September 2, 2025 • 54 mins
The world watched as Joe Jonas and Sophie Turner's divorce unfolded across international headlines, with Turner declaring she'd "never return to the US" and Jonas filing to keep his daughters stateside. But beneath this celebrity spectacle lies a powerful lesson for every divorced dad trying to navigate the complex world of dating and co-parenting.
This episode dives deep into the art of the invitation—a revolutionary approach to dating that transforms how divorced dads connect with potential partners. We unpack why expressing what you want as an invitation rather than an expectation creates space for genuine connection while maintaining your masculine energy. Through practical examples and honest conversation, we explore how this subtle shift changes everything from scheduling dates to establishing boundaries.
For divorced dads balancing parenting responsibilities with dating lives, we address the critical questions: How do you assess whether a potential partner has thoughtfully created space for dating in her life? What signals reveal whether someone will respect your established family dynamics? And how can you lead authentically without slipping into controlling behaviors that repel the very connection you seek?
The conversation takes an illuminating turn when we contrast leadership with control, offering a framework that allows divorced dads to maintain their vision while remaining open to collaboration. This approach creates relationships where feedback flows freely and both parties feel valued—the foundation for any successful blended family.
Whether you're just starting to date after divorce or struggling with relationship patterns that leave you frustrated, this episode offers a refreshing perspective that creates more freedom, connection, and authenticity in your dating life. Discover how detaching from outcomes while staying true to your values transforms not just your relationships, but your entire approach to life after divorce.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the show.
Divorced or Dad's Dating AfterDivorce.
My name is Jude Sandvall.
I'm the founder of the DivorcedAdvocate, my co-host, dallas
Bluth, founder of Black BoxDating.
How are you doing, dallas?
I'm doing great.
How are you doing?
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Jude.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
I'm doing good, but apparently I have too many
podcasts going on and I can'tremember which one I'm recording
at the moment.
So, yeah, that's a challengesometimes, Well having kids and
work and all of that stuff.
So the dads that are listeningI'm sure have a little bit of
grace for me around that andknow how that brain just kind of
diverts off into all differentdirections.
(00:39):
But anyway, I would try to keepit back focused on dads dating
after divorce, because we gotsome fun conversation to chat
about today and I'll give yousome background, because I
didn't on how I found this.
So Joe Jonas and Sophie Turnerare two kind of mega stars.
(01:00):
One's an actress, one is a popmusic star, and guess he
probably I think he does someacting too.
I don't know really much ofwhat they do.
I know my daughters havelistened to some of their stuff
and talked about some of theirstuff, but so I read something
recently that she said about hernever coming back to the united
(01:21):
states.
I guess she lives in the UK andthat's where she's from, and so
I had read that article earlierin the week thinking, oh
interesting, because I had readabout their contentious divorce
months and months ago, and this,I guess, was last year.
It's all been finalized.
So I started to do someresearch into it because I was
thinking well, she lives overthere, he lives over here.
(01:43):
How is that going to work inparenting and whatnot?
And so then was reading alittle bit more about it and
thought this would be a goodtopic for us to talk about how
people are co-parenting.
You have different lives and so, you know, I put together the
little perspective of what wecould talk about and I thought
it was really, reallyinteresting because, for when I
(02:06):
sent it to, you came back withsome really great ideas hey, we
could talk about this and wecould talk about this.
And I'm thinking, oh, my gosh,this is really interesting
because those weren't the top.
Those things that crossed mymind weren't like the top two,
one or two things that crossedmy mind.
So that's cool.
This is going to be a greatconversation because you, being
the dating and relationshipcoach, have a perspective that
(02:27):
is really honed in, honed in onon some specific stuff with the
dads and how they can mitigatesome stuff.
In mind is a little bit of adifferent perspective, right,
having, you know, having been adad, talking with thousands of
dads and also been dating as adad for the last decade, right,
(02:49):
so let's dive into it.
It's just really, reallyinteresting.
So for the listeners, especiallythe ones that are the older
guys like me, right, that don'tknow they were married like me,
right, that's, I don't know theywere married.
I'm not sure how long they weremarried, but they have two
(03:15):
young daughters.
They got separated last yearand immediately became
contentious because what JoeJonas did is he filed to keep
his daughters in the UnitedStates, basically, and then that
created a bunch of uproar andwith the pundits and media and
social media and all that crapwhich we're not gonna get into
because we don't know how adivorce proceeds and there's so
(03:37):
many idiosyncrasies in everysingle person's divorce that
when these public divorces comeout, we don't really know the
dynamics of them.
So we don't really know.
But what I will say is Irespect the fact that he, as a
dad, beginning from like rightfrom the beginning, saying, hey,
I want to be spending time withmy daughters, I'm going to make
(03:59):
sure to protect this is how Iread it that I'm going to
protect my daughters, protect mytime with my daughters.
I don't know if that's in factwhat he was doing or if there
were issues behind the scenes,et cetera.
People were saying he's tryingto take his daughters from her.
You know all that, all thatcrap.
But from a dad's perspective, Iappreciated that he was engaged
immediately in that and perhapsprotecting his time with his
(04:23):
daughters because it is reallyimportant.
So that was one of my firstthings when this whole thing
happened.
And then listening to her say,well, I'm never leaving the UK,
I started to think, well, okay,how does that work with
parenting time, with, likethat's not just dropping them
off after school to somewhereelse.
(04:46):
They're living in a completelydifferent country for part of
the time and in another completedifferent country part of the
time.
So that's where my mind andthen I started thinking, well,
like, how do you date doing thatand how do you?
There's so many things that gointo that.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
So I just want to jump in and say using a word
like never is drawing a reallyhard line in the sand saying I'm
never leaving this country.
I'm never coming back over there.
I mean, if you're going toco-parent, if you're going to
co-operate in anything, thewords never need to be reserved
for you know, absolutely cannotcross that line situations when
(05:27):
you're an international, youknow, actress, musician or
whatever.
The idea that location is never, I mean, is just kind of silly.
You know, that's not what thelifestyle is like, what she's
never going to set foot in theUS again for her career.
That just seems ridiculouscareer.
That just seems ridiculous.
So the fact that she's sayingnever to me kind of strikes more
(05:48):
of a, you know, a clearlyconfrontational and you know,
kind of picking a fight in a way, and that please speak into
this.
But that is the last thing thatyou want to be modeling for
your children is the fact thatyou're going to draw arbitrary
hard lines against your formerpartner and model this for the
(06:08):
kids.
But you tell me what you think,because you've been through the
divorce.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
You've been through the trenches, yeah, so that's a
really good point, and I thinkthat might go a little bit to
why he took some preemptiveaction.
And unfortunately, I see thisall the time, and I hear this
all the time of a parent movinga kid or doing something just
(06:32):
unilaterally.
That's just not, it'sinappropriate, it's not healthy
for the kids, it's just not theway to do something.
So hearing her talk about thison the back end like that and
making statements like thismakes me think that maybe there
is a little bit of an issuebehind the scenes that we don't
see or hear.
But he did also just come outrecently on a podcast and was
(06:55):
talking about what a good momshe is.
So I have a great deal ofrespect for him and, as far as I
can see, neither one of themhave really bad mouthed each
other.
So that is definitelydefinitely a positive thing.
So, but but also to your pointabout saying never, then this
article from the New York Post,page six, shows the two of them
(07:16):
walking around in New Yorktogether, right, so?
So apparently that never didn'tlast, never, ever.
It lasted until she had to comeback to New York, or maybe that
was the drop off, who knowsLike who knows how this is
working.
But this is a little extremeexample because maybe I can't
ever see a parenting plan likethis working and being really a
(07:39):
positive for kids.
Because it's the time frame,because their kids are like four
and two, so it's really reallyyoung, and how do you spend
months at one place and monthsat the other?
But again, I'm not a superstar.
Maybe there's a benefit to thisfor why they did that.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
It's actually the nannies and the handlers that
are providing the security forthe children.
They're the ones flying themback and forth.
They're actually providing thestable structure at this point
for the kids.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Yeah, it almost seems like a Brad Pitt Angelina Jolie
setup where it's yeah, you arethe quote-unquote parents of
record, but there's a whole lotof other things and people and
dynamics going in to that whichmost everybody listening to this
and you and I are just nevergoing to have another
understanding.
But I think it is interestingto listen to some of that
(08:33):
perspective of hearing.
So why would you justunilaterally, then just go move
to another country and do thatwithout taking the time to talk
with your soon to be ex about,hey, what is going to be the
most effective way for us to goabout doing this?
(08:56):
So that's something.
That is something.
That that is something.
So here's here's a perspectivethat I was thinking is one of my
top ones is, when you're out inthe world of dating, then after
divorce, and you are inevitablygoing to be meeting other women
that are divorced and havechildren what is their parenting
(09:21):
time, what is their structure?
And kind of some questions toask around.
That is how did you come upwith this parenting time, what
is their structure?
And kind of some questions toask around.
That is how did you come up withthis parenting time?
Why did you decide to do this?
What does this look like inpractice?
How is your you know some ofthose things to try to get this
perspective of?
Hey, do they have a couplethings?
(09:42):
Do they have the kid's bestinterest in mind?
First, because if eventuallylet's talk about, depending on
what your long-term goal is, isyour long-term goal to blend a
family?
And if it is to blend a family,you want to know that that
person's mindset is aroundfamily first.
They're going to be makingthose decisions.
If they go and they dosomething like this took off to
(10:05):
Florida or the UK or whatever,and then work things out working
backwards from that, that mightbe a sign to pay attention to,
because that's probably adecision-making process that is
not isolated to just the parentsor just the parenting time.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Yeah, yeah, I'd say that, you know, coming back to
making an absolute statementlike never.
You know that that's a bit of ared flag to hear someone say
that it's great, to hear thatthey're talking well of each
other, speaking well of eachother, that that bodes well.
I am a little bit whenever Isee somebody essentially making
a power play or a power move.
For me, that's oftentimes asignal that the person is
(10:50):
compensating for a situation inwhich they don't feel very
powerful.
People that feel like they havepower in a situation they're
confident they don't need tomake power moves.
They'll set boundaries, but aboundary is simply saying no to
something, but to say that I'mnever going to do this or we're
going to unilaterally make thismove.
(11:12):
People that have a deep-seatedsense of confidence in
themselves simply don't need tobehave that way.
We only puff up our chest andturn our language into absolute
type statements when we'retrying to shore up what feels
inside of us like a weakposition.
So for me, when I'm dating awoman that has kids, or going on
(11:36):
a date with a woman that haskids, I definitely listen to the
way that she talks about her ex, to the way she talks about the
situation.
To be honest, though, most ofthe time my only question when
I'm dating a single woman iswhat percentage of the time do
(11:57):
you have your kids?
And at the moment I'm simplyasking it from a selfish point
of view is are you available toactually date?
Because the women that have kids100% of the time.
I mean maybe if they make agood income and they're happy
paying for babysitters, but alot of the time I've struggled
to find women that have kids100% of the time that are
thinking that way.
It's sort of like, well, I justhave to join their life if I'm
(12:18):
going to do it.
So single moms that have no dadin the picture a lot of the
times, I'm like well, unlessthere is some cosmic connection
happening between the two of us,I'll probably keep looking,
because there's almost no wayfor me to get to know them as an
adult, to assess whether or notwe're good with each other,
(12:41):
before I get introduced to anyeven just the corners, the
fringes of their adult life.
I've, I've, seen it as a hugered flag when I get introduced
way too early into into, youknow, a woman's family life.
I shouldn't, I shouldn't beintroduced to that for quite a
while, in my opinion, severalmonths at least.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Yeah, so that's yeah, well, that's a lot of good
information, but that's a reallygood point.
I wasn't necessarily thinkingabout going down that route, but
I think it's a.
I think it's a good, importantone to to go down, both for the
dads and also for payingattention to.
To hear dating with which isthat?
That's time management, part ofit it is, and you pointed out
(13:25):
the situation.
If a woman has the kids 100% ofthe time, what is her dating
strategy?
So this is a question that Iwill ask up front.
All the time is.
So what is your strategy fordating, like, what have you
created?
How have you curated your lifein order to put aside time?
(13:47):
You mentioned time.
There's no other way to get toknow somebody other than
spending quality time with them.
So you can text and send cardsand whatever, but that's not
going to do anything.
It's not going to build a deep,meaningful relationship with
somebody over a period of timeunless you're spending time with
(14:08):
them.
So that's one of the questionsI ask and I got to tell you and
not just the, the, the womenthat are updated, that are, that
are divorced moms or singlemoms that that that have a
hundred percent is money.
Women, I don't think, puttogether a strategy.
A strategy, and I think maybethat's the difference between
the male brain and the femalebrain, and maybe you can speak
(14:30):
to this because oftentimes, evenif they have a parenting
schedule and they do have ahealthy relationship with the
dad, they have no clue orconcept.
There's not something thatthey've even thought about.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Right, and I think that's actually turns into a
frustration for a lot of guys.
One of the things is and I'msure we've all heard this women
are like I just want it tohappen organically.
I just want it to happen,naturally.
It's just going to happen.
Well, okay, that's great andit's wonderful it happens.
But in the guy's head we'relike but if we don't do things
to make it happen, it's nevergoing to happen.
(15:09):
Obviously we're speaking inhuge gross generalizations here,
but generally speaking, guystend to like to see like a step
A, step B, step C process and alot of times women want it to
kind of happen.
But it happening a lot of timesis because the guy's planning
something, inviting something,and she just feels like it's a
(15:31):
natural occurrence.
So, yeah, a lot of women well, Idon't know, I mean I feel like
a lot of women, you know, arevery, very, very structured,
particularly if they're singlemoms, almost to the point where
there's no flexibility I'veactually experienced that quite
a bit to see what theiravailability is and realize that
(16:01):
, as a single dad, people aregoing to make assumptions about
your availability or lack ofavailability and they're not
necessarily going to take thetime to ask that question.
So I think, advertising it,packaging yourself in it, as you
know, I'm a single dad and youknow I have my kids three days
out of the week.
You know the rest of the week,you know, is my life to live,
(16:21):
however I like, and you knowthose sorts of things, because
otherwise people could just sortof you know, paint with a broad
stroke what your availabilityis, what your attractiveness is
as a single dad, and I thinkit's important to show that.
No, no, no, I have plenty oftime carved out for connections.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Yeah, that's a great point.
That sounds to me on a datingprofile.
I'm a single dad who has hisshit together, right Like a line
in there in your summary Asingle dad has his shit together
.
A single dad with plenty of roomto breathe, yeah shit together
first, a single dad with plentyof room to breathe, yeah, yeah,
(17:01):
yeah, there you go, which is,which is a great point.
So we're, we're as a single dad.
There's just going to be.
We're going to get weeded outby some, some people, and that's
fine.
Some, some people don't want toto to deal with what what
entails of just children.
Maybe somebody doesn't want todeal with children and,
depending what age your childrenare like, for instance, these
(17:21):
two have young kids that arefour and two, and my children
were six, four and two when thisprocess started, when I started
my divorce.
So I can understand that andthat's a whole different dynamic
and your time is takendifferently than what I'm
experiencing now, which is 19,17-year-old, 15-year-old and
older, and your time frees upand you have different ways to
(17:43):
do that.
But I would encourage dads tomaybe take the lead in having
that conversation, but also,like you said, I don't know
necessarily advertising it, butjust talking about what your
your vision is for dating andhow you want to go, have a
(18:06):
process for what you want and so, and that can be different if
you're just casually dating, orthat can be, and that is going
to definitely be different ifyou're looking to have a
long-term relationship or arelationship that ends in
marriage.
But have that process, know whatthat means.
Are you going to be seeing eachother three times a week, four
(18:30):
times a week?
What is that and what are those?
Is that getting together?
Is that doing things, et cetera?
We're going to do that until wefeel comfortable, both
committing to an exclusiverelationship.
That's generally going to bethis timeframe, and then we're
going to date exclusively afterthat.
What does exclusively mean?
(18:51):
That could be different todifferent people, right?
Like I've been in monogamousrelationships where I was the
only one monogamous, right?
So that's different todifferent people.
So I would say be very, veryclear, very, very definite and
defined in what you're doing.
(19:13):
You just don't have the time towaste.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
I can also hear the voices of many, many, many women
that I have spoken with sayingyes, be clear about the process,
but don't try to control mewith your process.
Don't try to dictate to me whatthis is going to look like.
So for me, I completely, 100%,agree with what you're saying
and realize that this is, atleast in the beginning, an
(19:40):
internal process.
This is what I would like it tolook like.
This is how many days orevenings a week that I would
like to be able to get together.
This is what it means to me tobe committed to each other.
This is what it means to bemonogamous with somebody,
although I thought that term waspretty clear.
Yeah, so did I.
Yeah.
(20:03):
And the more we have thosethings clearly defined inside of
us, it becomes a matter ofsharing it, voicing it and
really just kind of I like theword informing the other person
of what we're looking for whenwe talk about, well, what's this
relationship going to look like?
And it becomes thiscollaborative effort.
(20:25):
There's a little more push andpull.
I have found that women love tofeel that they're being
presented with lots ofinformation.
Well, not lots of information.
That's overstating it.
With lots of information well,not lots of information, that's
overstating it.
Women like men to presentwhat's going on inside them very
clearly, but not require themto make a decision about it
right away.
They don't have to agree ordisagree, they definitely don't
(20:47):
have to conform and they don'tfeel controlled by it.
That, I have found, is whatmakes women feel the most
attractive.
I have found is what makeswomen feel the most attractive
Clarity in what I'm looking forand what turns me on, and even
you know, having a vision thatyou're sharing of this is what a
blended family would look like.
(21:07):
This sounds awesome to me, andthen just wait and see how she
responds to that image.
But it's very important to bean image and a process that
we're sharing, that makes senseto us, that we embrace
positively and we are not,because it is so easy for guys
to be like oh, I'm beingassertive, I'm being dominant,
I'm being the man and that willturn women off.
(21:32):
So so fast if they're being toldwhat they're going to enjoy.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
So so fast if they're being told what they're going
to enjoy.
So let's dial down on that alittle bit, because I feel like
your assessment is absolutelyright.
Sometimes it's been myexperience that it's a mixed
message.
I want you to be assertive, Iwant you to, but then it is when
(21:57):
it doesn't go their way, orwhen it's not, yeah, it's like I
don't I don't even know how todescribe it that's not
comfortable to them or it'ssomething that they don't want.
Then it becomes you're toocontrolling.
So it's like okay, well, yousaid you wanted me to be
assertive, and and, and.
So I've been assertive.
I've laid out kind of how Ifeel, what I think.
(22:17):
We've talked about this.
You've, you've even agreed tothis and said, yeah, like three
days is good and let's do that.
And then, and then you get down.
You get down the road a littlebit, and what I mean a little
bit is that we're talking aboutin the beginning, maybe, when
you're just dating, and thenyou're not, none of this stuff
is happening.
And then you start saying, well, hey, we talked about this.
(22:40):
And then it's like you're beingcontrolling, like well, not
actually, not like we, just we,we talked about all this, and
some of this is communication.
Right, I'm assuming that you'regoing to tell me that you need
to be better at communicating.
Maybe you haven't beencommunicating well, or or
whatever it is, but I find thata lot that it's when it's when,
it's when they, when they don'thave the assertiveness they want
(23:02):
the assertiveness, when theyget the assertiveness, it's like
you're too controlling.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Right, right, right, dude man like this is.
This is the biggest,squirreliest topic, because you
know almost everything that I oranyone can say.
You will find plenty of examplesto the contrary, and for me,
the fundamental guidingprinciple behind it is one
(23:29):
getting square with myself,knowing where I am, what's the
process that I like, that Ienjoy, that looks really good to
me, and being open to thatbeing changed and improved with
time.
When I have that picture andI'm again I'm not entering into
a conversation about what isthis relationship going to look
like I'm going to tell them thekind of relationship that looks
(23:51):
very attractive to me and thensee how they respond to that.
They're like, oh man, thatsounds awesome.
Or like, I don't really know,that sounds like getting
together a lot every week.
But you leave it as twodistinct people having that
conversation, and the way I dothat is by presenting where I'm
coming from individually.
Now here's the real trick, andthis is the thing that a lot of
(24:16):
guys never make the distinctionon.
Anything that you are puttingout there as a man needs to be
presented as an invitation.
Good point you know our dynamic,whatever it is.
(24:38):
I have a picture and I amwriting up a pretty little
invitation, you know, in cursive, with diagrams or whatever.
I'm sliding it across the tableand I am inviting you to join
in that picture with me.
Okay, no woman gets pissed offat a guy for extending an
invitation.
What we don't realize is, guys,is we will quickly and easily
(25:00):
go from inviting to requesting,or inviting to expecting, or
inviting to demanding, orinviting to holding someone, to
an agreement or a contract thatwe thought we drew up six months
ago, an agreement or a contractthat we thought we drew up six
(25:20):
months ago, and she's apparentlynot in the same place.
Just to speak to those changingelements, guys, basic masculine
energy, grounded, solid, amountain, the rock that she can
count on.
That's not to say you can't beemotional, that's not to say you
can't change your mind, but youwant to have a grounded, rooted
(25:44):
nature to yourself, and thereason for that is because, one,
it's just basically attractiveto all men and women.
Men that are grounded are veryattractive.
Two, the more grounded you areas a man, the more she can relax
and free herself up and go intoa more feminine place, and the
more she's in that carefreefeminine place, the more room
there is for the dynamic tohappen back and forth.
(26:05):
Okay, there's ups and downs tothat.
That feminine energy, once itstarts to come out and it's
free-flowing, she's going to bemore happy, more giddy, more
playful and probably more horny,because that's how that's.
When women are lighthearted,they tend to be more interested
in sex.
But we also have to realize thatat the same time, they're going
(26:28):
to be carefree means they mightbe more fluid in the moment,
they might change their mindsmore often and particularly if
you enter into a relationshipwith someone and they begin to
relax, a woman, and they beginto relax and they begin to be
more themselves, they begin tobe more fluid and feminine
(26:51):
themselves, they begin to bemore fluid and feminine.
We have to accept that.
That fluidity is part of thefeminine nature and we need to
make plenty of room for her tobe that way and just let her do
it and then restate on our end.
So you know, sex is kind ofpart of who I am.
You know this is.
And again, we present wherewe're coming from.
(27:13):
We present an attractiveinvitation for them to join in
the experience and they'll go ohyeah, of course I forgot you
know and they'll just changetheir mind back again.
But we, but we, have to letthem be in that carefree space
if we want to enjoy the femininequalities.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Okay, that makes great sense.
Let's come up with an exampleof this, because it's very
nuanced, right, because you'retalking about an invitation and
in my mind, in my dude mind, I'mlike all right, once you accept
the invitation, then it's anevent, like it's like this is
(27:51):
the time and dates, and then youjust set to the time and date.
But what you're saying is andand this makes sense, but this
is probably this is one of thedifficult challenges in
masculine feminine dynamics isthat's not necessarily like
accepting an invitation to awoman doesn't then define time
(28:13):
and date and ongoing, and like,yeah, this is, whereas a guy is
like this is it, it's the timeand date, and we said we're
gonna do it three times thisthis week, whatever it is, and
for her it's a little bitdifferent.
So in in in application, how doyou?
Little bit different.
So in in in application, how doyou?
How do you revisit thatinvitation because I love you?
(28:34):
You said, well, it's aninvitation, then becomes a, a
request, then becomes a demand.
I don't remember what all thewords were, but I can see this
and I can see this like thisthat what you just described in
in that scenario is me like,because I'm like I'm putting
that invitation and doing it inthe beginning, and then as soon
as they're like, not as soon asthey accepted the invitation,
and then we get off off track.
(28:55):
I'm like okay, you acceptedthis damn invitation, like what
part of this is it, you know?
And then I get frustrated withit.
So how do we, how do we rere-invite, if you will, and stay
in our masculine right?
Because then when I getfrustrated, that's not
attractive at all, becausethey're like oh, he's losing his
shit and you know, get ittogether, buddy, and that's.
(29:17):
You know, that's not, you know.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Why are you so insecure?
All of a sudden Right exactly.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
Insecure, controlling , like everything else.
I'm just like.
No, I'm not.
It's just that you accepted thedamn invitation.
Why are we not doing it?
Okay?
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Yeah, okay, really, really good questions.
And again, just to reiterate it, these are very, very subtle
elements.
And to try to understand theguiding principle behind it,
that's really what it's about.
Every concrete situation I canthrow out there, there is going
to be 30, 40% exceptions.
So the idea is the principlebehind it.
So let's say, for example, let'stake a first date.
(29:54):
You know I extended aninvitation.
She said yes and it's happeninga week from now.
Okay, lots of stuff can happenin between, particularly if it
was online on one of the apps.
You know like time goes byreally quick.
So, first of all, first thing weneed to understand is you might
be the kind of guy that showsup when he says he's going to
show up.
That is not the experience thata lot of women have had with a
(30:17):
lot of guys.
So just realize that I said I'mgoing to be there, I'm going to
be there.
She doesn't know that about youyet.
You know, give it three or fivedates, she'll probably know
that about you, but she's notgoing to know that from the very
beginning.
So just, you know, leave alittle room for the fact that
she might need a little bit ofreassurance, convincing
(30:39):
demonstration.
You know, proof in the puddingthat you are actually that way.
Okay, so again, we set up afirst date.
There's a week that goes by,there's a bunch of ways that you
essentially just want toconfirm that the plans are still
on.
The thing I like to do isconfirm the night before morning
(30:59):
of, depending on what'shappening.
Hey, really looking forward toseeing you tonight.
Hey, really looking forward toseeing you tomorrow.
Hey, by the way, imagine yourintermarriage or
interrelationship the concert'sat seven and it's 5 tomorrow.
Hey, by the way, imagine yourinner marriage or inner
relationship the concerts atseven and it's 545.
Hey, by the way, remember wegot to find a parking spot, we
got to do all these things.
I'm not saying what's wrong withyou.
(31:20):
Why aren't you in the car?
I'm restating I'm being therock, I'm being the stable
foundation, and I'm doing itpositively by saying hey,
looking forward to seeing you.
Tomorrow Is 5.30, still good.
So subtle thing that I'm doing.
I'm one not just sending amessage, because some people
(31:43):
don't respond to messages, like,if it's just a message, I do
put in some kind of a question,so she will need to respond in
some way.
So I don't show up withoutanybody there.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
I'm also so let me ask you a quick question on this
, two questions.
I don't want to get too far off, but do you usually set dates
out that far?
A week or more, more now,sometimes, because we have
parenting schedules and planslike that?
Sometimes it's.
It's necessarily.
However, I oftentimes find andand this isn't necessarily so,
(32:18):
I'm going to state it, but I'mgoing to also say it's not
necessarily a bad thing is thatstuff goes on, or if they are
somebody like I described thathas not thought through how
they're going to actually date,it ends up getting canceled or
pushed off, et cetera, and sothen then at least for me,
that's not a bad thing, becausethen at least you know this
person is probably isn't havetheir stuff together to figure
(32:42):
out.
That's not always the case, butthen I guess what you're saying
is that gives you anotheropportunity to re-invite, right,
if they need to change it orcancel or something like that,
you don't have to necessarilytake it as a bad thing.
Maybe it is, you don't know yet, but you can re-invite and then
(33:03):
take it from there, yeah.
I take it as information.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
So you know I have certain etiquette.
What I consider to be polite,everybody does, and so with
single moms, I mean they usuallycan't be spontaneous.
My experience is they almostalways have to plan a ways out
in advance.
So I'm giving this examplebecause it's particularly
relevant, I think, to being asingle parent, at least in my
(33:28):
experience.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
For sure.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Yeah, if it can be the next day or two days later,
great, that's even better.
But you know, does this?
Can this person stick to thatcommitment?
Well, how important arecommitments to a person?
That's, you know, when we'redating, we're trying to figure
out, you know, if this person iscompatible for me.
Do we have similar ideas ofwhat, of what polite and rude
(33:52):
are, and whether or not theyshow up on the date, how we
communicate before the date, youknow, can we pin it down?
It's like well, you know, textme the night before and I'll see
what's going on.
For me is a huge turnoff.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Huge red flag, yeah, yep.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Okay, I'm not saying a red flag because I read me.
Well, okay, for me, saying it'sa red flag means there are
issues that haven't been dealtwith.
Some people might have, youknow, you know they might have a
work schedule that they don'tget to dictate it.
They might have a boss thatdecides those things for them
(34:27):
and they are on call.
They might get called out oftown or not.
I really, really reserve.
I try not to say red flag onsomething.
I simply say okay, that's notgoing to work with me, that's
not what I'm looking for, and Iknow that.
Because I don't feel good, Ifeel like I'm left hanging, I
feel disrespected.
(34:47):
Are they being disrespectful?
I don't know, I feel like I'mleft hanging.
I feel disrespected.
Are they being disrespectful?
I don't know, I don't know thefull situation that they're in.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
Yeah, well, hopefully they can say that to you, right
, like they convey the situationand that's why they have to
text the day before.
Yeah.
To me it'd be a red flag ifthey did, if they don't have
that situation and they did that, and it's like, oh, okay, well,
I think that's I completelyagree.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
However, there are plenty of other dudes on Tinder
that have no problem with therebeing a completely fluid
environment.
Here's the thing.
We're looking for what we fitwith.
We're looking for what's amatch for us.
I'm not going to say what isnot a match for me is wrong or a
red flag.
I'm going to have my opinionsabout it.
(35:30):
But labeling somebody or acertain behavior, classifying it
the reason I don't do it isactually because I don't like
how that further constricts mymind and my heart.
I want to remain open and go.
I don't know what the situationis, but I do know that they're
not showing up in a way that'sconnecting with me.
We're not landing on the dates.
(35:52):
We're not having the dates thatI'm looking for.
I don't need to know why and Idon't need to really assess the
situation further.
It leaves me free to stay in apositive, open place where
there's no like oh, a bunch ofwomen can't even do this or they
can't do that.
There's red flags all over.
I don't want to condition mymind and my heart to think that
(36:13):
way.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
Right.
It's just not going to work forme because of what I'm looking
for.
So that makes sense.
So then, if we stay open likethat, how do you if you can get
yourself into that mindset getyour mind to reframe?
How do you re-invite?
And even the next step maybeyou've already gone on some
(36:39):
dates and you've talked aboutthis and then things are not
quite happening.
How do you go about doing that?
How do you reframe your mindand how do you approach that?
How do you go about doing that?
How do you reframe your mindand how do you approach that?
Speaker 2 (36:49):
So you try to remember and stick to square one
, what it is you're looking forin your picture of what a good,
enjoyable dating relationshiplooks like.
You stick to it on your end andyou represent it Again.
You're like concert starting at7.30.
We're going to have to getmoving here.
(37:09):
I'm looking to see somebody atleast two or three times a week
and I understand stuff comes up.
We're really only seeing eachother once every two weeks.
Here Again, I'm going topresent it.
As for me, I want to be able toconnect with somebody.
I want to see them regularly, Iwant to touch them regularly, I
(37:31):
want them in my life on aregular basis.
I'm presenting all of this as apositive picture.
I'm re-inviting them not justto that event, and then they
canceled all that.
Then, three weeks later, I'mdoing another one.
All all of this turns into thissort of like contract that's
being written up and violatedand, and you know, crossed out
(37:52):
with a red line by a, by alawyer or something, and it's
like no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
That's getting lost in theinteraction and in the details.
I need to keep real clear theattractive image that I want to
experience and continue toinvite her into that experience.
Want to experience and continueto invite her into that
experience.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
And in the process.
Can we hit on that real quick?
Because what came to my mindwas sharing what that is and why
.
That's why that is somethingthat you want.
Like you said, I want toexperience you two or three
times, I want to get to know you.
Experience you two or threetimes, I want to get to know you
(38:31):
.
I want to be able to touch yousee you admire you, spend a
little bit of time, take you outand make you feel pretty.
Take you out, make you feelyeah, yeah, yeah.
So if you're sharing the whybehind what it is, it's less of
a requirement, more of aninvitation, right, but that
includes you needing to knowwhat it is and why you want to
(38:53):
do that.
And also, on the flip side ofthat, it might be that you don't
want to do that and you need tosay, hey, I'm all right with, I
just am looking once a week orwhatever, because you just want
to hook up or just havecompanionship.
Right, maybe the guys are juststarting to date again, and
that's fine too.
(39:14):
But sharing the why behind it,then it feels like makes it an
invitation more than arequirement.
Is that pretty?
Speaker 2 (39:22):
accurate, I would agree.
For me, I'm not even saying whyI want this.
I'm saying what I want and I'magain trying to paint a picture
that they can see, and they willsee attractively, because
they've got some other picturein their mind and I want them to
see what I'm after and I wantthem to see that I am very
(39:44):
attracted to this and that Ivery much enjoy this.
Why I enjoy this?
It's kind of a you know, that'skind of like a deeper question,
like Dallas, why do you enjoy,you know, physical affection so
much?
Well, that's, I don't know,it's going to childhood stuff or
you know, we'll go into whoknows what, you know, into the
why.
What is?
(40:04):
I want to be able to sit andhold your hand at least three
times a week, even if it's just30 minutes.
You're waiting for your kid toget out of school.
I need to be able to sit downand hold your hand because I
want to know that, like I'm, I'mthe guy holding your hand.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
I want to you know.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
I want to be able to, you know, rub your back or
something you know, once a week,because I want you to know the
kind of home life that I want usto move towards.
Why?
Is kind of obvious, I think, ifyou're presenting it as an
attractive picture.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
Yeah, okay, that makes sense.
So that's a little bit nuancedtoo.
So for you, trauma dumpers,don't get into your childhood
trauma and why you need to betouched right, that's going to
be unattractive.
But sharing what it is that youwant not necessarily and maybe
not necessarily a deep whybehind it, but just what it is
(41:00):
that you want, and then they canput the picture together it
makes a lot more sense.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
And they will accept with enthusiasm the invitation
of what you're talking about,and this includes physical touch
, this includes being sexual,this includes going on dates,
this includes different types ofoutings.
You'll extend that invitationwith the thing you like and they
will accept it with enthusiasm.
Those are the best cases.
They will accept it more orless with consent, which isn't a
(41:30):
whole lot of feelings, andthey're just sort of checking it
out to see how things go, orthey'll reject the invitation.
The important thing as a guy isto realize I'm looking for
information about what thiswoman does with my invitations.
I want to be dating women thatare enthusiastically writing yes
(41:51):
, all caps at the bottom of myinvitations so that when I'm
confirming the day beforethey're like yeah, absolutely
Looking forward to seeing youtomorrow.
By the way, just to circle backto that, when I said, is 5.30
still good for you, I amdemonstrating proactively
flexibility by saying that.
I'm saying hey, if you needsome accommodations, if
(42:13):
something is going on, I'm thekind of guy that's okay with
that.
I am not the kind of guy thatsays we said 530.
If you're not there at 530,you're not living up to my
expectations.
That is a huge, huge turnoff towomen.
And again, that slips intocontrolling and that slips into,
well, you know, we agreed tothis and now you're not living
up to the contract.
(42:34):
The book I think it's RobertGlover, I think no More, mr Nice
Guy that the heart of that bookis about social contracts,
agreements, most of which areunwritten, most of which are
unwritten, and us saying I amentitled to this because
somebody agreed to it or becauseI thought society promised it
to me.
(42:54):
What I'm saying is guys, comeback to square one, write an
attractive invitation, extend it, see what she does with it, and
you're looking for women thatenthusiastically say yes to what
you're inviting them toexperience and then you invite
them more and then, hopefully,they accept it more.
(43:15):
Whenever they are not acceptingit, that information to tell
you this might not be a fit forwhat you're looking for.
It's that simple.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
So it's all feedback.
So the invitations arecontinual feedback for you and
if you're not getting theexcitement or participation or
energy whatever it is that youneed through that, then it's
helping you to decide.
Okay, well, this is maybe notsomething that's going to work
(43:47):
out.
This is not the relationship orthis is not the structure of a
relationship that I want.
I wanted to comment, dr Robert,on all of this, and maybe this
helps us put a neat bow on it.
Dr Robert Glover's got a reallygood analogy.
He talks about baking the cake.
(44:07):
Like you're baking this cake ofyour life with these
invitations, and basically theseinvitations are stuff that you
like to do, that you'reinterested in, that you've come
up with Because you've designedyour life, you've curated your
life to know what you want to do, the direction you want, the
family life that you want, etcetera.
(44:28):
So by creating theseinvitations out to them, you've
baked your cake, which is thelifestyle, the environment that
you want, and then you'reinviting her into it and he
describes it as then her as theicing on the cake right, that
she comes alongside you, as theicing on the cake in this
(44:51):
environment that you've created.
That's not diminishing a woman,it just means that you're
taking a leadership role, you'reasserting your masculine nature
, which is leading leading therelationship, leading your life,
creating an environment forthem.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
Yeah, again, I feel like that's a little bit of a
slippery slope to say that weare the cake and they're the
frosting.
To me it's a little slipperyand we're leading the
relationship or we're leadingthe experience.
I'm inviting someone to arelationship, I'm inviting them
to an experience, and the way Ilook at it is I'm writing the
(45:27):
invitation, so I am authoring itfrom scratch.
I'm the author.
When I slide it across thetable, you know what's going to
happen like more than half thetime.
She's going to edit thatinvitation, so I'm authoring it,
but she's changing it, she'sediting it, and that is the
contribution.
And it's not a fair division oflabor, because anybody knows
(45:52):
this.
Writing something from scratchtakes more effort.
You have to come up with justfrom nothing.
You have to come up with thesecreative ideas, slide them
across the table and she'll belike yeah, I don't know about
that.
How about we do this?
And and one of the things wehave to look for is what kind of
an editor is she?
Is she respectful of the effortthat we put out?
(46:14):
Is she collaborating, is shelooking towards something shared
, or is she being a bit of aprincess?
Is she collaborating, is shelooking towards something shared
, or is she being a bit of aprincess?
Is she being selfish?
Is she just and again, like yousaid, that's the information
that we're constantly gatheringin the dating process to see if
they're the right fit, right,but I would posit that the
feedback and how you handle itand her editing process is
(46:37):
effective leadership.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
So if you're just pissed and you're like, oh, then
that's obviously not strongleadership, that's you being
butthurt and having an ego.
But if you are a healthy leaderand you do take that, a healthy
leader is going to takefeedback and then we can take it
to the next step.
When you're leading your familyand your relationship, then
(47:00):
you're taking feedback all ofthe time as a leader and you're
making adjustments and you haveto do that.
So, so I, so so I, I still, Istill view it as you leading the
relationship and I feel likeyou are that us as men and
especially as as dads, becausethen if, depending on what you
want with a relationshiphopefully it's a healthy
(47:21):
romantic relationship then thatyour kids are watching you have
with this person, then they arewatching you be a healthy,
effective leader then with thisperson.
So I still, I still, I stillcall it leadership.
I think it's important that youare, that you are leading.
I know that's a loaded wordthese days and women don't want
(47:42):
to be led or they don't want tobe submissive, and and, and and
men to some extent, haveabdicated that, uh, that
responsibility, a whole lot, andthen it gets back, but that's a
whole nother podcast episode,right, that, uh, that we can get
into.
But maybe we just wrap it upthen with the idea of leadership
(48:07):
being getting feedback andhaving to then make adjustments
around that and understandingthat there's a difference in the
dynamics and how they're comingfrom.
Oh, another thing I wanted tosay is part of that baking the
cake, I feel in the context of adivorced dad, is you have to,
(48:31):
because you've got the familyalready.
So part of this is you do haveto invite somebody in to some
extent, that they're going tohave to buy into your
environment and the yeah and thelife that you have you have
created, because if they becausesome of it is just
automatically, is automaticallyset, you can't, you can't change
(48:52):
it.
You can't change it.
You have, however, many kids.
Hopefully you're not going toadvocate that responsibility and
that duty right to which somepeople, some, some men, do right
, find the other one, leave thefamily, which is messed up, and
we don't need to go down thatone.
But so some of it is that youare creating that, and that goes
to what we talked about lastweek, which is really knowing
(49:12):
what it is that you want, andcreating that environment, et
cetera.
So maybe we'll just wrap it uparound that.
Speaker 2 (49:18):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I completely agree witheverything you said.
And again, the word leadershipit's a broad term.
My particular way is make sureyou're exercising
self-leadership that's thepicture you have of yourself and
then you're extending aninvitation for someone else to
experience that leadership aspart of their experience as well
.
Yeah, certain parts of being adad, it's a package deal.
(49:39):
The kids are there.
This isn't going to change.
This is simply part of theelements that are coming into it
and you do want to have reallystrong boundaries in those areas
.
Extending an invitation is fora particular part of the life
and there are certain parametersthat can change.
But, to your point, there's awhole lot that doesn't.
Yeah, there's a whole episodewaiting right here on that
(50:01):
leadership component.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
Yeah, and I want to make the point too is this may
be uncomfortable.
So if you are a codependent, wetalked about the no more Mr
Dice guy.
Really, it's a repackaging ofcodependency and talking about
how to not be a codependent guywithin the context of
relationships in your life butthis might be uncomfortable for
you and it's going to be achallenge and a work in progress
(50:27):
for you to have to deal withthat discomfort around this and
going back, wrapping it backaround to the Joe Jonas and
Sophie Turner thing, wrapping itback around to the Joe Jonas
and Sophie Turner thing therewas probably not this dynamic.
That was a healthy dynamic.
Otherwise she wouldn't havejust taken off unilaterally and
(50:50):
done her own thing.
I think that we see thatprobably in a lot of our
relationships, so some of thismight be a mirror for you guys.
Right, if you're not gettingthe feedback, and that's not a
bad thing either this is allfeedback there for you guys,
right, if you're not getting thefeedback, and that's not a bad
thing either, this is allfeedback.
There's no failure, right?
There's no failure.
She says no on a to a date.
There's no failure if itdoesn't go how you want it to.
It's all feedback, so some ofthis might be a mirror that's
(51:12):
feedback-like, and I know thatthis was the case for me.
Speaker 2 (51:20):
I was like, oh man, like I got a lot of work to do,
but that's okay, yeah, and thereis.
There is to your point.
There is so much discomfort inbehaving differently in this way
.
But I can tell you, becauseI've I've gone through the
process myself, the amount offresh air and breathing room
that you get on the oppositeside, not being tethered and
attached to the outcome and toanother person, having to be
(51:44):
happy by what I am or I'm notdoing, it is so worth the
discomfort, it is really worthit, Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (51:50):
And that's like a whole other episode too, which
is don't be tied to outcomes.
Right, that is a tremendous one, but let's leave that as a hook
for a future one.
Not being tied to, becausethat's a tough one, but the
freedom, like you said, and I'lljust reiterate, is just
tremendous in your life.
On that, Awesome.
Well, that was really reallygood, Dallas, those that are
(52:15):
listening how can they get intouch with you to get some more
of your pearls of wisdom?
Speaker 2 (52:20):
Thanks, jude.
Yeah, find me on YouTube.
That's the best way to get longform material.
If you're interested in knowingabout my group and private
coaching and events that I'm ataround town, check out
blackboxdatingcom.
And, jude, thanks again forhaving me on.
It is so fun being your co-hoston Dad's Dating After Divorce.
I just love digging into stuffwith you.
You bring so much interestingquestions you know to the table.
Speaker 1 (52:44):
Thanks, my friend and and and I appreciate your
ability to, to, to cut throughsome of this, some of this stuff
.
And you know we've been, wejust revamped and doing this to,
like last week, this week.
You've just got stuff spinningin my head now Like I'm thinking
about all this.
I'm like man, he said this andhe said that, and like every
week that I'm thinking, oh, man,so so thank you, I appreciate
(53:08):
it.
Dads that are listening thatwant some more support around,
wherever you're at in yourdivorce, even if it's
post-divorce check outthedivorcedadvocatecom.
We've got all kinds ofresources there for you to check
out as well.
So, Dallas, have a terrificweek and we'll talk to everybody
soon.
Thanks you too.
Bye.
Hello and welcome to the show.
Divorced or Dad's Dating AfterDivorce.
My name is Jude Sandvall.
I'm the founder of the DivorcedAdvocate, my co-host, dallas
Bluth, founder of Black BoxDating.
How are you doing, dallas?
I'm doing great.
How are you doing?
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Jude.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
I'm doing good, but apparently I have too many
podcasts going on and I can'tremember which one I'm recording
at the moment.
So, yeah, that's a challengesometimes, Well having kids and
work and all of that stuff.
So the dads that are listeningI'm sure have a little bit of
grace for me around that andknow how that brain just kind of
diverts off into all differentdirections.
(00:39):
But anyway, I would try to keepit back focused on dads dating
after divorce, because we gotsome fun conversation to chat
about today and I'll give yousome background, because I
didn't on how I found this.
So Joe Jonas and Sophie Turnerare two kind of mega stars.
(01:00):
One's an actress, one is a popmusic star, and guess he
probably I think he does someacting too.
I don't know really much ofwhat they do.
I know my daughters havelistened to some of their stuff
and talked about some of theirstuff, but so I read something
recently that she said about hernever coming back to the united
(01:21):
states.
I guess she lives in the UK andthat's where she's from, and so
I had read that article earlierin the week thinking, oh
interesting, because I had readabout their contentious divorce
months and months ago, and this,I guess, was last year.
It's all been finalized.
So I started to do someresearch into it because I was
thinking well, she lives overthere, he lives over here.
(01:43):
How is that going to work inparenting and whatnot?
And so then was reading alittle bit more about it and
thought this would be a goodtopic for us to talk about how
people are co-parenting.
You have different lives and so, you know, I put together the
little perspective of what wecould talk about and I thought
it was really, reallyinteresting because, for when I
(02:06):
sent it to, you came back withsome really great ideas hey, we
could talk about this and wecould talk about this.
And I'm thinking, oh, my gosh,this is really interesting
because those weren't the top.
Those things that crossed mymind weren't like the top two,
one or two things that crossedmy mind.
So that's cool.
This is going to be a greatconversation because you, being
the dating and relationshipcoach, have a perspective that
(02:27):
is really honed in, honed in onon some specific stuff with the
dads and how they can mitigatesome stuff.
In mind is a little bit of adifferent perspective, right,
having, you know, having been adad, talking with thousands of
dads and also been dating as adad for the last decade, right,
(02:49):
so let's dive into it.
It's just really, reallyinteresting.
So for the listeners, especiallythe ones that are the older
guys like me, right, that don'tknow they were married like me,
right, that's, I don't know theywere married.
I'm not sure how long they weremarried, but they have two
(03:15):
young daughters.
They got separated last yearand immediately became
contentious because what JoeJonas did is he filed to keep
his daughters in the UnitedStates, basically, and then that
created a bunch of uproar andwith the pundits and media and
social media and all that crapwhich we're not gonna get into
because we don't know how adivorce proceeds and there's so
(03:37):
many idiosyncrasies in everysingle person's divorce that
when these public divorces comeout, we don't really know the
dynamics of them.
So we don't really know.
But what I will say is Irespect the fact that he, as a
dad, beginning from like rightfrom the beginning, saying, hey,
I want to be spending time withmy daughters, I'm going to make
(03:59):
sure to protect this is how Iread it that I'm going to
protect my daughters, protect mytime with my daughters.
I don't know if that's in factwhat he was doing or if there
were issues behind the scenes,et cetera.
People were saying he's tryingto take his daughters from her.
You know all that, all thatcrap.
But from a dad's perspective, Iappreciated that he was engaged
immediately in that and perhapsprotecting his time with his
(04:23):
daughters because it is reallyimportant.
So that was one of my firstthings when this whole thing
happened.
And then listening to her say,well, I'm never leaving the UK,
I started to think, well, okay,how does that work with
parenting time, with, likethat's not just dropping them
off after school to somewhereelse.
(04:46):
They're living in a completelydifferent country for part of
the time and in another completedifferent country part of the
time.
So that's where my mind andthen I started thinking, well,
like, how do you date doing thatand how do you?
There's so many things that gointo that.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
So I just want to jump in and say using a word
like never is drawing a reallyhard line in the sand saying I'm
never leaving this country.
I'm never coming back over there.
I mean, if you're going toco-parent, if you're going to
co-operate in anything, thewords never need to be reserved
for you know, absolutely cannotcross that line situations when
(05:27):
you're an international, youknow, actress, musician or
whatever.
The idea that location is never, I mean, is just kind of silly.
You know, that's not what thelifestyle is like, what she's
never going to set foot in theUS again for her career.
That just seems ridiculouscareer.
That just seems ridiculous.
So the fact that she's sayingnever to me kind of strikes more
(05:48):
of a, you know, a clearlyconfrontational and you know,
kind of picking a fight in a way, and that please speak into
this.
But that is the last thing thatyou want to be modeling for
your children is the fact thatyou're going to draw arbitrary
hard lines against your formerpartner and model this for the
(06:08):
kids.
But you tell me what you think,because you've been through the
divorce.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
You've been through the trenches, yeah, so that's a
really good point, and I thinkthat might go a little bit to
why he took some preemptiveaction.
And unfortunately, I see thisall the time, and I hear this
all the time of a parent movinga kid or doing something just
(06:32):
unilaterally.
That's just not, it'sinappropriate, it's not healthy
for the kids, it's just not theway to do something.
So hearing her talk about thison the back end like that and
making statements like thismakes me think that maybe there
is a little bit of an issuebehind the scenes that we don't
see or hear.
But he did also just come outrecently on a podcast and was
(06:55):
talking about what a good momshe is.
So I have a great deal ofrespect for him and, as far as I
can see, neither one of themhave really bad mouthed each
other.
So that is definitelydefinitely a positive thing.
So, but but also to your pointabout saying never, then this
article from the New York Post,page six, shows the two of them
(07:16):
walking around in New Yorktogether, right, so?
So apparently that never didn'tlast, never, ever.
It lasted until she had to comeback to New York, or maybe that
was the drop off, who knowsLike who knows how this is
working.
But this is a little extremeexample because maybe I can't
ever see a parenting plan likethis working and being really a
(07:39):
positive for kids.
Because it's the time frame,because their kids are like four
and two, so it's really reallyyoung, and how do you spend
months at one place and monthsat the other?
But again, I'm not a superstar.
Maybe there's a benefit to thisfor why they did that.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
It's actually the nannies and the handlers that
are providing the security forthe children.
They're the ones flying themback and forth.
They're actually providing thestable structure at this point
for the kids.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Yeah, it almost seems like a Brad Pitt Angelina Jolie
setup where it's yeah, you arethe quote-unquote parents of
record, but there's a whole lotof other things and people and
dynamics going in to that whichmost everybody listening to this
and you and I are just nevergoing to have another
understanding.
But I think it is interestingto listen to some of that
(08:33):
perspective of hearing.
So why would you justunilaterally, then just go move
to another country and do thatwithout taking the time to talk
with your soon to be ex about,hey, what is going to be the
most effective way for us to goabout doing this?
(08:56):
So that's something.
That is something.
That that is something.
So here's here's a perspectivethat I was thinking is one of my
top ones is, when you're out inthe world of dating, then after
divorce, and you are inevitablygoing to be meeting other women
that are divorced and havechildren what is their parenting
(09:21):
time, what is their structure?
And kind of some questions toask around.
That is how did you come upwith this parenting time, what
is their structure?
And kind of some questions toask around.
That is how did you come up withthis parenting time?
Why did you decide to do this?
What does this look like inpractice?
How is your you know some ofthose things to try to get this
perspective of?
Hey, do they have a couplethings?
(09:42):
Do they have the kid's bestinterest in mind?
First, because if eventuallylet's talk about, depending on
what your long-term goal is, isyour long-term goal to blend a
family?
And if it is to blend a family,you want to know that that
person's mindset is aroundfamily first.
They're going to be makingthose decisions.
If they go and they dosomething like this took off to
(10:05):
Florida or the UK or whatever,and then work things out working
backwards from that, that mightbe a sign to pay attention to,
because that's probably adecision-making process that is
not isolated to just the parentsor just the parenting time.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Yeah, yeah, I'd say that, you know, coming back to
making an absolute statementlike never.
You know that that's a bit of ared flag to hear someone say
that it's great, to hear thatthey're talking well of each
other, speaking well of eachother, that that bodes well.
I am a little bit whenever Isee somebody essentially making
a power play or a power move.
For me, that's oftentimes asignal that the person is
(10:50):
compensating for a situation inwhich they don't feel very
powerful.
People that feel like they havepower in a situation they're
confident they don't need tomake power moves.
They'll set boundaries, but aboundary is simply saying no to
something, but to say that I'mnever going to do this or we're
going to unilaterally make thismove.
(11:12):
People that have a deep-seatedsense of confidence in
themselves simply don't need tobehave that way.
We only puff up our chest andturn our language into absolute
type statements when we'retrying to shore up what feels
inside of us like a weakposition.
So for me, when I'm dating awoman that has kids, or going on
(11:36):
a date with a woman that haskids, I definitely listen to the
way that she talks about her ex, to the way she talks about the
situation.
To be honest, though, most ofthe time my only question when
I'm dating a single woman iswhat percentage of the time do
(11:57):
you have your kids?
And at the moment I'm simplyasking it from a selfish point
of view is are you available toactually date?
Because the women that have kids100% of the time.
I mean maybe if they make agood income and they're happy
paying for babysitters, but alot of the time I've struggled
to find women that have kids100% of the time that are
thinking that way.
It's sort of like, well, I justhave to join their life if I'm
(12:18):
going to do it.
So single moms that have no dadin the picture a lot of the
times, I'm like well, unlessthere is some cosmic connection
happening between the two of us,I'll probably keep looking,
because there's almost no wayfor me to get to know them as an
adult, to assess whether or notwe're good with each other,
(12:41):
before I get introduced to anyeven just the corners, the
fringes of their adult life.
I've, I've, seen it as a hugered flag when I get introduced
way too early into into, youknow, a woman's family life.
I shouldn't, I shouldn't beintroduced to that for quite a
while, in my opinion, severalmonths at least.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Yeah, so that's yeah, well, that's a lot of good
information, but that's a reallygood point.
I wasn't necessarily thinkingabout going down that route, but
I think it's a.
I think it's a good, importantone to to go down, both for the
dads and also for payingattention to.
To hear dating with which isthat?
That's time management, part ofit it is, and you pointed out
(13:25):
the situation.
If a woman has the kids 100% ofthe time, what is her dating
strategy?
So this is a question that Iwill ask up front.
All the time is.
So what is your strategy fordating, like, what have you
created?
How have you curated your lifein order to put aside time?
(13:47):
You mentioned time.
There's no other way to get toknow somebody other than
spending quality time with them.
So you can text and send cardsand whatever, but that's not
going to do anything.
It's not going to build a deep,meaningful relationship with
somebody over a period of timeunless you're spending time with
(14:08):
them.
So that's one of the questionsI ask and I got to tell you and
not just the, the, the womenthat are updated, that are, that
are divorced moms or singlemoms that that that have a
hundred percent is money.
Women, I don't think, puttogether a strategy.
A strategy, and I think maybethat's the difference between
the male brain and the femalebrain, and maybe you can speak
(14:30):
to this because oftentimes, evenif they have a parenting
schedule and they do have ahealthy relationship with the
dad, they have no clue orconcept.
There's not something thatthey've even thought about.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Right, and I think that's actually turns into a
frustration for a lot of guys.
One of the things is and I'msure we've all heard this women
are like I just want it tohappen organically.
I just want it to happen,naturally.
It's just going to happen.
Well, okay, that's great andit's wonderful it happens.
But in the guy's head we'relike but if we don't do things
to make it happen, it's nevergoing to happen.
(15:09):
Obviously we're speaking inhuge gross generalizations here,
but generally speaking, guystend to like to see like a step
A, step B, step C process and alot of times women want it to
kind of happen.
But it happening a lot of timesis because the guy's planning
something, inviting something,and she just feels like it's a
(15:31):
natural occurrence.
So, yeah, a lot of women well, Idon't know, I mean I feel like
a lot of women, you know, arevery, very, very structured,
particularly if they're singlemoms, almost to the point where
there's no flexibility I'veactually experienced that quite
a bit to see what theiravailability is and realize that
(16:01):
, as a single dad, people aregoing to make assumptions about
your availability or lack ofavailability and they're not
necessarily going to take thetime to ask that question.
So I think, advertising it,packaging yourself in it, as you
know, I'm a single dad and youknow I have my kids three days
out of the week.
You know the rest of the week,you know, is my life to live,
(16:21):
however I like, and you knowthose sorts of things, because
otherwise people could just sortof you know, paint with a broad
stroke what your availabilityis, what your attractiveness is
as a single dad, and I thinkit's important to show that.
No, no, no, I have plenty oftime carved out for connections.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Yeah, that's a great point.
That sounds to me on a datingprofile.
I'm a single dad who has hisshit together, right Like a line
in there in your summary Asingle dad has his shit together
.
A single dad with plenty of roomto breathe, yeah shit together
first, a single dad with plentyof room to breathe, yeah, yeah,
(17:01):
yeah, there you go, which is,which is a great point.
So we're, we're as a single dad.
There's just going to be.
We're going to get weeded outby some, some people, and that's
fine.
Some, some people don't want toto to deal with what what
entails of just children.
Maybe somebody doesn't want todeal with children and,
depending what age your childrenare like, for instance, these
(17:21):
two have young kids that arefour and two, and my children
were six, four and two when thisprocess started, when I started
my divorce.
So I can understand that andthat's a whole different dynamic
and your time is takendifferently than what I'm
experiencing now, which is 19,17-year-old, 15-year-old and
older, and your time frees upand you have different ways to
(17:43):
do that.
But I would encourage dads tomaybe take the lead in having
that conversation, but also,like you said, I don't know
necessarily advertising it, butjust talking about what your
your vision is for dating andhow you want to go, have a
(18:06):
process for what you want and so, and that can be different if
you're just casually dating, orthat can be, and that is going
to definitely be different ifyou're looking to have a
long-term relationship or arelationship that ends in
marriage.
But have that process, know whatthat means.
Are you going to be seeing eachother three times a week, four
(18:30):
times a week?
What is that and what are those?
Is that getting together?
Is that doing things, et cetera?
We're going to do that until wefeel comfortable, both
committing to an exclusiverelationship.
That's generally going to bethis timeframe, and then we're
going to date exclusively afterthat.
What does exclusively mean?
(18:51):
That could be different todifferent people, right?
Like I've been in monogamousrelationships where I was the
only one monogamous, right?
So that's different todifferent people.
So I would say be very, veryclear, very, very definite and
defined in what you're doing.
(19:13):
You just don't have the time towaste.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
I can also hear the voices of many, many, many women
that I have spoken with sayingyes, be clear about the process,
but don't try to control mewith your process.
Don't try to dictate to me whatthis is going to look like.
So for me, I completely, 100%,agree with what you're saying
and realize that this is, atleast in the beginning, an
(19:40):
internal process.
This is what I would like it tolook like.
This is how many days orevenings a week that I would
like to be able to get together.
This is what it means to me tobe committed to each other.
This is what it means to bemonogamous with somebody,
although I thought that term waspretty clear.
Yeah, so did I.
Yeah.
(20:03):
And the more we have thosethings clearly defined inside of
us, it becomes a matter ofsharing it, voicing it and
really just kind of I like theword informing the other person
of what we're looking for whenwe talk about, well, what's this
relationship going to look like?
And it becomes thiscollaborative effort.
(20:25):
There's a little more push andpull.
I have found that women love tofeel that they're being
presented with lots ofinformation.
Well, not lots of information.
That's overstating it.
With lots of information well,not lots of information, that's
overstating it.
Women like men to presentwhat's going on inside them very
clearly, but not require themto make a decision about it
right away.
They don't have to agree ordisagree, they definitely don't
(20:47):
have to conform and they don'tfeel controlled by it.
That, I have found, is whatmakes women feel the most
attractive.
I have found is what makeswomen feel the most attractive
Clarity in what I'm looking forand what turns me on, and even
you know, having a vision thatyou're sharing of this is what a
blended family would look like.
(21:07):
This sounds awesome to me, andthen just wait and see how she
responds to that image.
But it's very important to bean image and a process that
we're sharing, that makes senseto us, that we embrace
positively and we are not,because it is so easy for guys
to be like oh, I'm beingassertive, I'm being dominant,
I'm being the man and that willturn women off.
(21:32):
So so fast if they're being toldwhat they're going to enjoy.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
So so fast if they're being told what they're going
to enjoy.
So let's dial down on that alittle bit, because I feel like
your assessment is absolutelyright.
Sometimes it's been myexperience that it's a mixed
message.
I want you to be assertive, Iwant you to, but then it is when
(21:57):
it doesn't go their way, orwhen it's not, yeah, it's like I
don't I don't even know how todescribe it that's not
comfortable to them or it'ssomething that they don't want.
Then it becomes you're toocontrolling.
So it's like okay, well, yousaid you wanted me to be
assertive, and and, and.
So I've been assertive.
I've laid out kind of how Ifeel, what I think.
(22:17):
We've talked about this.
You've, you've even agreed tothis and said, yeah, like three
days is good and let's do that.
And then, and then you get down.
You get down the road a littlebit, and what I mean a little
bit is that we're talking aboutin the beginning, maybe, when
you're just dating, and thenyou're not, none of this stuff
is happening.
And then you start saying, well, hey, we talked about this.
(22:40):
And then it's like you're beingcontrolling, like well, not
actually, not like we, just we,we talked about all this, and
some of this is communication.
Right, I'm assuming that you'regoing to tell me that you need
to be better at communicating.
Maybe you haven't beencommunicating well, or or
whatever it is, but I find thata lot that it's when it's when,
it's when they, when they don'thave the assertiveness they want
(23:02):
the assertiveness, when theyget the assertiveness, it's like
you're too controlling.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Right, right, right, dude man like this is.
This is the biggest,squirreliest topic, because you
know almost everything that I oranyone can say.
You will find plenty of examplesto the contrary, and for me,
the fundamental guidingprinciple behind it is one
(23:29):
getting square with myself,knowing where I am, what's the
process that I like, that Ienjoy, that looks really good to
me, and being open to thatbeing changed and improved with
time.
When I have that picture andI'm again I'm not entering into
a conversation about what isthis relationship going to look
like I'm going to tell them thekind of relationship that looks
(23:51):
very attractive to me and thensee how they respond to that.
They're like, oh man, thatsounds awesome.
Or like, I don't really know,that sounds like getting
together a lot every week.
But you leave it as twodistinct people having that
conversation, and the way I dothat is by presenting where I'm
coming from individually.
Now here's the real trick, andthis is the thing that a lot of
(24:16):
guys never make the distinctionon.
Anything that you are puttingout there as a man needs to be
presented as an invitation.
Good point you know our dynamic,whatever it is.
(24:38):
I have a picture and I amwriting up a pretty little
invitation, you know, in cursive, with diagrams or whatever.
I'm sliding it across the tableand I am inviting you to join
in that picture with me.
Okay, no woman gets pissed offat a guy for extending an
invitation.
What we don't realize is, guys,is we will quickly and easily
(25:00):
go from inviting to requesting,or inviting to expecting, or
inviting to demanding, orinviting to holding someone, to
an agreement or a contract thatwe thought we drew up six months
ago, an agreement or a contractthat we thought we drew up six
(25:20):
months ago, and she's apparentlynot in the same place.
Just to speak to those changingelements, guys, basic masculine
energy, grounded, solid, amountain, the rock that she can
count on.
That's not to say you can't beemotional, that's not to say you
can't change your mind, but youwant to have a grounded, rooted
(25:44):
nature to yourself, and thereason for that is because, one,
it's just basically attractiveto all men and women.
Men that are grounded are veryattractive.
Two, the more grounded you areas a man, the more she can relax
and free herself up and go intoa more feminine place, and the
more she's in that carefreefeminine place, the more room
there is for the dynamic tohappen back and forth.
(26:05):
Okay, there's ups and downs tothat.
That feminine energy, once itstarts to come out and it's
free-flowing, she's going to bemore happy, more giddy, more
playful and probably more horny,because that's how that's.
When women are lighthearted,they tend to be more interested
in sex.
But we also have to realize thatat the same time, they're going
(26:28):
to be carefree means they mightbe more fluid in the moment,
they might change their mindsmore often and particularly if
you enter into a relationshipwith someone and they begin to
relax, a woman, and they beginto relax and they begin to be
more themselves, they begin tobe more fluid and feminine
(26:51):
themselves, they begin to bemore fluid and feminine.
We have to accept that.
That fluidity is part of thefeminine nature and we need to
make plenty of room for her tobe that way and just let her do
it and then restate on our end.
So you know, sex is kind ofpart of who I am.
You know this is.
And again, we present wherewe're coming from.
(27:13):
We present an attractiveinvitation for them to join in
the experience and they'll go ohyeah, of course I forgot you
know and they'll just changetheir mind back again.
But we, but we, have to letthem be in that carefree space
if we want to enjoy the femininequalities.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Okay, that makes great sense.
Let's come up with an exampleof this, because it's very
nuanced, right, because you'retalking about an invitation and
in my mind, in my dude mind, I'mlike all right, once you accept
the invitation, then it's anevent, like it's like this is
(27:51):
the time and dates, and then youjust set to the time and date.
But what you're saying is andand this makes sense, but this
is probably this is one of thedifficult challenges in
masculine feminine dynamics isthat's not necessarily like
accepting an invitation to awoman doesn't then define time
(28:13):
and date and ongoing, and like,yeah, this is, whereas a guy is
like this is it, it's the timeand date, and we said we're
gonna do it three times thisthis week, whatever it is, and
for her it's a little bitdifferent.
So in in in application, how doyou?
Little bit different.
So in in in application, how doyou?
How do you revisit thatinvitation because I love you?
(28:34):
You said, well, it's aninvitation, then becomes a, a
request, then becomes a demand.
I don't remember what all thewords were, but I can see this
and I can see this like thisthat what you just described in
in that scenario is me like,because I'm like I'm putting
that invitation and doing it inthe beginning, and then as soon
as they're like, not as soon asthey accepted the invitation,
and then we get off off track.
(28:55):
I'm like okay, you acceptedthis damn invitation, like what
part of this is it, you know?
And then I get frustrated withit.
So how do we, how do we rere-invite, if you will, and stay
in our masculine right?
Because then when I getfrustrated, that's not
attractive at all, becausethey're like oh, he's losing his
shit and you know, get ittogether, buddy, and that's.
(29:17):
You know, that's not, you know.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Why are you so insecure?
All of a sudden Right exactly.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
Insecure, controlling , like everything else.
I'm just like.
No, I'm not.
It's just that you accepted thedamn invitation.
Why are we not doing it?
Okay?
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Yeah, okay, really, really good questions.
And again, just to reiterate it, these are very, very subtle
elements.
And to try to understand theguiding principle behind it,
that's really what it's about.
Every concrete situation I canthrow out there, there is going
to be 30, 40% exceptions.
So the idea is the principlebehind it.
So let's say, for example, let'stake a first date.
(29:54):
You know I extended aninvitation.
She said yes and it's happeninga week from now.
Okay, lots of stuff can happenin between, particularly if it
was online on one of the apps.
You know like time goes byreally quick.
So, first of all, first thing weneed to understand is you might
be the kind of guy that showsup when he says he's going to
show up.
That is not the experience thata lot of women have had with a
(30:17):
lot of guys.
So just realize that I said I'mgoing to be there, I'm going to
be there.
She doesn't know that about youyet.
You know, give it three or fivedates, she'll probably know
that about you, but she's notgoing to know that from the very
beginning.
So just, you know, leave alittle room for the fact that
she might need a little bit ofreassurance, convincing
(30:39):
demonstration.
You know, proof in the puddingthat you are actually that way.
Okay, so again, we set up afirst date.
There's a week that goes by,there's a bunch of ways that you
essentially just want toconfirm that the plans are still
on.
The thing I like to do isconfirm the night before morning
(30:59):
of, depending on what'shappening.
Hey, really looking forward toseeing you tonight.
Hey, really looking forward toseeing you tomorrow.
Hey, by the way, imagine yourintermarriage or
interrelationship the concert'sat seven and it's 5 tomorrow.
Hey, by the way, imagine yourinner marriage or inner
relationship the concerts atseven and it's 545.
Hey, by the way, remember wegot to find a parking spot, we
got to do all these things.
I'm not saying what's wrong withyou.
(31:20):
Why aren't you in the car?
I'm restating I'm being therock, I'm being the stable
foundation, and I'm doing itpositively by saying hey,
looking forward to seeing you.
Tomorrow Is 5.30, still good.
So subtle thing that I'm doing.
I'm one not just sending amessage, because some people
(31:43):
don't respond to messages, like,if it's just a message, I do
put in some kind of a question,so she will need to respond in
some way.
So I don't show up withoutanybody there.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
I'm also so let me ask you a quick question on this
, two questions.
I don't want to get too far off, but do you usually set dates
out that far?
A week or more, more now,sometimes, because we have
parenting schedules and planslike that?
Sometimes it's.
It's necessarily.
However, I oftentimes find andand this isn't necessarily so,
(32:18):
I'm going to state it, but I'mgoing to also say it's not
necessarily a bad thing is thatstuff goes on, or if they are
somebody like I described thathas not thought through how
they're going to actually date,it ends up getting canceled or
pushed off, et cetera, and sothen then at least for me,
that's not a bad thing, becausethen at least you know this
person is probably isn't havetheir stuff together to figure
(32:42):
out.
That's not always the case, butthen I guess what you're saying
is that gives you anotheropportunity to re-invite, right,
if they need to change it orcancel or something like that,
you don't have to necessarilytake it as a bad thing.
Maybe it is, you don't know yet, but you can re-invite and then
(33:03):
take it from there, yeah.
I take it as information.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
So you know I have certain etiquette.
What I consider to be polite,everybody does, and so with
single moms, I mean they usuallycan't be spontaneous.
My experience is they almostalways have to plan a ways out
in advance.
So I'm giving this examplebecause it's particularly
relevant, I think, to being asingle parent, at least in my
(33:28):
experience.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
For sure.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Yeah, if it can be the next day or two days later,
great, that's even better.
But you know, does this?
Can this person stick to thatcommitment?
Well, how important arecommitments to a person?
That's, you know, when we'redating, we're trying to figure
out, you know, if this person iscompatible for me.
Do we have similar ideas ofwhat, of what polite and rude
(33:52):
are, and whether or not theyshow up on the date, how we
communicate before the date, youknow, can we pin it down?
It's like well, you know, textme the night before and I'll see
what's going on.
For me is a huge turnoff.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Huge red flag, yeah, yep.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Okay, I'm not saying a red flag because I read me.
Well, okay, for me, saying it'sa red flag means there are
issues that haven't been dealtwith.
Some people might have, youknow, you know they might have a
work schedule that they don'tget to dictate it.
They might have a boss thatdecides those things for them
(34:27):
and they are on call.
They might get called out oftown or not.
I really, really reserve.
I try not to say red flag onsomething.
I simply say okay, that's notgoing to work with me, that's
not what I'm looking for, and Iknow that.
Because I don't feel good, Ifeel like I'm left hanging, I
feel disrespected.
(34:47):
Are they being disrespectful?
I don't know, I feel like I'mleft hanging.
I feel disrespected.
Are they being disrespectful?
I don't know, I don't know thefull situation that they're in.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
Yeah, well, hopefully they can say that to you, right
, like they convey the situationand that's why they have to
text the day before.
Yeah.
To me it'd be a red flag ifthey did, if they don't have
that situation and they did that, and it's like, oh, okay, well,
I think that's I completelyagree.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
However, there are plenty of other dudes on Tinder
that have no problem with therebeing a completely fluid
environment.
Here's the thing.
We're looking for what we fitwith.
We're looking for what's amatch for us.
I'm not going to say what isnot a match for me is wrong or a
red flag.
I'm going to have my opinionsabout it.
(35:30):
But labeling somebody or acertain behavior, classifying it
the reason I don't do it isactually because I don't like
how that further constricts mymind and my heart.
I want to remain open and go.
I don't know what the situationis, but I do know that they're
not showing up in a way that'sconnecting with me.
We're not landing on the dates.
(35:52):
We're not having the dates thatI'm looking for.
I don't need to know why and Idon't need to really assess the
situation further.
It leaves me free to stay in apositive, open place where
there's no like oh, a bunch ofwomen can't even do this or they
can't do that.
There's red flags all over.
I don't want to condition mymind and my heart to think that
(36:13):
way.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
Right.
It's just not going to work forme because of what I'm looking
for.
So that makes sense.
So then, if we stay open likethat, how do you if you can get
yourself into that mindset getyour mind to reframe?
How do you re-invite?
And even the next step maybeyou've already gone on some
(36:39):
dates and you've talked aboutthis and then things are not
quite happening.
How do you go about doing that?
How do you reframe your mindand how do you approach that?
How do you go about doing that?
How do you reframe your mindand how do you approach that?
Speaker 2 (36:49):
So you try to remember and stick to square one
, what it is you're looking forin your picture of what a good,
enjoyable dating relationshiplooks like.
You stick to it on your end andyou represent it Again.
You're like concert starting at7.30.
We're going to have to getmoving here.
(37:09):
I'm looking to see somebody atleast two or three times a week
and I understand stuff comes up.
We're really only seeing eachother once every two weeks.
Here Again, I'm going topresent it.
As for me, I want to be able toconnect with somebody.
I want to see them regularly, Iwant to touch them regularly, I
(37:31):
want them in my life on aregular basis.
I'm presenting all of this as apositive picture.
I'm re-inviting them not justto that event, and then they
canceled all that.
Then, three weeks later, I'mdoing another one.
All all of this turns into thissort of like contract that's
being written up and violatedand, and you know, crossed out
(37:52):
with a red line by a, by alawyer or something, and it's
like no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
That's getting lost in theinteraction and in the details.
I need to keep real clear theattractive image that I want to
experience and continue toinvite her into that experience.
Want to experience and continueto invite her into that
experience.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
And in the process.
Can we hit on that real quick?
Because what came to my mindwas sharing what that is and why
.
That's why that is somethingthat you want.
Like you said, I want toexperience you two or three
times, I want to get to know you.
Experience you two or threetimes, I want to get to know you
(38:31):
.
I want to be able to touch yousee you admire you, spend a
little bit of time, take you outand make you feel pretty.
Take you out, make you feelyeah, yeah, yeah.
So if you're sharing the whybehind what it is, it's less of
a requirement, more of aninvitation, right, but that
includes you needing to knowwhat it is and why you want to
(38:53):
do that.
And also, on the flip side ofthat, it might be that you don't
want to do that and you need tosay, hey, I'm all right with, I
just am looking once a week orwhatever, because you just want
to hook up or just havecompanionship.
Right, maybe the guys are juststarting to date again, and
that's fine too.
(39:14):
But sharing the why behind it,then it feels like makes it an
invitation more than arequirement.
Is that pretty?
Speaker 2 (39:22):
accurate, I would agree.
For me, I'm not even saying whyI want this.
I'm saying what I want and I'magain trying to paint a picture
that they can see, and they willsee attractively, because
they've got some other picturein their mind and I want them to
see what I'm after and I wantthem to see that I am very
(39:44):
attracted to this and that Ivery much enjoy this.
Why I enjoy this?
It's kind of a you know, that'skind of like a deeper question,
like Dallas, why do you enjoy,you know, physical affection so
much?
Well, that's, I don't know,it's going to childhood stuff or
you know, we'll go into whoknows what, you know, into the
why.
What is?
(40:04):
I want to be able to sit andhold your hand at least three
times a week, even if it's just30 minutes.
You're waiting for your kid toget out of school.
I need to be able to sit downand hold your hand because I
want to know that, like I'm, I'mthe guy holding your hand.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
I want to you know.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
I want to be able to, you know, rub your back or
something you know, once a week,because I want you to know the
kind of home life that I want usto move towards.
Why?
Is kind of obvious, I think, ifyou're presenting it as an
attractive picture.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
Yeah, okay, that makes sense.
So that's a little bit nuancedtoo.
So for you, trauma dumpers,don't get into your childhood
trauma and why you need to betouched right, that's going to
be unattractive.
But sharing what it is that youwant not necessarily and maybe
not necessarily a deep whybehind it, but just what it is
(41:00):
that you want, and then they canput the picture together it
makes a lot more sense.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
And they will accept with enthusiasm the invitation
of what you're talking about,and this includes physical touch
, this includes being sexual,this includes going on dates,
this includes different types ofoutings.
You'll extend that invitationwith the thing you like and they
will accept it with enthusiasm.
Those are the best cases.
They will accept it more orless with consent, which isn't a
(41:30):
whole lot of feelings, andthey're just sort of checking it
out to see how things go, orthey'll reject the invitation.
The important thing as a guy isto realize I'm looking for
information about what thiswoman does with my invitations.
I want to be dating women thatare enthusiastically writing yes
(41:51):
, all caps at the bottom of myinvitations so that when I'm
confirming the day beforethey're like yeah, absolutely
Looking forward to seeing youtomorrow.
By the way, just to circle backto that, when I said, is 5.30
still good for you, I amdemonstrating proactively
flexibility by saying that.
I'm saying hey, if you needsome accommodations, if
(42:13):
something is going on, I'm thekind of guy that's okay with
that.
I am not the kind of guy thatsays we said 530.
If you're not there at 530,you're not living up to my
expectations.
That is a huge, huge turnoff towomen.
And again, that slips intocontrolling and that slips into,
well, you know, we agreed tothis and now you're not living
up to the contract.
(42:34):
The book I think it's RobertGlover, I think no More, mr Nice
Guy that the heart of that bookis about social contracts,
agreements, most of which areunwritten, most of which are
unwritten, and us saying I amentitled to this because
somebody agreed to it or becauseI thought society promised it
to me.
(42:54):
What I'm saying is guys, comeback to square one, write an
attractive invitation, extend it, see what she does with it, and
you're looking for women thatenthusiastically say yes to what
you're inviting them toexperience and then you invite
them more and then, hopefully,they accept it more.
(43:15):
Whenever they are not acceptingit, that information to tell
you this might not be a fit forwhat you're looking for.
It's that simple.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
So it's all feedback.
So the invitations arecontinual feedback for you and
if you're not getting theexcitement or participation or
energy whatever it is that youneed through that, then it's
helping you to decide.
Okay, well, this is maybe notsomething that's going to work
(43:47):
out.
This is not the relationship orthis is not the structure of a
relationship that I want.
I wanted to comment, dr Robert,on all of this, and maybe this
helps us put a neat bow on it.
Dr Robert Glover's got a reallygood analogy.
He talks about baking the cake.
(44:07):
Like you're baking this cake ofyour life with these
invitations, and basically theseinvitations are stuff that you
like to do, that you'reinterested in, that you've come
up with Because you've designedyour life, you've curated your
life to know what you want to do, the direction you want, the
family life that you want, etcetera.
(44:28):
So by creating theseinvitations out to them, you've
baked your cake, which is thelifestyle, the environment that
you want, and then you'reinviting her into it and he
describes it as then her as theicing on the cake right, that
she comes alongside you, as theicing on the cake in this
(44:51):
environment that you've created.
That's not diminishing a woman,it just means that you're
taking a leadership role, you'reasserting your masculine nature
, which is leading leading therelationship, leading your life,
creating an environment forthem.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
Yeah, again, I feel like that's a little bit of a
slippery slope to say that weare the cake and they're the
frosting.
To me it's a little slipperyand we're leading the
relationship or we're leadingthe experience.
I'm inviting someone to arelationship, I'm inviting them
to an experience, and the way Ilook at it is I'm writing the
(45:27):
invitation, so I am authoring itfrom scratch.
I'm the author.
When I slide it across thetable, you know what's going to
happen like more than half thetime.
She's going to edit thatinvitation, so I'm authoring it,
but she's changing it, she'sediting it, and that is the
contribution.
And it's not a fair division oflabor, because anybody knows
(45:52):
this.
Writing something from scratchtakes more effort.
You have to come up with justfrom nothing.
You have to come up with thesecreative ideas, slide them
across the table and she'll belike yeah, I don't know about
that.
How about we do this?
And and one of the things wehave to look for is what kind of
an editor is she?
Is she respectful of the effortthat we put out?
(46:14):
Is she collaborating, is shelooking towards something shared
, or is she being a bit of aprincess?
Is she collaborating, is shelooking towards something shared
, or is she being a bit of aprincess?
Is she being selfish?
Is she just and again, like yousaid, that's the information
that we're constantly gatheringin the dating process to see if
they're the right fit, right,but I would posit that the
feedback and how you handle itand her editing process is
(46:37):
effective leadership.
Speaker 1 (46:39):
So if you're just pissed and you're like, oh, then
that's obviously not strongleadership, that's you being
butthurt and having an ego.
But if you are a healthy leaderand you do take that, a healthy
leader is going to takefeedback and then we can take it
to the next step.
When you're leading your familyand your relationship, then
(47:00):
you're taking feedback all ofthe time as a leader and you're
making adjustments and you haveto do that.
So, so I, so so I, I still, Istill view it as you leading the
relationship and I feel likeyou are that us as men and
especially as as dads, becausethen if, depending on what you
want with a relationshiphopefully it's a healthy
(47:21):
romantic relationship then thatyour kids are watching you have
with this person, then they arewatching you be a healthy,
effective leader then with thisperson.
So I still, I still, I stillcall it leadership.
I think it's important that youare, that you are leading.
I know that's a loaded wordthese days and women don't want
(47:42):
to be led or they don't want tobe submissive, and and, and and
men to some extent, haveabdicated that, uh, that
responsibility, a whole lot, andthen it gets back, but that's a
whole nother podcast episode,right, that, uh, that we can get
into.
But maybe we just wrap it upthen with the idea of leadership
(48:07):
being getting feedback andhaving to then make adjustments
around that and understandingthat there's a difference in the
dynamics and how they're comingfrom.
Oh, another thing I wanted tosay is part of that baking the
cake, I feel in the context of adivorced dad, is you have to,
(48:31):
because you've got the familyalready.
So part of this is you do haveto invite somebody in to some
extent, that they're going tohave to buy into your
environment and the yeah and thelife that you have you have
created, because if they becausesome of it is just
automatically, is automaticallyset, you can't, you can't change
(48:52):
it.
You can't change it.
You have, however, many kids.
Hopefully you're not going toadvocate that responsibility and
that duty right to which somepeople, some, some men, do right
, find the other one, leave thefamily, which is messed up, and
we don't need to go down thatone.
But so some of it is that youare creating that, and that goes
to what we talked about lastweek, which is really knowing
(49:12):
what it is that you want, andcreating that environment, et
cetera.
So maybe we'll just wrap it uparound that.
Speaker 2 (49:18):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I completely agree witheverything you said.
And again, the word leadershipit's a broad term.
My particular way is make sureyou're exercising
self-leadership that's thepicture you have of yourself and
then you're extending aninvitation for someone else to
experience that leadership aspart of their experience as well
.
Yeah, certain parts of being adad, it's a package deal.
(49:39):
The kids are there.
This isn't going to change.
This is simply part of theelements that are coming into it
and you do want to have reallystrong boundaries in those areas
.
Extending an invitation is fora particular part of the life
and there are certain parametersthat can change.
But, to your point, there's awhole lot that doesn't.
Yeah, there's a whole episodewaiting right here on that
(50:01):
leadership component.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
Yeah, and I want to make the point too is this may
be uncomfortable.
So if you are a codependent, wetalked about the no more Mr
Dice guy.
Really, it's a repackaging ofcodependency and talking about
how to not be a codependent guywithin the context of
relationships in your life butthis might be uncomfortable for
you and it's going to be achallenge and a work in progress
(50:27):
for you to have to deal withthat discomfort around this and
going back, wrapping it backaround to the Joe Jonas and
Sophie Turner thing, wrapping itback around to the Joe Jonas
and Sophie Turner thing therewas probably not this dynamic.
That was a healthy dynamic.
Otherwise she wouldn't havejust taken off unilaterally and
(50:50):
done her own thing.
I think that we see thatprobably in a lot of our
relationships, so some of thismight be a mirror for you guys.
Right, if you're not gettingthe feedback, and that's not a
bad thing either this is allfeedback there for you guys,
right, if you're not getting thefeedback, and that's not a bad
thing either, this is allfeedback.
There's no failure, right?
There's no failure.
She says no on a to a date.
There's no failure if itdoesn't go how you want it to.
It's all feedback, so some ofthis might be a mirror that's
(51:12):
feedback-like, and I know thatthis was the case for me.
Speaker 2 (51:20):
I was like, oh man, like I got a lot of work to do,
but that's okay, yeah, and thereis.
There is to your point.
There is so much discomfort inbehaving differently in this way
.
But I can tell you, becauseI've I've gone through the
process myself, the amount offresh air and breathing room
that you get on the oppositeside, not being tethered and
attached to the outcome and toanother person, having to be
(51:44):
happy by what I am or I'm notdoing, it is so worth the
discomfort, it is really worthit, Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (51:50):
And that's like a whole other episode too, which
is don't be tied to outcomes.
Right, that is a tremendous one, but let's leave that as a hook
for a future one.
Not being tied to, becausethat's a tough one, but the
freedom, like you said, and I'lljust reiterate, is just
tremendous in your life.
On that, Awesome.
Well, that was really reallygood, Dallas, those that are
(52:15):
listening how can they get intouch with you to get some more
of your pearls of wisdom?
Speaker 2 (52:20):
Thanks, jude.
Yeah, find me on YouTube.
That's the best way to get longform material.
If you're interested in knowingabout my group and private
coaching and events that I'm ataround town, check out
blackboxdatingcom.
And, jude, thanks again forhaving me on.
It is so fun being your co-hoston Dad's Dating After Divorce.
I just love digging into stuffwith you.
You bring so much interestingquestions you know to the table.
Speaker 1 (52:44):
Thanks, my friend and and and I appreciate your
ability to, to, to cut throughsome of this, some of this stuff
.
And you know we've been, wejust revamped and doing this to,
like last week, this week.
You've just got stuff spinningin my head now Like I'm thinking
about all this.
I'm like man, he said this andhe said that, and like every
week that I'm thinking, oh, man,so so thank you, I appreciate
(53:08):
it.
Dads that are listening thatwant some more support around,
wherever you're at in yourdivorce, even if it's
post-divorce check outthedivorcedadvocatecom.
We've got all kinds ofresources there for you to check
out as well.
So, Dallas, have a terrificweek and we'll talk to everybody
soon.
Thanks you too.
Bye.
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