May 26, 2025 • 48 mins
For the 65th episode of Dancing with Dragon, Minwa & Tony dissect if oaths conflict, what choice do you make? From Robb's fateful decision with Karstark to Jaime's confession about killing the Mad King, "Kissed by Fire" forces characters to confront impossible moral dilemmas. Which would you choose?
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
The blood of the First Men flows through my veins
as much as yours, boy.
I fought the Mad King for yourfather.
I fought Joffrey for you.
We are King Stark and Karstark.
That didn't stop you frombetraying me and it won't save
you now.
I don't want it to save me.
(00:23):
I want it to hold you to theend of your days.
Kneel my lord Rickard Karstark,lord of Karhold.
Here, in sight of gods and men,I sentence you to die.
(00:47):
Would you speak a final word?
Kill me and be cursed.
You are no king of mine.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Welcome back Fire and Blood, faithful to Dancing with
Dragons, the podcast where wemarch through Westeros one
episode at a time.
My name is Tony, here with myco-host, minwa, and today we're
diving deep into Season 3,episode 5, kissed by Fire.
This one's got it all secretcaves and first loves, kings and
killers, honor and executionand a bad scene that redefines a
villain.
(01:33):
Why don't we start our reviewof the fifth episode of game of
thrones, season three, kissed byfire?
It premiered april 28, 2013.
Written by brian cogman anddirected by Alex Graves.
Graves goes on to direct fourepisodes in season four, which
include the purple wedding it'snot called the purple wedding,
but we all know about thatOberyn and the mountain, the
(01:55):
trial by combat episode and theseason finale, and he does one
more in between.
For this episode, I felt likeit moves through a lot of
locations and the characters.
You know how we always haveissues with that.
We're like, well, there's toomany characters, there's too
many locations, but for thisepisode, I felt like it flowed
very naturally into the next.
(02:15):
You felt more interconnectedrather than being scattered.
Okay, kiss by fire is a phraseused by the wildlings to
describe people who arered-haired.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
I just want to jump in and say something about that.
Obviously, it's talking aboutsecret.
That's what the wildlingsdescribe redheads as they
consider it.
Good luck, or you're blessed.
If you're a redhead, you'reconsidered kissed by fire.
But there's a secret meaning orsomething that you could
overthink if you're a hardcorefan and just like to make
(02:47):
something out of nothing, likeme and some other fans online.
So people who are saying thatthe double meaning here is that
you know.
Obviously, in this episode wesee egret and john kissed for
the first time and since john istargaryen, he's a blood of the
dragon, he's tar, he's fire.
And Hegris was kissed by firein two ways because of her red
(03:08):
head and because she was kissedby Jon Snow, kissed by fire.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
My brain went to the Hound and he's traumatized by
fire.
And then you have BarryThundarian with the flaming
sword.
That just adds to the crazinessof this child by combat.
So that's what my brain wasgoing to when it said kids by
fire.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
Yeah, I think that makes more sense and that's
better than what I had.
I just thought that that was afunny double meaning that you
could think of when it comes toEgris.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Where should we start ?
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Let's start there with what you just talked about.
Let's start with the Hound andthe Brothers Without Banners and
Arya, because it's the firstscene of the show as well.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
I really enjoyed this scene.
The fight choreography is welldone.
The beautiful lighting thatreally enhanced the brightness
of the flames done the beautifullighting that really enhanced
the brightness of the flames.
I just love how you cut to ariaand she yells kill him with
such conviction and like I'venever seen aria that like to see
like she was like pissed, Ithink it all boils down to like
(04:17):
one.
You killed my friend two year.
You were a lab dog, literallyfor the Lannisters who hate my
family Like all that was boilingand it comes out in her Like
she wants.
She runs and tries to kill theHound herself.
Actually there's like threescenes in this cave and all well
done.
I just really enjoyed this partof the episode.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
So did I.
I think that it's actually kindof Arya kind of broke my heart
a little bit in this episodebecause, as you said, like we
can see her passion or, I guess,her anger towards the Hound,
but just to like jump to the endof the scene there when she,
when they talk about, you know,beric being resurrected and
Thoros and she's you know, she'sseeing this in front of her
(05:00):
eyes.
What she just tells them is soheartbreaking.
She said could you bring back aman without a head?
Not six times, just once.
It's a rare moment, I think,where we see our aria being
emotional because we haven'treally seen her, um, have a
moment like that for a while.
You reach see her wantingrevenge and you know, uh,
formulating her list and justsurviving.
(05:21):
But I think this is the firsttime that she's like really
sitting with her grief becauselike she has to face it almost
she has to see that other peoplecan be, are living this life
and are getting resurrected andyeah she hasn't, uh, had any
time to actually process, or,yeah, she's processed.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
He's been on the run since ned was executed.
But let me ask you this is itcheating to fight in a trial by
combat if you lose and have thelord of light mulligan of being
resurrected?
Speaker 3 (05:53):
I mean, I guess kind of in their world and their
religion they're like oh,whoever wins is like what their
god or gods uh, choose right,and then if that same power
bring back the the loser, then Iguess that's what's, what's
decreed too.
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (06:13):
like yeah I mean, I do give uh, beric and thoris
credit for sticking to the word.
Um, sticking to your word andoaths is very, very important in
this episode.
And also we have Gendry whowants to stay with the
Brotherhood and he kind of givesArya the speech of you know, I
want to be part of something.
(06:33):
I've never been part ofanything.
I've always had to work, I'vealways had a master, I've always
been people sold me.
I want to be part of somethingimportant.
And she kind of says well, youcould be with me, you know, rob
could help you and and you'd be,you'd be my family.
And I love the line that hesays you wouldn't be my family,
you'd be my lady, because hewould go back to being, I guess,
(06:54):
not a peasant, but he doesn'twant to be inferior to and he
wants to be part of somethingthat everybody's kind of equal.
And that's what the brotherhoodis.
They're not.
Yeah, they have a leader, butit's not like a class system.
As you know, if you go to riverrun and he goes, that obviously
he's gonna have to call her mylady, not my lady.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Yeah, so I, I get, I understand where he's coming
from and that kind of shocksaria a bit and she kind of it
takes her back a little bit likehuh yeah, I think that she
never really considered thathonestly before Gendry said that
Because in her mind, eventhough she's going to be a lady
and everything she's like, we'reall equal, we're all the same,
we can have the samerelationship, even though I'm
(07:37):
the lady of Winterfell, and Ithink that's the reason she
thinks that, because of how shelived in Winterfell, know, we
saw her for like an episode, Iguess, or two, um, before uh,
game of thrones really kickedoff and they were in winterfell.
She was just, you know, runningaround the yards was a very
homey environment, they were allone.
It didn't feel like they were,you know, like these untouchable
(07:58):
lords and ladies.
Um, yeah, like she, she wasvery connected with, with, um,
the northern people.
So, like I don't know, she toher there was no barrier,
whereas with gendry being inking's landing, there was an
extreme barrier between him and,like the common folk of people
of the area and the northernladies that lived there.
So I think that's just aninteresting contrast, um, and
(08:21):
something that's already neverconsidered before, because of
where she came from and speakingof people that come from
different backgrounds but areconnected and talk about oaths
and keeping their words.
Let's move on to john's no andegret, who we talked about in
the beginning of the episode.
Um, obviously I mentioned thisalready, but you know we see
john break his oath in thisepisode.
(08:42):
Um, we see him struggle with itquite a bit.
I guess you know we see Johnbreak his oath in this episode.
Um, we see him struggle with itquite a bit.
I guess you know, like,internally, and even more so in
the books, we see him like, Iguess I don't say panic over it,
but we see him kind of kind ofanxious and ashamed that he was,
you know, about to break hisvows and then he kind of
reminded himself like all theother brothers did the same
(09:03):
thing as well.
They, you know, it's known thatthe brother of the night's
watch got him one time, but forhim of course, it's different.
He feels, you know, panicked inthe book, I guess more you know
, because we see it in his pointof view that he's like a stark
son and he's doing this and I,if I remember correctly, I think
there was a moment where he waslike what would ned think?
But then he remembers that ned,you know, like fathered him
(09:24):
yeah yeah, I don't feel likeit's.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
I mean, if you're a hostage, right, basically you
could be killed at any moment toreally breaking your oath as a
brother of the night's watch.
If you never, if you thinkyou're gonna die soon yeah, I
mean, I don't know I wouldn'teven be thinking about the.
Night's Watch at the moment.
That's just me.
Yeah, it feels like if you are,in any moment's notice, be
(09:50):
killed in his mind, not going tosee the Night's Watch again, or
the wall.
Is it really breaking your oathor does he have to go through
with this so he can survive?
That's how he justifiesbreaking his oath.
Well, I have to do this If Icould get her by my side.
Or does he really fall in lovewith her?
Because, like he's, he goes uh,I was a maid, which is a weird
(10:12):
little.
There's.
No, uh, they don't use the termvirgin.
Obviously in westeros they justsay he took my.
What is it?
Maidenhood or that's?
That's the word.
Yeah, I think it was a funnymoment when she's talking about
her conquest and he goes yeah, Idon't want to hear it.
That's fine, which every guy'slike yeah, I don't want to hear
(10:33):
about any any, let's just talkabout the future now.
We don't want to hear aboutanything you've done.
No, but I also love the sceneprior to the cave.
Is that they're trying to stillinterrogate him for information
about how the patrols in all thecastles, how many of the
castles have watchers or peoplewatching Throughout the wall?
(10:56):
It was 700 miles or 700 miles,there's 19 castles and there's
only three of them that arearmed or being protected.
He does tell a little white liebecause he says there's 1,000
men in Castle Black and we knowthere's not 1,000 men.
I think when they left for theGreat Ranging with Mormont, when
(11:17):
he took like 300 guys up beyondthe wall, pretty much 90% of
those people died right upbeyond, beyond the wall.
Pretty much 90 of those peopledied right.
So realistically, there's only300 men guarding castle black
and I think he said it in such away that that they believe them
.
He's like I'm gonna kill youbecause he tells um, the guy
who's a warg for his name or no,that's the guy's name, right or
(11:41):
no?
Inell, I always forget.
I'm going to check, but anyway,I mean he's.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Orrell, orrell, or.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Ornell Ornell.
Ornell is probably like a brandname of an appliance.
So you get him breaking hisoath of lying, I guess, to he's
protecting his brothers.
Of course we're going toforgive him for lying because
he's thinking about other people.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
Like when you said oh oh, he wouldn't care about his
vows.
I think that's what he's notcaring about.
He doesn't care about lying ornot, and he he doesn't really
see that as serious as breakinghis vows with the eagerness you
know what I mean.
He's like this is a lie, I'mgoing to get killed anyways.
I might well just just lie andsay this thing, and I don't know
if it's true or not to him it's, it's a bigger deal that he
(12:27):
broke his vows with the egressbecause, especially because of
the trauma in his head of what,um, what could come of it, you
know what I mean.
Like I don't think of course wedon't see it in the show
because we're not in john's headthe way we are in the book.
But in the book I think he saidsomething like he was nervous
about like fathering a sonthat's not, that's illegitimate,
and that baby then living thetrauma of being illegitimate the
(12:50):
way that he was, you know.
So he was thinking deep, he waspanicking, he was like looking
years into the future of hislike hypothetical baby's trauma.
So it's like a turning pointfor John, you know, you know
what.
But we said so many thingsabout John at the end of the
episode I think he was happy.
This is one of the happiestmemories that he has ever had in
his life, something that he canlook back on for the rest of
his life.
(13:10):
So I'm at least happy for him.
But he's not the only one of hissiblings, I guess, to quote,
unquote, siblings.
That's panicking, going througha turning point in this episode
and this episode and making aquestionable ethical decision,
or like a dilemma, um, becauserob is going through it in this
(13:31):
episode or, like he, a hugeturning point for him to say
that he's um.
We included the audio clip ofhim at the beginning of this
episode and it's the momentwhere he decides to execute um,
ricard carstark.
Uh, just to recap, in case youmissed it, ricard car stark
killed the teenage lannisterboys, um, who were like
prisoners or hostages at thestark camp, and he killed them
(13:52):
as revenge for his sons who werekilled by jamie.
It was like out of anger almost.
It wasn't really like thosekids did anything and he was
getting revenge on themspecifically.
It was just that he wantedlannister blood immediately and
and Team Stark wasn't acting.
They haven't been acting in awhile.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
And this has been building up since last season.
Kar Stark has been foaming inthe mouth for so-called justice
and he kills poor TommenBaratheon.
I'm sorry, poor Tommen diestwice in the series.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
Yeah, yeah, the actor that plays Tommen.
He has two death scenes.
He plays one of those Lannisterboys.
So yeah, as punishment for that, rob's trying to be so ethical,
so noble.
So he orders Karstark tobasically be sent to the
dungeons and he kills all ofKarstark's men.
(14:49):
I believe Karstark has a verykind of epic line to Rob and he
says if Rob kills him he'd be akinslayer, because the Starks
and Karstarks are kin, they'rerelated.
And he says kill me and becursed.
You are no king of mine.
And Rob just then executes him,which is it's so heartbreaking,
it's epic, but it's soheartbreaking because we don't
(15:10):
want this for Rob and it's weunderstand where he's coming
from, being so noble,understanding how his mind works
, how Ned's mind works.
But, like everyone around, Rob.
We know it's an unwise decision.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
We know it's something that somebody like the
black fish should have just sethim down and be like, look,
maybe he could have gottenthrough to Rob, so why don't you
?
Because Edmure is telling him,hey, don't do this.
And he doesn't really respectEdmure, but the Blackfish
doesn't say anything and I thinkhim sitting him down and say,
(15:43):
look, I know what he did waswrong, but if your goal or
objective is to win this war,you cannot alienate these people
because they're in the show itsays that it's half of his
forces, but in the book it's not, as it's not as much, but still
it's not a good look to haveone of your key bannermen leave
(16:05):
the fight and I think it's justa dumb decision and it's
inexperience of not.
I have to stick to this, thisloyalty, this honor, and not
thinking about every singledomino that's going to fall
after you knock one down.
He's not thinking about that.
He's the ramifications of thisdeath is basically his downfall.
(16:28):
It's arguably the, the turningpoint we we can say we always
talk about.
When did Rob lose the war?
Was it the day that the Northclaimed him as the king, which I
think was silly, what?
That's not.
Yeah, that's not hisaspirations.
He wanted revenge or justicefor his father.
He should have said look, I'mnot a a king, we're just going
(16:50):
up there, kick some ass, get mysisters back.
But no, he, he took the monikerof king, whatever was it.
Did he lose the war when hemarried talisa?
And he, he broke a major oathto the phrase of saying, hey,
I'm going to marry one of yourdaughters.
Was that that key moment?
Probably Probably, because thenWalder Frey and his sick minds,
(17:11):
I'm just going to figure out away to betray you.
Or was it this?
I mean, it's all.
This was just the cherry on topof the cake For him.
He made so many bad decisionsin this episode Killing Karstarr
and then going.
I'm going to take Casterly Rock, that Casterly Rock.
What the heck With Tyrion inseason seven, robin, season
(17:35):
three, like who cares about that?
And then he goes.
I can't go through therewithout the phrase.
And then, boom, the wheels ofthe red wedding are set in
motion in this episode and itgoes when I hear the phrase and
I hear him and I go oh my, herehe comes, he's coming in three
episodes.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
I'm going to have to review that don't remind me, but
yeah, this is like I have to bereminded because this is just
like the beginning of the endfor Rob, like literally you said
it yourself like I think himlike there were two major
mistakes that he did that barelycould have recovered from, like
it was a very unlikely chancehe could have recovered from,
(18:11):
like it was a very, veryunlikely chance to get a recover
from them, the first one beinghis marriage and the second one
being um, um this I think hismarriage is a bit more
salvageable because, um, like hestill had the car starts with
him and especially in the books,he didn't marry some random
person from volantis or whatever.
He married like someone thatwas kind of noble, right, like
(18:31):
she was a he's talking about inthe novel yeah oh, jane west,
yeah you mentioned theblackfish and it's so weird.
Why didn't the blackfish sayanything, not to say about?
I never.
I never thought about thatbefore.
Like why didn't he stop it?
I know that we see caitlin andtelitha trying to stop him, but
(18:51):
he probably would have listenedto the Blackfish.
Why didn't we get that?
That's so weird.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Or maybe the Blackfish is one of those
stubborn guys with with oaths orlike respecting us.
This is my King, I'm not goingto.
His decision is final.
I think Rob would have listenedto him.
So why don't we leave oneself-made King to another in
Stannis and Stannis is again theactor I forgot his name, but
he's really good, has thatbrooding face so down so well.
(19:19):
And we get to meet his wife,queen Selyse.
That does show up in season two.
I think she's in the background.
You can see her in the scenesbut she has no dialogue.
So this is her official comingout party of.
That's my wife.
What I found weird was she'svery devout to the lord of light
(19:40):
, like super, super devout.
What was very distracting inthis scene was having the unborn
kids in those jars.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
Oh God, yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
It was very creepy, very disturbing, and that does
not happen at all.
That's just a show edition,which I thought was kind of
weird.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
And to add to the weirdness, did you see that it
was based on someone in reallife?
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Yes, I read that.
Yes, that's what the hell.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
I'm sorry, that's that's.
Yeah, I'm sorry, that's just,I'm not.
It's scary.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
I'm sorry, like that's just a freak me out and
you know somebody is in a cultor brainwash when your husband
says, oh, I broke my vow or myoath another scene about oaths
and vows with stannisis becausehe had relations with Melisandre
.
And she's like oh no, I know.
(20:38):
I love it what she was so forit and he's like he was kind of
shocked that she was so into it.
That's kind of weird.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
It made him more because he was kind of disgusted
with himself.
When he goes to to his wife forthe first time to salise, and
then when she doesn't mind, itkind of makes him like feel even
weirder about it.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Like, uh, okay uh, we get to meet his daughter,
princess Shireen.
It's one of those things whereyou see her, you're kind of
shocked because she has thishalf her face is covered in this
disfigurement and they neverexplain it.
We don't know what's going onand I think in season five, once
we figure out and we learnabout grayscale in season five,
(21:28):
we go oh, that's what, princessShireen?
Speaker 3 (21:31):
is.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
And she had it during her infancy but somehow, uh,
she survived it and the mostimportant thing about her
surviving it and having it stillher face is that it's not
contagious.
Usually if you have greyscaleyou can't be touched.
It's super contagious, uh, butfor her it's not so, and it
couldn't happen to a more lovely, adorable human being.
(21:57):
Because shireen is one of thosecharacters that I want to be
friends with and I think herrelationship with davos is one
of my favorites in the wholeshow.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
It's because such a sweet she's such a sweet girl
and her like I guessrelationship with Davos is one
of my favorites in the wholeshow.
It's because such a sweet,she's such a sweet girl and her
like I guess relationship withDavos is just as sweet as she is
.
Cause, you know, we, we, wefeel bad for Davos often, that
he is this very like kind ofloyal guy who was just trying to
like get by and he is yet notappreciated by the person that
(22:30):
he has faith in.
You know, like status neverreally shows him that
appreciation and we almost wantbetter for davos every time we
see him, you know, because we'relike we need, you need better
than stannis.
I've said that before in thepodcast too.
Um, so you kind of meet shireenand you kind of understand
davos is a bit like part of whyhe's there, is, I, I guess, for
(22:52):
her too, because where elsewould anyone treat Davos with
any softness, any care?
And I think that when he seesher he probably remembers his
son who he lost, and it's theonly friendship that either of
them have.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
I feel like Shireen.
Davos is the father figure thatShireen doesn't have in Stannis
.
Stannis is so closed off and Ifeel bad.
She's essentially an orphan.
She has nobody there to be withher, to talk to her, and then
having Davos as a friend isessentially a father figure.
(23:26):
I love that she goes down tovisit him in the dungeon and
it's one of my.
It's only like a minute, butjust this back and forth is very
, very touching.
Speaker 4 (23:36):
If your father knew You're a traitor, are you?
Speaker 5 (23:41):
I am child.
I disobeyed my king, yourfather, and now I'm paying the
price.
Speaker 4 (23:48):
I don't care, you're my friend, you must get bored
down here.
I brought you something to read.
It's about Aegon and hisdragons.
Aegon used to live here, didyou know that?
And the Targaryens built thiscastle.
Speaker 5 (24:00):
So they did.
Speaker 4 (24:01):
You can hide the book under your cloak.
It's a good one.
I'll bring you more.
Speaker 5 (24:05):
Thank you, my lady.
I'm sure it's a fine book, butit's wasted on me.
Speaker 4 (24:13):
Take it I.
It's a fine book but it'swasted on me.
Nick, I have more.
My lady, I can't read the words.
You can't, I'll teach you.
I'll come when Bert's on dutyand teach you.
It's easy, it'll be fun.
No, we can't.
Why not?
What will they do?
Lock us in cells?
I wouldn't know where to start.
(24:41):
At the beginning this word isegg on, and you see a, e and g
together like that.
It sounds like egg, and thetitle of the whole book is an
history of egg on the conquerorand I love that shireen is such
a fan of the Targaryens becauseshe loves all the books.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Season five, she tells her dad Stannis about the
Dance of the Dragons and sheread the book.
She just loves everythingdragons and Targaryens.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
Before we move on, I just want to clarify the fact
that I mentioned about Cindlease keeping the remains of her
of her sons preserved in jars,and how that's based on someone
in real life.
Um, it's not the exact samething.
I thought.
I thought that's what I read,but, um, uh, the director, or
like, sorry, the producer, briancogman, said that.
(25:27):
Um, it was inspired by anacquaintance who had the hands
of her stillborn son bronzed andkeeps them on the shelf.
So it's not this exact same.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
It's not like a jar.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
Yeah, not a jar, not a jar.
So I just wanted to clarifythat fact.
It's more real, more sad, but Ijust want to clarify that.
It's not the disturbing thingthat Sidious is doing, I guess.
So Shireen mentioned Targaryen,so let's move on to the
Targaryen, the best Targaryen,my Targaryen, my queen Daenerys.
(25:59):
You know, in the last episodeshe had one of the best scenes
for her character of all time,if not the best, when she frees
the unsudied.
And now we see her kind ofdealing with what happens right
after.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
She's crushing that Valyrian.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
She's using her Valyrian, as you said, not just
showing off to us I guess theviewers, and being like this is
what I've been keeping it allalong but also to Missandei,
because Missandei, you know, Ithink she wants to show off to
someone else that speaks herlanguage.
With Missandei, with heradvisors, jorah and Barristan,
(26:32):
and she meets Grey Worm.
She addresses them in lowValyrian and I think this is I
think it was in this episode orthe next where it's the first
time they make I think it's thenext one the distinction between
low Valyrian and high Valyrian.
But when she speaks to GreyWorm it is in low Valyrian,
which I guess is just what'sremained of the region and what
they communicate with us.
So when she talks to them, shesays that you know that they're
(26:52):
no longer slaves, they're free.
But Grey Worm refuses to likekind of change his name.
He keeps the name that he wasgiven as slave, grey Worm, which
is supposed to be like adegrading name.
That's what um Krasnus saidearlier, which is that they're
all given um, like bad names,like like Red Rat or something
like that you know what I meanJust to make them feel not human
(27:12):
.
So Danny is still confused asto why he's saying this, but
then he says that it's all outof respect for her because he
sees it as good luck.
He was freed while he carriedthis name.
He didn't want this originalname because he was enslaved
while he had that name.
So I think that Danny kind ofdoesn't really get it, but she,
(27:34):
you know, she hears this and shekind of feels, I guess maybe at
least that she's happy thatsomeone sees it as his luck
turning around.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
I do like the interaction between Jorah and
Selmy and I like how Selmy saysa man of honor keeps his vows
even if he's serving a drunk ora lunatic.
I'm just going to save thatline until we talk about Jamie
and Brienne, because it's veryimportant and I want to come
back to that he does say.
For one time in my life I had toserve somebody.
(28:04):
Who's what did he say?
Just or pure?
I forgot the line he said Doyou think she's the one?
And Jorah says says you knowyou believe in her.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
Yeah, with all my heart and just to clarify uh,
you asked about what barrisonsaid, how he described dan.
He says that just once beforehe dies, he wants to know what
it's like to serve with pride,fighting for someone he believes
in okay that's how he mentionstime.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Yeah, all right, I want us to move on, because
there's two very big scenes onethat's character changing, I
think for jamie, and that's theone in the bathtub, and we've
talked about this many times andwe're here.
We finally get to dissect it.
Speaker 5 (28:45):
So here's what jamie is telling rianne Tell me, if
your precious friend commandedyou to kill your own father and
stand by while thousands of men,women and children burned alive
, would you have done it?
Speaker 1 (29:05):
Would you have kept your oath then?
Speaker 5 (29:11):
First I killed the pyromancer and then, when the
king turned to flee, I drove mysword into his back.
Burn them all.
He kept saying, burn them all.
I don't think he expected todie.
He meant to band with the restof us and rise again, reborn as
(29:40):
a dragon, turn his enemies toash.
They still used it out to makesure that didn't happen.
I still is proud to make surethat didn't happen.
Speaker 4 (29:59):
That's where Ned Stark found me.
If this is true, why didn't youtell anyone?
Speaker 5 (30:19):
Why didn't you tell Lord Stark Stark, you think the
honorable Ned Stark wanted tohear my side?
He judged me guilty the momenthe set eyes on me.
By what right?
Speaker 4 (30:30):
does the both judge the lion?
By what right the king's there?
Speaker 2 (30:40):
jamie, my name's jamie you know, it's funny that
he says a heartwarming thing andhe's all that stuff and then
she goes, the king slayer yeah,literally that's my thing, but
like that's so wrong.
(31:01):
Um, no, I mean, that's sopowerful.
That moment and I there's onelittle moment in the beginning,
before we get into this, thisspeech is that when he gets into
the bathtub naked or whatever,brienne is, like you know,
covering her body, shielding herbody, right yeah, and very
nervous to be around him.
(31:21):
And then there's a moment wherehe takes a jab.
Renly says something oh, thisis why Renly and she gets up and
forgets about it.
She's not shy anymore becauseshe's so pissed that he
dishonored his name.
To me, that was a greatcontrast of her being, like
shielding her, but like she's sotimid.
That's it Getting up to thestrong.
I got a sense of like I'm goingto forget about being that
(31:43):
person because he just saidsomething about somebody I loved
and cared about and you're notgoing to disrespect them that
way.
Speaker 4 (31:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
And he actually says I'm sorry, like the true apology
.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
She appreciates this, I think.
That's really, I think, at thatpoint, like she believes him
when she she I don't want to sayshe trusts him fully.
But it's why I think Jamie wasable to open up, because there's
kind of that understanding thatthere's like a truth between
them, that it's like peacefulfor a while.
You know what I mean.
Like, yeah, you know.
We also have to remember thathe kind of helped save her
(32:18):
life's, had to come to say, frombeing assaulted in previous
episodes.
She knows that, like he already, that he has this good side,
she's accepting of him and herecognizes that and that's why
he was able to open up because,like he knows that she is being
that side of him, whereas if he,like other people, just choose
not to, even though they knowthat he might have a good side,
(32:40):
they prioritize the kink sayerthing.
You know, like they only seehim in one specific, narrow way.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
And I think, asking the question and turning it
around for her to actually thinkabout what would you have done
if Renly commanded you to killyour father and kill innocent
people?
Would you have done it?
Because he's your king andthat's an order and you have to
do whatever the king you know,and just think about it.
Well, I talked about Berensonsome and he said you know, you
(33:08):
have to keep your vows, even ifyou're serving a drunk or a
lunatic.
Yet Berenson didn't get anycrap for being loyal to the
Targaryens.
He was offered a promotion or ajob to keep his old job, you
know.
Yeah, jaime was branded like atraitor as soon as Ned Stark, or
because his supposed moralcompass is not the same.
(33:33):
So everybody's just passingthis judgment on him because he
broke his oath, even though inthe truth he saved thousands of
people.
So I think jamie, at this pointhe has suffered for his crimes
and we saw one that's funny Ithought about.
You saw one resurrection andthen you kind of see another one
, but this less literalobviously.
(33:54):
Um, yeah he's not the Kingslayer, he's not the man without honor
.
No more in Brienne's eyes he'sJaime to everybody else he's
still the Kingslayer, but to her, I think, just saying that to
her because he knows that she'sso honorable, I think that makes
(34:18):
him feel okay, and maybebecause he's probably thinking
to himself I'm going to die soon.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
Yeah, that's true and like I like that you said that
too.
That's just like a rebirthalmost for Jamie, because for me
this was like I do agree, and Ithink that this is the first
time in the show we reallyreally start to see how complex
Jamie is.
You know, like you said, heserved for his crimes and now
(34:43):
we're kind of peeled to our firmand we see who he really is.
That's the thing.
We're being introduced to thegray area.
I think you know what I mean.
We're seeing that Jamie hasthis side, that he saved the
city and he makes us questionhim and everything that we know
about him alongside Brienne.
That's what I'm trying to sayis that it was more powerful to
(35:04):
see this as current Jamie sayingthe story rather than, um, it's
being a flashback, because Isaw this a criticism of this
episode.
Someone said I I would havepreferred it as a flashback, but
I think it's more powerfulseeing this as current Jamie
saying the story, because we'reseeing the person we know now
like the villain and just likeall of that, like kind of being
(35:28):
melted away along with the dirton his body.
You know what I'm saying?
Like we see it in front of oureyes.
We see the hurt of that Kings'sLair legacy.
In Nicolai Coster-Waldau's eyes, the actor's eyes, we see how
that burden kind of weighed onhim ever since that happened.
It's the first time that he'sopening up about it.
I don't know if it's canonical,but it feels like it.
(35:48):
You know, like that someone isactually listening to him and
hearing him and he's sovulnerable.
He's not wearing any clothes,he's like you know, know, he
lost a limb, he's.
We just see all of that king'splayer identity being melted
away in him like kind of justbeing, as you said, reborn.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
So I think that that was so powerful, that was
excellent all right, let's headdown to king's landing, and
there's actually a lot of quickscenes here, but two major ones
that I really want to focus on.
So let's, uh, do the quickscenes.
There's one with lot of quickscenes here, but two major ones
that I really want to focus on.
So let's do the quick scenes.
There's one with Cersei andBaelish.
Cersei is you know, we'vetalked about her being fed up
with the Tyrells.
(36:26):
She just can't stand thesepeople.
She knows they're plottingsomething, so she enlists the
help of Baelish.
She goes, yes, and she goes.
Well, I hope you do a betterjob than finding Aria.
She kind of jabs him a littlebit and I think what happens is
that Littlefinger sends one ofhis I say male workers to kind
(36:47):
of seduce Loras Tyrell.
What I found is that when Lorasends up in bed with think the
guy's name is Oliver, is that alot of people were upset, like
online.
Is that you know, loris wasloved, friendly, so much like he
, that was his, the love of hislife, and for him to just get in
(37:08):
bed with somebody like that soeasily, it's just it dilutes his
storyline with with renly.
But then I read that thedirector had planned this major
scene of Loras regrettingsleeping with Oliver.
He did it, but right after it'sjust like I can't believe I did
this with cutting that out.
It kind of leaves a sour tasteof of Loras doing that, so
(37:34):
anyway.
So the whole point of Oliverseducing him was to get some
information from the Tyrells andLoras in bed naked he goes.
Oh yeah, by the way, you knowthey want me to marry Sansa.
Then we get to one of myfavorite scenes in this in the
season is having twoheavyweights of intellect and
sass and wit with Olenna andTyrion.
(37:57):
Tyrion and Olenna are talkingabout the wedding and they're
talking about the expenses.
It's poor padra, she, she justscolds all these people who work
around.
I want to say like servants,but she's like where'd you go?
She asked for something.
He comes back, I think oneminute later and she's where'd
you go, volantis, to get this?
Speaker 3 (38:19):
Yeah, oh my God, I literally wrote that down as
being a really funny line.
I wanted to say it too.
It's so funny, it's so real,it's so like sassy old lady.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
Yeah, but I mean she was gone for like maybe two
minutes tops.
I mean that's fast service.
In my opinion, there's animportant line that Olena says
is that she so eloquentlydescribes how the rich and
powerful provide distraction inorder for the hungry not to turn
(38:52):
on them.
And we need these distractionsbecause, if not, these people
will have nothing to do, and ifthey have, nothing to do.
Speaker 4 (39:03):
All they're going to think about is getting rid of us
?
Speaker 2 (39:04):
Yeah, that's why you know you have the tournaments
and you have this.
Is you want people to bedistracted from?
Oh, by the way, yeah, I haven'teaten in a week, but yeah,
there's a tournament tomorrow.
I guess I need to watch that.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
She is and I think that, like it showed that she
was.
Uh, you know, we see it in theprevious episode too, and I
think that the previous one orthe one before it's when
marjorie like leads joffrey tothe people and lets them cheer
for him you know, we talkedabout that scene um, and when
cersei kind of feels like shestarts to lose control over
joffrey and, you know, tywin, itjust has to like what's good,
someone got to him.
(39:37):
So, anyways, I think that'swhen we hear Elena say this, we
are like, yeah, that's whereMarjorie got us from, that's
where she learned her lessonfrom.
She's been listening to hergrandmother, um, because
something that Marjorieunderstood and like that, the
point of being loved by likegoing and distracting them and
talking to them and stuff likethat.
So, yeah, olena's lessons.
(40:00):
Um, I wish we got more sceneswith tyrian and olena.
Yeah, like it's such a wastethat I don't know, maybe there's
something I'm forgetting about,but I feel like I just wish we
saw more and more and more,because you have these two
really sassy, clever characters.
Who wants as many scenes withthem as possible?
Speaker 2 (40:14):
yeah, tyrian tries to say you know we're spending a
lot of money, and Alanna's like,yeah, but by the way, I'm
providing this, I'm providingthis with the house time.
I was providing this many sheep, this many livestock, this much
amount of food, million,whatever, million, this million
that you know, all thesesoldiers, all these, and he goes
oh yeah, I forgot, we'reproviding.
(40:36):
I mean they.
And he goes oh yeah, I forgot,we're providing.
I mean they're sustaining thecity with their contributions to
King's Landing, and she goesyou know what?
Whatever, let me just pay forhalf of it.
Let's move on to the last sceneof the episode.
I know I sound like a brokenrecord because I always say, oh,
this is one of my favorites,but this scene has three of the
(40:57):
best actors in the whole show.
And it's Tywin.
Nor should it be yours.
Speaker 4 (41:01):
She's a child she's flowered, I assure you, she and
(41:23):
I have discussed it at length.
Speaker 5 (41:24):
There you see, you will wed her, bed her and put a
child in her.
Surely you're capable of that.
And if I refuse, you want it tobe rewarded for your valour in
battle.
Sansa Stark has a finer rewardthan you could ever dare hope
for, and it is past time.
You were, we d, I was wed.
Oh, don't you remember Only toowell.
(41:48):
You should be thanking the godsfor this.
This is more than you deserve.
Tyrion will do as he's bid, aswill you.
Speaker 4 (42:01):
What do you mean?
Speaker 5 (42:03):
You'll marry Ser Loras.
I will not.
The boy is heir to HighgardenTyrion will secure the North.
You will secure the Reach.
No, I won't do it.
Yes, you will.
You're still fertile.
You need to marry again andbreed.
Speaker 3 (42:17):
I am.
Speaker 5 (42:17):
Queen Regent, not some broodmare.
You're still fertile.
You need to marry again andbreed.
I am Queen Regent, not somebroodmare.
You're my daughter.
You will do as I command andyou will marry Loras Tyrell and
put an end to the disgustingrumors about you once and for
all.
Speaker 4 (42:31):
Father, don't make me do it again, please, not
another word.
Speaker 5 (42:36):
My children.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
You disgraced the Lannister name for far too long.
My children, the way you saidthat was such disdain, such
disappointment.
Speaker 3 (42:59):
You felt for her like a little ounce of sympathy when
she says, don't make me do itagain.
Yeah, that's the thing that's.
When she says, don't make me doit again yeah, that's the thing
, that's the thing, don't makeme do it again.
Because, but, honestly, likeyou feel for tyrian just as much
too, because, yeah, like it'sfor him, it's an again situation
, as he says too, you know, liketyrian bringing up his past too
and how that was so hurtful forhim as well.
And I think with tyrian, theadditional element that like
kind of makes it, adds to thesadness, I guess, of it isn't
(43:20):
just the fact that he, hedoesn't want to see it.
He sees it as like a misfortunefor sansa.
Cersei doesn't see it as amisfortune for doris she's just
thinking that she doesn't wantto be in that situation.
But tyrian, he feels guilt andhe feels shame about that.
And it makes us feel for tyrianmore because he thinks about
sansa, I think, almost before hethinks about himself yeah, he's
thinking about others.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
And and the way tylen says the girl's happiness is
not of my concern, it's socutting like I don't care, just
wet her, bed her, and just dowhat you have to do because we
need to have the north and andjust like his commanding
performance and he's just amaster like.
Speaker 3 (43:59):
He shows why he's like a master strategist playing
, playing his children likepieces on the chessboard not
just that, like you also see,like cersei, like of course she
does something, she acts so smugand everything and then just
goes back against her.
You know what I mean.
Like she's getting a taste ofher own medicine, basically.
But it's not just that, it'salso like like very, very flawed
(44:21):
I don't want to say feminism,but you know what I mean.
Like she's like oh don't, I'mnot a broodmare, I'm not just
someone that's, that's going tolike just bring kids and going
to be used for.
Came to Sansa.
She was like oh yeah, she'sflowered, she'll be okay.
What?
Speaker 2 (44:37):
else do you want?
Yeah, Tywin's like you're stillfertile, you need to breed.
Speaker 3 (44:45):
It's so like, yeah, it's so direct, but she was
speaking of Sansa in that waytwo seconds ago.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
Yeah, and here's the difference between characters.
You have Cersei being so smugbecause Tyrion has to do this,
and once tywin is talking tocersei, tyrian, this says
nothing.
He's his face is blank becausehe he doesn't find joy like that
in in seeing his sister, eventhough he hates her.
(45:11):
He, he's not.
He could have been like, youknow what I mean.
Like yeah, yeah, how does thatkarma taste?
You know he could have beenlike ha, ha, ha, ha ha.
Speaker 4 (45:17):
You know what I mean.
Like yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:20):
How does that karma taste?
You know he could have beenlike that, but anyway, yeah it's
.
It's one of my favorite scenes.
I watch it like every once in awhile, cause it's the acting is
, is the dialogue, everythingabout it's just incredible.
We'll see what happens.
Because now again we'rethinking about Sansa and this
poor kid, like she can't catch abreak.
(45:40):
Earlier in the episode we'rethinking, oh, she's gonna marry
Loras, she's gonna live inHighgarden, she's gonna be uh
and she's gonna live out her herdays in the Highgarden as as
sort of a well, a princess and alady, and it's a beautiful
place.
She could have kids with Loras,and now she's back to.
She has to stay in King'sLanding.
Marrying Tyrion was probablythe best thing for her in
(46:00):
hindsight.
Speaker 4 (46:02):
Because he could protect her.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
Because I don't think if Tyrion doesn't marry her,
then they would have figured outa way to do something to her.
They weren't going to let.
Sansa leave to Highgarden.
Speaker 3 (46:17):
I don't have anything else to add to that.
Speaker 2 (46:21):
I think that's it for our coverage of episode 5 of
season 3, kiss by Fire.
There's so many great scenes wejust talked about and it's
gonna be hard for me to pick myscene of the episode, so I'll
ask you first.
Speaker 3 (46:35):
Yeah, I can't not pick the Jamie Breehan scene.
That's my favorite scene.
Speaker 2 (46:39):
I can't I just love that last scene we just covered.
It's one of those 1a, 1b kindof things and I'm just gonna
give the edge to even though Ilove jamie's not confession, but
what would you call it theemotional.
He's letting everything out.
I'll just have the last scene,above it by like 0.1 okay yeah,
(46:59):
they're both they're bothincredible scenes.
Okay, how about your rating forthis episode?
Out of 10?
Speaker 3 (47:07):
I'll give it like an 8.5 to an 8.7 somewhere,
somewhere there maybe an 8.6.
Like right in between.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
Okay, what do you think it's rated on IMDb?
Speaker 3 (47:20):
Oh, I already know, I checked.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
Okay, the last one was 9.5.
This one was 8.9.
I'm actually going to go higher.
I'm going to go 9 out of 10.
Speaker 3 (47:30):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
It just flows very naturally, and by the end I go,
wow, that's really good, it allworks.
Speaker 3 (47:39):
So a and you don't.
By the end I go, wow, that'sreally good, it all works.
So a nine out of ten, fair.
You're convincing me to bumpthe score up a little bit, but
yeah, so that's fair.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
I can't disagree with that so we're officially
halfway through season three andour next episode for the
podcast we'll be discussingepisode six of season three,
called the climb.
Pretty obvious of what we'retalking about they're going to
be climbing the wall um, it'llbe interesting to revisit it for
me.
Speaker 3 (48:03):
Um, next episode, of course, and um, the rest of
season three, including the redwedding.
With this fresh perspective,having read the book, I can't
wait for us to to cover the restof season three and I hope you
guys are enjoying this journey,and I'll recap as much as we've
been enjoying talking about it.
So, thank you guys, so much forlistening to this episode of
Dancing with Dragons.
Be sure to follow us onInstagram at dancingwithdragons.
(48:25):
It's the up-to-date with thelatest Game of Thrones news.
It's the update to the latestnews from anything and
everything related to George'sworld, whether it's the books,
the shows and the sp-offs orupdates related to our podcast
and future episodes.
Be sure you can find everythingon instagram and, of course, be
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(48:46):
review or a comment as well, ifyou get the chance.
It would be appreciated.
Thank you again.
The blood of the First Men flows through my veins
as much as yours, boy.
I fought the Mad King for yourfather.
I fought Joffrey for you.
We are King Stark and Karstark.
That didn't stop you frombetraying me and it won't save
you now.
I don't want it to save me.
(00:23):
I want it to hold you to theend of your days.
Kneel my lord Rickard Karstark,lord of Karhold.
Here, in sight of gods and men,I sentence you to die.
(00:47):
Would you speak a final word?
Kill me and be cursed.
You are no king of mine.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Welcome back Fire and Blood, faithful to Dancing with
Dragons, the podcast where wemarch through Westeros one
episode at a time.
My name is Tony, here with myco-host, minwa, and today we're
diving deep into Season 3,episode 5, kissed by Fire.
This one's got it all secretcaves and first loves, kings and
killers, honor and executionand a bad scene that redefines a
villain.
(01:33):
Why don't we start our reviewof the fifth episode of game of
thrones, season three, kissed byfire?
It premiered april 28, 2013.
Written by brian cogman anddirected by Alex Graves.
Graves goes on to direct fourepisodes in season four, which
include the purple wedding it'snot called the purple wedding,
but we all know about thatOberyn and the mountain, the
(01:55):
trial by combat episode and theseason finale, and he does one
more in between.
For this episode, I felt likeit moves through a lot of
locations and the characters.
You know how we always haveissues with that.
We're like, well, there's toomany characters, there's too
many locations, but for thisepisode, I felt like it flowed
very naturally into the next.
(02:15):
You felt more interconnectedrather than being scattered.
Okay, kiss by fire is a phraseused by the wildlings to
describe people who arered-haired.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
I just want to jump in and say something about that.
Obviously, it's talking aboutsecret.
That's what the wildlingsdescribe redheads as they
consider it.
Good luck, or you're blessed.
If you're a redhead, you'reconsidered kissed by fire.
But there's a secret meaning orsomething that you could
overthink if you're a hardcorefan and just like to make
(02:47):
something out of nothing, likeme and some other fans online.
So people who are saying thatthe double meaning here is that
you know.
Obviously, in this episode wesee egret and john kissed for
the first time and since john istargaryen, he's a blood of the
dragon, he's tar, he's fire.
And Hegris was kissed by firein two ways because of her red
(03:08):
head and because she was kissedby Jon Snow, kissed by fire.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
My brain went to the Hound and he's traumatized by
fire.
And then you have BarryThundarian with the flaming
sword.
That just adds to the crazinessof this child by combat.
So that's what my brain wasgoing to when it said kids by
fire.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
Yeah, I think that makes more sense and that's
better than what I had.
I just thought that that was afunny double meaning that you
could think of when it comes toEgris.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Where should we start ?
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Let's start there with what you just talked about.
Let's start with the Hound andthe Brothers Without Banners and
Arya, because it's the firstscene of the show as well.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
I really enjoyed this scene.
The fight choreography is welldone.
The beautiful lighting thatreally enhanced the brightness
of the flames done the beautifullighting that really enhanced
the brightness of the flames.
I just love how you cut to ariaand she yells kill him with
such conviction and like I'venever seen aria that like to see
like she was like pissed, Ithink it all boils down to like
(04:17):
one.
You killed my friend two year.
You were a lab dog, literallyfor the Lannisters who hate my
family Like all that was boilingand it comes out in her Like
she wants.
She runs and tries to kill theHound herself.
Actually there's like threescenes in this cave and all well
done.
I just really enjoyed this partof the episode.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
So did I.
I think that it's actually kindof Arya kind of broke my heart
a little bit in this episodebecause, as you said, like we
can see her passion or, I guess,her anger towards the Hound,
but just to like jump to the endof the scene there when she,
when they talk about, you know,beric being resurrected and
Thoros and she's you know, she'sseeing this in front of her
(05:00):
eyes.
What she just tells them is soheartbreaking.
She said could you bring back aman without a head?
Not six times, just once.
It's a rare moment, I think,where we see our aria being
emotional because we haven'treally seen her, um, have a
moment like that for a while.
You reach see her wantingrevenge and you know, uh,
formulating her list and justsurviving.
(05:21):
But I think this is the firsttime that she's like really
sitting with her grief becauselike she has to face it almost
she has to see that other peoplecan be, are living this life
and are getting resurrected andyeah she hasn't, uh, had any
time to actually process, or,yeah, she's processed.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
He's been on the run since ned was executed.
But let me ask you this is itcheating to fight in a trial by
combat if you lose and have thelord of light mulligan of being
resurrected?
Speaker 3 (05:53):
I mean, I guess kind of in their world and their
religion they're like oh,whoever wins is like what their
god or gods uh, choose right,and then if that same power
bring back the the loser, then Iguess that's what's, what's
decreed too.
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (06:13):
like yeah I mean, I do give uh, beric and thoris
credit for sticking to the word.
Um, sticking to your word andoaths is very, very important in
this episode.
And also we have Gendry whowants to stay with the
Brotherhood and he kind of givesArya the speech of you know, I
want to be part of something.
(06:33):
I've never been part ofanything.
I've always had to work, I'vealways had a master, I've always
been people sold me.
I want to be part of somethingimportant.
And she kind of says well, youcould be with me, you know, rob
could help you and and you'd be,you'd be my family.
And I love the line that hesays you wouldn't be my family,
you'd be my lady, because hewould go back to being, I guess,
(06:54):
not a peasant, but he doesn'twant to be inferior to and he
wants to be part of somethingthat everybody's kind of equal.
And that's what the brotherhoodis.
They're not.
Yeah, they have a leader, butit's not like a class system.
As you know, if you go to riverrun and he goes, that obviously
he's gonna have to call her mylady, not my lady.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Yeah, so I, I get, I understand where he's coming
from and that kind of shocksaria a bit and she kind of it
takes her back a little bit likehuh yeah, I think that she
never really considered thathonestly before Gendry said that
Because in her mind, eventhough she's going to be a lady
and everything she's like, we'reall equal, we're all the same,
we can have the samerelationship, even though I'm
(07:37):
the lady of Winterfell, and Ithink that's the reason she
thinks that, because of how shelived in Winterfell, know, we
saw her for like an episode, Iguess, or two, um, before uh,
game of thrones really kickedoff and they were in winterfell.
She was just, you know, runningaround the yards was a very
homey environment, they were allone.
It didn't feel like they were,you know, like these untouchable
(07:58):
lords and ladies.
Um, yeah, like she, she wasvery connected with, with, um,
the northern people.
So, like I don't know, she toher there was no barrier,
whereas with gendry being inking's landing, there was an
extreme barrier between him and,like the common folk of people
of the area and the northernladies that lived there.
So I think that's just aninteresting contrast, um, and
(08:21):
something that's already neverconsidered before, because of
where she came from and speakingof people that come from
different backgrounds but areconnected and talk about oaths
and keeping their words.
Let's move on to john's no andegret, who we talked about in
the beginning of the episode.
Um, obviously I mentioned thisalready, but you know we see
john break his oath in thisepisode.
(08:42):
Um, we see him struggle with itquite a bit.
I guess you know we see Johnbreak his oath in this episode.
Um, we see him struggle with itquite a bit.
I guess you know, like,internally, and even more so in
the books, we see him like, Iguess I don't say panic over it,
but we see him kind of kind ofanxious and ashamed that he was,
you know, about to break hisvows and then he kind of
reminded himself like all theother brothers did the same
(09:03):
thing as well.
They, you know, it's known thatthe brother of the night's
watch got him one time, but forhim of course, it's different.
He feels, you know, panicked inthe book, I guess more you know
, because we see it in his pointof view that he's like a stark
son and he's doing this and I,if I remember correctly, I think
there was a moment where he waslike what would ned think?
But then he remembers that ned,you know, like fathered him
(09:24):
yeah yeah, I don't feel likeit's.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
I mean, if you're a hostage, right, basically you
could be killed at any moment toreally breaking your oath as a
brother of the night's watch.
If you never, if you thinkyou're gonna die soon yeah, I
mean, I don't know I wouldn'teven be thinking about the.
Night's Watch at the moment.
That's just me.
Yeah, it feels like if you are,in any moment's notice, be
(09:50):
killed in his mind, not going tosee the Night's Watch again, or
the wall.
Is it really breaking your oathor does he have to go through
with this so he can survive?
That's how he justifiesbreaking his oath.
Well, I have to do this If Icould get her by my side.
Or does he really fall in lovewith her?
Because, like he's, he goes uh,I was a maid, which is a weird
(10:12):
little.
There's.
No, uh, they don't use the termvirgin.
Obviously in westeros they justsay he took my.
What is it?
Maidenhood or that's?
That's the word.
Yeah, I think it was a funnymoment when she's talking about
her conquest and he goes yeah, Idon't want to hear it.
That's fine, which every guy'slike yeah, I don't want to hear
(10:33):
about any any, let's just talkabout the future now.
We don't want to hear aboutanything you've done.
No, but I also love the sceneprior to the cave.
Is that they're trying to stillinterrogate him for information
about how the patrols in all thecastles, how many of the
castles have watchers or peoplewatching Throughout the wall?
(10:56):
It was 700 miles or 700 miles,there's 19 castles and there's
only three of them that arearmed or being protected.
He does tell a little white liebecause he says there's 1,000
men in Castle Black and we knowthere's not 1,000 men.
I think when they left for theGreat Ranging with Mormont, when
(11:17):
he took like 300 guys up beyondthe wall, pretty much 90% of
those people died right upbeyond, beyond the wall.
Pretty much 90 of those peopledied right.
So realistically, there's only300 men guarding castle black
and I think he said it in such away that that they believe them
.
He's like I'm gonna kill youbecause he tells um, the guy
who's a warg for his name or no,that's the guy's name, right or
(11:41):
no?
Inell, I always forget.
I'm going to check, but anyway,I mean he's.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Orrell, orrell, or.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Ornell Ornell.
Ornell is probably like a brandname of an appliance.
So you get him breaking hisoath of lying, I guess, to he's
protecting his brothers.
Of course we're going toforgive him for lying because
he's thinking about other people.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
Like when you said oh oh, he wouldn't care about his
vows.
I think that's what he's notcaring about.
He doesn't care about lying ornot, and he he doesn't really
see that as serious as breakinghis vows with the eagerness you
know what I mean.
He's like this is a lie, I'mgoing to get killed anyways.
I might well just just lie andsay this thing, and I don't know
if it's true or not to him it's, it's a bigger deal that he
(12:27):
broke his vows with the egressbecause, especially because of
the trauma in his head of what,um, what could come of it, you
know what I mean.
Like I don't think of course wedon't see it in the show
because we're not in john's headthe way we are in the book.
But in the book I think he saidsomething like he was nervous
about like fathering a sonthat's not, that's illegitimate,
and that baby then living thetrauma of being illegitimate the
(12:50):
way that he was, you know.
So he was thinking deep, he waspanicking, he was like looking
years into the future of hislike hypothetical baby's trauma.
So it's like a turning pointfor John, you know, you know
what.
But we said so many thingsabout John at the end of the
episode I think he was happy.
This is one of the happiestmemories that he has ever had in
his life, something that he canlook back on for the rest of
his life.
(13:10):
So I'm at least happy for him.
But he's not the only one of hissiblings, I guess, to quote,
unquote, siblings.
That's panicking, going througha turning point in this episode
and this episode and making aquestionable ethical decision,
or like a dilemma, um, becauserob is going through it in this
(13:31):
episode or, like he, a hugeturning point for him to say
that he's um.
We included the audio clip ofhim at the beginning of this
episode and it's the momentwhere he decides to execute um,
ricard carstark.
Uh, just to recap, in case youmissed it, ricard car stark
killed the teenage lannisterboys, um, who were like
prisoners or hostages at thestark camp, and he killed them
(13:52):
as revenge for his sons who werekilled by jamie.
It was like out of anger almost.
It wasn't really like thosekids did anything and he was
getting revenge on themspecifically.
It was just that he wantedlannister blood immediately and
and Team Stark wasn't acting.
They haven't been acting in awhile.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
And this has been building up since last season.
Kar Stark has been foaming inthe mouth for so-called justice
and he kills poor TommenBaratheon.
I'm sorry, poor Tommen diestwice in the series.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
Yeah, yeah, the actor that plays Tommen.
He has two death scenes.
He plays one of those Lannisterboys.
So yeah, as punishment for that, rob's trying to be so ethical,
so noble.
So he orders Karstark tobasically be sent to the
dungeons and he kills all ofKarstark's men.
(14:49):
I believe Karstark has a verykind of epic line to Rob and he
says if Rob kills him he'd be akinslayer, because the Starks
and Karstarks are kin, they'rerelated.
And he says kill me and becursed.
You are no king of mine.
And Rob just then executes him,which is it's so heartbreaking,
it's epic, but it's soheartbreaking because we don't
(15:10):
want this for Rob and it's weunderstand where he's coming
from, being so noble,understanding how his mind works
, how Ned's mind works.
But, like everyone around, Rob.
We know it's an unwise decision.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
We know it's something that somebody like the
black fish should have just sethim down and be like, look,
maybe he could have gottenthrough to Rob, so why don't you
?
Because Edmure is telling him,hey, don't do this.
And he doesn't really respectEdmure, but the Blackfish
doesn't say anything and I thinkhim sitting him down and say,
(15:43):
look, I know what he did waswrong, but if your goal or
objective is to win this war,you cannot alienate these people
because they're in the show itsays that it's half of his
forces, but in the book it's not, as it's not as much, but still
it's not a good look to haveone of your key bannermen leave
(16:05):
the fight and I think it's justa dumb decision and it's
inexperience of not.
I have to stick to this, thisloyalty, this honor, and not
thinking about every singledomino that's going to fall
after you knock one down.
He's not thinking about that.
He's the ramifications of thisdeath is basically his downfall.
(16:28):
It's arguably the, the turningpoint we we can say we always
talk about.
When did Rob lose the war?
Was it the day that the Northclaimed him as the king, which I
think was silly, what?
That's not.
Yeah, that's not hisaspirations.
He wanted revenge or justicefor his father.
He should have said look, I'mnot a a king, we're just going
(16:50):
up there, kick some ass, get mysisters back.
But no, he, he took the monikerof king, whatever was it.
Did he lose the war when hemarried talisa?
And he, he broke a major oathto the phrase of saying, hey,
I'm going to marry one of yourdaughters.
Was that that key moment?
Probably Probably, because thenWalder Frey and his sick minds,
(17:11):
I'm just going to figure out away to betray you.
Or was it this?
I mean, it's all.
This was just the cherry on topof the cake For him.
He made so many bad decisionsin this episode Killing Karstarr
and then going.
I'm going to take Casterly Rock, that Casterly Rock.
What the heck With Tyrion inseason seven, robin, season
(17:35):
three, like who cares about that?
And then he goes.
I can't go through therewithout the phrase.
And then, boom, the wheels ofthe red wedding are set in
motion in this episode and itgoes when I hear the phrase and
I hear him and I go oh my, herehe comes, he's coming in three
episodes.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
I'm going to have to review that don't remind me, but
yeah, this is like I have to bereminded because this is just
like the beginning of the endfor Rob, like literally you said
it yourself like I think himlike there were two major
mistakes that he did that barelycould have recovered from, like
it was a very unlikely chancehe could have recovered from,
(18:11):
like it was a very, veryunlikely chance to get a recover
from them, the first one beinghis marriage and the second one
being um, um this I think hismarriage is a bit more
salvageable because, um, like hestill had the car starts with
him and especially in the books,he didn't marry some random
person from volantis or whatever.
He married like someone thatwas kind of noble, right, like
(18:31):
she was a he's talking about inthe novel yeah oh, jane west,
yeah you mentioned theblackfish and it's so weird.
Why didn't the blackfish sayanything, not to say about?
I never.
I never thought about thatbefore.
Like why didn't he stop it?
I know that we see caitlin andtelitha trying to stop him, but
(18:51):
he probably would have listenedto the Blackfish.
Why didn't we get that?
That's so weird.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Or maybe the Blackfish is one of those
stubborn guys with with oaths orlike respecting us.
This is my King, I'm not goingto.
His decision is final.
I think Rob would have listenedto him.
So why don't we leave oneself-made King to another in
Stannis and Stannis is again theactor I forgot his name, but
he's really good, has thatbrooding face so down so well.
(19:19):
And we get to meet his wife,queen Selyse.
That does show up in season two.
I think she's in the background.
You can see her in the scenesbut she has no dialogue.
So this is her official comingout party of.
That's my wife.
What I found weird was she'svery devout to the lord of light
(19:40):
, like super, super devout.
What was very distracting inthis scene was having the unborn
kids in those jars.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
Oh God, yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
It was very creepy, very disturbing, and that does
not happen at all.
That's just a show edition,which I thought was kind of
weird.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
And to add to the weirdness, did you see that it
was based on someone in reallife?
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Yes, I read that.
Yes, that's what the hell.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
I'm sorry, that's that's.
Yeah, I'm sorry, that's just,I'm not.
It's scary.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
I'm sorry, like that's just a freak me out and
you know somebody is in a cultor brainwash when your husband
says, oh, I broke my vow or myoath another scene about oaths
and vows with stannisis becausehe had relations with Melisandre
.
And she's like oh no, I know.
(20:38):
I love it what she was so forit and he's like he was kind of
shocked that she was so into it.
That's kind of weird.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
It made him more because he was kind of disgusted
with himself.
When he goes to to his wife forthe first time to salise, and
then when she doesn't mind, itkind of makes him like feel even
weirder about it.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Like, uh, okay uh, we get to meet his daughter,
princess Shireen.
It's one of those things whereyou see her, you're kind of
shocked because she has thishalf her face is covered in this
disfigurement and they neverexplain it.
We don't know what's going onand I think in season five, once
we figure out and we learnabout grayscale in season five,
(21:28):
we go oh, that's what, princessShireen?
Speaker 3 (21:31):
is.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
And she had it during her infancy but somehow, uh,
she survived it and the mostimportant thing about her
surviving it and having it stillher face is that it's not
contagious.
Usually if you have greyscaleyou can't be touched.
It's super contagious, uh, butfor her it's not so, and it
couldn't happen to a more lovely, adorable human being.
(21:57):
Because shireen is one of thosecharacters that I want to be
friends with and I think herrelationship with davos is one
of my favorites in the wholeshow.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
It's because such a sweet she's such a sweet girl
and her like I guessrelationship with Davos is one
of my favorites in the wholeshow.
It's because such a sweet,she's such a sweet girl and her
like I guess relationship withDavos is just as sweet as she is
.
Cause, you know, we, we, wefeel bad for Davos often, that
he is this very like kind ofloyal guy who was just trying to
like get by and he is yet notappreciated by the person that
(22:30):
he has faith in.
You know, like status neverreally shows him that
appreciation and we almost wantbetter for davos every time we
see him, you know, because we'relike we need, you need better
than stannis.
I've said that before in thepodcast too.
Um, so you kind of meet shireenand you kind of understand
davos is a bit like part of whyhe's there, is, I, I guess, for
(22:52):
her too, because where elsewould anyone treat Davos with
any softness, any care?
And I think that when he seesher he probably remembers his
son who he lost, and it's theonly friendship that either of
them have.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
I feel like Shireen.
Davos is the father figure thatShireen doesn't have in Stannis
.
Stannis is so closed off and Ifeel bad.
She's essentially an orphan.
She has nobody there to be withher, to talk to her, and then
having Davos as a friend isessentially a father figure.
(23:26):
I love that she goes down tovisit him in the dungeon and
it's one of my.
It's only like a minute, butjust this back and forth is very
, very touching.
Speaker 4 (23:36):
If your father knew You're a traitor, are you?
Speaker 5 (23:41):
I am child.
I disobeyed my king, yourfather, and now I'm paying the
price.
Speaker 4 (23:48):
I don't care, you're my friend, you must get bored
down here.
I brought you something to read.
It's about Aegon and hisdragons.
Aegon used to live here, didyou know that?
And the Targaryens built thiscastle.
Speaker 5 (24:00):
So they did.
Speaker 4 (24:01):
You can hide the book under your cloak.
It's a good one.
I'll bring you more.
Speaker 5 (24:05):
Thank you, my lady.
I'm sure it's a fine book, butit's wasted on me.
Speaker 4 (24:13):
Take it I.
It's a fine book but it'swasted on me.
Nick, I have more.
My lady, I can't read the words.
You can't, I'll teach you.
I'll come when Bert's on dutyand teach you.
It's easy, it'll be fun.
No, we can't.
Why not?
What will they do?
Lock us in cells?
I wouldn't know where to start.
(24:41):
At the beginning this word isegg on, and you see a, e and g
together like that.
It sounds like egg, and thetitle of the whole book is an
history of egg on the conquerorand I love that shireen is such
a fan of the Targaryens becauseshe loves all the books.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Season five, she tells her dad Stannis about the
Dance of the Dragons and sheread the book.
She just loves everythingdragons and Targaryens.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
Before we move on, I just want to clarify the fact
that I mentioned about Cindlease keeping the remains of her
of her sons preserved in jars,and how that's based on someone
in real life.
Um, it's not the exact samething.
I thought.
I thought that's what I read,but, um, uh, the director, or
like, sorry, the producer, briancogman, said that.
(25:27):
Um, it was inspired by anacquaintance who had the hands
of her stillborn son bronzed andkeeps them on the shelf.
So it's not this exact same.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
It's not like a jar.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
Yeah, not a jar, not a jar.
So I just wanted to clarifythat fact.
It's more real, more sad, but Ijust want to clarify that.
It's not the disturbing thingthat Sidious is doing, I guess.
So Shireen mentioned Targaryen,so let's move on to the
Targaryen, the best Targaryen,my Targaryen, my queen Daenerys.
(25:59):
You know, in the last episodeshe had one of the best scenes
for her character of all time,if not the best, when she frees
the unsudied.
And now we see her kind ofdealing with what happens right
after.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
She's crushing that Valyrian.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
She's using her Valyrian, as you said, not just
showing off to us I guess theviewers, and being like this is
what I've been keeping it allalong but also to Missandei,
because Missandei, you know, Ithink she wants to show off to
someone else that speaks herlanguage.
With Missandei, with heradvisors, jorah and Barristan,
(26:32):
and she meets Grey Worm.
She addresses them in lowValyrian and I think this is I
think it was in this episode orthe next where it's the first
time they make I think it's thenext one the distinction between
low Valyrian and high Valyrian.
But when she speaks to GreyWorm it is in low Valyrian,
which I guess is just what'sremained of the region and what
they communicate with us.
So when she talks to them, shesays that you know that they're
(26:52):
no longer slaves, they're free.
But Grey Worm refuses to likekind of change his name.
He keeps the name that he wasgiven as slave, grey Worm, which
is supposed to be like adegrading name.
That's what um Krasnus saidearlier, which is that they're
all given um, like bad names,like like Red Rat or something
like that you know what I meanJust to make them feel not human
(27:12):
.
So Danny is still confused asto why he's saying this, but
then he says that it's all outof respect for her because he
sees it as good luck.
He was freed while he carriedthis name.
He didn't want this originalname because he was enslaved
while he had that name.
So I think that Danny kind ofdoesn't really get it, but she,
(27:34):
you know, she hears this and shekind of feels, I guess maybe at
least that she's happy thatsomeone sees it as his luck
turning around.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
I do like the interaction between Jorah and
Selmy and I like how Selmy saysa man of honor keeps his vows
even if he's serving a drunk ora lunatic.
I'm just going to save thatline until we talk about Jamie
and Brienne, because it's veryimportant and I want to come
back to that he does say.
For one time in my life I had toserve somebody.
(28:04):
Who's what did he say?
Just or pure?
I forgot the line he said Doyou think she's the one?
And Jorah says says you knowyou believe in her.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
Yeah, with all my heart and just to clarify uh,
you asked about what barrisonsaid, how he described dan.
He says that just once beforehe dies, he wants to know what
it's like to serve with pride,fighting for someone he believes
in okay that's how he mentionstime.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Yeah, all right, I want us to move on, because
there's two very big scenes onethat's character changing, I
think for jamie, and that's theone in the bathtub, and we've
talked about this many times andwe're here.
We finally get to dissect it.
Speaker 5 (28:45):
So here's what jamie is telling rianne Tell me, if
your precious friend commandedyou to kill your own father and
stand by while thousands of men,women and children burned alive
, would you have done it?
Speaker 1 (29:05):
Would you have kept your oath then?
Speaker 5 (29:11):
First I killed the pyromancer and then, when the
king turned to flee, I drove mysword into his back.
Burn them all.
He kept saying, burn them all.
I don't think he expected todie.
He meant to band with the restof us and rise again, reborn as
(29:40):
a dragon, turn his enemies toash.
They still used it out to makesure that didn't happen.
I still is proud to make surethat didn't happen.
Speaker 4 (29:59):
That's where Ned Stark found me.
If this is true, why didn't youtell anyone?
Speaker 5 (30:19):
Why didn't you tell Lord Stark Stark, you think the
honorable Ned Stark wanted tohear my side?
He judged me guilty the momenthe set eyes on me.
By what right?
Speaker 4 (30:30):
does the both judge the lion?
By what right the king's there?
Speaker 2 (30:40):
jamie, my name's jamie you know, it's funny that
he says a heartwarming thing andhe's all that stuff and then
she goes, the king slayer yeah,literally that's my thing, but
like that's so wrong.
(31:01):
Um, no, I mean, that's sopowerful.
That moment and I there's onelittle moment in the beginning,
before we get into this, thisspeech is that when he gets into
the bathtub naked or whatever,brienne is, like you know,
covering her body, shielding herbody, right yeah, and very
nervous to be around him.
(31:21):
And then there's a moment wherehe takes a jab.
Renly says something oh, thisis why Renly and she gets up and
forgets about it.
She's not shy anymore becauseshe's so pissed that he
dishonored his name.
To me, that was a greatcontrast of her being, like
shielding her, but like she's sotimid.
That's it Getting up to thestrong.
I got a sense of like I'm goingto forget about being that
(31:43):
person because he just saidsomething about somebody I loved
and cared about and you're notgoing to disrespect them that
way.
Speaker 4 (31:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
And he actually says I'm sorry, like the true apology
.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
She appreciates this, I think.
That's really, I think, at thatpoint, like she believes him
when she she I don't want to sayshe trusts him fully.
But it's why I think Jamie wasable to open up, because there's
kind of that understanding thatthere's like a truth between
them, that it's like peacefulfor a while.
You know what I mean.
Like, yeah, you know.
We also have to remember thathe kind of helped save her
(32:18):
life's, had to come to say, frombeing assaulted in previous
episodes.
She knows that, like he already, that he has this good side,
she's accepting of him and herecognizes that and that's why
he was able to open up because,like he knows that she is being
that side of him, whereas if he,like other people, just choose
not to, even though they knowthat he might have a good side,
(32:40):
they prioritize the kink sayerthing.
You know, like they only seehim in one specific, narrow way.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
And I think, asking the question and turning it
around for her to actually thinkabout what would you have done
if Renly commanded you to killyour father and kill innocent
people?
Would you have done it?
Because he's your king andthat's an order and you have to
do whatever the king you know,and just think about it.
Well, I talked about Berensonsome and he said you know, you
(33:08):
have to keep your vows, even ifyou're serving a drunk or a
lunatic.
Yet Berenson didn't get anycrap for being loyal to the
Targaryens.
He was offered a promotion or ajob to keep his old job, you
know.
Yeah, jaime was branded like atraitor as soon as Ned Stark, or
because his supposed moralcompass is not the same.
(33:33):
So everybody's just passingthis judgment on him because he
broke his oath, even though inthe truth he saved thousands of
people.
So I think jamie, at this pointhe has suffered for his crimes
and we saw one that's funny Ithought about.
You saw one resurrection andthen you kind of see another one
, but this less literalobviously.
(33:54):
Um, yeah he's not the Kingslayer, he's not the man without honor
.
No more in Brienne's eyes he'sJaime to everybody else he's
still the Kingslayer, but to her, I think, just saying that to
her because he knows that she'sso honorable, I think that makes
(34:18):
him feel okay, and maybebecause he's probably thinking
to himself I'm going to die soon.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
Yeah, that's true and like I like that you said that
too.
That's just like a rebirthalmost for Jamie, because for me
this was like I do agree, and Ithink that this is the first
time in the show we reallyreally start to see how complex
Jamie is.
You know, like you said, heserved for his crimes and now
(34:43):
we're kind of peeled to our firmand we see who he really is.
That's the thing.
We're being introduced to thegray area.
I think you know what I mean.
We're seeing that Jamie hasthis side, that he saved the
city and he makes us questionhim and everything that we know
about him alongside Brienne.
That's what I'm trying to sayis that it was more powerful to
(35:04):
see this as current Jamie sayingthe story rather than, um, it's
being a flashback, because Isaw this a criticism of this
episode.
Someone said I I would havepreferred it as a flashback, but
I think it's more powerfulseeing this as current Jamie
saying the story, because we'reseeing the person we know now
like the villain and just likeall of that, like kind of being
(35:28):
melted away along with the dirton his body.
You know what I'm saying?
Like we see it in front of oureyes.
We see the hurt of that Kings'sLair legacy.
In Nicolai Coster-Waldau's eyes, the actor's eyes, we see how
that burden kind of weighed onhim ever since that happened.
It's the first time that he'sopening up about it.
I don't know if it's canonical,but it feels like it.
(35:48):
You know, like that someone isactually listening to him and
hearing him and he's sovulnerable.
He's not wearing any clothes,he's like you know, know, he
lost a limb, he's.
We just see all of that king'splayer identity being melted
away in him like kind of justbeing, as you said, reborn.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
So I think that that was so powerful, that was
excellent all right, let's headdown to king's landing, and
there's actually a lot of quickscenes here, but two major ones
that I really want to focus on.
So let's, uh, do the quickscenes.
There's one with lot of quickscenes here, but two major ones
that I really want to focus on.
So let's do the quick scenes.
There's one with Cersei andBaelish.
Cersei is you know, we'vetalked about her being fed up
with the Tyrells.
(36:26):
She just can't stand thesepeople.
She knows they're plottingsomething, so she enlists the
help of Baelish.
She goes, yes, and she goes.
Well, I hope you do a betterjob than finding Aria.
She kind of jabs him a littlebit and I think what happens is
that Littlefinger sends one ofhis I say male workers to kind
(36:47):
of seduce Loras Tyrell.
What I found is that when Lorasends up in bed with think the
guy's name is Oliver, is that alot of people were upset, like
online.
Is that you know, loris wasloved, friendly, so much like he
, that was his, the love of hislife, and for him to just get in
(37:08):
bed with somebody like that soeasily, it's just it dilutes his
storyline with with renly.
But then I read that thedirector had planned this major
scene of Loras regrettingsleeping with Oliver.
He did it, but right after it'sjust like I can't believe I did
this with cutting that out.
It kind of leaves a sour tasteof of Loras doing that, so
(37:34):
anyway.
So the whole point of Oliverseducing him was to get some
information from the Tyrells andLoras in bed naked he goes.
Oh yeah, by the way, you knowthey want me to marry Sansa.
Then we get to one of myfavorite scenes in this in the
season is having twoheavyweights of intellect and
sass and wit with Olenna andTyrion.
(37:57):
Tyrion and Olenna are talkingabout the wedding and they're
talking about the expenses.
It's poor padra, she, she justscolds all these people who work
around.
I want to say like servants,but she's like where'd you go?
She asked for something.
He comes back, I think oneminute later and she's where'd
you go, volantis, to get this?
Speaker 3 (38:19):
Yeah, oh my God, I literally wrote that down as
being a really funny line.
I wanted to say it too.
It's so funny, it's so real,it's so like sassy old lady.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
Yeah, but I mean she was gone for like maybe two
minutes tops.
I mean that's fast service.
In my opinion, there's animportant line that Olena says
is that she so eloquentlydescribes how the rich and
powerful provide distraction inorder for the hungry not to turn
(38:52):
on them.
And we need these distractionsbecause, if not, these people
will have nothing to do, and ifthey have, nothing to do.
Speaker 4 (39:03):
All they're going to think about is getting rid of us
?
Speaker 2 (39:04):
Yeah, that's why you know you have the tournaments
and you have this.
Is you want people to bedistracted from?
Oh, by the way, yeah, I haven'teaten in a week, but yeah,
there's a tournament tomorrow.
I guess I need to watch that.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
She is and I think that, like it showed that she
was.
Uh, you know, we see it in theprevious episode too, and I
think that the previous one orthe one before it's when
marjorie like leads joffrey tothe people and lets them cheer
for him you know, we talkedabout that scene um, and when
cersei kind of feels like shestarts to lose control over
joffrey and, you know, tywin, itjust has to like what's good,
someone got to him.
(39:37):
So, anyways, I think that'swhen we hear Elena say this, we
are like, yeah, that's whereMarjorie got us from, that's
where she learned her lessonfrom.
She's been listening to hergrandmother, um, because
something that Marjorieunderstood and like that, the
point of being loved by likegoing and distracting them and
talking to them and stuff likethat.
So, yeah, olena's lessons.
(40:00):
Um, I wish we got more sceneswith tyrian and olena.
Yeah, like it's such a wastethat I don't know, maybe there's
something I'm forgetting about,but I feel like I just wish we
saw more and more and more,because you have these two
really sassy, clever characters.
Who wants as many scenes withthem as possible?
Speaker 2 (40:14):
yeah, tyrian tries to say you know we're spending a
lot of money, and Alanna's like,yeah, but by the way, I'm
providing this, I'm providingthis with the house time.
I was providing this many sheep, this many livestock, this much
amount of food, million,whatever, million, this million
that you know, all thesesoldiers, all these, and he goes
oh yeah, I forgot, we'reproviding.
(40:36):
I mean they.
And he goes oh yeah, I forgot,we're providing.
I mean they're sustaining thecity with their contributions to
King's Landing, and she goesyou know what?
Whatever, let me just pay forhalf of it.
Let's move on to the last sceneof the episode.
I know I sound like a brokenrecord because I always say, oh,
this is one of my favorites,but this scene has three of the
(40:57):
best actors in the whole show.
And it's Tywin.
Nor should it be yours.
Speaker 4 (41:01):
She's a child she's flowered, I assure you, she and
(41:23):
I have discussed it at length.
Speaker 5 (41:24):
There you see, you will wed her, bed her and put a
child in her.
Surely you're capable of that.
And if I refuse, you want it tobe rewarded for your valour in
battle.
Sansa Stark has a finer rewardthan you could ever dare hope
for, and it is past time.
You were, we d, I was wed.
Oh, don't you remember Only toowell.
(41:48):
You should be thanking the godsfor this.
This is more than you deserve.
Tyrion will do as he's bid, aswill you.
Speaker 4 (42:01):
What do you mean?
Speaker 5 (42:03):
You'll marry Ser Loras.
I will not.
The boy is heir to HighgardenTyrion will secure the North.
You will secure the Reach.
No, I won't do it.
Yes, you will.
You're still fertile.
You need to marry again andbreed.
Speaker 3 (42:17):
I am.
Speaker 5 (42:17):
Queen Regent, not some broodmare.
You're still fertile.
You need to marry again andbreed.
I am Queen Regent, not somebroodmare.
You're my daughter.
You will do as I command andyou will marry Loras Tyrell and
put an end to the disgustingrumors about you once and for
all.
Speaker 4 (42:31):
Father, don't make me do it again, please, not
another word.
Speaker 5 (42:36):
My children.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
You disgraced the Lannister name for far too long.
My children, the way you saidthat was such disdain, such
disappointment.
Speaker 3 (42:59):
You felt for her like a little ounce of sympathy when
she says, don't make me do itagain.
Yeah, that's the thing that's.
When she says, don't make me doit again yeah, that's the thing
, that's the thing, don't makeme do it again.
Because, but, honestly, likeyou feel for tyrian just as much
too, because, yeah, like it'sfor him, it's an again situation
, as he says too, you know, liketyrian bringing up his past too
and how that was so hurtful forhim as well.
And I think with tyrian, theadditional element that like
kind of makes it, adds to thesadness, I guess, of it isn't
(43:20):
just the fact that he, hedoesn't want to see it.
He sees it as like a misfortunefor sansa.
Cersei doesn't see it as amisfortune for doris she's just
thinking that she doesn't wantto be in that situation.
But tyrian, he feels guilt andhe feels shame about that.
And it makes us feel for tyrianmore because he thinks about
sansa, I think, almost before hethinks about himself yeah, he's
thinking about others.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
And and the way tylen says the girl's happiness is
not of my concern, it's socutting like I don't care, just
wet her, bed her, and just dowhat you have to do because we
need to have the north and andjust like his commanding
performance and he's just amaster like.
Speaker 3 (43:59):
He shows why he's like a master strategist playing
, playing his children likepieces on the chessboard not
just that, like you also see,like cersei, like of course she
does something, she acts so smugand everything and then just
goes back against her.
You know what I mean.
Like she's getting a taste ofher own medicine, basically.
But it's not just that, it'salso like like very, very flawed
(44:21):
I don't want to say feminism,but you know what I mean.
Like she's like oh don't, I'mnot a broodmare, I'm not just
someone that's, that's going tolike just bring kids and going
to be used for.
Came to Sansa.
She was like oh yeah, she'sflowered, she'll be okay.
What?
Speaker 2 (44:37):
else do you want?
Yeah, Tywin's like you're stillfertile, you need to breed.
Speaker 3 (44:45):
It's so like, yeah, it's so direct, but she was
speaking of Sansa in that waytwo seconds ago.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
Yeah, and here's the difference between characters.
You have Cersei being so smugbecause Tyrion has to do this,
and once tywin is talking tocersei, tyrian, this says
nothing.
He's his face is blank becausehe he doesn't find joy like that
in in seeing his sister, eventhough he hates her.
(45:11):
He, he's not.
He could have been like, youknow what I mean.
Like yeah, yeah, how does thatkarma taste?
You know he could have beenlike ha, ha, ha, ha ha.
Speaker 4 (45:17):
You know what I mean.
Like yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:20):
How does that karma taste?
You know he could have beenlike that, but anyway, yeah it's
.
It's one of my favorite scenes.
I watch it like every once in awhile, cause it's the acting is
, is the dialogue, everythingabout it's just incredible.
We'll see what happens.
Because now again we'rethinking about Sansa and this
poor kid, like she can't catch abreak.
(45:40):
Earlier in the episode we'rethinking, oh, she's gonna marry
Loras, she's gonna live inHighgarden, she's gonna be uh
and she's gonna live out her herdays in the Highgarden as as
sort of a well, a princess and alady, and it's a beautiful
place.
She could have kids with Loras,and now she's back to.
She has to stay in King'sLanding.
Marrying Tyrion was probablythe best thing for her in
(46:00):
hindsight.
Speaker 4 (46:02):
Because he could protect her.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
Because I don't think if Tyrion doesn't marry her,
then they would have figured outa way to do something to her.
They weren't going to let.
Sansa leave to Highgarden.
Speaker 3 (46:17):
I don't have anything else to add to that.
Speaker 2 (46:21):
I think that's it for our coverage of episode 5 of
season 3, kiss by Fire.
There's so many great scenes wejust talked about and it's
gonna be hard for me to pick myscene of the episode, so I'll
ask you first.
Speaker 3 (46:35):
Yeah, I can't not pick the Jamie Breehan scene.
That's my favorite scene.
Speaker 2 (46:39):
I can't I just love that last scene we just covered.
It's one of those 1a, 1b kindof things and I'm just gonna
give the edge to even though Ilove jamie's not confession, but
what would you call it theemotional.
He's letting everything out.
I'll just have the last scene,above it by like 0.1 okay yeah,
(46:59):
they're both they're bothincredible scenes.
Okay, how about your rating forthis episode?
Out of 10?
Speaker 3 (47:07):
I'll give it like an 8.5 to an 8.7 somewhere,
somewhere there maybe an 8.6.
Like right in between.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
Okay, what do you think it's rated on IMDb?
Speaker 3 (47:20):
Oh, I already know, I checked.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
Okay, the last one was 9.5.
This one was 8.9.
I'm actually going to go higher.
I'm going to go 9 out of 10.
Speaker 3 (47:30):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
It just flows very naturally, and by the end I go,
wow, that's really good, it allworks.
Speaker 3 (47:39):
So a and you don't.
By the end I go, wow, that'sreally good, it all works.
So a nine out of ten, fair.
You're convincing me to bumpthe score up a little bit, but
yeah, so that's fair.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
I can't disagree with that so we're officially
halfway through season three andour next episode for the
podcast we'll be discussingepisode six of season three,
called the climb.
Pretty obvious of what we'retalking about they're going to
be climbing the wall um, it'llbe interesting to revisit it for
me.
Speaker 3 (48:03):
Um, next episode, of course, and um, the rest of
season three, including the redwedding.
With this fresh perspective,having read the book, I can't
wait for us to to cover the restof season three and I hope you
guys are enjoying this journey,and I'll recap as much as we've
been enjoying talking about it.
So, thank you guys, so much forlistening to this episode of
Dancing with Dragons.
Be sure to follow us onInstagram at dancingwithdragons.
(48:25):
It's the up-to-date with thelatest Game of Thrones news.
It's the update to the latestnews from anything and
everything related to George'sworld, whether it's the books,
the shows and the sp-offs orupdates related to our podcast
and future episodes.
Be sure you can find everythingon instagram and, of course, be
sure to add, listen anddownload our episodes on your
preferred listening platformsand give us a rating and a
(48:46):
review or a comment as well, ifyou get the chance.
It would be appreciated.
Thank you again.
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