March 8, 2025 • 62 mins
This week on Cycling Over Sixty, host Tom Butler dives into the world of Functional Threshold Power (FTP) testing. He shares his personal experience with his first FTP test and unveils his 6-component plan to ensure reliable and effective fitness tracking. Learn how he plans to use FTP as a key metric for his cycling journey. In a creative twist, Tom welcomes Jesse Ferguson to produce a special segment exploring the unique charm of bicycle barge tours. Immerse yourself in the sights and sounds of picturesque landscapes, gentle canals, and the joy of cycling alongside a floating home. Tune in for fitness insights and a virtual European adventure!
Music in this episode by Wintergatan: Head to wintergatan.net to download your free copy of the album!
Links
Huffing and Puffing Great American Ride Signup - Password -GAR2025
runsignup.com/Race/Register/RaceGroup-1742637?raceId=92970
"FTP cycling: What is it, how to calculate, how to test and how to use for training" - Rinasclta Blog - rinascltabike.com/cycling/training/ftp/
"Accurate FTP by Age to Measure Power and Endurance": trumelabs.com/blog/ftp-chart/?srsltid=AfmBOoq-0Z6QEu8urSrBsWAUNXyeVQDmZ8PKtP9gAsIwsijIJeNmlg7u
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Show music is "Come On Out" by Dan Lebowitz. Find him here : lebomusic.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tom Butler (00:04):
This is the Cycling Over 60 podcast, season three,
episode 20, barging in on theNetherlands, and I'm your host,
tom Butler.
I'm looking forward toparticipating in a fundraising
(00:26):
activity this spring.
I want to thank Anita Elder forinviting me to join her for
what's called the Great AmericanRide to benefit Rails to Trails
.
The ride is a virtual teamevent.
As a team, you have from April5th to June 6th to try to
complete 3,700 miles of riding.
This is to simulate a rideacross the US on the Great
(00:46):
American Rail Trail.
Please consider joining us onTeam Huffing and Puffing.
The sign-up fee is $50 andsupports the work of Rails to
Trails to create anever-expanding network of
awesome paths.
I'll put a link to the Huffingand Puffing team page in the
show notes.
I want to thank Sean and Jeanfor joining me this week on the
Thursday Zoom call.
I had a great time learningabout Jean's cycling journey.
(01:09):
Sean also joined me for whatI'm calling the Zwift Thursday
ride and I really appreciate hisencouragement.
As we did the 17-mile route, Iwould love to have you join me
next Thursday at 3 pm.
You can find my email in theshow notes to get a Zoom link.
To join the Zwift ride you needto be a member of the Zwift
(01:30):
Cycling Over 60 Club.
Whether you join the ride ornot, I'm looking forward to
meeting as many of you aspossible on Zoom.
This week I did an FTP test onZwift.
I used the 20-minute standardtest.
If you aren't familiar with theformat of the Zwift 20-minute
FTP test, it gives a gradualwarm-up followed by a hard
5-minute section to fire up thelegs, then a slight easy section
followed by a prompt to go allout for 20 minutes.
(01:51):
I was really hurting for thewhole 20 minutes, but I guess
that means it was a good look atmy ability.
I decided to keep my heart ratearound 160 beats per minute.
I mostly accomplished that, butI did hit 166 beats per minute
at some point.
I ended up with 191 watts beingsustained over the 20 minutes.
(02:11):
I was pretty happy with thatuntil I pulled up the workout on
Strava and realized it was onlythe second best power output
I've done for 20 minutes.
I previously hit 194 watts.
For that time when I did the194 watts, I did hit a higher
heart rate, so I guess I waspushing a little harder.
I'm not sure that comparing the191 watts ride and the 194
(02:38):
watts ride is comparing applesto apples.
So for now I'm going with the191 watt result, and that
translates to an estimated FTPof 181.
So that gives me something tocompare future efforts with.
But I had to wonder if that istrue, is FTP a good measure for
(03:00):
my strength and endurance, anddoes my age impact how
meaningful FTP is as a realisticmetric?
Let's dig into that a littlebit.
Ftp stands for functionalthreshold power.
It is meant to be the highestaverage power you can sustain
for approximately an hour.
So my 20 minute output of 191watts is believed to translate
(03:23):
to me being able to hold 181watts for an hour.
That is one of the first thingsI'm curious about.
I feel 100% confident that Icouldn't have held 191 watts for
an hour, but even 181 watts foran hour seems like it would be
a lot.
While I haven't tried to pushit for a whole hour on Zwift,
(03:43):
the most I have done from apower perspective is 153 watts
over an hour.
Again, that makes 181 wattssound like a lot, but at some
point I'm going to get on andclip in and just really see what
I can do.
Here's the physiological basisfor FTP.
As exercise intensity increases.
There's a shift from primarilyanaerobic metabolism to a
(04:08):
greater reliance on anaerobicmetabolism.
Anaerobic meaning that youaren't getting enough oxygen to
the muscles to use a source likefat for energy.
Anaerobic literally meanswithout oxygen.
When your body is utilizingglucose in an anaerobic
environment, lactate is producedas a byproduct.
Now, if you want to hear adiscussion of lactate buildup,
(04:30):
listen to the episode onSeptember 5th 2023.
It's called Maybe Not ZoneTraining.
Ftp is seen as an estimate ofthe highest power output that a
person can maintain in a steadystate without excess lactate
accumulation.
It is meant to relate closelyto lactate threshold, or the
(04:51):
point at which you areaccumulating lactate in the
blood faster than it can beremoved.
You typically see a significantincrease in respiration when
you hit that lactate threshold.
One of the criticisms of FTP isthat it's just an estimate and
not an actual measure of lactatebuildup.
However, to measure lactate inthe blood would require a blood
(05:13):
test and I'm not going to drawblood at home as I'm on the
trainer Plus.
Lactate in the blood is reallyan indirect measure.
To actually measure lactatebuildup in the muscles would
take a muscle biopsy, obviously.
That is precisely why FTP isused, even though it is only an
approximation of lactatethreshold.
(05:34):
I do feel comfortable with FTPin general as a fitness level
evaluation tool, but morespecifically, I would like to
know two things.
First, how is my fitness inrelation to others my age?
And secondly, is FTP a good wayof tracking my fitness gains?
You could argue that, comparingmyself to others, my age isn't
(05:55):
important.
Who cares how I compare, aslong as I'm fit right.
However, I'm trying to assesswhether or not I have a problem
with the way I utilize energy.
The only way that I candetermine if I have a problem or
not is by comparing my fitnessgains with others.
I'll come back to this, butfirst I want to talk about FTP
being a way that I canaccurately compare how I'm
(06:19):
advancing in fitness from monthto month.
I'm fairly confident that FTPcan be used as a way of
assessing how I'm improving,with some considerations.
First, ftp can be impacted by anumber of factors.
These include environmentalfactors and also my mental and
physical state.
For example, if I get a badnight's sleep before a test, it
(06:40):
could affect the results.
If I don't fuel appropriatelyor if I don't have enough
electrolytes, it could reducethe results If I don't fuel
appropriately or if I don't haveenough electrolytes, it could
reduce my FTP.
Therefore, I need to figure outhow to do FTP testing with as
much consistency as possible.
Here is my plan for gettingreliable results.
First, using the indoor trainereliminates a lot of
(07:00):
environmental factors.
I don't think I'd be able tocompare what power I was
generating on the bike on theroad, but using the same bike on
the same trainer providesconsistency.
A second part of the plan is topick a time in the early
morning and stick with it.
That way the heat won't be anissue at any time of the year,
(07:22):
because I believe beingoverheated would reduce my FTP.
So I want to be consistent withdoing my FTP test at 6 30 am.
The third part of the plan istake the same amount of
carbohydrates the day beforeevery test and then, along with
that, eat the same breakfast atthe same time.
For me that means finishingbreakfast at 6.15 to give 15
(07:45):
minutes before the start of thetest.
It's important to me because Ithink it does matter how much
stored glycogen I have for theFTP test and again, finding a
way to be consistent with thatbecause obviously if I'm running
out of fuel it's going toreally impact the test results,
while using the trainer as acomponent.
Using Zwift provides a fourthcomponent of consistency in my
(08:08):
mind, and that's because thetest is conducted the same way
each time.
It's the same warm-up and thesame resistant mechanism for the
20-minute segment.
A fifth component is to get agood night's sleep.
That just means getting to bedon time, but I think it also
means getting a good night'ssleep the night before as well.
(08:28):
If I was going to participatein a serious sports event, I
would be getting at least twogood nights rest.
So again for me to be seriousabout consistency with the FTP
test, I should do the same.
A sixth component iselectrolyte intake test.
I should do the same.
A sixth component iselectrolyte intake.
Now I don't think I have myelectrolyte replenishment
(08:49):
strategy 100% worked out yet.
However, I need to make sure myperformance isn't limited by
the lack of electrolytes.
Once I have it dialed in, Ineed to be consistent with
electrolytes for the test.
Before I started using Zwift, Idepended upon Strava segment
times to determine if I wasgetting stronger, but I think
that FTP ends up to be a waymore reliable comparison.
(09:10):
It might not be a 100% accurateview of my fitness level, but I
think it's pretty close.
I think it can be a more usefulway to assess what progress I
make.
As long as I do these sixthings I mentioned, it is
interesting to me to see how Istack up to others.
Ftp is impacted by age, so Iwant to compare myself to others
, my age To be honest.
(09:32):
I actually want to see that Ihave the FTP of a younger person
.
I feel like I'm in better shapethan I was easily in my 40s and
maybe even in my 30s, and I'dlike FTP to kind of validate
that.
I put my 20 minute watts valuefrom the Zwift test into a
calculator and it classified meas quote untrained, slash,
(09:55):
non-racer.
Those categories were not agespecific and they're from a book
by Dr Andrew Coggan titledTraining and Racing with a Power
Meter.
Using the calculator atformbeatcom, my 181 estimated
FTP or 2.0 watts per kilogramscore puts me in what they call
(10:17):
the novice category.
So I'd have to say being anuntrained novice doesn't sound
fantastic.
Being an untrained novicedoesn't sound fantastic.
Trumslabscom says that FTPtends to drop by 5% to 8% per
decade with age.
The one chart that I could findthat looked at age didn't give
a source for the information,but I think it also came from
(10:39):
Andrew Coggan.
The average FTP for men over 60was listed at 1.5 to 2.5 watts
per kilogram.
So based on that, I'm averagefor my age.
(10:59):
The 50 to 59 average FTP islisted as 2 to 3 watts per
kilogram.
I guess you could argue that Icould be classified as average
for someone 10 years youngerthan me, and that feels a little
better.
Based on this, I'm going tobuild up to a 2.5 watts per
kilogram FTP.
That seems like a reallydifficult goal at this point,
but I will see what happens thenext time I do the FTP test.
Even if I've moved just alittle bit closer to 2.5 watts
(11:23):
per kilogram, I will beencouraged.
The truth of the matter is thatI continue to be surprised
about how much I can increase mystrength and endurance, even
now, at 62 years old.
One of the issues that I'm mostanxious to figure out is just
how much my poor pancreaticfunction is interfering with my
FTP.
I noticed something interestingwhen I was riding with my
(11:47):
daughter and we were climbing ahill.
She started breathing reallyhard, and that means her body
was trying to clear out lactate,but I wasn't breathing at all.
However, my legs wereabsolutely on fire.
It's like my muscles werescreaming for fuel and they
couldn't get any.
I'm suspecting that this isbecause my body isn't producing
(12:08):
enough insulin to effectivelymove glucose from my bloodstream
to my muscle cells.
Without that glucose, mymuscles have to result to less
efficient ways to generateenergy, which creates that
burning sensation becausethere's a buildup of other
metabolic byproducts.
My low respiration is kind of asupport for this view.
(12:30):
If I'm not producing energy asefficiently, my body doesn't
need to take in as much oxygenand there's not as much lactate
to try to eliminate.
I've wondered about this before,but I think it's time to dig in
and figure it out.
I've wondered about this before, but I think it's time to dig
in and figure it out.
And there are other indicationsthat my performance is being
hindered by low insulin releaseon long rides.
(12:51):
If I can figure out a way toget more insulin in during hard
workout sessions, it might bethat doing an FTP test would be
easier for me because I might befueled better than I have been
in a long time, and of coursethat can make a really
significant difference in my FTPscore.
I'm really interested to hearif any of you have experienced
(13:14):
low insulin levels when doinglong rides.
It just seems obvious thatthat's a huge factor.
I'm wondering if anyonelistening has type 1 diabetes.
I'd really like to know whatyou do to manage blood glucose,
especially on long rides.
Ultimately, I'm excited that Idid my first FTP test and I'm
(13:35):
looking forward to learning whatI can learn and repeating the
tests in the future.
And, like I said, I'm reallyhappy that I can still improve.
I can still get stronger and Ican still improve.
I can still get stronger and Ican still have more endurance.
If you have listened to thepodcast for a while, you will
(13:59):
recognize the person who'sjoining me today.
Thank you, jesse Ferguson, forbeing a part of this episode.
Jesse Ferguson (14:04):
Tom, I'm exploding with excitement for
what I get to show to you.
Tom Butler (14:09):
That's awesome, and I am looking for ways to mix it
up from time to time when itcomes to what you hear here on
the podcast, so I've invitedJesse to take on this episode.
Jesse is easily one of the mostcreative people I know, so,
jesse, it's time for you toreveal what cool thing you've
created here.
Jesse Ferguson (14:30):
I found something to tell you and your
listeners about.
It involves a couple members ofmy family and a trumpet player.
So can I take you on anadventure Like if your eardrums
were the wheels of a bike?
100%, I'm ready for it.
(14:52):
Does that make sense?
Not really, okay.
Tom Butler (14:56):
But I'm ready to roll, I'm ready to have my
eardrums roll.
Jesse Ferguson (14:59):
Yeah, okay, you get it, you get it.
Tom Butler (15:07):
So I'm hearing this, but where are we?
Jesse Ferguson (15:12):
We just completed a train ride from the
airport in Amsterdam out to acanal, where there's a riverboat
waiting for us.
And here's the exciting partStrapped to our backpacks are
our bike helmets.
We are going on a cruise.
Judson Scott (15:36):
I've only been on two cruises in my life and the
first one was for a friend'swedding and I felt like I had
been locked in a mall for theweekend and I wasn't allowed out
.
It was sort of that level likethe whole.
For me, the whole thing waskind of that mediocre.
You know the food, what youcould do, and of course the
(16:00):
friend's wedding was awesome andthat was great, but the
experience I don't get it.
It's just not for me and thiswas completely not that.
Tom Butler (16:11):
You recognize this voice, tom, I sure do.
I know that to be Judson Hi,judson Scott Because I get to
see Judson in real life and alsoI've had him on the podcast
numerous times, so other peopleprobably recognize that voice
too.
Actually, judson, if you go allthe way back to December 1st of
2023, you'll hear an episodethat I did with Judson where he
(16:34):
talks about how cycling had sucha huge impact in his health.
Jesse Ferguson (16:40):
Yeah, so I visited Judson at the school of
music at the university of Pugetsound.
I think we can go up to mytrumpet studio.
Judson Scott (16:48):
The cruise that he apparently loved was a bike
tour where I, you know, givetrouble lessons here, and I
think it'll be quiet enough.
Tom Butler (16:58):
Well, I'm so glad that you talked to him about
that, because I have not heardhow that bike cruise went for
him.
Jesse Ferguson (17:03):
It's going to take me about five minutes to
get set up.
Okay, that's okay, yep.
Tom Butler (17:06):
How would you define what a bike cruise is?
Jesse Ferguson (17:10):
I could answer that, but I would rather have
this woman answer it.
I've been five times.
This is Carrie Ferguson, who'sactually my mom.
Carrie Ferguson (17:22):
With bike and barge hauling tours.
We take off in the morning andwe have our lunch with us and we
go a certain distance and wemeet up with the boat in a
different place and the boatmoves during the day while we're
out.
But other companies do it alittle bit different.
Tom Butler (17:41):
I'm thinking that the staff probably enjoy times
when everybody's off the boatand they kind of are there by
themselves.
Judson Scott (17:48):
You could be on the boat if you wanted to be.
Jesse Ferguson (17:50):
Now Judson went on a tour with a different
company called Boat Bike Tours.
Judson Scott (17:56):
There were some people who the cycling was just
too much for, and so you couldjust stay on the boat, which,
and, as boats go, it was kind ofbeautiful, and or you could
just spend the whole day on thebike and you were seeing all
these beautiful towns in theNetherlands and it was really
(18:16):
quite magical.
Carrie Ferguson (18:17):
A lot of companies only take one week
tours.
Bike and Barge takes two weektours, and one day in the middle
of all of that is a free daywhere you're not riding but you
have an extended time to see aninteresting city, like we've
stopped in Leiden or in Denbergor in Leeuwarden.
Jesse Ferguson (18:38):
The Netherlands, often referred to as Holland,
is a country located innorthwestern Europe.
It's known for its flatlandscape, extensive canal
systems, windmills, tulip fieldsand cycling routes.
Now Judson toured on boat biketours.
It is a larger company, butthere are others, one of which
(18:58):
started quite a while back.
Lowry Snow (19:01):
My parents started the company over 30 years ago.
Jesse Ferguson (19:04):
Tom, this guy, I don't expect you to know.
Lowry Snow (19:08):
Lowry Snow, and my wife and I are the owners of
Bike and Barge Holland Tours.
My father did a bike trip toEurope and loved it.
So he somehow secured a bargefor the following year and was a
(19:28):
member of Cascade Bike Club atthe time, and so he rounded up
enough guys to fill it and wentand actually he his idea was
that was a way to get a freebike trip to Europe.
So that kind of worked for himand and everybody had a good
time.
So the next year he did acouple of trips and the next
(19:51):
year maybe three, and he keptadding and adding until he got
to a dozen or so, and that's howit grew.
Jesse Ferguson (19:58):
So this is where I really wanted to have a
little help explaining the trips, because I actually haven't
personally been on one.
Lucy Shaw (20:06):
Hello, I am Lucy Shaw .
Jesse Ferguson (20:10):
This woman is very important to me and to my
mom.
Lucy Shaw (20:15):
I am Jesse's grandmother.
Jesse Ferguson (20:18):
So the company she discovered was Bike and
Barge Holland Tours.
Lucy Shaw (20:22):
When I retired at age 65, I joined a little.
I hadn't ridden a bike much atall since I was a teenager, but
I joined up sort of an informalbike group near where I lived
and one of the women was fromthe Netherlands.
She had recommended the bikeand barge to a group of her
(20:45):
friends and they started talkingabout how wonderful the barge
trips were in Holland and Idecided I'd like to try it.
So in another year or so I gottogether a group of folks and we
signed up and went on a bikeand barge trip.
For the next 18 years I went oneight different tours,
(21:10):
different routes each time, butin all those times I went with
other folks that I knew,sometimes three or four of us
and sometimes 20 of us together.
Jesse Ferguson (21:21):
When my grandma said she was going on a bike and
barge tour, I was like why?
What in the world?
In my head I had this pictureof a barge piled with, like old,
rusty bikes, you know.
Judson Scott (21:33):
It's a barge, it's a river barge.
Tom Butler (21:35):
That's Judson.
Again, I don't think ofsomething luxurious.
I have a tendency, when I thinkof a barge, think of something
that like they drag trash awayfrom the city on.
Jesse Ferguson (21:45):
Yeah, some huge rusty block of metal thing Right
.
Judson Scott (21:49):
European style barge, not American style barge.
Jesse Ferguson (21:53):
What's the difference there?
Judson Scott (21:54):
Well, american style barge is kind of wide and
flat and a European barge ismore like a boat.
That's just sits a little lowso it can get under bridges, but
it looks way more like a boatthan you would think of as a
barge here in America.
Anyway, so the boat we were on,it was like 100 years old and
(22:19):
during World War II they hadtaken it off into this marshy
area and scuttled it, sunk it,so the Nazis couldn't use it.
Wow, couldn't, like you know,take it.
And so then after the war theyfloated again.
There were 34 of us, 32.
32 of us and passengers, sevencrew, and it was just pretty
(22:46):
perfect.
You know the cabins are alittle small, but it would be
everything you'd need.
Everyone's got a bathroomattached to their cabin and, you
know, whatever you don't reallywant to be sitting in your
cabin.
Anyway, it's a beautiful boat,so it was just lovely to walk
onto it.
Lucy Shaw (23:01):
After we got back from our bike ride, each day
we'd have a wonderful dinnerserved, and then after dinner,
an hour or so later, we wouldhave a meeting with our guides,
who would tell us what the nextday trip was going to be like,
and at that time we would haveplenty of time to visit with
(23:23):
other folks and really getacquainted and share stories
from the day with everybody.
Jesse Ferguson (23:30):
The boat itself is like 100 feet long and
there's room on deck for all thebikes to be lined up.
They have cover for them sothey don't get wet in the rain.
But the first night that you'reon there you really focus on
just getting settled in.
Lucy Shaw (23:43):
In the morning we would hear all about our
bicycles.
So we felt quite comfortableand at home right away and I
believe we had a meal thatevening in the dining room and
got a little better acquainted.
Jesse Ferguson (23:57):
I want to pause the discussion of logistics and
focus on what is it that peoplelove about this so much?
Lucy Shaw (24:09):
We were for the most part bicycling down in the
lowland, which of course inHolland is below sea level.
We would have to get up ontothe dike in this one area, which
was one of the biggest dikesprotecting the country from the
(24:31):
sea, the country from the sea.
And it was quite a huff andpuff ride getting up the little
road onto the dike because wewere used to flat riding by then
.
And we got up there and thisagain was in the springtime but
the wind was just howling.
(24:52):
Whoo, the wind was just howling.
And of course we had to ride aways along that on the roadway
which goes on top of the dikeand it was kind of difficult
riding against the wind butluckily it didn't have to be up
(25:16):
there for too long.
The water's a deep, deep bluecolor and rolling at that time
because it was windy and loudand beautiful and washes up on
the beach with a slam-bangsplash Just kind of sent tingles
(25:51):
down your back to see the forceof nature here.
Tom Butler (26:00):
Absolutely beautiful .
Jesse Ferguson (26:04):
I would love all the exercise and all the
physical stuff and being therewith the wind and the waves and
everything.
But there's a really strongdraw to these bike tours in
Holland because there are somany fascinating things you get
to see like an experience.
Carrie Ferguson (26:23):
Holland is part of the Netherlands.
Jesse Ferguson (26:25):
This is my mom again.
She's a very observant andcurious kind of a person.
Carrie Ferguson (26:30):
There's North Holland and South Holland are
two of the states.
In the Netherlands.
They call them provinces.
I really like the North-SouthHolland route that takes you in
a big circle around down intoSouth Holland and up into North
Holland and back to Amsterdamagain.
It takes you to some uniqueheritage sites and places that
(26:50):
are well-known, like Harlem,where the Ten Boom family lived.
Corrie Ten Boom is prettyfamous.
Take you to Delft, where theDelft factory is, where they
make Delft pottery, delft tiles.
You see Kinderdijk, which is aWorld Heritage Site with 19
original windmills along awaterway.
(27:11):
You get to see Rotterdam, whichis one of the biggest cities in
the Netherlands.
You get to see Leiden, whichwas the birthplace of Rembrandt.
Tom Butler (27:18):
What comes to my mind is could I see inside any
of those windmills?
Carrie Ferguson (27:24):
Oh yeah, we've been inside working windmills
and it's really cool to go allthe way up inside to the very
top where the working gears are,and there's one windmill that
you can go in.
That is a lifting windmill.
The wind is blowing the fins upon the top, which are going
(27:53):
down and around.
You can see the fins up on thetop which are going down, and
around.
You can see the water beinglifted by way of an Archimedes
screw, which is underneath, andso that's pretty loud with all
the sounds of the water goingthrough, and so you're hearing
the whooshing of that.
You're hearing the low rumbleof the.
(28:14):
You're hearing the low rumbleof the.
There's a beam that is verticalin the middle of the windmill,
which is about 18 inches squareand goes from the screw all the
way up to the top where the windis pushing it around.
As that beam is spinning, thenthere are gears that change the
(28:36):
direction of the force to theArchimedes screw.
Judson Scott (28:44):
You would cycle by these houses that it's like.
I don't know is that a castleor is that a house?
There's not necessarily abright line there.
Jesse Ferguson (28:53):
Our country is so much younger as far as like
developing large buildings isconcerned.
We just don't get thatexperience here of being
confused If it's a castle or not.
Judson Scott (29:04):
Right, right, we did stop at a medieval castle in
.
Okay, these all mypronunciations are just going to
be out the window, so I'm justapologize, anyway.
So we stopped in Münden at theMöderschlacht.
It's a castle in Münden.
It was open to the public.
You paid something, anadmission fee, and they, you
(29:26):
know, they had armor around andyou know you could see where the
king or the duke or whoeverlived there.
Like, okay, here's where thetoilet was that just dropped
into the moat.
You know, it was pretty.
Anyway, it's, our lives are somuch better now than they would
have been, like even if you werea king back then.
(29:47):
Like the way we live now is isah, there's, you know, indoor
plumbing it.
It's a thing to praise.
Jesse Ferguson (29:56):
So apparently in these tours there's the option
of doing your own tour, likejust following GPS.
But I think it would be morepractical to do that if you
actually knew the language.
Carrie Ferguson (30:07):
I mean, I'm just imagining being out there
trying to find you know waterand you don't know how to talk
to the people.
I wish I knew how to speakDutch originally before I
started going.
I am learning Dutch now and Ican converse with certain people
in Dutch.
Most of the people know someEnglish, unless you get out of
the main areas, but a lot of thesmaller shops that you might
(30:30):
want to go in and maybe ask forsomething or say something to
the people who work there,especially older people, and
they really appreciate it.
Even if you're not speakingreally good Dutch, they'll
correct you and they'll smileand tell you that they
understand you just fine.
Jesse Ferguson (30:47):
So maybe my mom could do a GPS trip, um, and
she's.
She's been learning Dutch forlike two years now, but I feel
like if or when I go or we go,which would be awesome, I think
I'd miss out on some of theintellectual experience you know
, without a guide.
Lucy Shaw (31:04):
Our hosts and our guides were all native from
Holland, so they knew the area,but they also spoke all of them
very good English, sometimeswith a little accent.
It was hard for us to get usedto the guides are.
Judson Scott (31:20):
they're very nice, they have lots of knowledge,
interesting things to tell youabout, and so you know we'd ride
for half an hour.
They'd stop, people would getsome water and rest, and you
would stop at something thatthey would tell you about.
You know whether it was acastle or um, a statue or
(31:41):
whatever.
You know.
They had an endless supply ofstories.
What?
Tom Butler (31:48):
did you?
What were some of the thingsthat you came away from this,
that you felt transformed yourdesire to go on a bike trip this
way?
Jesse Ferguson (32:02):
There was a story that the owner of Bike and
Barge Holland Tours shared.
It was about that they wereexpecting there to be a ferry.
Lowry Snow (32:15):
One time we were looking for a ferry to cross the
river and couldn't find one.
Jesse Ferguson (32:20):
They had planned .
You know, like part of theroute that day was they're going
to get on the small ferry andgo across some body of water and
, like something was wrong, itwas canceled, and so they had
this group of bicyclists on theshore and they're like Is that
why we can't get across here?
And so the guide rode aroundand talked to people.
Lowry Snow (32:38):
And the guide found somebody that lived there that
had a rowboat, and so they rodeeverybody, two at a time, across
the river with their bikes sothat they could continue the
tour for the next I don't knowhalf an hour hour.
Jesse Ferguson (32:52):
This guy was manually rowing them across and
he was just like I'm takingbicycles, you know um, which,
you know, set them back a littlein time.
Lowry Snow (33:00):
But hey, it was a great story.
Jesse Ferguson (33:01):
So that kind of thing to me is adventure and
stuff that you can't plan for.
Like we talked about that.
You know that to me was likereally interesting, you know,
like what do you do?
Because you have to to get towhere the barge is, you know,
and so that's one thing that Iwas like man, I really want to
(33:23):
have an adventure like this.
Lowry Snow (33:24):
You can't plan for everything, and it's the
unexpected that becomes the funand the stories that people
remember.
Tom Butler (33:32):
So you like the concept that maybe it can't all
be a hundred percent planned andorganized.
There's still that room tocreate something on the fly.
Jesse Ferguson (33:44):
Yeah, I mean, and it doesn't always have to be
something as significant aninterruption as that.
Lowry Snow (33:51):
Another time I can remember we rode into a town on
a Sunday morning and everythingwas closed and we were looking
for a coffee stop and we cameacross a lady right on the edge
of town and asked her if sheknew of anything in town or in
the next town that might be open.
And she thought for a minute.
(34:12):
She said I can't think ofanything, but I feel terrible
about that.
She says why don't you come in?
And she took us through herhouse and out into her garden
and she served us all coffee andtea and cookies and at the same
time told us, um, uh, thehistory of their town and the
architecture earner husbandhappened to be architect, so she
was the old architecture.
(34:33):
So it was a great time.
Tom Butler (34:35):
how cool yeah, it's too bad.
They can't guarantee you'llhave some unscripted or
unplanned adventure.
Jesse Ferguson (34:42):
I'm under the impression that every tour has
them.
I mean, you're in an amazingland for that many days, so
you're bound to run intoadventures and stuff,
complications, you know.
Plus, each of the three peoplethat I spoke with had stories.
Some of them were silly, someof them were somber.
Lucy Shaw (35:00):
One of the fun parts for me was stopping at lunchtime
and we packed our lunch andtook our lunch with us and and
picnicked for lunchtime.
And sometimes it was in a nicelittle park and I remember one
one park that had a a zip lineof all things and some of our
(35:21):
people were riding on this zipline and that could.
That could be pretty funny,especially when they one of them
fell off at the end and thatwas pretty funny just because it
happened to somebody else andnot myself was this another
(35:44):
person who was retired already?
Jesse Ferguson (35:45):
Yes, okay, active group of people.
Carrie Ferguson (35:50):
There was a really brisk wind one day and we
were riding against it, and inthose kind of conditions our
guide tells us to ride closetogether and line up one behind
the other as a way, so that eachrider can kind of break the
wind for the other riders.
Jesse Ferguson (36:07):
You mean drafting.
Carrie Ferguson (36:10):
Yes, drafting.
I was riding along with a14-year-old who was with our
group on our tour thatparticular year and I told him
get in line behind the guide sothat the guide could break the
wind for him, which he did.
And then we went around a wideturn in the road and, um, the
(36:34):
wind was coming from a littlebit different direction and
there happened to be, uh, somecrop fertilization going on
there, which which really wasoverpowering.
Jesse Ferguson (36:44):
Was this one of the manure-based?
Carrie Ferguson (36:46):
Yes yes, and so Alex said I didn't know that
that's what you meant bybreaking the wind.
And we both almost fell off ourbikes laughing.
We rode into this little townand it turns out that they were
having a festival there that dayand that was really cool
(37:09):
because it was like a pumpkinsquash festival, so there was a
lot of people selling pumpkinsand squash, but there was also
garage sale kinds of sales andpeople selling their art.
I bought some art from thiswoman who was doing these really
colorful things with beeswaxart from this woman who was
doing these really colorfulthings with beeswax.
Tom Butler (37:29):
It sounds like there's just so much going on
that the tour company can'tpredict what cool stuff you
might come across.
Jesse Ferguson (37:33):
Yeah, but remember, it's not just the
events that you're seeing, it'salso the people.
Carrie Ferguson (37:38):
People, sorry.
Communicating with all kinds ofpeople is really fun.
We're eating lunch in a littleopen mall area and there was a
woman who walked by severaltimes and stopped and watched us
.
Finally, she came up and askedwhere we were from and asked a
few other questions and said Iwant you to come to tea at my
house.
And she said I'll tell youwhere I live.
(38:01):
My house is white with greentrim.
You can go there.
And she gave our guidedirections.
Unfortunately, we were not ableto do that, but it's really
funny because literally everyhouse in that part of the
country is white with green trim.
Judson Scott (38:16):
As it happened, there were a lot of Canadians on
this trip and so they deviatedfrom the normal path a little
bit to stop by the Canadiancemetery from World War II.
I believe Almost half of thetour were Canadian, so it was
kind of a moving stop for themand you know, just to see row on
(38:40):
row on row of crosses frompeople who never made it home.
One of the guides Ronald readIn Flanders Fields, which I
believe is actually about wardead from World War I, but
clearly appropriate, and I hadmy trumpet with me because I
(39:02):
take it everywhere and I've beenpracticing in the mornings, and
so they asked me to bring itout on this and to play the last
post, which is the Canadian andEuropean version of Taps.
Jesse Ferguson (39:16):
Just so we could hear it ourselves, I asked
Judson to play it for us as Irecorded him outside.
(39:51):
I could just imagine standingbeside rows and rows of graves.
You're overseas, You'resurrounded by this palpable
(40:14):
history.
Judson Scott (40:26):
And again, this is just another one of the
unplanned adventures on one ofthese trips.
Jesse Ferguson (40:30):
Yeah, so that was actually a very moving stop.
Yeah, that's beautiful that youhad your instrument and were
able to contribute to themourning of your fellow
shipmates.
Judson Scott (40:40):
Yes, I was.
They were a little tentativeabout asking, not wanting to
impose upon me in my time, but Iwas.
Yeah, no, I was.
I mean kind of any musicianwants to play.
Jesse Ferguson (40:56):
I think it's a good time for us to return to
talking about the logisticsagain.
How does this all work?
How do we get our rental?
Tom Butler (41:04):
bikes.
Okay, so here's the thing Iwould prefer to have my own bike
.
Jesse Ferguson (41:08):
Yeah, judson mentioned the idea of bringing
his own bike, but he was toldlike you're gonna like these
bikes better because if you hadyour bike, you'd be so much
faster than everybody else thatyou'd be waiting all the time.
And you're more upright, youget to see things better.
It's just, uh, it's a differentstyle of writing.
The stuff that they provide youhelps.
You have the experience thatyou're paying for.
Tom Butler (41:30):
I would least like to have my own helmet.
Well, you do bring your ownhelmet.
Lucy Shaw (41:34):
Yes, you have to take your helmet and, of course,
whatever cycling clothes arecomfortable for you and they
have quite a list of things youshould bring.
Carrie Ferguson (41:48):
They want us to send, like the length of our
inseam and our height anddifferent basic measurements
just a few.
And then they have rental bikesthat are pretty adjustable.
It doesn't always work.
They have a bike that they haveearmarked for us and they have
(42:09):
our name on it.
But things happen Like.
One of my friends, who happensto be rather short, was given a
bike that was too tall for herand she couldn't even straddle
it and someone had misread thenumbers that she'd put onto her
form.
But for the most part they'repretty adjustable.
(42:29):
The seat can be adjusted easilyand the handlebars have maybe
three different ways that theycan go, so that they can be
higher or further back.
Judson Scott (42:38):
And then when you got there, there were two guides
.
They made sure everybody's bikefit them and probably about
half the people had e-bikes andhalf the people had just regular
analog bikes.
The very first day we tried outour bikes, got them, you know,
sized for ourselves, and then wejust did like a 15-minute ride
(42:59):
around the harbor just to like,yeah, this bike works, it fits
you, this is going to be fine.
And a couple of people likeswitched out to e-bikes that day
.
Jesse Ferguson (43:09):
How far did you go each day?
Judson Scott (43:10):
There was usually a 20 mile route and maybe a 30
mile route.
Carrie Ferguson (43:16):
Yep, there are two separate rides.
One is a shorter ride, theother one's a longer ride.
The shorter ride usually hasextra stops and go a little bit
slower.
The longer ride might take alonger side trip over to see
something else that might beinteresting.
The shorter ride sometimes goesto museums or other places of
interest that the longer groupmisses because they're riding
(43:40):
for a longer distance.
Judson Scott (43:41):
And you know, maybe it would be 22 and 36 or
whatever, but you know, andwould be 22 and 36 or whatever.
But you know, and um, andbasically you had all day, so I
mean honestly, 20 miles overpotentially eight hours.
It's just not that much much.
Pedaling not sound very intenseand the and the groups would
just change daily, like you justwent with one guy to the other
(44:01):
and um, so one of them alwaysrode an analog bike and one of
them always rode an e-bike, andif your bike broke down, they
would give you their bike andthey would deal with the broken
bike.
And this happened to me.
Actually my bike was like I was.
When I first started.
I was like, man, this is not avery good bike.
(44:22):
And it just turned out I hadn'tnoticed that the disc brakes
were like on and they, they didnot release, and then it wasn't,
until I just sort ofaccidentally spun the wheel and
it stopped to me.
I was like, oh, there'ssomething up here.
This was like two or three daysin and so, um, so.
But then, you know, they fixedit and then it kind of happened
(44:43):
again and then they did a moreinvolved fix and then it was
totally fine for the rest of thetrip and then at night we come
back to the barge.
Hey, hi.
Carrie Ferguson (44:59):
We have a little bit of break.
We have time to take showersand get cleaned up and meet in
the dining hall for dinner.
And dinner is served indifferent ways depending on what
day it is.
Often it's a buffet where yougo by and take the food you want
(45:21):
, but on a fancy banquet nightthey might come and serve you at
the table and bring platters offood to the table to pass
around.
They accommodate dietary needs.
It's nice when the captainhappens to be a vegetarian,
because then the vegetarianmeals are good too Like.
Judson Scott (45:38):
I said they changed the itinerary to take
this little detour through theCanadian cemetery.
The itinerary to take thislittle detour through the
Canadian cemetery as it happened, my brother in law's birthday
was the second day, so theybaked a cake and they you know,
they just immediately adapted tothat situation.
It's sort of a bespoke lifethat you don't usually live, you
(46:00):
know to like have a group ofpeople, two guides, a captain, a
sailor and then maybe threewaitstaff, really just making
sure that you have a good time.
Yeah, that's not my normal life.
Jesse Ferguson (46:16):
It sounds like they do a great job at that.
The only problem is thateventually the trip has to end.
My mom had one word for this.
Carrie Ferguson (46:27):
Sad I'd like to word for this Sad.
I'd like to stay a little bitlonger, but also it's nice to
get home and sleep in my own bed.
I like to extend my trip out onone or both ends and do
something extra, like stop inIceland and do a couple tours or
see some of the sites therebefore heading on to the
(46:49):
Netherlands or afterwards.
Last time we stayed afterwardsand went to Berlin, and that was
really neat, since you'realready over there spending the
time and the money to have alittle bit more experience
without adding a whole lot morecost onto it.
Lowry Snow (47:08):
How much did it all cost?
Carrie Ferguson (47:11):
It seems like 3000 is about good for airfare,
and two and the tour is probablyanother three to 4,000.
Jesse Ferguson (47:19):
No, you're a musician.
Yes, are you aware that thereis a musician from that part of
the world who wrote a song abouthow much better biking is than
driving?
Judson Scott (47:31):
uh, no, who's that ?
Jesse Ferguson (47:32):
yes, his name is martin.
He, uh, you know, remember themarble machine.
He cranked this big thing andthere was ball bearings falling
on a vibraphone oh sure, uh-huh,uh-huh.
Yeah, so he wrote a song calledBiking is Better.
Judson Scott (47:51):
It's true, it is.
Jesse Ferguson (47:59):
Before he introduces this song at concerts
, he talks about how there'sdifferent ways that biking is
actually better than cars.
At concerts, he talks about howthere's different ways that
biking is actually better thancars.
So he's as a musician, usingart as part of his activism for
bike culture around the world.
Martin simply describes hismusic as instrumental, but he
(48:23):
has this mindset about music andbusiness and the planet that
I'll admit I find attractive.
And to get the album you justgo to the website and download
it.
Part of the license says thatyou have to tell people that
it's free on the website.
But biking is free too.
I mean it's better than free,right, it doesn't create exhaust
(48:44):
, you don't spend your money ongas and you actually get
healthier whenever you commute.
But when I look at the massivebike culture and infrastructure
in the Netherlands and thesurrounding countries, including
Sweden, where Martin is from, Ifeel like our country is far
behind and that maybe we havefound a teacher like Sensei
(49:10):
Amsterdam.
Judson Scott (49:12):
Around here bicyclists.
We're kind of all in ittogether because we all just
want to not die by car.
We're all just trying to likesurvive.
Jesse Ferguson (49:25):
In the Netherlands they got about 17
million people there, but in thecountry there's about 22
million bikes and if you do themath you know that's like 1.3
1.4 bikes per person.
Here we have 0.5 bikes perperson.
I think if we keep on statingthat biking is better in all the
(49:47):
different ways that we do, thenwe can tip the scales.
I mean, maybe we can do betterthan Amsterdam someday.
Tom Butler (49:55):
You know it's hard to imagine us doing better than
Amsterdam because they have sucha head start on us, but it
would be beautiful.
You know we talk about this onthe podcast quite a bit
different episodes but it wouldbe beautiful to see us get
closer.
I think we are.
I do think that there's apossibility that that expansion
(50:20):
is under threat right now, but Ijust really look forward to the
day when we look more likeAmsterdam.
Jesse Ferguson (50:28):
Yeah, but Amsterdam has its challenges.
It's like super crowded withbikes, so you rode in Amsterdam.
Yes, there's a lot of bikes inAmsterdam.
Judson Scott (50:40):
It's true, it's really true, the um and I will.
Riding a bike in Amsterdam is alittle bit like driving a car
in New York City, Like, if youdon few people, and at the end,
like when everyone had been onbikes for a while.
(51:12):
You know, and even me, I wasriding a bike, I didn't know.
I was glad that we ended inAmsterdam because it's you know,
when you're out on a bikeyou're always worried about the
cars, and in Amsterdam youreally don't have to worry about
the cars, you kind of have toworry about the other cyclists.
It's a little intense, you know.
And look, they're all commuting, they know where they're going
(51:35):
and as a tourist who doesn'tknow where they're going, you
have to be a little careful.
Tom Butler (51:40):
I'm okay with super crowded with bikes.
I'm okay with cities beingsuper crowded with people, but
when you make them super crowdedwith cars, then the car takes
up so much space per person thatit's just a very different
thing, hmm.
Jesse Ferguson (52:00):
Judson brought up to me the old Danish motto
luktor et emergo, which means Istruggle and surface again.
You'll see this painted onbuildings and stuff around there
, but it signifies a profoundresilience, the essence of the
human experience.
As you pedal through Holland,most of the time the adversary
(52:24):
that's like pushing you down iswater.
Judson Scott (52:28):
Every day is about keeping the water out, and you
know, hence the windmills.
You know it's all about pumpingthe water out to keep them, to
empty the marsh.
Jesse Ferguson (52:38):
But as you fall asleep on the barge or listen to
this podcast, that mottoquickly expands and if you let
it get under your skin, like theDutch do, a certain sense of
purpose can grow.
There are people like mygrandmother.
Carrie Ferguson (52:55):
People who aren't afraid to do something
new.
People who aren't afraid to bein environments that are
different Instead of relaxing onan ocean liner, you're getting
on a bike and pedaling andmaking the fun for yourself.
People who are more adventurousand want to be physically
(53:15):
active.
Jesse Ferguson (53:17):
And these folks are the ones who keep turning
their cranks using our trails.
And just being on the trailscalls for more infrastructure.
Tom Butler (53:26):
I think there's two things to that.
I think one thing is that wewould have it more in mind to
make statements to everybodyaround us.
I enjoyed that trail, I lovethat you go with me, and so I
think that using it personallychanges our focus.
And so I think that using itpersonally changes our focus
that, collectively, thatindividual change of focus would
(53:49):
add up to different policies.
As we're talking to ourlegislators, we're talking to
different people.
That focus gets brought up more, but then the other thing is
people noticing cyclists up more, but then the other thing is
people noticing cyclists themore people that are out there
on bikes, it gives opportunityfor someone to see that and to
(54:12):
think about bikes and to thinkabout bike infrastructure as
part of the deal.
Right now, everything is so carcentric that people look around
and they see everything aboutcars, and we need to have the
bicycle and bike infrastructurein our vision in order for
(54:34):
people to be more comfortable.
Jesse Ferguson (54:36):
That that's an important part of it like when I
am talking to you, that I'mpart of that tribe, that that
group of people who, um,appreciate and seek the, that
kind of vitality, yeah, yeah,yeah.
And these people who are kindof adventurous, I mean, it's the
(55:00):
kind of people that would alsowant to go on a trip like this
rather than just watch a movie.
Tom Butler (55:08):
I want to be that person.
I want to have that energy justkind of infused in my soul when
I think about going to dosomething as a vacation or go
experience a new place.
I want to have it that.
I want to do that in an activeway, and that's what a bicycle
(55:30):
provides is a way to activelyenjoy something, and I want that
just baked into who I am.
Jesse Ferguson (55:35):
Yeah, and there's lots of people that are
like this.
That's right.
Carrie Ferguson (55:39):
Different times you would pass fields of
flowers like tulips or hyacinthsor roses.
I remember roses one time wewould get off the bike and kind
of go down next to the field andjust take pictures of them.
Judson Scott (55:51):
So as we were getting closer to Amsterdam, I
mean, we were just ridingthrough ritzier and ritzier
neighborhoods and so it was justbeautiful all the time.
And so you know, we'd be ridingthrough somebody's backyard and
(56:12):
everything is lush and greenand beautifully landscaped
flowers spilling over the edgeof the canal, draped into the
canal, or an evergreen that youknow is very sculptural, it's
like a natural statue, you know,and just cool and calm and
(56:33):
beautiful.
It just made you feel lighterto just because you were just
cycling through this gorgeouslandscape, yeah, and just every,
you know you turn a corner andthen it's like, oh my gosh,
that's even more beautiful.
How is that possible?
I just, I just couldn't believe.
Tom Butler (56:56):
So do you think Holland, if you were given a
choice of going anywhere, do youthink Holland would be your
choice after hearing all of this, or is there another place that
you're more curious about doingthis kind of adventure?
Jesse Ferguson (57:11):
I'm very curious about Holland.
I love mechanical things and Ijust really want to go and climb
up inside one of thosewindmills and see all the gears
and the energy transfers and allthat.
That sounds really amazing.
Holland is such a weird place.
I keep on thinking why don'tyou just import some dirt and
make it taller and not have toworry about the dykes?
I don't know, I want to seewhat they think about that.
(57:33):
I mean, I know they built itAnyway.
Tom Butler (57:36):
Well, I really appreciate you doing this,
bringing some creativity to theCycling Over 60 podcast, and I
felt like my eardrums went for aride.
Jesse Ferguson (57:49):
See, it did make sense, Tom.
I'm going to let Judson havethe last line today, and after
that I want to play the entiresong.
Biking is Better, but I havejust set you up for your final
line age is just a gear changeit seems like like I love riding
(58:14):
my bike through a beautifularea and you just get to absorb
it quicker than if you'rewalking.
You know it comes through yourvision and it's not boring
because you're moving, but it'salso not so fast that you don't
get to see it.
Judson Scott (58:27):
Right, right, right.
Um, yeah, it's the perfect.
Speed.
Walking, you can't cover enoughground.
Driving you don't?
No-transcript.
Jesse Ferguson (01:02:03):
You're welcome.
Oh, that's, it yeah.
This is the Cycling Over 60 podcast, season three,
episode 20, barging in on theNetherlands, and I'm your host,
tom Butler.
I'm looking forward toparticipating in a fundraising
(00:26):
activity this spring.
I want to thank Anita Elder forinviting me to join her for
what's called the Great AmericanRide to benefit Rails to Trails
.
The ride is a virtual teamevent.
As a team, you have from April5th to June 6th to try to
complete 3,700 miles of riding.
This is to simulate a rideacross the US on the Great
(00:46):
American Rail Trail.
Please consider joining us onTeam Huffing and Puffing.
The sign-up fee is $50 andsupports the work of Rails to
Trails to create anever-expanding network of
awesome paths.
I'll put a link to the Huffingand Puffing team page in the
show notes.
I want to thank Sean and Jeanfor joining me this week on the
Thursday Zoom call.
I had a great time learningabout Jean's cycling journey.
(01:09):
Sean also joined me for whatI'm calling the Zwift Thursday
ride and I really appreciate hisencouragement.
As we did the 17-mile route, Iwould love to have you join me
next Thursday at 3 pm.
You can find my email in theshow notes to get a Zoom link.
To join the Zwift ride you needto be a member of the Zwift
(01:30):
Cycling Over 60 Club.
Whether you join the ride ornot, I'm looking forward to
meeting as many of you aspossible on Zoom.
This week I did an FTP test onZwift.
I used the 20-minute standardtest.
If you aren't familiar with theformat of the Zwift 20-minute
FTP test, it gives a gradualwarm-up followed by a hard
5-minute section to fire up thelegs, then a slight easy section
followed by a prompt to go allout for 20 minutes.
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I was really hurting for thewhole 20 minutes, but I guess
that means it was a good look atmy ability.
I decided to keep my heart ratearound 160 beats per minute.
I mostly accomplished that, butI did hit 166 beats per minute
at some point.
I ended up with 191 watts beingsustained over the 20 minutes.
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I was pretty happy with thatuntil I pulled up the workout on
Strava and realized it was onlythe second best power output
I've done for 20 minutes.
I previously hit 194 watts.
For that time when I did the194 watts, I did hit a higher
heart rate, so I guess I waspushing a little harder.
I'm not sure that comparing the191 watts ride and the 194
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watts ride is comparing applesto apples.
So for now I'm going with the191 watt result, and that
translates to an estimated FTPof 181.
So that gives me something tocompare future efforts with.
But I had to wonder if that istrue, is FTP a good measure for
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my strength and endurance, anddoes my age impact how
meaningful FTP is as a realisticmetric?
Let's dig into that a littlebit.
Ftp stands for functionalthreshold power.
It is meant to be the highestaverage power you can sustain
for approximately an hour.
So my 20 minute output of 191watts is believed to translate
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to me being able to hold 181watts for an hour.
That is one of the first thingsI'm curious about.
I feel 100% confident that Icouldn't have held 191 watts for
an hour, but even 181 watts foran hour seems like it would be
a lot.
While I haven't tried to pushit for a whole hour on Zwift,
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the most I have done from apower perspective is 153 watts
over an hour.
Again, that makes 181 wattssound like a lot, but at some
point I'm going to get on andclip in and just really see what
I can do.
Here's the physiological basisfor FTP.
As exercise intensity increases.
There's a shift from primarilyanaerobic metabolism to a
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greater reliance on anaerobicmetabolism.
Anaerobic meaning that youaren't getting enough oxygen to
the muscles to use a source likefat for energy.
Anaerobic literally meanswithout oxygen.
When your body is utilizingglucose in an anaerobic
environment, lactate is producedas a byproduct.
Now, if you want to hear adiscussion of lactate buildup,
(04:30):
listen to the episode onSeptember 5th 2023.
It's called Maybe Not ZoneTraining.
Ftp is seen as an estimate ofthe highest power output that a
person can maintain in a steadystate without excess lactate
accumulation.
It is meant to relate closelyto lactate threshold, or the
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point at which you areaccumulating lactate in the
blood faster than it can beremoved.
You typically see a significantincrease in respiration when
you hit that lactate threshold.
One of the criticisms of FTP isthat it's just an estimate and
not an actual measure of lactatebuildup.
However, to measure lactate inthe blood would require a blood
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test and I'm not going to drawblood at home as I'm on the
trainer Plus.
Lactate in the blood is reallyan indirect measure.
To actually measure lactatebuildup in the muscles would
take a muscle biopsy, obviously.
That is precisely why FTP isused, even though it is only an
approximation of lactatethreshold.
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I do feel comfortable with FTPin general as a fitness level
evaluation tool, but morespecifically, I would like to
know two things.
First, how is my fitness inrelation to others my age?
And secondly, is FTP a good wayof tracking my fitness gains?
You could argue that, comparingmyself to others, my age isn't
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important.
Who cares how I compare, aslong as I'm fit right.
However, I'm trying to assesswhether or not I have a problem
with the way I utilize energy.
The only way that I candetermine if I have a problem or
not is by comparing my fitnessgains with others.
I'll come back to this, butfirst I want to talk about FTP
being a way that I canaccurately compare how I'm
(06:19):
advancing in fitness from monthto month.
I'm fairly confident that FTPcan be used as a way of
assessing how I'm improving,with some considerations.
First, ftp can be impacted by anumber of factors.
These include environmentalfactors and also my mental and
physical state.
For example, if I get a badnight's sleep before a test, it
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could affect the results.
If I don't fuel appropriatelyor if I don't have enough
electrolytes, it could reducethe results If I don't fuel
appropriately or if I don't haveenough electrolytes, it could
reduce my FTP.
Therefore, I need to figure outhow to do FTP testing with as
much consistency as possible.
Here is my plan for gettingreliable results.
First, using the indoor trainereliminates a lot of
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environmental factors.
I don't think I'd be able tocompare what power I was
generating on the bike on theroad, but using the same bike on
the same trainer providesconsistency.
A second part of the plan is topick a time in the early
morning and stick with it.
That way the heat won't be anissue at any time of the year,
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because I believe beingoverheated would reduce my FTP.
So I want to be consistent withdoing my FTP test at 6 30 am.
The third part of the plan istake the same amount of
carbohydrates the day beforeevery test and then, along with
that, eat the same breakfast atthe same time.
For me that means finishingbreakfast at 6.15 to give 15
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minutes before the start of thetest.
It's important to me because Ithink it does matter how much
stored glycogen I have for theFTP test and again, finding a
way to be consistent with thatbecause obviously if I'm running
out of fuel it's going toreally impact the test results,
while using the trainer as acomponent.
Using Zwift provides a fourthcomponent of consistency in my
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mind, and that's because thetest is conducted the same way
each time.
It's the same warm-up and thesame resistant mechanism for the
20-minute segment.
A fifth component is to get agood night's sleep.
That just means getting to bedon time, but I think it also
means getting a good night'ssleep the night before as well.
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If I was going to participatein a serious sports event, I
would be getting at least twogood nights rest.
So again for me to be seriousabout consistency with the FTP
test, I should do the same.
A sixth component iselectrolyte intake test.
I should do the same.
A sixth component iselectrolyte intake.
Now I don't think I have myelectrolyte replenishment
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strategy 100% worked out yet.
However, I need to make sure myperformance isn't limited by
the lack of electrolytes.
Once I have it dialed in, Ineed to be consistent with
electrolytes for the test.
Before I started using Zwift, Idepended upon Strava segment
times to determine if I wasgetting stronger, but I think
that FTP ends up to be a waymore reliable comparison.
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It might not be a 100% accurateview of my fitness level, but I
think it's pretty close.
I think it can be a more usefulway to assess what progress I
make.
As long as I do these sixthings I mentioned, it is
interesting to me to see how Istack up to others.
Ftp is impacted by age, so Iwant to compare myself to others
, my age To be honest.
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I actually want to see that Ihave the FTP of a younger person
.
I feel like I'm in better shapethan I was easily in my 40s and
maybe even in my 30s, and I'dlike FTP to kind of validate
that.
I put my 20 minute watts valuefrom the Zwift test into a
calculator and it classified meas quote untrained, slash,
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non-racer.
Those categories were not agespecific and they're from a book
by Dr Andrew Coggan titledTraining and Racing with a Power
Meter.
Using the calculator atformbeatcom, my 181 estimated
FTP or 2.0 watts per kilogramscore puts me in what they call
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the novice category.
So I'd have to say being anuntrained novice doesn't sound
fantastic.
Being an untrained novicedoesn't sound fantastic.
Trumslabscom says that FTPtends to drop by 5% to 8% per
decade with age.
The one chart that I could findthat looked at age didn't give
a source for the information,but I think it also came from
(10:39):
Andrew Coggan.
The average FTP for men over 60was listed at 1.5 to 2.5 watts
per kilogram.
So based on that, I'm averagefor my age.
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The 50 to 59 average FTP islisted as 2 to 3 watts per
kilogram.
I guess you could argue that Icould be classified as average
for someone 10 years youngerthan me, and that feels a little
better.
Based on this, I'm going tobuild up to a 2.5 watts per
kilogram FTP.
That seems like a reallydifficult goal at this point,
but I will see what happens thenext time I do the FTP test.
Even if I've moved just alittle bit closer to 2.5 watts
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per kilogram, I will beencouraged.
The truth of the matter is thatI continue to be surprised
about how much I can increase mystrength and endurance, even
now, at 62 years old.
One of the issues that I'm mostanxious to figure out is just
how much my poor pancreaticfunction is interfering with my
FTP.
I noticed something interestingwhen I was riding with my
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daughter and we were climbing ahill.
She started breathing reallyhard, and that means her body
was trying to clear out lactate,but I wasn't breathing at all.
However, my legs wereabsolutely on fire.
It's like my muscles werescreaming for fuel and they
couldn't get any.
I'm suspecting that this isbecause my body isn't producing
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enough insulin to effectivelymove glucose from my bloodstream
to my muscle cells.
Without that glucose, mymuscles have to result to less
efficient ways to generateenergy, which creates that
burning sensation becausethere's a buildup of other
metabolic byproducts.
My low respiration is kind of asupport for this view.
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If I'm not producing energy asefficiently, my body doesn't
need to take in as much oxygenand there's not as much lactate
to try to eliminate.
I've wondered about this before,but I think it's time to dig in
and figure it out.
I've wondered about this before, but I think it's time to dig
in and figure it out.
And there are other indicationsthat my performance is being
hindered by low insulin releaseon long rides.
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If I can figure out a way toget more insulin in during hard
workout sessions, it might bethat doing an FTP test would be
easier for me because I might befueled better than I have been
in a long time, and of coursethat can make a really
significant difference in my FTPscore.
I'm really interested to hearif any of you have experienced
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low insulin levels when doinglong rides.
It just seems obvious thatthat's a huge factor.
I'm wondering if anyonelistening has type 1 diabetes.
I'd really like to know whatyou do to manage blood glucose,
especially on long rides.
Ultimately, I'm excited that Idid my first FTP test and I'm
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looking forward to learning whatI can learn and repeating the
tests in the future.
And, like I said, I'm reallyhappy that I can still improve.
I can still get stronger and Ican still improve.
I can still get stronger and Ican still have more endurance.
If you have listened to thepodcast for a while, you will
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recognize the person who'sjoining me today.
Thank you, jesse Ferguson, forbeing a part of this episode.
Jesse Ferguson (14:04):
Tom, I'm exploding with excitement for
what I get to show to you.
Tom Butler (14:09):
That's awesome, and I am looking for ways to mix it
up from time to time when itcomes to what you hear here on
the podcast, so I've invitedJesse to take on this episode.
Jesse is easily one of the mostcreative people I know, so,
jesse, it's time for you toreveal what cool thing you've
created here.
Jesse Ferguson (14:30):
I found something to tell you and your
listeners about.
It involves a couple members ofmy family and a trumpet player.
So can I take you on anadventure Like if your eardrums
were the wheels of a bike?
100%, I'm ready for it.
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Does that make sense?
Not really, okay.
Tom Butler (14:56):
But I'm ready to roll, I'm ready to have my
eardrums roll.
Jesse Ferguson (14:59):
Yeah, okay, you get it, you get it.
Tom Butler (15:07):
So I'm hearing this, but where are we?
Jesse Ferguson (15:12):
We just completed a train ride from the
airport in Amsterdam out to acanal, where there's a riverboat
waiting for us.
And here's the exciting partStrapped to our backpacks are
our bike helmets.
We are going on a cruise.
Judson Scott (15:36):
I've only been on two cruises in my life and the
first one was for a friend'swedding and I felt like I had
been locked in a mall for theweekend and I wasn't allowed out
.
It was sort of that level likethe whole.
For me, the whole thing waskind of that mediocre.
You know the food, what youcould do, and of course the
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friend's wedding was awesome andthat was great, but the
experience I don't get it.
It's just not for me and thiswas completely not that.
Tom Butler (16:11):
You recognize this voice, tom, I sure do.
I know that to be Judson Hi,judson Scott Because I get to
see Judson in real life and alsoI've had him on the podcast
numerous times, so other peopleprobably recognize that voice
too.
Actually, judson, if you go allthe way back to December 1st of
2023, you'll hear an episodethat I did with Judson where he
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talks about how cycling had sucha huge impact in his health.
Jesse Ferguson (16:40):
Yeah, so I visited Judson at the school of
music at the university of Pugetsound.
I think we can go up to mytrumpet studio.
Judson Scott (16:48):
The cruise that he apparently loved was a bike
tour where I, you know, givetrouble lessons here, and I
think it'll be quiet enough.
Tom Butler (16:58):
Well, I'm so glad that you talked to him about
that, because I have not heardhow that bike cruise went for
him.
Jesse Ferguson (17:03):
It's going to take me about five minutes to
get set up.
Okay, that's okay, yep.
Tom Butler (17:06):
How would you define what a bike cruise is?
Jesse Ferguson (17:10):
I could answer that, but I would rather have
this woman answer it.
I've been five times.
This is Carrie Ferguson, who'sactually my mom.
Carrie Ferguson (17:22):
With bike and barge hauling tours.
We take off in the morning andwe have our lunch with us and we
go a certain distance and wemeet up with the boat in a
different place and the boatmoves during the day while we're
out.
But other companies do it alittle bit different.
Tom Butler (17:41):
I'm thinking that the staff probably enjoy times
when everybody's off the boatand they kind of are there by
themselves.
Judson Scott (17:48):
You could be on the boat if you wanted to be.
Jesse Ferguson (17:50):
Now Judson went on a tour with a different
company called Boat Bike Tours.
Judson Scott (17:56):
There were some people who the cycling was just
too much for, and so you couldjust stay on the boat, which,
and, as boats go, it was kind ofbeautiful, and or you could
just spend the whole day on thebike and you were seeing all
these beautiful towns in theNetherlands and it was really
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quite magical.
Carrie Ferguson (18:17):
A lot of companies only take one week
tours.
Bike and Barge takes two weektours, and one day in the middle
of all of that is a free daywhere you're not riding but you
have an extended time to see aninteresting city, like we've
stopped in Leiden or in Denbergor in Leeuwarden.
Jesse Ferguson (18:38):
The Netherlands, often referred to as Holland,
is a country located innorthwestern Europe.
It's known for its flatlandscape, extensive canal
systems, windmills, tulip fieldsand cycling routes.
Now Judson toured on boat biketours.
It is a larger company, butthere are others, one of which
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started quite a while back.
Lowry Snow (19:01):
My parents started the company over 30 years ago.
Jesse Ferguson (19:04):
Tom, this guy, I don't expect you to know.
Lowry Snow (19:08):
Lowry Snow, and my wife and I are the owners of
Bike and Barge Holland Tours.
My father did a bike trip toEurope and loved it.
So he somehow secured a bargefor the following year and was a
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member of Cascade Bike Club atthe time, and so he rounded up
enough guys to fill it and wentand actually he his idea was
that was a way to get a freebike trip to Europe.
So that kind of worked for himand and everybody had a good
time.
So the next year he did acouple of trips and the next
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year maybe three, and he keptadding and adding until he got
to a dozen or so, and that's howit grew.
Jesse Ferguson (19:58):
So this is where I really wanted to have a
little help explaining the trips, because I actually haven't
personally been on one.
Lucy Shaw (20:06):
Hello, I am Lucy Shaw .
Jesse Ferguson (20:10):
This woman is very important to me and to my
mom.
Lucy Shaw (20:15):
I am Jesse's grandmother.
Jesse Ferguson (20:18):
So the company she discovered was Bike and
Barge Holland Tours.
Lucy Shaw (20:22):
When I retired at age 65, I joined a little.
I hadn't ridden a bike much atall since I was a teenager, but
I joined up sort of an informalbike group near where I lived
and one of the women was fromthe Netherlands.
She had recommended the bikeand barge to a group of her
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friends and they started talkingabout how wonderful the barge
trips were in Holland and Idecided I'd like to try it.
So in another year or so I gottogether a group of folks and we
signed up and went on a bikeand barge trip.
For the next 18 years I went oneight different tours,
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different routes each time, butin all those times I went with
other folks that I knew,sometimes three or four of us
and sometimes 20 of us together.
Jesse Ferguson (21:21):
When my grandma said she was going on a bike and
barge tour, I was like why?
What in the world?
In my head I had this pictureof a barge piled with, like old,
rusty bikes, you know.
Judson Scott (21:33):
It's a barge, it's a river barge.
Tom Butler (21:35):
That's Judson.
Again, I don't think ofsomething luxurious.
I have a tendency, when I thinkof a barge, think of something
that like they drag trash awayfrom the city on.
Jesse Ferguson (21:45):
Yeah, some huge rusty block of metal thing Right
.
Judson Scott (21:49):
European style barge, not American style barge.
Jesse Ferguson (21:53):
What's the difference there?
Judson Scott (21:54):
Well, american style barge is kind of wide and
flat and a European barge ismore like a boat.
That's just sits a little lowso it can get under bridges, but
it looks way more like a boatthan you would think of as a
barge here in America.
Anyway, so the boat we were on,it was like 100 years old and
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during World War II they hadtaken it off into this marshy
area and scuttled it, sunk it,so the Nazis couldn't use it.
Wow, couldn't, like you know,take it.
And so then after the war theyfloated again.
There were 34 of us, 32.
32 of us and passengers, sevencrew, and it was just pretty
(22:46):
perfect.
You know the cabins are alittle small, but it would be
everything you'd need.
Everyone's got a bathroomattached to their cabin and, you
know, whatever you don't reallywant to be sitting in your
cabin.
Anyway, it's a beautiful boat,so it was just lovely to walk
onto it.
Lucy Shaw (23:01):
After we got back from our bike ride, each day
we'd have a wonderful dinnerserved, and then after dinner,
an hour or so later, we wouldhave a meeting with our guides,
who would tell us what the nextday trip was going to be like,
and at that time we would haveplenty of time to visit with
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other folks and really getacquainted and share stories
from the day with everybody.
Jesse Ferguson (23:30):
The boat itself is like 100 feet long and
there's room on deck for all thebikes to be lined up.
They have cover for them sothey don't get wet in the rain.
But the first night that you'reon there you really focus on
just getting settled in.
Lucy Shaw (23:43):
In the morning we would hear all about our
bicycles.
So we felt quite comfortableand at home right away and I
believe we had a meal thatevening in the dining room and
got a little better acquainted.
Jesse Ferguson (23:57):
I want to pause the discussion of logistics and
focus on what is it that peoplelove about this so much?
Lucy Shaw (24:09):
We were for the most part bicycling down in the
lowland, which of course inHolland is below sea level.
We would have to get up ontothe dike in this one area, which
was one of the biggest dikesprotecting the country from the
(24:31):
sea, the country from the sea.
And it was quite a huff andpuff ride getting up the little
road onto the dike because wewere used to flat riding by then
.
And we got up there and thisagain was in the springtime but
the wind was just howling.
(24:52):
Whoo, the wind was just howling.
And of course we had to ride aways along that on the roadway
which goes on top of the dikeand it was kind of difficult
riding against the wind butluckily it didn't have to be up
(25:16):
there for too long.
The water's a deep, deep bluecolor and rolling at that time
because it was windy and loudand beautiful and washes up on
the beach with a slam-bangsplash Just kind of sent tingles
(25:51):
down your back to see the forceof nature here.
Tom Butler (26:00):
Absolutely beautiful .
Jesse Ferguson (26:04):
I would love all the exercise and all the
physical stuff and being therewith the wind and the waves and
everything.
But there's a really strongdraw to these bike tours in
Holland because there are somany fascinating things you get
to see like an experience.
Carrie Ferguson (26:23):
Holland is part of the Netherlands.
Jesse Ferguson (26:25):
This is my mom again.
She's a very observant andcurious kind of a person.
Carrie Ferguson (26:30):
There's North Holland and South Holland are
two of the states.
In the Netherlands.
They call them provinces.
I really like the North-SouthHolland route that takes you in
a big circle around down intoSouth Holland and up into North
Holland and back to Amsterdamagain.
It takes you to some uniqueheritage sites and places that
(26:50):
are well-known, like Harlem,where the Ten Boom family lived.
Corrie Ten Boom is prettyfamous.
Take you to Delft, where theDelft factory is, where they
make Delft pottery, delft tiles.
You see Kinderdijk, which is aWorld Heritage Site with 19
original windmills along awaterway.
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You get to see Rotterdam, whichis one of the biggest cities in
the Netherlands.
You get to see Leiden, whichwas the birthplace of Rembrandt.
Tom Butler (27:18):
What comes to my mind is could I see inside any
of those windmills?
Carrie Ferguson (27:24):
Oh yeah, we've been inside working windmills
and it's really cool to go allthe way up inside to the very
top where the working gears are,and there's one windmill that
you can go in.
That is a lifting windmill.
The wind is blowing the fins upon the top, which are going
(27:53):
down and around.
You can see the fins up on thetop which are going down, and
around.
You can see the water beinglifted by way of an Archimedes
screw, which is underneath, andso that's pretty loud with all
the sounds of the water goingthrough, and so you're hearing
the whooshing of that.
You're hearing the low rumbleof the.
(28:14):
You're hearing the low rumbleof the.
There's a beam that is verticalin the middle of the windmill,
which is about 18 inches squareand goes from the screw all the
way up to the top where the windis pushing it around.
As that beam is spinning, thenthere are gears that change the
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direction of the force to theArchimedes screw.
Judson Scott (28:44):
You would cycle by these houses that it's like.
I don't know is that a castleor is that a house?
There's not necessarily abright line there.
Jesse Ferguson (28:53):
Our country is so much younger as far as like
developing large buildings isconcerned.
We just don't get thatexperience here of being
confused If it's a castle or not.
Judson Scott (29:04):
Right, right, we did stop at a medieval castle in
.
Okay, these all mypronunciations are just going to
be out the window, so I'm justapologize, anyway.
So we stopped in Münden at theMöderschlacht.
It's a castle in Münden.
It was open to the public.
You paid something, anadmission fee, and they, you
(29:26):
know, they had armor around andyou know you could see where the
king or the duke or whoeverlived there.
Like, okay, here's where thetoilet was that just dropped
into the moat.
You know, it was pretty.
Anyway, it's, our lives are somuch better now than they would
have been, like even if you werea king back then.
(29:47):
Like the way we live now is isah, there's, you know, indoor
plumbing it.
It's a thing to praise.
Jesse Ferguson (29:56):
So apparently in these tours there's the option
of doing your own tour, likejust following GPS.
But I think it would be morepractical to do that if you
actually knew the language.
Carrie Ferguson (30:07):
I mean, I'm just imagining being out there
trying to find you know waterand you don't know how to talk
to the people.
I wish I knew how to speakDutch originally before I
started going.
I am learning Dutch now and Ican converse with certain people
in Dutch.
Most of the people know someEnglish, unless you get out of
the main areas, but a lot of thesmaller shops that you might
(30:30):
want to go in and maybe ask forsomething or say something to
the people who work there,especially older people, and
they really appreciate it.
Even if you're not speakingreally good Dutch, they'll
correct you and they'll smileand tell you that they
understand you just fine.
Jesse Ferguson (30:47):
So maybe my mom could do a GPS trip, um, and
she's.
She's been learning Dutch forlike two years now, but I feel
like if or when I go or we go,which would be awesome, I think
I'd miss out on some of theintellectual experience you know
, without a guide.
Lucy Shaw (31:04):
Our hosts and our guides were all native from
Holland, so they knew the area,but they also spoke all of them
very good English, sometimeswith a little accent.
It was hard for us to get usedto the guides are.
Judson Scott (31:20):
they're very nice, they have lots of knowledge,
interesting things to tell youabout, and so you know we'd ride
for half an hour.
They'd stop, people would getsome water and rest, and you
would stop at something thatthey would tell you about.
You know whether it was acastle or um, a statue or
(31:41):
whatever.
You know.
They had an endless supply ofstories.
What?
Tom Butler (31:48):
did you?
What were some of the thingsthat you came away from this,
that you felt transformed yourdesire to go on a bike trip this
way?
Jesse Ferguson (32:02):
There was a story that the owner of Bike and
Barge Holland Tours shared.
It was about that they wereexpecting there to be a ferry.
Lowry Snow (32:15):
One time we were looking for a ferry to cross the
river and couldn't find one.
Jesse Ferguson (32:20):
They had planned .
You know, like part of theroute that day was they're going
to get on the small ferry andgo across some body of water and
, like something was wrong, itwas canceled, and so they had
this group of bicyclists on theshore and they're like Is that
why we can't get across here?
And so the guide rode aroundand talked to people.
Lowry Snow (32:38):
And the guide found somebody that lived there that
had a rowboat, and so they rodeeverybody, two at a time, across
the river with their bikes sothat they could continue the
tour for the next I don't knowhalf an hour hour.
Jesse Ferguson (32:52):
This guy was manually rowing them across and
he was just like I'm takingbicycles, you know um, which,
you know, set them back a littlein time.
Lowry Snow (33:00):
But hey, it was a great story.
Jesse Ferguson (33:01):
So that kind of thing to me is adventure and
stuff that you can't plan for.
Like we talked about that.
You know that to me was likereally interesting, you know,
like what do you do?
Because you have to to get towhere the barge is, you know,
and so that's one thing that Iwas like man, I really want to
(33:23):
have an adventure like this.
Lowry Snow (33:24):
You can't plan for everything, and it's the
unexpected that becomes the funand the stories that people
remember.
Tom Butler (33:32):
So you like the concept that maybe it can't all
be a hundred percent planned andorganized.
There's still that room tocreate something on the fly.
Jesse Ferguson (33:44):
Yeah, I mean, and it doesn't always have to be
something as significant aninterruption as that.
Lowry Snow (33:51):
Another time I can remember we rode into a town on
a Sunday morning and everythingwas closed and we were looking
for a coffee stop and we cameacross a lady right on the edge
of town and asked her if sheknew of anything in town or in
the next town that might be open.
And she thought for a minute.
(34:12):
She said I can't think ofanything, but I feel terrible
about that.
She says why don't you come in?
And she took us through herhouse and out into her garden
and she served us all coffee andtea and cookies and at the same
time told us, um, uh, thehistory of their town and the
architecture earner husbandhappened to be architect, so she
was the old architecture.
(34:33):
So it was a great time.
Tom Butler (34:35):
how cool yeah, it's too bad.
They can't guarantee you'llhave some unscripted or
unplanned adventure.
Jesse Ferguson (34:42):
I'm under the impression that every tour has
them.
I mean, you're in an amazingland for that many days, so
you're bound to run intoadventures and stuff,
complications, you know.
Plus, each of the three peoplethat I spoke with had stories.
Some of them were silly, someof them were somber.
Lucy Shaw (35:00):
One of the fun parts for me was stopping at lunchtime
and we packed our lunch andtook our lunch with us and and
picnicked for lunchtime.
And sometimes it was in a nicelittle park and I remember one
one park that had a a zip lineof all things and some of our
(35:21):
people were riding on this zipline and that could.
That could be pretty funny,especially when they one of them
fell off at the end and thatwas pretty funny just because it
happened to somebody else andnot myself was this another
(35:44):
person who was retired already?
Jesse Ferguson (35:45):
Yes, okay, active group of people.
Carrie Ferguson (35:50):
There was a really brisk wind one day and we
were riding against it, and inthose kind of conditions our
guide tells us to ride closetogether and line up one behind
the other as a way, so that eachrider can kind of break the
wind for the other riders.
Jesse Ferguson (36:07):
You mean drafting.
Carrie Ferguson (36:10):
Yes, drafting.
I was riding along with a14-year-old who was with our
group on our tour thatparticular year and I told him
get in line behind the guide sothat the guide could break the
wind for him, which he did.
And then we went around a wideturn in the road and, um, the
(36:34):
wind was coming from a littlebit different direction and
there happened to be, uh, somecrop fertilization going on
there, which which really wasoverpowering.
Jesse Ferguson (36:44):
Was this one of the manure-based?
Carrie Ferguson (36:46):
Yes yes, and so Alex said I didn't know that
that's what you meant bybreaking the wind.
And we both almost fell off ourbikes laughing.
We rode into this little townand it turns out that they were
having a festival there that dayand that was really cool
(37:09):
because it was like a pumpkinsquash festival, so there was a
lot of people selling pumpkinsand squash, but there was also
garage sale kinds of sales andpeople selling their art.
I bought some art from thiswoman who was doing these really
colorful things with beeswaxart from this woman who was
doing these really colorfulthings with beeswax.
Tom Butler (37:29):
It sounds like there's just so much going on
that the tour company can'tpredict what cool stuff you
might come across.
Jesse Ferguson (37:33):
Yeah, but remember, it's not just the
events that you're seeing, it'salso the people.
Carrie Ferguson (37:38):
People, sorry.
Communicating with all kinds ofpeople is really fun.
We're eating lunch in a littleopen mall area and there was a
woman who walked by severaltimes and stopped and watched us
.
Finally, she came up and askedwhere we were from and asked a
few other questions and said Iwant you to come to tea at my
house.
And she said I'll tell youwhere I live.
(38:01):
My house is white with greentrim.
You can go there.
And she gave our guidedirections.
Unfortunately, we were not ableto do that, but it's really
funny because literally everyhouse in that part of the
country is white with green trim.
Judson Scott (38:16):
As it happened, there were a lot of Canadians on
this trip and so they deviatedfrom the normal path a little
bit to stop by the Canadiancemetery from World War II.
I believe Almost half of thetour were Canadian, so it was
kind of a moving stop for themand you know, just to see row on
(38:40):
row on row of crosses frompeople who never made it home.
One of the guides Ronald readIn Flanders Fields, which I
believe is actually about wardead from World War I, but
clearly appropriate, and I hadmy trumpet with me because I
(39:02):
take it everywhere and I've beenpracticing in the mornings, and
so they asked me to bring itout on this and to play the last
post, which is the Canadian andEuropean version of Taps.
Jesse Ferguson (39:16):
Just so we could hear it ourselves, I asked
Judson to play it for us as Irecorded him outside.
(39:51):
I could just imagine standingbeside rows and rows of graves.
You're overseas, You'resurrounded by this palpable
(40:14):
history.
Judson Scott (40:26):
And again, this is just another one of the
unplanned adventures on one ofthese trips.
Jesse Ferguson (40:30):
Yeah, so that was actually a very moving stop.
Yeah, that's beautiful that youhad your instrument and were
able to contribute to themourning of your fellow
shipmates.
Judson Scott (40:40):
Yes, I was.
They were a little tentativeabout asking, not wanting to
impose upon me in my time, but Iwas.
Yeah, no, I was.
I mean kind of any musicianwants to play.
Jesse Ferguson (40:56):
I think it's a good time for us to return to
talking about the logisticsagain.
How does this all work?
How do we get our rental?
Tom Butler (41:04):
bikes.
Okay, so here's the thing Iwould prefer to have my own bike
.
Jesse Ferguson (41:08):
Yeah, judson mentioned the idea of bringing
his own bike, but he was toldlike you're gonna like these
bikes better because if you hadyour bike, you'd be so much
faster than everybody else thatyou'd be waiting all the time.
And you're more upright, youget to see things better.
It's just, uh, it's a differentstyle of writing.
The stuff that they provide youhelps.
You have the experience thatyou're paying for.
Tom Butler (41:30):
I would least like to have my own helmet.
Well, you do bring your ownhelmet.
Lucy Shaw (41:34):
Yes, you have to take your helmet and, of course,
whatever cycling clothes arecomfortable for you and they
have quite a list of things youshould bring.
Carrie Ferguson (41:48):
They want us to send, like the length of our
inseam and our height anddifferent basic measurements
just a few.
And then they have rental bikesthat are pretty adjustable.
It doesn't always work.
They have a bike that they haveearmarked for us and they have
(42:09):
our name on it.
But things happen Like.
One of my friends, who happensto be rather short, was given a
bike that was too tall for herand she couldn't even straddle
it and someone had misread thenumbers that she'd put onto her
form.
But for the most part they'repretty adjustable.
(42:29):
The seat can be adjusted easilyand the handlebars have maybe
three different ways that theycan go, so that they can be
higher or further back.
Judson Scott (42:38):
And then when you got there, there were two guides
.
They made sure everybody's bikefit them and probably about
half the people had e-bikes andhalf the people had just regular
analog bikes.
The very first day we tried outour bikes, got them, you know,
sized for ourselves, and then wejust did like a 15-minute ride
(42:59):
around the harbor just to like,yeah, this bike works, it fits
you, this is going to be fine.
And a couple of people likeswitched out to e-bikes that day
.
Jesse Ferguson (43:09):
How far did you go each day?
Judson Scott (43:10):
There was usually a 20 mile route and maybe a 30
mile route.
Carrie Ferguson (43:16):
Yep, there are two separate rides.
One is a shorter ride, theother one's a longer ride.
The shorter ride usually hasextra stops and go a little bit
slower.
The longer ride might take alonger side trip over to see
something else that might beinteresting.
The shorter ride sometimes goesto museums or other places of
interest that the longer groupmisses because they're riding
(43:40):
for a longer distance.
Judson Scott (43:41):
And you know, maybe it would be 22 and 36 or
whatever, but you know, andwould be 22 and 36 or whatever.
But you know, and um, andbasically you had all day, so I
mean honestly, 20 miles overpotentially eight hours.
It's just not that much much.
Pedaling not sound very intenseand the and the groups would
just change daily, like you justwent with one guy to the other
(44:01):
and um, so one of them alwaysrode an analog bike and one of
them always rode an e-bike, andif your bike broke down, they
would give you their bike andthey would deal with the broken
bike.
And this happened to me.
Actually my bike was like I was.
When I first started.
I was like, man, this is not avery good bike.
(44:22):
And it just turned out I hadn'tnoticed that the disc brakes
were like on and they, they didnot release, and then it wasn't,
until I just sort ofaccidentally spun the wheel and
it stopped to me.
I was like, oh, there'ssomething up here.
This was like two or three daysin and so, um, so.
But then, you know, they fixedit and then it kind of happened
(44:43):
again and then they did a moreinvolved fix and then it was
totally fine for the rest of thetrip and then at night we come
back to the barge.
Hey, hi.
Carrie Ferguson (44:59):
We have a little bit of break.
We have time to take showersand get cleaned up and meet in
the dining hall for dinner.
And dinner is served indifferent ways depending on what
day it is.
Often it's a buffet where yougo by and take the food you want
(45:21):
, but on a fancy banquet nightthey might come and serve you at
the table and bring platters offood to the table to pass
around.
They accommodate dietary needs.
It's nice when the captainhappens to be a vegetarian,
because then the vegetarianmeals are good too Like.
Judson Scott (45:38):
I said they changed the itinerary to take
this little detour through theCanadian cemetery.
The itinerary to take thislittle detour through the
Canadian cemetery as it happened, my brother in law's birthday
was the second day, so theybaked a cake and they you know,
they just immediately adapted tothat situation.
It's sort of a bespoke lifethat you don't usually live, you
(46:00):
know to like have a group ofpeople, two guides, a captain, a
sailor and then maybe threewaitstaff, really just making
sure that you have a good time.
Yeah, that's not my normal life.
Jesse Ferguson (46:16):
It sounds like they do a great job at that.
The only problem is thateventually the trip has to end.
My mom had one word for this.
Carrie Ferguson (46:27):
Sad I'd like to word for this Sad.
I'd like to stay a little bitlonger, but also it's nice to
get home and sleep in my own bed.
I like to extend my trip out onone or both ends and do
something extra, like stop inIceland and do a couple tours or
see some of the sites therebefore heading on to the
(46:49):
Netherlands or afterwards.
Last time we stayed afterwardsand went to Berlin, and that was
really neat, since you'realready over there spending the
time and the money to have alittle bit more experience
without adding a whole lot morecost onto it.
Lowry Snow (47:08):
How much did it all cost?
Carrie Ferguson (47:11):
It seems like 3000 is about good for airfare,
and two and the tour is probablyanother three to 4,000.
Jesse Ferguson (47:19):
No, you're a musician.
Yes, are you aware that thereis a musician from that part of
the world who wrote a song abouthow much better biking is than
driving?
Judson Scott (47:31):
uh, no, who's that ?
Jesse Ferguson (47:32):
yes, his name is martin.
He, uh, you know, remember themarble machine.
He cranked this big thing andthere was ball bearings falling
on a vibraphone oh sure, uh-huh,uh-huh.
Yeah, so he wrote a song calledBiking is Better.
Judson Scott (47:51):
It's true, it is.
Jesse Ferguson (47:59):
Before he introduces this song at concerts
, he talks about how there'sdifferent ways that biking is
actually better than cars.
At concerts, he talks about howthere's different ways that
biking is actually better thancars.
So he's as a musician, usingart as part of his activism for
bike culture around the world.
Martin simply describes hismusic as instrumental, but he
(48:23):
has this mindset about music andbusiness and the planet that
I'll admit I find attractive.
And to get the album you justgo to the website and download
it.
Part of the license says thatyou have to tell people that
it's free on the website.
But biking is free too.
I mean it's better than free,right, it doesn't create exhaust
(48:44):
, you don't spend your money ongas and you actually get
healthier whenever you commute.
But when I look at the massivebike culture and infrastructure
in the Netherlands and thesurrounding countries, including
Sweden, where Martin is from, Ifeel like our country is far
behind and that maybe we havefound a teacher like Sensei
(49:10):
Amsterdam.
Judson Scott (49:12):
Around here bicyclists.
We're kind of all in ittogether because we all just
want to not die by car.
We're all just trying to likesurvive.
Jesse Ferguson (49:25):
In the Netherlands they got about 17
million people there, but in thecountry there's about 22
million bikes and if you do themath you know that's like 1.3
1.4 bikes per person.
Here we have 0.5 bikes perperson.
I think if we keep on statingthat biking is better in all the
(49:47):
different ways that we do, thenwe can tip the scales.
I mean, maybe we can do betterthan Amsterdam someday.
Tom Butler (49:55):
You know it's hard to imagine us doing better than
Amsterdam because they have sucha head start on us, but it
would be beautiful.
You know we talk about this onthe podcast quite a bit
different episodes but it wouldbe beautiful to see us get
closer.
I think we are.
I do think that there's apossibility that that expansion
(50:20):
is under threat right now, but Ijust really look forward to the
day when we look more likeAmsterdam.
Jesse Ferguson (50:28):
Yeah, but Amsterdam has its challenges.
It's like super crowded withbikes, so you rode in Amsterdam.
Yes, there's a lot of bikes inAmsterdam.
Judson Scott (50:40):
It's true, it's really true, the um and I will.
Riding a bike in Amsterdam is alittle bit like driving a car
in New York City, Like, if youdon few people, and at the end,
like when everyone had been onbikes for a while.
(51:12):
You know, and even me, I wasriding a bike, I didn't know.
I was glad that we ended inAmsterdam because it's you know,
when you're out on a bikeyou're always worried about the
cars, and in Amsterdam youreally don't have to worry about
the cars, you kind of have toworry about the other cyclists.
It's a little intense, you know.
And look, they're all commuting, they know where they're going
(51:35):
and as a tourist who doesn'tknow where they're going, you
have to be a little careful.
Tom Butler (51:40):
I'm okay with super crowded with bikes.
I'm okay with cities beingsuper crowded with people, but
when you make them super crowdedwith cars, then the car takes
up so much space per person thatit's just a very different
thing, hmm.
Jesse Ferguson (52:00):
Judson brought up to me the old Danish motto
luktor et emergo, which means Istruggle and surface again.
You'll see this painted onbuildings and stuff around there
, but it signifies a profoundresilience, the essence of the
human experience.
As you pedal through Holland,most of the time the adversary
(52:24):
that's like pushing you down iswater.
Judson Scott (52:28):
Every day is about keeping the water out, and you
know, hence the windmills.
You know it's all about pumpingthe water out to keep them, to
empty the marsh.
Jesse Ferguson (52:38):
But as you fall asleep on the barge or listen to
this podcast, that mottoquickly expands and if you let
it get under your skin, like theDutch do, a certain sense of
purpose can grow.
There are people like mygrandmother.
Carrie Ferguson (52:55):
People who aren't afraid to do something
new.
People who aren't afraid to bein environments that are
different Instead of relaxing onan ocean liner, you're getting
on a bike and pedaling andmaking the fun for yourself.
People who are more adventurousand want to be physically
(53:15):
active.
Jesse Ferguson (53:17):
And these folks are the ones who keep turning
their cranks using our trails.
And just being on the trailscalls for more infrastructure.
Tom Butler (53:26):
I think there's two things to that.
I think one thing is that wewould have it more in mind to
make statements to everybodyaround us.
I enjoyed that trail, I lovethat you go with me, and so I
think that using it personallychanges our focus.
And so I think that using itpersonally changes our focus
that, collectively, thatindividual change of focus would
(53:49):
add up to different policies.
As we're talking to ourlegislators, we're talking to
different people.
That focus gets brought up more, but then the other thing is
people noticing cyclists up more, but then the other thing is
people noticing cyclists themore people that are out there
on bikes, it gives opportunityfor someone to see that and to
(54:12):
think about bikes and to thinkabout bike infrastructure as
part of the deal.
Right now, everything is so carcentric that people look around
and they see everything aboutcars, and we need to have the
bicycle and bike infrastructurein our vision in order for
(54:34):
people to be more comfortable.
Jesse Ferguson (54:36):
That that's an important part of it like when I
am talking to you, that I'mpart of that tribe, that that
group of people who, um,appreciate and seek the, that
kind of vitality, yeah, yeah,yeah.
And these people who are kindof adventurous, I mean, it's the
(55:00):
kind of people that would alsowant to go on a trip like this
rather than just watch a movie.
Tom Butler (55:08):
I want to be that person.
I want to have that energy justkind of infused in my soul when
I think about going to dosomething as a vacation or go
experience a new place.
I want to have it that.
I want to do that in an activeway, and that's what a bicycle
(55:30):
provides is a way to activelyenjoy something, and I want that
just baked into who I am.
Jesse Ferguson (55:35):
Yeah, and there's lots of people that are
like this.
That's right.
Carrie Ferguson (55:39):
Different times you would pass fields of
flowers like tulips or hyacinthsor roses.
I remember roses one time wewould get off the bike and kind
of go down next to the field andjust take pictures of them.
Judson Scott (55:51):
So as we were getting closer to Amsterdam, I
mean, we were just ridingthrough ritzier and ritzier
neighborhoods and so it was justbeautiful all the time.
And so you know, we'd be ridingthrough somebody's backyard and
(56:12):
everything is lush and greenand beautifully landscaped
flowers spilling over the edgeof the canal, draped into the
canal, or an evergreen that youknow is very sculptural, it's
like a natural statue, you know,and just cool and calm and
(56:33):
beautiful.
It just made you feel lighterto just because you were just
cycling through this gorgeouslandscape, yeah, and just every,
you know you turn a corner andthen it's like, oh my gosh,
that's even more beautiful.
How is that possible?
I just, I just couldn't believe.
Tom Butler (56:56):
So do you think Holland, if you were given a
choice of going anywhere, do youthink Holland would be your
choice after hearing all of this, or is there another place that
you're more curious about doingthis kind of adventure?
Jesse Ferguson (57:11):
I'm very curious about Holland.
I love mechanical things and Ijust really want to go and climb
up inside one of thosewindmills and see all the gears
and the energy transfers and allthat.
That sounds really amazing.
Holland is such a weird place.
I keep on thinking why don'tyou just import some dirt and
make it taller and not have toworry about the dykes?
I don't know, I want to seewhat they think about that.
(57:33):
I mean, I know they built itAnyway.
Tom Butler (57:36):
Well, I really appreciate you doing this,
bringing some creativity to theCycling Over 60 podcast, and I
felt like my eardrums went for aride.
Jesse Ferguson (57:49):
See, it did make sense, Tom.
I'm going to let Judson havethe last line today, and after
that I want to play the entiresong.
Biking is Better, but I havejust set you up for your final
line age is just a gear changeit seems like like I love riding
(58:14):
my bike through a beautifularea and you just get to absorb
it quicker than if you'rewalking.
You know it comes through yourvision and it's not boring
because you're moving, but it'salso not so fast that you don't
get to see it.
Judson Scott (58:27):
Right, right, right.
Um, yeah, it's the perfect.
Speed.
Walking, you can't cover enoughground.
Driving you don't?
No-transcript.
Jesse Ferguson (01:02:03):
You're welcome.
Oh, that's, it yeah.
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