March 19, 2025 • 50 mins
In EP 62 of the Dancing with Dragons Podcast, Tony & Minwa discuss the Stark children facing new challenges while key alliances and rivalries form across the Seven Kingdoms. We discover the true depth of Joffrey's monstrosity through Sansa's confession to Lady Olenna, and witness Catelyn's heartbreaking admission about Jon Snow. Bran meets Jojen and and Meera Reed, who help him understand his mysterious dreams and warging abilities
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
oh, ladies answer.
It is my honor to present mygrandmother, the lady olena of
house tarantula kiss me, child.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
It's so good of you to visit me in my foolish flock
of hens.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
Very sorry for your losses and I was sorry when I
heard of lord renly's death hewas very gallant.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Gallant and charming and very clean.
He knew how to dress and smileand somehow this gave him the
notion he was fit to be king.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Renly was brave and gentle Grandmother, Father liked
him, and so did Loras.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Loras is young and very good at knocking men off
horses with a stick.
That does not make him wise, asdo your fathead father make him
wise, as do your fathead father, grandmother.
What will Sansa think of us she?
Speaker 4 (00:51):
might think we have some wits about us One of us, at
any rate.
Hello everyone, and welcome toDancing with Dragons, your go-to
podcast for everything relatedto Game of Thrones, house of the
Dragon and the rest of GeorgeRR Martin's A Song of Ice and
Fire universe.
My name is Minwa and I'm herewith my co-host, tony, and we're
here today continuing our recapof Game of Thrones, season 3.
(01:13):
Today we're diving into Episode2, dark Wings, dark Words.
The episode first aired onApril 7, 2013.
It is directed by DanielMinahan, who directed the season
three premiere, valar Dohaeris,as well as three episodes of
season one A Golden Crown, youWin or you Die, and the Pointy
End All great episodes and theepisode is written by Vanessa
Taylor, who is the co-executiveproducer of seasons two and
(01:34):
three of the show and who alsowrote two episodes of season two
, the Old Gods and the New, andGarden of Bones.
She was also later nominatedfor an Oscar for Best Original
Screenplay for the Shape ofWater, which won Best Picture.
So it's an episode with a verytalented team behind it and it's
a very great episode as well.
Just to quickly recap whathappens in the episode, robb
Stark learns that Winterfell isdestroyed by the Ironborn and
(01:55):
that Bran and Rickon havedisappeared.
Brienne of Tarth continuesescorting Jaime Lannister to
King's Landing, sansa meets theTyrells, arya runs into the
Brotherhood without banners andJon Snow struggles to earn Mance
Rayder's trust as the Night'sWatch returns to the Wall.
The episode title is aninteresting one as well Dark
Wings, dark Words.
It's not a very obvious orfamous reference to Song of Ice
(02:15):
and Fire, but in the universe ofthe show and the books it is an
old saying about messengerravens, referring to the fact
that such urgently deliveredmessages are often bad news.
In the episode we see suchurgent stravens as Robb receives
news of the death of HosterTully, as well as the sack of
Winterfell and thedisappearances of Bran and
Rickon.
So that pretty much sums up theepisode in a nutshell.
I can't wait to dive into itbecause it's an episode that's
(02:39):
expertly written, with so manyexcellent character moments,
things for us to dissect, diveinto and talk about.
It's one of those episodeswhere it makes you kind of
reminisce on how great the showcan be when they take their time
and really include thoughtfullythose moments that build the
universe and everyone that youknow and the dynamics between
them.
So I can't wait to talk aboutit.
(02:59):
And how are you, tony?
Speaker 5 (03:02):
I'm sure you're excited to talk about this one
as well.
To me, this episode felt like apart two of the premiere,
because we're catching up witheverybody with the remainder.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
Yeah, that's valid.
Speaker 5 (03:10):
And this episode.
It kind of focuses onintroductions and
reintroductions and reallyfocuses on magic, especially
with Bran and the concepts ofwarging, with people with the
sight, and I do want to juststart with that and we can start
with the episode up north, notbeyond the wall, they haven't
(03:32):
reached the wall yet but withHodor, osha, bran and the two
direwolves.
It's always nice to see twodirewolves on screen.
Yeah, this is really done.
You know it's summer.
And Shaggy Wolf.
Yeah, this episode is jampacked with introductions to
very important characters and Ithink we should just start with
whose name is Jojen Reed andMira Reed, and Reed sounds
(03:55):
familiar of a last name.
That's because they're the kidsof Howlin Reed, who was Vassal
of the Starks and probably Ned'sbest friend other than Robert,
or most loyal friend.
Actually, before you respond tothat, I do want to say that
unfortunately there's noDaenerys in this episode.
So sad face, yeah unfortunately.
(04:16):
No Stannis and no small councilfrom King's Landing and no Tywin
.
Okay.
Speaker 4 (04:21):
I'm happy with those.
Speaker 5 (04:22):
Yeah, and I do want to note a quick note that we't
uh talk about in the lastepisode is that in the opening
sequence, winterfell is depictedwith smoke and flames because
it was recently sacked andburned down by the gray droids,
but really it was the boltonsthat put it to the torch to jump
off what you said about bran.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
um, actually I forgot to include him in my little
synopsis, so sorry, but it'snice that we're starting the
episode with him to make up forthat.
Speaker 5 (04:50):
And boy did the author grow up.
He looks so much older fromseason two.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
He does, he does.
I mean this is like Brangrowing up right Like by the
time we see him in season eighthe's like a man.
Speaker 5 (05:01):
Anyway, okay, let's start episode two of season
three, dark Wings, dark Words.
The episode opens with Brandreaming of the first time we
saw him in the series.
It's kind of a carefree momentOne of the last times the whole
Stark family was together whenhe was practicing his archery.
We even hear Ned's voicebriefly, which makes you so
(05:22):
nostalgic.
From the pilot, like from thepremiere episode which feels
fitting, because this episodefeatures all his children, like
every all the star children arein this episode.
I do want to ask you a quickquestion because I couldn't find
it anywhere.
Um brand wakes up from hisdream and then osha says you're
having one of your black magicdreams.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
I don't like black magic like and I don't know she
was meaning blood magic, becauseI couldn't find any reference
to black magic dreams if you'retrying to find, like the canon,
or continuity for the exact term, I would just say that the best
explanation I could come upwith is just the fact that osha,
you know she's like maybe it'sjust like a word among the
(06:04):
common folk to describe darkmagic as love magic as uh black
magic, black magic yeah, it's avery uh, like real life word
that we use, that you know, inour world, like I don't know
about you, but like that's whatI got, like magic sometimes,
like that's just how it is.
so I would assume that maybe inthe North, like they're not as
(06:25):
familiar with magic, so that'swhat they would just call it,
like black magic, you know,instead of direct relating it to
blood magic.
Maybe they don't know that hasto do with, maybe there are
different forms of it.
I didn't look into that, to behonest.
That's just my on-the-spotexplanation for that.
Speaker 5 (06:42):
I mean, we see a lot of stuff beyond the wall that
you know.
They have wargs, they have allthat stuff.
We meet a warg up there, awildling warg, uh, and we'll
talk about him in a bit.
Like I mentioned, we meet jojenand mira.
Um, they're actually introducedmuch earlier in the novels, in
the book, uh, clash of kings.
They come to to winterfell as aguest and, uh, they're actually
(07:04):
there when theon attacks thecastle and they escape with
brand.
So the reason why they werepushed to season three is that
dan and dave decided that itwould have been too much to
introduce these characters inseason two.
Speaker 4 (07:19):
I think that was a good idea yeah, I feel like, um,
if they were kind of around tojust add to the context of how
the reed family are like vassalsof House Stark and how they
have rich history, just, butit's not necessarily needed Now,
it just it does kind of feellike they're just random
characters that appeared out ofnowhere.
But you know, like they didexplain that they were actively
(07:39):
looking for Bran because theyshare the same power, right.
So at least there's like someexplanation.
But I think that the books, howit is in the books, does kind
of make a bit more sense, justto keep in line with the history
of their houses.
Speaker 5 (07:54):
The Jojen is what they call a powerful and natural
born greenseer.
He could receive glimpses ofthe past, present and future in
his visions, and he talks tobrand when they meet about he
saw his father's death.
Interesting note from the bookis that georgian tells brand
that he had a green dream abouta winged wolf bound to earth
(08:15):
with the great stone chains.
A three-eyed crow was trying topeck through the chains, but
the stone was too hard and hisbeak could only chip at them.
Georgian explains that Bran isthe chain-winged wolf and the
crow sent the reeds to break hischains.
Mira said that when her brothertold their father about the
dream, he sent them toWinterfell for that purpose.
Speaker 4 (08:38):
This is a very magical-filled episode and I
think unfortunately I didn'twrite the exact quotes in my
notes, but like I just wrote,like the like, the gist of it.
But towards the end Jojen sayswhat matters the most Like I
think it just means like ingeneral is Bran.
So I think that that's veryinteresting, because I would
(08:58):
assume that Jojen at this pointsaw end of season eight and
that's you know, that's whyhe's's like I see you and you're
the most important thing,period, and I can't tell you
that.
So when I rewatched that sceneI was like, oh, he saw season 8,
that's it.
As Jojen keeps being mysteriousin the show, it's just
something to look out for.
(09:19):
Like oh, it was here referringto this or that, because I don't
really remember Jojen the onlything I remember is that he
played drums and love actuallyin the ending oh, yeah, yeah, I
can't unsee him as that littlekid like.
Speaker 5 (09:32):
Yeah uh, okay.
So let's uh stay north, butlet's go beyond and go and with
uh, john and uh, I want to sayjohn and the night's watch.
Uh, let's talk about John andMance Rayder.
I love that Mance Rayder.
He's still sniffing out ifJohn's you know, a double agent,
you know, and he tries toexplain to John.
(09:54):
Look, you know how hard it isto get all these he doesn't want
to say savages and he had tokind of figure out a way to get
them together.
But here he explains how he didit.
Speaker 6 (10:11):
You liked him, I like you.
But if you're playing thisfalse, it won't be hard for me
to kill you.
I've got wild in blood in myveins.
These are my people.
I understand.
Well.
How could you understand?
You want to protect your people.
Do you know what it takes tounite 90 clans, half of whom
want to massacre the other halffor one insult or another?
They speak seven differentlanguages.
(10:32):
In my army, the Fens hate theHornfoots.
The Hornfoots hate the IceRiver clans.
Everyone hates the cave people.
So you know how I got moonworshippers and cannibals and
giants to march together in thesame army.
No, I told them we were allgoing to die if we don't get
(10:53):
south, because that's the truth.
Speaker 5 (10:57):
I want to learn more about the moon worshippers and
what's the deal with the cavepeople.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
I'm sure there's a some info we can find there oh,
definitely, george has everylike nook and cranny of us a
world like written and plannedout, so maybe one day that's an
episode for another day so Ithink it's estimated.
Speaker 5 (11:16):
They never say the number but I think in the future
seasons uh, it was estimatedlike there was over a hundred
thousand wildlings together, butthat that was just a brief
scene of them talking.
And then we're introduced to auh work from, like I said, a
wildling war.
His character's name is oraland actually he was killed.
(11:38):
This character was killed inthe clash of kings novel.
He and eager with two of thethree watchers that corn half
hands party okay encounter.
So uh, the third wiling wasslain but but the part of oro
spirit remained in his eagle.
So technically he should notappear in the third season but
he lives on in his working as aneagle.
(11:59):
But the tv character or I, wasmore of a splice with another
war character in the book calledVaramir Sixkin.
Speaker 4 (12:07):
I know that they probably couldn't have done it,
but it would be cool to see aneagle that has the spirit of a
human.
But I know that it would havebeen very hard for them to
communicate that that's what wasgoing on.
It probably would have openedup a can of worms worms for uh
theories and other other likepossibilities for the show I do
want to do an episode in thefuture about just it's going to
(12:29):
be titled worry because it'skind of it's just really
fascinating about working.
I want to say, um, that's it's.
It's kind of bugged me in a waythat they had john not know
what's working is becausecorrect me if I'm wrong, but
isn't he like a warg in thebooks, like by now, like he, he
did his right, like I, just Ijust had to like triple check
(12:50):
because he is, and that's whatthe storks are known for.
And the fact that they had johnasked that's kind of just I
don't know.
It's like if there was somecreative choice there of having
john be unfamiliar with itbecause he was like the
illegitimate child and then they, they told the others to learn
about it.
I think that would have beenkind of okay, but it's just too
much and I just wish that hejust knew what it was, because
(13:10):
it's more in line with hislineage and it should have made
more sense.
So, yeah, I just got like it'sa tiny dislike about the episode
they all have the ability to doit.
Speaker 5 (13:20):
I don't remember when he does it.
I I'm really bad at remembering.
I could read something and fiveminutes later, I just forget.
So.
When uh they ask, uh man'sinterrupts orals, uh warging,
and ask what he sees, he seesthe fist of the first man and he
sees dead crows.
And that transitions us to samand the night's watch going back
(13:41):
south, and this is just like areally fast scene of Sam being
bullied again.
We've gone back to when hefirst joined the Night's Watch
and he just has one major bullyand that's name is Rast.
The only thing that I foundfunny and ironic is that this
character, rast, keeps callingSam piggy.
Oh hey, rast, just a quicklittle thing.
(14:04):
People who live in glass housesshouldn't throw stones.
Let's go to the riverlands andyou spoke about the ravens
bringing news and before rusebolton shows up with the ravens,
rob is there looking handsome,like you know.
You know how he looks.
No, sorry, and you have tolisten, I'm over to this is
(14:30):
saying that her mom always meanttold her that you know, people
from westeros are like stink andare savages.
And it's funny because it's theopposite westeros.
You say that people from acrossthe narrow sea are savages.
Savages is just hurled at one.
Another right but interestingnote is that roost calls talissa
queen and I thought that wasinteresting it's just gross,
(14:52):
like you know, showing that he'son their side uh, but I think
this, this episode for rob isagain.
He's being to me.
In this episode we see thegrowing resentment that uh car
star cast towards rob.
Just keeps he's becoming amalcontent.
He's questioning everythinglike why are we doing this?
This is stupid.
This is your king.
(15:12):
If he tells you to jump, youjust do it.
You don't question it.
The one thing that Karstarkdoes is drop a truth bomb or he
foreshadows Rob's demise.
Is that Rob says you don'tthink we can win this war?
Karstark replies may I speak mymind, your grace?
Rob says have you not beenspeaking your mind, Lord
(15:34):
Karstark?
Speaker 4 (15:36):
And then he says you lost this war the day you
married her, referring toTalissa.
I mean it's like a mic dropmoment from Stark and Obey, like
a brutal honesty right.
Speaker 5 (15:46):
Yes, something that.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
Rob does not want to hear, but it's true, isn't it
Like it is true?
Speaker 5 (15:52):
Yeah, if Rob was another guy who wasn't, I mean,
rob is his father's son, hewants to be honorable.
He's not going to be awomanizer like a like a robert,
like robert would have been likeokay to listen.
You come with me, you're goingto be my mistress, you're going
to be my little in my side girl.
Well, I have to get I have toget married to this fray, but
(16:12):
don't worry about I'll be withyou all the time.
I just have to go over thereand check on her once in a while
.
Uh, and that's it.
But, rob, as I know I I we hadintimate relations.
I have to marry you.
That that's just the honorablething to do.
That's one of those things thatwe can also discuss.
When did rob lose the war?
Speaker 4 (16:30):
it was like I don't want to call it the first
mistake, but like it was the key, I guess, mistake.
Because you know, by marryingher he basically threw away the
opportunity for marriagealliances and he ordered like
any other ones.
You know, like maybe if it wassomeone stronger than the phrase
, then the phrase would havebeen okay with it, like there
may have been some room there,but you know he married like a
(16:51):
nobody from Essos, so it's notsitting well with anybody in
Westeros.
And you know you said somethingabout the fact that you know he
wants to keep his word andstuff.
Soros, and you know you saidsomething about the fact that
you know he wants to keep hisword and stuff.
And that's like the fact thathe didn't keep his word and
didn't keep his word.
Mary Frager shows that like hemight not be his father's son.
Speaker 5 (17:17):
His bannermen are starting to doubt him as well,
because he didn't keep his wordand also because of the Jamie
incident and everything that'shappened.
So it's just like you know allthese it's like a perfect storm
of's happened.
It's just like a perfect storm.
Speaker 4 (17:22):
Yes, it's like a hurricane of everything wrong
just happening.
Speaker 5 (17:25):
I want to do a little callback on us.
When we talked about MichelleFarrelly and how she's a great
actress and one of her bestmoments and we've come to that
moment and when she has anadmission of guilt to Talisa and
she talks about how she wasmean to John.
But I think the scene is sopowerful and so beautifully
(17:47):
acted by her that, other thanthe red wedding, is probably her
best scene of the whole series.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
I agree.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Many years before that one of the boys came down
with the box.
Mr Lewin said if he made itthrough the night he'd live, but
it would be a very long night.
So I sat with him all throughthe darkness, Listened to his
rugged little breath, hiscoughing, his whimpering.
(18:30):
Which boy?
John Snow?
When my husband brought thatbaby home from the war, I
couldn't bear to look at him.
I didn't want to see thosebrown stranger's eyes staring
off at me.
So I prayed to the gods Takehim away, make him die.
He got the pox and I knew I wasthe worst woman who ever lived.
(18:55):
A murderer, a murderer.
I'd condemned this poor,innocent child to a horrible
death, all because I was jealousof his mother, a woman he
didn't even know.
So I prayed to all seven godsLet the boy live.
(19:17):
Let him live and I'll love him.
I'll be a mother to him.
I'll beg my husband to give hima true name, to call him Stark
and be done with it, to make himone of us.
And he lived, and he lived and Icouldn't keep my promise.
(19:44):
And everything that's happenedsince then, all this horror
that's come to my family, it'sall because I couldn't love a
motherless child it's one ofthose uh what if?
Speaker 5 (20:06):
questions.
What if she did keep herpromise?
Speaker 4 (20:09):
I don't think that's an interesting what's if.
But yeah, I I don't think shecould have either because she
can't.
Speaker 5 (20:16):
Her honor would have been too much to be like.
I cannot raise this child as myown.
When you are unfaithful, that'sa heartbreaking scene.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
Yeah, sorry, I want to comment on the cat thing so
badly, but when you talked aboutthe honor in relation to this,
it made me think that Nedprobably did have his reputation
tainted because of John.
I mean, now it makes me wonderif, even though I said what I
(20:45):
said about Rob and how this is,like I know it's more acceptable
having an legitimate childrather than marrying an SOC,
like it just makes me wonder ifthere was some way where it
could have been forgotten andforgiven.
I just, I guess to them it'sjust it's worse marrying an SOC
rather than I'm sorry, I know,know, associate might not be the
right the night, they're notthe right word, but to them
(21:05):
that's probably worse than anintimate child.
If rob had one by now theyprobably wouldn't care, but but
anyways, um, yeah, about, aboutcat.
Just to go back to the scene, Ithink that, as you said, it's
one of her strongest.
It's her strongest scene,actually in the entire show, as
you said, um, and I love that.
It's a scene where you know weget this character.
That's good, you know, like thesharks are good, they're good
(21:26):
people, they're on the rightside and everything, but there's
still some darkness there,which is why and we love game of
thrones all of them are kind ofgray hair characters and it's a
very dark side to cat becauseshe she recognizes it herself,
the fact that she's dark and shecan't love a motherless child,
even when she frames it in themost sad way she can't bring
(21:47):
herself to do that.
It's just so sad and dark andgrey, but also I think it's
powerful as a scene in Wildressand I like it, other than the
fact that I don't approve of herdoing what she did to John.
Speaker 5 (22:02):
It's deeply humanizing and, uh, complex it's
.
It sheds a light on, like, herstruggle and, with grief and
resentment, like makes her morethan just a protective mother
but a woman that's kind ofstruggling with the weight of
the past regrets and pastmistakes, and I think just it's
(22:23):
so good, I mean.
And then you have the starkmusic in the background, yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:28):
And then it's cuts.
It's cuts to John, like lookingso sad in the in the in the
North, so it just it gets to you.
And when I mentioned earlier onthe episode that this episode
has so many great charactermoments, this is what I mean.
Like this is a defining momentfor Kat in the entire series.
Speaker 5 (22:45):
This is right now at the top of scene of the episode.
Yeah, let's quickly go to TheonGreyjoy.
Last time we saw him was inWinterfell, and we see him again
.
And this is the beginning ofTheon's journey into becoming
reek, which is crazy, I think.
When you're reading the bookshe just completely disappears,
(23:07):
right, and you're like, yeah, hefinally shows up and like I
think the fourth or fifth book.
And then so this person ishaving a pov and you're like who
is this?
And then you slowly figure outthat this is theon.
The torment that he's enduredin ramsay's hand is so extreme,
even though he's madequestionable choices, obviously,
(23:28):
and we can't overlook hisportrayal to the starks.
It's just does any persondeserve that kind of
dehumanization or torture?
And you know what I mean thecruelty, you know, it's just so.
It's so weird because at firstyou're like, yes, they call him,
let's see.
But then you begin to seewhat's done to him.
You're like he needs apsychologist really quick to
(23:51):
help him.
That's bad.
I mean, it's really.
Speaker 4 (23:53):
I mean this is just the beginning I, I have to be
honest, like I could barelywatch it, I I fast forwarded
through the theon scenes becauseit's too much, I can't do that.
I don't have it in me to towatch this again.
I have to be honest, I can't.
I'm not doing it Like I'mbarely doing it.
I'm watching it like on liketwo X speed.
I can't do it.
I can't, I can't.
Speaker 5 (24:16):
Funny because I watched the episode twice.
I texted you yesterday and Isaid, yeah, I watched it a few
days ago but I was really tiredand I kept falling asleep, not
because it's not good, but I wasjust really tired.
And then yesterday I actuallysat down and watched it on my
computer and just kind of takingnotes, and I go, man, I don't
remember this scene, so I musthave slept through the torture.
(24:37):
I didn't watch it.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
Let's go to king's landing and I think please let's
move on, let's go, let's leavethe torture.
Speaker 5 (24:45):
And, uh, let's go to shay, and I think last week we
talked about shay's.
You asked me a question, do youdo?
I think shay is being genuineand with her, uh, what was the
word?
Speaker 4 (24:56):
concerns over sansa kind.
Speaker 5 (24:57):
Yes, exactly, he said it perfectly her concerns and I
think this episode proves thatshe's actually trying to look
out for Sansa At this point.
Sansa is growing, but she'sstill very naive when it comes
to the real world of what she'sstill thinking.
Well, Littlefinger's not inlove with me, he's too old.
She doesn't realize that thatdoes not matter in this world.
Speaker 4 (25:20):
Yeah, yeah, she's, I think, like letting go of the.
Like it's the last bit of hernaivety, like her naiveness,
like it's the last bit of itthat we see here.
Speaker 5 (25:30):
And Shay is that that person from she's?
She's introducing street smart.
This is how the other peoplelive.
We don't have.
You know, you live basically alife of royalty, not with
Winterfell, but she's.
You know she's the daughter ofa lord, which is the closest
thing as a.
(25:50):
You know you get as a princesswithout being a princess.
So I think every passing scenewe get more and more you can see
that Shay is actually lookingout for her.
Speaker 4 (26:01):
Yeah, I think it felt quite authentic in this scene.
Like I'm really interested inseeing how the whole Shea
storyline will play out.
I know that you have yourfeelings about her and the
actress and stuff, but I feellike I just really am keeping an
eye on her because I want toreally dig into her interactions
with everybody because you know, know, obviously we know how
(26:22):
she's going to end up and what'sgoing to happen later on.
So I'm keeping it in my mindevery time I see her on screen.
So that's why I kind of doubtedher, uh, or I want to keep it
in mind with the premiere andwhy I kept mine now and I just
think that at least maybe, um,her relationship with Sansa
shows that she wasn't this likehorrible person, like she was
(26:42):
being authentic, she was lookingout for her and, even though we
will hate her, like at least itshows that she did some good
during her time in King'sLanding, like she wasn't just
there to plot and scheme and youknow, and like betray someone
or whatever.
She was there, like she wasactually looking out for someone
and cared about someone there.
So it like redeems parts of hercharacter and and, yeah, I'm
(27:04):
just gonna keep keep an eye onher.
Every time we see her, just tohave more thoughts on her and
let's stay with.
Speaker 5 (27:12):
She has a scene with tyrian later on and it's one of
those actually a funny scene,not like a laugh out loud moment
, but it's very cute.
They're having this little spatbecause he says something like
sansa's very beautiful and ofcourse you know he says
something like sansa's just whowouldn't want to be with her, or
(27:33):
she's just so something to thateffect and she gets.
I don't know if she gets upset,but it's playful and it is an
example of uh, of it's veryrelatable because you can see
that argument between a coupleand like a rom-com or something,
uh, I mean, who hasn'texperienced that?
Let's go back to sansa, becauseI'm jumping all over the place
(27:56):
with sansa.
So, so Loras comes to pick upSansa because Margaery wants to
have lunch with her or some kindof date.
Sansa's looking in the mirrormaking sure everything's perfect
.
She's so giddy because she'sreally nice to Loras Poor thing.
I mean they would makebeautiful babies.
Speaker 4 (28:24):
I mean, yeah, she was , they would, would, and she was
smitten, I guess.
But I mean, we see it, we seethe illusion fade instantly,
don't you, don't you think?
Speaker 5 (28:29):
yeah, because she's like oh, you don't remember me,
you gave me the flower he goes.
He wasn't really thinking aboutgirls, yeah he's thinking about
.
Speaker 4 (28:37):
Really, he said something like of course I did
and she was like, of course Idid and she was like, of course
you did, like what I wasn't, youknow like the girl that you've
been secretly admiring orsomething.
So just it's instantly phasedin.
You can see kind of herexpression drop, which I just
think is so uh, like that wasfunny to see.
But as we see with sansa, asher time or like her storyline
(28:58):
progresses slowly, slowly, likethe just scene by scene, episode
by episode, like the clamor oflife, and everything just fades,
you know like the rose-coloredglasses fades away, episode by
episode, and there's barelyanything left now.
If anything, it was maybe justDoris.
Speaker 5 (29:16):
Well, at the beginning of this episode we
hear the introduction of OlennaTyrell, so let's talk about that
.
I want to say one thing abouther.
She's one of the mostcaptivating, sharp-tongued
characters in the show.
I mean, her wit is legendary,she's formidable, she's
strategic.
I mean she knows how to playthe game, she's cunning and has
(29:38):
a complete disregard for theniceties you expect from a noble
woman.
She's just straight to thepoint and I just love her.
I love her.
Speaker 4 (29:47):
I love her too and that's the thing that I love
when we get a good TV in general.
Her introduction, her scenethat we included earlier in our
podcast episode, this episode ofthe introduction it's kind of
like a perfect characterintroduction for a TV, one of
the great ones, I guess, in theshow, because we see her and we
(30:09):
immediately know what type ofperson she is and we immediately
love her and we immediately seethat she's different than
everybody who's already seen itin the show.
So she comes in as like abreath of fresh air and
immediately captivates us andmakes us love.
Love her because you know shecomes in and the first thing
that she says, I think, is kissme, child.
And she gives her hand, sendsus a kiss.
Like what type of person wouldsay that?
(30:29):
Like that's a sassy grandma,you know what I mean?
Like I love that.
And she just says everythingoutright.
You know, in a show whereeveryone is being so like
political and like diplomaticand saying things in very
flowery language, like notsaying what they mean, she just
said everything very bluntly,very directly, and we really
love her for that, because noone else on the show is like
(30:50):
that.
She says you know my son is aponderous oaf, and my husband as
well Like she's real and she'sfunny and it's just such a scene
stealer, and it's the perfectcharacter introduction, I think,
for her.
Speaker 5 (31:03):
She's amazing.
Sansa has been so close-lippedfor so long.
She doesn't really want to talkever, and the first time she
just says what she's thinking.
And the truth is right here.
Because Olenna's like just talk, she wants to know about
Joffrey.
Olenna's like, just talk, shewants to know about Joffrey.
And I was thinking in my headwhen I was watching this episode
.
I said, wow, this was thebeginning of the end for Joffrey
(31:25):
.
Right here, half the Sazastells her.
Speaker 4 (31:28):
Yeah, you know, as you said, it's the beginning of
the end of Joffrey, and I thinkthat's right.
Then in there there was likethis quick.
Speaker 5 (31:38):
Well, let's listen in here.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Are you frightened child?
No need for that.
We're only women here.
Tell us the truth, no harm willcome to you.
My father always told the truth.
Yes, he had that reputation andthey named him traitor and took
his head.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
Joffrey.
Joffrey did that.
He promised he would bemerciful and he cut my father's
head off and he said that wasmercy.
He took me up on the walls andmade me look at it.
Go on, I can't.
(32:24):
I never meant my father was atraitor.
My brother as well.
I have traitor's blood.
Please don't make me say anymore.
She's terrified.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Grandmother Just look at her.
Speak freely, child.
We would never betray yourconfidence, I swear it.
He's a monster.
Ah, that's a pity.
Please don't stop the wedding.
Have no fear, the Lord Oath ofHighgarden is determined that
(32:54):
Margaery shall be queen.
Even so, we thank you for thetruth.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
When Sansa said he's a monster, he goes yeah what a
pity like she wasn't like oh mygod, marjorie, what are we gonna
do?
Speaker 4 (33:10):
she's like what a pity yeah, that's exactly what
I'm saying, like it's not a pitythat.
Oh, it's a pity, he's just,he's a monster.
No, it's like, oh, it's a pitythat I'm gonna have to kill him
then, like you could see it inher face, like if you're
listening, uh, dear listeners,go back and re-watch that scene.
It's just a minute on youtube.
It's so clear in her face.
And then she follows that upwith saying like oh no, but like
(33:31):
the oaf of high garden,referring to her own son, she
was like he, he's determinedthat marjorie is queen, but
didn't say it's a witch king.
You know, like I'm 100% surethat's at that point, like
that's it.
They already had the plan.
It's just a matter of likesticking its house until they're
able to do it until the wedding.
Yeah, I wish that scene waslike it's so good, but with the
(33:54):
music.
So I just wish it was a bitlonger and we got more of it,
because it's so good, but yeah.
Speaker 5 (34:01):
I mean, I think when you look at the scene that's
just like half.
I think the whole scene withthe introduction is close to
five minutes, I think.
Speaker 4 (34:12):
I can have more of it .
I love it so much.
And a small detail I love thatthey included in this scene is
Sansa's love for lemon cakes andthe fact that Elena knows this.
So it's is Sansa's love forlemon cakes and the fact that
Olenna knows this.
So it's like Sansa has areputation for loving lemon
cakes.
In Westeros they prepared itfor her already, you know, at
the tea party, so it's reallygood.
I'm with Sansa.
Lemon cakes are really good.
It's a nice little Easter egg.
(34:33):
It's a widely known fact thatSansa loves lemon cakes.
Speaker 5 (34:36):
All right.
So we're going gonna stay inking's landing, we're gonna do
joffrey with cersei and thenwe'll go to marjorie and joffrey
.
Last week we had the dinnerscene with marjorie, joffrey,
loris and cersei and I thoughtit was really funny.
Because we just see cersei,just her blood is boiling
because she cannot standmarjorie and this episode.
(34:57):
Joffrey is being fitted forsome kind of outfit.
Cersei does not fail to dig inand shoot little insults to
Margaery.
On the side he's giving alittle piece of cloth.
I mean it's little, it's like asepal cloth.
This is what's gonna look likeand it was like a flowery.
He goes, no flowers.
Cersei goes and says we can usethat for Margaery's gown.
(35:18):
It's more than enough fabric.
Oh, so funny, so sassy so sassy.
Speaker 4 (35:27):
I I love these like moments.
I think game of thrones.
I said it a couple of times nowit's a comedy when you, when
you, when you want to see it asa company, it can be a comedy.
Speaker 5 (35:35):
It's so funny but she also says you know, we can't,
basically we can't trust her.
Like what's the deal with herbeing with the all these
lowborns and stuff like that?
She cares about them and he'slike I don't care about them.
So so it's like he's she'strying she's still trying to
manipulate him.
Kind of scary that everyepisode he's feeling more and
more disdain towards his mother.
Like everything she saysbothers him.
(35:57):
Like she's trying to explainstuff to him and he's just like
it's like the most boringconversation ever.
Yeah, it's most boringconversation ever.
Speaker 4 (36:05):
Like yeah, it's, it's bugging him but he can't help.
But like fall prey to like youknow, let's fall prey.
That sounds like a bit weirdbut it's.
It's fine because it's Cersei.
But like believe hurts, it'slike just some extent because
that just like informs how hetreats Marge during the later
scene.
Like okay, like he's havingthis growing like disdain for
her.
It's still like resonating withhim on some level.
(36:26):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 5 (36:27):
Like like it's still working, cersei's words are
still kind of working that's Ithink let's stick with joffrey,
because I think this marjoriescene with him is outstanding,
because we get, uh, joffrey, whois so smitten with her, he's
all my lady, my this veryflowery with her, and this one
he's kind of giving her thethird degree of asking her what
(36:49):
were you doing with Renly?
How can you be with Renly?
I just once he starts diggingin with like really hard
questions for her what's thename of Natalie Dormer?
Is that her name?
Speaker 4 (37:00):
Dormer, dormer.
Speaker 5 (37:01):
Dormer.
Yes, sorry, natalie, you cancome on the show and I'll
apologize.
You can see the realization onher face that this is a
different Joffrey that she'sseeing.
His tone and demeanor aredifferent and she instantly
turns into this frail.
And she's very naive Like thispoor little woman.
Oh, woe is me.
(37:22):
I do want to mention thatRenly's sexuality is brought up
a whole bunch in this episode.
I don't know if you noticed, Imean it's brought up by Cersei,
it's brought up by Joffrey, it'sbrought up by Jaime.
At the end I'm jumpingeverywhere.
Sorry he mentions that he wantsto make Renly's perversion
punishable by death.
And you can see Margaery's face.
My brother would be put todeath if found out.
(37:45):
Her face is straight as anarrow.
She goes um.
Speaker 4 (37:48):
You do whatever you need to do like she's like
navigating this conversation ina way to like to make it as safe
as possible for her but alsojust to like steer clear of
anything.
We talk a lot like about howmarjorie is so clever, and I
think that we really see it inthis scene.
I think the scene also happensafter the sound, so when where
she kind of has it's in the backof her mind that you know he's
(38:09):
a monster and everything so likethat's why I think she was also
very prepared on like how tosteer the conversation with that
in her mind.
She knows not to like play withfire or say anything.
She knows.
Okay, go, go and say the safestthing you know, like like fluff
him up, make him feel goodabout himself.
Just as long as it's not, theattention isn't on you and the
(38:31):
conversation is actually a verydangerous and frightening one
because he like greets her witha crossbow.
He's saying that he's going togo on a hunting trip, but the
crossbow is pointed at her thewhole time, like for most of it,
at least in the beginning, Iguess that's how he greets her.
It's not just that.
(38:51):
I think he was interrogatingher, he was threatening her Like
.
This is a very frighteningsituation for her, especially
after the Sansa thing.
The episode then ends with themkind of pointing the crossbow
together at the mirror, likeit's a very excellent shot where
you see it from kind of likethe mirror's point of view, like
from their perspective, lookingat the mirror, and they're
holding the crossbow atthemselves.
And the way that I kind ofinterpreted it, that scene, like
the visual meaning of it, isthe fact that she's kind of like
(39:13):
killing a part of herself inorder to survive.
Do you know what I mean?
Like that's kind of like how Iread that image, because she
can't show who she is anymore toJoffrey.
She has to always like presentherself with a mask and she does
that.
You can, you can argue like shehas been doing that and
presenting herself as like thebubbly Marjorie Tyrell.
(39:33):
Any bit of that has to like besecondary.
Now the first thing is survival.
So that's how I kind ofinterpreted the ending of that
scene and, um, like her, her andJoffrey kind of standing
together is kind of like how sheto mesh with him and get a part
of herself.
That's just how I interpretthis.
I could be reading too muchinto it, but I think that's I
don't know.
(39:53):
Framing that scene in that wayhad to have meant something, and
that's what I interpreted.
Interpreted it as, and I wantto know more of your thoughts on
the scene I.
Speaker 5 (40:02):
What I got out of is that marjorie now knows that
joffrey is drawn to violence andlike shock value.
So, while pretending to beinnocent, she adds like a little
bit of darkness to make himlook down on renly like, oh yeah
, you know he was, so you know Itry to make a child to him.
And blah, blah, blah he.
He wanted to do somethingforbidden and she kept kept
(40:25):
putting Renly down.
So in doing this she'sbasically fueling his twisted
desires.
You know even more, sansa'syoung.
She doesn't play the game, butshe was always constantly afraid
.
She couldn't handle Joffrey.
Even Cersei is now unsure on howto control this freaking
monster that she's raised, butMargaery, on the other hand, she
(40:45):
knows how to communicate andmanipulate this guy that she's
going to marry.
So while other people try toflatter him or make him follow
their lead, she understands thathe wants somebody who is going
to share his twisted view of theworld, and her way to get into
him is not by seduction, becausethat's not going to work.
(41:07):
He's not really into sex at all.
We've learned that in seasontwo when he had those women
brought to him.
And what did he do?
Instead of doing what thenormal person does?
He tortures them.
So she's far too smart to winover Joffrey with her sexuality,
as she does with any other man,and if I was a Joffrey I would
(41:28):
have just handed over thekingdom to her within one look
and I'm like whatever you wantme to do, that's fine, sorry.
Speaker 4 (41:37):
And then you make fun of me for saying majestic once.
Speaker 5 (41:41):
I'll take that out so my wife can't hear it.
That's good, but when I seethis scene, it's the more the
when I see this scene it's themore.
When I see the scene withmarjorie, the more and more I
love seeing her play this gameand I just love her as a
character.
Prior to seeing this uh seasonwith the podcast, we're doing
like marjorie wasn't in my scopeof all favorite characters.
(42:04):
Now that I'm like focusing andwe're deep diving, I don't know,
I feel like she's just she canplay the game.
Uh, one little note before wemove on.
This crossbow scene is not inthe books, it's just something
written for the show.
So, uh, for adding this scenebecause it's one of the best.
Let's move back north to almostwhere the riverlands are.
(42:25):
I think they're close tothere's aa, gendry and Hot Pie.
Speaker 4 (42:28):
They're still like on the run from Harrenhal with
their swords and Gendry kind ofteases her about like, oh, you
could have ended the war becausenow they know who she is, you
know it's not the secrets andshe tells them what Jack and
Hagar, and so he's like youcould have ended the war, like
you could have told him to killTywin, joffrey, whoever.
And she's just like I did whatI could and like it is a very
(42:51):
like popular topic amongst Gameof Thrones fans.
It's also like a humanizingflaw, I guess, or like a
humanizing mistake that she did.
She comes up with the idea ofgoing to Riverrun because she
knows that's her grandfather'sand that's what she tells them.
But then they end up meetingthe Brotherhood Without Banners,
which is like this outlaw group, for lack of a better word.
Speaker 5 (43:10):
Yeah, this group was initially created by soldiers
and sent by Eddard Stark.
Remember he sent BericDondarrion to hunt down the
mountain.
It's like guerrilla warfare.
So their soldiers grew and grewand grew after the War of the
Five Kings and their focus isprotecting the common folk from
all sides of the conflict.
And every member is knighted byBeric.
(43:32):
We don't see him in thisepisode I think we'll get to see
him in the next one but we domeet a fascinating and awesome
character.
Speaker 4 (43:40):
Yes, thoros of Myr.
He's like singing along andpolitely threatens them and kind
of just wants to interrogatethem, takes them to a bar, asks
them how they escaped Harrenhaland then ends up freeing them.
But then, unfortunately forArya, the Hound waltzes in.
He didn't waltz in, he wascaptured by them and he
(44:05):
basically like outs her as aStark Right as they were about
to escape.
So that's where Arya's arc endsfor this episode.
Speaker 5 (44:15):
And I think that's the Hound's first appearance
since he quit and said peace outto Joffrey at the Battle of
Blackwater.
We're going to finish thisepisode with Brienne and Jaime,
which we have not seen since theseason two finale.
They get a lot of screen time.
We get Jaime and Brienne andJaime, which we have not seen
since the season two finale.
They get a lot of screen time.
We get Jaime and Briennetalking and again when I
mentioned about Renly'ssexuality, jaime starts teasing
(44:37):
her about Renly and how Renly'srelationships with guys was like
the worst kept secret in King'sLanding.
Everybody knew.
How could you not know?
And brienne takes uh offense tothat.
They see a I guess just aregular person, commoner, walk
by.
That's the moral question.
(44:58):
Is jamie says you need to killhim because if he he knows me,
he recognized me he's gonna findsomebody and say, hey, I saw
the king slayer on the king'sroad or traveling, whatever.
What?
This not hard to find giantwoman was blonde.
Yeah, brienne is not gonna dothat.
She's never gonna kill aninnocent person.
So we knew that that will comeback, bite them and but we
(45:21):
didn't realize it would havebeen in the same episode yeah,
yeah, I forgot that that'shappened in this episode as well
.
Speaker 4 (45:27):
I thought it would happen in the next and that's
where the episode ends, actually.
Um, but something that I wantto mention too.
I want to mention two thingsabout the scene very quick.
Um, I we talked about how we'reso excited to see their
storyline play out, andre-watching the scene, um, it
made me happy that they kind ofdid it the way that they did.
Like, did the storyline the waythat they did, because in the
(45:48):
books there's like a thirdperson with them, right, like a
Lannister cousin.
Speaker 5 (45:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (45:52):
So omitting him was an exodus idea because it added
to the tension between Jaime andBrienne, you know.
And then like the possible,like you know, like the romance
between them, it's not the sameif there is a third person.
They're just complaining aboutwhatever, about whatever, um,
and something that I love thatthey included here as well is
that in this episode you seethat jamie is showing the tyrian
in him.
You know, cersei and tywinwouldn't dare talk to brienne
(46:14):
this way, but like jamie is outthere like trying to find out
more about her, um, questioningher, you know, trying to find
out her backstory, and he'smaking jokes, but like he's
teasing her, but he's not likehe was teasing her in a mean way
, yes, but like in the books hewas meaner, but he's just
speaking like Tyrion would.
It was very Tyrion of him.
He's just trying to makeconversation, um, and of course
(46:35):
it's all for his own knowledgeand his like gain as well.
Like he wants to have the upperhand and figure out like her
motives, to tease her to, toplot, basically, but that's
still not something that peoplelike Cersei and Tywin would do,
like they're very proud, theywould remain quiet and just like
insult her and nothing else,but he was questioning her
making conversations.
So I just wanted to say that Iliked seeing that a lot, because
(46:57):
it's Jaime being more Tyrionthan he is being more Cersei and
I love that.
I love that whenever we see himlike without her, you see kind
of how much better he is.
You see the the betterLannister side and him come
through as we do here and howlike her, her influence on him
is just fading away, fading away, fading away.
So I just I really like Ididn't like that.
Speaker 5 (47:19):
So they have a little dueling session, which not
really.
I mean, he's kind of hasmanacles on he's and he's got
his manacles on he's and he,they're exhausted and she has
armor, so he has all thisagainst them, but without that,
I don't know what happens tobrianna, because I think he
could have figured out a way todefeat her, but who knows, and
(47:41):
again, not killing that innocentguy he comes back to bite them.
At the end we see a bannermanof a house fray come with the
flayed, uh, men on the cross,and they know exactly who that
is.
They know that's jamie, andjamie's like oh, my father's
gonna pay you, blah, blah, blah.
And he says why would I wantyour money?
If I take your money, then, uh,my head is going to be chopped
(48:04):
off by the king, meaning KingRob.
That's how the episode ends,with them being taken hostage.
And it's the beginning of theend of the Jaime Lannister that
we met and the beginning of theJaime that we began to admire
and like Does that make sense?
Speaker 4 (48:24):
Yeah, we mentioned how season three is like a
pivotal season for all thesecharacters, and that applies to
Jamie.
Speaker 5 (48:31):
Why don't we say our scene of the episode?
Speaker 4 (48:34):
There are so many great scenes, but I think my
favorite is the scene with Elenaand Sansa and Marjorie.
Speaker 5 (48:40):
Yes, that's great too .
I mean, they're all great.
Is it a cop out?
And they're all great, is it acop-out if I say I have a
three-way or two-way tie?
Speaker 4 (48:47):
No, that's fine.
Speaker 5 (48:48):
Or a three-way tie.
I love that scene, olena'sintroduction, I love Catelyn's
scene of admission of guilt andthen the Margaery scene with
Joffrey.
If I had to rank it, I'dprobably do Catelyn, olena and
Margaery, but they're allfantastic scenes and all were
(49:09):
given time.
We we were there with them.
My only dislike is that wethere was many moments in this
episode that we were withcharacters for like a minute and
then, boom, transition to thenext.
You know, we were at the northfor like maybe two minutes, boom
next.
And that's my only like petpeeve of the episode that's fine
.
Speaker 4 (49:26):
I agree with you.
I feel like it was veryjam-packed, but like I still
think that it has a lot of likestrengths, let's say value like
I still think it's a very goodepisode all right.
Speaker 5 (49:38):
Uh, what is your rating for dark wings, dark
words?
Speaker 4 (49:43):
maybe like an 8.5, 8.6.
Okay, that's what you gave thelast one, right, 8.5 or?
Speaker 5 (49:45):
8.
Then I'll give this an 8.5, 8.6.
Okay, that's what you gave thelast one, right?
8.5 or 8.6?
Speaker 4 (49:49):
Then I'll give this an 8.6.
It's better than the last one,maybe Like a little bit, so like
point by point one.
Speaker 5 (49:58):
I'm going to do 8.3.
I like the first episode betterthan this one.
Well, that's going to be allfor our coverage of Season 3,
Episode 2.
Next podcast we'll be talkingabout Episode 3 of Season 3,
called the Walk of Punishment.
Speaker 4 (50:15):
Ooh.
Speaker 5 (50:16):
Yes, it's funny.
I see that title and the firstthing I think about it was
Cersei's Walk of Shame.
But that's not until the end ofSeason 5.
Speaker 4 (50:23):
Yeah, yeah, that's not until the end of Season 5.
Yeah, yeah, that's why I saidmy ooh, because I was like
that's not expected.
Yeah, we're very excited tocontinue our coverage of Game of
Thrones Season 3.
To keep up with the podcast andeverything related to George's
world, be sure to follow us onInstagram at
dancingwith__dragons and, ofcourse, be sure to add, listen
and download our episodes onyour preferred listening
platforms.
And give us a rating and areview or a comment as well, if
(50:45):
you get the chance.
Truly appreciate it and thankyou for listening to this
episode of the podcast.
oh, ladies answer.
It is my honor to present mygrandmother, the lady olena of
house tarantula kiss me, child.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
It's so good of you to visit me in my foolish flock
of hens.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
Very sorry for your losses and I was sorry when I
heard of lord renly's death hewas very gallant.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Gallant and charming and very clean.
He knew how to dress and smileand somehow this gave him the
notion he was fit to be king.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Renly was brave and gentle Grandmother, Father liked
him, and so did Loras.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Loras is young and very good at knocking men off
horses with a stick.
That does not make him wise, asdo your fathead father make him
wise, as do your fathead father, grandmother.
What will Sansa think of us she?
Speaker 4 (00:51):
might think we have some wits about us One of us, at
any rate.
Hello everyone, and welcome toDancing with Dragons, your go-to
podcast for everything relatedto Game of Thrones, house of the
Dragon and the rest of GeorgeRR Martin's A Song of Ice and
Fire universe.
My name is Minwa and I'm herewith my co-host, tony, and we're
here today continuing our recapof Game of Thrones, season 3.
(01:13):
Today we're diving into Episode2, dark Wings, dark Words.
The episode first aired onApril 7, 2013.
It is directed by DanielMinahan, who directed the season
three premiere, valar Dohaeris,as well as three episodes of
season one A Golden Crown, youWin or you Die, and the Pointy
End All great episodes and theepisode is written by Vanessa
Taylor, who is the co-executiveproducer of seasons two and
(01:34):
three of the show and who alsowrote two episodes of season two
, the Old Gods and the New, andGarden of Bones.
She was also later nominatedfor an Oscar for Best Original
Screenplay for the Shape ofWater, which won Best Picture.
So it's an episode with a verytalented team behind it and it's
a very great episode as well.
Just to quickly recap whathappens in the episode, robb
Stark learns that Winterfell isdestroyed by the Ironborn and
(01:55):
that Bran and Rickon havedisappeared.
Brienne of Tarth continuesescorting Jaime Lannister to
King's Landing, sansa meets theTyrells, arya runs into the
Brotherhood without banners andJon Snow struggles to earn Mance
Rayder's trust as the Night'sWatch returns to the Wall.
The episode title is aninteresting one as well Dark
Wings, dark Words.
It's not a very obvious orfamous reference to Song of Ice
(02:15):
and Fire, but in the universe ofthe show and the books it is an
old saying about messengerravens, referring to the fact
that such urgently deliveredmessages are often bad news.
In the episode we see suchurgent stravens as Robb receives
news of the death of HosterTully, as well as the sack of
Winterfell and thedisappearances of Bran and
Rickon.
So that pretty much sums up theepisode in a nutshell.
I can't wait to dive into itbecause it's an episode that's
(02:39):
expertly written, with so manyexcellent character moments,
things for us to dissect, diveinto and talk about.
It's one of those episodeswhere it makes you kind of
reminisce on how great the showcan be when they take their time
and really include thoughtfullythose moments that build the
universe and everyone that youknow and the dynamics between
them.
So I can't wait to talk aboutit.
(02:59):
And how are you, tony?
Speaker 5 (03:02):
I'm sure you're excited to talk about this one
as well.
To me, this episode felt like apart two of the premiere,
because we're catching up witheverybody with the remainder.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
Yeah, that's valid.
Speaker 5 (03:10):
And this episode.
It kind of focuses onintroductions and
reintroductions and reallyfocuses on magic, especially
with Bran and the concepts ofwarging, with people with the
sight, and I do want to juststart with that and we can start
with the episode up north, notbeyond the wall, they haven't
(03:32):
reached the wall yet but withHodor, osha, bran and the two
direwolves.
It's always nice to see twodirewolves on screen.
Yeah, this is really done.
You know it's summer.
And Shaggy Wolf.
Yeah, this episode is jampacked with introductions to
very important characters and Ithink we should just start with
whose name is Jojen Reed andMira Reed, and Reed sounds
(03:55):
familiar of a last name.
That's because they're the kidsof Howlin Reed, who was Vassal
of the Starks and probably Ned'sbest friend other than Robert,
or most loyal friend.
Actually, before you respond tothat, I do want to say that
unfortunately there's noDaenerys in this episode.
So sad face, yeah unfortunately.
(04:16):
No Stannis and no small councilfrom King's Landing and no Tywin
.
Okay.
Speaker 4 (04:21):
I'm happy with those.
Speaker 5 (04:22):
Yeah, and I do want to note a quick note that we't
uh talk about in the lastepisode is that in the opening
sequence, winterfell is depictedwith smoke and flames because
it was recently sacked andburned down by the gray droids,
but really it was the boltonsthat put it to the torch to jump
off what you said about bran.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
um, actually I forgot to include him in my little
synopsis, so sorry, but it'snice that we're starting the
episode with him to make up forthat.
Speaker 5 (04:50):
And boy did the author grow up.
He looks so much older fromseason two.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
He does, he does.
I mean this is like Brangrowing up right Like by the
time we see him in season eighthe's like a man.
Speaker 5 (05:01):
Anyway, okay, let's start episode two of season
three, dark Wings, dark Words.
The episode opens with Brandreaming of the first time we
saw him in the series.
It's kind of a carefree momentOne of the last times the whole
Stark family was together whenhe was practicing his archery.
We even hear Ned's voicebriefly, which makes you so
(05:22):
nostalgic.
From the pilot, like from thepremiere episode which feels
fitting, because this episodefeatures all his children, like
every all the star children arein this episode.
I do want to ask you a quickquestion because I couldn't find
it anywhere.
Um brand wakes up from hisdream and then osha says you're
having one of your black magicdreams.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
I don't like black magic like and I don't know she
was meaning blood magic, becauseI couldn't find any reference
to black magic dreams if you'retrying to find, like the canon,
or continuity for the exact term, I would just say that the best
explanation I could come upwith is just the fact that osha,
you know she's like maybe it'sjust like a word among the
(06:04):
common folk to describe darkmagic as love magic as uh black
magic, black magic yeah, it's avery uh, like real life word
that we use, that you know, inour world, like I don't know
about you, but like that's whatI got, like magic sometimes,
like that's just how it is.
so I would assume that maybe inthe North, like they're not as
(06:25):
familiar with magic, so that'swhat they would just call it,
like black magic, you know,instead of direct relating it to
blood magic.
Maybe they don't know that hasto do with, maybe there are
different forms of it.
I didn't look into that, to behonest.
That's just my on-the-spotexplanation for that.
Speaker 5 (06:42):
I mean, we see a lot of stuff beyond the wall that
you know.
They have wargs, they have allthat stuff.
We meet a warg up there, awildling warg, uh, and we'll
talk about him in a bit.
Like I mentioned, we meet jojenand mira.
Um, they're actually introducedmuch earlier in the novels, in
the book, uh, clash of kings.
They come to to winterfell as aguest and, uh, they're actually
(07:04):
there when theon attacks thecastle and they escape with
brand.
So the reason why they werepushed to season three is that
dan and dave decided that itwould have been too much to
introduce these characters inseason two.
Speaker 4 (07:19):
I think that was a good idea yeah, I feel like, um,
if they were kind of around tojust add to the context of how
the reed family are like vassalsof House Stark and how they
have rich history, just, butit's not necessarily needed Now,
it just it does kind of feellike they're just random
characters that appeared out ofnowhere.
But you know, like they didexplain that they were actively
(07:39):
looking for Bran because theyshare the same power, right.
So at least there's like someexplanation.
But I think that the books, howit is in the books, does kind
of make a bit more sense, justto keep in line with the history
of their houses.
Speaker 5 (07:54):
The Jojen is what they call a powerful and natural
born greenseer.
He could receive glimpses ofthe past, present and future in
his visions, and he talks tobrand when they meet about he
saw his father's death.
Interesting note from the bookis that georgian tells brand
that he had a green dream abouta winged wolf bound to earth
(08:15):
with the great stone chains.
A three-eyed crow was trying topeck through the chains, but
the stone was too hard and hisbeak could only chip at them.
Georgian explains that Bran isthe chain-winged wolf and the
crow sent the reeds to break hischains.
Mira said that when her brothertold their father about the
dream, he sent them toWinterfell for that purpose.
Speaker 4 (08:38):
This is a very magical-filled episode and I
think unfortunately I didn'twrite the exact quotes in my
notes, but like I just wrote,like the like, the gist of it.
But towards the end Jojen sayswhat matters the most Like I
think it just means like ingeneral is Bran.
So I think that that's veryinteresting, because I would
(08:58):
assume that Jojen at this pointsaw end of season eight and
that's you know, that's whyhe's's like I see you and you're
the most important thing,period, and I can't tell you
that.
So when I rewatched that sceneI was like, oh, he saw season 8,
that's it.
As Jojen keeps being mysteriousin the show, it's just
something to look out for.
(09:19):
Like oh, it was here referringto this or that, because I don't
really remember Jojen the onlything I remember is that he
played drums and love actuallyin the ending oh, yeah, yeah, I
can't unsee him as that littlekid like.
Speaker 5 (09:32):
Yeah uh, okay.
So let's uh stay north, butlet's go beyond and go and with
uh, john and uh, I want to sayjohn and the night's watch.
Uh, let's talk about John andMance Rayder.
I love that Mance Rayder.
He's still sniffing out ifJohn's you know, a double agent,
you know, and he tries toexplain to John.
(09:54):
Look, you know how hard it isto get all these he doesn't want
to say savages and he had tokind of figure out a way to get
them together.
But here he explains how he didit.
Speaker 6 (10:11):
You liked him, I like you.
But if you're playing thisfalse, it won't be hard for me
to kill you.
I've got wild in blood in myveins.
These are my people.
I understand.
Well.
How could you understand?
You want to protect your people.
Do you know what it takes tounite 90 clans, half of whom
want to massacre the other halffor one insult or another?
They speak seven differentlanguages.
(10:32):
In my army, the Fens hate theHornfoots.
The Hornfoots hate the IceRiver clans.
Everyone hates the cave people.
So you know how I got moonworshippers and cannibals and
giants to march together in thesame army.
No, I told them we were allgoing to die if we don't get
(10:53):
south, because that's the truth.
Speaker 5 (10:57):
I want to learn more about the moon worshippers and
what's the deal with the cavepeople.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
I'm sure there's a some info we can find there oh,
definitely, george has everylike nook and cranny of us a
world like written and plannedout, so maybe one day that's an
episode for another day so Ithink it's estimated.
Speaker 5 (11:16):
They never say the number but I think in the future
seasons uh, it was estimatedlike there was over a hundred
thousand wildlings together, butthat that was just a brief
scene of them talking.
And then we're introduced to auh work from, like I said, a
wildling war.
His character's name is oraland actually he was killed.
(11:38):
This character was killed inthe clash of kings novel.
He and eager with two of thethree watchers that corn half
hands party okay encounter.
So uh, the third wiling wasslain but but the part of oro
spirit remained in his eagle.
So technically he should notappear in the third season but
he lives on in his working as aneagle.
(11:59):
But the tv character or I, wasmore of a splice with another
war character in the book calledVaramir Sixkin.
Speaker 4 (12:07):
I know that they probably couldn't have done it,
but it would be cool to see aneagle that has the spirit of a
human.
But I know that it would havebeen very hard for them to
communicate that that's what wasgoing on.
It probably would have openedup a can of worms worms for uh
theories and other other likepossibilities for the show I do
want to do an episode in thefuture about just it's going to
(12:29):
be titled worry because it'skind of it's just really
fascinating about working.
I want to say, um, that's it's.
It's kind of bugged me in a waythat they had john not know
what's working is becausecorrect me if I'm wrong, but
isn't he like a warg in thebooks, like by now, like he, he
did his right, like I, just Ijust had to like triple check
(12:50):
because he is, and that's whatthe storks are known for.
And the fact that they had johnasked that's kind of just I
don't know.
It's like if there was somecreative choice there of having
john be unfamiliar with itbecause he was like the
illegitimate child and then they, they told the others to learn
about it.
I think that would have beenkind of okay, but it's just too
much and I just wish that hejust knew what it was, because
(13:10):
it's more in line with hislineage and it should have made
more sense.
So, yeah, I just got like it'sa tiny dislike about the episode
they all have the ability to doit.
Speaker 5 (13:20):
I don't remember when he does it.
I I'm really bad at remembering.
I could read something and fiveminutes later, I just forget.
So.
When uh they ask, uh man'sinterrupts orals, uh warging,
and ask what he sees, he seesthe fist of the first man and he
sees dead crows.
And that transitions us to samand the night's watch going back
(13:41):
south, and this is just like areally fast scene of Sam being
bullied again.
We've gone back to when hefirst joined the Night's Watch
and he just has one major bullyand that's name is Rast.
The only thing that I foundfunny and ironic is that this
character, rast, keeps callingSam piggy.
Oh hey, rast, just a quicklittle thing.
(14:04):
People who live in glass housesshouldn't throw stones.
Let's go to the riverlands andyou spoke about the ravens
bringing news and before rusebolton shows up with the ravens,
rob is there looking handsome,like you know.
You know how he looks.
No, sorry, and you have tolisten, I'm over to this is
(14:30):
saying that her mom always meanttold her that you know, people
from westeros are like stink andare savages.
And it's funny because it's theopposite westeros.
You say that people from acrossthe narrow sea are savages.
Savages is just hurled at one.
Another right but interestingnote is that roost calls talissa
queen and I thought that wasinteresting it's just gross,
(14:52):
like you know, showing that he'son their side uh, but I think
this, this episode for rob isagain.
He's being to me.
In this episode we see thegrowing resentment that uh car
star cast towards rob.
Just keeps he's becoming amalcontent.
He's questioning everythinglike why are we doing this?
This is stupid.
This is your king.
(15:12):
If he tells you to jump, youjust do it.
You don't question it.
The one thing that Karstarkdoes is drop a truth bomb or he
foreshadows Rob's demise.
Is that Rob says you don'tthink we can win this war?
Karstark replies may I speak mymind, your grace?
Rob says have you not beenspeaking your mind, Lord
(15:34):
Karstark?
Speaker 4 (15:36):
And then he says you lost this war the day you
married her, referring toTalissa.
I mean it's like a mic dropmoment from Stark and Obey, like
a brutal honesty right.
Speaker 5 (15:46):
Yes, something that.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
Rob does not want to hear, but it's true, isn't it
Like it is true?
Speaker 5 (15:52):
Yeah, if Rob was another guy who wasn't, I mean,
rob is his father's son, hewants to be honorable.
He's not going to be awomanizer like a like a robert,
like robert would have been likeokay to listen.
You come with me, you're goingto be my mistress, you're going
to be my little in my side girl.
Well, I have to get I have toget married to this fray, but
(16:12):
don't worry about I'll be withyou all the time.
I just have to go over thereand check on her once in a while
.
Uh, and that's it.
But, rob, as I know I I we hadintimate relations.
I have to marry you.
That that's just the honorablething to do.
That's one of those things thatwe can also discuss.
When did rob lose the war?
Speaker 4 (16:30):
it was like I don't want to call it the first
mistake, but like it was the key, I guess, mistake.
Because you know, by marryingher he basically threw away the
opportunity for marriagealliances and he ordered like
any other ones.
You know, like maybe if it wassomeone stronger than the phrase
, then the phrase would havebeen okay with it, like there
may have been some room there,but you know he married like a
(16:51):
nobody from Essos, so it's notsitting well with anybody in
Westeros.
And you know you said somethingabout the fact that you know he
wants to keep his word andstuff.
Soros, and you know you saidsomething about the fact that
you know he wants to keep hisword and stuff.
And that's like the fact thathe didn't keep his word and
didn't keep his word.
Mary Frager shows that like hemight not be his father's son.
Speaker 5 (17:17):
His bannermen are starting to doubt him as well,
because he didn't keep his wordand also because of the Jamie
incident and everything that'shappened.
So it's just like you know allthese it's like a perfect storm
of's happened.
It's just like a perfect storm.
Speaker 4 (17:22):
Yes, it's like a hurricane of everything wrong
just happening.
Speaker 5 (17:25):
I want to do a little callback on us.
When we talked about MichelleFarrelly and how she's a great
actress and one of her bestmoments and we've come to that
moment and when she has anadmission of guilt to Talisa and
she talks about how she wasmean to John.
But I think the scene is sopowerful and so beautifully
(17:47):
acted by her that, other thanthe red wedding, is probably her
best scene of the whole series.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
I agree.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Many years before that one of the boys came down
with the box.
Mr Lewin said if he made itthrough the night he'd live, but
it would be a very long night.
So I sat with him all throughthe darkness, Listened to his
rugged little breath, hiscoughing, his whimpering.
(18:30):
Which boy?
John Snow?
When my husband brought thatbaby home from the war, I
couldn't bear to look at him.
I didn't want to see thosebrown stranger's eyes staring
off at me.
So I prayed to the gods Takehim away, make him die.
He got the pox and I knew I wasthe worst woman who ever lived.
(18:55):
A murderer, a murderer.
I'd condemned this poor,innocent child to a horrible
death, all because I was jealousof his mother, a woman he
didn't even know.
So I prayed to all seven godsLet the boy live.
(19:17):
Let him live and I'll love him.
I'll be a mother to him.
I'll beg my husband to give hima true name, to call him Stark
and be done with it, to make himone of us.
And he lived, and he lived and Icouldn't keep my promise.
(19:44):
And everything that's happenedsince then, all this horror
that's come to my family, it'sall because I couldn't love a
motherless child it's one ofthose uh what if?
Speaker 5 (20:06):
questions.
What if she did keep herpromise?
Speaker 4 (20:09):
I don't think that's an interesting what's if.
But yeah, I I don't think shecould have either because she
can't.
Speaker 5 (20:16):
Her honor would have been too much to be like.
I cannot raise this child as myown.
When you are unfaithful, that'sa heartbreaking scene.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
Yeah, sorry, I want to comment on the cat thing so
badly, but when you talked aboutthe honor in relation to this,
it made me think that Nedprobably did have his reputation
tainted because of John.
I mean, now it makes me wonderif, even though I said what I
(20:45):
said about Rob and how this is,like I know it's more acceptable
having an legitimate childrather than marrying an SOC,
like it just makes me wonder ifthere was some way where it
could have been forgotten andforgiven.
I just, I guess to them it'sjust it's worse marrying an SOC
rather than I'm sorry, I know,know, associate might not be the
right the night, they're notthe right word, but to them
(21:05):
that's probably worse than anintimate child.
If rob had one by now theyprobably wouldn't care, but but
anyways, um, yeah, about, aboutcat.
Just to go back to the scene, Ithink that, as you said, it's
one of her strongest.
It's her strongest scene,actually in the entire show, as
you said, um, and I love that.
It's a scene where you know weget this character.
That's good, you know, like thesharks are good, they're good
(21:26):
people, they're on the rightside and everything, but there's
still some darkness there,which is why and we love game of
thrones all of them are kind ofgray hair characters and it's a
very dark side to cat becauseshe she recognizes it herself,
the fact that she's dark and shecan't love a motherless child,
even when she frames it in themost sad way she can't bring
(21:47):
herself to do that.
It's just so sad and dark andgrey, but also I think it's
powerful as a scene in Wildressand I like it, other than the
fact that I don't approve of herdoing what she did to John.
Speaker 5 (22:02):
It's deeply humanizing and, uh, complex it's
.
It sheds a light on, like, herstruggle and, with grief and
resentment, like makes her morethan just a protective mother
but a woman that's kind ofstruggling with the weight of
the past regrets and pastmistakes, and I think just it's
(22:23):
so good, I mean.
And then you have the starkmusic in the background, yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:28):
And then it's cuts.
It's cuts to John, like lookingso sad in the in the in the
North, so it just it gets to you.
And when I mentioned earlier onthe episode that this episode
has so many great charactermoments, this is what I mean.
Like this is a defining momentfor Kat in the entire series.
Speaker 5 (22:45):
This is right now at the top of scene of the episode.
Yeah, let's quickly go to TheonGreyjoy.
Last time we saw him was inWinterfell, and we see him again
.
And this is the beginning ofTheon's journey into becoming
reek, which is crazy, I think.
When you're reading the bookshe just completely disappears,
(23:07):
right, and you're like, yeah, hefinally shows up and like I
think the fourth or fifth book.
And then so this person ishaving a pov and you're like who
is this?
And then you slowly figure outthat this is theon.
The torment that he's enduredin ramsay's hand is so extreme,
even though he's madequestionable choices, obviously,
(23:28):
and we can't overlook hisportrayal to the starks.
It's just does any persondeserve that kind of
dehumanization or torture?
And you know what I mean thecruelty, you know, it's just so.
It's so weird because at firstyou're like, yes, they call him,
let's see.
But then you begin to seewhat's done to him.
You're like he needs apsychologist really quick to
(23:51):
help him.
That's bad.
I mean, it's really.
Speaker 4 (23:53):
I mean this is just the beginning I, I have to be
honest, like I could barelywatch it, I I fast forwarded
through the theon scenes becauseit's too much, I can't do that.
I don't have it in me to towatch this again.
I have to be honest, I can't.
I'm not doing it Like I'mbarely doing it.
I'm watching it like on liketwo X speed.
I can't do it.
I can't, I can't.
Speaker 5 (24:16):
Funny because I watched the episode twice.
I texted you yesterday and Isaid, yeah, I watched it a few
days ago but I was really tiredand I kept falling asleep, not
because it's not good, but I wasjust really tired.
And then yesterday I actuallysat down and watched it on my
computer and just kind of takingnotes, and I go, man, I don't
remember this scene, so I musthave slept through the torture.
(24:37):
I didn't watch it.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
Let's go to king's landing and I think please let's
move on, let's go, let's leavethe torture.
Speaker 5 (24:45):
And, uh, let's go to shay, and I think last week we
talked about shay's.
You asked me a question, do youdo?
I think shay is being genuineand with her, uh, what was the
word?
Speaker 4 (24:56):
concerns over sansa kind.
Speaker 5 (24:57):
Yes, exactly, he said it perfectly her concerns and I
think this episode proves thatshe's actually trying to look
out for Sansa At this point.
Sansa is growing, but she'sstill very naive when it comes
to the real world of what she'sstill thinking.
Well, Littlefinger's not inlove with me, he's too old.
She doesn't realize that thatdoes not matter in this world.
Speaker 4 (25:20):
Yeah, yeah, she's, I think, like letting go of the.
Like it's the last bit of hernaivety, like her naiveness,
like it's the last bit of itthat we see here.
Speaker 5 (25:30):
And Shay is that that person from she's?
She's introducing street smart.
This is how the other peoplelive.
We don't have.
You know, you live basically alife of royalty, not with
Winterfell, but she's.
You know she's the daughter ofa lord, which is the closest
thing as a.
(25:50):
You know you get as a princesswithout being a princess.
So I think every passing scenewe get more and more you can see
that Shay is actually lookingout for her.
Speaker 4 (26:01):
Yeah, I think it felt quite authentic in this scene.
Like I'm really interested inseeing how the whole Shea
storyline will play out.
I know that you have yourfeelings about her and the
actress and stuff, but I feellike I just really am keeping an
eye on her because I want toreally dig into her interactions
with everybody because you know, know, obviously we know how
(26:22):
she's going to end up and what'sgoing to happen later on.
So I'm keeping it in my mindevery time I see her on screen.
So that's why I kind of doubtedher, uh, or I want to keep it
in mind with the premiere andwhy I kept mine now and I just
think that at least maybe, um,her relationship with Sansa
shows that she wasn't this likehorrible person, like she was
(26:42):
being authentic, she was lookingout for her and, even though we
will hate her, like at least itshows that she did some good
during her time in King'sLanding, like she wasn't just
there to plot and scheme and youknow, and like betray someone
or whatever.
She was there, like she wasactually looking out for someone
and cared about someone there.
So it like redeems parts of hercharacter and and, yeah, I'm
(27:04):
just gonna keep keep an eye onher.
Every time we see her, just tohave more thoughts on her and
let's stay with.
Speaker 5 (27:12):
She has a scene with tyrian later on and it's one of
those actually a funny scene,not like a laugh out loud moment
, but it's very cute.
They're having this little spatbecause he says something like
sansa's very beautiful and ofcourse you know he says
something like sansa's just whowouldn't want to be with her, or
(27:33):
she's just so something to thateffect and she gets.
I don't know if she gets upset,but it's playful and it is an
example of uh, of it's veryrelatable because you can see
that argument between a coupleand like a rom-com or something,
uh, I mean, who hasn'texperienced that?
Let's go back to sansa, becauseI'm jumping all over the place
(27:56):
with sansa.
So, so Loras comes to pick upSansa because Margaery wants to
have lunch with her or some kindof date.
Sansa's looking in the mirrormaking sure everything's perfect
.
She's so giddy because she'sreally nice to Loras Poor thing.
I mean they would makebeautiful babies.
Speaker 4 (28:24):
I mean, yeah, she was , they would, would, and she was
smitten, I guess.
But I mean, we see it, we seethe illusion fade instantly,
don't you, don't you think?
Speaker 5 (28:29):
yeah, because she's like oh, you don't remember me,
you gave me the flower he goes.
He wasn't really thinking aboutgirls, yeah he's thinking about
.
Speaker 4 (28:37):
Really, he said something like of course I did
and she was like, of course Idid and she was like, of course
you did, like what I wasn't, youknow like the girl that you've
been secretly admiring orsomething.
So just it's instantly phasedin.
You can see kind of herexpression drop, which I just
think is so uh, like that wasfunny to see.
But as we see with sansa, asher time or like her storyline
(28:58):
progresses slowly, slowly, likethe just scene by scene, episode
by episode, like the clamor oflife, and everything just fades,
you know like the rose-coloredglasses fades away, episode by
episode, and there's barelyanything left now.
If anything, it was maybe justDoris.
Speaker 5 (29:16):
Well, at the beginning of this episode we
hear the introduction of OlennaTyrell, so let's talk about that
.
I want to say one thing abouther.
She's one of the mostcaptivating, sharp-tongued
characters in the show.
I mean, her wit is legendary,she's formidable, she's
strategic.
I mean she knows how to playthe game, she's cunning and has
(29:38):
a complete disregard for theniceties you expect from a noble
woman.
She's just straight to thepoint and I just love her.
I love her.
Speaker 4 (29:47):
I love her too and that's the thing that I love
when we get a good TV in general.
Her introduction, her scenethat we included earlier in our
podcast episode, this episode ofthe introduction it's kind of
like a perfect characterintroduction for a TV, one of
the great ones, I guess, in theshow, because we see her and we
(30:09):
immediately know what type ofperson she is and we immediately
love her and we immediately seethat she's different than
everybody who's already seen itin the show.
So she comes in as like abreath of fresh air and
immediately captivates us andmakes us love.
Love her because you know shecomes in and the first thing
that she says, I think, is kissme, child.
And she gives her hand, sendsus a kiss.
Like what type of person wouldsay that?
(30:29):
Like that's a sassy grandma,you know what I mean?
Like I love that.
And she just says everythingoutright.
You know, in a show whereeveryone is being so like
political and like diplomaticand saying things in very
flowery language, like notsaying what they mean, she just
said everything very bluntly,very directly, and we really
love her for that, because noone else on the show is like
(30:50):
that.
She says you know my son is aponderous oaf, and my husband as
well Like she's real and she'sfunny and it's just such a scene
stealer, and it's the perfectcharacter introduction, I think,
for her.
Speaker 5 (31:03):
She's amazing.
Sansa has been so close-lippedfor so long.
She doesn't really want to talkever, and the first time she
just says what she's thinking.
And the truth is right here.
Because Olenna's like just talk, she wants to know about
Joffrey.
Olenna's like, just talk, shewants to know about Joffrey.
And I was thinking in my headwhen I was watching this episode
.
I said, wow, this was thebeginning of the end for Joffrey
(31:25):
.
Right here, half the Sazastells her.
Speaker 4 (31:28):
Yeah, you know, as you said, it's the beginning of
the end of Joffrey, and I thinkthat's right.
Then in there there was likethis quick.
Speaker 5 (31:38):
Well, let's listen in here.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Are you frightened child?
No need for that.
We're only women here.
Tell us the truth, no harm willcome to you.
My father always told the truth.
Yes, he had that reputation andthey named him traitor and took
his head.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
Joffrey.
Joffrey did that.
He promised he would bemerciful and he cut my father's
head off and he said that wasmercy.
He took me up on the walls andmade me look at it.
Go on, I can't.
(32:24):
I never meant my father was atraitor.
My brother as well.
I have traitor's blood.
Please don't make me say anymore.
She's terrified.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Grandmother Just look at her.
Speak freely, child.
We would never betray yourconfidence, I swear it.
He's a monster.
Ah, that's a pity.
Please don't stop the wedding.
Have no fear, the Lord Oath ofHighgarden is determined that
(32:54):
Margaery shall be queen.
Even so, we thank you for thetruth.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
When Sansa said he's a monster, he goes yeah what a
pity like she wasn't like oh mygod, marjorie, what are we gonna
do?
Speaker 4 (33:10):
she's like what a pity yeah, that's exactly what
I'm saying, like it's not a pitythat.
Oh, it's a pity, he's just,he's a monster.
No, it's like, oh, it's a pitythat I'm gonna have to kill him
then, like you could see it inher face, like if you're
listening, uh, dear listeners,go back and re-watch that scene.
It's just a minute on youtube.
It's so clear in her face.
And then she follows that upwith saying like oh no, but like
(33:31):
the oaf of high garden,referring to her own son, she
was like he, he's determinedthat marjorie is queen, but
didn't say it's a witch king.
You know, like I'm 100% surethat's at that point, like
that's it.
They already had the plan.
It's just a matter of likesticking its house until they're
able to do it until the wedding.
Yeah, I wish that scene waslike it's so good, but with the
(33:54):
music.
So I just wish it was a bitlonger and we got more of it,
because it's so good, but yeah.
Speaker 5 (34:01):
I mean, I think when you look at the scene that's
just like half.
I think the whole scene withthe introduction is close to
five minutes, I think.
Speaker 4 (34:12):
I can have more of it .
I love it so much.
And a small detail I love thatthey included in this scene is
Sansa's love for lemon cakes andthe fact that Elena knows this.
So it's is Sansa's love forlemon cakes and the fact that
Olenna knows this.
So it's like Sansa has areputation for loving lemon
cakes.
In Westeros they prepared itfor her already, you know, at
the tea party, so it's reallygood.
I'm with Sansa.
Lemon cakes are really good.
It's a nice little Easter egg.
(34:33):
It's a widely known fact thatSansa loves lemon cakes.
Speaker 5 (34:36):
All right.
So we're going gonna stay inking's landing, we're gonna do
joffrey with cersei and thenwe'll go to marjorie and joffrey
.
Last week we had the dinnerscene with marjorie, joffrey,
loris and cersei and I thoughtit was really funny.
Because we just see cersei,just her blood is boiling
because she cannot standmarjorie and this episode.
(34:57):
Joffrey is being fitted forsome kind of outfit.
Cersei does not fail to dig inand shoot little insults to
Margaery.
On the side he's giving alittle piece of cloth.
I mean it's little, it's like asepal cloth.
This is what's gonna look likeand it was like a flowery.
He goes, no flowers.
Cersei goes and says we can usethat for Margaery's gown.
(35:18):
It's more than enough fabric.
Oh, so funny, so sassy so sassy.
Speaker 4 (35:27):
I I love these like moments.
I think game of thrones.
I said it a couple of times nowit's a comedy when you, when
you, when you want to see it asa company, it can be a comedy.
Speaker 5 (35:35):
It's so funny but she also says you know, we can't,
basically we can't trust her.
Like what's the deal with herbeing with the all these
lowborns and stuff like that?
She cares about them and he'slike I don't care about them.
So so it's like he's she'strying she's still trying to
manipulate him.
Kind of scary that everyepisode he's feeling more and
more disdain towards his mother.
Like everything she saysbothers him.
(35:57):
Like she's trying to explainstuff to him and he's just like
it's like the most boringconversation ever.
Yeah, it's most boringconversation ever.
Speaker 4 (36:05):
Like yeah, it's, it's bugging him but he can't help.
But like fall prey to like youknow, let's fall prey.
That sounds like a bit weirdbut it's.
It's fine because it's Cersei.
But like believe hurts, it'slike just some extent because
that just like informs how hetreats Marge during the later
scene.
Like okay, like he's havingthis growing like disdain for
her.
It's still like resonating withhim on some level.
(36:26):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 5 (36:27):
Like like it's still working, cersei's words are
still kind of working that's Ithink let's stick with joffrey,
because I think this marjoriescene with him is outstanding,
because we get, uh, joffrey, whois so smitten with her, he's
all my lady, my this veryflowery with her, and this one
he's kind of giving her thethird degree of asking her what
(36:49):
were you doing with Renly?
How can you be with Renly?
I just once he starts diggingin with like really hard
questions for her what's thename of Natalie Dormer?
Is that her name?
Speaker 4 (37:00):
Dormer, dormer.
Speaker 5 (37:01):
Dormer.
Yes, sorry, natalie, you cancome on the show and I'll
apologize.
You can see the realization onher face that this is a
different Joffrey that she'sseeing.
His tone and demeanor aredifferent and she instantly
turns into this frail.
And she's very naive Like thispoor little woman.
Oh, woe is me.
(37:22):
I do want to mention thatRenly's sexuality is brought up
a whole bunch in this episode.
I don't know if you noticed, Imean it's brought up by Cersei,
it's brought up by Joffrey, it'sbrought up by Jaime.
At the end I'm jumpingeverywhere.
Sorry he mentions that he wantsto make Renly's perversion
punishable by death.
And you can see Margaery's face.
My brother would be put todeath if found out.
(37:45):
Her face is straight as anarrow.
She goes um.
Speaker 4 (37:48):
You do whatever you need to do like she's like
navigating this conversation ina way to like to make it as safe
as possible for her but alsojust to like steer clear of
anything.
We talk a lot like about howmarjorie is so clever, and I
think that we really see it inthis scene.
I think the scene also happensafter the sound, so when where
she kind of has it's in the backof her mind that you know he's
(38:09):
a monster and everything so likethat's why I think she was also
very prepared on like how tosteer the conversation with that
in her mind.
She knows not to like play withfire or say anything.
She knows.
Okay, go, go and say the safestthing you know, like like fluff
him up, make him feel goodabout himself.
Just as long as it's not, theattention isn't on you and the
(38:31):
conversation is actually a verydangerous and frightening one
because he like greets her witha crossbow.
He's saying that he's going togo on a hunting trip, but the
crossbow is pointed at her thewhole time, like for most of it,
at least in the beginning, Iguess that's how he greets her.
It's not just that.
(38:51):
I think he was interrogatingher, he was threatening her Like
.
This is a very frighteningsituation for her, especially
after the Sansa thing.
The episode then ends with themkind of pointing the crossbow
together at the mirror, likeit's a very excellent shot where
you see it from kind of likethe mirror's point of view, like
from their perspective, lookingat the mirror, and they're
holding the crossbow atthemselves.
And the way that I kind ofinterpreted it, that scene, like
the visual meaning of it, isthe fact that she's kind of like
(39:13):
killing a part of herself inorder to survive.
Do you know what I mean?
Like that's kind of like how Iread that image, because she
can't show who she is anymore toJoffrey.
She has to always like presentherself with a mask and she does
that.
You can, you can argue like shehas been doing that and
presenting herself as like thebubbly Marjorie Tyrell.
(39:33):
Any bit of that has to like besecondary.
Now the first thing is survival.
So that's how I kind ofinterpreted the ending of that
scene and, um, like her, her andJoffrey kind of standing
together is kind of like how sheto mesh with him and get a part
of herself.
That's just how I interpretthis.
I could be reading too muchinto it, but I think that's I
don't know.
(39:53):
Framing that scene in that wayhad to have meant something, and
that's what I interpreted.
Interpreted it as, and I wantto know more of your thoughts on
the scene I.
Speaker 5 (40:02):
What I got out of is that marjorie now knows that
joffrey is drawn to violence andlike shock value.
So, while pretending to beinnocent, she adds like a little
bit of darkness to make himlook down on renly like, oh yeah
, you know he was, so you know Itry to make a child to him.
And blah, blah, blah he.
He wanted to do somethingforbidden and she kept kept
(40:25):
putting Renly down.
So in doing this she'sbasically fueling his twisted
desires.
You know even more, sansa'syoung.
She doesn't play the game, butshe was always constantly afraid
.
She couldn't handle Joffrey.
Even Cersei is now unsure on howto control this freaking
monster that she's raised, butMargaery, on the other hand, she
(40:45):
knows how to communicate andmanipulate this guy that she's
going to marry.
So while other people try toflatter him or make him follow
their lead, she understands thathe wants somebody who is going
to share his twisted view of theworld, and her way to get into
him is not by seduction, becausethat's not going to work.
(41:07):
He's not really into sex at all.
We've learned that in seasontwo when he had those women
brought to him.
And what did he do?
Instead of doing what thenormal person does?
He tortures them.
So she's far too smart to winover Joffrey with her sexuality,
as she does with any other man,and if I was a Joffrey I would
(41:28):
have just handed over thekingdom to her within one look
and I'm like whatever you wantme to do, that's fine, sorry.
Speaker 4 (41:37):
And then you make fun of me for saying majestic once.
Speaker 5 (41:41):
I'll take that out so my wife can't hear it.
That's good, but when I seethis scene, it's the more the
when I see this scene it's themore.
When I see the scene withmarjorie, the more and more I
love seeing her play this gameand I just love her as a
character.
Prior to seeing this uh seasonwith the podcast, we're doing
like marjorie wasn't in my scopeof all favorite characters.
(42:04):
Now that I'm like focusing andwe're deep diving, I don't know,
I feel like she's just she canplay the game.
Uh, one little note before wemove on.
This crossbow scene is not inthe books, it's just something
written for the show.
So, uh, for adding this scenebecause it's one of the best.
Let's move back north to almostwhere the riverlands are.
(42:25):
I think they're close tothere's aa, gendry and Hot Pie.
Speaker 4 (42:28):
They're still like on the run from Harrenhal with
their swords and Gendry kind ofteases her about like, oh, you
could have ended the war becausenow they know who she is, you
know it's not the secrets andshe tells them what Jack and
Hagar, and so he's like youcould have ended the war, like
you could have told him to killTywin, joffrey, whoever.
And she's just like I did whatI could and like it is a very
(42:51):
like popular topic amongst Gameof Thrones fans.
It's also like a humanizingflaw, I guess, or like a
humanizing mistake that she did.
She comes up with the idea ofgoing to Riverrun because she
knows that's her grandfather'sand that's what she tells them.
But then they end up meetingthe Brotherhood Without Banners,
which is like this outlaw group, for lack of a better word.
Speaker 5 (43:10):
Yeah, this group was initially created by soldiers
and sent by Eddard Stark.
Remember he sent BericDondarrion to hunt down the
mountain.
It's like guerrilla warfare.
So their soldiers grew and grewand grew after the War of the
Five Kings and their focus isprotecting the common folk from
all sides of the conflict.
And every member is knighted byBeric.
(43:32):
We don't see him in thisepisode I think we'll get to see
him in the next one but we domeet a fascinating and awesome
character.
Speaker 4 (43:40):
Yes, thoros of Myr.
He's like singing along andpolitely threatens them and kind
of just wants to interrogatethem, takes them to a bar, asks
them how they escaped Harrenhaland then ends up freeing them.
But then, unfortunately forArya, the Hound waltzes in.
He didn't waltz in, he wascaptured by them and he
(44:05):
basically like outs her as aStark Right as they were about
to escape.
So that's where Arya's arc endsfor this episode.
Speaker 5 (44:15):
And I think that's the Hound's first appearance
since he quit and said peace outto Joffrey at the Battle of
Blackwater.
We're going to finish thisepisode with Brienne and Jaime,
which we have not seen since theseason two finale.
They get a lot of screen time.
We get Jaime and Brienne andJaime, which we have not seen
since the season two finale.
They get a lot of screen time.
We get Jaime and Briennetalking and again when I
mentioned about Renly'ssexuality, jaime starts teasing
(44:37):
her about Renly and how Renly'srelationships with guys was like
the worst kept secret in King'sLanding.
Everybody knew.
How could you not know?
And brienne takes uh offense tothat.
They see a I guess just aregular person, commoner, walk
by.
That's the moral question.
(44:58):
Is jamie says you need to killhim because if he he knows me,
he recognized me he's gonna findsomebody and say, hey, I saw
the king slayer on the king'sroad or traveling, whatever.
What?
This not hard to find giantwoman was blonde.
Yeah, brienne is not gonna dothat.
She's never gonna kill aninnocent person.
So we knew that that will comeback, bite them and but we
(45:21):
didn't realize it would havebeen in the same episode yeah,
yeah, I forgot that that'shappened in this episode as well
.
Speaker 4 (45:27):
I thought it would happen in the next and that's
where the episode ends, actually.
Um, but something that I wantto mention too.
I want to mention two thingsabout the scene very quick.
Um, I we talked about how we'reso excited to see their
storyline play out, andre-watching the scene, um, it
made me happy that they kind ofdid it the way that they did.
Like, did the storyline the waythat they did, because in the
(45:48):
books there's like a thirdperson with them, right, like a
Lannister cousin.
Speaker 5 (45:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (45:52):
So omitting him was an exodus idea because it added
to the tension between Jaime andBrienne, you know.
And then like the possible,like you know, like the romance
between them, it's not the sameif there is a third person.
They're just complaining aboutwhatever, about whatever, um,
and something that I love thatthey included here as well is
that in this episode you seethat jamie is showing the tyrian
in him.
You know, cersei and tywinwouldn't dare talk to brienne
(46:14):
this way, but like jamie is outthere like trying to find out
more about her, um, questioningher, you know, trying to find
out her backstory, and he'smaking jokes, but like he's
teasing her, but he's not likehe was teasing her in a mean way
, yes, but like in the books hewas meaner, but he's just
speaking like Tyrion would.
It was very Tyrion of him.
He's just trying to makeconversation, um, and of course
(46:35):
it's all for his own knowledgeand his like gain as well.
Like he wants to have the upperhand and figure out like her
motives, to tease her to, toplot, basically, but that's
still not something that peoplelike Cersei and Tywin would do,
like they're very proud, theywould remain quiet and just like
insult her and nothing else,but he was questioning her
making conversations.
So I just wanted to say that Iliked seeing that a lot, because
(46:57):
it's Jaime being more Tyrionthan he is being more Cersei and
I love that.
I love that whenever we see himlike without her, you see kind
of how much better he is.
You see the the betterLannister side and him come
through as we do here and howlike her, her influence on him
is just fading away, fading away, fading away.
So I just I really like Ididn't like that.
Speaker 5 (47:19):
So they have a little dueling session, which not
really.
I mean, he's kind of hasmanacles on he's and he's got
his manacles on he's and he,they're exhausted and she has
armor, so he has all thisagainst them, but without that,
I don't know what happens tobrianna, because I think he
could have figured out a way todefeat her, but who knows, and
(47:41):
again, not killing that innocentguy he comes back to bite them.
At the end we see a bannermanof a house fray come with the
flayed, uh, men on the cross,and they know exactly who that
is.
They know that's jamie, andjamie's like oh, my father's
gonna pay you, blah, blah, blah.
And he says why would I wantyour money?
If I take your money, then, uh,my head is going to be chopped
(48:04):
off by the king, meaning KingRob.
That's how the episode ends,with them being taken hostage.
And it's the beginning of theend of the Jaime Lannister that
we met and the beginning of theJaime that we began to admire
and like Does that make sense?
Speaker 4 (48:24):
Yeah, we mentioned how season three is like a
pivotal season for all thesecharacters, and that applies to
Jamie.
Speaker 5 (48:31):
Why don't we say our scene of the episode?
Speaker 4 (48:34):
There are so many great scenes, but I think my
favorite is the scene with Elenaand Sansa and Marjorie.
Speaker 5 (48:40):
Yes, that's great too .
I mean, they're all great.
Is it a cop out?
And they're all great, is it acop-out if I say I have a
three-way or two-way tie?
Speaker 4 (48:47):
No, that's fine.
Speaker 5 (48:48):
Or a three-way tie.
I love that scene, olena'sintroduction, I love Catelyn's
scene of admission of guilt andthen the Margaery scene with
Joffrey.
If I had to rank it, I'dprobably do Catelyn, olena and
Margaery, but they're allfantastic scenes and all were
(49:09):
given time.
We we were there with them.
My only dislike is that wethere was many moments in this
episode that we were withcharacters for like a minute and
then, boom, transition to thenext.
You know, we were at the northfor like maybe two minutes, boom
next.
And that's my only like petpeeve of the episode that's fine
.
Speaker 4 (49:26):
I agree with you.
I feel like it was veryjam-packed, but like I still
think that it has a lot of likestrengths, let's say value like
I still think it's a very goodepisode all right.
Speaker 5 (49:38):
Uh, what is your rating for dark wings, dark
words?
Speaker 4 (49:43):
maybe like an 8.5, 8.6.
Okay, that's what you gave thelast one, right, 8.5 or?
Speaker 5 (49:45):
8.
Then I'll give this an 8.5, 8.6.
Okay, that's what you gave thelast one, right?
8.5 or 8.6?
Speaker 4 (49:49):
Then I'll give this an 8.6.
It's better than the last one,maybe Like a little bit, so like
point by point one.
Speaker 5 (49:58):
I'm going to do 8.3.
I like the first episode betterthan this one.
Well, that's going to be allfor our coverage of Season 3,
Episode 2.
Next podcast we'll be talkingabout Episode 3 of Season 3,
called the Walk of Punishment.
Speaker 4 (50:15):
Ooh.
Speaker 5 (50:16):
Yes, it's funny.
I see that title and the firstthing I think about it was
Cersei's Walk of Shame.
But that's not until the end ofSeason 5.
Speaker 4 (50:23):
Yeah, yeah, that's not until the end of Season 5.
Yeah, yeah, that's why I saidmy ooh, because I was like
that's not expected.
Yeah, we're very excited tocontinue our coverage of Game of
Thrones Season 3.
To keep up with the podcast andeverything related to George's
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(50:45):
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