Crossing Bridges with Lisa Watts

Send Me a Text Message

Ever feel like getting started is the hardest part? Join host Tom Butler on this episode of Cycling Over Sixty as he shares his personal journey of finally kicking off a new meal program, the initial hurdles he faced, and the interesting results he's already noticing. Then, prepare to be inspired by Lisa Watts, author of "Crossing Bridges: What Biking Up the East Coast Taught Me about Life After 60." Lisa recounts some of the unforgettable moments and profound life lessons learned during her incredible two-month cycling adventure with a close friend. Tom and Lisa's conversation beautifully underscores the exciting possibilities for adventure and growth at any age.

Links

Lisa's Bike Life Interview: youtu.be/fvOiJqi1uqk?si=KbuC5ST_bVpbueN6

Thanks for Joining Me!

Consider becoming a member of the Cycling Over Sixty Strava Club! www.strava.com/clubs/CyclingOverSixty

Cycling Over Sixty is also on Zwift. Look for our Zwift club!

Please send comments, questions and especially content suggestions to me at [e-mail]

Follow and comment on Cycling Over Sixty on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cyclingoversixty/

Show music is "Come On Out" by Dan Lebowitz. Find him here : lebomusic.com

Episode Transcript

Tom Butler (00:04):
This is the Cycling Over 60 podcast, season three,
episode 28, crossing Bridgeswith Lisa Watts, and I'm your
host, tom Butler I finallystarted a new meal strategy this

(00:25):
week.
This attempt to change myeating has revealed a clear
aspect of my journey to stayhealthy.
I really don't like messingwith my meals, so while I plan
to make this change the thirdweek in February, I'm only now
moving forward with it.
The idea is to try to see ifthis way of eating could improve
my blood glucose levels is totry to see if this way of eating

(00:47):
could improve my blood glucoselevels.
You might ask why the delay,and it's hard for me to answer
that question, but I see atleast three reasons.
First, meals are more difficultwith this new plan.
I've mentioned before that I'msomeone who doesn't mind
repetition with meals andprimarily I want them to be easy
.
For this program, I do have mealplans.
The creators of the programobviously believe that people

(01:09):
want variety and that's probablytrue for most people and that
means that they're switchingthings up every day in the plan.
So that complicates everythingfrom shopping to meal prep, and
the meals have a lot ofingredients, so that means a lot
of meal prep time.
To be fair, they do structuremeals so that there can be a
good amount of advancedpreparation, but even with that

(01:31):
it is a lot more work than whatI've been used to.
Also, I've gotten used to twomeals a day and this adds a
third meal.
Combining everything together,my meal planning and preparation
now has gotten far morecomplicated.
Thing together, my mealplanning and preparation now has
gotten far more complicated.
I'm five days in now and I'mhoping that as time goes on, I
will develop a routine thatmakes it easier.

(01:52):
Another factor is that I wasn'texcited about this new plan
because I'm losing foods that Ireally enjoy.
For the last year and a halfI've been eating foods that are
high in fat.
I don't eat meat, but I lovedairy and I also love eggs, so
cutting these things out makesmeals less appealing to me.
I definitely have madedifficult changes in my diet

(02:13):
before, and usually after awhile my taste preferences do
change, and that's a hope I havehere.
The way this program works isthere is a six-week period that
is designed to reset insulinsensitivity.
It's possible that once I getthrough the six weeks, food
choices might get a little morebroad and I will find things

(02:33):
that I really like.
The truth is, the recipes theyprovide are pretty good and some
are very good, but I enjoybutter and eggs and yogurt and
other things that I'll have toleave behind if I buy into this
concept.
Another problem with eating lowfat like they suggest in this
program.
For me, fat is something thathelps with hunger and I see that

(02:53):
as a major factor with thesuccess I've had before in
losing weight.
Once I started eating high-fat,high-protein meals a year and a
half ago, I really startedseeing a change with my ability
to burn fat.
What I was doing over a yearand a half wasn't exactly a keto
diet, but I did eat a lot offat and I feel that my body got

(03:15):
used to burning fat.
Now that I have to cut that fatout, my body is sending me
really strong messages that Ineed to eat and obviously that's
uncomfortable.
I've come to expect that I willbe hungry if I expect to be
healthy, and I have ways ofdistracting myself when I'm
hungry, and that's just part ofthe journey for me.
Sometimes my body gives mehunger signals because it thinks

(03:38):
I need calories when I don'treally, and other times I'll be
hungry because I'm fasting.
So I've just come to acceptthat a certain amount of time
being hungry is a consequence ofyears of poor dietary choices
that trained my body to eat thewrong way.
I do fully expect that once mybody adjusts to not having fat
as a primary energy source, thata lot of the hunger signals

(04:01):
will go away.
So I just need to get throughto that time.
But I also don't expect all ofthe hunger to go away.
Finally, I've been ambivalentabout making the change.
From a conceptual level, the bigdifference of this meal is that
it is aimed to keep fat under15% of calories for the day.
The opinion of the creators ofthis approach is that fat is the

(04:23):
major culprit of insulinresistance.
If you search the literature,you'll find many studies that
conclude that a low-fat dietdoesn't impact insulin
resistance.
The authors of this programbelieve that the studies that
don't link low-fat to improvedinsulin sensitivity are flawed,
and that flaw is that thepercentage of the fat in the
diets of the study participantsweren't low enough.

(04:44):
I have many, many questionsabout their assumptions.
First, I fully believe thatketogenic diets are effective at
reversing type 2 diabetes.
Anyone who questions this needsto get familiar with the work
being done at Duke University byDr Eric Westman.
He has been using low-carb,ketogenic diets in a clinical
setting for over 20 years.
It is true that we are stilllearning a lot about how to

(05:06):
improve utilization of bloodglucose, and I'm open to the
notion that a diet very low infat can make some positive
changes at the muscle cell level, and that is the level I'm most
interested in.
Some of you might be thinkingthat our bodies need fat, and
that is absolutely true.
To eat a diet that is under 15%fat means being very strategic

(05:27):
to make sure and get highquality fats, so the meal plans
include things like avocados,flax seeds and nuts to help
ensure good fat intake.
Another aspect to think aboutis getting enough protein, so
the meal includes very low fatprotein options like quinoa,
which is a complete proteinsource.
My taste buds aren't happy withmy choice to eat this way, but

(05:48):
unfortunately, if my taste budsgot to choose my meals, about
95% of my calories would come inthe form of pizza.
One of the really positiveaspects of this meal is that not
all carbohydrates are the same.
While a gummy bear is a low-fat, high-carbohydrate source, so
is four cups of mixed berries,and I would rather have berries

(06:08):
than gummy bears.
So with this meal plan you getto eat a lot of berries and I do
like that.
So, given all of my hesitationabout starting this diet, here's
something that is veryimportant.
I've been doing the diet forfive days.
Only at this point, but whatyou would want to have happen in
those five days seems to behappening in my case.
Plus, I haven't been 100%faithful to the program Not huge

(06:32):
deviations, but enough that Iprobably haven't experienced the
full benefit of their plan.
Certainly, one of thereasonable explanations of what
is happening right nowmetabolically for me is that my
cells are getting more insulinsensitive and that means it's
really probable that the programis delivering as promised.
From everything I'm seeing now,it makes total sense for me.

(07:11):
To Lisa Watts, the author ofCrossing Bridges what Biking Up
the East Coast Taught Me AboutLife After 60.
Go check out Warm Showers atwarmshowersorg.
They provide a great servicefor cyclists who are looking for
places to stay while touring.
I really enjoyed Lisa's writingand was very intrigued by her
journey.

(07:31):
It's always interesting to meto hear about how individualized
traveling by bike is.
Everyone has a differentexperience.
I'm so happy that Lisa took thetime to come on the podcast.
Here's our conversation.
I've been excited for thisconversation ever since I got a
hold of my next guest's book.
Thank you, lisa Watts, forjoining me.

Lisa Watts (07:52):
Thank you, tom, I'm excited too.

Tom Butler (07:55):
You are the author of Crossing Bridges.
What Biking Up the East CoastTaught Me About Life After 60.
I'm grateful that Michelle atWarm Showers connected us.
That was awesome of her and Iwant to encourage listeners to
also pull up your interview onthe Warm Showers Bike Life
podcast.
It is episode 110, posted onNovember 24th of last year, and

(08:17):
I'll put a copy of that in theshow notes.
Could we start by having youshare your earliest memory of
the bicycle?

Lisa Watts (08:26):
Oh sure I'd love to.
I was a kid in Atlanta, georgia, the youngest of five, and we
had an awesome concrete drivewayand my brother, just older than
me, would be out there shootingbaskets and I would bike in
circles on the driveway.
I was a big reader, so I livedin my head and I would pull a

(08:49):
wagon behind me and I was eitherdriving a covered wagon or I
was driving a train, but it wasalways kind of.
I mean, to this day, bikingmeans freedom.
I can take off, you know.
So when I got a little older,freedom I can take off, you know
.
So when I got a little older, Icould ride to a public golf

(09:09):
course clubhouse and take Idon't know a nickel and buy
peanut M&Ms.
That was incredibly empowering.
We didn't have candy at myhouse.

Tom Butler (09:20):
Gotcha, I love that and I just love that picture of
the bike unlocking a world ofimagination.
You know being out on it,that's cool.
You wrote a book about growingup in Ohio and I wonder if you

(09:40):
could talk a bit about that bookand if you think your desire to
explore is rooted in yourupbringing.

Lisa Watts (09:48):
That's a great question and thank you for
knowing about Good Roots.
So it's actually an anthologythat I proposed and collected
Famous, you know, Pulitzer Prizewinning authors.
A bunch of them grew up in Ohio.
I was born in Cleveland, mymother's hometown, but we left

(10:25):
when I was three.
But I found myself back therein my 40s raising our kids.
My husband took a job at asmall liberal arts school in
Ohio and I started thinking whatit meant for our kids you know,
because I grew up on the EastCoast what does it mean for them
to grow up in a small Ohiocollege town?
And then I started realizinghow many writers I respected did
.
So I created this anthology andI think the answer to my
question is related to yourquestion.
I think it's a very groundedupbringing and it allows you to
dream big, because all of thesewriters someone noted about Good
Roots later, yeah, but they allleft Ohio, but they had the

(10:48):
grounding to just dream and Ithink that's my takeaway, yeah.

Tom Butler (10:52):
Gotcha, were there influences in your family that
kind of unlocked that capacityto dream in you?

Lisa Watts (11:03):
I always describe it as a very suburban childhood.
We lived in the suburbs ofAtlanta and Baltimore and then
Boston.
Finally, by the time I got tohigh school, kind of nondescript
, and my parents were goodparents but nothing terribly
interesting about their livesand again, I was a reader.
I think I just dreamed of doingmore exotic, interesting things

(11:25):
.
So I should probably credit mymother.
She was a reader and she tookme to the library early on.
So you know, maybe she didindirectly feed some of that,
but mostly it was an itchinessof kind of like is this really
all there is?
I would like to see and trymore.

Tom Butler (11:43):
Yeah, well, shout out to public libraries, you
know for unlocking that let'sprotect them.

Lisa Watts (11:48):
Absolutely.

Tom Butler (11:49):
Crossing Bridges was never going to be a guidebook
to a cycling route, you said,and so I'm wondering if you can
share your thoughts aboutcapturing that journey to share
with others.

Lisa Watts (12:03):
Yeah, that's a great question and it's complicated
by a couple of things.
One at the time that I took thetrip two months up the East
Coast Greenway, I was actuallyworking for the nonprofit, the
East Coast Greenway Alliance, astheir communications manager,
so it had been my job to tellthe story of the Greenway and

(12:24):
point people to differentstretches of it, the safer ones
especially, I think.
To me they were two veryseparate things.
There was my professional workand of course, it would help for
me to see all of the route, butI was really doing this very
selfishly, for myself.
It was something that I haddreamed of for a long time and I

(12:45):
posted on Facebook seven yearsago nightly, you know, three or
four paragraphs right up of theday.
I took the trip with my friendDee and she and I started to
build this following of ourfollowers and her partner, sally
, was sharing it on her Facebookand that was kind of fun that
we had these people cheering uson and, you know, telling us how

(13:07):
great we were.
But they were truly following.
Like I just heard the other daya woman's like sometimes you
didn't post till 10 o'clock atnight and what that was was kind
of the live time story ofwatching these two women make
their way up the coast on a twomonth trip, and so there was a
tension Is it going to be okay?
Are they going to run intoanything?

(13:27):
But afterwards, when I thoughtI wanted to write a book about
it, that tension's gone.
We had a great two-month trip.
There were no amazing hurdlesthat we overcame, neither of us
was getting over a terribleillness or anything.
I realized that story itselfdidn't amount to much, and my

(13:48):
journalism professor, who I wasstill writing with back then
from 30 years before, said well,you're writing a guide to the
East Coast Greenway and that'snever what I wanted to write
about.
I wanted to tell my stories,and the other complication is I
have this bias that I thinkbicycle tourists should be
somewhat resourceful.

(14:09):
They shouldn't need somebody tohold their hands and show them
where every public toilet is andyou know where, every place
where you can stop and getcoffee.
I feel like some of it shouldbe an adventure, and so, even
though I'm actually doing anupdated guide for the East Coast
Greenway Alliance aboutConnecticut and Rhode Island,
I'll tell you so much, but Iwant you to find some of it

(14:31):
yourself.
So I think I'm sure I've helpedbring more awareness of this
route, the East Coast Greenway,but I don't really want to walk
people through it mile by mile.
I'd rather tell stories.
It's more interesting to me.

Tom Butler (14:47):
I like that, and I've had people talk about
serendipity before that a tripthat's too planned, you don't
have the opportunity to reallyhave some experience that you
didn't even know that you wantedto have, and so I like that

(15:08):
element of what you're talkingabout 100%, although we did kind
of map out our accommodations.

Lisa Watts (15:15):
I basically took, you know, the map of the
Greenway and broke it up intoroughly 60 mile blocks and tried
to figure out accommodationswhich we had agreed.
We weren't going to camp, wewere just too old to camp.
So we had a fair amount offriends and family along the
route you know it's East Coastbut then also some Airbnbs and

(15:37):
motels and we 95% stuck to thatspreadsheet.
But a friend of Dee's made funof us.
You know he had ridden acrossthe country and probably in
other countries and said wow, aspreadsheet.
That's really an adventure,isn't it?
But what happened from themorning when we left till we got

(15:58):
there at night?
We didn't know.
So that was left.
We just didn't have to worryabout where we were staying all
afternoon, you know, textingpeople or anything like that.

Tom Butler (16:07):
So yeah, there's a certain level of unknown, like
we've got to find a park benchto sleep on because we don't
know where we're gonna stay.
I'm really ready to back thatout of a trip and have enough of
a spreadsheet, so I know whereI'm gonna stay.

Lisa Watts (16:22):
Exactly, there's a, there's a comfort in that and
you know kind of points you inthe right direction, but you
don't know what's going tohappen the rest of the day.

Tom Butler (16:29):
You described an itch to do something a bit
extraordinary as you wereapproaching 60.
I'm wondering if you couldunpack that a little bit.

Lisa Watts (16:38):
I think I'm aware of living my adult life with a
real focus on balance.
Balance has always beenimportant to me, so you know my
work has been sedentary, I sitat a computer, so I always
wanted to be active.
You know, running, biking, yoga.
But when you are alwayscarefully balanced, you don't do

(17:01):
anything to an extreme.
You end up doing everythingkind of mediocre.
That was my feeling, like Ihadn't let myself do one thing
outside of that careful balanceand I wondered what that felt
like.

Tom Butler (17:16):
When I was 59, and you know what launched this
podcast was my decision to dothe Seattle to Portland ride.
Um, if you're not familiar withit, it's 206 miles over two
days and I thought you know whenI found, as I started riding it

(17:37):
, you know, mid fifth, mid year,59, you know I was six months
away from turning 60.
That, wow, you know I was sixmonths away from turning 60.
That wow, you know I, I'm notdoing bad on this bike in.
Uh man, I I've always wanted todo stp.
I better do it now because I'mapproaching 60 and I might not

(17:57):
have a chance ever to do itagain.
I'm, you know I'm old, and nowI look at that and I think you
know I wasn't old.

Lisa Watts (18:09):
I mean, that's just two years ago, I know.

Tom Butler (18:13):
I know, so I'm wondering if you have thoughts
about how our culture portraysaging.

Lisa Watts (18:22):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think there's this storylinethat by 60, it all just starts
to slide downhill, you know, innot a good way, not a like wee
way.
And to some degree, you know, weget slower and our joints hurt
and things like that.
But I feel like the littlesecret that nobody talks about

(18:42):
is, in many ways, ways yourworld can open.
You know, because you have moretime, I started scaling back
work to part-time and I justretired six months ago.
I'm reasonably healthy my kneeisn't good, you know, but I'm
capable and bicycling is soforgiving, you know, it really
doesn't pound your joints, youcan take it at whatever pace,

(19:05):
and so my feeling is the 60shave been my best decade and my
25-year-old self would neverhave believed that, but's this
feeling of just.
You know your world getssmaller and smaller and you know
nothing fun is left, and I justdon't feel that way.

Tom Butler (19:33):
Right, it's so awesome and I think it's
important, you know, to try toget that message across.
You know, people were sayingthat to me when I was in my 40s.
They're saying saying, yeah, soafter 60 it didn't sink in, and
so people like you being anexample, I think is just
wonderful and thank you forbeing that example well, and I

(19:57):
always had the friend who I didthe trip with Dee as my example.

Lisa Watts (20:01):
She's nine years older than me and always a
stronger athlete, so you knowyou collect people like that to
remind you.
Nah, you don't have to stop.

Tom Butler (20:14):
Well, talk more about Dee.
She's a central figure to this.
Talk more about how sheinspires you.

Lisa Watts (20:22):
Sure, yeah, I met her when I was 25 and starting a
job at Northeastern Universityin Boston and she was starting
as a marketing professor.
I was editing the alumnimagazine and we got on a bus to
go to employee orientation and Ihad a cup of coffee and the
Boston Globe and I asked if Icould sit down next to her and

(20:44):
she said, oh, that was a goodidea.
She's British, british accenton and on about how well,
because I'm starting a jobthat's sort of in journalism, I
really need to, you know, keepmyself updated on the news, blah
, blah, blah.
And she said I meant the coffeeand I loved her ever since and

(21:09):
we realized as we drove, youknow, out of Boston that she was
a runner and she liked to ridebikes and so we started playing
together and I really looked upto her.
You know she was older butshe's also traveled the world
and she's biked down the WestCoast by herself and she's
hitchhiked across South America.
She's done adventures I couldnever imagine and very strong.
I stopped doing marathons andshe kept running to a year and

(21:30):
we stayed in touch.
I moved out to Ohio and thenNorth Carolina and we kept doing
things together a couple oftimes a year.
She knew I always wanted to dothis bike trip and she was the
perfect person, the only personreally I considered to do it
with.
But there was definitely tensionon the trip and for a while I
thought this means I can't writea book about it because I can't

(21:54):
say anything bad about myfriend.
And I went through a coupleeditors had really advised me
like three versions of this andthe first one said I get Dee,
she's an interesting character.
I think you just have to seethat you're the main character
and in every scene you need totell us what's going on with you

(22:15):
, what you need and want.
And that was really painful,but I did.
I went back and I realized, youknow, it's always easy to see
yourself as a victim and Dee wasbeing bossy and I was getting
tired of her, but really I wasnot my most laid back self.
This was my big trip.
I had a lot riding on it, youknow, and I probably wasn't as

(22:38):
tolerant as normal, but the bigthing was I learned how to speak
up when something was reallybothering me, and I write about
that in the book a little bit.
I'm really proud of that.
And it went very well with Dee.
She didn't get passive,aggressive on me because I was
being honest with her and I'dsay our friendship is stronger
than ever now, which I'm proudof, because that was one of my

(23:01):
fears.
You know, like you're in themiddle of a trip, you're having
this intense time together.
She's driving me crazy.
I don't want to lose my friend,you know.
So just good communication anda couple people noted along the
way.
So just good communication anda couple people noted along the
way.
This is so normal.
It's such an intense thing.
You're spending 24 hours, weeksand weeks with somebody.

(23:21):
You're going to get kind oftired of each other.

Tom Butler (23:25):
Well, I think that's interesting because I do see
biking as a real social event.
There's also times that Ireally like being out on the
bike all by myself and just kindof on the road experiencing it.
I wonder if you have somethoughts, both before and as a

(23:46):
result of this trip, about thatsocial aspect of cycling.

Lisa Watts (23:50):
Yeah well, what you just described, I agree with
both.
And the thing about Dee again,we've had four decades of
running together and bikingtogether.
That's always been compatible.
The actual activity itself.
She and I have always beenwell-matched in pace and on a
typical day we might chat for 45minutes and it might be

(24:13):
something political orhistorical or personal, and then
we'd be quiet for another hour.
And I definitely am a daydreamer.
I like to just.
That's why I do things like runand bike.
I can just think about whateverI want to think about.
And sometimes it's too loud,you can't talk anyway.
But it is nice to me if you'regoing to be out there biking all
day to have someone to check inwith and then when you see

(24:36):
something gorgeous or somethingscary, you know you have
somebody to share it with.
So I think I've always foundit's not that easy to talk to
other people when you're biking.
You know, if it's windy, justto have a little bit of
conversation mixed with quiet isa really nice balance, and you
know I like balance.
So I think I couldn't imaginedoing a two-month bike trip by

(24:59):
myself.
I would bore myself.
I really appreciated having thecompany and you know, from time
to time we had friends alsoride with us for a day or two,
which was nice for, you know, alittle change of pace and
conversation little change ofpace and conversation.

Tom Butler (25:19):
Did you see it as a way of meeting strangers?
Did it create some?

Lisa Watts (25:21):
interesting conversations along the way.
Yeah, you know, all along theway, from our host to people
we've met, they'd always say youknow what's your favorite part?
And to me I think they werealways wanting us to say that
their town or their city was ourfavorite one, you know.
And Dee would always say, oh,the people we met.
Because she was surprised thathere we were, two friends

(25:42):
traveling together and yet westill talk to a lot of people.
But I feel like it alwayshappens on a bike trip.
There's something people see youand your bike and your bags and
it's clear that's all you haveand they want to help you.
You know, they offer you coldwater, they help you with
directions.
There's something verynon-threatening about it and we

(26:05):
never wore bike gear.
We never were in kits orjerseys or things, so we just
look like two normal older womenyou know out doing some crazy
adventure.
But I found the conversationshappened very easily and of
course, they always say whereare you going?
And I would say the next townwhere we were staying that night
and Dee would say Canada, whichwould?

(26:26):
That would blow their mind.

Tom Butler (26:29):
Right yeah, in a very good way, I would have to
say it opens your mind.
Yeah, opening their mind.
And again, I hope that there'speople that along that way, kind
of saw the two of you andopened their mind up.
Well, maybe I should dosomething like that.

(26:49):
I would love to know that, andI'm sure the Facebook group or
page helped with that as well.
I'm going to risk taking a turnhere that might be hard to come
back from, but I'd like you totalk more about the East Coast
Greenway.

Lisa Watts (27:15):
I grew up along the East Coast so it was always my
dream that that would besomething really fun to do, to
just go along the coast, whichis beautiful, but connect the
dots of the places where I live.
So I was in my 50s, I think, inNorth Carolina and learned that
there was a nonprofit workingon this route from Key West to
the Canadian border in Maine andthat was west to the Canadian
border in Maine and that was,you know, incredible serendipity

(27:36):
.
So it started 30 some years agowith bike travel planners in
Boston and New York City, twovery advanced areas for bike
paths and bike planning, andthey talked about trying to
configure a route between thetwo cities.
And it just kept growing fromthere to reach the whole East

(27:57):
Coast With the concept.
One of the many things I loveabout it multi-use is the goal
that one day you can walk, run,push a stroller, skateboard your
way 3,000 miles up the coast onprotected paths, multi-use
paths.
It's almost 40% of the waythere.

(28:20):
So it takes a long time.
It takes a lot of money it's anaverage of a million dollars
per mile to build a greenway.
But I love how the route wasplanned to go straight through
all those major cities you knowfrom Miami, charleston, richmond
, virginia, new York,philadelphia, boston because

(28:41):
locals use it for commuting and,just you know, bike travel, and
then it's a long distance route.
So I love that aspect of it Alot of travel, bike travel
routes.
Think that you want to go wayoutside the city and avoid all
that, but there's so much goodbike infrastructure in most of
our bigger cities.
So my answer to when everybodysaid what's your favorite part

(29:04):
was coming into these cities andthinking we just got ourselves
there.
You know, and if you travel theEast Coast, you're on the West
Coast.
You travel the East Coast.
You think of it as drivingHighway 95.
You know it's awful, but itgoes the whole length of the
coast.
Who knew that there's thisbeautiful bike path, probably
going along a river, taking yousafely into downtown?

(29:24):
It's very cool.
So I think the people at theEast Coast Greenway Alliance
have gotten nervous as there'sbeen more awareness of the route
that people from Europe, peopleall over the world, are
thinking great, we're going tocome, we're going to bring our
family and we're going to bikeup the East Coast or down the
East Coast.
It's not quite family ready yet.

(29:46):
You know, like 60%, you'restill riding on roads.
Of course they're trying tofind quieter roads, but it's
just piecing together section bysection, trying to connect this
route and you can you can readmore at greenwayorg and check
out the map.

Tom Butler (30:05):
Fantastic.
One of the problems with thispodcast is almost every
conversation.
There's another place that Iwant to ride.
I don't know if it's possibleto take a year off somehow and
just do everything.
But right, you know, just, andall over the world you know yes

(30:26):
it's so it's interesting to me.
There's an interesting aspect ofthis to me which last episode I
talked a lot about a tripabsolutely loved.
It went out and stayed in kindof a funky campground in a tent.
They called it a yurt I don'tknow what the real definition of

(30:47):
a yurt is, but it was a nicesize tent and biked the Olympic
Discovery Trail.
And you know, when I think aboutthe Olympic Discovery Trail,
there's such a contrast betweenthat and what the East Coast
Greenway is, because you don'tpass any.

(31:08):
You know cities, I mean thereare what I would say are towns
along the way, and then you getinto this vast areas that it's
just the wilderness.
And so to have both thoseexperiences, all the experiences
available, I think, are reallywonderful.
And but that is the thing aboutthe East coast greenway, that

(31:32):
biking in the Boston would besuper fun.

Lisa Watts (31:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, just keep collecting themall, keep a list because
they'll always be somewhere youcan go.
A couple of years ago, in thefall, I biked on the Eurovelo
Route 6, which they call theRivers Route, and we started an
hour south of Paris, biked aboutthree weeks into Germany and

(31:56):
then my husband came and we didanother 10 days to Vienna.
That was a really nicecombination of lots of little
villages, lots of days of justnot much along the river, really
easy campsites Europeans knowhow to do good biking campsites
and then a few big cities, youknow, or smallish cities.

(32:19):
I really like that blend.
Somebody asked me well, whydidn't you ride across the
country?
You know that's supposed to bethe big adventure.
And I again, I grew up in thesuburbs, I'm used to having like
a convenience store if I needone, and so a couple of weeks
across the desert and climbingmountains, that sounds like hard
work.
We kept things relatively flatand every day there was a good

(32:43):
chance there'd be a conveniencestore where you could get an
iced coffee, you know.

Tom Butler (32:48):
I love it.

Lisa Watts (32:48):
Yeah.

Tom Butler (32:51):
Talk about the East Coast Greenway Alliance.
Why is that important for thefuture of the route?

Lisa Watts (33:17):
the nonprofit champion, with advocates in each
of eight regions trying to helpall those cities and towns.
The big challenge is alwaysfunding.
I think more and morecommunities are starting to see
that walking and biking pathsare great amenities that their
residents citizens want, but ata million dollars a mile, how do
you, you know, argue for thatover?
You know, paying teachers moreor firefighters or things.
So a lot of it is funded byfederal transportation grants.

(33:41):
At the tiniest, tiniestfraction of what it costs to
build like one big highwaybridge, you could finish the
East Coast Greenway.
So that's their work, and forall this time they have focused
on the actual building of theroute.
So if you go to the website,it's still not allowed about.
You know how to enjoy orexperience it.

(34:03):
They are very cautious.
They urge you to look at a fewareas that are more finished
than not, and in general, thenorthern half, from Washington
DC up to Maine, is more finishedthan the southern half.
So there's that there's somenice sort of week-long loops you
could do, involving Boston andCape Cod and a ferry, things

(34:26):
like that, and I think inincreasingly challenging budget
times currently they're alsobuilding strong alliances with
other trail organizations acrossthe country.
Again, you know strength innumbers and I think the pandemic
helped everyone realize howvaluable paths like these are

(34:51):
for our mental health, physicalhealth, emotional health.
People are using them more thanever.

Tom Butler (34:57):
Yeah well, I think it's organizations like that
that have a vision and can relyon that collaborative approach
and bringing knowledge frompeople and experience from
people.
I think organizations like theEast Coast Greenway Alliance are

(35:17):
vital for that work, so shoutout to all the folks there.

Lisa Watts (35:23):
Absolutely, hey guys .

Tom Butler (35:28):
I'd be curious did you experience pushback from
friends or family prior to thetrip?
Pushback from friends or familyprior to the trip?
You were just the two of youkind of heading out together,
and how did your husband feelabout being left behind?

Lisa Watts (35:42):
Bob was definitely sad.
He was teaching at the time atthe University of North Carolina
in Chapel Hill and we wereleaving as he was wrapping up
his spring semester, which lefthim with lots of empty time and
an empty house, so I felt badabout that.
The one thing I'm proud of is wehad two dogs then, and Bob is

(36:04):
not a dog lover, I'm the doglover, so if I had left him and
left him in charge of the dogs,it would have been too much.
So I'm very proud of we had alittle getaway place on the
river in coastal North Carolinain the middle of nowhere, and I
posted on Facebook that there'sthis great getaway riverfront,

(36:25):
there's two kayaks, there's twoyou know adjustable bikes in the
shed for you and two sweet dogsthat you could spend time with.
And my husband said this isnever going to work, but it did.
I lined up eight weeks ofpeople coming to watch the dogs
and then they would hand off onSaturday to the next one and
they would send me notesoccasionally so that I never had

(36:46):
to feel guilty about that part.
You know it was selfish enoughof me to take off, but he didn't
have to worry about the dogs.
Mostly, I think, people youknow didn't understand why this
would be such a big dream ofmine.
I remember people saying how doyou just step out of your life
for two months?
And I'm thinking, how do younot?

(37:08):
But about four or five days intothe trip, in the middle of a
heat wave in Florida hot, humid,headwinds I went to bed one
night and thought I'm over myhead, I'm not going to be able
to do this.
And I thought of everyone I hadtold about it and all the dog
sitters lined up and my work.

(37:29):
We had hired a young woman tokind of fill in for me a bit at
work.
This is going to be humiliatingbecause I can't do it.
And so then I thought like whydid I tell so many people what I
was doing?
But I had a good night's sleepand we started early the next
morning in the cool and Icouldn't really explain it.
But I was just starting to feelbetter and a friend who knew me

(37:53):
well in North Carolina saidLisa, you just got stronger.
You know, it takes a few dayson a bike and then your body
does kind of kick in and it goteasier.

Tom Butler (38:02):
That's awesome and, again, I'm glad that they got to
see your progress.
You know, if people werenervous, we live in a time where
you know they have, you knowthey can check in on you every
day, so that's awesome.

Lisa Watts (38:16):
Yeah, we also, dee and I, laughed on the trip, the
little place that we had on thecoast again in the middle of
rural coastal North Carolina, wewere adding on a guest bedroom
and bathroom and the contractorwas really curious because I was
starting to plan the trip whenI'd stay there.
And one day he said so, willyou be packing?

(38:36):
And I said yeah, yeah, I havetwo saddlebags, you know.
And that wasn't what he meant.
He meant would I be packingBecause here we were, two women
on our own.
And Dee and I just laughed.
Especially the first time wehad an angry mad driver was
outside of boston, just north ofboston like haha, we should

(38:58):
have had a little pistol in myhandlebar bag and just whip it
out.

Tom Butler (39:01):
We should have been packing we did not pack okay,
okay I'm glad you didn't wishyou had, so that's good not
necessary did the physical actof biking and that time, a
reflection that you talked about, where you're just kind of just

(39:25):
you and the bike and the road.
Do you feel that provided aunique space to analyze aspects
of your life, or do you thinkyou would have done that anyway?

Lisa Watts (39:35):
no, absolutely it, absolutely.
It was all that time on thebike, hours and hours of you
know it's a repetitive motiondefinitely gives you time to
think and all those hours, allthose days away from my desk and
work was just really freeing.
I mean, it literally gave meperspective on I've always taken
work very seriously and verypersonally and to be able to

(39:58):
step away and think what's thatall about.
And I got, I grew physicallymuch stronger so that 60 miles a
day was nothing.
That was just what we weredoing and again approaching 60
and thinking, well, that willnever happen again.
That was awesome.
There were tremendous lessonslearned from that time and they

(40:19):
were both physical, emotional.
Somewhat I was kind ofembarrassed to think back and
think I've been so ambitious allmy life about work.
Is it really necessary?
But it was healthy.
The distance.

Tom Butler (40:35):
You described an experience that you had where
you returned to I guess normallife might be the right way to
say it and this kind of a shiftin viewpoint that what am I
doing with all this stuff?
Can you talk about that?

Lisa Watts (40:53):
Sure, you know, for all the people who didn't
understand why I thought thiswas a treat to go off for two
months on a bike, a big piece ofthat was I had done you know,
eight or 10 week-long bike trips, most of them with Dee, and I
love that feeling of everythingI need is on my bike and my two
panniers.
I wanted to know how that feltfor a long time, long enough

(41:17):
that it kind of felt like thisis how I live and that's exactly
what I got you know, so thatand we kept, you know, weaning
or making our bags less and less, so by the end of the trip
really only needed one pannier.
To me, that's just reallyfreeing.
Look my life is really simple.
I, you know clothes and stuff Idon't need, and so I got home.

(41:39):
We had a three bedroom housethat really wasn't that big.
But you know, I opened a closetlike why do I have all these
clothes, even books?
I love books, but do I reallyneed all these books?
You know, it ended up with verydramatic impact.
I convinced my husband to sellour house, which we loved just
fine, and buying a townhousethat was much simpler and

(42:01):
downsized.
You know, it had real impactand I have a bike friend I've
known for since I was in highschool, charlie, who said this
is common, it's called thePannier effect.
So I felt it big time uh, Ilove it.

Tom Butler (42:15):
It's to me it's like should be assigned uh, life
experience for everybody youknow.
Go out on the road for twomonths, come back, you'll be
changed so yes, I like that Idon't know, it might hurt our
capitalistic economy exactly itdefinitely would hurt walmart
Target, but that's okay.

Lisa Watts (42:48):
I'm always curious about the creative process and I
really like the title CrossingBridges, because I think there I
have to give credit to thefirst editor who helped me.
She just said you know, by theway, you talk about bridges a
lot in this book and I thought,oh my God, she's right and I
hadn't seen it.
But you know the leap from theliteral bridges which I am

(43:11):
scared of.
So that's the piece.
The very first day of our tripwe have to bike over Seven Mile
Bridge in the Florida Keys intoa headwind.
So it might have been fine ifwe had a tailwind and we were
just sailing along, but insteadwe had to go very slowly.
We were down to seven miles anhour and so I was on that bridge
for an hour, petrified.

(43:32):
And then, of course, if you'regoing up the East Coast, you
know, over harbors and bays andthings, there are bridges nearly
every day.
So I really had to wrestle withmy whole fear of bridges and
edges.
But the other piece of themetaphor was, you know, crossing
into this phase of life where,welcoming adventure and being

(43:52):
kinder to myself and knowing mystrength, I think that was the
big bridge I crossed, so yeah, Ilove it, but I didn't come up
with it.

Tom Butler (44:02):
Right.
Well, still, I think youembracing it and understanding
the layers.
I love it.
I was intrigued by what I thinkwas a detour into Lutherville,
especially at that moment inyour life.
Can you talk about Luthervilleand the impact of that visit?

Lisa Watts (44:22):
Yeah, that whole time on our trip was funny.
And when I lived in LuthervilleI was in junior high and
probably a real low point in mylife.
We had moved from Atlanta.
I was in seventh grade.
I went from a little tinyelementary school to a great big
junior high.
I was awkward, I was pimply, Iwas unhappy, but our house was

(44:45):
in a development that had been ahorse farm.
As there are a lot of areasoutside of Baltimore in the
suburbs and my bike was mysalvation, I would just take off
and ride and pretend I was on asailboat.
So as Dee and I came intoBaltimore we rode through
horrendous rain and floods andDee has Raynaud's syndrome A lot

(45:08):
of my runner friends have thatwhere they lose sensation in
their hands or feet or worse,it's painful.
You know her lips were turningblue.
That was one place we had awarm showers arranged.
It wasn't really working outand I went to the little tourist
office in the harbor ofBaltimore and they sent us to a
hotel that had Biltmore in thename and it was right out of an

(45:31):
Ann Tyler novel.
She's a novelist in theBaltimore area who writes about
Korea.
There was rain coming down thewalls of our hotel room.
It didn't matter, because Deewas getting like emergency level
.
I took her bike, I had to carryit upstairs but go take a hot
shower.
And then we were in the hotelroom, we were warm and dry and I

(45:53):
looked at the map for the nextday and like three miles from
our route was my oldneighborhood, this development,
and I said, would you mindterribly if we did this?
And it was a trip, because ifyou've gone back to somewhere
you haven't seen in decades agood 30 or 40 years it looked
exactly the same.
You know this sort of suburbandevelopment.

(46:15):
And there was the split levelhouse that I had thought a lot
about.
Again, I wasn't happy, myparents weren't happy, during
that time, my middle sister waspretty miserable and the house
kind of looked the same and itjust it gave me great pause.
It just brought a lot of thingsback.
I texted my sister a photo andshe said, oh my God.

(46:36):
And Dee meanwhile was justfloored that this sort of
nondescript suburbanneighborhood.
I think she maybe she thought Igrew up in mansions or
something, I don't know.
But it was a fascinating dayand it wasn't expected and all
of that stuff, everyreconnection I had on the trip.
I think was really good for mybrain to sort of sort things out

(46:56):
, you know.

Tom Butler (46:58):
Do you feel like there was some value?
Did you experience like here Iam who I am today and yet, being
in the surrounding, I can kindof be back in who I was at that
time.
Did you feel anything aboutthat juxtaposition?

Lisa Watts (47:18):
Yeah, totally, and you're articulating it way
better than I am.
That was exactly it.
I was remembering, you know the13-year-old, that I was so lost
and so miserable and so lonely,and it made me realize my life
is good and I turned out to havea happy life and the
perspective was amazing.

(47:39):
Also, there had been this sortof gravel bike path behind our
house that had been the longdriveway to probably the big
farmhouse on all of thatproperty and they had now paved
it and I realized that was myfirst bike path because I would
spend hours on that.
You know again, my bike was mytrue salvation during that time

(48:00):
of my life.
So to make that connection wasreally fun too.
But yes, the perspective waslife has turned out far better
than it was back then.

Tom Butler (48:10):
What a cool experience and again, just read
the book.
You'll get a lot more detailson that than we can talk about
here, but it's a cool moment.
You talked about some negativeaspects of the trip and again
I'm really glad you did.
I'm wondering.
There's this element of beingtempted to get fixated on

(48:32):
mundane things.
I wonder if you could unpackthat a little bit.

Lisa Watts (48:36):
Yeah, I mean there's a lot that's repetitive about a
multi-week bike trip.
Every day you kind of do thesame things to pack up your bike
and then, when you get whereyou are, you do the same things
and hope to get a shower.
It gets repetitive.
I'm not good with repetition, Ilike variety.
But there's also somethingfamiliar to runners and cyclists

(48:59):
where you fixate on the endgoal, you know like well, we got
to get to Annapolis, that'swhere we're going today, instead
of just enjoying the journey.
And so I was working on that.
I had an older friend tell metry to go see one thing every
day, don't just like aim for thedestination.
And Dee and I just laughed likewe would go past a state park

(49:21):
sign or something.
We saw it.
We weren't really, you know, inthe mindset of going to a
museum.
We did kind of want to getwhere we were going and be done
for the day.
Of course, it was in the lastweek or so that it dawned on me
oh, my God, this is almost done.
This has been such a privilege,it's been such an easy way of
life with so little to worryabout, savor every day.

(49:44):
But it took probably until thelast two weeks to kind of for
that to sink in, and that itwasn't about am I going to make
it or not.
It's like you should enjoy this.
This may be, you know, aone-time thing, but when you're
tired and hungry, little thingscan also get to you.
So you kind of have to payattention to that.

(50:04):
And I think I have the friendthat I biked in Europe with
could sometimes see that energylevel of mine going down in the
afternoon and she'd be askingquestions and I'd be getting
grumpy and she would just go inand order a coke and a plate of
french fries and put them downand she knew let's just do a

(50:24):
little refueling.

Tom Butler (50:25):
Yeah that's awesome yeah.
I think it's something torealize Again.
It's a different way ofexistence than what happens day
to day and there's going to bekind of different things that

(50:46):
come up, and kind of learningabout yourself and what you can
get fixated on is a valuablething to do as well.

Lisa Watts (50:56):
Yeah, I also remember standing on a sidewalk
in New York City and we took twowhole rest days.
Our pattern was we tried totake a day off each week and so
it was eight weeks of the tripwith one day off.
We had two days off in New Yorkfor various reasons, but I
stood on the sidewalk on aMonday morning we were about to

(51:18):
start, it was a beautiful day,probably mid-June and just
watched the bustle, you know,people going to work and school
and thought I have dreamed ofdays like this when, instead of
being part of that bustle, I getto go ride my bike.
So again, you know that wasalmost three quarters of the way
it was.
I started having reminders oflike this is this is something

(51:42):
to not rush through and to payattention to.
You know it's, it was privilege.

Tom Butler (51:49):
There was a moment where you had a bit of a
conflict with Dee that you canwithdraw from, that you talk
about in the book.
That was an interesting momentfor me thinking about.
You know what can happen on ajourney by bike where you know
you're together.
It's not like you're going togo home or something.

(52:12):
It's like you're together thenext day.
So could you talk about that?
Did you learn something aboutyourself in moments like that?

Lisa Watts (52:21):
Definitely, definitely.
I have three older sisters.
We were raised in a householdwhere you don't confront things
head on.
You know, our mother would justget passive, aggressive and
there'd be days of silence andthat's what we grew up with.
You know, we didn't.
We don't know how to actuallysay to somebody.
What you're doing reallybothers me and I thought it was

(52:42):
just.
This whole tension was buildingwith Dee.
She kept bossing me around andtelling me how to do things and
I was feeling you know that thatwasn't nice to me and I called
up all I could remember fromparenting teenagers, when you
need to talk to them and getthem to listen and you're not
supposed to say you, you, youyou're supposed to use I words.

(53:04):
And I just asked D if I couldsit down and talk to her before
we went to dinner and I wasnervous but I just tried to
really plainly say this is howit makes me feel when you keep
telling me here's how to bringyour bike in through a door,
here's where you should put yourcoffee cup, and it was very
enlightening to her.
She had been completely unawareand she just said thank you for

(53:26):
telling me and I really Iwanted to call my sisters,
because none of us are very goodat that, and it was.
It's a good skill.
It's much healthier than justlike not talking and I couldn't
do it.
I had to, I was forced tobecause we were leaning on each
other.
We had, you know, three moreweeks to go.
So and again I have realizedsince then and people were

(53:50):
mentioning it some of thesetensions are normal.
You know, we were spending allday together, all night.
When we're biking, we're onlythree feet away.
I don't spend nearly that muchtime with my husband, you know
proximity.
So yeah, I'm proud because Ifeel like it was a new strength,
a skill I developed for myself.

Tom Butler (54:09):
That's wonderful.
You have worked for East CoastGreenway Alliance and then you
do this trip that.
I think that's like this coolelement of the whole thing.
I'm wondering what yourthoughts after doing this trip
are about cycling navigation.

Lisa Watts (54:44):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I have very strong thoughtsabout maps and apps and
navigating.
I mean it was the hardest partof our job and remember this is
seven years ago, so apps werewhere they were better.
She kept toggling betweenthere's an East Coast Greenway
map that is just strictly theroute which, in theory, you
could just follow that.
But then of course, you know wehad to go off course to find
our Airbnb or to find a you knowa diner or something.

(55:05):
So going back and forth withthat to me I have to stop.
I have to get out my goodglasses, I have to.
I don't toggle between the twoas well as she did.
It was a lot of work and youknow the Greenway.
I felt allegiance to followingthe East Coast Greenway route as
much as we could.
She's a little smarter thanthat and realized, you know we

(55:26):
could actually take this rightand you know that was a little
bit of tension.
But my bike trip through Europewe kept going back and forth
between commute and ride withGPS and I realized that you know
the technology keeps gettingbetter and the idea that you
could actually have an app thatspeaks to you and says, right,

(55:48):
turn, you know, coming up in 20feet.
That's amazing to me becauseit's a lot of work.
I am about to bike fromCleveland to Cincinnati on the
Ohio to Erie Trail.
What I've heard is it's I forget300, 350 miles, 95% of it on
bike path.

(56:09):
I don't think we're even goingto need navigation.
I don't think we're even goingto need navigation, and that is
so much easier than you know.
Again, the East Coast Greenway60% on roads.
You are having to navigate andwe tried to put it very clearly
on the website.
You should be careful.
You should be comfortableriding on roads and navigating

(56:30):
through some.
You know busy towns and thingslike that.
So I believe the apps are goingto keep getting better and
better.
The mapping's going to keepgetting better.
I want it to be as simple aspossible and visible.

Tom Butler (56:43):
Yeah, and I hope that bike paths get more and
more common too, like, forexample, if it was a dream
scenario where the entire EastCoast route was dedicated bike
lane, protected bike lane thatwould change so much.
I hope for that, you know, Ihope that happens, that comes

(57:06):
about Maybe not for us to see,but someday I hope it comes
about.

Lisa Watts (57:12):
It will someday.
I think there's yeah, it's justhard to say when.
And again, it's frustratingwhen you look at the federal
transportation budget andrealize what a tiny, truly like
less than 1% would do it.
And you know the East Coast isso highly populated.

(57:32):
You would be affecting thelives of so many millions and
millions of people.

Tom Butler (57:37):
Well, I currently am embracing the concept of the
bike as a medical device, andit's been that way for me, and
it's like I wish thetransportation budget or some
budget would acknowledge justthe real value, the immense

(57:58):
value of active recreation andactive transportation.
But again, that's something wecould get sidetracked on, I'm
pretty sure.

Lisa Watts (58:03):
I'm with you.
I'm with you and to me a bikehas been a mode of
transportation, not just.
You know travel and I thinkthat's really important.
You know there's all kinds ofstudies about how much of our
travel in cars is within threemiles of our home, and if you
made it so people could do thateasily on bike what it would
mean for health, for gas, forthe environment.

(58:26):
You know I happen to live in aplace where I can do that and
it's wonderful.
I ride a mile to the grocerystore and it makes me happy.
I know it's good for me, butmany, many people don't.

Tom Butler (58:39):
Yeah, you have stated that you aim to nudge
others to pursue their long-helddesires.
After all of this and kind ofyou embracing this adventure,
what's the biggest piece ofadvice you would offer someone
who kind of feels the samerestlessness that you
experienced?

Lisa Watts (59:00):
Well, nike said it first.
But you know, just do it,because I can say it's
incredibly empowering.
And you know, I know all theexcuses that we have and all the
fears that we have, but justletting yourself pursue it, the

(59:20):
lasting impact is just, they'reincredible gifts, you know.
You realize you learn thingsabout yourself, you kind of open
up to other opportunities.
And you know I debated againthis book, went through like
three or four versions and for along time I just put it on a
shelf and thought it was a nicebike trip, Lisa, let it go, but

(59:41):
it kept feeling like.
But there is something I reallywanted to share and that's that
it's like I am just your normalperson.
I am not a super athlete, Idon't have, you know, special
access to anything and I coulddo this and I want other people,
especially our age and older,to know that they can, because
of how it changes your lifetruly.

(01:00:02):
And it was probably the first orsecond year of the pandemic,
dee and I met a mother anddaughter who were kind of
restless in the pandemic.
She was home from collegebecause you know the pandemic,
and they lived in Rhode Islandand I happened to be at the
southern end and Dee at thenorthern end, and we met at
their house with the windowsopen so we wouldn't share germs.

(01:00:23):
So they could ask us questions,great questions, and they had
been doing a little training.
But the mother, who was maybeyounger than I was so at that
point I'd probably be 60 and Deewas 69.
She said, well, just looking atyou two, I know I can do this

(01:00:44):
and that's a great message, likewe're just normal people and
you can do this too.
That is cool that is cool and Ithink there was that feeling
which you know I would kind offorget as we went along, but
people would see two sort ofolder middle-aged women biking

(01:01:05):
for day after day.
It kind of gives you pause, itmakes you think about what is
possible.

Tom Butler (01:01:10):
Yes, and a pause, a needed pause really.
You know I'm finding as I getolder and you know Dee is an
example for us, right?
I mean, you know, in what shecontinues to do.

Lisa Watts (01:01:22):
Exactly.

Tom Butler (01:01:30):
So you completed the journey and there's time to
reflect on it.
You know that is the writingabout it.
I'm wondering if yourdefinition of a fulfilling
quotes.
Third act of life, if that hasbeen impacted, if it's evolved.

Lisa Watts (01:01:42):
Yeah, great question , definitely.
I think again I had some timeaway from my job to think about
ambition and what all that wasabout, which was like just a lot
of peddling uphill and tryingto prove things.
You know, my work is veryproduct oriented.
I can show you here's mymagazine I made, or here's my

(01:02:03):
website, and look, here's mywhole portfolio.
I'm like what you know, what'sthat all about?
Maybe it's time you know togive up some of that ambition
which was freeing and you know,just good perspective on
yourself and, I think, ingeneral, like coasting.
For a long time I thought thatshould be something about the

(01:02:24):
title of the book.
We Went Up the Coast, but Ilearned to coast, that sometimes
you can just enjoy the ride,and it doesn't mean to me sit
around, it just means thinkabout the ways that you push
yourself and what are youenjoying?

Tom Butler (01:02:38):
the journey or and it's been such a fun
conversation- I think CrossingBridges is one of those books
that does a great job ofproviding an interesting

(01:03:01):
exploration of cycling, but itcombines it with really
meaningful explorations of life,and thank you for writing that,
and I'm glad that you sharedsome of your journey here with
us today.

Lisa Watts (01:03:13):
Thank you, tom, great opportunity.
I appreciate it.

Tom Butler (01:03:17):
All right, take care now.
One of the things that reallyjumped out to me in our
conversation was the lastingimpact that living out of
panniers for two months had onLisa.
I see riding a bicycle as acomplex and rich experience.

(01:03:38):
In this case, it's interestingthat the simple life that is
possible while traveling by bikehas been transformational for a
lot of people.
It's just one of the layers ofcycling that I don't think about
very often.
I really appreciated Lisa'sability to analyze her journey,
and she is able to convey theimpact in a meaningful way for
others.
That was true in our discussionand also in Crossing Bridges.

(01:04:01):
My hope for you is that cyclingis opening a lot of
opportunities to learn aboutyourself and to take on
challenges, even some challengesthat you thought you would
never attempt.
And remember, age is just agear change.