Cut The Tie Podcast with Wilson Zehr
What does real balance look like for an entrepreneur—and how do you design a business that supports it? In this episode of Cut The Tie, Thomas Helfrich sits down with Wilson Zehr, professor, entrepreneur, and CEO of Zairmail, a company that has been reinventing direct mail for more than 20 years. From navigating massive shifts in the printing industry to building software that gives an old medium new life, Wilson shares how balance, innovation, and persistence fuel his entrepreneurial journey.
About Wilson Zehr
Wilson Zehr is the CEO of Zairmail (a division of Cendix), a B2B SaaS company that automates direct mail programs for organizations across the world. With decades of experience as a technology executive, entrepreneur, and professor, Wilson has built, acquired, and sold companies, while also teaching marketing, entrepreneurship, finance, and business strategy at the university level. A lifelong innovator, he helped pioneer “hybrid mail”—digital files transformed into physical mail delivered to homes and businesses. Passionate about entrepreneurship and balance, Wilson combines his technical expertise with a love of problem-solving, mentoring, and building lasting businesses.
In this episode, Thomas and Wilson discuss:
- Redefining work-life balance
Why balance isn’t a perfect 50/50 split, but something you consciously design as an entrepreneur. - Cutting ties with corporate constraints
Wilson reflects on leaving behind rigid “8-to-7” corporate schedules to build a business on his own terms. - Reinventing direct mail in a digital age
How Zairmail pioneered hybrid mail and gave physical mail new relevance in the era of digital marketing. - The habits that create luck
How consistent daily actions—networking, execution, and showing up—lay the groundwork for “opportunities.” - AI and innovation in print
Wilson’s perspective on how AI serves as a tool, but why creativity and trial-and-error remain uniquely human.
Key Takeaways:
- Balance isn’t about 50/50
True work-life balance means designing a business and lifestyle that actually fit together. - Corporate rules don’t define success
Walking away from rigid schedules opened space for entrepreneurship and freedom. - Old industries can reinvent themselves
With hybrid mail, even “sleepy” products like print can gain new life in a digital-first world. - Luck is built, not found
Opportunities come to those who consistently put themselves in position for them.
Connect with Wilson Zehr:
💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/wilsonzehr/
🌐 Website: http://www.zairmail.com
📧 Email: wilson@zairmail.com
Connect with Thomas Helfrich:
📣 Twitter: https://twitter.com/thelfrich
📘 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/cutthetie/
💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thomashelfrich/
🌐 Website: http://www.cutthetie.com
📧 Email: t@instantlyrelevant.com
🚀 http://instantlyrelevant.com
Serious about LinkedIn Lead Generation? Stop Guessing what to do on LinkedIn and ignite revenue from relevance with Instantly Relevant Lead System
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Welcome to the Cut the Tie Podcast.
Hello.
I'm your host, Thomas Helfrick,and I'm on a mission to help you
cut that tie.
Metaphorically to anything cutholding you back from your
success.
Please define your own successfirst.
Otherwise, you're chasingsomeone else's dream.
Today, Mr.
A doctor.
Is it doctor?
Do I say doctor?
Wilson?
Zare?
Yes.
Doctor.
(00:20):
Doctor.
SPEAKER_00 (00:21):
And doctor.
More of a professor than amedical doctor, but Yeah, you
still get the doctor.
SPEAKER_01 (00:28):
It's like a bottle of wine, aging and education.
At some point, you get a doctor,though.
Why don't you go take a moment,introduce yourself, where you're
from, what you do?
SPEAKER_00 (00:37):
My name's Wilson Zare.
I'm located here in Portland,Oregon.
We're on a company called XareMail.
And it's like airmail with a Zon the front.
We automate direct mailprograms.
So upload a document, upload alist, see a preview of what
you're going to be produced,push the button, you're in the
mail tomorrow and the next dayat a fraction of the cost.
And honestly, we're the actualformal Xare Mail is a brand
(00:58):
name.
So the formal company is calledSendex.
We're a software company.
We'd have a B2B software as aservice software company.
We've been in business for 20plus years now.
SPEAKER_01 (01:09):
Is this one of the offerings then?
Basically, is the is the piece,or is that in the offering?
SPEAKER_00 (01:14):
Yeah.
So Sendex, software company, andwe have we, you know, we do some
cult consulting work as well.
And we have servers andapplications.
And the type of application thatwe have spent the last two
decades developing is somethingcalled Web2Print.
So we automate the ordering ofprint products.
But over that course of time, weactually invented a product
(01:37):
called hybrid mail working withthe U.S.
Postal Service long ago.
So hybrid mail is mail thatturns starts out digitally, you
know, in digital format, andthen we turn it into actual
physical mail that getsdelivered to homes and
businesses across America,honestly, anywhere in the world,
if you put the right code stampon it.
SPEAKER_01 (01:57):
Fair enough.
In your industry, uh, it there'sless competitors, right?
I was I did unknowingly, youwere going into the next show.
I was like, hey, if you investall your money in print and
everything goes digital, don'tbe pissed it all went digital,
right?
Uh how have you guys I I gottaask, how you guys survived, how
are you navigating the just amassive change, or is it coming
back?
(02:17):
People like, I want physicalthings.
SPEAKER_00 (02:19):
Yeah, no, that's a that's a great question.
I mean, uh, the printingindustry, not just the mailing
industry, but the printingindustry has been consolidating
for the last 20 years.
Uh, you know, if you look atPortland, I I bet there's 30%
less printers there was thanprinting companies than.
SPEAKER_01 (02:34):
Oh, it's even a bit higher, honestly.
I thought it would have like atwo main ones that you had the
capital to survive it.
SPEAKER_00 (02:39):
Yeah, I I don't think it's that small yet,
because people are still doingboxes and posters and packaging
and lots of different things.
SPEAKER_01 (02:46):
That's good to know.
So boxing and let's say postersare uh conference post bigger
things, right?
Um, that's still consideredprint.
I didn't think boxes is part ofthat, because definitely boxes
is well, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (02:57):
No, so so that you know, posters is are something
they call large format.
It's this particular kind ofprint.
Um boxes are interesting.
One we did a project once for acompany that does um the the
they build machines that allowyou to create the inner
packaging for a box.
(03:18):
It turns out a lot of boxes aretwo layers.
There's the cardboard that goesinside, or that thin brown
layer, and then there's a a thinlayer of paper with the artwork
that goes over the top, andthose are both adhered together,
and and that that's used tocreate boxes.
But I mean, if you what I mean,it doesn't take much to go in
the supermarket and look aroundand see all the printed material
(03:39):
everywhere.
I mean, that printing is notgoing away and has not gone
away.
Now, with that said, a lot ofmanufacturing has gone other
places, and you know, it doesn'talways make make sense to print
a box here and ship it to Chinato put a product in it.
So we see that industry movingin some form.
There's it's um, you know, it'salso not immune to lower price
(04:04):
labor, and it is capitalintensive.
Um, so it's a huge, hugelycompetitive industry.
When we got into the businesslong ago, one of our main
competitors was a company calledthe e-Letter.
They were funded by HummerWinblad.
And um, I think they were at theheight of the dot-com era, they
were burning through about$20million a quarter.
(04:25):
And one of the reasons forburning through that money was
that they decided they weregoing to be a printing company
and they bought all theequipment and warehousing and
hired all the people.
And it just wasn't sustainable.
I mean, but at the beginning, wecorrectly identified, I think,
the the idea that there's plentyof capacity out there.
Um, we just need to find a wayto put it to work so we can use
(04:48):
that excess capacity.
The same way, you know, Uberharnesses the excess capacity of
the car in your driveway forpeople who want to give rides.
Um, so we developed a softwarecompany and we handle the front
end of the process.
When it comes to fulfillment,we'll do print and mail
fulfillment through a network ofproduction partners, a
nationwide network of productionpartners.
(05:09):
We route the mail electronicallyto a place where it needs to go
and where we print it and mailit.
Um it's better for theenvironment and it also moves a
lot faster, it's a lot moreefficient.
We can track it in to end andand let people know what's going
on.
So is uh we've taken a sleepyold product and giving it a new
life and more new relevance inthis digital age.
SPEAKER_01 (05:31):
Yeah, I well, let me ask you this.
So I think that's interestingbecause that solves a problem
for for like someone like me.
Let's say like I think I madethe thing of like, hey, I want
to build a power washingbusiness.
Also I can go to you and say,let's go see if anybody cares.
Do a test run.
You could put it in mailboxes ina certain zip code, and you find
the local, all the things thatfulfill that capacity gap.
(05:53):
Hey, do you you you broker iteffectively?
Correct?
SPEAKER_00 (05:57):
Yeah, yeah, and you could do a mail for a test like
that.
You could you could do a testonline or something, depending
on on what kind of audience youwere getting at.
The thing about all of theseadvertising meetings is that
they're tools.
And as a marketer, as aprofessional marketer, um that's
the way I kind of look at them.
(06:18):
I started out my career as amechanic, an auto mechanic years
ago.
And at that time, they hadsomething called the flat rate
manual.
So they'd assign you a car,they'd say RR repair and replace
transmission, and they give you2.5 hours for it.
And if you could do it in onehour, then you did really well.
And if you took you four hours,then you, you know, it was a bad
day.
(06:39):
And so it turned out that havingthe right tools was really
important.
And the same is true formarketing.
I mean, direct mail does somethings or the mail does some
things that other tools don'tdo, and you need to know where
it's appropriate to use andwhere you should use something
else.
If we think about how we'remarketing our own business, I
mean, we use AdWords and we useemail just like everybody else.
(07:00):
I mean, we in and we use it inthe places that make sense, but
we also use mail, direct mail,and we do it for for our
clients.
And I can give you lots ofexamples of uh how that works.
SPEAKER_01 (07:11):
Well, let me start with how do you just personally
define success right now?
SPEAKER_00 (07:15):
How do I define success?
That's a great question.
Um, then I'm not sure.
I think it may depend on theday.
Um for me, I mean, success isnot all about work or
professional endeavors.
I mean, I do having a healthy,happy family that loves and
(07:37):
supports each other is isprobably top of the list.
Um, I am a lifelong entrepreneurand and technology executive.
So I like and an engineer bytraining.
So I I love building things,software things, and solving
problems and working withcustomers.
I mean, unlike uh a lot of theother folks in our in our
(07:58):
segment.
I mean, if you look at ourwebsite, that toll-free number
is right there.
It's big and bold, right in themiddle of the site.
We want to talk to people, youknow, we want to hear about your
problems.
We want to talk to you about howwe can solve them.
And uh have we run out of wenever run out of time.
If we thought we were runningout of time, we just hire more
people to answer the phone.
SPEAKER_01 (08:20):
So having having that kind of like success for
family around those pieces, oneof the questions I always ask is
is just follow.
Just, you know, you talk aboutyour journey a little bit, but
what's been one of the biggestlike you know metaphoric ties
you've had to cut to achievethat success?
SPEAKER_00 (08:35):
Hmm.
I don't know.
I mean, once again, greatquestion, but it it it's
interesting to me becauseforever people have talking
about talked about a work-lifebalance, which I which I think
is very important.
I mean, uh I'm I have uh I'vebeen a competitive swimmer my
whole life, and I swim a lot.
And I we live in uh we'refortunate enough to live in a
(08:56):
very beautiful part of thecountry.
I have a another place in theColumbia River Gorge, which is
National Snake Area, beautifulspot, lots of places to hike and
swim and do stuff.
So we'd like to be able to geton and do that.
Um, but somehow in the in hiswork-life balance model, it's
it's implied that you spend 50%of your day doing fun stuff and
(09:18):
50% of well, I mean, if you'redoing what you like, I guess
it's all fun stuff, but 50% ofyour day doing professional
stuff, 50% of your day doingother lifestyle things.
And it seems like it doesn'treally work that way.
You know, you'll have two weekswhere you're just crunching it
out, working on professionalstuff, trying to hit deadlines,
trying to get stuff delivered,and then maybe spend uh you
(09:39):
know, you know, uh another largepiece of time just you know
trying to decompress and work,you know, spend time with family
and friends and things of thatnature.
So being able to to balance thatand balance it in a way that
makes sense, um, so that you'renot just completely owned by the
business.
Um that can still be successful.
(10:02):
Uh it seems to be important.
SPEAKER_01 (10:03):
Yeah.
I mean, that is that the so fromthe metaphoric sense of the
show, right?
Cut the tie.
Uh, is it's it was you learningwhat balance actually was.
Like, I don't think it's ever50-50.
A third of it's sleeping ifyou're you're lucky.
Um, I didn't count that.
Like, can you make do on thedays it can you decompress long
enough when you know you couldto take advantage of the space
(10:24):
that you've created foryourself?
Like that is a hard thing to getused to doing is allowing
yourself to take your foot offthe gas for a couple of days or
for a day or something likethat, and enjoy and be present
in the moment around you.
SPEAKER_00 (10:36):
It is.
It's hard.
But then again, as anentrepreneur, assuming that we
get it right, I mean, we can wedesign a business around our
lifestyle or uh around what wewant to do.
Right.
I mean, if I'm working at uh aFortune 500 company, I have to
be there at whatever time, eighteight o'clock in the morning.
SPEAKER_01 (10:57):
And arbitrary uh industrial time like eight to
five, like why like in noon andseven as well.
SPEAKER_00 (11:07):
Well, I think I've worked at those kind of
companies.
I mean, I I remember working atuh a very successful computer
company where it was responsiblefor a very large revenue
generating product.
And I mean, you were expected tobe there every day between it,
wasn't eight to five, it wasmore like eight to seven, and
most of the day was meetings,which means once you got
finished with your day, you hadto figure out how to actually do
(11:28):
work, you know.
So you just get went frommeeting to meeting, gathering a
list of the stuff that you hadto do, and then you had to
spend, you know, after hourstime trying to get it done.
Um and that doesn't lend itselfvery well to work life balance,
that's for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (11:44):
No balance on that for sure, because you're just
like by the time you get home,we're like, I don't want to do
anything.
Um if you go back in timethough, in any part of your
timeline, go back, what wouldyou do differently?
SPEAKER_00 (11:59):
And that's a great question, too.
And I mean uh you got lots ofgreat questions.
We're getting deeper.
We're gonna keep um Yeah, I I'mnot sure really.
I mean, I I I'm not sure that Iwould I would change anything
exactly.
I mean, I mean, there have been,you know, I career-wise, there
(12:20):
have been ups and downs.
You know, I've built lots, youknow, successful companies and
I've had some that were lesssuccessful.
I've acquired companies and I'vesold companies.
I've taken advantage ofopportunities and I've missed
opportunities.
Um, but I would say from everyone of those circumstances,
whether it's up or down, I'velearned stuff that allowed me to
(12:42):
move forward and and dosomething else I wanted to do.
I have this model I worked on.
I I well, you mentioned I have aPhD.
I also teach at the universityenvironment, you know, when I'm
not doing startups.
Uh, and I've done that for a lotof years.
I usually teach marketing,entrepreneurship, finance, and
business strategy, not computerscience, interestingly enough.
(13:04):
But one of the models that wework on is around strategic
planning.
And so you say, you know, whatwhat's our strategic plan for
the coming year?
And that's a function of, youknow, there's one side of it is
what is the environment you'reworking in?
So what kind of opportunitiesyou're presenting.
Another piece of it is, what aremy um core capabilities, right?
(13:25):
What resources do I have to workwith?
What what could I do?
Being able to match those two.
But you know, the you know,forecasting future is not an you
know, uh I would say not anexact science, right?
Things challenge.
And so we have to be fuzzy.
I mean, how far out do you plan?
Five years?
(13:46):
Maybe that's too far for mostpeople.
Two weeks, I'm that's gonna bealmost exact, but does that
help?
I I don't know.
But I do know that anywherealong that timeline, the what I
can do today is a function ofwhat I've done in the past, what
I've planned for, what I'vedone, what I know, what I have
the resources for.
So the stuff I want to do today,I've really had to start putting
(14:10):
in place, you know, long ago,you know, maybe a month ago,
maybe six months ago.
And the same goes with lifeexperiences, right?
I mean, the the the place I amtoday and the choices I make
today are a function ofeverything I've learned in the
past.
And so, yeah, so I could havetaken away some of these
(14:31):
experiences and maybe avoidedsome pain or maybe you know,
some angst.
But in doing that, I would youknow decrease my options for the
future.
I would have less options andless insight and to um guide me
forward.
SPEAKER_01 (14:46):
Yeah, I mean that that's a great answer because
it's like it, you know, thatstuff's happening for you and
not to you, and if you take itthat way.
But I do like I wouldn't callthat something out.
You said the things you're doingtoday, the habits you form, the
things you do, will determinewhat's gonna happen or likely
could happen tomorrow.
So did you go to that networkingevent?
Did you send the email?
Did you get your work done?
Like all those little thingsstack up to present the next
(15:08):
thing.
And if you don't take any actionor do anything that's positive
or do things that are less, thenthen the next step coming is
gonna be triggered around yourown action.
And I always find thatinteresting when people are
like, oh, I never I'm not lucky.
I'm like, oh did you createluck?
I'm like, did you get it outthere and look for what you
needed to go do?
So I I I like that you have toexecute daily to figure out a
(15:29):
year or two weeks, whatever, togo in the direction where else
right.
SPEAKER_00 (15:33):
I mean, I mean, it's I mean, opportunities do per
present themselves.
You know, there's a case forbeing opportunistic.
You have to recognize theopportunities, but you also have
to put yourself in the rightplace to have those
opportunities available.
unknown (15:48):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (15:49):
Exactly.
Not everybody can do that.
You know, that's but in and itoften, you know, what people see
say is see as good luck is a lotof hard work.
SPEAKER_01 (15:59):
Now, if there's a question today I should have
asked you, I didn't.
What would that question havebeen?
SPEAKER_00 (16:05):
You know, to be honest, I'm not sure what your
listeners would want to hearmost about.
I mean, if uh we can talk about,you know, it seems like
everything's AI today.
We can talk about how importantthat is and what that really
looks like.
I can opinion around that.
Sure.
SPEAKER_01 (16:19):
Actually, when it comes to printing, how much how
much is AI impacting your world?
SPEAKER_00 (16:28):
AI has impact.
I mean, everything, everybodywants to have an AI story these
days.
So there's some impact.
I'm not sure if I'm putting inkon paper, um then um I'm not
sure how much it impacts that.
It may impact knowledge, youknow.
If I want to, if I want toproduce a certain kind of
(16:49):
product, I may be able to learnhow to do that quicker.
I may be able to find additionalresources or additional
shortcuts and things.
I it's it's interesting.
I I I will, you know, step intothis argument a little bit
because I I've been doingcomputer science a very long
time.
And even back when I was inschool, people talked about AI,
(17:10):
you know, and and what thatmeant.
You know, it was more like asentient creating a sentient
being rather than, you know, uhan executive assistant.
Um and you know, we talk aboutat that time, they talk about
how the space odyssey, right?
How how the computer or morerecently irobot, you know, with
Will Smith, you know, creatingthese thinking, reasoning
(17:33):
beings.
The AI we we have today seems tobe, it seems to revolve around
more efficient ways of findingdata and or using data, and that
um, which is not a bad thing.
It's a good thing.
I completed a couple of yearsago, I I went through, I
completed a data analyticsprogram at Harvard University
(17:54):
right at the beginning of this,you know, of this uh current AI
push.
And it was um looking at largelanguage models and you know,
letting the data bubble out, uhbubble up and how do we use it.
And it's incredibly powerful,but once again, it is it's
mostly just a tool.
(18:15):
It's powerful in the hands of aof a person or a set of people,
you know, a team, and it'spowerful for doing a certain set
of tasks.
But if you think about a petrant here, I mean, if you think
about innovation and creativity,which is the area where I got my
PhD.
And it relates back to theconversation we had earlier,
(18:38):
too.
Um with something like AI, wewould tend to go back and look
at all the good ideas thatpeople had and try to see if
there's a common theme and waysthat we can use that to create
new good ideas.
But if I think about good ideasand innovation, a lot of them
are the product of bad ideas,not good ideas, you know, and
(18:59):
they're accidentally right.
As the story goes, you know,when you uh ask Edison, you
know, it took him something likea thousand tries to figure out
how to make an incandescentlight bulb.
And people asked him, so why doyou keep doing this?
You keep failing.
I mean, it looks impossible.
Why do you do this?
And he says, Because every timeI learn another way how not to
do it.
(19:20):
Right.
And so, I mean, we we we trythings, we have a premise, we
try things, we make mistakes, itdoesn't work.
We try something different, seeif that works.
And through that process, wecome up with ideas that gain
traction and and work.
But the problem with some of themodels we have today, first of
all, they don't know the modeldoesn't know whether it's right
(19:42):
or wrong.
So a human has to look at it andsay, Oh, that makes sense, or
that doesn't make sense, or Ican't use that, or something.
Um and they don't have thattrial and error process without
the human involved and uh, youknow, so um so that that process
of innovation and creativity atthat level is something kind of
(20:02):
uniquely human.
Um, if we were to to somehowreorient it so that we create an
algorithm that could could youknow could mimic the human
experience and do that kind ofthing, maybe, but but we're a
long way from that, based onwhat the technology I see today.
SPEAKER_01 (20:22):
I think the idea to create a neuro like neurolink
and the idea of quantumcomputing, what you're
describing is the human brain tosome effectiveness, like
probably fully utilized.
It's probably somewhere ininterconnectivity of human
brains working together would bethe quantum.
That's how you'll solve it isthrough biological centered.
SPEAKER_00 (20:40):
Well, I I saw I saw a quote one time.
Right, the uh yeah, I saw aquote one time that's saying
he's saying that you know thatwe still don't understand.
We think we do, but we stilldon't understand how the human
brain works.
And if even if we if we did, wemight conclude that if it's that
simple, we may not, you know,may not be a problem we're
solving.
(21:01):
You know.
SPEAKER_01 (21:02):
Well, we're very good, you know, we create our
own problems, right, to solve.
So positive and negative, youknow, a creation and like from a
human mind.
Um it's a part of theenvironment, but it's also to me
sometimes similar to likecreation of life, right?
It's it's not fully understoodhow it happens, there's like the
physics of it, but why, right?
And and and it just kind ofsomething that's born or happens
(21:24):
based on lots of things,genetics, things, code, you
know, chemicals.
And so until you can create andunderstand what that spark is
and truly understand why ithappens, then there's no way
you're replicating that.
And if you could, there's arandom factor that's somewhere
coded in us that there's that'sstill not accounted for.
SPEAKER_00 (21:42):
So no, exactly.
I went to this lecture long ago,just as I was starting my
career, it was that something,it was like the cognizance of a
digital computer.
And one of the things they weretalking about was this idea that
if you look back through time,people have tried to, you know,
to they want a mental model forkind of how things work because
(22:03):
it helps people and think theyfeel like they understand,
right?
What's going on?
It's more comfortable forpeople.
And so through time, they'veoften explained the the working
of the human mind as whateverthe most advanced technology of
the time may be.
I mean, there was a a time wherethey thought the human mind
worked like uh a windmill, youknow, or or something like the
(22:25):
electric generator.
And at that period of time ofthis lecture, they were trying
to say it was like a digitalcomputer.
And of course, the computershave have become way more
advanced since then.
Now we're we're talking about,you know, different kinds of AI
chips and stuff.
But it's still we're stilltrying to use the model we have,
the most advanced technologymodel we have to describe the
(22:48):
brain.
But but if if the pattern I'mdescribing continues 10 years
from now, 20 years from now,we'll be using some new
technology to describe the waythe brain works.
We still won't get it.
SPEAKER_01 (22:59):
Yeah, everything we have today has always been on
Earth, right?
Like there's a bunch of stuff wehaven't discovered yet.
All right, uh we'll see iPycould do a whole show on that.
Uh but who do you want to get ahold of you and how do they do
that?
Um, what was that?
It's shameless plug time foryou.
Um who do you want to get a holdof you?
(23:20):
And uh, how do they do that?
SPEAKER_00 (23:22):
Um, yeah, the easiest way to get a hold of me
is is through our companyXareMail.
So www.zare mail.com.
Zare mail spelled like airmailwith a Z on the front.
We've got a toll free number runon the webpage, or you can reach
me, Wilson at ZareMail.com.
That it works.
I'm on LinkedIn, you canconnect, and I, you know, I'm
top five percent electedLinkedIn, so I connect to a lot
(23:44):
of people and I'm happy to doit.
Um we're doing we're automatingmail programs these days for for
a lot of organizations that donot only marketing but do
collections and and things ofthat nature.
So if you have mailing or youhave jobs you think might be
well suited for mailing that wecould help with, we're happy to
work on that.
(24:04):
And we'd love to hear more aboutthat.
Um and uh, you know, I'm uh asyou can tell, I'm a professor
and I'm uh you know, lifelongentrepreneur.
So I'd be happy to talk aboutother business ideas and ways
that we can help.
I'm I'm always happy happy tohave a discussion and share what
I know.
Um thank you by the way forcoming on the let me add one
(24:27):
other thing, if I could.
I mean we have a we have a newproduct offering we're just
rolling out called Speedy.
It's www.zirmil.com slashspeedy.
It's a free download.
It puts an icon on your desktop.
If you want it, if you take aword dog or a PDF, you know, a
letter of some kind, you drop iton the icon, it says, where do
you want it to go?
Even one letter, you type in anaddress, it turns into a letter
(24:50):
and goes into mail and getsdelivered to people.
And the first two letters arefree.
So uh it's the only product inthe world like that.
It's free to use.
I would encourage everybody togive it a try.
You know, whether you're talkingto your landlord or you want to
send something to your grandmaor you got a bill to pay.
It's a great tool, and it's notgonna cost you anything to try.
SPEAKER_01 (25:11):
Thank you.
That's that's that actuallysounds like a fun little uh tool
to try and play with and seewhat you can do with it.
Thank you again for coming on,Wilson.
Appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00 (25:20):
Well, thank you for the opportunity.
Really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01 (25:23):
It was everyone who made it this far in the show.
Thank you for uh for being here.
If you're the first time, I hopeit's the first of many.
Get out there, go cut a tie towhatever's holding you back from
your success.
Welcome to the Cut the Tie Podcast.
Hello.
I'm your host, Thomas Helfrick,and I'm on a mission to help you
cut that tie.
Metaphorically to anything cutholding you back from your
success.
Please define your own successfirst.
Otherwise, you're chasingsomeone else's dream.
Today, Mr.
A doctor.
Is it doctor?
Do I say doctor?
Wilson?
Zare?
Yes.
Doctor.
(00:20):
Doctor.
SPEAKER_00 (00:21):
And doctor.
More of a professor than amedical doctor, but Yeah, you
still get the doctor.
SPEAKER_01 (00:28):
It's like a bottle of wine, aging and education.
At some point, you get a doctor,though.
Why don't you go take a moment,introduce yourself, where you're
from, what you do?
SPEAKER_00 (00:37):
My name's Wilson Zare.
I'm located here in Portland,Oregon.
We're on a company called XareMail.
And it's like airmail with a Zon the front.
We automate direct mailprograms.
So upload a document, upload alist, see a preview of what
you're going to be produced,push the button, you're in the
mail tomorrow and the next dayat a fraction of the cost.
And honestly, we're the actualformal Xare Mail is a brand
(00:58):
name.
So the formal company is calledSendex.
We're a software company.
We'd have a B2B software as aservice software company.
We've been in business for 20plus years now.
SPEAKER_01 (01:09):
Is this one of the offerings then?
Basically, is the is the piece,or is that in the offering?
SPEAKER_00 (01:14):
Yeah.
So Sendex, software company, andwe have we, you know, we do some
cult consulting work as well.
And we have servers andapplications.
And the type of application thatwe have spent the last two
decades developing is somethingcalled Web2Print.
So we automate the ordering ofprint products.
But over that course of time, weactually invented a product
(01:37):
called hybrid mail working withthe U.S.
Postal Service long ago.
So hybrid mail is mail thatturns starts out digitally, you
know, in digital format, andthen we turn it into actual
physical mail that getsdelivered to homes and
businesses across America,honestly, anywhere in the world,
if you put the right code stampon it.
SPEAKER_01 (01:57):
Fair enough.
In your industry, uh, it there'sless competitors, right?
I was I did unknowingly, youwere going into the next show.
I was like, hey, if you investall your money in print and
everything goes digital, don'tbe pissed it all went digital,
right?
Uh how have you guys I I gottaask, how you guys survived, how
are you navigating the just amassive change, or is it coming
back?
(02:17):
People like, I want physicalthings.
SPEAKER_00 (02:19):
Yeah, no, that's a that's a great question.
I mean, uh, the printingindustry, not just the mailing
industry, but the printingindustry has been consolidating
for the last 20 years.
Uh, you know, if you look atPortland, I I bet there's 30%
less printers there was thanprinting companies than.
SPEAKER_01 (02:34):
Oh, it's even a bit higher, honestly.
I thought it would have like atwo main ones that you had the
capital to survive it.
SPEAKER_00 (02:39):
Yeah, I I don't think it's that small yet,
because people are still doingboxes and posters and packaging
and lots of different things.
SPEAKER_01 (02:46):
That's good to know.
So boxing and let's say postersare uh conference post bigger
things, right?
Um, that's still consideredprint.
I didn't think boxes is part ofthat, because definitely boxes
is well, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (02:57):
No, so so that you know, posters is are something
they call large format.
It's this particular kind ofprint.
Um boxes are interesting.
One we did a project once for acompany that does um the the
they build machines that allowyou to create the inner
packaging for a box.
(03:18):
It turns out a lot of boxes aretwo layers.
There's the cardboard that goesinside, or that thin brown
layer, and then there's a a thinlayer of paper with the artwork
that goes over the top, andthose are both adhered together,
and and that that's used tocreate boxes.
But I mean, if you what I mean,it doesn't take much to go in
the supermarket and look aroundand see all the printed material
(03:39):
everywhere.
I mean, that printing is notgoing away and has not gone
away.
Now, with that said, a lot ofmanufacturing has gone other
places, and you know, it doesn'talways make make sense to print
a box here and ship it to Chinato put a product in it.
So we see that industry movingin some form.
There's it's um, you know, it'salso not immune to lower price
(04:04):
labor, and it is capitalintensive.
Um, so it's a huge, hugelycompetitive industry.
When we got into the businesslong ago, one of our main
competitors was a company calledthe e-Letter.
They were funded by HummerWinblad.
And um, I think they were at theheight of the dot-com era, they
were burning through about$20million a quarter.
(04:25):
And one of the reasons forburning through that money was
that they decided they weregoing to be a printing company
and they bought all theequipment and warehousing and
hired all the people.
And it just wasn't sustainable.
I mean, but at the beginning, wecorrectly identified, I think,
the the idea that there's plentyof capacity out there.
Um, we just need to find a wayto put it to work so we can use
(04:48):
that excess capacity.
The same way, you know, Uberharnesses the excess capacity of
the car in your driveway forpeople who want to give rides.
Um, so we developed a softwarecompany and we handle the front
end of the process.
When it comes to fulfillment,we'll do print and mail
fulfillment through a network ofproduction partners, a
nationwide network of productionpartners.
(05:09):
We route the mail electronicallyto a place where it needs to go
and where we print it and mailit.
Um it's better for theenvironment and it also moves a
lot faster, it's a lot moreefficient.
We can track it in to end andand let people know what's going
on.
So is uh we've taken a sleepyold product and giving it a new
life and more new relevance inthis digital age.
SPEAKER_01 (05:31):
Yeah, I well, let me ask you this.
So I think that's interestingbecause that solves a problem
for for like someone like me.
Let's say like I think I madethe thing of like, hey, I want
to build a power washingbusiness.
Also I can go to you and say,let's go see if anybody cares.
Do a test run.
You could put it in mailboxes ina certain zip code, and you find
the local, all the things thatfulfill that capacity gap.
(05:53):
Hey, do you you you broker iteffectively?
Correct?
SPEAKER_00 (05:57):
Yeah, yeah, and you could do a mail for a test like
that.
You could you could do a testonline or something, depending
on on what kind of audience youwere getting at.
The thing about all of theseadvertising meetings is that
they're tools.
And as a marketer, as aprofessional marketer, um that's
the way I kind of look at them.
(06:18):
I started out my career as amechanic, an auto mechanic years
ago.
And at that time, they hadsomething called the flat rate
manual.
So they'd assign you a car,they'd say RR repair and replace
transmission, and they give you2.5 hours for it.
And if you could do it in onehour, then you did really well.
And if you took you four hours,then you, you know, it was a bad
day.
(06:39):
And so it turned out that havingthe right tools was really
important.
And the same is true formarketing.
I mean, direct mail does somethings or the mail does some
things that other tools don'tdo, and you need to know where
it's appropriate to use andwhere you should use something
else.
If we think about how we'remarketing our own business, I
mean, we use AdWords and we useemail just like everybody else.
(07:00):
I mean, we in and we use it inthe places that make sense, but
we also use mail, direct mail,and we do it for for our
clients.
And I can give you lots ofexamples of uh how that works.
SPEAKER_01 (07:11):
Well, let me start with how do you just personally
define success right now?
SPEAKER_00 (07:15):
How do I define success?
That's a great question.
Um, then I'm not sure.
I think it may depend on theday.
Um for me, I mean, success isnot all about work or
professional endeavors.
I mean, I do having a healthy,happy family that loves and
(07:37):
supports each other is isprobably top of the list.
Um, I am a lifelong entrepreneurand and technology executive.
So I like and an engineer bytraining.
So I I love building things,software things, and solving
problems and working withcustomers.
I mean, unlike uh a lot of theother folks in our in our
(07:58):
segment.
I mean, if you look at ourwebsite, that toll-free number
is right there.
It's big and bold, right in themiddle of the site.
We want to talk to people, youknow, we want to hear about your
problems.
We want to talk to you about howwe can solve them.
And uh have we run out of wenever run out of time.
If we thought we were runningout of time, we just hire more
people to answer the phone.
SPEAKER_01 (08:20):
So having having that kind of like success for
family around those pieces, oneof the questions I always ask is
is just follow.
Just, you know, you talk aboutyour journey a little bit, but
what's been one of the biggestlike you know metaphoric ties
you've had to cut to achievethat success?
SPEAKER_00 (08:35):
Hmm.
I don't know.
I mean, once again, greatquestion, but it it it's
interesting to me becauseforever people have talking
about talked about a work-lifebalance, which I which I think
is very important.
I mean, uh I'm I have uh I'vebeen a competitive swimmer my
whole life, and I swim a lot.
And I we live in uh we'refortunate enough to live in a
(08:56):
very beautiful part of thecountry.
I have a another place in theColumbia River Gorge, which is
National Snake Area, beautifulspot, lots of places to hike and
swim and do stuff.
So we'd like to be able to geton and do that.
Um, but somehow in the in hiswork-life balance model, it's
it's implied that you spend 50%of your day doing fun stuff and
(09:18):
50% of well, I mean, if you'redoing what you like, I guess
it's all fun stuff, but 50% ofyour day doing professional
stuff, 50% of your day doingother lifestyle things.
And it seems like it doesn'treally work that way.
You know, you'll have two weekswhere you're just crunching it
out, working on professionalstuff, trying to hit deadlines,
trying to get stuff delivered,and then maybe spend uh you
(09:39):
know, you know, uh another largepiece of time just you know
trying to decompress and work,you know, spend time with family
and friends and things of thatnature.
So being able to to balance thatand balance it in a way that
makes sense, um, so that you'renot just completely owned by the
business.
Um that can still be successful.
(10:02):
Uh it seems to be important.
SPEAKER_01 (10:03):
Yeah.
I mean, that is that the so fromthe metaphoric sense of the
show, right?
Cut the tie.
Uh, is it's it was you learningwhat balance actually was.
Like, I don't think it's ever50-50.
A third of it's sleeping ifyou're you're lucky.
Um, I didn't count that.
Like, can you make do on thedays it can you decompress long
enough when you know you couldto take advantage of the space
(10:24):
that you've created foryourself?
Like that is a hard thing to getused to doing is allowing
yourself to take your foot offthe gas for a couple of days or
for a day or something likethat, and enjoy and be present
in the moment around you.
SPEAKER_00 (10:36):
It is.
It's hard.
But then again, as anentrepreneur, assuming that we
get it right, I mean, we can wedesign a business around our
lifestyle or uh around what wewant to do.
Right.
I mean, if I'm working at uh aFortune 500 company, I have to
be there at whatever time, eighteight o'clock in the morning.
SPEAKER_01 (10:57):
And arbitrary uh industrial time like eight to
five, like why like in noon andseven as well.
SPEAKER_00 (11:07):
Well, I think I've worked at those kind of
companies.
I mean, I I remember working atuh a very successful computer
company where it was responsiblefor a very large revenue
generating product.
And I mean, you were expected tobe there every day between it,
wasn't eight to five, it wasmore like eight to seven, and
most of the day was meetings,which means once you got
finished with your day, you hadto figure out how to actually do
(11:28):
work, you know.
So you just get went frommeeting to meeting, gathering a
list of the stuff that you hadto do, and then you had to
spend, you know, after hourstime trying to get it done.
Um and that doesn't lend itselfvery well to work life balance,
that's for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (11:44):
No balance on that for sure, because you're just
like by the time you get home,we're like, I don't want to do
anything.
Um if you go back in timethough, in any part of your
timeline, go back, what wouldyou do differently?
SPEAKER_00 (11:59):
And that's a great question, too.
And I mean uh you got lots ofgreat questions.
We're getting deeper.
We're gonna keep um Yeah, I I'mnot sure really.
I mean, I I I'm not sure that Iwould I would change anything
exactly.
I mean, I mean, there have been,you know, I career-wise, there
(12:20):
have been ups and downs.
You know, I've built lots, youknow, successful companies and
I've had some that were lesssuccessful.
I've acquired companies and I'vesold companies.
I've taken advantage ofopportunities and I've missed
opportunities.
Um, but I would say from everyone of those circumstances,
whether it's up or down, I'velearned stuff that allowed me to
(12:42):
move forward and and dosomething else I wanted to do.
I have this model I worked on.
I I well, you mentioned I have aPhD.
I also teach at the universityenvironment, you know, when I'm
not doing startups.
Uh, and I've done that for a lotof years.
I usually teach marketing,entrepreneurship, finance, and
business strategy, not computerscience, interestingly enough.
(13:04):
But one of the models that wework on is around strategic
planning.
And so you say, you know, whatwhat's our strategic plan for
the coming year?
And that's a function of, youknow, there's one side of it is
what is the environment you'reworking in?
So what kind of opportunitiesyou're presenting.
Another piece of it is, what aremy um core capabilities, right?
(13:25):
What resources do I have to workwith?
What what could I do?
Being able to match those two.
But you know, the you know,forecasting future is not an you
know, uh I would say not anexact science, right?
Things challenge.
And so we have to be fuzzy.
I mean, how far out do you plan?
Five years?
(13:46):
Maybe that's too far for mostpeople.
Two weeks, I'm that's gonna bealmost exact, but does that
help?
I I don't know.
But I do know that anywherealong that timeline, the what I
can do today is a function ofwhat I've done in the past, what
I've planned for, what I'vedone, what I know, what I have
the resources for.
So the stuff I want to do today,I've really had to start putting
(14:10):
in place, you know, long ago,you know, maybe a month ago,
maybe six months ago.
And the same goes with lifeexperiences, right?
I mean, the the the place I amtoday and the choices I make
today are a function ofeverything I've learned in the
past.
And so, yeah, so I could havetaken away some of these
(14:31):
experiences and maybe avoidedsome pain or maybe you know,
some angst.
But in doing that, I would youknow decrease my options for the
future.
I would have less options andless insight and to um guide me
forward.
SPEAKER_01 (14:46):
Yeah, I mean that that's a great answer because
it's like it, you know, thatstuff's happening for you and
not to you, and if you take itthat way.
But I do like I wouldn't callthat something out.
You said the things you're doingtoday, the habits you form, the
things you do, will determinewhat's gonna happen or likely
could happen tomorrow.
So did you go to that networkingevent?
Did you send the email?
Did you get your work done?
Like all those little thingsstack up to present the next
(15:08):
thing.
And if you don't take any actionor do anything that's positive
or do things that are less, thenthen the next step coming is
gonna be triggered around yourown action.
And I always find thatinteresting when people are
like, oh, I never I'm not lucky.
I'm like, oh did you createluck?
I'm like, did you get it outthere and look for what you
needed to go do?
So I I I like that you have toexecute daily to figure out a
(15:29):
year or two weeks, whatever, togo in the direction where else
right.
SPEAKER_00 (15:33):
I mean, I mean, it's I mean, opportunities do per
present themselves.
You know, there's a case forbeing opportunistic.
You have to recognize theopportunities, but you also have
to put yourself in the rightplace to have those
opportunities available.
unknown (15:48):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (15:49):
Exactly.
Not everybody can do that.
You know, that's but in and itoften, you know, what people see
say is see as good luck is a lotof hard work.
SPEAKER_01 (15:59):
Now, if there's a question today I should have
asked you, I didn't.
What would that question havebeen?
SPEAKER_00 (16:05):
You know, to be honest, I'm not sure what your
listeners would want to hearmost about.
I mean, if uh we can talk about,you know, it seems like
everything's AI today.
We can talk about how importantthat is and what that really
looks like.
I can opinion around that.
Sure.
SPEAKER_01 (16:19):
Actually, when it comes to printing, how much how
much is AI impacting your world?
SPEAKER_00 (16:28):
AI has impact.
I mean, everything, everybodywants to have an AI story these
days.
So there's some impact.
I'm not sure if I'm putting inkon paper, um then um I'm not
sure how much it impacts that.
It may impact knowledge, youknow.
If I want to, if I want toproduce a certain kind of
(16:49):
product, I may be able to learnhow to do that quicker.
I may be able to find additionalresources or additional
shortcuts and things.
I it's it's interesting.
I I I will, you know, step intothis argument a little bit
because I I've been doingcomputer science a very long
time.
And even back when I was inschool, people talked about AI,
(17:10):
you know, and and what thatmeant.
You know, it was more like asentient creating a sentient
being rather than, you know, uhan executive assistant.
Um and you know, we talk aboutat that time, they talk about
how the space odyssey, right?
How how the computer or morerecently irobot, you know, with
Will Smith, you know, creatingthese thinking, reasoning
(17:33):
beings.
The AI we we have today seems tobe, it seems to revolve around
more efficient ways of findingdata and or using data, and that
um, which is not a bad thing.
It's a good thing.
I completed a couple of yearsago, I I went through, I
completed a data analyticsprogram at Harvard University
(17:54):
right at the beginning of this,you know, of this uh current AI
push.
And it was um looking at largelanguage models and you know,
letting the data bubble out, uhbubble up and how do we use it.
And it's incredibly powerful,but once again, it is it's
mostly just a tool.
(18:15):
It's powerful in the hands of aof a person or a set of people,
you know, a team, and it'spowerful for doing a certain set
of tasks.
But if you think about a petrant here, I mean, if you think
about innovation and creativity,which is the area where I got my
PhD.
And it relates back to theconversation we had earlier,
(18:38):
too.
Um with something like AI, wewould tend to go back and look
at all the good ideas thatpeople had and try to see if
there's a common theme and waysthat we can use that to create
new good ideas.
But if I think about good ideasand innovation, a lot of them
are the product of bad ideas,not good ideas, you know, and
(18:59):
they're accidentally right.
As the story goes, you know,when you uh ask Edison, you
know, it took him something likea thousand tries to figure out
how to make an incandescentlight bulb.
And people asked him, so why doyou keep doing this?
You keep failing.
I mean, it looks impossible.
Why do you do this?
And he says, Because every timeI learn another way how not to
do it.
(19:20):
Right.
And so, I mean, we we we trythings, we have a premise, we
try things, we make mistakes, itdoesn't work.
We try something different, seeif that works.
And through that process, wecome up with ideas that gain
traction and and work.
But the problem with some of themodels we have today, first of
all, they don't know the modeldoesn't know whether it's right
(19:42):
or wrong.
So a human has to look at it andsay, Oh, that makes sense, or
that doesn't make sense, or Ican't use that, or something.
Um and they don't have thattrial and error process without
the human involved and uh, youknow, so um so that that process
of innovation and creativity atthat level is something kind of
(20:02):
uniquely human.
Um, if we were to to somehowreorient it so that we create an
algorithm that could could youknow could mimic the human
experience and do that kind ofthing, maybe, but but we're a
long way from that, based onwhat the technology I see today.
SPEAKER_01 (20:22):
I think the idea to create a neuro like neurolink
and the idea of quantumcomputing, what you're
describing is the human brain tosome effectiveness, like
probably fully utilized.
It's probably somewhere ininterconnectivity of human
brains working together would bethe quantum.
That's how you'll solve it isthrough biological centered.
SPEAKER_00 (20:40):
Well, I I saw I saw a quote one time.
Right, the uh yeah, I saw aquote one time that's saying
he's saying that you know thatwe still don't understand.
We think we do, but we stilldon't understand how the human
brain works.
And if even if we if we did, wemight conclude that if it's that
simple, we may not, you know,may not be a problem we're
solving.
(21:01):
You know.
SPEAKER_01 (21:02):
Well, we're very good, you know, we create our
own problems, right, to solve.
So positive and negative, youknow, a creation and like from a
human mind.
Um it's a part of theenvironment, but it's also to me
sometimes similar to likecreation of life, right?
It's it's not fully understoodhow it happens, there's like the
physics of it, but why, right?
And and and it just kind ofsomething that's born or happens
(21:24):
based on lots of things,genetics, things, code, you
know, chemicals.
And so until you can create andunderstand what that spark is
and truly understand why ithappens, then there's no way
you're replicating that.
And if you could, there's arandom factor that's somewhere
coded in us that there's that'sstill not accounted for.
SPEAKER_00 (21:42):
So no, exactly.
I went to this lecture long ago,just as I was starting my
career, it was that something,it was like the cognizance of a
digital computer.
And one of the things they weretalking about was this idea that
if you look back through time,people have tried to, you know,
to they want a mental model forkind of how things work because
(22:03):
it helps people and think theyfeel like they understand,
right?
What's going on?
It's more comfortable forpeople.
And so through time, they'veoften explained the the working
of the human mind as whateverthe most advanced technology of
the time may be.
I mean, there was a a time wherethey thought the human mind
worked like uh a windmill, youknow, or or something like the
(22:25):
electric generator.
And at that period of time ofthis lecture, they were trying
to say it was like a digitalcomputer.
And of course, the computershave have become way more
advanced since then.
Now we're we're talking about,you know, different kinds of AI
chips and stuff.
But it's still we're stilltrying to use the model we have,
the most advanced technologymodel we have to describe the
(22:48):
brain.
But but if if the pattern I'mdescribing continues 10 years
from now, 20 years from now,we'll be using some new
technology to describe the waythe brain works.
We still won't get it.
SPEAKER_01 (22:59):
Yeah, everything we have today has always been on
Earth, right?
Like there's a bunch of stuff wehaven't discovered yet.
All right, uh we'll see iPycould do a whole show on that.
Uh but who do you want to get ahold of you and how do they do
that?
Um, what was that?
It's shameless plug time foryou.
Um who do you want to get a holdof you?
(23:20):
And uh, how do they do that?
SPEAKER_00 (23:22):
Um, yeah, the easiest way to get a hold of me
is is through our companyXareMail.
So www.zare mail.com.
Zare mail spelled like airmailwith a Z on the front.
We've got a toll free number runon the webpage, or you can reach
me, Wilson at ZareMail.com.
That it works.
I'm on LinkedIn, you canconnect, and I, you know, I'm
top five percent electedLinkedIn, so I connect to a lot
(23:44):
of people and I'm happy to doit.
Um we're doing we're automatingmail programs these days for for
a lot of organizations that donot only marketing but do
collections and and things ofthat nature.
So if you have mailing or youhave jobs you think might be
well suited for mailing that wecould help with, we're happy to
work on that.
(24:04):
And we'd love to hear more aboutthat.
Um and uh, you know, I'm uh asyou can tell, I'm a professor
and I'm uh you know, lifelongentrepreneur.
So I'd be happy to talk aboutother business ideas and ways
that we can help.
I'm I'm always happy happy tohave a discussion and share what
I know.
Um thank you by the way forcoming on the let me add one
(24:27):
other thing, if I could.
I mean we have a we have a newproduct offering we're just
rolling out called Speedy.
It's www.zirmil.com slashspeedy.
It's a free download.
It puts an icon on your desktop.
If you want it, if you take aword dog or a PDF, you know, a
letter of some kind, you drop iton the icon, it says, where do
you want it to go?
Even one letter, you type in anaddress, it turns into a letter
(24:50):
and goes into mail and getsdelivered to people.
And the first two letters arefree.
So uh it's the only product inthe world like that.
It's free to use.
I would encourage everybody togive it a try.
You know, whether you're talkingto your landlord or you want to
send something to your grandmaor you got a bill to pay.
It's a great tool, and it's notgonna cost you anything to try.
SPEAKER_01 (25:11):
Thank you.
That's that's that actuallysounds like a fun little uh tool
to try and play with and seewhat you can do with it.
Thank you again for coming on,Wilson.
Appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00 (25:20):
Well, thank you for the opportunity.
Really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01 (25:23):
It was everyone who made it this far in the show.
Thank you for uh for being here.
If you're the first time, I hopeit's the first of many.
Get out there, go cut a tie towhatever's holding you back from
your success.
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