DeSalvo Custom Bicycles

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tom Butler (00:43):
Just when I think it's getting better, something
happens and there's a setback.
Recently I was on the roofputting up Christmas lights and
I really aggravated my Achilles.
The bad thing is that when Iwas on the roof, I didn't notice
that it was getting stressed.
It was only later, after notmoving for a while, that the
paint set in.
Because of my Achilles problem,I've been afraid to go on long

(01:04):
rides.
I feel like if I get a long wayfrom home and it flares up,
I'll do a lot of damage becauseI need to ride back home.
I'm actively seeking strategiesfor dealing with the issue.
I know it's going to take along time to heal.
And I can't continue to avoidlong rides, so I need to find a
different way of rehabbing thetendon while still riding.
One of the things I'm going totry is going to stay seated for

(01:26):
a while.
And see if that helps.
I don't spend a lot of timestanding up on the pedals, but I
do like to go hard out of thepaddle for short climbs just to
stretch my legs in a differentway.
I hope by staying seated andreally focusing on good pedaling
techniques that that will helprelieve some stress.
The one thing that I've reallyfound to be helpful is using KT

(01:47):
tape.
Following instructions from theKT Achilles YouTube video, I
run a strip from midway on thebottom of my foot to a little
way up my calf.
Then I put two half stripsperpendicular to the full strip,
one below the ankle and oneabove.
That seems like it really helpsto support the tendon.
For some reason, I didn't thinkthe tape up before I got on the
roof, and that was a bigmistake.

(02:08):
There are different kinds of KTtape.
Our family has always used theoriginal cotton tape.
But recently I purchased the KTtape pro.
They say it is ultra-breathablesynthetic fabric, and I was
attracted to that.
But I don't think that it stayson as well as the cotton.
Now there are a ton of othertypes of KT tape, but I don't

(02:29):
know anything about them.
I have a really hard timeputting the tape on myself.
I don't seem to get ittensioned right.
Kelly usually helps me and Iconsider her a pro at it.
But when she's not around, itis a problem.
I started looking for adifferent solution to the tape.
I started looking for a sleevethat I can put on my foot
instead of the tape.
I ended up purchasing a ProTechAthletic Achilles sleeve from

(02:50):
RDI.
I haven't tried it out yet, butI'm hoping that wearing the
sleeve will give the samebenefit as a KT tape.
If it's not, I'm going to bewalking around at a conference
for three days.
I'm worried I'm going to berepeatedly aggravating my
Achilles at the conference if Idon't have something.
So either the sleeve works, I'mgoing to have to get better at
applying the KT tape myself.

(03:11):
Of course, the big issue hereremains my lack of flexibility.
I've just got to get reallyserious about changing that
limitation.
By looking back at habit changestrategies I've talked about
that have worked for me before,I know I need a routine.
So here it is.
I eat at 7 a.m.
every morning, spend 20 minuteson the trainer.
That burns off breakfast andwarms up my muscles.

(03:33):
And then I do a 15-minuteflexibility session.
So I've done this four out ofthe last six days, but I haven't
always managed to get it inright at breakfast time.
So I'd give myself a score of80 out of 100 so far.
I'll put a link to the videothat I'm doing in the show
notes.
It's a 15-minute post-workoutstretch by Kayleigh Cohen.

(03:54):
But as far as I can see, thereare a ton of good options out
there.
As I expected, I'm not evenclose to being able to do the
stretching like instructed.
But I'm going to keep workingat it.
In a recent episode, Imentioned that I wish there was
some measurement that I could doaround flexibility because
numbers really do help motivateme.
I'm still working on that, butI do have some ideas.
A couple other items I want toupdate you on.

(04:16):
First, I picked up a new bike.
This is my gravel, touring, andcycle crest bike.
You might be wondering exactlyhow it can be all those things.
I'll answer that question in afuture podcast.
If you're curious to see thebike, you can find a new bike
day video on the CyclingOver60Instagram.
I'm going to be breaking downeverything about the bike.

(04:37):
And I'm going to do somethingnew and make a video about it.
You'll be able to find thevideo on YouTube or listen to
the audio where you normally getyour episodes.
The Cyclingover60 YouTube is atCyclingOver60.
You need to include the at signwhen you're searching.
And finally, I have a newCyclingverse collaboration that
I'm extremely excited about.
I can't say anything about itright now, but I believe my

(05:01):
vision of having Cyclingver60 bea big help to people wanting to
get or stay fit through cyclingis going to be really improved
by this collaboration.
There is a lot to work throughto bring this together.
So stay tuned.
She talked about her bike andMike D'Asalvo, who made it for

(05:29):
her.
She recommended that I bringMike on the podcast, so I
reached out to him.
At that time, Mike let me knowthat he was slammed with a bikes
to make, but to try him againlater.
So I did reach out again, and Ifeel really fortunate to be
able to have him share about hisyears as a frame maker here on
the podcast.
Just a heads up, I wasrecording the conversation over

(05:49):
the phone, which is differentfor me.
However, I think the qualitydoesn't really get in the way.
Here is our conversation.
I have the pleasure of beingjoined by Mike DeSalvo today.
Thanks for coming on, Mike.

Mike DeSalvo (06:02):
Thank you for having me.

Tom Butler (06:04):
I love the art and science of the bicycle.
I I see it as just this greatmachine.
It's so inspiring.
And uh so I'm really excited tohave a conversation with you as
the owner of DeSalvo CustomBikes.
Yeah.
So I'm going to start out witha question that I like to start
out with.

(06:24):
And what is your earliestmemory of the bicycle?

Probably my earliest memory was as a kid.
I grew up in rural NorthernCalifornia, really rural, just
almost in the Oregon border.
And we all rode, you know, thatwas in the late 70s and 80s,
and we rode our 20-inch bikes,you know, our BMX bikes.
And we we were on those framethings from sunup to sundown,
and we were jumping them andjust having a ball.

(06:49):
So that was where everythingstarted for me for sure.

Tom Butler (06:51):
To me, you know, that picture of kids being
outdoors on BMX bikes, I justthink that's such a great
picture.
I like to see that, and I liketo see some of the bike tracks
that are springing up around.

Yeah, and unfortunately, I mean I have
kids and it's these nextgenerations, it's a different
world.
You know, we were we lived tojust get up and get on our bikes
every day, you know, and thenof course we didn't want to come
in at night, you know.
So and you know, whether it wasand and I can remember riding
our BMX bikes.
Oh, I had a friend that lived aways out of school, so it was

(07:27):
really novel for us to ride thethree or four miles to school
some mornings and you know, andeven bigger trips, you know,
seven, eight, ten miles on BMXbikes, you know.
We didn't know any better, sowe just did it.

Tom Butler (07:39):
Right.
My understanding is that you'vebeen building custom bikes in
Ashland, Oregon for over twentyyears now.
Is that correct?

Yeah, so I'm sneaking up February of nineteen
ninety-nine was when I built myfirst bike.
So I'm sneaking up ontwenty-seven years.
So yeah, it's pretty it's beena wild ride.
I was twenty-six when Istarted, I'm fifty-three now, so
it's yeah, it's it's been along one already.

Tom Butler (08:06):
Looking back, what first drew you to frame
building?

So, I mean, I guess I would take even a step
farther back, and I I'm one ofthose kids that I mean I kind of
w grew up in the bike shop whenI was the freshman in high
school when I first got my jobat a job in the bike shop, and
you know, it was fixing flattires and sweeping the floor and
things like that.
So I worked in a bike shop allthrough high school.
We had a work experienceprogram where you know you could
work out go to school half ofthe day, and basically working

(08:31):
was your elective.
So I did that.
And then after I graduated, Itook classes at United Bicycle
Institute and I spent some timein Colorado and continued to
work in bike shops.
You know, I think that thattime that was the early nineties
and the mountain bike boom washappening, and I was pretty
smitten, you know, with theRitchie bikes and the Bontragers
and the Breesers and all thoseguys that were kind of in that

(08:53):
that forefront of mountainbiking.
So I think that that was theyou know the thing that really,
you know, inspired me.
And I and I suppose the otherthing too, I can still remember
being in the bike shop in theeighties and getting the Torelli
catalogs and seeing thosepictures of all the you know,
those little Italian factoriesand you could, you know, you
could buy a bike and you knowthe the old Italian guy

(09:13):
supposedly are hopefully made itfor you, you know.
Just the idea of makingsomething, I suppose, and you
know, learning that it it ithappened, you know, there were
people doing it.

Tom Butler (09:23):
You talked about mountain biking, seems like that
area of the world where youwere growing up w was a place
that people were latching ontoit pretty early on.

Oh, absolutely.
Yeah, that was it was when Iworked in the bike shop in the
80s, you know, we were we wereselling mountain bikes, and then
of course that late 80s, earlynineties time period was when
the absolute you know, mountainbike boom, you kind of felt like
everybody back then, you know,you bought a mountain bike and
two but two weeks later you wentto a race kind of a thing, you
know.
It was just what we all did.
So it was a you know a prettyspecial time for sure.

Tom Butler (09:55):
Do you have a count for how many bikes you build?

I don't.
So little you know, under myname, I'm around 2,000.
But I've had I've also done,you know, it's been a number of
years ago, but and and it it's ait's a little convoluted,
right?
Because you know, do you countif you welded it, or you know,
that's only part of the process.
But in the early days of thespeedwagon bikes that the guys
that put vanilla did, I riwelded those for five years,

(10:20):
which was you know, probablywelding into another couple
hundred bikes there.
And over the years, not muchanymore, but I've done some that
get sold under, you know, kindof other names because I don't
do much of that anymore.
So it's funny that you askedthat when I was I was just
looking the other day.
When I when I started, I wasbuilding a lot of steel bikes
and it was a lot of a handful ofmountain bikes, but a lot for

(10:41):
some reason a lot of road bikestoo.
And you know, I have to saythat road bikes of 15 years ago
were a whole lot easier to buildbecause we didn't have things
like disc brakes and all theother stuff that goes along with
it.
It was kind of like, you know,we'll get your size dialed in
your color and and we don't haveto worry about are you going
bike packing or putting thembags or how many water bottles
and all that kind of thing.
You know, there were some yearsback there.
I never broke 150.

(11:01):
There was one year where Ibroke probably like 148 or 149,
but I did a lot of years where Iwas building about a hundred
bikes a year as well.
And then what happened to me,oh, somewhere around 2010 or 12,
is that things really startedto shift to where it got turned
into all titanium.
And titanium bikes are aprocess that just takes a lot
longer.
So now I've the numbers havegone down.

(11:23):
And then I'm kind of settledinto this place of about a bike
a week as kind of a happy spot,you know, with as I said, with
the more complicated bikes andmost of them being titanium.
And things have also shifted toI used to sell through bike
shops and dealers, and now Isell direct, so they usually the
bikes are usually complete.
So, you know, it just it thewhole process takes a little
longer.

Tom Butler (11:43):
Wondering if there are some shifts if you look back
over the years that are keyshifts in frame building that
ushered in a different way ofdoing it, or maybe radically
changed it or fundamentallychanged it.
Are are have those shiftshappened since you've been
involved?

Well, I mean, I think that they have, but what
are the never-ending battles isoperating like I do and so many
of my friends that are justone-person operations?
You know, a lot of times it'shard to it's uh it you know,
it's technically hard to actlike a larger company that has a
production line, if that makessense.
So, I mean, of course thingshave changed, standard have

(13:33):
changed, things are constantlyevolving.
But the first handful of bikesI built were mostly lugged and
brazed, and then quickly I movedinto TIG welding, and so now
everything is I do is is TIGwelded, and that's kind of what
works for me.
I mean, the example might belike, you know, in titanium
we're seeing a lot of sort of 3Dprinted parts right now.
And it's not to say there'sanything wrong with them, it's

(13:55):
not necessarily my style yet.
I won't say never, but youknow, so far it just hasn't been
something that has reallyappealed to me.
I mean, I suppose the biggestone would probably be the the
carbon bikes, right?
They you know, as that reallystarted to get popular, I don't
even know what was it, probablyif in my sphere it was probably
what around twenty.
I mean, we used to in my earlydays we did bikes that were, you

(14:16):
know, steel front ends withcarbon rear ends, and then we
did that for a few years, itseemed like then all of a sudden
there were these full carbonbikes, and it was like, you
know, if you want carbon, justgo get a carbon bike.
You know, it doesn't make anysense to kind of mix and match,
really, per se.
So, you know, I think thecarbon bikes would be the the
biggest one that I would pointout as changed things probably
in the last say 20, 25 years.

Tom Butler (14:36):
Well, I have a carbon fiber bike, and but
sometimes I wonder about it.
It feels to me like you look atwhat professionals ride and
what they're doing is sodifferent than what I'm doing.
It's almost like it's adifferent, you know, the bike
can be a totally differentmachine than the machine that I

(14:59):
I need, and I see carbon fibermaybe as being part of that.
You know, if I'm getting a newbike at the end of every season
or sooner, you know, then carbonmaybe makes sense to me, but I
but I don't know that I totallyfeel like that's the case for me
now.

I wouldn't badmouth any of the materials,
they all do something well,right?
I mean what carbon does reallywell is it's super light.
It is interesting to just watchthe kind of the evolution and
how things change.
And ultimately I think thebiggest thing is what do you,
you know, what do you want outof your ride?
I mean, if you're a racer andyou're looking to save every
every last sec second, you know,probably the carbon is gonna

(15:35):
make sense.
But you know, what I find isthat a lot of people that come
to me for, you know, usuallytitanium bikes these days, but
even steel bikes are, you know,maybe somebody an enthusiast
that's looking for kind of anall-day comfort thing.
I mean, there was a at a f afunny time funny point in time
for me, about 2010 or eleven ortwelve, somewhere in there, I
had this when the when the shiftto a lot of titanium bikes

(15:57):
really happened to me, I startedgetting a lot of these folks
that wanted they wanted titaniumbikes to train on and they were
saving their carbon bikes forrace day, you know.
And I don't know whether that'sneeded or necessary, but it was
an interesting thing that theywere they felt they felt felt
that they wanted to do.
So But yeah, I think uh, youknow, they're at the end of the
day everything has a adramatically different ride

(16:18):
quality and potentially alifespan and all that kind of
thing.
So I think the important thingfor folks is just to, you know,
decide what works for 'em.

Tom Butler (16:27):
You mentioned TIG welding, yeah.
And I am not a welder.
And I hear the term TIG weldinga lot.
First of all, are you stillteaching TIG welding?

I uh so I was my time in teaching at United
Bicycle Institute ended what wasit?
I think it was in 21 or 22 whenthey unfortunately after after
uh after COVID, they just thethe frame building classes
didn't survive at U at UBI, sothey they kind of shut those
down.
So for the last years I havenot officially been teaching

(17:02):
frame building and or welding.
But although there's a a newget a new folks starting up up
in Portland firsthand framebuilding, and they we've been in
contact, it'll be interestingto see if we get back to doing
some of it up there.
But yeah, so I did basicallywhat my history there was is
that I in 99 and and you know,by the way, it was at UBI.

(17:22):
So I went to work at UBI in 99as a mechanics instructor, and
then it was there.
They were also teaching framebuilding classes at the time, so
it made sense, you know, thatthe mechanics instructors could
also help out in that in thoseclasses.
And so it was during that timewhen I really, you know, started
building bikes.
And you know, for me after Ibuilt my first one, it was like

(17:43):
every every night and weekend Ijust couldn't get enough, you
know.
I just the next one, the nextone, the next one.
And so that was when I when Ilearned how to weld and and
specifically weld bikes.
And so after a number of yearsof that, I don't even know, it
probably wasn't until 2000,five, six, seven or eight, so I
had a a bunch of years behind methat I did start really

(18:05):
teaching and and helping out inthe frame building classes at
UBI, and then kind of I supposefor about the last I don't know,
sixteen, eighteen-ish years,would go back to UBI f you know,
a time or two a year and kindof be what they call the guest
instructor.
So for their TIG weldingclasses, both in steel and
titania.

Tom Butler (18:22):
When I hear TIG welding, what should come to
mind?
What is it?
What you know, what's itreferred to?
It's there are a lot ofdifferent kinds of welding.

There are, yeah.
And so TIG stands for tungsteninert gas.
And so the tungsten is what theis a tungsten electrode, and
then the inert gas that getsused is argon.
So the interesting thing aboutTIG welding is it it's it's a
little bit more of a dynamicprocess than the guy who might
weld the bumper on your car, puta muffler on your car.

(18:56):
Because what happens with TIGwelding is you have a torch in
one hand, you have filler wirein the other, and in the bicycle
world, usually we're gonna haveoperate the power in our foot.
So you've got two hands and onefoot going, and you you know,
this is basically it's welding,so you're essentially gonna be
in the dark.
So it's a skill that you know,it takes it takes most of us a

(19:20):
while to get good at it, and Ieven I even maintain that I
still I'm you know, the betteryou get, the better you want to
be.
So there's you know, at thispoint I've been welding for
almost 27 years, and I stillwant to be better, you know.
So it's just, you know, and andit's the way that most bikes
are put together.
Maybe a a department store bikemight be MIG-welded, but yeah,

(19:40):
most of them are gonna be TIGwelded.

Tom Butler (19:43):
There's this interesting dynamic in my
household.
My wife is a dentist.
Okay, and so we'll be watchinga movie, and then she can't help
but kind of comment on theteeth of the actress in the
film.
I'm wondering, uh you know,with the kind of experience you

(20:05):
have, do you see welds andcomment on them in your mind?

Oh, of course.
I mean we do, we all do, andwhat's what's really interesting
to me, and I've got it'sinteresting that you say that,
because just in the last in thelast few weeks, I've I've been
helping some guys that aremaking some electric
motorcycles, and so I've beenwelding some frames for them.
And you know, I would say theirstandard of of their visual

(20:32):
standard is lower than whatbicycle people expect.
It's really interesting how youknow some of the some of the
best welds I think you'll eversee are gonna be on a bicycle,
you know, because there'snothing else to look at, right?
It's not like a car or amotorcycle or things that have
other things that are gonnadrive your highway.
It's a bicycle frame.
You know, you're gonna study itto the nth degree.
And so, yeah, I mean I thinkwe're you know, we all work

(20:55):
really hard to do the best wecan because you know we're gonna
be we're gonna be prettycriticized.
And then it's interesting forme too, because one of my just
maybe a casual hobby orsomething.
I I love airplanes as well, andso you You know, I've gone to
air shows and you know, I've Iwas there an air show a couple
years ago and there was an anairframe that was partially you
know, it was in progress and thesta the you know the the

(21:18):
standards were not even as goodas far as the fitting, how well
the tubes fit.
I mean they were not nearly asgood as what we require in
bicycles.

Tom Butler (21:26):
I don't know how I feel about that.

Well, I think that it's the I think that the
reality is that it's well inbicycles we use really thin
tubes, so we have to be thingshave to be really good.
And then the other part of it,I think, is that what so many
you know backseat weldingcritics, so to speak, for lack
of a better term, don't realizeis a pretty weld may or may not
be a strong one.

(21:50):
And you know, what we're youknow, what what most of us are
looking for is something that'seven and you know, the spacing
between the puddles or even allthose kinds of things.
So, you know, it's uh anyhow,but yeah, entertaining for sure.

Tom Butler (22:04):
Is frame building you think still capturing the
imagination of younger people?
Are there new builders comingon?
Is it is it something that'sgoing away?
What do you think about that?

That's a I mean it's a tough one for me.
And I, you know, behind thescenes, so many of us builders
are are really good friends.
I have bike builder friendsthat I we talk every week, you
know, and and most of them, ofcourse, are my friends.
We're a similar age.
So I mean I think that thereis, but I through my lens
overall, I don't see, I mean, II don't see unfortunately, I

(22:42):
don't see a whole lot of youngpeople that are into bikes.
I mean, there's maybe littlepatches here and there, but I
mean recently, you know, I Ifind myself, I mean, you know,
building bikes, I would say mostof it, maybe some 30
somethings, but a whole lot of40 and 50 somethings, even
sixties, and you know, and uh ayear or so ago I was talking to
a guy and and I looked at hisorder from, oh my god, you're 23

(23:04):
years old.
I mean, I don't know what Ican't tell you last time I built
the bike for somebody as youngas you are.
That's amazing, you know.
And I think bikes in general,unfortunately, I don't I I just
don't see I don't see the appealto be as broad as when I was
that age, if that makes sense.
You know, we do see, you know,obviously if you go to the show
like at May or something, ofcourse there's you know, there's

(23:27):
there seems to be a lot offolks, younger folks into
building bikes, but you know, Imean, how broad is that, I don't
know.
I mean it doesn't feel in myworld, it doesn't feel very
broad.

Tom Butler (23:38):
It's a really interesting dynamic.
I don't have uh that muchconnection with younger people.
But it'd be interesting to seehow that trend goes for sure.

Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean I I'm curious to to seewhere you know where it all
goes.
I mean I don't I think it'shard to say.

Tom Butler (23:58):
Can you talk about the differences?
Yeah, and uh maybe you knowwhat people should think about
like if we're just looking atthe difference between a steel
frame and a titanium frame.
All right, what how would youexplain those differences?

Well, so between steel and titanium, I mean the
benefits of titanium are thatit's going to be lighter and you
don't have to worry about youknow rust or corrosion.
So it is a little more durablein that sense, but it also is
gonna be in, you know, in mostterms, it's gonna be somewhere
around a thousand to fifteenhundred dollars more, kind of
comparing apples to apples.

(24:36):
To me, the ride at the end ofthe day is always gonna be the
most important.
But I would say out of all thematerials, steel and titanium
are gonna be the most similar,if that makes sense.
I mean, what I tend to find isthat people who like steel
usually love titanium becausethey're looking for that kind of
that resilient, springy ride,if that makes sense.
You know, versus if somebodysays, Oh, I'd love how a carbon

(25:00):
bike rides, well, you know, thatperson might be better served
by an aluminum bike.
But at the end of the day, Ithink it's it's the ride quality
and you know, potentially thebudget.
It's it's interesting in mylittle world.
I used to really just play themiddle a lot, you know, just
say, hey, hey, you know, yougotta make your own decision, I
can't really make it for you.
But I I feel like at this stageof the game I've come to the

(25:21):
point where I my two cents tomost of my customers is like,
you know, if the budget allows,I do think titanium is the
better way to go just over thelong haul.

Tom Butler (25:31):
I'm thinking you're typically working with people
that have our experiencedcyclists.
Is that fair to say?

Yeah, I mean, for the most part, I would say
generally enthusiasts.
I mean, over the years I'vedone some bikes for racers, and
of course, you know, I've donesome well, last couple years
I've done a couple step-throughsor, you know, type frames and
things like that.
So it's I mean, it is a mix.
I would say it's kind of a mixof enthusiasts.
Mixed in there somewhere isgoing to be some really short

(26:00):
and some really tall people, andthen, you know, people that
maybe just can't find what theywant off the shelf, so to speak,
right in the local bike shop.
Something that the bigmanufacturers aren't making.
And I I actually have alwaysfelt or feel that more and more
is that as small builders, wetend to fill those kind of gaps

(26:20):
that, you know, maybe there'sten or twenty or a hundred bikes
of with rim breaks that peoplewant this year, but there's not
ten thousand, you know, so itno, there's no big company
that's gonna want to do aproduction run, but the small
builders can pick up slack, soto speak.

Tom Butler (26:34):
I think I read someplace that you had worked
with Columbus tubing.
Did I get that right?

Well, I've always just been a huge fan.
I've never actuallyspecifically worked with
Columbus.
I've always just been a b a ahuge fan of their tubes, which
is is kind of funny, I willadmit, and it probably goes back
to my, you know, when I was akid and looking at bikes, and
and you know, that's one of thequestions, well, what's the
tubing?
And, you know, it well, it kindof matters, but maybe it does

(27:00):
or doesn't.
But we always looked for thatlittle Columbus sticker, you
know, on the bike, and we alwayswanted to know what was the
tubing it was made out of.
And then, you know, when Istarted making building bikes,
in in my first few years, therewas a lot of kind of
experimentation and playingaround with things and what I
liked and what I didn't like,and and I use tubing from all
the different manufacturers, andI just found the Columbus tubes

(27:20):
to be my favorite.
I mean, both in the shapes thatthey do and the the surface
finish and all that kind ofstuff.
So I've just just been a fan oftheir of their tubing for sure.
Uh not to say that, you know,quite honestly, at this stage of
the game, it's not that thatyou know they all the companies,
the reputable companies thatare making tubes, Reynolds and
Deta Chai, and those are thekind of the big ones these days,

(27:42):
at least in the steel world,they all make good stuff.
But you know, it's kind of aChevy or Ford type situation, I
suppose.

Tom Butler (27:51):
I want to talk about frame geometry a bit.
I I don't have you know theability to kind of look at a
bike and say, okay, this frameis uh kind of this way, so
therefore it's gonna uh maneuverthis way or it's gonna be
comfortable or whatever.
I just don't have an innatenature of uh you know how

(28:13):
changes in frame geometry reallyaffect quality hand of link
sure.
But I how important is framegeometry when someone's uh
looking at getting something toyou know that they're gonna
really enjoy.

Yeah.
Well, I do I think it's gonnabe important, and it's gonna be
important that the you know, ifsomebody's working with a small
builder, that the builderunderstands you know what you're
looking for.
And the what I always findmyself, because the the really
common thing for me is peoplecome to me and they want the
Swiss Army night, right?
They want to do bike packingand I want a super fast road
bike and you know, I wantsomething to commute to work on,

(28:51):
and you know, and it's like,well, that's not really
possible.
So what I find myself askingpeople is like, let's be honest
with ourselves.
And what we want to do is wewant to design the bike to be
you know the best we can for theway it's gonna get used most of
the time, right?
And then so then the other theother things just fall into
place, you know.
If say if it's gonna be mostlya gravel bike, but occasionally
it's gonna go bikepacking, youknow, we're gonna focus a little

(29:14):
more on that.
So it it is you know,ultimately it's making sure that
the bike is suitable for theterrain where it's gonna be
mostly used, I guess, is the wayI would describe it.
So, you know, once again, ifit's gonna be uh used a lot on
gravel and kind of more singletrack, you know, you want maybe
want a bike that's a little morestable than say if it's a road

(29:35):
bike that's gonna get raced incriterions where you would want
something that was you know alittle more responsive or easy
to kind of flick around, right?
And and what I would say, Ithink although it can be
daunting, there's you know,bicycle evolution has been going
on for a really long about 150years or something.
I think it's just 20, maybe notquite 150, but 125 or

(29:57):
something.
And so what we do find is thatwe're while we do make, we all
make changes, we're still Iwould say there's almost like
some industry norms, some rangesthat we still end up working
within.
And and that was actually oneof the first things I did when I
started building bikes, was I,you know, of course I thought I
was gonna reinvent the wheel,and so you know, I built bikes

(30:20):
of lots of different designs,and you find you find you know,
you quickly figure out why weare where we are as far as bike
designs and angles and thingslike that go.
So I'm I guess to kind of wrapit up, the most important thing
is to know where the bike isgoing to get used and then the
geometry kind of match that, ifthat makes sense.

Tom Butler (30:42):
In the three years that I've gotten back on the
bike and gotten serious aboutspending time on the bike and
making it my primary form formof recreation and activity and
all that.
You know, my opinion is thatthere isn't uh such a thing as a

(31:02):
bike cycle.
You know there uh there's morethan one thing.
If you're gonna really enjoy uhcycling, uh you're gonna need
more than one bike.
I mean if you look at mountainbiking versus road biking, you

(31:29):
know, you're obviously you know,are like okay, those are two
different things, but I thinkthere's uh in a lot of ways,
there's uh different kind ofcycling that require different
bikes.

Oh, absolutely.
Yeah, absolutely.
And it's and it's you know, ofcourse, it's not that we can't
do it all on one bike, but wthose of us that are enthusiasts
are like, well, this is fun,but it might be more fun if I
had X, Y, or Z, right?
You know.
So no, I mean I do agree withyou that if if if you're you

(32:03):
know if you're looking to kindof enjoy a lot of different you
know, a lot of different aspectsof cycling, it is it is truly
hard to have one bike that doesit all.
And that's you know, as I said,that's that's the most common
request that I get.
And I just have to, you know,kind of tone people down and
like, you know, okay, well whatwe once again, what we really
have to do here is is be honestwith ourselves and how is the

(32:26):
bike going to get used most ofthe time.

Tom Butler (32:28):
And we have to, you know, we kind of have to start
with the I think it's reallyhealthy to think about the
bicycle as you know differentfor different applications.
Because I don't want someone tolook at my bike that I use on
the road and and I try to get uhas much power as I can get out

(32:51):
of that.
I don't want them to look atthat and think that's a bicycle
because for them a bicycle mightbe something more of a beach
cruiser with a basket on it thatthey're gonna ride to pick up
groceries, you know.
And so I think it's reallyhealthy to think of it as
different.
Really different for differentapplications.

Oh, for sure.
Yeah, no, I totally agree.
And well, and especially any ofus that have you know bikes
that are whatever enthusiastlevel bikes that cost a bit
these days, you know, that'sprobably not the thing that you
want to take down to get frozenyogurt with your kids or you
know, get groceries, you know.
So you know, not the thing youwant to have locked up on the
curb.

Tom Butler (33:32):
So you talked about you know figuring out how the
bike is going to get used.
And again, I I think it'd bedifferent having the
conversation about someonethat's just brand new
anti-cycling versus you knowsomeone who's been enthusiastic
for a while and uh coming in andhaving that conversation.

(33:54):
I'm I'm wondering how does thatconversation go?
How do you stuff out like howthey're gonna use the bike?

So typically I would ask questions like, you
know, what are your what areyour normal rides?
And usually that's acombination of, you know, what
are the mileages, you know, whatare you doing on a regular
basis?
You know, are you riding youknow 20, 50, 100 miles, you
know, what's the terrain like?
A lot of the other thing for metoo in this day and age, you
know, for for many years now Iseem to do a lot of kind of the

(34:27):
gravel and the all-road stylebikes.
So a lot of that thatdiscussion, you know, we talk
about tire size because ofcourse the rougher the the area
that somebody's riding, usuallythe wider the tires they want to
go.
So all those things kind ofkind of help make those
decisions.
And I would say, I mean, if I'mbeing honest, that most of the
people that come to me are theirenthusiasts.

(34:50):
You know, they've they've spentway too many hours on forums
and the internet and inner youknow, over-researching every
little detail that you could.
And you know, and and and theother part of it, many of them
even have had multiple custombikes built for them before, you
know.
So it it is kind of prettyrare, other than the the the

(35:13):
times that I think I would getfolks that are are maybe new to
cycling is the ones that mightyou know be some really
interesting fits, right?
So really small or really tall.
But outside of that, I wouldsay that I mean, uh and and the
crazy thing with the internet isit's not uncommon these days
for somebody to tell me aboutsomething that I haven't even
heard of yet, and I've got to golook at it, you know, because

(35:34):
whatever the new the latest,greatest thing is that
somebody's looking at.

Tom Butler (35:39):
That's interesting.
That's I I find that to bereally interesting.
Uh how about uh for olderriders?
Are you uh do you see a lot ofolder riders?
And is uh how do you feel aboutpeople cycling later in life?

Yeah, I I do and I think it's great.
And what we see is thattypically when folks get older,
I mean one of my jokes is thatnobody ever comes to me saying
they want they want a longerreach and their handlebars
lower.
You know what I mean?
It's like we're all gettingolder and we all typically want
a shorter reach and a moreupright position.
And and I think it's you knowit's phenomenal that you know

(36:17):
folks, you know, folks ridetheir bikes into well, I'm one
of my customers on my list thatI was just talking to the other
day, he's 78, and getting a newbike, you know.
So I think it's really, reallyimpressive for those folks that
just you know they stay on theirbikes, but very much so that
what we find is that the fit isall about comfort and less about
you know looking like the nextpro racer, you know what I mean,

(36:40):
which in in my day was GregLamond or Lance Armstrong.
You know, we've we've lost thewe don't really care about those
positions anymore.
We just want to be comfortableand be able to go out and ride.

Tom Butler (36:50):
You mentioned the made bike show that happens in
Portland.
What I saw is that it'sconsidered the world's largest
handmade bike show with over 200builders.

Uh you're I don't know there's 200 builders.
I think 200 brands is what theysay.

Tom Butler (37:10):
Okay, okay.

And I'm sorry, it's it's the it's the gate
world that I play in, so I'myeah Yeah, and you're down in
Ashland and uh you've exhibitedat MAID.

Tom Butler (37:26):
Is there something about Oregon that is like uh
frame builder production stage?

Yeah.
Well, so what I would say aboutshows like MADE is so years
previous there was one calledthe North American Handmade
Show, and our little industry ofyou know people making bikes
for people, whatever we want tocall it, bespoke handmade, you
know, there's lots of differentterms for it.
It it's a pretty I mean it's apretty niche industry, right?

(37:55):
You know, I mean the peoplethat are gonna want to go are
are the ones that are reallyinto it.
So the made show came about asas a result of the the North
American Handmade Show no longerhappening, and and many of the
builders there, keep in mind arenot from even from the local
area.
Um and they'll travel.
Well, I know one of the guys,Rizzo Cycles, Ruben, has

(38:15):
traveled from Spain to come tothe MAID show.
So while I would say that we dohave a pretty high percentage
of builders here in the PacificNorthwest, you know, the a show
like MAD builders will traveltoo just because there's not
many shows for builders, if thatmakes sense, that highlight
builders like in that rightregard.

(38:36):
So so yeah, but it you know,yeah, between, you know, I don't
know, Portland, I meanPortland's still got a ton of
builders, and and even down herein southern Oregon, I mean per
capita we've got a bunch too.
And I and I I would say I meana lot of that is is you know can
be contributed to UBI in theframe building classes that they
taught for so many years.
I don't I mean I out outside ofthat, I I guess I don't I mean

(39:02):
uh I mean one of the storiesthat I've told many times is
that so my early days there wasuh there used to be a Seattle,
the Seattle bike show.
I don't know if they still dothat anymore.
And I used to go up to that andI was always blown away, you
know, you'd get like 10,000people or something.
It was always really impressiveand you know, all all facets of
cycling and everything.
And and and then there weresome guys that did a show down

(39:23):
in San Diego, and I thought, ohmy gosh, the San Diego show,
that's gonna be crazy, isn't it?
I mean this the weather downthere is so beautiful, and you
know, it if if we if if in if inthe Pacific Northwest we get,
you know, in Seattle we get somany people, we're gonna get,
you know, something million orhundred more down in in San
Diego.
And what I was quickly remindedof when I was down in San Diego

(39:46):
was in in really talking topeople that that show it was a
number of years ago now, it'sreally slow.
And it and so it was so slowthat I just started talking to
people.
And I said, Man, you know, it'swhere do you guys go to ride?
And they all said, Oh, youknow, we have to drive here, we
drive here, and we drive there.
And and they were just like,Yeah, you know, we just we have
no infrastructure.
And I was just so remindedthat, you know, so much of it,

(40:08):
for better or worse, I thinkit's such a cultural thing,
right?
If you have infrastructure andyou have good places to ride,
it's almost, you know,independent of the weather to
some degree, you know, we'llwe'll get dressed and just go
out and do it.
So, you know, I I don't knowwhat it is about our area up
here that that makes us all wowand ride bikes, but I think it's
wonderful.

Tom Butler (40:29):
I think it's an outdoor thing, and I I think
people up here, one of thethings they love about the
Northwest, including me, is thatit's beautiful outdoors.
Exactly.
And then I think it's a greatpoint that the infrastructure is
a huge factor.
Yeah, and I've talked aboutthis a number of times on the
podcast that I think uh at afederal level there's a real

(40:53):
lack of understanding ofacademic creation.
So I think uh is so importantand I think we need to figure
out ways to continue tocommunicate the value in in

(41:17):
having infrastructure.

Yeah, absolutely.
Well and you know what I waskind of reminded of in Southern
California too is how muchthey're a car culture, you know,
and and that that is reallykind of the predominant thing
there.
I mean I do I do agree with youand I I know what I find myself
I mean I've actually only20,000 people you know but even
around here I I find myselfriding on the road less and

(41:40):
less.
I just feel like the amount ofdistracted drivers is more and
more you know so always lookingfor places to ride where that
won't be an issue you know.

Tom Butler (41:50):
Yeah.
If you get approached bysomeone, you know, maybe even a
young person hopefully in theirtwenties or something and it
says you know I just love theconcept of frame building.
I just really want to do it.
What would you say to themabout you know about it and what

(42:11):
they might need to know or youknow well what I used to tell
this when I taught at UBI, youknow, I guess what I was just
told the students was, you know,first things first and so you
know build your first bikes andyou know decide if you like the
process and if you do, you know,build more so you can hopefully

(42:31):
get good at it and you know andjust see where it goes from
there.

Because it is I mean at this stage of the game
you know I've really come togrips with the fact that the
bike industry is just not aplace to make a lot of money.
It's it's a it's an industry tohave a lot of fun in, but the
margins are just so low acrossthe board, whether it's a small
frame builder, whether it's yourlocal bike shop, you know, I

(42:57):
mean it it just it's it's atough it's a tough place to be.
So I had a guy stop by recentlysaid, well do you think this is
a good business I said no it'snot a good business if you don't
love bikes because you know ifall you're looking for is a
paycheck, this is the worstthing in the world you could do.
So you know but if you lovebikes and and as I said you

(43:19):
build some bikes and you getinto it and I mean it's super
rewarding.
I I I still you know thousandsof bikes into it and I still
enjoy the process um before youbefore we got on this morning I
was welding some chainstays on atitanium road bike, you know,
or all road bike I guess.
But and that's never gotten oldfor me.
But running a small business isa lot of work.

(43:40):
And I've always operated bymyself so you know I think one
of the things for me personallyis I always had this idea that
when I was younger that I wouldwork really hard for the first X
number of years and then itwould kind of get easier and
well that that never happens,you know.
So you just you just gotta keeppushing until you can't push
anymore.

(44:01):
But yeah I think the mostimportant thing that's gotta
come first is the bikes and youknow the s those skills.
Because those are probably ifsomebody's just getting into it
is the the actual skills ofmaking the bike are going to be
you know one of the big deficitsfrom the get go.
So that's a good place tostart.
And I honestly tell people it'syou know if you have a day job

(44:22):
and you want a really fun hobby,I mean it could be an amazing
hobby, you know and that's whatwe see too I think you know a a
a lot of the folks out there arejust maybe you know maybe it's
their part time job or theirhobby or you know just a really
serious hobby and that's greattoo.

Tom Butler (44:37):
Yeah I think it's like that with a lot of things
that are there's an art form toit and I think that's the same
thing with frame building.

Mm-hmm Yeah yeah it it is I mean it's a lot of
skills and I have to the thingthat I feel like I've learned
over the years with framebuilding is I mean it's similar.
You know at the at the end ofthe day building metal bikes is
metal fabrication but it isdifferent than you know once
again the guy that's gonna putthe muffler on your car kind of

(45:06):
a thing.
And I and I've actually I'malways really really honest with
folks too because I'm like youknow I'm a one-trick pony I mean
I learned how to work withmetal and weld so I could build
bikes.
You know if you asked me tobuild a a metal workbench I mean
I could do it but there's awhole lot of people out there
that could do it probably fasterand and better than I could,
you know so go find those peopleif that's what you want to have

(45:28):
done.

Tom Butler (45:28):
You do more than the frame you you know and you you
put the bikes together.
So I was interested to get yourcomments on this.
I keep hearing that if you'regonna do one thing to upgrade
your bike, put better wheels onit.

Do you think that that's uh the right thing to say
yeah I think that rotationalweight's always a big one right
and and of course you know youhave to figure out where you're
starting from and where youmight be able to go to right but
if you're you know kind of forperformance something that
you're gonna feel when you stompon the pedals you know that's
one of the things that of coursein my world you know a lot of

(46:07):
people do that.
I mean they're counting gramsin every single every every step
of the way but you know a nicelight set of wheels with a light
set of tires you know if youcan drop a pound of rotational
weight that's something thatyou're gonna feel you know when
you stomp on the on the pedalsso I would say it has the
potential to be a good upgraderight but you have to look at
look at what you've gotcurrently to make sure that

(46:28):
you're gonna you're gonna losesome weight.

Tom Butler (46:30):
Right.
And in my case I mean I I havea pounds that I can shed still
that makes a big difference.

Of course of course and you know we never
nobody ever wants to hear that II've I'm always a little
entertained that some of thebiggest riders seem to be the
ones that that are mostinterested in shaving weight on
the bike and it's like you knowjust a you know like you say it
doesn't it doesn't make anysense.
But I think at the end of theday we you know we're as riders

(47:02):
right we all have differentdifferent ideas of what we're
after you know are we are wechasing a shot stravosection or
do we just want to go for a bikeride, you know?

Tom Butler (47:10):
Right.

And it's interesting the the term I
always use a lot.
So when I was younger I didrace a lot both on mountain
bikes and road bikes and didendurance kind of racing and
stuff and then you know then hadkids and and I've always ridden
bikes over the years but my myjoke now is that my 26 year old
self would be pretty embarrassedright because I don't ride with
any technology at all.
To me riding a bike these daysI don't really care how far I go

(47:33):
I just want to get the time togo for a bike ride.
Yeah and uh and I just I don'treally you know I I mean I like
to go out there and get a goodworkout and enjoy the scenery
and everything but I don't Idon't use any technology which
drives my a lot of my friendsnuts.

Tom Butler (47:51):
I was connected to you or I how I found out about
you is through Erin who has oneof your bikes and if people want
to know more about Erin and Ithink her story is a great
story.
On May 29th of this year I didan episode with Erin where she
talked about her Indian Indiabike trip and I just thought it

(48:14):
was epic and you know so peoplecan learn more about her and and
that trip by listening to thatepisode.
She is quite small.

Yeah she is super small yeah and that was I mean
that was a pretty good exampleof somebody who kind of requires
a custom bike I I don't I can'teven I don't think she's much
over five foot tall.
And what what tends to happenfor folks that are that are on
the shorter side like that isthey end you know basically the
the size of bike that they fiton is kind of a kid's bike which

(48:48):
is pretty low quality.
So Erin actually was turned onto me by her local bike shop up
in up in Eugene who I had workedwith a number of times and and
they do a lot of fitting andthis is a pretty common one too
is because I don't I actuallyvery rarely meet my customers
face to face.
My bikes go as all over theUnited States but they do go all

(49:09):
over the world.
I mean I've shipped bikes toEurope and Australia and Japan
and so it is it's not the mostcommon thing you know or
actually it's the least commonthing that I meet people face to
face.
So the really common thing wasthat folks would go somewhere
and have a fitting done maybe ata bike shop maybe at a fit
studio and then provide me withthat information.
And I remember what was sodifferent about with Aaron's is

(49:31):
is as soon as I got that fitinformation I had to kind of do
a drawing of a bike to make surethat it was even buildable if
that makes sense you knowbecause at five foot tall making
the tire you know basicallyhaving all the clearances
correct becomes a challenge forsure.
But we were able to do it andand yeah and she took that bike
and had an amazing adventurewhich was super cool.

Tom Butler (49:54):
I mean it's to enable someone like her you know
who is getting on a bike youknow later in life to to have a
tool that she can really enjoyriding that's fantastic.
Absolutely yeah yeah for sureand and then the other side of
that is someone that's reallytall.

(50:15):
I'm wondering if you could talkto you what what are some of
the considerations that go inthere well usually the
considerations is just are wegoing to have parts that that
work?
I mean things like is the steertube on the fork going to be
long enough or are there crankslong enough or you know those
are the issues years ago I builtsome some bikes for

(50:36):
professional baseball orbasketball players that were all
like six eight plus you knowand so then it's the kind of the
reverse similar issues butdifferent than the really small
folks you know and as I saidearly on those are those two
kind of demographic so to speakare definitely a portion of what
I do every yeah if you havesomebody that's tall and big I'm

(50:59):
thinking about basketballplayers they're you know they're
athletes they're usually notyou know really light people do
you have to like look forspecial tubing?
Do you do you reinforce tubingin some way?
How do you manage that weight?

Yeah so it's you would they would right so a
lighter rider is going to getsmaller diameter thinner tubing
and a bigger rider is going toneed larger diameter thicker
tubing so yeah it you knowthat's basically kind of the
difference in you know and theother I mean on that same note
you could have somebody I don'tknow somebody who's five foot

(51:41):
ten who rides a 56 centimeterbike and one rider's gonna be
140 and the other's going to be210 pounds.
So although those two bikes arethe same size they would be
built very differently the tubediameters and wall thicknesses.

Tom Butler (51:55):
As you're looking ahead I do you see like advances
that are going to impact framebuilding where do you see frame
building going you know that's atough one I I I I I honestly
don't know.

I mean I've been in the bike industry as I said
since the mid eighties and I'veseen you know lots of things
come and go and the bikeindustry seems to be really good
at that you know and things getrecycled every 20 or 30 years
or whatever.
And I would say that a lot ofthose I would almost say that a
lot of those kind of advances soto speak or changes in
standards kind of drive thebikes that we build if that

(52:36):
makes sense you know as far ashow it's going to change small
frame boulders I I honestlydon't know.
You know I'm curious to see ifif they're the you know if this
kind of thing will be taken upby the generations and
generations and you know at theend of the day you know can they
you know can they make it abusiness and survive on it which

(52:57):
I don't know as things get youknow more production oriented
and more you know we can go onAmazon and have something here
tomorrow and you know all thosekinds of things that are pretty
counter to what it to what theway that small builders operate.

Tom Butler (53:13):
So I just read an article that was in Bicycle
Retailer.
It's talking about uhlegislation called U.S.
Bicycle Production and AssemblyAct bipartisan legislation
designed to eliminate theprimary cost barrier that
prevents large scale bicycleassembly and manufacturing from

(53:35):
returning to the United Statesto me it seems like large scale
manufacturing you know it it'salready gone.
It's hard for me to imagine howit could come back.

Yeah it's the yeah it it'd be interesting to see
if they could you know I meanbecause I've I've I haven't seen
that article specifically butit's been interesting to follow
a lot of that stuff lately youknow and try and understand what
you know where what was onceproduced here that's now no
longer is and I mean companieslike Track and Cannondale did

(54:14):
build a lot in the US and Ithink um oh even Huffy did it
over the years but I you know wehaven't I don't think we've had
large scale bicycle productionI mean I still remember when I
was in the bike shop in the 80sand the the Sheikis or whatever
they were you know that bigsticker on the top of the C tube
said designed in the USA andthen the little teeny one down

(54:35):
at the bottom said made inTaiwan you know so yeah I mean
of course it would be wonderfuland it'd be great if it if if it
happens and we can figure outhow to make it happen.
But it's yeah it's aninteresting one to to to try and
comprehend based on you know wwhat we know about the cost of
labor and all those kinds ofthings.

(54:55):
And and the other thing I youknow I would say too I mean is
the small builders we're doingis something a little bit
different than like right than abig production facility is
which is kind of one of ourstruggles is you know a lot of
people will well you know ofcourse you know the everybody
wants something tomorrow and youknow it's hard you know when
you're one person doingeverything one at a time and

(55:17):
every every single one isdifferent.
You know that doesn't reallylend itself to production very
well and so I mean this you knowhopefully the small builders
can kind of operate even if wehave large scale production here
you know but but I guess I'lljust have to wait and see.

Tom Butler (55:35):
Well I think that there would be a gap closed
especially in the beginningbetween the cost of you know a a
bike from a large manufacturerand a custom made bike you're
talking about supply chaininfrastructure that has been
developed for decades now insome of these areas and man it'd

(55:58):
be super tough to to do thathere.

Mm-hmm in my opinion Yeah no exactly I mean I
I uh it'd be it'd be you knowit'd be interesting to see to
see if it if it could if itcould work and I mean there have
been there was a place in nearPortland for a lot of years
called Anodizing Inc.
Well they went under a fewdifferent names but they would

(56:25):
do you know say you had a brandand you went with them and she
went to them and you said I needyou know fifty of this size and
fifty of this size and fifty ofthis size and they would they
would build those for you butthey they went through a couple
iterations and they're no longerin existence.
It's just a it's a trickything.

Tom Butler (56:42):
I mean it you know I I heard one something recently
too and it's like okay so if youyou know if somebody's the
average consumer is you knowthere's a bike made in China for
a hundred dollars and there's abike made in the US for a
thousand dollars what what doyou think most people are gonna
go for you know and that's anunfortunate part of it you know
well I'm gonna be following itit it'll be interesting to see

(57:04):
but oh for sure no absolutelyMike thank you so much for
taking the time to do this youknow like I said I I enjoy the
bike as a machine and you knowthere's a lot of things about
how bikes are made and howframes are made and frame
geometry and all that stuff thatI I don't know that much about

(57:27):
and I just really appreciatedthe conversation and having you
give us a view of your world asa frame builder.

Yeah yeah it was definitely fun to share today
and I hope that uh I hope thatfolks picked up something and
yeah maybe we'll do it againsomeday.

Tom Butler (57:43):
I I look forward to it.
All right

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