A Song of What-If and Fire

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:08):
Hello everyone, welcome to Dancing with Dragons,
a podcast dedicated toeverything related to the world
of a song of ice and firecreated by George R.R.
Martin.
I'm one of your hosts, Minua,joined here by my co-host Tony,
and tonight we have a veryspecial returning guest, a
friend of the podcast and afriend of both Tony and I.
It's Shan from a Fellowship ofthe Mic podcast.
Also known as At Film Forager onInstagram.

(00:30):
Shan, our fellow fantasyenthusiast, is here today, her
third time on Dancing withDragons for a very fun episode.
Today we're back with anotherWhat If episode, Game of Thrones
Season 3 edition.
We'll be exploring how Game ofThrones could have gotten
entirely different if only smallchanges happened in season 3.
Tony and I really enjoy doingthese what-if episodes.
They get our mind going and italmost allows us to look at the

(00:50):
story in a new way, opening oureyes further to the vastness of
George's universe, but also howintricately written the story
is, and we're so excited to haveShan join us today and share her
perspective, especially sinceshe's currently reading A Storm
of Swords.
Shan, welcome back to thepodcast.
How are you?
I'm pretty good.
How are you guys?

SPEAKER_00 (01:07):
Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 (01:08):
Of course, we're doing well.
Tony, how are you?

SPEAKER_03 (01:11):
I'm doing well.
I'm trying to write questionsfor Shan here.
Uh yeah, so I was mentioning toher earlier that in when we did
season one, what if we had herco-host of her podcast?
Yeah.
Louis, well, he wasn't yourco-host at the time, but we had
a fun time doing season one anduh the season two and now season
three.
I thought of you, I'm like,let's just have some fun.

(01:32):
I wanted to do a uh this wassupposed to be our blood and
cheese episode, but I'm like,that's such a heavy topic.
I I don't want to do like amillion hours of research and
reading and watch.
I'm like, let's just do water ofseason three since they just
finished the season, but I'mready to go.

SPEAKER_01 (01:48):
Yeah, I think that's releasing a blood and cheese
episode like around the holidaysis kind of a bit weird, not very
holiday friendly, it's grim.
Uh, but we'll definitely getaround to releasing that
episode, whether it's a grimtime or not.
Um but Shan, I you said, youknow, I'm glad you're doing
well, but I saw on yourInstagram story you said that
you're a bit hopeful, but alsonot because we received some, I

(02:10):
guess, disappointing news in theworld of Game of Thrones slash
TV and film lately, which isWarner Brothers buying Netflix.
So uh like how are you feelingnow?
I know that you you were a bituh uh upset about it, but then
you also like seemed reassured,I think, in your stories.

SPEAKER_00 (02:27):
I took the news pretty hard um because and I I
didn't really think about it inHBO terms so much, just mostly
the theatrical aspect becauseit's a major streaming service.
It's the number one streamingservice taking over, well, the
number three streaming service,but also with no promise of prom

(02:47):
like keeping the theatrical runsfor movies because it's Netflix.
Um, and they haven't reallyreleased a whole lot of movies
theatrically to begin with.
I but I'm feeling hopeful interms of like this merger hasn't
it's not done yet, you know.
Like maybe, maybe it won't gothrough, you know, and then

(03:08):
Netflix will have to just paythe five billion dollars um fees
and canceling their contract orwhatever.
But it's gonna be messy for afew years until this maybe this
investigation goes through.

SPEAKER_03 (03:21):
I think Paramount was the one that was trying to
bid as well, right?

SPEAKER_00 (03:25):
Yeah, and we're Paramount started it.

SPEAKER_03 (03:27):
Yeah, so I I think that would make more sense.
Uh for me, it's just the firstthing I thought was like okay,
all the shows are gonna be bad.
Yeah, because we're gonna, oryou know how Netflix Netflix
does is that they'll cut a show,even though it's good, and
they'll have a crappy show for15 seasons.
But then again, I'm thinkingabout okay, I guess the head of

(03:50):
like I forgot his name, Tedsomething.
Ted Sarrandos.
Yeah, people here, people justwant to be at home.
Yeah, the way the world is now,people are so they don't make
time for anything.
So when you you you ever seenthat thing about second oh yeah,
second screen, second screenviewing, like you're not really
paying that.
Even when I go to the theater,not as much, I still see people

(04:14):
on their phones.
I'm like, okay, so you came allthe way over here, you paid your
money, you paid, and you're onyour phone, which I just hate.
I even hate seeing the light ofa phone on.
They can use that as an excuseand be like, well, see, people
don't go, and people only gowhen it's a major, major movie.
Like uh, I guess Zootopia 2 ismaking like a zillion dollars,

(04:37):
but then again, you don't givethe movies time to make money.
I remember when I was growing upin the olden days, a movie would
stay in the theater, likeTitanic was in the theater for a
year plus because they keptmaking money.
Nowadays, Titanic would beavailable to rent within three
weeks in your house.

(04:58):
So, and I would get upset backin the day because oh, I love
this movie, but now I'm gonnahave to wait a year before I
even see it on VHS.
You know, it you would have timenow.
The only way a movie would beremoved from the theater if it
was a really piece of crap, likeit made nothing.
But now it's just like itdoesn't matter who the movies
with uh with the quality, it itjust you they want to make the

(05:20):
money more money again.
When you think about peoplelike, well, do I want to go to
the theater and spend sixtydollars on food?
And then they're thinking aboutthat, or do I rent it for 20
bucks at home?
So it's just it's a hard thing.
Like, I don't agree with it, Ihate it.
But then you have those peoplewho are not enthusiasts as us,
and they're yeah, it's easierfor them to be like, Well, I'm

(05:41):
just gonna rent it.
They don't realize the cinema,they don't see it like that.
No, they see like, well, I'mgonna be home, I could put my
pajamas on, and I could justwatch wicket, whatever, in my
house, or um the new avatar.
It's okay if I watch it in mylaptop.

SPEAKER_00 (05:57):
Yeah.
And for for a small theater, umthe we talk a lot about this
45-day window gap thing, um, andthe fact that he's wanting to
decrease it, like it's a bigdeal because studios already
have a hold on how long we cankeep movies.
So, like for a two-screen,that's what I manage.

(06:21):
It's like, all right, well, ifthey say he wants to do it for
25 days or whatever, I don'tknow what his strategy is.
But if he lowers that, then likewe're a first-run theater, so we
do get premieres.
Um, but we like put our othermovies into our other screen.

(06:41):
Um, so like something that'scalled a second run, which is
the next two weeks.
Um, and so if Disney, so forAvatar, we have to keep Avatar
for four weeks.
Disney will not let us breakthat unless it does really
poorly on the third week, thenmaybe we can get out of the
fourth week.
But right now our contract isfor four weeks.

(07:02):
So it's like, okay, well, wehave to keep this movie for 30
days, basically.
And if we do that, then and thenTed Serendos wants to, you know,
it's just like a whole thingwhere um people will just go,
well, let's just wait for it tocome on streaming.
Like we don't have to go do itin the theaters because it's
just gonna come on streaming ina week.

(07:24):
So why why do we have to go payyeah, 50 bucks to go to the
theater?
And so it's just like Netflix, Idon't know, this whole
theatrical thing is uh like areal bummer because they I don't
know, they they aren't they justwant the catalog, they don't
want anything else, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (07:43):
And also you have movies like The Irishman and
like the Knives Out, the newones.
Like people are thinking, okay,so I'm paying 20 something bucks
a month for Netflix.
So now you want me to go to thetheater to watch a movie that
you're gonna have on Netflixnext week.
What's the point of that?
Like that's another thing peopleare thinking about.

(08:03):
Like Knives Out, I think ismaybe in the theaters, the new
one, and then but it comes outDecember 12th on Netflix.

SPEAKER_00 (08:11):
Um yeah, in limited theaters, not even a wide
release.

SPEAKER_03 (08:14):
Yeah, and it's it's just kind of like okay, well, if
you're a nonchalant person,you're like, Well, I'm just
gonna wait.
Why, why even get out of myhouse?
Like, I'm not gonna go.

SPEAKER_01 (08:24):
Yeah, I mean, I just had a conversation with one with
someone like this past week orweek or two, where she said the
same thing.
She wasn't a big fan of film oror TV, you know, she's like a
casual fan who just watches umat home.
And she said the same thing,like, Oh, I thought her, oh,
this movie's really good.
Um, I don't know if it waswicked or one batter after
another.
And then she said, Oh, I'll justwait for for whenever it's on

(08:47):
streaming, whenever it's onApple TV.
And uh this was way before, likethis was like uh saying weeks
now, like maybe two weeks beforethe news dropped about Netflix
and and Warner Brothers.
So unfortunately, that type ofaudience represents the
majority.
So we are a niche now that wedon't want to go and make an
experience out of going to thecinema and it's disappointing.
And at the same time, I wonderif Netflix themselves, like they

(09:09):
obviously want shorten thetheatrical window, but uh it
makes me wonder then if they'reso passionate about making this
the standard model, then why didfor example when K-pop Demon
Hunters was uh like number one,they uh then released it in
cinemas because they knew thatthat would kind of have uh uh
that would make a different typeof like a different type of
money, you know what I'm saying?
People are paying 20 or maybe 20dollars, I don't know, for one

(09:32):
ticket, whereas in they'realready paying for the Netflix
subscription, they're just goingfor the theatrical uh
experience.
So if they understood that thetheatrical experience could
provide something more and couldhave that uh pull, then why are
they also at the same time likeseeking out its I don't call it
demise, but you know what Imean?
Like, why are they workingtowards its um extinction?

(09:54):
Like they obviously did that fora reason.
So they a part of them knowsthat it's uh it's good and that
it could do something, I guess,even for a community that's uh
that streaming can't do.
So I don't know, but also um TedFernandos in his quotes, um, he
I don't want to quote the wholething, but he said that um
beloved franchises, shows, andmovies such as the Big Bang

(10:15):
Theory, The Sopranos, Game ofThrones, The Wizard of Oz, and
the DC Universe will joinNetflix's extensive portfolio,
including Wednesday, MoneyHeist, Bridgerton, Adolescence,
and Extraction.
So, I mean, when you comparethose titles next to each other,
it's like what like you'recomparing Game of Thrones and
the Wizard of Oz and DCUniverse, which has all the

(10:36):
known in movies as well.
Not even that, the Sopranos.
And the Sopranos.
So, like extra what even isextraction?
Is that like that Liam Hemsworthor Chris Hemsworth movie?
Like no one knows what that is.
It's their franchises are notbeloved anymore.
Like Wednesday, I guess, isfine, but I think the only
person like not many people lovethat show.
Like it's not doesn't have thatsame impact that's the Sopranos

(10:58):
and Game of Thrones does.
You know, same thing foradolescents, okay?
It's one Emmys, but I'm sorry,like I think a lot of people
forgot about it.
Uh I I don't know, I could bewrong.
Same thing for Money Heists.
The quality in Bridgerton, thequality of those shows
completely dipped in the laterseason.
So I mean, and to include theWizard of Oz there too.
I mean, come on.

SPEAKER_03 (11:16):
Yeah, we don't know about Netflix.
They're so uh it's such so umthey hide everything so well.
Like, we don't know thosenumbers they put out are real.
Like, you know the new theNielsen ratings, and you oh this
show has 50 million or 20million viewers an episode, and
they'll they'll put out minutes.
Oh, okay, like they could justbe fabricating that we don't
even know what's going on andhow they determine that.

(11:39):
And it's just I would have had abetter uh felt better if like uh
Apple because I know Apple islike dedicated to to movies and
and and they're actually doingprobably for me is the number
one service in quality of shows.
Like every show I watch now fromApple TV is like legit good.

(12:00):
I'm not gonna get political herebecause it's it'll be bad.
Uh so if it this has happenedbefore back like a hundred years
ago.
I don't know if you know likethe the railroad history, uh you
know how the monopolies for therailroad they they wanted to
have one giant company, and umPresident Roosevelt said no,
like he put a stop to it, likehe went to the Supreme Court,

(12:21):
like no, no, you can't do that,you can't just have one
conglomerate like major company.
So he kind of broke it up, heforced us, but anyway, that
would never happen nowadaysbecause we're so it's all about
greed and money, so we can't uhwait for the people to do the
right thing.
Uh, the only thing I do see arepeople speaking out, big people
directors, or like we can't havethis, and maybe yeah, but again,

(12:45):
like how are you going to turndown money?
Like, if they're offering thisexane amount of money for what
are you gonna if you're ashareholder, that's all you care
about.

SPEAKER_00 (12:56):
But at what cost?
I mean, Adam Sandler alreadysold his soul to Netflix, like
like in the case, and that's thething because they they somehow
have this endless amount ofmoney, but yet they're in debt.

SPEAKER_03 (13:09):
Like they're they give you, they'll give uh uh
Scorsese 400 million dollars tomake a movie.
How do they make that moneyback?
People are not buying Netflix tosee a four-hour movie about
indigenous, you know what Imean?
Like that they're not makingtheir movie and their money
back.
They'll give uh The Rock andthis 80 million for a movie and

(13:30):
and and just like anyway.

SPEAKER_00 (13:33):
The the biggest complaint for Killers of the
Flower Moon, we had that at ourtheater, and the biggest
complaint was just that Scoresays he didn't uh create um an
intermission.
That was the only complaint.
Like people still wanted to comesee his movie, even though it
was three and a half hours, butthe complaint was that they he
didn't build in an intermissionfor the movie, and we're not
gonna do that.

(13:53):
Like, we don't want to mess upthe flow of the movie, so we
don't add intermissions.

SPEAKER_03 (13:57):
All right, pause everybody, go to the bathroom.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (14:00):
And so anyway, to conclude for on my like thing
with this is that just if theywanna lower, if they want to
lessen the window of theatricalruns, then the studios need to
like take a grip off of how longwe have to keep it in the movie
theater.
Like that's what we're reallytrying to work on and lobby for.

(14:22):
Um, and yeah, like if it doesgood for two weeks, Disney
Avatar, we're cutting it aftertwo weeks.
Like, we should have some say inhow long we keep it if you're
just gonna have it streaming in31 days, you know.
Like, so that's the big thingthat we have to do.

SPEAKER_03 (14:39):
Or have the also the the chance to say, hey, can we
keep it longer?
This is making a lot of moneyfor us.

SPEAKER_00 (14:46):
Yeah, we can we can do that, no problem.

SPEAKER_03 (14:48):
Okay, then this is selling out every show, like we
need to have it.
But if you if you notice, likemaybe because you're in a small
town, maybe everybody's gonna gowatch it the first weekend, and
then the next weekend, it's justlike okay, it's not that many
people here, they're not gonnare-watch it.
We're not crazy like before,where we would go to the theater
10 times.

SPEAKER_00 (15:08):
And another thing it too is that um, and this is just
specific to like my town,because I'm a university town.
In the summer, there's summerblockbusters, but literally all
the students leave.
So Jurassic World uh rebirth didhorribly here, but we had to
keep it for three weeks becausewe wanted to take it on the on
the premiere day.
Um, but that's just the onlythat was the only blockbuster

(15:32):
that was really like that weneeded in the summertime, but we
didn't have anyone show up forit because no students were
here.
Half our population was gone.

SPEAKER_01 (15:40):
Wow.
I I wanna uh like just make onemore point, combining kind of
something that you said withsomething that Tony said, which
is that um Netflix kind of uhyou said, Shan, that Netflix
wanna buy it for the uh for thelibrary, they want to buy Warner
Brothers for their library, butat the same time, it's out of I
think it's just an ego thing oftrying to say, as he said in the

(16:02):
in the statement, like, webought the Game of Thrones, we
have the Sopranos, we bought theWizard of Oz, now it's ours.
But they don't really care aboutabout those franchises or about
those stories at all.
And they don't care about havingthe uh like preserving the
library and the cataloguebecause Warner Brothers is you
know like one of the oldest filmstudios in the US, they produce

(16:23):
all those movies, and yet onNetflix you don't see any
classics.
So I'm sure that Netflix has therights to classics and
must-watch movies for Cinefly.

SPEAKER_03 (16:35):
Yeah, they have the AMC section where they have the
old old movies.

SPEAKER_01 (16:38):
You can see like all the Japanese HBO isn't available
where I am, so I I uh yeah, so II HBO does have a lot, a lot, a
lot of old, old movies, likeclassic movies.

SPEAKER_00 (16:48):
The T Turner classic movies, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (16:50):
TCM, okay also was there, yeah.
They also have a lot ofinternational Japanese, a lot
Japanese, French, German, allthat stuff.
So like I don't know, is thatgonna go anyway?
So I did read that um a lot ofthe contracts are not are
written till like 2030.
A lot of these movies and shows,so they wouldn't have control

(17:13):
over certain shows if this goesthrough until like 2030.
So let's say they do get it, andyou have House of the Dragon, or
okay, are they all gonna drop onthe same day?
Are we gonna like who's I don'twant to even think about it.

SPEAKER_00 (17:30):
Just because I I just thought of something else
too.
With uh everyone at the theater,they keep calling, hey, are you
gonna get the Stranger Thingsfinale?
It's only exclusive to theaters.
Um, no, Netflix handpicked 500theaters.
We're not getting it, we're notin the 500 of you know, 4500
theaters in the in the UnitedStates were not on the top of

(17:51):
the lists.
Yeah, so it's like Netflix isalso trying to say, Hey, we care
about theaters, we're only gonnadrop the finale in theaters.
Uh no, you don't.
You're only handpickingcinemaplexes, you're not
handpicking handpicking anyindependent nonprofits.
So you don't actually care abouttheaters because cinema plexes
are also not good.

SPEAKER_03 (18:10):
So I'm assuming that just pretty much the vast
majority of those theaters arein the big cities, like east and
west coast.
Yeah, it's just kind of likescary but maybe Chicago will get
some.

SPEAKER_00 (18:21):
Maybe I didn't check, but probably Chicago.

SPEAKER_03 (18:24):
So, all right, so let's move on.
This is kind of depressing, andit's maybe yeah, yeah.
Please let's talk about thenewest trailer of the Knight of
the Seven Kingdoms.
We did a whole episode about theteaser.
Uh, we won't get into toodetail, but I wanted to ask Shan
since you haven't read the book.
What are your expectations ingoing into this show?

(18:45):
Did you enjoy the trailer?
What did what did you see in thetrailer that got you going, hmm?
Maybe I'm gonna like this show.

SPEAKER_00 (18:52):
The humor.
I love comedy, and I thinkthat's going to be really
refreshing.
Um, of course, it still has somedark aspects that I saw in the
theater, like the actual thegames, what are they called?

SPEAKER_03 (19:04):
Oh, jousting.

SPEAKER_00 (19:05):
The jousting, yeah.
Like those look really muddy anddark, you know.
But I don't know.
I think I like the teaser morebecause it did show a little bit
more of like the walking and theadventure and like the banter
between the two.
And this showed a lot more oflike yeah, like the jousting
games, etc.
But um, I have a question.
Did I see the actor who playsPotterick in there?

(19:27):
It looked just like him.
Oh, and I was like, why and how?
Because that doesn't make anysense.

SPEAKER_03 (19:33):
Oh, the guy who was on the fence or something?

SPEAKER_00 (19:35):
No, he was just like talking to uh the knight.
I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 (19:40):
I don't I'm assuming that if it was, it would be all
over everywhere.
So I don't I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 (19:46):
Yeah, it just looked exactly like him, and I was
like, but wait, wait, wait,wait, what?
It's a hundred years beforethat.

SPEAKER_03 (19:53):
Yeah, the biggest thing for me was seeing Baylor,
Targaryen, or Brickspear.
He has in the book, he has dark.
Hair and they gave him darkhair.
And I don't understand why theydidn't give Rainice the black
hair with the silver streaks.
They did it with everybody else.
They did it with you knowVernera's kids, and why not just
give her the blood?
She would have just stood up.

SPEAKER_00 (20:14):
Was he the one who says, How good of a knight are
you?

SPEAKER_03 (20:16):
Yeah, so he's um he is the heir to the throne.
His dad is the king there on thesecond.
And he's also the hand of theking at the time.
Yeah, he's a big character.
I don't he doesn't really comeout in the book, but he's this
trailer is 70% of it is focusedon the finale, which is gonna be

(20:37):
the I won't say um what's gonnago on, but yeah, um you could
totally tell it's the humor,like you said.
Um I think everybody's gonnafall in love with Dunk and Egg
when they're together becauseit's just he's so adorable.
How can you not love Egg?
You also get to see PrinceMakar.
Makar is the father of ourbeloved Maester Amon.

(21:00):
That's kind of cool, and he'salso the Arian's father as well.
I don't forget.
Yeah, they the the Targaryenwho's kind of like the villain,
he has that cool mask, the coolhelm, and he has this he has the
short hair, which is kind ofweird because so in the in the
novel, he it doesn't have shorthair, but they gave him short

(21:20):
hair, and it's like they're justanyway.
I I think this is gonna be themost um faithful to uh
adaptation we've gotten so farin terms of of George's books.

SPEAKER_01 (21:32):
Yeah, I think so too, and I actually like this
trailer.
I didn't get the chance to watchit until like just a few minutes
before we started recording.
But um I thought that made memore excited than the other
teasers and trailers, anythingelse that we've gotten before.
I think that this uh to me, thisthis appealed to me the most.
And I I can't wait.
Looks really cool.

(21:52):
And I love that shot of umDunk's armor, like when when you
go to kind of like thro you seehis POV.
Yeah, I can't wait.
I think it's gonna be I thinkit's gonna be really good.
I hope so, but I have a goodfeeling.

SPEAKER_03 (22:03):
And it's it's it's gonna not suck, but it's gonna
be like, god damn it, why is itonly 30 minutes?
Because we're like 30-35minutes, and it's just like six
episodes, but at least we getthe next season, the next year,
we don't have to wait the twoyears.
So that's the only bright, youknow, looking on the bright
side.
Meanwhile, I mentioned that youwere reading Storm of Swords, so

(22:26):
that means you've read you readthe first two.
In your opinion, after you readthe first one, or even the
second one, what was the biggestthing you got out of it of the
differences you could tellbetween the show and the book?

SPEAKER_00 (22:40):
Um well, one and two are pretty similar to the show.
I had a whole list of thingsthat I was mentally keeping.
Um so far, the big thing thatI'm noticing so far in the third
book is that um for characterdeaths, um, and don't spoil it
for me yet, because I haven'tfinished the book, Great John is

(23:03):
still alive.
Theon didn't behead him.
And so I'm maybe it still canhappen.
Maybe Ramsey can be the one todo it.
But um, but the other majorthing, I guess, is the magic.
I love Bran.
He's my favorite character, bookcharacter.
And whenever I get to Bran'schapters, I I just like this is
I get cozy with my book, and I'mjust like, okay, it's a brand

(23:25):
chapter, and I he has all themagic and the green scene.
And right now I'm with uh Miraand Jojen and Bran and Hodar,
and it's just those are mycomfort chapters.
I love those.
I love all the magic.

SPEAKER_03 (23:39):
And you're not the only one when I see hear people
talk about the books and theshow, and they saw the show
first and then read the books,they're like, Bran was like in
the show, Bran is like by theend, you're like, he's so
whatever.
We don't really care aboutBranny.
You're useless, he didn't doanything.
But in the in the book, they'relike, Oh, he's so amazing.

(24:00):
Um, and the same with like John,people love John Book John more
than show John, not themajority, but I've heard a lot
of people say that.
So you're not the first personto say Bran.
And I I don't understand why wedon't we didn't get all of this
magical element, and because youwould have had the 10 seasons

(24:21):
and we would have had a certaincharacter that we'll talk about
soon.
But uh yeah, I'm just happy bothof you are reading Minois and
the you finished the fourth one?

SPEAKER_01 (24:31):
I finished.
Okay.
Uh on a dream, a dream ofspring, I wish.
Um that's all dream about Danceof Dragons.
Yeah.
Um, I'm on uh Dance of Dragons.
I was gonna say I'm on Dancingof Dragons.
Um but like just like maybe thefirst chapter or two, like I I

(24:51):
like I wouldn't really count itas like me starting, starting it
just yeah, so it's funny.

SPEAKER_03 (24:56):
I sent I sent um I had a memory I don't go to
Facebook ever, I just checkmemory sometimes, and I had a
memory of me finishing the fifthbook, and it was like 2012, and
I go, I'm so bum I have to waita couple years, and that was 13
years ago, almost 14 years ago.

(25:17):
Anyway, anyway, anyway.

SPEAKER_01 (25:21):
Anyway, okay, so let's just get into the episode
what's if Game of Thrones seasonthree.
I'm gonna hand the mic to Shanfirst to kick it off with our
first question, our first what'sif.
Shan, please reveal your firstwhat's if scenario of uh season
three of Game of Thrones.

SPEAKER_00 (25:36):
Okay, so this is sort of not a big one, it's um
not red wedding related, and asI feel like a lot of our
questions are, but um there's ascene when Catelyn Stark is
talking to Talissa about a dyingbaby Jon Snow.
He liked like he had gotten somesort of flu or smallpox or
something equivalent, and he wasdying in his deathbed.

(25:57):
And Catelyn had prayed to thegods um about sparing his life
and how he would how Catelynwould change her ways, she would
accept him, she would love him,and she would ask Ned to
legitimize him.
Um, and then at the end of herwhole story, she said that she

(26:17):
couldn't keep her promise.
So my question to you is what ifCatelyn Stark had kept her
promise about Jon Stowe when sheprayed he would live as a baby?

SPEAKER_01 (26:27):
Like off the top of my head, thinking about it very
quickly, I think that thiscreates kind of like a bigger
butterfly effect than one wouldassume initially, because you
would think, okay, then justJohn would be, I guess, a little
less gloomy, a little lessserious, maybe.
Um, and maybe he'd have a betterrelationship dynamic with his
siblings.
That's kind of like the firstimage that I got when I imagined

(26:47):
the scenario.
But in the long run, if that wasthe case, then John probably
wouldn't have felt the way thathe did growing up.
Um, and not having thosefeelings probably would have led
him to not joining the night'swatch.
So he probably would have beenwith Rob during going south.
Um, and honestly, if everythingelse kind of remained the same,

(27:08):
I could honestly see him maybeeven uh one scenario would be
him dying at the at the redwedding with Rob, but at the
same time I could see Rob usingJohn if they were together as
like an envoy to like um to sendhim to to deal with with people
as Ned Stark's son, and thatwould have had more weight than
Theon would have been moretrusted.

(27:29):
So that then opens up anotherkind of worms where uh you know
Winterfell probably wouldn'thave been taken.
How would the Boltons have comeinto play with that?
I maybe Rob could have won.
I I don't know, I feel like it'sit's could snowball into
something bigger and bigger andbigger, but um that's kind of
where I envisioned season three.
John would be with season three,Rob or would be serving him.

(27:50):
And I think that John wouldstill be like in support of Rob.
I don't think he would have thatum complex or that issue in his
head where he's like, I need tobe the heir, you know, like that
there's none of that drama.
He would have just supported Robthrough and through and would
have been supporting him in theWar of the Five Kings that's
currently happening.
That's um and and as as a resultof that, sorry, like as a result

(28:11):
of that, the Knights Watch thenprobably would have been going
through their own different typeof drama, they would have been
weaker.

SPEAKER_03 (28:17):
I think maybe Rob would have had John stay back in
Winterfoe and be Lord ofWinterfoe while he was gone.
That could have been an optionas well.
Uh he hef but knowing John andthey would have, even though
they weren't quote unquote realbrothers, they still had a bond.
And I think he probably wouldhave wanted to go with Rob, and

(28:38):
I think he would have been hismost trusted advisor.
Uh, he probably would have hadhim commanding some kind of
troop somewhere, and maybe theywouldn't be together at the red
wedding.
Uh, and then that makes John theheir, then he's the heir to
Winterfell.
Uh, when it comes to Catelyn, Ilove Catelyn's character, but

(28:58):
the one negative towards her isher treatment of John in that
first couple episodes.
We just see her like, why doesshe hate this kid so much?
Like the anger is like if shecould kill him.
That one scene is one of myfavorite scenes of Michelle
Fairley when she's doing thatstory.
And I think in in in reality, Idon't think she could have in

(29:21):
that world, you don't say, Oh,let's just it I think it's an
embarrassment to have your lordhusband bring a baby from
another woman, and then you say,Okay, let's just make it my my I
don't think that works in thatworld, you know what I mean?
I mean that's the right thing todo because this is an innocent
baby, it's not their fault.
If I was writing the story and Ihad John be the legit stark, I

(29:47):
probably would have had him in adifferent area, not in the red
wedding.
Um that's what I can think of onthe top of my head.
So what are what were youthinking for your question,
Shen?

SPEAKER_00 (29:57):
Well, yeah, I the main thing is that Rob would
trust him enough to be anadvisor.
So maybe the red weddingwouldn't have happened at all.
Maybe instead of falling in lovewith Talisa, he would have some
sort of like, I don't know,maybe you know, love blinds, I
guess, still no matter what, butlike maybe John would have been
there to be like, hey, don't dothis.

(30:19):
And then maybe the red weddingwouldn't have happened.
Um, I think being at Winterfellis a good thought as well.
Um, because I don't think Rob, Ithink Rob would still want to
fight the war as the heir, andyeah, leaving Jon Snow there at
Winterfell to protect.

SPEAKER_01 (30:37):
Okay, I'll jump in next with our second what's if
scenario.
We just mentioned um Theon andthe my question is what if Theon
escaped Ramsay's capture?

SPEAKER_00 (30:48):
Okay, so firstly, re-watching all of this stuff
with Ramsay really made meupset.

SPEAKER_04 (30:54):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (30:54):
Um, it is so I I and I was watching, I watch I don't
watch all of the behind thescenes when it comes to DB and
David Benedhoff, but like Iwatched the behind the scenes of
this whole thing where Ramsay'stricking Theon the whole time.
Like, here, I'm gonna like youcan escape and go, and your

(31:15):
sister's gonna meet you here,and then he kills the people,
and then he takes them back, andthen he it's just really
frustrating, especially whenTheon um is there and they're
like trying to open the gate,and uh Theon is really opening
up his heart to this random guy,and Ramsay's just like it's
okay.
And he has this face, and onlyus, only the audience members

(31:37):
can see Ramsey's face, and itactually looks compassionate.
Theon cannot see it, so it isjust for us to be tricked, and
it just it's so frustrating.
Okay, so sorry, I had to saythat.
Um, yeah, I I don't know.
I guess for Theon, the North'spolitics would shift like
immediately.
And this whole storylineactually really confuses me.

(31:57):
I had to look it up after I wasdone with the show, with with
the season, um, because I don'treally know Ramsey's motives.
Of course, he's just apsychopath, but like I don't
know why I don't know who's onwhose orders it is to be
torturing Theon.
Like, is it Rob's?
Is it Roos's?
Is it just Ramsay being crazy?

(32:18):
Can someone elaborate?

SPEAKER_03 (32:19):
I don't think Rob is going to tell anybody to torture
anyone.
Um, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (32:24):
Or like, you know, keeping him prisoner, but this
is this is the Bolton's way ofkeeping prisoners.

SPEAKER_03 (32:30):
Bolton is um a madman, it could be him, and
also you have Ramsay who's youknow, next to Joffrey is he
makes sometimes he makes Joffreylook like a you know a kitten.
And I think the biggest thing ifhe were to escape, where does he
go?
He can't go north because nowhe's a traitor to the Starks, he

(32:52):
would be probably hunted there.
Will he go back?
How does he even get to theiron?
Like, that's a tough one.
That's like does he's he'sbasically worthless.
He he's not gonna be um he's notgonna be welcomed back to his
dad.
No, like his dad is not welcome,he thinks of him less of a man,
he doesn't even think of him asa man anymore, so he's not gonna

(33:12):
welcome him back to open arms.
Maybe um Yara will have somecompassion and do something.
Is that that's how he escapes?
Is Yara completing the rescue?
Because they she does try torescue him, right?
And was it was no season four,right?

SPEAKER_00 (33:31):
This is the he has his member in the box and his
dad doesn't want to go, but Yaraliterally is she's got she has
ships, she's on her way.

SPEAKER_03 (33:41):
Okay, she's but she hasn't gone, so that's season
four.
I'm just trying to like did thathappen, and I just I already
forgot.

SPEAKER_00 (33:48):
I think an interesting path would be if if
Theon just if he really thinksthat no one cares about him
after being like if he actuallywas tortured already by Ramsey
and then escaped.
I think that he a goodredemption story on his own
would be to try to find BrandonRick and sort of, I don't know,
fix that.

SPEAKER_03 (34:09):
Yeah, I think that's yeah, that'd probably be the
best the best uh option.
I mean, he does have his arcmoment in season eight, but uh
probably one of the bettermoments of the season eight
catastrophe was Theon umreturning to Winterfell.
Uh but yeah, that's that's agood one, and I think um it's

(34:31):
it's one of those um questions,one of the storylines that we
covered on the podcast.
You you deal with it.
I don't want to talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 (34:44):
Yeah.
Yeah, I didn't want to talkabout Theon at all.
So I understand when you saidthat like you I was surprised
that you had a Theon question.
Yeah, I I just I don't know.
I it it felt like maybe it stoodout to me because like I um I've
been avoiding him, you know,it's like I've been avoiding
that, and when you avoid it'sbecause it left an impact and it

(35:07):
just I don't know, it disturbedme.
So I actually I was gonnainclude a Danny question, but I
knew that I would be so busy andI wouldn't be able to do her
justice that I felt like Icouldn't, I can't I need to do
the proper research and I can'tuh I can't um do her justice um
without the proper researchbecause I was just so busy.
Um but yeah about Theon for me II like Shan's uh uh Shan's

(35:29):
suggestion when what she said.
Um for me, I just thought thatTheon, um, if he escaped, he'd
obviously not be uh acceptedanywhere, right?
Like he wouldn't be acceptedwith I think the Starks.
I kind of forgot about Brian,sorry, so I just thought that
you know he he would be a bitlost, not with his uh family
either.
So um I kind of thought of twoscenarios.

(35:50):
One is uh I guess good, and theother one is a bit uh more grim.
So the grim one, or I guess thedarker one would be that uh
Theon kind of gets captured byuh I don't know, I don't it's
not so uh I don't think it's thebest idea, but they he gets
captured by people from King'sLanding and they kind of use him

(36:11):
and he kind of I don't want tosay he breaks out of the whole
Reek thing because I don't knowif that's possible, but they uh
use him as some sort of spy andhe kind of becomes a like a
double agent or something, likesomething along those lines.
Like it's it's a bit more likehe he turns evil.
I I I I just thought that someway somehow I could see it.

(36:32):
I just can't see the exactsteps, like I could see
something like that happening.
But the other one is I guess themore peaceful one where he just
uh like I could see him justbeing in the north, um happy to
be alive and uh fed up withWesteros, and he just gets on
the next trip to Esos and maybebumps into Arya, maybe not.

(36:54):
But I think that he just choosesto leave everything and and
everyone behind after that getsso traumatized and just decides
to live a very simple life aslike a and the orange farms of
Esos, where where Kristen Colewanted to take anyone.

SPEAKER_03 (37:07):
Uh he can also maybe.
I mean, if he was if he had adeath wish, go back to John uh
Rahm and be like, Look, Iactually didn't kill your
brothers, they're alive forreal.
They're out there.

SPEAKER_01 (37:18):
Yeah, I know he he would be killed immediately.

SPEAKER_03 (37:21):
So but um okay, so here's my um first question.

SPEAKER_00 (37:24):
Okay, can I just say one one more thing about the
season eight, Theon?
Yeah, um what I didn't eventhink about this is that because
doesn't he sacrifice himself tosave Bran against the Night
King?

SPEAKER_02 (37:37):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (37:38):
So I feel like if he was with Bran and he just cut
out everything else that washappening to Theon the whole
time and just immediately becamefriends and put the protector of
Bran and Rikon, I think thatwould just be that would just be
it would just connect thatbetter if they're if we're gonna
choose that ending for Theon,which we shouldn't.

SPEAKER_03 (37:55):
That's the best, I think he and he could have died
instead of Horror in thatepisode.
But anyway.

SPEAKER_00 (38:01):
Oh yeah.
Okay, sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 (38:04):
No, you're good, you're good.
Uh mine is what if Jamie arrivedat King's Landing with Brienne
with his sword hand intact?
How does that does he go throughhis transformation or evolve
into a decent human, or does howdoes that change his character
or his arc in the show if hishand is not chopped off?

SPEAKER_00 (38:24):
So he still saves Brienne from the grizzly bear.

SPEAKER_03 (38:27):
Yeah, they they arrive to King's Landing, they
some they arrived at King'sLanding together.
Okay, let me rephrase it.
Let's say they never getcaptured by Locke and they go
straight to King's Landing,nothing happens to them.
It's a smooth, smooth uh uhtrip.
He doesn't get the moment in thespa, we always call spa.
And he's well let me ask you,and then I'll I'll give you my

(38:51):
thing.

SPEAKER_00 (38:52):
I mean, he's obviously not going to have the
greatest character arc of theshow, then if that's the case.

SPEAKER_01 (38:58):
I I don't know if the placement kind of changed
his stuff because would he havecared as much about Brienne than
if his hand didn't get choppedoff, you know what I mean?
Like he did, but at the sametime, would he have been like I
think something maybe could havehappened before he would have
maybe gotten rid of Brienne, butbecause I see if it I see it
going that if Jamie still hadhis hand, then he wouldn't have

(39:20):
really gone through a majorcharacter transformation, as
Shan said.

SPEAKER_03 (39:22):
So it's probably better if he does get captured,
but they don't chop his handoff.
So everything is the same, justhe has his hand.
So he still gets the guilt, hestill gets the does he go back
and does he become instantly auh Lannister Loyalist and forget
about that?

(39:43):
Does he break his oath withBrienne?
I still think he still keeps hisoath with uh he lets her go.
Um, but anyway, go sorry.
I'm changing my question here.
I'm just like I don't think itmakes sense that they just go
straight because if they gostraight through.
With nothing happening to him,he's still gonna be that same
Jamie that was with her when thebeginning of their trip.

(40:07):
Like he just kept making fun ofher, doesn't respect her, and by
the end, he's like that's hisfriend there.
So I think they need he needsthe trauma, he needs that he
does to he needs to be broken.

SPEAKER_00 (40:20):
Something something needs to happen.

SPEAKER_03 (40:23):
And I think the losing the losing of the hand is
is what tips the iceberg to forhim because he's not a he
doesn't consider himself a mananymore.
Like this is yeah, I'm I'mconsidered the greatest
swordsman, and now my one poweris gone.

SPEAKER_01 (40:39):
And just to add to that, I think that if he made it
back to King's Landingcompletely safe without any
trauma or without any and withboth of his hands uh completely
fine and intact, then it wouldobviously be a very happy um
occasion because you know hishis capture was a big issue for
a while, and they would havebeen like, oh, like the the

(41:01):
great knight returns would havebeen such a big celebration, and
uh then I think maybe Jamie uhwould have just like stayed in
with his ways, you know.
Like I don't think my questionfor you then is how would you
see his relationship changingwith Cersei?
Would would they just be back tonormal or well?

SPEAKER_03 (41:18):
I think the biggest thing I would see is if he goes
back intact, Tywin is the onethat's gonna use him because
remember, Tywin wants him to beLord of Castaway Rock.
He he would probably have usedthem to marry somebody, and then
I'm thinking about the trial ofcombat for if everything happens

(41:39):
with with um Tyrion, he'sobviously gonna pick Jamie.
But would Jamie say yes?
Like, you know, I think Jamiewould have said yes if he went
through all that stuff and hadhis hand, but without his hand,
he can't fight the mountain.

SPEAKER_00 (41:53):
So it's just so many little things, and maybe Tyrion
won't have a trial at allbecause Jamie's there to back
him up.
Yeah, true.
Like they can pin it on someoneelse, you know, like it doesn't
have to be a Lannister.

SPEAKER_03 (42:06):
Well, Cersei was gonna blame Tyrion no matter
what, and I think uh which ifyou think about why didn't Jamie
step in while he was in prison,like you know he didn't do it,
like yeah, but that's all alittle foggy for me.

SPEAKER_00 (42:19):
I haven't seen season four in so long.

SPEAKER_03 (42:20):
Yeah, me too.
I'm I'm dying to see it becauseI look at the IMDB and
everything is like nine pointwhatever and higher.

SPEAKER_00 (42:27):
Like, oh it's like the best, apparently.
I had to look it up the otherday.

SPEAKER_03 (42:31):
It sucks because um, well, obviously, he doesn't go
like in the in the book rightnow, he's he's in the Riverlands
fighting, he's not with Cerseiat all.
Um, there they don't have arelationship, not like they do
in the show.
I think Cersei's rule wouldbecome even stronger because
then Jamie's not gonna opposeher.
He opposes her now because he'sgone through all you know, he's

(42:53):
seen the the light, so to speak.

SPEAKER_00 (42:56):
Sorry, how is the relationship with Tywin when
Jamie gets back in the show?
Like, does anyone remember?

SPEAKER_03 (43:00):
Because well, Tywin's upset because he he
wants him to leave the King'sGuard.
He's like, you can't be aone-arm bodyguard.

SPEAKER_00 (43:10):
Yeah, so so if he came back with his arm, Tywin
probably would still have somerespect for him, and so would
Cersei.
And therefore, I think that whenTyrion is blamed, Jamie always
has Tyrion's back, and I don'tthink I think Cersei wouldn't
allow it.
I don't I just don't think Jamiewouldn't allow Cersei to blame

(43:31):
Tyrion.
Yeah, there has to be someoneelse because he still has
dignity and she still takes himseriously.
So I think maybe he would belike, no, no, no, let's let's
think about this.
It's not Tyrion.

SPEAKER_03 (43:43):
Yeah.
I think everything else wouldhave changed too, because once
he gets back without the hand,he doesn't feel like he can step
in.
Even like Joffrey's making funof him because he has the you
know, he has the one hand, andnow he has other Kingsguards
there.
Like if he goes back intact, hehe could just take over.
Like, all right, everybody, I'mfiring everybody.

(44:04):
This is I need my own crew,yeah.
Um, but like at the end, hedoesn't die.
He I think you just stay aloyalist.
He doesn't even though eventhough in the show they they
screwed him up anyway, he died aLannister loyalist because he
died with his sister.
Yeah, but he didn't die aredeemed night.
Like, my my thing is like hewould have died in Winterfell,

(44:27):
like pre protecting some aStark, maybe Bran or Brian.

SPEAKER_01 (44:32):
It should have been Bran.
Maybe God would have been socool.

SPEAKER_03 (44:36):
Him kill him trying to kill the Night King or him
dying protecting Brianne wouldhave been more of a payoff.
Um, but hey.
What if he lost his other hand?

SPEAKER_00 (44:48):
Oh, his neck non-fighting hand.
I still think people would stillmake fun of him, even though he
can still fight.
Yeah, he would still be acrippled in everyone's eyes, and
I think Tywin would stillrespond, and Joffrey would still
respond that way.

SPEAKER_01 (45:01):
Yeah, but then that might have like uh made Jamie be
like go on a different arc ofbeing angry and wanting to prove
that he's still good.
You know, I think that I don'tsee Jamie being like, well, I
don't need to prove anything toyou.
You know, he I don't see himbeing that like um in touch and
sorry, wise about it.
I think he it could triggersomething in him and he would

(45:23):
like like fight someone with hiswith his good hand and and um
try to prove himself like I'mstill the same.

SPEAKER_00 (45:31):
And then maybe that would have made more sense to
have the ending that he got,like yeah, because he's not like
fully changed, you know.
So Osha and Rickon end upleaving Bran and Hodar, and they
are going to try to go to CastleBlack, I believe, or somewhere
else, but they're not goingbeyond the wall again.
Like Osha's like, no, I'm notdoing this.

(45:52):
I've seen the White Walkers, I'mnot going back.
She's like hard with us.
Yeah, so they split up.
So my question for you is whatif Osha and Rickon had gone with
Bran?

SPEAKER_03 (46:05):
I think it would have been annoying for Mira and
Jojen to have this little kidthere.
It would have been justbickering the whole time, right?
Because they hated each other.
They it was one of the we didn'tget that many scenes, but Mira
and Osha fighting was kind offunny.
You know, they had theirmoments.

(46:27):
Uh obviously it would have beenmuch slower.
It they would have been a umwhat do you call too much of a
weight to carry throughoutbecause then I don't think they
could have focused on the theplan of getting there if you had
because I think well, yeah, he'sa baby in the book.
He's like what three or fouryears old, Rickon, or five,

(46:47):
maybe like that, taller.
I think in the books it wouldwork because then you have more
time to figure out a way todevelop that.
But I don't I don't think theywould have in the show would
have been like, oh, this isboring.
Like, why are they they doingthat?
Or or but anyway, that that's mymy take on it.

SPEAKER_01 (47:05):
As for me, honestly, I I I hate to say it, but I
don't think that Racon is suchan important character.
Like I just think that he Ihonestly I don't know why this
is gonna sound so mean, and Ihalf mean it as a joke and half
not, like at Racon's expense,but I just think he would have
like died of like frostbite orsomething, and then just that's

(47:27):
it.
Like I can't see I can't see anyuh relevant storyline for him in
the show, regardless.
Like, or I mean sorry, in thebooks or both actually, like I
just don't see him okay, he hewas in the battle between John
and Ramsay, but he didn't henever had any significant arc,
and I don't see anythinghappening to him changing much,

(47:50):
uh, or like do like changingmuch for him or others.
Yeah, I just think he's gonnadie.

SPEAKER_03 (47:56):
Yeah, or maybe they go to they say, Hey, you can go,
but we're gonna drop you off atCastle Black, and then we go
beyond the wall or something.
That way they know at leastthey're safe.
The ramifications of hey, thereis a Stark at Castle Black, what
would that have done to therealm like, oh shit, you know,
John's or Rob is dead, but uhNed's youngest son is alive.

(48:17):
That could have had some kind ofyou know impact on the story,
which that was my my nextquestion, anyway.
So uh go ahead, Sharon.
What's your thoughts on it?

SPEAKER_00 (48:28):
Well, my first thought is that at least they
would have two direwolves goingbeyond the wall.
That's my first thought.
Um, but then also, of course,Ramsey wouldn't have had a hold
of them.
Like if Rickon and Osha hadsplit, then Rickon would have
been at least somewhere, notnear Ramsey, and he wouldn't
have had the horrible death thathe had.

(48:49):
Unfair.

SPEAKER_03 (48:51):
Um he had to do was Zig and Zag.

SPEAKER_00 (48:54):
Yeah, but that's true.
But I think Ramsey's crazy brainwould have gotten him again
anyway.
Um, but then what if what ifRickon learned how to warg too?

SPEAKER_03 (49:04):
You know, that's why that's what I'm saying.
It will work in the sh in thebook.

SPEAKER_00 (49:08):
Yeah, yeah.
So like all of them can, right?
So like what if they actuallyutilized that and made his
storyline a little bit moreinteresting?
I mean, they're not even givinghim the benefit of the doubt,
they're just like making him aweak character on purpose, yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah.
And what if uh Jojen helped himgreensee or you know, as well,

(49:29):
you know, like trained bothStarks at the same time.
Um, and then also if LadyStoneheart's still alive, I
mean, if she becomes a thing andRickon can warg, maybe he just
really wants to find his mom,and then he finds his mom, and
then Lady Stoneheart and Rickonget together, and he's safe, and
he and you know, she has herbaby again.

SPEAKER_03 (49:52):
Yeah, but I don't think the show had any patience
with this storyline of let'stake her time, we could use this
incredible source of magic, andlet's that would have been
awesome to see just dials, andagain, they probably didn't want
to do the dials and the CGI andthe blah blah blah, and it gets

(50:12):
me upset anyway.

SPEAKER_00 (50:15):
So in the books, um, I'm guessing Rickon is still
alive because they haven't evengotten to John's whole
redemption yet, right?
In the books?

SPEAKER_03 (50:26):
John?

SPEAKER_00 (50:27):
So yeah, so like John is still dead in the books,
right?

SPEAKER_03 (50:30):
Well, we don't know.
Oh yeah, like it's it's it's oneof those like was that the
cliffhanger and and thenGeorge's.
Well, that's no, yeah, that'sthe cliffhanger.
It's kind of like you'rethinking he's dead, and then he
never they never speak of itagain.
And then there's the last uhchapter is not it's not about

(50:50):
that.

SPEAKER_00 (50:51):
Um and that's that's where George left off, right?
Like this is where it stops.

SPEAKER_03 (50:56):
Okay, it's in it's in limbo.

SPEAKER_00 (50:58):
So Rickon is still alive, too.

unknown (51:01):
I can't.

SPEAKER_03 (51:01):
Don't tell me I'm I'm pretty sure.
I mean, I don't remember though.
Like I said, I haven't read thefifth book in close to 10 years
now.
So I'm trying to get there.
Yeah, I had one about what ifJohn, what if Bran had gone to
Castle Black instead of being onthe wall, which is kind of like,
well, a lot of storylines don'thappen.

(51:23):
You know, no visions, notransformation, no early
knowledge of the Knights King'smovements, which doesn't make
didn't make a really bigdifference that he knew where
the Night King was.
No, no warging into Horlord inthe Cave.
No, I mean it's just like thethe magic is kind of is
dissipated even more if he goesto Castle Black.

(51:45):
Again, the only thing that becuh is changes if Bran goes to
Castle Black is that now he's apolitical character, not a
mystical one.
And they're thinking about nowwe have the heir to Winterfells.
And you know, the same thing ifRickon went to to Castle Black.
And I just answered my question,but anyway, what what if he gone

(52:05):
to the wall?

SPEAKER_00 (52:06):
I feel like a uh Maister Amon would have some
insight too if Bran had gonethere.
Maybe Master Eamon would MaesterEamon would just tell him,
actually, you have a duty.
Yeah, go beyond the wall.

SPEAKER_01 (52:21):
And oh true, true.
And sorry, you're talking aboutseason three, like John is still
with the wildlings at thispoint, right?
Yeah, just to clarify, okay.
Uh sorry, Shane, did Iinterrupt?
Or was that no no okay?
I think Tony, you kind of gavethe the answer, which is that he
kind of would have beenpolitical, you know.
Uh because at that point, he'snot just like a mystical person,

(52:43):
a mystical character that'sgonna develop his powers and
such.
He's going to be used becausethen you know the the the watch
Mr.
Eamon could send um Bran and andlike get him back on his quest
or where he should be.
But um the Night's Watch couldalso feel like they have a duty
then to send like someone to Roband tell them Bran is here, and

(53:05):
then Bran would find out thatRob uh that Bran, sorry, Rob
would find out that Bran isalive, and then that would have
set off a different butterflyeffect, maybe they would have
sent someone to go, or you know,Catelyn might have left to go
see him, uh you know, becauseshe wasn't on good terms with
Rob anyways at that point,right?
So um she probably would haveleft Rob if that was like all at

(53:26):
the right time and went to thenight's watch to meet Bran, and
Bran would have been back andwent to that's very true.

SPEAKER_03 (53:32):
Good point.
I didn't even think aboutCatelyn.
Yeah, she would have definitelyleft and gone straight to the
wall if she heard her two boyswere alive.

SPEAKER_01 (53:40):
It was that was the political angle, kind of, I
think.
Okay.
My second question is what ifJohn stayed with the wildlings?

SPEAKER_03 (53:48):
I don't that's hard.
What do you think, Shan?
It is he's too loyal, like Idon't know, deep down.

SPEAKER_01 (53:54):
But I mean, I'm leaving it a bit vague.
So, like what if he stayed butstill felt loyal?
You could still, you know, belike you could still add his his
uh mental state into it, youknow, his issues into it.

SPEAKER_03 (54:06):
Here's what I thought of he stays if she's
pregnant.

SPEAKER_01 (54:14):
Yes, that's true.

SPEAKER_03 (54:16):
If she's pregnant with his child, he's not
leaving.
He's he could reconcile, youknow what?
I have to be now faithful to herand my uh unborn child.
That's the only way I see himstaying with the wildlings.

SPEAKER_00 (54:30):
So when he leaves though, it's because he can't
kill the old farmer.
Yes.
So is he still willing to killpeople?
Because that's why he ended uprunning.

SPEAKER_03 (54:40):
Or he has to figure out a way to convince her to
leave as well.
I mean, that's he's gonna be inthat conundrum of okay, what do
I do?
I don't want to leave.
If I leave, then I'm leaving mychild.
I can't stay because I don'twant to kill innocent people.
Um Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (54:56):
And that was one of my other questions, too, is what
if Igret went with him?

SPEAKER_03 (55:01):
That would have been tough because he he he wouldn't
be able to go back to the wall.
Because he can't have a wife ora woman.
He would have had say, you knowwhat, I'm just gonna break my
oath and go straight to John orRob or somebody's that I know.

SPEAKER_01 (55:15):
And yeah, even so, uh, I mean, if he did go back to
Westeros, then I mean to likethe wall, uh, you know, not to
Westeros beyond the wall, youknow, like down and south of the
wall.
Um they wouldn't really accepthim either.
Like she shows up with thewilding woman if he does, and
he's a deserter.
And I think that then would haveopened up another what if, which

(55:38):
is if he goes to Rob, would Robexecute him?
Because Rob, you know, wastaught from the very first
episode you execute deserters,and that's what his dad taught
him.
So then would he have executeduh John?

SPEAKER_03 (55:48):
I don't think so.
I think we talked about that,right?

SPEAKER_01 (55:50):
Did we?
I think we did, but I'm not I'mnot sure.

SPEAKER_03 (55:52):
I don't think Rob would do that, or maybe Rob was
like, you know what, just gowell, act like you're never
here.

SPEAKER_01 (55:58):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Go to SOs and Yeah, Rob, it'snot like Rob wouldn't break an
oath, because he did.
Yeah, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 (56:07):
Yeah, I mean, and so did John.

SPEAKER_01 (56:10):
So did John.

SPEAKER_00 (56:11):
He didn't learn anything from Ned, just kidding.

SPEAKER_03 (56:15):
You see, the thing we're talking about, if John was
his advisor and he had sleptwith Telissa, John would have
been awesome.
You have to marry her becausethat is your duty.
Not been like, you know what,just you know, that's fine.
Don't don't worry about it.

SPEAKER_00 (56:31):
I really don't have an answer.
It's I don't I think this ishonestly probably the best
storyline direction for John, iswhat they did in the show.

SPEAKER_02 (56:41):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (56:41):
Like I can nitpick everything else about the show,
but this is I think one thingthat I think that they did okay.

SPEAKER_03 (56:52):
It feels a lot, it feels short.
I mean, they came up.
I mean, she was started the showlike mid-season two, and it
feels like she wasn't in theshow that much, and she ended up
I mean, she doesn't die till thepenultimate of season four.
But she's in the show for twofull seasons, but doesn't feel
that way.

SPEAKER_00 (57:10):
I feel like she teaches him a lot, so it's hard,
but I think that John did theright thing by leaving because
he can't kill Innocence yet, andEgret can't go to Castle Black.
She won't belong, even if shewas accepted, she wouldn't be
able to be do it.

SPEAKER_03 (57:27):
No, she's too of a sh independent, strong.
She wouldn't take crap for anyof those guys, she would just
probably kill like them all.
And if they gave her any lip,then she'll be like smacking
them and killing them like Ican't be here.
All right, so for the thirdquestion, we're going to kind of
combine all our questionstogether because it sort of
focuses on the red wedding, andthe red wedding is the biggest

(57:50):
what if question of all.
It's like, what if John never orJohn Rob doesn't die?
What if he doesn't go to thetwins?
What if he doesn't have thatridiculous plan of going to
Castle Rock, which we make funof?
Like, what if he just doesn't hesticks to the original plan?
So why don't we start with yourfirst red wedding-esque

(58:13):
question, Shan?

SPEAKER_00 (58:15):
Okay, so for book readers, we know that Talissa
and Jane Easterling areseparate.
I mean, they're the same, butseparate.
Yeah.
Right.
Different storylines, differentbackgrounds, and etc.
But in the book, Jane Easterlingdoesn't go to the red wedding.

SPEAKER_02 (58:34):
No.

SPEAKER_00 (58:35):
So what if Talissa had skipped the Red Wedding?

SPEAKER_03 (58:40):
You know, I wanted to just jump in and I'll have
Minlois respond.
We forgot to mention that theWesterlings were a vassal to the
Lannisters.
You know, there's that theorythat West Jane Westerling kind
of had maybe she had some inputon the Red Wedding, and that's
why that she didn't go.
Anyway, I forgot to mention thatthey were sorry, I keep saying
Easterling.

(59:01):
Westerling.

SPEAKER_00 (59:02):
Westerling, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 (59:04):
Um like relocated her to the east.

SPEAKER_03 (59:07):
Um yeah, that theory about her her family being in
cahoots with the Lannisters, andthat's why she wasn't there, and
maybe she got a warning not togo.
That wasn't the the question,but I just want to uh no, you're
good.
We we forgot to mention aboutthe Westerling House when we did
the Ross.

SPEAKER_01 (59:25):
I feel like I feel like we mentioned that that in
our episode.

SPEAKER_03 (59:28):
No, I remember we didn't No?

SPEAKER_01 (59:30):
No, no Oh okay if she skipped the Red Wedding and
they killed Rob all the same andeverything just like the Red
Wedding went down as it was,then I could honestly I could
just see her death.
I I I haven't read um I haven'tread the the fifth book yet, so
I'm not sure, but I I don't I'mnot sure how it goes in the
books, but I could see themseeking her out and killing her

(59:54):
regardless, because I don't seeher becoming uh like a major
character.
Yeah, like Rispett.
And no one everybody was madthat he got married to her.
So they don't like her.
They wanted her gone.
They didn't like her.
They they have no reason to kindof keep her around or or as you
said, like respect her.
So I think that the Lannisterswould have sought her out and
killed her uh regardless,especially because she was

(01:00:16):
pregnant.
Um and I don't think that theanyone from the North would have
cared about it, honestly.
I just see her death stillhappening.
So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:25):
So I had a similar question.
Yours was of what if she wasn'tthere?
Mine is she wasn't there and shegave birth to Rob's kid.
What would have happened to theNorth if his son or daughter
would have been born and thatcould have and again, I don't
know if she would have beenrespected.
I think in the book, JaneWesterling, if she were

(01:00:46):
pregnant, she would have hadmore respect because she comes
from an honorable house.
They would have treated her alittle differently.
I don't see them treatingTalissa as a legitimate queen of
the north.
And then if Rob's child is born,you know, he's the heir, but
then you would have to get aregent who's gonna be the regent

(01:01:10):
if Catelyn's dead, like whowould you pick?
And then it would just open upthis can of warms of okay, we
have Tywins be like, okay, we'regonna have to figure out a way
to kill this kid because if thenorth sees as a legitimate heir
to the you know to Winterfell,that's gonna cause any problems.
And uh that in the Bolton'sclaim on the north it becomes

(01:01:31):
weaker if the kid is born.
But I agree with Aminwal, Idon't think they would have
taken even when Rob was aliveand he was with her, you can see
they're like like giving her theside eye, like you don't belong
here, like you're a foreigner,and it doesn't now that he's
dead and the whole north is inshambles, we're not gonna listen
to you.

(01:01:51):
She would have just gone back toher to Valantis.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:54):
Where she came from.
Yeah, but that's what I'msaying.
I I that's my thought process isI feel like she would just go
back to Valantis, and then shewould have given birth to an
heir, and it would be justDaenerys all over again.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:08):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:09):
Like born in you know, Easteros, and then you
just have to find the the kidwill just want to have it find
its way back to Winterfell.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:20):
But he wouldn't have any dragons though.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:22):
He wouldn't have any dragons.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:24):
And I have one last question for my what-if
scenarios.
What if Arya had made us in timefor the red wedding?

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:30):
So made it in time, meaning like she got to the
wedding and she she meets upwith Gatlin and Rob and she's a
part of the wedding, like she'sa part of the everything.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:39):
I mean, like she made us in time for the before
the red wedding was single.
So like she you could even sayshe wouldn't be there, like they
would have kept her aside, orshe would they would bring her
to the wedding.
Like she was just they met herbefore the red wedding happened.
You know, or you could say likeshe I don't know, I what
whatever you come up with, likeshe walks in on them at the red

(01:03:02):
wedding.
I can I'm I'm curious to seewhat were your first impressions
from after hearing that.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:08):
My only thing is yeah, I mean it would be nice if
they actually got to see eachother.
Um maybe they wouldn't have beenat the party for very long if
Arya was there.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:18):
She would have been bored.
Let's go.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:21):
Well, like I think Catelyn would be so ecstatic
that she had Arya back thatmaybe Catelyn wouldn't be in the
same room.
Maybe Rob and Talissa would havebeen, but maybe Catelyn wouldn't
have been in the room.
Like she would just be hangingout with Arya, you know?
And then maybe Catelyn wouldn'tdie that way, but then at the
end, you know, everyone diespretty much in Rob's army

(01:03:41):
anyway.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:42):
So Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:44):
If the hound still was there, maybe he could get
them.
He's very, I think, umobservant.
And I feel like he would clockonto some things fast, and he
would be like, Catelyn, Arya,let's get out of here.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:59):
I don't think he's he would be in the room though.
I don't know if they let him inthere.
Like I like I don't see likewhat I what I'm thinking is like
do the phrase are smart enoughto go, hey, um take the child
and put her to the side.
We don't want to kill her.
We'll use her as some kind ofpolitical, you know what I mean?

(01:04:20):
Like the they could keep Arya,give her that's another like a
prize to Tywin or something, orthey they're just so dumb and
they just kill everybody.
Like that's my first thought isdo they do they are smart enough
not to kill her, or they just goF it, we're just gonna kill
everybody.
Maybe season seven Arya wouldhave been cool to come in here.

(01:04:42):
But like season three, Arya isstill a kid, she has no
training.
So I mean, I don't maybe she hasthat foresight of maybe
something's wrong, but I thinkshe would have just ended up
dead because those idiots arejust dumb and and you know
they're just they do whatthey're told, and and then
that's pretty much it.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:00):
If the hound was with Arya though, somehow, like
you know, if they weren't lateand the feast was still going on
because you know the hound wastoo busy eating all the pig to
get there on time anyway.
Um, I feel like the hound.
This is best case scenario.
If the hound and aria got inthere and they both clocked on

(01:05:22):
at what was happening fastenough.

SPEAKER_03 (01:05:25):
I mean, he probably could have taken out a a a bunch
of guys, but those guys with thewith the bow and arrows on the
top would have taken him out.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:34):
I I don't yeah, yeah, it's I just wish that he
could get in there, get Catelyn,get Arya out.
They could have said hi, bye,and then just she can't save
Rob.
Like they just can't save Roband Talissa.

SPEAKER_03 (01:05:46):
Yeah, the one thing I'm thinking about is how does
he get past the guards?
Because he's he wouldn't bewelcome by the Slarks, or maybe
he's welcome by the phrase, whoknows?

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:56):
Um, but without he had a cloak, so he could just
been like, I'm the pork guy, I'mthe pork guy, let me in.

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:03):
But like without uh Arya, like his then his arc,
like let's say he just drops heroff.
Then we don't see the houndagain because what what's the
point of the hound's character?
His his arc completely is done.
Like he doesn't fight Brianne,he doesn't do anything, he
doesn't come back, and and sothat that's one thing I could
see.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:22):
I I see both of your points.
I think that with Arya, it Iknow that I kind of framed it in
a strict way and was like, justinterpret it however you want,
but I do think that the timingmatters because um they could
have uh hidden her away, but atthe same time, like in and she
just wouldn't have been a partof it, but then she would have
been a very easy target for themto kill if she would uh already

(01:06:43):
been there.
My explanation is just that ifthey h hid her and she arrived
before the red wedding actuallystarted, then they would have
just killed her because she wasright there.
It's an easy kill and easytarget.
But if she stormed in on the RedWedding, which is not too out of
character for her either, um,then I don't think much would

(01:07:04):
have changed.
She would have made it outsemi-alive, or the wedding would
have semi-alive, just like youknow, like alive or traumatized.
Um or the Red Wedding uhprobably would have been on
pause.
Like though they had it allplanned out, there would have
been a a ruckus, you know, likethey would have been like, Arya,
what are you doing here?
And they can't go on with aNorman wedding and they even the

(01:07:27):
Lannisters themselves would havebeen, I think, a bit too
distracted to not not theLannisters, but the Lannister
team, to suddenly just close allthe doors.
I think they would the one thingI think about is something could
have happened.
Yeah, I said something couldhave happened.

SPEAKER_03 (01:07:39):
You had a question about Grey Wind that you want to
ask, right?
And this is kind of the redwedding thing.
Like, I wish in the show theywould have like maybe Arya and
the Ham be like, we gotta getout of here, like something's
happening, and she would havehad the foresight to free
Greywind and then take him.
That would have been a cooldynamic of having but again,

(01:08:01):
does Grey Wind go?
Or does he like does he senseRob's in trouble and he goes,
you know, trying to get Rob?
That could have that couldhappen too.
But like I would have wish theywould have had at least a
moment, her freeing him andseeing where that goes.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:16):
So the the Starks can warg in the books.
Can they warg into each other'sdirewolves or just their own?

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:23):
Yeah, so here's here's the creepy sad part is
that they're saying in theorythat Rob is killed in the hall,
but right before he's fatallywounded, he wars into Grey Wind,
and then he gets killed, so hegets killed twice.

SPEAKER_04 (01:08:43):
That's so sad.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:45):
Yes.
So he does war like peoplesaying that he did war into and
then he just gets killed.
And I don't know how that works.
Like if they she may I mean Iguess they would have been smart
enough to bomb with anotherperson, if or they would have
just gone into the wild.
I I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:02):
Yeah, because I mean Namiria's out there too, even
though Aria's not with her.
So I mean, I think it'spossible.
Um, I I wanted to kind of add tothis.
I just thought about it whileMenwa was talking.
Um, what if Aria and theBrotherhood Without Banners all
went to the red weddingtogether?

(01:09:22):
And I'm I'm I'm assuming thatthis is something that happens
because of Lady Stoneheart,because someone has to bring her
back.
Like there must they must beclose.
Someone has to be the Lord ofthe Light kind of servant, you
know.

SPEAKER_03 (01:09:36):
Well, I mean, do you want to know?

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:38):
Sure.
I mean, I already have Lady LadyStoneheart disposed for me.
Like, I already know, kind ofknow, you know.

SPEAKER_03 (01:09:43):
Well, they they find her in in the river.
Like they throw like the phraselike cut her throat to the bone,
and they just they they they dida the most disrespectful way of
just throwing her in the river,you know.
And the Tullies, their traditionis you get in the river, like
they put you in that thing, thatViking kind of ceremony.
So they in in a way it's adisrespect her even more.

(01:10:06):
It's like they just dumped herin her body and then and then
the brotherhood find her.
So they don't know about thewedding until then.
Um, what was the question?
I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:15):
I got yeah, that's I don't know.
I I find that hard to believethat they didn't know about the
wedding at all, you know,though.
So like I feel like if Aria hadher little army of brotherhood
without banners, but like howmany how many were they though?

SPEAKER_03 (01:10:28):
Like I don't know, like two dozen.
Yeah.
So I think it's better off thatthey didn't go to the wedding
because their their arc in thebook is much better, and which
is uh let's even let's get tothe questions that that you had
one and I had.
Let's just combine them.
So I think your question is LadyStoneheart, which is the I if

(01:10:49):
you listen to this podcast, I'vesaid Lady Stoneheart like a
million times.
Like, what if?
Oh my gosh, the the thestoryline.
So my your question was what ifLady Stoneheart?

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:01):
Mine's literally like the the question that is
the end of the season, though.
So do you have something that'sbefore that?

SPEAKER_03 (01:11:06):
No, mine is I'm gonna inject the aria being with
the brotherhood without banner.
So aria would have been with thebrotherhood when she found her
mother in the river.
Okay, and how that could be whatthat would have done to her
character.
She doesn't obviously shedoesn't leave Westeros, she
doesn't become a facelessassassin, she stays with her

(01:11:28):
mom-ish, whatever that mom is.
And uh she she doesn't, youknow, her then her skill sket is
gonna be an archer, uh, she'sgonna be a survivalist, she's
gonna be maybe she getsreligion.
I don't know.
A little bit of the light, uh,but she won't become this like
mystical assassin that shebecomes, and she doesn't have to

(01:11:52):
endure the trauma of the redwedding, even though her her her
mom and brother are dead.
But then her and her zombie momwould uh with the brotherhood go
on this revenge tour, the phraseand Lannister's, which would
have been so dope.

SPEAKER_00 (01:12:13):
And for mine, mine was just the um so the end of
the season ends with Daenerys umfreeing all the slaves in uh oh
what city is that?

SPEAKER_03 (01:12:28):
Yunkai, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:12:31):
So she saves the Yunkaian slaves.
Yeah, they they're free.
Um and it's there's it's theMisa episode, they're all saying
mother, mother, mother, and thenthat's how the season ends.
What if instead of that becausewe already get a di a season

(01:12:51):
ending Daenerys in the firstseason, why does it always have
to be Daenerys?
I mean, sorry.
No, no, no, no, no.
Sorry, no worries.
In my head, I'm just like, whatif it would have been Lady
Stoneheart?
Lady Stoneheart in the river,and she comes back to life, and
that's the ending of the if thecreators actually went the
magical way.

SPEAKER_03 (01:13:12):
Which I I honestly, when I was watching it live, I
said, here we go, here we go,baby.
It's Lady Stoneheart, and then Igo, Okay, season four.
Okay, we got it.
Season four, okay, season five.
Here we go, and then after that,I'm like, Okay, they're not
bringing her back, obviously.
Um but that would have madesense.
But do you know why D D didn'twant to do Lady Stoneheart?

(01:13:36):
Do you know why?

SPEAKER_00 (01:13:36):
Probably some stupid reason, but go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 (01:13:39):
Because they didn't want to have resurrection
fatigue because they know theywere gonna re-uh resurrect John.
Well, if we do Lady Stoneheart,then then we're gonna have to do
John.
Like, okay, so what?

SPEAKER_00 (01:13:54):
That's what the Lord of Light does, that's his job.

SPEAKER_03 (01:13:58):
Like, they wanted to preserve, like, oh well, if we
bring her back, then it's thered wedding, it's not gonna have
the same impact.
Well, yeah, it does.
You're not bringing backCatelyn.
This is a completely differentcharacter.
Yeah, this is not Catelyn Star.
This is Lady Stoneheart.
We can't talk, she's justhell-bent on revenge.

(01:14:18):
But that was their point, thatwas their excuse.
Well, there's too muchresurrecting.

SPEAKER_00 (01:14:23):
Oh, so let's rewrite George.
Yeah, let's do that, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 (01:14:28):
Which that that's probably the biggest storyline
that people complain about isthis this point right here,
because yeah, we we instead ofhaving this methodical um
revenge tour of the Frey's andLannister's, we get the one
scene of Arya in season seven inthe cold open, where she poisons
every Frey.

(01:14:48):
And yeah, that was that was LadyStoneheart right there.
Let's make it up.
Let's have this cool opening forthe season and and have the
Freys all die with Arya being afaceless assassin.

SPEAKER_00 (01:15:01):
I love that foreshadowing in that episode
too this season when Bran istelling the story about the rat
cook.

SPEAKER_01 (01:15:08):
Yeah.
Oh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:15:11):
And then it opens with like he says that story,
and then Frey is eating andBruce Bolton is talking to him.
I was like, oh, theforeshadowing was there even
then.
That's okay.
That's that's good.
I wish that they planned it thatmuch in advance.

SPEAKER_03 (01:15:25):
So here's the thing with Lady Stoneheart as well.
Like, when you don't have her,like if they would have included
her in the show, then Brienne'sstoryline becomes a thousand
more it becomes more intensebecause of what happens in the
future and with Jamie, becauseremember, the last thing that

(01:15:45):
Catelyn hears is well, in thebook, she hears Jamie Lannister
sends his regards.
So in her mind it's JamieLannister.
In the in the book, in the show,it says the Lannisters send
their regards, right?
So that's the one little changethey have.
So Lady Stoneheart is just likeJamie Lannister must die.

(01:16:07):
Like, you know what I mean?
So when anyway, I won't say whathappens, but uh and then uh the
phrase wouldn't survive soseason seven, obviously, if
she's alive.
Thank, thank our boys for notgiving us this these great
moments.

SPEAKER_01 (01:16:22):
Just in case our listeners are wondering, uh, why
aren't you talking about a whatif we're oh what if rob doesn't
die?
That's because we alreadycovered that point in a separate
episode dedicated to Rob Stark.
So please check that out.
Um, after this one, if youhaven't seen if you haven't
listened to that already.

SPEAKER_03 (01:16:38):
I I'll say one thing about Arya and the Brotherhood.
That would have been kind ofcool because she would have been
like the symbol or thisrebellious symbol, I think.
Like people would have followedher, you know what I mean?
And what happens if peoplerealize that Arya Stark is in
the riverlands?
Well that's what does thathappen with with does that

(01:17:00):
change Sansa's arc or at all?
Does that change um like peopleknowing Ramsey, like because
then they know that she's alive,she's an heir, like she could be
in Windsorfeld.
Does that change the north?
Um I don't know, like becausewhen it comes to Arya, I I'm I

(01:17:24):
enjoy her and the book more, andand then like season five, I
think season five, right?
Season six, it kind of gets uhto the point where her arc is
tedious.
They're like, okay, like ohwhatever.
Like it her and like Tyrion inin the final seasons, like

(01:17:44):
Tyrion is just there to makejokes and drink, like he has
nothing to he's not adding anyvalue to the story anymore.

SPEAKER_00 (01:17:52):
Yeah, I I'm glad that you said that.
Um in the book so far, I'm notin love with Tyrion or Arya, and
I know that a lot of peopleit'll change, like people say
that theirs are the best, youknow, POVs.
Um, but man, Arya's arc reallymakes me mad the whole time.
I don't really like anythingthat she does in the show.

SPEAKER_03 (01:18:13):
In the show, not okay.

SPEAKER_00 (01:18:15):
In the show, but I haven't even really like loved
her chapters yet, either,though.

SPEAKER_03 (01:18:20):
See, in the show, they make Tyrion very lovable.
Like you want to root for him,and then in the book, he's it's
not a word, but I'm gonna sayrootable.
You're not really rooting forhim, but you but but you like
that he's so witty and sarcasticand smart.
Uh that's why you kind of gowith him.
But he is dark when it comes toa lot in the book.

SPEAKER_00 (01:18:43):
And yeah, when I I almost wish that Arya's arc
would be with the Brotherhood ofwithout banners over the
faceless men.
I I feel like that would havebeen a better storyline.

SPEAKER_03 (01:18:55):
Yeah, I get it because you know we get some
cool moments with Arya in thelater seasons.
But what were we thinking aboutwhen we thought of Arya doing
the faceless, being a facelessassassin?
The first thing we thought,she's gonna kill Cersei.
She's gonna she doesn't shedoesn't do anything like instead
of the phrase, that's prettymuch it.

(01:19:16):
And then she gets uh revenge onMirian, Mirian Trent, and um
when he's in Esos, right?

SPEAKER_00 (01:19:23):
Just her list for the first three seasons, you
know, she's saying her list outloud, and she doesn't kill any
like almost any of them thewhole time.
And granted, that's the Game ofThrones, people are gonna kill
them before you kill them, youknow.
But uh, I don't know.
It's just like why are you whydo you even have a list of these
people if you're not even gonnakill any of them on your list?

SPEAKER_03 (01:19:46):
The guy who was torturing the soldier the the
people in in Heron Hall, didn'tshe order what's this guy's
name?

SPEAKER_00 (01:19:55):
Jochen.

SPEAKER_03 (01:19:56):
Does the doesn't she order Jochen to kill him first?
So that's was he on the list?
I think he was on a list, right?

SPEAKER_00 (01:20:05):
At the very end, yeah.
She added him at the very end.

SPEAKER_03 (01:20:07):
So that's that's one person that she killed from the
list.

SPEAKER_00 (01:20:11):
She doesn't kill Ellen Payne.
Like that would be the one whereI would be like, yeah, kill him.

SPEAKER_03 (01:20:16):
Yeah, what happens to Ellen Payne?
I don't rem remember.
I don't know either.
He does he just doesn't comeback in the shop.

SPEAKER_01 (01:20:24):
I mean, if you want, you could say, like, what if
what if Kat only survivesinstead of just Rob?
But I don't know if that's likeI don't know if that's even
possible.

unknown (01:20:32):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:20:33):
Because they like lock the doors and everything.

SPEAKER_03 (01:20:34):
So like if she were to survive, I think she would be
with her surviving, I think shewould have a better way to
reunite the North.
Because people respect Catelynso much around the north.
She might have been able torally, that's what I was trying
to say, rally people.

SPEAKER_00 (01:20:56):
What if the blackfish died?
What does he have to offer?
Because he went out and went peeand then they never found him
again, right?
So far in the show.

SPEAKER_03 (01:21:05):
Um Yeah, he shows up in season six when he's in River
Run.

SPEAKER_01 (01:21:09):
I was gonna say, I don't get why that wasn't a
thing, why the why they neverkind of expanded on the
blackfish's role and why hewasn't the the the hand.
Like that seems so logical.
It seems like only natural thatthat would happen, and they just
it just didn't happen.
I I just I wonder why thatwasn't a thing.

SPEAKER_03 (01:21:28):
I think that's gonna be all for our what if portion
of the podcast.
Before we go, I wanted to askShan about her podcast, The
Fellowship with the Mike, andwhat what should we uh expect in
the future?
I know you've kind of taken alittle break, hiatus.
Are you going to cover the newGame of Thrones show?
Are you just gonna do any othershow?

(01:21:50):
Are you gonna focus onstandalone uh episodes?

SPEAKER_00 (01:21:53):
Yeah, so Lewis is taking a break indefinitely.
He'll he could be back.
He doesn't really know, andthat's totally cool with me.
So for now, I'm just gonna havesome special guest hosts like I
used to do, um, which both ofyou guys were guests on for
that.
So, right now, um, if you guysknow campo.reviews, um well,

(01:22:16):
actually, I think his handlechanged a little bit.
He had a Redux.
So Campo.reviews.redux, he'scoming on, and he and I are
going to be talking about theDungeons and Dragons movies.
So, and by movies I mean the2000 one with Jeremy Irons and
Marlon Wayans.

SPEAKER_04 (01:22:33):
Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 (01:22:35):
And then the new one from 2023 with Chris Pine and
Michelle Rodriguez.
Um, so that's what we're gonnawe're actually gonna record
right after this today, finally.
So that's all I have lined upfor now.
Um, I have a few other peoplewho are interested, they just
have to pick their topics.
Yeah, um, as for the A Night ofthe Seven Kingdoms show, I don't

(01:22:58):
have any plans to cover it, butI'm more than happy to be a
guest whenever you guys need meto, because I will be watching
it, maybe making it a uh watchparty type thing with friends,
like I did for Last of Us, andthat's it for now.
So we'll see if and when Lewiswill come back, and then this is
the this is the plan for now.

SPEAKER_03 (01:23:19):
So I do recommend if you all if you want is that you
read the book.
I mean, the book is 350 pages,and I think each uh novella is
110 pages.
Like the first chapter is gonnabe the first season.
So if you just read the firstchapter, you're good.

(01:23:39):
But anyway, Chan, thank you somuch for joining us for a third
time.
We know that this will not beyour last, so we're happy about
that.
Um, thank you for talking, Gameof Thrones.
We've talked about the greed ofthis world, and people want to
boycott this, you know, boyc uhcancel Netflix.

SPEAKER_00 (01:23:57):
I have I have a big what if question for you guys.

SPEAKER_03 (01:24:00):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:24:01):
Okay.
What if Netflix redoes Game ofThrones?
Oh no.
No.

SPEAKER_03 (01:24:08):
You mean like a reboot?

SPEAKER_00 (01:24:09):
Completely redo it.

SPEAKER_03 (01:24:11):
No, it would be silly because they wouldn't take
it seriously.

SPEAKER_00 (01:24:15):
I know, right?
I mean but now they can, youguys.
Now they can.
It's in their ballpark now.

SPEAKER_03 (01:24:21):
If they paid George a billion dollars and be like,
okay, we want you to write everyevery episode and and be in
charge, then maybe.

SPEAKER_01 (01:24:30):
Like, but thinking about it now, like, didn't the
last Harry Potter movie come outin 2011 and then Game of Thrones
season one came out in 2011 aswell?
So it's like it's not too farfetched because it's uh even
though the last season was 2019,like with how ridiculous studios
are it's not an it's notimpossible for that to happen.

SPEAKER_03 (01:24:49):
And yeah, the one thing where Harry, but I hope it
never does.

SPEAKER_01 (01:24:52):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:24:52):
The one thing where the only difference with Harry
Potter is that this is gonna bea show and not a movie.
So I guess that's new in asense.

SPEAKER_01 (01:25:01):
Like they're what do they make it into a movie?

SPEAKER_03 (01:25:04):
You mean Harry Potter?
No, Game of Thrones, the movie,but it's not uh no, it's no a
six-part movie.
Yeah, and then it's just you seethe way um stran oh, I wish I
could talk stranger things.
But so anyway, because it getsannoying me.
Um have you are you do you watchit, Shan?

SPEAKER_00 (01:25:25):
I watched three seasons, and then everyone was
like, Oh, but you have to watchthe fourth season, Vecca is so
good, or whatever, and I'm like,no, I'm okay.
It's all the same.

SPEAKER_01 (01:25:36):
It's so bad.

SPEAKER_03 (01:25:37):
You didn't like any other episodes?

SPEAKER_00 (01:25:39):
No, I I mean I enjoyed one, two, three, but
then when it gets repetitive andnothing changes, and it's the
same thing over and over again,and then they try to nab me in
with uh season four is so good,and I'm like, no, it's not
guarantee it.

SPEAKER_03 (01:25:50):
Yeah, I I think it killed a lot of his momentum by
taking such a big break, andthat it throws you off when you
see these kids, adults.
I'm sorry, not kids, adults inthe show.
You're like that, they were socute 10 years ago.
That's gonna be all for our 7076th episode of Dancing with
Dragons.
To follow us on Instagram, go todancing with underscore dragons.

(01:26:14):
There we post reels, stories, uhfun polls, and any updates to
the podcast you'll find there.
If you want to shoot us a DM, goright ahead.
We welcome any ideas for thefuture shows.
Make sure to download ourepisodes in your preferred
podcast platform if you don'tmind.
Share, rate, all that goodstuff.

(01:26:35):
Thank you again for listening tothe podcast, and we'll see you
soon.
Peace out.

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