connect, and I am taking
time to speak with 100 parents,people that listen to the
(03:17):
podcast, people that follow onInstagram, people that are part
of the newsletter.
It doesn't matter where you arefrom.
I want to speak with youbecause I want to see if there's
something different than apodcast that might meet your
needs.
I want to know what you arestruggling with when it comes to
your well-being and your needsand how you can support yourself
(03:37):
and, in the end, you do end upsupporting your child.
So it is important to have theright resources for you, and
that matters to me.
And, on that note, if you areinterested in learning more
about the Reflective Parent Club, you could visit our website,
kirstneroncom at the top.
By the way, it's a new website,so have a look at it.
(03:58):
And at the top now it says jointhe club.
You will see all theinformation every single week.
We have a live on Tuesdays at12.
And if you can't meet that, youcan't join that one.
There's another one at 8 pmEastern time, and we let go of
whatever is stuck on our minds.
And it's not just about lettinggo and venting.
(04:18):
Research shows that justventing is not is actually not a
good thing for us.
We need somebody to coach usand to support us, and that's
why we are training parents tobecome these reflective partners
for the person that they arelistening to.
So not only do you get to letit out, but you get to support
somebody else, and that justfeels so good and we guide you
(04:40):
through that.
So there will be theconversations with experts,
obviously clinicians andresearchers and authors, as I do
here, and there will also bethe weekly calls with me, where
we learn to let go of certainthings, and there's a beautiful
platform where you could learnfrom other parents and inspire
other parents and be inspired byother parents.
(05:02):
It's just really a comfortingplace.
So far, with the small teststhat we've been doing, it just
feels good for me.
I'm enjoying being part of it,so I hope that you will come
join us.
Come have a look and join thewaitlist.
Kirstneroncom.
Click on the top banner to justat least put your name there,
because there will only be onediscount offered and that will
(05:26):
be at the launch in September,so you don't want to miss it All
right.
So I don't want you to wait anylonger, because this
conversation is truly aninteresting one.
Get your notebook out you mighthave to listen to this one twice
or you can click on the linkbelow and you can have access to
Dr Talwar's book the TruthAbout Lying.
I will put the link there forAmazon in Canada and the United
(05:48):
States and, as I said, she is aprofessor at McGill University
here in Montreal, in the Facultyof Education, and she is also
the department chair, which shehas been since 2020.
I will put a few of Dr Talwar'spapers in the show notes as
well, because she does haveseminal papers, these papers
(06:11):
that all researchers refer to.
She has just such importantwork and I was excited when she
agreed to join me on the podcast, and so I hope you enjoy the
conversation with Dr VictoriaTalwar.
Welcome back everyone and, aspromised, I'm here with Victoria
Talwar Welcome.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Oh, thank you, I'm so glad to be here.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
I'm so glad to have this.
I'm excited to have thisconversation and I thoroughly
enjoyed your book.
I love the title first of all,the Truth About Lying and I
posted a question box onInstagram to try to see if there
were questions, and I did get alot of questions, so we're
going to try to keep it shortand to the point, but I really
invite everyone to click on thelink in the show notes of this
(06:55):
podcast to purchase your book,and I had some educators as well
, and early childhood educatorsreach out saying that this was
something that they needed forthemselves as well, so I know
they'll be listening to thispodcast episode.
So, before we do begin, I'dlike to get to know you a little
bit more.
I shared your bio at thebeginning, but how did you make
your way into this area ofresearch?
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Well, I was really interested in actually
children's cognitive development, and so I was quite interested
in how they start to understandthe world about them and start
to understand how their ownthoughts and beliefs are
different from other people'sthoughts and beliefs and start
to be able to understand thatdifferent people have different
perspectives and things likethat.
(07:38):
And that kind of led me tolooking at lie telling, because
lie telling is an interesting interms of cognitive ability.
You have to understand thatsomebody to create to be
successful in your lie.
You're trying to create a falsebelief in someone.
You're trying to make thembelieve something that isn't
true, and to be able to do that,you just need to begin with
(08:01):
need to understand that they,you can have knowledge that they
don't have, um, and that youcan have, uh, you can create um,
their beliefs about the worldand create a false belief in
their mind, and that's actuallya sophisticated a cognitive
ability, and so I was interested.
You know at what age childrenstart to do this, and that's how
(08:24):
I got interested in children'slie telling begin with, and then
I realized there were actuallywasn't that much scientific
research on lie telling ingeneral, and so that was the
beginning of my area of research.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
I love this and I think that's a good segue into
the beginning of thisconversation, where I feel that
a lot of parents think thattheir two or three-year-old
maybe three-year-old will saythings like I didn't do it or I
didn't take that, and weautomatically get really upset
about this because we see thatas their first lie.
When I was reading your book, Iwas sort of reminded that
perhaps we're reacting a littlebit too quickly and too harshly
(09:00):
with those first lies and, likeyou just said, it is such a
complicated process.
So what are we seeing?
Is that considered a lie when avery young child says, no, I
didn't do that?
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yeah, you know it's, it's so well.
One good news for parents is iswhen they're young, children do
start telling a lie, where youcan tell that they're like
intentionally trying to fib,it's a sign of their cognitive
maturity.
So that's a different mindset,that's right.
So you can see like, okay,they're advancing in their
understanding of the world.
(09:32):
You might still want to teachthem not to lie, but you can see
it as it's an outcome of thisvery positive cognitive
development.
However, very young children'slies sometimes may not actually
be intentional lies.
So, for instance, I give anexample.
(09:59):
You know there was an example,for instance, a researcher back
in the time who did some studieson kind of diaries of
children's behavior, and ClaraSturge.
She noted that her, forinstance, daughter they were
taking a walk up a hill and theywere pointing out sites from
the top of this hill to herthree-year-old daughter and she
noticed that you know theystarted to think, oh, is she
really seeing what we'repointing out to her?
So they pointed to in adirection to.
They said, oh, see the castle.
And there was no castle there.
And the girl just said, yes, Isee the castle and in that case
(10:26):
just said, yes, I see the castleand in that case there wasn't.
It's not.
We called um, she called thosepseudo lies and what that case?
The child is kind of almostgiving an affirmation because
they it's wish fulfillment, theywant to see whatever you're
pointing out to them and they'reused to adults knowing more
than them.
So they're like they a castle.
There must be a castle there.
Yes, I see it, because I wantto be part of what you're seeing
(10:48):
too.
I want to be, and you as theparent, you as the adult, know
more than I do.
So we have to be sometimes becareful of these sort of
acquiescent types of statementsthat we might see as lies.
But maybe the child isn'treally intentionally trying to
fool us in those early ages.
But when you know when theirchild is like purposely, you
(11:08):
know for sure denying somethingthat you know that they know
that they did, then that's morean example of where you see an
intentional lie.
Like you know, did you eat thatcookie that they know they're
not supposed to eat beforedinner?
And they say, no, I didn't eatthat cookie.
That's a much more intentionalexample of intentional lie.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Which takes again a lot more cognitive skills.
So we should sort of be happy,maybe in line with what you just
said.
I, my children now are five,seven and nine, and when they
were a little bit younger Inoticed that some of their
friends, or themselves as well,would come up with some sort of
story.
They would say, oh, I visitedthe river behind the house and
there's absolutely no riverbehind her home.
(11:49):
And they would have like thesestories together.
Is there a part of this?
When they're young, that's justimagination and creativity, and
we see it as you're not tellingthe truth, because I remember
sometimes the parents of some ofthese kids would get really
upset and say we haven't walkedby a river today.
Why are you saying that?
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Yes, and that's we have to understand with very
young children.
They it's part of theirimaginary play, it's part of
their pretend play to come upwith all these things and they
can sometimes confuse it intheir narratives that they're
telling you about the day.
So they can tell you you know,we went to the zoo, we did this,
we did that, and it's kind ofpart of their imaginary play
(12:26):
that they're kind of conflatingand part of what they're doing.
And we need to understand that.
That is a normal part ofchildhood, especially very young
children or preschool children,because their imaginary play is
a big part of their play andit's okay, you know a big part
(12:47):
of their, of their play and itit's it's okay, you know, um,
and if you're concerned about it, you can just say gently okay,
oh, so that was.
You know, if you, uh, that waspart of your pretend play or
that was a good imagination,that was lots of fun, you know.
Just to distinguish for themthat this was not real and this
was real.
But on the other hand, youdon't need to worry about it too
much that they're likeintentionally telling you these
(13:07):
elaborate stories, becausethey're often just doing as part
of their imagery play, and aschildren get older, especially
as they get to grade school,they start to distinguish
between this and this becomesless part of their narrative
that they come to tell you.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Right Part of what you mentioned in your book and
something that I feel is acrossthe board with parenting is it
starts with us and what'shappening in the home, and how
do we model certain things.
And that's what I understood aswell is that we have to think
about what we're modeling aswell in terms of being dishonest
and honest.
Can you explain a little bitmore in terms of?
There was a parent who wrote into me after she found out that
(13:45):
I was going to speak with youand said that she had a very bad
habit of telling white lies andthat she was raised in a home
where her own parents wouldoften tell white lies, and so
she got stuck in that habit, butnow has a very young kid and
she's worried that they're goingto learn the same habits.
How do we start with ourselves?
Do we have to kind of reflecton what our honesty and
(14:06):
dishonesty habits are?
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Yeah, and I think that mother's already caught on
to something that's true, thatwe actually learn from our
parents.
So, as a result, we learnbehaviors like honesty or when
to lie or not to lie, oftenthrough what we've seen our
parents do.
So we have to think as parentsin terms of lying and so many
(14:30):
other behaviors we are modelingto our kids.
So we have to think okay, whatis important to us?
And then I need to make surethat I'm sort of showing that to
my child, because you know wecan, words are great and we
should use our words to explain,and so children can understand.
(14:50):
But if we are then sort ofundermining our words by doing
something different, we're sortof teaching them actually.
Well, this is the kind of thewindow dressing and this is what
we actually do, you know.
So I think, parents, honesty isan important one to think about
.
What we, what each one of us,finds important, because you
(15:13):
know, are you going to teachthem honesty is the best policy,
but then you yourself willoccasionally tell a lie for a
certain reason.
Well, then you have to thinkokay, what is it that you really
believe?
How do you show honesty?
Are there times that you do lieand if so, what do you think
(15:35):
about those times?
Are you comfortable with thefact that you lie in those
situations?
And then are you?
Next question is are youcomfortable for your children to
lie in those types ofsituations?
And are you comfortable thentelling you those lies?
Right, because research showsthat parents who tell lies to
their children their children,and especially not the
(15:55):
occasional lie, but that isfrequent enough that the
children remember it inadulthood, because these are
retrospective studies with sortof grown-up children.
When they have that as afeature of their sort of
relationship with their parents,they are less likely to feel
(16:16):
close to their parents and theyare more likely to lie to their
parents on a regular kind ofbasis.
So you have to think about it.
If you're not comfortable withyour children lying in those
situations, then think about whynot, and then think about
whether you want to demonstratethat behavior and also what is
the message you want to give.
(16:36):
So we need to think about thesequestions for ourselves and
it's easier to think about themin advance, before we get to
that situation, so that we canmake sure that the messages we
give with our children arecongruent with what we believe
and what our behavior is.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
And I think of moments when you do find out
that somebody lied to you, oreven as a child, remembering a
moment where my mother did lieto me and there were good
reasons behind it.
But you do think about like,didn't you trust me or didn't
you want to tell me the truth?
And then you think about thetrust that you have with this
person.
What if something else is a lie?
I've had this conversation withparents because some of us had
(17:16):
to.
You know, our children don'twant us to leave at night.
So if you have a dinner with afriend, I had a friend who just
had to lie every single time andtell her kids that you know
they were going into thebasement or going somewhere that
was in the house, but daddy wasgoing to put you to bed, but in
the end they were leaving thehome to come out for dinner and
we would have this conversationback and forth because they felt
(17:36):
that this was the only way forthem to leave the home.
But I always questioned, likewhat would happen if your kids
did find out that you weren't inthe house that night?
That there's a a trust issuethat gets um, that there's an
impact on that yes, and that'sreally something we have to
think about with our children.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
if we're lying to them, right, it's about the
trust and in fact when peoplelie to us we get upset because
there's been a violation oftrust.
So if you discover your friendhas lied to you, you suddenly
feel a little bit differentlyabout your relationship with
your friend.
If your child why parents oftenI have to counsel parents not
(18:13):
to you know to realize thesituation and keep it within you
know perspective when theirchild first lies to them, even
though it's a little lie, likeyou know, did you eat the cookie
?
Sometimes parents can get veryupset and the reason is it's
like my child is lying to me andthey feel a violation of that
trust.
I should you know, how can Ibelieve that my child would lie
(18:34):
to me?
So we have to remember that wedon't like to be lied to and it
is often considered a violationof trust.
So we need to think about thatwhen we tell lies, because if
children discover that they'rebeing lied to such as you know
mommy conceals, you know goingout and sneaks out of the house
(18:57):
that in the end, when theydiscover it, could do worse
damage than having to moreactively.
So the harder problem is, youknow, the most immediate harder
problem is dealing with the.
How do I get to go out and seemy friends for a night out?
And sometimes lying is an easieroption in the short term, but
(19:20):
the long term it may not be.
You know it means havingconversations with children,
maybe not always when you'rejust about to go out at other
times, but children having tolearn about their parents.
Their parents are also peoplewho have feelings and needs and
that they have to learn that.
(19:40):
It's important that ourchildren learn to have
consideration for us as well asthem, and that also it's
important that for youngchildren who may still not be
able to, they understand thatyou're not abandoning them.
So as long as they feel thatlove and they're they're, they
start to come and they may.
That doesn't mean that a child,you know, won't be upset when
(20:02):
the first time or second time.
But they become to realize that, oh, mommy does go away, she
loves me regardless and shecomes back and she still loves
me and she comes back.
It's the same with a child thatgoes to daycare.
The first couple of times theygo to daycare they're really
upset and you, you know, youhave a loving, strong
relationship with the child.
But there's still they have toget used to that separation
(20:24):
anxiety, right, and it's hard todeal with.
But you have to get through itand teach the child and the
child starts to understand oh,mommy comes back and gets me,
you know, and I'm still lovedand we still have this really
close bond.
But yeah, it can be hard.
I mean it's hard for everyparent to go through that.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
But there's a lot of learning that happens in those
uncomfortable moments orunpleasant emotions for that
child, which is important too.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Yeah, and it's about helping them get through those,
those and helping them deal withit, rather than sort of trying
to avoid it.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
I get that there's a white lie that I think many of
us put on our children, but it'swhen you receive a gift and I
know that this comes up in a lotof conversations as well
because children are honest andthey will let you know if they
don't like something.
But when you're, they're young,I think as parents, you feel
embarrassed that they werehonest about it and you feel bad
(21:20):
for that person right, thatgrandparent or, you know, aunt
or uncle.
Is that a mistake, or are theselittle white lies okay to teach
them?
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Well, that's exactly the thing that a parent has to
ask themselves, like you know,because then children get very
young children will get confusedabout, like you know, is it
okay or not to lie or not.
Older children can start tounderstand the intentions behind
a lie and if someone's tryingto intend to do something that's
good to you know, preservesomeone else's feelings and they
will see those lies.
As you know, preserve someoneelse's feelings and they will
see those lies as being, youknow, not as bad, for instance.
(21:53):
But for younger children theysee things in a very, you know,
black and white kind of way andthey don't necessarily
understand.
But you have to think about youknow what you want to teach
your child, about honesty andabout when it's okay to lie or
not lie, and then make that youknow, make sure your messages to
that is clear, because someparents may teach their children
(22:15):
that you know what to say.
I have a funny story.
A colleague had athree-year-old and they had to
go to visit their grandmotherfor Christmas and it was like an
hour's drive or something.
And they get there and thechild got something that the
child didn't like and theyopened it up and said I don't
like it and they caused a lot ofupset on Christmas day.
(22:37):
So the next year they coachedher on the way, saying you know,
when grandma gives you apresent you have to say you like
it and thank her for it orwhatever.
And she got there, she openedit up and she kind of looked at
it and then looked at her dadand in this big stage whisper
said daddy, what do I do?
I really like it.
That's so good, but we have tothink about like what it is and
(23:03):
then the messages forward and Imean one way to deal with it.
If you really want to teachyour child to be honest and you
don't want to teach them to tellthose to tell, even like a
polite we call I call thosepoliteness lies is you know,
teach them about, you know whatyou can role play with it.
You know and say you know what.
Why would you, what are, teachthem to say a simple thank you,
(23:28):
Thank you for giving them a gift, to show appreciation for
receiving a gift, or there'ssomething about the gift that
they like.
I got a book once from somebodywho I already had the book.
I'd read it and I realized thisperson had really thought about
what to get me and realized I'dreally like this author and
(23:50):
went and got me this book.
And I was really touched by thegift because I realized they'd
really thought about what wouldbe like they just hadn't gotten
something random.
They 'd really thought aboutsomething that I would like and
indeed it was a book I liked.
And I said to them, I just said, but I also knew they didn't
have a lot of money and theydidn't have to get me a gift.
To them, I just said, but Ialso knew they didn't have a lot
(24:11):
of money and they didn't haveto get me a gift.
So it also reflected a bit of asacrifice of them because they
were not, they didn't have a lotof money.
It was a time in their life butthey'd wanted to get me
something to express to themtheir gratitude to me.
It was very touching and so Ididn't tell them oh, I've
already read it.
I just said thank you.
(24:32):
I, um, um, I can't believe you.
You know you've thought of meand that you know you realized
that I would love this author,you know, and I was really
touched by it and the giftreally meant a lot to me, even
though, um, I, uh, I had readthe book.
So the other book I gave awayto a charity shop and I kept
that book because that bookrepresented it.
It was more meaningful for me.
(24:52):
So you have to think of also,like gift giving is one of those
things where there's more thanjust how you feel about the gift
.
There's also the perspective ofthe other gift giver, and so
this can lead to some veryinteresting conversations with
children about more than justthe virtues of honesty, but also
about generosity andthoughtfulness and why.
(25:13):
You know why, thinking aboutthe perspective and feelings of
others and that may lead you totell a polite lie because you
realize the person's reallybeing thoughtful and you don't
want to make them feel upset, orit may lead you to find a way
to speak in a you know what Isay a tactful, kind way.
You know not being blunt inyour honesty like I've got this
(25:37):
book, what a waste.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
And it makes sense and I think those are beautiful
skills to teach our child,because they will have these
moments where they feeldisappointed about something and
we're teaching them that youdon't have to lie about it, but
there's a way to be kind aboutthat moment as well.
So, again, in that momentthere's just so much that
they're learning, rather thangoing to the easy route, trying
to teach them to lie Right.
Right, I get that we're goingto go into the how to teach
(26:08):
honesty, but I just have a fewquestions from parents and I
just want maybe to offer parentsa little bit of guidance.
Like I said at the beginning,everything is in your book and I
recommend that everybody readsthis, but what would you offer
in terms of a quick guide if youdo catch your child in a lie,
and would it be the same for ayoung child versus a teenager?
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Yeah, and I do go.
I expand on this a lot in thebook and I give some examples in
the book if people want to lookat those.
But you know, for as a generalrule, you know, with older
children you may be able to getinto more discussion and
generally you're going to get it.
You can get into more nuanceddiscussion about intentions,
(26:51):
consequences, et cetera, andfeelings.
But in the heat of the moment,with the lie, as a general rule,
with all children, younger orolder, you really want to stick
to what has happened.
So you want to A be calm aboutit.
That's important.
In that heat of the moment, wecan feel, like we just said,
it's a trust violation, so wecan feel upset, we can feel
(27:14):
angry, we can feel frustrated,we can feel all sorts of
emotions.
We need to be able to check ouremotions and it may mean that
you need to give yourself atimeout, so to speak, and just
deal with it in a moment whileyou like, get yourself under
control, because that'simportant, that we remain calm.
And then you want to, like youknow, label the fact that
they've just told you somethingdishonest and also potentially
(27:37):
talk about what the if it'ssomething they've transgressed
about.
You want to talk about that andthen come up with and that's
why you want to haveconversations about honesty at
other times other than when youjust catch them in the lie,
because it's at those othertimes that you can have these
wider conversations.
And for young children thoseconversations may be more simple
(27:59):
but for the older ones you canhave much more longer, more
in-depth type of conversations.
But in that moment you canrefer back to these
conversations you've had and theprinciples and main ideas that
you refer to that withoutgetting into a long lecture.
Because if you get into a longlecture you know it's going to
get lost and certainly yourteenager is going to roll their
eyes at you and the little one'sgoing to get confused because
(28:22):
you're just talking, talking,talking.
So you want to just refer tothose and then get to sort of
the outcome, the consequences ofthe lie and the transgression.
So you know, one thing wesometimes do when children lie
is we just deal with the lie andwe forget to deal with the
transgression.
So if they like lie to youabout a small kid has lied to
(28:43):
you about drawing on the wall,we just get all upset that they
lied to us.
But we also have to deal withthe fact that they need to learn
you do not draw on the wall.
And what are the consequencesof doing that?
Well, now you have to helpmommy.
You have to go clean it up,right?
So we we need to deal with bothof us the same, like if a
teenager lies to you about youknow being a curfew time and we
(29:11):
get all upset that they're lyingto us and we get all broiled in
that that, oh, wait, a minute,about the curfew breakage.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
And you have to also deal with that, right?
Yeah, that's such good adviceand I know that parents
listening are saying the calmpart, that first step to what
you just said, can be so hard,because it's it's also the fact
that you feel like I parentedyou and I taught you not to lie
and to be honest.
And how could you do this?
Whether they're young or older,I just mine are still young,
(29:35):
but I know that in those momentssometimes it's so hard to stay
calm because you just see it asa violation of so many things
and you're disappointed in themand yourself.
What did you do wrong?
And you start to questioneverything.
One thing that was interestingfrom your book is I realized
that we focus a lot on the lies,even by reading, and I realized
(29:55):
that within our home we focus alot on talking about not lying,
but that we need to switch theconversation into what honesty
looks like and why it'simportant.
One of the examples that stoodout to me was when you spoke
about the books or the storieswe talk about, and we've told
all our three kids a story aboutthe boy who cried wolf, and
that's part of what I did, whatI heard when I was young, and
(30:21):
Pinocchio and all of that.
But now I realize, because youmentioned a book I forget the
name of it or a story that'sfocused on the honesty piece.
So do you think that's wherethere's lots of room for change
in homes, where we should behaving or switching that
conversation?
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Yeah, and I think we often focus about lying is bad,
and that's okay.
I think it's.
We need to tell children, youknow lying is bad, but we also
need to talk about what ishonesty.
What is truth telling?
What does it look like?
How is one honest?
So, for instance, in ourresearch we found that actually
the story.
So we had a story about GeorgeWashington who cuts down his
(30:52):
cherry tree when he's a childand then he later gets asked
about it by his dad and he endsup confessing and his father is
not happy about the cherry treebeing cut down but he's proud
that his son told the truth.
And that story we found and wetold that to American children,
but we also told it to childrenwho weren't American, canadians,
who had never heard that story,and we found that it was still
(31:16):
powerful for both sets ofchildren.
Because the reason being wasthat and we've now tested it
with like a non-GeorgeWashington story where we change
the characters, it isn't GeorgeWashington, but it's the same
principles, and the principlesare the character's done
something wrong, a transgression.
They are asked about it andthey choose to tell the truth
(31:38):
about it and then there's apositive reaction to that.
The world doesn't end when theytell the truth, because that's
what children fear right.
They often fear the world isgoing to come to an end.
Maybe if I lie I'll avoid theworld coming to the end.
Mommy might not get angry andupset with me.
So I'll go for broke and I'lllie about it and maybe I'll
(32:00):
escape all of that.
But they also fear that if theyget caught in it like the
world's going to come to the end, whereas telling the truth
about a transgression seemsreally hard, right, because oh,
mommy's going to be really angrywith me.
But when they see these storieswhere they see the character
tell the truth, one, itdemonstrates to them how does
(32:21):
one tell the truth about one'stransgression.
That's a hard thing to do,right, you have to be brave and
you have to say none of us wantto tell the truth, right, you
have to be brave and you have to, like, say none of us want to
tell the truth, but we've donesomething wrong, right.
And so it demonstrates it, itmodels it for them.
But it also shows them that,you know, maybe that is valued,
right.
The, the, the parent in thestory, is glad that they told
(32:44):
the truth, that they are.
So that's also to see somepositive outcome, that the world
doesn't end when you actuallytell the truth.
And there are other storieslike that too, where it shows
how to be honest and that thathonesty is valued and has some
positive consequence to it,because our fears are often.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
The reason we lie is often because we fear what the
consequences are if we tell thetruth, even as adults right,
sometimes we lie to somebodybecause we don't want to hurt
their feelings or we don't want,we don't get in trouble like a
child will, but there will besome sort of consequence,
whether it's at work or with afriend or a family member.
So it's, it's kind of similar.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
It is kind of similar and, as a result, though, as
parents, we have to think aboutthat, you know.
That means that what thatimplication is and I explain
this more in the book and I givesome examples but it means also
that you need to recognizehonesty when your child is it?
So if your child's drawn on thewall and they tell you
(33:42):
truthfully it was them that drewon the wall, before you react
to them drawing on the wall andgetting all upset, take a moment
to say I'm glad you told me thetruth.
I really appreciate that.
You told me that you'd givethem some credit and some
recognition for when they arehonest, even sometimes if
they're telling you somethingyou don't want to hear.
(34:03):
So I realized, I realized,thinking about this a lot, I
realized I wanted to know when Ibombed on cooking or baking,
because I was like I don't wantto have to like constantly make
the thing that they don't likeanymore.
So I was like I don't care whatit is, just give me the truth,
give me the truth.
And then I realized they werebeing polite and they were like
(34:24):
well, it's not the worst and I'mlike okay, on a scale of one to
10, what it is on a scale ofone to ten what it is.
Because I thought I actually,even though it's going to hurt
me, I want to know the truth, toknow I need to show.
So I sort of set it up, I'mokay, and so even then they'd be
polite.
So finally I've learned.
The question is, should I makeit again?
And usually that's when Ithey're like there's other stuff
(34:48):
you could make.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Okay, I won't make that again but think I you know
when I think of that as aquality, even now between my
friends, the ones that arehonest with me, polite and
honest, but tell me the truth,those are the ones that I have a
better or closer relationshipwith, because I know that if I'm
doing something that'scompletely out of norm, that
they're going to say Cindy, comeback to this Like that's not
(35:16):
you, or I don't like it when yousay this, or you know.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
No, that's sure it's not really for you.
I know that they'll be honest,so it's such a good quality.
We actually really value thatin people.
But you said something reallyimportant, and that's what we
have to teach our children ishow to speak in a kind but
truthful way Right, Because I doknow people that are truthful
but don't have the kind aspectno, no, yeah, that we don't, we
don't, we can't always handlethat.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
No, so I guess my next question was is about like
how to teach honesty.
But from what you've beensaying in the past few minutes,
it's really about how we'rehighlighting moments of honesty
in ourselves, in our children,and highlighting the importance
of honesty through stories foryoung kids or moments, as well,
with older kids.
Yeah, that's what I'munderstanding.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Yeah, you have to have conversations and it's not
going to be one conversation,it's going to be conversations.
But if honesty is somethingimportant to you, it's going to
come up time and time again.
I mean, you're going to be outand you're going to notice, like
you know, someone is honest atthe.
You know they're paying forsomething and they get extra
change and they honestly give itback.
(36:16):
Comment upon that to your child.
Notice, we notice a lot of thelies and the negative things in
the world that happen in thenews and everything around us,
but also reflect upon those goodthings when you see them and
sort of just narrate them to thechild.
Oh look, isn't that personbeing kind, or isn't that?
Look how that person was honest.
Because, so that they start tosee that the world around them
(36:39):
also people are exhibiting thesepositive behaviors, these
virtues that we're teaching themand orient to them.
And also you're going to talkto them about it.
Sometimes they're going to betruthful, Sometimes they're
going to lie, Sometimes you'regoing to have lies or truth.
You know, in the familysituation you can talk about
these, but also when you're notin those situations, having
(37:01):
conversations about why is thisimportant?
Oh, somebody in the news waslying.
You know why.
Why are?
Why are people upset about that?
What?
What is that implication,especially as children get older
?
You can have a quite in-depthconversations.
When children are little,you're going to have much more
simple conversations, butstories are a really great way
to start having thoseconversations with the young
(37:23):
children before I go to the lastquestion, there was one
question that came up from aparent and I thought that was
kind of interesting.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
So if, if your child lies to you, and I think their
child's about eight years old,or seven or eight, do you pursue
a confession?
So if they're not, if you knowthat they've done something and
they just don't want to say itand again it's probably with
that age, it's probably becausethey don't want to get in
trouble Do you just keep pushingfor that confession from them?
Speaker 2 (37:49):
Well, it depends on the situation.
One thing I do say and I giveexamples in the book don't set
them up to lie.
So if you take the example ofthe kids scribbling on the wall,
if you know that they'vescribbled on the wall because
you walked in the room and yousaw the hand up and it went down
, but you saw it and you knowthat they did it, don't say did
(38:10):
you scribble on the wall?
You know that already.
Just deal with the scribblingon the wall.
Why give yourself doubletrouble by now inviting them to
potentially lie to you and thenyou have to deal with the
scribbling on the wall and thelie.
So just say you're scribblingon the wall and then deal with
that.
So we have to be careful not toset kids up and then we actually
create a situation that we thenhave to deal with.
(38:32):
That makes it harder.
So we have to be careful.
If you actually know what theydid like, if that child's late
on curfew, you know what timedid you get in last night.
You know perfectly well whattime they got in, you heard them
, you were paying attention, youwere awake.
Why invite them to lie and dealwith that?
So I would be careful aboutcreating situations.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
We sometimes do that, I think we do it as like a test
right.
We want to see will my child behonest with me in this moment?
But then in the end, from whatI'm understanding is there's no
point.
You're just creating a morecomplicated situation.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
You're creating a more complex situation and
potentially getting reallyexpanding the scope of what you
have to deal with and you geteven more upset.
You're already upset becauseyour child didn't do the curfew
or your child scribbled on thewall.
Just deal with that.
The other one, in a way, isalmost entrapment.
You can think of it right, youknow what actually happened
(39:26):
there, so you don't need to testthem on that.
Just deal with what you have todeal with.
So I think you have to becareful about pursuing them for
the confession.
I would say that you know they achild might double down
sometimes on that.
If you are really starting tointerrogate them and that you
(39:49):
have to think about you have todeal with what the problem is
and deal with that.
And you also have to deal withanything that is where they're
not safe.
You know, if you're dealingwith anything where there's
potential harm harm to the child, harm to others you need to
deal with that immediately andthat's your greatest concern.
But you also have to thinkabout your relationship with
your child and maintaining apositive, strong relationship
(40:11):
and maintaining a positive,strong relationship and it could
be that if you get into asituation which is interrogative
and negative.
You might get into a negativespiral and it might be.
You know, just take a break onthat.
It may not really suit yourlong-term goals in terms of
building up a strongrelationship with your child
where you're actually developing, you know, a relationship where
(40:33):
there's more open communicationwith them.
So I would be careful about ifyou find that they're not
getting into an interrogationwith them.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
Right.
I think that's really goodadvice.
I think we do get stucksometimes in that and I feel
that, thinking back again to mychildhood, when you're stuck in
that cycle of interrogation, Ifeel like you lie because you
just want to get out of it.
You're like, yep, yeah, sure Idid that or I didn't.
I just remember those momentsof being interrogated as a child
sometimes and it's difficult,it's, it's consuming.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
Yes, exactly, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:04):
I get that.
One person reached out and saidthat they work with children
who have some level of traumaand some challenges and they
were curious to know when is ita red flag or when is it a
warning sign?
When is lying considered a redflag for something?
Would you have advice tosomebody who's listening saying
(41:25):
well, you know, my child hasbeen lying quite a bit lately?
And just before we answer that,there's a part of your book as
well where you talk about theparenting style I think that's
something we don't think aboutvery often and how that
parenting style can increase thelikelihood of a child lying,
from what I understood.
So maybe we can quickly touchon that.
(41:47):
But what I really want to getinto is when is this a sign of
something else the lying aspect,but what I really want to get
into is when is this a sign ofsomething else?
Speaker 2 (41:55):
the lying aspect.
Well, I think this brings upthree important things to
consider.
One thing that I haven't spokenof yet and yet it's a whole
chapter in my book, and then I'mconstantly referring back to it
and a really key, importantpart in terms of all of what we
talked about is the motivation.
What is the motivation for thechildren to lie?
Is the motivation?
What is the motivation for thechildren to lie?
(42:16):
Sometimes their motivation isbecause they're scared of
something, like one example Igive in the book where child was
lying about eating lunch.
They told their mom they wereeating their lunch and the mom
discovered they weren't havingany lunch because the teacher
reported it that the kid wastired or whatever.
Kid wasn't eating the lunch.
And upon further investigation,the child was being bullied and
(42:37):
their lunch was being takenfrom them.
But they were lying about itbecause they felt shame and they
were scared about repercussionsof the bully and things like
that.
So that's a case where there'sharm being done to the child but
the child's concealing that outof fear.
There are other motivations thatmay be relevant to how you deal
with the lie.
So you really do need to lookat what's behind the lie.
(42:59):
What's the motivated?
How is the child perceivingwhat's happening?
And this is also relevant inchildren who have suffered
trauma.
They have suffered significanttrauma in their lives.
One of the reasons that wesometimes conceal information or
lie is because we're scared outof fear or self-protection.
(43:20):
So in these cases, if childrenwho are trauma-informed, if
we're dealing with them, we needto think about what is the
motivation, what has theirprevious experience told them
about how the world reacts tothem or reacts to certain things
, why they may be telling lies,because that may help us deal
with that lie in a better way.
(43:42):
That gets at the root cause ofwhy they're lying.
And this also gets to the pointthat you were making about
parenting styles.
When us as parents, aseducators or anyone in a
caregiving role with a child ora youth, we have to think about
how we interact in a way that'svery warm and supportive, but
also firm.
There are certain rules.
(44:03):
We expect children to abide bythe rules, but we communicate
those rules in a very clear wayto them and we have a warm
relationship where we reallywork on the bond in that
relationship.
This has longer term impact onchildren.
It doesn't mean that childrenwon't tell necessarily a lie or
(44:23):
fib occasionally, but in thelonger term it has better
outcomes in terms of they'remore likely to feel that sense
of trust with you and thatyou'll nurture that relationship
, and that they're more likelyto be open and tell you.
And this becomes really critical.
We laugh about the child eatingthe cookie that they're not
(44:44):
supposed to eat or scribbling onthe walls, but there are times
where you really want your childto come and tell you because
something's happening that youneed to know about, that's
putting the child in potentialharm's way or someone's hurting
the child, or they're engagingin something that's really of
concern or they're with peersthat are engaging in risky
(45:05):
business and you want them tofeel that they can come to you
and that they can tell you.
Them to feel that they can cometo you and that they can tell
you.
And you want to have arelationship where they feel
they can tell you stuff, evenstuff they know that's not going
to make you happy and you mightbe upset with, but they know
that you'll be able to listenand hear them and hear their
fears and how they feel and thatyou will create space where you
(45:29):
will listen to them, and that'simportant for them to know,
because then they're more likelyto tell you the stuff that you
really do want to know.
Speaker 1 (45:36):
That's really crucial for you to know, and I think
what we need to highlight is youmentioned limits and boundaries
still exist, because I know alot of parents struggle with
that these days in terms of likesetting those limits and those
boundaries but you're stillputting them, you're still
having these in your home, butyou're showing them that worth,
that warmth piece, like you said, and that's truly key to to
(45:59):
parenting.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
Yeah, they have to feel that Um so what?
What um can lead to more lyingis when we're very punitive.
So, as research has shown thatin environments that are very
punitive, where you're going toget in, you get into a lot of
trouble.
Even for minor offenses it canbe harsh punitive kind of
environments, it actuallypromotes lying because in those
(46:22):
environments lying is actuallyan adaptive sort of strategy to
manage survival in thoseenvironments.
So you lie because you're goingto get into a lot of trouble,
no matter what you lie to tryand mitigate those negative
impact on you.
But in environments which arewarm and supportive, lying
(46:45):
becomes actually more adetractor of that relationship.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
Thank you for everything that you shared today
.
I don't know if there'sanything else you'd like to add
to this, but I think we coveredin little, bite-sized pieces
everything that you had in yourbook, and I know there's a lot
more there, so, once again, thelink is in the show notes.
Is there anything else, awebsite or something you'd like
to share with everyone, to reachout to you or learn more from
you?
Speaker 2 (47:11):
Yeah well, just check out the book.
They can get it on Amazon or atthe bookstore.
Canada and the US Yep in Canadaand the US, and there's lots of
examples and examples of how tohave conversations, examples
how to deal with certain wedidn't talk about it, but also
secret keeping and tattling arealso things that we have to deal
(47:35):
with as parents and how we dealwith that, and also information
about what to do if you feelthat your child's lying is
problematic.
You know to seek help on that.
Speaker 1 (47:46):
Is there just a quick info for that?
When should a parent maybespeak to?
Who?
Would you speak to your doctorabout it?
Reach out to a therapist.
Speaker 2 (47:55):
Yeah, so you can go to a pediatrician or a therapist
or ask at your school theschool psychologist or counselor
for referral, and you should doit whenever you see that it's a
persistent behavior that haslasted for a while, that is
affecting the relationshipeither your relationship with
(48:15):
them or other relationships, oris related to other sort of
negative behaviors, and it needsto be like for a period of time
, like six months or more a year, that you've seen that.
Or if a parent is really havingstruggling dealing with this
problem, then they should getadvice and get help, because
(48:35):
there's lots of help out there.
Speaker 1 (48:37):
Yeah, and it's OK to ask for help too and support.
I think that's important forparents to know.
Thank you again.
Everything that we mentioned,all the links, will be in the
show notes.
The book and the child's bookswill put some links in the show
notes as well.
Thank you, Victoria.
I really appreciated ourconversation.
Speaker 2 (48:58):
Oh, thank you.
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