February 19, 2025 • 61 mins
Join host Tom Butler on this week's Cycling Over Sixty podcast as he grapples with pre-season jitters! Tom confesses his apprehension about his training (or lack thereof) leading up to the first group ride of the year. He also makes an announcement about a new step he's taking to address his metabolic dysfunction.
This week's guest is Michael Payne, a lifelong cycling advocate. Michael shares his journey promoting better bike infrastructure and how his experiences living in Europe shaped his vision for what's possible in the US. Hear his inspiring perspective on creating a more bike-friendly world and learn what drives his passion for cycling advocacy. If you're interested in making a difference in your local cycling community, this episode is a must-listen!
LINKS
Olympic Discovery Trail : olympicdiscoverytrail.org
League of American Bicyclist: bikeleague.org
Thanks for Joining Me!
Consider becoming a member of the Cycling Over Sixty Strava Club! www.strava.com/clubs/CyclingOverSixty
Cycling Over Sixty is also on Zwift. Look for our Zwift club!
Please send comments, questions and especially content suggestions to me at tom.butler@teleiomedia.com
Follow and comment on Cycling Over Sixty on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cyclingoversixty/
Show music is "Come On Out" by Dan Lebowitz. Find him here : lebomusic.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tom Butler (00:04):
This is the Cycling Over 60 podcast, season three,
episode 18, becoming a bikeadvocate, and I'm your host, tom
Butler.
I'm coming up on two yearssince the launch of the Cycling
(00:26):
Over 60 podcast.
The podcast has given me theopportunity to meet so many
awesome people, so I'm happythat there are a few ways to
join in with the Cycling Over 60community now.
First, send feedback and helpshape the podcast by sending me
a text message.
At the top of the show notesyou should see a link that says
send me a text message, or youcan find my email address in the
(00:47):
show notes.
Another way of participating isby joining the Cycling Over 60
Strava Club.
I know I say this all the time,but I just love seeing the
rides you all are doing.
A relatively new communityactivity is for anybody who has
an indoor trainer.
I'm opening up a Zoom chat at 3pm Pacific time on Thursdays.
If you use Zwift, you can alsojoin our virtual ride at the
(01:10):
same time by becoming a memberof the Cycling Over 60 Zwift
group.
It was so fun being joined byLinda and Jeff last Thursday and
I look forward to seeing morepeople join in.
If you don't have Zwift but youhave a trainer.
Consider scheduling a time forThursdays at 3 pm Pacific time
and drop by the Zoom chat tojoin us.
Or even if you aren't writingon Thursday, drop by the Zoom
(01:33):
chat and say hi or ask aquestion.
Reach out through email for theZoom link or if you have any
questions about gettingconnected.
One of the areas of focus thisseason is personalized medicine
getting connected.
One of the areas of focus thisseason is personalized medicine.
It has been an interestingjourney to understand my health
on a more individual andfunctional level.
I'm disappointed that one of mybiggest issues is that my
(01:53):
pancreas isn't functioningnormally.
Hopefully, medical researchwill help find a way to restore
beta cell function.
It's likely that I'll bemodifying my food intake for the
rest of my life to overcomethat dysfunction.
As I have said here before, Irecommend people to look beyond
blood glucose level and makesure that your insulin output is
(02:15):
optimal.
I've made a decision to make ashift to my diet.
There are people that believethat a very low-fat, plant-based
diet is the only way tooptimize glucose utilization at
the cellular level.
Some of you might know fromlistening to the podcast that my
wife, kelly, is one of thosebelievers.
While I'm not crazy aboutmaking this shift, it is worth
it for me to give it a try.
(02:36):
I'm actually going to give itsix months before making a call
about whether or not it issomething I want to continue to
do.
You'll be hearing many moredetails about this change in the
weeks to come.
I've been trying to get readyfor the first organized group
ride of the year.
It's called Chili Hilly andit's put on by Cascade Bicycle
Club.
I'm not too worried about thechili part, but I am nervous
(02:57):
about the hilly.
If you're curious, you cansearch Chili Hilly, cascade
Bicycle Club and see the route.
I've been trying for about aweek now to build up my climbing
strength.
That's since I learned that thevirtual training that I do
doesn't really match climbingfor me in real life.
I ride a segment that is nearto my home that has a climb
(03:18):
that's about a quarter of a milelong.
It's an average grade of 10.3%,with a section that is 15 to
16%.
While it's not a long segment,it is something that really
tests me and I feel like it is agood segment for building up my
legs.
While the Chilly Hilly doesn'thave anything that steep, the
(03:39):
hills are much longer.
I'm going into the Chilly Hilly, which happens this next
weekend, with only a moderatelevel of confidence that I'm
going to be able to handle it.
One of my biggest concerns isthat I'm cramping up more often
these days and I think that hasthe potential of being an issue
in the last five miles of the32-mile Chilly Hilly route.
(04:01):
There is a food stop at 15miles, so I'm going to do my
best to have a solid crampprevention strategy for that
stop.
Let me know if you have anytried and true cramp
interventions.
The two things that I will bedoing for sure is making sure
that I am stretching out a lotwhenever we stop and also taking
in more electrolytes than Ihave in the past.
(04:22):
I set out this season to doseven organized rides before
November.
Chilly Hilly is the first oneand I'm excited to get the party
started.
Last week I spent a couple ofdays with the awesome people
from Washington Bikes in Olympia, our state capital.
(04:45):
On day one, we heard about thelegislative priorities of WAP
bikes.
We also were given instructionson how to talk about these
priorities with ourrepresentatives.
Washington is projected toexperience a major budget
shortfall over the next fewyears, so we know that funds
that should go into bikeinfrastructure are at risk for
being moved elsewhere.
On the second day, I joined mynew cycling buddy, greg, and met
(05:08):
with one of our staterepresentatives.
The entire experience was hugefor me.
I sincerely enjoyed the time wespent with our representative.
He didn't make any promises,but he listened closely to what
we had to say.
It wasn't just that I wastalking about cycling.
This was the first time I haveengaged in democracy in that way
.
I feel like this is animportant time to be engaged,
(05:28):
and I would recommend thateveryone find a group of
cyclists to join together andvisit your representatives.
One of the great people I metduring our time in Olympia is
Michael Payne.
After hearing about Michael'sinterests and background, I
asked him to be on the podcast.
I'm so glad he was willing tojoin me.
Here's our conversation.
I am joined by someone who I'vejust recently met.
(05:49):
Thank you, michael Payne, forcoming on the podcast.
Michael Payne (05:53):
Hi, tom, thanks for having me.
Tom Butler (05:56):
I wanted Michael to come on because I see Michael as
an advocate and a cyclingadvocate and I think you've had
some interesting experiences andI just wanted people to hear
from you.
Michael Payne (06:10):
Happy to join you today and I'm happy to share
with the goal that hopefullysomething is helpful to someone
out there somewhere Awesome.
Tom Butler (06:18):
Let me ask you this what is your earliest memory of
the bicycle?
Michael Payne (06:22):
I was thinking about that the other day.
Certainly I have very earlymemories on a bicycle of
learning how to ride with myfather in my elementary school
parking lot which are sort ofwhat one would typically think
of in terms of the joy and thefreedom associated with rolling
(06:43):
away from his hand as he fallsbehind on the parking lot not
falling literally, but is leftbehind and that is certainly
favorable.
I also have memories of gettingon a tricycle which you didn't
ask me about when I was evenyounger and getting pushed off
of a patio onto a broken bottle.
(07:04):
But we're not going to go downthat route because that wasn't
as pleasant of a story.
Tom Butler (07:11):
Sounds like one of those memories you'd like to
forget, actually.
Michael Payne (07:14):
That's true, there is some risk associated
with these sort of earlyadventures, but overall I have
very fond early memories.
Tom Butler (07:22):
It seems like your interest in cycling has
persisted from early on in life.
What has kept you interested init?
Michael Payne (07:29):
You know, the main thing that really is, is,
has is, is.
Keeping me interested is abelief that the technology is
great and it's really underdeployed, given the capacity for
change that can happen inpeople's lives.
You know, I see it bringing joyand freedom to people still at
all ages of their lives.
(07:50):
I see it adding materially topeople's health and their quest
for longevity, and I see itbringing economic benefits and,
of course, on a society level,bringing great, you know,
environmental benefits as welland and I just you know I'm
motivated by the sort of thefundamentals that it brings to
(08:11):
people's lives now, if I'mcorrect, you got involved in
advocacy right out of college,is that right?
I did.
I was bike commuting in atlanta, living in town and commuting
out to Decatur and was, you know, finding that to be less than a
great experience and sort oflooking around to see what was
(08:32):
going on.
I somehow came in touch withwhat was called the Atlanta
Bicycle Coalition at that point.
It now was merged with walkinggroups and goes by the name
Propel, but I joined the boardat that stage as they were just
making the transition from beingan all-volunteer organization
to having their first paid staffand that sort of formally put
(08:54):
me in bicycle advocacy.
Tom Butler (08:57):
Is there something about that that matches your
personality?
I mean, it seems like you couldcomplain a lot, you know, as
you're riding around and not doanything.
But is there something abouthow you see the world that you
know that was important for youto to do something?
Michael Payne (09:15):
the other day, somebody said why did?
Why do people get involved inbicycle advocacy?
Or the question was asked in agroup, and, and and somebody
said it's usually has somethingto do with your mother, and and
uh, I thought that was a cleveranswer and I reflected on my own
mother, who was person wholeaned into challenges in life
(09:36):
and tended to engage and not shyaway from them, and I'm.
I have no doubt that sheinfluenced me in that way and
that's part of the reason why Ifelt like I should make time to
be involved in that andvolunteer with that group.
But how about a shout out toall the moms out there?
Tom Butler (09:53):
That's right.
Yay, moms.
Now you're a leader.
You've led diverseorganizations, from tech
startups to nonprofits, fromtech startups to nonprofits, and
I'm wondering, in that capacityof being a leader, what have
you learned about engagingpeople with advocacy efforts?
Michael Payne (10:19):
It's a good question, I think you know.
One of the things that I havelearned is that different people
are motivated by differentreasons.
Bicycle advocacy organizationsreally have to find out what
motivates their population andmake sure they're communicating
in a way that reaches thataudience.
Some people are motivated outof principle.
(10:39):
Other people have to go on ajourney before they really
embrace bicycle advocacy, andyou know so.
Bicycle organizations organizerides and bring people into the
community through recreation andthrough fun.
As a channel to reach people.
There's definitely an elementof understanding who you're
communicating with and makingsure that you're giving them
(11:00):
what they need and meeting themwhere they are and helping bring
what they need to their lives.
Tom Butler (11:04):
You and I met we're down in Olympia.
There was WA Bikes WashingtonBikes.
It was there advocating forbicycle legislation and funding
safe street legislation, and sowe got to hang out, and you know
, with other cyclists that wereadvocating for change or for
(11:30):
protecting funding.
I think cyclists are justreally fun people to be around.
I mean, maybe that's a bias Ihave, but it seems like there's
something you know about a groupof cyclists is really fun to
hang out.
Michael Payne (11:43):
I enjoy all aspects of it as well, and there
you know about a group ofcyclists is really fun to hang
out.
I enjoy all aspects of it aswell.
And there, you know, I thinkthere's something about people
who are engaging for somethingbetter as well which is sort of
inspirational and and uplifting,and I find that that's a great
thing to have in your life.
You know, you don't get thatout of all other aspects of life
necessarily, but puttingyourself in an environment where
(12:06):
people are working for positivechange is a positive thing, and
that certainly was true of thebicycle advocacy that I've been
involved in in the past, and Ithink it's just sort of
fundamental to the people whoare attracted to it.
Tom Butler (12:21):
One of the leadership roles you were in was
the first executive director ofBike Houston.
What led to the launch of BikeHouston?
Michael Payne (12:33):
Can you talk a little bit about that
organization?
A lot of times bicycle advocacyorganizations start as a few
people who ride getting togetherand saying, hey, let's get
organized and let's try andimprove conditions.
And they start meeting monthly,they start engaging with their
(12:54):
city council members or theirstate representatives talking
about problems, and they do iton a volunteer basis for some
period of time.
As momentum grows, as theirability to generate revenue
grows, they start to think, gee,you know, depending on the size
of the community and the citythat they're working in the
capacity to raise money iseasier or more difficult.
(13:16):
But they often get to a pointwhere they say, gee, there's a
lot of work to do here.
Let's take some of the moneythat we're raising and let's
hire a staff person tocoordinate this activity and to
run this organization.
And then it goes from being anall-volunteer team to having its
first employee and maybeopening an office somewhere and
increasing the level of activityengagement.
(13:37):
And that's really where BikeHouston was at that point.
It had existed as anorganization for many years.
It organized some rides, it hada bit of a budget, it had a
small group of sort of dedicatedvolunteers and members, but it
was wanting to make the nextstep and a friend of mine said,
hey, maybe you can help them.
(13:57):
I had some free time betweenjobs and he said look, you can
do a search for them and helpthem find the right person,
knowing that I'd been involvedin it in the past.
And I said I'd be happy to workon that and started meeting
with the board and the peopleand looking at the opportunity
and just decided that I wouldlike to be considered for that
(14:18):
opportunity and put my hat inthe ring and was able to take
that role on and do it for anumber of years and get an
office up and running, hire somestaff.
We wrote some grants, whichwere successful, fortunately,
and it was a very excitingproject to work on.
Needless to say, Nice.
Tom Butler (14:37):
Do you stay connected with that?
How would you say theconditions are in Houston for
cyclists these days?
Michael Payne (14:44):
I would say I stay in touch with the executive
director and several people onthe board and different members
as well, a couple times a yearand I still support the
organization, both financiallyas well as from a sort of an
ecosystem perspective, if youwill.
You know, I would say right nowit's tough, to be honest.
(15:05):
It's tough because, even thoughHouston has been a pretty
relatively forward-thinking cityas far as the urban area goes,
we have a mayor there now who isless convinced about the
benefits of cycling and who hasbeen pushing back and that's
quite a challenge for thecommunities there Talking about
(15:26):
removing infrastructure, bikelanes that have actually taken
years to be put in place andnobody's really asking for them
to be taken out.
But for some reason there is abit of a bike lash moment
happening in Houston, which yousee in other parts of the world
at times.
Tom Butler (15:43):
That's interesting and it's kind of interesting to
follow that to see what theprogression of that is like.
Michael Payne (15:50):
It is even in a place like Seattle and you know,
in Bellevue.
There are issues here locallyas well, which you know.
Things come up and peoplechange in elected offices.
They come in and they havedifferent priorities, and that's
something that the cyclingcommunity needs to remain on top
of and vigilant about.
Tom Butler (16:10):
Now you served on numerous boards, including Safe
Routes to School, and I'mwondering your perspective on
how important it is forlike-minded organizations to
collaborate on.
You know things like safestreets and public health and
well-being.
Michael Payne (16:27):
From my perspective, partnering is
fundamental to the success ofnonprofit organizations.
It is.
It's something that bringscredibility to the organization
in terms of the you know, whenstakeholders see them working
together, they see buy-in ondifferent shared objectives.
It's something that bringslearning as people talk about
(16:49):
the environment, what's going on, they share ideas.
It accelerates change.
It leverages the activitybasically to help achieve
outcomes faster, which is reallywhat it's all about.
Tom Butler (17:01):
Yeah, I like it.
Yeah, what it's all about.
Yeah, I like it.
Yeah, an organization that Ihave, for quite a while, been
curious about is the league ofAmerican bicyclists, and you're
a board member of the league.
Um, is it called the league forshort, or how do you guys refer
to it?
Michael Payne (17:19):
It is.
Some people call it the leaguefor short.
Yes, okay, sometimes thewebsite is bikeleagueorg, for
example.
So that's also.
You know.
The bike league sometimes isreferred to the league,
sometimes people.
The old name was, of course,the League of American Wheelmen.
Some people call it LAW or law,and that's sort of if you're
(17:41):
speaking with old timers youmight hear people say that as
well.
Tom Butler (17:45):
Yeah, Now I'm wondering, as a board member,
what excites you about theorganization?
Michael Payne (17:53):
I think fundamentally the most exciting
thing about the organization isthe potential to continue to
grow where we are today, giventhe opportunity in front of us
and when you think about what'shappening in North America we're
in the United Statesspecifically we're selling about
20 million bicycles a year.
(18:13):
Those bicycles are going to, youknow, everyone from age four up
to age whatever, 90, if youwill, but in our country there
are, you know, there are surveysdone on how much bicycles are
being ridden by the bicycleindustry, the people that
manufacture the bicycles, and weknow that there are about 110
(18:35):
million people a year who ride abike, you know, several times a
year and the last 12 monthshave been riding.
So for selling 20 million a year, you know you can easily say
there's there's probably 200million bicycles in our country
of 340 million people, but inthe last 12 months 100 plus have
(18:57):
been writing and a very smallnumber of those are actually
engaged in bicycle advocacy.
So from my perspective, there'sa very exciting opportunity to
communicate with people who ownbicycles but have never engaged
in advocacy either personally,in terms of volunteering, as you
were talking you've just beendoing how we met or who donate
(19:18):
any money to fund the staff whocould advocate on their behalf,
which is a great alternative forpeople who are too busy to
advocate or don't want to dothat because they would rather
go ride their bicycle orwhatever.
Right, I'm excited aboutgrowing those numbers.
Tom Butler (19:33):
When you say you're excited about it.
Do you think that there aresome you've figured out, or that
it's figured out, how toimprove that engagement, or is
there still a lot to uncoverabout how to get those people
engaged?
Michael Payne (19:49):
I wish I could say I've totally figured it out,
tom.
It'd be a slam dunk.
We're going to get everyone whoowns a bicycle to engage in
advocacy, because if we couldget 1% of people who own a
bicycle to engage in advocacy,that would be great.
We would have a very powerfulbicycle lobby in our country and
(20:09):
we would see change in asignificant way in terms of
infrastructure that allowspeople of all ages to cycle
around their cities, to get outof town into rural areas safely
and comfortably, without havingto stop and wait and cross
dangerous intersections and allthose sorts of things.
So I certainly don't thinkwe've figured it out.
(20:30):
My hope is that by peoplegetting engaged who want to see
change and who want to work onhow do we grow the pie of people
who donate a small amount ofmoney or a small amount of time
to advocacy, that we canaccelerate the process and that
can go faster and faster as wego forward.
Now I'm hopeful, but I don'tthink we've solved it yet and I
(20:55):
think at the end of the day, itboils down to fundamentally
understanding where people areand what they want out of their
future.
I mean, we know there are 115million people that have ridden
a bike in the last 12 months.
We know in the United States,if you look at charitable giving
as a sort of a researchcategory, that two-thirds of
(21:18):
Americans donate to charityevery year to charitable causes.
So if you take those numbersand put them together and you
say about two thirds of thepeople who ride bikes are
probably donating to charity,that's about 75 million people,
right, and we just need totarget that group of people and
ask those people to lean in abit on bicycle advocacy and
(21:41):
either support the league at anational level or support their
state or local level, or supporttheir state or local level or
support all three.
Quite frankly, you know, giving50 bucks a piece to each of
those three organizations, ifpeople could afford to do that,
would be a great contribution tochange.
Tom Butler (21:55):
You know, something that's popped in my head here as
you're talking is there's agroup of people that most likely
have bikes in their garages,that are lawmakers.
I'm wondering.
It seems like there's a view ofwhat the bicycle is.
Maybe that people don't thinkthat it needs to be protected.
Michael Payne (22:18):
Well, it's funny you should say that I met with
three of my representatives inOlympia earlier this week.
I met with three of myrepresentatives in Olympia
earlier this week and I askedthe two, who were positive about
bicycles, if they own bicyclesand they both said yes, they do,
and neither of them areactively using them.
I think they fall in thatcategory of maybe 100 million
(22:48):
bikes or so that are owned andout there that haven't been
ridden in the last 12 months, ormaybe, if they have, just
minimally.
But of course WA Bikes isoffering, and I'm offering, to
take those people for a ride andhelp them get to know their
community a little bit moreintimately and see it from the
top of a bicycle, and we hope todo that this spring as the
weather warms up.
But that's certainly a greatway to engage with your
representatives as you talk tothem about their own personal
(23:10):
experience.
Why don't you ride more often?
What prevents you from doingthat?
Why are you not comfortable?
Tom Butler (23:17):
was my way of navigating around that town.
There was never a thought in myfamily, you know, there wasn't
a fear of me jumping on my bikeat a young age and taking off,
you know, and it seems likegetting people to think about.
(23:38):
You know, do you feel it's safeto let your kid go out on the
road, you know, on their bike?
And I'm not even talking aboutalone, I'm talking about do you
feel it's safe riding on theroads with your nine-year-old
kid?
Right, you know, and just thatconcept.
(24:00):
It seems like a really such awholesome thing that people do,
and just that concept.
Do you see it safe?
Michael Payne (24:07):
Well, an interesting thing is when you
read about the history of ourcountry and the history of the
creation of the roads.
Of course, the first road userswere not cars, and you know,
road users were people, andhorses and horse drawn carriages
and wagons, if you will.
And it wasn't untilsignificantly later that cars
(24:32):
came to the road along withmotorcycles, and there became
this issue of sharing the roads.
And then we moved to.
No roads are dominated by carsand their motorcycles are out
there trying to survive, and afew bicyclists are trying to
survive using the roads as well.
And so this whole shift hastaken place whereby legally—
(24:54):
horses and people and bikes andeverybody still has a right to
the to use the roads, but theyou know, the reality is the
roads have been designed to movecars as fast as possible, not
to create a safe environment forall road users.
You know, that's somethingwe're now trying to correct yeah
(25:15):
, and really think about on adeep level.
Tom Butler (25:18):
You know and we were talking about this last episode
as well a book called FightingTraffic by Peter Norton.
You know it's just steppingback and philosophically, you
know, asking the question is dowe want to be so car centric, so
automobile centric in ourcountry?
It's a I think it's a fairquestion to ask.
Michael Payne (25:40):
You know, it's something that unfortunately we
live in a very large country andmany people it's very expensive
to leave the country.
Many people don't have theopportunity to look around and
live in other countries or visitother countries and see how
other things are happening.
I'm a big believer inbenchmarking and, wherever you
can, zooming out to a high leveland sortates.
(26:00):
Bicycling and walking is prettyamazing and it leads to a very
(26:30):
high quality of life wherepeople are very happy, they're
very healthy and they're ridingtheir bikes a lot.
Tom Butler (26:37):
The League of American Bicyclists has existed
since 1880.
You mentioned that it existedunder another name for a while.
It blows me away.
I mean that is a long time foran organization to be going.
I'm wondering if you have somethoughts about what contributes
to that longevity.
Michael Payne (26:58):
I guess what I would say is you have to stay
relevant, right.
You have to evolve as anorganization or as a company or
as a product in order to survivethe way our world works.
There's competition and we haveto raise our money every year to
pay the staff and to fund thewebsite and the activities and
(27:18):
the programs that are deliveredas benefits to our stakeholders.
So continuing to try and listenand understand where people are
and what they want isfundamental.
It's really important to us asan organization and if there are
listeners to this podcast whohave feedback they'd like to
(27:38):
share on the league over thelast year or two recent feedback
, I would love to take thatfeedback in and represent it to
the organization as a means oftrying to stay relevant and
trying to serve our stakeholdersand our constituents as best as
we can, just as a sort of anopen message.
You know, at the end of the day, you have to change what you're
(27:59):
offering and you have to listento what people want in order to
to survive and to grow.
And and you know, I think wecan do better as an organization
to be perfectly direct, and youknow I I hope we will do better
and we will grow more and bemore effective in in meeting
people's needs.
Tom Butler (28:15):
You mentioned to me that you feel that part of that
effectiveness is having a strongrelationship between the league
and local advocacy groups.
I'm wondering if there's somespecific strategies that you
think of in fostering thatcollaboration.
Michael Payne (28:33):
This is something that has happened.
It has existed for some time.
If you were starting a countryon a blank piece of paper and
you were saying, how am I goingto design an organization to
meet the needs of cyclistsacross the country?
And there was money coming outof a federal government that was
being distributed to stategovernments and county
(28:54):
governments, you could envisionone organization and county
governments.
You could envision oneorganization that operated at
all three levels at the nationallevel, state level and the
county, local level.
That's not the history ofbicycle advocacy in our country.
It's been a grassrootsevolution where organizations
grow up.
People tend to get involved inadvocacy, first on very, very
(29:16):
local issues, somethinghappening in their neighborhood,
on their street.
They care about that, so theyform groups, they get organized
and then they learn more aboutwhat's happening at a state
level and how it interrelatesand maybe they support that
organization also.
And then they sort of say, ohyeah, but where's all this money
coming from?
It's coming from the federalgovernment, or 80% of it's
coming from the federalgovernment.
So maybe I should support theLeague of American Bicyclists
(29:38):
also and help strengthen thatwhole pipeline.
To get more funds flowing youhave to believe in the system.
It's further removed, it takeslonger, more time than working
on a street in your ownneighborhood, but that actually
is the journey that many peoplego down as they discover
advocacy on a broader level.
So, you know, creating aculture of collaboration and
(30:02):
cooperation between the localgroups and the state and
national groups is veryimportant.
And trust, quite frankly andyou know there's a great saying
that change happens at the speedof trust.
And as you build trust betweenthe organizations, change
happens faster because they'recollaborating more, they're
cooperating more and not seeingeach other as a competitor.
(30:24):
For you know, a $50 membershipdonation that maybe a cyclist
isn't going to give to twoorganizations, so they don't
want to miss out on that.
And I think we have to getbeyond the fear of competition
and work together as advocatesto build one giant tent and pull
all the cyclists into it.
Tom Butler (30:43):
The league is in Washington DC.
That means that I have peoplein Washington DC that are
passionate about cycling, likeI'm passionate about cycling.
Do you think that that makes adifference?
Just being there?
Michael Payne (30:57):
I think it's very important that they are there
so that they can meet withstaffers, they can meet with
congressmen, senators, wherepossible, to help shape the
agenda and to engage indiscussions and be at the table,
have a seat at the table.
I do think that it's importantfor the league to be out in the
field as well and to get aroundthe country and to talk to
(31:18):
people, let people know who theyare and what they're doing and,
you know, to be guest speakersat state organizations or city
organizations and to show uponce a year and tell the story
of what's happening and thatthat is that's very important
and I think, quite frankly,there's a big role to be played
by an organization like theleague in terms of sharing best
practices and having an overviewof what's happening all around
(31:41):
the country and saying look,okay, you guys are.
You now have three paid staffand you're trying to get to six
paid staff in the next two years.
How are you going to raise themoney to fund that activity and
that expansion?
Here's how your revenues arebreaking down.
Now you should think aboutdoing X, y and Z to grow your
revenues and strengthen yourteam, given where you are on the
(32:04):
sort of journey as an advocacyorganization, and you know we
are doing that and we need to domore of it and we need to do it
faster.
Tom Butler (32:15):
There's a few organizations out there that are
interested in activetransportation, and I'm a huge
fan of that because I think it'sa vital element of being more
healthy as a nation, of gettingout and walking or riding or
(32:37):
skateboarding or whatever youknow, and being active is just
so vital.
And I think about Rails toTrails and you know this is the
Great American Rail Trail islike one of those projects that
are weaving together regionafter region after region across
the US, region after regionafter region across the US.
(32:59):
And when you talk aboutcollaboration, it seems like
there's a moment now where someof these cycling highways and
other projects are almostdemanding a collaborative
approach.
I'm wondering, as you look atthat, is that something that
helps you be optimistic aboutthe future?
(33:19):
What are your thoughts there?
Michael Payne (33:21):
In general, I am optimistic In general.
I think that people are havingfun riding their bikes, they're
enjoying getting out there,they're seeing progress with
respect to high comfort, lowstress, places to ride.
That is happening slowly,little by little, in a lot of
communities around our country.
(33:41):
It's not happening everywhere.
I mean I say that sitting inWashington state, which is
ranked number one out of all 50states, right so?
And I can also tell you there'sa lot more to be done here in
the Seattle and the Washingtonarea and you could go riding
here and you compare it toriding around you know, some
sort of third tier city in ruralNetherlands and it's, it's a
(34:03):
lot more comfortable to ridethere than it is here in our
number one, you know mostdeveloped bicycle state, and and
so you know we have a lot ofwork to do.
But but I do think we're makingprogress.
I think people are experiencingit.
I think people are seeing it.
They're seeing it on television, they're understanding it and
they know that it's possible.
(34:25):
So I think the real key is tolean in and to unite, because as
long as we just sort of remainfragmented as individuals not a
member of our local advocacygroup, not a member of our state
or not a member of our federal.
We're not a member of our stateor not a member of our federal.
We're actually not even beingcounted.
We're not having an impact,we're not moving the needle, and
that's right where you know thecar the anti-bike people want
(34:51):
us to be, you know, and mostpeople who ride bicycles drive
cars also, and they, you know,and they see the benefit of it.
So I'm not saying I'm anti-carI certainly am not.
I enjoy driving my car verymuch, but I do think it's
important to unite as cyclistsin order to get the
representation that we deserve.
Tom Butler (35:11):
Now you've mentioned other countries a couple times
and you had an opportunity tolive in another country and in
other regions and visit otherregions a lot.
Michael Payne (35:31):
I wonder if you could talk about that
opportunity and also talk abouthow that molded your perspective
.
Yeah, I was interested inbicycle advocacy before I had
the opportunity to live abroadon a longer term basis.
I studied abroad some, but Iwas able to live and work in the
Netherlands.
I've also lived in France for ayear, I've lived in the UK for
a year, I've lived in Panama andI've lived in Chile.
(35:52):
There's no one way to live onthis planet and there's no one
right answer.
But I can tell you, when youdesign your city around people
rather than around cars, itmakes it a very pleasant place
to live.
As a person who is outside oftheir car at times and they've
been able to do that in theNetherlands and they you know
(36:14):
they put money into sidewalks.
You know I've lived in placeslike Houston which actually
don't have sidewalks in a lot ofplaces.
There's the road and thenthere's people's yards in
certain areas and that's quitechallenging and distracting.
As a young parent pushing ababy carriage down the road, you
know, worrying about cars goingby.
The attention to detail that'sput into the infrastructure and
(36:37):
the built environment in theNetherlands makes it a very safe
place to walk and to bike andit makes it very pleasant.
You don't hesitate to jump onyour bike to run errands or to
send your kids to school ontheir own from quite a young age
and, as a result of that,people are riding throughout
their entire lives.
You know, the type 2 diabetesis much, much lower, the heart
(37:01):
disease is much, much lower, therates of obesity are much lower
, and that has everything to dowith creating a built
environment where people feelcomfortable getting out and
moving around.
Tom Butler (37:14):
I had a conversation with Tom Babin a while ago on
the podcast.
I had a conversation with TomBabin a while ago on the podcast
(37:41):
and I think he made anobservation that you know you
can judge the health of thecycling infrastructure more by
someone dressed to go to themarket on their bike, rather
than you know someone who's outfor fitness activities.
You know, like me, I'm willingto brave the roads a little bit,
but but you kind of you know, Ithink culturally you see people
dress differently in theNetherlands and you know their
bikes are a little bit different.
Michael Payne (37:53):
Absolutely.
Now, people are.
People are comfortable cyclingand whatever clothes they're
comfortable wearing, and theirbikes are designed to protect
their clothing, with fenders andmud flaps and chain guards and
with a nice upright geometrywhich makes them very
comfortable for riding around.
Now, obviously, they don't havethe hills to climb in the same
(38:21):
way that we do in some parts ofour country, but they also do
face their own set of challengesin terms of wind and rain and
so forth.
Tom Butler (38:26):
Now you have an entrepreneurial mindset.
I believe that is a fair thingto say.
Looking at your history, I'mwondering if that influences the
way that you think aboutbicycle advocacy.
Michael Payne (38:50):
I'm sure if that influences the way that you
think about bicycle advocacy tothe organizations I'm involved
with keep a focus on where weget the right outcomes for our
effort and our energy that we'reputting into keeping our
organizations alive and relevant.
You know, for another hundredyears if you will.
And you know it's a combinationof thinking about what are the
(39:11):
outcomes that we need to achieveand how are we going to get
them.
And you know I'm a big believerin the skills and the tools
that you are applied inentrepreneurial settings or that
you may learn in businessschool and applying those to
nonprofits and to government andto other all the ports of
organizations where you know.
(39:31):
From my point of view, thinkingabout marketing strategy is
equally as important to abicycle advocacy organization
that it is to as it is to afast-moving consumer bike
infrastructure pitch meeting oflike let's get really innovative
.
Tom Butler (40:09):
Let's just really think out of the box, who can
come up with some, you know,like really cool new ideas?
It seems like that's kind ofthat energy of
entrepreneurialism that could beinfused.
Michael Payne (40:23):
I like it and, coincidentally so, my youngest
child is a junior in high schooland his school organizes these
entrepreneurship competitionsand invites kids from other
schools to come and participatein them.
Right, and I was a judge a fewmonths ago in one of the
(40:44):
competitions and I've beenworking with the staff on
organizing the next competitionand we're trying to do social
entrepreneurship as far as thisnext round goes and have the
kids work on some socialentrepreneurship challenges as
part of it, and I've pitchedbicycle advocacy as one of the
challenges that I would likethem to put to the kids and see
(41:08):
how the kids approach it.
Right, but I like your idea oforganizing a whole full blown
innovation, bring you knowcompetition, if you will, for
the Seattle community to bringpeople together and I'm going to
talk to Lee about how we can dothat and mix it with some beer
and make it into something fun,you know.
Tom Butler (41:30):
I like it.
I'll be there, for sure, yeahit.
Michael Payne (41:33):
it's, it's a really good idea.
I think it's the kind of thingthat people would show up for
and they'd be excited to comeand brainstorm on and, quite
frankly, probably generate a lotof good ideas as well.
Tom Butler (41:47):
So if you were going to think about, like, the
current state of cyclinginfrastructure, are there some
specific things that you wouldput at the top of a list of
change items?
Michael Payne (42:00):
That's a big question when I think about the
challenge of changing our builtenvironment.
If you assume for a moment thatwe have or environment in an
(42:21):
area is, somebody does a plan, abicycle master plan that is
then shared with the people inall different parts of the
communities, and you prioritizeyour improvements and you start
rolling out your improvements inthe infrastructure as you redo
(42:42):
the roads, because that's themost cost-effective time to make
those changes and roads don'tget redone every day.
So over a long period of timewhen you have the budget, you
start with your highestpriorities, your most dangerous
areas, your backbone connectingpieces.
You know that link thingstogether and you begin
(43:03):
implementing those gradually.
So you know, one of thefrustrating things about this
space is that it takes a longtime, even when things are going
well, to see progress and tosee change and it's just slow,
long work because you don'talways have a bicycle master
(43:25):
plan to start off with and youdon't always have a political
environment that's supportive ofcycling.
A lot of times you have peoplethat are fighting you and
opponents and you have to workto demonstrate the need and the
interest and convince people.
Well, we should be spending anymoney at all on making these
improvements, as opposed to justpicking up the bodies and
getting them throwing them inthe van if people get injured or
(43:47):
killed.
Getting them throwing them inthe van if people get injured or
killed.
So you know, I guess I don'thave one specific sort of type
of bike path necessarily.
I mean I do.
I'm a big believer in planningand letting the planners do
their work and figure out wherepeople are trying to move,
what's a safe and cost-effectiveway to accommodate them and
(44:11):
where can we get early wins onthe grid in the network that
allow people to actually goplaces they want to go and not
get stuck hanging in reallydangerous areas that are
confusing and not pleasant toexperience.
So building out the network issuper important, not pleasant to
experience.
So you know, building out thenetwork is super important.
(44:31):
You know looking for ways to doit as quickly as possible.
You know, if I could changethings, you know it would be
more top-down push of money onbuilding complete streets and
integrating bicycle-friendlyinfrastructure without debate
wherever it can be done, as fastas possible.
But, you know, starting withbig arteries that allow people
(44:54):
to move across the trickierparts, busier roads, bridges and
things like that that are pinchpoints.
Tom Butler (45:03):
I like that.
You know, and I think thatobservation is so valuable that
streets aren't something thatchange every day.
It has to be part of planningin order for years, planning
years ahead in order to reallybe efficient with the process.
Michael Payne (45:23):
Yeah, and there is a limited amount of money.
And one of the things thatmakes the United States
difficult compared to Europe isdensity, and in the Netherlands
in particular, it is a denselypopulated area.
A third, I think a full thirdof the country lives in some
sort of government-supportedhousing, which tend to be
(45:44):
apartment buildings, relativelydense apartment buildings,
apartment buildings, relativelydense apartment buildings.
And that's very cost efficient.
But it's also very planningefficient in terms of bicycle
infrastructure and creatingvillages and towns where people
can get to what they need ontheir bicycle, they can get to a
train station, they can move toa different part of the country
.
And we, you know the scale andsize of our country.
(46:07):
Not only is it 20 times biggerin terms of population, you know
, it's probably I don't know,I'm just going to guess 150
times bigger in terms oflandmass, and probably a
thousand times, for that matter,who knows?
It's huge, it's huge and thedistances are vast.
Tom Butler (46:26):
So it's a different set of challenges distances are
vast, so it's a different set ofchallenges.
Yeah, Do you think publictransportation is vital to as
far as cycling access?
Do you see that in theNetherlands that the public
transportation is essential linkin cycling around?
Michael Payne (46:41):
I do, and and the reason I say that is you know,
the Netherlands is a country ofabout 18 million people and the
largest metropolitan areasreally are about a million
inhabitants.
So Amsterdam, the Hague,rotterdam are the three largest
cities, and those economies arebuilt on a model whereby people
(47:06):
will live in other villages andcommuter suburbs.
If you will commuter villagesfurther away and the train
system is actively used there,they will bike to the train
station, jump on a train intothe town where they have a job,
work there, either walking orgrabbing another bike.
And if you go to the trainstations now and they have
(47:29):
massive, public,state-of-the-art bicycle parking
garages underneath the trainstations and they're spotless,
they're painted, they'rebeautiful, and there are videos
on YouTube.
If you Google, you know Utrechttrain station or the Hague train
station, you can see them andthey're extremely impressive.
(47:49):
But people have another bikethere that they'll jump on and
then they'll ride to theiroffice and that's the way they
structure their lives, so thatthey can move around quickly and
easily.
And it's you know.
They also have loaner bikes atthe train stations, where you
buy your train ticket and youget a loaner bike.
And if you don't, you know ifyou're going to a town where you
don't, and if you're going to atown where you don't go very
often, you manage it that way.
Tom Butler (48:10):
It's a lot of pieces to it, and so we do have a ways
to go.
Michael Payne (48:16):
And we have a different model.
We have a country that hasgrown up after the invention of
the automobile, which is reallynot the way the Netherlands grew
up.
Tom Butler (48:28):
I want to shift gears here.
Talk a little bit about howcycling has enriched your life
personally.
Michael Payne (48:33):
Like many people, I have enjoyed various aspects
of cycling in different ways atdifferent times.
I enjoyed the adventure andexploration as a child, riding
around the neighborhood.
I enjoyed riding around campus,university.
I enjoyed mountain bike racing,you know, as a young man, in
(48:54):
early years and in the earlydays, of mountain biking.
And I've also enjoyed, you know, group rides and participating
in slow rides and going out in acritical mass ride and seeing
different cities through thelens of critical mass and doing
large, organized rides as well.
And you know I do a triathlononce a year just for fun, a
(49:18):
small one, and enjoy that sortof personal challenge of seeing
how my body is holding up overtime, doing the same ride every
year.
And I think most importantlythrough all that is the
companions that you ride withand the people that you get to
know and the fact that you canhave conversations while you
ride and you talk.
(49:39):
And you know I love the I livedin Houston for a period of time
and hearing people talk abouthow cycling was becoming, you
know, the new golf from abusiness perspective, because
people could have meaningfulconversations outside of sort of
the structure of the office andtalk about problems and get to
know one another and decide towork together.
(50:00):
And you know, they make thingshappen.
Tom Butler (50:03):
Change happens that way, you know there is an
element of that that's reallyinteresting to me.
Secondly, being new golf,because you know, one thing that
I found was you know whenyou're getting busy.
You know when you get thatpoint in your life and your
career where you're getting busyand you're trying to grow your
(50:25):
career and you're trying to showyour value to a company.
You know, I found that time tobe very difficult because no one
prioritized being active.
It was like if you're sittingin front of your computer or
going to meetings in a in arestaurant, meeting people in
(50:47):
restaurants and attendingmeetings and all of that like
that was stuff that wasrewarding.
There wasn't like an inherentreward in being active.
Michael Payne (51:00):
Yeah, no, it is a problem with our species in our
country.
I mean, our species was notdesigned to sit at a desk all
day.
It was designed to walk arounddoing stuff outdoors.
And we have entered this phasein the last couple hundred years
where we kind of sit on ourrear ends, and it's not good.
Tom Butler (51:19):
How did you navigate that.
Michael Payne (51:21):
Well, I certainly experienced what you're
describing.
You know, on a professionallevel, finding times where you
know, particularly as a youngparent with young children at
home, where you're working andstruggling, you know, to get
everything delivered and meetthe objectives from a company
perspective but then alsorushing to your role as a father
(51:44):
with limited time.
You know for exercise and youknow certainly the one good
thing I can say is part of thattime I was bicycle commuting,
you know, to the office in theNetherlands, which helped a lot,
and part of the time I was, youknow, cycling in Atlanta or in
Houston or other places.
But I think you know.
(52:06):
Looking back as an older personnow, I guess I would certainly
say when I speak to peopleyounger in their careers, I make
an effort to emphasize thatthey're not invincible, that
their health actually should bea priority and that if they burn
it too hard it's going to getthem People.
Many people run intohealth-related challenges which
(52:28):
are tied to not getting enoughrest, not getting enough
exercise and having too muchstress.
Tom Butler (52:34):
One of the messages I think of cycling over 60 is
that if you're in your 50s, late50s, early 60s even, but if
you're in your mid-50s and yourlife has been that thing where
parenting and career andeverything has kept you from
being active, it's not too late.
You know it's like get on abike now.
(52:57):
You know, maybe your kids areout of the house now you have a
little bit differentresponsibility there.
Engage your kids.
I've been so fortunate that myadult kids are, you know,
joining me on cycling adventures.
You'll benefit immensely.
I mean, I'm just an example ofsomeone who's benefited
immensely by by getting outthere and doing it.
Michael Payne (53:21):
I think it's great advice.
It's definitely not too late.
You know, I'm as I mentioned toyou.
I'm cycling with people 25years older than I am who are
doing great and it'sinspirational.
So what?
Tom Butler (53:37):
are your thoughts about that?
Do you have every intention tokeep cycling later on in life?
Michael Payne (53:42):
I do, I do.
I feel like there are a coupleof things that have struck me in
my life that I look forward tocontinuing doing.
You know, hiking is one,cycling is one, swimming and sea
kayaking, quite frankly, isanother sort of rhythmic
activity which you know fromearly in my life, and I started
off as a whitewater paddler andat a certain point I'm like I
(54:06):
don't need this risk of killingmyself quite anymore, as much
anymore as I did when I started,for some reason.
So I shifted over more to seakayaking and it's another great
sort of rhythmic outdooractivity that I think lends
itself well to longevity.
Tom Butler (54:24):
Yeah, and we live in a place that's amazing.
So, yeah, you told me you spentsome time on the Olympic
Discovery Trail last summer andI'm wondering if you could talk
about that a bit, because Ithink that is such a unique
resource out there for cycling.
Michael Payne (54:39):
Sure, well, you know you're asking about how
cycling has impacted my life andone of the ways.
One of my longtime cyclingbuddies gets a group of guys
together once a year and we dosome riding somewhere in
different locations, we do somehiking and just catch up and
have fun.
I've been doing that for over10 years and it's such a fun
activity that I've sort ofdecided to start my own version
(55:01):
of that by putting together aride once a year.
Last year I had a couple ofbuddies guys and girls come into
town and join me for riding thesection of the Olympic
discovery trail out to uh LaPush Rialto beach, both, and you
know and and checked out theWest coast of the peninsula and
(55:22):
then cycle back and camped alongthe way, staying in the
(55:42):
campgrounds and uh, carrying allour our own gear.
And that was my first bikepacking trip like that.
Uh, it was a lot of fun.
Looking forward to doing moreof them.
Tom Butler (55:50):
It was a lot of fun.
Looking forward to doing moreof them.
Michael Payne (55:53):
How did you find the trail?
Was it what you expected?
Well, the way I describe it is.
It ranged from sublime tosuicidal.
Unfortunately, there's stillsome gaps, tom, that need to be
fixed in a few places there, butmuch of it is amazing.
Much of it is on an old railwaywith a very moderate, you know,
one to two percent grade, goingthrough beautiful forests along
(56:14):
the banks of Lake Crescent andparts of it were gravel and
through the woods and a lot ofit's amazing onto the highway,
you know, where there arelogging trucks and cars going 60
miles an hour and every now andthen and not much shoulder, and
every now and then the roadnarrows to a bridge where
(56:36):
there's no shoulder.
And if you happen to be on thebridge and there's two cars
coming both directions, going atfull speed, then that's a
that's a real unpleasantsituation to be in.
Overall, it was great and Iwould recommend it, but you know
the looking forward to themfiguring out those gaps and
hopefully they get the supportthey need from the local
(56:59):
advocate advocacy community.
Tom Butler (57:01):
Right, it's one of those projects I think to really
follow, cause it's it's such aunique environment, you know,
and you're going through areasthat are like in the rain shadow
and areas that are rainforests,and it's an incredible resource
.
Michael Payne (57:18):
You know, I would encourage people to go to the
website and to check it out.
The Olympic Discovery Trail Ithink it's org actually, you
know is a group of hardworkingpeople and I think they've been
working on it for over 30 yearsnow in terms of putting pieces
together and linking it alltogether, in terms of testament
to people's patience andpersistence and the financial
contributions to support from awide range of people.
(57:42):
It's a great example of howthings happen, little by little,
thanks to the hard work of adedicated group.
Tom Butler (57:50):
Well, I'll put a link to the website there in the
show notes.
Michael, I appreciate so much.
You know it was really shortnotice having you come on and
thanks so much for taking thetime to do this.
And I just have really enjoyedthis discussion and I enjoy
working with you more in thearea and seeing you more at
(58:13):
different advocacy events.
Michael Payne (58:16):
Thank you, tom.
It's been great fun and I'mglad we met and look forward to
going for a ride sometime soon.
And thanks for creating aplatform for talking about
advocacy in general, but alsoabout the Cascade Bicycle Club
and the League of AmericanBicyclists.
Those are two organizationswhich I would encourage people
to look more into, or your ownlocal organization, wherever you
(58:38):
may be in the world, and thereare advocacy organizations in
all different parts of the world, and if there's not, maybe you
should think about starting onefor those who out there find
themselves in that situation.
Tom Butler (58:49):
Yeah, awesome advice .
All right, talk to you laternow.
Michael Payne (58:52):
Thank you very much.
Tom Butler (59:01):
It's hard to imagine someone listening to this
podcast who isn't already a fanof cycling.
So I know that I'm speaking tothe choir when I'm talking about
bicycle advocacy here.
But talking to Michael causedme to ask the question of myself
am I doing enough?
Michael's observation of thenumber of bikes sold versus the
number of people who areadvocating for bike safety it
really hit me.
He shared that 20 millionbicycles are sold in a year and
(59:25):
110 million people ride a bikeyearly.
What would happen if we somehowengaged those people to take
action?
Let's say we only engage 10%Seems like it would be really
significant if that number ofpeople were all sharing the same
message.
I really like the idea of havingthe League of American
Bicyclists as a sort of meetingpoint for cycling advocates
across the nation.
(59:46):
An individual membership to theleague is only $50, and there
is a senior level for just $35.
That seems reasonable and Ifeel like I should try to get
more involved with them.
So I will keep you posted onwhat I learn about the
organization along the way.
I encourage all of you to findsome way to get involved in
advocacy.
Of course, the first action isto get out there and ride.
(01:00:06):
I hope that all of you arefinding a lot of opportunities
to just experience the joy ofcycling.
I think people seeing us havingfun on a bike is an extremely
positive message.
So do something great forcycling by getting out and just
having a blast.
And remember age is just a gearchange.
Thank you.
This is the Cycling Over 60 podcast, season three,
episode 18, becoming a bikeadvocate, and I'm your host, tom
Butler.
I'm coming up on two yearssince the launch of the Cycling
(00:26):
Over 60 podcast.
The podcast has given me theopportunity to meet so many
awesome people, so I'm happythat there are a few ways to
join in with the Cycling Over 60community now.
First, send feedback and helpshape the podcast by sending me
a text message.
At the top of the show notesyou should see a link that says
send me a text message, or youcan find my email address in the
(00:47):
show notes.
Another way of participating isby joining the Cycling Over 60
Strava Club.
I know I say this all the time,but I just love seeing the
rides you all are doing.
A relatively new communityactivity is for anybody who has
an indoor trainer.
I'm opening up a Zoom chat at 3pm Pacific time on Thursdays.
If you use Zwift, you can alsojoin our virtual ride at the
(01:10):
same time by becoming a memberof the Cycling Over 60 Zwift
group.
It was so fun being joined byLinda and Jeff last Thursday and
I look forward to seeing morepeople join in.
If you don't have Zwift but youhave a trainer.
Consider scheduling a time forThursdays at 3 pm Pacific time
and drop by the Zoom chat tojoin us.
Or even if you aren't writingon Thursday, drop by the Zoom
(01:33):
chat and say hi or ask aquestion.
Reach out through email for theZoom link or if you have any
questions about gettingconnected.
One of the areas of focus thisseason is personalized medicine
getting connected.
One of the areas of focus thisseason is personalized medicine.
It has been an interestingjourney to understand my health
on a more individual andfunctional level.
I'm disappointed that one of mybiggest issues is that my
(01:53):
pancreas isn't functioningnormally.
Hopefully, medical researchwill help find a way to restore
beta cell function.
It's likely that I'll bemodifying my food intake for the
rest of my life to overcomethat dysfunction.
As I have said here before, Irecommend people to look beyond
blood glucose level and makesure that your insulin output is
(02:15):
optimal.
I've made a decision to make ashift to my diet.
There are people that believethat a very low-fat, plant-based
diet is the only way tooptimize glucose utilization at
the cellular level.
Some of you might know fromlistening to the podcast that my
wife, kelly, is one of thosebelievers.
While I'm not crazy aboutmaking this shift, it is worth
it for me to give it a try.
(02:36):
I'm actually going to give itsix months before making a call
about whether or not it issomething I want to continue to
do.
You'll be hearing many moredetails about this change in the
weeks to come.
I've been trying to get readyfor the first organized group
ride of the year.
It's called Chili Hilly andit's put on by Cascade Bicycle
Club.
I'm not too worried about thechili part, but I am nervous
(02:57):
about the hilly.
If you're curious, you cansearch Chili Hilly, cascade
Bicycle Club and see the route.
I've been trying for about aweek now to build up my climbing
strength.
That's since I learned that thevirtual training that I do
doesn't really match climbingfor me in real life.
I ride a segment that is nearto my home that has a climb
(03:18):
that's about a quarter of a milelong.
It's an average grade of 10.3%,with a section that is 15 to
16%.
While it's not a long segment,it is something that really
tests me and I feel like it is agood segment for building up my
legs.
While the Chilly Hilly doesn'thave anything that steep, the
(03:39):
hills are much longer.
I'm going into the Chilly Hilly, which happens this next
weekend, with only a moderatelevel of confidence that I'm
going to be able to handle it.
One of my biggest concerns isthat I'm cramping up more often
these days and I think that hasthe potential of being an issue
in the last five miles of the32-mile Chilly Hilly route.
(04:01):
There is a food stop at 15miles, so I'm going to do my
best to have a solid crampprevention strategy for that
stop.
Let me know if you have anytried and true cramp
interventions.
The two things that I will bedoing for sure is making sure
that I am stretching out a lotwhenever we stop and also taking
in more electrolytes than Ihave in the past.
(04:22):
I set out this season to doseven organized rides before
November.
Chilly Hilly is the first oneand I'm excited to get the party
started.
Last week I spent a couple ofdays with the awesome people
from Washington Bikes in Olympia, our state capital.
(04:45):
On day one, we heard about thelegislative priorities of WAP
bikes.
We also were given instructionson how to talk about these
priorities with ourrepresentatives.
Washington is projected toexperience a major budget
shortfall over the next fewyears, so we know that funds
that should go into bikeinfrastructure are at risk for
being moved elsewhere.
On the second day, I joined mynew cycling buddy, greg, and met
(05:08):
with one of our staterepresentatives.
The entire experience was hugefor me.
I sincerely enjoyed the time wespent with our representative.
He didn't make any promises,but he listened closely to what
we had to say.
It wasn't just that I wastalking about cycling.
This was the first time I haveengaged in democracy in that way
.
I feel like this is animportant time to be engaged,
(05:28):
and I would recommend thateveryone find a group of
cyclists to join together andvisit your representatives.
One of the great people I metduring our time in Olympia is
Michael Payne.
After hearing about Michael'sinterests and background, I
asked him to be on the podcast.
I'm so glad he was willing tojoin me.
Here's our conversation.
I am joined by someone who I'vejust recently met.
(05:49):
Thank you, michael Payne, forcoming on the podcast.
Michael Payne (05:53):
Hi, tom, thanks for having me.
Tom Butler (05:56):
I wanted Michael to come on because I see Michael as
an advocate and a cyclingadvocate and I think you've had
some interesting experiences andI just wanted people to hear
from you.
Michael Payne (06:10):
Happy to join you today and I'm happy to share
with the goal that hopefullysomething is helpful to someone
out there somewhere Awesome.
Tom Butler (06:18):
Let me ask you this what is your earliest memory of
the bicycle?
Michael Payne (06:22):
I was thinking about that the other day.
Certainly I have very earlymemories on a bicycle of
learning how to ride with myfather in my elementary school
parking lot which are sort ofwhat one would typically think
of in terms of the joy and thefreedom associated with rolling
(06:43):
away from his hand as he fallsbehind on the parking lot not
falling literally, but is leftbehind and that is certainly
favorable.
I also have memories of gettingon a tricycle which you didn't
ask me about when I was evenyounger and getting pushed off
of a patio onto a broken bottle.
(07:04):
But we're not going to go downthat route because that wasn't
as pleasant of a story.
Tom Butler (07:11):
Sounds like one of those memories you'd like to
forget, actually.
Michael Payne (07:14):
That's true, there is some risk associated
with these sort of earlyadventures, but overall I have
very fond early memories.
Tom Butler (07:22):
It seems like your interest in cycling has
persisted from early on in life.
What has kept you interested init?
Michael Payne (07:29):
You know, the main thing that really is, is,
has is, is.
Keeping me interested is abelief that the technology is
great and it's really underdeployed, given the capacity for
change that can happen inpeople's lives.
You know, I see it bringing joyand freedom to people still at
all ages of their lives.
(07:50):
I see it adding materially topeople's health and their quest
for longevity, and I see itbringing economic benefits and,
of course, on a society level,bringing great, you know,
environmental benefits as welland and I just you know I'm
motivated by the sort of thefundamentals that it brings to
(08:11):
people's lives now, if I'mcorrect, you got involved in
advocacy right out of college,is that right?
I did.
I was bike commuting in atlanta, living in town and commuting
out to Decatur and was, you know, finding that to be less than a
great experience and sort oflooking around to see what was
(08:32):
going on.
I somehow came in touch withwhat was called the Atlanta
Bicycle Coalition at that point.
It now was merged with walkinggroups and goes by the name
Propel, but I joined the boardat that stage as they were just
making the transition from beingan all-volunteer organization
to having their first paid staffand that sort of formally put
(08:54):
me in bicycle advocacy.
Tom Butler (08:57):
Is there something about that that matches your
personality?
I mean, it seems like you couldcomplain a lot, you know, as
you're riding around and not doanything.
But is there something abouthow you see the world that you
know that was important for youto to do something?
Michael Payne (09:15):
the other day, somebody said why did?
Why do people get involved inbicycle advocacy?
Or the question was asked in agroup, and, and and somebody
said it's usually has somethingto do with your mother, and and
uh, I thought that was a cleveranswer and I reflected on my own
mother, who was person wholeaned into challenges in life
(09:36):
and tended to engage and not shyaway from them, and I'm.
I have no doubt that sheinfluenced me in that way and
that's part of the reason why Ifelt like I should make time to
be involved in that andvolunteer with that group.
But how about a shout out toall the moms out there?
Tom Butler (09:53):
That's right.
Yay, moms.
Now you're a leader.
You've led diverseorganizations, from tech
startups to nonprofits, fromtech startups to nonprofits, and
I'm wondering, in that capacityof being a leader, what have
you learned about engagingpeople with advocacy efforts?
Michael Payne (10:19):
It's a good question, I think you know.
One of the things that I havelearned is that different people
are motivated by differentreasons.
Bicycle advocacy organizationsreally have to find out what
motivates their population andmake sure they're communicating
in a way that reaches thataudience.
Some people are motivated outof principle.
(10:39):
Other people have to go on ajourney before they really
embrace bicycle advocacy, andyou know so.
Bicycle organizations organizerides and bring people into the
community through recreation andthrough fun.
As a channel to reach people.
There's definitely an elementof understanding who you're
communicating with and makingsure that you're giving them
(11:00):
what they need and meeting themwhere they are and helping bring
what they need to their lives.
Tom Butler (11:04):
You and I met we're down in Olympia.
There was WA Bikes WashingtonBikes.
It was there advocating forbicycle legislation and funding
safe street legislation, and sowe got to hang out, and you know
, with other cyclists that wereadvocating for change or for
(11:30):
protecting funding.
I think cyclists are justreally fun people to be around.
I mean, maybe that's a bias Ihave, but it seems like there's
something you know about a groupof cyclists is really fun to
hang out.
Michael Payne (11:43):
I enjoy all aspects of it as well, and there
you know about a group ofcyclists is really fun to hang
out.
I enjoy all aspects of it aswell.
And there, you know, I thinkthere's something about people
who are engaging for somethingbetter as well which is sort of
inspirational and and uplifting,and I find that that's a great
thing to have in your life.
You know, you don't get thatout of all other aspects of life
necessarily, but puttingyourself in an environment where
(12:06):
people are working for positivechange is a positive thing, and
that certainly was true of thebicycle advocacy that I've been
involved in in the past, and Ithink it's just sort of
fundamental to the people whoare attracted to it.
Tom Butler (12:21):
One of the leadership roles you were in was
the first executive director ofBike Houston.
What led to the launch of BikeHouston?
Michael Payne (12:33):
Can you talk a little bit about that
organization?
A lot of times bicycle advocacyorganizations start as a few
people who ride getting togetherand saying, hey, let's get
organized and let's try andimprove conditions.
And they start meeting monthly,they start engaging with their
(12:54):
city council members or theirstate representatives talking
about problems, and they do iton a volunteer basis for some
period of time.
As momentum grows, as theirability to generate revenue
grows, they start to think, gee,you know, depending on the size
of the community and the citythat they're working in the
capacity to raise money iseasier or more difficult.
(13:16):
But they often get to a pointwhere they say, gee, there's a
lot of work to do here.
Let's take some of the moneythat we're raising and let's
hire a staff person tocoordinate this activity and to
run this organization.
And then it goes from being anall-volunteer team to having its
first employee and maybeopening an office somewhere and
increasing the level of activityengagement.
(13:37):
And that's really where BikeHouston was at that point.
It had existed as anorganization for many years.
It organized some rides, it hada bit of a budget, it had a
small group of sort of dedicatedvolunteers and members, but it
was wanting to make the nextstep and a friend of mine said,
hey, maybe you can help them.
(13:57):
I had some free time betweenjobs and he said look, you can
do a search for them and helpthem find the right person,
knowing that I'd been involvedin it in the past.
And I said I'd be happy to workon that and started meeting
with the board and the peopleand looking at the opportunity
and just decided that I wouldlike to be considered for that
(14:18):
opportunity and put my hat inthe ring and was able to take
that role on and do it for anumber of years and get an
office up and running, hire somestaff.
We wrote some grants, whichwere successful, fortunately,
and it was a very excitingproject to work on.
Needless to say, Nice.
Tom Butler (14:37):
Do you stay connected with that?
How would you say theconditions are in Houston for
cyclists these days?
Michael Payne (14:44):
I would say I stay in touch with the executive
director and several people onthe board and different members
as well, a couple times a yearand I still support the
organization, both financiallyas well as from a sort of an
ecosystem perspective, if youwill.
You know, I would say right nowit's tough, to be honest.
(15:05):
It's tough because, even thoughHouston has been a pretty
relatively forward-thinking cityas far as the urban area goes,
we have a mayor there now who isless convinced about the
benefits of cycling and who hasbeen pushing back and that's
quite a challenge for thecommunities there Talking about
(15:26):
removing infrastructure, bikelanes that have actually taken
years to be put in place andnobody's really asking for them
to be taken out.
But for some reason there is abit of a bike lash moment
happening in Houston, which yousee in other parts of the world
at times.
Tom Butler (15:43):
That's interesting and it's kind of interesting to
follow that to see what theprogression of that is like.
Michael Payne (15:50):
It is even in a place like Seattle and you know,
in Bellevue.
There are issues here locallyas well, which you know.
Things come up and peoplechange in elected offices.
They come in and they havedifferent priorities, and that's
something that the cyclingcommunity needs to remain on top
of and vigilant about.
Tom Butler (16:10):
Now you served on numerous boards, including Safe
Routes to School, and I'mwondering your perspective on
how important it is forlike-minded organizations to
collaborate on.
You know things like safestreets and public health and
well-being.
Michael Payne (16:27):
From my perspective, partnering is
fundamental to the success ofnonprofit organizations.
It is.
It's something that bringscredibility to the organization
in terms of the you know, whenstakeholders see them working
together, they see buy-in ondifferent shared objectives.
It's something that bringslearning as people talk about
(16:49):
the environment, what's going on, they share ideas.
It accelerates change.
It leverages the activitybasically to help achieve
outcomes faster, which is reallywhat it's all about.
Tom Butler (17:01):
Yeah, I like it.
Yeah, what it's all about.
Yeah, I like it.
Yeah, an organization that Ihave, for quite a while, been
curious about is the league ofAmerican bicyclists, and you're
a board member of the league.
Um, is it called the league forshort, or how do you guys refer
to it?
Michael Payne (17:19):
It is.
Some people call it the leaguefor short.
Yes, okay, sometimes thewebsite is bikeleagueorg, for
example.
So that's also.
You know.
The bike league sometimes isreferred to the league,
sometimes people.
The old name was, of course,the League of American Wheelmen.
Some people call it LAW or law,and that's sort of if you're
(17:41):
speaking with old timers youmight hear people say that as
well.
Tom Butler (17:45):
Yeah, Now I'm wondering, as a board member,
what excites you about theorganization?
Michael Payne (17:53):
I think fundamentally the most exciting
thing about the organization isthe potential to continue to
grow where we are today, giventhe opportunity in front of us
and when you think about what'shappening in North America we're
in the United Statesspecifically we're selling about
20 million bicycles a year.
(18:13):
Those bicycles are going to, youknow, everyone from age four up
to age whatever, 90, if youwill, but in our country there
are, you know, there are surveysdone on how much bicycles are
being ridden by the bicycleindustry, the people that
manufacture the bicycles, and weknow that there are about 110
(18:35):
million people a year who ride abike, you know, several times a
year and the last 12 monthshave been riding.
So for selling 20 million a year, you know you can easily say
there's there's probably 200million bicycles in our country
of 340 million people, but inthe last 12 months 100 plus have
(18:57):
been writing and a very smallnumber of those are actually
engaged in bicycle advocacy.
So from my perspective, there'sa very exciting opportunity to
communicate with people who ownbicycles but have never engaged
in advocacy either personally,in terms of volunteering, as you
were talking you've just beendoing how we met or who donate
(19:18):
any money to fund the staff whocould advocate on their behalf,
which is a great alternative forpeople who are too busy to
advocate or don't want to dothat because they would rather
go ride their bicycle orwhatever.
Right, I'm excited aboutgrowing those numbers.
Tom Butler (19:33):
When you say you're excited about it.
Do you think that there aresome you've figured out, or that
it's figured out, how toimprove that engagement, or is
there still a lot to uncoverabout how to get those people
engaged?
Michael Payne (19:49):
I wish I could say I've totally figured it out,
tom.
It'd be a slam dunk.
We're going to get everyone whoowns a bicycle to engage in
advocacy, because if we couldget 1% of people who own a
bicycle to engage in advocacy,that would be great.
We would have a very powerfulbicycle lobby in our country and
(20:09):
we would see change in asignificant way in terms of
infrastructure that allowspeople of all ages to cycle
around their cities, to get outof town into rural areas safely
and comfortably, without havingto stop and wait and cross
dangerous intersections and allthose sorts of things.
So I certainly don't thinkwe've figured it out.
(20:30):
My hope is that by peoplegetting engaged who want to see
change and who want to work onhow do we grow the pie of people
who donate a small amount ofmoney or a small amount of time
to advocacy, that we canaccelerate the process and that
can go faster and faster as wego forward.
Now I'm hopeful, but I don'tthink we've solved it yet and I
(20:55):
think at the end of the day, itboils down to fundamentally
understanding where people areand what they want out of their
future.
I mean, we know there are 115million people that have ridden
a bike in the last 12 months.
We know in the United States,if you look at charitable giving
as a sort of a researchcategory, that two-thirds of
(21:18):
Americans donate to charityevery year to charitable causes.
So if you take those numbersand put them together and you
say about two thirds of thepeople who ride bikes are
probably donating to charity,that's about 75 million people,
right, and we just need totarget that group of people and
ask those people to lean in abit on bicycle advocacy and
(21:41):
either support the league at anational level or support their
state or local level, or supporttheir state or local level or
support all three.
Quite frankly, you know, giving50 bucks a piece to each of
those three organizations, ifpeople could afford to do that,
would be a great contribution tochange.
Tom Butler (21:55):
You know, something that's popped in my head here as
you're talking is there's agroup of people that most likely
have bikes in their garages,that are lawmakers.
I'm wondering.
It seems like there's a view ofwhat the bicycle is.
Maybe that people don't thinkthat it needs to be protected.
Michael Payne (22:18):
Well, it's funny you should say that I met with
three of my representatives inOlympia earlier this week.
I met with three of myrepresentatives in Olympia
earlier this week and I askedthe two, who were positive about
bicycles, if they own bicyclesand they both said yes, they do,
and neither of them areactively using them.
I think they fall in thatcategory of maybe 100 million
(22:48):
bikes or so that are owned andout there that haven't been
ridden in the last 12 months, ormaybe, if they have, just
minimally.
But of course WA Bikes isoffering, and I'm offering, to
take those people for a ride andhelp them get to know their
community a little bit moreintimately and see it from the
top of a bicycle, and we hope todo that this spring as the
weather warms up.
But that's certainly a greatway to engage with your
representatives as you talk tothem about their own personal
(23:10):
experience.
Why don't you ride more often?
What prevents you from doingthat?
Why are you not comfortable?
Tom Butler (23:17):
was my way of navigating around that town.
There was never a thought in myfamily, you know, there wasn't
a fear of me jumping on my bikeat a young age and taking off,
you know, and it seems likegetting people to think about.
(23:38):
You know, do you feel it's safeto let your kid go out on the
road, you know, on their bike?
And I'm not even talking aboutalone, I'm talking about do you
feel it's safe riding on theroads with your nine-year-old
kid?
Right, you know, and just thatconcept.
(24:00):
It seems like a really such awholesome thing that people do,
and just that concept.
Do you see it safe?
Michael Payne (24:07):
Well, an interesting thing is when you
read about the history of ourcountry and the history of the
creation of the roads.
Of course, the first road userswere not cars, and you know,
road users were people, andhorses and horse drawn carriages
and wagons, if you will.
And it wasn't untilsignificantly later that cars
(24:32):
came to the road along withmotorcycles, and there became
this issue of sharing the roads.
And then we moved to.
No roads are dominated by carsand their motorcycles are out
there trying to survive, and afew bicyclists are trying to
survive using the roads as well.
And so this whole shift hastaken place whereby legally—
(24:54):
horses and people and bikes andeverybody still has a right to
the to use the roads, but theyou know, the reality is the
roads have been designed to movecars as fast as possible, not
to create a safe environment forall road users.
You know, that's somethingwe're now trying to correct yeah
(25:15):
, and really think about on adeep level.
Tom Butler (25:18):
You know and we were talking about this last episode
as well a book called FightingTraffic by Peter Norton.
You know it's just steppingback and philosophically, you
know, asking the question is dowe want to be so car centric, so
automobile centric in ourcountry?
It's a I think it's a fairquestion to ask.
Michael Payne (25:40):
You know, it's something that unfortunately we
live in a very large country andmany people it's very expensive
to leave the country.
Many people don't have theopportunity to look around and
live in other countries or visitother countries and see how
other things are happening.
I'm a big believer inbenchmarking and, wherever you
can, zooming out to a high leveland sortates.
(26:00):
Bicycling and walking is prettyamazing and it leads to a very
(26:30):
high quality of life wherepeople are very happy, they're
very healthy and they're ridingtheir bikes a lot.
Tom Butler (26:37):
The League of American Bicyclists has existed
since 1880.
You mentioned that it existedunder another name for a while.
It blows me away.
I mean that is a long time foran organization to be going.
I'm wondering if you have somethoughts about what contributes
to that longevity.
Michael Payne (26:58):
I guess what I would say is you have to stay
relevant, right.
You have to evolve as anorganization or as a company or
as a product in order to survivethe way our world works.
There's competition and we haveto raise our money every year to
pay the staff and to fund thewebsite and the activities and
(27:18):
the programs that are deliveredas benefits to our stakeholders.
So continuing to try and listenand understand where people are
and what they want isfundamental.
It's really important to us asan organization and if there are
listeners to this podcast whohave feedback they'd like to
(27:38):
share on the league over thelast year or two recent feedback
, I would love to take thatfeedback in and represent it to
the organization as a means oftrying to stay relevant and
trying to serve our stakeholdersand our constituents as best as
we can, just as a sort of anopen message.
You know, at the end of the day, you have to change what you're
(27:59):
offering and you have to listento what people want in order to
to survive and to grow.
And and you know, I think wecan do better as an organization
to be perfectly direct, and youknow I I hope we will do better
and we will grow more and bemore effective in in meeting
people's needs.
Tom Butler (28:15):
You mentioned to me that you feel that part of that
effectiveness is having a strongrelationship between the league
and local advocacy groups.
I'm wondering if there's somespecific strategies that you
think of in fostering thatcollaboration.
Michael Payne (28:33):
This is something that has happened.
It has existed for some time.
If you were starting a countryon a blank piece of paper and
you were saying, how am I goingto design an organization to
meet the needs of cyclistsacross the country?
And there was money coming outof a federal government that was
being distributed to stategovernments and county
(28:54):
governments, you could envisionone organization and county
governments.
You could envision oneorganization that operated at
all three levels at the nationallevel, state level and the
county, local level.
That's not the history ofbicycle advocacy in our country.
It's been a grassrootsevolution where organizations
grow up.
People tend to get involved inadvocacy, first on very, very
(29:16):
local issues, somethinghappening in their neighborhood,
on their street.
They care about that, so theyform groups, they get organized
and then they learn more aboutwhat's happening at a state
level and how it interrelatesand maybe they support that
organization also.
And then they sort of say, ohyeah, but where's all this money
coming from?
It's coming from the federalgovernment, or 80% of it's
coming from the federalgovernment.
So maybe I should support theLeague of American Bicyclists
(29:38):
also and help strengthen thatwhole pipeline.
To get more funds flowing youhave to believe in the system.
It's further removed, it takeslonger, more time than working
on a street in your ownneighborhood, but that actually
is the journey that many peoplego down as they discover
advocacy on a broader level.
So, you know, creating aculture of collaboration and
(30:02):
cooperation between the localgroups and the state and
national groups is veryimportant.
And trust, quite frankly andyou know there's a great saying
that change happens at the speedof trust.
And as you build trust betweenthe organizations, change
happens faster because they'recollaborating more, they're
cooperating more and not seeingeach other as a competitor.
(30:24):
For you know, a $50 membershipdonation that maybe a cyclist
isn't going to give to twoorganizations, so they don't
want to miss out on that.
And I think we have to getbeyond the fear of competition
and work together as advocatesto build one giant tent and pull
all the cyclists into it.
Tom Butler (30:43):
The league is in Washington DC.
That means that I have peoplein Washington DC that are
passionate about cycling, likeI'm passionate about cycling.
Do you think that that makes adifference?
Just being there?
Michael Payne (30:57):
I think it's very important that they are there
so that they can meet withstaffers, they can meet with
congressmen, senators, wherepossible, to help shape the
agenda and to engage indiscussions and be at the table,
have a seat at the table.
I do think that it's importantfor the league to be out in the
field as well and to get aroundthe country and to talk to
(31:18):
people, let people know who theyare and what they're doing and,
you know, to be guest speakersat state organizations or city
organizations and to show uponce a year and tell the story
of what's happening and thatthat is that's very important
and I think, quite frankly,there's a big role to be played
by an organization like theleague in terms of sharing best
practices and having an overviewof what's happening all around
(31:41):
the country and saying look,okay, you guys are.
You now have three paid staffand you're trying to get to six
paid staff in the next two years.
How are you going to raise themoney to fund that activity and
that expansion?
Here's how your revenues arebreaking down.
Now you should think aboutdoing X, y and Z to grow your
revenues and strengthen yourteam, given where you are on the
(32:04):
sort of journey as an advocacyorganization, and you know we
are doing that and we need to domore of it and we need to do it
faster.
Tom Butler (32:15):
There's a few organizations out there that are
interested in activetransportation, and I'm a huge
fan of that because I think it'sa vital element of being more
healthy as a nation, of gettingout and walking or riding or
(32:37):
skateboarding or whatever youknow, and being active is just
so vital.
And I think about Rails toTrails and you know this is the
Great American Rail Trail islike one of those projects that
are weaving together regionafter region after region across
the US, region after regionafter region across the US.
(32:59):
And when you talk aboutcollaboration, it seems like
there's a moment now where someof these cycling highways and
other projects are almostdemanding a collaborative
approach.
I'm wondering, as you look atthat, is that something that
helps you be optimistic aboutthe future?
(33:19):
What are your thoughts there?
Michael Payne (33:21):
In general, I am optimistic In general.
I think that people are havingfun riding their bikes, they're
enjoying getting out there,they're seeing progress with
respect to high comfort, lowstress, places to ride.
That is happening slowly,little by little, in a lot of
communities around our country.
(33:41):
It's not happening everywhere.
I mean I say that sitting inWashington state, which is
ranked number one out of all 50states, right so?
And I can also tell you there'sa lot more to be done here in
the Seattle and the Washingtonarea and you could go riding
here and you compare it toriding around you know, some
sort of third tier city in ruralNetherlands and it's, it's a
(34:03):
lot more comfortable to ridethere than it is here in our
number one, you know mostdeveloped bicycle state, and and
so you know we have a lot ofwork to do.
But but I do think we're makingprogress.
I think people are experiencingit.
I think people are seeing it.
They're seeing it on television, they're understanding it and
they know that it's possible.
(34:25):
So I think the real key is tolean in and to unite, because as
long as we just sort of remainfragmented as individuals not a
member of our local advocacygroup, not a member of our state
or not a member of our federal.
We're not a member of our stateor not a member of our federal.
We're actually not even beingcounted.
We're not having an impact,we're not moving the needle, and
that's right where you know thecar the anti-bike people want
(34:51):
us to be, you know, and mostpeople who ride bicycles drive
cars also, and they, you know,and they see the benefit of it.
So I'm not saying I'm anti-carI certainly am not.
I enjoy driving my car verymuch, but I do think it's
important to unite as cyclistsin order to get the
representation that we deserve.
Tom Butler (35:11):
Now you've mentioned other countries a couple times
and you had an opportunity tolive in another country and in
other regions and visit otherregions a lot.
Michael Payne (35:31):
I wonder if you could talk about that
opportunity and also talk abouthow that molded your perspective
.
Yeah, I was interested inbicycle advocacy before I had
the opportunity to live abroadon a longer term basis.
I studied abroad some, but Iwas able to live and work in the
Netherlands.
I've also lived in France for ayear, I've lived in the UK for
a year, I've lived in Panama andI've lived in Chile.
(35:52):
There's no one way to live onthis planet and there's no one
right answer.
But I can tell you, when youdesign your city around people
rather than around cars, itmakes it a very pleasant place
to live.
As a person who is outside oftheir car at times and they've
been able to do that in theNetherlands and they you know
(36:14):
they put money into sidewalks.
You know I've lived in placeslike Houston which actually
don't have sidewalks in a lot ofplaces.
There's the road and thenthere's people's yards in
certain areas and that's quitechallenging and distracting.
As a young parent pushing ababy carriage down the road, you
know, worrying about cars goingby.
The attention to detail that'sput into the infrastructure and
(36:37):
the built environment in theNetherlands makes it a very safe
place to walk and to bike andit makes it very pleasant.
You don't hesitate to jump onyour bike to run errands or to
send your kids to school ontheir own from quite a young age
and, as a result of that,people are riding throughout
their entire lives.
You know, the type 2 diabetesis much, much lower, the heart
(37:01):
disease is much, much lower, therates of obesity are much lower
, and that has everything to dowith creating a built
environment where people feelcomfortable getting out and
moving around.
Tom Butler (37:14):
I had a conversation with Tom Babin a while ago on
the podcast.
I had a conversation with TomBabin a while ago on the podcast
(37:41):
and I think he made anobservation that you know you
can judge the health of thecycling infrastructure more by
someone dressed to go to themarket on their bike, rather
than you know someone who's outfor fitness activities.
You know, like me, I'm willingto brave the roads a little bit,
but but you kind of you know, Ithink culturally you see people
dress differently in theNetherlands and you know their
bikes are a little bit different.
Michael Payne (37:53):
Absolutely.
Now, people are.
People are comfortable cyclingand whatever clothes they're
comfortable wearing, and theirbikes are designed to protect
their clothing, with fenders andmud flaps and chain guards and
with a nice upright geometrywhich makes them very
comfortable for riding around.
Now, obviously, they don't havethe hills to climb in the same
(38:21):
way that we do in some parts ofour country, but they also do
face their own set of challengesin terms of wind and rain and
so forth.
Tom Butler (38:26):
Now you have an entrepreneurial mindset.
I believe that is a fair thingto say.
Looking at your history, I'mwondering if that influences the
way that you think aboutbicycle advocacy.
Michael Payne (38:50):
I'm sure if that influences the way that you
think about bicycle advocacy tothe organizations I'm involved
with keep a focus on where weget the right outcomes for our
effort and our energy that we'reputting into keeping our
organizations alive and relevant.
You know, for another hundredyears if you will.
And you know it's a combinationof thinking about what are the
(39:11):
outcomes that we need to achieveand how are we going to get
them.
And you know I'm a big believerin the skills and the tools
that you are applied inentrepreneurial settings or that
you may learn in businessschool and applying those to
nonprofits and to government andto other all the ports of
organizations where you know.
(39:31):
From my point of view, thinkingabout marketing strategy is
equally as important to abicycle advocacy organization
that it is to as it is to afast-moving consumer bike
infrastructure pitch meeting oflike let's get really innovative
.
Tom Butler (40:09):
Let's just really think out of the box, who can
come up with some, you know,like really cool new ideas?
It seems like that's kind ofthat energy of
entrepreneurialism that could beinfused.
Michael Payne (40:23):
I like it and, coincidentally so, my youngest
child is a junior in high schooland his school organizes these
entrepreneurship competitionsand invites kids from other
schools to come and participatein them.
Right, and I was a judge a fewmonths ago in one of the
(40:44):
competitions and I've beenworking with the staff on
organizing the next competitionand we're trying to do social
entrepreneurship as far as thisnext round goes and have the
kids work on some socialentrepreneurship challenges as
part of it, and I've pitchedbicycle advocacy as one of the
challenges that I would likethem to put to the kids and see
(41:08):
how the kids approach it.
Right, but I like your idea oforganizing a whole full blown
innovation, bring you knowcompetition, if you will, for
the Seattle community to bringpeople together and I'm going to
talk to Lee about how we can dothat and mix it with some beer
and make it into something fun,you know.
Tom Butler (41:30):
I like it.
I'll be there, for sure, yeahit.
Michael Payne (41:33):
it's, it's a really good idea.
I think it's the kind of thingthat people would show up for
and they'd be excited to comeand brainstorm on and, quite
frankly, probably generate a lotof good ideas as well.
Tom Butler (41:47):
So if you were going to think about, like, the
current state of cyclinginfrastructure, are there some
specific things that you wouldput at the top of a list of
change items?
Michael Payne (42:00):
That's a big question when I think about the
challenge of changing our builtenvironment.
If you assume for a moment thatwe have or environment in an
(42:21):
area is, somebody does a plan, abicycle master plan that is
then shared with the people inall different parts of the
communities, and you prioritizeyour improvements and you start
rolling out your improvements inthe infrastructure as you redo
(42:42):
the roads, because that's themost cost-effective time to make
those changes and roads don'tget redone every day.
So over a long period of timewhen you have the budget, you
start with your highestpriorities, your most dangerous
areas, your backbone connectingpieces.
You know that link thingstogether and you begin
(43:03):
implementing those gradually.
So you know, one of thefrustrating things about this
space is that it takes a longtime, even when things are going
well, to see progress and tosee change and it's just slow,
long work because you don'talways have a bicycle master
(43:25):
plan to start off with and youdon't always have a political
environment that's supportive ofcycling.
A lot of times you have peoplethat are fighting you and
opponents and you have to workto demonstrate the need and the
interest and convince people.
Well, we should be spending anymoney at all on making these
improvements, as opposed to justpicking up the bodies and
getting them throwing them inthe van if people get injured or
(43:47):
killed.
Getting them throwing them inthe van if people get injured or
killed.
So you know, I guess I don'thave one specific sort of type
of bike path necessarily.
I mean I do.
I'm a big believer in planningand letting the planners do
their work and figure out wherepeople are trying to move,
what's a safe and cost-effectiveway to accommodate them and
(44:11):
where can we get early wins onthe grid in the network that
allow people to actually goplaces they want to go and not
get stuck hanging in reallydangerous areas that are
confusing and not pleasant toexperience.
So building out the network issuper important, not pleasant to
experience.
So you know, building out thenetwork is super important.
(44:31):
You know looking for ways to doit as quickly as possible.
You know, if I could changethings, you know it would be
more top-down push of money onbuilding complete streets and
integrating bicycle-friendlyinfrastructure without debate
wherever it can be done, as fastas possible.
But, you know, starting withbig arteries that allow people
(44:54):
to move across the trickierparts, busier roads, bridges and
things like that that are pinchpoints.
Tom Butler (45:03):
I like that.
You know, and I think thatobservation is so valuable that
streets aren't something thatchange every day.
It has to be part of planningin order for years, planning
years ahead in order to reallybe efficient with the process.
Michael Payne (45:23):
Yeah, and there is a limited amount of money.
And one of the things thatmakes the United States
difficult compared to Europe isdensity, and in the Netherlands
in particular, it is a denselypopulated area.
A third, I think a full thirdof the country lives in some
sort of government-supportedhousing, which tend to be
(45:44):
apartment buildings, relativelydense apartment buildings,
apartment buildings, relativelydense apartment buildings.
And that's very cost efficient.
But it's also very planningefficient in terms of bicycle
infrastructure and creatingvillages and towns where people
can get to what they need ontheir bicycle, they can get to a
train station, they can move toa different part of the country
.
And we, you know the scale andsize of our country.
(46:07):
Not only is it 20 times biggerin terms of population, you know
, it's probably I don't know,I'm just going to guess 150
times bigger in terms oflandmass, and probably a
thousand times, for that matter,who knows?
It's huge, it's huge and thedistances are vast.
Tom Butler (46:26):
So it's a different set of challenges distances are
vast, so it's a different set ofchallenges.
Yeah, Do you think publictransportation is vital to as
far as cycling access?
Do you see that in theNetherlands that the public
transportation is essential linkin cycling around?
Michael Payne (46:41):
I do, and and the reason I say that is you know,
the Netherlands is a country ofabout 18 million people and the
largest metropolitan areasreally are about a million
inhabitants.
So Amsterdam, the Hague,rotterdam are the three largest
cities, and those economies arebuilt on a model whereby people
(47:06):
will live in other villages andcommuter suburbs.
If you will commuter villagesfurther away and the train
system is actively used there,they will bike to the train
station, jump on a train intothe town where they have a job,
work there, either walking orgrabbing another bike.
And if you go to the trainstations now and they have
(47:29):
massive, public,state-of-the-art bicycle parking
garages underneath the trainstations and they're spotless,
they're painted, they'rebeautiful, and there are videos
on YouTube.
If you Google, you know Utrechttrain station or the Hague train
station, you can see them andthey're extremely impressive.
(47:49):
But people have another bikethere that they'll jump on and
then they'll ride to theiroffice and that's the way they
structure their lives, so thatthey can move around quickly and
easily.
And it's you know.
They also have loaner bikes atthe train stations, where you
buy your train ticket and youget a loaner bike.
And if you don't, you know ifyou're going to a town where you
don't, and if you're going to atown where you don't go very
often, you manage it that way.
Tom Butler (48:10):
It's a lot of pieces to it, and so we do have a ways
to go.
Michael Payne (48:16):
And we have a different model.
We have a country that hasgrown up after the invention of
the automobile, which is reallynot the way the Netherlands grew
up.
Tom Butler (48:28):
I want to shift gears here.
Talk a little bit about howcycling has enriched your life
personally.
Michael Payne (48:33):
Like many people, I have enjoyed various aspects
of cycling in different ways atdifferent times.
I enjoyed the adventure andexploration as a child, riding
around the neighborhood.
I enjoyed riding around campus,university.
I enjoyed mountain bike racing,you know, as a young man, in
(48:54):
early years and in the earlydays, of mountain biking.
And I've also enjoyed, you know, group rides and participating
in slow rides and going out in acritical mass ride and seeing
different cities through thelens of critical mass and doing
large, organized rides as well.
And you know I do a triathlononce a year just for fun, a
(49:18):
small one, and enjoy that sortof personal challenge of seeing
how my body is holding up overtime, doing the same ride every
year.
And I think most importantlythrough all that is the
companions that you ride withand the people that you get to
know and the fact that you canhave conversations while you
ride and you talk.
(49:39):
And you know I love the I livedin Houston for a period of time
and hearing people talk abouthow cycling was becoming, you
know, the new golf from abusiness perspective, because
people could have meaningfulconversations outside of sort of
the structure of the office andtalk about problems and get to
know one another and decide towork together.
(50:00):
And you know, they make thingshappen.
Tom Butler (50:03):
Change happens that way, you know there is an
element of that that's reallyinteresting to me.
Secondly, being new golf,because you know, one thing that
I found was you know whenyou're getting busy.
You know when you get thatpoint in your life and your
career where you're getting busyand you're trying to grow your
(50:25):
career and you're trying to showyour value to a company.
You know, I found that time tobe very difficult because no one
prioritized being active.
It was like if you're sittingin front of your computer or
going to meetings in a in arestaurant, meeting people in
(50:47):
restaurants and attendingmeetings and all of that like
that was stuff that wasrewarding.
There wasn't like an inherentreward in being active.
Michael Payne (51:00):
Yeah, no, it is a problem with our species in our
country.
I mean, our species was notdesigned to sit at a desk all
day.
It was designed to walk arounddoing stuff outdoors.
And we have entered this phasein the last couple hundred years
where we kind of sit on ourrear ends, and it's not good.
Tom Butler (51:19):
How did you navigate that.
Michael Payne (51:21):
Well, I certainly experienced what you're
describing.
You know, on a professionallevel, finding times where you
know, particularly as a youngparent with young children at
home, where you're working andstruggling, you know, to get
everything delivered and meetthe objectives from a company
perspective but then alsorushing to your role as a father
(51:44):
with limited time.
You know for exercise and youknow certainly the one good
thing I can say is part of thattime I was bicycle commuting,
you know, to the office in theNetherlands, which helped a lot,
and part of the time I was, youknow, cycling in Atlanta or in
Houston or other places.
But I think you know.
(52:06):
Looking back as an older personnow, I guess I would certainly
say when I speak to peopleyounger in their careers, I make
an effort to emphasize thatthey're not invincible, that
their health actually should bea priority and that if they burn
it too hard it's going to getthem People.
Many people run intohealth-related challenges which
(52:28):
are tied to not getting enoughrest, not getting enough
exercise and having too muchstress.
Tom Butler (52:34):
One of the messages I think of cycling over 60 is
that if you're in your 50s, late50s, early 60s even, but if
you're in your mid-50s and yourlife has been that thing where
parenting and career andeverything has kept you from
being active, it's not too late.
You know it's like get on abike now.
(52:57):
You know, maybe your kids areout of the house now you have a
little bit differentresponsibility there.
Engage your kids.
I've been so fortunate that myadult kids are, you know,
joining me on cycling adventures.
You'll benefit immensely.
I mean, I'm just an example ofsomeone who's benefited
immensely by by getting outthere and doing it.
Michael Payne (53:21):
I think it's great advice.
It's definitely not too late.
You know, I'm as I mentioned toyou.
I'm cycling with people 25years older than I am who are
doing great and it'sinspirational.
So what?
Tom Butler (53:37):
are your thoughts about that?
Do you have every intention tokeep cycling later on in life?
Michael Payne (53:42):
I do, I do.
I feel like there are a coupleof things that have struck me in
my life that I look forward tocontinuing doing.
You know, hiking is one,cycling is one, swimming and sea
kayaking, quite frankly, isanother sort of rhythmic
activity which you know fromearly in my life, and I started
off as a whitewater paddler andat a certain point I'm like I
(54:06):
don't need this risk of killingmyself quite anymore, as much
anymore as I did when I started,for some reason.
So I shifted over more to seakayaking and it's another great
sort of rhythmic outdooractivity that I think lends
itself well to longevity.
Tom Butler (54:24):
Yeah, and we live in a place that's amazing.
So, yeah, you told me you spentsome time on the Olympic
Discovery Trail last summer andI'm wondering if you could talk
about that a bit, because Ithink that is such a unique
resource out there for cycling.
Michael Payne (54:39):
Sure, well, you know you're asking about how
cycling has impacted my life andone of the ways.
One of my longtime cyclingbuddies gets a group of guys
together once a year and we dosome riding somewhere in
different locations, we do somehiking and just catch up and
have fun.
I've been doing that for over10 years and it's such a fun
activity that I've sort ofdecided to start my own version
(55:01):
of that by putting together aride once a year.
Last year I had a couple ofbuddies guys and girls come into
town and join me for riding thesection of the Olympic
discovery trail out to uh LaPush Rialto beach, both, and you
know and and checked out theWest coast of the peninsula and
(55:22):
then cycle back and camped alongthe way, staying in the
(55:42):
campgrounds and uh, carrying allour our own gear.
And that was my first bikepacking trip like that.
Uh, it was a lot of fun.
Looking forward to doing moreof them.
Tom Butler (55:50):
It was a lot of fun.
Looking forward to doing moreof them.
Michael Payne (55:53):
How did you find the trail?
Was it what you expected?
Well, the way I describe it is.
It ranged from sublime tosuicidal.
Unfortunately, there's stillsome gaps, tom, that need to be
fixed in a few places there, butmuch of it is amazing.
Much of it is on an old railwaywith a very moderate, you know,
one to two percent grade, goingthrough beautiful forests along
(56:14):
the banks of Lake Crescent andparts of it were gravel and
through the woods and a lot ofit's amazing onto the highway,
you know, where there arelogging trucks and cars going 60
miles an hour and every now andthen and not much shoulder, and
every now and then the roadnarrows to a bridge where
(56:36):
there's no shoulder.
And if you happen to be on thebridge and there's two cars
coming both directions, going atfull speed, then that's a
that's a real unpleasantsituation to be in.
Overall, it was great and Iwould recommend it, but you know
the looking forward to themfiguring out those gaps and
hopefully they get the supportthey need from the local
(56:59):
advocate advocacy community.
Tom Butler (57:01):
Right, it's one of those projects I think to really
follow, cause it's it's such aunique environment, you know,
and you're going through areasthat are like in the rain shadow
and areas that are rainforests,and it's an incredible resource
.
Michael Payne (57:18):
You know, I would encourage people to go to the
website and to check it out.
The Olympic Discovery Trail Ithink it's org actually, you
know is a group of hardworkingpeople and I think they've been
working on it for over 30 yearsnow in terms of putting pieces
together and linking it alltogether, in terms of testament
to people's patience andpersistence and the financial
contributions to support from awide range of people.
(57:42):
It's a great example of howthings happen, little by little,
thanks to the hard work of adedicated group.
Tom Butler (57:50):
Well, I'll put a link to the website there in the
show notes.
Michael, I appreciate so much.
You know it was really shortnotice having you come on and
thanks so much for taking thetime to do this.
And I just have really enjoyedthis discussion and I enjoy
working with you more in thearea and seeing you more at
(58:13):
different advocacy events.
Michael Payne (58:16):
Thank you, tom.
It's been great fun and I'mglad we met and look forward to
going for a ride sometime soon.
And thanks for creating aplatform for talking about
advocacy in general, but alsoabout the Cascade Bicycle Club
and the League of AmericanBicyclists.
Those are two organizationswhich I would encourage people
to look more into, or your ownlocal organization, wherever you
(58:38):
may be in the world, and thereare advocacy organizations in
all different parts of the world, and if there's not, maybe you
should think about starting onefor those who out there find
themselves in that situation.
Tom Butler (58:49):
Yeah, awesome advice .
All right, talk to you laternow.
Michael Payne (58:52):
Thank you very much.
Tom Butler (59:01):
It's hard to imagine someone listening to this
podcast who isn't already a fanof cycling.
So I know that I'm speaking tothe choir when I'm talking about
bicycle advocacy here.
But talking to Michael causedme to ask the question of myself
am I doing enough?
Michael's observation of thenumber of bikes sold versus the
number of people who areadvocating for bike safety it
really hit me.
He shared that 20 millionbicycles are sold in a year and
(59:25):
110 million people ride a bikeyearly.
What would happen if we somehowengaged those people to take
action?
Let's say we only engage 10%Seems like it would be really
significant if that number ofpeople were all sharing the same
message.
I really like the idea of havingthe League of American
Bicyclists as a sort of meetingpoint for cycling advocates
across the nation.
(59:46):
An individual membership to theleague is only $50, and there
is a senior level for just $35.
That seems reasonable and Ifeel like I should try to get
more involved with them.
So I will keep you posted onwhat I learn about the
organization along the way.
I encourage all of you to findsome way to get involved in
advocacy.
Of course, the first action isto get out there and ride.
(01:00:06):
I hope that all of you arefinding a lot of opportunities
to just experience the joy ofcycling.
I think people seeing us havingfun on a bike is an extremely
positive message.
So do something great forcycling by getting out and just
having a blast.
And remember age is just a gearchange.
Thank you.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.