24 - Who Pays on the First Date?

The first date “Who pays?” moment can tank chemistry or lift the whole night—and after divorce, the stakes feel even higher. We dig into the chivalry paradox: honoring equality while still creating romance, leading without controlling, and paying without turning the bill into a negotiation. Our goal is simple: help you build experiences that feel generous, safe, and fun, not transactional.

We start by rewriting the playbook around compliments and presence. Instead of focusing on looks, notice effort and choices—outfits, accessories, hair, even the care she puts into her space. That shift tells her you see the person, not just the packaging. From there, we lay out a clean framework for paying: if you invite, you lead, and you likely cover coffee or drinks. Keep it low‑pressure, signal surplus with “No big deal, I’ve got it,” and anchor the moment in the experience you’ve just shared. If she prefers to split early on, respect the boundary without getting prickly. Red flags like mooching or entitlement? Trust your gut and set a clear exit.

We also map the deeper dynamic: investing versus extracting. Money is only one resource. Attention, planning, appreciation, and emotional presence matter just as much. Look for signs that she contributes—offering to grab dessert, planning the next stop, expressing sincere thanks, or simply showing up engaged and put together. That’s how two people co‑create a vibe worth keeping. And remember, a woman’s independence is complete in one word—no. When you respect that without turning it into a power struggle, you demonstrate strength and safety.

If this helped reframe your first‑date playbook, follow the show, share it with a dad who’s back in the arena, and leave a quick rating or comment so more listeners can find us.

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_02 (00:40):
Hello, and welcome to Dad's Dating After Divorce,
the only podcast addressing thewild and crazy environment of
dating post-divorce.
My name is Jude Sandball.
I am the founder of The DivorcedDapvo Kit, and my co-host every
week is Dallas Bluth, thefounder of Black Box Dating.

(01:02):
Dallas, how are you doing today?

SPEAKER_00 (01:04):
Doing fabulous, Jude.
Happy to be uh entering into theholiday season here.
Thanksgiving's tomorrow.
Love this time of year.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11):
Oh man, it is my favorite.
Thanksgiving is one of myfavorites as well.
I'm gonna have like 20, 30people tomorrow.
Let's see where, yeah, tomorrowwe're recording the day before.
So gearing up, but but amexcited to talk about our topic
today, which is basically whatis that first date rule of who

(01:33):
pays on the date?
Right.
And and I'll tell you the originis my daughters and I were
having dinner last night, andthey're 15 and 17, and we were
talking around this a littlebit.
My my youngest had an experienceat early earlier in the year

(01:53):
where she went to one of thedances and the guy didn't pay
it.
She was all upset.
And and and and so just we weretalking about it last night, and
they asked me, Well, Dad, do youdo you always pay when you go on
the date?
And so we kind of got into thisdiscussion with the 15 and
17-year-old.
And then I was I was thinking,wow, this would be a really

(02:14):
great one for for me to hearwhat Dallas has to say.
Because it's Dallas isenlightened, Dallas deals with
this all the time.
And and so, you know, it's asdads, it's kind of a whole
different ballgame now.
We're we're we're datingpost-divorce.
Once upon a time, I think it wasprobably pretty caught and dry

(02:34):
that you you paid.
The guy paid on the date, youasked her out and and and you
paid.
You know, now we've got youknow, we've we've got a whole
different dynamics.
We've got this the wholeequality thing, we've got some
women, like there's lots ofwomen I've been out on dates
with make more money than thanthan than I do.

(02:57):
And and and that's uh that's areality too.
And and then we've got otherthings like alimony and
challenge support and all thatstuff that that factor into our
mentality around this, right?
So leaky pipes that are drainingthe resources.
Right, right.
So so you know, we've got allthat going on, but here's for me

(03:19):
what the really confusing partis is despite all of what we
just described and all of whatsome would say is progress,
progress, right?
Let's put it in in air quotes,because that could be that's
subjective, right?
That that word progress, thevast majority of dating
expectations have not shiftedthat much when it comes to,

(03:44):
especially like the the thefirst date.
And so what I'm what I'mlabeling this is the the
chivalry paradox, right?
The chivalry paradox.
She wants to be treated as anequal, but she also wants to be
courted.
And like there's nothing that'sgonna kill the the romance or

(04:06):
the vibe faster during thecourting process of pulling out
your phone and you knowcalculating what's 50-50 on a on
a date, right?
So so let's let's talk.
Is there is there a first daterule?
Like what who should be like,how do we go about traversing
this awkward weirdness?

SPEAKER_01 (04:27):
And maybe we can get into some details and I'll give
you some some scenarios andmaybe some some real life you
know things that I'veencountered too.

SPEAKER_00 (04:36):
Wow.
Okay, I have I had like sixdifferent like places to start
while listening to you introducethis topic, and I'm trying to
remember what some of them are.
Okay, let me answer real quick.
You know, are there rules now?
No, there are not.
Okay.
And and one of the one of theprinciples I tell all the guys
and also the women that you knowthat I encounter is everybody
comes to the table with theirown rule book.

(04:58):
And if you think or you assumethat somebody else is playing
out of the same rule book thatyou are, you're gonna get
butthurt a lot.
And that's on you.
You cannot expect other peopleto be playing out of the same
rule book as you.
Our society is simply not thathomogenous in its behavior
anymore.
You can't do that.
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (05:18):
This one gets very confused.

SPEAKER_00 (05:20):
You're yeah, you're gonna get confused, but you're
also gonna get hurt becauseyou're like, why did they
misbehave?
They didn't misbehave accordingto their own set of rules as far
as how these things go.
And when you realize that it'snot personal, they're playing
from a different rule book thanyou are.
That that unhooks you from yourown emotional reactions.
And that is always where youwant to be leading from as a

(05:42):
man, is a non-reactive placewhere you have compassion and
understanding that other peopleare coming from other places.

SPEAKER_02 (05:48):
Okay, but that's a really that's a really good
point.
Well, that's a really good pointbecause the mindset that you go
into the date with is going toset the tone for the entire
relationship, really, if youwant to look at it, look at it
that way.
So that's a that's a good point.
Be in a good place, right?
Don't get butthurt aboutanything.
Yeah, try not to get butthurtabout anything.

(06:09):
I mean, yeah, is is to whateverextent you you can, but that's a
really good point.

SPEAKER_00 (06:15):
Good.
Okay, so I want to actuallyrewind all the way back to the
story with your daughters.
And you know, so she's 15.
And I'm gonna say that I I mean,I I don't know, but I'm gonna
guess that she was kind ofbummed because the guy not
paying, I'm gonna guess, madeher feel less special.

(06:35):
I'm just gonna guess that thatat the core of it was probably
part of what she felt.
And we're talking about a15-year-old girl here.
So, like, we don't get any moreyoung and progressive than
you're still in high school,middle school.
Like, that's about as young andprogressive as it gets.
And here was a girl who felt,not thought.
This wasn't this, it doesn'tsound to me like she's coming

(06:57):
from a righteous place or that,you know, this is supposed to be
like that, would express itselfmore like frustration or anger
or something like that.
Instead, it's like she wasbummed, I'm gonna guess, because
her date didn't make her feel asspecial as she wanted to feel.
How, how, how on or off base amI with that?

SPEAKER_02 (07:16):
Yeah, you're spot on because we we've and and this
isn't the first time we had thediscussion last night.
She always brings up and laughsabout the fact that she didn't,
you know, she didn't order thefried rice, which was more
expensive, right?
And she would have if she knewshe was paying herself.
She's finding trying to beconscientious and nice and not

(07:37):
and and and so and then so welaugh about like just get the
fried rice, right?
Don't worry about it.
It's okay.
But and and that's kind of thejoke.
But also in that she does talkabout, she has talked about
disappointment, right?
Like, like feeling specialdisappointment, and and she's
commented on other other ways inwhich he didn't throughout the

(07:59):
date convey to her that she thatthat she felt you know that she
was special and that that shelooked nice, or that he was
excited to be on a date wherethey're all you know, some of
these things.
And and granted, he's a teenageboy, so there's a ton of grace
around that with him, becauselook, we're you know, decades

(08:21):
down the road learning some ofthis stuff, and now trying to
share what what little we doknow with some of the other guys
to help.
But you're exactly spot on,which is you know, that that
experience, that feeling thatshe wanted to have in the moment
and at the at dinner and on adate when in the dance and and

(08:42):
all that just did not did nottranspire.

SPEAKER_00 (08:45):
Okay, like I'm sorry, my heart is going out to
your daughter right now becauseOh, it was so sad.
Well, I mean, could becausehere's the thing.
Like, okay, first of all, who isnot who is not guiding this boy?
Okay, like a lot of us likegrowing up, we we lacked
guidance, we did.
But somebody, somebody needs tostep up and help guide this
young man.
Yes, we do cut slack for teenageboys, but then again, if you're

(09:08):
dating a teenage girl, likethey, you know, they they don't
get nicer than than teenage, youknow.
It's like, you know, the teenageboy should be on point, you
know, at least with some of thebasics.
Somebody should be clueing himin.
We can't expect him to cluehimself in, but yeah, older men,
older men should be, and I meanhis dad, you know, should be
mentoring and helping him do it.

(09:30):
Okay, but here's the part thatlike totally breaks my heart is
your daughter was actually goingabove and beyond to be super
conscientious by ordering thewhite rice rather than the brown
rice, saving him a bucktwenty-five or whatever.
You know, but you know, and andlike, and that is that is that
really needs to be acknowledged.
That really needs to beappreciated.

(09:51):
And when he didn't pay for her,all of now I I know he didn't
know she was making thosechoices, but let's let's unpack
that for a minute.
Okay.
Men uh women put, I don't know,something like 10 times the
amount of effort into theirappearance on average than men
do.
Okay, so women show up on datesand they have made spent way
more time grooming, cleaning,and and dressing themselves and

(10:15):
putting together their outfitthan men.
On average, there is no doubtabout this.
For the most part, it goesunappreciated by men.
Here, you know, your daughter'sin a passive role, she's making
choices about what she is orisn't going to eat to try to be
conscientious and to make theexperience nice for her date so
he doesn't have to pay more.
A lot of times, women are makingthese choices, they're doing

(10:37):
these things to beaccommodating, and they're not
gonna tell us about it.
They're not gonna go, hey, bythe way, I spend 45 minutes, you
know, shaving, waxing, puttingon makeup, picking out the right
dress and shoes.
Like they're not gonna tell usthat.
They're just gonna do it.
Okay, we need to assume that weneed to show our appreciation
right out the door for theeffort that they made to be

(11:00):
there.
Let's also put into that thefact that women in general are
across the board more vulnerablethan men.
Them coming to the table bringsthat vulnerability.
We want to show an appreciationfor it.
Yeah.
And so, yeah, all of that now.

SPEAKER_02 (11:17):
Well, and and and so let's let's talk about that
because I this and we live inColorado too, so kind of these
these dressing norms andquaffing norms are a little bit
different than maybe New YorkCity or Los Angeles or or or or
somewhere else.
But I genuinely appreciate whena woman shows up and looks put

(11:43):
together.
That's the west that's the bestway I can say it is put
together.
Like it doesn't have to bedesigner, whatever, but if she
looks really good and she showsup and like it's just and and
you can tell that she's taken,if she shows up in like sweats
and her gym shoes and and andyou know, a hat on or whatever,

(12:04):
you can tell that there has notbeen an effort made.
And I think that that is a realgood gauge, like off the bat, as
to the level of effort thatsomebody's gonna put into
something.
And now, you know, we're gonnago into maybe like coffee dates
versus drinks versus dinner inyou know, here in in in a little

(12:24):
bit.
So obviously that that dependsupon what what you are doing and
and how you are doing.
But I really feel you can uh andand tell me if you if you feel
so I when I see somebodyimmediately, I can tell effort,
no effort.
Yes, yeah, that's the word.
I want to acknowledge it like,oh hey, I love that outfit.

(12:45):
Or even or if it's a cool hat orwhatever, or your hair is really
neat, or that's a uniquependant, or or whatever.
I want to acknowledge that ifshe does look, if she doesn't,
then I don't say anything, or Imight even give a little neg on
something like, oh, yeah, youdidn't get the the the the the
the notice to actually get outof your pajamas, right?

SPEAKER_01 (13:06):
Or something, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (13:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I you know, you you mentioneddifferent styles in different
cities, you know, differentareas.
It I think it's completely truethat, you know, we're at both in
Colorado, it's a more relaxed,active lifestyle.
But but you know, whether that'sthe style or you know, you're
dressed up New York, you know,style or whatever it is, I'm

(13:30):
gonna say these are on anX-axis, you know, they're sort
of equal in, you know, what whatworks for the environment that
you're in, what works for theparticular occasion that you're
in, is you're picking theappropriate style that matches.
That's the x-axis.
The y-axis is the effort axis.
So how much effort did someoneput into that particular style?
You can still be dressed for ahike and look really good, or

(13:54):
you can be looked like you'redressed for a hike and you know,
you just rolled out of a U-Haulvan, you know, that, you know,
because somebody kidnapped you,you know, two weeks ago.
Like you can, you can look very,you can have very different
levels of effort that you'reputting it out.
And you nailed it when you saidthat what you want to talk about
when you're making a woman feelspecial, when you're making her,

(14:15):
when you're giving her acompliment, you want to
compliment her effort.
And I'm gonna put with that,you're gonna want to compliment
her choices.
We had one episode, I don't knowif it was last week or the week
before, that was about coldapproach.
One of the basic elements ofcold approach, I've heard this
from women.
I just had a conversation theother day with yet another
woman.
She was talking about menapproaching her in Walmart.

(14:36):
And she was talking about howmuch, you know, these guys, you
know, they're like, oh my gosh,you're so beautiful.
Yeah.
And and they'll come up to it.
And I said, and I'm like, well,what would have worked?
And I said, what if theycomplimented you on something
more specific that was yourchoice that you had made in what
you wear?
And so you're complimenting theeffort and the choice rather

(14:57):
than the final result.
And she said, Oh, yeah, thatwould have completely made me
more comfortable and relaxed.
Women want to be acknowledgedand they want to feel special
for the choices that they'vemade.
By the way, guys, as anothertip, when you eventually go back
to that woman's apartment,that's like seeing her dressed
up for the first time.
You that that apartment, if itlooks good, did not happen by

(15:19):
accident.
That woman has made dozens orhundreds of individual style and
interior design choices.
She has matched those colors,she has matched those textures,
she has picked out thosepillows.
It does not look like the theinside of a magazine by
accident.
And all of that is deliberateeffort.
It's money that's being spentand choices that are being made.

(15:41):
Acknowledge that.
Help her see and feel specialbecause you're seeing the person
that actually made thesechoices.
I know we're on a little bit ofa tangent, but would you agree
with that?

SPEAKER_02 (15:51):
No, no, I think that's really good.
I think that's funny.
We maybe we do a little wholeepisode on like, so you know,
you don't want to just plop onon the couch when you get there.
If you do something like look atthings and ask about things and
their apartment, and hey, tellme about this piece, or that's
an interesting picture.
What's the background of that?

(16:12):
Like, that is really gonna setthe mood in getting her to open
up and feel comfortable andhaving you in in her space.
But maybe, you know, that's awhole that's a whole nother
conversation that we can have.
But I think that's a that's athat's a great point.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (16:26):
Yeah, I'd love to ask her.
It's like, hey, can you help mepick out some furniture?
You know, it's it shows that Ireally respect what she does and
and that I and that I want tomake the effort too, and I do
make the effort, but that maybeher skill level is a little
higher than mine.
That is complimenting a woman.
I'm not I'm not beingself-deprecating when I say that
because we can always do better,but I'm inviting her into my

(16:48):
world, and it's a very indirectway of complimenting her on her
on her style.

SPEAKER_02 (16:52):
Yeah.
All right.
And let's can can I point outsomething else, and maybe you
can expand on this a little bit,is and and then we'll get back
onto the onto the who pays inthe first date thing.
But I think this is importantinformation, is is you said
complimenting something otherthan looks, which are something
that is like there's not, we'reborn like we're kind of born

(17:14):
like I got the receiving hell.
There's not much I can and can'tdo with some of that stuff.
But if you're complimenting onbehavior and behavior
specifically around choices andlike the behavior, the the
choices to really take the timeto look good or or or go pick
out a good outfit or have some,you know, or or or do your

(17:34):
nails, like that's that's aneffort, right?
That's that is something thatthen they they have control of
that you can recognize, right?
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (17:43):
Yes.
So basically, if you're talkingabout her genetics, she has no
control over that.
Right.
And she gets complimented allthe time.
The problem is, as men, we arewired to look at the genetics.
So we're talking about whatcomes first in our mind.
Nothing wrong with that.
But have that as an insideinternal dialogue with yourself,
going, boy, do I love hernatural blonde hair and blue

(18:04):
eyes.
Okay, that's genetic, guys.
There's there isn't you're notgoing to get very far by
complimenting her out of thegate, by complimenting her on
her natural blonde hair and blueeyes.
Just not going to get you veryfar.
You can recognize that toyourself, that you're attracted
to that.
You want to compliment her onwhat she has done with herself,
the effort that she's made, thechoices that she's made.

(18:26):
One, I'm not going to takecredit for this because I didn't
come up with it, but it was afemale dating coach that said
when you want to approachsomeone in the street, talk
about a woman in the street,talk about three things what
she's wearing, what she'sholding, or what she's doing.
All of these things, what she'swearing, what she's holding, and
what she's doing, reflect backto the person that she is and
and choices that she's made,thing that she's doing with

(18:48):
herself.
We've all heard, you know, womensay they want to be seen by a
man and not just attracted toand objectified.
What's beneath that, and this iscoming back to my friend I was
just having a discussion withabout Walmart approach, cold
approaches this weekend, is shefeels pressured.
She feels put on the spot if allshe senses is his genetic

(19:10):
attraction to her genetics.

unknown (19:13):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (19:13):
If that's all she senses, she's like, okay, well,
what happens when my geneticsaren't so great anymore and I'm
getting older and I'm just Idon't look the way you want.
Are you just going to move on tothe next most attractive genetic
option?
Right.
Or are you attracted to theperson?
And do you even know thedifference?
Do you know the differencebetween the way that I just look

(19:33):
naturally and how much of thiswas effort?
Because that speaks to how muchare you actually going to
appreciate the effort that I putinto this?
Or how much of it are you justassume that I look this way,
even though I do yoga four timesa week and I spend all this time
putting myself together.
The woman wants to know thatyou're not just there because

(19:54):
she looks attractive and youwant to consume her.
She wants to know that you havean appreciation and awareness,
and that you're talking aboutthe person that she is, which is
her choices and her behavior,and not just the package that
she's presenting.
That's it's it's it's incrediblydeep and difficult to pull those

(20:14):
two apart, but women totallywill respond differently to your
cold approach.
So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (20:19):
Well, and that goes back to what we talked about in
the the challenge we gave guyslast week, which was warm
interactions.
Just learn to have warminteractions with people in
general.
And if you can carry thatthrough to having warm
interactions with a woman thatyou are attracted to, then
that's gonna go a long way.
So just put off the attraction,you don't have to put off the

(20:41):
attraction, just know thatyou're attracted to her.
But that's not what you'rehaving the the interaction
about.
You're having a warm interactionwith somebody that you are
attracted to.
So that's why the the thechallenge we gave to the to the
dads listening last week waslearn to have warm interactions
with everybody.
And then when you meet somebodythat you're attracted to, you're

(21:03):
just naturally gonna have a warminteraction that's gonna lead to
potentially having a date withwith that person.
So it becomes it becomesnatural, right?
A natural way for you to show upin the world.
Yes, exactly.
So all right, dude, we are sofar off topics.
Let's get back to that playbook,right?
Yeah, well, you know, we get offon tangents, but they're really
important tangents, I I feel.

(21:24):
So I I'm never you know, I'mnever upset that that we do
that.
So we show up with our differentrule books, right?
Like I'm thinking one thing,she's thinking, whatever,
equality, and I'm not wanna beum, you know, I I I don't want
to be the have to to beemboldened, not to embolden, I'm

(21:45):
I'm I don't want to be I don'thave to be talking about being
overly assertive?
Uh-huh.
Yeah, yeah.
I don't want to be indebted tothis person because they're
they're you know they're payingfor me and I feel obligated,
right?
Obligated or indebted to theperson, et cetera.
Like, so they're showing how dowe mitigate?

(22:05):
How do we how do we mitigatethat, right?

unknown (22:07):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (22:07):
So I'll just use myself as an example.
Like, I always want to pay.
I'm planning on paying, right?
I I but I'm doing the asking,right?
I'm making the plan.
I'm the one that's determining.
Usually it's gonna be a coffeeor a drink date in the
beginning, like low, you know,low vibe, not high vibe, but

(22:28):
just low intensity, somethingthat's not you know a big deal.
So I I feel comfortable withthat.
I'm just planning on it.
Yeah, like okay, so that's howI'm showing, I'm showing up.
But she's showing updifferently.
Like, what's the communicationlike?
What happens?
Like, how do I deal with it?
Like, she doesn't want me topay.

SPEAKER_00 (22:49):
Yeah.
Again, I have like fivedifferent ways to take this.
Okay, so we're still at another40 minutes.
Okay, cool.
All right.
So, first thing I would startwith is if you're the one in
whoever is inviting the otherperson out, I think there's a
certain expectation that, youknow, man or woman, not that

(23:10):
that person that does thatextends the invitation pays for
everything necessarily, but Ithink the person inviting the
other person to join them isalready in the lead.
I think it makes sense thatthey're paying 50% or more of
what's going on.
I think that just makes sense.
I think I think that's a niceexpectation.
You know, if I was to invite youout to have a drink, it's weird

(23:34):
that I would expect you to payfor them.
You know, like that just doesthat to me, that that feels
backwards.
Yeah.
For me, if I'm inviting you outto a drink and I said, well, hey
man, I'm, you know, thanks forcoming.
I'm gonna treat for these.
For me, it feels like a naturalfollow-up to an invitation.
Um, I don't think it'snecessarily always expected.
It obviously depends on thecontext.
So, but I want to keep that inmind.

(23:54):
Remember that this isn'tentirely neutral.
When you extended theinvitation, you were inviting
her into an experience, you'releading that experience, paying
for some or all of thatexperience to me feels like a
natural extension.
So that's the first thing.
Second thing, okay, I think it'sgood for us to let ourselves off

(24:15):
the hook, particularly if wehave never seen this person in
person before, to let ourselvesoff the hook of the expectation
that we have to pay foreverything.
So, you know, if you're grabbingcoffee with somebody that you
met on a dating app, okay, it'scoffee, you know, they're
they're four bucks a cup,something like that.
You know, I mean, we're nottalking about a lot of money
here.
And that's another reason that Ilike low pressure, low

(24:38):
commitment, you know, firstmeetings, first encounters.
It's a vibe check.
It's not, it's, you know,sometimes it might turn into
date, but it the idea isn't tostart it out like it's a date
because you've never even met inperson.
Um, but even in thosesituations, I look at it as this
is a blind date, really, becauseI've never met this person in
person.

(24:58):
I have no obligation.
This is me letting myself offthe hook.
I have no obligation to pay fora stranger whose company I might
actually detest.
There was, yeah, there was, I'llgive you an example.
This was, I think, I don't know,a year or two ago.
I went on a first date, youknow, it was drinks, you know,
at a at a bar with this woman.
She was having a bad day, shewas having a bunch of things.

(25:20):
I had met the bartender oncethere like a month ago, month
and a half ago, and heremembered me.
The date was absolutely awful.
It was, it was the most un oneof the most unenjoyable,
hostile, caustic like exchangesI've ever had with a woman from
a dating app.
She wasn't attacking me, but shewas in such a crabby mood.
It was it was really quite bad.

(25:41):
And then, you know, and it itlasted less than an hour, you
know, and I'm glad that Iactually got there early and
just ordered my own drink.
But when when she left, youknow, I went over to the barder
and I said, I said, that was theyou know, worst first date ever
from online dating.
And he said, that was a firstdate.
I thought that was your ex-wife.

(26:03):
He thought that this woman waschewing me out.
He couldn't hear anything, hewas just seeing the the energy,
you know, from like 15, 20 feetaway.
And and and the thing, but thereason I bring up this story is
you don't know when you'remeeting somebody from online
what they're gonna be like.
Should I feel obligated to payfor that woman's drinks when she

(26:24):
is being, I mean, a veryunenjoyable, not even polite
person?
Heck no.
I I I I really don't I and I'mgonna let myself off the hook of
of the expectation that I haveto do this or I'm not having a
great time and she wants to havea second drink.
There is no obligation for me tocontinue to continue to stay

(26:46):
there, continue to entertain,and certainly not to pay for
this experience.

SPEAKER_02 (26:51):
Yeah, that's that's fair.
And I I think the what what youwere you just you described, if
if you're trying to create soour ultimate goal is this is
potentially somebody we want tospend a lot of time with.
Maybe depending on who you'redating, it could be a long-term

(27:11):
relationship or or gettingmarried or or whatever.
If you're wanting to create a anenvironment for what that's
going to be like, or forsomebody to be attracted to you
and your in your life, you'vegot to keep that in mind when
you are like your four or yourfirst date.

(27:31):
Like you're not gonna get asecond chance at a first
impression.
Okay, you've heard that linelots of lots of different times,
but you're setting a tone goingforward for you know for the
rest of this this relationship.
And so, like you said, if youare taking the lead, hopefully
you've taken the lead and you'veasked her, it'd be kind of like

(27:54):
kind of like inviting somebodyover to your house for a
barbecue and then asking themfor 10 bucks like for the
burgers and the barbecue and thefood and and and stuff, right?
Like that's ridiculous.
So you wouldn't do that withyour friends.
So I don't that that's shouldn'tbe the expectation.
But I do like what you what whatyou said, which is like if this
is just a terrible experienceand she's not showing up in in

(28:18):
the right way, then you you'renot obligated to to anything.
And the other thing I will say,and that I see this seems to be
more the case with onlinedating, there are some women out
there just looking to get a freedinner or get free drinks, or
just get over on somebody.
I've gotten good enough to weedthat out before we even like get

(28:42):
there, right?
Like on a date.
But just be aware that you'renot obligated.
Like you can simply say splitthe check, pay it, and leave if
you figured out that that's whatit is and it's not in alignment
with what your intentions arefor for dating, right?
If you're showing up and you'retruly genuinely doing all the

(29:03):
things we talk about on all ofour episodes and trying to
create an in an environment andexperience for her, and you can
if you figured out prettyquickly that she's there, she's
not ordering the white rice, youknow, she's ordering the the
ribeye steak, and and that it'syou know, that she's not
engaged, that she's not in.
She's looching.
You're not obligated, guys.

(29:24):
You are not obligated.
This is a day and age whereshe's not going to be destitute
if she has to pay her half ofthe bill.
And you know, this it's that ispart of showing up in the right
way.
So I I appreciate that that yousaid that because I don't know
that you know, I don't know thatI've always subscribed to that,

(29:46):
right?
Like there's lots of times whereI have it.

SPEAKER_00 (29:48):
Yeah, I and and it's hard, even though I know it and
believe it and remember it, it'sstill hard for me to do it
because I'm setting a boundarythere.
And if I feel like somebody'smooching off me, you know, that
they're real they're there justto order the most expensive
things and have a man pay forthem because it boosts their ego
or or who knows what.
And I realize that I'm beingtaken advantage of, that I'm

(30:09):
that somebody is draining me, myresources, my time, my
attention, and my money.
I'm going to set a boundarybecause those that surplus
inside of me is finite.
There's only so much of it.
And I don't want somebody elsethat's taking it selfishly to
take it from me.
I I don't.
So setting that boundary is, youknow, it's not going to feel

(30:30):
good because you're you'reyou're sort of chopping off the
connection, but you're reallyjust protecting yourself in that
sense.
So let me let me flip one.
Other let me flip though to theother side, you know, like back
to the positive spin on this.
So I believe that the rootsource of this, you know, the
guy treating, you know, the mantreating the woman on a first

(30:51):
date.
I believe that the root sort ofthe source of this is you need
to demonstrate as a man that youhave surplus.

SPEAKER_03 (30:59):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (31:00):
And you need to demonstrate that you have
surplus energy.
You need to demonstrate that youhave surplus attention, meaning
I'm listening to what you'retalking about.
I'm not, I'm not preoccupied bya million other things going on
at work or in my life.
I have this surplus of time andattention.
And I have a surplus offinancial resources.
I it's not a big deal.

(31:21):
This isn't, this isn't a strainon me to take you out for
whatever it is that we're doing.
Because the the truth is, as aman, if I'm barely making my
ends meet, or if I'm if I'munderwater and and I'm and I
really can't afford this, thatis a red flag, gentlemen.
If you can't afford, if youdon't have extra in your budget,

(31:43):
what you know, that's not goingto be attractive to a woman.
We, you know, the the the socialmedia world has convinced so
many men, you know, young andold, that if you're not a
multimillionaire, women don'twant you.
This is totally not true.
However, however, you do need tohave some surplus in your

(32:04):
finances to be able to spend andenjoy to create these
experiences that you're shared.
And paying for a woman on thedate simply because you can and
you have these resources, it'snot showing off.
It's not being ostentatious initself.
It can, it can turn that way ifif you're if all you're doing is
flashing cash around.

(32:25):
But demonstrating that it's nobig deal because you have extra
money to spend, women, thatthat's a signal to the woman
that this man is financiallyestablished, that he's
financially stable, that shedoesn't, that this man isn't
going to end up mooching off ofher at some point.

SPEAKER_02 (32:41):
Right.
Yeah, and and that that came uplast night with my daughter and
her, it was she had a friendthat that was here talking to
because her friend said hermother would say, Well, you need
to demonstrate that you'reyou're independent.
So you you need to to be able topay, or you need to offer to
pay, or you need to pay some ofthe time.

(33:03):
Which gets us into so you know,it gets us into that mentality,
right?
These are young ladies that aregetting this message around
that.
And I said, Well, so so myconversation was, well, so I I
am always going to pay becauseif I can't afford to pay, I
shouldn't be out on a date, isthe was the first point I I

(33:24):
made, which is what you justsaid, right?
Like I have resources to be ableto do this, and that's gonna
carry over into a relationshipand maybe a life together.
So that you're demonstratingsomething.
And and so I did I did make thatpoint.
But the the other point I I I Iwanted to bring up with them,
and and let's discuss this too,is this whole mindset of being

(33:47):
independent about this.
And I said, We're notindependent, we are not, we are
all uh dependent to some extenton women, and women are
dependent on men.
And this is just the design oflife and the world and the
differences between men andwomen, and this is a really good

(34:08):
thing that is in our uniquedesign of how we are.
So when you get that mentality,if you and and so then so then I
pivoted to the fact that it'sit's good to be able to say,
hey, well, let me pay.
And and this kind of gets intolike, you know, if this is this
a is this a soft offer?

(34:29):
Are they insisting?
Are they is it a hard stop whenthey when they when they when
they when they say that, or havethey maybe been coached to be
polite and say, hey, can Icontribute?
And then you say say no.
But let's talk about so thoseare two different things, right?
One is the fact that we areinterdependent, and that is a
good thing.
So this whole dependence,independence mindset makes me

(34:53):
freaking crazy.
The equality thing, and that'swhere it gets into what did I
describe it as the the thechivalry paradox, right?
Like they they want thisequality thing, but then they
want to be wrong.
Like, if we would just all cometo understand we are in in
interdependent upon each other,like what we're doing here is

(35:14):
trying to like sort through thata little bit to help each other
feel comfortable about it.
So take it from there.
That's a lot.

SPEAKER_00 (35:22):
Okay, so the independence question, super
important from a few angles.
So, personally, when I readStephen Covey's The Seven Habits
of Highly Affected People, itoutlined this for me in very,
very clear detail.
And I thought it was amazing.
And this is the overarchingtrajectory of the book.
We start out as dependents.
We're we're babies, we'rechildren, we're 100% dependent

(35:44):
on our parents.
And at a certain point, youknow, once we reach our teenage
years and young adult years,we're supposed to be
transitioning from dependent toindependent.
And so we have to, we have todevelop our independence as
humans.
We do have to.
And then once we've establishedthat we are self-sufficient, we

(36:05):
can provide for ourselves, we wehave the means of doing that,
then we turn towards each otherand we realize we we don't want
to live completely disconnectedand and we don't want to live
completely independent from eachother.
We want to have, we want to haveemerged into independence so
that we're no longer dependent.
We're no longer children.

(36:25):
We've but once you have reachedthat independent state, you
start looking for theopportunities to be
interdependent with others andwe start having a we sense, a
community.
The difference is when you'rewhen you're forming bonds and
connections with people that arethat both people are coming from
an independent mindset, thelikelihood of that being a

(36:45):
healthy attachment is really isis much higher.
When people that are coming toit that are still in a dependent
mindset, you know, they'repsychologically, they haven't
done their work, they're,they're still they're still in,
you know, some bad habits fromchildhood.
And then they're trying to, youknow, they go into pair bonding
as adults.
Well, that's not going to be themost healthy attachment because

(37:06):
they haven't established theirown independence.
So as a broad, as a broad senseof the word independence,
there's that.
Now, let me speak to women'sindependence from men.
For me, it is a very, very, verysimple situation.
Women have an incredible amountof independence and power, and

(37:27):
it's wrapped up in one word.
The word is no.
When a woman says no, sheexercises a hundred percent
independence.
And women should say no untilthey find something that they
really like.
Women should be saying no fairlyoften because a guy is not

(37:49):
bringing to the table whatthey're looking for.
Men, we draft the invitations,we slide them across the table.
All a woman has to do is say no.
No, thank you.
Not right now.
No, I'm I'm not really thatinterested.
That's all you have to say as awoman to assert your
independence.
Everything else, you don't needto demonstrate that you make
money on your own.

(38:10):
You don't need to, that's thatall is I said no.
So I'm going, I'm maintaining myseparation.
I will take care of myself.
I am no longer your concernbecause I simply said no.
As far as I'm concerned, that'sall a woman really needs to say
is no, in order for her to doit.
Now, backfill that.

(38:30):
Do I have the strength ofcharacter?
Do I have my independent jobwhere I can say no and it
doesn't stress me out as awoman?
Uh yeah, yeah, you do want toget your stuff, you know, your
ducks in order so that you'renot, you know, desperately, you
know, I don't know, leaning on aman for whatever it is.
Yes, of course, but that's justbackfilling.
All you have to do to assertyour independence as a woman is

(38:53):
to say no.
I I mean it's it's really thatsimple.

SPEAKER_02 (38:58):
Well, and but but but in doing that, we we all
just need to come to the tableaccepting the fact that, yeah,
okay, we do know that women canand are independent these days,
right?
Like it's not the that's justthat is how life is.
And so I think that what getswhat happens, and and so I I I

(39:21):
agree with you 100%.
Like the no just demonstratesthe independence, right?
That's perfect.
But the underlying uh assumptionhas to be uh everybody that
comes to the table just knowsthat we can each all be
independent.
Women are independent, they'reno longer, it's no longer a
society where they're thatthey're showing up on a date

(39:43):
looking for a husband becausethey need to have a husband, how
it was maybe 70 or 80 years withthat with that expectation.
So that's not happening anymore.
So if we just have theunderlying agreement that, yep,
I know that you probably couldbe independent, you could
probably pay for this yourself,you could probably you might
make money like okay, that's allgood.
We just we all know that.

(40:05):
That's great.
Like, if everybody's success,you don't have to prove it.
I don't have to like like let'sjust like why does that even
have to be out there anymore?

SPEAKER_00 (40:15):
Because yeah.
Because why?
Because we're playing out ofdifferent rule books.
What you just said would bebeautiful, but you're basically
saying if you know, if we couldall just agree on this one page
of the rule book being the same,this problem would go away.
I agree with you.
And Jude, when you're king ofthe world, I hope you do rewrite
that page of the rule book andyou let and everybody plays out

(40:37):
of it.
It would be simpler in a lot ofways if we did.
The problem is when we aresaying, why can't everyone just
read from the same page of thesame rule book?
That's asking the question thatleads to us getting butthurt.
For me, for me, I look at it asit's much simple, it's much
simpler than that, particularlyin a society where people have

(40:58):
different expectations anddifferent reasons.
All women have to say is no.
And the minute they do, that isa clean break.
They don't have to explainthemselves, they don't have to
justify it to anyone, they don'teven have to justify it to
themselves.
They can just say, I'm I'm I'mchoosing to say yes because I
want to, and I'm choosing to sayno because I don't want to.
That is full, pure independence.

(41:21):
It doesn't have to be morecomplicated than that.
Your reasons are your ownreasons.
And you can play out of whateverpage of the rule book that you
want.
I come to the table assumingthat if a woman wants to be
there, that a woman is therebecause she said yes and wants
to be there.
And I'm assuming that a womanknows at any point that she can

(41:41):
say no and walk away.
And if she doesn't know that,quite frankly, that's not my
fault.

SPEAKER_03 (41:47):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (41:47):
It's not my job to demonstrate that.
That is that is moving from thedependency of childhood and
attachment into adulthood.
Adults say no, thank you to thisand heck yes to this.
That's what adults do.
They make they they have thepower of distinction between
saying yes to something and noto something else.
That's a decision, that's allyou have to do to assert your

(42:10):
independence.

SPEAKER_02 (42:11):
Right.
Okay.
So maybe the mindset shift isyou can just know that, right?
Like you know she's independent,you know, no is no.
That's okay, that's great.
Perfect.
And if you are doing that,you're gonna be showing up in a
way that you're comfortable withthat, and you're comfortable
then with us being assertive inwanting to pay for coffee or

(42:36):
whatever.
And then in even if she is uhmaybe objecting, whether that is
a true objection or not a trueobjection or just being nice,
you can just feel comfortablewith like, hey, I I invited you,
I'd you know, I'd I'd like to toto pay for for coffee.

(42:57):
Or sometimes I'll say, like, I'dI'd love to be able to, I'd love
to pay for coffee uh thismorning.
Or are you comfortable with mepaying for for for coffee or or
something like that?
Usually I just do it, right?
And then you're creating thatexperience again.
Like you're trying to takethrough, and I think even if if
you do get a heart objection,like no, I would really feel

(43:19):
much comfortable.
That's even an opportunity, Ithink, to be able to be in your
masculine and and be able to saysomething like, Hey, that's
that's great, but I'd love foryou to be my guest.
Like, how about next time?
You you can get you can get thatthat that even gives you an even
more because some of this isthem testing, right?

(43:40):
Like testing to see where you'reat, what's your how are you
gonna feel like are you gonnashow up butt hurt?
Right?
Yeah, yeah.
Like if you're gonna getbutthurt when she says no.
No, I'm not gonna get butthurt,but I want to create and and and
here's the other thing, Dallas,and and maybe we can comment a
little bit that I don't knowthat women quite understand, but
men enjoy like taking women out,helping women, being providers,

(44:06):
protectors.
Like inherently, the majority ofmen find pleasure and desire to
do that for women.
I know that that's something forthat for me, lots of guys that I
talk to are like, and so whenI'm coming from a place like
like that, when I'm when I'm ona date with a woman or when I'm
dating women, it's like I'lljust say, like, I like doing

(44:29):
this.
This is enjoyable.
I it's fun to have a newexperience with you, or take you
somewhere you've never been, oror show you something that
you've never seen, or somethinglike that.
That's kind of neat and and andfun.
And that's where they respond tothat.

SPEAKER_00 (44:45):
Yeah, they do, they do.
And and we do enjoy it as men.
I mean, we feel like a boss, wefeel like a king when we're able
to treat, when we're able to doit.
And let's just point out, I feellike a king when I treat other
men.
I feel like a king when I uh payfor, you know, the people at the
table next to me at therestaurant.
You know, this is a good feelingthat we have.
It's not just in a romanticcontext.

(45:06):
Yes, okay, here's the trickypart in the negotiation in these
moments, because it is, it iskind of like an emotional, you
know, sort of thing, and peopleare coming to it from different
places.
So here's the here is, I think,probably the most important
thing for a man to have in mindwhen he wants to treat a woman.
And this is again appreciatingand having compassion for where

(45:28):
she's coming from, where wedon't feel this way as guys.
The the rule of reciprocity inhuman social interactions is
really, really, really strong.
Reciprocity is you did somethingfor me, I feel a sense of
obligation to do something foryou in return.
This man paid for something forme.

(45:49):
I'm going to feel an obligationinside of me to give something
back, or I'm going to feel thathe feels entitled to something
back from me.
I don't want to be pressuredinto doing anything I don't want
to do as a woman.
That right there, that's theheart of the conflict inside of
the woman.

(46:09):
So you have to understand.
And again, as a man, the womanis, you know, if flip the tables
for a minute.
I'm a man.
The woman's like, well, I reallywant to, you know, it's like,
let me pay for dinner orwhatever.
I'm like, okay, wonderful.
You know, thank you.
You know, and it's like in theback of my mind, oh, geez, I
hope she doesn't want me to haveto like hook up with her later.
You know, or I hope she's nothoping that I'm just gonna say
yes to another date.

(46:30):
I mean, these are not problemsthat men face.
Like this is, we're we're notworried about that pressure.
You know, it's like, oh, is shehoping that I'm gonna come home
later and like clean the gutterson her house?
It seems like a far-fetchedidea, you know, like it's that
that's just not the way thatnegotiation plays out.
So we're used to receiving thiswith no strings attached.

(46:51):
We are.
Women are not.
Women are used to guessing whatstrings may or may not be
attached.
So, step one as a guy is realizethis is what this woman is going
through, you know, to varyingdegrees of intensity.
Women are going to askthemselves this.
And first of all, remember thatwoman saying no, that is that is

(47:13):
her full independence.
You don't have toovercompensate.
She has to be able to say no.
That's treating her like anadult.
Now, knowing that there's goingto potentially be this push and
pull inside of her and thisstress based on reciprocity.
If you want to be as effectiveas possible, you want to you
want to make statements similarto what you just said in your

(47:33):
examples.
You want her to, you want todemonstrate and say, this is not
an exchange for something.
This is not a transaction.
I'm not trying to put you on thehook.
I mean, yes, I want you to havea good experience, and yes, I
want to see you again, but I'mnot trying to buy your
affection.
I'm not trying to pressure youin and to into anything.
And we don't have to say thosewords, but we can say other

(47:56):
words like what you did.
Like, I just enjoy doing this.
So you're saying you're doing itbecause I enjoy it.
Okay, well, now she knows whatyour motivation is.
Your motivation is you enjoydoing it.
Some other statements that I dois first of all, just downplay
it.
You know, like we're up at thecoffee shop, we're doing it.
You know, I know it's you know,uh a lot of times my my actual

(48:17):
strategy at the coffee shop iswe both show up together, I
order my coffee, and he saysanything else.
He says it to me.
And I said, Yeah, what would youlike?
And I'm just, we're justordering, it's transactional.
You know, and she says, youknow, she'll be like, oh, do you
want me to do it?
I was like, no, it's no bigdeal.
You know, and when I say no bigdeal, I am literally downplaying
this like it's no big deal.

(48:37):
So the idea that she owes mesomething is being diminished as
much as possible.
You know, if if we're likechecking out, I don't know, like
we're going on a picnic orsomething and we're at the cash
register and we're like, well,what do we do?
I was like, no, I got this.
It's no big deal.
And again, I'm I'm making itlike the money isn't a big deal.
That also demonstrates thesurplus of the financial

(48:58):
resources.
But again, inside of her, hesaid it's no big deal.
He's not making a big deal outof it.
You know, it's like we don'teven we don't have to worry
about splitting this.
This isn't this isn't that much.

SPEAKER_02 (49:10):
You know, I wanted to also add another thing that
in in in my mind, I try to dokind of when I know that this is
happening or this we're comingto this point.
And this might be maybe whenyou're dating a little more and
buying dinners or doingsomething like that.
Is I try to to maybe talk aboutthe experience and how much it's
been enjoyable, right?
Like to get the mind off ofsomething specific around money

(49:34):
and be like, wow, this wasreally a nice evening.
I loved dinner.
There was food.
We try like like talk aboutthat, and then a check comes in.
It's not like it's more about,hey, yeah, I'm you know, I'm
creating this experience, andthen if they go whatever, then
then it makes it less of a of alike a weird thing or an awkward
situation.
It's like, yeah, she's in herexperience.

(49:55):
If you've got her in thethinking about the experience,
then she's not thinking aboutoh, like the reciprocity thing,
right?
Like not thinking about, well,now what is he gonna want or or
whatever?
She's in that experience.
Yep.
And then you and then you'relike, yeah, it's no big deal.
That's fine.
I got it.
Like, whatever.
Exactly.
Yes.
But it it's kind of a timingthing.

(50:17):
You gotta you gotta thinkthrough it a little bit.
But really, if you're reallygood, which I'm not, but if
you're really good, thisexperience is all happening
really naturally.
Like you all you are having agood time, and then you know,
maybe the check comes andwhatever, and you're paying, and
then there's no conversation,right?
Like it's just part of theexperience.

SPEAKER_00 (50:36):
Yeah, yeah, that's the ideal place is to get into a
place where the you knowconversation is flowing, you
have a million tangents and somuch to talk about.
You're having such a great timethat you even forgot that you
know you have to pay for thisdinner because you're so swept
up in the moment.
You know, it gets there, she isso in her feminine that she
doesn't even notice that thewaiter dropped it off and you
put it and you know, or she wentto the bathroom and came back

(50:57):
and she's like, Oh, we have topay.
And it's like, no, I already gotthat.
And again, you're you're you'reyou're making it no big deal.
I love also when you're when inthe example you just gave, you
were focusing on the experience,and that's taking the pressure
off of her.
If you're talking about howbeautiful she is and you're
making the experience focused onher, and then you're paying for

(51:17):
something, then it seems againkind of transactional.

SPEAKER_03 (51:20):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (51:20):
You know, I'd, you know, if it if it's a meal or
something and the check has comein, they're like, you know,
would you like to split it?
I was like, you know, actually,I no, I'd let me get it.
You know, I'm you know, I'd I'mhaving a I'm having such a great
time, you know, I'd love to pay.
And when I just say I'm havingan enjoyable experience, notice
there that I'm talking about I'mif you want to look at it, if
you want to look at ittransactionally, I'm paying for

(51:42):
the experience that's alreadybeen had.
I'm not paying for an experienceI'm hoping to have after we
leave the restaurant.

SPEAKER_01 (51:49):
Great point.

SPEAKER_00 (51:50):
You know, and and when you said it that way,
that's again, that that releasessome of the tension and angst
and worry and concern inside ofher.
It puts her at ease, it causesher to relax.
And and then she's operatingfrom a place of her own desire.
She's saying yes because shewants to, she's not saying yes
out of reciprocity.

SPEAKER_02 (52:11):
And this is affect the mindset, right?
Like how you're showing up,which excuse me, I think is
important because here's anotherthing that d dads that that we
experience in you know, in isthe fear of how we how we look
getting back into the datingpool, right?

(52:32):
Like so went through a toughringer.
Like the house might be gone,half of our retirement is gone,
you know, we might feel broke,we might feel less than.
If you're showing up like that,guys, that is going to translate
into what's what's going on.
It's gonna become transactional,you're gonna be.
I think that's a great point.
Like you're talking about, oh,I'm paying for what am I paying

(52:55):
for something in the future, orI'm paying for the experience we
had.
If you're showing up, that thisis gonna be just an enjoyable
time, you're creating a a funtime.
You can even look at it from afrom a standpoint of being
entertained.
Like you're going out and you'rebeing entertained, you're
entertaining, and you have theopportunity to have this

(53:16):
beautiful woman with you inthis, you know, in this
experience, which who doesn'twant a beautiful woman to go
experience dinner or theater ora hike or like whatever else.
Yeah, like you're having thisexperience, and this kind of
goes back to Dr.
Glover's stuff of like you'rebaking that cake and and she's
the the icing on the cake,right?

(53:38):
We're not diminishing the factthat or or what she brings to
that.
But you know, if you've got thatmindset that you're creating
this experience, the experienceis for you, but you're in it,
you're it's augmented by thefact that you have her there and
with you, and hopefully she'sgonna be enjoyable.
That's gonna be a completely,completely different mindset

(53:59):
that you show up with.
You're gonna have to show upwith, but it's gonna be a
completely different experiencethat she's having and you're
having.
And it's gonna be you thisawkward stuff, the kind of these
conversations, all it's reallygonna fall by the wayside if you
are in the right mindset.

SPEAKER_00 (54:16):
Yeah, it is, it is.
You know, the the money enablesthe experience.
That's all it is.
The money just unlocks it.
And even when you talk aboutbigger ticket items, like I'm
gonna take my girlfriend toHawaii, you know, for a trip,
you know, and you're and you'reshelling out, you know, multiple
thousands of dollars.
Again, I'm, you know, I'mdemonstrating what my what my

(54:37):
surplus financial picture lookslike.
I'm demonstrating what I canafford.
It's not about the money, it'sabout the experience.
The money is there just to allowthe experience.
It's it's one of the componentsthat allows the experience to
take place.
Now, now I want to I want toswitch it around to something
that I'm sure is on your notes,even though we haven't really
brought it up, which is allowingthe woman to also contribute and

(55:00):
pay some of the time.

SPEAKER_02 (55:02):
Yeah, that's what we were gonna wrap up with is like,
okay, so then like we talkedabout the red flag of the woman
that shows up, or like, okay,that's real easy.

unknown (55:12):
Yep.

SPEAKER_02 (55:12):
That's real easy to figure out, right?
And and see.
But where so you're dating maybea couple dates, and then you
know, you want to, you know, thedynamics gotta shift like a
little bit because you'relooking maybe for somebody that
wants to be a partner in this,right?
So then how does that transitionand how do you work through

(55:34):
that?

SPEAKER_00 (55:34):
Okay, so I believe we brought this up in an episode
way back when.
There are basically twoorientations that a person can
have when they're dating.
They're either investingresources or they're extracting
resources.
Those resources can be sexualresources, they can be
attention, they can be time,they can be emotional

(55:54):
intelligence, they can be, youknow, handyman skills around the
house.
You know, all of these thingscome in.
Money is also one of thoseresources.
Right.
You know, the red flag womanthat's just looking for free
drinks and a free meal, she'slooking to extract resources,
financial resources, as well assome time and attention from a
man.
If that's what you're lookingfor in a woman, go ahead.

(56:16):
You know, if if that's if that'sthe game that you want to play.
Most healthy relationships thatreally have longevity to them
that are not, especially ifwell, if both people are
extracting resources, that'scalled transactional.
You know, man's extracting whathe wants, girls, you know,
woman's extracting what shewants, and that's transactional.
That can work.

(56:36):
That can work, yeah.
But let's but let's call a spadea spade.
You know, it's like, you know,yeah, I won't go into any famous
examples probably because Ican't remember the famous thing.
We all know this exists.
It's in a really young hotchair.
Absolutely.
Yeah, you know.
So, but I I personally, Ipersonally like and enjoy and

(56:58):
feel that there is morelongevity to a relationship in
which both people are looking toinvest resources.
So, as a man, I'm taking thelead.
I'm inviting, I'm investingthrough an invitation, I'm
investing by, you know, themcoming out, and I'm also
investing some financialresources to pay for these
experiences so that theexperience can happen.
That's why I'm really paying.

(57:19):
I'm not paying transactionallyto get something from her.
I'm paying so that we can behere enjoying whatever, you
know, this this comedy show.
Like I'm doing it so that we canenjoy the evening and have the
experience together.
Now, at a certain point, I haveto ask my, I have to ask myself,
is this woman also investinginto these experiences with me?

(57:44):
Right.
Now, do I expect her to invest50-50?
The whole point that kind ofkills the experience to be
counting like that.
You know, like I consider afriend of mine to be a good
friend when we don't know whopaid last, but it's dumb for us
to split the bill while we're atthe bar.
I paid this time, did you paylast time?
I don't know, I think you did,whatever.

(58:04):
It it doesn't matter.
The point is both of us couldpay and we're not keeping track,
and we're both investing in ourshared experience.
That's what a healthy dynamicfeels like.
Eventually, on the date, itshould be similar.
Both people are investingfinancially, where it's like,
okay, well, I paid for dinnerand I paid for this, and she's
like, Well, let me, you know,let me grab the drinks at the

(58:26):
comedy club this time, you know.
And and I think it's importantto see that demonstrated.
You know, I mean, I I'vedefinitely been on women, you
know, and it'll be four or fivedates, and these will be
multi-part dates where we didhave dinner and then went to a
show and then we went somewhereelse.
And she's saying thank you allover the place, but not once

(58:47):
ever offered to pay for even asmall thing.
And and for me, it became prettyclear that I felt like I'm the
only one investing in a certainside of this.
Maybe that woman is coming froma social background where women
don't ever pay, period, fullstop.
Maybe, maybe she does.

(59:08):
And I could ask about that, butall I know is the feeling that
I'm getting, it doesn't feelvery good to me.
And I'm and I'm not reallyenjoying it.
Or if the woman is reciprocatingin other ways, or maybe we have
a huge income discrepancy.
You know, I mean, if she's muchyounger than me, she's in
school, doesn't have a lot ofmoney, you know, and you know,

(59:31):
maybe she was recently divorcedand going back to get a nursing
degree, you know, and you know,and I'm sitting pretty, you
know, because I've had mysix-figure job for a while, my
expectations of her paying, it'slike, well, this just why she
hasn't have much money, youknow.
But the real thing is it's notabout the money, it's about the
experience.
And are both people investingresources, or do you feel like

(59:55):
they're actually extractingresources?
And as far as I'm concerned, yougotta trust your gut on that.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:00):
Yeah, I think that's a great, that's a that's a great
point because investing into theexperiences is what's building
the relationship, right?
Like each of these each of theseexperiences are what lead to the
the relationship and where therelationship is is going.

(01:00:20):
And so, and and you made I Ifeel like you hit it on the on
the head, which was are they andand research can be different.
It can be financial, it can beemotional, it can be just
effort, right?
Like uh well, did she did sheplan?
to to to bring a blanket orbring you know to to help you

(01:00:42):
make a part of the plan or pickout where you're going or
whatever it might be.
Like there are other ways inwhich and and this goes this
vice versa too right there likethere are other ways that you
can also be contributing to theexperiences that are not just
financial.
And that's really important tooespecially uh to to to to women

(01:01:04):
if you are wanting to have thislong-term relationship maybe
it's somebody that you want tointroduce to your kids to
eventually she's gonna she'sgoing to be investing these
resources whatever they might beit might not just be financial
but she's gonna be investingthese into each of these
experiences and she's gonnaunderstand and she's gonna I

(01:01:26):
feel like you're gonna know thatshe she values a dollar she she
knows that you're putting thisinto a woman that's in her
feminine and that is healthy isgoing to do a couple things
she's going to she's going toacknowledge number one right and
and she's going to appreciatenumber two right like usually
what uh if it if she's healthyand there is this dynamic and

(01:01:49):
there might be a disparity oflet's just say specifically
financial resources she's stillshe's still going to acknowledge
and she's going to appreciateand so those I think are two
things to look for when whenwhen you're doing this if she is
acknowledging and if she isappreciating because like your
your situation I've been I'vebeen on dates and I've dated

(01:02:10):
people where like I just knew Iwas going to be paying it was
just it was just the disparitybut she always acknowledged and
she always appreciated the thefact that that I was doing that.
And that's all I needed like Ididn't need because that was her
contribution to the experiencebecause I I want to feel that I
want to feel acknowledged I wantto feel appreciated and that's

(01:02:30):
all I needed like and and andthe whole experience was awesome
right because she was there shewas engaged she showed up
looking good like some of thethings that that I want from
from a woman on a on a date yeahI mean and and and the truth is
you know we're not paying on adate so that a woman will pay
for us on another day on anotherdate right that is that is so

(01:02:53):
not our motivation as a man.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:54):
Like we're we're paying and we're creating this
experience because we want thewoman to feel happy relaxed you
know lighthearted carefreeplayful and horny like that's
what we want the woman to feelin our company.
And we want her to feel that wayin our company the way she never
has with any other man ever inhistory or going forward.

(01:03:17):
That's that is what we want.
And again we're not it's notwe're not trying to buy it.
We're trying to step into anexperience when when she's with
us she just for some reasonfeels that way.
That's what we're shooting for.
And and and when you see it thatway, when you see the
experiences as enabling you knowstates and emotions inside of

(01:03:38):
us, the money really becomes notall that important.
And if the money still isimportant to you either one your
financial game is not on pointor two you have an attachment
and an importance to money thatis disproportionate and it's
gonna get in your way.
If you if if you as a guy arepreoccupied and counting in your
mind how much you've paid andhow much she's paid you have to

(01:04:01):
ask yourself like are you youknow it it's is is how important
is money to you is it is is thiskind of a distracting fight
figure for you and to your otherpoint I know you said it
beautifully I just want toreiterate it money can't be the
only resource that you'recontributing.
You need to be a good listener.
You need to bring good vibes tothe table if all you are is the

(01:04:25):
guy that pays for everything gofind a prostitute.
Like that's that's what aprostitute is is sex for money.
If all if all you want a womanto look for from you is money
and you don't want to have to beemotionally present.
You don't want to have to bepresent in other ways.
And I'm guessing a lot of thedads listening to this probably
this isn't a problem for thembecause they they have you know

(01:04:45):
gotten this place.
So I'm you know I'm thinking ofit from you know you know a
single man who's never beenmarried and doesn't have kids.
But there might be some dadslistening that this is an issue
it may have even been an issuethe issue you know one of the
issues in your marriage.
Money can't you don't want tolean on it.
Some people really they havethey grew up in environments
where money was a very toxicthing.

(01:05:06):
It was a tool that people usedto control people have leverage
you want to ask yourself whenyou're paying if you have to pay
that's kind of a red flag if youneed to be in charge if you have
these strict rigid rules aroundmoney in dating you want to take
a look in the mirror and askyourself where's that coming
from I just want to throw thosethose ideas out there.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:28):
Yeah yeah and so maybe maybe we can we will we've
covered a ton and a lot of goodstuff.
Maybe we can summarize the firstthing is your mindset right so
where you're and we talk everyepisode it comes down to this
guys you're gonna hear us talkabout this every single episode
it comes down to your mindsetand where you're at in in in

(01:05:50):
getting ready and preparingyourself to date.
So if your mindset is goodaround this you're not feeling
what I described earlier lack orthat you're broke or anything
like anything like that thenthat's good because you're gonna
show up in a different way.
She's gonna feel the vibesaround that.

(01:06:10):
So that is a a number one theother is what we what we also
talked about was that we justknow that women can be
independent these days and thatno is a full sentence and that's
okay that's her exerting herindependence and don't get
butthurt.
It's yeah it's okay.
That's good and it's not a badthing.
It actually can be an objectionthat you can overcome that

(01:06:33):
actually is going to probablylead to better things for you in
the future if you're notbutthurt around that.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:39):
Yeah and let her say no.
If she wants to split the billdemonstrate that you're a guy
that's flexible and say sure youknow let her buy independently
let her warm up and feelcomfortable to you at the rate
that she needs to if she needsto split the bill for the first
you know two or three datesthat's fine.
She needs that boundary in placein order for her to feel safe

(01:07:00):
and comfortable let her do it.
You know I mean she it you'redoing it because she said she
needs to in order to feel safethat's fine.
And you're like hey I'd love topay this time and if she's got
if she's got some issue withwell I don't want to be in a
place where I feel like beholdento a man or something, then then
you can say you know I'm I'm I'mjust having a good time.

(01:07:22):
You know the money isn't a bigdeal.
You know and does she does sherelax and let down that boundary
at a certain point and inviteand let you give her enjoyable
experiences or is she got herguards up really high and
doesn't really want to let a manshe doesn't want to make herself
that vulnerable or open to a mangiving her that kind of

(01:07:45):
experience.
And if that's the case, respectit.
Let her be that way and realizethat she's not giving you the
experience you want as a man.
You're not enjoying her companynearly as well as you could.
This is not a question of rightand wrong this isn't morals.
This isn't trying to go into herrule book and rewrite the page

(01:08:05):
to fit the way you think itshould be that's even worse than
being butthurt by somebody'spage being different than yours
is trying to change their rulebook.
Show them where you're comingfrom and if they're like and if
they don't like the sound of itlet it go and find somebody
that's like oh I love that youlike to pay I mean there are
plenty of women that still lovethe chivalry you know paradox

(01:08:27):
they they they love it when aman opens the door for them.
They love it when a man makesthe effort they they I can tell
you they all love it when youfix their water heater.
You know there isn't a singlewoman out there that's like oh
well no I want to fix my ownwater like who it's like when a
guy shows up and does that it'salways good.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:44):
Yeah right so so we can summarize that that last
point as creating the experiencelike be in there creating
experience and understand thatthe experience the collective
experiences are what then createthe relationship.
So if you can enables it if youcan if you've got to chunk it
down and think of it in in a ina male brain kind of way think

(01:09:09):
of it that way like theseexperiences and and I like what
you said also is check into whatyour experience is too because
that's in that's important.
If you're not having theexperience that that you want
then that's the sign.
And I like that that's the signlike okay well this she's she's
not contributing to theexperience how I want to

(01:09:30):
hopefully you're havingconversations and you're
communicating like we've talkedabout in some past episodes but
and that's fine too that's good.
This is all feedback right thisis all feedback and it helps you
cut the cord and be done with itbefore it becomes more difficult
or challenging or a problem etcand that's perfectly fine also
as well.
So Dallas this was awesomeawesome conversation it went no

(01:09:55):
nowhere how I anticipated asusual so I I love that I
appreciate your your feedbackwhere can the guys get in touch
with you and do you got do youhave any events coming up also?
I know you had one last week doyou have anything coming up here
soon?

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:09):
Not in the rest of 2025 holiday season's coming up
me and my collaborators are justkind of taking a break if you
yeah if you want to follow upI'm actually going to suggest
that you get on Jude's mailinglist because we are doing a
monthly QA dating discussion youknow where I'm on board and uh
your your guys are there.
We had an awesome discussionlast week I would say the first

(01:10:31):
place to start really is jump onJude's mailing list.
I'll let you give the theaddress for that.
For the guys that want to checkme out specifically uh jump over
to blackboxdating.com you canclick on the media tab and
that'll take you to all mysocial media channels and if you
like what you hear uh check outthe coaching program live
interactions every week and onthe higher levels you can get

(01:10:53):
into uh live in the field workwith me personally yeah and you
I got a lot of I got a lot ofgreat feedback from we had a lot
of guys on the call but we I gota lot of great feedback from
from guys on that that Q ⁇ Athat we had last week the next
one looks like I think we've gotcoming up December 18th so if
you go to the divorced advocatedot com and right on the home

(01:11:15):
page is just join our email listand you'll get you'll get a
reminder of everything that'sthat's going on when we're
having it or you can just go tothe calendar itself and then you
can link your calendar to ourcalendar and it'll just show up
in your calendar.

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:30):
So you can download each of those events that that
are coming up and it'll justthey'll just sync right to your
right to your calendar.
So we've got it set up that way.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:39):
And Jude are these the are these free events at the
moment for for the people on themailing list or yeah so well
some stuff is some stuff is freethis Q ⁇ A that we're doing ask
a dating coach you've beengracious enough to to to donate
your time and and we spend anhour going going through and
just kind of talking about atopic and then taking Dallas

(01:11:59):
took a ton of great questionsfrom from guys this this past
session and and we have reallyrobust conversation around
things which I know we we alwayshave a robust conversation when
we get guys involved it's evenmore it's even more fun to to go
back and forth and and and talkabout this stuff.
So so check it out yeah so theseones are these ones are are free

(01:12:21):
for for you guys but I knowwe're also gonna we're planning
some stuff in the new year inthe first quarter to to to do in
person and and live and uh maybego on some deeper dives as well.
So we got a lot of stuff plannedthat's the the point get
involved get in get involved inDallas's community get involved
with the dwarf advocatecommunity and you guys will be
covered awesome.

SPEAKER_00 (01:12:42):
Yeah you know I I don't know I I don't know
necessarily what what the guysare going to bring to the
discussions but I love that ourlast QA like if we were getting
shots out of left field you knowwhole different stuff I think I
think it's Chris Voss you knowright um what was it what was
the book yeah yeah never splitthe difference I think yeah you

(01:13:04):
know lots of good stuff comingup and and I I love this I
actually love I come alive underpressure so I love it when
people have you know justcompletely different points of
views and and differentexperiences that they're
bringing in it it makes for avery exciting call and and
they're free right now you knowI mean at some point we're
probably gonna have to becharging for it so get in there
now while you guys still can anduh get on yeah for sure yeah

(01:13:27):
well Dallas thank you this wasawesome gentlemen if you found
some value in it please sharefar and wide on social media
give us a star rating on your onthe platform you're listening or
even better give us some uhcomments we'd love to hear
comments so give us somecomments we will respond to all
of them and Dallas have a greatweek we'll chat next week you
too June have a happyThanksgiving