19 - Checklists are Sexy: Lead Her with Clarity, One Step at a Time

New relationships don’t need a contract; they need direction. We dig into the messy, exciting space after a few dates where interest is real, logistics are heavy, and you’re wondering how to move from casual to committed without killing the spark. As divorced dads, we know the stakes are higher—kids, calendars, and hard-won lessons—so we break down a practical way to lead with clarity while keeping things warm and inviting.

We start by flipping the usual script: before negotiating with someone else, navigate yourself. How attracted are you, how much do you enjoy her, and what role could she play in your future? Once you have those answers, identify the next most important step for you—exclusive dating, an overnight, more weekly time—and present it as an invitation, not a request. That single shift keeps the romance alive, adds mystery, and shows discipline. We also tackle the noisy world of dating tactics and explain why principles beat hacks: clarify, invite, observe, refine. Your desires are valid; if they’re met with consistent no’s, it’s feedback to evaluate fit, not a cue to push harder.

We dive into listening as a masculine advantage. When she processes out loud, resist fixing. Stay present, invite more, then reflect back small, accurate pieces of clarity so she can see herself more clearly. This builds trust, lowers pressure, and gives you better data to guide the pace. Along the way we share language for making linear feel romantic, how to protect your frame without turning rigid, and why carrying the “full checklist” privately while offering one step at a time is both effective and attractive.

If you’re a dad reentering dating, this conversation is your roadmap to leading with steadiness, handling timelines without games, and building a connection that can actually fit your life. Subscribe, share with a friend who needs it, and leave a review with the next “step” you’re planning to invite—what’s on your list?

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:19):
Hello and welcome to Dad's Dating After Divorce, the
show where we get real aboutlove, about fatherhood, and
finding your footing, gettingback into the dating world.
My name is Jude Sandval.
I'm the founder of The DivorcedDadvocate, and my co-host, as
always, Dallas Bluth, thefounder of Black Box Dating.

(00:39):
How are you doing, Dallas?
Doing awesome, Jude.
How's your morning going?
The morning is going well forsure.
Like I said, we have notechnical challenges starting
here so far, so we'll knock onwood with that and be very
excited to get through a fullepisode with no technical
glitches or in anything.

(01:00):
So it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01):
Let's just hope the Amazon servers stay up and
running.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03):
I was just gonna say that's after this whole Amazon
thing.
And I know you're an IT guy, soyou probably have a little more
just are a little more relaxedabout it than maybe those of us
who are like dependent upon ohmy god, my tech is down, what do
I do?
So anyway.
First world problems, right?
Let's see.

(01:24):
We are going to be talking todayabout navigating the beginning
of a relationship.
Kind of we'll we'll set thestage.

(01:47):
Then you know it.
We've got a lot more variablesgoing into uh into this now.
We've also got a lot moreexperience going into uh into
things now.
So so when we are younger, itseems like there's not real it

(02:08):
there doesn't seem to be atimeline, if you will, of well,
what is the process?
How do we get into it?
It do we need to do we reallyneed to talk to this?
It seems it seems almost to be alittle bit more carefree, if
you, if you will.
I hesitate to say smootherbecause it might have felt

(02:32):
smoother because it wascarefree, and you it really did
like there wasn't as much on theline, and you didn't have as
many responsibilities and haveto negotiate so many different
things.
So so it it it I guess maybepotentially it was a little bit
more more carefree and and andeasier.
So so I so now what I want totalk about is in the in the

(02:55):
beginning of negotiating that.
First, what is a what is atimeline for going through this
process?
You see somebody, you've maybetalked to them a little bit,
been out on some dates withthem, and you're thinking, okay,
well, maybe I'm taking this tothe next level, maybe I'm not.

(03:18):
How do we start to negotiatethat?
Feel like we're not rushingthings too much, or that we're
not going too slow.
Like it seems very, very tricky.

SPEAKER_02 (03:28):
Yeah.
It is really tricky because itnever really plays out the same
way twice.
Two people come to the table,they're gonna have different
interest levels, they're gonnahave different requirements,
they're gonna have differentlevels of care freeness
depending on whether or not theyhave children, whether or not
they've been married before, youknow, how much they've been just
sort of like, you know, schoolof hard knocks, you know, in the

(03:49):
dating scene.
People are going to have verydifferent agendas and you know,
criteria before they becomecommitted and involved with
somebody.
So I think the first thing wehave to look at is before we
look at engaging with the otherperson, before we look at a
commitment with another person,we need to get really good at

(04:11):
being honest with ourselves ofhow interested we are in this
other woman.
Whether she's dating other menor not, whether we're dating
other women or not, is is kindof they're separate issues and
they're beside the point.
The first question we have toask is am I interested in
getting into a committedrelationship?
I'm just assuming when we saybeginning a relationship, we're

(04:33):
talking about a committedrelationship.
We're not seeing other people.
Um I assume that's ourdefinition of this term.

SPEAKER_00 (04:39):
Yeah, yeah.
So I'm I'm talking about thatthat period between you first
met, you've been on some dates,you are have some interest, and
now you're kind of negotiatingthat path of moving it to the
next level, to where you want tohave a committed relationship.

SPEAKER_02 (04:55):
So I don't I don't focus too much on negotiating
with the other person.
I focus mainly on gettingclarity with myself.
And this is what I talk with myclients about.
How interested are you in thiswoman?
How attracted, how physicallyattracted are you to this woman?
How much do you enjoy thiswoman's company?
How much do you want this womaninvolved in your potential

(05:19):
future?
You know, well, you're going tohave a future in your life, how
much do you potentially wantthis woman involved in that
future?
And those are questions that Ifeel that a man needs to decide
for himself on his own.
If we're talking with a womanand negotiating with her at the
same time as trying to figureout our own interest level, we
sort of co-mingle theirinterests and our interests.

(05:42):
And that gets to be very kind ofmuddy.
There's sort of a lot of pushand pull that goes into it.
I should be able to say formyself, I'm really into this
woman.
I would definitely like this togo somewhere with her.
And be able to say that withclarity for myself and with
complete separation from her andsay, I don't know if she's
interested in going there withme yet.

(06:03):
But the fact that I have clarityon my end, that provides
actually a lot of power and insome senses, negotiating clarity
in interacting with her.
I'm just curious, how does that,how does that resonate with you?

SPEAKER_00 (06:15):
Yeah, well, so when I say negotiating this process,
it doesn't necessarily mean likea new like you're negotiating
with somebody to like, okay,well, here's the terms of what
we're what we're doing.
Although that's gonna be mythat's did I that is actually my
next my next topic.

SPEAKER_02 (06:33):
My being too naive and uh and taking you too
literally here on the wordnegotiation.

SPEAKER_00 (06:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You're taking me literally likeI'm negotiating with like we're
gonna come with a contract andand all that.
I mean negotiating this process.
And and I I like what you said,which is like the first
negotiate, the first part thatyou're negotiating through is
how you feel about her.
And is this somebody that youthat you see spending time with?

(06:59):
Is this somebody that you like?
How attracted are you?
Are you enjoying like all ofthat stuff?
Being real and honest with withyour yourself about that.
Or, or because this is whathappens, especially maybe if
we're just a dad getting backinto it and and starting again,
is that we're we're trying tofill a void, maybe, right?

(07:22):
And we're not being real honestwith ourselves about oh, okay.
Uh, and we've talked in pastepisodes about doing the work
before we even get to this pointas to knowing what you want and
where you're at, and it's okaywherever that is.
Maybe you just want somebody toto have a recreational
relationship with that is justjust not committed.

(07:44):
And that's fine too, but justknow going in that that is what
you want.
So then the next thing we'regonna talk about that that I
have on the on my list, but ishaving that talk, right?
Like not the not the notnecessarily the the what are we
talking, but more of the how arewe going to do this talk.

(08:07):
I I feel because as as a dad andas a single dad, and maybe she
has kids, or that there are alot more val variables that that
go into it.
So it's kind of having that thatthat talk, which you know, I've
I I have had my personally mixedreactions uh around this.

(08:30):
And I've done it both ways whereI haven't really been clear and
had the the talk of how we'regonna negotiate this and kind of
just let things flow, if youwill, like uh we're talking
about in the beginning of justkind of carefree and see how
this happens.
And I've done it the other waywhere I've been very, very
intentional and clear and talkedlike wanted to talk about this

(08:53):
and and maybe maybe to themaybe, just maybe, to the extent
where it was like a negotiation,we're talking about a contract,
right?
Which I can understand where itbecomes a complete turnoff,
right?
So, so how do you how do youmitigate having this this how do
we go about doing this talk?

(09:13):
Still make it exciting and sexyand not a total turn-off of
logistics and we gotta do this,because there is just some of
that that's built in that yougotta figure out.

SPEAKER_02 (09:26):
Yeah, absolutely.
And it's and it is really,really tricky to do.
So I'm gonna say, I'm I'm forfor the sake of clarifying
terms, I'm not gonna say thatI'm negotiating with myself.
I'm gonna say that I'm trying tonavigate myself.
So I'm trying to get clarity onmy path, and I'm trying to, I'm
trying to figure out where itis, what I'm feeling with this
woman, where I want to go, whatam I ready for.

(09:48):
I'm trying to get clarity withmyself.
We'll call that navigatingmyself is getting clarity with
myself.
When now, when it comes totalking with the woman about how
we're going to become involved,I think the first thing that
helps a lot is we is that wetell them where we're coming
from on our end.

(10:08):
When we bring that clarity of,look, I'm really interested in
you.
I I like you a lot.
I would like to just be seeingyou.
And the minute you say that,you're providing a lot of
clarity and the and starting theconversations, because these
will be plural over time,starting the conversations out
with that type of reassurancefor her of where you're coming

(10:30):
from in your heart and in yourmind.
That's going to change theentire tone of the conversation.
You're essentially providingher.
Yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 (10:39):
Yeah.
And can I stop you there realquick?
Because that seems to be also aspot where that's different for
different people.
So talking about theexpectations is that three
dates?
Is that three months?
When do you feel feelcomfortable?
And how do you have thatconfidence?

(11:00):
Because they're going to havejust a built-in expectation,
right?
A woman's and and every woman'sbuilt-in expectation is going to
be different.
And you may or may not, you haveyour own idea of how that, how,
how that looks, what thatprocess might hopefully you do,
right?
When you say you're navigatingyourself, you kind of have an
idea that it's going to be athis period of time, maybe this

(11:21):
may, however, you're going todetermine it.
And then I'm either going tostart feeling comfortable.
I do feel comfortable and movetowards that.
How do you how do you have thatconversation when you're when
you're going through that,especially if you you start to
feel like, oh, maybe she'spushing it a little too too fast
and and you want to pull back,or maybe you're pushing it too

(11:43):
fast and she's not reacting howhow you how you would would like
it, would expect, or would youlike to her to react.
Or you're not getting you're notgetting the reaction that you
want, right?
That's what it comes down to.

SPEAKER_02 (11:57):
Okay.
There's a lot there.
So the as far as a timeline goesgoing into it, uh, you might
have the way that you normallygo about it, but the the
question is, what's your what'sthe state of you inside of
yourself?
How ready are you or not?
Because that timeline willquickly shift depending on how
interested or not interested youare in a woman.

(12:18):
And I think the thing to presentto her is not, I like to take
this slow, I like to, well, isnot to necessarily have a plan
of action that you're used tothat you're rolling out.
That that feels like, okay, I'veyou've got your way of doing it,
and she has her way of doing it,and you're trying to kind of
mesh these two plans together.

(12:39):
I like to bring to it, here'swhat I'm feeling, here's my
level of readiness.
And and that's that that's thestate that I'm in.
And that isn't a plan.
That's just the facts of where Iam today.
Now, if the woman is ahead of meand she, you know, she's ready
for a commitment and I'm not,I'm stating those facts.
I'm stating where it is.
Yes, I'm interested in you, butI'm not quite ready to be

(13:01):
committed.
And then let the chips fallwhere they may as a result of
you sharing that with her.
Because if it's been threemonths and she's way into you
and you're not quite sure yet,she might she might say, All
right, I'm I'm out.
That's not gonna work.
That doesn't mean that we changethe the challenge of navigating
ourselves to the point ofclarity in ourselves

(13:22):
individually, and then sharingthat clarity with her.
The same thing goes.
Let's say I'm ready to beexclusive with her after two
months or three months, and Idon't necessarily feel like
she's all that in it.
I don't want to keep giving hermy time, my attention, my
creativity in coming up withdates, you know, my energetic
involvement and you know, myemotional, what would you say,

(13:45):
my emotional stake in this, if Idon't feel like it's being
reciprocated.
I, you know, the the populardating advice out there is the
man never brings up acommitment.
You always wait for the woman todo it.
Yeah, I I can hear that.
If you're coming from a needyplace of attachment, if you're
bringing it up within like, youknow, a week or two and you've

(14:05):
only had a couple of dates,guys, you know, that that's
still, you know, that's whatwhat is that?
That's like the that's thelighter fluid on the charcoal
that's on fire, you know, whenthat's happening in those first
couple of weeks.
It's not the coals that areactually on fire.
When you can tell that the coalsare actually on fire and and
you're ready and you feel likeshe's still kind of maybe in,

(14:26):
maybe not, ask yourself how muchdo you want to keep, how much,
how much of your resources, yourtime, your energy, your
creativity, and your and youremotional bandwidth, how much do
you want to keep spending in inthis scaffolding of the early
stages of the relationship tofind out whether or not she's
going to meet you in the middle.
The bottom line is you know inyour own heart when you're

(14:48):
ready, and you know in your ownheart when you're not ready.
Getting to that point can bemore difficult than a lot of
guys realize.
And then being truthful about itand transparent with the woman,
that can be especiallychallenging for certain guys.

SPEAKER_00 (15:01):
Yeah.
And I agree with you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I hope I wholeheartedly agreewith you about the the not
bringing up the status or thethe relationship status or where
where are we at thing?
Because as as the the man in therelationship, I feel like we
really it's incumbent upon us tolead and have a create a

(15:25):
direction.
Now that's that's collaborativeas you get into it and it takes
communication, but I feel likewe should be defining that.
And like like you said, so if ifthey bring it up, then what you
just just described is have thatconversation about okay, well,
this is how I'm feeling, this iswhere I'm at.

(15:45):
And then maybe, like you said,depending on how you feel about
that person, maybe that maybe itspeeds up.
Maybe you're what you're used tospeeds up, which which takes me
into kind of our our next thing,which is these old patterns,
right?
That that that come up versuslike new rules.
And and you pointed out a rulewhich is well, you're not

(16:08):
supposed to to bring up therelationship thing, et cetera.
Like when I was 22, I didn't Ididn't know any of that, right?
And so there's you know, there'sthere's these all all these new
rules that we hear.
And if you listen to to so muchso much of the stuff on the
internet now that's the you youcould just absolutely get lost
in all these, I gotta be doingthis, I can't respond then, and

(16:30):
do that.
Like, it's just in insane.
But go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 (16:35):
So those are tactics, and you know, every
tactic has its place, and everytactic has several places you
should not use it.
And TikTok has reduced the worldinto a bunch of life hacks,
which are just tactics.
That's not strategy, that's notthat's not going to take you
anywhere very far.
You have to have a morefundamental basis than that.

(16:55):
So it gets very disorienting,and and and all of them are bad
advice at a certain moment.
They they all are.
You have to find out what theguiding principle is below.
Let me let me tell you what Ithink is a good approach and
strategy to this.
Is you mentioned sort of havinga discussion with a woman,
laying out what it's going tolook like.

(17:16):
I find that it's more effectiveif we realize that that is, and
I'm I'm sure you agree withthis, it's an ongoing
discussion.
It begins on even potentiallydate one or two of what we're
looking for, but we're justsharing little pieces of it.
And then at a certain point, wetalk about well, I'd love to
spend the night together.

(17:36):
And the reason you're bringingup this way is because we're not
in the early 20s carefree dayswhen she's right down the
hallway in the dorm, you know,and you're you're hiding under
the covers with three otherpeople in the room.
You know, it's it's just notlike that anymore.
And suddenly, you know,babysitters are involved, and
when kids are around, and youhave to you have to like
schedule this thing, put it onthe calendar.

(17:58):
Well, bringing up the fact thatyou're ready for that, that's
that's just a step into therelationship.
And I think the best strategy togo about this when there's so
many logistics in a single dad'slife and he's out there dating,
it's to recognize what is thenext most important piece to
fall into place with this woman.

(18:19):
Is it that we're not seeinganyone else?
Is it that we we, you know,maybe we've slept together, but
we haven't spent the nighttogether.
And for me, I'm realizingspending the night together with
this woman will take us to adifferent place.
You know, you know, um she'sinvited me to, you know, have

(18:39):
have a play date with herdaughter or her son or, you
know, whatever it is.
And and I'm, you know, and howam I feeling about that?
I feel that all of these areindividual steps, and they're
not, we don't have to come upwith them all at once.
It's it's not like some big Dr.
Frankenstein switch that we likego from off to on and the
lightning bolt comes into theroom and suddenly it's a

(19:02):
relationship.
Ha ha, you know, it's alive.
Like, no.
Like these are steps that we'retaking forward.
And I think if we find, andagain, this is navigating your
own emotional landscape inside.
If I can find the next importantthing to me in myself, and then
when I feel like it's importantto share that, I'm stepping into

(19:24):
the relationship rather than anearly 20-year-old making a bunch
of assumptions and jumping allthe way in in a carefree way,
thinking it's all just gonnawork out.

SPEAKER_00 (19:33):
Right.
Well, and so when you say, asusual, Dallas, it sounds so easy
and so small like so smooth,like, oh yeah, what's the next
thing?
And then, you know, I'm justpicturing you and it just rolls
off your tongue, and then itjust you know happens
beautifully.
But for you know, us novices andones that aren't as as as good

(19:54):
as you in talking about that,what is that how does that how
does that sound when in and notmake it sound like un unromantic
or or because it because here'sthe other thing is so guy as a
guy, as as guys, we're reallykind of like linear.
Okay, so it's a so in my mindthis is becoming a checklist,

(20:17):
right?
So you're talking and you'retalking very smoothly, and how
it how it becomes becomes very,but I'm reorganizing it in my
head as a checklist.
And I know a lot of guys uh areare doing that.
How do I come off as not itbeing a checklist when I talk
about, oh, okay, well, we'regonna be communicating by tax
more often, and then maybe wecan um spend more than one day a

(20:41):
week together, and then maybethen we can we can have a a date
where we go out of town.
Like, like how do I how doeslike come off not sounding like
that?
Okay, make it more romantic.

SPEAKER_02 (20:52):
Okay, so let's dispel a myth here, real quick.
Linear is romantic.
Linear is sexy.
It is, it is okay, and okay, solet me let me further clarify.
Linear is sexy and romantic towomen when done the right way.
Okay, and check click andchecklists are really good.
That's part of being linear,it's part of being organized,

(21:14):
it's part of having a plan, it'spart of being able to lead.
That's a good thing.
What is not sexy is giving thewoman the full checklist.
What is tech what is sexy is togive her your next check box and
then you hold inside of yourselfthe full checklist.
That creates mystery, thatcreates anticipation.

(21:35):
You're taking on the burden ofthe responsibility of keeping
all this in order, and she andthen you're just presenting to
her, so would you like to go outof town for the first time?
You know, how can we make thishappen with my kids and your
kids?
You know, how how do we do this?
And you're presenting onecheckbox.
And the thing is, it's the nextmost important item on your list

(21:57):
for you as a man.
You're presenting to her thatgift of the next most important
thing, and you're carrying inyour own masculine linear
responsibility, you're carryingthe rest of that list in your
backpack.
She doesn't need to worry aboutit.
She doesn't need to see it.
So that's that's one element.
And and just to finish off thatthought, carrying that list

(22:21):
inside of you takes discipline.
It takes effort.
That is a burden for us to have.
That discipline of carrying itand keeping it to yourself and
only giving her essentially likethe next rows on the list, you
know, the next item that's agift, and you carrying the rest
yourself takes work and effort.
That is what that is what's sexyabout it to a woman.

(22:45):
Whenever a man exercisesdiscipline, that is where he
builds his masculinity.
I what I say to my clients ismasculinity, masculinity is
forged in discipline.
Whenever you're having to holdand retain this long list and
have this plan for the future,but you're not sharing the whole

(23:05):
thing with her, you're justsharing with her a part of it,
that takes work and discipline,and that's going to turn her on.

SPEAKER_00 (23:11):
Yeah.
And so I I lost my thought.

SPEAKER_02 (23:16):
Well, I want to answer the second part of your
question if I can.

SPEAKER_00 (23:19):
Yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 (23:20):
Yep.
Okay.
So the second part is how do youdo this in conversation and you
know, and make it sound sexy.
So, first of all, breakingbreaking the list down into
individual items and presentingthem one at a time, that's going
to be much more sexy.
You know, it's it's the little,you know, a woman would say it's
the little things that count.
Giving them one item on thelist, that's a little thing,
even if it is substantial,because it's not the whole

(23:42):
package.
Now, the the the way that I liketo approach this with a woman,
because every woman that youmeet is coming from a very
different history.
And particularly, if I'm comingto this as a single dad and I
have a history that didn't gowell in the first attempt, I
want to do this differently.
When I when I tell that to awoman and I said, Look, I don't

(24:06):
entirely know what this lookslike with you, but we get to do
this however we want.
We get to write our own gameplan, we get to write our own
rule book, and I want to writeone with you from scratch.
That is music to a woman's ear.

SPEAKER_00 (24:24):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's really good.

SPEAKER_02 (24:27):
And because and that is honestly the truth.
And and because the two of youdon't have to follow any rules
that, you know, anything fromour parents to TikTok has told
us these are rules you'resupposed to follow.
If you want to get married, goshdarn it, you're gonna get
married in a whole different waythan you did the first time.
And it's gonna be according toyour rules.

(24:49):
And if she's been marriedbefore, she doesn't want to get
married the way she did.
And when you tell her, I want tobuild something from scratch, I
want to, I want to make our ownrules up from the ground up on
how we want this to be.
How do we want it to be incohabitation?
How do we want it to be ininvolving kids?
How do we want it to be in thebedroom?
How do we want it to be in ourcommunication style?

(25:11):
How do we want to be with ourfinances?
What whatever the stress pointsare for both of you, telling
telling that woman that I wantto live by our own custom-built
rule book from the ground up,how does that sound to you?
That's a very romantic way toapproach the topic.

SPEAKER_00 (25:31):
Right.
And it's a call to adventure,which is something that is
attractive to both men andwomen, right?
That's probably one of the mainthings that that we share is
just human beings as a is adesire and a call to to
adventure.
Women want to be an adventure,men are always that's just their
their their thing.
And then I remember the theother thing I was that that I

(25:53):
forgot was that add somemystery.
Not only the adventure part ofdesigning that, but by not
revealing that entire checklistand allowing it to come a little
bit of time.
There, that mystery then keepssome attention and sexiness, and
and if you can do it right, thenyou know you you get through the

(26:17):
checklist, which is what youwhat you what you're wanting,
right?
Or or hoping, desiring, let'ssay that's a better word.
Desiring, but you're able to doit in a in a way, in a sense
that you're bringing her along,you're creating mystery,
building foundation, like you,you're like you're talking so so
I just every time you talk aboutstuff, like I keep translating.

(26:39):
So that the next thing whenyou're talking about that, which
is which was uh the sense ofadventure, and we can do it this
way.
I'm thinking about building ahouse, right?
So like I'm automatically going,well, you're building a
foundation, and then you'reframing it, and then you're
you're doing all the the therest of it, but it could be but
you know, so again, that thatlinear mindset is what I'm

(27:02):
hearing you say is take thelinear mindset.
It's okay to be linear, it'sactually a good thing because
the result for her is that sheshe she knows whether it's
consciously or subconsciouslythat you're disciplined, that
you're you're taking steps, thatyou're thinking through that
stuff, but and and and thatyou've got it in control, but

(27:28):
you're doing it in a way that isis inviting her, bringing her
alongside of you with it,calling her in into to doing it
and co-collaborating it.
So you're kind of doing thisadventure of building all this
house with all of that in a in acreative and a in a dynamic and

(27:48):
a in a different way that isattractive for her, right?
Because for you and I, it mightbe cool, let's just get the tool
belts and let's go hammer,right?
But for her, it's a lot, a lotdifferent of how you're you're
you're you know, and therelationship obviously is the
house, right?
You're building that, right?
So that's the the analogy.
So it's it's different.

(28:09):
I'll tell you, Dallas, it's it'sit's a little bit hard for me
and I'm I think maybe some ofthe other guys to like to have
to do that translation.
And I think we delved into thisa little bit last week, right?
Is to do that translating init's almost like you're
translating what your checklistand you're building the house

(28:29):
and find it, and then you haveto like put it in a language of
how you're and and then youcan't mansplain it to her
because then it comes off wrong,right?
Like you gotta do it in a way,so then it's like, holy shit,
I'm exhausted.

SPEAKER_02 (28:45):
Yeah, it it is exhausting, and if we look at it
as translating, we're stilllooking at it from our point of
view.
I have this thing that I want tocommunicate.
How do I translate this so it'llcommunicate over?
Instead, if we look at Well, wedon't speak their language.
Well, how do we do it adifferent way?
Okay, that's true that we don'tspeak their language, but we can

(29:08):
if if we pause and actually careabout the woman, we can look and
see the effect of it on them.
So if, you know, and we don'tyou can do this in person, but
really I think when you have agood enough imagination and you
and you can pull yourself out ofyour first person point of view,
and you can say, How is thisgoing woman going to feel if I

(29:31):
bring this checklist of likefive or eight things that I
think are really important forthis relationship?
Is she going to feel like she'shaving a fun adventure, or is
she going to feel kind ofweighed down and turned off?
I think most guys, when we stepback and ask which one would,
you know, what would which waywould she react?
Most guys are going to be ableto identify, yeah, that's going

(29:53):
to turn her off.
That's going to weigh her down.
This so this is just a matternot of me translating what I'm
saying.
It's me pausing before I takeaction and asking myself, what
is the effect of what I'm doinggoing to have on the woman?
And and I know that by the waythat she responds to what I'm
doing.
This is this is all about thisis all about the experience I

(30:15):
give the woman and how does sherespond as a result.
So When I look at my checklistand I think, well, if I just
give her the next most importantitem on the list for me and I
share that with her, she's gonnalike that because she's gonna
feel Dallas is invested, Dallasis interested, you know, he he's
got some skin in the game, he'staking this somewhere and he's
he's going somewhere with it.

(30:36):
She's going to enjoy that.
And she knows that there's moregoing on inside of my head
because as a woman, she has 10times more things going on in
her head, you know, than than wedo as guys going on in our head.
Um the other thing I want topoint out.
One more thing I want to pointout.
When we bring one item from thechecklist to the table, that is

(31:01):
that doesn't fill up the wholeplate.
That is putting, you know, onescoop of mashed potatoes on the
plate.
There's plenty of room on thatplate for her to put her items
on the t on that plate as well.
If we put four, five, six itemson the plate, there's no more
room for her to put anything on.
I mean, she she can try, butthen we've got way too much to

(31:24):
process at once.
I've shared the most importantthing with her.
And the next most importantthing is to say thank you.
I'm glad that sounds good toyou.
You told me you're not readyyet, or you told me you've been
wishing for the same thing.
Whatever her response is,doesn't matter.
And then we say, what's mostimportant to you?
What where would you like totake this next?

(31:45):
What's the next thing you'vebeen hoping to do that we
haven't done yet?
What's the next, what, what'sthe next, what's the next step
forward on this adventure?
I I think the analogy ofbuilding a house together is
great.
As guys, we're thereconstructing it all the time.
We've got the tool belt on, andwe know we need to go take off
the tool belt, get in the car,go pick her up, bring her to the

(32:07):
job site, and go, you know what?
I wasn't sure if you wanted baywindows in the living room or a
sliding glass door.
Which one you and you take herto that one particular crucial
moment where you've preparedeverything.
That's the discipline, that'sthe work, and you're like, which
way would you like to go withthis?
And you just bring her, youknow, not in work clothes to

(32:28):
work on the dang house with you.
You bring her to the job sitewhen there's a critical decision
to be made.
And she gets to feel involved inthe process, but it's an
enjoyable one.
You know, you're driving by thesite rather than having to be
there every day watching thecrew do the work.

SPEAKER_00 (32:45):
Yeah.
So maybe it's it's less of Ifeel like it's translating in my
mind, right?
Like not translating to her whatI'm what I'm thinking or what
I'm feeling, translating in mymind, like what you just
described, in in having to stop.
And and so maybe translating isnot the the best description of

(33:06):
it, but having to tune into whatthe experience is, because my
experience is totally different.
So where I'm coming from and myis totally different.
So tuning into what that whather experience potentially will
be, and then working from a froma standpoint of of that to where

(33:28):
that it's gonna then everythingthat you just said, it's going
to attract her in that it'sgonna make her uh bring her into
the adventures, it's gonna beenjoyable, like it's gonna be,
it's gonna elicit the feelingsthat you want her to have in in
going about this and having itjust be layered one one step at

(33:48):
a time.

SPEAKER_02 (33:49):
Yeah, so what what you're doing there, maybe a way
of looking at it, is you'rerepackaging your delivery.

SPEAKER_01 (33:57):
Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 (33:59):
But but rather than just shooting it out, you know,
like automatically, you know,slap a slap a mail label on it
and send it out the door.
You're pausing, you're askingyourself, what would be the most
effective delivery?
How should I package this?
You know, what cadence, whatpacing should I do with?
And most importantly, what's themost important thing here for me

(34:22):
to communicate?
Don't try to communicateeverything.
Communicate the most importantthing to you because honestly,
as a caring woman, the mostimportant thing to you is going
to be part of the most importantthings to her.
So yeah, think about think aboutpausing and repackaging your
delivery of your checklist.

SPEAKER_00 (34:41):
Yeah, yeah.
That's yeah, that so thatdescribes it much better than
than trend the translatorshappening for us, and then we're
taking the time to to to toapproach it in the right manner
because because the way Iapproach like you would be
completely different.
It would just be Dallas, go pickup the two by fours, let's get
them, we got this to do, and andlike that's it, right?

(35:03):
And that's not gonna work for awoman.

SPEAKER_02 (35:07):
And the reason is I respond to that positively.
I respond in a way that I enjoy,and I respond in a way that you
enjoy.
Giving those same instructionsto a woman, a woman, women tend
to respond differently.
And what we're really after isthe favorable response.
We want the woman smiling.
We want the woman saying yes toour invitations, we want the

(35:29):
woman stepping into theadventure that we want to lead
them on.
So it's it's really a matter ofrealizing that men and women
respond differently to differentforms of delivery.
And as men, we we have to makean effort to become aware of
what women respond to and thendeliver things in a way so that

(35:50):
we get the response that wewant.
And it takes it takes an extrastep, an extra translation in
our mind to think, oh, well, howwill they respond to it?
But once, but once you startobserving it and you start
seeing it, it's wonderful.
I mean, it's you know, to see awoman respond in the ways that
we always wanted them to and torealize I don't have to change

(36:12):
who I am.
I don't have to throw out mychecklist.
No, my checklist is what shewants.
I just have to deliver it in away that will maximize the
effectiveness and theresponsiveness of her for both
of our benefits.

SPEAKER_00 (36:27):
Okay, so what happens if you do it right, you
translate it, you do it reallywell, but the response is that
maybe she doesn't really knowwhat she's feeling, or she
doesn't know what she wants, orhasn't done some of what we talk

(36:48):
about, what we need to do upfront, and then you're kind of
like, Oh, okay, how do you howdo you mitigate that?
Because it that that happens alot, and I would say oftentimes
women haven't quite likerefined, haven't done the
checklist, right?
They're they're not doing achecklist like we are in our

(37:10):
mind of delineation.
Yes.
Okay, so like what did we dothen?

SPEAKER_02 (37:21):
So, all right.
So we're gonna go back to thedelivery.
The delivery is I'm sharing withher the next item on my
checklist that is the mostimportant to me.
I am not, however, makingrequests based on that item.
It's a very subtle but importantdistinction.
I'm sharing with her what'simportant to me.

(37:42):
I'm not asking her to now takecare of the thing that's most
important to me.
I'm inviting her to go on thatweekend away with us.
I'm not saying, well, will youplease take a weekend away from
me because I don't get to seeyou enough.
The effect of the first one islifting because it's an
invitation.
The effect of the second one isburdening because I'm making a

(38:02):
request and she knows that I'mgoing to be unhappy or you know,
down or depressed, or she'sgonna have to make up for it or
something if she says no.
So we have to be sure that whenwe deliver it, that we're
basically just we're we're beingvulnerable in the sense that
we're sharing what's importantto us, and then we just watch
and see what she does with that.

(38:24):
So if we're presenting it thatway and she's not sure what
she's doing, give her time.
And that takes discipline.

SPEAKER_00 (38:32):
And that's and that's feedback, right?
So it's not it's not failure,it's not necessarily that you
did it wrong, or maybe you know,it's just that that you're
getting the feedback of okay,either she's not ready, she
hasn't thought about it.
What if it is that she doesn'thave a well-defined idea and
it's it's maybe a no or I'm notsure, or do you move into a

(38:58):
conversation around like, well,so share with me what you think
or how you feel about that, orwhat is it that that's in your
mind, or you just let it restand see if okay, try another,
you know, try another invitationat at some point.
Uh so so the question is do youkeep making invitations to you

(39:19):
until you determine that she'snot going to move in in the
direction, or do you have aconversation about, okay, hey,
I've you know, it and and youknow, I'm not doing it right
right now, right?
I'm not even saying it right.
Like, this is the direct, I'mnot translating.
It's like I I I'm serious, likeI struggle with this.

(39:39):
I really need to take the timeto like think about how I'm
gonna do it because my gutinstinct is like, okay, so I've
said three times, uh, what likecan we go out of town together?
And it's never happened.
I'd really like us to bespending more time.
Like, that's the automatic thingthat happens in my head.
So, but do you have thatconversation in a good way, or
do you just kind of say, okay,well, she's not?

SPEAKER_02 (40:03):
So I try as I don't try to avoid conversations.
That's gonna come off wrong.
I should say I I rarely findconscious intellectual
conversations taking thingswhere I want to go energetically
with a woman.
When I engage in conversationsthat are conscious with a woman

(40:24):
about, well, can you tell me whynot?
Or, you know, how much time doyou need, or what, you know, can
you explain more?
And we can use all the bestconversational techniques from
every relationship, you know,paradigm out there.
And I'm sorry, but most of them,if we're discussing it, we're
we're in our heads.
And a woman up in our head isnot where we want a woman to be,

(40:48):
period, point blank.
If I invite a woman to go on aweekend getaway with me, and and
the response I get is not yes,it's something other than yes.
Okay, that was feedback, likeyou said.
That is giving me information.
I gave her information in theinvitation, she gave me
invitation, she gave meinformation in her response.

(41:12):
I now need to go back tonavigating the internal terrain
of myself and ask myself, whatis that information and feedback
that she gave me?
How does that change my own myown situation inside?
Because the question is, howmuch is this woman responding
the way that I'm looking forresponse in a woman?

(41:34):
I come back to that question.
That's a much more importantquestion for me to sit with and
for me to sort out how I feelabout.
Rather than me engaging her inconversation, and let's be
honest, most of the time we'reengaging in conversation, our
real motivation is to get her tosay yes.
Like that, honestly, most of theconversation is to try to change

(41:57):
her mind.
If we're being honest, if wesimply accept it and we go back
to navigating ourselves, we go,okay, she doesn't seem all that
interested in doing a sleepoveranytime soon.
How am I, how much do I likethat on my end?
How much do I really want to getinto a conversation about how
much do I really want to, youknow, continue a commitment with

(42:20):
a woman that doesn't seem thatinterested?
She could, she could have said,I really want to, I just don't
know how that's going to worklogistically.
Notice that she said yes to theinvitation, but now she's asking
me, how can we make this happen?
And she's not sure.
Another woman's like, I'm notreally sure about that.
That that is that is not a yesto my invitation.

(42:41):
And I have to ask myself, isthat the experience?
I am I with the right woman?
Am I involved with the rightwoman?
Before I go talking with herabout her response, I need to
talk with myself about herresponse.

SPEAKER_00 (42:55):
Yeah.
Is there a simple formula thatyou could give us guys for
because so it again, when yousay it, it all makes perfect
sense.
Like, and I guess, guys, the thethe answer is hire Dallas so
that you can go and you can youcan bounce this stuff off, be
part of the community, you canget better at it, right?

(43:17):
Because because clearly he ishis is is very, very good at it,
because it sounds so so easy.
Um so that's the number oneanswer.
But if they can't get involvedand and and and want to
re-listen to this episode overand over, is there like a like a
like a simple equation that Icould that I can put in my mind

(43:38):
and I could be like, okay, Jude,checklist is, you know, stop and
then do your translation andthen think creatively and then
talk.
Like, is there something thatthat you've got for for you know
the stunted guys like me?

SPEAKER_02 (43:55):
Stunted guys like you.
The fact that you're asked thefact that you're asking the
question means you are far fromstunted.
It means you're doing it right.
The fact that you've gone fromyour clear methodology into one
where you're allowing someconfusion, that means that
you're looking to shift yourperspective into a more
effective delivery.
Dude, that's not stunted, that'sadvanced.
That that is like brown beltlevel.

(44:17):
Like that's it.
It's advancing.

SPEAKER_00 (44:19):
It's thinking, it's stunted skills.
All right, we'll put it thatway.
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (44:24):
Okay, I'm I'm just gonna say this because we should
say it more often.
If you're looking for theformula, the formula is like and
subscribe to the podcast.
Because, guys, this is a deepwell, and we're never done with
it.
If you haven't liked andsubscribed, please stop.
Please pause and do that rightnow.
So are there so here's thething.

(44:46):
Yes, there are fundamentalprinciples, and the principles
are not that hard to explain.
Oh, there it it it's, you know,are you gonna ever get them all
in one list?
Ah, that's gonna be tough.
But the principles aren't thataren't really that that hard to
come by.
What I keep talking about is I'mlike I'm saying, I'm navigating

(45:06):
myself rather than trying tonegotiate with her in a
conversation.
Notice that's a theme as I keepcoming back to myself, I find
the most important item, I shareit with her, and then I'm taking
a response home to myself.

SPEAKER_00 (45:18):
Yeah.
So you and that's the navigationis is uh and and so this that
helps right there.
So because what I can do is Ican translate that into a
business philosophy, which is ifyou're not getting the outcome
you want, then you got to workbackwards and figure out a
better, like a better way to go.
So so if I'm navigating myself,I'm not if I'm not getting the

(45:40):
response that that's that thatI'm desiring, right?
Then then I gotta navigatemyself and think about, okay,
well, how did I show up?
Did I not translate properly?
Am I giving too many items onthe checklist?
And then and then it reallytakes some reflection of, well,

(46:00):
what did you do and and how didyou do it, and thinking about a
better way to do it, and thenand then trying again in a
different way, right?

SPEAKER_02 (46:11):
So let me so let me, I I know you're using the word
better way.
I'm just gonna the word I use isdid was I effective the way I
wanted to be.
Did I have the effect that Iwanted to?
And and I asked myself, could Ihave been more effective?
It's not right or wrong becausethe effect that I want to have
is going to be different foreach man.
There's gonna be similarities,of course, but it's going to be

(46:33):
different for each man.
And the way a woman wants to beeffective on her end is going to
be different for each woman.
I have to find the mosteffective masculine version of
Dallas that I can in order forme to have the most blossoming
relationship and the most funadventure with a woman that I
can.
I'm always asking myself, am Ibeing effective?

(46:54):
When I when I look at better orworse, right and wrong, that for
me is a paradigm forself-judgment, self-criticism,
and it knocks me down.
And then I got to climb back upthat dang ladder again.
No.
I'm asking myself, am I beingeffective that I want, you know,
the way I want to be?
And if I'm not, ask myself,well, what would be more
effective?

(47:14):
What would cause the responsethat I'm looking for with this
woman?
But honestly, you said it withme and the two by fours with the
world around me.
What causes the response that Iwant to have?
Notice though that I am, I amtaking on 100% of the
responsibility on myself to showup as effectively as I can.

(47:34):
I don't blame the world.
I don't blame other people, andI definitely don't blame the
woman or even discuss it withher what it is that I'm not
doing.
I think, I think at a certainokay, so I'm saying that like
you never have a conversation.
Obviously, you do.
I personally find sort of like,you know, who brings up the
topic of being in arelationship.

(47:55):
I think it's best to let thewoman, for the most part, bring
up the conversation that shewants to have.
Now I can see all the listenersrolling.
We are howling on the other endof the dog.

SPEAKER_00 (48:08):
Yeah, nobody ever rings the doorbell, and so let's
have an upset.

SPEAKER_02 (48:11):
I thought he was responding to the primal energy
of a man wanting to beeffective.
And he's given us the howl ofthe moon that this is what the
beast inside of every man wantsto have.
I'm just gonna put it that way.

SPEAKER_00 (48:23):
Dude, if it were as easy as how dogs made it, it
would just life would beterrific, but yeah, it's not,
right?

SPEAKER_02 (48:31):
When the howl threw me off, we got into such a
primal place.

SPEAKER_00 (48:36):
So so so so I I I appreciate that.
The are you being effective?
And if you're not, how do you dothat?
And and really what it it seemsto come down to to for me is
that it's just trial and errorthat you're gonna you're gonna
keep trying you're gonna keeptrying, and then if you're if

(48:56):
you're not being effective andnot getting the outcome, and
then you you you try again.
Now, I I guess what for for me,and I know that maybe a lot of
guys, especially if you're justgetting that that's very
worrisome, right?
Like, again, are you screwing upand are you like what you kind
of get you get paralyzed bythinking about it and and

(49:19):
analyzing it.
And how do you how do you avoidthat?
Because if you don't get if youdon't get the response, then and
and I then you internalize it,and then you get in your head
like, hey, well man, then itbecomes a like a train wreck,
right?

SPEAKER_02 (49:33):
Okay, so so what okay, so what we're delivering,
we're not doing that for aresponse.
That would be a nice guyapproach, okay?

SPEAKER_00 (49:42):
Ah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 (49:43):
Notice that I'm saying I have a checklist inside
of me that's my checklist.
I'm finding the next mostimportant item on my checklist.
That is genuine.
That is me.
That's not what I think the nextthing that she wants is.
That would be a nice guyapproach.
I'm asking myself, I gosh darnit, I want to fall asleep with
this woman all night and havebreakfast with her in the

(50:06):
morning.
That is the most important thingfor me stepping into this
relationship together.
That's the thing that I need.
That's a me thing, that's aDallas thing.
I'm gonna take that one item onthe checklist and I'm gonna ask
myself, okay, what's the mosteffective delivery of this to
her?
And when you're in thatsituation, I understand that we
can worry about it.

(50:26):
First of all, one, you boil itdown to one thing that's
important to you.
Anybody can handle one thing.
And then you look at it, useyour imagination and ask yours,
and and in your imagination,imagine how would she respond to
this if I if I present it thisway or if I present it that way?
One of the principles of this isalways it should be an

(50:49):
invitation and not a request.
That's part of the instructionmanual.
When you present things as aman, present them as
invitations, not requests.
If you're going to make arequest, label it that.
Can I make a request here?
Can we always brush our teethbefore we go to bed?
Because it just I like it.
And you know, and it's a simplething, but label it as a

(51:12):
request.
Don't be like, you know, weshould really brush our teeth
before we go our teeth before wego to bed.
No, like it should be.
Can I make a request here?
And and that that calls it outfor what it is.
You're making the request asopposed to right and wrong.
Sorry, I went a little bit offthe weed, uh, you know, into the
into the into the weeds there.

(51:32):
But it is okay to make requests,call them out, keep them simple.
Looks like you are.

SPEAKER_00 (51:36):
Yeah, no, that's that's that's that's good to
keep in mind that you're thatyou're keeping your frame of
where you want.
You're not eliminating yourchecklist, and you're not trying
to like move things in differentways to you know to to try to
make her happy to get the youknow, like you said, that's a

(51:59):
that's a nice guy tactic, givingsomething in order to get
something in in in return.
You want to avoid that.
That is codependent, that leadsyou down a path of uh unhealthy
relational dynamic, absolutelypositively, you don't want to do
that.
But what my my my point, myquestion was is if you if you're
if you're not and and you didyou you laid it out clearly, if

(52:22):
you're not getting the reactionand it's not moving where you
want, then you're either gonnacontinue to try different ways
in which to to do that, right?
Or are you not hearing me?

SPEAKER_02 (52:37):
Now I hear you.
Yeah.
Sorry, I missed the last abouteight seconds of you talking.
I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_00 (52:42):
Okay.
So so you don't want to be likegiving to get.
That's that's codependency,that's an unhealthy
relationship.
But if you're if you've got yourcheck like checklist, you've got
one, and you know that's the onethat you're working on, but
you're you're not getting you'renot getting the response that

(53:04):
that you're you're thinking orthat you desire, then you're you
might be trying different thingsand getting the feedback, but
that's that's all I'm saying isyou're you're looking for the
feedback, you might be trying,maybe your your approach to it
was wrong.
Maybe you didn't invite, right?
As opposed to to request.

(53:26):
So you you make a change, andthen if you're if you feel like
you've exhausted allpossibilities and you're not
getting to that next part in thechecklist, then you have a
decision to make, like you saidearlier, which is well, it
doesn't seem like this is ismoving in a in a direction
that's is going to be what Ineed, right?

(53:47):
What what I want because you'rethe one that's leading this.
Yes.
Is that fair?
Is that fair to sum up kind ofwhat you're saying?

SPEAKER_02 (53:54):
Yeah, that sounds that sounds good and accurate to
me.
When you want something in arelationship, if the next most
important thing is for me to seethis woman at least twice a
week, because frequency isimportant to me, if that's if
that's the next most importantthing to in the relationship, as
a man, let me just say this veryclearly to every man listening.

(54:14):
That is a hundred percent valid.
And there are definitely womenout there that will give you
what you're looking for.
When you present what it is thatyou want to her, really, the
only thing you need to becareful of is that you're
presenting it as a positivething, an attractive thing.
It's it's you know, it'ssomething that you want and

(54:35):
you're positively embracing it,and you're inviting her to
experience it with you.
And and you're not making arequest that she does it.
That's what's going to give youthe that's what's going to
deliver that with the best sugarcoating that you can get.
It's going to go down theeasiest on her end.
But understand that the desirethat you have, it is legitimate

(54:59):
to you.
And if she is not saying yes tothat, okay, let's let's just
repeat that back.
She's not saying yes to thelegitimate desires that you
have.
Is that the right woman for youto be with?
This shouldn't turn into a hugegame of tactics and multiple
questions and everything.

(55:20):
Stand true to yourself.
This is something that I want.
It's good, it's healthy, it'swhatever it is.
I'm built to desire this.
And this woman is is not sayingyes to it.
Am I dating the right woman?
It it's really as simple asthat.
You know, I this this I was uhsome sometime a while back, I

(55:43):
was I was in this datingsituation, and I was dating a
woman that was very feminine.
And that meant that, you know,it's very not checklist, very
not structured.
You know, she would be flowingand she would say something, and
and I would get there and itwould all be amorphous, but it
was in a beautiful, attractiveway.
And, you know, I eventually, youknow, I was talking to one of my

(56:04):
you know older mentors, and I,you know, I was I was talking
with him about it, and then Iand then I finally said, you
know what?
You know, I'm you know what?
I should focus on navigatingmyself because there's no way
that I can ever navigate her.
You're never gonna be able tonavigate a woman.
And you know what?

(56:24):
She doesn't really want us tonavigate her.
What she wants is for us to bemasters of navigating ourselves
as men.
And we can do that.
And when we're engaged, whenwe're engaging with a woman, if
I focus on navigating myself, Idon't have to worry so much
about navigating her.

SPEAKER_00 (56:43):
Yeah, the the visual I've I've heard used for that,
which is you're kind of a boaton the sea, right?
You're you're you're navigatingyourself, your ship, you know
where you're going, you knowwhat you're doing, you're in
control, but the waves and theweather and everything else is
her going on around you, butyou're still steady, you still

(57:04):
have your rudder, you're likeyou, you know your vessel and
you know how to get where youwant to go.

SPEAKER_02 (57:10):
Yeah.
And and this might soundparadoxical, but you want to
invite those waves.
You don't want to show up to theocean on your boat trying to
tell the ocean to calm down.
After you share, after you sharewhat's definitely not effective.
Yeah.
After you share what's importantto you, which again, you going

(57:32):
first as a man, you're beingvulnerable.
You're making her feel safebecause you're going first.
After you've done that, inviteher to put what she wants on the
plate.
I know I'm totally mixingmetaphors here, but just go with
it, guys.

SPEAKER_01 (57:45):
Yeah, that's okay.
Yeah, we're off in ship now.

SPEAKER_02 (57:48):
Yeah.
Invite her to share with youwhat's most important to her.
Invite her to bring anyconversations that she wants to
the table.
But realize that when she'sbringing that conversation to
the table, it's very differentthan how we did it.
We brought we're bringing theconversation to the table
because we already know what wewant and where we're trying to

(58:09):
go.
And honestly, that conversation,a lot of the times, no matter
how we want to say it is, it'sactually trying to get what we
want.
It's trying to convince andchange someone's mind.
That's a lot of it.
When a lot of times, though,women, when they're bringing
conversations to the table,they're not really that straight
and linear in their mind aboutwhat they want.
They're bringing it to the tableto kind of like just spread the

(58:33):
cards face up and oh, can wetalk about this?
But really, what she's sayingis, can you help me get this out
so it can be more clear to me?
Those are waves, guys.
That's the ocean splashing overthe side because she's gonna say
weird things that might hurt ourlittle egos, they might cause us

(58:53):
to doubt, they might c mightsound like, oh, she's not that
interested.
Gentlemen, she's she's justunloading, she's just she's just
getting it out of herselfbecause she can't create the
clarity in herself.
We can.
The fact that we have thesechecklists and we can create
this clarity, that is themasculine gift that we bring to

(59:14):
the table.
Let her talk about a minute.

SPEAKER_00 (59:18):
Yeah, let's let's talk about that for a minute.
I hadn't anticipated talkingabout that, and we're really
we're going long now again, butI I I feel that's a really
important one because that'swhere it gets to the complete
difference in thinking.
We've got a a checklist, weprobably have a plan A, B, C
through Z as guys and and womenmost often, especially if

(59:44):
they're very feminine, don't,right?
And and so what you justdescribed, I think is very
frustrating to guys a lot of thetime.
If you do ask or you do, so howdo you then how do you sort
through that with her in a waythat is like allows her to open

(01:00:06):
up and talk about and and notjust talk about but refine?
Because you're you're almost,and I'm not saying this in a
derogatory manner, you're you'reyou're you're almost providing a
a therapy.
Session in helping her to get intouch with her feelings and what
she wants so that she canhopefully join you in the

(01:00:27):
direction that you want to go,right?
And that's not to that's justkind of the the the way that it
works, which is another thingthat is really frustrating and
challenging, right?
Because I'm saying, Dallas,we're moving rocks in your
you're you're saying, Jude,you're you're moving rocks in
the backyard tomorrow, and I'mshowing up with my gloves and my
work boots and you know ready togo because I know and I don't

(01:00:52):
like I don't have to think aboutit.
And you don't have to, I don'thave to show up and you don't
have to massage me into how todo that and everything.
Like, how do we how do we handlethat then when it's like I don't
know?

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:06):
It's it's it's not that complicated, believe it or
not.
Well, I should say theprinciples are not that
complicated.
Remembering the principles andapplying them in the moment,
that is infinitely challengingbecause the situations always
change.
But here's the principle theprinciple is number one, shut up
and listen.

(01:01:26):
Stop talking, stop trying totell her what you think and
listen.
The reason you want to listen isbecause she is she needs to get
it out.
If you're talking, you changethe flow of the conversation,
and now she has to take in againand it's just building up and
bottling up inside of her.
Shut up, listen, and let hershare it, and then encourage her

(01:01:48):
to share more and say, I want tohear more.
I what tell me more about wherethis is coming from.
Is you know, is there more foryou to share?
You know, I'm you know, and ifyou say thank you, if you say,
I'm loving that you're sharingall this, I love that you're
getting all this out, you'reyou're essentially validating
her action and you're tellingher, you're doing exactly what I

(01:02:11):
want in this young relationshipthat's getting started.
You're sharing your feelingswith me.
You're giving me all your tonsof rough drafts and
brainstorming notes.
I love it.
As a man, thank you for sharingthis.
Please dump it all out here onthe table.
That's step one is to encourageher, don't interrupt her and

(01:02:31):
encourage her to dump it allout.
That in itself is going to causeher to feel a lot cleaner and
unburdened inside on her own.
That's just that's just feminineemotional regulation right
there.
They need to talk and get it outand and they need somebody to
listen to it.
And a man's ears are differentto them than a woman's ears.

(01:02:52):
We get into that in some otherepisode.
We can talk about that.
But having a man listen to heris going to be fundamentally
different than all the otherwomen in her life.
Once she has dumped all thatout, all that out on the table,
again, as a guy, we start tosort it out.
We're gonna start shooting ourthoughts at her.
And, you know, the the the oldtrope, you know, the old term
for this is trying to fix herproblems.

(01:03:15):
Do not try to fix her problems,do not try to add anything to
what's on the table.
It's all her.
And and that is really tough fora guy to do.
Sit on your hands, take abreath, lean back.
You are still supposed to belistening mostly.
And then your gift as a man isclarity.

(01:03:37):
Let me say that again.
Your gift as a man by yourself,navigating yourself is you're
finding clarity, you're bringingclarity to her with this one
item, and you're inviting her.
That's clarity.
She loves it.
Well, she's dumping all thisstuff from her emotional insides
out on the table.
We have the same gift that wedid before, the gift of clarity.

(01:03:58):
But the clarity here isn't totell her what we think we should
do.
The clarity is for her to seeherself.
It's like imagine you've got oneof those little compact mirrors,
you know, that they used tohave, you know, that fold down,
you know, that ladies powdertheir nose with in the black and
white movies from the 50s.
Imagine you've got a littlemirror like that, and you know,
it's down on the table with allthe things that she shared, and

(01:04:22):
you notice something.
Again, noticing.
This is you know, the termsnotice, being curious.
You notice something about whatshe says, and you know, well, it
sounds to me actually like thisis kind of important to you.
Is that, am I hearing thatright?
Notice I'm not contributing whatI think.
I'm merely reflecting back toher a little piece, a little

(01:04:43):
piece of clarity.
That's what she needs from herman.
And again, if you're in an earlystage of a relationship, she's
trying you out to see if you'reher man.
Can you reflect back littlepieces of clarity?
And then she's the one thatconnects the dots.
Okay.
And you find other little piecesof clarity and you let her

(01:05:03):
connect the dots.
If you connect the dots for her,that's like doing this is gonna
sound really pejorative.
That's gonna like that's likedoing somebody else's homework
for them or letting them cheatyou off a test.
They have to do it themselves.
Everybody has to walk through itthemselves, but you can just
provide little glimpse ofclarity along the way, and she

(01:05:25):
will feel like you know, you'rethe best man in the world
because you're giving her yourgift.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:30):
Yeah, yeah, a little glimpse of clarity, but then
also that's a lot of veryvaluable information for you to
take back, then to then look atyou know, whatever that that
item is that's that that you'removing toward, and then make
make an adjustment.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:48):
And here's and here's the other thing.
During this process, when when aman learns how to do this, and
this is a learned skill, when aman learns how to do this, the
woman, again, the woman isusually a lot of the time the
one bringing the conversation tothe table.
She's giving this big emotionaldump.
We're not reacting to it, we'relistening, and then we're
reflecting back little pieces ofclarity that we're suggesting

(01:06:11):
might make sense.
When we're doing all of that,guess what?
We're not focused on ourselvesfor once.
We are in service to her.
What that does that most mendon't realize because they
haven't experienced it, is thatactually that is a huge pressure
relief valve inside of us as aman.

(01:06:33):
When I can focus on her, listen,receive, reflect back to her own
clarity.
Boy, I can't even remember thisthing I've been wanting so
intensely for the last threeweeks.
I just can't even rememberbecause I'm not in my own head
worried about my own checklist.
I'm actually paying attention tothe woman that I'm involved

(01:06:53):
with.
And it has a regulating effecton me because I'm being selfless
in this moment, because I amliterally at her service.
And when I do that as a man,that relieves me of all of the
pressure of well, what I don'teven remember what I brought to
the table and whether she saidyes or no.
I don't remember.

(01:07:14):
And suddenly when she's sharingthese things and I've gone into
really, I'm listening and it'sabout her, all kinds of new
desires suddenly start to stirup inside of me, new
opportunities, new interests,new desires that she had.
I didn't know any of these werethere.
And unless I switch into fulllistening mode and I'm

(01:07:39):
reflecting back with her, unlessI do that, I'm only working off
the information inside of my ownhead and my own heart.
Those are the moments when shebrings the wave comes crashing
over the side of the boat.
That's that is the gift of allof that feminine energy giving
us all this new information thatmight even change what I desire

(01:07:59):
inside of me.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:01):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:01):
And that cool, that back and forth is a
relationship.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:07):
Yeah.
Wow, we covered a lot, myfriends.
This is I I think I'm gonnaactually have to go back and
re-listen to this myself to likeor listen to the or read this
transcript because we coveredway more than my two and a half
pages of notes that that I havefor us to start out.

(01:08:27):
But as usual, Dallas,tremendous, tremendous insight.
You are just unbelievable.
Let the guys know how they canget in touch.
Talk again a little bit abouthow they can get involved in
your in your community.
I don't remember what you callthe community, the community as
well.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:46):
Yeah, uh, so go to blackboxdating.com.
That's the website, the men'scoaching program.
That's how you can get involved.
We have weekly office hours thatare virtual on Wednesday
evenings.
Uh, last Friday or Saturday ofthe month, I do a live in the
field, which is usually here inDenver.
That's where we guys gettogether in person.
We're doing activities.

(01:09:07):
There's nothing that replacesthe in-person flesh and blood to
really complete the messaging,practice getting into your body.
Certain things just can't becommunicated over Zoom.
They just can't.
Yeah, so blackboxdating.com.
Guys, if you haven't subscribedto the podcast, please do like
and subscribe to it.
By the time this episode comesout, we will already have had

(01:09:28):
our monthly QA with Jude'sQuorum of Men.
But as we're recording this,it's going to be tomorrow.
Really looking forward to that.
Jude, can you tell guys how theycan get a part of your
community?

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:40):
Yeah, check out the divorcedadvocate.com, and
there's resources for youwherever you're at in your
divorce.
So, Dallas, thank you so much.
It was another phenomenal,phenomenal episode, and my head
is swimming as usual.
You make me want to go outthere, figure stuff out, learn

(01:10:01):
all this.
It's it's just great.
You're uh you're a blessing tothe to the men out there and to
relationships.
So appreciate you.
We'll talk next week.
All right, talk next week, dude.

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:11):
Thank you.