May 8, 2025 • 41 mins
Marcus Peet, Senior Director of Information Security at PT Solutions, shares his unique perspective as both a cybersecurity expert and father of three on navigating the complex world of digital parenting. His "growth with guardrails" philosophy demonstrates how parents can protect their children online while allowing them the freedom to develop necessary digital literacy skills.
• When children should get their first phone (Marcus recommends age 13, but with flexibility based on family circumstances)
• Smart alternatives like GPS watches for younger children who need location tracking
• Understanding the hidden costs of giving children smartphones, particularly the time investment
• Tools for monitoring children's devices including Bark, Family Link, and built-in parental controls
• Creating accounts properly within family ecosystems rather than standalone accounts
• The importance of establishing trust while still verifying children's activities
• Balancing protection with independence to avoid children seeking workarounds
• Navigating platforms like Roblox safely through supervision rather than prohibition
• Recognizing generational communication differences (like how a thumbs-up emoji can be perceived as passive-aggressive)
• Practical strategies for verifying online friends' real-world identities
Remember, the phone is a privilege, not a right. Be transparent about monitoring with your children while still giving them space to make small mistakes and learn from them.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm going to start calling you the executive senior
director of informationsecurity, dad in chief and
because and I think that dad isthe most important title in that
string, so I really appreciateyou coming and sharing your
thoughts as a father, as asecurity professional, on
cybernomics.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Well.
Thank you, josh.
I appreciate the opportunity tocome on your show.
I'm a fan and so being able tobe on this side of the instead
of just listening is phenomenal,and I appreciate you giving me
the opportunity.
Yes, as you, as you mentioned,I'm the Senior Director of
Information Security at BTSolutions and we are a
nationwide physical therapypractice, so we have many
(00:41):
different clinics.
Generally, in some areas, wepartner with the local hospital
in that area to provide physicaltherapy to patients in that
market, next to within a certainradius of that major hospital
system, and in other areas weare an ambulatory clinic.
What that means is we are notassociated directly or attached
to a hospital.
We're kind of like a standalone.
(01:01):
You'll find this next to Publixor next to Food for Less or
something along those lines.
We have our own storefrontoperation where you can come get
physical therapy local to you.
Currently we're in 25 statesacross the US.
We are not international and mygoal is to ensure that one.
I evangelize security.
I love to promote security.
(01:22):
It fascinates me, it excites me, it does.
It's what got me into, kind ofwhere we're headed to today with
today's conversation, whichstarted me down that path, and
my goal is.
I see myself as a facilitator,and growth with guardrails is
kind of what my.
If I had a catchphrase, thatwould be what the catchphrase is
.
I want to facilitate what we'retalking about, but let's put it
(01:42):
within certain parameters andlet's move forward together.
Because I'm a father of three,what were the challenges that I
had?
Teaching them and growing upmyself, maturity wise and
maturing in my profession,maturing in my parenting,
maturing as an individual andwhen I saw what things were
happening and as I prepared myown children, and listening to
(02:03):
other parents.
There was something about howdo I take my knowledge.
I was blessed to be able tounderstand technology, build
technology, work with technologyas my career.
In the Marine Corps I was acommunications technician, so
means short, long way to say.
I followed five volts around amotherboard pretty well right
and made sure that that was good.
And when you have that in-depthknowledge and you take it to
(02:25):
someone who spent as equalamount of time just on whatever
profession they are a doctor whospent years longer than I did
learning their profession, or atax accountant, or just somebody
who's not necessarilytechnology focused from their
onset how do I help them do thesame thing that I did and not
have their children.
Because the one thing we havein common, the common
(02:45):
denominator, is we were parentsand we want to protect our
children, we want to protect theenvironment that they're in,
protect our family members,protect our parents, who are not
necessarily as technologicallysavvy as we may be or we
consider ourselves to be.
So, as we think about all ofthose things, how does that help
?
And that's where my heart kindof went into and brought me into
(03:07):
cybersecurity.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Before you became a dad, did you see this problem in
terms of protecting our kidsand sort of the personal side of
security, or is this somethingthat changed?
The moment you held your firstkid in your arms, did your
priorities as a parent and as aprofessional shift.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
So for me I'm going to say yeah, it became apparent
when I became a father and forme, I became a father when I got
married.
My oldest son.
I don't consider him my stepson, I've never referred to him as
my stepson but technically, if Ifill out a legal paperwork,
he's my stepson, right?
It wasn't until theresponsibility of something,
(03:52):
someone other than myself, andthe realization that I am the
one that has to do this, thatthe protective mode and the
thoughts behind how do I do that?
And then, because I'm in thetechnology field and electronics
field, how do I do thatelectronically?
They're going to feed off of me.
I was, I'm been a gamer sincethe very first Nintendo and I
(04:13):
had an Atari.
So I'm growing up with all ofthat in the house and doing
things.
The Commodore 64 was the veryfirst computer I played.
Karateka was the very firstgame I played.
So the evolution of video gamesand things and bringing
technology within the home andthe advances that were making
technology more accessible,coupled with this jumps in
(04:34):
technology to keep up with it, Irealized my children wanting
these things, wanting theseareas.
We went through the VTech IOphase.
You know we went through thisNintendo Wii phase and all of
these things.
The fatherhood itself propelledthe thoughts behind protection
and it stemmed from how do Imake sure my children are safe?
(04:55):
How do I make sure I providethe best for them?
How do I monitor what it isthey're doing so I can make that
decision?
And I want to say I was not ahelicopter parent at first, but
I became a helicopter parent, atleast in the logical space,
Once we started seeing just howmuch of the world opened up.
When I was growing up, it wasAOL and you had to dial in and
(05:18):
you had to make sure you had aset up for phone line.
Was there were dangers andthings like that then?
But the prevalence and thespeed of which technology and
the ability to have it withinyour fingertips, and the amount
of danger that can bring orpresent to an unknown or naive
individual, how do we help them?
Speaker 1 (05:37):
understand that.
I think that's a really goodpoint, and we can start there
and see where it goes Protectingyour kids.
And it starts with the devices.
The devices, yes, let's talkabout the devices.
Okay, the phone being the maindevice.
How old do you think a kidshould be before they have their
first phone, and why?
Speaker 2 (05:58):
From my perspective and within our household, we
said that when you became a teen, the word teen was in your age.
That is when you came aboutLegally speaking.
That's also where COPPA comesinto play, because that's where
you have to be 13 to have aFacebook account or an Instagram
account or be able to makedecisions in the Apple iTunes
(06:19):
store.
So you have the federal lawthat says 13.
But for us, being a teen,because in elementary school, we
didn't feel that our childrenneeded to even worry about that
when you had an iPad, it wasgoverned and the technology was
there.
But when our children for uswhen I talk about us, I mean
myself and my wife ourphilosophy has always been the
(06:39):
phone is a privilege, it is nota right.
It is not a right.
The phone itself is somethingthat you use, not just to chat
with your friends and play games, but it needs to be productive,
because our goal was to teachthem how to integrate it and
become better with thetechnology, which is kind of
helping with that going forward,and they became roughly around
(07:01):
middle school age and they werestarting to do things like stay
after school for certain items.
That's where we would come intoplay what we did for my
daughter when she was younger.
The funny story and what kindof sparked, you know, kicked us
off a little into higher gear.
We were walking through themall, we were discussing this
exact topic Do we get ourchildren a cell phone?
And we said no, we don't wantto do it.
She was five or six at a time.
(07:22):
We were discussing going toDisney World for the first time
as a family it was my thank yougift to my family for following
me around the world being in themilitary and we're walking
through the mall and we walkedpast.
We were actually at the Verizonkiosk counter and we're talking
with the representative andthey're giving us options and
we're discussing it.
We looked down and mydaughter's gone.
She had walked away and we werelooking around.
(07:44):
Where in the world could shehave gone?
And we looked ahead and all ofa sudden we see this little girl
talking to this carousel rider,because there happened to be a
carousel in the mall.
It was like just horsies andriding up and down.
She had wanted to go.
We said, no, we'll get there ina minute.
Well, while we were talking,she took the opportunity to go.
(08:04):
At that point it was okay, howin the world cause we didn't
believe in like having abackpack with the leash or you
know the tethering or any ofthat stuff, right?
So how do I keep track of mychild in this situation and
knowing that we're getting readyto go to somewhere, that her
attention is going to be grabbedin almost the exact same
fashion and we have no idea, howdo we try to help with that?
(08:25):
So it was at that moment thatthe for younger children between
uh, old enough to tell time andunderstand what's on their
wrist to you know 13, when theyget a phone, was the wristwatch.
So we got her immediately, gother one of those watches that
she could make uh calls on, butfor us it had a GPS tracker,
right.
So there's that line that wehad.
(08:46):
But it became very real for usthat technology needed to be
there to help us in this age andwe didn't have that growing up.
But now that we do, how do weleverage it?
And that's the story of howcell phones came about in our
family and when we switchedproviders, the story of how cell
phones came about in our familyand when we switched providers,
(09:07):
the new provider didn't havethe watch.
So we did get her a phone itwas before the age, but that was
only because they didn't havethe watch, because there were so
many advantages to having thewatch that we loved as a parent,
and balancing protection versusindependence and ability, or
the thought of the child feelingempowered and feeling like
(09:28):
they're not behind, or gettingmade fun of because now you'll
get.
We got bullied for having XJ900s from Walmart instead of
having some Nikes when I wasgrowing up and you didn't have a
starter jacket because you hadto have the Charlotte Hornets
starter jacket or else youweren't cool, even if you
weren't a Charlotte Hornets fan.
But now they get bullied foranything and everything and the
access to being bullied iseverywhere.
So how do you make sure?
(09:48):
When you take that into account?
It's like all these politicaldynamics that you would never
even think or consider growingup.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
What are the hidden costs of getting a cell phone?
Speaker 2 (10:00):
The biggest one is going to be time, if I you know,
when you think about it,because while you don't have to
spend the time and I'm notsaying you need to become, you
know, the cybersecurityprofessional in order to do this
it does take time to understandwhat's going on.
With every generation, there'sgoing to be a translation of
languages.
There was a movie I can'tremember what the name of it was
(10:22):
, but the father was father wasin there and the iMessage was
connected to the computer andthey were trading pictures and
it was about they saw theeggplant with the water symbol
and all of those types of things.
How do you understand what thechild is communicating with?
To them, it's second nature.
To you it's a foreign language.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
By the way, if you're listening to this and you don't
know what the eggplant with thewater emoji is, Google it.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Yes, yes, don't, don't, don't and don't Google it
at work.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Don't Google it at work Right?
Don't Google it at work.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
So you have from going and understanding how
they're communicating to whatthey're communicating with, and
so there's the app stores are soplentiful with all these
different types of applications.
So understanding what is thecommon denominator and how do
you just monitor that and thenthinking about what it is you
want to do as a parent.
(11:17):
The most important thing when Iteach classes to parents is I
tell you how I did it.
You may not agree, and you andyour spouse may not agree, with
the methods that my me and myspouse did to raise our children
and the things and rules thatwe set, but understanding what
those are for your householdbecause it takes a united front
(11:37):
to be that proactive, becausethere are things that I didn't
know or I couldn't see or thatmy children would talk to my
wife about you have to.
It becomes a parenting tool.
So there again, all of thosecome to time and that's the one
thing that when I talk to peopleis that they don't have enough
of, which is why we've got AI,we've got microwaves and we've
(11:59):
got TikToks that are only thislong and tweets that can only be
140 characters.
Everything is about the amountof time and consumption of
information into a distinctsmall micro sessions that I can
get and they're impactful.
So, when you think about all ofthose things, couple that with
the generation that's growing up.
Time is going to be what youneed to invest, more than actual
(12:19):
dollars Now.
Dollars are going to be veryhelpful.
They will help support the time, but time is going to be very
helpful.
They will help support the time, but time is going to be your
hidden cost.
And the biggest time isunderstanding your child, I
would think, Because when youthink about how your child
thinks, processes, information,learns things curious about what
(12:40):
is in their nature as theparent, that translates into
their online activity.
It translates into what you'reseeing.
It translates into wherethey're going.
What sort of things are yougoing to find?
Because when you invest thedollars into things like a
centralized area, you'remonitoring your gateway for
websites and things that they'regoing to, whether it be on
their phone, their TV, theirsmart device, their iPad, their
(13:02):
game system, their computer, Ifthey have a computer, a
Chromebook, if they have aChromebook for school.
All of these things connect tothe internet and all of them can
be accessed and utilized invarious different ways.
When you invest in it andyou're looking at the history or
the activity, or you invest insome software that monitors
their devices and you're lookingat the activity.
Do you know your child?
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Because at that point comes into play.
Hey, marcus, just real quick.
What kind of software areparents putting on their phone?
I wasn't even aware until youjust said that that there's
software that you can put onyour kid's phone.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Oh man there is a whole world out there, and does
it matter whether?
Speaker 1 (13:42):
they have an iPhone versus an Android.
I feel like Android would bemuch easier.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
It does, it matters very much.
Google, I think, does a verygood job for the age range of, I
would say, you know, zero to 13, right, and they have Family
Link and, in my opinion, familyLink I like that because it
takes over the device that youput it on and because it's
agnostic.
I can get a Motorola, whateverAndroid device.
(14:09):
You have to create a separateaccount that takes over the root
administrative function of thatdevice and they can't do
anything unless you authorize it.
Now Apple has something similar, but we've seen articles where
the privacy settings and otherthings.
Apple is more towards empoweringthe individual.
Depending on the age of theindividual, so privacy is very
(14:30):
important to them as a whole,and so, when it comes to
parenting, that can get in theway of you trying to make sure
your child is monitored, if youwant to go that route, of course
, but when they get after 13 andthey start to get into social
media, there are a lot ofdifferent tools out there, but
software is one of them, the oneI like the best of.
What we use was Bark, and Barkessentially creates a VPN from
(14:53):
the device so it monitors alltraffic and things from there,
but then it also, it's analways-on VPN, but then it
connects to all of their socialmedia accounts and it combs all
of the activity that's done onthese various different
activities and then it distillsit down to something that you
read that's relevant.
So you're talking about a wholeconversation that's 15 pages
(15:13):
long, but the only quote unquotepart that she was concerning,
they put into like five linesyeah, let's highlight every time
the word boy was mentioned.
You know.
So if that's, if that's aconcern, right, you can get that
information.
And this is when the technologyfirst came out and when it
presented it to you, it saidhere's why it's concerning, but
(15:37):
ultimately, here's how you havea conversation with your child
about this.
Concerning content Wow.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
When I teach classes.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
I give examples out of my account where my middle
son helped avert a suicideattempt and it was only in text
message and he knew exactly whatto do and it told us hey, you
know, this is what your son did,and we actually just let it
play out through the barkmessages and he went and told
the principal, we got the child,the child that was having the
issue, we got them some help andhe did all of that and we just
(16:07):
watched it play out.
We didn't have to intervene.
But when you start doing thosethings and understanding what
those tools are and how they'reable to present that information
to you, there's embark is justthe one that I so happen to use.
Embark is advanced.
They've got, I think, a routernow and they've got their own
Android phone now.
So there's a bunch of differentthings that you can do as a
parent.
But I also install things likeBitdefender, which is my
(16:30):
antivirus.
The antivirus application has aparental control app, so now I
have antivirus on my device Ifthey're on my daughter's
computers.
Microsoft has family safety.
I use family safety to getactivity tracking, log tracking.
How long are they using thatlaptop?
For?
When you go into Google, youcan have the family link device,
when it connects to all theirdevices, gives you the same
(16:51):
information.
I can actually schedule time onand off.
So that's what the software isfor.
To an adult it's the equivalentof like a key logger.
It's from a cyber securityperspective, it's a key logger.
It's a tattletale software.
Tattleware is what it's calledthe.
You know, that's where peoplecame up with inventions of
putting the mouse, laser mouse,on the ticking watch so it
(17:12):
records movement.
So it's like there and thebubble never goes green or never
goes red or yellow.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Oh, yeah, so it's.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
You know those types of things.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
I discovered that way too late, after I had been
working remote for like threeyears.
A friend of mine was like yeah,you can just like put that on
this thing and I'm just likeyou're never going to go red and
I'm like where were you?
I've known you for three years.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
You should have led with that.
It's funny.
But yeah, there's just so muchyou can do.
And it's also there's a lotthat they can do.
Yeah, like hiding apps how doyou know where to go?
So identification all the wayaround.
But yes, there are plenty ofapplications that you can put on
devices, and there are Androidversions as well as iPhone
versions.
You can put on devices andthere are Android versions as
(17:59):
well as iPhone versions.
To your point, the Androidversion may have a little bit
easier time because it's a morewide, open ecosystem and it's
open source by nature, sothere's a little bit more for it
there.
But within the Apple ecosystem,they do a great job of the
parental controls within theApple app software itself, the
native Apple software, and thenyou can add apps on top of that.
That work, integrate withwhat's already being done, so
(18:23):
the same information can begleaned from both, because both
organizations at that levelunderstand that they want to
help protect and give you thetools as a parent to do
something about.
I am an Android household, I'mnot an iHousehold, but I'm not
going to bash either one.
I think if, depending on whichecosystem you're in, there are
tools that are going to be thereand applications and software
you can get that give you thesame or similar amounts of
(18:46):
information to do what you'retrying to do and protect and
raise your child.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
For parents who are about to embark on that journey
very scary giving their childtheir first phone what are like
one, two, three things that theycan do to make sure, right out
of the gate, that they're atleast like 60% covered?
Speaker 2 (19:08):
You want to make sure that in, like the Apple world,
don't create a separate accountat the base level.
You want to create an accountfrom within the family setting
so that it's not because if youcreate a standalone one, it
takes all the rights andprivileges therein of the
privacy settings and otherthings from a standalone I
(19:29):
account.
And you'd be surprised.
You may think well, I just needto know the password and the
authentication comes to my phone.
Your child will figure out howto circumvent.
I guarantee you you will neverknow it and it'll be four years,
five years old and they willhave already reset and bought 15
things with plenty of storiesabout that.
Right.
So make sure, because when youdo it from inside, it creates
(19:50):
inherent permissions and blocksat the software operating system
level, if you will, of thatdevice.
That is not present when you doit from a standalone account.
So on the Apple side you can doit from there.
On the Google side it would beFamily Link.
That's what that does it foryou there.
But that would be the firstthing is create those accounts
so that you have and you protectyourself and the biggest thing
(20:13):
is from charges.
There are some places where achild finds a game and they make
it so easy to hit that buttonto start buying.
I want to buy the tickets.
I want to play Candy Crush.
I need to get past this level.
I'm going to keep buying.
It's not charging me.
That account is charged to yourApple Card or whatever it is
you have as a parent.
Now you've got a $7,000 billand you're trying to figure out
how did I rack up in Candy Crushand there's just plenty of
(20:37):
spoilers about it.
It's so much easier than youthink, oh my gosh.
And they make it.
So they hit that nerve centerof the brain that says I need to
do this, so your child?
When you create the accountsthat way, those blocks are
inherent and, from acybersecurity protection
perspective, the not safe forwork sites, the nefarious things
(20:58):
when they click an ad that's abad ad, that does pop-ins or
tries to download software,malware, phishing those things
are built into those areas whenyou do it from that standpoint.
So understanding how to getstarted is probably the first
thing.
The next thing I would say isthink about, have a conversation
and understand which technologyyou're going to go with.
(21:19):
Are you an Apple household?
What are my tools with Apple?
Are you a Google household?
What are my tools with Google?
If Microsoft decides to getback into the device biz, what
are my tools with Microsoft?
Because they will havesomething.
And how does it?
You know, does it mesh with theway that I want to raise my
child?
And that's what you'rebalancing that with, because
(21:42):
technology can be made to dowhat you need it to do and there
are ways to do what you need todo in either platform.
It goes back to how you want toimplement it.
So, understanding what thatlooks like, and then the last
one I would say is don't beupset and don't go overboard.
Lose sleep behind what you find, and that goes back to learning
(22:02):
your child.
That's a good one, because yourchild is developing, they're
growing.
There are certain times, as aparent, you tell them not to
touch the stove and they'restill going to go touch the
stove until they feel that it'shot.
They realize that it's hot.
They get a burn because it'shot and you just want to make
sure the burn doesn't like taketheir arm off or they've got to
amputate or whatever.
(22:22):
You want to make sure it's notsevere.
But in some cases you need tolet them burn themselves.
Yeah, so they get that pictureyou want, your as a parent.
You're trying to make sure thatit's not life threatening or
that it's not going to change,alter the course of their life
forever.
So when you're giving the childthe technology and they're
going to start using it andlearning and branching out and
(22:43):
doing different things,understand and learn your child
and learn how to balance that.
Because if you try to go aftereverything they do and try to go
after every piece of technologyand every application they
could possibly do it, possiblyevery avenue they could be
attacked from, you're not goingto get your job done, you're not
going to live, you just won't.
(23:04):
Yeah, you're just living,especially if you have more than
one child.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I know some people who'vetouched that stove when they
were 13 years old and they can.
They're 40 and 50 and they'restill touching that stove, yeah.
Sometimes, twice a day.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
Some just never learn and so it's one of those things
.
But yeah, that that is where Ithink from a, from that state,
if I had to rearrange them.
That's probably the mostimportant to me is that piece of
it, because that plays afoundation into what you are
doing with the technology.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Yeah, I think that trust aspect is very important.
I think fostering trust withyour kids, that's probably the
best thing that you can do toprotect them, because it's a
management of ecosystems.
What you're trying to do isbuild an ecosystem where your
kid can roam.
Yeah, they might bump into afence every now and then, but
you know they're not gonna gotoo far off the farm, right.
(24:01):
So I think that that's soimportant, especially when we're
talking about building trust asa mitigation factor.
So if we were to put this likein cyber security speak, if the
threat is that others willinfluence them and others will
take up that mind share and takeup their time, then the
(24:24):
mitigating control really is tofoster an ecosystem of trust so
that when something does happenthey come to you.
And I think that a lot ofparents they really go the route
of of and I'm not trying toknock anybody or disparage
anybody, but you know my parentswere pretty strict and I feel
like once you're too strict andyou feel like you can't open up
(24:46):
to your parents about certainthings, then you just depend on
your friends for education.
Your friends teach you how tocircumvent the controls and you
know you lose that trust andtherefore you are no longer
under the jurisdiction or theprotection of your parents.
So I think, ironically, a lotof parents when they're trying
(25:09):
to protect their kids, they tryto lock everything down as much
as they possibly can, keep themin a very small closed box, and
that is the very thing thatloses those kids, and now
they're going to break out ofthe box and then you can't
protect them at all because nowthey're out in the wild where
you cannot enable a family shareplan or anything like that.
(25:32):
So I'm glad that you touched onthat, because I think a lot of
parents they might think of thebits and the bytes and the
technology, but not really thinkabout the trust factor.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Yes, and in this day and age, with what your child is
going to learn and thegenerational differences and how
the generation we're raisingbecame from the generation
that's raising them, is starkBecause the same.
For example, I had a.
We had a disagreement with myoldest because I used the thumbs
up symbol.
I was not aware that justhitting thumbs up in a chat was
(26:07):
passive, aggressive.
It is.
It is.
There's an actual article aboutit, right?
Speaker 1 (26:12):
I do it all the time.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
For me.
I hit thumbs up.
Hey, good to go that means youknow I understand solid copy.
To you know, let's keep up.
Hey, good to go.
That means I understand solidcopy too.
Let's keep moving.
But to the generation that Iwas raising it was I didn't pay
attention to what you weresaying, I didn't care enough to
read into it and you justdismissed me by hitting thumbs
up.
You didn't even if you had said, ok, the letters, ok was better
(26:36):
than doing a thumbs up.
But to my generation they'reboth the same thing.
So when we talk about how thattrust is built and building that
relationship that you justmentioned built, and building
that relationship that you justmentioned, understanding how
these things work is importantbecause you're going to see
things that you're going to wantto lock down immediately.
My youngest she always talksabout things like go play in
(26:58):
traffic or go kill yourself orsomething along those lines.
She's being euphemistic.
However, it's not the samething as to us, where that's
like what do you mean?
You want me to just go?
You know, do you want to takemy life?
That's not that serious.
But to that generation it's avery common colloquialism that
they use almost regular yeah, soit's.
It's just different ways thatyou're looking at it and
(27:22):
understanding that dynamic withthe trust, because, again, you
have to trust that you know whenI was growing up, um, I would
you know, don't touch anythingin the store when I was raising
my children.
Don't touch anything in thestore, break all your fingers.
Was I going to break all ofthem?
No, had somebody else heard mesay that, I'd probably be locked
up right now and as a child butit was just I, that's what I
(27:49):
would say and and but mychildren knew that I didn't mean
, I was actually going to breaktheir fingers, right, yeah, they
didn't know, I was serious thatdon't touch anything in the
store, especially.
You know we're walking around,yeah, but those types of things
as you learn and you go throughthe trust but verify comes back
into play.
And as a cybersecurity person,we do that all the time because
if I tell you set this policyand you're supposed to abide by
(28:10):
this policy, and we go throughthe policy and you sign that you
understand the policy, usersare going to be users and
they're going to figure out howto break the policy.
And the general answer isbecause I needed to do my job.
I needed to do what it takes toget the job done.
So now we have shadow IT, whichis a cybersecurity person's
worst nightmare, because nowI've got people circumventing my
(28:31):
controls to do what they needto do.
So, when we think about it froma cybersecurity professional
standpoint, how do I bridge thegap with the business to
understand what is it they'retrying to do?
What am I preventing?
Why do they feel the need to goaround my controls?
Let's work together to build abridge.
Taking that personally, thatsame mentality comes in when
(28:51):
you're talking with your child.
If you don't build that trust.
I have no idea how I'm going tobridge that gap.
If they want this, or theydownload this software, or they
have a Finsta account instead ofan Insta account, which is just
a fake Instagram it's the samething, but they have the Finsta
account.
They have the fake discordaccount, they have a whole fake
life that they've built andyou're trying to understand.
(29:14):
The life they show you is X,the life they live is Y, and
you're saying how do I bridgethe gap and get them to talk to
me about both?
So then that trust, but verify,comes in.
I'm going to give you thatlatitude and that space.
But, as a parent, how do youbuild that trust behind the
scenes?
And that's where some of theapplications come in, and we
were very transparent with ourchildren.
We told them we're putting thison here because I'm protecting
(29:37):
you from yourself, or there arethings that you may not be aware
of that I want to know aboutand we'll talk about it.
How did they react to that?
Well, they didn't like it atall.
I can tell you how did theyreact to that.
(30:03):
Or passcode, or I don't know thepasscode to get in and I can
cause.
The phone should be can bechecked at any time, randomly.
I could just walk in one dayand say, hey, how you doing, had
a great day at school Give methe phone.
And if you did not, present thephone regardless, exactly
because, again, it's a privilege, not a right.
And so when we would talktransparently about these things
, we showed our intention was toshow, as we build trust, if you
(30:28):
, you know that trust is there,cause there will be times that I
would ask for the phone andthey would give it to me and be
like, okay, you can have it back.
Well, you didn't look at it.
Well, that's because I did whatI needed to do you.
You weren't afraid to hand methe phone, so there was no
reason to look into it.
Yeah, um, yeah Right.
So, as you think about thosethings, that's how you start to
balance.
But again, it's a give and atake.
(30:48):
I'm learning what my child isdoing.
They're learning how I'mresponding.
They're also learning how tocircumvent.
So there's that dichotomy there.
Your child is always going totry to figure out ways they can
do what they need to do.
They're learning, and in somecases it's not malicious or
nefarious.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
In some cases, they just want to do what they want
to do or, to your point, theyheard from their friends on how
to do it yeah, all of thesedifferent things, so their their
friends are kind of like uh,hackers, you know, like, oh yeah
, I mean, they've got a wholeand they're as organized as the
real hackers.
They probably have a project, aproject manager, they probably
have an hr department, they havea ceo.
You know if they have a uh, youknow a base of knowledge that
you can go to.
They've got a wiki.
I'm sure it all exists onlineand oh my gosh.
(31:35):
And that's fine, because kidsare going to do what kids are
going to do and I like that youdraw that.
You drew the parallel, uh,between kids and employees.
Employees do the same thing.
They will circumvent securitycontrols because they need to
get their job done.
Kids will circumvent thesecurity controls because they
need to continue with the job ofbeing a kid.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Like that's what they do.
Yes, and there were so manycreative ways and it's like, for
example, there would be timesthat I would unplug the route,
the ethernet cable on the backof my PS3, but I wouldn't unplug
it all the way and pull it outto where it looked disconnected,
I would just unplug it slightly, but it looks so.
If you took the time to lookback there, you would think it
(32:17):
was plugged in and you couldn'tfigure out why.
And the wifi wasn't connected.
So little things like that thatyou're trying cause you were
grounded from the PlayStation.
How do I ensure you staygrounded from the PlayStation?
Yeah, you can't get online todo your game and they were all
into the online gaming.
You know, it's just those.
Yeah, as you grow and learn,those things happen.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
You did it, I did it, everybody listening here does
it.
You can't expect your childrento be perfect little angels, and
they're never going to do iteither.
So here's the big questionthat's on my mind, sure, and
it's on the minds of manyparents out there, especially if
they're parents of six sevenyear olds Roblox yes or no.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
I say yes.
Here's why yes because inunderstanding the generational
differences between ourgeneration and their generation,
the generation that's we'reraising right now would much
prefer and it sees on a regularbasis to be in the electronic
space and communicate, hang outand have friends.
Psychologically, you don't wantthat.
(33:25):
You want them to have realworld interactions and deal with
adversity and things like that.
So there has to to be a balance.
But what Roblox does is itcreates that online area where
to facilitate their growth.
Through that, when my childrenwere playing Roblox, they'd
fostered their ability to docertain things and we'd made
(33:45):
them go out and see the realworld, touch the real, you know,
let the real sun hit their faceand all of the rest of those
things.
But if I had not let her dothat, the child that she was
growing into be my youngestdaughter.
So I'm talking to you about nowshe grew in.
She loves dungeons and dragons,which is, by nature, is the
where you go and you have to bewith other people.
(34:05):
You're doing thingsface-to-face contact.
You go and you have to be withother people.
You're doing thingsface-to-face contact.
So she grew into some of thosethings.
But when we talk about Roblox.
The yes is because it helpsfoster their connections.
They can build relationshipswith their peers.
And I'm very careful to saythat, because this is where the
(34:26):
bad side comes in, this is wherethe hesitancy comes in.
Roblox, by nature, is an onlinecollaborative community, but,
just like with anything else,once something goes out there to
make something great orsomething facilitated, there's
always that negative aspect.
And the funny thing is, whenyou look at what they're doing
and how they're doing it,they're not necessarily doing
(34:47):
something wrong.
They just found a way toexploit the system.
So Roblox has a chat feature,roblox has a call feature.
Roblox has different things.
You can look at everything.
And if the child, if the personon the other end could coerce
the child into giving themsomething that they need to meet
up offline or get details andthings like that, you have a
(35:07):
larger problem.
So when you think about givingthe child roadblocks the yeses
for that, but then you growthwith guardrails, like we talked
about.
What sort of chats are theydoing?
What sort of parental controlscan I put on there?
What sort of things can I lookat?
Can I?
You know, I'm going to walk bymy child or sit over their
(35:28):
shoulder for at least the first20, 30 minutes.
Or you can only play Roblox ifwe're all in the living room and
I'm looking at your iPad andI'm looking at you play Roblox
on the iPad.
If you're in an online chat,you're playing it on your
speakers, not your headphones,because I'm listening to what
the conversation is, and when Ihear that errant voice of
somebody that's not supposed tobe there, we don't do that.
The other thing that we did waswe told our children, if you
(35:53):
are going to in real, in reallife, in IRL, right In IRL, we
have to meet.
If you're going over tosomeone's house, you can't go
over there until we meet theparents.
I don't, I don't need to go.
We don't need to have anin-depth conversation, have a
dinner party or anything elselike that, but I need to shake
your hand and see your home, andI will, because in my mind, I'm
gathering information about whoyou are and what type of
(36:16):
environment am I bringing mychild or letting my child go
into?
Same thing with online.
If you can't.
If you're in an online chat andevery name in there, you can't
point to their picture in youryearbook, or you can't point or
tell me, that's Susie Brown orthat's Jimmy Timmy, whatever the
you know, you can't point thatthey're in your class and tell
me now you know what period arethey in what?
(36:37):
How do you know?
What classes do you have?
What are you all studying?
Hey Timmy, what were you?
What do you?
What did you learn about todayin class?
So now I'm trusting, but I'mverifying that this is actually
someone you know, because that'swhat happens is, especially
with young men and young women,the online, the allure of the
(37:01):
NSFW stuff.
How do I get that?
I'm going to send them apicture that entices them in one
way or another.
And then, because the childthinks that they're talking to
this person on the other side,whatever you got their, whatever
got their juices flowing that'show the lure starts and they
start reeling them in.
So when you start askingquestions, like, okay, and that
person out there can't answerthose questions, well, you don't
know my child Immediately done,that's it Blocked and we move
(37:23):
on right.
And so when you start lookingat those aspects and Roblox is
just one of those you've gotTikToks and YouTube anywhere
that they can communicate orsomeone can communicate with
your child the same danger ispresent.
Roblox is you have youngerchildren getting on there and
the parents think, ok, I'm justgoing to give you the iPad,
(37:45):
you're going to play Roblox, andthere's six or seven.
There is even things out therefrom a YouTube perspective.
There was a where there's avideo and it was like a
Teletubby video or somethingalong the lines, geared towards
that age group, and it was setso that the algorithm of YouTube
it was there.
The dangerous part came inright after the algorithm would
(38:05):
have kicked in and it taughtkids what's called the suicide
song oh yeah, I heard about that.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
Did your kids ever encounter something like that?
Did you ever hear that?
Speaker 2 (38:16):
yes, yeah, yeah, definitely so that my daughter
was on youtube kids and and youknow we started hearing this we
immediately went and looked atsome of those things.
I was ahead of it because I wasalways, you know, I started.
You started getting really intocybersecurity at the time.
So my younger two, or myyounger one, my daughter, she
did not get any of that.
My older two, my older boys,had some of that as we were
(38:39):
getting my feet wet there.
But if you have people out therethat are looking to break what,
they know how it works and thenthey did it to get past the
security measures and I'm notgoing to say that's on YouTube
or Google or whoever to figureall of this out, because all
they're doing is the same thingwe talk about users doing.
That's shadow IT.
I can't predict how someone isgoing to use it.
(39:03):
I can try to do every which way, but I can tell you now there's
11 Saw movies.
I could not have thought of howmany different ways to make
people die in those movies thatthese, these writers do, right.
So there's somebody out therethinking about how to do the
things that they're doing.
I'm not that person, so I don'tthink along those same lines,
but I can think I'm going to domy best effort when I learn
(39:24):
about we're going to prevent it.
So that's how I think about thecompanies.
They're, they're, they're doingmore, they're trying to be
proactive.
But if I've got somebody whosepurpose is to help kids figure
out how to commit suicide theright way, and they, but I I'm
not, I'm not seeing that.
So how, how it was caught, wasthat the parent was watching
over the child and they saw itover their shoulder or they
(39:45):
heard it over their shoulder,and it's like, ok, now I need to
investigate.
So that's where you have thetools, the controls, and then
you set boundaries as the parentto monitor, trust but verify.
How are we looking at?
How are we doing these things?
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Yeah, yeah, well, we didn't get to the grandparents
and the girlfriend and all theother people that we need to
protect, but I think this was areally good conversation about
how to protect our kids, andespecially starting with the
devices, namely the phone.
So, marcus, I think this is thefirst of many conversations.
(40:20):
This is an official invite backto Cybernomics.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
Thank you, sir.
I appreciate the time.
I will definitely be back.
I enjoyed the conversation.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
If people want to follow you or find you, how can
they do that?
Yes, I, sir, I appreciate thetime I will definitely be back.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
I enjoyed the conversation.
If people want to follow you orfind you, how can they do that?
Yes, I am on LinkedIn.
I have an Instagram account,but I have no idea I use that to
watch videos, so I am not onthere regularly, but on LinkedIn
you can find me.
Marcus Pete, all one word atthe end of the URL.
That's how you can find me.
Or if you're here in theAtlanta area, I'm going to be
around at many of the networkingevents, so feel free to look me
(40:52):
up and we can hang out or havecoffee.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
And if you break your arm or dislocate your shoulder,
check out PT Solutions.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
Definitely, we are ready to assist and help you
become unstoppable, awesome.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
Thank you for listening to this episode of
Cybernomics.
I'm Josh Bruning.
If you want to find me, you cancheck me out on LinkedIn.
Just search Josh BruningB-R-U-Y-N-I-N-G.
And if you want to learn moreabout Bruning Media and what we
do, check out bruningcomB-R-U-Y-N-I-N-Gcom.
Thanks again for listening to
I'm going to start calling you the executive senior
director of informationsecurity, dad in chief and
because and I think that dad isthe most important title in that
string, so I really appreciateyou coming and sharing your
thoughts as a father, as asecurity professional, on
cybernomics.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Well.
Thank you, josh.
I appreciate the opportunity tocome on your show.
I'm a fan and so being able tobe on this side of the instead
of just listening is phenomenal,and I appreciate you giving me
the opportunity.
Yes, as you, as you mentioned,I'm the Senior Director of
Information Security at BTSolutions and we are a
nationwide physical therapypractice, so we have many
(00:41):
different clinics.
Generally, in some areas, wepartner with the local hospital
in that area to provide physicaltherapy to patients in that
market, next to within a certainradius of that major hospital
system, and in other areas weare an ambulatory clinic.
What that means is we are notassociated directly or attached
to a hospital.
We're kind of like a standalone.
(01:01):
You'll find this next to Publixor next to Food for Less or
something along those lines.
We have our own storefrontoperation where you can come get
physical therapy local to you.
Currently we're in 25 statesacross the US.
We are not international and mygoal is to ensure that one.
I evangelize security.
I love to promote security.
(01:22):
It fascinates me, it excites me, it does.
It's what got me into, kind ofwhere we're headed to today with
today's conversation, whichstarted me down that path, and
my goal is.
I see myself as a facilitator,and growth with guardrails is
kind of what my.
If I had a catchphrase, thatwould be what the catchphrase is
.
I want to facilitate what we'retalking about, but let's put it
(01:42):
within certain parameters andlet's move forward together.
Because I'm a father of three,what were the challenges that I
had?
Teaching them and growing upmyself, maturity wise and
maturing in my profession,maturing in my parenting,
maturing as an individual andwhen I saw what things were
happening and as I prepared myown children, and listening to
(02:03):
other parents.
There was something about howdo I take my knowledge.
I was blessed to be able tounderstand technology, build
technology, work with technologyas my career.
In the Marine Corps I was acommunications technician, so
means short, long way to say.
I followed five volts around amotherboard pretty well right
and made sure that that was good.
And when you have that in-depthknowledge and you take it to
(02:25):
someone who spent as equalamount of time just on whatever
profession they are a doctor whospent years longer than I did
learning their profession, or atax accountant, or just somebody
who's not necessarilytechnology focused from their
onset how do I help them do thesame thing that I did and not
have their children.
Because the one thing we havein common, the common
(02:45):
denominator, is we were parentsand we want to protect our
children, we want to protect theenvironment that they're in,
protect our family members,protect our parents, who are not
necessarily as technologicallysavvy as we may be or we
consider ourselves to be.
So, as we think about all ofthose things, how does that help
?
And that's where my heart kindof went into and brought me into
(03:07):
cybersecurity.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Before you became a dad, did you see this problem in
terms of protecting our kidsand sort of the personal side of
security, or is this somethingthat changed?
The moment you held your firstkid in your arms, did your
priorities as a parent and as aprofessional shift.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
So for me I'm going to say yeah, it became apparent
when I became a father and forme, I became a father when I got
married.
My oldest son.
I don't consider him my stepson, I've never referred to him as
my stepson but technically, if Ifill out a legal paperwork,
he's my stepson, right?
It wasn't until theresponsibility of something,
(03:52):
someone other than myself, andthe realization that I am the
one that has to do this, thatthe protective mode and the
thoughts behind how do I do that?
And then, because I'm in thetechnology field and electronics
field, how do I do thatelectronically?
They're going to feed off of me.
I was, I'm been a gamer sincethe very first Nintendo and I
(04:13):
had an Atari.
So I'm growing up with all ofthat in the house and doing
things.
The Commodore 64 was the veryfirst computer I played.
Karateka was the very firstgame I played.
So the evolution of video gamesand things and bringing
technology within the home andthe advances that were making
technology more accessible,coupled with this jumps in
(04:34):
technology to keep up with it, Irealized my children wanting
these things, wanting theseareas.
We went through the VTech IOphase.
You know we went through thisNintendo Wii phase and all of
these things.
The fatherhood itself propelledthe thoughts behind protection
and it stemmed from how do Imake sure my children are safe?
(04:55):
How do I make sure I providethe best for them?
How do I monitor what it isthey're doing so I can make that
decision?
And I want to say I was not ahelicopter parent at first, but
I became a helicopter parent, atleast in the logical space,
Once we started seeing just howmuch of the world opened up.
When I was growing up, it wasAOL and you had to dial in and
(05:18):
you had to make sure you had aset up for phone line.
Was there were dangers andthings like that then?
But the prevalence and thespeed of which technology and
the ability to have it withinyour fingertips, and the amount
of danger that can bring orpresent to an unknown or naive
individual, how do we help them?
Speaker 1 (05:37):
understand that.
I think that's a really goodpoint, and we can start there
and see where it goes Protectingyour kids.
And it starts with the devices.
The devices, yes, let's talkabout the devices.
Okay, the phone being the maindevice.
How old do you think a kidshould be before they have their
first phone, and why?
Speaker 2 (05:58):
From my perspective and within our household, we
said that when you became a teen, the word teen was in your age.
That is when you came aboutLegally speaking.
That's also where COPPA comesinto play, because that's where
you have to be 13 to have aFacebook account or an Instagram
account or be able to makedecisions in the Apple iTunes
(06:19):
store.
So you have the federal lawthat says 13.
But for us, being a teen,because in elementary school, we
didn't feel that our childrenneeded to even worry about that
when you had an iPad, it wasgoverned and the technology was
there.
But when our children for uswhen I talk about us, I mean
myself and my wife ourphilosophy has always been the
(06:39):
phone is a privilege, it is nota right.
It is not a right.
The phone itself is somethingthat you use, not just to chat
with your friends and play games, but it needs to be productive,
because our goal was to teachthem how to integrate it and
become better with thetechnology, which is kind of
helping with that going forward,and they became roughly around
(07:01):
middle school age and they werestarting to do things like stay
after school for certain items.
That's where we would come intoplay what we did for my
daughter when she was younger.
The funny story and what kindof sparked, you know, kicked us
off a little into higher gear.
We were walking through themall, we were discussing this
exact topic Do we get ourchildren a cell phone?
And we said no, we don't wantto do it.
She was five or six at a time.
(07:22):
We were discussing going toDisney World for the first time
as a family it was my thank yougift to my family for following
me around the world being in themilitary and we're walking
through the mall and we walkedpast.
We were actually at the Verizonkiosk counter and we're talking
with the representative andthey're giving us options and
we're discussing it.
We looked down and mydaughter's gone.
She had walked away and we werelooking around.
(07:44):
Where in the world could shehave gone?
And we looked ahead and all ofa sudden we see this little girl
talking to this carousel rider,because there happened to be a
carousel in the mall.
It was like just horsies andriding up and down.
She had wanted to go.
We said, no, we'll get there ina minute.
Well, while we were talking,she took the opportunity to go.
(08:04):
At that point it was okay, howin the world cause we didn't
believe in like having abackpack with the leash or you
know the tethering or any ofthat stuff, right?
So how do I keep track of mychild in this situation and
knowing that we're getting readyto go to somewhere, that her
attention is going to be grabbedin almost the exact same
fashion and we have no idea, howdo we try to help with that?
(08:25):
So it was at that moment thatthe for younger children between
uh, old enough to tell time andunderstand what's on their
wrist to you know 13, when theyget a phone, was the wristwatch.
So we got her immediately, gother one of those watches that
she could make uh calls on, butfor us it had a GPS tracker,
right.
So there's that line that wehad.
(08:46):
But it became very real for usthat technology needed to be
there to help us in this age andwe didn't have that growing up.
But now that we do, how do weleverage it?
And that's the story of howcell phones came about in our
family and when we switchedproviders, the story of how cell
phones came about in our familyand when we switched providers,
(09:07):
the new provider didn't havethe watch.
So we did get her a phone itwas before the age, but that was
only because they didn't havethe watch, because there were so
many advantages to having thewatch that we loved as a parent,
and balancing protection versusindependence and ability, or
the thought of the child feelingempowered and feeling like
(09:28):
they're not behind, or gettingmade fun of because now you'll
get.
We got bullied for having XJ900s from Walmart instead of
having some Nikes when I wasgrowing up and you didn't have a
starter jacket because you hadto have the Charlotte Hornets
starter jacket or else youweren't cool, even if you
weren't a Charlotte Hornets fan.
But now they get bullied foranything and everything and the
access to being bullied iseverywhere.
So how do you make sure?
(09:48):
When you take that into account?
It's like all these politicaldynamics that you would never
even think or consider growingup.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
What are the hidden costs of getting a cell phone?
Speaker 2 (10:00):
The biggest one is going to be time, if I you know,
when you think about it,because while you don't have to
spend the time and I'm notsaying you need to become, you
know, the cybersecurityprofessional in order to do this
it does take time to understandwhat's going on.
With every generation, there'sgoing to be a translation of
languages.
There was a movie I can'tremember what the name of it was
(10:22):
, but the father was father wasin there and the iMessage was
connected to the computer andthey were trading pictures and
it was about they saw theeggplant with the water symbol
and all of those types of things.
How do you understand what thechild is communicating with?
To them, it's second nature.
To you it's a foreign language.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
By the way, if you're listening to this and you don't
know what the eggplant with thewater emoji is, Google it.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Yes, yes, don't, don't, don't and don't Google it
at work.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Don't Google it at work Right?
Don't Google it at work.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
So you have from going and understanding how
they're communicating to whatthey're communicating with, and
so there's the app stores are soplentiful with all these
different types of applications.
So understanding what is thecommon denominator and how do
you just monitor that and thenthinking about what it is you
want to do as a parent.
(11:17):
The most important thing when Iteach classes to parents is I
tell you how I did it.
You may not agree, and you andyour spouse may not agree, with
the methods that my me and myspouse did to raise our children
and the things and rules thatwe set, but understanding what
those are for your householdbecause it takes a united front
(11:37):
to be that proactive, becausethere are things that I didn't
know or I couldn't see or thatmy children would talk to my
wife about you have to.
It becomes a parenting tool.
So there again, all of thosecome to time and that's the one
thing that when I talk to peopleis that they don't have enough
of, which is why we've got AI,we've got microwaves and we've
(11:59):
got TikToks that are only thislong and tweets that can only be
140 characters.
Everything is about the amountof time and consumption of
information into a distinctsmall micro sessions that I can
get and they're impactful.
So, when you think about all ofthose things, couple that with
the generation that's growing up.
Time is going to be what youneed to invest, more than actual
(12:19):
dollars Now.
Dollars are going to be veryhelpful.
They will help support the time, but time is going to be very
helpful.
They will help support the time, but time is going to be your
hidden cost.
And the biggest time isunderstanding your child, I
would think, Because when youthink about how your child
thinks, processes, information,learns things curious about what
(12:40):
is in their nature as theparent, that translates into
their online activity.
It translates into what you'reseeing.
It translates into wherethey're going.
What sort of things are yougoing to find?
Because when you invest thedollars into things like a
centralized area, you'remonitoring your gateway for
websites and things that they'regoing to, whether it be on
their phone, their TV, theirsmart device, their iPad, their
(13:02):
game system, their computer, Ifthey have a computer, a
Chromebook, if they have aChromebook for school.
All of these things connect tothe internet and all of them can
be accessed and utilized invarious different ways.
When you invest in it andyou're looking at the history or
the activity, or you invest insome software that monitors
their devices and you're lookingat the activity.
Do you know your child?
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Because at that point comes into play.
Hey, marcus, just real quick.
What kind of software areparents putting on their phone?
I wasn't even aware until youjust said that that there's
software that you can put onyour kid's phone.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Oh man there is a whole world out there, and does
it matter whether?
Speaker 1 (13:42):
they have an iPhone versus an Android.
I feel like Android would bemuch easier.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
It does, it matters very much.
Google, I think, does a verygood job for the age range of, I
would say, you know, zero to 13, right, and they have Family
Link and, in my opinion, familyLink I like that because it
takes over the device that youput it on and because it's
agnostic.
I can get a Motorola, whateverAndroid device.
(14:09):
You have to create a separateaccount that takes over the root
administrative function of thatdevice and they can't do
anything unless you authorize it.
Now Apple has something similar, but we've seen articles where
the privacy settings and otherthings.
Apple is more towards empoweringthe individual.
Depending on the age of theindividual, so privacy is very
(14:30):
important to them as a whole,and so, when it comes to
parenting, that can get in theway of you trying to make sure
your child is monitored, if youwant to go that route, of course
, but when they get after 13 andthey start to get into social
media, there are a lot ofdifferent tools out there, but
software is one of them, the oneI like the best of.
What we use was Bark, and Barkessentially creates a VPN from
(14:53):
the device so it monitors alltraffic and things from there,
but then it also, it's analways-on VPN, but then it
connects to all of their socialmedia accounts and it combs all
of the activity that's done onthese various different
activities and then it distillsit down to something that you
read that's relevant.
So you're talking about a wholeconversation that's 15 pages
(15:13):
long, but the only quote unquotepart that she was concerning,
they put into like five linesyeah, let's highlight every time
the word boy was mentioned.
You know.
So if that's, if that's aconcern, right, you can get that
information.
And this is when the technologyfirst came out and when it
presented it to you, it saidhere's why it's concerning, but
(15:37):
ultimately, here's how you havea conversation with your child
about this.
Concerning content Wow.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
When I teach classes.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
I give examples out of my account where my middle
son helped avert a suicideattempt and it was only in text
message and he knew exactly whatto do and it told us hey, you
know, this is what your son did,and we actually just let it
play out through the barkmessages and he went and told
the principal, we got the child,the child that was having the
issue, we got them some help andhe did all of that and we just
(16:07):
watched it play out.
We didn't have to intervene.
But when you start doing thosethings and understanding what
those tools are and how they'reable to present that information
to you, there's embark is justthe one that I so happen to use.
Embark is advanced.
They've got, I think, a routernow and they've got their own
Android phone now.
So there's a bunch of differentthings that you can do as a
parent.
But I also install things likeBitdefender, which is my
(16:30):
antivirus.
The antivirus application has aparental control app, so now I
have antivirus on my device Ifthey're on my daughter's
computers.
Microsoft has family safety.
I use family safety to getactivity tracking, log tracking.
How long are they using thatlaptop?
For?
When you go into Google, youcan have the family link device,
when it connects to all theirdevices, gives you the same
(16:51):
information.
I can actually schedule time onand off.
So that's what the software isfor.
To an adult it's the equivalentof like a key logger.
It's from a cyber securityperspective, it's a key logger.
It's a tattletale software.
Tattleware is what it's calledthe.
You know, that's where peoplecame up with inventions of
putting the mouse, laser mouse,on the ticking watch so it
(17:12):
records movement.
So it's like there and thebubble never goes green or never
goes red or yellow.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Oh, yeah, so it's.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
You know those types of things.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
I discovered that way too late, after I had been
working remote for like threeyears.
A friend of mine was like yeah,you can just like put that on
this thing and I'm just likeyou're never going to go red and
I'm like where were you?
I've known you for three years.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
You should have led with that.
It's funny.
But yeah, there's just so muchyou can do.
And it's also there's a lotthat they can do.
Yeah, like hiding apps how doyou know where to go?
So identification all the wayaround.
But yes, there are plenty ofapplications that you can put on
devices, and there are Androidversions as well as iPhone
versions.
You can put on devices andthere are Android versions as
(17:59):
well as iPhone versions.
To your point, the Androidversion may have a little bit
easier time because it's a morewide, open ecosystem and it's
open source by nature, sothere's a little bit more for it
there.
But within the Apple ecosystem,they do a great job of the
parental controls within theApple app software itself, the
native Apple software, and thenyou can add apps on top of that.
That work, integrate withwhat's already being done, so
(18:23):
the same information can begleaned from both, because both
organizations at that levelunderstand that they want to
help protect and give you thetools as a parent to do
something about.
I am an Android household, I'mnot an iHousehold, but I'm not
going to bash either one.
I think if, depending on whichecosystem you're in, there are
tools that are going to be thereand applications and software
you can get that give you thesame or similar amounts of
(18:46):
information to do what you'retrying to do and protect and
raise your child.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
For parents who are about to embark on that journey
very scary giving their childtheir first phone what are like
one, two, three things that theycan do to make sure, right out
of the gate, that they're atleast like 60% covered?
Speaker 2 (19:08):
You want to make sure that in, like the Apple world,
don't create a separate accountat the base level.
You want to create an accountfrom within the family setting
so that it's not because if youcreate a standalone one, it
takes all the rights andprivileges therein of the
privacy settings and otherthings from a standalone I
(19:29):
account.
And you'd be surprised.
You may think well, I just needto know the password and the
authentication comes to my phone.
Your child will figure out howto circumvent.
I guarantee you you will neverknow it and it'll be four years,
five years old and they willhave already reset and bought 15
things with plenty of storiesabout that.
Right.
So make sure, because when youdo it from inside, it creates
(19:50):
inherent permissions and blocksat the software operating system
level, if you will, of thatdevice.
That is not present when you doit from a standalone account.
So on the Apple side you can doit from there.
On the Google side it would beFamily Link.
That's what that does it foryou there.
But that would be the firstthing is create those accounts
so that you have and you protectyourself and the biggest thing
(20:13):
is from charges.
There are some places where achild finds a game and they make
it so easy to hit that buttonto start buying.
I want to buy the tickets.
I want to play Candy Crush.
I need to get past this level.
I'm going to keep buying.
It's not charging me.
That account is charged to yourApple Card or whatever it is
you have as a parent.
Now you've got a $7,000 billand you're trying to figure out
how did I rack up in Candy Crushand there's just plenty of
(20:37):
spoilers about it.
It's so much easier than youthink, oh my gosh.
And they make it.
So they hit that nerve centerof the brain that says I need to
do this, so your child?
When you create the accountsthat way, those blocks are
inherent and, from acybersecurity protection
perspective, the not safe forwork sites, the nefarious things
(20:58):
when they click an ad that's abad ad, that does pop-ins or
tries to download software,malware, phishing those things
are built into those areas whenyou do it from that standpoint.
So understanding how to getstarted is probably the first
thing.
The next thing I would say isthink about, have a conversation
and understand which technologyyou're going to go with.
(21:19):
Are you an Apple household?
What are my tools with Apple?
Are you a Google household?
What are my tools with Google?
If Microsoft decides to getback into the device biz, what
are my tools with Microsoft?
Because they will havesomething.
And how does it?
You know, does it mesh with theway that I want to raise my
child?
And that's what you'rebalancing that with, because
(21:42):
technology can be made to dowhat you need it to do and there
are ways to do what you need todo in either platform.
It goes back to how you want toimplement it.
So, understanding what thatlooks like, and then the last
one I would say is don't beupset and don't go overboard.
Lose sleep behind what you find, and that goes back to learning
(22:02):
your child.
That's a good one, because yourchild is developing, they're
growing.
There are certain times, as aparent, you tell them not to
touch the stove and they'restill going to go touch the
stove until they feel that it'shot.
They realize that it's hot.
They get a burn because it'shot and you just want to make
sure the burn doesn't like taketheir arm off or they've got to
amputate or whatever.
(22:22):
You want to make sure it's notsevere.
But in some cases you need tolet them burn themselves.
Yeah, so they get that pictureyou want, your as a parent.
You're trying to make sure thatit's not life threatening or
that it's not going to change,alter the course of their life
forever.
So when you're giving the childthe technology and they're
going to start using it andlearning and branching out and
(22:43):
doing different things,understand and learn your child
and learn how to balance that.
Because if you try to go aftereverything they do and try to go
after every piece of technologyand every application they
could possibly do it, possiblyevery avenue they could be
attacked from, you're not goingto get your job done, you're not
going to live, you just won't.
(23:04):
Yeah, you're just living,especially if you have more than
one child.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I know some people who'vetouched that stove when they
were 13 years old and they can.
They're 40 and 50 and they'restill touching that stove, yeah.
Sometimes, twice a day.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
Some just never learn and so it's one of those things
.
But yeah, that that is where Ithink from a, from that state,
if I had to rearrange them.
That's probably the mostimportant to me is that piece of
it, because that plays afoundation into what you are
doing with the technology.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Yeah, I think that trust aspect is very important.
I think fostering trust withyour kids, that's probably the
best thing that you can do toprotect them, because it's a
management of ecosystems.
What you're trying to do isbuild an ecosystem where your
kid can roam.
Yeah, they might bump into afence every now and then, but
you know they're not gonna gotoo far off the farm, right.
(24:01):
So I think that that's soimportant, especially when we're
talking about building trust asa mitigation factor.
So if we were to put this likein cyber security speak, if the
threat is that others willinfluence them and others will
take up that mind share and takeup their time, then the
(24:24):
mitigating control really is tofoster an ecosystem of trust so
that when something does happenthey come to you.
And I think that a lot ofparents they really go the route
of of and I'm not trying toknock anybody or disparage
anybody, but you know my parentswere pretty strict and I feel
like once you're too strict andyou feel like you can't open up
(24:46):
to your parents about certainthings, then you just depend on
your friends for education.
Your friends teach you how tocircumvent the controls and you
know you lose that trust andtherefore you are no longer
under the jurisdiction or theprotection of your parents.
So I think, ironically, a lotof parents when they're trying
(25:09):
to protect their kids, they tryto lock everything down as much
as they possibly can, keep themin a very small closed box, and
that is the very thing thatloses those kids, and now
they're going to break out ofthe box and then you can't
protect them at all because nowthey're out in the wild where
you cannot enable a family shareplan or anything like that.
(25:32):
So I'm glad that you touched onthat, because I think a lot of
parents they might think of thebits and the bytes and the
technology, but not really thinkabout the trust factor.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Yes, and in this day and age, with what your child is
going to learn and thegenerational differences and how
the generation we're raisingbecame from the generation
that's raising them, is starkBecause the same.
For example, I had a.
We had a disagreement with myoldest because I used the thumbs
up symbol.
I was not aware that justhitting thumbs up in a chat was
(26:07):
passive, aggressive.
It is.
It is.
There's an actual article aboutit, right?
Speaker 1 (26:12):
I do it all the time.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
For me.
I hit thumbs up.
Hey, good to go that means youknow I understand solid copy.
To you know, let's keep up.
Hey, good to go.
That means I understand solidcopy too.
Let's keep moving.
But to the generation that Iwas raising it was I didn't pay
attention to what you weresaying, I didn't care enough to
read into it and you justdismissed me by hitting thumbs
up.
You didn't even if you had said, ok, the letters, ok was better
(26:36):
than doing a thumbs up.
But to my generation they'reboth the same thing.
So when we talk about how thattrust is built and building that
relationship that you justmentioned built, and building
that relationship that you justmentioned, understanding how
these things work is importantbecause you're going to see
things that you're going to wantto lock down immediately.
My youngest she always talksabout things like go play in
(26:58):
traffic or go kill yourself orsomething along those lines.
She's being euphemistic.
However, it's not the samething as to us, where that's
like what do you mean?
You want me to just go?
You know, do you want to takemy life?
That's not that serious.
But to that generation it's avery common colloquialism that
they use almost regular yeah, soit's.
It's just different ways thatyou're looking at it and
(27:22):
understanding that dynamic withthe trust, because, again, you
have to trust that you know whenI was growing up, um, I would
you know, don't touch anythingin the store when I was raising
my children.
Don't touch anything in thestore, break all your fingers.
Was I going to break all ofthem?
No, had somebody else heard mesay that, I'd probably be locked
up right now and as a child butit was just I, that's what I
(27:49):
would say and and but mychildren knew that I didn't mean
, I was actually going to breaktheir fingers, right, yeah, they
didn't know, I was serious thatdon't touch anything in the
store, especially.
You know we're walking around,yeah, but those types of things
as you learn and you go throughthe trust but verify comes back
into play.
And as a cybersecurity person,we do that all the time because
if I tell you set this policyand you're supposed to abide by
(28:10):
this policy, and we go throughthe policy and you sign that you
understand the policy, usersare going to be users and
they're going to figure out howto break the policy.
And the general answer isbecause I needed to do my job.
I needed to do what it takes toget the job done.
So now we have shadow IT, whichis a cybersecurity person's
worst nightmare, because nowI've got people circumventing my
(28:31):
controls to do what they needto do.
So, when we think about it froma cybersecurity professional
standpoint, how do I bridge thegap with the business to
understand what is it they'retrying to do?
What am I preventing?
Why do they feel the need to goaround my controls?
Let's work together to build abridge.
Taking that personally, thatsame mentality comes in when
(28:51):
you're talking with your child.
If you don't build that trust.
I have no idea how I'm going tobridge that gap.
If they want this, or theydownload this software, or they
have a Finsta account instead ofan Insta account, which is just
a fake Instagram it's the samething, but they have the Finsta
account.
They have the fake discordaccount, they have a whole fake
life that they've built andyou're trying to understand.
(29:14):
The life they show you is X,the life they live is Y, and
you're saying how do I bridgethe gap and get them to talk to
me about both?
So then that trust, but verify,comes in.
I'm going to give you thatlatitude and that space.
But, as a parent, how do youbuild that trust behind the
scenes?
And that's where some of theapplications come in, and we
were very transparent with ourchildren.
We told them we're putting thison here because I'm protecting
(29:37):
you from yourself, or there arethings that you may not be aware
of that I want to know aboutand we'll talk about it.
How did they react to that?
Well, they didn't like it atall.
I can tell you how did theyreact to that.
(30:03):
Or passcode, or I don't know thepasscode to get in and I can
cause.
The phone should be can bechecked at any time, randomly.
I could just walk in one dayand say, hey, how you doing, had
a great day at school Give methe phone.
And if you did not, present thephone regardless, exactly
because, again, it's a privilege, not a right.
And so when we would talktransparently about these things
, we showed our intention was toshow, as we build trust, if you
(30:28):
, you know that trust is there,cause there will be times that I
would ask for the phone andthey would give it to me and be
like, okay, you can have it back.
Well, you didn't look at it.
Well, that's because I did whatI needed to do you.
You weren't afraid to hand methe phone, so there was no
reason to look into it.
Yeah, um, yeah Right.
So, as you think about thosethings, that's how you start to
balance.
But again, it's a give and atake.
(30:48):
I'm learning what my child isdoing.
They're learning how I'mresponding.
They're also learning how tocircumvent.
So there's that dichotomy there.
Your child is always going totry to figure out ways they can
do what they need to do.
They're learning, and in somecases it's not malicious or
nefarious.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
In some cases, they just want to do what they want
to do or, to your point, theyheard from their friends on how
to do it yeah, all of thesedifferent things, so their their
friends are kind of like uh,hackers, you know, like, oh yeah
, I mean, they've got a wholeand they're as organized as the
real hackers.
They probably have a project, aproject manager, they probably
have an hr department, they havea ceo.
You know if they have a uh, youknow a base of knowledge that
you can go to.
They've got a wiki.
I'm sure it all exists onlineand oh my gosh.
(31:35):
And that's fine, because kidsare going to do what kids are
going to do and I like that youdraw that.
You drew the parallel, uh,between kids and employees.
Employees do the same thing.
They will circumvent securitycontrols because they need to
get their job done.
Kids will circumvent thesecurity controls because they
need to continue with the job ofbeing a kid.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Like that's what they do.
Yes, and there were so manycreative ways and it's like, for
example, there would be timesthat I would unplug the route,
the ethernet cable on the backof my PS3, but I wouldn't unplug
it all the way and pull it outto where it looked disconnected,
I would just unplug it slightly, but it looks so.
If you took the time to lookback there, you would think it
(32:17):
was plugged in and you couldn'tfigure out why.
And the wifi wasn't connected.
So little things like that thatyou're trying cause you were
grounded from the PlayStation.
How do I ensure you staygrounded from the PlayStation?
Yeah, you can't get online todo your game and they were all
into the online gaming.
You know, it's just those.
Yeah, as you grow and learn,those things happen.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
You did it, I did it, everybody listening here does
it.
You can't expect your childrento be perfect little angels, and
they're never going to do iteither.
So here's the big questionthat's on my mind, sure, and
it's on the minds of manyparents out there, especially if
they're parents of six sevenyear olds Roblox yes or no.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
I say yes.
Here's why yes because inunderstanding the generational
differences between ourgeneration and their generation,
the generation that's we'reraising right now would much
prefer and it sees on a regularbasis to be in the electronic
space and communicate, hang outand have friends.
Psychologically, you don't wantthat.
(33:25):
You want them to have realworld interactions and deal with
adversity and things like that.
So there has to to be a balance.
But what Roblox does is itcreates that online area where
to facilitate their growth.
Through that, when my childrenwere playing Roblox, they'd
fostered their ability to docertain things and we'd made
(33:45):
them go out and see the realworld, touch the real, you know,
let the real sun hit their faceand all of the rest of those
things.
But if I had not let her dothat, the child that she was
growing into be my youngestdaughter.
So I'm talking to you about nowshe grew in.
She loves dungeons and dragons,which is, by nature, is the
where you go and you have to bewith other people.
(34:05):
You're doing thingsface-to-face contact.
You go and you have to be withother people.
You're doing thingsface-to-face contact.
So she grew into some of thosethings.
But when we talk about Roblox.
The yes is because it helpsfoster their connections.
They can build relationshipswith their peers.
And I'm very careful to saythat, because this is where the
(34:26):
bad side comes in, this is wherethe hesitancy comes in.
Roblox, by nature, is an onlinecollaborative community, but,
just like with anything else,once something goes out there to
make something great orsomething facilitated, there's
always that negative aspect.
And the funny thing is, whenyou look at what they're doing
and how they're doing it,they're not necessarily doing
(34:47):
something wrong.
They just found a way toexploit the system.
So Roblox has a chat feature,roblox has a call feature.
Roblox has different things.
You can look at everything.
And if the child, if the personon the other end could coerce
the child into giving themsomething that they need to meet
up offline or get details andthings like that, you have a
(35:07):
larger problem.
So when you think about givingthe child roadblocks the yeses
for that, but then you growthwith guardrails, like we talked
about.
What sort of chats are theydoing?
What sort of parental controlscan I put on there?
What sort of things can I lookat?
Can I?
You know, I'm going to walk bymy child or sit over their
(35:28):
shoulder for at least the first20, 30 minutes.
Or you can only play Roblox ifwe're all in the living room and
I'm looking at your iPad andI'm looking at you play Roblox
on the iPad.
If you're in an online chat,you're playing it on your
speakers, not your headphones,because I'm listening to what
the conversation is, and when Ihear that errant voice of
somebody that's not supposed tobe there, we don't do that.
The other thing that we did waswe told our children, if you
(35:53):
are going to in real, in reallife, in IRL, right In IRL, we
have to meet.
If you're going over tosomeone's house, you can't go
over there until we meet theparents.
I don't, I don't need to go.
We don't need to have anin-depth conversation, have a
dinner party or anything elselike that, but I need to shake
your hand and see your home, andI will, because in my mind, I'm
gathering information about whoyou are and what type of
(36:16):
environment am I bringing mychild or letting my child go
into?
Same thing with online.
If you can't.
If you're in an online chat andevery name in there, you can't
point to their picture in youryearbook, or you can't point or
tell me, that's Susie Brown orthat's Jimmy Timmy, whatever the
you know, you can't point thatthey're in your class and tell
me now you know what period arethey in what?
(36:37):
How do you know?
What classes do you have?
What are you all studying?
Hey Timmy, what were you?
What do you?
What did you learn about todayin class?
So now I'm trusting, but I'mverifying that this is actually
someone you know, because that'swhat happens is, especially
with young men and young women,the online, the allure of the
(37:01):
NSFW stuff.
How do I get that?
I'm going to send them apicture that entices them in one
way or another.
And then, because the childthinks that they're talking to
this person on the other side,whatever you got their, whatever
got their juices flowing that'show the lure starts and they
start reeling them in.
So when you start askingquestions, like, okay, and that
person out there can't answerthose questions, well, you don't
know my child Immediately done,that's it Blocked and we move
(37:23):
on right.
And so when you start lookingat those aspects and Roblox is
just one of those you've gotTikToks and YouTube anywhere
that they can communicate orsomeone can communicate with
your child the same danger ispresent.
Roblox is you have youngerchildren getting on there and
the parents think, ok, I'm justgoing to give you the iPad,
(37:45):
you're going to play Roblox, andthere's six or seven.
There is even things out therefrom a YouTube perspective.
There was a where there's avideo and it was like a
Teletubby video or somethingalong the lines, geared towards
that age group, and it was setso that the algorithm of YouTube
it was there.
The dangerous part came inright after the algorithm would
(38:05):
have kicked in and it taughtkids what's called the suicide
song oh yeah, I heard about that.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
Did your kids ever encounter something like that?
Did you ever hear that?
Speaker 2 (38:16):
yes, yeah, yeah, definitely so that my daughter
was on youtube kids and and youknow we started hearing this we
immediately went and looked atsome of those things.
I was ahead of it because I wasalways, you know, I started.
You started getting really intocybersecurity at the time.
So my younger two, or myyounger one, my daughter, she
did not get any of that.
My older two, my older boys,had some of that as we were
(38:39):
getting my feet wet there.
But if you have people out therethat are looking to break what,
they know how it works and thenthey did it to get past the
security measures and I'm notgoing to say that's on YouTube
or Google or whoever to figureall of this out, because all
they're doing is the same thingwe talk about users doing.
That's shadow IT.
I can't predict how someone isgoing to use it.
(39:03):
I can try to do every which way, but I can tell you now there's
11 Saw movies.
I could not have thought of howmany different ways to make
people die in those movies thatthese, these writers do, right.
So there's somebody out therethinking about how to do the
things that they're doing.
I'm not that person, so I don'tthink along those same lines,
but I can think I'm going to domy best effort when I learn
(39:24):
about we're going to prevent it.
So that's how I think about thecompanies.
They're, they're, they're doingmore, they're trying to be
proactive.
But if I've got somebody whosepurpose is to help kids figure
out how to commit suicide theright way, and they, but I I'm
not, I'm not seeing that.
So how, how it was caught, wasthat the parent was watching
over the child and they saw itover their shoulder or they
(39:45):
heard it over their shoulder,and it's like, ok, now I need to
investigate.
So that's where you have thetools, the controls, and then
you set boundaries as the parentto monitor, trust but verify.
How are we looking at?
How are we doing these things?
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Yeah, yeah, well, we didn't get to the grandparents
and the girlfriend and all theother people that we need to
protect, but I think this was areally good conversation about
how to protect our kids, andespecially starting with the
devices, namely the phone.
So, marcus, I think this is thefirst of many conversations.
(40:20):
This is an official invite backto Cybernomics.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
Thank you, sir.
I appreciate the time.
I will definitely be back.
I enjoyed the conversation.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
If people want to follow you or find you, how can
they do that?
Yes, I, sir, I appreciate thetime I will definitely be back.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
I enjoyed the conversation.
If people want to follow you orfind you, how can they do that?
Yes, I am on LinkedIn.
I have an Instagram account,but I have no idea I use that to
watch videos, so I am not onthere regularly, but on LinkedIn
you can find me.
Marcus Pete, all one word atthe end of the URL.
That's how you can find me.
Or if you're here in theAtlanta area, I'm going to be
around at many of the networkingevents, so feel free to look me
(40:52):
up and we can hang out or havecoffee.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
And if you break your arm or dislocate your shoulder,
check out PT Solutions.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
Definitely, we are ready to assist and help you
become unstoppable, awesome.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
Thank you for listening to this episode of
Cybernomics.
I'm Josh Bruning.
If you want to find me, you cancheck me out on LinkedIn.
Just search Josh BruningB-R-U-Y-N-I-N-G.
And if you want to learn moreabout Bruning Media and what we
do, check out bruningcomB-R-U-Y-N-I-N-Gcom.
Thanks again for listening to
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