The Red Sleeve / Ep. 92

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:19):
I'm Jessica and this is Tiba K Rambles, where a couple of
friends review Korean dramas. Welcome back to a really, really
cool episode. We're going to be covering the
Red Sleeve. And for this episode, I am
joined by Mina from the K Pop Bookshelf podcast.
How are you, Mina? I'm well, how are you?
I am. Well, it's been a minute since

(00:39):
we've chatted. The last time I had you on was
for Sky Castle, I think was the last review and what a great
deep dive. And we're going to deep dive on
another big one. I had you on also for Mr.
Sunshine and I feel like every time there's like a really rich
text, I have you come and pinch it for me.

(01:04):
So I hope you don't mind. This is a longer show that we're
reviewing because it's 17 episodes and the episodes are
often longer than an hour. So I braved the elements
basically for y'all to re watch this show.
I don't know about you, how haveyou been #1?
Oh I've been doing well. I'm on hiatus currently still
from my podcast and I am reintegrating myself into having

(01:27):
the focus and attention span to watch dramas that was missing
for me for a little while. So this is actually a good one
too because of the longer episodes to get me back.
Into it, yeah, I binge this, I binge this in like 2 days and
and I again, don't like long episodes and I forgot that these

(01:50):
episodes get progressively longer until the last episode is
an hour and 40 minutes long. Brutal, brutal, brutal.
But there's a lot of story here,a lot of meat on the bone and
we're going to get into it. If this is your first time
listening though, please go ahead and subscribe on your
favorite podcast app or on ApplePodcast, Spotify and many more.

(02:11):
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(02:31):
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Sarah, Julia #2, Pam, and Angie.Thank you so much for being
patrons. OK, so we're going to get into

(02:53):
the Red Sleeve non spoiler section.
Are you ready, Mina? I'm ready, OK.
OK, the Vicky synopsis today is Prince Yisan vows to become a
benevolent monarch despite his cruel grandfather's reign.
He falls for some Dakim, an intelligent and spirited palace
maid. Yisan aims to make her his

(03:15):
concubine, but Thakim knows becoming a royal consort would
restrict her freedom and rob herof joy.
Undeterred by Thakim's misgivings, Yisan's pure love
slowly wins her over. Will their hard earned love be
able to withstand the turmoils of palace life?
Based on the novel of the same name by Kang Me Kang, published

(03:36):
in 2017. All right, so The Red Sleeve
aired in November 2021 and went until January 1st, 2022.
It is 17 episodes long. As I said at the top, it is
directed by Jung Jin. I'm not sure if you've seen this
director's work. They've directed things like

(03:59):
Shining Romance, Hold Me Tight, Radiant Office, the most recent
one you might have heard of, Cheong Neon.
The star is born from 2024, which starred Kim Terry, and she
won the Peck Song Award for thatrole.

(04:19):
I think rather contentiously because I don't think a lot of
people expected her to win that one, but here we are.
It is written by Kong NI Kong, the novelist and Cheong Hedy as
well was the screenwriter. Dung Hedy has written The
Emperor Owner of the Mask from 2017, which I really loved that

(04:40):
show. Not sure if you've seen it.
And Quebec from 2011. Have you seen the director's
work or the writers? No, I don't think I have, no.
OK, this show stars Eugeno Azizan.
He's the Crown Prince. Yes, Eugeno the Idol actor.
Yes, Eugeno. From 2:00 PM.

(05:02):
I can't you feel my heart speeding for you.
Well for me, I always go back towhat, like that stupid chair
dance and they're like feeling themselves up and I eat it up.

(05:24):
The choreo. Oh my God I could not stop
thinking of that while watching re watching the show.
Oh God. Anyway so Asian though has been
in about 5 movies including Twenty and Memories of the
Sword. I really like both of those
movies. They're about 10 years old at
this point which really threw me.
When I saw 2015 pop up I was like how is that double digits?

(05:46):
10 years old. Anyway, he's been in 11 TV shows
including Rain or Shine, also known as Just Between Lovers
from 20/17/2018 Walk of Love. Of course, he followed up the
Red Sleeve with King the Land from 2023, which I think was

(06:07):
upsetting to say the least. What do you what do you think
about Egino? OK, I similar.
I can never not think of him as 2:00 PM Ijunho.
So it's really tough. I was just like kind of
struggling. But I start yeah, I either
started or just blocked from memory watching King the Land
because I that's probably the only thing I think out of the

(06:27):
list of the TV's and movie work that he's done that I've either
tried to see or actually saw. So.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't like the female lead in
Rain or Shine and I vividly remember watching Rain or Shine
and thinking that he was acting circles around her like he was
just so much better than her andit was frustrating.

(06:48):
And then also I'm not a huge fanof shared trauma stories like
something awful shit terrible thing happened.
I saw rain or shine, I saw it. OK, OK.
I don't, I'm just trying not to spoil it too much, but basically
this awful thing happens to bothof them when they're teenagers
and then they, that's right, kind of get together later and

(07:10):
they realize they were both partof the same tragedy.
And I'm like, I don't know aboutthis kind of stuff.
It's just so shaky to me. Other people really gravitate
towards shared trauma stories, but I have a hard time
swallowing that, so yeah. So you did watch Rain or Shine.
I did OK, I did. And I just, I guess maybe that's
the one time I couldn't rememberhim as E Junho the whole entire

(07:32):
time, but. But he's like kind of Moody and
like, yeah, yeah. His Co star in the Red Sleeve is
E Sei Young. She plays song dakim.
She's been in about 11 movies and about 30 TV shows.
When I saw thirty, I was like, Oh my God.
She is basically a child actresswho's grown up in the industry.

(07:53):
She's been acting since the early aughts.
She's been in great things like Jewel in the Palace from 2003.
I was like, Oh my God, one of the high kicks.
I miss you, which talking about really sad, traumatic trauma
bonding kind of shows like I Miss You as one of those from
2012 hit the top Korean Odyssey.We have covered her in another

(08:16):
show, The Crowned Clown from 20/19.
She played the Queen in that show and I adored the Crowned
Clown. You can scroll back in your
podcast feed and listen to that full deep dive review.
Doctor John Memoris the Law Cafestory of Parks marriage contract
What comes after Love Motel California, most recently in
2025. What do you think of Issa Young

(08:40):
and where have you seen her before?
I don't think I've seen her anywhere, but I really want to
watch a Jewel in the Palace because it's like an iconic
drama anyway. So yes, I want to watch that.
And she's probably a kid, or at least a young, young person.
Young person, Yeah. She was born in 92.
OK, So 2003 makes her eleven years old.

(09:02):
Yeah. Yeah, she would be 11 years old
and a jewel in the palace. But yeah, I love her.
I think this show is a wonderfulshowcase for her.
I loved her and what comes afterlove.
And I think she's, like, amazing.
I think she's an amazing actress.
Those are our basically top 2 billing of the show.

(09:25):
We do have a huge cast, but we'll be here all day if we try
and go through everybody and their filmography.
So we'll just settle for Ethanoland Issa Young.
What did you think of the Red Sleeve?
I I didn't hate it. No, no, because The thing is, it

(09:45):
was, it's so rich and in both instorytelling, cinematography,
the costumes, the sets, the acting is lovely and everything
is so great. But it's like a lot is happening
and at some point I'm like couldn't even remember the first
few parts, like the first half almost of the season because it
just not even like takes a turn.It's just now we're doing
something else entire really. So from that aspect I was a

(10:07):
little like overwhelmed in a way, and also like in a
different headspace almost by the end.
Yeah, I would agree. I felt this more on this rewatch
was that I shouldn't have bingedthis at all.
This was a horrible idea to binge this.
You know, I get busy, I work full time.

(10:27):
And so I was like, oh, I'm just going to have to binge this on
these two days. And usually, as most folks may
or, and I know I am a really good binger, I kind of thrive
under a stupid deadline. And as soon as I was like on
episode 2 or three, I was like, this was a horrible idea.
I should not have binged this. This is one of those shows where
you want to watch it week to week, where you want to have

(10:50):
that separation and time to digest each episode and what
happens. It's difficult to wrap your head
around all the changes and all of the characters because they
are so well defined and their motivations are worked on and
changed throughout the show. And then the love story, how

(11:13):
that progresses and how deeply they fall in love, but also how
deeply upsetting like them getting together actually is.
If for the female lead and the weight of history on top of it
because this is based on true events in Korean history, which
we can go over. But for the most part I thought

(11:38):
I did. I did this wrong.
Like I've rewatched this completely wrong.
And yes, I it took me even longer than probably it should
have because I was sitting theretaking notes.
If I didn't have to stop the episode to take notes, maybe I
could have binged my way throughthe rewatch a lot easier and
shut my brain off. But I don't think this is a show

(11:58):
that you can watch absentmindedly.
I don't think that this is a show that you can watch
casually. I think this is a very rich
text. This is as close as you can get
to prestige television without calling it prestige television,
and it was beyond the scope of what I think a lot of people

(12:19):
were expecting from the show, especially at the time of
release. And I remember sitting there and
watching the episodes kind of asthey were airing towards the end
of its run because I don't like waiting for episodes.
So I like waited till the last like 3 or 4 episodes were
preparing to start the journey of the Red Sleeve.

(12:40):
But everyone was really, really into it.
It was an extremely popular showand I think it helped to have
the week to week format to unpack.
Agreed. Definitely.
So you thought it was kind of overwhelming, the experience?
Yeah, I didn't have your experience of binge watching it
and I was considering doing a rewatch and honestly ran out of

(13:00):
time because like you said, the episodes were pretty long, got
longer and a lot was happening and it was a lot to digest.
So definitely I liked it and I would rewatch it, but I think
just like there was like aspectsof it I liked more than others
and I thought was like more worthy in a way.
But, and I kind of was wonderingwhat were the like writers and

(13:21):
directors even thinking and making this.
I'm not sure if it follows a novel very closely, so I don't
know if it plays out like this in the novel, but like why was
it written like this if that makes sense.
Well, I'd love to know like why you were questioning the the
writing style on it or what why they pursued it the way they
did. Yeah, I think the yeah, the plot

(13:43):
really not notes so much like the lines or anything like that,
or even the pacing. But the plot we're like, I don't
want to spoil it, but there's like so much happening in one
sense in the beginning and then like all this other stuff
happening. That's not every drama, right?
But no, it's like in other they're exploring so many
characters, so many aspects of palace life, for example, that

(14:03):
it almost loses its way. But they do keep a thread in
there to tie it sort of togetheror at least hang it together.
But I was kind of almost gettinglost in the plot very, you know,
various pot lines and stuff. So.
Yeah, yeah. I would say it is very sweeping
and grand, and again, I think ittook a lot of people by surprise

(14:24):
because it was so detailed. Yes, there was a lot of
competing through lines for yourattention, and I would argue
that the biggest through line that people stuck around for was
just the romance part of it. Yeah.
What did you think of the romance?

(14:46):
I actually had a lot of thoughtsand when we get into the
character part so we can get into more of this, I had a lot
of thoughts of it because I actually liked, you know, I
always I go on some K drama podcast and talk about how I
don't love romance dramas. I like them, I like them, I
don't dislike them, but it's like sometimes they're so
predictable and they kind of follow a formula.
They're very formulaic. And so I'm like, I don't really

(15:06):
want to like watch that all the time.
This one was so unique because she you kind of almost don't
know what she's thinking a lot of the times.
Like you think you know and thenyou're like, maybe she don't, I
don't know, like it's really kind of keeps you on your toes
in one aspect. And then she is, I think they
like the acting was great and the writing for her was great
because she is grappling with somany things herself and her own

(15:29):
self interests and trying to preserve some of her own self
interests. And not she's already the
subject of a king. She's already a court made.
And so there's already so much what am I looking for?
Like reverend subjugation, subjugation.
But I don't think that's right word.
Not subjugation, but more just like she's already like beholden
to all these like rules and customs and he's her, you know,

(15:50):
His Majesty and all that stuff. So there's already that element.
And then the love aspect, she's either she's confused or it's
like confusing or like, and she's a very reserved person,
yet very outspoken person. Like she's very interesting to
me, so. Yes, she's very contradictory.
And I'm not sure, I'm not sure if a lot of people had grace for

(16:14):
that when they were watching theshow.
And there's a few questions thatI got from Instagram that kind
of toy with this idea that we'reheading toward.
Someone asked do you think Eden no thirst negatively warped how
people perceive the show slash female lead as in people and
this might be a little bit of a spoiler, but as in people upset

(16:36):
that she rejects him the fact that she's not in most of
episode 17's 100 minute extension.
So I throw it over to you. What?
What do you think is the answer?Or how do you how do you think
about it? At first when I read this
question I thought it was like where people's thirst over E
June ho like their own thirst warping it, but now I see it's

(17:00):
more so his thirst for her. Really.
Yeah, I don't know cuz that's it's a valid question.
I I interpreted. It the first way really.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. OK.
We'll talk about the ways that Iwas interpreting it.
OK, so, so I think yes, he's like a, he's the king.
And there's a lot of people in general in life and as well as

(17:20):
in dramas who want to be close to the person in power.
So to reject a king does like, Ithink a lot of backflips in
people's minds for them because it's like, how could you reject?
Like the king wants you, So whatare you doing?
You know, kind of thing. And like, why would you ever do
that? And the other aspect of it, she
likes him, generally speaking, as a friend, as a person.

(17:41):
She respects him. It's not like she's like, oh,
gross. Exactly so it's sort of weird
that like she it's like hello and then but yeah, to go to the
thirst thing. He Juno is is Percival and like
charming both in real life and can act that way too in his
acting. So it I think it was hard for I
could see it being difficult forpeople really understanding this

(18:03):
aspect of her. I think they were kind of trying
to write her as like an independent thinks for herself
woman female lead, but it's I could see it backfiring because
of like why would you reject himon multiple levels?
Why? You know, right, like he wants
you so bad. He wants.
You like so bad. Like he's like damn bad for you

(18:24):
girl. What is the problem is I think
how people approached it. And I had a lot more.
I was a lot softer toward the female lead and her.
I don't want to say confusion because I'm not sure if the
whole time she was confused. I just think she was really
resolute in ways that were unexpected for the audience and

(18:46):
obviously for the male lead who was genuinely confused and
upset, jealous halfway, like baked over her, like reaction to
the rejection. And it's multiple.
It's not just one time that she rejects him.
It's like over and over again throughout the show.
And again, she's just not. And we can get into like a lot

(19:10):
more about her characterization.But suffice it to say, I think I
respected her decision and understood her a lot.
Same. Maybe it's because we are wise.
Because. I wrote like a really in depth
review that I didn't get the chance to look back on on the

(19:34):
blog, on the Tabock blog. And it's a really freaking long.
I don't know. I don't think I have it in me to
do that again, write another long review like that, but I can
vaguely remember doing like a whole section on her and why she
would behave the way she behaved.

(19:54):
I agree. I mean, I didn't write 1 yet,
but I could. Yeah, I mean, the whole show
could probably warrant a little thesis or something, but you
know, it's not. I don't think it's as simple as
boy looks girl, girl looks guy. Obviously, they're going to get
together. Which I wonder is why people
maybe didn't, all of them didn'treceive it well because because

(20:16):
of the K drama kind of formula and expectations and you think
you know what's going to happen usually or a lot of times, this
one is really off in many ways with how their love story kind
of goes. And I don't mean off in like a
bad way, but just unexpected. And there's so much nuance that
we normally don't consider or have to consider when you're
watching K drama. I agree there are some fun facts

(20:38):
that we can get into and then another person said would love
to talk about the real history of it all so we can do a little
history corner after this handful of fun facts.
So Pakisu, the actress Pakisu from Dear M most recently was
first offered the lead female role but declined.

(21:01):
Is Dear M that drama that was like not aired or something or
is that a different? 10 I am not sure OK, but casting
what ifs. The lead role for Igeno also was
initially offered to Kim Kyong Nam and I was like, oh man,
that's a swerve too. He was most recently shown up on

(21:24):
the Tabak feed in the K drama connection.
So I was like shocked that they offered it to both of these
people and they turn it down. Well, I know that OK, so dear M,
which I only know for because ofmy K pop fandomness.
There was going to star. It did.
It does also star NCT 127's Jay Hun and it was supposed to air,
but then the lead actress was accused of bullying back when

(21:49):
that was taking over everything in Korea, allegations of school
bullying or or school violence. And then they like hiatus the
show and it it filmed like a long time ago and it came out
now literally this year. So I I wonder we might not have
ever seen this if if she had been cast because because of
that, those allegations, it was her, it was her, it was her yes.

(22:12):
So our actress Park Hestu was accused of school violence and
that was in 2021. So again, if if she was in this
and it's had been like an editing or something because
when did this kind of later 2020?
Came out in Swell. Started airing in November of
2020. One this would have been not
even this would not have seen the light of day because her
other drama DRM was like about to start airing when this all

(22:33):
came up and and they put that away till 2025 S for four years
they put DRM away yeah yeah, crazy sorry, but.
I thought DRM aired? It started airing.
It started airing and they had to stop because of all of this
because I was waiting for J Hun.They aired like two or three

(22:55):
episodes is is what I recall. And then they put the full thing
out this year and yeah, now it says K drama 2025.
Like you can't read that. But anyway it says.
Wow, it's all making, it's all coming together.
OK, so Pakay SU Kim Kyung Nam and then the drama is the first

(23:17):
acting role for Ijuno since he was discharged from the South
Korean military on March 20th, 2021.
It's a comeback drama for Ijuno and I.
Like I said, this is 17 episodeswhich is highly unusual.
On December 9th, 2021, it was announced that the series would
be extended by 1 episode due to its popularity and would end

(23:37):
with 17 episodes. I'm curious, what did you think
of the 17th episode? Was it necessary?
I think that of every drama, every drama's last episode, I
just want to die. It's like, it's like we've
already resolved all the main plot points before this, and now
we're just, I don't know what we're doing, getting more

(23:58):
viewership. Just freestyling.
Yeah, the. Show obviously was nominated for
a bunch of awards, including Picks on awards.
It was nominated for 123-4567 Picks on awards in 2022, and the
only person who won was Egino for Best Actor.

(24:19):
Wow. Yeah.
Everybody else was just nominated best actress for Issa
Young, best director for Chung Ji N, best drama, obviously best
supporting actor, best supporting actress and a
technical award for cinematography.
So yeah, it's beautiful. Yeah, it's absolutely stunning.
Like, the whole thing is beautiful.
I was taking screenshots just because I wanted to because it

(24:41):
was so beautiful. The show is different in that
way as well, that the cinematography is so elevated,
so, so much more elevated. What did you think of the OST
like before we get into the history?
Segment, I liked it. I didn't have like super strong
feelings about it, but yeah, it was really nice.
Went with it. The fact that you kind of don't

(25:02):
remember it is why how you know it's like fitting.
Yeah, yeah, I same, same. All right.
So the history, I don't know if you want to take the reins on
this because you've actually read the book from the Princess.
What's what's her name? In the show, it's Heg Young.
Well, that's her name later, butyes, her name is Hong Hei Bin.

(25:25):
Something that is big in the show that you may notice if you
didn't know the history, is thatthere's a big deal over his.
The king, who is the king at first is his grandfather because
his father is not alive and his father is not alive.
And this is all based on in reallife, his father was Prince Sado
and Sado. Prince Sado was going to be the

(25:48):
king. He ends up marrying whoever's
name I just said Hung. Yeah, he well, Lady Heck young
or something. OK well anyway so he marries his
wife. They're like children cuz this
is Joe scenera time. So they get married at like age
9. They don't consummate it till
like age 15. You said 9.

(26:09):
Yeah, I said 9. I said 9, Correct.
This is, this is, you know, thisis what we're dealing with.
They're nine years old when theybecome married, but they don't
consummate till they're like about 1415 years old.
They don't consummate their marriage.
And all this is of course like documented, celebrated,
etcetera. Now when he's about 11, this is
Prince Sado I'm talking about. Prince Sado does not feature in
the drama. I just want to make that clear.
So if you're like. He's like in a couple of like

(26:31):
tiny scenes and. That's right, Prince Sado starts
exhibiting signs of mental unwellness or I don't know,
there's like a lot happening. He just starts having like both
fainting spells, a lot of fainting spells.
As he gets older, he's married and he also takes some
concubines and things, you know,that is normal for him to do.
And although he's like the Prince, they don't let him be

(26:53):
the king and his father, which is the grandfather of Juno's
character. He doesn't let him take any kind
of responsibility, mate. Probably because I'm guessing he
like sees that he sort of like, yeah, he's a little unwell.
So as he gets older, he starts like bossing around the King's,
the court maids. He starts killing them very
gruesomely. Sorry, not spoiler, but trigger

(27:14):
alert. I guess he is beheading them and
like brandishing their heads around palace.
So the thing about the rules of the chosen dynasty is that if
you're guilty or, and I don't know if this is only for
nobility or royalty or everybody, this is the case.
But if you're guilty, your family's also guilty by
association. So he's getting so out of hand.
They're sort of just like, I mean, we just have to like, we

(27:35):
have to kill him. Like we can't.
He can't rule, he can't do anything.
He already has at this point hishis son, which is this who gets
played in this drama by June Hall.
And so they're like, what do we do with what do we do with him?
That if they kill him, the wholefamily needs to be killed.
His wife, who is like becomes later later known as Lady
Hegyong and Isan, who is later called Zhangzhou when he becomes

(27:55):
king. Eventually they would have had
to have been executed with him. So, so to deal with this,
basically what they do is they. OK, trig all the trigger
warnings because I know what's coming, but like maybe you
don't. So if you're a little squeamish
or you don't like violence or suicides, that's.
Yeah, and he, by the way, he knows Sado.

(28:18):
Prince Sado knows that he he's not well looked upon, not well
favored by his father, and his father is pretty aloof towards
him. But Lady Heck Young says like he
treats them very well, like the,the grandchild and herself who's
the wife of King Prince Sado. They he doesn't sort of hold it
against them that they're part of this family.
So he needs to execute his son basically, which is crazy in and
of itself. And pause.

(28:39):
Pause, because a little bit of his antics are talked about in
the show, and specifically the story of him walking into his
chambers, holding the severed head of a eunuch whom he had
killed and forcing the ladies inwaiting and his wife to view it.
So that is explicitly stated in the show.
And of course, he's killing palace staff, as you said,

(29:01):
assaulting and raping many of the court ladies and ladies in
waiting and they're not doing anything.
The King. Because he's, he is going, he's
supposed to be the king eventually.
So they're like, well, what the hell do we do?
So all of these antics become kind of unbearable for
everybody. Like he's also suffering health
issues. He himself tries to he falls
into he like throws himself intoa.

(29:21):
Tries to commit suicide. Yes, multiple times his wife's
like listen, he was never crazy towards me like he doesn't try
to Yes, she was like violence with her the son toward.
Me. Never hit me.
Right, but he's kind of just unraveling it how and I don't
even know what the diagnosis could even possibly be because
like I said, the physical symptoms of like lots of
fainting and other weird habits.He's highly superstitious and

(29:44):
just kind of had paranoia. Maybe I'm again, I'm not a
mental. Person but he just I think he
went clinically insane. And it started, like I said it
at childhood. That's the thing that sticks out
to me is I started in childhood.So then they're like, but if he
kills himself successfully, we kind of we kind of win.
It's a win win obviously. And I would say, I will say that

(30:06):
they took this not lightly. So we're kind of joking here on
some level, but it's all true and it's not a joke.
So they basically tell him to get into this rice container.
Yes, they tell him to climb intoa wooden rice chest roughly 4
feet square on a hot July day in17. 6 which they wrap with like
straw and ropes. Many, many ropes, so he cannot

(30:26):
get out. Get out.
Yeah. They don't give him food and he
knows kind of like what's happening, you know, he's like
conscious of what's happening. So he gets in there conscious
and they just leave. They just leave palace staff.
They leave him somewhere. It's like not like near
everybody because they don't want to hear him in there.
They can hear. They someone checks on him a few
days later and they can hear him.
He's like, yo, he can still talk.
Yeah, this is I. Mean we don't we have to laugh

(30:49):
to keep from like, yeah, being really gruesome yeah, it's
gruesome I mean it's gruesome inthe way that history usually is
so. Right.
So after about 8 days, they go to check on him again, they
don't hear anything. They bring him back to the
palace or wherever he was put tolike the court area, and they
open it up in front of his dad and he's gone.

(31:09):
So that was like crazy. And what's remarkable about Lady
Hig Young and again, I kind of wish this drama did have more
elements of that in it because it's fascinating.
But then this would have been like a 30 episode drama.
I think it's had the bones of it.
Like it probably should have just been a 30 episode entire
saga. Could have been, yeah.
Could have easily been so for her part in history.

(31:31):
This is the person who is Isan'smother.
She writes a book called the memoirs of lady Hagyoung and
this book is fascinating becauseit's basically an autobiography
or like it says memoirs. She releases it in four or she
writes it in four sections over the course of many years.
She's like dies at age 80, so she's like towards the end of
her life. By this point, her son Isan is

(31:52):
has passed away and his son is the king.
And after they put in the rice chest and all that stuff, Sado
in the rice chest, no one is allowed to talk about him
anymore. Like there's a big censorship.
It's super taboo. Do not talk about him, don't
mention anything. The other issue with all of this
is the grandfather king is himself the issuance, I believe,
of a concubine. And so there's like some slow

(32:13):
birth. He's not whatever anyway, or
maybe Sado is, but anyway, so that's another reason.
And they need to legitimize now his son because his son, which
is Isan is going to become the new like heir basically.
So what they do to legitimize him because he's a traitor and
they talk about this in the show, he's a traitor, you're the
son of a traitor, blah, blah, blah, blah.
So they need to legitimize his like existence.

(32:34):
So after Prince Sado dies, what they do, and I want to remind
the listeners that Prince Sado had an older brother who died
when he was a child himself, which was why, you know, he has
second son. It was going to be Prince and
the future king. So what they do is King
Yongzhou, the grandfather basically is like, you know
what, we're going to change the paperwork of the family
registrars and stuff and royal registrars and say he's adopted

(32:56):
by his uncle, the late Prince. This like, helps this leak from
a legal standpoint, makes it so that he's not affiliated with
Prince Dado because, again, no one's allowed to talk about this
despite this everyone in court and kind of the hot Goss in
town. Yeah.
It's like, is, is any of this legit?
Right. Is it like, and they're kind of
watching like, is in the show they show like, you know, we're

(33:17):
trying to see if, like, Isan is gonna be like his dad or not.
Like, is he gonna go mad? Is he gonna start beheading
people about left and right? Like, what's gonna go on with
with that? But for his part, he's always
very reverential towards his father.
He doesn't view it as like, my dad was crazy and therefore had
like, you know, I'm just going to dissociate myself from him.
He actually honors his father a lot.
Yeah. And I think that's the issue

(33:39):
that I think I have with the character Yisan, which is
Igino's character, is that he really, really loves his father
but doesn't have any grace or hereally holds it against his

(34:01):
grandfather, the king, for taking such measures against him
and basically forcing him to commit.
Suicide. I think part of this is because
in the memoirs, the Princess or the Queen or whatever she was, I
know she was in. Queen, but this this was not are
you talking about you sons mother or his grandmother There

(34:23):
wrote the memoir that you're that you read.
It's his mom that wrote, not his.
OK, OK, so it's his mom who write it.
It is Hekion. Princess Hekion.
Yes. OK, yes, but her name is
something else in the show because.
Because it's not. Because she changes.
Yeah. Yeah.
Because once he, once Esan becomes a king, his name becomes
Zhangjo. Yeah.
And his mother takes on a title because Esan's busy, like,

(34:45):
honoring Prince Ado. There's a whole fortress
basically dedicated to him. There's like, all this stuff he,
like, honors his father like crazy.
And in the memoirs, Lady Hegyoung says Prince Sada was
mad, a mad Prince, as it were. And he blames like, his his
dad's like, so frustrated with him.
He's like, why are you like this, basically.
And he's like, because you don'tlove me.
And it's not. I don't.
I mean, this is just the like the ramblings of someone who is

(35:07):
not what hasn't been. Well, whatever.
And but she does point out like,you know, when his kids, his
children are born, his grandfather isn't that young Joe
King? Young Joe is not that
interesting. Yeah.
Sorry. There's so much going on.
He's not. He's sort of like distance,
emotionally distant for sure to son and isn't that in love with
him? We don't know why, right?
We could be because he lost his first born, maybe at a young

(35:28):
age, Maybe he saw kind of the kind of nod and conformist to be
a put a politely nature of Prince Sado and was like, oh,
hell, no, like I don't want him.You know me to be like the
person ruling the country, right, And so he has this like
emotional distance and whatever.And again, the Prince Sado feels
that he blames him for it. Potentially.
My guess is that Yisan, later King Jong Jo, holds out again

(35:51):
against him because of that reason.
Maybe he kind of buys into this theory that like Sado went even
madder because he had this lack of affection or lack of love or
felt at least from his father AKA son's grandfather.
Yeah, I couldn't get behind his reverential tones toward his
father, Prince Sado, who went mad like he bar none, went mad

(36:16):
and killed a lot of innocent people, raped a lot of innocent
women. And I mean, I'm not even sure if
history maybe does him just likesays the whole story because it
sounds pretty horrific. But I understand wanting to

(36:36):
acknowledge that this is your father, especially after all the
lies and like the deception in this grand like political legal
scheme to make him legitimate when he comes into power.
He's like fuck all that. I am the son of Prince Auto Fine
fine fine. But also, that's wild.
Like your dad was wild. I'm.

(36:58):
I think building the fortress and like moving his burial spot
to somewhere where it's even like better than it was and all
this kind of stuff that he did do and like he kind of like
fashions himself and his titles at about like an after Prince
Otto. Like he's like, I'm not letting
history forget this guy because during his childhood he was,
they weren't allowed to even talk about him or acknowledge
him or mention that he ever existed.

(37:19):
So I think part of it is that now I'm not excusing a single
thing Prince Otto did at all. I'm just sort of trying to
explain where some of this reverence came from.
But I also agree that it's a little bit just a little
misguided to build them a. Fortress super misguided and
super like I, I have crazy eyes.I'm just like what?
What are you doing? So King Jong Zhou Akaison's

(37:41):
mother's writing of this memoir when she's and releasing it when
she's like 80, whatever years older, too close to that age.
It's so fascinating because she is really torn about writing
this. And of the four, like I said,
she had kind of four stages of life in which she wrote these,
these memoirs. And the last one was about Sado
himself, everything else about whatever else going on in the
court and whatever the last one is the only one that talks about
exactly what happened with him through her memory and her

(38:02):
recollections and what the his death and all that and how she
was feeling. And it's she says, I'm writing
this for for my grandson. So son's son becomes the king,
who's the current king at the time of this, like basically
being published. And so she's like, I want him to
know like the truth about we've had this hidden this too long.
This has been taboo's topic topic for too long.
And it's just such a big part ofhistory.
She's not even I don't think sheeven necessarily trying to

(38:24):
justify. I mean, definitely not.
She was like totally freaked outtoo.
And you can read in her writing that she's like, Oh my God, he
went crazy. We don't know why he's acting
like this. We don't know what to like do to
make it better. He's fainting, he's crying, he's
throwing himself in the well. And so she it's really like
turmoil like you feel it. And she wrote this like in the
said what 17108 hundred. So it's like really crazy.
And I do recommend if anyone is interested in this to definitely

(38:46):
check it out because a lot of mypodcasts about women in Korea,
Korean women. She's a woman in this chosen era
writing this and it's going against her king, which was
young Joe who said don't talk about him ever again.
Don't talk about Prince, although ever again, she's
writing it maybe in honor of herson who did have this reverence
for better or for worse. She's writing for her grandson
who has no clue about any of this and for and for history

(39:08):
really. So this is like a really just
from that aspect. Interesting.
And there's some, you know, other stuff about her Josen era
life. And this is a book that at the
time a lot of people were writing books in Chinese.
Mostly men were writing books and they're writing in in a
certain specific type of writtenChinese, literary Chinese, I
believe, whereas she was writingthis in Hongo.
She wanted this to be an accessible story.
Again, I don't think anyone's defending him in the book at

(39:29):
least, or she isn't and I'm not,but it's it's something that
happened and they kept it, trying to keep it shut for so
long, right? And he he was trying, he was
trying to like elevate him, but she's just trying to be like,
here's what happened. Right, OK, so flash forward.
So we're on Esan, which is Ejinos character and he becomes
Dong Jo the Great. It's the 22nd monarch of the

(39:49):
chosen dynasty in Korea, so there's a lot of characters that
actually did exist and one of them is Princess Wawan, who's
totally real. After a 1762 to 1777, some
members of the Neuron, which is a faction, attempted to depose
him for his relationship. And Neuron is also like a, like
a political party as well. Yes, both like a yeah.

(40:12):
So he was again getting thwartedbecause of his relation to his
father Prince Otto and his half brothers Prince Unjung and
Prince Unung and Prince Unshan were all in on it.
And his grand uncle Hung Inhan and Jung Hu Kyung, who was the
adopted son of Princess Hua Wan.So Hua Wan real and her adopted

(40:35):
son, all real. And they were all against him
and his ascension. And even after, when he already
ascended, they were like, fuck that guy, we don't want him as a
kid. Yeah.
They didn't recognize his like put on legitimacy or even his
basically being appointed as theair.
Yeah, in 1755, one year before King Yong Jo's death, the old

(40:56):
man, King Chong Jo, so that's Ijeno's character, was appointed
Regent. So that's true.
He was appointed Regent. However, the king, his grandpa,
did not give him any military power.
So that is absolutely true that it is depicted in the show.
Jung Jo was always threatened bysome of his officials who were
against his reign. He was able to overcome these
challenges with the help of HongKong Young and others.

(41:17):
Hong Kong Kyung is the royal preceptor.
He is depicted in the show. He is kind of turns into an
antagonist, which is all true tohistory.
E General's character led the Renaissance of Chosen, but was
initially busy continuing the policy of Yongzhou's magnificent
harmony policy of political reconciliation between the
parties. So that is also said in the show

(41:41):
that he is trying to be kind of bipartisan, kind of in the
middle, keep the peace between the fact, just like his
grandfather did. He cultivated knowledge of
humanities and philosophy, Neo Confucianism.
He was known to be studious and well read.
That's also very true and depicted in the show.
He was very studious, loved the library, always in library.

(42:04):
Yeah. And in 1800, Ijano's character
Zhongzhou died suddenly under uncertain circumstances at the
age of 47, without seeing much of his life's work come to
fruition under his son, Son Zhou.
There are many books regarding the mystery behind his death,
and speculation as to the cause of his death continues even
today. So we don't know why he died at

(42:25):
such an early age in 47, when his mother lived on to be 80.
Something that's crazy. Now let's talk about the female
lead. Took him.
In 1762, at the age of 10, She entered the royal palace.
And because of her father's relationship with Pongsang Hong
Clan, Lady Song, which is her formal name, Lady Song became a

(42:48):
personal maid of King Chong Zhou's mother, Crown Princess
Hey. So it's true.
She was serving his mother, Crown Princess Hey, which is
kind of how she's known. In the show, we were referring
to her as Lady Heck Young. That's her official name.
After he came to power in 1773, she, alongside Princess Tong

(43:08):
Neon and Princess Tong Sung, transcribed the classic novel,
And I'm not even going to try and pronounce this, comprising
10 volumes, 10 books to Korean, and that is depicted in the
show. They do absolutely sit there and
transcribe a bunch of books, buthere you can see it's 10
volumes, 10 books. Sometime before 1782 she

(43:30):
received Chong. Joel's grace means they had sex
and was promoted to a court ladyof the 5th senior rank.
It's recorded that she was pregnant 2 times between 1780
and 1782, but both pregnancies ended in miscarriage.
So in the show, you don't you don't see these miscarriages.

(43:50):
On October 13th, 1782, Ladies Hung gave birth to her first
child, Yi Son. That same day, she became a
royal consort after being elevated to the third rank of
Soyung. Almost three months later, in
late December 1782, her son was given the title of Prince Royal.
Following year, she's promoted to the first rank of Bin, and
Chengdu personally chose the prefix Hui, meaning appropriate

(44:15):
slash fitting. And you do see that process in
the show of him writing out the characters and choosing her
name, which is Hui I think is how you pronounce it.
On March 20th, 1784, Lady Song gave birth to an unnamed
daughter who died a year after birth on July.
A lot of trauma here, a lot of sadness happening with children
dying in miscarriages. On July 2nd, 1784, Yi Son was

(44:38):
invested as Crown Prince, but hedied during an epidemic on June
6th, 1786. So that is depicted in the show
that their little Crown Prince son dies of.
In the show, it's measles, Yeah.Measles was really going around
at that time too, so that's semiaccurate.
Four months after the death of her son, Song, UI Bin died of a

(45:01):
disease during the last month ofher 5th pregnancy, that is
September 14th, 1786. She was 32 years old.
The unborn child died with her. King Chong Zhou wrote her
epitaph where he described his grief and declared his love for
her. It was said that Lady Song was
the only woman he loved among his wives.

(45:23):
King Zhongzhou planted 26,000 trees in the graveyard which is
known today as Hyocheng Park andis situated in Yongsang
District, Seoul. So you can still walk amongst
the trees that each and those character King Zhongzhou planted
in memory of her. He's a sentimental guy.

(45:43):
Sentimental to 26,000 trees. That's nothing to sneeze at.
And a fortress. Yeah, and the fortress for his
killer dad. So a lot that we have unpacked
here for the historical context and a lot that they got right.
And unfortunately, as I just said, she dies at the end of the

(46:03):
show, which I think spoiler alert, spoiler alert, rocked a
lot of people, rocked a lot of people.
That's life, baby. Yeah, I had.
I had known that it was about a true story and it was based on
history. And so I, halfway through the

(46:24):
show, looked up her and him and everything and was like, Oh, no,
this isn't going to end well is how I went into the last half of
the show. I'm not sure if other people
knew or took any sort of initiative to try and, like,
gird their loins or shore up defenses before the last couple

(46:48):
of episodes. Did you know the history or were
you aware going into the finale episodes what was going to
happen? You know, I did not because my
whole thing was like my kind of previous knowledge was about
Prince Sado really. And then I knew that his son was
a very well received respect. That's why there's been many
dramas and novels and whatnot about him because he did make

(47:12):
Chosen really a prosperous dynasty towards its towards the
end of the Josen Dynasty. And it's really, really
prosperous. He was seen as like pretty good
as far as with his ruling capabilities, trying to keep the
factions from being too misaligned and trying to keep
everyone united and harmonious like you said.
But I didn't know that this his drama was going to follow
history so much to AT and I didn't know anything about

(47:32):
dogging so. Yeah, yeah.
Pretty heartbreaking. And that's, I don't want to, I
feel like that's the biggest spoiler.
But also if we were going to talk about the history it was
going to have, it was going to come out eventually that like,
sorry, bad news, she doesn't make it.
And of course, he doesn't make it either.

(47:52):
There is a question that I got on Instagram, somebody asked how
do you interpret the ending? And I'm actually just going to
leave this for the spoiler section because the last 10
minutes are actually kind of open to interpretation maybe.
But yeah, we have a lot more to unpack.
There's so much here that I would love to talk about, talk

(48:16):
through. So without further ado, I'm just
going to ask you how many soju bottles you would give the show
out of five, and then we're going to get into the spoiler
section. Well, this is hard.
It's so beautiful and so lovely and so much I did love about it.
I'm going to say 3.5 soju bottle. 3.5 OK, I'm going to
swerve and say 5 out of five soju bottles because I really

(48:38):
love the show. I really resonated with it.
I loved it the first time, I loved it the second time I
watched it. And again, my only regret is
that I watched it too fast on the rewatch.
Didn't savor it enough, but really so much that I
appreciated about it. And we'll get into that right

(48:59):
after this. Excuse me, I can't tell.
I can't tell you no. I have no tingle.
Oh, sorry. Swear discussing shirts?
What? Welcome back.
We're on the other side of spoilers.
We are going to maybe spoil what's left, talk at length

(49:21):
about the show and get into specifics.
So if you don't want to be spoiled, I'm not sure if the
ending is necessarily a spoiler,but perhaps it is.
But anyway, let's talk about thequestion that this person on
Instagram asked us, which was how do we interpret the ending?

(49:42):
I think in this instance, the writers and director knew that
was going to be somewhat unsatisfactory ending as far as
AK drama, romance, plot point standpoint, and they wanted to
find a way to give people something to like latch onto.
So a sort of happy ending thing.And they sort of foreshadowed
when she's like when it's spring, we can watch the flowers

(50:02):
bloom, right? Or whatever she said.
And so they kind of made that like what happens?
And you could interpret it to melike they're in heaven or
somehow reunited. And maybe it's a past memory.
I can see, like, the confusion as to what exactly is it that
we're looking at. Yeah.
But I do think that whatever it is meant to be is sort of vague
on purpose. So the viewer who may feel
dissatisfied by the death of dogging can be like, well, at

(50:24):
least like this is here, right? I almost feel I'm conflicted
first of all because to me it istechnically a happy ending.
I agree. She did marry the king.
She did become his concubine. They had children.
What's sad is that life happened.

(50:45):
The child died of measles. And that's just like, you know
what I'm saying? Like life happens.
She's had miscarriages that are not shown on screen.
Unfortunately, she dies an earlydeath and then he follows many
years later are still, he's pretty young, 47.
I'm like, but they still got together.

(51:08):
But they were still together. They had all this time together.
The other thing that was stressing me out by the end of
this drama was like him not knowing her feelings.
And so I think the one good thing, I guess like or he was
confused, like maybe she doesn'tlet me me, she doesn't let me
like and they they managed to get her to say it like at some
point towards the end. Yeah, towards the end.
OK, yes, what, what let me squirrel that away for like, OK,

(51:30):
for for the second-half of this conversation.
But as far as interpreting the ending, I feel like in a
simplistic way it is a happy ending because I got together in
real life in in their natural lives and then once he died they
are reunited and I on 2nd watch I think this is all in his head.

(51:53):
Oh, you know, what I was thinking is because both he and
she have these moments where they're like, can we just go
back to how things were? Can we go back to how things
were? And the answer is honestly, no.
And maybe that's like setting usup for like, hey, we're going to
be let down really bad in a bad way.
But when you know how like when people die in in K dramas,
sometimes they die either the age that they are when they
died. So in this case 47.

(52:14):
And sometimes they die at like whatever was the peak happiest
time of their life. So age like 21 or something.
I'm making it up. And so I noticed he he's at the
end of the show where he is alive.
He's got like a little goatee that was big with the Royals
back then. He doesn't have it when he's
reunited with dogging. And so if this could represent
his last kind of dying thoughts and dreams he's having as he's
passing away or he's like in hisversion of heaven or afterlife

(52:37):
or whatever. And so he's not no longer the
king with the goatee that's beenreigning over chosen for a long
time now. He's now aged whatever he was.
And he was always in that littleannex area with with dogging.
Yeah. I think it's it's a dying man's
last thought, last dream, last thought, whatever.
Yes, she does in that same episode say, you know, I want to

(52:59):
see the flowers with you. It will blossom once more
someday and when that happens, everything will be OK.
I would like to go see the flowers with you, just like the
old days when you were still a Crown Prince and IA palace maid.
Absolutely, she says that. But also, that's like a
desperate wish from her at this point.
She's already been so disappointed, so heartbroken and

(53:24):
so caged in the palace that thisis just a desperate like, let's
go back to the time when we werehappiest and it'll be OK.
When that happens, it'll be everything will be fine.
Everything will be right and OK.I think when he died and wakes
up young back in the same scene as before, in this idyllic

(53:45):
moment, I still think this is this is in his head because this
idyllic moment we saw before in the show and she was saying in
her she's we're getting a lot ofher narration and her inner
thoughts throughout the show. And during that exact moment,
the first time we saw it, she was saying, I was doing nothing

(54:07):
all day long, just sitting around waiting for you.
And now he's just sitting there fucking fanning his face as he's
lounging on her legs. And she specifically said
something about this is uncomfortable for me, you laying
on my legs. And he's just like, oh,
whatever, Just so relaxed and atpeace and having a wonderful day

(54:31):
with one of his concubines. And that is the moment that he
goes back to a moment that was wonderful and idyllic and
beautiful for him, but that it was completely tinged with
sadness the first time we saw it.
So to me, I'm like, why would she go back to that moment?

(54:51):
Why the fuck would she go back to that moment?
But she did express she wanted to go back to when you're you
were the Prince and I was the maid.
So I mean, there's that argumenttoo.
Right, but she wasn't a palace maid.
No, later she wasn't. I mean, a lot of this I think is
like the toothpaste is out of the tube.
And like a lot of the message behind some of this is like both
characters are kind of like, canwe go back?
Can we go back to how it was? Can we go back?

(55:13):
Even when she's with her friends, she's like, can we just
go back to like how it was when we were younger?
And you can't 'cause life happens and 'cause there's all
this other politicking and everything going on.
Yeah, absolutely. Like I said, I think this is all
in his head. He goes back to a moment that is
perfect for him, definitely not perfect for her.
This is obviously when he's already the king.

(55:34):
She's not a palace maid. It doesn't fit the criteria of
what she wanted to go back to. So I don't believe.
And then they do see the flowers, which is some something
that she did want was to see theflowers.
In this moment, he ponders if heactually missed her, or if he
just missed an idealized past. All right.

(55:54):
And I was like, oh, that's really powerful.
And he begs her, please love me,Please love me because he's
still not sure. Yeah, he didn't like hearing it
from her friend, and he wasn't necessarily convinced by
whatever she was saying. Because part of it, I think that
was going to be for everything anyways, because he's the king
and she's the subject of the king regardless of concubine
status or whatever, mother of the Crown Prince, she's always

(56:16):
going to have to say what he wants to hear.
Right, exactly. I love this is a tangent, a
little bit of a tangent, but it's sort of related.
There is a prevailing notion among men that like, oh, if a
woman smiles at me or, or, you know, nice to me, she's just
nice to me. She's totally into me.

(56:37):
And the thing, the first thing people say to rebut that is were
you paying her for a service? Were you in a coffee shop?
You were you at her job? Like, was there a reason for her
to be nice to you? Maybe she wanted tips like you
know what I'm saying? Like.
This is not only that, it kind of reminds me of like the me too

(56:58):
stuff, just not in the sense that any of this is me too, but
the hashtag me too movement where a lot of people realize
that realizing maybe for the first time that when there's an
imbalance of power, then there'sa lot of things that get skewed.
Like did he? I think that's where some of her
like moments of like, does she or doesn't she?
Is she exactly? Well she has to love him cuz
that's her king and she's that'slike, you know, did.

(57:18):
She have a choice. Like think, yeah, think about
it. Did she have a choice?
So applying to him and their situation, yeah, she was going
to wait on you, do whatever you wanted, fan you in the sun, let
you make her legs fall asleep because you're laying on them
with your peft. Because she has no other choice.

(57:40):
She is literally Either she was your basic slave in the palace
as a palace maid, or she is now your sexual slave as a
concubine. There is no choice here.
There's an illusion of choice inthe show.
I love that she expresses it, that they have her character

(58:00):
Espresso. Like I didn't want this.
I did not want this. My God, I didn't ask.
That's also in the final episode.
But to wrap up the freaking final final ending bit is his
voice over says, I do not care if this is the past.
I do not care if this is a dream.
I do not care if this is death. I choose this moment when I can

(58:20):
be with you and I will hope thatthis moment never passes.
May this moment last forever. So it kind of skews toward this
is all in his head because he's he kind of recognizes like this
is too good to be true. The thing that throws it all in
question is that you then hear her voiceover say, And so this

(58:42):
moment became our eternity. So you're like, okay, wait, was
she actually there? Did he summon her spirit,
essence, whatever to be here with him in his head?
Or is this their eternity? Is are they?
Is she even said in the afterlife, ignore me, Yes, don't
look at me and he got to say. I don't think that she's really

(59:06):
there. I think this is still all in his
head and he wants her to be happy, to be there for eternity
or however long that moment lasts for them.
So I maybe that's a bit of a pessimistic angle on it, is that
they didn't spend the afterlife together.
I don't think she wanted that. I don't think she wanted that

(59:26):
either. OK, so we're on the same page
about that. OK, so let's move on to the.
I don't know if we have to. I think we're working backwards
on this because because did she or did she not love him?
Was the question that he wanted answered throughout the show?
I think she did love him. It was just complicated.

(59:49):
Very. It was just extremely
complicated. I think it's super telling that
on her deathbed she says to bring her friends.
She's like go get my friends, I want to see them and her
motherly. Blow, by the way.
Oh my God, Oh my God, what a fucking blow to have your
motherly figure, this palace maid who you've known all your

(01:00:12):
life, go against your last wishes and bring the king.
She was like, why are you here? Yeah.
I just love that final moment because he was like, you didn't
want to see me. And she's like, I wanted to see
my friends. Like we he had no respect.

(01:00:33):
I feel for that bond that the friends had.
I mean, she's went on to say, when you see me in your next
life, just pass on by. Ignore me because I don't want
to deal with you. I I might love you.
I might respect you. I might, you know, be with you
now. And I chose to be with you now.

(01:00:53):
It was always my, she says. I was, it was my choice.
But she also says I want to livethe way I want in my next life.
She also says like I would have left you somehow or some way, no
matter how I had to, had I not at least somewhat wanted to be
here. Exactly.
But what was? What would that look like?
Horrible. It would be horrible.
For her, yeah, yeah, not really that feasible, yeah.

(01:01:17):
It would be a shit life. It was never going to be.
She was going to live in the palace as a palace made with her
friends for the rest of her life.
It sucks because like that's life for some in some regard
with for everyone. A lot of things is out of are
out of your control. You can't shoot, you know,
choose to live a certain way. She she all she wanted was like
some level of like liberation, freedom.

(01:01:39):
All of her life was like some kind of transactional thing in a
way, because it's like her father in the store in the drama
was like the guard for Prince Otto and Prince Otto dies.
All his guards have to die too. I don't know if it's a guilt by
association thing or why, but they execute her father.
She had separated from her brother in the show and so and
her mom has like, left Earth as well because of all this.
So she has no real choices. Like, she's like, I'm gonna

(01:02:01):
live. How do I live?
I want to live. How do I live?
I want to retain the small amount of control over my life
that I have. And she has like, next to none.
And so she is like in constant negotiation with, well, do I
just like succumb to like all his advances and become a
concubine? Or do I try to like, could she
have really run away? I mean, look what's happening to
her friends and the other court ladies getting tortured in the
dungeons and all this crazy stuff going on.
So it's not that easy. Someone could have easily found

(01:02:23):
her again and drug her back intobecause where is she supposed to
go? To another Kingdom?
Somewhere else? Like where right?
And there's so many points whereshe tells him explicitly, I
don't want to be your woman. I've never wanted to be your
woman. If I become your concubine, I'm
going to lose everything. Yeah, and it's so complicated

(01:02:45):
because she does, like I said, she likes him in general, maybe
in a on a crush level or whatever.
Does she ever really love him? This show had me questioning
kind of like almost what is loveor what is love for her?
What is love for the two of them?
Yeah. What can it be?
What can it be? Because of the power and
balance, because of her circumstances and the era in
which she's born, era in which she is born and where's her
station life, all that kind of stuff.

(01:03:05):
What could love even look like for either of them, for their,
for their romance? It's very complicated.
Anyway, it's super. Complicated like we said in the
non spoiler section. And it's not a simple Oh well
they like each other, they can just get together.
No baby no. And I have the quote from when
she tells him explicitly like I do not want to be your concubine

(01:03:28):
because I will lose everything. In episode 13, she says if I
become your concubine, I must give you my everything and
nothing of my own will remain. It is human nature to want
everything from the man that yougive your everything to.
However, your Majesty, you cannot give your entire self to
me. I will mainly be just one of the
countless women in your life, but my entire life will change

(01:03:51):
and there will be no going back.I'm afraid that I'll lose
everything. I'm afraid I will lose myself
itself. Maybe this is highly unusual for
the time. I don't know if you there's a
lot of literature from women of the era expressing this type of
resilience and strong sense of identity and self that she

(01:04:14):
exhibits, that she somehow has fostered this in herself.
Even with growing up in the palace as a palace made and
being trained to just accept anything that happens.
She's expendable is the general concept.
We see it when she's a child charging people like 100,

(01:04:36):
whatever the currency is in order to or one, whatever the
whatever the amount is to do little tasks here and there.
I'll read you a story, I'll transcribe something because
she's a little hustler even fromthen.
So even from a child, her childhood, she's trying to
maintain or get some kind of control.
She's forward thinking. She is very kind of she's very,
she knows herself even at it from a young age.

(01:04:59):
And she asserts that all the time and she's very principled.
And so it's all this. It makes it so much harder for
her to just be like a kind of kind of accept like on one hand,
it's it's easy to accept your like station in life.
Even her friend though, who likeruns off of this other guy and
has to be for some reason executed for that.
I didn't totally understand that.
I guess she was going to have his kid or whatever, but
everyone is just like trying to live their life the way they

(01:05:21):
want to on some level, but they're bound by these societal
expectations. The thing about when she's like,
you can't give yours all to me. What also I thought of was when
their son dies and she's in mourning and grief, grieving
over it. He's like, he's like, hey, he's
not only our son, like we have aresponsibility to the entire
country. And I think that was when she
was like, God, I don't like not only does she not have him from

(01:05:43):
a romantic, maybe even sexual standpoint, she doesn't have
only him from this like this aspect of like he's in charge of
this entire country. She's just in ruling chosen.
And so like, I don't have I'm not the main priority here, or I
can't be or the only priority. Here, but 100 percent, 100%,
she's sharing him with other women and she's sharing him with
the responsibility of caring forthe entire nation.

(01:06:05):
And that moment in episode 17 isreally brutal because she's laid
up in bed, not eating, basicallycatatonic after losing her son.
And he literally comes in to yell at her to get up.
Stop mourning. There's over 100 kids who've
died of measles inside the city.You're not the only parent who's

(01:06:25):
lost a child, he says. Hide your sorrows and show
dignity to the people. Crazy.
And that is wild to me. I mean, I'm a woman of 2025 and
that's really really brutal and cruel to me.
But she gets up and says if thisis because I'm a first rank lady

(01:06:47):
of whatever whatever, fuck that.I never wanted this.
And that's when she says I neverwanted this again.
She tells him like this is bullshit.
If I'm expected to be different,act different because I'm a
concubine. News flash, I never wanted to be
here anyway, So I love that reality check that he tries to

(01:07:12):
come in and give her and then she like boomerangs it back and
she's like, well, let me tell you once again, why am I here?
You know what I was confused by?When she's getting bathed for
her first night as concubine, Yeah, it's it was sort of I was
like, OK, she likes him enough or like she's in love with him
enough, you know, sort of like sufficiently.

(01:07:34):
Maybe he loves her more still, but she loves him too.
But that bathe, the bathing scene where they're like dolling
her up and everything and she looks miserable.
Oh my God, like somebody died. Like, yeah.
And I was a little confused because I was like, wait a
second. I thought she kind of did,
though. Like, or she at least accepted.
She's like, I love him enough, Ican accept this.
I can do this. But then later it was like, no.

(01:07:55):
I I totally understand where you're coming from because at
the beginning of episode 16, there had been a year long time
jump where she was outside of the palace, whatever.
Then she gets reinstated as a palace maid and they do have
this reconciliation. You know, she does say yes to
his proposal. He's like, if I asked you to be

(01:08:16):
my concubine, would you say if? I commanded you if I.
Commanded you which thank you for pointing out that little.
The nomenclature here is, I think important if I commanded
you and she says. Yes, even that yes is not like a
resounding. Joy no.
Can't wait for that to happen. I think, she said perhaps.

(01:08:36):
She said Perhaps I perhaps I do like you is.
She never like you. Perhaps I do.
I don't know. You tell me.
I love. It keep them always guessing so
but she essentially she says yes.
I'm like, is it yes, or is it acquiescence?
Like this is true? I don't know if other viewers
had this like thing of it. You know, this is her station

(01:08:58):
considering her, the logic of itall.
She's so practical. She's very pragmatic.
The logic of it all, How? How much can you refuse a king?
How many times he's at least nice and benevolent and not like
his dad? But what?
How many? How long will that last?
She's got to weigh all her options here and decide, like,
do I just give in? Right, right.
Do my feelings even matter at this point?

(01:09:18):
He's not letting her go. Right.
Even if he said that he would let her go, would he really?
He's not. Would he really?
He hasn't been historically. Yeah.
Track record. His track record.
Stupid, yeah. It's just you have to think
about it that way. And I'm sure that on 1st watch
in 2021, a lot of people didn't,a lot of viewers were like, what

(01:09:40):
the fuck? She's really difficult.
She's not saying yes to this incredible man.
And second of all, it's Ichino who's so hot, he's so fine Cape
up idol in the in the flesh. And he's just so charming A a
lot of the time. I don't think it occurred to a
lot of people that there was maybe a, a death sentence, you

(01:10:04):
know, hanging over her at any given point in the show.
Yeah, I think so. And I do again, I attribute it,
at least this is just my opinionto like kind of how we normally
see K dramas play out. They all lived happily ever
after and they secretly liked each other the whole time.
And they were like in denials, like wading through the river of
denial. And then they like reached this
point of self realization, self actualization, where they're

(01:10:25):
like, you know what? I do love him.
And it's definitive. Like when they reach that point,
you're like, OK, final, it's like this payoff moment.
And we never get this, that samekind of payoff moment.
No, you're right. You're right.
It's very like, oh, and there itis.
They are in the bedroom now. She's all dolled up.
She's ready to go. And still he, he has to, like,

(01:10:48):
convince her. The question I think he poses to
her is, if you can bear to neversee me again, I'll let you go.
We'll just pretend this never happened.
She was like, all right, fine, bitch like.
But you know, when I think abouttheir time in the library where
she's they're like both gigglingover books or whatever, I really

(01:11:08):
think there's this aspect of this where from a platonic
standpoint, they can she's like,we can hang, right, Right.
But he's like, hi, Keith writingher with like, what if I ended
your blouse right now? Then what?
It's like whoa. Whoa, that and that did happen.
Like it's not like a hypothetical.
He actually did do that. He's like, what if I undo your
blouse right now? And if you refuse to be my

(01:11:31):
concubine? Basically saying you have to be
you like I if I wanted to I could make you and like he's
like almost like I'm being benevolent by not making you and
giving. Like I'm such a, I'm such a good
guy. I am such a good guy by not
making you be my concubine, by not saying.
Masculinity is a bitch. I can't.

(01:11:53):
I think what finally convinces her a little bit is that he says
I love you. I don't care if you love me
back, right? And he says, I don't care if
it's loyalty or pity that has you here right now, that.
He does care though, he's full of shit and the thing.
Is he's full of shit, he does care.
He said at least he says that, but yeah, he does.
He does. The things that men will do to
get you to sleep with them. So he says all of this.

(01:12:16):
She does sleep with him. And it is actually really sweet.
Like the morning after you see her, she's finally allowing
herself to caress his face. Morning kisses.
It's very sweet. But it is an immediate life
change for her. You know, her friends are
astonished that overnight she's just elevated to this whole new

(01:12:38):
status. And the friends are like, you
can't fall in love with this guy.
Yeah, you can't fall in love with this guy.
Love that girl talk. Oh my God, that's what she
needed to hear. They were like world talk.
Do not fall in love with this guy.
Just do as little as you can without losing his favor, is
what they tell her. And always maintain this like
emotional distance with him. Don't let him know and don't let

(01:12:58):
him believe. Don't give him a seconds like
assurance. Yeah, you're in it.
Yeah, this with him, you. Know and she confirms.
She says out loud. I may be in love with him but I
will never let him know that. And that's something that I
think she decided even before her friends showed up and were
like what the fuck. Second of all, don't what like
guard your heart? She that's real, that is, I

(01:13:21):
mean, I hate to say it, but especially in this power
dynamic, it is real. This is not like a mutual love
of equals or whatever in any sense, any capacity.
He's someone who never hears No,he doesn't have to hear.
No, he can change rules. He can execute whoever.
She just doesn't have any like of her own anything.
Yeah, and he's just deluding agency.

(01:13:42):
Yeah, she has no agency. And he isan keeps deluding
himself into over and over he says I'm not going to love like
my grandfather. I'm going to protect those that
I love. I promise.
I'm going to protect you. Have faith in me, believe in me.
And she's just like, okay, sure.I love that she has no chill.
She can't even like like she's like doing all that.

(01:14:04):
She knows all the court rules byheart.
She knows the proper procedures in the palace, procedures for
everything, but she has no chill.
She can't hide her facial expression.
She can't hide her like attitudeproblem like nothing.
Nothing. Yeah, she's just like, sure,
man. There's so many infractions that
he does as well in the final twoepisodes, where, first of all,

(01:14:25):
we already covered one, which was he tells her to like man up
after her son dies tragically when she's pregnant.
She falls pregnant after just three months of being with him.
And the night that he finds out that she's pregnant, he's
overjoyed and immediately goes to stay with the Queen.
Man. Immediately goes to leaves her
alone on that night and she was expecting him the whole day.

(01:14:47):
Listen, I know that's his stepmom, but like, this hot,
pretty queen and he's like, Oh my God, we're pregnant.
Wait, I gotta go hang out with my stepmom.
EW, why? No, you don't.
She's like, too young and too pretty and like, you know, I
don't. Know no, it was the real queen,
his real queen, not the not the Empress Dowager his.
Oh sorry, I was thinking it was the Dowager.
Lady no. He had a a real a queen who they

(01:15:10):
said, oh, they were trying. They've been trying to have a
child and all this time. And of course, only after three
months of being with his new concubine, the one that he's
been head over heels in love with his entire life, she gets
pregnant and the queen still hasno children.
So that's why he went to consolethe queen instead of celebrating
with her. And it's heartbreaking.

(01:15:31):
He also says towards the end of the episode, she asked him like,
hey, have you ever imagined a scenario where you're a commoner
and we can just be together, youknow, a whole new life
essentially, that is free from all of these structures and this
chasm of a power imbalance between them.
And he says, no, I've never thought about that.

(01:15:55):
Never had that crossed my mind. Why would he?
Why the hell would he? He says, oh, it just suits you
to be a court lady. And she says, well.
That was. Suits crazy to me and I was
like. Why was this conversation
happening? That's that's a lot.
So I mean, the hits just keep coming these last two episodes.

(01:16:16):
I'm not sure how you could have thought he's great.
He totally deserves to be with her.
You know what made me think like, not that he's great and
deserves to be with her, but like when they bring in that
other lady concubine that he first and she's like a bitch.
Yes, yes, yes. You're like, OK, you know what?
He concubine. Kwabin who's out here trying to

(01:16:38):
catch the king in the act? Like I'm confused about why she
was trying to incite him to be with home girl Pokémon.
Like what? What was that I?
Think just to get her away. That's it.
I I don't know. So anyway, and then she's like
starts beating her and giving her difficult jobs at night that

(01:16:58):
are against palace rules and I mean, just all kind of shit.
Anyway, so that's the last two episode.
We basically covered the last two episodes on the show, but
there is a lot that just happensin the show.
And I want to touch on the fact that Pokim was groomed for him

(01:17:22):
that I think hurt her very deeply, hurt the character,
female lead very deeply. That her entire life of her
growing up in the palace and working in the library and
transcribing all of these books that he has been studying.
So that she also, as she's transcribing, absorbs this

(01:17:44):
information and studies it as well.
All of this time being in close proximity to him and overhearing
his voice as he's going through lessons and stuff nearby.
All of this was by design. She was groomed for him.
Do you have thoughts on that? It's it's hard because it's like

(01:18:04):
the I just talk so much of it tolike her station life, the
circumstances of their life. She's a court lady.
She's not just a regular commoner going through like the
village market like other peopleare.
So it's like, and like, who elseis he hanging around?
Like she he's gonna want to likesome of these ladies.
Like he also knows like one of these court ladies, any of them
can be made concubine at any time or not even my official
concubine, but just someone I like, you know, can do whatever

(01:18:26):
I want with. So so on some level it's like,
well, inevitably, yes, but like,I do think she has this like
pride and I think like not enough things explore the pride
of like a little bit like in parasite maybe.
But like you don't really see a lot of like the pride of people
who are either impoverished or in this like lower class social
class in life. I'm putting a class like air

(01:18:46):
quotes because you know, what even is it?
But like their social status or social whatever.
And and then in this case, it's such an extreme version because
he's literal royalty and she is literally a palace made.
So it doesn't get any more starkthan that, but from an emotion.
That's why I'm like, what is love?
What could love be for them? And like, what would that look
like? Can it even exist?
You know it's too hard. Yeah, I think that even before

(01:19:11):
there's a scene before when she finds out from the head court
lady that she. I want you to be his concubine.
I've been. All of this is by design.
You know, if you have feelings for him, great, because I want
you. I want to install you as his
concubine. And that scares her really
badly. But before that, she's talking
with her, her brother, her olderbrother that she's finally seen

(01:19:34):
for the first time in a long time.
And he tells her, you're a free spirit by nature, and you should
be able to freely roam the world.
It's sad that you must be caged in the palace where it was his
direct words. And then she's like, oh, no,
don't worry about me. And she lists three things that
make her life as a palace made likable, bearable even.

(01:19:55):
She says, what's so great about getting married and living an
ordinary life? I have so many things.
There's Court lady Saul, who's like a mother to me and my
friends who are like, family. Also.
I'm like really good at my job. She's like, I'm the best palace
maid. I do think like, has she been
allowed to just live in the library for the rest of her
life? She would have been golden on

(01:20:16):
some level, you know, because because I don't know, I kind of
do believe her being like, well,what's so great about being
married? Because either way, at that time
especially, you're beholden to your husband, your husband, even
commoners back then could take concubines and did.
So I, I think she kind of was being serious and she's like,
well, what's so great about that?
But again, like it's like she found little spaces of where she

(01:20:36):
felt free and was in being in charge of the library.
But then when that was taken away, she's like, oh God, I
can't. Right, right.
There was these little pockets of joy and freedom in the
palace, and there were like, consolations for her giving up
so much of herself and her life being a palace maid.

(01:20:57):
And this was already, she's like, sort of, definitely
attracted to him, but very sort of in love with him.
And she's still like, yeah, I love my life because of these
three things. And eventually she loses all of
these things just by being with him.
Just by virtue of being with him, she loses everything that
made it worthwhile to stay in the palace because she did have

(01:21:21):
the option to just run away withher brother.
And she did leave for a whole year and then was compelled to
come back, which kind of sucked,but.
Oh yeah, yeah. For sure.
So a lot of things that fractured their relationship and
made it, it was still the most viable option for her, but it
wasn't the thing that was going to fulfill her.

(01:21:41):
Ever. That's how I feel too.
Yeah, I had someone in my DM say, oh, but I feel so bad for
the Crown Prince, for Ijuno's character, King Jeong Jo.
And and she was like, I feel so bad for him because he never
knew that she loved him. He didn't.
Ever have. I mean, that's true.
I also felt kind of bad about. That and I said something kind

(01:22:04):
of harsh to this person in the DMS, but I actually just I do
feel the same way now. So I will repeat the harsh thing
that I said. I said, oh, he got everything he
ever wanted. He got everything he ever want.
He ascended the throne safely. He brought about a renaissance
in Korea and got to finally, youknow, accept his lineage from

(01:22:29):
his Prince Sado father and buildwhat he wanted and have the
woman of his dreams by his side.He could sleep with her whenever
he wanted. And then he had all these other
women as well, just like a full ass harem.
He had sons, which was like a big deal.
He had sons and daughters and it's so unfortunate the poor

(01:22:53):
thing didn't know that she lovedhim.
I mean, I really do think. I don't feel badly at all for
him. And I don't know if she knew
100% either because this like question of like, well, she did
love him just like a certain wayor to a certain extent if they
could have like really been goodfriends as well as maybe even
romantically like a dated, if that was like a thing.

(01:23:14):
I don't know at the time, but I don't know, like she was like
his everything, at least in the drama, right?
And I don't think she knew like I think she's more like, I don't
even know. My frame of reference is small.
I live this kind of small life because I live in the palace and
I like serve you and your, you know, relatives or whatever.
And so, so on some level she's like, but what if like the what
if factor or something like thatwas in her mind constantly,

(01:23:37):
like, you aren't my whole world because there's a whole other
world out there and I don't evenget to explore it.
So she always kind of had this like kind of, I don't know if
it's doubt or misgivings, but something along those lines of
like, but what if or like, what else is there?
Like maybe it would be my whole life, my whole world if I could
see the rest of the world and she couldn't.
So I think this like, conflict, it was just a lot of conflict
for her about this question of like, it's not for me at least,

(01:23:58):
it was so nuanced and not like we were saying earlier, not so
directly. Like, yeah, I love him, Let's
get together. We love each other at the end.
Like so much going on internallyfor her.
And there's so many red, red freaking flags for him that he
does. We mentioned one earlier where
he like, threatens to just take her right there, like rape her
basically. And then if she doesn't accept

(01:24:19):
him, then she's going to get ostracized, ostracized and sent
to the back of house. And that'll be the rest of her
life in living in shame. And like halfway through the
show, we get the library scene, a library scene where he's mad
with jealousy. He just saw her being intimate.
And I put in air quotes with herbrother and he because she gets

(01:24:45):
like arm sleeves. He gives her like sleeve cuffs
to presumably to keep her warm. And he goes crazy.
He's like, then does your everything belong to me?
Your thoughts, your will, your heart, Do they belong to me?
Answer me. And she's like, no, even a
palace maid has her own will andheart, even though they may seem
trivial to others. Even though I belong to you, my

(01:25:07):
everything does not belong to you.
And he, like, has got her up against the bookcase, almost
caresses her face. You think he's going to be soft
with her after she says this inflammatory thing?
And then no, he grabs her by theneck.
It's so aggressive. He says, I alone decide your

(01:25:27):
fate. Everything you own belongs to
me. I decide whether you live or
whether you die. Never forget that, That I'm
like, what are we doing here? He wants to assert his
dominance, his control over her,actively taking away her agency
even in his this speech to her, wants to take away her sense of

(01:25:50):
self. Nothing.
She can't own anything herself, any semblance of safety, because
he's like, I decide whether you live or die.
So she's like got to be fucking nervous.
Nervous as shit. He's also mad she's never afraid
in his presence or like nervous in his presence, but I think the
conflict does mention with her where she's like, I don't know.
There's also a conflict in a waywith him because it's like he's

(01:26:12):
sometimes like I don't give a shit if you actually really love
me or not. That's irrelevant.
I'm going to make you love me, you know, kind of thing, or like
I'm going to make you my concubine there for you do love
me, but then he's like, but do you love me?
Please love me. Do you love me?
Do you love me? Please love me like.
Right. Hello.
Chill out. Yeah.
It's it's frustrating because he's so he's trying to put on a

(01:26:32):
brave face when he really does crave her, her love, her
genuine. Yeah, he wants her genuine love
and affection and everything she's got.
And she's like, I'll give you something.
Yeah, but not everything. And maybe it's a difference of,
you know, she's a like the love languages, he's words of

(01:26:55):
affirmation or something. And she is actions, right,
Right. I forget what they are.
But the fact that she never explicitly says, but her mere
presence in his life is evidenceenough that she cares enough
that she loves him enough it is.That's ridiculous.

(01:27:20):
It's a little. Another thing that maybe is like
dissatisfactory, if you're like AK drama viewer who lives for
those moments so that he he's not her all and everything,
everything's not OK just becausethey're together.
Whereas like a lot of K dramas have that kind of romantic ones,
I mean, have that kind of aspectto it where it's like they got
together, they won at life, they're going to be together
forever and everything's OK now.And like there's not as many

(01:27:40):
dramas where like everything's so conflicted and complicated
and like this one was. So I kind of respect that about
this, but. Yeah, I do too, talking about
things that he does wrong. I just remembered this right now
that the Royal Preceptor kind ofloses his shit.
He goes batshit crazy toward theend of the show when his little

(01:28:01):
sister dies, who he marries her into be a little concubine and
bra bra bra bra. So he goes nuts and starts
kidnapping court ladies and torturing them and planning to
frame the Empress Dowager for murder for his sister's murder,

(01:28:23):
which is all lies, all of its lies.
And the King will, the now King Juno's character knew about his
antics, knew that he was keepingall these court ladies hostage
and then he was doing them harm and he was kidnapping more.
And there was just a trail of bodies in his wake.
And he was like, I'm just waiting for him to what?

(01:28:49):
Confessed to his cry. I was super confused about that
whole thing. This is also something that I'm
sure fractured their relationship because she did not
trust him to provide justice forher and her friend who got
kidnapped. Do you think the whole thing
with the the scholar existed in real life as you were talking

(01:29:11):
about before they changed his name for some reason, This may
because he was sadistic in this show, but because there's no
evidence that the real person did anything like this.
But the real person was power hungry as well to a certain
extent and was trying to like, you know, get one over on him or
whatever. But but do you think that the
whole like this pot line which Ifound very random and on some
level was like supposed to mirror the real life Prince Otto

(01:29:32):
and his antics or like why was this happening or like why was
this a plot point? I don't know.
I don't know. I think it's strange even saying
out loud like what he was doing into what end is really strange
because it doesn't look helpful to his cause.
And if he was trying to vie for power, why I'm confused about

(01:29:55):
this whole plot to Fair Rain theEmpress Dowager.
It was crazy. It was just unhinged.
Were they just like we need drama another.
Action I think. I mean honestly it could just
the ninja. Ninja court ladies weren't
enough Ninja like court ladies? What was that even?
So many things in this show was like, that's why I give a 3 1/2

(01:30:16):
sojuice because I was like, whatare we doing?
I think I forgive a lot regarding the fairy Palace and
the ninja court ladies and them trying to.
I mean, the secret cult thing was it was beyond me because.
Societies, they're like, yeah, really weird.

(01:30:36):
They're in the Illuminati or whatever.
It was basically, yeah, it was basically this underground
secret Society of evil. 'Cause they also did nothing
like fine, you have like there'sthis made secret society.
There's a Prince himself is in one.
Why? To do what what what was
happening? Yeah, I could drop my score to a

(01:30:57):
four, but I'm still really enamored with the show.
But like this doesn't make I like the concepts that it
introduced of never trust the king was their motto for the
organization. That was interesting.
But to me, the whole lore of thegroup and the moon fairies

(01:31:18):
coming down and they get to choose the king and they're in
it to protect the palace maids and all this stuff so that, you
know, another Prince Sido doesn't rise up and start
slaughtering and raping everybody.
I mean, I, I don't have words like that sounds crazy.

(01:31:41):
I see you like cringing. It is weird.
Weird. It's weird.
The tiger episode I thought was weird enough and then I went to
this whole other. Level the tiger.
All the CGI tiger I was like is this a low point or a high point
because the CGI tiger like in mid air pouncing at him I was
like damn what is? Also like at that point I still

(01:32:05):
wasn't taking Junho seriously enough.
Like in my mind he was still like.
All talking about you, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, so, so I was like he he's fighting a tiger.
Like, OK, I don't think so, but OK, like could not suspend
belief for that one. But I guess we can segue into

(01:32:25):
the head palace lady Loved her because I loved her.
Yeah. Why did you talk about?
It I don't really even know again, what the point of her was
other than to orchestrate this whole thing with getting dog
Game involved in his life and having her be her stooge,
basically her spy or both. And but she was just cool.
Like, and I also didn't fully understand the like power

(01:32:47):
structure of like the head courtlady and she had all this power,
but like kind of why? And like, how do you know that
you have to listen to her? And like, there's a lot of like
questions in my mind about that.But she was just really cool and
she knew how to like manipulate everybody, and I respect that.
Yeah, like the moment that she, because she basically gets found

(01:33:08):
out, she goes she goes to the prison for all the things that
she actually did. The whole lore behind her was
that she could have been anotherconcubine for the Grandpa King.
And the face off that she has with the Grandpa King is one of

(01:33:29):
my favorite scenes because she claims it was her own petty
revenge for hating Concubine Yongbin.
But the king, the Grandpa king, knows better.
He had earlier said. I never chose you because we're
the same, you know, we're both really cruel and cut from the

(01:33:53):
same cloth, is what he said. But Concubine Youngbin, there's
a lot of warmth to her, and I felt that ease with her, was
what he said. She basically brought him some
measure of peace in his tumultuous life.
Home girl, the head court lady was never going to do that for
him. That hurt her very deeply.

(01:34:15):
And the moment where she says, oh, I just did it for petty
revenge, he's like, no, you resented me.
She as part of the fairy palace.Just saying it is stupid.
Chose him a king of humble beginnings to roll and she
arrogantly thought that she could become his concubine.

(01:34:38):
And I don't know if that means the fairy palace poisoned his
older brother. I guess another bit of like
revisionist little history thereI guess is they are insinuating
that the fairy palace killed hisolder brother in order to
install the grandpa king. And so the king recognized that
he did use her up and throw her away, and perhaps she did help

(01:35:04):
him ascend to power and he was going to be merciful and let her
live, which I thought was crazy.But but both him and his
grandson are like that, like they're both kind of softies.
Even though he was cruel or cruel as a king in certain ways,
you would pain him. Like the times he was punishing
San, it was really paining him alot.

(01:35:24):
So this was like, I kept feelinglike all the time, like they
were related. But but but to go back to her
quickly, I just want to say one thing.
She and he were like great casting.
Yes, he was played by Edoqua actor Edoqua and then she was
played by Pakji Young. They played that scene so well
and they were so good together and you really believed
everything that they were doing with each other, like in terms

(01:35:46):
of their acting. Absolutely.
Yeah. And she says to him, Your
Majesty, you have always only taken from me.
Will you give something to me? Just once?
And I thought that was really powerful of her to say that
you've only taken from me. I mean, this is a woman who has
schemed her way to the top, who has killed people, who has

(01:36:09):
planned assassinations. She tried to assassinate Isan,
tortures people, tortures people, old palace maids who
couldn't hurt a family. She's torturing them.
And this lady is like you. The king took everything from
me. It's almost like a a mirror kind
of deal that she's mirroring Dokima the.

(01:36:31):
Female off each other. Well, yeah, but yeah, both her
acting with the actress who played Dokim, the act like
playing off with the king, all that was she's just great.
Like I loved her so much in terms of her everything, how she
played the character, everything.
Yeah, and at that point, like those two, the Grandpa King and
the head court lady, they are beyond saving, like both of

(01:36:54):
them. And she doesn't believe him.
She doesn't believe that he's going to save her.
And he promises to like, basically send her off and she's
going to live the rest of her life in health and peace and OK,
after she tried to kill his grandson, the Crown Prince.
Bullshit. So she doesn't believe his oath.
She doesn't trust his favor. And she kills herself with a

(01:37:14):
tiny knife, which is called a jangdo or UN jangdo, meaning
silver knife, commonly carried by both men and women.
These knives were not just for practical use but also for
status. They were also used for
self-defense. And for women, they were
sometimes believed to be used for suicide rather than
submitting to an attacker. And that's exactly what she does

(01:37:35):
in that scene. She commits suicide rather than
like be taken alive or let off the hook.
I think at that point he, I think, I do believe that he
would have let her off the hook.I think she would have seen that
as some kind of defeat. Like she lost, Like
unequivocally she lost. And I don't think she could live
with that either. So the grandpa king dies, but I
want to talk about the grandpa king and how the first time I

(01:37:57):
watched this I think I was a lotharsher on him or thought more
harshly toward him and then I really softened toward his
character on this rewatch. Did you have thoughts about the
Grandpa King? I mean everyone was I think
because he killed his own son islike the the view of him

(01:38:18):
prevailing view of him in aroundcourt was that he was harsh and
strict and by the book and then when his grandson ascends to the
throne, he's also trying to be. But they're both like I was
saying earlier, just super softies like they they have this
like all this humanity in them that a lot of cuz like again,
when we we juxtapose them with that other concubine lady
popping and she has no like she does not care.

(01:38:41):
She's in it for herself. She's in it for like the power.
She does not care and she's not about to be like embarrassed by
Dolby or anybody. And and she's so like, you know,
the whipping and all that that they didn't do.
Whereas like freaking son when he's king is like, no one does
laundry after night. You might catch a cold.
I was like, what? But so the grandfather's not
quite as softy as him. But yeah, he I didn't think ever

(01:39:03):
see him as like super harsh as everyone was like saying.
And I just chalked it up to like.
Yeah, yeah, I agree. I, I felt a lot more sympathy
for him this time around. Thought that he did have Yisan's
best interest at heart and that he was shielding him from a lot
and was certainly afraid, terrified of him becoming mad

(01:39:29):
like his son Prince Sado. But that manifested in being
very strict with him, with, you know, slapping him around and
abusing him every so often to try and train some sense into
him. And yes, it's abusive.
Yes, it's wrong. Also, I I think he did the best
he could. And that is, I think the softer

(01:39:52):
side of this rewatch coming out that I was like, I I'm a little
more like, yeah, but he tried his best.
He didn't know how to do this right.
Like how to? I wonder if we go to like the
actual history of it where his real life Prince Otto felt
neglected. The wife corroborated that he
was kind of an aloof parent to his married 11 year old son or

(01:40:15):
whatever, married nine year old son.
And you know, the sting of that,if we were to apply it to the
way they were the script, maybe they use maybe some of that
information and was like, he's now trying to make sure he's so
attentive to everything Isan is doing and making sure that E son
doesn't go down this path of psychosis or whatever is going
on sociopathy. I don't know.
He so he's like really attentivenow and he's really like strict

(01:40:37):
and really rigid and non not forgiving.
So he there's no way he can become as unhinged as his father
had because it was traumatic forhim too.
He doesn't want to put in another rice casket or whatever.
Oh my God, please. Something that I noticed earlier
in the show is that whenever Tolkien is upset or angry or

(01:40:59):
something, she wants to take it out on somebody.
She just goes to this pond and starts skipping rocks or
throwing rocks in the pond. And she, like, lets out all her
frustrations and she bends and she's talking out loud to
herself. And I thought that was really
endearing. And later in the show, as the
show progresses, she does not dothat.
She instead goes to the same pond and creates a little leaf

(01:41:21):
boat and sends that floating on the pond instead of disturbing
the water and picking up a rock and being a little more violent.
And I thought that was really telling of basically a maturity
happening with her, but also a loss of innocence for her.

(01:41:41):
And the story I feel ultimately is a loss of innocence and a
story of betraying yourself in order to fulfill any kind of
romantic love that is available to you.
And that's tough. That's a little tougher to
swallow. Then this is a straight love

(01:42:03):
story between a king who absolutely adored this
concubine. It was so chilling when the
mother lady, I forgot how they called her, takes her for the
concubine first night and she's like, just come with me, don't
argue, just come on. And then she's like Tonkima, you
have to do what the king said. I was like, no.

(01:42:23):
And then she's just like harrowedly getting her, you
know, bath done or whatever, meeting him.
And she's just like, Oh my God, it's hitting her so hard.
And yeah, the I mean, you were talking about the last of
innocence, but it's also like, like you're forced to grow up a
lot of times. Most of us are forced to somehow
some way to like grow up a little.
Like, you know, stop acting likea kid in a way and stop being a

(01:42:44):
dreamer in a way, like idealizing your future.
And just based up to the fact like maybe you're always going
to be a corporate cog in the machine in in our today's world
or something. Or maybe you're always going to
do whatever. You're never going to be a
baseball player, whatever it is that people.
Right, Right. She kind of is at this point
where she's like, OK, well, thisis my life.
This is my life, this is the cards that I've been dealt and

(01:43:06):
it's probably going to do me more harm to it.
It's much easier to just say yes.
Yeah. Then it would be to try and
extricate from the situation. The I don't know.
Do you have anything else you'd like to talk about?
I think just one last thing is maybe the the scholar guy to go
back to him going nuts and torturing maids for no real

(01:43:26):
reason. At first.
At first I thought that was likerelated to his intense hunger
for power. But kind of the way he was
playing, at least to my viewing of it was like his immense grief
over the loss of his sister. But he's at some points he
seemed ruthless in quotes enoughto be.
I mean, he's feeding a child to be the concubine of his his king

(01:43:46):
friend for his own sake, like we're going to get power from.
This where his son feeding is such a great word.
Yeah, right. And so then, but then you see
him instead of like just being maybe torturing me out of anger
that he isn't going to be in thepower place that he wants to be.
He's almost just like so sad andhe can't, he can't cope with it.
And I'm saying, oh, he should have gotten over though like

(01:44:07):
child's death. But he's like the where it's
coming from was weirding me out.So I don't know why they did
that. Maybe to humanize him somehow
for some reason, but in a way he's still torturing other
women. So it's not really humanizing.
Right. It's.
It's weird we have to talk aboutbath time in episode 6.
Yeah. OK, so this is a really sexy

(01:44:29):
scene. There's a lot of sexual tension
throughout the show. But this particular scene, I
remember lighting up social media.
Yes. And so many Tik Tok's reels and
it's. Just this because she just falls
in the water and he catches her.He had gone to help her with

(01:44:51):
pouring this heavy bucket of water, which I'm like OK,
really. Like this is not something that
he does with every other palace maid who's in there helping him
take a bath. Every other bitch has to hoist
up that bucket of water by themselves.
But because it's her, he tries to help her and this really
silly looking fall happens and they're in this hop bath water

(01:45:16):
together and you see Juno's chest in his abs and everything.
What did you think of the scene?Looked good.
Looked looked good. No, I know it's so funny
because, you know, at the time Ididn't watch Red Sleep when it
came out, but it was a very hyped up show.
The fans were out here and the edits were out here and it was
always that freaking scene, which was at the time I wasn't
complaining, but this time it looked 10 times cornier for some

(01:45:39):
reason. It.
Did. I was like, I don't remember
being this cringy, but it kind of did come across that way this
time. But yeah, I mean, why was that
happening? Who knows?
I had to give us something, right?
There's so much about K drama romances that they weren't
giving us that they probably were like, we got to get you
guys invested in this, and especially because we know we're
going to let you down really badly later.
So I guess it was just an element of that.

(01:46:00):
I don't think it's any deeper than that.
But yeah, how funny of a little scene there.
Yeah, I mean, that scene is preceded by her lecturing him
about because he gets jealous again, she's too close to the
royal preceptor, but the royal preceptor was getting close to
her. He was getting handsy with her

(01:46:21):
and trying to be like really aggressively flirtatious with
her in a in a single moment. And he oversaw, he saw it.
And she says then you should have scolded him for harassing
this palace maid. Why did you just watch?
Weren't you aware that Sir Preceptor constantly harasses
the palace maids that he makes them tell him secrets that they

(01:46:43):
see in the palace? You never scolded Sir Preceptor,
your right hand man, but chose to lash out at me this powerless
palace. And I was like bitch if you
don't slap this guy. And then the corniest fall in
the history of K drama when she falls back.
We all love the like, hate to love, you know, kind of things.

(01:47:06):
So I do. I really think it was just candy
for K drama viewers. Yeah, absolutely.
Things like that. And I think it was well done.
At least it felt well done at the time.
But now. I know you're kind of like,
wait. But we got Juno in like in damp
clingy clothes. So like or wet clingy clothes?
Right. Transparent white silk garb.

(01:47:27):
Yeah, there was a moment. There's so many moments earlier
in the show where she is made tofeel small, where she as a
palace maid, they're like, who cares about you and your
feelings? Why do you?
Why should you get a say? And she's disrespected over and
over again, even by him, right by Igeno's Crown Prince.

(01:47:49):
I think that that's makes for a shaky foundation for a romance
to me. When everyone around her saying
you don't matter, you know, who cares about your feelings?
How do you think he feels about you and the royal preceptor
asking her this instead of goingdirectly to the Crown Prince and
asking, hey, what do you think of Dokima?

(01:48:10):
And she's like, I don't know, why don't you ask him yourself?
He walks away and she goes, hey,wait a minute, Don't you want to
know what I think of him? Yeah.
What's in my heart? What are my feelings?
And he's like, I don't fucking care.
I don't give a shit. Who cares what's inside a palace
maid's heart? Aside from the palace maid
thing, most people weren't really notoriously caring about

(01:48:30):
women's thoughts and feelings anyway.
Yeah, exactly, Exactly. 2 last things I'll say is that So we'll
talk about him first. Crown Prince Ijeno's character,
I love this moment when she reads him poems from this book
of odes that he loves. And they're on the other side of
the wall. Yes, that is one of my favorite

(01:48:53):
scenes in the whole show. I think it just so sums up their
relationship and how there is always something between them.
You know, as a book lover, that is porn to me.
Oh my. God, that's loved it, yes.
You're also a book lover, so yeah.
Absolutely. I think that the moment when the

(01:49:13):
grandpa comes and basically beats his ass and then he leaves
and she's there across the wall.'Cause he's in like, he's in
like a little house arrest. Yes.
He's under like a little mini house arrest.
And she says, do you bear it because you have no other
choice? And he said he goes feral.
He goes like full Daniel Day Lewis in this scene.

(01:49:34):
It's like an acting showcase. There's like, many in this show
where you're like, well, damn, you know, like, I didn't know,
geez, like, give me a second to breathe.
This is one of those moments. It's like ragged breathing,
shaky delivery, tears streaming down his face as he says to her.
I hold back to attain my aims and I bear it to get what I

(01:49:55):
want. I know what pain is and I know
how many others are also suffering.
I am the Crown Prince of this land.
One day I will have the strength.
With that strength, there are somany who I can help.
I have so many plans in store for the future.
Do you have any idea? As for you, just stay by my
side. That'll be enough.

(01:50:15):
And that gets at that idea that you were talking about that she
really respects him. She respects his aims.
He's got lofty ideals. He's got grand plans for the
country. She hopes he's going to be a
good king. That's all she wants for him.
She wants the best for him, right?
Like I wish nothing but the bestfor you is what she says to him
a couple of times in the show. This moment is really impactful

(01:50:37):
because you see that he is really noble.
He has redeeming qualities. So many times you see kings, I
know he's like based on a real person who was seen benevolent
for the most part. But so many times in shows you
see people who are royal people who are rich people who are Che
balls just act like unhinged allthe time and like power hungry
and crazy. And there are other people in
this show who are like that and he's not.

(01:50:58):
He's not like that when he easily could be.
And so that unto itself is almost like a redeeming factor
for him. And then the other thing I
wanted to say was about her and that the entire Yong Bin book
debacle happens and she swept upin this possible beheading
because they think she stole it.She has to make the king
remember that he gave it to her on the night of Concubine Yong

(01:51:20):
Bin's death. That whole scene also a favorite
of mine. I love, love, love that scene
because she summons all of her powers, right?
She's a storyteller, she's a creative.
She loves to read and write. She would have been an English
major or something if this was amodern day.

(01:51:41):
So this is hugely touching moment when he finally does
remember and he says, do you remember why I gave you the
book? And she's like, no, I can't.
I don't really remember exactly why you gifted me this precious.
Book I was 10 years old. Because I was 10 years old.
She remembers everything else about the day.
It's just a very sensory experience.
She's like light, some incense. So she remembers a lot.

(01:52:04):
But not that, he says. Because you wanted to have good
handwriting. And Lady Youngbin had beautiful
penmanship. And he goes, I'm glad I did, and
calls her by name. He remembers her name.
Yeah, her whole name song her. Whole name and he says you have
beautiful handwriting. Yeah.
Just so emotional the stakes were high.

(01:52:25):
I just really loved that scene. It was beautiful beautifully
acted, beautifully written. And it's also really just
heartbreaking because that was apriority for her.
She loved transcribing books. She loved reading and writing.
She loved telling stories. And each of those character
always thought of it as lesser. He was like, why are you reading

(01:52:48):
these? You know, why a thick to these
girls everyday, basically. And when she becomes his
concubine, she can no longer do this thing that she loved, which
was writing and transcribing formoney.
It was. It was part of her agency
package, the one thing that she had, and she couldn't do it

(01:53:08):
anymore. When the King remembers that
about her, it's like she's beingseen finally by her friends who
are the only other people reallyand like her.
Ajamal, I don't know Oma, whatever lady, but like the King
sees her. Like who sees her?
Almost nobody. She's, like you said,
disrespected and dismissed so much, but the King saw her,
which is awesome and really redemptive.

(01:53:28):
And as a child and then made theconnection to her now, Oh my
God, I like lose it every time. So there again, is a lot to
unpack in the show, but we are going to wrap it up.
Do you have any? Last thoughts, No, but now I'm
going to listen to 2:00 PM afterthis.
Oh. My God, if you've come all the

(01:53:49):
way to this point and you have not listened to 2:00 PM, we both
encourage you to like deep dive into that discography.
We have been singing two different songs, man.
I'm gonna post the video, the music video that I keep

(01:54:09):
replaying in my head. It's too much.
It does not compute with Eugeno in this drop, which is nothing
to do with that. So stark the difference.
Anyway, thank you so much for coming on the show.
So appreciate your insight and and rewatching this entire show.
As I said, the episodes kept getting longer.
It would be an hour and 10 minutes for like 12 episodes

(01:54:32):
straight. And then it started getting into
an hour and 22 minutes, an hour and 26 minutes, an hour and 28.
The final episode was an hour, 40 minutes.
It was ridiculous. Yeah, I can't condone that.
It's beautiful and, you know, lovely that it is visually and
in some cases, like some of the plot points, the acting is
great, phenomenal. It is a lot.

(01:54:54):
It's a lot to take in, but stillgood stuff.
Still good stuff, highly recommend.
Where can we find you online, Mina?
I'm on Instagram at K Pop bookshelf so hit me up there if
you'd like to. Nice.
And that's been our show. I'm Jessica and this has been
the Tabak Here Rambles podcast.

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