July 27, 2024 • 55 mins
Tom Butler is back on the saddle with a fresh sense of adventure as he shares his excitement about a newly discovered cycling route. This week's episode includes Tom seeking advice from the CO60 because of a slight mishap. Plus, he gives listeners an update on his preparations for this season's challenge, a ride across Washington State.
Joining the show is Zachary Vehrs from Egoscue of Seattle. Zach introduces listeners to the lesser-known Egoscue Method, a powerful approach to improving body alignment and reducing pain. Get ready to discover how this method can enhance your cycling experience and overall well-being. Don't miss this informative and inspiring episode!
Link: egoscue.com
Thanks for Joining Me!
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Show music is "Come On Out" by Dan Lebowitz. Find him here : lebomusic.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tom Bulter (00:04):
This is the Cycling Over 60 Podcast, season 2,
episode 52, the Goscue Method,and I'm your host, tom Butler.
Welcome back to the podcast.
(00:25):
This is where I share myjourney to get and stay fit
later in life.
I share my personal journeyhere and I also record
conversations with the peoplehelping me along that journey.
My hope is that you hearsomething as you listen that
informs or inspires you.
One of the things I've talkedabout here is that I'm very
annoyed with the fact that thebridge is out on my local bike
(00:47):
trail.
Having that bridge out cuts meoff from my favorite routes from
home.
But this week I did someexploring and I found an awesome
new route.
The route is 33.32 miles longwith 1,330 feet of elevation
gain.
An interesting thing about theride is that it has three main
(01:07):
climbs.
As I ride away from home, eachclimb gets progressively harder.
Then I hit the turnaround pointand do the climbs in reverse,
so that means I go from harderto easier on the way back.
I really like that progression.
Now the hardest climb is notvery long, but it is steep
enough to push me to my limit.
Right now I consider a heartrate of 170 beats per minute as
(01:31):
90% of my max heart rate.
If I get above 170 on a climb,I will step off and let my heart
rate recover.
The first time I rode up thesteepest part of my new route, I
had to step off about 50 yardsfrom the top.
Up the steepest part of my newroute, I had to step off about
50 yards from the top, but afterthat I knew the climb better
and I was able to make it to thetop of the climb, as I hit 170
beats per minute.
(01:52):
All in all, I see this as aperfect route, giving me what I
need to build up my cyclingstrength and endurance right now
.
I hadn't fallen with my bikeonce in the last two years until
the other day, and then Imanaged to go down two rides in
a row.
In both cases I was basicallystopped, so I only got scratched
(02:12):
up a little.
The second time I fell was ongravel.
I wish someone could have beenthere to see how I almost pulled
off a spectacular save beforemy wheel slid out from under me.
I don't know about you, but Isee falling with a bike as a bit
of an art, and while it mightsound strange, I'm kind of glad
that I went down.
I was hardly hurt at all andyet I have that practice in case
(02:34):
I go down again in not such asafe situation.
The first time I fell, I whackedmy helmet on the pavement
enough to leave a dent in theback of it.
I've always heard that youshould replace a helmet if you
damage it, so even though thedent is small, I will probably
get a new helmet.
I recently saw a post that madeit look like white helmets are
cooler than black helmets in thehot sun.
(02:55):
The helmet that I will bereplacing is black, but I don't
think I've ever felt like it waswarm on a hot day.
But what they showed in thepost was enough that I think I
will replace it with a whitehelmet.
I would love to hear whathelmet you would recommend.
I have only started looking fora replacement, but it's hard
for me to wade through all therecommendations.
If you have a favorite helmet,let me know.
(03:17):
You can find my email and showInstagram in the show notes Plus
.
My favorite place forinteraction is the Cycling Over
60 Strava Club.
Please consider joining theclub and dropping a helmet
recommendation there.
I'm continuing to plan out theride I am doing across the state
of Washington in September.
I changed my mind recentlyabout lodging.
(03:37):
We were thinking of renting acamper van, but as I looked at
different models I felt like thevan wasn't going to be as
convenient as I originallythought, so that has led me back
to looking for hotels and otherrooms to book.
I do think I have found somecool places to stay, but of
course I need to see what mywife Kelly thinks before moving
forward.
One of the key aspects of thetrip is going to be how to
(03:59):
handle water.
Looking over the route, I amsurprised at how remote a lot of
the writing will be.
Currently, I am planning oncarrying enough water to make it
40 miles before refilling Forme.
I think I need to carry 96ounces of water to make sure on
a hot day I can go 40 miles.
You might be wondering why I'mworried about this when I have
Kelly driving in support.
(04:19):
The problem is that I'm notsure that there will be any cell
coverage on the remote sections.
That would make it hard tocommunicate where she should
meet me.
The situation with cellcoverage is something that I'd
really like to figure out,because I would feel much more
secure knowing that I could callher if I needed some assistance
.
When I pull up the Verizoncoverage map, there is a
gigantic hole in the coveragethat includes where I will be
(04:42):
riding.
A somewhat unique threat to myride that I have absolutely no
control over is the risk ofwildfire.
In fact, state Route 20, whichis the road I will be on for
most of the ride just reopenedtoday after being closed for a
while because of a fire.
I actually know someone who hadto cancel their bike trip on
(05:02):
State Route 20 just the otherday because the highway was
closed.
That would be extremelydisappointing.
I will just have to hope thatwe get some significant rain
before the second week ofSeptember.
(05:22):
I think I've mentioned thisbefore, but if not, kelly is
constantly studying what ourbodies need to stay fit.
A few years ago, she startedtalking about Egoscue.
She feels like it really helpedher with some chronic joint
pain.
I mentioned a couple weeks agothat once again I got pushed by
a health professional to work onmy flexibility.
I decided this week to have aconversation about Egoscue, and
(05:43):
Zachary Veers from EgoscueSeattle agreed to answer some
questions.
Here is our discussion.
I'm excited to introducelisteners to my guest today.
Thank you, zachary Veers, forjoining me.
Thanks, tom.
Thanks for having me.
Zach, you are the owner anddirector of Egoscue Seattle.
Zachary Vehrs (06:00):
I think a lot of people haven't heard of Egoscue,
my wife Kelly, has been anadvocate in our home for the
Egoscue method for a while and Iwanted listeners to know about
it.
Awesome, yeah.
Well, I'm happy to share what Iknow here.
Just a little bit of background.
I've been doing this in Seattlefor about eight years now.
(06:24):
I own my own practice here.
Before that I was working as anEgoscue therapist in Portland.
They had a clinic down there.
That's kind of where I got mystart.
But before that so how I gotintroduced to this, I studied
exercise science in college.
I was a personal trainer tryingto figure out what I wanted to
do with.
When I grew up, I was alwayskind of into like functional
(06:47):
fitness.
You know this idea of usingmovements and exercises to
improve you know how our bodiesfunction and how we feel.
Not just you know how we lookand strength, but our functions.
So one of my professorsintroduced me to this method.
The Egoscue method, which isbasically the foundation of this
(07:07):
method, is all on posture.
So the idea is that you know ifyou have chronic pain or
limitations, that it's, for themost part, you know barring some
kind of you know birth defector if you've been hit by a truck
or something that most of ourchronic aches and pains are due
(07:29):
to our bodies being out ofbalance, meaning our posture is
compromised, our muscles are notdoing what they're supposed to,
the joints aren't moving theway they're supposed to, and so
we develop these less than idealpatterns, you know, and those
can eventually lead to injuriesor just chronic pain, and we
view pain as simply your body'sway of talking to you.
(07:50):
So it's, it's a way for yourbody to tell us hey, you know,
pay attention, something's notworking the way it's supposed to
.
It doesn't necessarily meanyou're broken or that it's
beyond repair.
It just means it's like awarning light, you know, check
engine light on your car.
That's how I think of it.
So, anyway, I really liked thisidea and thought, as a trainer,
(08:11):
like, oh, I could do this.
This would be a great way forme to help service, to provide
for my clients.
But of course, this is for oldpeople though, right, like I'm,
I don't need this.
I'm a invincible 20 somethingyear-year-old, right?
Well, it turns out I played alot of racquetball in college
and grad school and I startedhaving my own back and shoulder
(08:34):
problems and I thought, well,maybe I should give this Egoscue
a shot.
And so my professor you know, hegave a little assessment on me
looked at my posture and I wasreally clear as soon as I saw my
photos.
How you know, my head wasforward, my torso was completely
stuck in a rotated position, somy spine was twisted, among
(08:55):
other things.
And so then it just made senseLike it wasn't the racquetball's
fault that I hurt, I wasbringing a body to the court
that was, you know, out ofalignment and and just kind of
prone for injury, right, andthat's kind of the approach we
take with you, goscue, whetherit's racquetball or, you know,
cycling in this case, uh, orreally any activity, our bodies
(09:16):
are designed to do that stuff.
It's just we have to, um, wehave to make sure we're bringing
a balanced body to the activityif we want to be able to, you
know, do those things and enjoythem without pain.
So I started doing theexercises and, as you can
imagine, felt better, got meback on my feet playing
racquetball without any issuesafter that, and that's kind of
(09:37):
what got me started, and so Ibecame certified and wanted to
help other people achieve thesame thing.
So here I am, 10 plus yearslater.
Tom Bulter (09:47):
Well, there is a key figure, Edie Goskew.
I wonder if you could talk alittle bit about who he is.
Zachary Vehrs (09:53):
Yeah, so Pete, that's where the name of the
method comes from he was aMarine in the Vietnam War and
came back and basically he wasinjured and had this lingering
pain, even after things healedup, that nobody could really
help him with.
He got kind of frustrated withthat.
The medical system wasn't ableto offer him much other than
(10:17):
drugs, right.
And so basically just out ofpure frustration and curiosity
too, I think, he picked up ananatomy book and started just,
you know, trying to figurethings out on himself.
And the first thing he saw youknow, when you look at any
anatomy book, you see a pictureof our you know our skeletal
(10:38):
system and muscular system andyou see how things are balanced.
We have the same thing on theright and left sides.
You know we're meant to standupright with their joints
stacked above each otherproperly.
And then he looked at thatpicture and realized, hey,
that's, I don't look like thatRight.
So maybe that got the wheelsturning, I think, and basically,
just through his ownexperimentation, was able to
(11:01):
help himself get out of pain.
And so he was his own firstpatient, basically, was able to
then just start helping hisother people he knew, and
eventually became a business inthe early 80s.
But, yeah, no real professionalmedical training per se.
It was all kind of self-taughtand some stuff borrowed from
yoga, from other.
You know his military training,physical education, and so then
(11:25):
it's just grown from there.
He started in San Diego.
That's where the main clinicwas for many years and then now
there's over 20 franchiselocations across the country.
Yeah, there's several books.
Most of our clients have heardof or read the books Pain Free.
It's kind of the most popularone.
It's still.
It's sold over a million copiestoday, I think.
Tom Bulter (11:47):
That's the book that my wife got introduced to and
now has introduced severalpeople to it and you know we'll
open it up and look at theexercises still and you know
it's interesting.
I believe it's pain free.
That has some stories in itabout Peter Goscue and it seemed
(12:13):
like he had this ability.
After developing this,experiencing it, it seemed like
he had this ability of likewatching people and kind of
really diagnosing people bywatching their movements.
By watching their movements andthen some very simple
interventions that made dramaticimprovements.
And so it's really fascinatingand I'm wondering if there are
(12:35):
some core principles behind theAgascu method that you could
focus on.
Zachary Vehrs (12:42):
Yeah, no, it's.
I think a lot of people havethat impression when they start,
you know, whether it's readingthe book or coming into a clinic
and they realize, you know,it's really not rocket science,
like, it's pretty simple, whichis, I think, is part of why it's
so effective, is because it'sreally designed, you know, to
help anybody and it's you know.
(13:05):
The exercises are alsogenerally pretty simple, right?
They're all things that you cando on your own at home, it's.
There's no equipment needed forthe most part.
And so, yeah, the main principleis just that our bodies are
designed to be stackedvertically.
So we have our eight loadbearing joints two shoulders,
two hips, two knees, two ankles.
(13:25):
So if you're looking at yourbody from the front or from the
side, those joints should bevertically aligned with each
other, and then alsohorizontally.
So the shoulders should belevel with each other, hips
should be level, et cetera.
So that creates this rule oflike 90 degree angles where we
can draw a line down the middle.
You know, we've got horizontalalignment, we've got a vertical
alignment.
(13:46):
Pete should point straightahead, me should point straight
ahead.
So that's kind of the core,that's our body's design, and
anything that deviates from thatis a sign of dysfunction, or
our body's compensated forsomething right and it's now in
a different position.
So all we simply try to do isyou know, recognize where those
(14:07):
problems are and then use simplemovements and exercises to
remind our bodies where theyshould be.
You know what the joints shouldbe in relation to each other.
So from the outside, you know alot of the exercises look like
well, you're just laying on thefloor right with your legs up,
or you know you're doing thesesimple movements, but they're so
(14:27):
effective because it's simplyputting our bodies back.
You know where they want to be.
Ultimately, most of us, as youcan imagine, spend too much time
like we are now sitting on ourbutts, right so, and then we go
ride our bike and we're also ina seated position, right, so
it's.
I think one of the coreprinciples is our body is
(14:48):
designed to move right, so wewant.
Movement is good.
We're proponents of all kindsof movement.
I think it's all good, but youdo need a balance and a variety,
right?
If all you do is sit or youspecialize in a sport, you're
probably not getting enoughmovement for all of your joints
in the way that they're supposedto.
So that's what we try to dowith the exercises is kind of
(15:09):
supplement that and say, okay,you're missing out on this
function.
This joint's not, you know,getting moved this way very much
, so we need to, you know, workon that and improve that.
So it's all very tailored aswell.
So and that's another thingabout this method is it's not a
cookie cutter approach.
I know the book has exercisesfor specific things like back
(15:31):
pain, hip pain, knee pain.
When we work with clientsone-on-one, we're able to get
really specific to their bodiesand give them exercises specific
to their posture, not justtreating symptoms.
We can do that when we seewhat's going on in your actual
body.
Tom Bulter (15:46):
You talked about help the body remember its
natural alignment.
It sounds to me like whatyou're saying is that the lives
we live now that there's anelement of programming
misalignment into our bodies.
Is that a fair thing to say oris that too much?
Zachary Vehrs (16:08):
No, I think that's fair.
You know our bodies aredesigned to adapt.
We call it compensating,basically, you know it helps us
survive, right.
So we can adapt to sitting, youknow, in front of a computer
all day.
Now, is that healthy for us inthe long run?
You know, not really.
But our bodies are.
They're always adapting right.
(16:28):
Every, every day, your, yourbody's going to be a little
different.
So, for better or for worse,right.
So you know it's this balanceof we've got to have.
I like to think of it as abalance between the positive
stimulus or things that are, youknow, going to encourage health
, going to encourage range ofmotion and mobility, and, you
know, energy, and then thingsthat don't or kind of take away
(16:51):
from it, right.
So if the balance is too heavy,you know negative stuff, like
sitting in front of a computer,you know, or just being
sedentary in general, then ourposture is going to just adapt
to that right.
We're going to become more thatright.
We're going to become morestiff, we're going to become
more rounded over in ourpostures, right.
So we've got to balance it off,balance it out with something
(17:11):
positive, um, to correct thatright and our bodies, regardless
of our age, you know.
People ask like oh, is there,you know, my grandpa's, 95 years
old, is it too late for him?
I would say no, you know.
Work with people, children, allthe way up to people in their
90s, you know, and as long asyou've got muscles still that
(17:32):
you can, you can use, thenbody's going to adapt to how you
use them.
Tom Bulter (17:37):
How would you differentiate the Goscue method
with traditional physicaltherapy approaches?
Zachary Vehrs (17:43):
OSCU method with traditional physical therapy
approaches.
Yeah, I would say, first of all, there's a lot of similarities
in the sense that we're usingtypically, you know, movements,
exercises, stretches, you know,to correct things.
Big difference, though, is ourapproach is.
I can't speak for all physicaltherapists, because I know
there's a lot of really goodones out there who actually
(18:05):
share the same values andapproaches us.
So, which is great, I'm seeingmore and more of that kind of
holistic approach.
But, just in general, I wouldsay most physical therapy is
still pretty symptom based,meaning they're you go in for
back pain, you got aprescription from your doctor
for your back, right, so you getthis many sessions.
(18:28):
They're really only going tolook at your back and probably
give you some core exercises,maybe some stretches for your
back, but that's kind of it.
They're, in our opinion, goingto miss out on what could be the
actual cause of their back pain, which could be anywhere.
(18:52):
So at Egoscue, you come in withback pain.
We're going to do a, you know,complete assessment and ask the
question of why you know or youhave a herniated disc or you've
got, you know, arthritis,whatever it is.
We say, okay, there's, you know, that's your symptom, that's
your diagnosis.
But we want to find out, youknow, what's underlying
preventing you from gettingbetter, because we know our
bodies can heal, we know we canlive without pain.
(19:12):
So we look at all those jointslike we talked about and we
could see, you know, there maybe a problem all the way down in
your foot, for example, thatmight be causing your back,
because it's, you know, yourankles collapsed in.
That makes one of your pelvisyou know bones sit lower than
the other, which now your back'skind of off off its center
(19:32):
because something all the waydown in your ankle maybe you
never addressed an old sprainedankle, for example.
So that's kind of how weapproach things.
We look, we look at the wholepicture and so the exercise
you're doing could be for anypart of your body, and usually
most parts of your body needsomething.
So it's a kind of a whole bodyapproach and we also don't do
any hands-on like manual therapy, massaging, chiropractic
(19:56):
adjustments or anything.
It's all stuff we can teach youto do for yourself.
So it's really a clientcentered approach.
Tom Bulter (20:19):
I would say, and I imagine you see people like
Peter Goskew.
They've gotten a lot of advice,they've seen a lot of people,
they've tried a lot of thingsfor some chronic condition and
then, in comparison, thealignment exercises, as you
mentioned earlier, can seempretty simple.
And so I'm wondering if wecould talk a little bit about
(20:44):
that concept of a chronicmisalignment and what happens in
people's minds that they justlive with it.
Zachary Vehrs (20:53):
I think that's a great point.
It's really unfortunate becausethere's a lot of people out
there that are in that know theyhave this pain, whatever it is,
and it sometimes has beenaround for years.
You know, I hear this all thetime.
Someone comes in and tells me,you know, they're in their 50s
(21:15):
or 60s and they said, oh, I'vehad back problems since college
or whatever, you know, 40 yearsago.
So it's just crazy that peoplewill just have to suffer through
that pain for so long and theyjust think it's normal right,
because it is normal in thesense that a lot of people deal
with that doesn't mean it'sideal or healthy right, or that
(21:38):
that's how it should be.
That's our opinion.
So there's a lot of factors.
I mean, you know, the most ofwhat they've been told is that,
yeah, there's something brokenor something wrong with them or
it's genetic right, and so a lotof it is kind of they've given
up control of their own health.
(21:58):
Basically, they've kind ofsurrendered that, you know, to
someone else.
The doctor, the expert has toldthem this thing.
So they just kind of give uplike, oh well, you know to
someone else, the doctor, theexpert has told them this thing.
So they just kind of give up,like, oh well, you know, this is
how it's going to be.
They're the expert, not me,right?
So therefore I'm just going tohave to live with this my whole
life.
You know, that's one of thefirst things we try to help
people change in.
(22:19):
There is their mindset of, youknow, you don't have to live in
pain, right?
Most people actually feel somekind of positive results on
their first session, like rightaway, and so that's kind of what
gets people starting to thinkdifferently about starting to
challenge some of these beliefsthat, oh well, I just did a few
exercises and my you know backpain I've had for 20 years is
(22:42):
now better.
Maybe it's not a hundredpercent gone, but it's a level
two pain instead of a level six,right, I still have the
arthritis, I still have theherniated disc.
So why do I feel better, right?
Maybe there's a differentreason I'm hurting, right?
That's what we try to getpeople to understand is you can
change something regardless ofyour condition.
And so, yeah, it's a mind, it'sdefinitely a mind shift,
(23:06):
because they've been conditionedto think that, you know, as you
get older, you're just going todeal with pain, right, that's
just how it goes right.
But yeah, it doesn't have to bethat way.
Tom Bulter (23:16):
Is there an ideal candidate for the Goscue method?
Zachary Vehrs (23:22):
I'd say anybody who wants to live without
limitations, whether it's pain,or most people come to us
because of pain, but noteverybody.
And even once you get rid ofthe pain, that's just the first
step, right, it's now?
Oh great, the back doesn't hurt.
Then it opens up all thesepossibilities.
(23:43):
Then it opens up all thesepossibilities.
Like you know, maybe you'vegiven up skiing or you've given
up running or something, becauseit hurt your knees, for example
, and now the knees don't hurtanymore, so maybe I can try that
activity again, right?
So, um, that's really anybodywho feels like they're limited
but they don't want to be andthey're willing to put in the
(24:05):
effort to change that.
You know it's because it is alifestyle change.
It's not a quick pill that youcan just take.
It does take effort and timenot a lot, honestly but it is a
lifestyle change.
You know, we expect people to,you know, do their exercises
regularly, hopefully every day,and so you have to be willing to
do that.
But I'd say, anybody who'swilling to do that and is open
(24:27):
to you know making some changesand believes that they can get
better, can.
You know, there's very fewconditions.
I've seen where we haven't beenable to offer help.
As long as people are, you know, doing their exercises and you
know being consistent with theirappointments and stuff, then I
think there's a lot ofpossibilities.
So yeah, our average client is,you know, probably in their
(24:52):
fifties, active, you know, hassome kind of lingering chronic
pain that hasn't been solved byother traditional methods and is
looking for kind of a holistic,natural approach.
Maybe they want to avoidsurgery.
They've already had surgery andthey still have this issue.
So unfortunately, a lot oftimes we're people's last resort
.
We're trying to change that sothat it becomes more mainstream
(25:15):
that they try this first, butunfortunately a lot of people
come to us after they've alreadybeen through all the, you know,
physical therapists andchiropractic and prescription
pain medications.
Tom Bulter (25:26):
Yeah, and I think that there is a element of a
mindset here, you know, whereit's not a situation where it's
a traditional disease model thatyou're functioning out of.
It's a situation of reallyeverybody needs to be in
(25:47):
alignment.
You know, as life programs us inmisalignment ways, then we need
to have those strategies of how, as you said earlier, remember
that alignment, get the body toremember where the optimal
functioning is.
And so you know, it's a reallydifferent mindset, which I think
(26:10):
is the mindset that we need forthe future of optimal health,
is that mindset of doing thethings, not waiting for symptoms
, not waiting for a breakdown,but doing things that we know,
that are preventative and thatsupport optimal functioning.
Zachary Vehrs (26:29):
Yeah, no, that's, that's right.
And I think a lot of people, Ithink well, you could argue, I
guess everybody probablyintuitively knows what they
should be doing and knows thattheir posture is bad.
You know, knows that theirposture is bad, you know, and
(26:50):
they just again, they've been,they've been told all these
other things so that they kindof forget, or they or they don't
trust their own you know,intuition, that you know this is
something they need to do.
It's crazy how many peopleactually, when you may be
familiar with the static backexercise where you're you're
laying on the floor just flat onyour back with your knees bent,
so your legs are up at kind ofa 90 degree angle, with your
legs up on a chair or couchmaybe.
(27:12):
So that's a common exercise wedo.
And, um, you'd be surprised howmany times you know, first
appointment, or whenever I firstgive that exercise to someone,
that they'll tell me oh yeah, Ialready, I do this whenever my
back hurts because it feels goodlike never.
No one's ever told them to dothat.
That just like a naturalinstinct to get on, get on the
floor and put your legs up.
So I think a lot of people,intuitively, you know, know some
(27:35):
of this stuff and recognizethat it feels good to do these
things.
But it's just a matter of umrecognizing it and then you know
being consistent with it, Iguess.
Tom Bulter (27:45):
But I'm thinking that there must be some times
where there's some damage orsomething you know, a break or
something that's torn, thatthere something needs to heal
before they're going to get themost out of the exercises.
How would you talk about thataspect?
Zachary Vehrs (28:07):
Oh yeah, for sure .
I mean, we don't claim to, youknow, take away from or replace
all the great medicalpractitioners, you know, whether
it's a surgeon or physicaltherapist, I think if you have
an injury, you know an acuteinjury, that's we definitely.
You know, we want you to takecare of that.
However, you need to and getthe healing done.
A lot of times Egoscue can helpsupplement, you know, while you
(28:32):
are recovering from an accidentor surgery or something you
know I.
Still, a lot of times you cando both, right.
So I work with people all thetime who do that.
I work with people all the timewho do that.
They have their, you know,physical therapy exercises or
they have, you know, they see achiropractor, for example.
Nicoscu just helps, I think,make their job easier, right?
(28:56):
So if we can do some things tohelp get our bodies into a
better position, I think it'sgoing to help you heal quicker,
you know.
You know same with surgeries.
So we're not necessarilyanti-surgery.
I mean, we don't think youshould have surgery if you don't
, if you don't absolutely needit, right, but ultimately that's
the client's decision.
So I've worked with people, youknow, before surgeries or
(29:19):
afterwards, or maybe they've aretrying to prevent having to
have, like a knee replacement ora hip replacement, for example,
back surgery.
So whether they have the surgeryor not, though you know the
alignment is going to be thesame, or may actually it's going
to change after the surgeryactually.
But you know.
So we still want to, whereveryou are along that timeline, you
(29:40):
still want to make sure thatyou're having the best possible
posture so that you can get themost out of those treatments and
then also hopefully preventstuff down the road Cause you
hear this a lot where someonegets multiple back surgeries,
right, they fix a disc or theytake out that bulging disc and
then the disc above iteventually starts to fail, right
(30:02):
, and you just have this cascadeof surgeries which you know we
can hopefully want to avoid,right.
So so, yeah, no, we tend todeal more with the chronic stuff
.
So if you go out and sprainyour ankle or tear your ACL over
the weekend like, that's notthe type of stuff we typically
deal with it's usually the stuffthat's been for months or, like
(30:26):
I said, even years for mostpeople.
Tom Bulter (30:28):
Seems like if I'm living a life out of alignment
and I've not thought about that,I've not done anything about
that.
It seems like the older I get,there's going to be kind of like
a compounding impact of that,as I ignore the pain and I've
not fixed anything as far as myposture is concerned and I just
(30:50):
ignore more pain.
Is that kind of fit with whatyou see?
Zachary Vehrs (30:55):
Yeah.
So again, a lot of people willblame their problems on their
age, which is not entirelyaccurate, right, because it's
really just it's.
The problem is still theimbalance or the misalignment in
their posture.
It's just, the more years youhave in that position, the more
chances you have of getting hurtand your body will start to
(31:18):
have to.
You know, if you're notlistening to that original
signal of hey, you knowsomething's wrong.
Well, what does your body do?
It just turns up that signal,right, pain's got to get worse
and worse until eventually,maybe you'll finally listen to
it when you hit rock bottom,right?
Yeah.
So age isn't necessarily theproblem.
But you're right, if leftunchecked, then things tend to
(31:41):
get worse if you're not tryingto fix them, right?
So again, with the analogy ofthe car check engine light on
your car, it may come on andyour car may seemingly still be
running fine, right, becausenothing's catastrophically
broken.
Yet Maybe a sensor just wentbad or isn't receiving a good
signal.
You know, something simplestill works fine.
(32:03):
So maybe you ignore it.
But eventually, down the road,you know it's likely that
something else will fail, or orthat failure will cause more
damage than than it would haveif you had fixed it earlier,
right?
So I think it's the same withour bodies, right.
We want to listen to thosesignals as soon as we can, but
it's never really too late.
So, like I said, I've workedwith people of all ages and all
(32:25):
kinds of different diagnoses andI think you can always make
improvement.
The sooner you start, thebetter you know, as with most
things.
Tom Bulter (32:34):
Can you talk about what a typical Agosku session
would look like?
Zachary Vehrs (32:40):
Yeah, so it's all one-on-one.
So it's all one-on-one.
So we typically sit down withpeople and chat about their
health history, what theirproblems are, what their goals
are, what they're looking toachieve, and then we go through
an assessment of their posture.
So we take photos so that theclient can see exactly what's
(33:01):
going on, put them in oursoftware, which allows us to
identify where each of thosejoints are in relation to each
other, so you can see reallyclearly oh, one shoulder is
higher than the other, or mybody's twisting, or this foot
doesn't point the same directionas the other foot all these
things we can see in the photos.
And then we also look at howyou move.
(33:23):
So we look at walking gaitTypically.
We might do a few other simplemovements like bending over to
touch your toes or balancing onone foot, that kind of stuff,
just to kind of confirm where wethink problems are.
And so that's really the firststep is the assessment and also
the education aspect of you know, helping the person understand
exactly what's going on, becauseup until this point they may
(33:46):
have they may have been toseveral professionals who give
them different you knowdiagnoses and things, but never
really told them the why right.
So that's our goal on day oneis to help people understand why
they have this pain and thenshow them what they can do about
it.
So so then, after we do theassessment based on the posture
that they have and thelimitations we find, then
(34:09):
exercises are tailoredspecifically to those
misalignments or weaknesses thatwe find.
So then we'll take them throughthe exercises, you know, show
them how to do it.
The form is really important,so we're meticulous about, you
know, having good form and if wewant to get the most out of it.
And then the client goes homewith all their we call it a menu
(34:30):
.
It's a series of exercises thatthey do.
Our app allows them to log inand see all the instructions.
There's videos and pictures tohelp them, you know, do the
exercises successfully at home,do the exercises successfully at
home, and so they then go homeand do their exercises.
Typically takes, you know, 20 to30 minutes a day.
(34:51):
Some people do more, somepeople do less, but that's
pretty average.
It just kind of depends on whatyou need, of course, but so the
appointments are typically anhour long, one-on-one, and we
meet with people generally oncea week.
In the beginning sometimestwice a week, but eventually get
to a point where you're.
You know you've made a lot ofinitial improvement.
(35:14):
Pain is now better, yourposture is better.
Our focus starts to shift moretowards strengthening and then
just kind of maintaining.
Once you get to that pointwhere your limitations are no
longer an issue, we don't needto meet as often, so we kind of
taper it off and meet maybe oncea month or something.
You know, the idea is to createindependence, not dependence on
(35:34):
us.
We want to teach people thethings they need to do to take
care of themselves.
Tom Bulter (35:38):
Ultimately, yeah, as you're talking about it,
there's something that comes tomy mind and that's the bike
fitting that I did In the past.
I never thought that a bikefitting would be something that
I need to do.
I thought that's probablysomething that professional
cyclists do.
And then I ended up having abike fitting done and now I'm
like, wow, that was a reallyvaluable investment for me to
(36:01):
make my handlebars removed outso that there was better
alignment with my shoulders.
There were spacers put in mypedals so that my feet were
moved out.
There was an element ofalignment going on as far as you
know, sitting on the bike, andso it seems like cyclists can
(36:22):
kind of relate a bit to thoseconcepts of alignment just from
that thought about being inrepetitive motion on a bike and
then being out of alignment andwhat that can do yeah, no,
that's, that's exactly right.
Zachary Vehrs (36:36):
Not much of a cyclist myself.
I used to, you know, I wouldcycle to work back when I lived
in portland.
Um, I that I and I would ridemy bike as a child and things,
but I haven't so much.
Since living in Seattle,actually, my bike got stolen the
first.
I think it was the first monthI lived here my bike was stolen.
I was unfortunate, so, um,that's terrible.
(37:00):
I mean, it was a cheap bike atleast, so hopefully they needed
it more than me.
I mean, it makes sense.
And you know, if you think about, let's say, on, you're on your
bike and your handlebars arecrooked or maybe one, you know,
I mean, just imagine if yourpedals weren't symmetrical,
right like if one pedal turnedout more or was a different size
(37:20):
, or you know just anything.
That was different on yourright and left side.
It's going to cause problems,right like uh, and just apply
that was different on your rightand left side.
It's going to cause problems,right Like uh, and just apply
that to your body.
You know, if you have, let's say, one, you look down, you're
standing in front of a mirrorand one of your legs, your foot
or maybe your knee, or maybeboth turns out and the other one
is pointing straight ahead.
(37:40):
Like it's supposed to thinkabout all the thousands of steps
you take a day.
Or if you're pedaling, you knowthousands of pedal strokes.
You add that up over the years,millions of times.
You're moving in thisasymmetrical pattern, like it
makes sense that something'sgoing to eventually break right
or wear out or at minimum hurtright.
Like I said, it's not rocketscience, it's pretty common
(38:02):
sense once you start thinkingabout it.
It's just unfortunately not socommon in today's medical system
.
Tom Bulter (38:09):
Fortunately, you talked about some of the
exercises and you know thatthere's a real focus on
self-care.
These, you know.
What I've seen is that they'reeasy to do with just things that
you have around the house.
Is it specifically designedthat way or, you know, did it
just kind of end up that way?
Zachary Vehrs (38:30):
It's a good question, I mean, I think.
I think it's designed that way.
The simplicity of it, I think,is part of why it's so
sustainable, right, Like youdon't have to, anybody can do it
and you can pretty much do itanywhere, right?
That's the beauty of it, is youreally just need your body?
I mean, the equipment we havehere you were to see my clinic
(38:53):
is pretty minimal.
We, we basically have the floor, the walls, some blocks that
are basically at home.
You, most people use a chair,maybe a small cushion off their
couch.
That's about it, you know.
So it's really designed to besimple and we just focus a lot
on those principles of rightangles and you know vertical and
(39:16):
horizontal alignment.
So a lot of that we can dowithout any fancy equipment.
Tom Bulter (39:21):
My wife does have a fancy tower, oh yeah, the tower
Nice.
But it seems like that is morejust for convenience.
I guess the necessity, I think,is the right way to say that.
Zachary Vehrs (39:34):
Yeah, yeah, the tower for the listeners.
It's a device where youbasically typically how you use
it is, you're laying on thefloor.
You can strap one or bothactually both feet, into this
like foot pedal, and then it'sattached to this wooden tower.
It's about what?
24 inches high, I think, so youcan basically lay on your back
(39:56):
and elevate one of or both ofyour legs into the tower, but
then there's different levels toit, so notches on this tower so
you can kind of lower your legcloser to the ground.
And we usually use it to help.
Primarily it's it's good forreleasing like tightness and
your hip flexors.
So, as you know, it's kind of acommon way to use that, so good
(40:17):
if you've got really tight hipsand good for your back to.
You know you're laying on thefloor on your back, so it helps
to release, um change your spineand hip position basically.
But the tower didn't come alonguntil years after Pete came up
with that stretch.
I think originally you werejust laying on the floor with
one leg up on a chair and theother leg straight, either on
(40:38):
the ground or elevated onanother chair with your knee
extended.
So yeah, there's ways of doingit without that, but the tower
definitely makes it easier.
Tom Bulter (40:47):
As you're talking about it, you know and this is
not my first exposure to it, butmaybe some people it is you
know you're not talking aboutanything strange or radical or
anything, but I'm wondering if,as you're out in the world, you
know people ask you what you dothings like that.
Do you face some skepticismabout the method?
Zachary Vehrs (41:10):
Oh yeah, definitely.
I mean I would say I mean a lotof people are just naturally
skeptical, right for anythingthat they're not familiar with,
so that's normal, but I meanmost people, I would say once
they try it, I think a lot ofthat skepticism goes away
because they see and feel howeffective it is Right.
(41:30):
So sometimes it's as simple aswell.
You got to just try it.
Ultimately, if you want to seethat, the proof is in the
pudding, right.
But I, you know you do run intothat where you start to tell
people about what you do and formost people they like you, you
know, agree that it's.
Oh, it makes sense, right,common sense, your body should
be lined up a certain way, andall this stuff.
(41:51):
But you do get some pushbackfrom people who are a little
more.
They want to see, you know, wecall them fact finders, where
it's like, well, what's the?
You know, has there beenresearch on this?
And how come, you know, know,insurance doesn't pay for it if
it's legit, right?
Like how come my doctor doesn'tdo this, right?
So there's a lot of that where,you know, they're used to the
(42:15):
western medical system being,you know, kind of the authority,
right, and so if it doesn'tfall under under that, then it
must not be true, right?
So you know, everybody's got tobe willing to, I think, be
curious about it and try it outif they want to really be a good
judge of it.
Because that's ultimately, whatmatters is, if it works, it
(42:36):
works.
If it doesn't, it doesn't.
But so, um, something, I wasthinking if you wanted me to
kind of take you through just asample exercise, something that
we can do here.
I know your listeners can't see, but this is something that we
can just describe and that Ithink anybody could try as just
something to kind of feel thekind of thing that we do.
(42:58):
I love it.
Yeah, maybe I'll.
I'll have you do this with mehere.
Okay, describe what we're doing.
So we're just going to stand up.
I don't know if you keep allmade here because you've got
their mic there.
Oh, it was perfect, okay.
Tom Bulter (43:15):
You're not going to be able to see me, but that's
okay.
Zachary Vehrs (43:19):
So you're going to stand up, preferably do this
barefoot, and if you have shoeson right now, that's fine.
But the first thing you'regoing to do?
If you look down at your feet,most of us, our feet don't point
exactly straight like they'resupposed to, so we're actually
going to kind of overcorrect andgo pigeon toed.
So I want you to touch your bigtoes together in the middle and
your heels are now spread out,so your feet are kind of maybe
(43:41):
pointing in like a 45 degrees ateach other.
Tom Bulter (43:43):
Okay, Got it.
Zachary Vehrs (43:44):
Well then I want you to tighten up your quads.
So lock your knees.
So no bend in the knees.
So tighten up your quads, keepyour knees locked, okay.
So just doing that, and a lotof your listeners might feel a
little uncomfortable, like it'smaybe some tightness in their
hips, especially if they'recycling a lot.
This is going to challenge someof their joints, but it
(44:06):
shouldn't be painful, but it'sokay if it feels a little stiff.
So now take your hands and justinterlace your fingers and kind
of cup the back of your head.
So just put your hands behindyour head, fingers interlaced
all the way together, and thenpull your elbows back.
So try to pull your elbows backand look straight ahead, and
we're just going to hold this,so there's no movement.
(44:28):
We're just going to keepfocusing on tightening up our
quads, keeping our elbows pulledback.
Okay, and Tom, maybe you candescribe what you're feeling so
far as you're doing this.
Tom Bulter (44:38):
Well, I am feeling tightness in between my
shoulders.
I'm feeling quite a bit oftightness in my mid-back, but
I'm not feeling it too much inmy hips.
Really not much in my hips atall, but mostly kind of my upper
back in between my shoulderblades and then kind of mid-back
.
Zachary Vehrs (44:59):
Perfect.
Yeah, well, that's.
Yeah, everybody's going to feelit maybe a little bit
differently, but that's yeah.
Well, that's.
Yeah, everybody's going to feelit maybe a little bit
differently, but that's thisexercise is.
It kind of addresses two of themain areas that most people
have issues, especially cyclists.
Right, where we're stuck inflexion, where we're bent
forward, you know, our shouldersare rounded, our upper back is
typically rounded forward andwe're also in a seated position,
(45:21):
so our hips are kind of in aclosed or flexed position.
So that position we just did isthe opposite.
Right, your hips are nowextended, your legs are straight
and then the hands behind theirhead gets your upper back to
straighten out.
So it kind of takes you out ofthat rounded forward kyphosis,
you know, and gives you a littlemore extension in your upper
back, pulls your shoulders back.
(45:43):
It helps actually get your headback in alignment, in alignment
with your shoulders.
You know you're feeling itprobably where your, where your
weak spot is, which is that midto upper back, right.
Tom Bulter (45:53):
So yeah, and again, I think you know what you're
saying.
Just another example ofsomething that just makes total
sense, because talked about thiswith other people on the show
and you know I'm forward, I'mtyping, you know my chest is
kind of in and I get on the bikeand I'm, my chest is still in
(46:14):
and I'm, I'm bent over more andit's, you know, it's that closed
motion.
So so that's the kind of thingthat I think is important for me
and I, you, you know, I think alot of cyclists.
Zachary Vehrs (46:25):
Yeah, no, I would encourage your listeners to do
that exercise and hold it for aminute.
I mean you could hold it forlonger if you want, but a minute
should be plenty.
You can do that before you geton the bike.
After you get off the bike,maybe, you know, take a little
breaks throughout your day Ifyou're working on a computer,
you know.
That's just something that'sreal simple, doesn't require any
equipment.
You just just standing thereand that'll give you an instant
(46:49):
positive impact on your posture.
So see how you feel before andthen how you feel immediately,
immediately afterwards, and Ican guarantee you most people
are going to feel, feel a littlebit better just from doing that
I was touching my toes andflexing my quads.
Tom Bulter (47:05):
If I was feeling a lot of tightness, do you back
off?
Do you have your toes nottouching, do you?
Zachary Vehrs (47:13):
Yeah, you want to listen to your body, right.
So if it just can't, if you'rejust really that tight that you
can't get your toes to pointinward and touch in the middle,
then just do the best you can,right.
So even if you just have tostart with the feet pointing
straight, cause some people youknow they're walking around, you
know, like ducks, right, buttheir feet turned out 45 degrees
.
So turning them in is like ahuge difference, a huge change
(47:36):
to ask.
So so we might have to juststart by turning them in a
little bit so that they'reactually parallel, like they be,
and then maybe work towardspointing them in the same with
the hands behind the head.
I mean, if you've got like aactive rotator, cuff, kick, tear
or something and that positionis painful, then we don't want
to aggravate it, right?
So this is just an example ofsomething you know.
(47:57):
But obviously each individualwork we want to tailor to their
to.
Yeah, general rule of thumbdon't push it if it causes more
pain.
You know, a little bit ofdiscomfort or fatigue or muscle
tension or even cramping is notbad, but if it actually hurts
more when you're done than itdid before, probably not the
(48:19):
best thing for you right now.
Tom Bulter (48:21):
You mentioned insurance and I'm thinking that
it's not typical that you wouldhave insurance pay for Egoscue
treatment.
Is that fair to say?
Zachary Vehrs (48:32):
Yeah, that's correct.
So if you have a health savingsaccount or a flex spending
account, usually that can beused to pay for it, but
otherwise we just we don't workwith insurance, or I should say
insurance doesn't work with us.
So so yeah, it's out of pocket.
Just to give you an idea, weoffer a couple different
programs.
You know, since this issomething that, as you can
(48:54):
imagine, isn't typically just aone and done deal, you know it's
a process.
So we offer packages of eithereight or 16 sessions.
We offer packages of eithereight or 16 sessions.
So it's basically, you know,we're meeting with people weekly
, so our eight session programis typically like two months.
So that's usually enough timeto really make a significant
(49:14):
change on people's problems thatthey're coming in with, and so
the price of the eight visitpackage is $16.45.
And then there's also a 16session package.
You know, if we decide you needmore than that, it's $27.45.
So if you do the math, it's abit cheaper per session with the
(49:38):
larger package, but that's fornew clients.
And then if you need morebeyond that, you know, as an
existing client, the prices dogo down a bit as you get into
more of that.
We call thrive where you're,you know, continuing to maintain
the progress, but maybe meetingless often.
The prices go down a bit afterthat.
Tom Bulter (49:53):
It sounds like you're part of a network of
Egoscue practitioners across theUS.
Is that right?
Zachary Vehrs (50:01):
Yeah, us, is that right?
Yeah, so it's a franchise,which means everything is pretty
standardized.
As far as you could go to anyEgoscue clinic across the
country, you're going to get thesame treatment, same software,
the same price, the same results.
I mean therapists are going tobe different, obviously, and
everybody has their own kind ofstyle and personalities, but the
(50:23):
method is the same andprocedures are the same, so you
can expect the same quality anylocation you go to.
So, and that's nice.
So some people travel, or maybethey, you know, spend summers
and winters in different homes,and so they may go to different
clinics for their treatment.
And if you do have a programwith us, it's transferable
between those locations.
(50:44):
Or if you move, for example,and you still have sessions left
to use, they transfer to otherEgoscue franchise locations.
Tom Bulter (50:54):
People can go to egoscuecom.
Is that a place?
Zachary Vehrs (50:58):
to start.
Yeah, that's the place, it'segoscue-O-S-C-U-E dot com.
Tom Bulter (51:05):
And I'll put a link to that in the show notes.
Anything else that you canthink that people should be
aware of or you'd like people toknow about, consider when
they're thinking about theGoscue method.
Zachary Vehrs (51:18):
If this is resonating with you, you know,
and you feel like you've gotthis lingering issue that maybe
you've been dealing with for along time or even a short time,
maybe it's a new injury orsomething that's preventing you
from doing the thing you love todo.
I would just encourage you togive it a try.
You know, just believe in yourbody's ability to get better and
that if you put in the effortand with a little extra guidance
(51:42):
from us, we can work together,you know, as a team, to help you
figure out what you need to doto get better, and seen a lot,
of, a lot of success for peoplethat have been told otherwise.
Tom Bulter (51:52):
So never give up hope I love that part of the
story where someone you knowwould come in and if they're
dealing with something for along time, and you know, I would
think there'd be a lot ofpeople you know, and I kind of
put myself in this category too.
I have to be really transparent.
It's like it just seems tooeasy, right, it just seems like
(52:13):
it's.
You know, it's such a basicthing get in alignment and so to
have someone try something thatis relatively easy, something
they can do at home, somethingthey can learn and then keep up
with and you know, every daythat they're doing.
it kind of builds the builds orbodies, remembrance of you know
(52:34):
how to stay in alignment andit's just, it's gotta be
wonderful times.
Zachary Vehrs (52:39):
Yeah, no, it really is.
I'm really glad I get to dothis and I find it a privilege
to be able to help people likethat and that's what brings me a
lot of satisfaction and joy.
And what I do is just seeingpeople, you know, have that
moment of like oh, I can do thisthing now.
I can play with my grandkidsagain, or I can go back on the
bike that I haven't been able tofor years and, you know,
(53:01):
basically living their lives theway that they want to again.
It's really fulfilling.
So it's my privilege.
I don't take credit very oftenfor that, you know, because
ultimately, they're doing allthe hard work each day.
I'm just giving them someexercises to do.
Tom Bulter (53:19):
Zach, thank you so much for taking the time to come
on and share with us.
You so much for taking the timeto come on and share with us.
And again, I'd encourageanybody to just go to agoscucom
and there's a place there thatyou can click on to try Agoscu
and to go through that processand connect with someone like
Zach.
So thanks, Zach, for coming on.
Zachary Vehrs (53:41):
All right, thank you, it was great.
Tom Bulter (53:43):
Talk to you later.
I'm going to set up anappointment with Zach and have
him do an assessment of myalignment.
Right now I'm about ascommitted to working on
flexibility as I ever have been,and I think that using the
(54:04):
Agoscue method will provideanother layer of benefit to
becoming more limber.
I will definitely keep youposted on how Agoscue helps with
my progress.
We have been having someincredible weather here in the
Pacific Northwest lately.
I hope you are finding theconditions awesome or at least
tolerable, or you are.
Please keep the pictures comingon the Cycling Over 60 Strava
(54:24):
Club.
I really enjoy seeing picturesof bikes and scenery and
especially your smiling faces.
And remember, age is just agear change.
This is the Cycling Over 60 Podcast, season 2,
episode 52, the Goscue Method,and I'm your host, tom Butler.
Welcome back to the podcast.
(00:25):
This is where I share myjourney to get and stay fit
later in life.
I share my personal journeyhere and I also record
conversations with the peoplehelping me along that journey.
My hope is that you hearsomething as you listen that
informs or inspires you.
One of the things I've talkedabout here is that I'm very
annoyed with the fact that thebridge is out on my local bike
(00:47):
trail.
Having that bridge out cuts meoff from my favorite routes from
home.
But this week I did someexploring and I found an awesome
new route.
The route is 33.32 miles longwith 1,330 feet of elevation
gain.
An interesting thing about theride is that it has three main
(01:07):
climbs.
As I ride away from home, eachclimb gets progressively harder.
Then I hit the turnaround pointand do the climbs in reverse,
so that means I go from harderto easier on the way back.
I really like that progression.
Now the hardest climb is notvery long, but it is steep
enough to push me to my limit.
Right now I consider a heartrate of 170 beats per minute as
(01:31):
90% of my max heart rate.
If I get above 170 on a climb,I will step off and let my heart
rate recover.
The first time I rode up thesteepest part of my new route, I
had to step off about 50 yardsfrom the top.
Up the steepest part of my newroute, I had to step off about
50 yards from the top, but afterthat I knew the climb better
and I was able to make it to thetop of the climb, as I hit 170
beats per minute.
(01:52):
All in all, I see this as aperfect route, giving me what I
need to build up my cyclingstrength and endurance right now
.
I hadn't fallen with my bikeonce in the last two years until
the other day, and then Imanaged to go down two rides in
a row.
In both cases I was basicallystopped, so I only got scratched
(02:12):
up a little.
The second time I fell was ongravel.
I wish someone could have beenthere to see how I almost pulled
off a spectacular save beforemy wheel slid out from under me.
I don't know about you, but Isee falling with a bike as a bit
of an art, and while it mightsound strange, I'm kind of glad
that I went down.
I was hardly hurt at all andyet I have that practice in case
(02:34):
I go down again in not such asafe situation.
The first time I fell, I whackedmy helmet on the pavement
enough to leave a dent in theback of it.
I've always heard that youshould replace a helmet if you
damage it, so even though thedent is small, I will probably
get a new helmet.
I recently saw a post that madeit look like white helmets are
cooler than black helmets in thehot sun.
(02:55):
The helmet that I will bereplacing is black, but I don't
think I've ever felt like it waswarm on a hot day.
But what they showed in thepost was enough that I think I
will replace it with a whitehelmet.
I would love to hear whathelmet you would recommend.
I have only started looking fora replacement, but it's hard
for me to wade through all therecommendations.
If you have a favorite helmet,let me know.
(03:17):
You can find my email and showInstagram in the show notes Plus
.
My favorite place forinteraction is the Cycling Over
60 Strava Club.
Please consider joining theclub and dropping a helmet
recommendation there.
I'm continuing to plan out theride I am doing across the state
of Washington in September.
I changed my mind recentlyabout lodging.
(03:37):
We were thinking of renting acamper van, but as I looked at
different models I felt like thevan wasn't going to be as
convenient as I originallythought, so that has led me back
to looking for hotels and otherrooms to book.
I do think I have found somecool places to stay, but of
course I need to see what mywife Kelly thinks before moving
forward.
One of the key aspects of thetrip is going to be how to
(03:59):
handle water.
Looking over the route, I amsurprised at how remote a lot of
the writing will be.
Currently, I am planning oncarrying enough water to make it
40 miles before refilling Forme.
I think I need to carry 96ounces of water to make sure on
a hot day I can go 40 miles.
You might be wondering why I'mworried about this when I have
Kelly driving in support.
(04:19):
The problem is that I'm notsure that there will be any cell
coverage on the remote sections.
That would make it hard tocommunicate where she should
meet me.
The situation with cellcoverage is something that I'd
really like to figure out,because I would feel much more
secure knowing that I could callher if I needed some assistance
.
When I pull up the Verizoncoverage map, there is a
gigantic hole in the coveragethat includes where I will be
(04:42):
riding.
A somewhat unique threat to myride that I have absolutely no
control over is the risk ofwildfire.
In fact, state Route 20, whichis the road I will be on for
most of the ride just reopenedtoday after being closed for a
while because of a fire.
I actually know someone who hadto cancel their bike trip on
(05:02):
State Route 20 just the otherday because the highway was
closed.
That would be extremelydisappointing.
I will just have to hope thatwe get some significant rain
before the second week ofSeptember.
(05:22):
I think I've mentioned thisbefore, but if not, kelly is
constantly studying what ourbodies need to stay fit.
A few years ago, she startedtalking about Egoscue.
She feels like it really helpedher with some chronic joint
pain.
I mentioned a couple weeks agothat once again I got pushed by
a health professional to work onmy flexibility.
I decided this week to have aconversation about Egoscue, and
(05:43):
Zachary Veers from EgoscueSeattle agreed to answer some
questions.
Here is our discussion.
I'm excited to introducelisteners to my guest today.
Thank you, zachary Veers, forjoining me.
Thanks, tom.
Thanks for having me.
Zach, you are the owner anddirector of Egoscue Seattle.
Zachary Vehrs (06:00):
I think a lot of people haven't heard of Egoscue,
my wife Kelly, has been anadvocate in our home for the
Egoscue method for a while and Iwanted listeners to know about
it.
Awesome, yeah.
Well, I'm happy to share what Iknow here.
Just a little bit of background.
I've been doing this in Seattlefor about eight years now.
(06:24):
I own my own practice here.
Before that I was working as anEgoscue therapist in Portland.
They had a clinic down there.
That's kind of where I got mystart.
But before that so how I gotintroduced to this, I studied
exercise science in college.
I was a personal trainer tryingto figure out what I wanted to
do with.
When I grew up, I was alwayskind of into like functional
(06:47):
fitness.
You know this idea of usingmovements and exercises to
improve you know how our bodiesfunction and how we feel.
Not just you know how we lookand strength, but our functions.
So one of my professorsintroduced me to this method.
The Egoscue method, which isbasically the foundation of this
(07:07):
method, is all on posture.
So the idea is that you know ifyou have chronic pain or
limitations, that it's, for themost part, you know barring some
kind of you know birth defector if you've been hit by a truck
or something that most of ourchronic aches and pains are due
(07:29):
to our bodies being out ofbalance, meaning our posture is
compromised, our muscles are notdoing what they're supposed to,
the joints aren't moving theway they're supposed to, and so
we develop these less than idealpatterns, you know, and those
can eventually lead to injuriesor just chronic pain, and we
view pain as simply your body'sway of talking to you.
(07:50):
So it's, it's a way for yourbody to tell us hey, you know,
pay attention, something's notworking the way it's supposed to
.
It doesn't necessarily meanyou're broken or that it's
beyond repair.
It just means it's like awarning light, you know, check
engine light on your car.
That's how I think of it.
So, anyway, I really liked thisidea and thought, as a trainer,
(08:11):
like, oh, I could do this.
This would be a great way forme to help service, to provide
for my clients.
But of course, this is for oldpeople though, right, like I'm,
I don't need this.
I'm a invincible 20 somethingyear-year-old, right?
Well, it turns out I played alot of racquetball in college
and grad school and I startedhaving my own back and shoulder
(08:34):
problems and I thought, well,maybe I should give this Egoscue
a shot.
And so my professor you know, hegave a little assessment on me
looked at my posture and I wasreally clear as soon as I saw my
photos.
How you know, my head wasforward, my torso was completely
stuck in a rotated position, somy spine was twisted, among
(08:55):
other things.
And so then it just made senseLike it wasn't the racquetball's
fault that I hurt, I wasbringing a body to the court
that was, you know, out ofalignment and and just kind of
prone for injury, right, andthat's kind of the approach we
take with you, goscue, whetherit's racquetball or, you know,
cycling in this case, uh, orreally any activity, our bodies
(09:16):
are designed to do that stuff.
It's just we have to, um, wehave to make sure we're bringing
a balanced body to the activityif we want to be able to, you
know, do those things and enjoythem without pain.
So I started doing theexercises and, as you can
imagine, felt better, got meback on my feet playing
racquetball without any issuesafter that, and that's kind of
(09:37):
what got me started, and so Ibecame certified and wanted to
help other people achieve thesame thing.
So here I am, 10 plus yearslater.
Tom Bulter (09:47):
Well, there is a key figure, Edie Goskew.
I wonder if you could talk alittle bit about who he is.
Zachary Vehrs (09:53):
Yeah, so Pete, that's where the name of the
method comes from he was aMarine in the Vietnam War and
came back and basically he wasinjured and had this lingering
pain, even after things healedup, that nobody could really
help him with.
He got kind of frustrated withthat.
The medical system wasn't ableto offer him much other than
(10:17):
drugs, right.
And so basically just out ofpure frustration and curiosity
too, I think, he picked up ananatomy book and started just,
you know, trying to figurethings out on himself.
And the first thing he saw youknow, when you look at any
anatomy book, you see a pictureof our you know our skeletal
(10:38):
system and muscular system andyou see how things are balanced.
We have the same thing on theright and left sides.
You know we're meant to standupright with their joints
stacked above each otherproperly.
And then he looked at thatpicture and realized, hey,
that's, I don't look like thatRight.
So maybe that got the wheelsturning, I think, and basically,
just through his ownexperimentation, was able to
(11:01):
help himself get out of pain.
And so he was his own firstpatient, basically, was able to
then just start helping hisother people he knew, and
eventually became a business inthe early 80s.
But, yeah, no real professionalmedical training per se.
It was all kind of self-taughtand some stuff borrowed from
yoga, from other.
You know his military training,physical education, and so then
(11:25):
it's just grown from there.
He started in San Diego.
That's where the main clinicwas for many years and then now
there's over 20 franchiselocations across the country.
Yeah, there's several books.
Most of our clients have heardof or read the books Pain Free.
It's kind of the most popularone.
It's still.
It's sold over a million copiestoday, I think.
Tom Bulter (11:47):
That's the book that my wife got introduced to and
now has introduced severalpeople to it and you know we'll
open it up and look at theexercises still and you know
it's interesting.
I believe it's pain free.
That has some stories in itabout Peter Goscue and it seemed
(12:13):
like he had this ability.
After developing this,experiencing it, it seemed like
he had this ability of likewatching people and kind of
really diagnosing people bywatching their movements.
By watching their movements andthen some very simple
interventions that made dramaticimprovements.
And so it's really fascinatingand I'm wondering if there are
(12:35):
some core principles behind theAgascu method that you could
focus on.
Zachary Vehrs (12:42):
Yeah, no, it's.
I think a lot of people havethat impression when they start,
you know, whether it's readingthe book or coming into a clinic
and they realize, you know,it's really not rocket science,
like, it's pretty simple, whichis, I think, is part of why it's
so effective, is because it'sreally designed, you know, to
help anybody and it's you know.
(13:05):
The exercises are alsogenerally pretty simple, right?
They're all things that you cando on your own at home, it's.
There's no equipment needed forthe most part.
And so, yeah, the main principleis just that our bodies are
designed to be stackedvertically.
So we have our eight loadbearing joints two shoulders,
two hips, two knees, two ankles.
(13:25):
So if you're looking at yourbody from the front or from the
side, those joints should bevertically aligned with each
other, and then alsohorizontally.
So the shoulders should belevel with each other, hips
should be level, et cetera.
So that creates this rule oflike 90 degree angles where we
can draw a line down the middle.
You know, we've got horizontalalignment, we've got a vertical
alignment.
(13:46):
Pete should point straightahead, me should point straight
ahead.
So that's kind of the core,that's our body's design, and
anything that deviates from thatis a sign of dysfunction, or
our body's compensated forsomething right and it's now in
a different position.
So all we simply try to do isyou know, recognize where those
(14:07):
problems are and then use simplemovements and exercises to
remind our bodies where theyshould be.
You know what the joints shouldbe in relation to each other.
So from the outside, you know alot of the exercises look like
well, you're just laying on thefloor right with your legs up,
or you know you're doing thesesimple movements, but they're so
(14:27):
effective because it's simplyputting our bodies back.
You know where they want to be.
Ultimately, most of us, as youcan imagine, spend too much time
like we are now sitting on ourbutts, right so, and then we go
ride our bike and we're also ina seated position, right, so
it's.
I think one of the coreprinciples is our body is
(14:48):
designed to move right, so wewant.
Movement is good.
We're proponents of all kindsof movement.
I think it's all good, but youdo need a balance and a variety,
right?
If all you do is sit or youspecialize in a sport, you're
probably not getting enoughmovement for all of your joints
in the way that they're supposedto.
So that's what we try to dowith the exercises is kind of
(15:09):
supplement that and say, okay,you're missing out on this
function.
This joint's not, you know,getting moved this way very much
, so we need to, you know, workon that and improve that.
So it's all very tailored aswell.
So and that's another thingabout this method is it's not a
cookie cutter approach.
I know the book has exercisesfor specific things like back
(15:31):
pain, hip pain, knee pain.
When we work with clientsone-on-one, we're able to get
really specific to their bodiesand give them exercises specific
to their posture, not justtreating symptoms.
We can do that when we seewhat's going on in your actual
body.
Tom Bulter (15:46):
You talked about help the body remember its
natural alignment.
It sounds to me like whatyou're saying is that the lives
we live now that there's anelement of programming
misalignment into our bodies.
Is that a fair thing to say oris that too much?
Zachary Vehrs (16:08):
No, I think that's fair.
You know our bodies aredesigned to adapt.
We call it compensating,basically, you know it helps us
survive, right.
So we can adapt to sitting, youknow, in front of a computer
all day.
Now, is that healthy for us inthe long run?
You know, not really.
But our bodies are.
They're always adapting right.
(16:28):
Every, every day, your, yourbody's going to be a little
different.
So, for better or for worse,right.
So you know it's this balanceof we've got to have.
I like to think of it as abalance between the positive
stimulus or things that are, youknow, going to encourage health
, going to encourage range ofmotion and mobility, and, you
know, energy, and then thingsthat don't or kind of take away
(16:51):
from it, right.
So if the balance is too heavy,you know negative stuff, like
sitting in front of a computer,you know, or just being
sedentary in general, then ourposture is going to just adapt
to that right.
We're going to become more thatright.
We're going to become morestiff, we're going to become
more rounded over in ourpostures, right.
So we've got to balance it off,balance it out with something
(17:11):
positive, um, to correct thatright and our bodies, regardless
of our age, you know.
People ask like oh, is there,you know, my grandpa's, 95 years
old, is it too late for him?
I would say no, you know.
Work with people, children, allthe way up to people in their
90s, you know, and as long asyou've got muscles still that
(17:32):
you can, you can use, thenbody's going to adapt to how you
use them.
Tom Bulter (17:37):
How would you differentiate the Goscue method
with traditional physicaltherapy approaches?
Zachary Vehrs (17:43):
OSCU method with traditional physical therapy
approaches.
Yeah, I would say, first of all, there's a lot of similarities
in the sense that we're usingtypically, you know, movements,
exercises, stretches, you know,to correct things.
Big difference, though, is ourapproach is.
I can't speak for all physicaltherapists, because I know
there's a lot of really goodones out there who actually
(18:05):
share the same values andapproaches us.
So, which is great, I'm seeingmore and more of that kind of
holistic approach.
But, just in general, I wouldsay most physical therapy is
still pretty symptom based,meaning they're you go in for
back pain, you got aprescription from your doctor
for your back, right, so you getthis many sessions.
(18:28):
They're really only going tolook at your back and probably
give you some core exercises,maybe some stretches for your
back, but that's kind of it.
They're, in our opinion, goingto miss out on what could be the
actual cause of their back pain, which could be anywhere.
(18:52):
So at Egoscue, you come in withback pain.
We're going to do a, you know,complete assessment and ask the
question of why you know or youhave a herniated disc or you've
got, you know, arthritis,whatever it is.
We say, okay, there's, you know, that's your symptom, that's
your diagnosis.
But we want to find out, youknow, what's underlying
preventing you from gettingbetter, because we know our
bodies can heal, we know we canlive without pain.
(19:12):
So we look at all those jointslike we talked about and we
could see, you know, there maybe a problem all the way down in
your foot, for example, thatmight be causing your back,
because it's, you know, yourankles collapsed in.
That makes one of your pelvisyou know bones sit lower than
the other, which now your back'skind of off off its center
(19:32):
because something all the waydown in your ankle maybe you
never addressed an old sprainedankle, for example.
So that's kind of how weapproach things.
We look, we look at the wholepicture and so the exercise
you're doing could be for anypart of your body, and usually
most parts of your body needsomething.
So it's a kind of a whole bodyapproach and we also don't do
any hands-on like manual therapy, massaging, chiropractic
(19:56):
adjustments or anything.
It's all stuff we can teach youto do for yourself.
So it's really a clientcentered approach.
Tom Bulter (20:19):
I would say, and I imagine you see people like
Peter Goskew.
They've gotten a lot of advice,they've seen a lot of people,
they've tried a lot of thingsfor some chronic condition and
then, in comparison, thealignment exercises, as you
mentioned earlier, can seempretty simple.
And so I'm wondering if wecould talk a little bit about
(20:44):
that concept of a chronicmisalignment and what happens in
people's minds that they justlive with it.
Zachary Vehrs (20:53):
I think that's a great point.
It's really unfortunate becausethere's a lot of people out
there that are in that know theyhave this pain, whatever it is,
and it sometimes has beenaround for years.
You know, I hear this all thetime.
Someone comes in and tells me,you know, they're in their 50s
(21:15):
or 60s and they said, oh, I'vehad back problems since college
or whatever, you know, 40 yearsago.
So it's just crazy that peoplewill just have to suffer through
that pain for so long and theyjust think it's normal right,
because it is normal in thesense that a lot of people deal
with that doesn't mean it'sideal or healthy right, or that
(21:38):
that's how it should be.
That's our opinion.
So there's a lot of factors.
I mean, you know, the most ofwhat they've been told is that,
yeah, there's something brokenor something wrong with them or
it's genetic right, and so a lotof it is kind of they've given
up control of their own health.
(21:58):
Basically, they've kind ofsurrendered that, you know, to
someone else.
The doctor, the expert has toldthem this thing.
So they just kind of give uplike, oh well, you know to
someone else, the doctor, theexpert has told them this thing.
So they just kind of give up,like, oh well, you know, this is
how it's going to be.
They're the expert, not me,right?
So therefore I'm just going tohave to live with this my whole
life.
You know, that's one of thefirst things we try to help
people change in.
(22:19):
There is their mindset of, youknow, you don't have to live in
pain, right?
Most people actually feel somekind of positive results on
their first session, like rightaway, and so that's kind of what
gets people starting to thinkdifferently about starting to
challenge some of these beliefsthat, oh well, I just did a few
exercises and my you know backpain I've had for 20 years is
(22:42):
now better.
Maybe it's not a hundredpercent gone, but it's a level
two pain instead of a level six,right, I still have the
arthritis, I still have theherniated disc.
So why do I feel better, right?
Maybe there's a differentreason I'm hurting, right?
That's what we try to getpeople to understand is you can
change something regardless ofyour condition.
And so, yeah, it's a mind, it'sdefinitely a mind shift,
(23:06):
because they've been conditionedto think that, you know, as you
get older, you're just going todeal with pain, right, that's
just how it goes right.
But yeah, it doesn't have to bethat way.
Tom Bulter (23:16):
Is there an ideal candidate for the Goscue method?
Zachary Vehrs (23:22):
I'd say anybody who wants to live without
limitations, whether it's pain,or most people come to us
because of pain, but noteverybody.
And even once you get rid ofthe pain, that's just the first
step, right, it's now?
Oh great, the back doesn't hurt.
Then it opens up all thesepossibilities.
(23:43):
Then it opens up all thesepossibilities.
Like you know, maybe you'vegiven up skiing or you've given
up running or something, becauseit hurt your knees, for example
, and now the knees don't hurtanymore, so maybe I can try that
activity again, right?
So, um, that's really anybodywho feels like they're limited
but they don't want to be andthey're willing to put in the
(24:05):
effort to change that.
You know it's because it is alifestyle change.
It's not a quick pill that youcan just take.
It does take effort and timenot a lot, honestly but it is a
lifestyle change.
You know, we expect people to,you know, do their exercises
regularly, hopefully every day,and so you have to be willing to
do that.
But I'd say, anybody who'swilling to do that and is open
(24:27):
to you know making some changesand believes that they can get
better, can.
You know, there's very fewconditions.
I've seen where we haven't beenable to offer help.
As long as people are, you know, doing their exercises and you
know being consistent with theirappointments and stuff, then I
think there's a lot ofpossibilities.
So yeah, our average client is,you know, probably in their
(24:52):
fifties, active, you know, hassome kind of lingering chronic
pain that hasn't been solved byother traditional methods and is
looking for kind of a holistic,natural approach.
Maybe they want to avoidsurgery.
They've already had surgery andthey still have this issue.
So unfortunately, a lot oftimes we're people's last resort
.
We're trying to change that sothat it becomes more mainstream
(25:15):
that they try this first, butunfortunately a lot of people
come to us after they've alreadybeen through all the, you know,
physical therapists andchiropractic and prescription
pain medications.
Tom Bulter (25:26):
Yeah, and I think that there is a element of a
mindset here, you know, whereit's not a situation where it's
a traditional disease model thatyou're functioning out of.
It's a situation of reallyeverybody needs to be in
(25:47):
alignment.
You know, as life programs us inmisalignment ways, then we need
to have those strategies of how, as you said earlier, remember
that alignment, get the body toremember where the optimal
functioning is.
And so you know, it's a reallydifferent mindset, which I think
(26:10):
is the mindset that we need forthe future of optimal health,
is that mindset of doing thethings, not waiting for symptoms
, not waiting for a breakdown,but doing things that we know,
that are preventative and thatsupport optimal functioning.
Zachary Vehrs (26:29):
Yeah, no, that's, that's right.
And I think a lot of people, Ithink well, you could argue, I
guess everybody probablyintuitively knows what they
should be doing and knows thattheir posture is bad.
You know, knows that theirposture is bad, you know, and
(26:50):
they just again, they've been,they've been told all these
other things so that they kindof forget, or they or they don't
trust their own you know,intuition, that you know this is
something they need to do.
It's crazy how many peopleactually, when you may be
familiar with the static backexercise where you're you're
laying on the floor just flat onyour back with your knees bent,
so your legs are up at kind ofa 90 degree angle, with your
legs up on a chair or couchmaybe.
(27:12):
So that's a common exercise wedo.
And, um, you'd be surprised howmany times you know, first
appointment, or whenever I firstgive that exercise to someone,
that they'll tell me oh yeah, Ialready, I do this whenever my
back hurts because it feels goodlike never.
No one's ever told them to dothat.
That just like a naturalinstinct to get on, get on the
floor and put your legs up.
So I think a lot of people,intuitively, you know, know some
(27:35):
of this stuff and recognizethat it feels good to do these
things.
But it's just a matter of umrecognizing it and then you know
being consistent with it, Iguess.
Tom Bulter (27:45):
But I'm thinking that there must be some times
where there's some damage orsomething you know, a break or
something that's torn, thatthere something needs to heal
before they're going to get themost out of the exercises.
How would you talk about thataspect?
Zachary Vehrs (28:07):
Oh yeah, for sure .
I mean, we don't claim to, youknow, take away from or replace
all the great medicalpractitioners, you know, whether
it's a surgeon or physicaltherapist, I think if you have
an injury, you know an acuteinjury, that's we definitely.
You know, we want you to takecare of that.
However, you need to and getthe healing done.
A lot of times Egoscue can helpsupplement, you know, while you
(28:32):
are recovering from an accidentor surgery or something you
know I.
Still, a lot of times you cando both, right.
So I work with people all thetime who do that.
I work with people all the timewho do that.
They have their, you know,physical therapy exercises or
they have, you know, they see achiropractor, for example.
Nicoscu just helps, I think,make their job easier, right?
(28:56):
So if we can do some things tohelp get our bodies into a
better position, I think it'sgoing to help you heal quicker,
you know.
You know same with surgeries.
So we're not necessarilyanti-surgery.
I mean, we don't think youshould have surgery if you don't
, if you don't absolutely needit, right, but ultimately that's
the client's decision.
So I've worked with people, youknow, before surgeries or
(29:19):
afterwards, or maybe they've aretrying to prevent having to
have, like a knee replacement ora hip replacement, for example,
back surgery.
So whether they have the surgeryor not, though you know the
alignment is going to be thesame, or may actually it's going
to change after the surgeryactually.
But you know.
So we still want to, whereveryou are along that timeline, you
(29:40):
still want to make sure thatyou're having the best possible
posture so that you can get themost out of those treatments and
then also hopefully preventstuff down the road Cause you
hear this a lot where someonegets multiple back surgeries,
right, they fix a disc or theytake out that bulging disc and
then the disc above iteventually starts to fail, right
(30:02):
, and you just have this cascadeof surgeries which you know we
can hopefully want to avoid,right.
So so, yeah, no, we tend todeal more with the chronic stuff
.
So if you go out and sprainyour ankle or tear your ACL over
the weekend like, that's notthe type of stuff we typically
deal with it's usually the stuffthat's been for months or, like
(30:26):
I said, even years for mostpeople.
Tom Bulter (30:28):
Seems like if I'm living a life out of alignment
and I've not thought about that,I've not done anything about
that.
It seems like the older I get,there's going to be kind of like
a compounding impact of that,as I ignore the pain and I've
not fixed anything as far as myposture is concerned and I just
(30:50):
ignore more pain.
Is that kind of fit with whatyou see?
Zachary Vehrs (30:55):
Yeah.
So again, a lot of people willblame their problems on their
age, which is not entirelyaccurate, right, because it's
really just it's.
The problem is still theimbalance or the misalignment in
their posture.
It's just, the more years youhave in that position, the more
chances you have of getting hurtand your body will start to
(31:18):
have to.
You know, if you're notlistening to that original
signal of hey, you knowsomething's wrong.
Well, what does your body do?
It just turns up that signal,right, pain's got to get worse
and worse until eventually,maybe you'll finally listen to
it when you hit rock bottom,right?
Yeah.
So age isn't necessarily theproblem.
But you're right, if leftunchecked, then things tend to
(31:41):
get worse if you're not tryingto fix them, right?
So again, with the analogy ofthe car check engine light on
your car, it may come on andyour car may seemingly still be
running fine, right, becausenothing's catastrophically
broken.
Yet Maybe a sensor just wentbad or isn't receiving a good
signal.
You know, something simplestill works fine.
(32:03):
So maybe you ignore it.
But eventually, down the road,you know it's likely that
something else will fail, or orthat failure will cause more
damage than than it would haveif you had fixed it earlier,
right?
So I think it's the same withour bodies, right.
We want to listen to thosesignals as soon as we can, but
it's never really too late.
So, like I said, I've workedwith people of all ages and all
(32:25):
kinds of different diagnoses andI think you can always make
improvement.
The sooner you start, thebetter you know, as with most
things.
Tom Bulter (32:34):
Can you talk about what a typical Agosku session
would look like?
Zachary Vehrs (32:40):
Yeah, so it's all one-on-one.
So it's all one-on-one.
So we typically sit down withpeople and chat about their
health history, what theirproblems are, what their goals
are, what they're looking toachieve, and then we go through
an assessment of their posture.
So we take photos so that theclient can see exactly what's
(33:01):
going on, put them in oursoftware, which allows us to
identify where each of thosejoints are in relation to each
other, so you can see reallyclearly oh, one shoulder is
higher than the other, or mybody's twisting, or this foot
doesn't point the same directionas the other foot all these
things we can see in the photos.
And then we also look at howyou move.
(33:23):
So we look at walking gaitTypically.
We might do a few other simplemovements like bending over to
touch your toes or balancing onone foot, that kind of stuff,
just to kind of confirm where wethink problems are.
And so that's really the firststep is the assessment and also
the education aspect of you know, helping the person understand
exactly what's going on, becauseup until this point they may
(33:46):
have they may have been toseveral professionals who give
them different you knowdiagnoses and things, but never
really told them the why right.
So that's our goal on day oneis to help people understand why
they have this pain and thenshow them what they can do about
it.
So so then, after we do theassessment based on the posture
that they have and thelimitations we find, then
(34:09):
exercises are tailoredspecifically to those
misalignments or weaknesses thatwe find.
So then we'll take them throughthe exercises, you know, show
them how to do it.
The form is really important,so we're meticulous about, you
know, having good form and if wewant to get the most out of it.
And then the client goes homewith all their we call it a menu
(34:30):
.
It's a series of exercises thatthey do.
Our app allows them to log inand see all the instructions.
There's videos and pictures tohelp them, you know, do the
exercises successfully at home,do the exercises successfully at
home, and so they then go homeand do their exercises.
Typically takes, you know, 20 to30 minutes a day.
(34:51):
Some people do more, somepeople do less, but that's
pretty average.
It just kind of depends on whatyou need, of course, but so the
appointments are typically anhour long, one-on-one, and we
meet with people generally oncea week.
In the beginning sometimestwice a week, but eventually get
to a point where you're.
You know you've made a lot ofinitial improvement.
(35:14):
Pain is now better, yourposture is better.
Our focus starts to shift moretowards strengthening and then
just kind of maintaining.
Once you get to that pointwhere your limitations are no
longer an issue, we don't needto meet as often, so we kind of
taper it off and meet maybe oncea month or something.
You know, the idea is to createindependence, not dependence on
(35:34):
us.
We want to teach people thethings they need to do to take
care of themselves.
Tom Bulter (35:38):
Ultimately, yeah, as you're talking about it,
there's something that comes tomy mind and that's the bike
fitting that I did In the past.
I never thought that a bikefitting would be something that
I need to do.
I thought that's probablysomething that professional
cyclists do.
And then I ended up having abike fitting done and now I'm
like, wow, that was a reallyvaluable investment for me to
(36:01):
make my handlebars removed outso that there was better
alignment with my shoulders.
There were spacers put in mypedals so that my feet were
moved out.
There was an element ofalignment going on as far as you
know, sitting on the bike, andso it seems like cyclists can
(36:22):
kind of relate a bit to thoseconcepts of alignment just from
that thought about being inrepetitive motion on a bike and
then being out of alignment andwhat that can do yeah, no,
that's, that's exactly right.
Zachary Vehrs (36:36):
Not much of a cyclist myself.
I used to, you know, I wouldcycle to work back when I lived
in portland.
Um, I that I and I would ridemy bike as a child and things,
but I haven't so much.
Since living in Seattle,actually, my bike got stolen the
first.
I think it was the first monthI lived here my bike was stolen.
I was unfortunate, so, um,that's terrible.
(37:00):
I mean, it was a cheap bike atleast, so hopefully they needed
it more than me.
I mean, it makes sense.
And you know, if you think about, let's say, on, you're on your
bike and your handlebars arecrooked or maybe one, you know,
I mean, just imagine if yourpedals weren't symmetrical,
right like if one pedal turnedout more or was a different size
(37:20):
, or you know just anything.
That was different on yourright and left side.
It's going to cause problems,right like uh, and just apply
that was different on your rightand left side.
It's going to cause problems,right Like uh, and just apply
that to your body.
You know, if you have, let's say, one, you look down, you're
standing in front of a mirrorand one of your legs, your foot
or maybe your knee, or maybeboth turns out and the other one
is pointing straight ahead.
(37:40):
Like it's supposed to thinkabout all the thousands of steps
you take a day.
Or if you're pedaling, you knowthousands of pedal strokes.
You add that up over the years,millions of times.
You're moving in thisasymmetrical pattern, like it
makes sense that something'sgoing to eventually break right
or wear out or at minimum hurtright.
Like I said, it's not rocketscience, it's pretty common
(38:02):
sense once you start thinkingabout it.
It's just unfortunately not socommon in today's medical system
.
Tom Bulter (38:09):
Fortunately, you talked about some of the
exercises and you know thatthere's a real focus on
self-care.
These, you know.
What I've seen is that they'reeasy to do with just things that
you have around the house.
Is it specifically designedthat way or, you know, did it
just kind of end up that way?
Zachary Vehrs (38:30):
It's a good question, I mean, I think.
I think it's designed that way.
The simplicity of it, I think,is part of why it's so
sustainable, right, Like youdon't have to, anybody can do it
and you can pretty much do itanywhere, right?
That's the beauty of it, is youreally just need your body?
I mean, the equipment we havehere you were to see my clinic
(38:53):
is pretty minimal.
We, we basically have the floor, the walls, some blocks that
are basically at home.
You, most people use a chair,maybe a small cushion off their
couch.
That's about it, you know.
So it's really designed to besimple and we just focus a lot
on those principles of rightangles and you know vertical and
(39:16):
horizontal alignment.
So a lot of that we can dowithout any fancy equipment.
Tom Bulter (39:21):
My wife does have a fancy tower, oh yeah, the tower
Nice.
But it seems like that is morejust for convenience.
I guess the necessity, I think,is the right way to say that.
Zachary Vehrs (39:34):
Yeah, yeah, the tower for the listeners.
It's a device where youbasically typically how you use
it is, you're laying on thefloor.
You can strap one or bothactually both feet, into this
like foot pedal, and then it'sattached to this wooden tower.
It's about what?
24 inches high, I think, so youcan basically lay on your back
(39:56):
and elevate one of or both ofyour legs into the tower, but
then there's different levels toit, so notches on this tower so
you can kind of lower your legcloser to the ground.
And we usually use it to help.
Primarily it's it's good forreleasing like tightness and
your hip flexors.
So, as you know, it's kind of acommon way to use that, so good
(40:17):
if you've got really tight hipsand good for your back to.
You know you're laying on thefloor on your back, so it helps
to release, um change your spineand hip position basically.
But the tower didn't come alonguntil years after Pete came up
with that stretch.
I think originally you werejust laying on the floor with
one leg up on a chair and theother leg straight, either on
(40:38):
the ground or elevated onanother chair with your knee
extended.
So yeah, there's ways of doingit without that, but the tower
definitely makes it easier.
Tom Bulter (40:47):
As you're talking about it, you know and this is
not my first exposure to it, butmaybe some people it is you
know you're not talking aboutanything strange or radical or
anything, but I'm wondering if,as you're out in the world, you
know people ask you what you dothings like that.
Do you face some skepticismabout the method?
Zachary Vehrs (41:10):
Oh yeah, definitely.
I mean I would say I mean a lotof people are just naturally
skeptical, right for anythingthat they're not familiar with,
so that's normal, but I meanmost people, I would say once
they try it, I think a lot ofthat skepticism goes away
because they see and feel howeffective it is Right.
(41:30):
So sometimes it's as simple aswell.
You got to just try it.
Ultimately, if you want to seethat, the proof is in the
pudding, right.
But I, you know you do run intothat where you start to tell
people about what you do and formost people they like you, you
know, agree that it's.
Oh, it makes sense, right,common sense, your body should
be lined up a certain way, andall this stuff.
(41:51):
But you do get some pushbackfrom people who are a little
more.
They want to see, you know, wecall them fact finders, where
it's like, well, what's the?
You know, has there beenresearch on this?
And how come, you know, know,insurance doesn't pay for it if
it's legit, right?
Like how come my doctor doesn'tdo this, right?
So there's a lot of that where,you know, they're used to the
(42:15):
western medical system being,you know, kind of the authority,
right, and so if it doesn'tfall under under that, then it
must not be true, right?
So you know, everybody's got tobe willing to, I think, be
curious about it and try it outif they want to really be a good
judge of it.
Because that's ultimately, whatmatters is, if it works, it
(42:36):
works.
If it doesn't, it doesn't.
But so, um, something, I wasthinking if you wanted me to
kind of take you through just asample exercise, something that
we can do here.
I know your listeners can't see, but this is something that we
can just describe and that Ithink anybody could try as just
something to kind of feel thekind of thing that we do.
(42:58):
I love it.
Yeah, maybe I'll.
I'll have you do this with mehere.
Okay, describe what we're doing.
So we're just going to stand up.
I don't know if you keep allmade here because you've got
their mic there.
Oh, it was perfect, okay.
Tom Bulter (43:15):
You're not going to be able to see me, but that's
okay.
Zachary Vehrs (43:19):
So you're going to stand up, preferably do this
barefoot, and if you have shoeson right now, that's fine.
But the first thing you'regoing to do?
If you look down at your feet,most of us, our feet don't point
exactly straight like they'resupposed to, so we're actually
going to kind of overcorrect andgo pigeon toed.
So I want you to touch your bigtoes together in the middle and
your heels are now spread out,so your feet are kind of maybe
(43:41):
pointing in like a 45 degrees ateach other.
Tom Bulter (43:43):
Okay, Got it.
Zachary Vehrs (43:44):
Well then I want you to tighten up your quads.
So lock your knees.
So no bend in the knees.
So tighten up your quads, keepyour knees locked, okay.
So just doing that, and a lotof your listeners might feel a
little uncomfortable, like it'smaybe some tightness in their
hips, especially if they'recycling a lot.
This is going to challenge someof their joints, but it
(44:06):
shouldn't be painful, but it'sokay if it feels a little stiff.
So now take your hands and justinterlace your fingers and kind
of cup the back of your head.
So just put your hands behindyour head, fingers interlaced
all the way together, and thenpull your elbows back.
So try to pull your elbows backand look straight ahead, and
we're just going to hold this,so there's no movement.
(44:28):
We're just going to keepfocusing on tightening up our
quads, keeping our elbows pulledback.
Okay, and Tom, maybe you candescribe what you're feeling so
far as you're doing this.
Tom Bulter (44:38):
Well, I am feeling tightness in between my
shoulders.
I'm feeling quite a bit oftightness in my mid-back, but
I'm not feeling it too much inmy hips.
Really not much in my hips atall, but mostly kind of my upper
back in between my shoulderblades and then kind of mid-back
.
Zachary Vehrs (44:59):
Perfect.
Yeah, well, that's.
Yeah, everybody's going to feelit maybe a little bit
differently, but that's yeah.
Well, that's.
Yeah, everybody's going to feelit maybe a little bit
differently, but that's thisexercise is.
It kind of addresses two of themain areas that most people
have issues, especially cyclists.
Right, where we're stuck inflexion, where we're bent
forward, you know, our shouldersare rounded, our upper back is
typically rounded forward andwe're also in a seated position,
(45:21):
so our hips are kind of in aclosed or flexed position.
So that position we just did isthe opposite.
Right, your hips are nowextended, your legs are straight
and then the hands behind theirhead gets your upper back to
straighten out.
So it kind of takes you out ofthat rounded forward kyphosis,
you know, and gives you a littlemore extension in your upper
back, pulls your shoulders back.
(45:43):
It helps actually get your headback in alignment, in alignment
with your shoulders.
You know you're feeling itprobably where your, where your
weak spot is, which is that midto upper back, right.
Tom Bulter (45:53):
So yeah, and again, I think you know what you're
saying.
Just another example ofsomething that just makes total
sense, because talked about thiswith other people on the show
and you know I'm forward, I'mtyping, you know my chest is
kind of in and I get on the bikeand I'm, my chest is still in
(46:14):
and I'm, I'm bent over more andit's, you know, it's that closed
motion.
So so that's the kind of thingthat I think is important for me
and I, you, you know, I think alot of cyclists.
Zachary Vehrs (46:25):
Yeah, no, I would encourage your listeners to do
that exercise and hold it for aminute.
I mean you could hold it forlonger if you want, but a minute
should be plenty.
You can do that before you geton the bike.
After you get off the bike,maybe, you know, take a little
breaks throughout your day Ifyou're working on a computer,
you know.
That's just something that'sreal simple, doesn't require any
equipment.
You just just standing thereand that'll give you an instant
(46:49):
positive impact on your posture.
So see how you feel before andthen how you feel immediately,
immediately afterwards, and Ican guarantee you most people
are going to feel, feel a littlebit better just from doing that
I was touching my toes andflexing my quads.
Tom Bulter (47:05):
If I was feeling a lot of tightness, do you back
off?
Do you have your toes nottouching, do you?
Zachary Vehrs (47:13):
Yeah, you want to listen to your body, right.
So if it just can't, if you'rejust really that tight that you
can't get your toes to pointinward and touch in the middle,
then just do the best you can,right.
So even if you just have tostart with the feet pointing
straight, cause some people youknow they're walking around, you
know, like ducks, right, buttheir feet turned out 45 degrees
.
So turning them in is like ahuge difference, a huge change
(47:36):
to ask.
So so we might have to juststart by turning them in a
little bit so that they'reactually parallel, like they be,
and then maybe work towardspointing them in the same with
the hands behind the head.
I mean, if you've got like aactive rotator, cuff, kick, tear
or something and that positionis painful, then we don't want
to aggravate it, right?
So this is just an example ofsomething you know.
(47:57):
But obviously each individualwork we want to tailor to their
to.
Yeah, general rule of thumbdon't push it if it causes more
pain.
You know, a little bit ofdiscomfort or fatigue or muscle
tension or even cramping is notbad, but if it actually hurts
more when you're done than itdid before, probably not the
(48:19):
best thing for you right now.
Tom Bulter (48:21):
You mentioned insurance and I'm thinking that
it's not typical that you wouldhave insurance pay for Egoscue
treatment.
Is that fair to say?
Zachary Vehrs (48:32):
Yeah, that's correct.
So if you have a health savingsaccount or a flex spending
account, usually that can beused to pay for it, but
otherwise we just we don't workwith insurance, or I should say
insurance doesn't work with us.
So so yeah, it's out of pocket.
Just to give you an idea, weoffer a couple different
programs.
You know, since this issomething that, as you can
(48:54):
imagine, isn't typically just aone and done deal, you know it's
a process.
So we offer packages of eithereight or 16 sessions.
We offer packages of eithereight or 16 sessions.
So it's basically, you know,we're meeting with people weekly
, so our eight session programis typically like two months.
So that's usually enough timeto really make a significant
(49:14):
change on people's problems thatthey're coming in with, and so
the price of the eight visitpackage is $16.45.
And then there's also a 16session package.
You know, if we decide you needmore than that, it's $27.45.
So if you do the math, it's abit cheaper per session with the
(49:38):
larger package, but that's fornew clients.
And then if you need morebeyond that, you know, as an
existing client, the prices dogo down a bit as you get into
more of that.
We call thrive where you're,you know, continuing to maintain
the progress, but maybe meetingless often.
The prices go down a bit afterthat.
Tom Bulter (49:53):
It sounds like you're part of a network of
Egoscue practitioners across theUS.
Is that right?
Zachary Vehrs (50:01):
Yeah, us, is that right?
Yeah, so it's a franchise,which means everything is pretty
standardized.
As far as you could go to anyEgoscue clinic across the
country, you're going to get thesame treatment, same software,
the same price, the same results.
I mean therapists are going tobe different, obviously, and
everybody has their own kind ofstyle and personalities, but the
(50:23):
method is the same andprocedures are the same, so you
can expect the same quality anylocation you go to.
So, and that's nice.
So some people travel, or maybethey, you know, spend summers
and winters in different homes,and so they may go to different
clinics for their treatment.
And if you do have a programwith us, it's transferable
between those locations.
(50:44):
Or if you move, for example,and you still have sessions left
to use, they transfer to otherEgoscue franchise locations.
Tom Bulter (50:54):
People can go to egoscuecom.
Is that a place?
Zachary Vehrs (50:58):
to start.
Yeah, that's the place, it'segoscue-O-S-C-U-E dot com.
Tom Bulter (51:05):
And I'll put a link to that in the show notes.
Anything else that you canthink that people should be
aware of or you'd like people toknow about, consider when
they're thinking about theGoscue method.
Zachary Vehrs (51:18):
If this is resonating with you, you know,
and you feel like you've gotthis lingering issue that maybe
you've been dealing with for along time or even a short time,
maybe it's a new injury orsomething that's preventing you
from doing the thing you love todo.
I would just encourage you togive it a try.
You know, just believe in yourbody's ability to get better and
that if you put in the effortand with a little extra guidance
(51:42):
from us, we can work together,you know, as a team, to help you
figure out what you need to doto get better, and seen a lot,
of, a lot of success for peoplethat have been told otherwise.
Tom Bulter (51:52):
So never give up hope I love that part of the
story where someone you knowwould come in and if they're
dealing with something for along time, and you know, I would
think there'd be a lot ofpeople you know, and I kind of
put myself in this category too.
I have to be really transparent.
It's like it just seems tooeasy, right, it just seems like
(52:13):
it's.
You know, it's such a basicthing get in alignment and so to
have someone try something thatis relatively easy, something
they can do at home, somethingthey can learn and then keep up
with and you know, every daythat they're doing.
it kind of builds the builds orbodies, remembrance of you know
(52:34):
how to stay in alignment andit's just, it's gotta be
wonderful times.
Zachary Vehrs (52:39):
Yeah, no, it really is.
I'm really glad I get to dothis and I find it a privilege
to be able to help people likethat and that's what brings me a
lot of satisfaction and joy.
And what I do is just seeingpeople, you know, have that
moment of like oh, I can do thisthing now.
I can play with my grandkidsagain, or I can go back on the
bike that I haven't been able tofor years and, you know,
(53:01):
basically living their lives theway that they want to again.
It's really fulfilling.
So it's my privilege.
I don't take credit very oftenfor that, you know, because
ultimately, they're doing allthe hard work each day.
I'm just giving them someexercises to do.
Tom Bulter (53:19):
Zach, thank you so much for taking the time to come
on and share with us.
You so much for taking the timeto come on and share with us.
And again, I'd encourageanybody to just go to agoscucom
and there's a place there thatyou can click on to try Agoscu
and to go through that processand connect with someone like
Zach.
So thanks, Zach, for coming on.
Zachary Vehrs (53:41):
All right, thank you, it was great.
Tom Bulter (53:43):
Talk to you later.
I'm going to set up anappointment with Zach and have
him do an assessment of myalignment.
Right now I'm about ascommitted to working on
flexibility as I ever have been,and I think that using the
(54:04):
Agoscue method will provideanother layer of benefit to
becoming more limber.
I will definitely keep youposted on how Agoscue helps with
my progress.
We have been having someincredible weather here in the
Pacific Northwest lately.
I hope you are finding theconditions awesome or at least
tolerable, or you are.
Please keep the pictures comingon the Cycling Over 60 Strava
(54:24):
Club.
I really enjoy seeing picturesof bikes and scenery and
especially your smiling faces.
And remember, age is just agear change.
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Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.