June 8, 2025 • 59 mins
Host Tom Butler talks about preparation to revisit one of his earliest long-distance cycling adventures. In this episode, He shares some differences that will make this trip a better effort. Tom also unveils the training strategies he's currently testing in preparation for this year's Seattle to Portland ride. In the second part of the episode, experienced cyclist Max Rosenberg joins the show to discuss one of bikepacking's demanding challenges: the Baja Divide. Max brings loads of adventure cycling experience to share essential survival strategies for this 1,700-mile route through Baja California's wilderness. Max provides the insider knowledge that could make the difference between success and failure on this epic journey. This episode combines the wisdom of experience with practical preparation strategies, making it essential listening for cyclists ready to push their boundaries and tackle their next big adventure.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tom Butler (00:04):
This is the Cycling Over 60 podcast, season three,
episode 32, biking the BajaDivide.
And I'm your host, tom Butler.
I will be doing a 60 mile rideon the Centennial Trail this
(00:26):
weekend, starting in Snohomish,washington.
The last time I did this routewas on my 60th birthday.
There were a lot of differences.
For that first trip, I was on afitness bike instead of the
road bike I will ride this time.
I expect this change to make asignificant difference.
I'd only been riding a fewmonths at the point when I rode
the trail the first time.
(00:47):
I know a heck of a lot moreabout how my body handles riding
longer distances.
Now.
We did an 11 mile per houraverage on that ride.
I think I'll do better thisweekend.
Last time it was pretty coldand we hit a stretch where we
had to ride through some freshsnow.
This time, I think the weatheris going to be excellent.
It is possible that it will bea bit on the warm side, but I
(01:08):
believe there is going to beplenty of shade and we will be
enjoying the warmth.
Even with all the advantagesthat I'll have this time over
Lass, this will be the longestride I've done in a while, so
I'm not 100% sure I will do okay.
Last time my knee bursitisflared up for the first time and
it was at about 50 miles, andafterwards I had a good amount
(01:29):
of cramping.
I will be very disappointed ifI get a repeat of either of
those problems.
We're doing the ride a coupleweeks before Kelly turns 60, so
we're starting a tradition ofdoing that ride around turning
60.
It'll be really fun if we canfind others who want to do this
in the future.
The Centennial Trail isn't ahuge challenge because the trail
(01:49):
is quite flat.
There is 1,200 feet ofelevation gain over the whole
trail and it's a rails-to-trailsproject, so the climbs aren't
steep.
One objective of this ride isto test a new feeding strategy
for Seattle to Portland.
I want to stress here that I'mnot telling you what to do.
In fact, there are some thingsgoing on with my metabolism that
make it better that you don'tdo what I'm doing.
(02:11):
I've decided to use dates as aprimary source of carbohydrates
on long rides.
My plan is to keep a steadyintake of carbohydrates by
having a few dates every halfhour.
I'm intrigued by dates for anumber of reasons.
Of course, they are a naturalsource of carbohydrates.
The fiber content means thatthe sugar from dates is more
slowly absorbed, so that canprevent a sugar crash that comes
(02:34):
from more processed options.
Dates are rich in potassium andmagnesium, so they help provide
electrolytes, and also datesare rich in polyphenols and
antioxidants, which can reduceoxidative stress in the body.
And an added bonus is thatdates are a source of a little
allulose, and the more I learnabout allulose, the more
(02:55):
intrigued I am with it.
Here is how I came up with mycurrent plan for what to eat
when cycling.
I kind of arbitrarily picked600 calories an hour that I
expect to burn.
Actually, I think it could beanywhere from 500 to 700
calories an hour Over the day.
I'm thinking I will burn around3,600 calories riding and other
caloric output.
I'll have a good breakfast anda good lunch halfway through the
(03:18):
ride, so I think I need to takein about 1,200 calories while
riding.
I'll have one protein barbetween breakfast and lunch and
one between lunch and the end ofthe ride.
The bars are Think brand andare sugar-free.
That means they aren't a quicksource of carbohydrates.
The bars are 230 calories each,so that brings my caloric
(03:38):
deficit down to 640.
When I looked it up, it appearsthat dates are worth 25
calories apiece depending on thetype of date.
So I figure 26 dates over theday will do it.
So that would be like 2-3 datesevery half hour.
I am comfortable with taking inthat many dates.
I think I've been eating enoughdates recently that it won't be
(03:59):
a problem for my intestinaltract, but if I'm wrong about
that, it's not going to be ideal.
Another thing that I will teston the ride is a new electrolyte
strategy.
A couple of weeks ago I talkedabout using a homemade
electrolyte mixture.
I've decided not to rely onthat for longer rides until I've
had more experience with it.
As a reminder, I'm just sharingwhat I'm doing, but it is an
(04:20):
advice for what you should doand there might be reasons why
you shouldn't do what I'm doing.
As an advice for what youshould do and there might be
reasons why you shouldn't dowhat I'm doing, I'm going to use
the Electrolyte brand liquid IV, but do some modifications to
it.
First off, it has no magnesium.
The daily magnesiumrecommendation when active is
500 milligrams for men.
I would really like to naildown just how much magnesium I
(04:42):
really need, but for now it'sstill based on some assumptions.
There doesn't seem to be muchrisk of taking too much
magnesium because it is easy forthe kidneys to get rid of
excess.
I've decided to take in 100milligrams of magnesium an hour,
so that will have to be addedin to the liquid IV.
A packet of liquid IV has 350milligrams of sodium.
(05:02):
However, I think I'm sweatingout closer to 2,000 milligrams
per hour.
I sweat more than most peopleand I drink a lot of water when
I'm done on a hot day.
My skin is very salty and thereare salt deposits where drops
of sweat have landed on the bike.
The Himalayan salt we use has520 milligrams of sodium in a
(05:23):
quarter of a teaspoon, has 520milligrams of sodium in a
quarter of a teaspoon, so I willadd a quarter teaspoon to what
is in the liquid IV packet.
I picked up some really smallZiploc bags that work well for
electrolyte powder, so I willuse those.
Overall, my main objective istake in enough electrolytes so
that I don't cramp, and I'll bereally excited if, after the
(05:45):
ride is over, I have no crampingwhatsoever.
Another big goal for the ride isto see if Kelly's battery can
last 60 miles.
I think that a metric centuryis likely the longest we will
ride in a day and I do think herbattery can last like 62, 63
miles of what a metric centuryis, but we need to verify that.
(06:06):
We have done 50 miles a fewtimes and it seems like she's
had plenty battery left.
It will help that this route isflat.
She doesn't need muchassistance at all if she's on
the flat and especially ifthere's a little bit of a
downhill.
While her bike has regenerativebraking, I don't think it will
come into play much on this trip.
It'll be interesting to see ifshe gets much braking generation
(06:29):
at all.
I'm very confident that she'llmake it to 50 miles and after
that the remaining 10 miles ismostly downhill, so even if the
battery is out, she can mostlikely make it back to the car.
There's just so many things tobe excited about this trip and I
can't wait to get rolling.
Another thing I'll share is Igot bad news recently that the
(06:50):
construction has been delayed onthe bridge that is out on the
foothills trail.
That means I will not have asafe route down to the valley
until this fall and thatpotentially impacts my plan for
the first cycling over 60 ridethat is scheduled for September
14th.
I'm going to move forward,believing that the route will be
(07:10):
open by the 14th of September,but I might have to pivot if it
doesn't look good by the end ofAugust.
I've interviewed a few peoplelately about their adventures
riding on multi-day trips, andthis episode is also about a
(07:32):
bike trip, but this is a bitdifferent because it's an
off-road trip.
Max Rosenberg joined me to talkabout his ride on the Baja
Divide, a 1,730-mile backpackingroute that connects the Pacific
Ocean and the Sea of Cortez.
I'm always thinking aboutgetting to the place where I can
do more off-road discovery.
However, I think the BajaDivide is definitely a bit
(07:55):
outside my abilities.
Here's our conversation.
I'm here once again to talkabout a cycling adventure.
Thanks, max Rosenberg, forjoining me and sharing your
experience.
You're welcome.
I have a strong feeling thatyou're going to be talking about
something that will becomeanother ride to add to my list
of rides that I want to dosomeday.
(08:16):
But let's first start here.
What is your earliest memory ofthe bicycle?
Max Rosenberg (08:21):
Oh, my earliest memory is when I was probably
four or five, learning how toride a bike.
We lived on a little bit of ahill and I remember I had
training wheels.
When I finally did learn how tobalance, I remember just riding
around the neighborhood andfeeling like I was flying.
Tom Butler (08:42):
You know, I think that's the wonderful memory, you
know, of that freedom of likethe expanded world that you get
when you can get on a bike, andI love that.
Max Rosenberg (08:54):
Yeah, yeah, definitely I.
Just I remember that it waslike whoa, this is cool.
Tom Butler (09:00):
Now did you keep cycling as you grew older?
How did your relationship withcycling change as you got older?
Max Rosenberg (09:09):
Right, I rode my bike a lot for transportation
throughout my childhood.
I used it for a paper route todeliver papers.
In high school I had somefriends that were starting to do
longer distance cycling.
I grew up in the Bay Area ofCalifornia and so we did some
longer rides up on SkylineBoulevard, but I never was like
(09:34):
into racing or too serious, itwas mostly just transportation.
Then I went to UC Davis as anundergrad and that is a real
bicycle town Really.
You know everybody rides theirbike there.
So I've always it's always beenpart of my life as
transportation, but not reallywhat I say.
I became a cyclist until my45th birthday when I split my
(10:01):
meniscus running.
Tom Butler (10:03):
Oh, okay.
Max Rosenberg (10:04):
Yeah, after two years of physical therapy it
wasn't getting any better, sothey didn't know it was split
when they did an MRI.
Finally I went and had surgeryand I remember, during the
operation, the doctor, goes.
Oh well, yeah, you've got ameniscus tear and and oh, that's
almost down to the bone.
I go.
What do you mean?
Down to the bone?
Well, well, you know yourcartilage is worn.
(10:25):
I think you should stop runningand take up the bicycle.
That's what the surgeon, duringthe operation to fix my torn
meniscus said, and that's what Idid.
So I quit running and startedcycling for exercise.
Tom Butler (10:42):
Did you feel like you were missing something by
not running, or did you findwhat you were experiencing, the
enjoyment you had of running,that the bike provided that?
Max Rosenberg (10:53):
You know I can say that I missed running a lot
and it took me a while toreplace that feeling with the
bike, because I was a prettyserious runner and I like to run
out in the woods and everythingand go on.
You know trips go to WashingtonDC and run around and look at
all the memorials in the earlymorning and it was easy, you
(11:16):
know, to run wherever you wentbecause all you needed were
running shoes.
You didn't need a bike.
But once I accepted the factthat I wasn't going to be a
runner anymore, I got intocycling and I've never looked
back.
Tom Butler (11:29):
I've really enjoyed it what we are talking about
today is a trip you did on thebaja divide.
First off, can you talk aboutthat ride?
How did you hear about it?
What kind of attracted you tothat ride?
Max Rosenberg (11:47):
I've been a cycle tourist for quite a while.
I'll kind of give you a briefbackground on my touring history
.
I started touring when I wasstill working and there were a
group of fellows where I workedand we would go on what we
called the shakedown ride everyyear.
Usually it was a three or fourday tour around Oregon and we
(12:09):
cycled all over Oregon and partof Washington and Northern
California.
Then, when I retired, the firstthing I really wanted to do was
ride down the Pacific coast.
So I did that and justabsolutely loved it.
The feeling of freedom, youknow, just having everything you
need and nothing you don't allon your bicycle.
(12:30):
It's just an incredible feelingof freedom in two parts In 2017
, the western half, and then2019, the eastern half.
Then COVID hit.
During COVID, I was invited todo what's called a bikepacking
(12:54):
trip.
It's kind of like bike touring,but it's, they say, off-road,
on dirt or gravel roads, and Iwas invited to do that and I
went on a four-day trip with abike.
That really wasn't very suitedfor it, but I went, and I was
invited to do that, and I wenton a four-day trip with a bike
that really wasn't very suitedfor it, but I went and I just
loved it because it combinedbike touring with, essentially
(13:15):
with backpacking and I've alwaysliked to backpack, I've always
loved the wilderness and thewoods and the mountains.
So that one trip combining,which was my first bikepacking
trip in central Oregon, I justfell in love with the sport of
bikepacking again because itcombined my two, two of my
favorite things to do, which onebeing cycling and the other
(13:37):
being backpacking in the woodsand in the mountains.
I kind of progressed from there.
I did the first four-day tripand then, I think later that
summer, I did a route called theOregon Outback, which was six
or seven days and that goes fromthe east side of the Cascades
in Oregon, from Southern Oregon,up to the Columbia River.
(13:59):
Totally enjoyed that.
Oh, and in between there I gota bike that was better suited
for bikepacking.
Then I was motivated to do aride called the Great Divide
mountain bike route, which is anadventure cycling route that
goes from Banff, britishColumbia, to the Mexico-US
(14:22):
border in New Mexico.
That was a long route that was2,400 miles, and I was pretty
motivated to do that.
I watched a lot of videosonline.
There's a fellow by the name ofRyan Van Duser, who likes to
motivate people to get off theircouches.
He rode the Great Divide and Iwatched his videos and I said
(14:42):
I'm going to do that.
I wound up writing the GreatDivide for two months, between
July and August of 2022.
And then it was just what was Igoing to do next?
And I heard about the BajaDivide and that looked really
intriguing and I decided to doit, even though it was a little
(15:06):
bit scary, because it's quite abit more difficult than the
Great Divide route in the UnitedStates.
Tom Butler (15:13):
I'd like to cover a couple things here.
Can you talk a little bit moreabout that first time that
you're like getting off thepavement?
That you're like getting offthe pavement, were you thinking
that you know, okay, this is adifferent thing to do.
Or were you thinking that I,you know, I think that would
(15:34):
meet my interests more thanactually being on pavement?
Max Rosenberg (15:38):
yeah.
So I was invited to this tripin central o and I think it was
in 2019 or 20,.
No, it was 2020.
I really didn't know too muchwhat to expect, but what I
really liked immediately was thefact that there are no cars, or
very, very few cars.
So one of the things about Iremember very clearly about the
(16:02):
Transamerica route, particularlythe eastern half, was by the
time I finished it, I loved thetrip.
I absolutely loved it.
You know, I felt, you know,totally fit and alive and free,
all the great things that cycletouring brings.
But I was pretty tired ofdealing with traffic.
(16:23):
But I was pretty tired ofdealing with traffic and I
remember that I was kind ofrelieved to be done because, you
know, after seven weeks of, youknow, constantly looking in
your mirror to make sure the caris going to pull over and not
hit you, it becomes a littlestressful after a while.
(16:43):
Yeah, and so that's the firstthing I really noticed about
riding on the back, you know, ondirt roads, was that there was
essentially no traffic.
Tom Butler (17:08):
So you learned on that trip that your setup wasn't
ideal for that kind of ridingor that kind of long-term riding
.
Maybe can you talk about whatwent into your choice of bike
after that.
What?
What were the things that youstarted looking for?
Max Rosenberg (17:15):
yeah, I did that first trip on a bike friday.
Are you familiar with a bikefriday?
I'm not okay.
It's a 20 inch folding travelbike oh, wow, wow, okay, and it
was the bike that I alwaystoured on.
It's a very good bike.
They're built here in EugeneOregon, so they're a local brand
and but they fit into a normalsize suitcase.
And so I had done all mytouring on this folding travel
(17:40):
bike called a bike Friday and Ireally did not want another bike
.
Bike called a bike Friday and Ireally did not want another
bike.
So I put a little bit widertires on this bike Friday and
took it on the trip and thewoman that organized it, she's
gone.
You can't take that and I go.
Well, yes, I can.
And we were both right Uh, shewas right that it probably
(18:03):
wasn't the best bike.
You know the.
The wheels were just too smalland they weren't wide enough.
But I did it.
It was definitely more suitedfor pavement than Bike Friday.
I fell in love with the idea ofbikepacking on that trip so I
started to research what wouldbe a better bike.
I don't remember how I finallylanded on a Surly Bridge Club,
(18:27):
but that's what I landed on.
It can take either 27 and ahalf inch wheels or 29 inch
wheels and it has mountain bikegears, a very upright riding
position, hydraulic disc brakes,which are very, very important
for riding loaded off-road,because you have some really
steep descents and I just youknow that was another problem
(18:51):
with my old bike Friday.
It didn't have disc brakes solong steep descents were pretty
hard on the hands.
So I don't remember exactly howI landed on that bike, but
that's what I landed on, theSurly Bridge Clubhead.
Tom Butler (19:05):
It was one of the criteria.
You were looking for somethingthat would take gear on it, that
you could put racks on it andthings like that versatile to
put different kinds of racks onit, but primarily what you're
looking for for.
Max Rosenberg (19:32):
I call this type of bike an off-road touring bike
, so it's essentially a touringbike, but designed for dirt,
gravel, rock, sand.
So it's kind of a.
It's like a touring bike butwith mountain bike tires and
wheels and mountain bike gear.
Tom Butler (19:43):
Yeah, gotcha.
Max Rosenberg (19:44):
Yeah.
So I was looking for a bikethat had very low gearing, so
something like a mountain bike,so you know you, you could climb
up very steep trails with aheavy load and something that
that had the ability to havevery, very wide tires, because
off-road, particularly in sandor loose rock or cobbles, the
(20:11):
bigger the tire you have, thelower the inflation pressure,
the smoother the ride, thebetter the traction, and it's
just wider is better.
Tom Butler (20:22):
The one thing that I always think about is if I'm
going to climb up a steep grade,I'm going to go pretty slow.
I am not a strong climber.
And if I'm carrying a bunch ofgear on a bike and I'm going I
don't know three, four miles anhour up a hill, it seems like
(20:43):
there's an element of trying tojust stay upright, going that
slow when you start goingthrough medium-sized gravel or
sand or things like that.
Is that an issue?
Do you find that to be the case?
Max Rosenberg (20:59):
Yeah, there's a point where walking is better.
So this whole sport is calledbikepacking.
Your listeners probably knowthat, but if they don't, that's
what it's called.
It's essentially touring ondirt roads and cheap trails and
things like that, sometimessingle track, but mostly it's
gravel roads, dirt roads, cheaptrails.
(21:20):
So there's a certain pointwhere, particularly if the road
is very rough, if it's likerocky, you're just better off
walking because you're going soslowly that you are more
susceptible to falling down.
And so that's what people inthis sport call hike a bike.
That's what people in thissport call hike a bike.
Tom Butler (21:43):
So now you're hiking with your bike Right right.
Max Rosenberg (21:47):
Yeah.
Tom Butler (21:47):
And that's just something that you expect to do
from time to time.
Max Rosenberg (21:50):
it sounds like yes, yes, you do.
There is a website,bikepackingcom.
These fellows from Colorado,but also Mexico, they've kind of
taken it upon themselves to bekind of a receptory of all
different kinds of bikepackingroutes all over the world, and
when you're researching a route,it'll tell you the percent
(22:12):
rideable and that implies thatthe other percent is not
rideable.
Tom Butler (22:18):
Yeah, okay.
Max Rosenberg (22:19):
Yeah, so you're going to expect that you're
going to be pushing your bikesup.
Tom Butler (22:24):
At some point you decide to do the Baja Divide and
you were looking at a bikeroute, the Baja Divide bike
route.
Max Rosenberg (22:36):
Yeah, that's what it's called.
It's called the Baja Divide.
I guess it may be the BajaDivide mountain bike route, but
it was actually I was looking at.
I'm going to give apresentation at my bike club on
June 8th.
It was put together in 2016 bytwo people, nicholas Carmen and
Lyle Wilcox.
(22:56):
Lyle Wilcox I don't know aboutNicholas Carmen, but Lyle Wilcox
, from what I understand, is avery well-known bike racer, not
in terms of a track racer or aroad racer, but she's like.
I think she holds the women'sworld record for the Great
Divide mountain bike race, andso she's pretty well-known.
(23:18):
So, apparently, in 2016, theydecided to build a route through
the length of Baja California,and that's what they went ahead
and did.
It's 1,730 miles longaltogether, 95% unpaved, and you
asked the question aboutexpecting to ride or not.
It says 99% rideable.
(23:40):
Okay, yeah.
Tom Butler (23:43):
When you looked at that.
I heard you say somethingearlier that made me think that
this was going to be a differentkind of challenge than you'd
done before.
Did I hear that right?
Max Rosenberg (23:54):
You did hear that right.
So a couple of things.
It is ranked as much moredifficult than the Great Divide,
the ride down the rockies inthe united states.
It's ranked more difficultbecause the roads are much
rougher.
So the great divide is ispredominantly for a service
(24:18):
gravel road, you know so,although there are some cheap
trails and some single track andcertainly some areas you have
to push, most of it is prettyeasy gravel riding the great
divide, they say, be preparedfor cobbles, you know, uh, sharp
rocks, lots of sand and eventhough there are not huge long
(24:42):
climbs like there are in theRockies where you're nine miles
and going up 5,000 feet, theroads are very short climbs but
extremely steep and thenextremely steep descents, so
kind of like the AppalachianMountains Up and down mountains,
and so did you preparedifferently for that ride than
(25:07):
you would have prepared forother rides.
Yeah, there were a couple ofthings I did.
There are two other things thatmake it different.
Number one it's in Mexico, soyou have the language and the
culture.
And then the other thing isthat there's one four day
stretch where you have to carryall your water.
So you're, you're loading down13, loaded down with 13 liters
(25:29):
of water.
It's a stretch they called thewild Pacific stretch.
Tom Butler (25:34):
And how far is that again?
Max Rosenberg (25:35):
Well, it took me three and a half days to do that
.
Tom Butler (25:38):
Okay.
Max Rosenberg (25:39):
Wild Pacific, and so I started out that stretch
with 13 liters of water on mybike, and on the other
bikepacking trips I'd doneusually I wasn't carrying any
more than two or three liters.
Tom Butler (25:51):
Okay.
Max Rosenberg (25:52):
Yeah, there's just.
You know there are a lot ofstreams and everything and but
in Baja there were longstretches with basically no
water.
Tom Butler (26:01):
That's one of the biggest questions I have about
bikepacking, you know is I amsuch a wimp, you know, when it
comes to water, because you knowit's like I want to be able to
to stop at a convenience stationor something you know, and
refill up my water bottles andthrow my electrolytes in there,
(26:22):
you know, and go and not carrymuch.
It's a dynamic there that youhave to think about.
Max Rosenberg (26:29):
I really like learning foreign languages, so
I'd started to learn Spanishabout three or four years ago.
That was really nice that Ispoke Spanish, because you're in
a lot of really far away places, there aren't a lot of tourists
and I didn't find hardlyanybody that spoke any English.
You're getting water fromranches, the rancheros, and
(26:49):
they'll offer you food.
So it really helped to speaksome Spanish.
Although it's not necessary,it's definitely a big help.
The other preparation I did youasked about preparation was I
put the widest tires I possiblycould on my bike.
When I did the Great Divide, themountain bike route from Banff
to New Mexico, because that wasgravel road, mostly gravel road
(27:14):
I was using 2.3 inch tires, butmy bike can fit up to 2.8 inch
tires, so verging on balloontires, but not quite.
So I got 2.8 inch tires.
I just had to adjust my kit sothat most days I was well.
Most days I was carrying six toeight liters of water.
(27:35):
I had to figure out how I wasgoing to carry 13 liters of
water, and so I figured that out, and that was from a logistical
standpoint.
That was probably thepreparation phase for the bike.
It was just figuring out how Iwas going to carry my camping
gear and my clothes, my food and13 liters of water.
Tom Butler (27:58):
And then, of course, you're taking food.
Were you pretty much, I'mthinking, doing dehydrated food,
that you would do if you're ona backpacking trip, and things
like that?
Max Rosenberg (28:11):
I don't have celiac disease but I don't do
well with gluten and wheat, soin the States it's pretty easy
to avoid gluten and wheat.
So I was a little nervous aboutthat going down to Mexico, but
the food turned out to be reallyno problem.
Usually you would go throughsmall villages once or twice a
(28:36):
day and every little villagedown there has a tienda, a shop,
and they had things like fruitobviously, they had coffee and
tea and sugar, they had packetsof spiced meats like in a foil
container, they had tuna fish,they had obviously tortillas,
(29:00):
corn tortillas, and they hadlike dried mashed potatoes and
vegetables.
So it was really pretty easy tofind good things to eat.
I was a little nervous aboutthe food before I left but I
realized quickly that reallywasn't a problem.
Tom Butler (29:21):
That's a huge thing, right.
I mean to find out that youweren't going to have some of
the challenges that you thought.
That can make a big difference.
You're putting out a lot ofcalories a day.
Max Rosenberg (29:30):
Yeah, for sure.
And definitely peanut butter.
And what's that Nutella?
For lunch, I would eat a lot ofpeanut butter and Nutella
burritos.
Okay, they're super highcalorie and usually after you
eat a couple of those you'reready to roll.
Tom Butler (29:48):
And you're talking about corn tortillas.
Max Rosenberg (29:52):
Yes, with peanut butter Okay.
Tom Butler (29:53):
So that's interesting to me.
I mean, for some reason I think, a flour tortilla that works
okay.
But when you start puttingpeanut butter on corn, corn,
well the flour tortillas werebetter, but I I avoided them.
Max Rosenberg (30:09):
I I did right.
Talk about this later.
I did team up with some people.
But yeah, actually Nutella andpeanut butter and corn tortillas
are pretty good because itcorns holds the corn tortilla
together.
You, you know they tend to be alittle crumbly.
Tom Butler (30:23):
Right, okay.
Max Rosenberg (30:25):
Yeah.
Tom Butler (30:27):
Did you have to take into account weather conditions
for the trip?
Is that something that youthought about, something you had
to deal with?
Max Rosenberg (30:36):
Yes, very much so .
And again, I have to mentionthe bikepackingcom website which
gives the GPS files for theroute.
It would be impossible to dothis route if you didn't have a
GPS guidance system.
I mean, you would just behopelessly lost.
But they also tell you what'sthe best time of year to do it,
(30:58):
because Baja, particularlysouthern Baja, is just blazing
hot in the summer.
So they recommend doing itbetween October and March,
probably the better time beingJanuary and February.
So I was able to block out themonths of January and February
of this year, 2024.
And that's when I did it.
(31:32):
But in terms of weather,surprisingly, the first three
weeks were during, the day, werelike in the low to mid 60s, so
extremely perfect cyclingweather.
However, the nights were very,very, very cold, because you're
in the desert in winter, thedesert in winter, and so the
minute the sun went down it justgot really cold.
And we had I say we, I'll maybetalk about my trail family
(31:53):
later, but we had mornings wewoke up anywhere between 20 and
30 degrees Very cold at nightfor the first three weeks, so
say the first third of the trip.
The whole trip took seven weeks,the first a little more than
the first third very cold nights, and then in the middle the
nights were more like in the 40sand by the end the nights by
(32:13):
the southern half the nightswere in the 50s.
Tom Butler (32:16):
Well, that sounds like a pretty big range.
Did you work it out where youcould unload some equipment
after a while, or did you haveto carry gear that would allow
you to stay warm when it's 20degrees out the whole time?
Max Rosenberg (32:33):
Well, that's kind of funny.
So I brought some thermaltights for my legs, but they
were super old ones that I'd hadfor years and my plan was to
jettison them as soon as Ididn't need them.
So that's what I did.
Okay, Um the other, the couplethat I wound up riding six weeks
, uh with.
(32:54):
They bought some down jacketsat a secondhand store and, uh,
they thought they were going tojettison those at some point.
But they wound up keeping themthe entire time because it still
was cool at night at times, butthe only thing I jettisoned
were my tights.
There came a point where I saidI don't need these anymore.
Tom Butler (33:14):
Gotcha, you mentioned people that you rode
with a couple times here, so didyou start out planning to ride
with people or did you start outplanning to ride by yourself?
How did that come about?
Can I digress just a littleyeah, for sure, for sure, okay,
in 2022, when I rode the greatdivide mountain bike route from
(33:36):
banff to the mexican border inthe rockies.
Max Rosenberg (33:40):
When I came back I was super psyched.
I mean it was great.
I just really had a great time.
I met a lot of people.
It was just wonderful Beautifulscenery.
So I gave a presentation at mybike club here in Eugene and had
a pretty good showing andeverybody was like after the
presentation people were comingup to me Max, what a great
presentation.
(34:00):
Looks like you had a great time.
I am so glad I wasn't therewith you.
That was like almost universal.
It was like oh boy, that lookedhard, you're sleeping out,
you're camping every night,you're filthy, dirty.
I'm so glad you had a good time, but I would never do that.
(34:22):
But there was one guy that cameup to me and said boy, I'd like
to do something like that.
So to answer your questiondirectly was I couldn't find
anybody that wanted to go withme.
Presentation of the GreatDivide.
(34:46):
He did want to go, but he couldonly do three weeks.
He actually joined me for thefinal three weeks, but I started
by myself and I remember.
Now one of your questions wasyou know, how did your family
feel about you undertaking thistrip?
And my wife, I mean, she's veryunderstanding, she knows I love
to do these things and she letsme go for two months and that's
not an issue.
(35:06):
You know we keep in touch whenwe can, but she was a bit
nervous about me doing this onmy own.
But I was determined to do itand I could not find anybody to
go with me that I knew, exceptfor Brian on the last third.
So I had to start out on my own.
But there is a Facebook groupcalled the Baja Divide.
(35:29):
I joined that group to see if Icouldn't find somebody that
might want to start with me orto ride with me.
There was a couple from GreatBritain that was starting more
or less when I wanted to start.
There was a couple from Denmarkand there was a couple from
Walla Walla, washington thatwere all starting more or less
(35:51):
on the same day or within a dayor two from when I wanted to
start.
So I sent them all messagesthrough Facebook, explained who
I was, blah, blah, and they allbasically responded well, yeah,
maybe we'll see you on the trail, and I don't know why, but
(36:19):
there was one couple inparticular, mark and Linda, and
I remember sitting on the couchwith my wife a couple of days
before I'm leaving and they'vegot this picture and they turn
out to be they're about 60 yearsold and I go now.
This looks like the rightpeople for me to team up with.
So I sent them a message and Igot more or less the same
(36:40):
response.
Well, yeah, sure, maybe we'llsee on the trail, but nothing,
firm Right.
But I showed my wife look, he'sgot gray hair.
This is perfect.
And so when I started, I turnsout I started a day before they
did out of Tecate, mexico.
Well, actually it starts in SanDiego.
You ride a day in California,then you cross the border at
(37:02):
Tecate, san Diego.
You ride a day in California,then you cross the border in
Tecate.
And I got to Tecate a daybefore they did and I started
texting them and giving themlittle updates about what to
expect, because I had it in mylittle pea brain that these were
the people I should team upwith.
So I wound up riding only twodays and then the third day
(37:24):
there was a huge sandstorm.
So I took a hotel and rode outthe sandstorm, but they didn't.
And they caught up to me on theend of the third day in Mexico,
went out to the grocery storeand I see them riding in the
town as I'm going back to myhotel, which was at a campsite
(37:48):
and I knew it was them.
There they are.
Obviously, we kind of zoomedtogether.
You just naturally do that on aride like this.
You know you kind of.
You just naturally cometogether with other cyclists
when you're on something likethis.
And sure enough, it was Markand Linda and they were having a
(38:08):
hard time finding a hotel.
They couldn't speak any Spanishand they were.
They people were telling themno and they didn't know what the
people were telling him andthey go.
Tom Butler (38:17):
Do you?
Max Rosenberg (38:17):
have to speak any Spanish and I go, yeah, yeah, a
little yeah.
So I got him a hotel room andthat was kind of the start of
things.
I need company and, you know,in order to be safe, it's better
, obviously, not to be byyourself.
So I needed the partners, andit turns out they could use
someone that spoke some Spanish.
Tom Butler (38:38):
Yeah.
Max Rosenberg (38:38):
Yeah.
So it was kind of a match madein heaven and we agreed to meet
the next morning and we wound upriding together for seven weeks
.
Tom Butler (38:48):
Nice, nice.
What a way to get to knowpeople right.
Max Rosenberg (38:53):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Tom Butler (38:54):
Nice.
Max Rosenberg (38:55):
There's a term in backpacking and also
bikepacking called a trailfamily or a tramily.
Tom Butler (39:03):
Okay, or is a?
Max Rosenberg (39:04):
tramily.
On other trips that I've donewhether it be road trips like
the Trans Am or the Pacificcoast, that I've ridden long
tours, road tours or the greatdivide of the Baja divide you
know you meet people and thepeople that ride at your speed
and that you enjoy their company.
You tend to build a littletrail family.
(39:25):
This was a six-week trailfamily and I mean we really did
become a family.
It was really one of theamazing things about it.
Yeah.
Tom Butler (39:35):
Nice, that's awesome .
Max Rosenberg (39:37):
Yeah.
Tom Butler (39:38):
So how did your body respond physically to the
challenge?
Did you feel like you wereprepared?
Was it like other challenges?
You were prepared.
Was it like other challenges?
You had done?
Was that okay?
Max Rosenberg (39:48):
So yeah, I know your podcast is about cycling
over 60.
And you know, I retired when Iwas 58 and didn't really give a
thought.
You know, when I was in my 50sor my early 60s I didn't really
give it much of a thought.
I felt pretty strong and Ididn't feel like I was really
(40:10):
aging that much yet.
But the great divide, the onein the Rockies, you know, that
one I was kind of like, well, Idon't know if I can do this, but
I'm going to try.
And my plan was, if I can't doit, I'm just going to bail out
and take a bus home.
(40:30):
I'm a big cyclist.
I probably ride five days aweek with the club here in
Eugene.
So I'm, you know, I'm prettyfit and I think you had
mentioned something about earlyon.
You mentioned something aboutthe bicycle being a health
device.
You know, I kind of look at itcycling as the fountain of youth
.
Tom Butler (40:49):
Right.
Max Rosenberg (40:50):
I mean I.
There are people in our clubthat are in their mid eighties
that are riding, and I've I'vemet other cyclists in their mid
eighties that, can you know,outride me.
Tom Butler (40:59):
Right.
Max Rosenberg (41:00):
Yeah, I mean it can be a real fountain of youth,
and I look at it that way.
Tom Butler (41:05):
I actually love it when I'm climbing up some hill
and struggling and then, likesome 75-year-old woman, just
steadily, just passes me andleaves me behind.
I mean it's like, yes, I'd loveto see that.
Max Rosenberg (41:22):
Yeah, so the great divide, my my plan was
I'll do it if I can, and sothat's how I approach these
things, and in the great divide,it worked out no problem.
I had no problem.
I do remember one time in theborder of wyoming and colorado
and there was a little trailerparked I start to stop to get.
This was on the Great Divide in2022.
(41:44):
And I stopped there and theguys at the park asked me how
old I was, and so at the time, Iwas 66.
And oh, you're the oldest onethis year.
Tom Butler (41:56):
Wow.
Max Rosenberg (41:57):
All right, I'll take that.
Tom Butler (41:59):
Yeah.
Max Rosenberg (42:00):
So this time I was 69 and it was going to be a
harder ride, so I justapproached it the same way.
It's like, well, I'm going totry, and if I can do it, great,
and if I can't I'll just grabthe bus and come home must be a
(42:23):
dynamic there.
Tom Butler (42:23):
I mean you talked about half and carry water
because there wasn't going to beany place to stop and get water
.
Just thinking that part of thetrip must be a dynamic where
it's really rustic along the way.
It's not like you have a hoteleverywhere that you're going to
pull into.
Was it more so that way on thistrip than you think on most
trips, or was it about the same?
Max Rosenberg (42:46):
Uh, there were stretches on this trip, like
that four day stretch on thePacific where I had to carry 13
liters of water, where it'spretty remote and I would say
the Baja Divide is more remote,Although there are little
villages.
Like I said, for the most partyou're probably going through at
(43:07):
least one or two little tinyvillages with a store every day,
and actually in Mexico you canget water at the store.
They usually have a big tank ofpurified water and for two
pesos you can get a liter ofwater.
So a lot of times we filled upat the Tiendas and then the
other place we filled up were atthe ranches, because, um, these
(43:29):
, the route is very remote wereat the ranches because the route
is very remote.
But the rancheros have realizedthat there are these cyclists
going by and they've started alittle bit of a cottage industry
providing food and water andeven places to sleep, if you
want, on their ranches.
To be honest with you, I neveronce used my water filter, wow,
(43:51):
wow, yeah, I mean I wasconstantly filtering water on
the Great Divide and in theRockies, but we got water at the
Tiendas, at the Rancheros, andthen I was looking at my notes
for my presentation and it turnsout that we stayed in a hotel
every fourth night, and so wewould.
On average.
(44:11):
We would camp three nights justout in the middle of the desert
, just anywhere you want, youknow, we would just okay, it's
time to stop.
We had our water with us, wehad our food with us, so we just
picked a flat spot with a niceview and we just camp, and we
did that three nights out offour.
But every time we had a chanceto stay in a hotel, we did.
(44:31):
Without a doubt, the longeststretch I went without being in
a hotel was six nights okaythere was one stretch of six
nights camping and I say justwild camping in the desert or on
the beach gotcha, I mean,there's an aspect of that that's
really appealing to me.
Tom Butler (44:50):
You know especially that like camping out on the
beach, gotcha, I mean there's anaspect of that that's really
appealing to me.
You know, especially that likecamping out on the beach I'm
always curious about is theresomething about your background
that there is an element ofproblem solving?
There's kind of a mindset ofbeing self-reliant and
everything, and I'm justwondering if there's something
about your background that kindof prepared you for that.
Max Rosenberg (45:13):
I don't know, I do.
I do like being self-reliant,like a lot of my friends do bike
tours, you know, organizedtours with a company or
something, and it just does notappeal to me.
I just don't have any interestin that.
I've I've always kind of likedto just be, I guess, be in
charge, do it my own way.
I wouldn't say be in charge,but be responsible, I think, and
(45:36):
I enjoy the challenge offiguring things out.
Is there something in mybackground, boy?
I don't know.
I know that when I was ayoungster I joined the Boy
Scouts.
That was my first experience inbackpacking.
I fell in love with backpackingwhen I was 14 years old as a
(46:01):
Boy Scout.
I think that probably instillsa certain amount of ability to
solve problems and prepare, beprepared.
That's the Boy Scout motto.
I wasn't an Eagle Scout oranything like that, but if you
ask that question, that's thething that pops into my mind I
(46:25):
was a Boy Scout.
Tom Butler (46:26):
Be prepared.
You've done quite a few trips.
Do you feel like there was anyspecific moment or moments on
this trip that changed youroutlook, that that was kind of a
special moment that you haven'thad before?
Max Rosenberg (46:52):
highlights for me ?
I wouldn't say that there wassome.
Well, I'll try to answer thatquestion a little bit in a
roundabout fashion.
Number one camping out in thedesert under a billion stars or
on the beach under a billionstars, with nobody around, with
a beautiful dark sky.
Almost that entire peninsula isa dark sky and every night was
just spectacular.
(47:14):
So every night to me was just ajoy to be camped out in the
desert with a billion stars.
There were a few days that wereextremely difficult and so I
suppose those were challenges,and so I suppose those were
(47:34):
challenges.
Funny thing the first day, fromsan diego to tecate, I I got a
late start, I had to assemble mybike out of the bike box and I
I kind of stripped out thederailleur hanger screw, I was
staying with.
Uh, a friend of mine from thebike club said oh, I have a
friend, steve, who lives rightnear the airport in San Diego
and he'll pick you up and youcan spend the night there.
And anyway, we had to order aspecial tool to kind of rethread
(47:56):
my derailleur hanger on my bike.
So I didn't leave San Diegountil quarter to 11.
And it was a 55 mile, 3,600foot climb with all my gear the
first day, wow.
And I had a reservation for ahotel in Tecate and I really
didn't want to be riding it atnight.
And it was, and it was January5th, the days were short.
(48:19):
So the very first day was areally hard day and I actually
started cramping up.
You know, probably 10 milesshort of Tecate and, uh, you
know, I had to walk to probablythe hardest day I've ever ridden
just because I got such a latestart and I could not ride that
road at night.
It was dangerous, it was a lotof traffic and no shoulder.
(48:40):
So I had kind of a pretty.
I had a challenging first day,let's put it that way, so that
kind of tested me, and thenanother day that I really.
There were two other days thatI really remember.
There was one stretch I waswith Mark and Linda at this
point, when the road is calledthe Rancho Melling stretch up
(49:06):
down, up down, up down, rutted,loose sand on the granite, very
slippery, very steep.
We only made 20 miles that dayand both Linda and I fell down
on a descent.
She fell down twice.
I fell down once.
(49:32):
I was afraid I was going tobreak me or my bike when I fell,
because it was a pretty hardfall.
So that day was very, verychallenging.
And that day was the day Idecided OK, the prime directive
is I finish this ride with mybike and myself in one piece,
and I realized that that had tobe the prime directive.
I realized that that had to bethe prime directive.
As I did the ride, I was moreand more accomplished at riding
(49:54):
on difficult tracks, but Ialways had in mind when in doubt
walk.
So that day that I fell waskind of an eye-opener.
And we only made 20 miles.
My average was like 35 miles aday and I just remember Linda
(50:18):
and I were just absolutelyexhausted.
Mark was an animal and he is,he's unbelievably strong.
I mean we were just like Ican't believe this guy can ride
on this.
But Linda and I were justnormal humans.
So, uh, um.
And then there was another daywhere we had 60-mile-an-hour
winds and that was extremelychallenging.
I mean, it was hard.
There were 30-mile-an-hourwinds but they gusted to 60.
(50:41):
And if they hit you from theside they'd just push you right
over.
But we had no choice.
We had to basically make it toour destination that day because
, uh well, there was just we didfor supply reasons.
We had to reach this littlevillage.
So those were the three daysthat I remember were the ones
(51:01):
that were particularlychallenging.
I can remember that windy day inparticular, mark and Linda.
There there was Highway 1.
That's the main highway thatruns up and down the Baja
Peninsula, and they decidedwe're going to try riding
Highway 1.
And I went out.
There there was a place wherewe were only three miles from
the highway, so we rode over toit and the highway was elevated
(51:25):
and I could not stay on my bikeon the highway.
It's two lanes wide, but evenriding down the center line it
was just blowing me off the road.
Wow, yeah.
So I went.
I said I'm going back to thetrail and they were going to try
the highway.
So I went by myself that dayback to the trail because I
didn't want to be hit by a truckor anything.
(51:45):
I just remember that day, andin particular by myself, just
saying you just have to keepgoing.
Tom Butler (51:52):
You, you know, just keep going, just keep going,
just keep going that there'sthis end point and I'm going to
get there at this time.
I'm going to do anything andeverything to make that end
(52:16):
point that there are times youhave to back off and, like what
you said, you know I actuallywant to survive this trip, so
you know that might that mightchange how fast I go at some
time, that might change myitinerary at some point.
But you know there are thingsto take into account more than
just getting at this place bythis time.
Max Rosenberg (52:35):
Yeah, I wasn't rushing this trip.
I had talked to some otherpeople that had done it, a
couple of guys from Bend.
They're members of theCorvallis Bike Club, which I
sometimes ride with theCorvallis Club, and so I talked
to this guy, john, and he didthe Baja Divide and he's a
stronger rider than I am.
And he said, yeah, you know, wewe went about 30 miles a day on
(52:59):
the great divide.
I was doing like I think Iaveraged 55, you know, and you
know, almost like a road tour.
Usually I average like 65 on aroad tour tour, usually I
average like 65 on a road tour.
And he said, oh, no, you're notgoing to be doing 55.
I was prepared and I planned for33 miles a day, which is I
averaged 35.
But, to answer, kind of yourpoint, the only time we would
(53:22):
push it is if we had to make itsomewhere because of water or
food or some other reason.
Other than that, uh, we prettymuch went with the flow and, um,
you know, we would stop when wewere tired and everything we
needed and you know it's like,yeah, we've had enough today,
let's.
You know, let's stop.
Um, the other thing that we didon this trip, because the
(53:46):
writing was very hard.
I mean, it really beats yourbody.
Either the sand is hard to ridein, it's just slow, or very,
very rocky, like riding oncobbles all the time.
Every time we had a chance totake a hotel, we took a hotel
and I was looking back on mynotes and I rode for 42 days and
(54:07):
I took nine rest days.
Normally when I tour I don'ttake very many rest days.
I usually ride every day.
I just like riding and I don'tfeel like I need rest days.
But on this one, to think thatevery fourth day was a rest day
kind of tells you how hard itwas.
Tom Butler (54:27):
What's next?
Do you have something in mind,something that you want to take
on in the future?
Max Rosenberg (54:52):
health.
So my wife and I actually justgot just came back from a month
in Spain where we were on areconnaissance mission to see
where we might live for a year.
Yeah, I've really fallen weboth have fallen in love with
Latin culture and Spanish, andso we were there looking on a
reconnaissance mission to seewhere we might want to live for
a year and we came back.
But right now I have to do sometests and we're not exactly
(55:16):
sure if we're going to be ableto go to Spain.
We were hoping to go thisSeptember and so if it turns out
that we can go, our plan is togo live in Spain for a year can
go, our plan is to go live inSpain for a year, and if we do
that, I think what I would liketo do.
At the end of that year my wifeValerie will come home and I
(55:40):
would stay and do a route calledthe European Divide.
I wouldn't do all of it.
It starts up in northern Norway, goes through Sweden and goes
all the way down to Portugal.
I would not do the Swedish part, but I would probably do
Denmark to Portugal.
Tom Butler (55:59):
Well, I hope that you get really good news on all
those fronts and you're able todo that, because that sounds
like it would be a wonderfulthing.
Max Rosenberg (56:09):
Thank you very much.
Thank you very much.
Tom Butler (56:12):
Max, thank you so much for joining me.
This has been a blast and youknow, when you talk about
getting out there in under thestars and just clear skies, you
know, not polluted, not blockedby pollution or anything getting
getting away from cars, it justsounds so attractive to me and
(56:37):
I'm so glad that you came andshared that journey with us.
Max Rosenberg (56:39):
Yeah, I would.
I would recommend to anybodywho likes the outdoors, who
likes to camp and who likes tocycle to try bikepacking.
It is really an amazing sport.
Tom Butler (56:51):
Well, I have a goal of doing some overnight trips.
I you know I'm going to startthere.
I'm not going to launch on ayou know, 40 day trip, because I
do like backpacking and I thinkwe have some great places to
try that.
So you're an inspiration for me.
Max Rosenberg (57:09):
I'm really looking forward to experiencing
that.
Tom Butler (57:10):
So you're an inspiration for me, you know I
really, I really looking forwardto experiencing more.
Max Rosenberg (57:13):
Yeah, Well, I've.
I've been inspired by otherpeople, so it's good to be able
to pass it on.
Tom Butler (57:18):
Nice.
Max Rosenberg (57:19):
Yeah.
Tom Butler (57:19):
All right, thank you , take care.
Max Rosenberg (57:21):
Okay, bye-bye.
Tom Butler (57:31):
One thing that really stood out to me about
Mac's trip on the Baja Divide ishaving to carry 13 liters of
water.
That says a lot to me about howremote the section of that trip
is.
As I said before, it would takea lot for me to even consider
that kind of cycling adventure.
There are a lot of rides Icould do.
(57:52):
That would provide anindication of what off-road
adventure I could handle.
The great divide mountain bikeroute sounds like it would have
sections that could bemanageable at my current level
of cycling.
Bikepackingcom has someovernight trip suggestions for
the great divide.
Seems to me that starting withseveral overnight trips is the
way to go and I'm activelylooking for an overnight trip to
do.
I hope you are finding routesthat are just the right kind of
(58:13):
challenge for you, whether thatmeans on pavement or on dirt and
remember age is just a gearchange.
This is the Cycling Over 60 podcast, season three,
episode 32, biking the BajaDivide.
And I'm your host, tom Butler.
I will be doing a 60 mile rideon the Centennial Trail this
(00:26):
weekend, starting in Snohomish,washington.
The last time I did this routewas on my 60th birthday.
There were a lot of differences.
For that first trip, I was on afitness bike instead of the
road bike I will ride this time.
I expect this change to make asignificant difference.
I'd only been riding a fewmonths at the point when I rode
the trail the first time.
(00:47):
I know a heck of a lot moreabout how my body handles riding
longer distances.
Now.
We did an 11 mile per houraverage on that ride.
I think I'll do better thisweekend.
Last time it was pretty coldand we hit a stretch where we
had to ride through some freshsnow.
This time, I think the weatheris going to be excellent.
It is possible that it will bea bit on the warm side, but I
(01:08):
believe there is going to beplenty of shade and we will be
enjoying the warmth.
Even with all the advantagesthat I'll have this time over
Lass, this will be the longestride I've done in a while, so
I'm not 100% sure I will do okay.
Last time my knee bursitisflared up for the first time and
it was at about 50 miles, andafterwards I had a good amount
(01:29):
of cramping.
I will be very disappointed ifI get a repeat of either of
those problems.
We're doing the ride a coupleweeks before Kelly turns 60, so
we're starting a tradition ofdoing that ride around turning
60.
It'll be really fun if we canfind others who want to do this
in the future.
The Centennial Trail isn't ahuge challenge because the trail
(01:49):
is quite flat.
There is 1,200 feet ofelevation gain over the whole
trail and it's a rails-to-trailsproject, so the climbs aren't
steep.
One objective of this ride isto test a new feeding strategy
for Seattle to Portland.
I want to stress here that I'mnot telling you what to do.
In fact, there are some thingsgoing on with my metabolism that
make it better that you don'tdo what I'm doing.
(02:11):
I've decided to use dates as aprimary source of carbohydrates
on long rides.
My plan is to keep a steadyintake of carbohydrates by
having a few dates every halfhour.
I'm intrigued by dates for anumber of reasons.
Of course, they are a naturalsource of carbohydrates.
The fiber content means thatthe sugar from dates is more
slowly absorbed, so that canprevent a sugar crash that comes
(02:34):
from more processed options.
Dates are rich in potassium andmagnesium, so they help provide
electrolytes, and also datesare rich in polyphenols and
antioxidants, which can reduceoxidative stress in the body.
And an added bonus is thatdates are a source of a little
allulose, and the more I learnabout allulose, the more
(02:55):
intrigued I am with it.
Here is how I came up with mycurrent plan for what to eat
when cycling.
I kind of arbitrarily picked600 calories an hour that I
expect to burn.
Actually, I think it could beanywhere from 500 to 700
calories an hour Over the day.
I'm thinking I will burn around3,600 calories riding and other
caloric output.
I'll have a good breakfast anda good lunch halfway through the
(03:18):
ride, so I think I need to takein about 1,200 calories while
riding.
I'll have one protein barbetween breakfast and lunch and
one between lunch and the end ofthe ride.
The bars are Think brand andare sugar-free.
That means they aren't a quicksource of carbohydrates.
The bars are 230 calories each,so that brings my caloric
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deficit down to 640.
When I looked it up, it appearsthat dates are worth 25
calories apiece depending on thetype of date.
So I figure 26 dates over theday will do it.
So that would be like 2-3 datesevery half hour.
I am comfortable with taking inthat many dates.
I think I've been eating enoughdates recently that it won't be
(03:59):
a problem for my intestinaltract, but if I'm wrong about
that, it's not going to be ideal.
Another thing that I will teston the ride is a new electrolyte
strategy.
A couple of weeks ago I talkedabout using a homemade
electrolyte mixture.
I've decided not to rely onthat for longer rides until I've
had more experience with it.
As a reminder, I'm just sharingwhat I'm doing, but it is an
(04:20):
advice for what you should doand there might be reasons why
you shouldn't do what I'm doing.
As an advice for what youshould do and there might be
reasons why you shouldn't dowhat I'm doing, I'm going to use
the Electrolyte brand liquid IV, but do some modifications to
it.
First off, it has no magnesium.
The daily magnesiumrecommendation when active is
500 milligrams for men.
I would really like to naildown just how much magnesium I
(04:42):
really need, but for now it'sstill based on some assumptions.
There doesn't seem to be muchrisk of taking too much
magnesium because it is easy forthe kidneys to get rid of
excess.
I've decided to take in 100milligrams of magnesium an hour,
so that will have to be addedin to the liquid IV.
A packet of liquid IV has 350milligrams of sodium.
(05:02):
However, I think I'm sweatingout closer to 2,000 milligrams
per hour.
I sweat more than most peopleand I drink a lot of water when
I'm done on a hot day.
My skin is very salty and thereare salt deposits where drops
of sweat have landed on the bike.
The Himalayan salt we use has520 milligrams of sodium in a
(05:23):
quarter of a teaspoon, has 520milligrams of sodium in a
quarter of a teaspoon, so I willadd a quarter teaspoon to what
is in the liquid IV packet.
I picked up some really smallZiploc bags that work well for
electrolyte powder, so I willuse those.
Overall, my main objective istake in enough electrolytes so
that I don't cramp, and I'll bereally excited if, after the
(05:45):
ride is over, I have no crampingwhatsoever.
Another big goal for the ride isto see if Kelly's battery can
last 60 miles.
I think that a metric centuryis likely the longest we will
ride in a day and I do think herbattery can last like 62, 63
miles of what a metric centuryis, but we need to verify that.
(06:06):
We have done 50 miles a fewtimes and it seems like she's
had plenty battery left.
It will help that this route isflat.
She doesn't need muchassistance at all if she's on
the flat and especially ifthere's a little bit of a
downhill.
While her bike has regenerativebraking, I don't think it will
come into play much on this trip.
It'll be interesting to see ifshe gets much braking generation
(06:29):
at all.
I'm very confident that she'llmake it to 50 miles and after
that the remaining 10 miles ismostly downhill, so even if the
battery is out, she can mostlikely make it back to the car.
There's just so many things tobe excited about this trip and I
can't wait to get rolling.
Another thing I'll share is Igot bad news recently that the
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construction has been delayed onthe bridge that is out on the
foothills trail.
That means I will not have asafe route down to the valley
until this fall and thatpotentially impacts my plan for
the first cycling over 60 ridethat is scheduled for September
14th.
I'm going to move forward,believing that the route will be
(07:10):
open by the 14th of September,but I might have to pivot if it
doesn't look good by the end ofAugust.
I've interviewed a few peoplelately about their adventures
riding on multi-day trips, andthis episode is also about a
(07:32):
bike trip, but this is a bitdifferent because it's an
off-road trip.
Max Rosenberg joined me to talkabout his ride on the Baja
Divide, a 1,730-mile backpackingroute that connects the Pacific
Ocean and the Sea of Cortez.
I'm always thinking aboutgetting to the place where I can
do more off-road discovery.
However, I think the BajaDivide is definitely a bit
(07:55):
outside my abilities.
Here's our conversation.
I'm here once again to talkabout a cycling adventure.
Thanks, max Rosenberg, forjoining me and sharing your
experience.
You're welcome.
I have a strong feeling thatyou're going to be talking about
something that will becomeanother ride to add to my list
of rides that I want to dosomeday.
(08:16):
But let's first start here.
What is your earliest memory ofthe bicycle?
Max Rosenberg (08:21):
Oh, my earliest memory is when I was probably
four or five, learning how toride a bike.
We lived on a little bit of ahill and I remember I had
training wheels.
When I finally did learn how tobalance, I remember just riding
around the neighborhood andfeeling like I was flying.
Tom Butler (08:42):
You know, I think that's the wonderful memory, you
know, of that freedom of likethe expanded world that you get
when you can get on a bike, andI love that.
Max Rosenberg (08:54):
Yeah, yeah, definitely I.
Just I remember that it waslike whoa, this is cool.
Tom Butler (09:00):
Now did you keep cycling as you grew older?
How did your relationship withcycling change as you got older?
Max Rosenberg (09:09):
Right, I rode my bike a lot for transportation
throughout my childhood.
I used it for a paper route todeliver papers.
In high school I had somefriends that were starting to do
longer distance cycling.
I grew up in the Bay Area ofCalifornia and so we did some
longer rides up on SkylineBoulevard, but I never was like
(09:34):
into racing or too serious, itwas mostly just transportation.
Then I went to UC Davis as anundergrad and that is a real
bicycle town Really.
You know everybody rides theirbike there.
So I've always it's always beenpart of my life as
transportation, but not reallywhat I say.
I became a cyclist until my45th birthday when I split my
(10:01):
meniscus running.
Tom Butler (10:03):
Oh, okay.
Max Rosenberg (10:04):
Yeah, after two years of physical therapy it
wasn't getting any better, sothey didn't know it was split
when they did an MRI.
Finally I went and had surgeryand I remember, during the
operation, the doctor, goes.
Oh well, yeah, you've got ameniscus tear and and oh, that's
almost down to the bone.
I go.
What do you mean?
Down to the bone?
Well, well, you know yourcartilage is worn.
(10:25):
I think you should stop runningand take up the bicycle.
That's what the surgeon, duringthe operation to fix my torn
meniscus said, and that's what Idid.
So I quit running and startedcycling for exercise.
Tom Butler (10:42):
Did you feel like you were missing something by
not running, or did you findwhat you were experiencing, the
enjoyment you had of running,that the bike provided that?
Max Rosenberg (10:53):
You know I can say that I missed running a lot
and it took me a while toreplace that feeling with the
bike, because I was a prettyserious runner and I like to run
out in the woods and everythingand go on.
You know trips go to WashingtonDC and run around and look at
all the memorials in the earlymorning and it was easy, you
(11:16):
know, to run wherever you wentbecause all you needed were
running shoes.
You didn't need a bike.
But once I accepted the factthat I wasn't going to be a
runner anymore, I got intocycling and I've never looked
back.
Tom Butler (11:29):
I've really enjoyed it what we are talking about
today is a trip you did on thebaja divide.
First off, can you talk aboutthat ride?
How did you hear about it?
What kind of attracted you tothat ride?
Max Rosenberg (11:47):
I've been a cycle tourist for quite a while.
I'll kind of give you a briefbackground on my touring history
.
I started touring when I wasstill working and there were a
group of fellows where I workedand we would go on what we
called the shakedown ride everyyear.
Usually it was a three or fourday tour around Oregon and we
(12:09):
cycled all over Oregon and partof Washington and Northern
California.
Then, when I retired, the firstthing I really wanted to do was
ride down the Pacific coast.
So I did that and justabsolutely loved it.
The feeling of freedom, youknow, just having everything you
need and nothing you don't allon your bicycle.
(12:30):
It's just an incredible feelingof freedom in two parts In 2017
, the western half, and then2019, the eastern half.
Then COVID hit.
During COVID, I was invited todo what's called a bikepacking
(12:54):
trip.
It's kind of like bike touring,but it's, they say, off-road,
on dirt or gravel roads, and Iwas invited to do that and I
went on a four-day trip with abike.
That really wasn't very suitedfor it, but I went, and I was
invited to do that, and I wenton a four-day trip with a bike
that really wasn't very suitedfor it, but I went and I just
loved it because it combinedbike touring with, essentially
(13:15):
with backpacking and I've alwaysliked to backpack, I've always
loved the wilderness and thewoods and the mountains.
So that one trip combining,which was my first bikepacking
trip in central Oregon, I justfell in love with the sport of
bikepacking again because itcombined my two, two of my
favorite things to do, which onebeing cycling and the other
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being backpacking in the woodsand in the mountains.
I kind of progressed from there.
I did the first four-day tripand then, I think later that
summer, I did a route called theOregon Outback, which was six
or seven days and that goes fromthe east side of the Cascades
in Oregon, from Southern Oregon,up to the Columbia River.
(13:59):
Totally enjoyed that.
Oh, and in between there I gota bike that was better suited
for bikepacking.
Then I was motivated to do aride called the Great Divide
mountain bike route, which is anadventure cycling route that
goes from Banff, britishColumbia, to the Mexico-US
(14:22):
border in New Mexico.
That was a long route that was2,400 miles, and I was pretty
motivated to do that.
I watched a lot of videosonline.
There's a fellow by the name ofRyan Van Duser, who likes to
motivate people to get off theircouches.
He rode the Great Divide and Iwatched his videos and I said
(14:42):
I'm going to do that.
I wound up writing the GreatDivide for two months, between
July and August of 2022.
And then it was just what was Igoing to do next?
And I heard about the BajaDivide and that looked really
intriguing and I decided to doit, even though it was a little
(15:06):
bit scary, because it's quite abit more difficult than the
Great Divide route in the UnitedStates.
Tom Butler (15:13):
I'd like to cover a couple things here.
Can you talk a little bit moreabout that first time that
you're like getting off thepavement?
That you're like getting offthe pavement, were you thinking
that you know, okay, this is adifferent thing to do.
Or were you thinking that I,you know, I think that would
(15:34):
meet my interests more thanactually being on pavement?
Max Rosenberg (15:38):
yeah.
So I was invited to this tripin central o and I think it was
in 2019 or 20,.
No, it was 2020.
I really didn't know too muchwhat to expect, but what I
really liked immediately was thefact that there are no cars, or
very, very few cars.
So one of the things about Iremember very clearly about the
(16:02):
Transamerica route, particularlythe eastern half, was by the
time I finished it, I loved thetrip.
I absolutely loved it.
You know, I felt, you know,totally fit and alive and free,
all the great things that cycletouring brings.
But I was pretty tired ofdealing with traffic.
(16:23):
But I was pretty tired ofdealing with traffic and I
remember that I was kind ofrelieved to be done because, you
know, after seven weeks of, youknow, constantly looking in
your mirror to make sure the caris going to pull over and not
hit you, it becomes a littlestressful after a while.
(16:43):
Yeah, and so that's the firstthing I really noticed about
riding on the back, you know, ondirt roads, was that there was
essentially no traffic.
Tom Butler (17:08):
So you learned on that trip that your setup wasn't
ideal for that kind of ridingor that kind of long-term riding
.
Maybe can you talk about whatwent into your choice of bike
after that.
What?
What were the things that youstarted looking for?
Max Rosenberg (17:15):
yeah, I did that first trip on a bike friday.
Are you familiar with a bikefriday?
I'm not okay.
It's a 20 inch folding travelbike oh, wow, wow, okay, and it
was the bike that I alwaystoured on.
It's a very good bike.
They're built here in EugeneOregon, so they're a local brand
and but they fit into a normalsize suitcase.
And so I had done all mytouring on this folding travel
(17:40):
bike called a bike Friday and Ireally did not want another bike
.
Bike called a bike Friday and Ireally did not want another
bike.
So I put a little bit widertires on this bike Friday and
took it on the trip and thewoman that organized it, she's
gone.
You can't take that and I go.
Well, yes, I can.
And we were both right Uh, shewas right that it probably
(18:03):
wasn't the best bike.
You know the.
The wheels were just too smalland they weren't wide enough.
But I did it.
It was definitely more suitedfor pavement than Bike Friday.
I fell in love with the idea ofbikepacking on that trip so I
started to research what wouldbe a better bike.
I don't remember how I finallylanded on a Surly Bridge Club,
(18:27):
but that's what I landed on.
It can take either 27 and ahalf inch wheels or 29 inch
wheels and it has mountain bikegears, a very upright riding
position, hydraulic disc brakes,which are very, very important
for riding loaded off-road,because you have some really
steep descents and I just youknow that was another problem
(18:51):
with my old bike Friday.
It didn't have disc brakes solong steep descents were pretty
hard on the hands.
So I don't remember exactly howI landed on that bike, but
that's what I landed on, theSurly Bridge Clubhead.
Tom Butler (19:05):
It was one of the criteria.
You were looking for somethingthat would take gear on it, that
you could put racks on it andthings like that versatile to
put different kinds of racks onit, but primarily what you're
looking for for.
Max Rosenberg (19:32):
I call this type of bike an off-road touring bike
, so it's essentially a touringbike, but designed for dirt,
gravel, rock, sand.
So it's kind of a.
It's like a touring bike butwith mountain bike tires and
wheels and mountain bike gear.
Tom Butler (19:43):
Yeah, gotcha.
Max Rosenberg (19:44):
Yeah.
So I was looking for a bikethat had very low gearing, so
something like a mountain bike,so you know you, you could climb
up very steep trails with aheavy load and something that
that had the ability to havevery, very wide tires, because
off-road, particularly in sandor loose rock or cobbles, the
(20:11):
bigger the tire you have, thelower the inflation pressure,
the smoother the ride, thebetter the traction, and it's
just wider is better.
Tom Butler (20:22):
The one thing that I always think about is if I'm
going to climb up a steep grade,I'm going to go pretty slow.
I am not a strong climber.
And if I'm carrying a bunch ofgear on a bike and I'm going I
don't know three, four miles anhour up a hill, it seems like
(20:43):
there's an element of trying tojust stay upright, going that
slow when you start goingthrough medium-sized gravel or
sand or things like that.
Is that an issue?
Do you find that to be the case?
Max Rosenberg (20:59):
Yeah, there's a point where walking is better.
So this whole sport is calledbikepacking.
Your listeners probably knowthat, but if they don't, that's
what it's called.
It's essentially touring ondirt roads and cheap trails and
things like that, sometimessingle track, but mostly it's
gravel roads, dirt roads, cheaptrails.
(21:20):
So there's a certain pointwhere, particularly if the road
is very rough, if it's likerocky, you're just better off
walking because you're going soslowly that you are more
susceptible to falling down.
And so that's what people inthis sport call hike a bike.
That's what people in thissport call hike a bike.
Tom Butler (21:43):
So now you're hiking with your bike Right right.
Max Rosenberg (21:47):
Yeah.
Tom Butler (21:47):
And that's just something that you expect to do
from time to time.
Max Rosenberg (21:50):
it sounds like yes, yes, you do.
There is a website,bikepackingcom.
These fellows from Colorado,but also Mexico, they've kind of
taken it upon themselves to bekind of a receptory of all
different kinds of bikepackingroutes all over the world, and
when you're researching a route,it'll tell you the percent
(22:12):
rideable and that implies thatthe other percent is not
rideable.
Tom Butler (22:18):
Yeah, okay.
Max Rosenberg (22:19):
Yeah, so you're going to expect that you're
going to be pushing your bikesup.
Tom Butler (22:24):
At some point you decide to do the Baja Divide and
you were looking at a bikeroute, the Baja Divide bike
route.
Max Rosenberg (22:36):
Yeah, that's what it's called.
It's called the Baja Divide.
I guess it may be the BajaDivide mountain bike route, but
it was actually I was looking at.
I'm going to give apresentation at my bike club on
June 8th.
It was put together in 2016 bytwo people, nicholas Carmen and
Lyle Wilcox.
(22:56):
Lyle Wilcox I don't know aboutNicholas Carmen, but Lyle Wilcox
, from what I understand, is avery well-known bike racer, not
in terms of a track racer or aroad racer, but she's like.
I think she holds the women'sworld record for the Great
Divide mountain bike race, andso she's pretty well-known.
(23:18):
So, apparently, in 2016, theydecided to build a route through
the length of Baja California,and that's what they went ahead
and did.
It's 1,730 miles longaltogether, 95% unpaved, and you
asked the question aboutexpecting to ride or not.
It says 99% rideable.
(23:40):
Okay, yeah.
Tom Butler (23:43):
When you looked at that.
I heard you say somethingearlier that made me think that
this was going to be a differentkind of challenge than you'd
done before.
Did I hear that right?
Max Rosenberg (23:54):
You did hear that right.
So a couple of things.
It is ranked as much moredifficult than the Great Divide,
the ride down the rockies inthe united states.
It's ranked more difficultbecause the roads are much
rougher.
So the great divide is ispredominantly for a service
(24:18):
gravel road, you know so,although there are some cheap
trails and some single track andcertainly some areas you have
to push, most of it is prettyeasy gravel riding the great
divide, they say, be preparedfor cobbles, you know, uh, sharp
rocks, lots of sand and eventhough there are not huge long
(24:42):
climbs like there are in theRockies where you're nine miles
and going up 5,000 feet, theroads are very short climbs but
extremely steep and thenextremely steep descents, so
kind of like the AppalachianMountains Up and down mountains,
and so did you preparedifferently for that ride than
(25:07):
you would have prepared forother rides.
Yeah, there were a couple ofthings I did.
There are two other things thatmake it different.
Number one it's in Mexico, soyou have the language and the
culture.
And then the other thing isthat there's one four day
stretch where you have to carryall your water.
So you're, you're loading down13, loaded down with 13 liters
(25:29):
of water.
It's a stretch they called thewild Pacific stretch.
Tom Butler (25:34):
And how far is that again?
Max Rosenberg (25:35):
Well, it took me three and a half days to do that
.
Tom Butler (25:38):
Okay.
Max Rosenberg (25:39):
Wild Pacific, and so I started out that stretch
with 13 liters of water on mybike, and on the other
bikepacking trips I'd doneusually I wasn't carrying any
more than two or three liters.
Tom Butler (25:51):
Okay.
Max Rosenberg (25:52):
Yeah, there's just.
You know there are a lot ofstreams and everything and but
in Baja there were longstretches with basically no
water.
Tom Butler (26:01):
That's one of the biggest questions I have about
bikepacking, you know is I amsuch a wimp, you know, when it
comes to water, because you knowit's like I want to be able to
to stop at a convenience stationor something you know, and
refill up my water bottles andthrow my electrolytes in there,
(26:22):
you know, and go and not carrymuch.
It's a dynamic there that youhave to think about.
Max Rosenberg (26:29):
I really like learning foreign languages, so
I'd started to learn Spanishabout three or four years ago.
That was really nice that Ispoke Spanish, because you're in
a lot of really far away places, there aren't a lot of tourists
and I didn't find hardlyanybody that spoke any English.
You're getting water fromranches, the rancheros, and
(26:49):
they'll offer you food.
So it really helped to speaksome Spanish.
Although it's not necessary,it's definitely a big help.
The other preparation I did youasked about preparation was I
put the widest tires I possiblycould on my bike.
When I did the Great Divide, themountain bike route from Banff
to New Mexico, because that wasgravel road, mostly gravel road
(27:14):
I was using 2.3 inch tires, butmy bike can fit up to 2.8 inch
tires, so verging on balloontires, but not quite.
So I got 2.8 inch tires.
I just had to adjust my kit sothat most days I was well.
Most days I was carrying six toeight liters of water.
(27:35):
I had to figure out how I wasgoing to carry 13 liters of
water, and so I figured that out, and that was from a logistical
standpoint.
That was probably thepreparation phase for the bike.
It was just figuring out how Iwas going to carry my camping
gear and my clothes, my food and13 liters of water.
Tom Butler (27:58):
And then, of course, you're taking food.
Were you pretty much, I'mthinking, doing dehydrated food,
that you would do if you're ona backpacking trip, and things
like that?
Max Rosenberg (28:11):
I don't have celiac disease but I don't do
well with gluten and wheat, soin the States it's pretty easy
to avoid gluten and wheat.
So I was a little nervous aboutthat going down to Mexico, but
the food turned out to be reallyno problem.
Usually you would go throughsmall villages once or twice a
(28:36):
day and every little villagedown there has a tienda, a shop,
and they had things like fruitobviously, they had coffee and
tea and sugar, they had packetsof spiced meats like in a foil
container, they had tuna fish,they had obviously tortillas,
(29:00):
corn tortillas, and they hadlike dried mashed potatoes and
vegetables.
So it was really pretty easy tofind good things to eat.
I was a little nervous aboutthe food before I left but I
realized quickly that reallywasn't a problem.
Tom Butler (29:21):
That's a huge thing, right.
I mean to find out that youweren't going to have some of
the challenges that you thought.
That can make a big difference.
You're putting out a lot ofcalories a day.
Max Rosenberg (29:30):
Yeah, for sure.
And definitely peanut butter.
And what's that Nutella?
For lunch, I would eat a lot ofpeanut butter and Nutella
burritos.
Okay, they're super highcalorie and usually after you
eat a couple of those you'reready to roll.
Tom Butler (29:48):
And you're talking about corn tortillas.
Max Rosenberg (29:52):
Yes, with peanut butter Okay.
Tom Butler (29:53):
So that's interesting to me.
I mean, for some reason I think, a flour tortilla that works
okay.
But when you start puttingpeanut butter on corn, corn,
well the flour tortillas werebetter, but I I avoided them.
Max Rosenberg (30:09):
I I did right.
Talk about this later.
I did team up with some people.
But yeah, actually Nutella andpeanut butter and corn tortillas
are pretty good because itcorns holds the corn tortilla
together.
You, you know they tend to be alittle crumbly.
Tom Butler (30:23):
Right, okay.
Max Rosenberg (30:25):
Yeah.
Tom Butler (30:27):
Did you have to take into account weather conditions
for the trip?
Is that something that youthought about, something you had
to deal with?
Max Rosenberg (30:36):
Yes, very much so .
And again, I have to mentionthe bikepackingcom website which
gives the GPS files for theroute.
It would be impossible to dothis route if you didn't have a
GPS guidance system.
I mean, you would just behopelessly lost.
But they also tell you what'sthe best time of year to do it,
(30:58):
because Baja, particularlysouthern Baja, is just blazing
hot in the summer.
So they recommend doing itbetween October and March,
probably the better time beingJanuary and February.
So I was able to block out themonths of January and February
of this year, 2024.
And that's when I did it.
(31:32):
But in terms of weather,surprisingly, the first three
weeks were during, the day, werelike in the low to mid 60s, so
extremely perfect cyclingweather.
However, the nights were very,very, very cold, because you're
in the desert in winter, thedesert in winter, and so the
minute the sun went down it justgot really cold.
And we had I say we, I'll maybetalk about my trail family
(31:53):
later, but we had mornings wewoke up anywhere between 20 and
30 degrees Very cold at nightfor the first three weeks, so
say the first third of the trip.
The whole trip took seven weeks,the first a little more than
the first third very cold nights, and then in the middle the
nights were more like in the 40sand by the end the nights by
(32:13):
the southern half the nightswere in the 50s.
Tom Butler (32:16):
Well, that sounds like a pretty big range.
Did you work it out where youcould unload some equipment
after a while, or did you haveto carry gear that would allow
you to stay warm when it's 20degrees out the whole time?
Max Rosenberg (32:33):
Well, that's kind of funny.
So I brought some thermaltights for my legs, but they
were super old ones that I'd hadfor years and my plan was to
jettison them as soon as Ididn't need them.
So that's what I did.
Okay, Um the other, the couplethat I wound up riding six weeks
, uh with.
(32:54):
They bought some down jacketsat a secondhand store and, uh,
they thought they were going tojettison those at some point.
But they wound up keeping themthe entire time because it still
was cool at night at times, butthe only thing I jettisoned
were my tights.
There came a point where I saidI don't need these anymore.
Tom Butler (33:14):
Gotcha, you mentioned people that you rode
with a couple times here, so didyou start out planning to ride
with people or did you start outplanning to ride by yourself?
How did that come about?
Can I digress just a littleyeah, for sure, for sure, okay,
in 2022, when I rode the greatdivide mountain bike route from
(33:36):
banff to the mexican border inthe rockies.
Max Rosenberg (33:40):
When I came back I was super psyched.
I mean it was great.
I just really had a great time.
I met a lot of people.
It was just wonderful Beautifulscenery.
So I gave a presentation at mybike club here in Eugene and had
a pretty good showing andeverybody was like after the
presentation people were comingup to me Max, what a great
presentation.
(34:00):
Looks like you had a great time.
I am so glad I wasn't therewith you.
That was like almost universal.
It was like oh boy, that lookedhard, you're sleeping out,
you're camping every night,you're filthy, dirty.
I'm so glad you had a good time, but I would never do that.
(34:22):
But there was one guy that cameup to me and said boy, I'd like
to do something like that.
So to answer your questiondirectly was I couldn't find
anybody that wanted to go withme.
Presentation of the GreatDivide.
(34:46):
He did want to go, but he couldonly do three weeks.
He actually joined me for thefinal three weeks, but I started
by myself and I remember.
Now one of your questions wasyou know, how did your family
feel about you undertaking thistrip?
And my wife, I mean, she's veryunderstanding, she knows I love
to do these things and she letsme go for two months and that's
not an issue.
(35:06):
You know we keep in touch whenwe can, but she was a bit
nervous about me doing this onmy own.
But I was determined to do itand I could not find anybody to
go with me that I knew, exceptfor Brian on the last third.
So I had to start out on my own.
But there is a Facebook groupcalled the Baja Divide.
(35:29):
I joined that group to see if Icouldn't find somebody that
might want to start with me orto ride with me.
There was a couple from GreatBritain that was starting more
or less when I wanted to start.
There was a couple from Denmarkand there was a couple from
Walla Walla, washington thatwere all starting more or less
(35:51):
on the same day or within a dayor two from when I wanted to
start.
So I sent them all messagesthrough Facebook, explained who
I was, blah, blah, and they allbasically responded well, yeah,
maybe we'll see you on the trail, and I don't know why, but
(36:19):
there was one couple inparticular, mark and Linda, and
I remember sitting on the couchwith my wife a couple of days
before I'm leaving and they'vegot this picture and they turn
out to be they're about 60 yearsold and I go now.
This looks like the rightpeople for me to team up with.
So I sent them a message and Igot more or less the same
(36:40):
response.
Well, yeah, sure, maybe we'llsee on the trail, but nothing,
firm Right.
But I showed my wife look, he'sgot gray hair.
This is perfect.
And so when I started, I turnsout I started a day before they
did out of Tecate, mexico.
Well, actually it starts in SanDiego.
You ride a day in California,then you cross the border at
(37:02):
Tecate, san Diego.
You ride a day in California,then you cross the border in
Tecate.
And I got to Tecate a daybefore they did and I started
texting them and giving themlittle updates about what to
expect, because I had it in mylittle pea brain that these were
the people I should team upwith.
So I wound up riding only twodays and then the third day
(37:24):
there was a huge sandstorm.
So I took a hotel and rode outthe sandstorm, but they didn't.
And they caught up to me on theend of the third day in Mexico,
went out to the grocery storeand I see them riding in the
town as I'm going back to myhotel, which was at a campsite
(37:48):
and I knew it was them.
There they are.
Obviously, we kind of zoomedtogether.
You just naturally do that on aride like this.
You know you kind of.
You just naturally cometogether with other cyclists
when you're on something likethis.
And sure enough, it was Markand Linda and they were having a
(38:08):
hard time finding a hotel.
They couldn't speak any Spanishand they were.
They people were telling themno and they didn't know what the
people were telling him andthey go.
Tom Butler (38:17):
Do you?
Max Rosenberg (38:17):
have to speak any Spanish and I go, yeah, yeah, a
little yeah.
So I got him a hotel room andthat was kind of the start of
things.
I need company and, you know,in order to be safe, it's better
, obviously, not to be byyourself.
So I needed the partners, andit turns out they could use
someone that spoke some Spanish.
Tom Butler (38:38):
Yeah.
Max Rosenberg (38:38):
Yeah.
So it was kind of a match madein heaven and we agreed to meet
the next morning and we wound upriding together for seven weeks
.
Tom Butler (38:48):
Nice, nice.
What a way to get to knowpeople right.
Max Rosenberg (38:53):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Tom Butler (38:54):
Nice.
Max Rosenberg (38:55):
There's a term in backpacking and also
bikepacking called a trailfamily or a tramily.
Tom Butler (39:03):
Okay, or is a?
Max Rosenberg (39:04):
tramily.
On other trips that I've donewhether it be road trips like
the Trans Am or the Pacificcoast, that I've ridden long
tours, road tours or the greatdivide of the Baja divide you
know you meet people and thepeople that ride at your speed
and that you enjoy their company.
You tend to build a littletrail family.
(39:25):
This was a six-week trailfamily and I mean we really did
become a family.
It was really one of theamazing things about it.
Yeah.
Tom Butler (39:35):
Nice, that's awesome .
Max Rosenberg (39:37):
Yeah.
Tom Butler (39:38):
So how did your body respond physically to the
challenge?
Did you feel like you wereprepared?
Was it like other challenges?
You were prepared.
Was it like other challenges?
You had done?
Was that okay?
Max Rosenberg (39:48):
So yeah, I know your podcast is about cycling
over 60.
And you know, I retired when Iwas 58 and didn't really give a
thought.
You know, when I was in my 50sor my early 60s I didn't really
give it much of a thought.
I felt pretty strong and Ididn't feel like I was really
(40:10):
aging that much yet.
But the great divide, the onein the Rockies, you know, that
one I was kind of like, well, Idon't know if I can do this, but
I'm going to try.
And my plan was, if I can't doit, I'm just going to bail out
and take a bus home.
(40:30):
I'm a big cyclist.
I probably ride five days aweek with the club here in
Eugene.
So I'm, you know, I'm prettyfit and I think you had
mentioned something about earlyon.
You mentioned something aboutthe bicycle being a health
device.
You know, I kind of look at itcycling as the fountain of youth
.
Tom Butler (40:49):
Right.
Max Rosenberg (40:50):
I mean I.
There are people in our clubthat are in their mid eighties
that are riding, and I've I'vemet other cyclists in their mid
eighties that, can you know,outride me.
Tom Butler (40:59):
Right.
Max Rosenberg (41:00):
Yeah, I mean it can be a real fountain of youth,
and I look at it that way.
Tom Butler (41:05):
I actually love it when I'm climbing up some hill
and struggling and then, likesome 75-year-old woman, just
steadily, just passes me andleaves me behind.
I mean it's like, yes, I'd loveto see that.
Max Rosenberg (41:22):
Yeah, so the great divide, my my plan was
I'll do it if I can, and sothat's how I approach these
things, and in the great divide,it worked out no problem.
I had no problem.
I do remember one time in theborder of wyoming and colorado
and there was a little trailerparked I start to stop to get.
This was on the Great Divide in2022.
(41:44):
And I stopped there and theguys at the park asked me how
old I was, and so at the time, Iwas 66.
And oh, you're the oldest onethis year.
Tom Butler (41:56):
Wow.
Max Rosenberg (41:57):
All right, I'll take that.
Tom Butler (41:59):
Yeah.
Max Rosenberg (42:00):
So this time I was 69 and it was going to be a
harder ride, so I justapproached it the same way.
It's like, well, I'm going totry, and if I can do it, great,
and if I can't I'll just grabthe bus and come home must be a
(42:23):
dynamic there.
Tom Butler (42:23):
I mean you talked about half and carry water
because there wasn't going to beany place to stop and get water
.
Just thinking that part of thetrip must be a dynamic where
it's really rustic along the way.
It's not like you have a hoteleverywhere that you're going to
pull into.
Was it more so that way on thistrip than you think on most
trips, or was it about the same?
Max Rosenberg (42:46):
Uh, there were stretches on this trip, like
that four day stretch on thePacific where I had to carry 13
liters of water, where it'spretty remote and I would say
the Baja Divide is more remote,Although there are little
villages.
Like I said, for the most partyou're probably going through at
(43:07):
least one or two little tinyvillages with a store every day,
and actually in Mexico you canget water at the store.
They usually have a big tank ofpurified water and for two
pesos you can get a liter ofwater.
So a lot of times we filled upat the Tiendas and then the
other place we filled up were atthe ranches, because, um, these
(43:29):
, the route is very remote wereat the ranches because the route
is very remote.
But the rancheros have realizedthat there are these cyclists
going by and they've started alittle bit of a cottage industry
providing food and water andeven places to sleep, if you
want, on their ranches.
To be honest with you, I neveronce used my water filter, wow,
(43:51):
wow, yeah, I mean I wasconstantly filtering water on
the Great Divide and in theRockies, but we got water at the
Tiendas, at the Rancheros, andthen I was looking at my notes
for my presentation and it turnsout that we stayed in a hotel
every fourth night, and so wewould.
On average.
(44:11):
We would camp three nights justout in the middle of the desert
, just anywhere you want, youknow, we would just okay, it's
time to stop.
We had our water with us, wehad our food with us, so we just
picked a flat spot with a niceview and we just camp, and we
did that three nights out offour.
But every time we had a chanceto stay in a hotel, we did.
(44:31):
Without a doubt, the longeststretch I went without being in
a hotel was six nights okaythere was one stretch of six
nights camping and I say justwild camping in the desert or on
the beach gotcha, I mean,there's an aspect of that that's
really appealing to me.
Tom Butler (44:50):
You know especially that like camping out on the
beach, gotcha, I mean there's anaspect of that that's really
appealing to me.
You know, especially that likecamping out on the beach I'm
always curious about is theresomething about your background
that there is an element ofproblem solving?
There's kind of a mindset ofbeing self-reliant and
everything, and I'm justwondering if there's something
about your background that kindof prepared you for that.
Max Rosenberg (45:13):
I don't know, I do.
I do like being self-reliant,like a lot of my friends do bike
tours, you know, organizedtours with a company or
something, and it just does notappeal to me.
I just don't have any interestin that.
I've I've always kind of likedto just be, I guess, be in
charge, do it my own way.
I wouldn't say be in charge,but be responsible, I think, and
(45:36):
I enjoy the challenge offiguring things out.
Is there something in mybackground, boy?
I don't know.
I know that when I was ayoungster I joined the Boy
Scouts.
That was my first experience inbackpacking.
I fell in love with backpackingwhen I was 14 years old as a
(46:01):
Boy Scout.
I think that probably instillsa certain amount of ability to
solve problems and prepare, beprepared.
That's the Boy Scout motto.
I wasn't an Eagle Scout oranything like that, but if you
ask that question, that's thething that pops into my mind I
(46:25):
was a Boy Scout.
Tom Butler (46:26):
Be prepared.
You've done quite a few trips.
Do you feel like there was anyspecific moment or moments on
this trip that changed youroutlook, that that was kind of a
special moment that you haven'thad before?
Max Rosenberg (46:52):
highlights for me ?
I wouldn't say that there wassome.
Well, I'll try to answer thatquestion a little bit in a
roundabout fashion.
Number one camping out in thedesert under a billion stars or
on the beach under a billionstars, with nobody around, with
a beautiful dark sky.
Almost that entire peninsula isa dark sky and every night was
just spectacular.
(47:14):
So every night to me was just ajoy to be camped out in the
desert with a billion stars.
There were a few days that wereextremely difficult and so I
suppose those were challenges,and so I suppose those were
(47:34):
challenges.
Funny thing the first day, fromsan diego to tecate, I I got a
late start, I had to assemble mybike out of the bike box and I
I kind of stripped out thederailleur hanger screw, I was
staying with.
Uh, a friend of mine from thebike club said oh, I have a
friend, steve, who lives rightnear the airport in San Diego
and he'll pick you up and youcan spend the night there.
And anyway, we had to order aspecial tool to kind of rethread
(47:56):
my derailleur hanger on my bike.
So I didn't leave San Diegountil quarter to 11.
And it was a 55 mile, 3,600foot climb with all my gear the
first day, wow.
And I had a reservation for ahotel in Tecate and I really
didn't want to be riding it atnight.
And it was, and it was January5th, the days were short.
(48:19):
So the very first day was areally hard day and I actually
started cramping up.
You know, probably 10 milesshort of Tecate and, uh, you
know, I had to walk to probablythe hardest day I've ever ridden
just because I got such a latestart and I could not ride that
road at night.
It was dangerous, it was a lotof traffic and no shoulder.
(48:40):
So I had kind of a pretty.
I had a challenging first day,let's put it that way, so that
kind of tested me, and thenanother day that I really.
There were two other days thatI really remember.
There was one stretch I waswith Mark and Linda at this
point, when the road is calledthe Rancho Melling stretch up
(49:06):
down, up down, up down, rutted,loose sand on the granite, very
slippery, very steep.
We only made 20 miles that dayand both Linda and I fell down
on a descent.
She fell down twice.
I fell down once.
(49:32):
I was afraid I was going tobreak me or my bike when I fell,
because it was a pretty hardfall.
So that day was very, verychallenging.
And that day was the day Idecided OK, the prime directive
is I finish this ride with mybike and myself in one piece,
and I realized that that had tobe the prime directive.
I realized that that had to bethe prime directive.
As I did the ride, I was moreand more accomplished at riding
(49:54):
on difficult tracks, but Ialways had in mind when in doubt
walk.
So that day that I fell waskind of an eye-opener.
And we only made 20 miles.
My average was like 35 miles aday and I just remember Linda
(50:18):
and I were just absolutelyexhausted.
Mark was an animal and he is,he's unbelievably strong.
I mean we were just like Ican't believe this guy can ride
on this.
But Linda and I were justnormal humans.
So, uh, um.
And then there was another daywhere we had 60-mile-an-hour
winds and that was extremelychallenging.
I mean, it was hard.
There were 30-mile-an-hourwinds but they gusted to 60.
(50:41):
And if they hit you from theside they'd just push you right
over.
But we had no choice.
We had to basically make it toour destination that day because
, uh well, there was just we didfor supply reasons.
We had to reach this littlevillage.
So those were the three daysthat I remember were the ones
(51:01):
that were particularlychallenging.
I can remember that windy day inparticular, mark and Linda.
There there was Highway 1.
That's the main highway thatruns up and down the Baja
Peninsula, and they decidedwe're going to try riding
Highway 1.
And I went out.
There there was a place wherewe were only three miles from
the highway, so we rode over toit and the highway was elevated
(51:25):
and I could not stay on my bikeon the highway.
It's two lanes wide, but evenriding down the center line it
was just blowing me off the road.
Wow, yeah.
So I went.
I said I'm going back to thetrail and they were going to try
the highway.
So I went by myself that dayback to the trail because I
didn't want to be hit by a truckor anything.
(51:45):
I just remember that day, andin particular by myself, just
saying you just have to keepgoing.
Tom Butler (51:52):
You, you know, just keep going, just keep going,
just keep going that there'sthis end point and I'm going to
get there at this time.
I'm going to do anything andeverything to make that end
(52:16):
point that there are times youhave to back off and, like what
you said, you know I actuallywant to survive this trip, so
you know that might that mightchange how fast I go at some
time, that might change myitinerary at some point.
But you know there are thingsto take into account more than
just getting at this place bythis time.
Max Rosenberg (52:35):
Yeah, I wasn't rushing this trip.
I had talked to some otherpeople that had done it, a
couple of guys from Bend.
They're members of theCorvallis Bike Club, which I
sometimes ride with theCorvallis Club, and so I talked
to this guy, john, and he didthe Baja Divide and he's a
stronger rider than I am.
And he said, yeah, you know, wewe went about 30 miles a day on
(52:59):
the great divide.
I was doing like I think Iaveraged 55, you know, and you
know, almost like a road tour.
Usually I average like 65 on aroad tour tour, usually I
average like 65 on a road tour.
And he said, oh, no, you're notgoing to be doing 55.
I was prepared and I planned for33 miles a day, which is I
averaged 35.
But, to answer, kind of yourpoint, the only time we would
(53:22):
push it is if we had to make itsomewhere because of water or
food or some other reason.
Other than that, uh, we prettymuch went with the flow and, um,
you know, we would stop when wewere tired and everything we
needed and you know it's like,yeah, we've had enough today,
let's.
You know, let's stop.
Um, the other thing that we didon this trip, because the
(53:46):
writing was very hard.
I mean, it really beats yourbody.
Either the sand is hard to ridein, it's just slow, or very,
very rocky, like riding oncobbles all the time.
Every time we had a chance totake a hotel, we took a hotel
and I was looking back on mynotes and I rode for 42 days and
(54:07):
I took nine rest days.
Normally when I tour I don'ttake very many rest days.
I usually ride every day.
I just like riding and I don'tfeel like I need rest days.
But on this one, to think thatevery fourth day was a rest day
kind of tells you how hard itwas.
Tom Butler (54:27):
What's next?
Do you have something in mind,something that you want to take
on in the future?
Max Rosenberg (54:52):
health.
So my wife and I actually justgot just came back from a month
in Spain where we were on areconnaissance mission to see
where we might live for a year.
Yeah, I've really fallen weboth have fallen in love with
Latin culture and Spanish, andso we were there looking on a
reconnaissance mission to seewhere we might want to live for
a year and we came back.
But right now I have to do sometests and we're not exactly
(55:16):
sure if we're going to be ableto go to Spain.
We were hoping to go thisSeptember and so if it turns out
that we can go, our plan is togo live in Spain for a year can
go, our plan is to go live inSpain for a year, and if we do
that, I think what I would liketo do.
At the end of that year my wifeValerie will come home and I
(55:40):
would stay and do a route calledthe European Divide.
I wouldn't do all of it.
It starts up in northern Norway, goes through Sweden and goes
all the way down to Portugal.
I would not do the Swedish part, but I would probably do
Denmark to Portugal.
Tom Butler (55:59):
Well, I hope that you get really good news on all
those fronts and you're able todo that, because that sounds
like it would be a wonderfulthing.
Max Rosenberg (56:09):
Thank you very much.
Thank you very much.
Tom Butler (56:12):
Max, thank you so much for joining me.
This has been a blast and youknow, when you talk about
getting out there in under thestars and just clear skies, you
know, not polluted, not blockedby pollution or anything getting
getting away from cars, it justsounds so attractive to me and
(56:37):
I'm so glad that you came andshared that journey with us.
Max Rosenberg (56:39):
Yeah, I would.
I would recommend to anybodywho likes the outdoors, who
likes to camp and who likes tocycle to try bikepacking.
It is really an amazing sport.
Tom Butler (56:51):
Well, I have a goal of doing some overnight trips.
I you know I'm going to startthere.
I'm not going to launch on ayou know, 40 day trip, because I
do like backpacking and I thinkwe have some great places to
try that.
So you're an inspiration for me.
Max Rosenberg (57:09):
I'm really looking forward to experiencing
that.
Tom Butler (57:10):
So you're an inspiration for me, you know I
really, I really looking forwardto experiencing more.
Max Rosenberg (57:13):
Yeah, Well, I've.
I've been inspired by otherpeople, so it's good to be able
to pass it on.
Tom Butler (57:18):
Nice.
Max Rosenberg (57:19):
Yeah.
Tom Butler (57:19):
All right, thank you , take care.
Max Rosenberg (57:21):
Okay, bye-bye.
Tom Butler (57:31):
One thing that really stood out to me about
Mac's trip on the Baja Divide ishaving to carry 13 liters of
water.
That says a lot to me about howremote the section of that trip
is.
As I said before, it would takea lot for me to even consider
that kind of cycling adventure.
There are a lot of rides Icould do.
(57:52):
That would provide anindication of what off-road
adventure I could handle.
The great divide mountain bikeroute sounds like it would have
sections that could bemanageable at my current level
of cycling.
Bikepackingcom has someovernight trip suggestions for
the great divide.
Seems to me that starting withseveral overnight trips is the
way to go and I'm activelylooking for an overnight trip to
do.
I hope you are finding routesthat are just the right kind of
(58:13):
challenge for you, whether thatmeans on pavement or on dirt and
remember age is just a gearchange.
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