September 19, 2023 • 47 mins
Join us on a remarkable journey as we sit down with Mike - a dad with a unique and insightful take on fatherhood, masculinity, and life. We'll lift the lid on the joys, trials and transformative nature of being a dad, pulling apart the threads of parenting, partnership, and the evolving landscape of masculinity. Aiming to illuminate the diverse voices and experiences of fathers, we'll also delve into what makes each fatherhood journey unique and special.
The episode unfolds into a rich dialogue on family unity and the importance of adapting as our kids grow and change. Discover the art of maintaining a strong family unit, the power of open communication, and how to foster an environment devoid of judgement. Hear Mike voice his thoughts on marriage as a fifty-fifty proposition, and the importance of giving each other grace when one person cannot bring their full fifty percent.
In the later part of our chat, Mike breaks down his evolving roles as a father, husband and mentor. We'll explore how fatherhood shapes our understanding of masculinity, the dangers of toxic masculinity, and the necessity to be mindful of societal norms. And not forgetting the importance of family time, we'll delve into the lessons we impart to our children, drawing wisdom from our own childhood experiences. Brace yourself for a heartening, insightful exploration of the beauty and complexity of fatherhood - this is an episode you won't want to miss.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
And I enjoy this show .
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Hello and welcome to a special episode of Dad's
Getting Coffee Podcast.
I'm your host, justin, andtoday we have something a bit
different in store for you.
Instead of our usual banterwith my co-host, cory and Bobby,
we'll be diving into aone-on-one interview with an
extraordinary dad to gain theirunique and in-depth perspective
on fatherhood.
We believe that every fatherhas a story worth telling, and
(00:33):
this episode is dedicated togiving our guests the spotlight
to shine.
In this candid conversation,we'll explore the joys,
challenges and transformativepower of fatherhood from our
guest's perspective.
We'll delve into his personalinterpretation of fatherhood,
his experience navigating theever-evolving landscape of
masculinity and how being a dadhas shaped their life in
(00:56):
profound ways.
Our aim is to celebrate thediverse voices and experiences
of fathers, highlight the commonthreads that unite us, while
cherishing the uniqueperspectives that makes each
dad's journey truly special.
This intimate interview we hopeto inspire, educate and provide
valuable insights that resonatewith our listeners.
I want to express my deepestgratitude to our guest for
(01:20):
opening up and sharing his storywith us.
It takes courage, vulnerabilityto speak about fatherhood in
such a personal manner, andwe're honored to have him on the
show.
Without further ado, let's diveinto this captivating
conversation and discover thedepth and richness of our
guest's fatherhood experience.
Join me in welcoming ourincredible guest to the dad's
Getting Coffee podcast, who isno stranger to the show.
(01:43):
Welcome back to the show, mike.
It's a pleasure to have youhere.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Oh, thank you.
Thank you, and thank you forthe nice words.
I think you know how I feelabout these things.
I actually feel like I gain asmuch from these experiences as I
bring to the table, and so it'smuch like I look at life, right
?
It's an exchange of experiencesand perspectives and lessons
learned, both successes andfailures, right?
(02:07):
So thanks for having me backAppreciate it.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
So our long-time listener from season one might
remember you from our autismepisode that we released earlier
this year, but, as youmentioned in that episode, you
haven't been a dad for 15 years.
You've been a dad for almost 18years, so we can't wait to
spend some time talking aboutyour fatherhood journey.
Before we jump in, remind ourlisteners a little bit about
(02:32):
your family dynamic andstructure.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Sure, yeah, yeah.
So, as you mentioned, i have analmost 18-year-old daughter And
, yeah, she's Boy.
this is a whole new chapter,justin.
It's a whole new chapter AndI'm a work in progress on this
(02:55):
one.
So I'm probably learning asmuch as I go along in this stage
of fatherhood, as maybe mydaughter is learning from me,
but she's great.
I couldn't be prouder of her.
I couldn't be more excited andoptimistic about what she has
ahead of her And so, yeah, sothat's great.
And then I have a What is it now?
(03:17):
17-year-old No, i'm sorry,16-year-old son Yeah,
16-year-old son who has autism,and that's brought along with it
a whole different, special,unique perspective to my
fatherhood.
Also, couldn't be prouder ofhim.
In some ways, the challenges hehas overcome far exceed those
(03:39):
of not only my daughter but myown, my wife's, probably, more
than most people I know.
So couldn't be prouder of himand also equally as optimistic
and excited about what he'sgoing to accomplish in the
coming years.
And then, obviously, imentioned my wife.
My wife and I have been married.
Next year it'll be 25 years.
(04:00):
So, yeah, so we've beentogether almost 28, but we will
have been married for about 25years.
So, yes, that's my familydynamic.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Nice, nice.
So let's jump in Big question.
So fatherhood can meandifferent things to different
people, and it's alwaysinteresting to explore those
perspectives.
So, from your personalperspective, how do you define
fatherhood and what does it meanto you?
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Yeah, so that's a broad question.
You know, i think fatherhoodmuch like motherhood and maybe
parenthood, let's just call itthat is about providing for the
next generation that you bringinto the world, kind of setting
up a good, strong foundation sothat they can reach they meaning
(04:51):
your children right, whateverthe dynamic could be Their
fullest potential.
You know, I look at my rolethrough a lens of trying to set
a stage and set a foundation formy children so that they can
achieve probably the most thatthey possibly can, whether
that's happiness, impact in thepeople that they interact with,
(05:15):
what they contribute to theircommunity, society as a whole.
It's really just setting themup with that foundation And, in
a lot of ways, that foundationfrom the lessons I've learned
through life.
So you know, as my time as aparent has evolved, i've become
less focused on fatherhoodversus motherhood and more about
(05:37):
my role as a parent and fillingthe gaps or the voids that my
partner in this journey, my wife, can't fill right.
So it's kind of an ebb and flowand trying to find out okay,
what do you need me to providein this moment versus what's
best for you to provide to themin this moment.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense to view parenthood and
fatherhood through the lens ofpartnership, right?
Because I think about that toowith you.
know, i can't do it all and Ican't be at all, and nor should
I for my kids, and what I can'tdo or what I'm unable to do in
(06:15):
that moment my wife can pick upthe slack, and I hear you saying
that a lot about your partnertoo.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Yeah, it really is a partnership.
Regardless of you know, as I'vegone through life and I've
talked with people regardless ofthe family is it's the right
way to put this regardless ofthe family is still intact in
the standard way or not, it'salways a partnership And I think
it's an ebb and flow andfilling gaps right And filling
in and carrying different loadsthroughout different periods,
(06:42):
because I think experiences havea lot to do with the role of
parenthood, right?
So each parent will bring adifferent perspective to the
table And I think the moreenriched lesson that children
can receive, the better.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Yeah, as you think about non-traditional families,
even those families who arechildren are being raised by a
single parent or a grandparentor some other guardian.
there has to be a partnershipwith someone, because you can't
do it alone.
It's really difficult to doalone, and so, whether that
partner is, you know, a closefriend or even the teacher at
(07:19):
the school, there has to be somesort of partnership that you
form in order to make it throughthis, this kind of journey
called parenting.
I found that I have changed mydefinition of fatherhood
frequently over the last.
I've been a dad for five years.
So even in the last five years,you know, you learning, you, you
(07:41):
grow, you think like I, i thinkI thought I'm trying to raise
good kids.
And then, along the line, i waslike well, i'm trying to
actually not raise kids, i'mtrying to raise adults.
And then, at the then I saidwell, i'm actually not trying to
raise adults, i'm trying toraise citizens, global citizens.
So it evolves and I don't, youknow, in a year from now, two
years from now, i could bethinking something very
different.
but that's how I've evolved sofar in the first five years, and
(08:04):
I think fatherhood has a way ofshaping us as individuals,
often leading to transformativeexperiences.
You know, in your case, how hasbeing a father impacted your
life and maybe impacted yourpersonal goals.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Oh, wow, that's a big one.
So for me, i have to think aboutthe beginning, when we, my wife
and I, first thought aboutbecoming parents, and so it was
relatively early in our marriage, but it took a long time for us
to become parents.
(08:38):
We had, we had troubles, we hadstruggles in getting pregnant
the first time, so much so thatwe had tried for years, and we
were preparing to, to go theroute of help right Of
specialists.
And so going through thatprocess at that time, you know
(08:58):
it, it involved a series ofsteps and preparation and
consultation and meetings andplanning, and all this, this,
this, this work and pre-work,and right at the last stage,
before we were to start thecycle of our first attempt,
right to go through assistedpregnancy, the last step was,
(09:20):
you know, they said, well, wegot to give you a pregnancy test
.
We know.
You know this is not meant tofrustrate you, but it's just
meant to make sure, because thenext steps that we go through it
can't be done if you're alreadypregnant.
We said, no problem, no stress,we'll go through that test.
And lo and behold, we werepregnant.
And you know our first reactionwas like, wow, this really
(09:42):
works, we have to start RightWow.
You're really good at what youdo, right?
So I tell you that storybecause we were very prepared to
become parents of our firstchild, my daughter, and so we
had her and, like I don't know,eight months after we had my
(10:03):
daughter, we were pregnant againwith our son.
So we were like whoa, weweren't ready, right, right, we
were ready for one, we weresuper ready for one, we weren't
ready for two.
And so that kind of instantlychanged, i think, the longterm
vision of what we were going todo.
But that's okay, right, parent.
In some ways, parenting is aboutpivoting and adapting and
(10:26):
adjusting and saying, okay, soyou know, i had one plan.
This plan comes out How do youmake the adjustments and keep a
longer goal, a longer vision, inthe focus?
So I think having two childrenmay have changed my initial
outlook on what parenting wasgoing to look like.
(10:46):
You know, when my son wasdiagnosed on the spectrum, that
certainly changed our longtermplans of okay, what does
preparing him for the world looklike?
Right?
Certainly not a lesser than orgreater than experience, not a
different experience, right?
About what does it mean toprepare him for the world?
You talked before aboutpreparing citizens or preparing
(11:09):
adults, or you know so much ofparenting is preparing the next
generation for what they'regoing to interact with and
having a big impact.
That's a different preparationfor my son, and so that
certainly changed Changed time,commitment and roles that we
have to play and where our focusneeds to be and how long that
(11:31):
journey is going to be.
So, yeah, listen, you get thevery head of this episode You
talked about.
Every journey is unique, and Ithink that's the case regardless
of what changes in the plan youface when you go through
parenting.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
When you think about your career, you know where were
you in your career when youwere becoming a father, and how
did that change?
Were your aspirations did it?
Did it change where you wantedto go next?
Did it change where you want?
to live Those types of things.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Yeah, so I'm going to answer that, but I'm also going
to challenge you to give meyour take to, because in a lot
of ways, you and I've known eachother for a little while, and
please take this the right way.
I see some of my experience inyou, you know, but maybe a
couple of years.
You know, i won't date us, buta couple of years prior to me.
(12:28):
So, yeah, so what?
so when we got pregnant, I was,I was early into my
professional career and my wifeand I we had all the free spirit
in the world.
We were like, look, whatever ittakes to go this far as we can
go, as fast as we can go, andtake as many chances as we can,
(12:49):
we're up for we're game.
You know, my wife's a freespirit.
She's willing to take on newexperiences and fact prefers to
take on the new experience.
So we were like where do youwant us to move?
How quickly do you want us toget there?
How long we have to stay, orhow short do we have to stay?
No problem, Let's do it.
So, in a broad sense, becomingparents drastically changed that
(13:13):
priority and it became lessabout what we wanted and more
about what is best for ourfamily not just best for our
children, but best for ourfamily.
And I'm very particular aboutthe choice of words there,
because I caution people who askme.
Not everybody asks me, but Icaution people who ask me to be
(13:34):
careful about making everythingabout one aspect of your family.
You should think about thefamily as a whole, because a
happy and healthy family makesfor happy and healthy
individuals within it And you'vede-prioritized the individuals
and the family, cracks in thedamn conform, so to speak
(13:55):
metaphorically, and it can bedangerous.
At least that's just been myexperience, my observation.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
I would agree when you said that our journeys are
probably somewhat similar.
You know me, i've lived whenpeople say, like where are you
from?
Like you got time, like wheredo you get time?
Because I got to tell you,coast to coast, border to border
, international, we've beeneverywhere And I think where we
live now is probably where we'regoing to be, at least for the
(14:29):
short-term, long-term,short-term, long-term.
What was really interesting tome, what you just said, both in
what you just said and what yousaid previously in our last
episode and I would encourageour listeners to go back and
listen to our episode in seasonone you talked a lot about the
family unit and how much timeand effort you spend reinforcing
(14:53):
and making stronger that familyunit.
Can you talk about some of theintentional things that you do
or have done to make sure thatyou are a unit first?
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Yeah, yeah, so you're right.
I mean, that's everything.
If somebody were to say what doyou think the most important
thing about?
maybe life at this stage in thegame that you're in?
it is maintenance, constantmaintenance on strengthening the
family unit.
(15:27):
Everybody in my nuclear familyand my household family plays a
critical part in making thewhole engine go, including my
daughter, including my son.
So when you asked about what aresome of the things you have
done, you are doing, i'll alsosay, and I'm continuing to do
and I'm thinking about doing inthe future, because I just got a
(15:49):
lesson from somebody the otherday and it was impactful to me
and my wife and I were talkingabout whether we want to try and
adopt some version of it intoour routine.
But I'll get there in a second.
I would just say that we havevery candid, very real
conversations frequently as afamily about what our needs are,
(16:10):
how we're doing, how we'refeeling, and we make sure those
conversations, when they're had,they are free of judgment, free
of repercussion.
We taught my daughter, who isseventeen now, but from a very
early age, to find safe spacesand safe people and speak openly
(16:31):
about her feelings and heremotions and frustrations.
and happiness is joys and beingvulnerable, especially with us,
because we're the ones thathave her best interest at heart
at all times.
So you know, that's one way wewe've kind of given some
maintenance to, to, to thefamily unit the other is a
decision making right.
(16:52):
as we talked about career before, you know, we've made some from
some, some relatively bigdecisions about where we moved
and what we prioritize, what wehave made as non negotiables in
our life Around the strength ofthe family you know I'm in one.
now that you know, you're wellaware where I live now is pretty
(17:12):
much Are almost entirely drivenby the importance of creating a
by by large and wide network offamily for my son.
For those that are familiarwith children on the spectrum,
familiarity and regularity androutine are important right
there, important for safety andsense of comfort and a safe, a
(17:37):
sense of security for childrenon the spectrum.
and so I put a lot of work, mywife put a lot of work, my
daughter put a lot of work intogetting us to a place where we
have a broad and strong and bestkind of family network for my
son, and that's a commitmentthat we've all made to each
other and made as a family, andthat we're going to see it
(17:58):
through one way or another Tothe point about working forward.
so let me let me share with youand the listeners what I heard
the other day because I thinkit's worth, it's worth
considering for people, and Iheard it in the context of
somebody that was talking aboutpractices of strong marriages
and they said oftentimes peoplesay a marriage is a fifty, fifty
(18:20):
Proposition right thateverybody, that each member in
the marriage, needs to bringfifty percent to the table.
and they said but if you thinkabout that, that's unrealistic
And unsustainable.
some days each member of themarriage, of the marriage, may
not be able to bring a fullfifty percent to the table and
bad day at work.
they've gotten into a fight.
you know, presentation may notgo on the right way or
(18:44):
deliverable may not havehappened.
they got some tough feedback Andyou're gonna come home was just
say, right here from home, fromthe job, and you're just not
gonna be able to bring fiftypercent to the table.
But if the other member of thatmarriage is expecting that
fifty percent and they'rebringing their fifty percent,
but you're only bringing twentyfive percent, well, you're at
seventy five percent and that'sgonna have.
(19:06):
that's gonna have impact,that's gonna have repercussions
to it.
And so the person that I heardthis from was saying a best
practice might be having openand honest conversations when
you come back together at theend of the day or whatever.
it's a so yeah.
And if you're not at a fifty,being being open about that and
(19:27):
saying so I'm, i'm at aboutforty right now.
You know it's not was anhorrible day, but I'm just, i'm
not there, i don't, i don't knowthat I can bring my share to
the, to the, to the table, andit's just me being real.
And that gives the chance forthe other person to say, ok, i
can make that up, don't worry, ican make up the time that you
can't.
I can bring sixty to the table,whether that's whether that's
helping, helping out around thehouse with chores more, helping
(19:49):
with the kids more, or, you know, kind of Shouldering a little
bit of a heavier load.
Or if the other member says youknow what, look, i had a bad
day to and I'm not at fiftyeither.
You're at forty, i'm at forty.
We're gonna be short.
Having that other conversationis saying how do we give each
other grace, how do we becareful in this situation that
we don't Slip and make some,make some mistakes that we don't
(20:13):
we're gonna regret down theroad?
we know we're not coming to thetable with a full one hundred.
So let's, let's think thisthrough, what's come up with a
strategy, right, and let's becognizant of that, that we're
both.
We're both not at our at ourtop level or even at our
expected level.
When I heard that, i was like,well, that's pretty, that's
pretty insightful and it'spretty true.
(20:34):
I mean, there are days you comehome and you're like I still
have it.
I don't have it.
I really want to bring it, butI don't have it.
So where are you at?
can you make up for me?
and if you can, okay, let'stalk about what strategies do we
want to be at right now?
what strategy you want to do sothat a we don't, we don't go to
a place where we regret witheach other and be you, create an
environment for that familyunit.
(20:56):
So I'm bringing it all the wayback to the circle, to your
point about me.
It's about the unit.
We don't.
We don't we don't inadvertentlycause damage or harm to the
unit As as a parent and team.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
You're, you're just bringing what we call brood
wisdom on, dad.
That was that.
That hit me.
Like I was.
I was like I just had this lastnight.
Like okay, so my wife and I,typically at bedtime bath time
one of us take my daughter andone of us take my sons And we do
(21:30):
bath book, teeth, brushing, bed.
That's what our, our situationis.
And so I had my daughter and Idid my part.
And then I came back and I wassitting on the couch and she was
like, could you Put the boys tobed?
and I was like that that is notmy job, your job is to do this
(21:50):
and your job is to do that.
Like what do you mean?
what's going on?
and she's like I'm just not,it's not feeling it.
And I was like, but it isexactly what you said just when
you, when you, when you positionit that way in the sense that
like, look, i don't have ittoday, i had whatever happened.
I don't have it today and I needyou to pick up the slack, and
(22:11):
if I feel like, if we would haveset the expectation that we
that's how we talk to each otherwhen we just don't have it or
when I need a little bit morefrom you in XYZ or whatever it
just could come up, come up inany time point of the day, right
, much more.
I would have given much moregrace if we would have set those
norms as a unit, that whenyou're not all the way there, i
(22:35):
just need you to tell me here'show.
I need you to tell me It's.
What's interesting is we dothat in probably every other
part of our life except for that.
And it just really hit me thatyou know, if you set those
communication preferences andyou say here's how we're going
to talk about when we're not allthe way there, because, to your
point, you can't always be atyou would, whatever version of
(22:56):
your 100% needs to be, you can'talways be there.
That's unsustainable because ofso much that happens in our
lives, right?
so who?
Speaker 1 (23:04):
was Wisdom.
so if you think about howimportant that is to the
marriage, but then exponentiallyhow important that is to the
family, and kids who are, youknow, in a large way looking to
you saying what, where's thewhere's 100%?
I got used to the 100%.
I want 100%, right, not bringit.
So what's going on?
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Right, like that was me.
I was like my job is done, i'msitting on this couch finished,
so I want to change gears.
And this is a.
This is a heavy one, this is aone.
So I want to talk a little bitabout masculinity and how it's
often intertwined withfatherhood.
(23:48):
I think it can be fascinatingto explore how those concepts
intersect.
How is your experience as afather influence your
understanding of masculinity andshaped your perspective on
manhood?
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Hmm, that is a tough one.
It's a tough one because in abroad sense, i listen, i think
fatherhood is a constantevolution and I think that I
particular and my work inprogress still even with a 17
year old daughter and you know,traditionally, you know, the
(24:23):
thought process is when a childor a kid reaches 18, they get to
adulthood and your job is over,although we all know that job
is an over.
You know that there are lessons, that you are far beyond your
18th birthday.
But fatherhood and masculinityand what role I play as a father
(24:44):
versus maybe my wife's mother,has exponentially evolved over
the last 18 years and I havebecome less rooted in the
historical or traditional viewsof masculinity and more rooted
in what things I bring to thetable To the table that are
(25:07):
maybe unique to me and whatthings my wife brings to the
table that are unique to her,but also making sure that our
children, and more particularlymy daughter, because she's more
aware or cognizant of differentroles gender roles, if you will,
(25:28):
or how that plays into societyI'm more rooted in passing on
lessons that I've learned andshowing and giving exposure and
perspective to my daughter thatmakes her more enriched as she
interacts out in society.
So let me explain a little bitmore what I mean by that.
(25:51):
One of the base, core,fundamental values that I try
and bring to my kids is that oneof the secrets to life is to
constantly have gain, learn andexpand your perspective on any
situation.
The world is about differentperspectives and different
viewpoints, and those are alldriven by different experiences,
(26:13):
different challenges, differentsuccesses and different
failures.
The more you can be sensitive tothe fact that individuals and
people bring a vast array ofdifferent perspectives to every
situation, the better you'regoing to be equipped at not only
surviving in a moment, butthriving in a moment, because
you know that listen,everybody's bringing a different
(26:35):
perspective, not right, notwrong, just different.
And so understanding that setsyou up for success at achieving
whatever it is, the end outcomeyou're looking for.
So when you think about that,my wife and I bring different
strengths to the table, andthey're not rooted, in my mind,
in masculinity or femininity Youknow what I mean But more just
(26:58):
understanding what roles you canplay in a scenario, being
self-confident, right in everyscenario, because you come with
an enriched sort of perspectiveand understanding of what other
people may be representing inthere.
So it's tough.
I don't know where I'm at rightnow in this stage in my life or
(27:21):
my character, but masculinityis less important to me than
just my perspective and maybethe lessons I've learned.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Yeah, i continue to involve my view on masculinity.
I think I was in a fraternity incollege and had the opportunity
to talk about what masculinitywhen looks like, when it becomes
too toxic.
I went to a leadershipdevelopment forum and we talked
(27:51):
about toxic masculinity and whatdoes that mean and how do you
navigate that from a fraternityexperience And that can become
dangerous in a fraternityenvironment if there's too much
toxic masculinity in anenvironment, and I've taken some
of those learnings with me intofatherhood and how maybe an
(28:11):
overbearing or an outdated viewof masculinity can really impact
a family unit or even apartnership with your spouse.
I do find myself in a bit of avulnerable moment.
I do find myself in stilltrying to navigate what society
(28:35):
believes masculinity should looklike and then what I believe
the fluidity of that should beand could be.
At the same time, i find myselfadopting certain societal norms
and I'll give you an example.
So I was talking to my wifeabout something when it comes to
my sons and I said somethingvery different when it came to
(28:57):
my daughter and I was like, well, there's a protectionism and
she called me out on it.
Right, she was not inclusive andshe was like well, why would
you treat her any different?
And I was like I can't explainto you why I would treat her
different.
It just feels like I should andI know that I shouldn't, but
(29:21):
there's a pull in me that feelslike I should and I can't
explain it and I know Ishouldn't and I'll do better.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
That's the only way that.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
I can explain that to you right, because the societal
pools on what a man and afather should be have been so
ingrained in boys and men'sheads for so long it's really
really hard to let go of.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
I hear you.
I hear you.
I'm in that place right now too, especially because I spend so
much time passing on lessons tomy daughter, and I looked at it
through a lens of for a longtime, what can I bring to the
table for her as a young woman?
And then I realized itshouldn't matter what she is,
(30:12):
woman or young woman or youngman.
I have lessons to bring to thetable one way or another.
And I think even more valuableare maybe the lessons I can
bring to her that my wife maynot be equipped to bring,
regardless of whether they'retied to gender or not.
I also your comment resonates tome about societal norms and how
(30:36):
they can become toxic, and Iget very concerned about what
impact that could have onchildren, whether minor or
anybody, if you try and fitespecially impressionable young
minds into a box that they maynot be ready to go into or
comfortable going into or wantto go into.
I've always been what I like tothink of as open minded
(30:59):
throughout my life about thevast differences of life
experiences that people have outthere, but I've been
particularly sensitive aboutbeing careful of pushing people
into pre-prescribed modes ofwhat they should be right,
whether it's masculine orfeminine, career choices,
(31:22):
personality traits, leadershipstyles.
It's a slippery slope.
We know this when we try andattest or we guard against the
testing attributes to people ofdifferent races or religions,
but for some reason we don'ttranslate that to gender, and
it's equally as dangerous to dothat to gender.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
Right.
Our own upbringing can shapeour approach to fatherhood in
really profound ways and so,reflecting on your own childhood
experiences.
How have they played a role inshaping your perspective on
fatherhood?
Are there any aspects you'veintentionally carried forward or
sought to change based on thoseexperiences?
Speaker 1 (32:09):
Yes.
So I think about theintentionality my parents
brought to my childhood inexposing me very early, at a
very early age, to the realitiesof the world, regardless of how
controversial they could havebeen or potentially sensitive
(32:33):
they could have been.
My parents both of them feltvery strongly in exposing me to
the diversity of opinions, thediversity of issues out there
sort of the worldly, views ofdifferent countries, communities
, norm, societal norms out there, and And and and, setting me up
(32:57):
with a lens not of right orwrong, good or bad, but just
different, right different andwhy it's been different and why
it evolved into that way.
So much so that they were veryparticular about not even
wanting to impart upon me theirown Societal views, political
(33:23):
views, religious views, thosetypes of things.
They very much wanted to giveme all Of the perspectives, all
of the building blocks, all ofthe ingredients, and said at
some point you're gonna have tomake a decision for yourself And
we just want to give you asmuch ammunition, so to speak, to
make an informed decision foryou and for what's right for you
(33:44):
.
I have absolutely carried thatforward with my children.
I couldn't.
It's probably the Thing I ammost thankful to my parents for
Preparing my life with that sortof perspective.
It's tough because I, you know,i also.
I lost my father at, not whileI was a child, it was while, i
(34:06):
was a young adult, but I losthim.
I thought before I got some ofthe most valuable lessons That I
was that I was looking forwardto.
So that impacted me as well,because I I view the time with
my daughter in particular Asvaluable and not, you know,
don't take tomorrow for granted,because you don't know that
(34:28):
you'll always be able to bethere to pass along The lessons.
So there's no time like thepresent to pass along as much as
you possibly can.
So when you, when you look atlife of you like that, you tend
to say, well, i don't want towaste time on Is this the right
moment in her life to share thelesson with her?
you share it with her and then,if she struggles Understanding
(34:50):
it or coping, you help herthrough understanding and coping
with it.
You don't you don't waste theopportunity to share the lesson.
At 17, my daughter knows most,almost most things that that I'm
going through in my life right,whether it's professionally or
you know, decisions that we'remaking as a family or what have
you.
Because I want her to gain theExperience from that.
(35:13):
It's very early on in life Iwas taught one of the one of the
only ways to cheat Experiences,from learning from the lessons
of from others, right.
So the way you can overcome ageor overcome tenure is just by
being a consummate student ofother people's failures and
successes.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
Hmm.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
So yeah, so so yeah.
I mean, it's a great question.
You're right, we are formed bythe upbringing we have, and that
certainly was maybe thestrongest lesson my parents
taught me.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
Yeah, i am.
I had the privilege of growingup with six grandparents, so two
on each side and agreat-grandparent on each side,
and I resonate a lot with kindof the The gone too soon or did
I make the most of the time?
(36:04):
All six, actually, of mygrandparents have now have now
passed and It's tough because Ido think that there's wisdom
that I missed out on because weget wrapped up in our own
whatever and We miss out onasking some of the critical
questions.
(36:24):
And you know I look back fondlyon Conversations I did have and
lessons I did learn.
I think you always are like,well, what if I would have had X
amount more time, right?
So I think that's always alittle bit challenging.
You know, one of the thingsthat I joked at one of my
grandparents It joked in in ingreat truth and great fun was I
(36:48):
learned a lot about dinner Frommy grandparents because my
grandparents on my dad's side Wewould sit down as a family at
the table every night and wewould have dinner and we would
talk.
The TV would not be on, we wouldbe.
We didn't have phones at thatpoint or any any phone We're
looking at, to be honest and wewould talk, and we do that now
(37:09):
with my, with my family.
We sit down and we haveconversations and even if one of
us slips and starts to scrollLike up no phones at the table
Well, we, we talk about our dayand that's a, that's an
intentional part of fatherhoodthat I've brought forward and
sought to continue, because Ithink that You know, dinner and
(37:29):
having a good meal and havinggood conversation is is a really
important and impactful Way toend the day as a, as a family,
regardless of what, what else isgoing on.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Yeah, yeah, that's dinner.
You talked about that and youknow, i was listening to your
story while it seemed, the sametime reminiscing about what
dinners were like when I I wasComing up and, and it's
strangely enough, we do theexact same thing now.
We did that, so it's less.
It's less to pulse, and let'ssay so, we, when we eat dinner,
(38:02):
when I was coming up, we alwayssat down and watched TV, and the
show that we watched was thesame every single night, five
days a week, 52 weeks a year.
Every day, we sat down andwatched Jeopardy.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
I knew you're gonna say Jeopardy.
Knew you're gonna say Jeopardy,i Knew it.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
You know, i would say from you know the third grade.
I would sit there and you knowmy parents would sit there,
rattle off answers, rattle offanswers and and I remember it
Clearly because my father wouldwork in the city, he'd come home
on the train.
Either my mother would go pickthem up Or when I started to
drive, i would go pick them up.
It was like a rush becausewe're like oh, it's like seven,
(38:47):
you know, seven, twenty seven.
We have to get quick, quicklyget back for for Jeopardy, maybe
what.
We would watch him for like tenyears.
I would get no answers right,like I was.
Like, you know, i was waitingfor the sports category, so
maybe I'll be able to get somesports questions right.
And then it was like you know,sports from the 40s, in the 50s,
i'm like, well, i don't knowthat.
So, so, so.
But then, slowly but surely,i'd start to get like one
(39:12):
question right out of the wholeshow And I got one right tonight
, awesome, and I get like fiveright and then I would be
getting to the point where I dopretty good in single Jeopardy,
double Jeopardy.
I was like, okay, now That's it.
I'm not sure.
I'm first round, only Rightright so the point where, then,
i was holding my own and, justwithout even kind of knowing it,
(39:33):
we did the same thing with mydaughter, and she did the exact
same thing from a little kid.
She's sit there and and I'llnever forget her She would
answer almost everything withCanada.
I don't know why she was likeCanada.
Like no, not everything's yeah,but then finally she got like
(39:57):
one right and she got five rightand To this day she's 17 years
old.
There is no way I can beat herat all.
I mean, she's just rattling offstuff and she's like, oh yeah,
that's this, oh yeah, that'sthat.
Oh yeah, this is it on mycolleague, she is a whiskey, so,
um, you know, i it's funny asas, as funny as the story is.
(40:18):
I also think that helped in kindof having a worldly view on
things, because you know thatthe topics and you know Jeopardy
are all over the board.
I mean, you know Europeanhistory and you know Slavic
languages and, right, 6thcentury Egypt, so it's all over
the place.
So you have to, you have tokind of come to every episode.
(40:39):
When I was a kid, like I got tohave a little bit of knowledge
and Everything.
So let me just, you know, letme pick up stuff and I remember
starting to think this might bea question on jeopardy at some
point.
So let me, let me store thataway, store that away.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
So I have one more question for you.
So you have shared with me thatyou typically have an annual
daddy daughter Trip, and so yourecently went to Washington DC.
Can you tell our listeners youknow where that concept came
from and what it meant, what ithas meant to you over the years?
Speaker 1 (41:13):
Yeah, so the concept of daddy daughter trips.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
Yeah, when did you start?
Speaker 1 (41:19):
Really young.
She was probably I don't know,i don't know maybe seven or
eight years old, and it was bornout of, maybe, a different
concern at the time.
At the time we were in thebeginning stages of learning
what it meant to take care of myson and what that dynamic was
going to mean, and my wife and Iwere becoming increasingly
(41:40):
concerned that we didn't want mydaughter to suffer from an
attention standpoint and aprioritization standpoint.
You know, oftentimes with myson he has to sort of be I don't
want to say the center ofattention, but you know all eyes
are on him for reasons, and sowe wanted to make sure that she
had time where she was thecenter of attention.
And at that stage traveling formy son was hard, and
(42:06):
particularly somebody watchinghim was hard.
And so we started to questionmaybe we needed to break up
trips with my daughter of onewith my wife and one with my
myself.
And to your point before aboutpre-prescribed roles of fathers,
you know I kind of approachedit from well, i need to teach
her what it means.
(42:27):
You know, what manhood and menin her life should look like,
what she should come to expect,what she should expect from
others And so that you know,listen, full transparency.
I still think that it's avaluable lesson to learn, but it
was a little bit prescribed,right.
It was a little bit societallyprescribed and holding.
(42:47):
So it kind of started fromthere And the trips were
nonspecific about where we weregoing and what we were getting
out of the trip.
It was more about just the time,the quality time.
It evolved to trips that wereimpactful because of things that
(43:07):
we both valued and werepassionate about.
So you mentioned, the last tripwas to DC And my daughter,
while educationally she wants togo into medicine, she has
become very passionate andcurious and knowledgeable about,
you know, politics and civicsand the role the government
(43:30):
plays and the role that peopleplay in government And so on
that and history.
She's very, very curious abouthistory And so our trips to DC
became really treasured timesfor us because of just how much
there is to absorb there.
Not only just absorb, butexperience, you know, unique
(43:52):
experiences together.
This last trip we went to, wewent for our second time to the
museum, a National Museum ofAfrican American History, and we
spent, i don't know, five hoursin the museum the first time we
went And this time we spentanother five hours and we didn't
even get to everything, andit's not so much what you see
(44:15):
there, but it's then theconversations that ensue after
experiencing it together inperspectives that get shared
together.
So it's funny we go to DC andwe spend time in museums and we
go to sites, monuments and lookat things, but the most valuable
time on that trip is theconversations we have at the end
(44:35):
of the day, when we're sittingat dinner and talking about what
we saw, what we felt, what wethought and what we're nervous
about, why we think thingshappened and where we see things
happening again or don't seethings happening again, and what
it's going to take.
Yeah, you mentioned beforeabout not wasting opportunities.
It's those times that I cherishthe most.
Speaker 2 (44:55):
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome.
Thank you for sharing and thankyou for being with us, and so
that concludes our justincredible interview with you,
mike, wow, thank you Listen.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
this is great conversation.
I think it's a conversation.
It's great back and forth andI'm learning as much from you as
hopefully I'm bringing to David.
Hopefully I brought a lot tothe table for you and for the
listeners, and I know I took alot away from this discussion.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
You certainly did and I want to extend a heartfelt
thank you for sharing yourvaluable insights, experiences
and perspectives with us todayYour journey as a father.
We're grateful to have had thisopportunity to learn from you.
There's some nuggets that Itook and hopefully our listeners
did too.
I have no doubt that you'll beback on the panel with the other
fellas guys soon To ourlisteners.
(45:46):
Thank you for joining us onthis special episode of Dad's
Getting Coffee podcast.
We hope you enjoyed thisintimate and, as Mike just
mentioned, in-depth conversation, delving into the unique
perspectives of us both.
We wanted to try somethingdifferent this episode and we
hope that it resonated with you.
We'll be back in your podcastspeed soon with more episodes of
(46:09):
Dad's Getting Coffee, where wecontinue to celebrate the
diverse experiences and variousstories of fatherhood.
We have an incredible lineup ofguests for this season and
exciting topics on the horizon,So make sure you stay tuned.
Of course, bobby and Corey willbe back for brewed wisdom and
hot takes, as always.
If you enjoyed this episode,please share it with your
(46:29):
friends, family, fellow andaspiring dads.
Your support means the world tous and it helps us reach a
wider audience of individualswho can benefit from the wisdom
and insights and laugh share onthis podcast.
Once again, a special thank youto our guest, mike, for his
openness and willingness toshare his fatherhood journey
with us, and thank you to ourlisteners for being part of the
(46:51):
Dad's Getting Coffee community.
Remember you're not alone inthis incredible journey called
fatherhood.
Until next time, keep brewingmeaningful moments, cherishing
your role as a dad and savoringevery sip of life.
We'll see you soon on the nextepisode of Dad's Getting Coffee
podcast.
Dad's Getting Coffee.
And I enjoy this show .
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Hello and welcome to a special episode of Dad's
Getting Coffee Podcast.
I'm your host, justin, andtoday we have something a bit
different in store for you.
Instead of our usual banterwith my co-host, cory and Bobby,
we'll be diving into aone-on-one interview with an
extraordinary dad to gain theirunique and in-depth perspective
on fatherhood.
We believe that every fatherhas a story worth telling, and
(00:33):
this episode is dedicated togiving our guests the spotlight
to shine.
In this candid conversation,we'll explore the joys,
challenges and transformativepower of fatherhood from our
guest's perspective.
We'll delve into his personalinterpretation of fatherhood,
his experience navigating theever-evolving landscape of
masculinity and how being a dadhas shaped their life in
(00:56):
profound ways.
Our aim is to celebrate thediverse voices and experiences
of fathers, highlight the commonthreads that unite us, while
cherishing the uniqueperspectives that makes each
dad's journey truly special.
This intimate interview we hopeto inspire, educate and provide
valuable insights that resonatewith our listeners.
I want to express my deepestgratitude to our guest for
(01:20):
opening up and sharing his storywith us.
It takes courage, vulnerabilityto speak about fatherhood in
such a personal manner, andwe're honored to have him on the
show.
Without further ado, let's diveinto this captivating
conversation and discover thedepth and richness of our
guest's fatherhood experience.
Join me in welcoming ourincredible guest to the dad's
Getting Coffee podcast, who isno stranger to the show.
(01:43):
Welcome back to the show, mike.
It's a pleasure to have youhere.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Oh, thank you.
Thank you, and thank you forthe nice words.
I think you know how I feelabout these things.
I actually feel like I gain asmuch from these experiences as I
bring to the table, and so it'smuch like I look at life, right
?
It's an exchange of experiencesand perspectives and lessons
learned, both successes andfailures, right?
(02:07):
So thanks for having me backAppreciate it.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
So our long-time listener from season one might
remember you from our autismepisode that we released earlier
this year, but, as youmentioned in that episode, you
haven't been a dad for 15 years.
You've been a dad for almost 18years, so we can't wait to
spend some time talking aboutyour fatherhood journey.
Before we jump in, remind ourlisteners a little bit about
(02:32):
your family dynamic andstructure.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Sure, yeah, yeah.
So, as you mentioned, i have analmost 18-year-old daughter And
, yeah, she's Boy.
this is a whole new chapter,justin.
It's a whole new chapter AndI'm a work in progress on this
(02:55):
one.
So I'm probably learning asmuch as I go along in this stage
of fatherhood, as maybe mydaughter is learning from me,
but she's great.
I couldn't be prouder of her.
I couldn't be more excited andoptimistic about what she has
ahead of her And so, yeah, sothat's great.
And then I have a What is it now?
(03:17):
17-year-old No, i'm sorry,16-year-old son Yeah,
16-year-old son who has autism,and that's brought along with it
a whole different, special,unique perspective to my
fatherhood.
Also, couldn't be prouder ofhim.
In some ways, the challenges hehas overcome far exceed those
(03:39):
of not only my daughter but myown, my wife's, probably, more
than most people I know.
So couldn't be prouder of himand also equally as optimistic
and excited about what he'sgoing to accomplish in the
coming years.
And then, obviously, imentioned my wife.
My wife and I have been married.
Next year it'll be 25 years.
(04:00):
So, yeah, so we've beentogether almost 28, but we will
have been married for about 25years.
So, yes, that's my familydynamic.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Nice, nice.
So let's jump in Big question.
So fatherhood can meandifferent things to different
people, and it's alwaysinteresting to explore those
perspectives.
So, from your personalperspective, how do you define
fatherhood and what does it meanto you?
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Yeah, so that's a broad question.
You know, i think fatherhoodmuch like motherhood and maybe
parenthood, let's just call itthat is about providing for the
next generation that you bringinto the world, kind of setting
up a good, strong foundation sothat they can reach they meaning
(04:51):
your children right, whateverthe dynamic could be Their
fullest potential.
You know, I look at my rolethrough a lens of trying to set
a stage and set a foundation formy children so that they can
achieve probably the most thatthey possibly can, whether
that's happiness, impact in thepeople that they interact with,
(05:15):
what they contribute to theircommunity, society as a whole.
It's really just setting themup with that foundation And, in
a lot of ways, that foundationfrom the lessons I've learned
through life.
So you know, as my time as aparent has evolved, i've become
less focused on fatherhoodversus motherhood and more about
(05:37):
my role as a parent and fillingthe gaps or the voids that my
partner in this journey, my wife, can't fill right.
So it's kind of an ebb and flowand trying to find out okay,
what do you need me to providein this moment versus what's
best for you to provide to themin this moment.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense to view parenthood and
fatherhood through the lens ofpartnership, right?
Because I think about that toowith you.
know, i can't do it all and Ican't be at all, and nor should
I for my kids, and what I can'tdo or what I'm unable to do in
(06:15):
that moment my wife can pick upthe slack, and I hear you saying
that a lot about your partnertoo.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Yeah, it really is a partnership.
Regardless of you know, as I'vegone through life and I've
talked with people regardless ofthe family is it's the right
way to put this regardless ofthe family is still intact in
the standard way or not, it'salways a partnership And I think
it's an ebb and flow andfilling gaps right And filling
in and carrying different loadsthroughout different periods,
(06:42):
because I think experiences havea lot to do with the role of
parenthood, right?
So each parent will bring adifferent perspective to the
table And I think the moreenriched lesson that children
can receive, the better.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Yeah, as you think about non-traditional families,
even those families who arechildren are being raised by a
single parent or a grandparentor some other guardian.
there has to be a partnershipwith someone, because you can't
do it alone.
It's really difficult to doalone, and so, whether that
partner is, you know, a closefriend or even the teacher at
(07:19):
the school, there has to be somesort of partnership that you
form in order to make it throughthis, this kind of journey
called parenting.
I found that I have changed mydefinition of fatherhood
frequently over the last.
I've been a dad for five years.
So even in the last five years,you know, you learning, you, you
(07:41):
grow, you think like I, i thinkI thought I'm trying to raise
good kids.
And then, along the line, i waslike well, i'm trying to
actually not raise kids, i'mtrying to raise adults.
And then, at the then I saidwell, i'm actually not trying to
raise adults, i'm trying toraise citizens, global citizens.
So it evolves and I don't, youknow, in a year from now, two
years from now, i could bethinking something very
different.
but that's how I've evolved sofar in the first five years, and
(08:04):
I think fatherhood has a way ofshaping us as individuals,
often leading to transformativeexperiences.
You know, in your case, how hasbeing a father impacted your
life and maybe impacted yourpersonal goals.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Oh, wow, that's a big one.
So for me, i have to think aboutthe beginning, when we, my wife
and I, first thought aboutbecoming parents, and so it was
relatively early in our marriage, but it took a long time for us
to become parents.
(08:38):
We had, we had troubles, we hadstruggles in getting pregnant
the first time, so much so thatwe had tried for years, and we
were preparing to, to go theroute of help right Of
specialists.
And so going through thatprocess at that time, you know
(08:58):
it, it involved a series ofsteps and preparation and
consultation and meetings andplanning, and all this, this,
this, this work and pre-work,and right at the last stage,
before we were to start thecycle of our first attempt,
right to go through assistedpregnancy, the last step was,
(09:20):
you know, they said, well, wegot to give you a pregnancy test
.
We know.
You know this is not meant tofrustrate you, but it's just
meant to make sure, because thenext steps that we go through it
can't be done if you're alreadypregnant.
We said, no problem, no stress,we'll go through that test.
And lo and behold, we werepregnant.
And you know our first reactionwas like, wow, this really
(09:42):
works, we have to start RightWow.
You're really good at what youdo, right?
So I tell you that storybecause we were very prepared to
become parents of our firstchild, my daughter, and so we
had her and, like I don't know,eight months after we had my
(10:03):
daughter, we were pregnant againwith our son.
So we were like whoa, weweren't ready, right, right, we
were ready for one, we weresuper ready for one, we weren't
ready for two.
And so that kind of instantlychanged, i think, the longterm
vision of what we were going todo.
But that's okay, right, parent.
In some ways, parenting is aboutpivoting and adapting and
(10:26):
adjusting and saying, okay, soyou know, i had one plan.
This plan comes out How do youmake the adjustments and keep a
longer goal, a longer vision, inthe focus?
So I think having two childrenmay have changed my initial
outlook on what parenting wasgoing to look like.
(10:46):
You know, when my son wasdiagnosed on the spectrum, that
certainly changed our longtermplans of okay, what does
preparing him for the world looklike?
Right?
Certainly not a lesser than orgreater than experience, not a
different experience, right?
About what does it mean toprepare him for the world?
You talked before aboutpreparing citizens or preparing
(11:09):
adults, or you know so much ofparenting is preparing the next
generation for what they'regoing to interact with and
having a big impact.
That's a different preparationfor my son, and so that
certainly changed Changed time,commitment and roles that we
have to play and where our focusneeds to be and how long that
(11:31):
journey is going to be.
So, yeah, listen, you get thevery head of this episode You
talked about.
Every journey is unique, and Ithink that's the case regardless
of what changes in the plan youface when you go through
parenting.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
When you think about your career, you know where were
you in your career when youwere becoming a father, and how
did that change?
Were your aspirations did it?
Did it change where you wantedto go next?
Did it change where you want?
to live Those types of things.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Yeah, so I'm going to answer that, but I'm also going
to challenge you to give meyour take to, because in a lot
of ways, you and I've known eachother for a little while, and
please take this the right way.
I see some of my experience inyou, you know, but maybe a
couple of years.
You know, i won't date us, buta couple of years prior to me.
(12:28):
So, yeah, so what?
so when we got pregnant, I was,I was early into my
professional career and my wifeand I we had all the free spirit
in the world.
We were like, look, whatever ittakes to go this far as we can
go, as fast as we can go, andtake as many chances as we can,
(12:49):
we're up for we're game.
You know, my wife's a freespirit.
She's willing to take on newexperiences and fact prefers to
take on the new experience.
So we were like where do youwant us to move?
How quickly do you want us toget there?
How long we have to stay, orhow short do we have to stay?
No problem, Let's do it.
So, in a broad sense, becomingparents drastically changed that
(13:13):
priority and it became lessabout what we wanted and more
about what is best for ourfamily not just best for our
children, but best for ourfamily.
And I'm very particular aboutthe choice of words there,
because I caution people who askme.
Not everybody asks me, but Icaution people who ask me to be
(13:34):
careful about making everythingabout one aspect of your family.
You should think about thefamily as a whole, because a
happy and healthy family makesfor happy and healthy
individuals within it And you'vede-prioritized the individuals
and the family, cracks in thedamn conform, so to speak
(13:55):
metaphorically, and it can bedangerous.
At least that's just been myexperience, my observation.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
I would agree when you said that our journeys are
probably somewhat similar.
You know me, i've lived whenpeople say, like where are you
from?
Like you got time, like wheredo you get time?
Because I got to tell you,coast to coast, border to border
, international, we've beeneverywhere And I think where we
live now is probably where we'regoing to be, at least for the
(14:29):
short-term, long-term,short-term, long-term.
What was really interesting tome, what you just said, both in
what you just said and what yousaid previously in our last
episode and I would encourageour listeners to go back and
listen to our episode in seasonone you talked a lot about the
family unit and how much timeand effort you spend reinforcing
(14:53):
and making stronger that familyunit.
Can you talk about some of theintentional things that you do
or have done to make sure thatyou are a unit first?
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Yeah, yeah, so you're right.
I mean, that's everything.
If somebody were to say what doyou think the most important
thing about?
maybe life at this stage in thegame that you're in?
it is maintenance, constantmaintenance on strengthening the
family unit.
(15:27):
Everybody in my nuclear familyand my household family plays a
critical part in making thewhole engine go, including my
daughter, including my son.
So when you asked about what aresome of the things you have
done, you are doing, i'll alsosay, and I'm continuing to do
and I'm thinking about doing inthe future, because I just got a
(15:49):
lesson from somebody the otherday and it was impactful to me
and my wife and I were talkingabout whether we want to try and
adopt some version of it intoour routine.
But I'll get there in a second.
I would just say that we havevery candid, very real
conversations frequently as afamily about what our needs are,
(16:10):
how we're doing, how we'refeeling, and we make sure those
conversations, when they're had,they are free of judgment, free
of repercussion.
We taught my daughter, who isseventeen now, but from a very
early age, to find safe spacesand safe people and speak openly
(16:31):
about her feelings and heremotions and frustrations.
and happiness is joys and beingvulnerable, especially with us,
because we're the ones thathave her best interest at heart
at all times.
So you know, that's one way wewe've kind of given some
maintenance to, to, to thefamily unit the other is a
decision making right.
(16:52):
as we talked about career before, you know, we've made some from
some, some relatively bigdecisions about where we moved
and what we prioritize, what wehave made as non negotiables in
our life Around the strength ofthe family you know I'm in one.
now that you know, you're wellaware where I live now is pretty
(17:12):
much Are almost entirely drivenby the importance of creating a
by by large and wide network offamily for my son.
For those that are familiarwith children on the spectrum,
familiarity and regularity androutine are important right
there, important for safety andsense of comfort and a safe, a
(17:37):
sense of security for childrenon the spectrum.
and so I put a lot of work, mywife put a lot of work, my
daughter put a lot of work intogetting us to a place where we
have a broad and strong and bestkind of family network for my
son, and that's a commitmentthat we've all made to each
other and made as a family, andthat we're going to see it
(17:58):
through one way or another Tothe point about working forward.
so let me let me share with youand the listeners what I heard
the other day because I thinkit's worth, it's worth
considering for people, and Iheard it in the context of
somebody that was talking aboutpractices of strong marriages
and they said oftentimes peoplesay a marriage is a fifty, fifty
(18:20):
Proposition right thateverybody, that each member in
the marriage, needs to bringfifty percent to the table.
and they said but if you thinkabout that, that's unrealistic
And unsustainable.
some days each member of themarriage, of the marriage, may
not be able to bring a fullfifty percent to the table and
bad day at work.
they've gotten into a fight.
you know, presentation may notgo on the right way or
(18:44):
deliverable may not havehappened.
they got some tough feedback Andyou're gonna come home was just
say, right here from home, fromthe job, and you're just not
gonna be able to bring fiftypercent to the table.
But if the other member of thatmarriage is expecting that
fifty percent and they'rebringing their fifty percent,
but you're only bringing twentyfive percent, well, you're at
seventy five percent and that'sgonna have.
(19:06):
that's gonna have impact,that's gonna have repercussions
to it.
And so the person that I heardthis from was saying a best
practice might be having openand honest conversations when
you come back together at theend of the day or whatever.
it's a so yeah.
And if you're not at a fifty,being being open about that and
(19:27):
saying so I'm, i'm at aboutforty right now.
You know it's not was anhorrible day, but I'm just, i'm
not there, i don't, i don't knowthat I can bring my share to
the, to the, to the table, andit's just me being real.
And that gives the chance forthe other person to say, ok, i
can make that up, don't worry, ican make up the time that you
can't.
I can bring sixty to the table,whether that's whether that's
helping, helping out around thehouse with chores more, helping
(19:49):
with the kids more, or, you know, kind of Shouldering a little
bit of a heavier load.
Or if the other member says youknow what, look, i had a bad
day to and I'm not at fiftyeither.
You're at forty, i'm at forty.
We're gonna be short.
Having that other conversationis saying how do we give each
other grace, how do we becareful in this situation that
we don't Slip and make some,make some mistakes that we don't
(20:13):
we're gonna regret down theroad?
we know we're not coming to thetable with a full one hundred.
So let's, let's think thisthrough, what's come up with a
strategy, right, and let's becognizant of that, that we're
both.
We're both not at our at ourtop level or even at our
expected level.
When I heard that, i was like,well, that's pretty, that's
pretty insightful and it'spretty true.
(20:34):
I mean, there are days you comehome and you're like I still
have it.
I don't have it.
I really want to bring it, butI don't have it.
So where are you at?
can you make up for me?
and if you can, okay, let'stalk about what strategies do we
want to be at right now?
what strategy you want to do sothat a we don't, we don't go to
a place where we regret witheach other and be you, create an
environment for that familyunit.
(20:56):
So I'm bringing it all the wayback to the circle, to your
point about me.
It's about the unit.
We don't.
We don't we don't inadvertentlycause damage or harm to the
unit As as a parent and team.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
You're, you're just bringing what we call brood
wisdom on, dad.
That was that.
That hit me.
Like I was.
I was like I just had this lastnight.
Like okay, so my wife and I,typically at bedtime bath time
one of us take my daughter andone of us take my sons And we do
(21:30):
bath book, teeth, brushing, bed.
That's what our, our situationis.
And so I had my daughter and Idid my part.
And then I came back and I wassitting on the couch and she was
like, could you Put the boys tobed?
and I was like that that is notmy job, your job is to do this
(21:50):
and your job is to do that.
Like what do you mean?
what's going on?
and she's like I'm just not,it's not feeling it.
And I was like, but it isexactly what you said just when
you, when you, when you positionit that way in the sense that
like, look, i don't have ittoday, i had whatever happened.
I don't have it today and I needyou to pick up the slack, and
(22:11):
if I feel like, if we would haveset the expectation that we
that's how we talk to each otherwhen we just don't have it or
when I need a little bit morefrom you in XYZ or whatever it
just could come up, come up inany time point of the day, right
, much more.
I would have given much moregrace if we would have set those
norms as a unit, that whenyou're not all the way there, i
(22:35):
just need you to tell me here'show.
I need you to tell me It's.
What's interesting is we dothat in probably every other
part of our life except for that.
And it just really hit me thatyou know, if you set those
communication preferences andyou say here's how we're going
to talk about when we're not allthe way there, because, to your
point, you can't always be atyou would, whatever version of
(22:56):
your 100% needs to be, you can'talways be there.
That's unsustainable because ofso much that happens in our
lives, right?
so who?
Speaker 1 (23:04):
was Wisdom.
so if you think about howimportant that is to the
marriage, but then exponentiallyhow important that is to the
family, and kids who are, youknow, in a large way looking to
you saying what, where's thewhere's 100%?
I got used to the 100%.
I want 100%, right, not bringit.
So what's going on?
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Right, like that was me.
I was like my job is done, i'msitting on this couch finished,
so I want to change gears.
And this is a.
This is a heavy one, this is aone.
So I want to talk a little bitabout masculinity and how it's
often intertwined withfatherhood.
(23:48):
I think it can be fascinatingto explore how those concepts
intersect.
How is your experience as afather influence your
understanding of masculinity andshaped your perspective on
manhood?
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Hmm, that is a tough one.
It's a tough one because in abroad sense, i listen, i think
fatherhood is a constantevolution and I think that I
particular and my work inprogress still even with a 17
year old daughter and you know,traditionally, you know, the
(24:23):
thought process is when a childor a kid reaches 18, they get to
adulthood and your job is over,although we all know that job
is an over.
You know that there are lessons, that you are far beyond your
18th birthday.
But fatherhood and masculinityand what role I play as a father
(24:44):
versus maybe my wife's mother,has exponentially evolved over
the last 18 years and I havebecome less rooted in the
historical or traditional viewsof masculinity and more rooted
in what things I bring to thetable To the table that are
(25:07):
maybe unique to me and whatthings my wife brings to the
table that are unique to her,but also making sure that our
children, and more particularlymy daughter, because she's more
aware or cognizant of differentroles gender roles, if you will,
(25:28):
or how that plays into societyI'm more rooted in passing on
lessons that I've learned andshowing and giving exposure and
perspective to my daughter thatmakes her more enriched as she
interacts out in society.
So let me explain a little bitmore what I mean by that.
(25:51):
One of the base, core,fundamental values that I try
and bring to my kids is that oneof the secrets to life is to
constantly have gain, learn andexpand your perspective on any
situation.
The world is about differentperspectives and different
viewpoints, and those are alldriven by different experiences,
(26:13):
different challenges, differentsuccesses and different
failures.
The more you can be sensitive tothe fact that individuals and
people bring a vast array ofdifferent perspectives to every
situation, the better you'regoing to be equipped at not only
surviving in a moment, butthriving in a moment, because
you know that listen,everybody's bringing a different
(26:35):
perspective, not right, notwrong, just different.
And so understanding that setsyou up for success at achieving
whatever it is, the end outcomeyou're looking for.
So when you think about that,my wife and I bring different
strengths to the table, andthey're not rooted, in my mind,
in masculinity or femininity Youknow what I mean But more just
(26:58):
understanding what roles you canplay in a scenario, being
self-confident, right in everyscenario, because you come with
an enriched sort of perspectiveand understanding of what other
people may be representing inthere.
So it's tough.
I don't know where I'm at rightnow in this stage in my life or
(27:21):
my character, but masculinityis less important to me than
just my perspective and maybethe lessons I've learned.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Yeah, i continue to involve my view on masculinity.
I think I was in a fraternity incollege and had the opportunity
to talk about what masculinitywhen looks like, when it becomes
too toxic.
I went to a leadershipdevelopment forum and we talked
(27:51):
about toxic masculinity and whatdoes that mean and how do you
navigate that from a fraternityexperience And that can become
dangerous in a fraternityenvironment if there's too much
toxic masculinity in anenvironment, and I've taken some
of those learnings with me intofatherhood and how maybe an
(28:11):
overbearing or an outdated viewof masculinity can really impact
a family unit or even apartnership with your spouse.
I do find myself in a bit of avulnerable moment.
I do find myself in stilltrying to navigate what society
(28:35):
believes masculinity should looklike and then what I believe
the fluidity of that should beand could be.
At the same time, i find myselfadopting certain societal norms
and I'll give you an example.
So I was talking to my wifeabout something when it comes to
my sons and I said somethingvery different when it came to
(28:57):
my daughter and I was like, well, there's a protectionism and
she called me out on it.
Right, she was not inclusive andshe was like well, why would
you treat her any different?
And I was like I can't explainto you why I would treat her
different.
It just feels like I should andI know that I shouldn't, but
(29:21):
there's a pull in me that feelslike I should and I can't
explain it and I know Ishouldn't and I'll do better.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
That's the only way that.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
I can explain that to you right, because the societal
pools on what a man and afather should be have been so
ingrained in boys and men'sheads for so long it's really
really hard to let go of.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
I hear you.
I hear you.
I'm in that place right now too, especially because I spend so
much time passing on lessons tomy daughter, and I looked at it
through a lens of for a longtime, what can I bring to the
table for her as a young woman?
And then I realized itshouldn't matter what she is,
(30:12):
woman or young woman or youngman.
I have lessons to bring to thetable one way or another.
And I think even more valuableare maybe the lessons I can
bring to her that my wife maynot be equipped to bring,
regardless of whether they'retied to gender or not.
I also your comment resonates tome about societal norms and how
(30:36):
they can become toxic, and Iget very concerned about what
impact that could have onchildren, whether minor or
anybody, if you try and fitespecially impressionable young
minds into a box that they maynot be ready to go into or
comfortable going into or wantto go into.
I've always been what I like tothink of as open minded
(30:59):
throughout my life about thevast differences of life
experiences that people have outthere, but I've been
particularly sensitive aboutbeing careful of pushing people
into pre-prescribed modes ofwhat they should be right,
whether it's masculine orfeminine, career choices,
(31:22):
personality traits, leadershipstyles.
It's a slippery slope.
We know this when we try andattest or we guard against the
testing attributes to people ofdifferent races or religions,
but for some reason we don'ttranslate that to gender, and
it's equally as dangerous to dothat to gender.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
Right.
Our own upbringing can shapeour approach to fatherhood in
really profound ways and so,reflecting on your own childhood
experiences.
How have they played a role inshaping your perspective on
fatherhood?
Are there any aspects you'veintentionally carried forward or
sought to change based on thoseexperiences?
Speaker 1 (32:09):
Yes.
So I think about theintentionality my parents
brought to my childhood inexposing me very early, at a
very early age, to the realitiesof the world, regardless of how
controversial they could havebeen or potentially sensitive
(32:33):
they could have been.
My parents both of them feltvery strongly in exposing me to
the diversity of opinions, thediversity of issues out there
sort of the worldly, views ofdifferent countries, communities
, norm, societal norms out there, and And and and, setting me up
(32:57):
with a lens not of right orwrong, good or bad, but just
different, right different andwhy it's been different and why
it evolved into that way.
So much so that they were veryparticular about not even
wanting to impart upon me theirown Societal views, political
(33:23):
views, religious views, thosetypes of things.
They very much wanted to giveme all Of the perspectives, all
of the building blocks, all ofthe ingredients, and said at
some point you're gonna have tomake a decision for yourself And
we just want to give you asmuch ammunition, so to speak, to
make an informed decision foryou and for what's right for you
(33:44):
.
I have absolutely carried thatforward with my children.
I couldn't.
It's probably the Thing I ammost thankful to my parents for
Preparing my life with that sortof perspective.
It's tough because I, you know,i also.
I lost my father at, not whileI was a child, it was while, i
(34:06):
was a young adult, but I losthim.
I thought before I got some ofthe most valuable lessons That I
was that I was looking forwardto.
So that impacted me as well,because I I view the time with
my daughter in particular Asvaluable and not, you know,
don't take tomorrow for granted,because you don't know that
(34:28):
you'll always be able to bethere to pass along The lessons.
So there's no time like thepresent to pass along as much as
you possibly can.
So when you, when you look atlife of you like that, you tend
to say, well, i don't want towaste time on Is this the right
moment in her life to share thelesson with her?
you share it with her and then,if she struggles Understanding
(34:50):
it or coping, you help herthrough understanding and coping
with it.
You don't you don't waste theopportunity to share the lesson.
At 17, my daughter knows most,almost most things that that I'm
going through in my life right,whether it's professionally or
you know, decisions that we'remaking as a family or what have
you.
Because I want her to gain theExperience from that.
(35:13):
It's very early on in life Iwas taught one of the one of the
only ways to cheat Experiences,from learning from the lessons
of from others, right.
So the way you can overcome ageor overcome tenure is just by
being a consummate student ofother people's failures and
successes.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
Hmm.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
So yeah, so so yeah.
I mean, it's a great question.
You're right, we are formed bythe upbringing we have, and that
certainly was maybe thestrongest lesson my parents
taught me.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
Yeah, i am.
I had the privilege of growingup with six grandparents, so two
on each side and agreat-grandparent on each side,
and I resonate a lot with kindof the The gone too soon or did
I make the most of the time?
(36:04):
All six, actually, of mygrandparents have now have now
passed and It's tough because Ido think that there's wisdom
that I missed out on because weget wrapped up in our own
whatever and We miss out onasking some of the critical
questions.
(36:24):
And you know I look back fondlyon Conversations I did have and
lessons I did learn.
I think you always are like,well, what if I would have had X
amount more time, right?
So I think that's always alittle bit challenging.
You know, one of the thingsthat I joked at one of my
grandparents It joked in in ingreat truth and great fun was I
(36:48):
learned a lot about dinner Frommy grandparents because my
grandparents on my dad's side Wewould sit down as a family at
the table every night and wewould have dinner and we would
talk.
The TV would not be on, we wouldbe.
We didn't have phones at thatpoint or any any phone We're
looking at, to be honest and wewould talk, and we do that now
(37:09):
with my, with my family.
We sit down and we haveconversations and even if one of
us slips and starts to scrollLike up no phones at the table
Well, we, we talk about our dayand that's a, that's an
intentional part of fatherhoodthat I've brought forward and
sought to continue, because Ithink that You know, dinner and
(37:29):
having a good meal and havinggood conversation is is a really
important and impactful Way toend the day as a, as a family,
regardless of what, what else isgoing on.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Yeah, yeah, that's dinner.
You talked about that and youknow, i was listening to your
story while it seemed, the sametime reminiscing about what
dinners were like when I I wasComing up and, and it's
strangely enough, we do theexact same thing now.
We did that, so it's less.
It's less to pulse, and let'ssay so, we, when we eat dinner,
(38:02):
when I was coming up, we alwayssat down and watched TV, and the
show that we watched was thesame every single night, five
days a week, 52 weeks a year.
Every day, we sat down andwatched Jeopardy.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
I knew you're gonna say Jeopardy.
Knew you're gonna say Jeopardy,i Knew it.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
You know, i would say from you know the third grade.
I would sit there and you knowmy parents would sit there,
rattle off answers, rattle offanswers and and I remember it
Clearly because my father wouldwork in the city, he'd come home
on the train.
Either my mother would go pickthem up Or when I started to
drive, i would go pick them up.
It was like a rush becausewe're like oh, it's like seven,
(38:47):
you know, seven, twenty seven.
We have to get quick, quicklyget back for for Jeopardy, maybe
what.
We would watch him for like tenyears.
I would get no answers right,like I was.
Like, you know, i was waitingfor the sports category, so
maybe I'll be able to get somesports questions right.
And then it was like you know,sports from the 40s, in the 50s,
i'm like, well, i don't knowthat.
So, so, so.
But then, slowly but surely,i'd start to get like one
(39:12):
question right out of the wholeshow And I got one right tonight
, awesome, and I get like fiveright and then I would be
getting to the point where I dopretty good in single Jeopardy,
double Jeopardy.
I was like, okay, now That's it.
I'm not sure.
I'm first round, only Rightright so the point where, then,
i was holding my own and, justwithout even kind of knowing it,
(39:33):
we did the same thing with mydaughter, and she did the exact
same thing from a little kid.
She's sit there and and I'llnever forget her She would
answer almost everything withCanada.
I don't know why she was likeCanada.
Like no, not everything's yeah,but then finally she got like
(39:57):
one right and she got five rightand To this day she's 17 years
old.
There is no way I can beat herat all.
I mean, she's just rattling offstuff and she's like, oh yeah,
that's this, oh yeah, that'sthat.
Oh yeah, this is it on mycolleague, she is a whiskey, so,
um, you know, i it's funny asas, as funny as the story is.
(40:18):
I also think that helped in kindof having a worldly view on
things, because you know thatthe topics and you know Jeopardy
are all over the board.
I mean, you know Europeanhistory and you know Slavic
languages and, right, 6thcentury Egypt, so it's all over
the place.
So you have to, you have tokind of come to every episode.
(40:39):
When I was a kid, like I got tohave a little bit of knowledge
and Everything.
So let me just, you know, letme pick up stuff and I remember
starting to think this might bea question on jeopardy at some
point.
So let me, let me store thataway, store that away.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
So I have one more question for you.
So you have shared with me thatyou typically have an annual
daddy daughter Trip, and so yourecently went to Washington DC.
Can you tell our listeners youknow where that concept came
from and what it meant, what ithas meant to you over the years?
Speaker 1 (41:13):
Yeah, so the concept of daddy daughter trips.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
Yeah, when did you start?
Speaker 1 (41:19):
Really young.
She was probably I don't know,i don't know maybe seven or
eight years old, and it was bornout of, maybe, a different
concern at the time.
At the time we were in thebeginning stages of learning
what it meant to take care of myson and what that dynamic was
going to mean, and my wife and Iwere becoming increasingly
(41:40):
concerned that we didn't want mydaughter to suffer from an
attention standpoint and aprioritization standpoint.
You know, oftentimes with myson he has to sort of be I don't
want to say the center ofattention, but you know all eyes
are on him for reasons, and sowe wanted to make sure that she
had time where she was thecenter of attention.
And at that stage traveling formy son was hard, and
(42:06):
particularly somebody watchinghim was hard.
And so we started to questionmaybe we needed to break up
trips with my daughter of onewith my wife and one with my
myself.
And to your point before aboutpre-prescribed roles of fathers,
you know I kind of approachedit from well, i need to teach
her what it means.
(42:27):
You know, what manhood and menin her life should look like,
what she should come to expect,what she should expect from
others And so that you know,listen, full transparency.
I still think that it's avaluable lesson to learn, but it
was a little bit prescribed,right.
It was a little bit societallyprescribed and holding.
(42:47):
So it kind of started fromthere And the trips were
nonspecific about where we weregoing and what we were getting
out of the trip.
It was more about just the time,the quality time.
It evolved to trips that wereimpactful because of things that
(43:07):
we both valued and werepassionate about.
So you mentioned, the last tripwas to DC And my daughter,
while educationally she wants togo into medicine, she has
become very passionate andcurious and knowledgeable about,
you know, politics and civicsand the role the government
(43:30):
plays and the role that peopleplay in government And so on
that and history.
She's very, very curious abouthistory And so our trips to DC
became really treasured timesfor us because of just how much
there is to absorb there.
Not only just absorb, butexperience, you know, unique
(43:52):
experiences together.
This last trip we went to, wewent for our second time to the
museum, a National Museum ofAfrican American History, and we
spent, i don't know, five hoursin the museum the first time we
went And this time we spentanother five hours and we didn't
even get to everything, andit's not so much what you see
(44:15):
there, but it's then theconversations that ensue after
experiencing it together inperspectives that get shared
together.
So it's funny we go to DC andwe spend time in museums and we
go to sites, monuments and lookat things, but the most valuable
time on that trip is theconversations we have at the end
(44:35):
of the day, when we're sittingat dinner and talking about what
we saw, what we felt, what wethought and what we're nervous
about, why we think thingshappened and where we see things
happening again or don't seethings happening again, and what
it's going to take.
Yeah, you mentioned beforeabout not wasting opportunities.
It's those times that I cherishthe most.
Speaker 2 (44:55):
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome.
Thank you for sharing and thankyou for being with us, and so
that concludes our justincredible interview with you,
mike, wow, thank you Listen.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
this is great conversation.
I think it's a conversation.
It's great back and forth andI'm learning as much from you as
hopefully I'm bringing to David.
Hopefully I brought a lot tothe table for you and for the
listeners, and I know I took alot away from this discussion.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
You certainly did and I want to extend a heartfelt
thank you for sharing yourvaluable insights, experiences
and perspectives with us todayYour journey as a father.
We're grateful to have had thisopportunity to learn from you.
There's some nuggets that Itook and hopefully our listeners
did too.
I have no doubt that you'll beback on the panel with the other
fellas guys soon To ourlisteners.
(45:46):
Thank you for joining us onthis special episode of Dad's
Getting Coffee podcast.
We hope you enjoyed thisintimate and, as Mike just
mentioned, in-depth conversation, delving into the unique
perspectives of us both.
We wanted to try somethingdifferent this episode and we
hope that it resonated with you.
We'll be back in your podcastspeed soon with more episodes of
(46:09):
Dad's Getting Coffee, where wecontinue to celebrate the
diverse experiences and variousstories of fatherhood.
We have an incredible lineup ofguests for this season and
exciting topics on the horizon,So make sure you stay tuned.
Of course, bobby and Corey willbe back for brewed wisdom and
hot takes, as always.
If you enjoyed this episode,please share it with your
(46:29):
friends, family, fellow andaspiring dads.
Your support means the world tous and it helps us reach a
wider audience of individualswho can benefit from the wisdom
and insights and laugh share onthis podcast.
Once again, a special thank youto our guest, mike, for his
openness and willingness toshare his fatherhood journey
with us, and thank you to ourlisteners for being part of the
(46:51):
Dad's Getting Coffee community.
Remember you're not alone inthis incredible journey called
fatherhood.
Until next time, keep brewingmeaningful moments, cherishing
your role as a dad and savoringevery sip of life.
We'll see you soon on the nextepisode of Dad's Getting Coffee
podcast.
Dad's Getting Coffee.
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