Conversations Across America

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Responding to valuable listener feedback, Tom Butler kicks off this episode of the Cycling Over Sixty Podcast by welcoming his wife, Kelly, back to the microphone. Together, they delve deeper into the nuances of cycling as a couple, offering clarification and insights. Following that, we're honored to host Kari Loya, the author of the moving book, Conversations Across America: A Father and Son, Alzheimer's, and 300 Conversations Along the TransAmerica Bike Trail that Capture the Soul of America. Kari recounts the emotional and physical challenges of cycling cross-country with his father amidst the impact of Alzheimer's. He shares the invaluable wisdom gained from this extraordinary experience and the profound importance of listening to the diverse stories encountered along the way.

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Episode Transcript

Tom Butler (00:04):
This is the Cycling Over 60 Podcast, season 3,
episode 30, conversations AcrossAmerica, and I'm your host, tom
Butler.
Last week on the podcast, Italked to my wife, kelly, about

(00:26):
her cycling journey and Ireceived some feedback based on
that conversation with Kelly.
It created a useful discussionbetween us.
I do appreciate it when peopletake the time to reach out to me
.
I decided to have Kelly backduring this week's update to
directly respond to thatfeedback.
Welcome to the podcast, kelly,for a really brief moment.

Kelly Butler (00:47):
Thank you.

Tom Butler (00:48):
This is a first.
I don't think I've had you ontwo weeks in a row.
I'm not going to beinterviewing you, but I did want
you to bring you on forsomething specific.
I received a message from alistener this week that had to
do with our conversation, and soI wanted to have you comment on
it First.
What I'm going to do is I'mgoing to read the message and

(01:10):
then I'm going to say a littlebit about it and then just have
you respond to some things inthe message.
Okay, Okay.
I really think you should listento this last episode a little
bit as an objective listener.
Really think you should listento this last episode a little
bit as an objective listener.
Pretend your roles are switchedand that she's the she being

(01:33):
you Kelly, that she's the avidcyclist and you are not.
It might sound different to you.
To me, it seems like you'retrying to pressure your wife
into enjoying cycling to theextent that you do.
She only enjoys it to a point,so why force it?
Instead of minimizing her lovefor jet skiing and hiking and
worrying about all of herpotential injuries, you might
want to take a look at what youyourself are doing.

(01:54):
You've talked about your ownphysical issues and ailments as
well, yet you continue to cycle.
Why are you allowed to workthrough those, but she's not
allowed to work through hersusing the sports that she loves?
I'm not sure why you're sofocused on the idea of being a
quote cycling family.
People's needs and wants changeall the time.

(02:15):
Maybe at one time, being acycling family was something she
wanted, but perhaps that's nother be-all end-all at this point
Sounds like something you wantway more than she does.
It really sounds like somethingshe's agreed to just to make
you happy.
So there's a little bit more,but that's really the gist of it
.
First of all, what I want tosay and I'm really serious about

(02:38):
this is I'm glad this personreached out and shared these
thoughts, because I think it'simportant and I think this
aspect of like step back andlisten to it and reflect on it,
put yourself in another person'sshoes I think that's really
vital, and so I appreciate that.

(02:59):
I also appreciate the fact thatit sounds like you have people
looking out for you.

Kelly Butler (03:04):
Yeah, thank you, I appreciate it.

Tom Butler (03:07):
So I think that's good too.
Instead of me just sharing mythoughts on this, I do want to
step back and listen to you andput this forward to you and
listen to what you have to sayabout it.
I think that's important.
So I see some sections here,and this is the first section.

(03:27):
It seems like you're trying topressure your wife into enjoying
cycling to the extent that youdo.
She only enjoys it to a point,so why force it?
What do you think when you hearthat point, when you hear that,
that question?

Kelly Butler (03:42):
Um, I don't feel like I have been pressured and I
feel like I'm participating tothe level that I can and want to
.
So if you want more, you mightget some pushback, or I might
want more later, I don't know.
But for now I feel like whatwe've agreed to feels like a
mutual agreement, so I don'tfeel like I'm forced into it.

(04:05):
I do want to participate at alimited level and I think that
level currently is pretty good.

Tom Butler (04:12):
I think we both understand that you don't enjoy
cycling as much as I do.

Kelly Butler (04:15):
Yeah.

Tom Butler (04:30):
Want to be realistic , that what I'm doing could come
across as pressure for you toenjoy it more than you do.
So I just want to say, if youfeel like you're getting
pressure, point that out to me.
Are you willing to do that?
Yeah, I think, so I think so Isthere some nervousness on your
part that, if you would likepush back on me and say, hey,
you're pressuring me, that thatcould shut down my desire to get

(04:52):
out and ride?

Kelly Butler (04:54):
On one level yes, on another level no.

Tom Butler (04:56):
Well, I'm just going to say that you know, I feel
like I really need cycling.
I know that I need to be active, and so I'm going to be cycling
.
I know that I need to be active, and so I'm going to be cycling
.
I do want you to enjoy it and Idon't want you to force you to
ride if you don't want to ride,but I really need to do it.

Kelly Butler (05:17):
Yeah, that's what I want.
I want you to be able tocontinue to do it, and my level
of engagement might vary.

Tom Butler (05:24):
The next thing I think is a little bit more of a
difficult point.
You know this question why areyou allowed to work through
those and that those is risks ofcycling physical limitations
that I have, you know that couldmaybe lead to injury.
Limitations that I have, youknow that could maybe lead to

(05:51):
injury.
Why am I allowed to workthrough those things and
continue to cycle but you're notallowed to work through your
specific physical limitationsfor the things that you love to
do?
I think that's a fair thing.
I think you should be allowedto work through limitations to
do the things that you love todo.
I think that's just fair.

Kelly Butler (06:11):
Yeah.

Tom Butler (06:12):
I think here's where it gets hard is.
I believe there's 100%possibility that you're going to
hurt yourself if you go jetskiing.

Kelly Butler (06:20):
And I think you're crazy.
And I think you're crazy.

Tom Butler (06:32):
So you know, to me there's a risk if I go cycling.
That is not 100%.
I wouldn't be doing it.
If it was 100%, yeah, how?

Kelly Butler (06:37):
you can think it's 100%.
That I'm going to get injuredboggles my mind and I don't
agree.
So you know, yeah, that'stougher, I guess.

Tom Butler (06:46):
And the key is that we don't have to agree, Right?
I mean, you can make yourdecision to do it and I can
cross my fingers that that it'llbe okay.
You know, yeah.
So I'll declare now that go forit, figure out some way to to
jet skiing in the way that youenjoy it.
And yeah, we'll just see whathappens.

Kelly Butler (07:11):
Don't let your cortisol get too high over it.

Tom Butler (07:13):
Well, I'm telling you it's stressful for me and I
think that it is right that Ilet you do risky things.
The last thing that I want totalk about is where this person
says I'm not sure why you're sofocused on the idea of being a
quote cycling family.
So I first want to talk aboutthe family systems dynamic.

(07:36):
So when you do things as afamily, it creates a layer of
motivation that you just don'thave when you're doing things on
your own.
So it's super beneficial tohave.
In an episode I talked about mymy identity.
Part of my identity now is verystrongly that I'm a cyclist,

(08:01):
and so that is really beneficialfor me to make the choices that
I make to continue to cycle.
Having identity that we're acycling family, then that also
creates a really stronglikelihood I'm going to get
exposed to opportunities to docycling.

(08:23):
So that's why it's a positivething if we are a cycling family
.
But it doesn't make any senseto say we're a cycling family if
we're not really a cyclingfamily, if people in the family
don't really enjoy spending timetogether cycling.
It doesn't make any sense tocall ourselves a cycling family
if we're not.

Kelly Butler (08:44):
Well, I don't think I'm as tied to it, you
know, mentally, emotionally, asyou are.
I think it makes sense thatit's going to be easier for you
if we are a cycling family.
I don't think it's essentialfor you to do what you need,
obviously without being acycling family, but I think to
call yourself a cycling familyis just another level of support
that is beneficial.

Tom Butler (09:05):
We talked about.
Are you okay with, for now, usdoing three cycling trips in a
summer?
I don't think there's anythinglike there's no standard where
it's like you need to do thisamount of stuff in order to be a
cycling family.

Kelly Butler (09:26):
I don't think it's in the dictionary.

Tom Butler (09:28):
I don't think it's in the dictionary.
To me it's like if we planthese cycling vacations, these
cycling events, then I'm okaywith that, meaning we're a
cycling family.
How do you feel about that?

Kelly Butler (09:44):
Whatever, this is your, this kind of, is your
mental thing, yes, so it reallydoesn't matter what I think of
it.
I mean I'm just I want to beoutside and having fun with you
and this is, and I enjoy cyclingenough to do that.
If it means more to you thanthat, then hallelujah, but I, I
don't need it.

(10:04):
So it can mean whatever youwant it to mean.

Tom Butler (10:07):
I'm feeling like I have the space in order to keep
cycling, and again three timesduring the summer, if we go on
these cycling trips and then,here and there, we take the
bikes out and go have funtogether.
Invite the kids to go cyclingwith us and we all do it as
family and have fun timetogether.
Invite the kids to go cyclingwith us and we all do it as
family and have fun timetogether.
That's what's important.
I hope that clarifies thingsAgain.

(10:31):
I'm glad this person reachedout and shared their perspective
and their observations.
Do you have anything else?
Any other thoughts that youhave?

Kelly Butler (10:41):
No, I appreciate it.
I'm grateful for thediscussions that it brought and
the thought processes.
So I yeah, I love it awesome.

Tom Butler (10:49):
Thank you, send them in, keep, keep them coming all
right.
Bye for now, bye.
I'm extremely fortunate that Iget to have so many inspiring
conversations with people aboutcycling.
My guest this week is an authorand an educator who cycled

(11:12):
across the US with his father.
Kari Loya experienced a journeythat produced some special
memories, but it also gave himan opportunity to put stories
from his journey in a book toprovide readers some great
insights into life.
Here's my conversation withKari.
My guest today has such atouching and powerful story to
share with the world, and thankyou, kari Loya, for joining me.

Kari Loya (11:36):
So glad to be here, Tom.

Tom Butler (11:37):
We're going to talk about a cycling journey that
Kari went on with his father,Merv, who had started to get
impacted by Alzheimer's.
A book came out of that ride,called Conversations Across
America of Father and SonAlzheimer's and 300
Conversations Along theTransamerica Bike Trail that
Captured the Soul of America.
I see the conversations you hadon the trip as really valuable,

(11:59):
but not more valuable than theones you're having now, where
you take wisdom gained fromthose encounters and bring them
to others through conversationslike what we're having today,
and I'm so glad you're here.

Kari Loya (12:12):
Yeah, thank you so much for that nice introduction.
And again, clearly we share apassion for cycling and
discovery and I'm happy to havethis conversation.

Tom Butler (12:22):
Excellent.
Let's start out with tell meabout your earliest memory of
the bicycle.

Kari Loya (12:29):
This is a bike journey with my dad, and so one
of my earliest memories of abicycle is the fact that I grew
up in Eugene, oregon, that mydad in the seventies was biking
to work.
That was very unusual, muchmore common in certain places
now, but he was a pioneer inthat sense that he would bike to
and from work.
That was very unusual, you know, much more common in certain
places now, but he was a pioneerin that sense that he would
bike to and from work.
And so one of the things that Iremember as a kid was, every

(12:51):
once in a while I would get atag along when I was free, and
so it was the excitement of, youknow, navigating through the
city to the bike paths but alsothe streets.
And I remember how, when hewould come back, you know,
oftentimes you would leave thebike paths but also the streets,
and I remember how, when hewould come back, oftentimes you
would leave the bike path andyou would actually merge into

(13:11):
the lanes and you would treatyourself as a car and get into a
turning lane and signal and allof that.
And it was this wonderfulempowering thrill of, okay, I'm
a bike, but Ooh, I've, I've gotsome power here but I've also
got to be very responsible.
And uh and and and and.
Freedom of biking, but I just Ilove that and that was one of
the early ones.

(13:32):
And then, uh, and then I thinkback to in my sixth grade kind
of the taste of bike adventurewhere we grew up again, eugene,
oregon, a couple hours East inthe Cascades, there the McKenzie
pass which is part of theTransamerica ride, in late May
it's closed all winter but theyopen it up to cars kind of late
May, early June and if youthere's this period where all

(13:55):
the snow has melted beforethey've opened it up and you can
go and you can park at the gateand you can bike six miles up
to the top where you get thatvolcanic pumice and all of that
and see all the volcanoes, thesisters, and then bike back down
.
And I had fond memories of doingthat as a sixth grader.
Amazing Part of adventure isthere's risk.

(14:16):
On our way down I hit somegravel and I crashed and scraped
up my whole side, my elbow.
I've got some scars to this day, went to the ER, er stitches,
all that.
And yet here you know, decadessince I have continued riding
because the reward is so greatthat you are, uh, you know it's
worth the uh, the occasionalcrash here and there.

Tom Butler (14:38):
Um, but those, those are some of the early memories
but that's's a fantasticillustration of the draw of
cycling, you know, to get youback on the bike and keep going
later on.
Did you stick with cycling asyou grew older?

Kari Loya (14:52):
Yeah, you know about that time, sixth grade this was
1982 and 84.
We were Eugene was veryprogressive and we were.
I competed in two triathlons,essentially Olympic distance
triathlons.
They weren't called Olympicdistance triathlons, they
weren't called Olympic distancetriathlons, they were just
called weird events that no oneknew what they were.
But did that in, so did someraces.

(15:13):
And then in eighth grade had anopportunity with my dad.
His parents had a cabin inWyoming in a place called
Pinedale and so we had.
It was my first three-day300-mile ride where my sister
and her friend drove sort of asag support, but my dad and I
did up through Jackson and thenup and around Yellowstone, the
loop and that was again thatjust lit my fire for exploration

(15:39):
on bikes Amazing.
Then high school college didsome organized rides Amazing.
Then high school college didsome organized rides.
At one point did a post-college, did a three-day, copied a back
roads itinerary and did athree-day tour with some buddies
through wine country in Napa,sonoma.
And then a big adventure that Idid was 1996, a college
roommate and I took two weeksand we biked from San Rafael,

(16:01):
crossed the Golden Gate, downthe one all the way down to
Tijuana and that was an amazingexperience.
In particular, it showed mejust what was most amazing are
the people that come up to youalong the way, and so that was
my first glimpse into the ride.
The scenery, that's all amazingcamaraderie with my buddy.
But it was more about wow, justsuch interesting conversations

(16:24):
along the way.
And then in 2001, I did anIronman triathlon in the spring
and I thought that summer my dadand I might do the Transamerica
.
We've talked about that forages.
I bought the maps to do it, andthen we ended up not doing that
.
We actually did a bike ride inColorado the Skyway in the South
of Durango to Uray, silveradoI'm trying to remember the name

(16:47):
of the loop 300 mile loop, fivedays, amazing.
But we didn't do the crosscountry trip.
And so since 2001, that hadbeen a pending trip that we
talked about.
And then it was years later, in2014, years later, 2015, when I
recognized there was this slimwindow, that we had this
opportunity.
If we didn't seize it, weprobably never would do it, and

(17:08):
so we seized it.

Tom Butler (17:09):
On this trip you were seizing it with your father
, Merv, and tell us about Merv,If someone asks you that
question.
What are the things that you'dlike to highlight about Merv?

Kari Loya (17:21):
Merv grew up in the Midwest and then moved out to
Oregon and just an incrediblefather, always, always involved
with me, a great listener,always athletic he would again I
mentioned it biking to workwhen that was not vogue would
always hike.
I'm involved in Oregonathletics as a fan, so I grew up

(17:42):
all around that.
We had many, many father-sonadventures together.
And so then fast forward.
We had just wonderfulrelationship, had been around
the world together and but in 20, it's about 2011, had been
diagnosed with early stageAlzheimer's and his father had
had passed away 25 years earlierfrom Alzheimer's.
And so we were monitoring thisand I lived alone and you could

(18:07):
see that there was, we'd seefriends and neighbors and family
were saying, hey, wow, you know, you got to watch out for Merv,
watch out for Merv and youcould see that he was struggling
more and more.
And so when this opportunitypopped up, it was going to be a
chance for me actually to spendwhat became 73 days straight

(18:27):
with Merv and see for myselfwhere was he with all of this,
with Alzheimer's, and that'swhat it was.
You know, I didn't know, and soI would be back once, a couple
of times a year, for a week,something like that, but I
wasn't getting to do day-to-daystuff, and so this gave me.
You know it was great.
We're going to try to dosomething that we've always

(18:49):
talked about.
We don't know whetherphysically we are going to be
able to do this, but it's alsogoing to be a chance for me.
I'm rarely going to be morethan 10 feet from him and I'm
going to see up close how he'sdoing, and that's exactly what
it was.
It was a chance to be togetherand I could see, okay, what

(19:09):
impact is Alzheimer's having.

Tom Butler (19:12):
It sounds like you had thought about this route
before, about taking a routedoing that journey before.
So by the time you got aroundto doing it, did you feel like
you were pretty set what routeyou want to do, or was there
still some thinking to do aboutwhat would be the best route for
this kind of trip?

Kari Loya (19:33):
Yeah, so.
So we we had.
Originally we had always talkedabout the trans America, and
the trans America for, for thosewho don't know was set up in
1976.
It was a organization thatlater became Adventure Cycling,
based in Montana, and it was tocelebrate the bicentennial of
the United States in 1976.
And this group of this eclecticgroup of intrepid cyclists

(19:57):
about a thousand many werecollege students, but there were
a lot of older folks and theystarted in Astoria, oregon, and
they wound their way east toYorktown, pennsylvania, crossing
10 States mapped is about 4,200miles.
And so we they had passed withina half mile of our house, and
that's how my dad had gotten theidea in his head long ago.

(20:20):
And so he said, oh okay, well,you know that that would be a
route.
But then we said, oh okay, well, you know that that would be a
route.
But then we said, while mostpeople go west to east, we would
like to go east to west for tworeasons Number one, it'd be a
homecoming, because we'd like toend in our glorious home state
of Oregon.
And then, number two, I thinkmost people agree that the
spectacular scenery of theUnited States is Rocky's West,

(20:43):
and so we wanted to save ourdessert for last.
We were pretty set on okay,we're going to do the
Transamerica, here's the routewe got to follow this.
What we didn't know and there,by the way, is that there's a
Northern Tier route and aSouthern Tier route.
We were going to do the classic, but what we didn't know is
just how far we could go, andthat was based on number one,
fitness, because my dad wasalways in good shape, I was

(21:05):
always in good shape.
But there's good shape and thenthere's lugging many, many
pounds up a mountain pass uh,very different.
And so we did kind of minimaltraining, but we figured you
know what, if we can get throughthe first few weeks, we will
get in shape and we will getstronger as we go.
But then there was also thevariable of Alzheimer's, and so

(21:27):
I needed to see, okay, how wasthat going to impact what we
were doing?
But but yeah, so we were.
We were set on a route.
The only question was okay, howfast can we do this?

Tom Butler (21:38):
I'm wondering about that decision to go east to west
.
As you look at that, do youhave any regret for that or do
you feel like that wasabsolutely the right decision?

Kari Loya (21:47):
No, absolutely the right decision.
That said, though, I think mostpeople also agree that the
hills of Virginia and Kentuckyare.
Many will argue that that'stougher than the hills out west.

Tom Butler (22:03):
Interesting.

Kari Loya (22:04):
They're shorter and they're steeper, and so when you
get out West, you get the 6%grade for a long time, but it's
a 6% grade and you just get somegrades that are steeper than
that unexpected and it and ityeah, it's tiring.

Tom Butler (22:20):
On the November 16th 2023 episode, I interviewed Jen
O'Dell, the executive directorof the American Cycling or the
Venture Cycling Association, andso it was a great conversation
and just really you know thatwhole genesis of venture cycling

(22:41):
and everything.
It's a great story and I thinkthat that you know lives on in
that trans America trail.

Kari Loya (22:50):
Amazing.
Yeah, and you know the founderof that, who was the CEO,
longtime CEO, and I'm forgettinghis name.
We met him when we went throughMissoula and you go there, and
one of the nice things they dois they take a photo of everyone
and he had done that, he hadbeen doing that for years, and
so he was.
One of the nice things they dois they take a photo of everyone
and he had done that, he hadbeen doing that for years, and
so he was one of the folks thatI then just turned around and
say, hey, tell me about yourself.

(23:10):
And he starts talking.
He and his wife were the secondand third person people to bike
from Patagonia to Alaska.
They appeared in.
National Geographic many yearsago and then after that got
involved with Adventure Cycling.

Tom Butler (23:27):
That is so cool.
Now I'm wondering you had donea lot of adventure like that.

Kari Loya (23:33):
you're um, you're constantly learning and you need

(23:53):
to adapt.
And so that, yeah, I, you know,went in and I had an Excel
sheet that has all the little,the oh, we'll go here the first
day, that, that, that, that that, and pretty quickly, by day two
, you know, you're like, okay,no, no, we, things have changed,
we've got to adapt.
We now know this instead ofthat.

(24:15):
Yeah, I mean.
So some of this you know.
And again, one of the things Italk about in the book is, you
know, adventure.
When you talk about adventure,adventure is there's kind of
certainty and predictability andpreparation.
And then, on the other end, tothe degree that you prepare a
little less, there's moreuncertainty.
That's adventure.
And there's more uncertainty,that's adventure.
And there's more risk, there'smore unknown, and some people

(24:37):
are not comfortable in that atall, and those are the ones that
should go to the back roads andthey know that.
You're going to sleep here,you've chosen your bed, you've
chosen your meal in advance.
All of that is predictable.
So you know it's 98% isprogrammed and there's 2% that,
oh, do we want the Chardonnay ordo we want the Rosé?
But for, and then you literallymeet people that have almost

(25:02):
entirely winged this, where, oh,and they've got their.
They have very minimal gear andthey're just out there, and so
for I've found, for me it's kindof like I seem to thrive when
it's about 70 or 80% preparationwhere I know I've got the
basics, so no one's going to dieor get seriously injured, but

(25:22):
there's this 30% that we don'tknow, we're going to have to
figure out, and I also find thatthen that's where kind of the
learning comes, because you'rehaving to deal with some
unexpected things, and that'swhere the joy comes from
overcoming that kind of thelearning comes, because you're
having to deal with someunexpected things, and that's
where the joy comes fromovercoming that kind of some
challenges that come up as aresult of that.
But everyone's got to find whattheir their sweet spot is for
adventure.
As I say that, do you thinkwhere would you put yourself on

(25:44):
the are you?
You know, 99 percent, I want itall programmed or I.

Tom Butler (25:50):
I think I am probably like 95 now.
If I was doing more of it youknow where I had maybe
experienced some challenges andovercome those challenges.
You know it could be that I'dbe more comfortable with about
80, but I'm pretty comfortablewith having things pretty
planned out.

Kari Loya (26:08):
Yeah, I think you know, I think that's such an
interesting point and I thinkyou probably have experienced
this your comfort with risk,with the unknown increases as
you do, small exposure to that,and so the 98%, and then you 95%
Boy, I did that, now I can goto a 92%, we'll figure it out
and you build your confidence inyour ability to adapt and

(26:32):
figure stuff out.

Tom Butler (26:33):
We've talked before on the podcast with people about
serendipity and I, you know,there is an element of that word
that, yeah, and I reallyunderstand the attraction to
that and at the same time I am aplanner, you know, and there is
that itinerary in your book, inthe appendix of your book, and
is that sounds like it's more ofkind of the final itinerary.

Kari Loya (26:56):
Correct.
That's, that's a okay.
Let's now go back and see wherewe ended up, and I think you
know, probably the most tellingstat is that on three and this
will push your comfort zone, butI'd say of three, three
quarters of of the 73 days, 72nights that we were out there,

(27:18):
we did not know where we wouldsleep as of 4 PM.
So, okay, we're going to writethis town or that town.
Okay, then, what are ouroptions we got?
Is there space, that, that,that?
Okay, where can we camp this?
And so, yeah, that I think thatthat you really have to be
comfortable, then, withuncertainty.

Tom Butler (27:38):
Now, and there's a bit of.
If you are going throughVirginia, I'm thinking you know,
and if you don't know whereyou're going to stay, there's
some options.
But I'm thinking that theEastern Oregon might be a
different.
You know setting where youcould go.

(27:58):
You know a hundred mileswithout finding some place to
stay.

Kari Loya (28:03):
Yeah, absolutely.
And so just to give you a senseof this, the, the.
You know we were trying to keepa tight budget but we did
everything from on the uh, lowend, sleeping literally on the
side of the highway, I think inEastern Oregon, probably.
I think it was literally ourfirst night in Eastern Oregon.
I was like, okay, there andliterally off the side of the

(28:24):
highway, a lone highway, um, soeverything from that, or behind
a gas station and just pitchinga tent and sleeping there to the
far other end.
Going through Yellowstone andrecognizing we had developed, my
dad really struggled when thetemperature dropped below and I
can't remember what it was, Ithink it was like 42 or
something.
We realized, okay, if it'sbelow 42 degrees, then he's not

(28:48):
going to sleep, he's, because hegets up to go to the bathroom
at too many times and then hegets cold and it's just an awful
.
So it was a deal breaker.
So early on we had determinedokay, if it's going to be 40, we
have to find a place to sleepindoors.
And so when we got toYellowstone, there was no
availability in like a campingarea and so there was one of the

(29:08):
I can't remember LakeYellowstone lodge.
So I think literally it waslike half our budget, you know,
$400 for one night.
And so so we splurged and we hada great time.
You know, that was a little the, some of the, the, the, the fun
mixed in, but we literally did$400 a night to sleeping behind
a gas station and sleeping onthe side of the highway.

(29:29):
And then we had in between wehad some very simple motels.
We had the warm showers wherepeople would open up their home.
We had strangers open up theirhome to us.
We had churches where you couldstay with churches and they
would open up things to cyclists.
So it was this wonderful mix ofarrangements and again, we got

(29:54):
a great night's sleep in all ofthese places.

Tom Butler (29:56):
Now we got connected because of warm showers and I'm
wondering if you could talkabout that.
I don't think you really knewmuch about warm showers when you
started out.

Kari Loya (30:07):
We didn't.
And again, talking about someof these other folks when we
were riding in, this is comingfrom the East into Pueblo,
colorado.
We ended up befriending thiscyclist who was actually biking
out to Eugene, our hometown, andhe was going out to because his
older brother was graduatingfrom the University of Oregon,
and so we spent a whole day justbiking with him and he was one

(30:30):
of those minimalists where hewas, I think, a sophomore in
college and he had just sort oflike, yep, I'm going to go out
and do this and not a lot ofgear.
But he told us that he wasstaying that night at a little I
think it was like a little goatfarm or sheep farm.
It's thanks to this placecalled warm showers, this
platform called warm showers,and so we ended up joining him.
There was space.
We stayed there, but that'swhat made us aware then of this

(30:54):
platform, and so we ended upusing it about four or five more
times and it was great.
Had we known about that earlier, we absolutely would have, you
know, uh, taken advantage ofthat.

Tom Butler (31:03):
I think there's like a self-selection aspect to warm
showers, where you know theseare people that just really
enjoy hosting cyclists, and so Isee that as a great thing.

Kari Loya (31:15):
Yeah, I mean, it was just in the conversations.
Again, these are reallyinteresting folks and you know
some of these people had cycledall over the place in Europe and
yeah, just interesting andcurious.
As soon as you are agreeing tohost a stranger in your home,
that says a lot about you.

Tom Butler (31:34):
Yeah, Now the book is just packed full of stories.
It's just this really funcombination of kind of the
dynamics of your trip and thenthese snippets.
You know, I just feel like youcould feel what it's like.
You're talking about theseconversations, that you have
people that you just bump intoand you start learning about

(31:57):
them.
The book is just packed full oflike those snippets and
everything, and it's interesting.
One story jumped out to me.
I don't really know why, butyou talk about a Merv speaking
Finnish in Missouri.
I wonder if you could share abit about that.

Kari Loya (32:14):
Yeah, so it actually.
It wasn't that he was speakingFinnish in Missouri, it was that
in Missouri, you know, therewere kind of two parts.
There are all theseconversations we have with folks
, but then as I tell the storyI'm reflecting on some of our
father, father, son experiences.
And in that chapter on MissouriI'm reflecting on how, when I

(32:37):
was 1984 and we had the goodfortune to drive down in our old
71 VW square back down to LAand go to the Olympics, la and
go to the Olympics, and while wewere at the Olympics we were
outside the Coliseum there andmy, my, my grandparents were
Finnish and my dad spoke Finnisha little rusty but now, but he

(33:05):
had spoken Finnish and lived inFinland.
But we were outside of theColiseum and there's all these,
you're hearing all theselanguages.
But these two gentlemen werestruggling to get some
information from one of thebooths and my dad then just
turned around and suddenly he'slike oh, who that by that?
And he started and he rattledit and suddenly these guys
brighten up so much that thereis someone who speaks Finnish
and they have this wonderfulconversation, he helps them get

(33:25):
what they need, et cetera.
But that it was one of thosemoments again, just, you know,
is a father, son.
My family was there, but thefather-son of just seeing your
dad do something that you didn'teven really think about or know
about, and then seeing you knowsort of a superpower, and then
seeing the impact that has onsomeone else and in this case it

(33:47):
was languages and the power oflanguages to make connection and
cross chasms, bridge gaps thatwas an early motivator for me to
learn languages, because theycan build bridges and more
discovery, more connections andyou know, and a bike journey is

(34:08):
exactly that it's an opportunityto connect with people and if
whether that's in this countryor someone else, but boy, if you
can take the time to learn alittle bit of another language,
it just it there's a wonderfulmeaningful connection that comes
out of that as you're ridingalong, and it is a unique moment

(34:30):
in your relationship with yourfather and there's some changes
that are happening.

Tom Butler (34:40):
You know, in cycling , I think there's some space to
think and process things, andyou know that you like stepped
out of the present and into thepast and able to really process
some memories.
Do you feel like that was areal aspect of this journey for
you?

Kari Loya (34:56):
Yeah, you know, I think, that you use just to
process when you're cycling orwhen you are, you know, hiking.
There's other forms, but whenyou're moving at that slow it's
a slower pace.
Yes, there's some times whereyou're going faster, but you
have time.
You have time and there'sstillness even though, yes,

(35:17):
you're in motion.
So, yeah, absolutely there's alot of time to reflect and to
think.
I think.
One would argue, I think, whenyou look at all sorts of studies
these days, that's whateveryone wants.

(35:48):
Everyone wants time to justslow down and process and have
some space and create was a veryintense first few weeks where
we didn't know if we would beable to pull this off.
Those first few weeks therewasn't a lot of stillness and
time and processing and it was,wow, going all out and having to

(36:10):
adapt as quickly, learn, makeadjustments.
Could we make this?
It was once we got to Coloradoand there's the Hoosier Pass
just outside of Breckenridge.
That's the highest point of theTransamerica, I think, it's
about 13,000 feet, and when wewent up and over that pass,
which was snow covered, I mean.

(36:30):
So I love this Merv with hisbalaclava, gloves and tights and
everything, this 75-year-oldguy with Alzheimer's biking up
that's surrounded by all thissnow and just it's like, okay,
if he can do it, we all can dothis.
But once we got there, Irealized we by then we'd learned
all of our lessons and we knewwe could do this.
You know, we'd learned all ofour lessons and we knew we could

(36:54):
do this.
You know, provided we weresmart.
And and from then on we haddefinitely more time, even for
our conversations.
It was less about logisticalthings and adaptation.
It was and it became more aboutenjoyment and processing and
reflection.

Tom Butler (37:07):
I'm wondering, you know you talked about, you know
about this guy in his 70s thatis making it over, and Murph was
fit.
He had stayed fit in his lifeit sounds like throughout his
life but people reacted to himin his age and I'm wondering if

(37:27):
you could talk about what youfeel that says about how we view
aging first on the.

Kari Loya (37:33):
You know, I guess the reaction yeah, it reminded me a
little bit of kind of Merv wasa little bit like when, on a
college campus, when someone hasa puppy and people come up and
oh, because I there, you knowI'm a cyclist but then they see
this older guy and he's thecenter of attention that I, sir,
do you mind me asking how oldare you?
And they would say, by golly,that is just a miracle.

(37:58):
And and there was this, thiswonderful appreciation for, you
know, him being out, doing whathe's doing and it's and it's not
just biking, I mean, the guy isbiking ended up being 4,700
miles, 4,600 miles across thecountry.
And so, yeah, I think there's alot of surprise.
I would argue, though, thatyou've, I think we're seeing in

(38:19):
the last 10 years, the last 10,15 years, really.
You're seeing longevity isbecoming a huge topic and
wellness and healthy aging.
You're just seeing so many morefolks modeling now and trying
to be active at any age, andthat's awesome.

(38:40):
There's all sorts of more tools, resources, other things, but
so many more examples now ofpeople being very active as they
age.

Tom Butler (38:50):
Yeah, and that's I mean, that's kind of my journey,
you know, and kind of the wholegenesis of cycling over 60 is
my discovery that wow, after 60,I can get stronger and it's a
lot better than what I thoughtit would be cycling over 60.

Kari Loya (39:07):
Yeah, I mean it's I, and I think part of that then is
it's boy.
It's so important to be.
Uh, you know, I mean it's I,and I think part of that then is
it's boy.
It's so important to be.
You know, in Spanish, be around, be around the good, and you'll
become one of them.
And it's just, who are wearound?
There are plenty of folks thatare, you know, just, they'll
watch TV and and eat and justkind of look out and.

(39:30):
But when you get out and you dosome of these things, you
discover a whole tribe of folksthat are doing these amazing
things, and that's, I think,it's just so important to expose
yourself to those folks thatremind us what we're capable of.

Tom Butler (39:44):
In your book there's just a lot of photos.
You know, pages and pages ofphotos.

Kari Loya (40:07):
You know pages and pages of photos and it's a truly
diverse mixture of people.
It's more accurate, it's a,it's a snapshot of rural America
, because the biggest city,where it was Pueblo, and then
the Eugene and Carbondale, butgenerally most of the trail is
we're going through towns ofpopulations of 10,000 or less,

(40:28):
but I think even within thatthere's just such America has.
The US, has such a rich rangeof characters and stories, and
so we had coal miners inKentucky, and then we have.
Then we're talking with afarmer in Kansas, then we're
talking with an entrepreneur inColorado, then we're talking
with an illegal immigrant who isworking in a restaurant and is

(40:49):
proud and doing karaoke nightvery popular but crossed over,
you know, paying a coyote, andthen we're talking with someone
who's running across the country, and so on and so on, and you
get just this incrediblerichness.
And so I hope it.
You know, seeing that, I hope,number one, folks appreciate the
richness of our people.
And then, number two, I hope itmotivates them to get out and

(41:13):
explore, and a lot of the folks,one of those amazing things
when you're talking with people,they come up and they start by
hey, where are you going?
They're asking about you, butpretty quickly if you flip it
around and you say, hey, tell meabout you, and they quickly I
mean you don't even know thesefolks and very quickly they are

(41:34):
sharing their dreams.
I've always wanted to or oh, itwas amazing, we once did.
They share their dreams.
They also share their tragedies.
You know very serious accidentsand I always went, but then
this happened and it just youknow.
I hope in hearing those storiesit makes us, makes folks seize

(41:54):
the day, go after what they wantto go after and when they do, I
hope they'll go with an openmind and listen to people that
they meet along the way.

Tom Butler (42:02):
I love it.
One of the subtitle sectionsyou have is capture the soul of
America.

Kelly Butler (42:09):
Yeah.

Tom Butler (42:10):
And can you talk about that?
What?
What did it mean to you tocapture the soul of America?

Kari Loya (42:29):
There is also at the core.
You know, with very fewexceptions, every single person
that we encountered is curious.
They want to help out.
They're nice If they can help,they do.
They have their dreams.
You know, I think America leansoptimistic compared to so many
other places.

(42:49):
And you know, and when you gothrough that you also man, if
you, if you pay attention tosocial media and media, you
would think that we are, youknow, the oh my gosh, we are so
different.
But the reality is those arefocusing on this group over here
, on this extreme over here.
Most of us have a lot in commonand we've got differences here
and there, have a lot in commonand we've got differences here

(43:13):
and there, but you know, we haveso much more in common than is
portrayed and it's fun to seethat.

Tom Butler (43:20):
I think that's well said and I think that's a real
value.
You know, we almost need tohave an assignment to go cycling
through America and you knowand get connected to it, because
it's it's there's a real valuethere of being connected to it.

Kari Loya (43:38):
Yeah, I mean, you know and and the other, you know
the thing, you know whetherit's there.
I think I've seen this out inDC.
You know, historically, um,folks on the left and the right
and and and politics would oftenhave dinner together and and
that's.
That's happened less, much lessover the last 20 years.
But when you are on a bike, youare vulnerable, you're open.

(43:59):
When you're in a car, you candrive across America.
There's this steel box thatshields you from connecting with
people in a meaningful way.
Even when you're on amotorcycle, that's often
intimidating to folks and somepeople might come up, but most
will not.
When you are on a bike, you arevulnerable and people come up
and want to know what you'redoing and there's an opportunity

(44:22):
to connect and that'sconnecting regardless of their
background, regardless of howthey voted, and you discover all
of these things that you havein common.
Yeah, the classic if we couldbreak bad more bed more often,
well, that's the starting pointto then try to discuss some of
the differences, but so much wehave in common that's cool.

Tom Butler (44:41):
How about just the pace that you're going?
Do you think there's somethingspecial about discovery at the
speed of cycling?

Kari Loya (44:50):
yeah, it's.
You know it's funny.
I was thinking originally oneof the titles or subtitles is
going to be something aboutAmerica at 12 miles per hour and
you kind of average it out.
We went faster at times andthen even slower at times and
off our bike, but about 12 milesan hour and yeah, it's it's,

(45:10):
you have time.
You know, one of those initialquestions that I asked myself as
we started this journey wasokay, we're biking, what am I
going to collect?
And so I started thinking okay,I'm going to collect, you know,
you're in Virginia, you see, oh, let's start collecting all
those wonderful scriptures andmessages they have outside of

(45:30):
the churches.
That says, like, you know,don't trust Google, trust the
Bible and you know things like.
And you go across like, okay,we can collect those.
You know these aphorisms.
Or oh, wow, no, there's,there's those.
All these really, um, artisanal, painted, uh, mailboxes or Nate
mailbox, like, oh, we cancollect that.
And so I'm thinking through whatare all these things ultimately

(45:52):
ended up collecting the storiesof people we met and I felt
that that was you know, but, butyou have time, and so you know
what are you thinking about.
There were some folks that Iknew it's interesting.
We came across a couple othercyclists.
They would listen to audiobooks and okay, you can do that
and in fact, I.
I in fact did that in Idaho andit was very helpful that it was

(46:16):
a tool Gawande on being mortaland that that actually provided
a very helpful framework for aconstructive conversation with
my dad about Alzheimer's.
But, yeah, it's, it's when youhave time, you know how do you
want to use that time?
That's beautiful, it's the giftof time.

Tom Butler (46:31):
And I think there's a special the world going by and
you've got some time.
I think there is a special wayof interacting with the
environment when you're goingthrough it on a bicycle that
kind of, to me, optimizes thattime.

Kari Loya (46:48):
I can compare.
I literally just was last weekin Big Bend.
I was chaperoning this groupand his trip there, and as part
of it we were on ATVs.
And I've been around ATVs.
I've never been on an ATV, notreally my thing.
But then I was just thinking,you know, we did two hours
around kind of the desert thereon ATVs and, okay, got us around

(47:09):
, but boy, I was wishing that Ihad been on a bike.
And why was that?
Because, number one, there wereabout eight of us, 10 of us.
We could only talk with eachother.
When we stopped every 20, 30minutes, we couldn't say, hey,
check that.
Hey, what do you think aboutthat?
Number two, the whole timethere is a motor, so it's.

(47:32):
I felt like I was mowing thelawn and so you're hearing a
motor.
Number three, that motor scaresaway wildlife.
And then, number four, you'vegot this helmet on.
So, even though my body wasfeeling the wind and feeling
this connection, the sound wasmuffled and my head vision was
slightly limited.

(47:52):
But my head was not feeling thebreeze, I was not feeling the
breeze on my cheeks, I was notsmelling the smells.
And so when you are on a bike,or on foot for that matter.
You just feel you are much morein communion with nature.

Tom Butler (48:09):
Yeah, I love that word communion.
I think that's a good word forit.
Yeah, I love that wordcommunion.
I think that's a good word forit.
I've heard you on a podcasttalk about you're thinking about
maybe a trip with your daughter.

Kari Loya (48:23):
Yeah.

Tom Butler (48:24):
And I'm wondering.
It seems like there's a realdifference there about planning,
thinking about a trip with yourdaughter and a trip with Murph.
Can you kind of unpack that alittle bit?

Kari Loya (48:38):
Yeah, I appreciate the question and well.
So I'm someone who seizes theday, so I can talk now
retroactively, because lastsummer my daughter and I we as
part of a European, a daddydaughter European adventure, we
did 12 days hiking the Tour deMont Blanc, and so that's
starting in Chamonix, france,going to Italy and then going up
to Switzerland.
My daughter is not acompetitive athlete the way I

(49:00):
was.
She'll do things, but it's not,that's not her thing.
And but when we talked aboutthis, she was excited about the
cultural adventure of all ofthis and the beautiful, you know
, eating as many pan de chocolatand croissants as she could.
But we spent six we're based inHouston and spent six months.
There are no mountains, hills,there's not the training ground

(49:23):
that Oregon has to train for theAlps.
So what did we do?
We did the best we could.
On Sundays we would get upearly and we would go to a
parking garage near us and wewould go up and down the six and
a half flights of stairs with abackpack and we did that for

(49:43):
hours on end and we built up.
We built up from just you know,the first time it was like 30
minutes and we built up overtime.
And so that was a wonderfuladventure, teaching her to build
up for something over time.
And so that was a wonderfuladventure, teaching her to build
up for something.
And then, when we got over there, sort of the same thing 70%
maybe it was 80% was prepared,but there was this 20% unknown,

(50:06):
and it was funny because it wastalking about Merv as being sort
of the puppy that capturesattention, the old guy.
It was exactly the opposite,where this time, no one cared
about me.
They're like hey, who are you?
You're so young, what are youout here doing?
This is amazing, tell me allabout you.
And once again, there was the.
There's the physical challenge,and that was great, and the you
know, we did this and weclimbed that.
And then there's the naturalbeauty.

(50:27):
But, hands down, the best valueout of that trip was exposing
her to all of these amazingpeople that are out there doing
the same thing.
And so she had.
We would have family stylemeals and some of these refuges,
and she's with an Israeli,she's with some Canadians, she's
with some French, she's withsome Spaniards, mexican, and

(50:50):
just an awesome chance for herto see, you know, a glimpse of
the world.

Tom Butler (50:57):
And what a way to be shaped.
You know that will carry withher the rest of her life.
So, that's fantastic.

Kari Loya (51:06):
Yeah, and you know, I said, okay, what's the most
important thing you've learnedout of that?
And a simple answer, which is Ican do hard things, and isn't
that beautiful.
That's what we want the nextgeneration to believe.
Yeah, things are tough andthat's okay, because you can do
hard things.

Tom Butler (51:25):
I love it.
To me, the book listening toyou speak here, talking to you,
you obviously have part of youridentity is an educator.
And what does an educator'smindset look like?

Kari Loya (51:45):
You know, when I was heading a school in the
Caribbean and I actually, youknow, there's head of school but
I actually one of my fun littletitle I put was chief learning
officer.
And you know, I think greatteachers are just curious.
They're curious about the worldand they're curious about
everything around them, and sothey are learning and what

(52:06):
they're doing is they'remodeling learning, they're
exploring their learning, andthen they're turning around and
trying to share that with others.
I mean, the book is an exampleof that.
It's I'm going out and I'mexploring, I'm listening to all
these folks, and then I'm tryingto share that, to educate
others.
And then you know, and then,and then there's another part
which is great educators, thennot only are they doing that,

(52:29):
but then, when they're, it'smore than just sharing.
You're now trying to empowerothers.
And in order to empower others,you have to see where are they
on ability?
You know, simple are they alevel one, a level two, level
three, whatever the skill?
And then they have to adjustand adapt and say, okay, don't
give them a level eight, thisperson's a level three, okay,

(52:51):
what can we do to get them to alevel four?
And so in this case, you knowit was.
I had very good training towork with my dad to adapt and
see that you know, okay, we'retrying to.
No, we've got to quickly adjustand we've got to adapt to the
level that we're at, and so Ithink that's something else that
is very helpful.
You know, educators say, okay,we are where we are, what's the

(53:12):
next level for us to get to?
Scaffolding is kind of a fancyterm people use.

Tom Butler (53:20):
I think you maybe have embraced this throughout
your life.
I'm kind of reading through thelines and saying that, but I'm
wondering about the aspect offun.
Did you feel like you learnedanything about the importance of
fun on this trip?

Kari Loya (53:39):
Yeah, at the end of the day, I believe it's got to
be fun.
In fact, I just read a quotehere last week what's the secret
to life?
Enjoy it.
It's so true Period life enjoyit.
That is so true period.
So yeah, and you know, and Ithink of, I think of the early
days of the adventure races.

(53:59):
This is before um, the ecochallenge and stuff.
They had the ray goulart andthat was the one of the.
I think that was the originaladventure race and I remember
reading this is back in like the90s.
This is before leo burn herb.
It was a mark burnett had setup equal challenge and all that,
but that the, the, the winningteam was always the french and
the americans were there doingit and they and they there was.

(54:21):
I remember this vivid portraitthat that a reporter had shared,
where in the american camp theywere all they all had like, was
it moleskin?
They're doing all this stuff.
They're eating all these cliffbars and these little potions
with formula, and then they gointo the French camp and they're
eating chocolate and drinkingwine and smoking cigarettes and

(54:43):
music.
They're all that and the Frenchwere winning all the time.
And so I'm not necessarilyendorsing all of that, including
the cigarettes.
But the point is, when you havefun, you get a lot of energy,
and so, to the degree that youcan mix in as much fun as you
can, man, we can white knucklestuff and that's great, but at

(55:06):
the end of the day, are wehaving fun?
And my dad modeled that reallywell.
And so I think of my dad andkind of the three things that
work hard, be nice.
And so, you know, I think mydad kind of the three things
that work hard, be nice.
And by be nice, it really meanslistening, listen really well
to other people, make them feelshared, make them feel valued,
but then have fun.
And so all along we were able tomix in while, yeah, again,

(55:28):
while we had a, you know, afterthose first three really
challenging weeks to see, youknow, would we be able to pull
this off?
Well, our first critical stopon day 21 was in shoot, I'm
forgetting the name of the townin Kentucky, but it's the
capital of bourbon, and so wehad a bourbon tasting and a nice
meal.
And when we were back onMcKenzie Pass, we had a.

(55:51):
You know, we made sure we hadbeen, uh, bought, I'd bought
wine and chocolate and had alittle French picnic up top.
And uh, yeah, so that I I'm,I'm always trying to figure out
how we can have fun.

Tom Butler (56:03):
Well, through the power of the internet.
Uh, barston, kentucky, I think,is that, yeah, bardstown.

Kari Loya (56:12):
Bardstown.
Bardstown, kentucky.
That is the bourbon capital ofthe world.
Very cool place.

Tom Butler (56:18):
I wonder if there's a reason why the Trans-American
Trail goes through that town.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kari Loya (56:26):
I suppose if you flip it around, if you're going west
to east, that becomes sort ofthe start of the celebration.
Yeah, there you go, althoughremember Kentucky and Virginia
have some tough hills so don'tcelebrate too soon.

Tom Butler (56:42):
You've done something that not too many
people do, and that's completethis journey.

Kari Loya (56:49):
I'm interested about equipment but I know that would

(57:10):
be a long list.
If you're going to talk aboutthat, what?
When I take mine into the shop,everyone's like, oh my God,
you've got a classic there.
But it would.
The bikes were great.
We've all had the same bike.
Um, we also had Ortliebpanniers, which were fantastic,
um, and I'm assuming those arestill being made.
Everything else, things shift,things change.
I know gear is just.
It's constantly changing, and Iguess the point I would make is

(57:34):
once again, you've got thisrange of folks.
You've got a range of folksthat have every single little
thing and every little devicefor every little purpose, and
you've got some folks that arejust out there with kind of a
t-shirt and shorts, and both arehaving amazing journeys, and

(57:56):
and and, and both are havingamazing journeys.
So, if you, you know, I thinkit's helpful to look at gear.
What I see often more oftenthan not, though is people who
really get into gear.
They get into gear as much asthey get into the cycling part
of it, and so that's okay.
Recognize that, but understandyou don't need the gear for an
amazing cycling experience.

Tom Butler (58:15):
Yeah, good, good advice, good comments.
I'm wondering if there you knowyou, you do quite a bit of
speaking about your journey andabout your dad.
I'm wondering if there are somethings that you'd really like
people to to know aboutAlzheimer's.

Kari Loya (58:32):
I think the most important thing and this is
whether it's Alzheimer's oranything else, which is what I
found originally was it was fastbecoming a world of no's.
So a world of no's?
Oh no, Merv can't and can'ts.
No, you can't do that, youcan't do this, you can't do it,
and everyone's focused on thiskind of these limitations.

(58:55):
So when we even broached thispossibility that we were going
to suddenly try to bike acrossthe country whoa, no, how can
you?
There was mild shock as aunderstatement, but what you see
is people focus on what peoplecan't do.
And what happens when you focuson what they can do?

(59:16):
So Merv was incapable of at anypoint in the trip or after the
trip, of telling you on any oneof those 73 days.
He could not tell you that westarted in town A and ended in
town B.
However, if you guide him andyou point him in the right

(59:38):
direction, what can he do?
He can pedal and he can keeppedaling and keep pedaling and
keep pedaling and suddenly hehas gone 4,600 miles across the
country as a 75-year-old withearly stage Alzheimer's.
So just yeah, I think the mostimportant thing, whether it's
Alzheimer's or anything else, beaware of how are you viewing

(01:00:01):
things and are you focused onwhat someone can do more than
what they can't do?

Tom Butler (01:00:06):
It's been a few years since you did the trip and
you've processed it in numerousways, including the book, and
you used the phrase residualvalue of adventure and I'm
wondering if you can talk aboutthat.
Do you feel like you carry thatresidual value everywhere?

Kari Loya (01:00:26):
Absolutely.
When anyone takes a trip doesany sort of adventure.
You know, for us there werethese 73 days, 73 days of
adventure, highs, lows, all ofthat, but overall amazing
feeling.
Once it's done, you continue tocarry with you every month,

(01:00:48):
every year, fun memories.
You also, as you move forward,you will have experiences where
suddenly you get insight fromsomething that happened during
that adventure and so kind ofthe adventure is coming and
teach.
Oh yeah, this is like that.
And you make these connections.

(01:01:08):
And then further, when you havean adventure, when you move
forward, you meet people.
And what is the fun of meetingpeople?
Usually you're trying to findsomething in common.
And when you have had anadventure, there is with a range
of people, et cetera you arejust a little bit more likely to

(01:01:31):
find something to connect withwith a person in front of you.
Yeah, so, literally every day.
In many ways I'm finding, as aresult of things on that trip
I'm pulling out oh, this is like, it's almost like your.
You know your, your cursor onyour, your mouse on your, um,
you know one of the uh, aninteractive map or something is
as you.
Oh yeah, we can click on thisand now I can bring this up.

(01:01:55):
Oh, we can click on this, um,depending on who is in front of
you, and that's just what.
What a gift.

Tom Butler (01:02:00):
Well, kari, this has been a gift to me talking to
you and I really appreciate youtaking the time to do this and I
appreciate the book and the thesnippets of people's lives, and
it's just the snippets ofpeople's lives and it's just.
I think you've done anexcellent job of capturing that
journey at a really special timein the relationship with your

(01:02:22):
dad, and thank you so much.

Kari Loya (01:02:25):
I appreciate the opportunity to be here.
What's?
Let me ask you one questionwhat on a cycling front?
What's something that is hasgot you excited, or what's the
next thing that I go?
What would you, what would youlike to do?

Tom Butler (01:02:38):
Well, I could talk about this for a while, but last
season the culminating eventfor the season was gonna be me
riding across the state ofWashington, and on the first day
the bursitis in my knee startedacting up, and by the end of
the second day both of my kneeswere just screaming and so it

(01:03:01):
felt like kind of a face plant.
After you know nine months oframping up to this trip and I
kind of processed that in anepisode after the trip about you
know what disappointment islike and things like that.
But you know, so there's.
There's a part of me that wantsto do that, that wants to go

(01:03:21):
revisit that, maybe do that witha different route than I had
chosen.
But there's just so many, somany things in the podcast.
You know, hearing from otherpeople there's the list just
gets longer and longer all thetime about experiences I'd like
to have.

Kari Loya (01:03:38):
What a great problem.

Tom Butler (01:03:40):
Yeah, that's right, that's right.

Kari Loya (01:03:43):
Yeah, thanks for sharing.

Tom Butler (01:03:44):
Yeah, and again, thank you so much for being here
and I hope that you find a lotof adventures on the bike to
come and with family andeverything.

Kari Loya (01:03:55):
We'll look forward to crossing paths somewhere in the
Cascades or something.
Hey, tom, all right.

Tom Butler (01:04:00):
Sounds good, take care now.

Kari Loya (01:04:02):
Okay, thanks, tom, bye-bye.

Tom Butler (01:04:13):
I can't help but ask myself if I would have had the
courage to do what Kari and Mervdid.
Maybe, more than anything else,I would have to believe in my
ability to handle the unknown.
The main obstacle here is thatI see myself as just too
inexperienced to fly by the seatof my pants.
Of course, an important conceptis whether or not serendipity
yields higher qualityexperiences.

(01:04:34):
I certainly know a lot ofpeople that believe that is true
.
Maybe I should investigate thatconcept further.
Maybe I need to just head outon a bike adventure with very
little planning and see if itmakes for a more memorable trip.
Now, to do that, I would wantto have somebody to share the
journey with, ideally someonereally good at problem solving.
I'm intrigued enough by thisidea to at least have some

(01:04:55):
conversations about it.
Whether you're ready to launchout on a cross-country trip with
a minimum amount of planning,or you're happy with well-known
local routes, I hope you'refilling your cycling ventures
with fun, and remember age isjust a gear change.