August 12, 2025 • 34 mins
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Matthew 18: 15-20 - 'If your brother listens to you, you have won back your brother.'
Catechism of the Catholic Church Paragraphs:
- 2472 (in 'To Bear Witness to the Truth') - The duty of Christians to take part in the life of the Church impels them to act as witnesses of the Gospel and of the obligations that flow from it. This witness is a transmission of the faith in words and deeds. Witness is an act of justice that establishes the truth or makes it known.
- 553 (in 'The Keys of the Kingdom') - The power to "bind and loose" connotes the authority to absolve sins, to pronounce doctrinal judgements, and to make disciplinary decisions in the Church. Jesus entrusted this authority to the Church through the ministry of the apostles and in particular through the ministry of Peter, the only one to whom he specifically entrusted the keys of the kingdom (abbreviated).
- 1444 (in 'Reconciliation with the Church') - In imparting to his apostles his own power to forgive sins the Lord also gives them the authority to reconcile sinners with the Church. This ecclesial dimension of their task is expressed most notably in Christ's solemn words to Simon Peter: "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." "The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of the apostles united to its head."
- 1088 (is 'Present in the earthly liturgy') - He is present in his word since it is he himself who speaks when the holy Scriptures are read in the Church. Lastly, he is present when the Church prays and sings, for he has promised 'where two or three are gathered together in my name there am I in the midst of them" (abbreviated).
- 1373 (in 'The Presence of Christ by the power of his word and the Holy Spirit') - "Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us," is present in many ways to his Church: in his word, in his Church's prayer, "where two or three are gathered in my name," in the poor, the sick, and the imprisoned (abbreviated).
Got a Bible question? Send an email to logicalbiblestudy@gmail.com, and it will be answered in an upcoming episode!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:10):
Hi everyone. Welcome back to Daily Gospel
Exegesis. And we're all about exactly what
it sounds like. We do an exegesis of the Bible
every single day. We have a look at the gospel
from today's Mass, and we reallydive into the text and see what
it means on the most literal level.
What is it saying in the very words it uses, taking into
account the social and cultural context, so really helping you
(00:34):
understand the Bible in a bit more of a academic, rigorous
way. Now, today's reading is one of
those ones that I think you'll find really fascinating when we
dive into it in a really good exegetical way.
This is one of these passages where I was making new
connections as I was reading andresearching for it, and
(00:54):
realizing a whole lot of new things about this passage that
are really quite fascinating when you dive into the text.
And I'm sure by the end of this episode you would have learned
something new. There is a lot of really
interesting stuff going on in this passage, so I believe this
is one of these passages where using exegesis properly will
(01:15):
reveal some really interesting things.
Tell us a lot about Jesus. Tell us a lot about his view of
the Church. And it says a lot about the way
things could be and should be, Iwould say so I think we're
getting into a really interesting episode today, but
see what you think. So we're looking at Matthew
chapter 18 versus 15 to 20. Jesus said to his disciples, if
(01:41):
your brother does something wrong, go and have it out with
him alone between your two selves.
If he listens to you, you have one back, your brother.
If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you.
The evidence of two or three witnesses is required to sustain
any charge. But if if he refuses to listen
(02:04):
to these, report it to the community.
And if he refuses to listen to the community, treat him like a
Pagan or a tax collector. I tell you solemnly, whatever
you bind on earth shall be considered bound in heaven.
Whatever you loose on earth shall be considered loosed in
heaven. I tell you solemnly once again,
(02:27):
If two of you on earth agree to ask anything at all, it will be
granted to you by my Father in heaven.
For where two or three meet in my name, I shall be there with
them. So there's multiple things going
on in this passage that we need to try to bring together.
There's an Old Testament context.
There's the way society functioned in the time of Jesus.
(02:49):
There's the things he was just saying in the previous part of
the chapter. And also there's some
interesting translational issuesof some of the Greek words here.
So let's really dive into it, see what we can learn.
So we're in Chapter 18, and Chapter 18 is sort of the fourth
large sermon in Matthew. This sermon is often called the
ecclesial Sermon on life in the community.
(03:10):
Or you could just call it the Sermon about the church.
So in chapter 18, Jesus talks about a few different things,
but he's clarifying the kind of Kingdom he wants to establish,
and in particular, he's going tofocus on leadership.
So we're going to see here a description of what Jesus wants
his Kingdom to look like after he's gone.
And what we're going to see today in particular is how he
(03:33):
wants his church to be structured and how church
discipline is to be enacted. What we see here is perhaps the
clearest passage in the entire New Testament about how church
discipline should happen when someone in the church is
sinning. So we should pay attention.
Now, what's the context? Jesus has just told the parable
(03:55):
of the lost sheep. If you remember, that's what
happened just before this. And the context of that was he
was telling his apostles that God does not want any of his
children, probably meaning Christian disciples, to perish.
That was the whole point of the parable.
He wants his apostles to know that God doesn't want anyone to
be lost. And so it's up to the apostles
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to make sure, as best as I can, that all Christians stay inside
the church. He wants the apostles to look
after other disciples. That's that was sort of the main
teaching from the parable of thelost sheep that forms the
context for what we're about to hear starting at verse 15.
If your brother does something wrong now, that's what our
(04:37):
translation has. It's not a very good one.
The Greek here is quite strong, actually.
It's quite clear. So what it says is if your
brother sins against you, so theword sin is used there.
So Jesus now is going to give the apostles instructions on
what to do when a brother, whichis a Christian disciple, does
something sinful. So that's pretty clear up to
(04:57):
this point, if your brother does, if your brother sins
against you. Now the context, as we'll see
it, goes on to suggest that the sin, the kind of sins that Jesus
is talking about here, are quiteserious grave sins.
It's not just a small sin, it's some sort of grave, perhaps sin
of a public nature of some kind.And we see that because of the
(05:18):
extent of the community involvement.
Jesus goes on to describe that for these people and for these
sins, there's going to be an aspect of community involvement.
The community is going to find out about the sin.
Why is he telling the apostles this?
Well, the apostles have greater knowledge and wisdom on these
matters because they travel withJesus and they're given special
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gifts and special authority fromJesus compared to other
believers. So the apostles rank higher than
the other disciples, so they have the power to enact
discipline. That's pretty clear from this
passage. Jesus gives the apostles power
to enact churches discipline. Now that also means they need to
do it responsibly. They have a responsibility to
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make sure that they use it in such a way that it brings
Christians back into the church.They can't just laud it over the
people. So this is all part of what
Jesus was saying about the parable of the lost sheep.
It's all part of preventing the disciple from perishing.
So let's keep that in mind as wego.
The kind of church discipline Jesus has in mind is 1, Where he
(06:22):
wants to bring the lost sheep back into the fold.
It's to prevent the disciple from perishing.
In other words, all of this is going to be directed towards
helping the Sinner to stop sinning and to repent.
That's the kind of discipline Jesus has in mind.
So if your brother sins against you, go and have it out with him
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alone between your two selves. Have it out Again.
I don't think that's the best translation.
A better English translation here would be something like
this. Go and tell him his fault.
Between you and him alone, our translation makes it sound like
you should go and have an argument with him.
Go and have it out with him. That's not what the Greek says.
The Greek just says go and tell him.
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In fact, more literally what it says here is go and uncover his
sin. It's something.
There's a Greek word there that roughly means uncover.
So go and speak to this disciple.
Basically it means help him realize his sin.
This is a command to the apostles.
Notice Jesus isn't saying you might consider going to talk to
him. He actually says first step is
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you must go and uncover his sin.You must go and tell them
directly, but privately. Notice this is private.
You go to him one-on-one and youtell him this is your sin.
I need to let you know that you've sinned here and it's not
a harsh rebuke, it's actually anact of love to help them see the
wrongdoing. So this is step one, private
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instruction probably directed atthe apostles in particular.
So an apostle or a church leadergoes and tells the Christian
disciple, look, you've sinned here, I just want to point this
out. So he's trying to help them see
the wrongdoing. That's step one.
Jesus says if he listens to you,you have won back your brother.
So according to Jesus, if this works and the person repents,
(08:06):
that's awesome, you've won your brother.
That's the end of the process. The disciple would be regained
and the lost shape is returned. So that's awesome, but not all
of them do that. Verse 16, if he does not listen,
take one or two others along with you.
Now it probably means here if he's speaking specifically to
(08:27):
the apostles, which it seems like he is, probably.
What this means is take one or two other apostles, and it
certainly means take one or two other responsible church
leaders. It's not an instruction for a
random Christian to go talk to arandom Christian.
It's for the church leader who knows that person to go and
speak to them, right. Go and get another, he says.
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You go and take one or two others along with you.
So go and get other church leaders with you.
And why does he say that? He says the evidence of two or
three witnesses is required to sustain any charge or what it
says here. More literally, it doesn't have
the word charge. It just says that every word may
be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
(09:11):
So this is Old Testament criteria.
And it's interesting because this is the judicial What's the
criteria for judicial testimony in the old covenant?
If you're part of the old covenant people of God, then
according to Deuteronomy 1915, if you're going to bring a
charge to someone, there has to be witnesses with you who are
there when you accuse the personof it, or who can also provide
(09:33):
evidence that the person has indeed done the sin.
So that was the criteria for theold covenant people of God.
The fact that Jesus brings this up, he's using the Old Testament
criteria for how to deal with sin probably reinforces the fact
that he sees the Christian Church that he's establishing as
the new Israel, the new covenantpeople, the new Kingdom of God.
(09:55):
So the new covenant people is going to be in a way continuous
but slightly different from the old covenant people.
So basically in this stage 2 here, the picture we have is the
apostle goes to the Christian, warns them a second time that
they've done the wrong thing andthat they need to repent, and
they bring along some witnesses with them, and those witnesses
(10:16):
are also going to tell them the same thing.
Those witnesses will either watch the apostle speaking to
the person, and quite possibly the witnesses would also say
yes, we agree you've done the wrong thing.
So that way in this stage too, it's not just one person telling
the disciple that they've done the wrong thing.
There's multiple people from thechurch leadership telling the
(10:37):
disciple that they've sinned Again, what's the purpose of
this? It's not to just accuse them
full stop. The point of it in Jesus mind is
to heighten the sinners awareness of the seriousness of
their situation. And again, the goal here is to
help them repent. Hopefully they'll wake up and
see the error of their ways and repent.
So you know, you could say that in the 21st century we've lost
(10:59):
this, we've lost this important aspect of Jesus teaching about
the Church. We sometimes have this mentality
that if a Christian sins, well then we can't judge.
We can't judge at all and we should leave them alone.
Well, Jesus says that here, at least for church leaders, they
have an obligation to go and point out to that person their
sin, particularly if it's a grave sin.
(11:20):
There has to be involvement fromthe church leadership here.
Now obviously this applies primarily to the 1st century
because we don't have apostles anymore.
So you can't have an apostle arrive at your house and tell
you that you've committed a sin.So Jesus doesn't have the 21st
century in view here. Not necessarily.
However, as we'll see, there's some principles about the way he
(11:40):
expected the apostles to do thisin the 1st century that probably
do still apply today. So verse 17.
But if he refuses to listen to these, report it to the
community. So this is the situation where
they won't even listen when you bring along the witnesses as
well. Our translation says bring it to
the community, but a better translation here would say tell
(12:02):
it to the church. The word here that's used is
ecclesia, which is what we in English say is church ecclesia.
So Jesus, he uses the word church.
Interesting. It's the second time he uses the
word church in his gospel, in this gospel.
So the first time was in Matthew16 where he says to Peter on
this rock, I'll build my church.And this is the second and only
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other time that Jesus ever uses the word.
So when Jesus uses church here, it must have some connection to
the one other time when he uses it, because he uses it in only
very specific ways. So it must have a connection to
what he said about on this rock.I'll be with my church probably.
In this case, when Jesus mentions church, go and tell it
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to the church. It's referring to the universal
church that Jesus sets up the Kingdom of God on earth, the
church, but as manifested in a local Christian community.
As in go and tell it to the local church authorities.
He doesn't mean go all the way to the Pope, probably not.
He probably means go and tell itto the local church authorities.
(13:08):
And that would be in the 1st century, someone led a church
community led by an apostle or their appointed representatives.
That's what Jesus has in mind here.
Go and see the appointed church authorities.
Now it's worth pointing out whatsome skeptical scholars have
said here. So we talked about the word
church Ecclesia. Some scholars can't believe that
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Jesus would have ever used the word ecclesia, or in particular
they have a problem with the wayJesus describes Ecclesia here
because he seems to describe a church that is really
hierarchical and that can act, enact punishments and
discipline, and a lot of scholars are just not okay with
that. So some scholars have suggested
that Matthew has just made-up these words.
Matthew has just put words in Jesus mouth, or perhaps it was
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added later by a Christian disciple who wanted the church
to look this way, but I don't think we have any reason to
think that's the case. We believe that Matthew did
indeed write this because he wasthere when Jesus said it.
It is part of Jesus view that hewants a hierarchical church, and
we have a good reason for thinking that as well, because
the language Jesus is using is He clearly wants his church to
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be a new covenant community. That is, in a sense a
continuation of the old covenantcommunity, the old covenant
assembly. And when we looked at Matthew
chapter 16, with Peter's great confession of faith, we talked
about how there was in fact an old covenant church.
The word assembly or congregation is used in the Old
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Testament. And it seems that Jesus is sort
of taking that model of Old Testament assembly that they're
familiar with and saying, well, there's a church now, I'm
building my church. And so all of this is coming
into view here. So according to Jesus, church
discipline is a pretty serious matter, particularly for his
leaders. He knows that his leaders are
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going to have to deal with this.And so he's outlined a
three-step procedure for dealingwith serious sin.
So step one, privately confront the Sinner.
So the apostles privately confront the Sinner.
Step 2, they need to address thesin with a circle of witnesses.
Two or three witnesses come withthem and then step three.
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If that doesn't work, they bringthe matter to the church, so to
the actual local church authorities, and they talk about
it properly. On the church level, the
emphasis is always on reconciliation.
At any point in these three steps, the person will hopefully
realize that they've sinned and repent and come back into the
community. That's the emphasis Jesus wants.
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But if none of those three stepswork, verse 17 Jesus tells his
apostles what they have to do ifhe refuses to listen to the
church, treat him like a Pagan or a tax collector.
Now these are strong words, but they're deliberately strong
words. So pagans or gentiles and tax
collectors, what do they have incommon?
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They were both considered by Jews to be sinners who are far
from God. They're basically people who are
known to be outside the covenantcommunity.
So Jews did not associate with Gentiles and tax collectors
because they're not part of God's covenant.
Jesus here is using that model and saying that for this level
of church discipline, once it gets to this stage, well then it
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needs to look similar to that. So he's saying that a Christian
disciple who refuses to listen to the church leadership and
refuses to repent after the three-step process has been
tried, they should be treated inthe same way as gentiles and tax
collectors. In other words, they need to be
treated as though they are no longer part of the new covenant
community. They should be treated as
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outsiders. Now Jesus is not saying you
should hate them, or even that they should be shunned or
ignored, but he is saying that you need to treat them as an
outsider. So Jesus is basically setting up
here for his Christians, for thefor his church, a policy of non
association with unrepentant sinners.
(17:03):
He's telling his apostles, and it will be up to the apostles to
enact this properly, that if it gets to a certain point where a
person has been told repeatedly that they've committed a grave
sin and they don't repent, then the Christian community is not
to associate with these people. This is the disciplinary
punishment which the apostles have the power to enact.
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It's still got the same goal though.
The goal here, even though they've been cast out of the
Christian community for a time, it's still to wake the Sinner
up. That's the goal.
Hopefully, by kicking the personout of the community, the person
will wake up and realize how serious their sin is, and the
hope is that it will draw them to repentance and
reconciliation. There's probably also an element
of protection here. The apostles will need to
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protect the rest of the Christian community from the
influence of that sinful person.They don't want to give the
Christian community the impression that committing grave
sins is okay. So this punishment, this
discipline will fulfill multiplefunctions and it's necessary in
the life of the church. This is basically, if this
sounds like excommunication, that's basically what it is.
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This is the origin of what the Catholic Church now calls
excommunication, which is still practiced, though it's done in a
bit of a different way. This is not the only time in the
New Testament where excommunication is discussed.
Paul actually talks about it a couple of times.
So if you look at 1 Corinthians 5 versus 9 to 13 and then Second
(18:27):
Corinthians 6 versus 14 or 15, and there's also other places
where he talks about handing a person over to Satan.
It's actually a pretty consistent theme of Paul, where
he says if Christians get to a certain point, they need to be
left outside the Christian community in order to learn a
lesson. So if this seems like a strange
teaching, as though something that surely can't be in the New
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Testament, it is there, and it'sactually pretty clear and we
need to talk about it more. So Jesus has said the three
steps and he's talked about whatthe punishment needs to be if
those three steps don't work. And now he gets really explicit
with his apostles. Verse 18.
I tell you solemnly, whatever you bind on earth shall be
considered bound in heaven. Whatever you loose on earth
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shall be considered loosed in heaven.
Now what is binding and loosing mean?
Well, it's actually quite well known.
We don't have to guess about this.
We've found Jewish writings fromthis time.
They already this is not a term Jesus invented.
Binding and loosing was a term used in the 1st century and we
talked about this in Matthew 16.It indicated the power, the
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spiritual authority, to do threethings to make binding decisions
in matters of teaching and discipline.
Secondly, binding and losing wasgave them the power to
excommunicate a person from the community, the spiritual
community. And thirdly, binding and losing
is sometimes used in reference to having authority to forgive
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sins. Jesus here is giving the
Apostles all three things. Binding decisions in matters of
teaching and discipline, power to excommunicate and authority
to forgive sins. You can see that if you look at
Josephus's writing, and the target mentions this as well,
which is a Jewish writing. Interestingly, the Pharisees had
this at the time of Jesus. The Pharisees had binding and
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losing authority. Doesn't mean they're infallible,
but it does mean they were givenauthority by God to make binding
decisions that the Jews had to obey.
Jesus is now giving that same authority, in fact greater
authority, to his apostles. Notice the language he he uses
about heaven. He says whatever you bind on
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earth shall be bound in heaven. So that's supposed to designate
absolute authority. This is a very Jewish way of
saying something like this to his apostles.
Anything you bind will definitely be bound, so it's
guaranteed that anything they bind authoritatively will be
authoritative. And Matthew's Gospel readers
would have clearly understood that with this phrase because
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they would have known their Old Testament very well, that Jesus
is giving his apostles absolute and divine authority in the
Kingdom of God to make binding decisions about the New covenant
church community. There's a lot in here, isn't
there, that could be unpacked. Now in particular, Jesus here is
probably thinking of excommunication because that's
what he's been talking about. So anyone that the apostles
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excommunicate will indeed be cast out of the church.
In God's eyes, God will ratify that decision.
Now don't forget the losing though.
So on the flip side, anyone thatthe apostles are loose, which
probably means to allow back into the church after
repentance, then in God's eyes they're allowed back in as well.
So that's how God's setting it up.
He's actually giving a large amount of authority here to the
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apostles. Jesus had given this power to
Peter already. If you look at chapter 16, he's
already given him this power. Now Jesus gives it to all the
apostles. He doesn't give them all the
keys. Only Peter has the keys.
But all the apostles are clearlyhere given binding and losing.
So this tells us that the other apostles and their successors,
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which are the bishops, share in the office of binding and losing
when they act in harmony with Peter and his successor.
So the other apostles have a derivative and subordinate
authority as royal ministers in the Kingdom.
Fascinating how all this comes together in terms of the
theology of the Kingdom of God. If you're interested in hearing
more about this Kingdom of God'sstuff and the way it works in
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terms of binding and losing, if you're interested in that topic,
then I'd encourage you to look at the Patreon page which is in
the show notes. I've got a whole lecture series
on the Kingdom of God which is being made available to Patreon
supporters, so please have a think about that if you're
interested. Verse 19, Jesus tells them
solemnly once again, so he's already told them solemnly once
about binding and losing. He's going to do it again now,
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so he wants his apostles to understand.
If two of you on earth agree to ask anything at all, it will be
granted to you by my Father in Heaven.
So what it actually says here isif two of you agree on earth
about anything they ask. So the idea here appears to be
that if at least two apostles ortwo church leaders,
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authoritative church leaders, agree about a matter of church
discipline that they want to enact, that's what's in view
here. If two of them agree and say
yes, this is what we need to do,that's what's in view.
It could also refer to asking asin asking God in a prayer.
As in if two of the apostles together pray for a person to
come back into the community. Maybe that's in view.
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Jesus says it will be granted toyou by my Father in heaven.
This is the power the apostles have anything they ask if they
two or more of them agree on it.If they make a matter of a
binding decision, then it will be granted by their Father in
Heaven, so God will ratify theirofficial decisions about the
Church. Now of course we believe that
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the Apostles have the Holy Spirit to guide them in making
the right decisions. But still, the principle here is
Jesus actually gives them authority to make binding
decisions. And we'll talk more about does
that necessarily mean that God approves of them?
Because it may not. Let's keep moving though.
So as Catholics, we believe thatthe same power, the same
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authority continues to the bishops who are the successes of
the Apostles. Although it is modified in a
slightly different way, it's notexactly the same as the
apostles. Notice the connection here
between heaven and earth. Anything the human leaders
decide on earth is going to be ratified in heaven.
So it's like the church is considered an outpost of the
Kingdom of God in heaven. That's a really cool image,
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isn't it? So Jesus has given true binding
earthly leadership of his churchto the Apostle so that any
decision they make will be binding and God will agree that
it should be followed for the sake of church unity, even if it
doesn't correspond to God's ultimate will.
So I'll say that again. The way Jesus has set it up is
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that if they make a binding, authoritative decision, the
apostles, then God will agree that it should be followed for
the sake of tuit unity. It doesn't mean that God
necessarily approves. Not every decision that the
apostles will make necessarily corresponds to God's ultimate
will. There'll be some things that God
will allow for the sake of unity.
He says yes, the Apostles have to be followed, even if it's not
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perfect or infallible. That's certainly the case with
the Pharisees. If we believe the Pharisees had
binding and losing authority, which it looks like they did, or
certainly some of the things they were saying, God required
them to be obeyed. Even if God, even if it didn't
correspond to God's ultimate will, some Christians find that
controversial that God would allow it would give sort of
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binding authority to fallible leaders, that he would give them
that sort of authority to make it binding, even if it's not
perfect and it doesn't correspond to God's will.
But that does seem to be the wayGod sets it up, because he knows
that humans are fallen and that they need leadership and binding
leadership even if it's not always perfect.
(26:02):
Verse 20 for where two or three meet in my name.
Now, in context, probably still thinking about apostles, so two
or three apostles, not Christians in general.
But we should be, we should be careful here because the church
has interpreted this passage in other ways.
So on the literal level, which is what we're all about in this
podcast, when Jesus says we're two or three meet in my name,
(26:24):
he's probably still thinking of church leaders.
But as we'll see, there probablymight be some spiritual
applications of this that might apply to all Christians.
Where two or three meet in my name, I shall be there with
them. Now, I'm sure you've all heard
many sermons that make it sound like Jesus here is directing his
comment to all Christians and he's saying something like this.
(26:45):
If you get together in a prayer group, if there's two or more of
you, then I will be there in your prayer group.
Maybe maybe Jesus does mean thatin a spiritual level, but that's
not the literal level. That's not the most immediate
meaning that he has in mind whenhe says I shall be there with
them. There's a few things to say here
where two or three meet in my name.
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The meet here probably has a specific meaning, as in it's a
formal meeting, not a casual meeting.
So the image that appears to be in view here is Jesus is saying
when two or more apostles gathertogether to discuss matters of
leading the church, then Jesus as the King of the Kingdom will
be there. What does it mean for Jesus to
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be there with them? There's three possible
interpretations here. It could be that Jesus is saying
his spiritual presence will be in that meeting with the
apostles and his spiritual presence will be there through
the Holy Spirit. Second option is maybe Jesus
means he'll be listening to their prayers.
So anything the apostles pray together about Christian
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disciples needing to come back into the church about
excommunication decisions, Jesuswill listen to their prayers.
Or thirdly, and I think this is the best interpretation, when he
says we're two or three meet in my name, I'll be there with
them. He probably means his authority
will be there with them in virtue of the fact that they're
apostles and he's given them hisauthority.
(28:08):
So any decision they make, Jesuswill be there with them.
His authority goes with them. So it's sort of an extension of
what he was saying about the binding authority.
And of course, this echoes the last thing that he says to them
right at the end of the Gospel of Matthew, just before his
ascension, he says, I am with you always.
And that same comment is directed towards the apostles.
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So the apostles have tremendous responsibility when you think
about it. They have all these incredible
authority that's given to them, but there's quite strict ways
that Jesus wants it to be enacted.
But the good thing is, Jesus promises to be with them and
guide them in the way that they enact this binding authority.
So Jesus has told his apostles all this so that they're clear
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on how church discipline should be enacted for Christians who do
serious sin. His basic message to the
apostles here is that when there's a serious sin in the
community, there's a process that they have to follow.
They have to give clear warningsto the Sinner and opportunities
for repentance before excommunicating them.
So quite possibly the meaning incontext could be something like
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this. Now this is just my summary, but
I think it's a decent summary ofthe the flavor of verses 15 to
20. Here.
Jesus says something like this. God does not want any of his
children to be lost, and he goesto great lengths to save them,
which is the message of the parable of the lost sheep.
You too, as apostles, must go togreat lengths to keep disciples
(29:38):
in the Kingdom. But if they keep refusing, there
comes a time when you have done all you can, and at that point
you must treat them as an outsider for the sake of the
unity of my church. I will guide you in this
process, and my authority goes with you.
I think that's a fairly decent summary of what we've seen
there. And hopefully you've seen how
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all those different elements do come together and it's probably
shed new light on that last phrase there about where two or
three meet in my name. I will be there with you.
It certainly did for me. I made a lot of connections here
as I was researching this episode, and that's why exegesis
is so useful and so exciting. Now, there might be a question
in your mind as you hear all this.
You might be thinking that sounds a bit harsh.
(30:19):
There doesn't seem to be a placefor forgiveness.
And it's significant then that the very next thing that
happens, if you look at verse 21, the very next thing that
happens is that Peter was apparently wondering the same
thing because he asks Jesus about forgiveness.
He says, how often should I forgive my brother?
So Jesus, Peter's probably sitting there thinking, well, we
have this amazing authority in the in the coming years, but
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Jesus hasn't said anything aboutforgiveness.
So how does forgiveness work? So it's a natural question to
ask based on what Jesus has justsaid.
If you read on the coming versesand we'll look at this in the
coming days too. Jesus basic answer to Peter is
something like this. Forgiveness is an entirely
different matter. You should forgive someone who
personally wrongs you, so who personally wrongs you an
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infinite number of times. But this is very different from
official church discipline. In your role as leaders of my
new covenant church community, there's a difference between
pointing out a sin and telling aperson that they must repent
versus forgiving them personally.
So Jesus separates out the two things, personal forgiveness
with someone who wrongs you versus church leaders and the
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apostles in particular having tomake excommunication decisions
for the good of the community incases of grave sin.
So, and we should keep those twoin mind as well, because what
Jesus says to Peter about personal forgiveness is the
exact same advice he gives to each of us.
So that next passage is going toapply to all of us equally.
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Now, we're running out of time here, but let's have a really
quick look at some of the Catechism paragraphs which deal
with this, which deal with this passage.
So there's a paragraph there in paragraph 2472 about our
obligation to be a witness to the truth, and it talks about
how witnesses is a really important act of justice.
So I'll include that in the shownotes as well, because that
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links to the start of the passage about bringing witnesses
along paragraph 553. This is about the keys of the
Kingdom, and as you'll see, it matches up well with what we've
said. The power to bind and loose
connotes the authority to absolve sins, to pronounce
doctrinal judgments, and to makedisciplinary decisions in the
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Church. Jesus entrusted this authority
to the Church through the ministry of the Apostles and in
particular through the ministry of Peter, paragraph 1444.
This is a similar teaching. In imparting to his apostles his
own power to forgive sins, the Lord also gives them the
authority to reconcile sinners with the Church.
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The ecclesial dimension of theirtask is expressed most notably
in Christ's solemn words to Simon Peter.
I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven, and whatever
you bind on earth shall be boundin heaven, and whatever you
loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
The office of binding and losing, which was given to
Peter, was also assigned to the College of the Apostles, united
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to its head. So that's an excellent summary
of Catholic teaching about the Apostles authority and the
Bishops authority to bind and loose in the Kingdom.
And it matches well with what we've said the last two
paragraphs, paragraph 1088 and paragraph 1373.
They're both spiritual applications about what Jesus
says about when two or three aregathered in my name, There I am
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with you. So the Church goes on here in
these paragraphs to say that Jesus is present with us in our
liturgy and is also present withus in our prayer as well.
So I'll include those in the show notes if you're interested.
So I hope you'll agree with me that this is one of the most
fascinating passages in the New Testament.
It's underappreciated, but it's one that yields a lot of fruit
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when you dive into it and reallythink about what the words mean
in their context. If you've learned something new
and you think there's other Christians in your life who
might like to hear this as well and would be interested in
diving into it in this depth, then please share this podcast
with them. If you're listening on YouTube
and we do have quite a few YouTube listeners, then please
subscribe and send this YouTube link on to your friends as well.
(34:22):
Thanks so much. We'll continue in Matthew in the
coming days.
Hi everyone. Welcome back to Daily Gospel
Exegesis. And we're all about exactly what
it sounds like. We do an exegesis of the Bible
every single day. We have a look at the gospel
from today's Mass, and we reallydive into the text and see what
it means on the most literal level.
What is it saying in the very words it uses, taking into
account the social and cultural context, so really helping you
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understand the Bible in a bit more of a academic, rigorous
way. Now, today's reading is one of
those ones that I think you'll find really fascinating when we
dive into it in a really good exegetical way.
This is one of these passages where I was making new
connections as I was reading andresearching for it, and
(00:54):
realizing a whole lot of new things about this passage that
are really quite fascinating when you dive into the text.
And I'm sure by the end of this episode you would have learned
something new. There is a lot of really
interesting stuff going on in this passage, so I believe this
is one of these passages where using exegesis properly will
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reveal some really interesting things.
Tell us a lot about Jesus. Tell us a lot about his view of
the Church. And it says a lot about the way
things could be and should be, Iwould say so I think we're
getting into a really interesting episode today, but
see what you think. So we're looking at Matthew
chapter 18 versus 15 to 20. Jesus said to his disciples, if
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your brother does something wrong, go and have it out with
him alone between your two selves.
If he listens to you, you have one back, your brother.
If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you.
The evidence of two or three witnesses is required to sustain
any charge. But if if he refuses to listen
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to these, report it to the community.
And if he refuses to listen to the community, treat him like a
Pagan or a tax collector. I tell you solemnly, whatever
you bind on earth shall be considered bound in heaven.
Whatever you loose on earth shall be considered loosed in
heaven. I tell you solemnly once again,
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If two of you on earth agree to ask anything at all, it will be
granted to you by my Father in heaven.
For where two or three meet in my name, I shall be there with
them. So there's multiple things going
on in this passage that we need to try to bring together.
There's an Old Testament context.
There's the way society functioned in the time of Jesus.
(02:49):
There's the things he was just saying in the previous part of
the chapter. And also there's some
interesting translational issuesof some of the Greek words here.
So let's really dive into it, see what we can learn.
So we're in Chapter 18, and Chapter 18 is sort of the fourth
large sermon in Matthew. This sermon is often called the
ecclesial Sermon on life in the community.
(03:10):
Or you could just call it the Sermon about the church.
So in chapter 18, Jesus talks about a few different things,
but he's clarifying the kind of Kingdom he wants to establish,
and in particular, he's going tofocus on leadership.
So we're going to see here a description of what Jesus wants
his Kingdom to look like after he's gone.
And what we're going to see today in particular is how he
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wants his church to be structured and how church
discipline is to be enacted. What we see here is perhaps the
clearest passage in the entire New Testament about how church
discipline should happen when someone in the church is
sinning. So we should pay attention.
Now, what's the context? Jesus has just told the parable
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of the lost sheep. If you remember, that's what
happened just before this. And the context of that was he
was telling his apostles that God does not want any of his
children, probably meaning Christian disciples, to perish.
That was the whole point of the parable.
He wants his apostles to know that God doesn't want anyone to
be lost. And so it's up to the apostles
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to make sure, as best as I can, that all Christians stay inside
the church. He wants the apostles to look
after other disciples. That's that was sort of the main
teaching from the parable of thelost sheep that forms the
context for what we're about to hear starting at verse 15.
If your brother does something wrong now, that's what our
(04:37):
translation has. It's not a very good one.
The Greek here is quite strong, actually.
It's quite clear. So what it says is if your
brother sins against you, so theword sin is used there.
So Jesus now is going to give the apostles instructions on
what to do when a brother, whichis a Christian disciple, does
something sinful. So that's pretty clear up to
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this point, if your brother does, if your brother sins
against you. Now the context, as we'll see
it, goes on to suggest that the sin, the kind of sins that Jesus
is talking about here, are quiteserious grave sins.
It's not just a small sin, it's some sort of grave, perhaps sin
of a public nature of some kind.And we see that because of the
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extent of the community involvement.
Jesus goes on to describe that for these people and for these
sins, there's going to be an aspect of community involvement.
The community is going to find out about the sin.
Why is he telling the apostles this?
Well, the apostles have greater knowledge and wisdom on these
matters because they travel withJesus and they're given special
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gifts and special authority fromJesus compared to other
believers. So the apostles rank higher than
the other disciples, so they have the power to enact
discipline. That's pretty clear from this
passage. Jesus gives the apostles power
to enact churches discipline. Now that also means they need to
do it responsibly. They have a responsibility to
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make sure that they use it in such a way that it brings
Christians back into the church.They can't just laud it over the
people. So this is all part of what
Jesus was saying about the parable of the lost sheep.
It's all part of preventing the disciple from perishing.
So let's keep that in mind as wego.
The kind of church discipline Jesus has in mind is 1, Where he
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wants to bring the lost sheep back into the fold.
It's to prevent the disciple from perishing.
In other words, all of this is going to be directed towards
helping the Sinner to stop sinning and to repent.
That's the kind of discipline Jesus has in mind.
So if your brother sins against you, go and have it out with him
(06:42):
alone between your two selves. Have it out Again.
I don't think that's the best translation.
A better English translation here would be something like
this. Go and tell him his fault.
Between you and him alone, our translation makes it sound like
you should go and have an argument with him.
Go and have it out with him. That's not what the Greek says.
The Greek just says go and tell him.
(07:03):
In fact, more literally what it says here is go and uncover his
sin. It's something.
There's a Greek word there that roughly means uncover.
So go and speak to this disciple.
Basically it means help him realize his sin.
This is a command to the apostles.
Notice Jesus isn't saying you might consider going to talk to
him. He actually says first step is
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you must go and uncover his sin.You must go and tell them
directly, but privately. Notice this is private.
You go to him one-on-one and youtell him this is your sin.
I need to let you know that you've sinned here and it's not
a harsh rebuke, it's actually anact of love to help them see the
wrongdoing. So this is step one, private
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instruction probably directed atthe apostles in particular.
So an apostle or a church leadergoes and tells the Christian
disciple, look, you've sinned here, I just want to point this
out. So he's trying to help them see
the wrongdoing. That's step one.
Jesus says if he listens to you,you have won back your brother.
So according to Jesus, if this works and the person repents,
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that's awesome, you've won your brother.
That's the end of the process. The disciple would be regained
and the lost shape is returned. So that's awesome, but not all
of them do that. Verse 16, if he does not listen,
take one or two others along with you.
Now it probably means here if he's speaking specifically to
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the apostles, which it seems like he is, probably.
What this means is take one or two other apostles, and it
certainly means take one or two other responsible church
leaders. It's not an instruction for a
random Christian to go talk to arandom Christian.
It's for the church leader who knows that person to go and
speak to them, right. Go and get another, he says.
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You go and take one or two others along with you.
So go and get other church leaders with you.
And why does he say that? He says the evidence of two or
three witnesses is required to sustain any charge or what it
says here. More literally, it doesn't have
the word charge. It just says that every word may
be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
(09:11):
So this is Old Testament criteria.
And it's interesting because this is the judicial What's the
criteria for judicial testimony in the old covenant?
If you're part of the old covenant people of God, then
according to Deuteronomy 1915, if you're going to bring a
charge to someone, there has to be witnesses with you who are
there when you accuse the personof it, or who can also provide
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evidence that the person has indeed done the sin.
So that was the criteria for theold covenant people of God.
The fact that Jesus brings this up, he's using the Old Testament
criteria for how to deal with sin probably reinforces the fact
that he sees the Christian Church that he's establishing as
the new Israel, the new covenantpeople, the new Kingdom of God.
(09:55):
So the new covenant people is going to be in a way continuous
but slightly different from the old covenant people.
So basically in this stage 2 here, the picture we have is the
apostle goes to the Christian, warns them a second time that
they've done the wrong thing andthat they need to repent, and
they bring along some witnesses with them, and those witnesses
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are also going to tell them the same thing.
Those witnesses will either watch the apostle speaking to
the person, and quite possibly the witnesses would also say
yes, we agree you've done the wrong thing.
So that way in this stage too, it's not just one person telling
the disciple that they've done the wrong thing.
There's multiple people from thechurch leadership telling the
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disciple that they've sinned Again, what's the purpose of
this? It's not to just accuse them
full stop. The point of it in Jesus mind is
to heighten the sinners awareness of the seriousness of
their situation. And again, the goal here is to
help them repent. Hopefully they'll wake up and
see the error of their ways and repent.
So you know, you could say that in the 21st century we've lost
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this, we've lost this important aspect of Jesus teaching about
the Church. We sometimes have this mentality
that if a Christian sins, well then we can't judge.
We can't judge at all and we should leave them alone.
Well, Jesus says that here, at least for church leaders, they
have an obligation to go and point out to that person their
sin, particularly if it's a grave sin.
(11:20):
There has to be involvement fromthe church leadership here.
Now obviously this applies primarily to the 1st century
because we don't have apostles anymore.
So you can't have an apostle arrive at your house and tell
you that you've committed a sin.So Jesus doesn't have the 21st
century in view here. Not necessarily.
However, as we'll see, there's some principles about the way he
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expected the apostles to do thisin the 1st century that probably
do still apply today. So verse 17.
But if he refuses to listen to these, report it to the
community. So this is the situation where
they won't even listen when you bring along the witnesses as
well. Our translation says bring it to
the community, but a better translation here would say tell
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it to the church. The word here that's used is
ecclesia, which is what we in English say is church ecclesia.
So Jesus, he uses the word church.
Interesting. It's the second time he uses the
word church in his gospel, in this gospel.
So the first time was in Matthew16 where he says to Peter on
this rock, I'll build my church.And this is the second and only
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other time that Jesus ever uses the word.
So when Jesus uses church here, it must have some connection to
the one other time when he uses it, because he uses it in only
very specific ways. So it must have a connection to
what he said about on this rock.I'll be with my church probably.
In this case, when Jesus mentions church, go and tell it
(12:48):
to the church. It's referring to the universal
church that Jesus sets up the Kingdom of God on earth, the
church, but as manifested in a local Christian community.
As in go and tell it to the local church authorities.
He doesn't mean go all the way to the Pope, probably not.
He probably means go and tell itto the local church authorities.
(13:08):
And that would be in the 1st century, someone led a church
community led by an apostle or their appointed representatives.
That's what Jesus has in mind here.
Go and see the appointed church authorities.
Now it's worth pointing out whatsome skeptical scholars have
said here. So we talked about the word
church Ecclesia. Some scholars can't believe that
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Jesus would have ever used the word ecclesia, or in particular
they have a problem with the wayJesus describes Ecclesia here
because he seems to describe a church that is really
hierarchical and that can act, enact punishments and
discipline, and a lot of scholars are just not okay with
that. So some scholars have suggested
that Matthew has just made-up these words.
Matthew has just put words in Jesus mouth, or perhaps it was
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added later by a Christian disciple who wanted the church
to look this way, but I don't think we have any reason to
think that's the case. We believe that Matthew did
indeed write this because he wasthere when Jesus said it.
It is part of Jesus view that hewants a hierarchical church, and
we have a good reason for thinking that as well, because
the language Jesus is using is He clearly wants his church to
(14:15):
be a new covenant community. That is, in a sense a
continuation of the old covenantcommunity, the old covenant
assembly. And when we looked at Matthew
chapter 16, with Peter's great confession of faith, we talked
about how there was in fact an old covenant church.
The word assembly or congregation is used in the Old
(14:36):
Testament. And it seems that Jesus is sort
of taking that model of Old Testament assembly that they're
familiar with and saying, well, there's a church now, I'm
building my church. And so all of this is coming
into view here. So according to Jesus, church
discipline is a pretty serious matter, particularly for his
leaders. He knows that his leaders are
(14:57):
going to have to deal with this.And so he's outlined a
three-step procedure for dealingwith serious sin.
So step one, privately confront the Sinner.
So the apostles privately confront the Sinner.
Step 2, they need to address thesin with a circle of witnesses.
Two or three witnesses come withthem and then step three.
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If that doesn't work, they bringthe matter to the church, so to
the actual local church authorities, and they talk about
it properly. On the church level, the
emphasis is always on reconciliation.
At any point in these three steps, the person will hopefully
realize that they've sinned and repent and come back into the
community. That's the emphasis Jesus wants.
(15:38):
But if none of those three stepswork, verse 17 Jesus tells his
apostles what they have to do ifhe refuses to listen to the
church, treat him like a Pagan or a tax collector.
Now these are strong words, but they're deliberately strong
words. So pagans or gentiles and tax
collectors, what do they have incommon?
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They were both considered by Jews to be sinners who are far
from God. They're basically people who are
known to be outside the covenantcommunity.
So Jews did not associate with Gentiles and tax collectors
because they're not part of God's covenant.
Jesus here is using that model and saying that for this level
of church discipline, once it gets to this stage, well then it
(16:20):
needs to look similar to that. So he's saying that a Christian
disciple who refuses to listen to the church leadership and
refuses to repent after the three-step process has been
tried, they should be treated inthe same way as gentiles and tax
collectors. In other words, they need to be
treated as though they are no longer part of the new covenant
community. They should be treated as
(16:42):
outsiders. Now Jesus is not saying you
should hate them, or even that they should be shunned or
ignored, but he is saying that you need to treat them as an
outsider. So Jesus is basically setting up
here for his Christians, for thefor his church, a policy of non
association with unrepentant sinners.
(17:03):
He's telling his apostles, and it will be up to the apostles to
enact this properly, that if it gets to a certain point where a
person has been told repeatedly that they've committed a grave
sin and they don't repent, then the Christian community is not
to associate with these people. This is the disciplinary
punishment which the apostles have the power to enact.
(17:23):
It's still got the same goal though.
The goal here, even though they've been cast out of the
Christian community for a time, it's still to wake the Sinner
up. That's the goal.
Hopefully, by kicking the personout of the community, the person
will wake up and realize how serious their sin is, and the
hope is that it will draw them to repentance and
reconciliation. There's probably also an element
of protection here. The apostles will need to
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protect the rest of the Christian community from the
influence of that sinful person.They don't want to give the
Christian community the impression that committing grave
sins is okay. So this punishment, this
discipline will fulfill multiplefunctions and it's necessary in
the life of the church. This is basically, if this
sounds like excommunication, that's basically what it is.
(18:07):
This is the origin of what the Catholic Church now calls
excommunication, which is still practiced, though it's done in a
bit of a different way. This is not the only time in the
New Testament where excommunication is discussed.
Paul actually talks about it a couple of times.
So if you look at 1 Corinthians 5 versus 9 to 13 and then Second
(18:27):
Corinthians 6 versus 14 or 15, and there's also other places
where he talks about handing a person over to Satan.
It's actually a pretty consistent theme of Paul, where
he says if Christians get to a certain point, they need to be
left outside the Christian community in order to learn a
lesson. So if this seems like a strange
teaching, as though something that surely can't be in the New
(18:49):
Testament, it is there, and it'sactually pretty clear and we
need to talk about it more. So Jesus has said the three
steps and he's talked about whatthe punishment needs to be if
those three steps don't work. And now he gets really explicit
with his apostles. Verse 18.
I tell you solemnly, whatever you bind on earth shall be
considered bound in heaven. Whatever you loose on earth
(19:10):
shall be considered loosed in heaven.
Now what is binding and loosing mean?
Well, it's actually quite well known.
We don't have to guess about this.
We've found Jewish writings fromthis time.
They already this is not a term Jesus invented.
Binding and loosing was a term used in the 1st century and we
talked about this in Matthew 16.It indicated the power, the
(19:31):
spiritual authority, to do threethings to make binding decisions
in matters of teaching and discipline.
Secondly, binding and losing wasgave them the power to
excommunicate a person from the community, the spiritual
community. And thirdly, binding and losing
is sometimes used in reference to having authority to forgive
(19:52):
sins. Jesus here is giving the
Apostles all three things. Binding decisions in matters of
teaching and discipline, power to excommunicate and authority
to forgive sins. You can see that if you look at
Josephus's writing, and the target mentions this as well,
which is a Jewish writing. Interestingly, the Pharisees had
this at the time of Jesus. The Pharisees had binding and
(20:14):
losing authority. Doesn't mean they're infallible,
but it does mean they were givenauthority by God to make binding
decisions that the Jews had to obey.
Jesus is now giving that same authority, in fact greater
authority, to his apostles. Notice the language he he uses
about heaven. He says whatever you bind on
(20:35):
earth shall be bound in heaven. So that's supposed to designate
absolute authority. This is a very Jewish way of
saying something like this to his apostles.
Anything you bind will definitely be bound, so it's
guaranteed that anything they bind authoritatively will be
authoritative. And Matthew's Gospel readers
would have clearly understood that with this phrase because
(20:56):
they would have known their Old Testament very well, that Jesus
is giving his apostles absolute and divine authority in the
Kingdom of God to make binding decisions about the New covenant
church community. There's a lot in here, isn't
there, that could be unpacked. Now in particular, Jesus here is
probably thinking of excommunication because that's
what he's been talking about. So anyone that the apostles
(21:19):
excommunicate will indeed be cast out of the church.
In God's eyes, God will ratify that decision.
Now don't forget the losing though.
So on the flip side, anyone thatthe apostles are loose, which
probably means to allow back into the church after
repentance, then in God's eyes they're allowed back in as well.
So that's how God's setting it up.
He's actually giving a large amount of authority here to the
(21:41):
apostles. Jesus had given this power to
Peter already. If you look at chapter 16, he's
already given him this power. Now Jesus gives it to all the
apostles. He doesn't give them all the
keys. Only Peter has the keys.
But all the apostles are clearlyhere given binding and losing.
So this tells us that the other apostles and their successors,
(22:03):
which are the bishops, share in the office of binding and losing
when they act in harmony with Peter and his successor.
So the other apostles have a derivative and subordinate
authority as royal ministers in the Kingdom.
Fascinating how all this comes together in terms of the
theology of the Kingdom of God. If you're interested in hearing
more about this Kingdom of God'sstuff and the way it works in
(22:26):
terms of binding and losing, if you're interested in that topic,
then I'd encourage you to look at the Patreon page which is in
the show notes. I've got a whole lecture series
on the Kingdom of God which is being made available to Patreon
supporters, so please have a think about that if you're
interested. Verse 19, Jesus tells them
solemnly once again, so he's already told them solemnly once
about binding and losing. He's going to do it again now,
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so he wants his apostles to understand.
If two of you on earth agree to ask anything at all, it will be
granted to you by my Father in Heaven.
So what it actually says here isif two of you agree on earth
about anything they ask. So the idea here appears to be
that if at least two apostles ortwo church leaders,
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authoritative church leaders, agree about a matter of church
discipline that they want to enact, that's what's in view
here. If two of them agree and say
yes, this is what we need to do,that's what's in view.
It could also refer to asking asin asking God in a prayer.
As in if two of the apostles together pray for a person to
come back into the community. Maybe that's in view.
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Jesus says it will be granted toyou by my Father in heaven.
This is the power the apostles have anything they ask if they
two or more of them agree on it.If they make a matter of a
binding decision, then it will be granted by their Father in
Heaven, so God will ratify theirofficial decisions about the
Church. Now of course we believe that
(23:54):
the Apostles have the Holy Spirit to guide them in making
the right decisions. But still, the principle here is
Jesus actually gives them authority to make binding
decisions. And we'll talk more about does
that necessarily mean that God approves of them?
Because it may not. Let's keep moving though.
So as Catholics, we believe thatthe same power, the same
(24:15):
authority continues to the bishops who are the successes of
the Apostles. Although it is modified in a
slightly different way, it's notexactly the same as the
apostles. Notice the connection here
between heaven and earth. Anything the human leaders
decide on earth is going to be ratified in heaven.
So it's like the church is considered an outpost of the
Kingdom of God in heaven. That's a really cool image,
(24:36):
isn't it? So Jesus has given true binding
earthly leadership of his churchto the Apostle so that any
decision they make will be binding and God will agree that
it should be followed for the sake of church unity, even if it
doesn't correspond to God's ultimate will.
So I'll say that again. The way Jesus has set it up is
(24:57):
that if they make a binding, authoritative decision, the
apostles, then God will agree that it should be followed for
the sake of tuit unity. It doesn't mean that God
necessarily approves. Not every decision that the
apostles will make necessarily corresponds to God's ultimate
will. There'll be some things that God
will allow for the sake of unity.
He says yes, the Apostles have to be followed, even if it's not
(25:20):
perfect or infallible. That's certainly the case with
the Pharisees. If we believe the Pharisees had
binding and losing authority, which it looks like they did, or
certainly some of the things they were saying, God required
them to be obeyed. Even if God, even if it didn't
correspond to God's ultimate will, some Christians find that
controversial that God would allow it would give sort of
(25:41):
binding authority to fallible leaders, that he would give them
that sort of authority to make it binding, even if it's not
perfect and it doesn't correspond to God's will.
But that does seem to be the wayGod sets it up, because he knows
that humans are fallen and that they need leadership and binding
leadership even if it's not always perfect.
(26:02):
Verse 20 for where two or three meet in my name.
Now, in context, probably still thinking about apostles, so two
or three apostles, not Christians in general.
But we should be, we should be careful here because the church
has interpreted this passage in other ways.
So on the literal level, which is what we're all about in this
podcast, when Jesus says we're two or three meet in my name,
(26:24):
he's probably still thinking of church leaders.
But as we'll see, there probablymight be some spiritual
applications of this that might apply to all Christians.
Where two or three meet in my name, I shall be there with
them. Now, I'm sure you've all heard
many sermons that make it sound like Jesus here is directing his
comment to all Christians and he's saying something like this.
(26:45):
If you get together in a prayer group, if there's two or more of
you, then I will be there in your prayer group.
Maybe maybe Jesus does mean thatin a spiritual level, but that's
not the literal level. That's not the most immediate
meaning that he has in mind whenhe says I shall be there with
them. There's a few things to say here
where two or three meet in my name.
(27:06):
The meet here probably has a specific meaning, as in it's a
formal meeting, not a casual meeting.
So the image that appears to be in view here is Jesus is saying
when two or more apostles gathertogether to discuss matters of
leading the church, then Jesus as the King of the Kingdom will
be there. What does it mean for Jesus to
(27:26):
be there with them? There's three possible
interpretations here. It could be that Jesus is saying
his spiritual presence will be in that meeting with the
apostles and his spiritual presence will be there through
the Holy Spirit. Second option is maybe Jesus
means he'll be listening to their prayers.
So anything the apostles pray together about Christian
(27:47):
disciples needing to come back into the church about
excommunication decisions, Jesuswill listen to their prayers.
Or thirdly, and I think this is the best interpretation, when he
says we're two or three meet in my name, I'll be there with
them. He probably means his authority
will be there with them in virtue of the fact that they're
apostles and he's given them hisauthority.
(28:08):
So any decision they make, Jesuswill be there with them.
His authority goes with them. So it's sort of an extension of
what he was saying about the binding authority.
And of course, this echoes the last thing that he says to them
right at the end of the Gospel of Matthew, just before his
ascension, he says, I am with you always.
And that same comment is directed towards the apostles.
(28:31):
So the apostles have tremendous responsibility when you think
about it. They have all these incredible
authority that's given to them, but there's quite strict ways
that Jesus wants it to be enacted.
But the good thing is, Jesus promises to be with them and
guide them in the way that they enact this binding authority.
So Jesus has told his apostles all this so that they're clear
(28:52):
on how church discipline should be enacted for Christians who do
serious sin. His basic message to the
apostles here is that when there's a serious sin in the
community, there's a process that they have to follow.
They have to give clear warningsto the Sinner and opportunities
for repentance before excommunicating them.
So quite possibly the meaning incontext could be something like
(29:15):
this. Now this is just my summary, but
I think it's a decent summary ofthe the flavor of verses 15 to
20. Here.
Jesus says something like this. God does not want any of his
children to be lost, and he goesto great lengths to save them,
which is the message of the parable of the lost sheep.
You too, as apostles, must go togreat lengths to keep disciples
(29:38):
in the Kingdom. But if they keep refusing, there
comes a time when you have done all you can, and at that point
you must treat them as an outsider for the sake of the
unity of my church. I will guide you in this
process, and my authority goes with you.
I think that's a fairly decent summary of what we've seen
there. And hopefully you've seen how
(29:58):
all those different elements do come together and it's probably
shed new light on that last phrase there about where two or
three meet in my name. I will be there with you.
It certainly did for me. I made a lot of connections here
as I was researching this episode, and that's why exegesis
is so useful and so exciting. Now, there might be a question
in your mind as you hear all this.
You might be thinking that sounds a bit harsh.
(30:19):
There doesn't seem to be a placefor forgiveness.
And it's significant then that the very next thing that
happens, if you look at verse 21, the very next thing that
happens is that Peter was apparently wondering the same
thing because he asks Jesus about forgiveness.
He says, how often should I forgive my brother?
So Jesus, Peter's probably sitting there thinking, well, we
have this amazing authority in the in the coming years, but
(30:44):
Jesus hasn't said anything aboutforgiveness.
So how does forgiveness work? So it's a natural question to
ask based on what Jesus has justsaid.
If you read on the coming versesand we'll look at this in the
coming days too. Jesus basic answer to Peter is
something like this. Forgiveness is an entirely
different matter. You should forgive someone who
personally wrongs you, so who personally wrongs you an
(31:05):
infinite number of times. But this is very different from
official church discipline. In your role as leaders of my
new covenant church community, there's a difference between
pointing out a sin and telling aperson that they must repent
versus forgiving them personally.
So Jesus separates out the two things, personal forgiveness
with someone who wrongs you versus church leaders and the
(31:28):
apostles in particular having tomake excommunication decisions
for the good of the community incases of grave sin.
So, and we should keep those twoin mind as well, because what
Jesus says to Peter about personal forgiveness is the
exact same advice he gives to each of us.
So that next passage is going toapply to all of us equally.
(31:48):
Now, we're running out of time here, but let's have a really
quick look at some of the Catechism paragraphs which deal
with this, which deal with this passage.
So there's a paragraph there in paragraph 2472 about our
obligation to be a witness to the truth, and it talks about
how witnesses is a really important act of justice.
So I'll include that in the shownotes as well, because that
(32:10):
links to the start of the passage about bringing witnesses
along paragraph 553. This is about the keys of the
Kingdom, and as you'll see, it matches up well with what we've
said. The power to bind and loose
connotes the authority to absolve sins, to pronounce
doctrinal judgments, and to makedisciplinary decisions in the
(32:30):
Church. Jesus entrusted this authority
to the Church through the ministry of the Apostles and in
particular through the ministry of Peter, paragraph 1444.
This is a similar teaching. In imparting to his apostles his
own power to forgive sins, the Lord also gives them the
authority to reconcile sinners with the Church.
(32:51):
The ecclesial dimension of theirtask is expressed most notably
in Christ's solemn words to Simon Peter.
I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven, and whatever
you bind on earth shall be boundin heaven, and whatever you
loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
The office of binding and losing, which was given to
Peter, was also assigned to the College of the Apostles, united
(33:12):
to its head. So that's an excellent summary
of Catholic teaching about the Apostles authority and the
Bishops authority to bind and loose in the Kingdom.
And it matches well with what we've said the last two
paragraphs, paragraph 1088 and paragraph 1373.
They're both spiritual applications about what Jesus
says about when two or three aregathered in my name, There I am
(33:36):
with you. So the Church goes on here in
these paragraphs to say that Jesus is present with us in our
liturgy and is also present withus in our prayer as well.
So I'll include those in the show notes if you're interested.
So I hope you'll agree with me that this is one of the most
fascinating passages in the New Testament.
It's underappreciated, but it's one that yields a lot of fruit
(33:57):
when you dive into it and reallythink about what the words mean
in their context. If you've learned something new
and you think there's other Christians in your life who
might like to hear this as well and would be interested in
diving into it in this depth, then please share this podcast
with them. If you're listening on YouTube
and we do have quite a few YouTube listeners, then please
subscribe and send this YouTube link on to your friends as well.
(34:22):
Thanks so much. We'll continue in Matthew in the
coming days.
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