March 5, 2025 • 52 mins
Never Been Promoted Podcast with Thomas Helfrich
David Roche shares his insights on leadership, decision-making, and overcoming imposter syndrome as a first-time CEO. With decades of experience leading companies and coaching executives, David discusses how leaders can rethink their approach to success, navigate challenges, and build lasting impact.
About David Roche:
David Roche is a leadership coach, mentor, and author of Become a Successful First-Time CEO. With a background as a CEO, board director, and executive mentor, David has worked across multiple industries, guiding leaders through high-stakes transitions and complex business challenges. His coaching approach combines practical leadership strategies with psychological insights to help CEOs build confidence and lead with clarity.
In this episode, Thomas and David discuss:
- The Reality of First-Time CEOs
David explains why new CEOs often struggle with imposter syndrome, decision fatigue, and leadership pressure—and how they can navigate these challenges.
- How to Build Trust and Lead Effectively
Trust is the foundation of great leadership. David shares strategies for building strong relationships with teams, boards, and stakeholders while maintaining confidence in decision-making.
- Overcoming Fear and Making Bold Decisions
Leadership requires making tough calls. David breaks down how to balance intuition, data, and risk-taking to make confident, impactful decisions.
Key Takeaways:
- CEOs Don’t Need All the Answers—They Need the Right Questions
David emphasizes that great leaders aren’t those with all the answers but those who ask the right questions and surround themselves with the right people.
- Leadership Is About Adaptability, Not Just Authority
The best CEOs learn to pivot when needed and recognize that their leadership style must evolve with their team and company.
- Coaching and Mentorship Are Essential for Growth
Even top CEOs rely on mentors and advisors to refine their skills and avoid costly mistakes. David explains why seeking guidance isn’t a weakness—it’s a leadership superpower.
“Imposter syndrome is real, but it’s also a sign that you care. The key isn’t to eliminate it—it’s to lead despite it.” — David Roche
CONNECT WITH DAVID ROCHE:
Website: https://greyareacoaching.co.uk/
Book: Become a Successful First-Time CEO (Available on Amazon)
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidroche
CONNECT WITH THOMAS HELFRICH:
X (Twitter): https://x.com/CutTheTieX
Facebook: http://facebook.com/groups/CutTheTie
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cutthetiecommunity/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@cutthetie
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@cutthetie
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thomashelfrich/
CutTheTie.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Thank you.
Welcome to the Never BeenPromoted podcast and YouTube
channel.
I'm on a mission to help youcut the tie to all the things
that are holding you back so youcan unleash your entrepreneur.
(01:36):
Welcome to Never Been Promoted.
Hello, I'm your host, thomasHelfrich, here in Atlanta,
georgia.
Welcome to Never Been Promoted.
Hello, I'm your host, thomasHelfrich, here in Atlanta,
georgia.
Today we have an interview withsomebody from I think they're
from like London or England, orsomething's falling down and I
think it's a song.
I don't know.
Does London Bridge actuallyfall down?
I'm going to ask him this whenhe gets on.
But anyway, david Roach, he is,you know, gray area thinking.
(01:59):
He helps first-time CEOs.
So if you are a first-time CEO,or maybe even a CEO who's just
struggling, his coaching canhelp you be successful.
He has a book called Becomes aSuccessful First-Time CEO and
we'll talk about that.
(02:23):
The reason I think David's goingto be a really important guest
for what we're doing here atNever Been Promoted is our
mission is to help you cut ties,that metaphoric things that
hold you back and a lot of times, specifically when you're in a
leadership role for the firsttime, and a very important one,
and it's your.
You know, you got all thepressure of running a company
and being the executive.
It's your dream job.
You're trying to do this.
You get this imposter syndrome.
You get all these things, youmake up shit, you just you don't
know what you're doing Really.
Your, your, your chances offailure are pretty high, I think
it's.
You know, two out of five maybemake it the first time or they
(02:45):
don't fail.
And but Dave will have all themetrics on that.
But this is this will be a veryimportant topic to learning
what parts of being a leader youneed to rethink how to
re-engineer, re-position yourthinking to to be a really good
leader, so you can redefine howyou're going to lead that
company.
For it, I have one shamelessplug.
We have the Cut the Tiecommunity starting.
(03:05):
So if you can go tocutthetiecom, check it out.
You can see a community whereyou go there to get help and
give help to get your ties cutfor things that are holding you
back.
So check that out.
Enough shameless plugs, it'stime to plug.
Mr David Roche.
No, it's David Roche.
How are you David?
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Hi Thomas, very well indeed, just recovering from
recognizing the dad dancing fromyou in the intro.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
I mean, that's just standard dancing for a guy who
doesn't know how to dance, right, anybody who doesn't know how
to dance does the slightoverbite on the lip Right right,
just kind of there's terms forthat.
I'm terrible at dancing, mywife excellent dancer, me no, if
you've got one move.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
this works.
Just stick with it, it's fine.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Mine is to sit down and look at others dance.
You like to watch it okay?
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Where are you joining us from today?
From a town calledKingston-upon-Thames, just
outside southwest London, nearWimbledon, where the tennis is.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
There you go.
See, I was correct.
By the way, did London Bridgeactually fall down at some point
?
Speaker 2 (04:09):
No, I think it was bought by the Americans.
Actually it's out in the desertsomewhere, the original one.
They thought they were buyingTower Bridge, I think, which is
the more ornate one that's funnyand they're like what is this
crap?
Speaker 1 (04:21):
It's that song that's funny and they're like what is
this crap?
London bridge is falling down,but no one tells me why it fell
or if it actually did so maybeit's the price that's falling
down.
Oh, I gotcha when you got intothis business.
Right, You're a CEO coach.
(04:41):
Let's do this first.
Start with what it is you dotoday.
Just give us like the tease andI don't know how you even get
into something like this.
So can you set this up for us?
A little bit of where we aretoday and fly back.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Yeah, sure, I mean, I think, how you get into it.
Certainly, what I try and do iscombine coaching and mentoring
because I try and use the 30years of scars and an experience
that I picked up going alongthe way working as a board
director, a CEO, a president, achair of various different
(05:14):
corporate companies, startups,not-for-profit boards and so on
and so forth where you can bringin, on the mentoring side, the
experience to try and avoid themistakes but have the coaching
skills to be able to provide anindependent sounding board and
(05:34):
also break down the limitingbeliefs that people have,
particularly when you're gettinginto that first time coaching.
And I think that combinationalso helps people aspiring to
become a first time CEO who havethe ability to make their own
luck and they're sort of sittingthere waiting.
I keep being overlooked.
Actually, you have the abilityto change things yourself.
(05:56):
So it's trying to use all theexperience I've had and all the
times I've got it wrong to tryand help other people.
Shortcut that process andeveryone's progress is going to
be slightly rollercoaster, butavoiding some of the mistakes
can avoid some of the dips.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
What was your first CEO role?
Speaker 2 (06:20):
First CEO role was a US company.
Remember Borders Books.
They had a European operation.
They had 60 stores in the UKand they bought a chain called
Books Etc as well to try andsort of be the launchpad, and I
(06:41):
was CEO of their Europeanoperation and I've worked in
publishing and in Waterstones,which is the biggest UK book
chain, and so it was a naturalfit.
But it was really interestingas a first-time CEO to have your
(07:01):
bosses based in Ann Arbor inMichigan, on a different time
zone, but they had a format onhow a border store was run which
they wanted you to follow, butyou also.
Again, some of that's not goingto work in the UK.
You know retail is verydifficult to transfer,
particularly for Brits actuallygoing out to the US, but some of
that works the other way too.
So it was an interestingchallenge.
But, like everyone else, you'refull of imposter syndrome.
(07:25):
As you mentioned, you'rewearing an armor that makes you
look as if you know all theanswers, but underneath you're
reaching out and going.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Ah, You're sweating profusely, going I don't know
what.
I'm doing, I'm curious From aretail standpoint Borders just
any of the bookstores Barnes,noble.
What works in?
What works in the US thatabsolutely doesn't work in the
UK?
Speaker 2 (07:47):
That's a really good question.
I think the over-the-topcustomer service is actually the
most calling thing In Americathe can I help you or have a
nice day and all that stuff is.
In the uk everyone's much morelaid back and, and particularly
(08:08):
men.
If someone approaches them in ashop and says can I help you or
whatever you know, he saidthanks.
Basically I was just browsing,having enjoying myself, but now
I'm going straight out that door.
Uh, interaction, that's thelast thing I was expecting I
would have no idea, okay.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
so it's kind of like I got this, I don't need help,
just be polite when I dointeract with you.
But let me initiate theinteraction.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Yeah, generally.
Generally, I mean, obviouslyyou do.
What interaction does lead tosales.
So so what I tried, what Itried to instill in the in, in
our teams, in the stores, wasdon't say can I help you, Are
you having a nice day, Whatever?
Just go up and start aconversation, and the icebreaker
was always what are you readingat the moment?
(08:51):
And that suddenly got into.
Oh God, I'm reading this, Ilike crime thrillers, or I'm
buying for a grandson orwhatever the hell it was.
It just started something goingand then take it from there.
That was the better way, in theUK anyway, I think actually
that would work in the U Sbetter Cause.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Then people would be, they'd feel understood, there'd
be some empathy.
Oh, totally understand, I havea grandson, or yeah, my friend
just went through that too, ifyou need you know.
At that point you're like, well, you got a great section on
something.
It also drives in command ofknowledge, and what I'm getting
at with with being with the ceois you made a good point to
(09:33):
recognize that's probably notgoing to work.
How?
I mean these, these uh,franchise type model us kind of
companies?
How?
How was that rub with them?
This, were they like do itanyway.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Yeah, I mean what they don't see, they don't know,
was the sort of rule.
And yeah, the look at thestores was pretty good.
The biggest difference I thinkthe best thing that we
transferred was the casualfriendliness to the punters
coming in the door, becausebookshops in the UK were often
(10:08):
like the sort of libraries yousee in 1950s movies, where it's
shh and the children were don'ttouch any of the books.
Whatever you do, you're likedon't put that coffee down,
whereas we're actually justsitting there going take, you
know, there's a Starbucks in thestore, take the coffee anywhere
you want, touch everything,play with everything, and
(10:30):
parents are going.
My God, I can bring my childrento a bookstore without being
out and wrecking the place andthe dwell time as a result was
much, much longer than withother bookstores.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Not dwelling on your original piece, but my
assumption is because I used togo to those bookstores just to
find the information I neededkind of pre-Google right and
just to find it, and then Iwould leave, but I'd almost
always buy a coffee.
I figured like that has to bethe model.
Is they just want you to buy acandy bar or a coffee?
Speaker 2 (10:59):
I wasn't sure.
I'm never sure whether it was ameasure of success or whatever.
Never sure whether it was ameasure of success or or
whatever, but often you find inthe books beside, beside the
coffee shop had bookmarks inthem sometimes.
So people obviously came thereevery day for lunch and went
right.
Okay, where was I?
Speaker 1 (11:14):
that's awesome.
Uh, so, moving past that, sothat was your first role.
Uh, interesting market, becauseit's.
It's a.
You know, it's hard to be in ashrinking market where, like,
like that's it's not that it'sgone away and it's not that it's
ever going to go away, but it'sthe horse.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
When the car came, yeah, I mean the book industry
has been interesting becauseit's been around for hundreds of
years.
But if you think about thephysical book, it wobbled a
little bit when e-books came in,but actually it's sort of
bounced back quite nicely in thelast few years and they
complement each other came in,but actually it's sort of
bounced back quite nicely in thelast few years.
They complement each other.
I think eBooks also don'treally make gifts in a very
(11:51):
friendly way giving someone afile or whatever.
It's not the same as a book.
Actually, production valueshave gone up and the physical
book is now on most people'ssort of Christmas list somewhere
.
So I think it's held up prettywell.
And actually I used to work atHMV, which is the biggest chain
(12:13):
of entertainment stores here,and certainly I've experienced
the digitization of the musicindustry and the film industry
as well and games, and I thinkthe book industry is relatively
done OK.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
You are so from that.
Right, that was your first one.
Take me through the next few,because what I want to set up
are kind of like yourcredentials of hey, you went
through that, didn't work, wentto this, didn't work, yeah, like
, take me through the CEOjourney.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
I guess the journey.
But just leading up to thatappointment was always.
I did psychology university, Idid a professional qualification
in hypnotherapy and it wasrelationships and why people
think and it was alwaysinteresting to me.
And then I ended up working inretail, which was in a company
(13:03):
that was.
We used to have a stamp whichwas actually literal, not just
metaphorical, which had JFDI on.
I don't know if everyone knowswhat JFDI stands for, but it was
just effing do it.
We were operationally excellent.
Things were implementedimmediately, but that was the
(13:23):
culture of that company.
Were implemented immediately,but that was the culture of that
company.
And then, moving intoWaterstones, the book chain,
suddenly 95% of the staff havegot university degrees and no
one's doing anything unless youexplain the rationale and they
agree with it.
And the JFDA stamp.
(13:44):
No one would have just pickedup sticks and walked out if you
treated them that way.
So, learning the cultures ofthe company, I worked in lots of
different departments and Ithink the breakthrough bit was
probably I was put in charge ofa project which computerized the
whole retail system, fromfinance to stock control, to
(14:06):
store tills, to everything, andit was like a major, major
project and it was critical forthe future of the company.
Suddenly we could run thingscentrally in a way that allowed
us to expand really quickly,whereas before it took years of
experience to put people in thestores, to understand how to run
a store.
And so it was a game changer.
(14:26):
And this suddenly gave meaccess to all the board, all the
departments, experience of allthe parts, how it all fit
together.
And, and to me the biggestinteresting thing around that
and I spent a lot of timetalking with people is the
different, that sort of journeyup the up the greasy pole, where
you are a specialist in a lotof cases but suddenly that
(14:50):
specialism you know, often inengineering companies, in
chemical companies, the bestchemist, the best engineers,
promoted and then suddenly is inmanagement and they're going
hang on, one, I'm no good.
Two, I don't want to do this.
I want to carry on with myresearch.
But management can be trained.
But I think no one talks aboutthe other side, where you're a
(15:11):
generalist and you're going Idon't have any specialist skills
, I'm a jack of all trades,master of none.
But actually, as you go up,what you need to understand is
being a generalist is in itselfa specialist skill well, I mean,
an effective manager isdefinitely a leader.
Yeah, certainly a skill, youknow, at the top of the top of
(15:32):
the tree you are, you are aconductor, you know, you've got
it.
You've got your, your alldifferent parts on the stage
around you, an orchestraconductor, and they've all got
their own characteristics.
You know the brass are totallydifferent to the strings and
whatever, but they all need tocome together and you provide
the score, the tempo, thepassion, the vision, and
(15:57):
actually you need to listen, youneed to trust, you need to
bring this together and actuallythe whole thing is about making
the sum of the parts greaterthan the individuals and,
interestingly for the CEO,they're the only one who
actually doesn't contribute tothe oral experience.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
It's an interesting analogy.
Keep the wrapper that keeps thepackage together, so to speak.
So you have the experience.
And along that journey, right,what would you tell your former
self Like?
What would you, right now,you'd say, all right, listen
well, how would you talk?
Differently about your, yourrole as a CEO or your?
Speaker 2 (16:33):
yeah, I mean it's usually, it's obviously that
accompanies the dips and and andthere was a couple of times
when I had I had was given arole after that project manager
thing, a role on the board asproduct director, sort of head
of buying and marketing on theboard, and that was a real
(16:56):
surprise to me and to everyoneelse.
So you accept that and go OK,I'm a bit of an imposter
syndrome but I'll manage this,it's great news.
Okay, I've a bit of impostersyndrome but I'll manage this,
it's great news.
But then is the dips.
When I was, uh, at one stage Iwas offered the first managing
director role, um, and this wasa sort of dinner behind the
(17:16):
scenes with the um, with thechair, and and it was all going
to be um confirmed in in twomonths time, after Christmas.
We'd been through a couple ofMDs that we brought in from
outside.
It hadn't worked and it wasdefinitely going to be your turn
, your time, and then, and so Ikept my nose clean and I was
(17:37):
told by sort of friends of thechair just don't put a foot
wrong, it's all going to happen,it's all looking good.
And then I had a meeting inJanuary.
I thought it was, I thoughtthis is it.
It's going to be confirmed, andthe guys I've changed my mind,
they're not going to give it toyou and some some strange
operational reasons which werewhich were, I realized later
irrelevant.
And I'm sitting there going howunfair is this?
(17:59):
And?
And so this was the first pointI really understood hang on
that.
You've got to deal with theperson in front of you, and
that's going to be verydifferent to how you deal.
There's no rule book for thisand for that particular person.
What they had wanted to see,without asking me or telling me,
was me to assume the role andactually fix things and take on
(18:25):
that leadership role in advance,without any confirmation,
whereas my advice I'd be givenwas do completely the opposite.
And so I spend a lot of timetalking to people who are
aspiring to be CEOs about don'twait to be given the stripes
before you assume the role.
You can make your own luck.
(18:47):
It's like waiting to be giventhe car keys to prove you can
drive.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
In that instance, though, you certainly have to
play the person, because theother person might be like
that's arrogant, he shouldn'thave done that.
And the next guy might be likehow did he not step up?
He was told Completely andutterly.
It's like you're the boardCompletely and Completely.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
And I think that whole transition piece is really
key to everything.
Mckinsey have a stat that theyquote, which is that a trillion
dollars of market cap is lostfrom Saturn and Paul's 1,500
companies on the basis of poorlymanaged transitions for CEOs
(19:25):
and C-suite people.
Every year, every year, raoulPAL every year.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Holy cow, you can quantify that it is McKinsey
MARK.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
BLYTH, MD, PhD.
It's a big number anyway, itrecognizes that the transition
is really badly planned.
I think when you go for the job, the key question everyone goes
, oh, can you do the job is thekey question, and I sort of
disagree on that because whenyou get to the final shortlist,
probably most people have theexperience and talent to be able
(19:56):
to do the job in some way,shape or form.
I think the real question iscan you be trusted to do the job
?
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Yeah, can you be the?
Speaker 2 (20:02):
job.
When you live there,particularly for the internal
candidate, you have the chanceto build that trust all the way
through the time you're there.
Do you show that you can takeon stuff outside of your comfort
zone and experience and do wellat it?
Do you show an interest in allthe departments and how it all
(20:22):
fits together?
Do you show that you accept andwelcome the tendencies for the
stuff that you haven and welcomethe tendencies, uh, for the
stuff that you haven't had to dobefore, which is so?
It's always this incredibleshock.
That's the first I've seen yougo.
Oh, my god, it's much moredifficult than I thought it was
going to be.
Um, so, so that?
So that can you be trusted?
I think is critical.
Um, but you know the.
(20:45):
I think once you've got the job,that transition piece, suddenly
they spend all their timeconcentrating on right, who are
we going to appoint?
Right, great.
And then suddenly it's right,here's the 100.
Where's your 100-day plan?
You're off and running at 100miles an hour.
You've got to tick, tick, tick,tick and actually it's building
the relationships around you,with your senior leadership team
(21:07):
, with the board above you,across the company, within the
industry.
It's all those relationshipswhich actually are going to
underpin whether you're going tobe successful or not.
Yes, you might tick off a coupleof things on your 100-day plan,
but if you haven't got everyoneon your side, the senior
leadership team is going to haveprobably one or two people
there going.
I should have got the job, butthey're giving you false signals
(21:29):
.
There's probably one or twopeople there going.
I should have got the job, butthey're giving you false signals
.
There's probably one personthere who should have been
jettisoned ages ago and theysuddenly see this as a new
opportunity, my final chance tosave my career.
So that'd be extra helpful,certainly on the surface.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
And that role-playing job the person who greets you
first is the most helpful is theone that ends up being the most
and the worst person for you.
I mean, without fail, that'sbeen my career.
The person was like kindest andlike most helpful.
Wants to take you to lunch.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
The first day is the one that was most threatened and
ends up yeah, they're at theend of the plank.
They shouldn't have walked agesago?
Speaker 1 (22:06):
generally they, they buried.
They've dug this six foot gravemultiple times and no one ever
pulled the trigger, right, yeah,absolutely so.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
So, yeah, I so I think I think that transition
piece is really reallyinteresting and and and you know
, you can make your own luck onthe way out I think it's it's
harder to um to instantly sortof like go right, this is my
culture, this is the way I dothings, particularly going
(22:34):
upwards as well as goingdownwards at the same time.
But you know, that's what acoach is there for, because you
can make it worse for yourselfIf you wear an armour of
impenetrability and sort of Iknow all the answers a mask that
says it also says to everyonedon't get in that person's way,
(22:55):
they don't want any help, youknow, don't question what
they're doing.
And so building thoserelationships are even more
difficult because you're makingit more difficult by having this
false front that says I knoweverything.
But the key to me and this isobviously where I got involved
was this coaching and mentoringcombination, where the
(23:18):
independence is the key, becauseyou need a safe space outside
of the confessional of the boardor whatever, to be able to say
look, I really don't know howthis works, or my boss is a
total and utter, whatever itmight be.
And actually, as a coach andmentor.
(23:40):
You can sometimes just sit inthere going so what are your
conversations like?
And you're acting like it'slike you've got a us plug and a
electrical plug and a uk socketand you and they can't talk to
each other and you're like theconnector in between that sits
there and says when he's sayingthat probably what he wants is
this, this, this.
When she's saying that and it'soften just a misinterpretation
(24:04):
and it might just be you knowyou're not giving enough or
you're giving too much, you'retaking too much time or you're
not decisive.
You know the acting astranslator is a big part of part
of the job too do you thinkthere's a space for?
Speaker 1 (24:15):
uh, I always wanted this, why it's in this day and
age now?
Uh, and this is a bigger companyceo kind of stuff, not like
you're.
You know, we can talk somesolopreneur stuff in a minute,
but if I was a new ceo in acompany for my leadership team,
given the fact that you have somuch technology at your hands,
I'd be like we're going to dosome personality tests and
really get anybody who can gameit and get an understanding of
all these people a little bitmore and then leverage a little
(24:36):
tech to be like who are thesepeople and how do I need to
interact with them.
I think this would be a gooduse for a CEO in the first few
days is to really leverage acoach to understand who the hell
they are actually dealing withand how to interact with them,
because, like you said, thestyle and the communication and
the intentions and themotivations for each of those
people it's incredibly complexand it's absolutely vital to
(24:59):
your success or failure.
Does that happen?
Is anybody actually doing that?
Where they're like they'reputting together?
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
I think so.
I mean, I think it does happenum a bit.
You know, I have there's somevery good, good tests, but
there's some, some, some youknow ones that are not so good
and ones that have been triedand tested for for many years
but actually they've probablydone their time.
You know, um, without dissinganything in particular, you know
some of them are much morecertainly with with my
(25:26):
background in psychology.
Some are more akin to astrologythan necessarily science.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
I was thinking like you have to go to Pisces.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Yeah, you're a Pisces , you'll be fine Stars man.
So yeah, I think.
But the problem is that there'sso many other variables rather
than just characteristics aswell, and you do learn that and
you give out the rope dependingon not only experience,
confidence, track record butactually how the people are
(25:57):
feeling on the day.
And if that's the span of theirjob, this bit over here they
might be really fine at givingthe rope, but that bit they need
some help.
So there's no, even within oneindividual there's different
balances.
But also the person you'retalking to today can be totally
different next week on the samesubject.
(26:18):
You know the boss who didn'tgive me the job.
He was very much a I rule onfear of the sack.
You know that's how I motivatethe company and he would
actually say that to everyoneand I was certainly on the end
of that more than once.
But I saw a string of thoughtthere.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Well, it was more of like when you get into the role
right is the world changes andthere's technology, and I was
just curious.
It's more of just like atangent little.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Sorry, sorry, sorry, I know where I was now.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Who you are from a like from a, from a yeah but,
but.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
But here you are.
As I say, changes because inthis, in the, in the, in the
fear, if you're in the fear ofthe sack mode, someone says in
charge of sales or something,the sales figures are coming in,
(27:14):
there's suddenly a dip in thesales.
The answer is not always right.
I'm just going to crack thewhip harder and apply the
bollocking until the sales comeback up and you suddenly need to
be able to have thoseconversations where you can get
to the cause, which might be.
Last week you thought this andwe agreed that.
This week you want someone tobe able to say actually, my dad
was diagnosed with parkinson'slast week.
I'm, I'm now primary caregiver,blah, blah, blah and.
(27:36):
And in our day you would neverhave brought that stuff up back
in the day with the fear of thesack.
You know this was a week thatwould be a weakness, and it's.
But actually these days it's avery different relationship that
you should have with your teamand it's all about getting the
best out of people as a teamtogether, rather than cracking
the whip to try and make surethat the tigers stay on their
(27:59):
seats around the ring.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
And this comes back to your first point about being
an effective CEO is thetransition, because that's still
a transition problem.
Right, you have old guard, newguard somewhere in between.
We used to do it this way, wealways do it this way and, like
you know, a good leaderrecognizes the state of the art
and the moment versus and who'sthere and who can and can't be
there, um, which which alwaysintroduces a whole lot of things
(28:24):
of like ageism and everythingelse.
Right, and there's also alsothis young groups are like, hey,
we still do things this way,but you don't want to work or
whatever it is.
Pivot the conversation a littlebit too, because we have a lot
of entrepreneurs, first-timeCEOs in their own company, and
they are truly figuring it outby themselves and they're adding
a team member and then maybethey're doing their first hires.
You want to give me like a listof cool advice of what you know
(28:45):
the best CEOs on the planet.
They all do X, y and Z.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
So you should too.
That's a really good questionand I think I often wrestle with
the difference betweenentrepreneurs particularly in
startups and corporate, andcertainly coaching and mentoring
.
I feel much I can coach in anyfield, in any industry, but
mentoring I feel morecomfortable in a corporate
environment because thoserelationship things are probably
(29:16):
more prevalent, whereas anentrepreneur has the
relationship issues pluseverything goes with trying to
keep the show on the road andkeep the cash flowing.
The show on the road and keepthe cash flowing.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
It's a different dynamic, but as they build their
teams and they become leaders,not being arrogant or a
know-it-all is probably a badability, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
I think it's knowing your limits.
I've chaired a couple ofstartups in my time and I've
just taken on the last threemonths chair of a new startup
and I'm really enjoying it.
But boy, it's exciting, boy,it's scary, boy, it's all those
(30:03):
things.
As a founder, if you're in astartup, you're generally a
founder on the basis of visionor tech skill or one thing or
the other, and maybe two out ofthree or four, but rarely you're
the complete package.
And it's understanding when tolet go.
(30:26):
Also, when to say no isdefinitely one thing.
When to pivot is probably themost important.
My vision was we were alwaysgoing to do this.
It was going to be a B2C thingand all the customers would love
us.
But hang on, suddenly, no,basically that hasn't worked.
You're running out of cash, youcan't develop it anymore, and
(30:52):
then suddenly you get abreakthrough moment and I and
I've I've actually seen, seenand delivered this um, where the
babe element goes, yeah, whatyou, what you've got, is is
interesting and our products forour products, but in a way that
that is is a marketing tool,not you're.
You're not going to be takingit to market.
You're not going to be sellingit to market.
You're not going to be sellingit, but I can see how you can
help us target consumers in away.
(31:13):
And suddenly you've got to tellthe CEO's, got to the founder's,
got to cope with my baby.
I've just been told my baby'sugly and that my baby needs to
have a big change.
That is going to go away fromthe dream I had for them, and
(31:37):
that's a very difficult thing.
Plus, also, they tend to thinkI always understood who our
consumer was, who our targetmarket was, and so therefore, I
actually now am an expert inthat market, as opposed to
surrounding myself with experts.
And you see it all the timewhere suddenly the plan's going
(31:58):
along, the plan's going alongand the expertise is brought in,
and suddenly the founder willgo I've got a great idea, let's
do this, this, this, andeveryone's looking around the
table, going really Sometimesit's genius, sometimes it's not,
and it's understanding that.
Okay, I'm one of those peoplewho I come up with 10 ideas a
day and nine of them are allbullshit, and I need to surround
(32:19):
myself with people who tell methe nine are bullshit, the one
may be brilliant, but I needhelp to filter the brilliant-.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
I mean, with those odds that's pretty good.
10% of your stuff's pretty good.
Let's probably say it's one outof 10,000.
Because the entrepreneurial ADDof all the CEOs I've ever met
is it's off the charts typically, and typically by the time
you've heard it, they'venarrowed it down to the top 100.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
But coming back to the first CEO within this
context is really interestingbecause one of the biggest
problems is you've been runningimportant departments or
important companies or whatever,particularly corporate world,
and suddenly you've gone to thisjob.
You've probably got two bosses,10 bosses on the board for the
first time.
But the real killer is you're.
(33:06):
You'll see that all theproblems you're brought to solve
, all the questions that come toyou, all the easy ones are done
.
All the nice ones they're done.
Everyone makes those becausethey're great.
You only get the shitty onesthat are difficult, painful and
give you the option to choosethe least bad one.
So everything you do has gotsome real angst and anger and
(33:30):
central downside andunpopularity to it and suddenly
you go.
Is this the fun bit?
Speaker 1 (33:39):
Is it?
I've had this debate with you,so I'll throw this.
We'll throw the turd on thetable.
See if anybody cleans it uphere.
Okay, the role of a CEO is tofocus on revenue today and then
revenue tomorrow.
Anything else that doesn'talign to that is just nonsense.
What do you think about thatstatement?
And is it too short?
Or is that summarized the roleof the CEO in its entirety?
Speaker 2 (34:09):
I guess it depends on your definition of tomorrow,
not today, not literally.
Tomorrow presumably.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Well, tomorrow meaning the future, or whatever
that is.
And right now, how are we goingto pay bills and how are we
going?
Speaker 2 (34:24):
to.
But it's interesting when youlook at politics everyone would
say the problem is in everyshort-term, as in the UK it's
five-year cycles.
In the US you got two years ofthe four where you're productive
, in the presidential race,whatever.
And in business shareholdersand funders it used to be that
(34:47):
well, it probably still is thecliche of saying what's in the
shareholder's interest, that'sreally the best thing, whether
that's the way to run thecompany.
What's in the shareholder'sbusiness interest is, as you say
, revenue and bottom line andactually trying to second guess
what's in the shareholders'interest can sometimes be
(35:11):
distracting.
You know that might be right.
We need to cut overhead andoften you know if finance people
are put in charge, cuts arealways popular.
You know growing is much moredifficult, but is that
necessarily the visionary way todo it, the inspirational way to
do it and actually how youtreat your people and how you
(35:33):
build your people and selfishly,having an accession plan for
yourself is really key to beable to move on.
Revenue ultimately is there andif you don't move forward
you're not standing still.
(35:54):
So I haven't heard that onebefore, so I haven't given it
any thought.
But I guess revenues ineveryone's interest.
Again the first time CEO,suddenly they go hang on.
I've got all these people I'mresponsible for and their
families and their livelihoods.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
I don't think most CEOs think that way.
I cause, because it would belike cause the cuts are the cuts
and they get.
People get are gone too easilyfor that kind of thing.
Like maybe that you?
I used to think people are likeno, it's numbers, You're a
number.
I'm also a little more negativetowards that just because I've
been through that and otherpeople have too.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
But the CEO's role as a front man is a really
interesting thing, and that'sthe same with founders and
entrepreneurs, probably evenmore so, and arguably, it's much
easier to get a following as anindividual than it is as a
brand.
And if you look at brands, howmany followers does a brand have
(36:48):
versus the figurehead?
You know, if you look at aBezos versus Amazon or Musk and
Tesla and so on and so forth,the individual is everything,
and actually that means not onlypride in working for a company,
but also the ability to attractthe best talent.
You may not have the samerevenue, but that's the person I
(37:10):
want to work for.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
Give me your flagship story of the CEO that you
helped turn it around or becomesuccessful.
I always call it your sellingstory.
By the way, everyone, this isour precursor to the shameless
plug for his book and services.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Hey, you've got to have shameless plug the I don't
know People who got on to becomepharma were successful as me
and who I now try and tap up forinvestment when I join other
companies.
I think it's more moments whereyou start off with someone.
(37:49):
There was one person I workedwith.
She was a first time CEO andshe would say in one breath I'm
crippled by fear.
Every day I go to work and then20 minutes later when you're
saying, who's the best personyou've ever worked for?
And then she'd say, oh well, Ihaven't worked with anyone who I
haven't overtaken within threemonths.
(38:10):
And you sit there and go, godboy, and within half an hour
you've got this sort of basketcase of imposter syndrome to
this incredible, all-conqueringsort of confidence.
And how do you take that personto becoming a more balanced
(38:31):
person?
Because actually you know,eight or nine out of 10 people
leaders do have doubts abouttheir abilities and experience.
It's the one out of 10 whodoesn't.
That I'm more worried about.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Who makes a better CEO, a man or a woman?
Speaker 2 (38:48):
Personally, I've enjoyed working for women more
than I've enjoyed working formen.
Working for men purely becauseit's the, the, the game they're
playing is success for thecompany at revenue in whatever
or whatever measure you choose,and and and that's what.
What the subject is is you'retalking about the majority of
the time with men I've seenworking for, for some big, bold
(39:12):
characters, and you get that inin retail, the, the um, and
certainly retail in the 90s orwhatever, and early 2000s, there
was a lot of ego, there was alot of testosterone.
There was a lot of other stuffgetting in the way potentially
of of making, uh, making theright collective decisions to,
(39:33):
to, to the success of everyone.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
Okay, loaded question who makes a better CEO a
Republican or Democrat?
Don't answer that, I'm justmessing with you.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
I wish I knew more about US politics.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
We're messing with technology right now.
When you, when did you writethe book and what I mean?
I'm I could I maybe guessed theinspiration on it, but you know
what was the moment?
Like I got to write a bookabout this, like do you have the
book you want to show?
It.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
Yeah, it's called become a successful first time
CEO.
It's available on amazoncom andit's, it's.
It's, it's mainly I probablyput it as many anecdotes and
true stories and whatever in it,because to me they um that that
(40:20):
stories make you give youemotions and actually it's
people remember how they feel,not not the bullet points on on
page 38.
So, uh, my, my, it's about,about relationships.
There's no, not necessarily somany right wrongs or how to's.
My editor described it more as awhy-to book rather than a
how-to book and, as I say, lotsof stories on how to get it
(40:43):
wrong.
Some are quite amusing and thebest review I had was from a CEO
who read it and said you know,most business books don't have
the ability to become a genuinepage turner, but this one does
so I took that as a compliment.
Don't don't have the uh abilityto become a genuine page turner
, but this one does, so I tookthat as a compliment.
Uh, maybe it's.
It means it's slightly flippantfor, um, for the business
community, who, people whodevour business books?
(41:05):
I'm not I'm not a a devotee ofreading business books the whole
time.
I love reading fiction.
I think you learn as much aboutthose relationships and those
characters and empathizing anddiversity.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
So some of those big business books are fiction?
Yeah, that's for sure.
They've never been on the show.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
I mean, I originally became a coach actually to
become a better nonic.
When I moved, when I leftcorporate life, I became a
consultant and then movednaturally from consultancy into
non-exec, director and thenchair roles.
I did the coaching course thenbecause I thought the, the, the
ability to question, ask goodquestions to, to support, to
(41:50):
challenge and so on and so forthwe're the same for the non-exec
and um and chair roles.
As it is is within coaching, um, but then it was the, it was
the melding, the mentoring.
That was the key thing.
Because I had I had a coachwhen I was the first.
I see you're incredibly helpful,but sometimes you're just going
, oh, just tell me what to do,and you and you're busy people
(42:12):
see it as a busy people.
So so the coach's in theregoing no, no, no, you have to
come get, you have to arrive atit yourself.
What else could you do?
You sit there, I've got fivefucking minutes, sorry, I've got
five minutes.
You know, before the wall, wallcomes down, you know what would
you do.
And the coach would sit theregoing no, no, but a coach with a
mentor.
What I found and this is reallyinteresting the, the.
(42:33):
If, if a CEO was completelystuck, I would say OK, let me
just tell you something thathappened to me which has some
similarities.
And he started to tell you somestory blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah.
Within about 30, 40 secondsthey would suddenly go stop.
Something you just said clickedin my head and I could see a
(42:54):
way forward in my own thing.
And and the first time ithappens you go and you know
there's, there's, there aresciences around changing the
framework and so on, so forth,but it's, but to me it's.
You know they're surrounded bythese problems.
We've been talking about them,they're surrounded by them, but
you can't see the answer yourown problems.
In the same way you can seeanswers to other people's
problems, but as soon as I Istart saying, well, this is what
(43:15):
happened to me, they switchinto problem-solving mode
because they're listening to you, and suddenly this lightning
connection is made between them,suddenly being in
problem-solving mode but stillbeing surrounded by their own
problems, and suddenlyeverything's much clearer.
And that is every time thathappens, and it happens all the
time.
It's no coincidence, it is likea magic moment.
(43:35):
That is to me that the happiestthing, rather than necessarily
seeing every time that happens,it's a breakthrough moment you
know, you're, uh, you're doingthe jesus technique.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
You're just talking in parables and people go I get
it.
And so you just, should we justsay jesus, david roach, I mean
david well, let's just see if Ican change this something more
interesting.
I don't think that was in yourbook.
Okay, you heard David said he'sdefinitely.
Are you drinking gin?
Is that gin?
What is?
Speaker 2 (44:02):
that, no, no, no, I've just converted this from
water into wine.
It's fine.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
Uh-huh, it's a gin.
You know the Brits love what itis.
Gin's horrible, it's like it'slike drinking in a pine cone.
I don't get it anyway.
Oh, I don't drink but I used totrust me.
I've done plenty of it.
But if alcohol chasted like gin, I would have never drank.
Okay, let me pivot a questionhere.
So in your, you're on thisjourney of uh, being a coach and
(44:28):
or a mentor now, and I think Ithink mentor is in coach or kind
of one in the same.
Um, it depends on who'sconsuming right the piece.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
Yeah, you dial it up and down.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
Yeah, there's lead and then there's teach right
Like, do this, stop doing that?
Like corrections, that'scoaching.
And then what would you do here?
Is mentoring right Based onsituations, because you might
not even know the answer, youjust know how to get it out of
them.
Talk about your business.
So other coaches that are outthere listening and people who
are learning to grow what waskind of hard about you making
that transition to coach, mentorand what's been going on since?
Speaker 2 (45:03):
I mean, to be honest, I still am chair of two
companies.
I chair London Book Fair, whichis the biggest annual book fair
in the world in the first halfof the year, and I chair a
startup and I act as.
So I still do work over andabove to keep my hand in, if you
(45:24):
like, as well as the coaching,so I only have time to work with
so very intensely with four orfive new CEOs.
So to me, I haven't had to justjust do that, um, you know, to
the exclusion of everything else, and I think that's been quite
important for me because it'shelped me um sort of understand
(45:49):
the urgency and relevance,because I'm still experiencing
it myself, um, so the I don'tknow the I think that I I'd like
to answer you in a parable, ifthat's okay I mean, that's what
jesus would do basically wherethe coaching and mentoring thing
clicked with me.
I I love scuba diving.
(46:09):
I've dived all over the worldand I did a free dive.
I'm probably too old for it,but I did a free diving course
no, no tanks or whatever a fewyears ago and and I wanted to
have a, a trainer, a teacher whohad done you know, knew exactly
what they were talking about.
So I I didn't run out of airwhen I'm sort of right
(46:30):
underwater and and and andbreathe wrong or and potentially
do myself a lot of damage orworse.
So they needed to know theirshit.
But also on the first one, Irealized, my God, you know,
shoved in a pool, holds yourbreath.
How long can you hold yourbreath?
You go 30 seconds, 40 seconds,whatever it is, and they're
sitting there, going, okay, andyou're going.
(46:53):
I can't do it for any longer.
And they're going, it's amazing.
And you're going, I can't do itfor any longer.
And they're going, it's amazing.
So a little bit of learning onthe chemistry of oxygen, et
cetera and the physics of howyou breathe, plus the killer is
knowing you've got theselimiting beliefs and coaching
you around them Within two hours.
I'm holding my breath for threeand a half minutes and you're
(47:14):
sitting there going jeez, withinhours I'm, I'm diving down to
25 meters and it's just like,and you've seen again, this is
insane and so, and that that waswhen I was suddenly went my god
, this coaching and mentoringcombination is, is the absolute
winner.
You know, I, I genuinely thinkit can produce extraordinary
(47:35):
things and, and certainly, if itjust been the coaching about
the limiting beliefs andeverything else, that then I, I
don't think, oh, my brainwouldn't have said I don't trust
this person enough to be ableto do it or don't trust myself,
whereas the mentoring went.
These people really know theirshit as well.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
They've been there, done it themselves and if they,
you know, if you get a littletoo confident on that dive, you
go brain dead, which is great,yeah, so just know that and then
coachingly.
Speaker 2 (48:01):
But if that happens, you don't have to worry about
anything after that.
Speaker 1 (48:03):
Yeah, you're over at that point.
Um, just conscious of time.
So how do you want people like,first of all, who, who's the
ideal person, who should get ahold of you and where do you
want them to go, do that?
Speaker 2 (48:13):
yeah, I, I, I, md, phd, phd, mph.
I would say and it's maybeslightly disappointing for your
audience if they're pureentrepreneurs and at the
beginning of their own journeyas a startup person.
I think I wouldn't count myselfas a massively experienced over
(48:34):
decades within the startuparena, but I think the
principles are the same.
I've certainly haven't had anyproblem changing and moving
around different sectors.
I think within largercorporates, it's people who run
big departments at a C-level andare aspiring to be a first-time
(48:57):
ceo or first-time ceosthemselves.
I think you know when we lookat, when we.
If I was to look at the thefuture and leave a legacy, um, I
would say that every singlefirst-time ceo should it should
be compulsory that they'reassigned an independent coach
(49:18):
and mentor.
Absolutely.
I'm very passionately aboutthis, because why wouldn't you?
Even if you take look at it inits cheapest way and say it's an
insurance policy againstfailure, you've got this person
coming going, coming in going.
I'm going to be found out.
They're going to.
They all want me to fail,mentality to, to suddenly hang.
I'm getting all the supportthey could possibly give me to
(49:39):
make this win because everyonewants it to succeed.
Why wouldn't they?
That mind shift is amazing.
So I think anyone who has thatdoubt, who wants to know more
about making their own luck andthen how to manage that
transition.
But the other thing for thefuture is and you see it all the
time, coaching can be seen as asign of weakness.
(50:02):
I need a coach, I'm afirst-time CEO and everyone goes
really, oh, we thought we hadhired someone who had all the
answers.
It's not really how it works.
And actually, the mostexperienced people if you look
at sports people, greatest ofall time at what they do the
Tiger Woods, the Djokovic,federer choose your name.
They understand that having andit may not even be a coach, it
(50:25):
may be the mentor, someone whooffers them independent,
unconditional personal supportto make them as the best they
can possibly be.
They all have it.
You know, there's never onesense of going.
I know it all, I've seen it alland actually I've got it in
here so sorted that I don't needany help.
(50:45):
That's right.
So you see the best and mostexperienced CEOs with their own
coaches and mentors.
And it's a debate, it's adiscussion and that's the thing
about coaching.
Speaker 1 (50:58):
You've got to learn to um, and the mentoring helps
to be equals no, you've got tohave that credibility to be
equals you know, uh, the reasonI have the community of cut the
tie, the mastermind and stuff,is because you need that.
You know, our idea is pay itnow so you get an hour.
Someone's time you give an hour.
The reason is because you needsomeone to.
You know, our idea is pay itnow, so you get an hour.
Someone's time you give an hour.
The reason is because you needsomeone to say that's not how it
(51:19):
works.
I'm not trying to sell anything, just this is what you do,
period.
And the reason is because thathelps people get, you know,
surround themselves with peoplewho don't have a vested interest
in them failing or succeeding,just giving them knowledge and
direction as a starting point.
And I think coaching is.
I mean, I've never had a coach.
I've met very few people Iprobably would hire, and the
times I could hire them Icouldn't afford them.
(51:39):
So there's that.
But just conscious of time, Iwant to thank you for coming on.
I think you have a wealth ofknowledge and you have many,
many leather-bound books behindyou.
So anybody who has that manybooks probably read at least 12
of them, and that's more thanmost.
David, thank you for coming ontoday.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
Absolutely a pleasure .
I really enjoyed theconversation.
Speaker 1 (52:01):
You'd be a very fun person to get a drink with.
I can tell that it's getting alittle later in the day, so he's
already hit the gin bottle.
It was water, but get a hold ofhim at grayareacoachingcom.
David, I'm going to put you inthe periwinkle room here and
I'll be right back, but thankyou yeah, N-B-G-R-E-Y for
Americans, not G-R-A-Y.
We'll put it on G-R-E-Y.
You should probably buy the.
(52:25):
G-R-A-Y it's a very good point.
The first test I can work withDavid is can you spell gray?
All right, I'll be right back.
Thank you so much for joiningme today.
If this was your first timelistening and being here, I
really appreciate you getting tothis point.
And if you've been here before,thank you for coming back.
You know we're on the missionto help entrepreneurs get better
entrepreneurship and in doingso, you'll get better at life.
(52:48):
You know, get coaches, findsupport, get groups, join
communities whatever it takes tobe successful and to be better
(53:09):
at what you do and better atlife.
Uh, that's what we're all aboutand I I appreciate you
listening and getting this point, but until we meet again uh,
thanks for listening to thenever been promoted, thank you.
Thank you.
Welcome to the Never BeenPromoted podcast and YouTube
channel.
I'm on a mission to help youcut the tie to all the things
that are holding you back so youcan unleash your entrepreneur.
(01:36):
Welcome to Never Been Promoted.
Hello, I'm your host, thomasHelfrich, here in Atlanta,
georgia.
Welcome to Never Been Promoted.
Hello, I'm your host, thomasHelfrich, here in Atlanta,
georgia.
Today we have an interview withsomebody from I think they're
from like London or England, orsomething's falling down and I
think it's a song.
I don't know.
Does London Bridge actuallyfall down?
I'm going to ask him this whenhe gets on.
But anyway, david Roach, he is,you know, gray area thinking.
(01:59):
He helps first-time CEOs.
So if you are a first-time CEO,or maybe even a CEO who's just
struggling, his coaching canhelp you be successful.
He has a book called Becomes aSuccessful First-Time CEO and
we'll talk about that.
(02:23):
The reason I think David's goingto be a really important guest
for what we're doing here atNever Been Promoted is our
mission is to help you cut ties,that metaphoric things that
hold you back and a lot of times, specifically when you're in a
leadership role for the firsttime, and a very important one,
and it's your.
You know, you got all thepressure of running a company
and being the executive.
It's your dream job.
You're trying to do this.
You get this imposter syndrome.
You get all these things, youmake up shit, you just you don't
know what you're doing Really.
Your, your, your chances offailure are pretty high, I think
it's.
You know, two out of five maybemake it the first time or they
(02:45):
don't fail.
And but Dave will have all themetrics on that.
But this is this will be a veryimportant topic to learning
what parts of being a leader youneed to rethink how to
re-engineer, re-position yourthinking to to be a really good
leader, so you can redefine howyou're going to lead that
company.
For it, I have one shamelessplug.
We have the Cut the Tiecommunity starting.
(03:05):
So if you can go tocutthetiecom, check it out.
You can see a community whereyou go there to get help and
give help to get your ties cutfor things that are holding you
back.
So check that out.
Enough shameless plugs, it'stime to plug.
Mr David Roche.
No, it's David Roche.
How are you David?
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Hi Thomas, very well indeed, just recovering from
recognizing the dad dancing fromyou in the intro.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
I mean, that's just standard dancing for a guy who
doesn't know how to dance, right, anybody who doesn't know how
to dance does the slightoverbite on the lip Right right,
just kind of there's terms forthat.
I'm terrible at dancing, mywife excellent dancer, me no, if
you've got one move.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
this works.
Just stick with it, it's fine.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Mine is to sit down and look at others dance.
You like to watch it okay?
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Where are you joining us from today?
From a town calledKingston-upon-Thames, just
outside southwest London, nearWimbledon, where the tennis is.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
There you go.
See, I was correct.
By the way, did London Bridgeactually fall down at some point
?
Speaker 2 (04:09):
No, I think it was bought by the Americans.
Actually it's out in the desertsomewhere, the original one.
They thought they were buyingTower Bridge, I think, which is
the more ornate one that's funnyand they're like what is this
crap?
Speaker 1 (04:21):
It's that song that's funny and they're like what is
this crap?
London bridge is falling down,but no one tells me why it fell
or if it actually did so maybeit's the price that's falling
down.
Oh, I gotcha when you got intothis business.
Right, You're a CEO coach.
(04:41):
Let's do this first.
Start with what it is you dotoday.
Just give us like the tease andI don't know how you even get
into something like this.
So can you set this up for us?
A little bit of where we aretoday and fly back.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Yeah, sure, I mean, I think, how you get into it.
Certainly, what I try and do iscombine coaching and mentoring
because I try and use the 30years of scars and an experience
that I picked up going alongthe way working as a board
director, a CEO, a president, achair of various different
(05:14):
corporate companies, startups,not-for-profit boards and so on
and so forth where you can bringin, on the mentoring side, the
experience to try and avoid themistakes but have the coaching
skills to be able to provide anindependent sounding board and
(05:34):
also break down the limitingbeliefs that people have,
particularly when you're gettinginto that first time coaching.
And I think that combinationalso helps people aspiring to
become a first time CEO who havethe ability to make their own
luck and they're sort of sittingthere waiting.
I keep being overlooked.
Actually, you have the abilityto change things yourself.
(05:56):
So it's trying to use all theexperience I've had and all the
times I've got it wrong to tryand help other people.
Shortcut that process andeveryone's progress is going to
be slightly rollercoaster, butavoiding some of the mistakes
can avoid some of the dips.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
What was your first CEO role?
Speaker 2 (06:20):
First CEO role was a US company.
Remember Borders Books.
They had a European operation.
They had 60 stores in the UKand they bought a chain called
Books Etc as well to try andsort of be the launchpad, and I
(06:41):
was CEO of their Europeanoperation and I've worked in
publishing and in Waterstones,which is the biggest UK book
chain, and so it was a naturalfit.
But it was really interestingas a first-time CEO to have your
(07:01):
bosses based in Ann Arbor inMichigan, on a different time
zone, but they had a format onhow a border store was run which
they wanted you to follow, butyou also.
Again, some of that's not goingto work in the UK.
You know retail is verydifficult to transfer,
particularly for Brits actuallygoing out to the US, but some of
that works the other way too.
So it was an interestingchallenge.
But, like everyone else, you'refull of imposter syndrome.
(07:25):
As you mentioned, you'rewearing an armor that makes you
look as if you know all theanswers, but underneath you're
reaching out and going.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Ah, You're sweating profusely, going I don't know
what.
I'm doing, I'm curious From aretail standpoint Borders just
any of the bookstores Barnes,noble.
What works in?
What works in the US thatabsolutely doesn't work in the
UK?
Speaker 2 (07:47):
That's a really good question.
I think the over-the-topcustomer service is actually the
most calling thing In Americathe can I help you or have a
nice day and all that stuff is.
In the uk everyone's much morelaid back and, and particularly
(08:08):
men.
If someone approaches them in ashop and says can I help you or
whatever you know, he saidthanks.
Basically I was just browsing,having enjoying myself, but now
I'm going straight out that door.
Uh, interaction, that's thelast thing I was expecting I
would have no idea, okay.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
so it's kind of like I got this, I don't need help,
just be polite when I dointeract with you.
But let me initiate theinteraction.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Yeah, generally.
Generally, I mean, obviouslyyou do.
What interaction does lead tosales.
So so what I tried, what Itried to instill in the in, in
our teams, in the stores, wasdon't say can I help you, Are
you having a nice day, Whatever?
Just go up and start aconversation, and the icebreaker
was always what are you readingat the moment?
(08:51):
And that suddenly got into.
Oh God, I'm reading this, Ilike crime thrillers, or I'm
buying for a grandson orwhatever the hell it was.
It just started something goingand then take it from there.
That was the better way, in theUK anyway, I think actually
that would work in the U Sbetter Cause.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Then people would be, they'd feel understood, there'd
be some empathy.
Oh, totally understand, I havea grandson, or yeah, my friend
just went through that too, ifyou need you know.
At that point you're like, well, you got a great section on
something.
It also drives in command ofknowledge, and what I'm getting
at with with being with the ceois you made a good point to
(09:33):
recognize that's probably notgoing to work.
How?
I mean these, these uh,franchise type model us kind of
companies?
How?
How was that rub with them?
This, were they like do itanyway.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Yeah, I mean what they don't see, they don't know,
was the sort of rule.
And yeah, the look at thestores was pretty good.
The biggest difference I thinkthe best thing that we
transferred was the casualfriendliness to the punters
coming in the door, becausebookshops in the UK were often
(10:08):
like the sort of libraries yousee in 1950s movies, where it's
shh and the children were don'ttouch any of the books.
Whatever you do, you're likedon't put that coffee down,
whereas we're actually justsitting there going take, you
know, there's a Starbucks in thestore, take the coffee anywhere
you want, touch everything,play with everything, and
(10:30):
parents are going.
My God, I can bring my childrento a bookstore without being
out and wrecking the place andthe dwell time as a result was
much, much longer than withother bookstores.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Not dwelling on your original piece, but my
assumption is because I used togo to those bookstores just to
find the information I neededkind of pre-Google right and
just to find it, and then Iwould leave, but I'd almost
always buy a coffee.
I figured like that has to bethe model.
Is they just want you to buy acandy bar or a coffee?
Speaker 2 (10:59):
I wasn't sure.
I'm never sure whether it was ameasure of success or whatever.
Never sure whether it was ameasure of success or or
whatever, but often you find inthe books beside, beside the
coffee shop had bookmarks inthem sometimes.
So people obviously came thereevery day for lunch and went
right.
Okay, where was I?
Speaker 1 (11:14):
that's awesome.
Uh, so, moving past that, sothat was your first role.
Uh, interesting market, becauseit's.
It's a.
You know, it's hard to be in ashrinking market where, like,
like that's it's not that it'sgone away and it's not that it's
ever going to go away, but it'sthe horse.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
When the car came, yeah, I mean the book industry
has been interesting becauseit's been around for hundreds of
years.
But if you think about thephysical book, it wobbled a
little bit when e-books came in,but actually it's sort of
bounced back quite nicely in thelast few years and they
complement each other came in,but actually it's sort of
bounced back quite nicely in thelast few years.
They complement each other.
I think eBooks also don'treally make gifts in a very
(11:51):
friendly way giving someone afile or whatever.
It's not the same as a book.
Actually, production valueshave gone up and the physical
book is now on most people'ssort of Christmas list somewhere
.
So I think it's held up prettywell.
And actually I used to work atHMV, which is the biggest chain
(12:13):
of entertainment stores here,and certainly I've experienced
the digitization of the musicindustry and the film industry
as well and games, and I thinkthe book industry is relatively
done OK.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
You are so from that.
Right, that was your first one.
Take me through the next few,because what I want to set up
are kind of like yourcredentials of hey, you went
through that, didn't work, wentto this, didn't work, yeah, like
, take me through the CEOjourney.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
I guess the journey.
But just leading up to thatappointment was always.
I did psychology university, Idid a professional qualification
in hypnotherapy and it wasrelationships and why people
think and it was alwaysinteresting to me.
And then I ended up working inretail, which was in a company
(13:03):
that was.
We used to have a stamp whichwas actually literal, not just
metaphorical, which had JFDI on.
I don't know if everyone knowswhat JFDI stands for, but it was
just effing do it.
We were operationally excellent.
Things were implementedimmediately, but that was the
(13:23):
culture of that company.
Were implemented immediately,but that was the culture of that
company.
And then, moving intoWaterstones, the book chain,
suddenly 95% of the staff havegot university degrees and no
one's doing anything unless youexplain the rationale and they
agree with it.
And the JFDA stamp.
(13:44):
No one would have just pickedup sticks and walked out if you
treated them that way.
So, learning the cultures ofthe company, I worked in lots of
different departments and Ithink the breakthrough bit was
probably I was put in charge ofa project which computerized the
whole retail system, fromfinance to stock control, to
(14:06):
store tills, to everything, andit was like a major, major
project and it was critical forthe future of the company.
Suddenly we could run thingscentrally in a way that allowed
us to expand really quickly,whereas before it took years of
experience to put people in thestores, to understand how to run
a store.
And so it was a game changer.
(14:26):
And this suddenly gave meaccess to all the board, all the
departments, experience of allthe parts, how it all fit
together.
And, and to me the biggestinteresting thing around that
and I spent a lot of timetalking with people is the
different, that sort of journeyup the up the greasy pole, where
you are a specialist in a lotof cases but suddenly that
(14:50):
specialism you know, often inengineering companies, in
chemical companies, the bestchemist, the best engineers,
promoted and then suddenly is inmanagement and they're going
hang on, one, I'm no good.
Two, I don't want to do this.
I want to carry on with myresearch.
But management can be trained.
But I think no one talks aboutthe other side, where you're a
(15:11):
generalist and you're going Idon't have any specialist skills
, I'm a jack of all trades,master of none.
But actually, as you go up,what you need to understand is
being a generalist is in itselfa specialist skill well, I mean,
an effective manager isdefinitely a leader.
Yeah, certainly a skill, youknow, at the top of the top of
(15:32):
the tree you are, you are aconductor, you know, you've got
it.
You've got your, your alldifferent parts on the stage
around you, an orchestraconductor, and they've all got
their own characteristics.
You know the brass are totallydifferent to the strings and
whatever, but they all need tocome together and you provide
the score, the tempo, thepassion, the vision, and
(15:57):
actually you need to listen, youneed to trust, you need to
bring this together and actuallythe whole thing is about making
the sum of the parts greaterthan the individuals and,
interestingly for the CEO,they're the only one who
actually doesn't contribute tothe oral experience.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
It's an interesting analogy.
Keep the wrapper that keeps thepackage together, so to speak.
So you have the experience.
And along that journey, right,what would you tell your former
self Like?
What would you, right now,you'd say, all right, listen
well, how would you talk?
Differently about your, yourrole as a CEO or your?
Speaker 2 (16:33):
yeah, I mean it's usually, it's obviously that
accompanies the dips and and andthere was a couple of times
when I had I had was given arole after that project manager
thing, a role on the board asproduct director, sort of head
of buying and marketing on theboard, and that was a real
(16:56):
surprise to me and to everyoneelse.
So you accept that and go OK,I'm a bit of an imposter
syndrome but I'll manage this,it's great news.
Okay, I've a bit of impostersyndrome but I'll manage this,
it's great news.
But then is the dips.
When I was, uh, at one stage Iwas offered the first managing
director role, um, and this wasa sort of dinner behind the
(17:16):
scenes with the um, with thechair, and and it was all going
to be um confirmed in in twomonths time, after Christmas.
We'd been through a couple ofMDs that we brought in from
outside.
It hadn't worked and it wasdefinitely going to be your turn
, your time, and then, and so Ikept my nose clean and I was
(17:37):
told by sort of friends of thechair just don't put a foot
wrong, it's all going to happen,it's all looking good.
And then I had a meeting inJanuary.
I thought it was, I thoughtthis is it.
It's going to be confirmed, andthe guys I've changed my mind,
they're not going to give it toyou and some some strange
operational reasons which werewhich were, I realized later
irrelevant.
And I'm sitting there going howunfair is this?
(17:59):
And?
And so this was the first pointI really understood hang on
that.
You've got to deal with theperson in front of you, and
that's going to be verydifferent to how you deal.
There's no rule book for thisand for that particular person.
What they had wanted to see,without asking me or telling me,
was me to assume the role andactually fix things and take on
(18:25):
that leadership role in advance,without any confirmation,
whereas my advice I'd be givenwas do completely the opposite.
And so I spend a lot of timetalking to people who are
aspiring to be CEOs about don'twait to be given the stripes
before you assume the role.
You can make your own luck.
(18:47):
It's like waiting to be giventhe car keys to prove you can
drive.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
In that instance, though, you certainly have to
play the person, because theother person might be like
that's arrogant, he shouldn'thave done that.
And the next guy might be likehow did he not step up?
He was told Completely andutterly.
It's like you're the boardCompletely and Completely.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
And I think that whole transition piece is really
key to everything.
Mckinsey have a stat that theyquote, which is that a trillion
dollars of market cap is lostfrom Saturn and Paul's 1,500
companies on the basis of poorlymanaged transitions for CEOs
(19:25):
and C-suite people.
Every year, every year, raoulPAL every year.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Holy cow, you can quantify that it is McKinsey
MARK.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
BLYTH, MD, PhD.
It's a big number anyway, itrecognizes that the transition
is really badly planned.
I think when you go for the job, the key question everyone goes
, oh, can you do the job is thekey question, and I sort of
disagree on that because whenyou get to the final shortlist,
probably most people have theexperience and talent to be able
(19:56):
to do the job in some way,shape or form.
I think the real question iscan you be trusted to do the job
?
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Yeah, can you be the?
Speaker 2 (20:02):
job.
When you live there,particularly for the internal
candidate, you have the chanceto build that trust all the way
through the time you're there.
Do you show that you can takeon stuff outside of your comfort
zone and experience and do wellat it?
Do you show an interest in allthe departments and how it all
(20:22):
fits together?
Do you show that you accept andwelcome the tendencies for the
stuff that you haven and welcomethe tendencies, uh, for the
stuff that you haven't had to dobefore, which is so?
It's always this incredibleshock.
That's the first I've seen yougo.
Oh, my god, it's much moredifficult than I thought it was
going to be.
Um, so, so that?
So that can you be trusted?
I think is critical.
Um, but you know the.
(20:45):
I think once you've got the job,that transition piece, suddenly
they spend all their timeconcentrating on right, who are
we going to appoint?
Right, great.
And then suddenly it's right,here's the 100.
Where's your 100-day plan?
You're off and running at 100miles an hour.
You've got to tick, tick, tick,tick and actually it's building
the relationships around you,with your senior leadership team
(21:07):
, with the board above you,across the company, within the
industry.
It's all those relationshipswhich actually are going to
underpin whether you're going tobe successful or not.
Yes, you might tick off a coupleof things on your 100-day plan,
but if you haven't got everyoneon your side, the senior
leadership team is going to haveprobably one or two people
there going.
I should have got the job, butthey're giving you false signals
(21:29):
.
There's probably one or twopeople there going.
I should have got the job, butthey're giving you false signals
.
There's probably one personthere who should have been
jettisoned ages ago and theysuddenly see this as a new
opportunity, my final chance tosave my career.
So that'd be extra helpful,certainly on the surface.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
And that role-playing job the person who greets you
first is the most helpful is theone that ends up being the most
and the worst person for you.
I mean, without fail, that'sbeen my career.
The person was like kindest andlike most helpful.
Wants to take you to lunch.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
The first day is the one that was most threatened and
ends up yeah, they're at theend of the plank.
They shouldn't have walked agesago?
Speaker 1 (22:06):
generally they, they buried.
They've dug this six foot gravemultiple times and no one ever
pulled the trigger, right, yeah,absolutely so.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
So, yeah, I so I think I think that transition
piece is really reallyinteresting and and and you know
, you can make your own luck onthe way out I think it's it's
harder to um to instantly sortof like go right, this is my
culture, this is the way I dothings, particularly going
(22:34):
upwards as well as goingdownwards at the same time.
But you know, that's what acoach is there for, because you
can make it worse for yourselfIf you wear an armour of
impenetrability and sort of Iknow all the answers a mask that
says it also says to everyonedon't get in that person's way,
(22:55):
they don't want any help, youknow, don't question what
they're doing.
And so building thoserelationships are even more
difficult because you're makingit more difficult by having this
false front that says I knoweverything.
But the key to me and this isobviously where I got involved
was this coaching and mentoringcombination, where the
(23:18):
independence is the key, becauseyou need a safe space outside
of the confessional of the boardor whatever, to be able to say
look, I really don't know howthis works, or my boss is a
total and utter, whatever itmight be.
And actually, as a coach andmentor.
(23:40):
You can sometimes just sit inthere going so what are your
conversations like?
And you're acting like it'slike you've got a us plug and a
electrical plug and a uk socketand you and they can't talk to
each other and you're like theconnector in between that sits
there and says when he's sayingthat probably what he wants is
this, this, this.
When she's saying that and it'soften just a misinterpretation
(24:04):
and it might just be you knowyou're not giving enough or
you're giving too much, you'retaking too much time or you're
not decisive.
You know the acting astranslator is a big part of part
of the job too do you thinkthere's a space for?
Speaker 1 (24:15):
uh, I always wanted this, why it's in this day and
age now?
Uh, and this is a bigger companyceo kind of stuff, not like
you're.
You know, we can talk somesolopreneur stuff in a minute,
but if I was a new ceo in acompany for my leadership team,
given the fact that you have somuch technology at your hands,
I'd be like we're going to dosome personality tests and
really get anybody who can gameit and get an understanding of
all these people a little bitmore and then leverage a little
(24:36):
tech to be like who are thesepeople and how do I need to
interact with them.
I think this would be a gooduse for a CEO in the first few
days is to really leverage acoach to understand who the hell
they are actually dealing withand how to interact with them,
because, like you said, thestyle and the communication and
the intentions and themotivations for each of those
people it's incredibly complexand it's absolutely vital to
(24:59):
your success or failure.
Does that happen?
Is anybody actually doing that?
Where they're like they'reputting together?
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
I think so.
I mean, I think it does happenum a bit.
You know, I have there's somevery good, good tests, but
there's some, some, some youknow ones that are not so good
and ones that have been triedand tested for for many years
but actually they've probablydone their time.
You know, um, without dissinganything in particular, you know
some of them are much morecertainly with with my
(25:26):
background in psychology.
Some are more akin to astrologythan necessarily science.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
I was thinking like you have to go to Pisces.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Yeah, you're a Pisces , you'll be fine Stars man.
So yeah, I think.
But the problem is that there'sso many other variables rather
than just characteristics aswell, and you do learn that and
you give out the rope dependingon not only experience,
confidence, track record butactually how the people are
(25:57):
feeling on the day.
And if that's the span of theirjob, this bit over here they
might be really fine at givingthe rope, but that bit they need
some help.
So there's no, even within oneindividual there's different
balances.
But also the person you'retalking to today can be totally
different next week on the samesubject.
(26:18):
You know the boss who didn'tgive me the job.
He was very much a I rule onfear of the sack.
You know that's how I motivatethe company and he would
actually say that to everyoneand I was certainly on the end
of that more than once.
But I saw a string of thoughtthere.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Well, it was more of like when you get into the role
right is the world changes andthere's technology, and I was
just curious.
It's more of just like atangent little.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Sorry, sorry, sorry, I know where I was now.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Who you are from a like from a, from a yeah but,
but.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
But here you are.
As I say, changes because inthis, in the, in the, in the
fear, if you're in the fear ofthe sack mode, someone says in
charge of sales or something,the sales figures are coming in,
(27:14):
there's suddenly a dip in thesales.
The answer is not always right.
I'm just going to crack thewhip harder and apply the
bollocking until the sales comeback up and you suddenly need to
be able to have thoseconversations where you can get
to the cause, which might be.
Last week you thought this andwe agreed that.
This week you want someone tobe able to say actually, my dad
was diagnosed with parkinson'slast week.
I'm, I'm now primary caregiver,blah, blah, blah and.
(27:36):
And in our day you would neverhave brought that stuff up back
in the day with the fear of thesack.
You know this was a week thatwould be a weakness, and it's.
But actually these days it's avery different relationship that
you should have with your teamand it's all about getting the
best out of people as a teamtogether, rather than cracking
the whip to try and make surethat the tigers stay on their
(27:59):
seats around the ring.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
And this comes back to your first point about being
an effective CEO is thetransition, because that's still
a transition problem.
Right, you have old guard, newguard somewhere in between.
We used to do it this way, wealways do it this way and, like
you know, a good leaderrecognizes the state of the art
and the moment versus and who'sthere and who can and can't be
there, um, which which alwaysintroduces a whole lot of things
(28:24):
of like ageism and everythingelse.
Right, and there's also alsothis young groups are like, hey,
we still do things this way,but you don't want to work or
whatever it is.
Pivot the conversation a littlebit too, because we have a lot
of entrepreneurs, first-timeCEOs in their own company, and
they are truly figuring it outby themselves and they're adding
a team member and then maybethey're doing their first hires.
You want to give me like a listof cool advice of what you know
(28:45):
the best CEOs on the planet.
They all do X, y and Z.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
So you should too.
That's a really good questionand I think I often wrestle with
the difference betweenentrepreneurs particularly in
startups and corporate, andcertainly coaching and mentoring
.
I feel much I can coach in anyfield, in any industry, but
mentoring I feel morecomfortable in a corporate
environment because thoserelationship things are probably
(29:16):
more prevalent, whereas anentrepreneur has the
relationship issues pluseverything goes with trying to
keep the show on the road andkeep the cash flowing.
The show on the road and keepthe cash flowing.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
It's a different dynamic, but as they build their
teams and they become leaders,not being arrogant or a
know-it-all is probably a badability, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
I think it's knowing your limits.
I've chaired a couple ofstartups in my time and I've
just taken on the last threemonths chair of a new startup
and I'm really enjoying it.
But boy, it's exciting, boy,it's scary, boy, it's all those
(30:03):
things.
As a founder, if you're in astartup, you're generally a
founder on the basis of visionor tech skill or one thing or
the other, and maybe two out ofthree or four, but rarely you're
the complete package.
And it's understanding when tolet go.
(30:26):
Also, when to say no isdefinitely one thing.
When to pivot is probably themost important.
My vision was we were alwaysgoing to do this.
It was going to be a B2C thingand all the customers would love
us.
But hang on, suddenly, no,basically that hasn't worked.
You're running out of cash, youcan't develop it anymore, and
(30:52):
then suddenly you get abreakthrough moment and I and
I've I've actually seen, seenand delivered this um, where the
babe element goes, yeah, whatyou, what you've got, is is
interesting and our products forour products, but in a way that
that is is a marketing tool,not you're.
You're not going to be takingit to market.
You're not going to be sellingit to market.
You're not going to be sellingit, but I can see how you can
help us target consumers in away.
(31:13):
And suddenly you've got to tellthe CEO's, got to the founder's,
got to cope with my baby.
I've just been told my baby'sugly and that my baby needs to
have a big change.
That is going to go away fromthe dream I had for them, and
(31:37):
that's a very difficult thing.
Plus, also, they tend to thinkI always understood who our
consumer was, who our targetmarket was, and so therefore, I
actually now am an expert inthat market, as opposed to
surrounding myself with experts.
And you see it all the timewhere suddenly the plan's going
(31:58):
along, the plan's going alongand the expertise is brought in,
and suddenly the founder willgo I've got a great idea, let's
do this, this, this, andeveryone's looking around the
table, going really Sometimesit's genius, sometimes it's not,
and it's understanding that.
Okay, I'm one of those peoplewho I come up with 10 ideas a
day and nine of them are allbullshit, and I need to surround
(32:19):
myself with people who tell methe nine are bullshit, the one
may be brilliant, but I needhelp to filter the brilliant-.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
I mean, with those odds that's pretty good.
10% of your stuff's pretty good.
Let's probably say it's one outof 10,000.
Because the entrepreneurial ADDof all the CEOs I've ever met
is it's off the charts typically, and typically by the time
you've heard it, they'venarrowed it down to the top 100.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
But coming back to the first CEO within this
context is really interestingbecause one of the biggest
problems is you've been runningimportant departments or
important companies or whatever,particularly corporate world,
and suddenly you've gone to thisjob.
You've probably got two bosses,10 bosses on the board for the
first time.
But the real killer is you're.
(33:06):
You'll see that all theproblems you're brought to solve
, all the questions that come toyou, all the easy ones are done
.
All the nice ones they're done.
Everyone makes those becausethey're great.
You only get the shitty onesthat are difficult, painful and
give you the option to choosethe least bad one.
So everything you do has gotsome real angst and anger and
(33:30):
central downside andunpopularity to it and suddenly
you go.
Is this the fun bit?
Speaker 1 (33:39):
Is it?
I've had this debate with you,so I'll throw this.
We'll throw the turd on thetable.
See if anybody cleans it uphere.
Okay, the role of a CEO is tofocus on revenue today and then
revenue tomorrow.
Anything else that doesn'talign to that is just nonsense.
What do you think about thatstatement?
And is it too short?
Or is that summarized the roleof the CEO in its entirety?
Speaker 2 (34:09):
I guess it depends on your definition of tomorrow,
not today, not literally.
Tomorrow presumably.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Well, tomorrow meaning the future, or whatever
that is.
And right now, how are we goingto pay bills and how are we
going?
Speaker 2 (34:24):
to.
But it's interesting when youlook at politics everyone would
say the problem is in everyshort-term, as in the UK it's
five-year cycles.
In the US you got two years ofthe four where you're productive
, in the presidential race,whatever.
And in business shareholdersand funders it used to be that
(34:47):
well, it probably still is thecliche of saying what's in the
shareholder's interest, that'sreally the best thing, whether
that's the way to run thecompany.
What's in the shareholder'sbusiness interest is, as you say
, revenue and bottom line andactually trying to second guess
what's in the shareholders'interest can sometimes be
(35:11):
distracting.
You know that might be right.
We need to cut overhead andoften you know if finance people
are put in charge, cuts arealways popular.
You know growing is much moredifficult, but is that
necessarily the visionary way todo it, the inspirational way to
do it and actually how youtreat your people and how you
(35:33):
build your people and selfishly,having an accession plan for
yourself is really key to beable to move on.
Revenue ultimately is there andif you don't move forward
you're not standing still.
(35:54):
So I haven't heard that onebefore, so I haven't given it
any thought.
But I guess revenues ineveryone's interest.
Again the first time CEO,suddenly they go hang on.
I've got all these people I'mresponsible for and their
families and their livelihoods.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
I don't think most CEOs think that way.
I cause, because it would belike cause the cuts are the cuts
and they get.
People get are gone too easilyfor that kind of thing.
Like maybe that you?
I used to think people are likeno, it's numbers, You're a
number.
I'm also a little more negativetowards that just because I've
been through that and otherpeople have too.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
But the CEO's role as a front man is a really
interesting thing, and that'sthe same with founders and
entrepreneurs, probably evenmore so, and arguably, it's much
easier to get a following as anindividual than it is as a
brand.
And if you look at brands, howmany followers does a brand have
(36:48):
versus the figurehead?
You know, if you look at aBezos versus Amazon or Musk and
Tesla and so on and so forth,the individual is everything,
and actually that means not onlypride in working for a company,
but also the ability to attractthe best talent.
You may not have the samerevenue, but that's the person I
(37:10):
want to work for.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
Give me your flagship story of the CEO that you
helped turn it around or becomesuccessful.
I always call it your sellingstory.
By the way, everyone, this isour precursor to the shameless
plug for his book and services.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Hey, you've got to have shameless plug the I don't
know People who got on to becomepharma were successful as me
and who I now try and tap up forinvestment when I join other
companies.
I think it's more moments whereyou start off with someone.
(37:49):
There was one person I workedwith.
She was a first time CEO andshe would say in one breath I'm
crippled by fear.
Every day I go to work and then20 minutes later when you're
saying, who's the best personyou've ever worked for?
And then she'd say, oh well, Ihaven't worked with anyone who I
haven't overtaken within threemonths.
(38:10):
And you sit there and go, godboy, and within half an hour
you've got this sort of basketcase of imposter syndrome to
this incredible, all-conqueringsort of confidence.
And how do you take that personto becoming a more balanced
(38:31):
person?
Because actually you know,eight or nine out of 10 people
leaders do have doubts abouttheir abilities and experience.
It's the one out of 10 whodoesn't.
That I'm more worried about.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Who makes a better CEO, a man or a woman?
Speaker 2 (38:48):
Personally, I've enjoyed working for women more
than I've enjoyed working formen.
Working for men purely becauseit's the, the, the game they're
playing is success for thecompany at revenue in whatever
or whatever measure you choose,and and and that's what.
What the subject is is you'retalking about the majority of
the time with men I've seenworking for, for some big, bold
(39:12):
characters, and you get that inin retail, the, the um, and
certainly retail in the 90s orwhatever, and early 2000s, there
was a lot of ego, there was alot of testosterone.
There was a lot of other stuffgetting in the way potentially
of of making, uh, making theright collective decisions to,
(39:33):
to, to the success of everyone.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
Okay, loaded question who makes a better CEO a
Republican or Democrat?
Don't answer that, I'm justmessing with you.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
I wish I knew more about US politics.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
We're messing with technology right now.
When you, when did you writethe book and what I mean?
I'm I could I maybe guessed theinspiration on it, but you know
what was the moment?
Like I got to write a bookabout this, like do you have the
book you want to show?
It.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
Yeah, it's called become a successful first time
CEO.
It's available on amazoncom andit's, it's.
It's, it's mainly I probablyput it as many anecdotes and
true stories and whatever in it,because to me they um that that
(40:20):
stories make you give youemotions and actually it's
people remember how they feel,not not the bullet points on on
page 38.
So, uh, my, my, it's about,about relationships.
There's no, not necessarily somany right wrongs or how to's.
My editor described it more as awhy-to book rather than a
how-to book and, as I say, lotsof stories on how to get it
(40:43):
wrong.
Some are quite amusing and thebest review I had was from a CEO
who read it and said you know,most business books don't have
the ability to become a genuinepage turner, but this one does
so I took that as a compliment.
Don't don't have the uh abilityto become a genuine page turner
, but this one does, so I tookthat as a compliment.
Uh, maybe it's.
It means it's slightly flippantfor, um, for the business
community, who, people whodevour business books?
(41:05):
I'm not I'm not a a devotee ofreading business books the whole
time.
I love reading fiction.
I think you learn as much aboutthose relationships and those
characters and empathizing anddiversity.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
So some of those big business books are fiction?
Yeah, that's for sure.
They've never been on the show.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
I mean, I originally became a coach actually to
become a better nonic.
When I moved, when I leftcorporate life, I became a
consultant and then movednaturally from consultancy into
non-exec, director and thenchair roles.
I did the coaching course thenbecause I thought the, the, the
ability to question, ask goodquestions to, to support, to
(41:50):
challenge and so on and so forthwe're the same for the non-exec
and um and chair roles.
As it is is within coaching, um, but then it was the, it was
the melding, the mentoring.
That was the key thing.
Because I had I had a coachwhen I was the first.
I see you're incredibly helpful,but sometimes you're just going
, oh, just tell me what to do,and you and you're busy people
(42:12):
see it as a busy people.
So so the coach's in theregoing no, no, no, you have to
come get, you have to arrive atit yourself.
What else could you do?
You sit there, I've got fivefucking minutes, sorry, I've got
five minutes.
You know, before the wall, wallcomes down, you know what would
you do.
And the coach would sit theregoing no, no, but a coach with a
mentor.
What I found and this is reallyinteresting the, the.
(42:33):
If, if a CEO was completelystuck, I would say OK, let me
just tell you something thathappened to me which has some
similarities.
And he started to tell you somestory blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah.
Within about 30, 40 secondsthey would suddenly go stop.
Something you just said clickedin my head and I could see a
(42:54):
way forward in my own thing.
And and the first time ithappens you go and you know
there's, there's, there aresciences around changing the
framework and so on, so forth,but it's, but to me it's.
You know they're surrounded bythese problems.
We've been talking about them,they're surrounded by them, but
you can't see the answer yourown problems.
In the same way you can seeanswers to other people's
problems, but as soon as I Istart saying, well, this is what
(43:15):
happened to me, they switchinto problem-solving mode
because they're listening to you, and suddenly this lightning
connection is made between them,suddenly being in
problem-solving mode but stillbeing surrounded by their own
problems, and suddenlyeverything's much clearer.
And that is every time thathappens, and it happens all the
time.
It's no coincidence, it is likea magic moment.
(43:35):
That is to me that the happiestthing, rather than necessarily
seeing every time that happens,it's a breakthrough moment you
know, you're, uh, you're doingthe jesus technique.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
You're just talking in parables and people go I get
it.
And so you just, should we justsay jesus, david roach, I mean
david well, let's just see if Ican change this something more
interesting.
I don't think that was in yourbook.
Okay, you heard David said he'sdefinitely.
Are you drinking gin?
Is that gin?
What is?
Speaker 2 (44:02):
that, no, no, no, I've just converted this from
water into wine.
It's fine.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
Uh-huh, it's a gin.
You know the Brits love what itis.
Gin's horrible, it's like it'slike drinking in a pine cone.
I don't get it anyway.
Oh, I don't drink but I used totrust me.
I've done plenty of it.
But if alcohol chasted like gin, I would have never drank.
Okay, let me pivot a questionhere.
So in your, you're on thisjourney of uh, being a coach and
(44:28):
or a mentor now, and I think Ithink mentor is in coach or kind
of one in the same.
Um, it depends on who'sconsuming right the piece.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
Yeah, you dial it up and down.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
Yeah, there's lead and then there's teach right
Like, do this, stop doing that?
Like corrections, that'scoaching.
And then what would you do here?
Is mentoring right Based onsituations, because you might
not even know the answer, youjust know how to get it out of
them.
Talk about your business.
So other coaches that are outthere listening and people who
are learning to grow what waskind of hard about you making
that transition to coach, mentorand what's been going on since?
Speaker 2 (45:03):
I mean, to be honest, I still am chair of two
companies.
I chair London Book Fair, whichis the biggest annual book fair
in the world in the first halfof the year, and I chair a
startup and I act as.
So I still do work over andabove to keep my hand in, if you
(45:24):
like, as well as the coaching,so I only have time to work with
so very intensely with four orfive new CEOs.
So to me, I haven't had to justjust do that, um, you know, to
the exclusion of everything else, and I think that's been quite
important for me because it'shelped me um sort of understand
(45:49):
the urgency and relevance,because I'm still experiencing
it myself, um, so the I don'tknow the I think that I I'd like
to answer you in a parable, ifthat's okay I mean, that's what
jesus would do basically wherethe coaching and mentoring thing
clicked with me.
I I love scuba diving.
(46:09):
I've dived all over the worldand I did a free dive.
I'm probably too old for it,but I did a free diving course
no, no tanks or whatever a fewyears ago and and I wanted to
have a, a trainer, a teacher whohad done you know, knew exactly
what they were talking about.
So I I didn't run out of airwhen I'm sort of right
(46:30):
underwater and and and andbreathe wrong or and potentially
do myself a lot of damage orworse.
So they needed to know theirshit.
But also on the first one, Irealized, my God, you know,
shoved in a pool, holds yourbreath.
How long can you hold yourbreath?
You go 30 seconds, 40 seconds,whatever it is, and they're
sitting there, going, okay, andyou're going.
(46:53):
I can't do it for any longer.
And they're going, it's amazing.
And you're going, I can't do itfor any longer.
And they're going, it's amazing.
So a little bit of learning onthe chemistry of oxygen, et
cetera and the physics of howyou breathe, plus the killer is
knowing you've got theselimiting beliefs and coaching
you around them Within two hours.
I'm holding my breath for threeand a half minutes and you're
(47:14):
sitting there going jeez, withinhours I'm, I'm diving down to
25 meters and it's just like,and you've seen again, this is
insane and so, and that that waswhen I was suddenly went my god
, this coaching and mentoringcombination is, is the absolute
winner.
You know, I, I genuinely thinkit can produce extraordinary
(47:35):
things and, and certainly, if itjust been the coaching about
the limiting beliefs andeverything else, that then I, I
don't think, oh, my brainwouldn't have said I don't trust
this person enough to be ableto do it or don't trust myself,
whereas the mentoring went.
These people really know theirshit as well.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
They've been there, done it themselves and if they,
you know, if you get a littletoo confident on that dive, you
go brain dead, which is great,yeah, so just know that and then
coachingly.
Speaker 2 (48:01):
But if that happens, you don't have to worry about
anything after that.
Speaker 1 (48:03):
Yeah, you're over at that point.
Um, just conscious of time.
So how do you want people like,first of all, who, who's the
ideal person, who should get ahold of you and where do you
want them to go, do that?
Speaker 2 (48:13):
yeah, I, I, I, md, phd, phd, mph.
I would say and it's maybeslightly disappointing for your
audience if they're pureentrepreneurs and at the
beginning of their own journeyas a startup person.
I think I wouldn't count myselfas a massively experienced over
(48:34):
decades within the startuparena, but I think the
principles are the same.
I've certainly haven't had anyproblem changing and moving
around different sectors.
I think within largercorporates, it's people who run
big departments at a C-level andare aspiring to be a first-time
(48:57):
ceo or first-time ceosthemselves.
I think you know when we lookat, when we.
If I was to look at the thefuture and leave a legacy, um, I
would say that every singlefirst-time ceo should it should
be compulsory that they'reassigned an independent coach
(49:18):
and mentor.
Absolutely.
I'm very passionately aboutthis, because why wouldn't you?
Even if you take look at it inits cheapest way and say it's an
insurance policy againstfailure, you've got this person
coming going, coming in going.
I'm going to be found out.
They're going to.
They all want me to fail,mentality to, to suddenly hang.
I'm getting all the supportthey could possibly give me to
(49:39):
make this win because everyonewants it to succeed.
Why wouldn't they?
That mind shift is amazing.
So I think anyone who has thatdoubt, who wants to know more
about making their own luck andthen how to manage that
transition.
But the other thing for thefuture is and you see it all the
time, coaching can be seen as asign of weakness.
(50:02):
I need a coach, I'm afirst-time CEO and everyone goes
really, oh, we thought we hadhired someone who had all the
answers.
It's not really how it works.
And actually, the mostexperienced people if you look
at sports people, greatest ofall time at what they do the
Tiger Woods, the Djokovic,federer choose your name.
They understand that having andit may not even be a coach, it
(50:25):
may be the mentor, someone whooffers them independent,
unconditional personal supportto make them as the best they
can possibly be.
They all have it.
You know, there's never onesense of going.
I know it all, I've seen it alland actually I've got it in
here so sorted that I don't needany help.
(50:45):
That's right.
So you see the best and mostexperienced CEOs with their own
coaches and mentors.
And it's a debate, it's adiscussion and that's the thing
about coaching.
Speaker 1 (50:58):
You've got to learn to um, and the mentoring helps
to be equals no, you've got tohave that credibility to be
equals you know, uh, the reasonI have the community of cut the
tie, the mastermind and stuff,is because you need that.
You know, our idea is pay itnow so you get an hour.
Someone's time you give an hour.
The reason is because you needsomeone to.
You know, our idea is pay itnow, so you get an hour.
Someone's time you give an hour.
The reason is because you needsomeone to say that's not how it
(51:19):
works.
I'm not trying to sell anything, just this is what you do,
period.
And the reason is because thathelps people get, you know,
surround themselves with peoplewho don't have a vested interest
in them failing or succeeding,just giving them knowledge and
direction as a starting point.
And I think coaching is.
I mean, I've never had a coach.
I've met very few people Iprobably would hire, and the
times I could hire them Icouldn't afford them.
(51:39):
So there's that.
But just conscious of time, Iwant to thank you for coming on.
I think you have a wealth ofknowledge and you have many,
many leather-bound books behindyou.
So anybody who has that manybooks probably read at least 12
of them, and that's more thanmost.
David, thank you for coming ontoday.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
Absolutely a pleasure .
I really enjoyed theconversation.
Speaker 1 (52:01):
You'd be a very fun person to get a drink with.
I can tell that it's getting alittle later in the day, so he's
already hit the gin bottle.
It was water, but get a hold ofhim at grayareacoachingcom.
David, I'm going to put you inthe periwinkle room here and
I'll be right back, but thankyou yeah, N-B-G-R-E-Y for
Americans, not G-R-A-Y.
We'll put it on G-R-E-Y.
You should probably buy the.
(52:25):
G-R-A-Y it's a very good point.
The first test I can work withDavid is can you spell gray?
All right, I'll be right back.
Thank you so much for joiningme today.
If this was your first timelistening and being here, I
really appreciate you getting tothis point.
And if you've been here before,thank you for coming back.
You know we're on the missionto help entrepreneurs get better
entrepreneurship and in doingso, you'll get better at life.
(52:48):
You know, get coaches, findsupport, get groups, join
communities whatever it takes tobe successful and to be better
(53:09):
at what you do and better atlife.
Uh, that's what we're all aboutand I I appreciate you
listening and getting this point, but until we meet again uh,
thanks for listening to thenever been promoted, thank you.
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