July 1, 2025 • 48 mins
We continue our journey, looking back at Game of Thrones Season 3, Episode 6. In this episode titled "The Climb", a political chess match intensifies as four houses negotiate alliances through marriages. At the same time, Jon and the wildlings face a perilous climb up the Wall, all underscoring Littlefinger's chilling philosophy that "chaos is a ladder.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Do you know what the realm is?
It's the thousand blades ofAegon's enemies, a story we
agree to tell each other overand over till we forget that
it's a lie.
But what do we have left oncewe abandon the lie?
Chaos, a gaping pit waiting toswallow us all.
(00:24):
Chaos isn't a pit.
Chaos is a ladder.
Many who try to climb it failnever get to try again.
The fall breaks them and someare given a chance to climb, but
(00:57):
they refuse.
They cling to the realm or thegods, or love Illusions.
Only the latter is real.
The climb is all there is.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Hello everyone, welcome to Dancing with Dragons,
your go-to podcast foreverything related to Game of
Thrones, house of the Dragon andthe rest of George RR Martin's
A Song of Ice and Fire universe.
No-transcript that episode.
(01:54):
Life kind of got in the way forboth tony and me with some
personal stuff, busy schedulessort of snuck up on us, those
busy schedules.
But we're back and we'refinally ready to jump into
today's episode.
Today we'll be picking up wherewe left off, continuing season
three's discussion with episodesix, the Climb.
The episode first premiered onHBO on May 5th 2013, and it was
(02:15):
written by our amazingshowrunners David Benioff and DB
Weiss, and it was directed byAlex Sakharov.
Sakharov was the director ofphotography for season one of
Thrones, but he also directedthe season two episode, what is
Dead May Never Die, and he wouldgo on to direct the season four
episodes the Laws of Gods andMen and Mockingbird.
In today's episode, tywin plansunions for the Lannisters,
(02:36):
melisandre visits the Riverlands, rob wants to repair his
alliance with House Frey Rose,bolton makes a decision about
Jamie Lannister and, in total,four houses consider make or
break alliances, all while JohnYgritte and the Wildlings face a
formidable climb.
And let's get started, tony,how are you?
Are you okay?
Speaker 3 (02:56):
I'm doing okay.
I wanted to let the listenersknow that every time you hear
minwa say our amazingshowrunners, I see her eyes.
They're rolling yep the sarcasmis brilliant, but uh yeah, um
(03:16):
no doing.
Well, I'm happy to be recording, therapeutic in a way after the
last few weeks, so I'm happy tobe back here and I wanted to
add, uh to our amazingshowrunners that I did read that
this episode, according to them, marked the turning point where
the game shifts from battlesand rebellion to pure
(03:36):
psychological warfare.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
When review was seeing the episode of
remembering it, it does makesense it does make sense when
you said that my first likeinstinct was to sorry but argue
and be like, which was alwaysthat way.
But they never understood it.
But I don't think that it'sthat um like it is true because
you know, we did like forseasons one and two.
One was mainly just ned's storykind of.
(03:59):
You know, everything was kindof happening in the background
of that, except for danny'sstory.
And then for season two it wasabout Blackwater.
It didn't feel, as I guess, touse their word psychological or
manipulative, and planning andscheming.
All of that did exist, but itwasn't really at the forefront,
I think, until now.
So, yeah, that makes sense,even though my first instinct
(04:20):
was to argue with them abouttheir own show.
So, sorry about that.
But yeah, please, please, go on.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
When doing my notes for this episode, I come up with
a lot of articles and like onthe wiki, like of people saying
that this was like the not theworst episode, but the least
favorite of people.
And I watching this episode andgoing what are they talking
about?
This is a really good episode.
This episode and going what arethey talking about?
(04:47):
This is a really good episode.
This is the scheming and theplotting and felt like every
scene almost was pushing thestory.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Yeah, you know some amazing scenes in this episode
it is a pivoted point, as theysaid, and does kind of move the
story along.
But I think that there are alsosome like details in this
episode that probably shouldhave been, should have come back
into play, um in the future ofgame of thrones, and I will uh
touch on that point again lateron the episode.
(05:11):
But I'm gonna start off, uh,with this point as well um with
sam and gilly.
So they're beyond the wall, youknow, we saw them skipping.
Craster's creep, creep,craster's, creep, craster's keep
.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
No, actually that's better.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Yeah, he is a creep, yeah so we saw them escape
craster the creep.
Um, and basically sam andgillia are camping and he shows
her the dragon glass dagger thathe found at the fists of the
first man and basically talksabout castle black and that
dragon class dagger.
Like it does come into playlater on, but I'm gonna get into
(05:45):
this when we eventually talkabout season eight, like it was
never as central to the story asI wanted it to be, because it
just goes nowhere.
Um, so I, I like it's one ofthose bittersweet details that's
included because, like, like,thank you for including it, I
just wish you did something withit.
Um, but yeah, so that's wheresam is, he's safe with gilly and
the baby, and the wilding party, led by torment, continue to
(06:08):
scale the wall and prepare theirdaunting climb, you know, and
egret kind of tells john thatshe kind of senses that he's
still loyal to the night's watch.
I don't like, I feel like hekind of feels relieved but
scared at the same time, becauseit's like oh, then she still
loves me, then this is true loveand maybe I will get like
happily ever after.
But at the same time it's like,you know, he knows that it's
(06:30):
impossible, because then what'she gonna do now?
He has the love of his life,but his duty is like coming into
play.
More than ever, his duty is thenight's watch.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
He has to stay he has to stay with him.
He has to betray her.
You ever seen those comedyshows or movies where somebody's
trying to figure out what to doand then the devil appears on
one shoulder and then the angeland they're trying to convince
someone what to do?
That's John.
Like I love her, but in lovingher I'm going to betray my
(07:00):
brothers.
Yeah, but I wanted to go backto Sam and I just, I just want
to say that he's one of thoseinnocent and kind souls, that I
just love Sam and he's soaccommodating to Gilly and it's
probably because he's in love.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
He's smitten.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Yeah, he's smitten, that's perfect.
I wanted to say that I might bemistaken, but I think this is
the first time we hear about theactual dimensions of the wall,
like he was telling her oh, it's700 foot wide, it's made of ice
.
Then I think this is the firsttime we hear him talk about
where he's from, because thenshe's like oh, I knew you were
(07:40):
highborn like all our servantsand this and you know what, back
when, I was younger, as a childI think he says something in
season one but we don't reallyknow, like where he's from, like
he's you know house Tarly andall that stuff.
So I do like that scene.
It was quite nice to see themjust relaxing and it wasn't a
(08:01):
quick, it was like four or fiveminutes scene With Jon and Ygr
egret like I love egret sayingI'm your woman now you're loyal
to me.
Forget about everybody else soI thought it was a great she's.
Uh, what do you call thespitfire?
Speaker 2 (08:18):
yeah, well, she's kissed by fire.
That's what I said of the lastepisode, wasn't it so?
Speaker 3 (08:23):
but I think that the scenes of the climbing is very
well done.
It's full of tension, suspense,action.
You have somebody who waswilling to basically try to
murder them in the wall.
I forget the guy's name, theguy who was at work.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Oral.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
Oral yeah, yeah, yeah .
So he's pretty much trying tokill them and saying not to save
them.
But when you think about it,when you're climbing a wall that
high, you're going to have tomake some tough choices.
And well, better you than me, Iguess.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Yeah, better like the crow than any of the others.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
And I also want to point out, with the music.
I mean the music is one of thebest things about the show, but
it really, it really elevates.
You know the climbing elevate,uh the scene.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
So the scene with Sam was brief, but we also get
another very brief moment withBran in the North.
But just before we move on toanywhere else in Westeros um, we
don't really get much in thescene we see Jojen experiencing
a seizure.
You know he's still with themon their journey, uh, and Mir
explains that you know this isbecause Jojen has visions, the
same way Bran does, and Jontells Jojen tells Bran that in
(09:34):
his vision he saw Jon on thewrong side of the wall,
surrounded by enemies.
That's basically it.
Um, of course there's nocontext there.
So Bran at this point doesn'tknow, like Jon's story and story
and like that he's undercoverand he's probably just concerned
and that's it really.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
That's it for Bran and Jojo.
I do have in the scene we haveMira and Osha just bickering
back and forth.
Which?
Is kind of funny Like oh, youdon't know how to use a knife,
you know.
It's just like back and forthtrying to like one-up each other
in insults and brand is all.
Please, please, just gettogether.
(10:10):
Everybody, love each other.
We have one mission, one goal.
We can't be fighting and allthat.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
It's always nice to have like those moments of
levity in Game of Thrones,because we need it.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
And just you have like Hodor, hodor, hodor.
Like he's like calm downeverybody.
That was just the same.
Calm down as well.
He's like I don't likeconfrontation.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Yeah, and then you have this going on right, like
this kind of lights not thatserious moment but then also
happening somewhere in the runes, which I don't like talking
about is a very, very darkmoment, which proves why we need
kind of lightheartedness inGame of Thrones 2, which is
what's going on with Theon, andwhat do you have to say about
that?
I think I made a promise at thebeginning of Season 3 that it's
(10:53):
just very hard for me to talkabout Theon and what he's going
through this season because Ican barely watch his scenes.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
So I can't.
I thought about, which I toldyou or we started recording.
Is that when watching thisepisode, this episode, this
scene with Theon and Ramsey, whohas not been revealed- yet to
us it reminded me of the DarkKnight, with Alfred telling you
know, batman or Bruce Waynesaying that some men aren't
looking for anything logicallike money.
They can't be bought, bullied,reasoned or negotiated with.
Some men just want to watch theworld burn.
Ramsey, he's like there'snothing you can offer him to say
, oh please, I'll give you this.
(11:34):
I'll tell you that he's likeyou have nothing to negotiate
with.
I just want to see you cry andbe in pain and I want to torture
you.
It's just like next levelsadistic.
You know, he says.
The only reason I'm torturingyou is because I enjoy it.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Yeah, it's being evil for the sake of being evil.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
There's nothing to accomplish in in torturing him,
this man, and he's just like.
I'm just going to do it becauseI like it, which I laugh
because it's so scary and it'slike okay I laugh because it's
scary and then you have anotherscene.
Towards the end we have anothersadistic monster who will
parallel each other, one in thenorth, one in the south, with
(12:18):
joffrey, and we'll get to thatwhen we get to the king's
landing portion but yeah, I willget back to it then.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
But like I was gonna say that joffrey, like you can
at least somewhat blame it onhis genetics and his stuff, like
that.
You know, like there there issome like yeah, and like maybe
understandable, like small pointwith ramsey, it's for the sake
of being even nothing else, likebut can you think about
ramsey's childhood?
Speaker 3 (12:41):
I mean, I'm sure he he was poor, he had to, you know
, scavenge for any kind of thing.
His father wasn't there becausehe's quote a bastard, so he
probably didn't have a greatupbringing as well.
That's what it led him to be,so him.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
And that's really it from the North for this episode.
So let's head to the Riverlandsand see where Arya's at.
You're a witch, you're, solet's head to the Riverlands and
(13:45):
see where Arya is at.
I mentioned at the beginning ofthis episode that I do agree
that was pivotal, but alsoincluded details that went
nowhere, and that Melisandrescene was a detail that went
nowhere.
That's what I was referring towhen she says that Arya, she
sees in Arya's eyes, the eyes ofmany others.
Okay, she might have seen thatArya will use that ability or
that she will have that ability,but it kind of went nowhere.
Or that she would have thatability, but it kind of went
(14:08):
nowhere and it kind of wasbarely a thing.
After season seven.
Season eight, I think, was whenit was nothing After she killed
the Freys.
That was it.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
Well, she did kill the Night King.
He has blue eyes.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Oh, whatever, whatever, it should have never
been her.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
That's one of those things where people say, oh,
this is a great foreshadowing,and I'm thinking B&B, they were
not that far ahead.
This was like 2014, 2015.
And that was four years fromthe, or maybe five years from
the actual ending of the show.
And remember that George wasstill a part of the process
(14:45):
during this season and the next.
So it's just a coincidence thatshe says you'll be shutting
blue eyes and that they have her, unless they went back and go.
Well, you know what would be soamazing If Arya came.
I came because you knowMelisandre says she's going to
shut blue eyes.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Anyway, they didn't even do that effort, I'm telling
you.
They just said you know what'sgoing to.
What was their dumb phrase,sorry, which was like what will
subvert expectations?
That's what they used.
No-transcript time.
(15:52):
She speaks in this episode andshe says something that really
goes anywhere.
Of course that's melissandra.
All the time she says this isgoing to happen, that's going to
happen, and nothing everhappens, um, which of course is
commentary.
We should get to in anotherepisode, um, like a deep dive
into the lord of lights, uh,religion, or to melisandre, but,
um, something that she saysalso that goes nowhere is
actually so funny that I wrotelol in my notes.
(16:14):
She tells gendry, you will makekings rise and fall.
Okay, okay, okay, melisandre,he really will.
I guess he will.
I don't know what's gonna do inanother universe, in your
delululand, but whatever, um,but there's something actually
it sounds, it sounded good itsounds good.
(16:35):
Sounds good doesn't meananything, um, but there's
something actually that she saysthat I kind of forgot if it was
a detail or not, because Ican't recall anything.
But when she kind of meets thebrotherhood and she speaks to
Thoros, she tells him, like whathappened about the mission to
convert Roberts to the Lord ofLight's religion?
And he was like, oh, he failedor whatever.
But was that a thing?
(16:56):
I don't remember that.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
No, because we see Beric for I think half a second
and I think it's when Ned is onthe Iron Throne and he's
demanding the Mountain's Headfor treason and he sends Beric
to find, and that's pretty muchit what we learned about Beric.
(17:21):
We don't know about any plot ofhim Because we don't mean
Thoros of season three, so wedon't know about them trying to
convert Robert or anybody in thecouncil to the Lord of Light.
But I do like that, this scenewith Melisandre she just shows
up, which is a show invention,just to add.
(17:44):
It's the first time High Verianhas was identified as such.
This low valerian was kind ofthe plot point of now.
His watches ended with denarisand it was just simply referred
to as valerian.
So this is the first time yousee somebody they're talking in
an extended dialogue.
It's also the first time thatthe Valyrian, Valar Margulis, is
(18:07):
given its proper response ValarDohaeris on screen.
So neither term is translatedin subtitles, however, and we
all both know one is all menmust die and Valar Dohaeris is
all men must serve.
So that's the first time wehear people say it to each other
, and I think we also hear it inthe end of season four, when
(18:30):
Arya gets on the boat and shehas the coin and she tells the
captain of the ship,Valamorgulus, and he looks at
the coin and he goes ValadoJarez.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
So I may be mistaken, so don't quote me on that.
I'm just remembering that scene.
Yeah is another.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
I remember it that way too, so don't worry okay
yeah, it's, it's funny.
I have another note aboutminisandra that I that just
popped up too, which is that youknow she is kind of saying one
of these not like kind ofweightless foreshadowing moments
, but uh, what I think is funnyto see kind of in this episode,
or at least in this moment, wasthat we kind of see her uh get
(19:12):
jealous or like kind of getsoffended because she kind of
discovers, you know, okay, sheknows that Thoros is of the same
religion as her and he's kindof like a priest where she's a
priestess, um, but she finallyfinds out about Beric Dondarrion
and how he's died six times andlike been revived seven times.
And she gets jealous fromThoros a little bit, saying that
(19:33):
you should not have that kindof power.
And I like seeing that.
I think melissandra kind ofneeded that like um, that like
embarrassment or humiliation alittle bit, just because she's
been so drunk on power, you know, like recently, you know with
sanis and everything she's justbeen so like she thinks she's
she's untouchable.
So I think that she kind ofneeded to come back down to
earth a little bit, and that wasa nice moment to see.
(19:55):
But I like Thoris' answer too,which was basically saying that
it's not that he's favored bythe Order of Light, it's that he
only gives favors when he deemsit fit to do that.
He could have just not answered.
But let's move on from Arya toher sibling, her older rob,
(20:20):
who's also in the riverlands,not too far away, um, but rob,
as I mentioned the beginning ofthe episode, he is still there
trying to like salvage his plan,even though at this point it's
already like he's already lost.
You know, we that's what Imentioned in previous episodes
um, but he's trying to salvageany kind of ally or like
relationship that he can.
And of course this is the likewhen you say make or break.
He thinks this is the make orbreak one and obviously we know
(20:42):
it's going to be the break onethat's going to like solidify
kind of his fate, which is himtrying to repair his alliance
with a phrase, unfortunately,and it's funny that the guys,
guys, no shade to them.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
I'm sure they're great actors, but they look like
they're Freys.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
No shade to them.
And then you say that when theFreys are supposed to be like
this really ugly house, thateverybody wants to avoid a
marriage they embody house Frey.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
Oh my God.
I do want to say somethingabout Edmure, because people say
oh he's so annoying, but I I Ikind of get where he's coming
from in this episode and thiswhen, yeah, when he refuses to
marry the, the yeah he's beingforced to marry some random
freak out just because robcouldn't keep it together and I
(21:31):
I do.
I found this quote from thailandI think it's thailand, or maybe
it was tyrian.
They says in westeros thebattlefield wins glory, but the
marriage bed, that the councilchamber and the dining hall,
that's where kings are broken,which is kind of nice.
Of of just the the politicking,is where everything could be
(21:52):
like.
You can do all you want in thebattlefield, you could be the
strongest, whatever, but when itcomes to actually losing or
winning, you have to figure outa way to compromise and not be
so hard-headed as Rob wants tobe when it comes to certain
things.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Yeah, yeah, that's true's true.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
Right, you know rob stark, he's a badass in battle,
but off the he's kind of messy.
He's trying to keep peopletogether, which is hard enough,
and then he goes and chops offcar stark's head and screws
their alliance and then he fallsfor the cute.
I mean, come on it, just itgets.
It gets progressively annoyingto watch these episodes where
(22:35):
Rob has so much promise.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Yeah, I agree with you.
I agree with you.
I will play the devil'sadvocate just for a little bit
and just share the flip side ofeverything that you mentioned.
So for Rob it does get annoyingside of everything that you
mentioned.
So for rob it does get annoyingand I think it's more annoying
on screen than it is in the bookbecause rob is still a teenager
.
He's like 15 at that age.
(23:00):
You know what I mean.
I don't know if they mentionthis.
I think they do in the book, soI'm not 100% sure because
obviously they won't use thisexact words.
But he's like kind of at thatage where you know your hormones
are, you know, out of whack.
He a teenager.
So if a teenager would do this,you kind of would expect it
from them.
You know what I mean, likebeing rebellious and being like
no, I don't need your alliance,I can do it by myself.
(23:21):
You know that kind ofstubbornness and you know
falling for a girl and justinsisting on marrying her
because she's the love of yourlife when really she's not Like
it's.
It's the dumbest decision thathe'd ever make.
It's very much giving teenageRob and I just don't think it
helps the TV adaptation becauseRichard Madden looks older than
15.
He looks like 28.
So that's why it gets reallyfrustrating with Rob, I think.
(23:42):
But yeah, it's like for me it'skind of understandable, even
though it is very annoying,because obviously I love the
Starks and I didn't want hisfate to end up the way that it
will and about, and I didn'twant his fate to end up the way
that it will.
Um and about Edmure, like Iknow you're like, oh okay, but
it's like who would want tomarry a fray girl and he's being
(24:02):
forced into this.
Um, like I understand,obviously it's a bad thing, but
he is also like this is his aform of punishment for him,
because he's the one that kindof got Rob into a big mess
that's like kind of led them tolose the battle of the
Blackwater.
Like if it wasn't for Edmure,Stannis would have been on the
Iron Throne already, which is aninsane butterfly effect Like
please go back to our, to ourprevious episodes and listen to
(24:22):
our explanation and deep dive onhow we broke that down, Because
it's insane, Like yeah, like Ed, he deserves this.
Like what's he going to do?
And he's just going to getmarried to a noble house?
Like that's not a punishmentfor someone that messed up that
badly?
And the thing is, he's not evengoing to marry for my sins,
uncle.
It's not fair or right and I'llremember it, which just
reminded me of you saying abouthow he screwed up in the mill.
Speaker 3 (25:05):
The Blackfish is all well, this is your reward for
your great victory at the mill,like sarcastically, and he
basically gets up and threatenshim like you're going to do this
or else you know, gives him theultimatum.
And what's really surprising isI don't know if you were
(25:25):
surprised, and after the fact Igo wait a minute Catelyn didn't
say one word in the episode.
She was just sitting there.
I don't know if because the Freyguys were there or she was
embarrassed or you know what Imean like it felt kind of odd
for her not to say anything orgive any kind of a advice or
opinion I think it is off, likeor odd, but I can't help but
(25:45):
wonder if this is again.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
it could just be dnd not including her, but um, I
think it can also be seen ascat's kind of giving up her cell
phone.
You know, on like she's like.
You know what, every time Iopened my mouth or I did
something, it turned out to bethe wrong thing or it led to
something bad.
I'm gonna stay quiet and I kindof not be a part of it, even
though that's not kind of whatshe should do.
(26:07):
You know what I mean?
Like she feels the guilt andthe weight of what she did by
freeing Jamie and then, likewhen she advised Rob against
doing what she did, like shejust felt like she didn't help
Rob by advising him against theKarstarks.
You know, like she just feelslike her relationship with her
son is strained and like what'sthe point in talking anymore?
(26:28):
Like it's going to.
I think she thinks it's notgoing to end well and she
doesn't trust herself and shedoesn't trust herself and she
doesn't trust her son.
So she's just helpless, I think, at this point, which is sad.
It's sad to see Kat that way, Ithink.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
But for this trying to offer Edmure as a replacement
.
This move smells of desperationand it's just like, okay, what
can we do For us book readersseeing these negotiations?
It's tough to watch it.
You could feel things spiralingand you could see Rob trying to
(27:01):
reason with Edmure andeverybody.
And it's just like if you're afirst-time watcher of the show,
you're like, okay, maybe he'llfigure it out, maybe House Frey
will take the offer.
Now Rob says they can haveharrenhal.
That's what walter fray's like.
I want harrenhal as well.
So they're like go ahead, takeit.
Like we don't care.
Well, first time watcher,you're like, okay, maybe this
(27:24):
will work out.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Three episodes later, it feels like like the, like
the last hope.
I guess you'll be like, yeah,be like, yeah, okay, this could
be okay.
You know, when you're trying toconvince yourself of something
and you feel a bit delusional.
I think that's what that is.
Our last set of characters inthe Riverlands are Jamie and
Brienne.
They're still there, haven'tmade their way out of it.
They kind of made their way outof the trenches that they were
(27:48):
in because they're in Harrenhalwith Roose Bolton but they're
still not in the best place,since they're with Roose Bolton
and they kind of have dinnerwith him and they talk about
returning Jaime.
Roose says that he'll sendJaime to King's Landing only on
the condition that Jaime swearto tell his father that Roose
Bolton was not personallyresponsible for memeing him.
Which is kind of funny becauseyou know, this is Roose Bolton
(28:08):
again trying to be like I didn'tdo anything.
I am your man you know what I'msaying Trying to show that I
deserve his loyalty as much aspossible.
And Jamie wants Brienne to gowith him but Bruce wants her to
stay and that's a kind ofunsettling, I don't know,
because he says, oh, she's aprisoner because she's committed
treason.
But you wouldn't trust anyone,I guess, with Rose Bolton.
(28:31):
Of course we care about Briennetoo much and we know that she's
going to go with Jamie anyways.
But to talk about Brienne, youknow she looks very ladylike in
the scene.
For the first time she'swearing like a nice, nicely
fitted dress.
It's pink and it's fur lined.
It's a very different contrastas to how the scene is depicted
in the book, because in the bookshe's wearing like they kind of
mock her for her size becauseyou know she's very tall and
(28:52):
she's like they kind of mock herfor it by giving her a very
like loose, fitting garment.
That's barely a dress.
You know what I mean.
That's how they kind ofhumiliate her.
It's kind of like a public likehumiliation, if that makes
sense Like she feels embarrassedfor how others see her.
Do you know what I mean?
Like it's understandable.
But, um, I love the the costumedesigner for game of thrones,
(29:14):
michelle clapson, because of thedetail and thought that she
puts into the costume sometimes,like in this scene.
Um, she went for a completelydifferent uh take and made that
dress like kind of form-fittingand overly ladylike, with the
pink and the fur lined, and madeit, like you know, show not
like too much skin but just abit around her neck.
So it did feel very feminineand that's kind of for Brienne
herself to feel humiliated kindof within herself, instead of it
(29:37):
being like a mockery for peopleto laugh at her.
She feels like she's like inthe wrong, like in the wrong
place.
You know what I mean.
Like, uh.
There's a quote from Claptonhere that I uh noted down when
she says I wanted Brienne to puton a dress and look rather good
in it, but be horrified abouthaving to wear it.
It's meant I'm going to skipthat.
For Brienne, it's mortifying.
(29:59):
The last thing she wants is tobe portrayed as a woman and, in
a way, to look good as a womanmakes it worse.
So we decided to rather go fora dress that looked good, but it
was her sense of horror thatmade it comfortable or
uncomfortable.
Comfortable or uncomfortable,yeah, yeah, um, so I just like
that detail and I wanted to tonote it down.
Um, and I also think that youknow, we see brienne kind of
(30:20):
humiliated and and, uh, inhorror on one side, but then you
also see jamie who kind oflooks and feels broken because
he's struggling to eat with hisone hand.
I just I don't know yeah youfeel for them a bit in the scene
.
Something that I hated too wasthat ruse tells him you are in
no place to insist on anything.
I would have hoped you'd havelearned your lesson about
overplaying your position.
He says that to jamie.
He would have never spoken tothe old jamie that way and the
(30:42):
old jamie never would react tothe way that this jamie reacts,
which is quietly.
He would have said something,would have drawn out of the
sword, he would have like, donesomething, obviously.
But this jamie is broken and hecan't do that, and he's quiet
and it's heartbreaking becausethat's, you know, like.
That goes back to an amazingquestion that we got in the last
episode in our anniversaryspecial.
Someone said do you think thatjamie would have gone down this
(31:04):
road if he hadn't gotten hishand cut off, or like, do you
think he was?
His character would havechanged, and this is proof that.
Um, obviously he needed that tohappen in order for him to
become the jay, that's what isthe show.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
The person he was yeah and for brianne, her
character is so great becauseshe isn't tied to politics or
power, it's all personal, sacredloyalty and oaths.
And then she'll promise mesomething she'll die trying to
to complete her mission or herjourney.
And that's what she does.
(31:35):
And she's like I promised, youknow, to return to King's
Landing and I'm eager to watchthe next episode because I don't
remember how they leaveHarrenhal.
I just remember them.
I just remember the bear andshe's trapped in the pit.
But I just like I said, it'sbeen years since I watched
(31:55):
season three.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
So that's it for the Riverlands.
Let's move on to King's Landing, where Jamie hopes to go.
So basically, olenna and Tywin.
Of course, these two plottingdivas are plotting and scheming.
Speaker 3 (32:05):
Did you just call Tywin a diva?
Speaker 2 (32:08):
Yeah, he's a diva, he is a diva.
Something that I kind of likedis that they're diva-off.
Elena and Tywin talk about therumors that are circulating
around their respective children, or, like grandchildren.
Elena's referring to Loras andhis rumors.
That's what they were kind oftalking about and Cersei I'm
sorry.
And Jaime.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
I'm sorry to interrupt, but the way she
refers to Loras.
I won't say it, but it's solike cutting and it's so her,
yeah, she was she how sheexplains him, and I love when
she puts tywin on the defense oflike well, you never, when you
were a little boy, you knowunder the sheets.
And so I was like never, I'venever done that he's so offended
.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
I'm like don't protest too much.
What I liked was that you kindof see the difference between
them, like, yeah, you can seethese two intelligent people
like talk and have that scenetogether.
But something that I noted bothkind of know the power of
people's opinions and he kind ofputs his assumption onto her,
like he thinks that she is thesame as him, but he kind of gets
(33:19):
a wake-up call that it's notreally that.
I don't know how to explain it.
Um, it's been a while sinceI've seen the episodes.
I wish I could go into moredetail about that, but, um, I
remember that being thestrongest takeaway that I had
from this episode, which is thatthey're both people that really
understand that.
They know that they kind ofhave to do something about those
rumors that are circulatingabout their heirs and they need
to fix it, even though they knowthat it won't really change
(33:42):
much.
It's just the public image andI don't know if you caught this
detail.
I think so it's kind of obvious, but I don't know, I didn't
make note of it before, but hewas going to pour her a glass
and she covers it.
Fear of poisoning, because youknow, like she knows better,
yeah, and she's already planningsomething.
So, yeah, so finally, olennalike kind of just accepts what
Tywin has been suggesting orhinting to, which is the
(34:04):
marriage between Loras andCersei, and she kind of just
like gives up and resent and notresent to that, sorry, relents,
uh, to that um, after she,after he threatens to make laura
as a member of the king's guardfor me that you'll never marry,
never have an heir, and, ofcourse, because they don't
include the other, uh, the othertyra sons, that's kind of like
a make or break situation forfor them here.
Um, but what I love is that she, she, she breaks his quill
(34:28):
after signing, like the likedoes she sign something, I don't
, she, she, I does, and then shekind of like breaks his quid,
or or, or he offers it to her tosign and she breaks it.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
I have to do like a retraction, or maybe I don't
know if I'm wrong or not, butTywin threatens to have Loras
put in the Kingsguard unlessOlenna accepts the marriage
proposal.
Now, for the past few episodesI've been saying that it's silly
Tywin to suggest his marriagepractice as Loras as a part of
the Kingsguard in the novel.
He's been a Kingsguard sincethe aftermath of the Battle of
(34:59):
Blackwater Bay, so at this stagehe's already a Kingsguard, so
he can't marry anyone.
And in the book Cersei wasoffered Willis Tyrell instead, a
character that was cut from theseries.
You mentioned that before, saida character that was cut from
the series.
You said you mentioned thatbefore and and thinking about it
, I'll never remember him sayingking's god.
I just assumed that he wasalready a king's guard and
that's dumb.
Why are they?
(35:20):
Why are they trying to make analliance?
But I want to do.
I want to talk about loris andsansa, because this, this scene,
was depressing to me, because Ifeel so sad for sansa at this.
Her heart is filled with joy.
She's imagining her life as theLady of Highgarden, not knowing
that there's a ton of bricksthat will be shattering her
(35:41):
dream anymore.
It's like she always has, like asecond of happiness and then
boom, it reminds me of seasonfinale, of season two.
She's freed from Joffrey andLittlefinger's.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
like she smiles for five seconds and then yeah yeah
and this reminds me of that uh,it's kind of it is a sad scene
between doris and and uh sansa,because you also do see her kind
of like, realize that'sactually this guy that I've
always had a crush on, isn'tthat's great of a person.
So you know, she's been holdingon to doris as being sort of
like her prince, charming herhope.
That's great of a person.
(36:13):
So you know, she's been holdingonto doris as being sort of
like her prince, charming herhope.
That's good.
This is going to change my life.
I'm going to be so happy withhim.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
And then she talks he has no like he's literally has
no.
He's chatting with her becausehe's being forced to.
Like he has no enthusiasm toknow, who she is and she's like,
okay, I guess, but but in hermind she's just thinking
whatever, I'm going to be out ofhere.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Yeah, this is better than everything else.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
Yeah, yeah.
If I have to deal with anot-so-great marriage, I'd
rather have that than being heretortured by these sadistic
fools here.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
And while they're having their unromantic moment,
there's a duo or I guess theirfuture spouses, cersei and
sirian kind of like, observethem from afar.
Sirian was like which one of usis, which one of the four of us
is going to be the unhappiest,like which one of us has it for
the worst, and he says, likeit's probably sansa.
I have a very like tiny detailabout the scene that I want to
(37:08):
talk about.
It's like very tiny, but I waslike why?
But I was like why is this athing?
Peter Dinklage, when he saysSansa's name, he doesn't say
Sansa, he says Sansa LikeS-U-N-S-A.
It's probably Sansa, and I'mlike Sansa is not her name, it's
Sansa, like it's probably Sansa.
And I was like that's like what.
(37:29):
Like that's where I was likeokay, yeah, he's not British.
Like those rare moments wherelike kind of like the character
breaks, I was like that's no,that's not right.
Anyways, I know it's likenitpicking, but I couldn't get
over Sansa.
But weirdly enough, in thisscene, like that aside, there's
another weird moment, which isthat Cersei kind of gives credit
(37:49):
to Tyrion for the Blackwaterwhich you'd never think that
you'd get from her.
So it feels like one of thosethings, one of the things you'll
do before you die, kind ofthings you know.
Like one of her last words, andhe confronts her about trying
to have him killed during theBattle of the Blackwater.
She's quiet, she doesn't reallyargue, and Tyrion then realizes
that while Cersei could commanda Kingsguard, she wouldn't
(38:10):
really do that.
And then he realizes that itmust have been Joffrey that
ordered the hits on him.
That's kind of like the puzzlepiece or like the gears in
Tyrion's head, and we see thathappen all in our screen at that
moment or in this scene.
Speaker 3 (38:24):
I do want to add that this is the closest we got to a
normal conversation betweenCersei and Tyrion.
There's no hate in their tone,no demeaning comments, just
asking for opinions and answers,and they actually get them.
They have a civil conversation.
You're like, oh okay, there'salways before this, every scene
(38:48):
with them would kind of startcivilly and Tyrion will say a
joke or you know, it's alwaysended in I hate you, I want to
kill you.
Like it's never, never likethis.
So it's kind of a uh, notrefreshing, but it's kind of.
It's kind of weird, becauseyou've grown to seeing these
people loathe each other andthen now they're like um, you
(39:11):
know, good siblings and just youknow, just let's just talk, not
.
But I guess the reason why isthey have something in common
and they're trying to figure outhow we're gonna get out of this
.
I'm you know, we're not bothbetrothed to people we don't
want to marry.
Peter dinklage is so good andhe enters the room with sansa
and shea.
He he's trying so hard not tobe gentle with her with the news
(39:34):
, like he doesn't say hey, bythe way, you can marry me tough,
tough crap.
You know what I deal with ityeah but here he.
We don't see the scene of himtelling her, we see the
aftermath of her crying and Ithink it's this storyline of
sansa in the Climb.
It kind of emphasizes her, Idon't know transformation from,
I guess, naive to a young womanwho's now experienced so much
(39:59):
betrayal.
And this is she's going toexperience something else in a
few episodes.
That just deepens her pain andher hurt and her heartbrokenness
, which eventually she begins toshape as I guess I don't know
how to say resilience in her.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
For all the people who hate Sansa, I'm like I just
feel for her, Especially in thisepisode.
I'm like, okay, just go, justgo, Just go to Highgarden.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
Isn't it awkward, though, that she's in the room.
Isn't that what Tyrion said?
Isn't that like the exact wordthat he was like?
This is going to be awkwardwhen.
Shay's there, and becauseShay's there, because Sansa
thinks that or Sansa thinks that.
You know, shay is like thisvery loyal person to her, which.
Speaker 3 (40:47):
I think she is, I think she is now, she is, she is
and she's in the corner, whichI think she is.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
I think she is now.
Speaker 3 (40:50):
She is, she is.
I think she's getting there.
But, it's funny that, like hesays he wants to have a word in
private.
And she's like no, no, you'regood, she's my bestie, you can
tell her, you can say whateveryou want, and that's what she
says.
I can't remember.
She does stay, she does stay,she does not go.
(41:12):
That's why Tyrion is like thisis going to be awkward.
I think we get to the point ofthe episode where it's the final
scene and that's withLittlefinger and Varys, and it's
in a show edition.
We do not get this in the book.
I'll just say it's my favoritescene from the episode, hands
down.
I know we have that momentwhere we say what's your
favorite scene?
I think this is.
It Gives me chills from thevery first line.
There's a bit of a setup withVarys beforehand, but it's this
(41:35):
moment that Littlefinger revealshow he views the game he's
playing.
What struck me the most was howhe talks about those who refuse
to climb and then when he'stalking, he's saying this
monologue and it turns into likea voiceover.
We finally see Littlefinger'sclaws come out in this speech
and it's it turns into like avoiceover.
We finally see little fingerslike claws come out in this
speech, because he's always beenreserved and you know he's
(41:57):
scheming and he's he's trying tofigure out a way to get more
power, but in this speech he hebasically is.
He's.
He's showing how cold-heartedand ambitious he is.
He proves this by trickingSansa, crushing her hopes, by
marrying Loras and then usingher, as you know, a political
game.
You know, we also see that hesent Ross to Joffrey.
(42:19):
So it shows that he has littlecare for human life.
He doesn't care about loyaltyor justice.
He only cares about who'sclimbing higher and gaining more
power, unlike Varys, who he'sfor the realm quote unquote.
And whoever wrote that, I guess, is our favorite people.
There's their lines.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
Do we have to?
Speaker 3 (42:43):
say that we have to give them some credit here.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
We'll give them credit, sure, but we want to say
our favorite people.
That's a bit drastic for a showthat features Emilia Clarark
and and has the with the bookswritten by george r martin, but
I will say that this is anamazing speech because it's kind
.
It's true, you know like thereare little fingers in this world
that kind of see chaos and uh,like this organization.
(43:06):
You know they see like um, Idon't know like, uh, like
political, economic events thatdisrupt everyday lives.
They see those events asopportunities to rise in rank
and make themselves useful.
So it's great insight.
It rings through Notnecessarily the most positive
(43:27):
thing, but that doesn't matter.
It's insight into whoLittlefinger is and I really
like that.
And, as you said, that showsthat the difference between
verus and um and littlefingerand littlefinger is that person
that would like climb like hewould.
I think he kind of sees eachperson.
I wouldn't see it really as aladder, but you know those rock
climbing walls he sees eachperson as like one of those, um,
(43:48):
those things that he latches onto, whereas with varus, I think
it like slithers his way to thetop, like he tries to go
undetected.
You know, he doesn't.
If there's something, ifthere's something chaotic going
on like a revolution or a betteror whatever, he's just suddenly
there and doing things andtaking care of things that
you're like, oh, this, this guyworks and like, yeah, sure, but
the little finger is like I didthis, I did that and this, and
(44:10):
then that's, and I have q and Idid, and I did this and I will
do this, and I have this in theworks and it's like, oh, okay,
like thanks, then you know, likeyou make your, you made
yourself useful and that way he,he kind of uh, I don't know
it's a difference like way oflooking at power.
There's power and being knownobviously like there's a finger
and power, and being unknownlike ferris, so I don't know.
(44:31):
I really love that.
It's a great.
It's a great, uh, it's a greatscene.
Speaker 3 (44:35):
I like that.
You said climb, I think.
Well, the episode's name yeah,little finger would not have any
issue.
Or thought on climbing on thebacks of many to get to the top,
oh yeah.
And then you have the oppositeof rob and john, who probably
would be in the bottom makingsure people get to the top
(44:56):
before they even start climbing.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
Yeah, and while everyone's talking about like
the opportunity of the climb,the episode ends with like I
guess a sweet, uh climb and likea nice kind of reward of a
successful climb.
That's not, I guess.
I was going to say it doesn'thave any intentions, but it does
.
I was going to say it's just asweet moment, I guess,
(45:19):
intentions aside, of John andYgritte on top of the wall
having like a nice romanticmoment.
The sweet like the calm beforethe storm, because I don't know
why I said it's without anyintentions, because they
obviously climbed that thing fora reason.
So yeah, um, the calm before themany storms ahead yeah, it
wasn't like like, I didn't seeit as like something so
(45:40):
political they're just becausein this episode they don't talk
about.
They were just like climbingdoing their thing.
So to me it wasn't like oh yeah, they're gonna heading to war,
it's like they're climbing.
Speaker 3 (45:50):
Why don't we go from that and just go straight to our
scene of the episode?
Okay, I already mentioned it'sLittlefinger's monologue.
Can I safely assume that's yourscene of the episode?
Speaker 1 (46:02):
Yes, okay.
Speaker 3 (46:03):
I mean Olenna and Tywin is fantastic, but this one
is just.
You know I get goosebumps andwith just the way that it was
edited, it was a perfect endingto the episode.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
I agree you know you mentioned this too, which is
that people had complaints withthis episode of calling it weak
because not like much happened.
But I think that's having kindof that thematic thread going
throughout it all really helped,which is, you know, like the
climb and like like I at all umreally helped, which is, you
(46:33):
know, like the climb and like um, uh, like I can't why, I can't
know why I'll like I can't findthe words for it in english but
like um, um, like socialclimbing, you know what I mean
like like rising to power.
It is an underlying theme inthis episode because it's kind
of behind every um storyline.
It's why and taiwan are doingwhat they're doing, because they
want to, like um, maintaintheir place at the top.
It's why Rob knew that he felldown the ladder, so now he knows
(46:54):
to climb back up because of thechaos that he created.
It's there in every scene.
Jamie has fallen off because ofhim losing his hand.
It's just that underlying theme, that thematic sorry,
connecting the episode togethermade it a strong episode of my
eyes.
So, um, yeah, I forgot whatyour question was, but that was
my thoughts on the episode.
Speaker 3 (47:17):
Uh, the question was scene of the episode.
But how about your rating forseason three, episode seven,
decline?
Speaker 2 (47:22):
oh yeah.
So then, like I did answer yourquestion and give my reasoning,
which is that which is why Ivalidated fingers scene, anyways
, I think I'd rate it.
Maybe I can.
8 points 8.5 feels generous, 8feels too low.
I'll give it an 8.5.
That's fine.
Speaker 3 (47:41):
I'm doing 8.5 because of the reason I gave you
earlier of watching this episode, and maybe it's because I
hadn't seen it in so long andreading those comments
beforehand and going wait aminute.
There's some crucial andimportant scenes and amazing
scenes, amazing monologues anddialogues, so I'm like what are
people talking about anyway?
So 8.5 out of 10.
We'd like to thank you all forlistening to dancing with
(48:03):
dragons.
If you're enjoying the ridethrough westeros with us, be
sure to follow us on instagramat dancing with underscore
dragons for updates, reelselsand more.
And if you've got a minute,leave us a rating and review on
any of the podcast platforms youuse.
It really helps other fans findthe show.
Next episode we'll be divinginto Season 3, episode 7, the
Bear and the Maiden Fair.
(48:24):
You won't want to miss that one, but in the meantime, peace out
.
Do you know what the realm is?
It's the thousand blades ofAegon's enemies, a story we
agree to tell each other overand over till we forget that
it's a lie.
But what do we have left oncewe abandon the lie?
Chaos, a gaping pit waiting toswallow us all.
(00:24):
Chaos isn't a pit.
Chaos is a ladder.
Many who try to climb it failnever get to try again.
The fall breaks them and someare given a chance to climb, but
(00:57):
they refuse.
They cling to the realm or thegods, or love Illusions.
Only the latter is real.
The climb is all there is.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Hello everyone, welcome to Dancing with Dragons,
your go-to podcast foreverything related to Game of
Thrones, house of the Dragon andthe rest of George RR Martin's
A Song of Ice and Fire universe.
No-transcript that episode.
(01:54):
Life kind of got in the way forboth tony and me with some
personal stuff, busy schedulessort of snuck up on us, those
busy schedules.
But we're back and we'refinally ready to jump into
today's episode.
Today we'll be picking up wherewe left off, continuing season
three's discussion with episodesix, the Climb.
The episode first premiered onHBO on May 5th 2013, and it was
(02:15):
written by our amazingshowrunners David Benioff and DB
Weiss, and it was directed byAlex Sakharov.
Sakharov was the director ofphotography for season one of
Thrones, but he also directedthe season two episode, what is
Dead May Never Die, and he wouldgo on to direct the season four
episodes the Laws of Gods andMen and Mockingbird.
In today's episode, tywin plansunions for the Lannisters,
(02:36):
melisandre visits the Riverlands, rob wants to repair his
alliance with House Frey Rose,bolton makes a decision about
Jamie Lannister and, in total,four houses consider make or
break alliances, all while JohnYgritte and the Wildlings face a
formidable climb.
And let's get started, tony,how are you?
Are you okay?
Speaker 3 (02:56):
I'm doing okay.
I wanted to let the listenersknow that every time you hear
minwa say our amazingshowrunners, I see her eyes.
They're rolling yep the sarcasmis brilliant, but uh yeah, um
(03:16):
no doing.
Well, I'm happy to be recording, therapeutic in a way after the
last few weeks, so I'm happy tobe back here and I wanted to
add, uh to our amazingshowrunners that I did read that
this episode, according to them, marked the turning point where
the game shifts from battlesand rebellion to pure
(03:36):
psychological warfare.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
When review was seeing the episode of
remembering it, it does makesense it does make sense when
you said that my first likeinstinct was to sorry but argue
and be like, which was alwaysthat way.
But they never understood it.
But I don't think that it'sthat um like it is true because
you know, we did like forseasons one and two.
One was mainly just ned's storykind of.
(03:59):
You know, everything was kindof happening in the background
of that, except for danny'sstory.
And then for season two it wasabout Blackwater.
It didn't feel, as I guess, touse their word psychological or
manipulative, and planning andscheming.
All of that did exist, but itwasn't really at the forefront,
I think, until now.
So, yeah, that makes sense,even though my first instinct
(04:20):
was to argue with them abouttheir own show.
So, sorry about that.
But yeah, please, please, go on.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
When doing my notes for this episode, I come up with
a lot of articles and like onthe wiki, like of people saying
that this was like the not theworst episode, but the least
favorite of people.
And I watching this episode andgoing what are they talking
about?
This is a really good episode.
This episode and going what arethey talking about?
(04:47):
This is a really good episode.
This is the scheming and theplotting and felt like every
scene almost was pushing thestory.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Yeah, you know some amazing scenes in this episode
it is a pivoted point, as theysaid, and does kind of move the
story along.
But I think that there are alsosome like details in this
episode that probably shouldhave been, should have come back
into play, um in the future ofgame of thrones, and I will uh
touch on that point again lateron the episode.
(05:11):
But I'm gonna start off, uh,with this point as well um with
sam and gilly.
So they're beyond the wall, youknow, we saw them skipping.
Craster's creep, creep,craster's, creep, craster's keep
.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
No, actually that's better.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Yeah, he is a creep, yeah so we saw them escape
craster the creep.
Um, and basically sam andgillia are camping and he shows
her the dragon glass dagger thathe found at the fists of the
first man and basically talksabout castle black and that
dragon class dagger.
Like it does come into playlater on, but I'm gonna get into
(05:45):
this when we eventually talkabout season eight, like it was
never as central to the story asI wanted it to be, because it
just goes nowhere.
Um, so I, I like it's one ofthose bittersweet details that's
included because, like, like,thank you for including it, I
just wish you did something withit.
Um, but yeah, so that's wheresam is, he's safe with gilly and
the baby, and the wilding party, led by torment, continue to
(06:08):
scale the wall and prepare theirdaunting climb, you know, and
egret kind of tells john thatshe kind of senses that he's
still loyal to the night's watch.
I don't like, I feel like hekind of feels relieved but
scared at the same time, becauseit's like oh, then she still
loves me, then this is true loveand maybe I will get like
happily ever after.
But at the same time it's like,you know, he knows that it's
(06:30):
impossible, because then what'she gonna do now?
He has the love of his life,but his duty is like coming into
play.
More than ever, his duty is thenight's watch.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
He has to stay he has to stay with him.
He has to betray her.
You ever seen those comedyshows or movies where somebody's
trying to figure out what to doand then the devil appears on
one shoulder and then the angeland they're trying to convince
someone what to do?
That's John.
Like I love her, but in lovingher I'm going to betray my
(07:00):
brothers.
Yeah, but I wanted to go backto Sam and I just, I just want
to say that he's one of thoseinnocent and kind souls, that I
just love Sam and he's soaccommodating to Gilly and it's
probably because he's in love.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
He's smitten.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Yeah, he's smitten, that's perfect.
I wanted to say that I might bemistaken, but I think this is
the first time we hear about theactual dimensions of the wall,
like he was telling her oh, it's700 foot wide, it's made of ice
.
Then I think this is the firsttime we hear him talk about
where he's from, because thenshe's like oh, I knew you were
(07:40):
highborn like all our servantsand this and you know what, back
when, I was younger, as a childI think he says something in
season one but we don't reallyknow, like where he's from, like
he's you know house Tarly andall that stuff.
So I do like that scene.
It was quite nice to see themjust relaxing and it wasn't a
(08:01):
quick, it was like four or fiveminutes scene With Jon and Ygr
egret like I love egret sayingI'm your woman now you're loyal
to me.
Forget about everybody else soI thought it was a great she's.
Uh, what do you call thespitfire?
Speaker 2 (08:18):
yeah, well, she's kissed by fire.
That's what I said of the lastepisode, wasn't it so?
Speaker 3 (08:23):
but I think that the scenes of the climbing is very
well done.
It's full of tension, suspense,action.
You have somebody who waswilling to basically try to
murder them in the wall.
I forget the guy's name, theguy who was at work.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Oral.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
Oral yeah, yeah, yeah .
So he's pretty much trying tokill them and saying not to save
them.
But when you think about it,when you're climbing a wall that
high, you're going to have tomake some tough choices.
And well, better you than me, Iguess.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Yeah, better like the crow than any of the others.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
And I also want to point out, with the music.
I mean the music is one of thebest things about the show, but
it really, it really elevates.
You know the climbing elevate,uh the scene.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
So the scene with Sam was brief, but we also get
another very brief moment withBran in the North.
But just before we move on toanywhere else in Westeros um, we
don't really get much in thescene we see Jojen experiencing
a seizure.
You know he's still with themon their journey, uh, and Mir
explains that you know this isbecause Jojen has visions, the
same way Bran does, and Jontells Jojen tells Bran that in
(09:34):
his vision he saw Jon on thewrong side of the wall,
surrounded by enemies.
That's basically it.
Um, of course there's nocontext there.
So Bran at this point doesn'tknow, like Jon's story and story
and like that he's undercoverand he's probably just concerned
and that's it really.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
That's it for Bran and Jojo.
I do have in the scene we haveMira and Osha just bickering
back and forth.
Which?
Is kind of funny Like oh, youdon't know how to use a knife,
you know.
It's just like back and forthtrying to like one-up each other
in insults and brand is all.
Please, please, just gettogether.
(10:10):
Everybody, love each other.
We have one mission, one goal.
We can't be fighting and allthat.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
It's always nice to have like those moments of
levity in Game of Thrones,because we need it.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
And just you have like Hodor, hodor, hodor.
Like he's like calm downeverybody.
That was just the same.
Calm down as well.
He's like I don't likeconfrontation.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Yeah, and then you have this going on right, like
this kind of lights not thatserious moment but then also
happening somewhere in the runes, which I don't like talking
about is a very, very darkmoment, which proves why we need
kind of lightheartedness inGame of Thrones 2, which is
what's going on with Theon, andwhat do you have to say about
that?
I think I made a promise at thebeginning of Season 3 that it's
(10:53):
just very hard for me to talkabout Theon and what he's going
through this season because Ican barely watch his scenes.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
So I can't.
I thought about, which I toldyou or we started recording.
Is that when watching thisepisode, this episode, this
scene with Theon and Ramsey, whohas not been revealed- yet to
us it reminded me of the DarkKnight, with Alfred telling you
know, batman or Bruce Waynesaying that some men aren't
looking for anything logicallike money.
They can't be bought, bullied,reasoned or negotiated with.
Some men just want to watch theworld burn.
Ramsey, he's like there'snothing you can offer him to say
, oh please, I'll give you this.
(11:34):
I'll tell you that he's likeyou have nothing to negotiate
with.
I just want to see you cry andbe in pain and I want to torture
you.
It's just like next levelsadistic.
You know, he says.
The only reason I'm torturingyou is because I enjoy it.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Yeah, it's being evil for the sake of being evil.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
There's nothing to accomplish in in torturing him,
this man, and he's just like.
I'm just going to do it becauseI like it, which I laugh
because it's so scary and it'slike okay I laugh because it's
scary and then you have anotherscene.
Towards the end we have anothersadistic monster who will
parallel each other, one in thenorth, one in the south, with
(12:18):
joffrey, and we'll get to thatwhen we get to the king's
landing portion but yeah, I willget back to it then.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
But like I was gonna say that joffrey, like you can
at least somewhat blame it onhis genetics and his stuff, like
that.
You know, like there there issome like yeah, and like maybe
understandable, like small pointwith ramsey, it's for the sake
of being even nothing else, likebut can you think about
ramsey's childhood?
Speaker 3 (12:41):
I mean, I'm sure he he was poor, he had to, you know
, scavenge for any kind of thing.
His father wasn't there becausehe's quote a bastard, so he
probably didn't have a greatupbringing as well.
That's what it led him to be,so him.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
And that's really it from the North for this episode.
So let's head to the Riverlandsand see where Arya's at.
You're a witch, you're, solet's head to the Riverlands and
(13:45):
see where Arya is at.
I mentioned at the beginning ofthis episode that I do agree
that was pivotal, but alsoincluded details that went
nowhere, and that Melisandrescene was a detail that went
nowhere.
That's what I was referring towhen she says that Arya, she
sees in Arya's eyes, the eyes ofmany others.
Okay, she might have seen thatArya will use that ability or
that she will have that ability,but it kind of went nowhere.
Or that she would have thatability, but it kind of went
(14:08):
nowhere and it kind of wasbarely a thing.
After season seven.
Season eight, I think, was whenit was nothing After she killed
the Freys.
That was it.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
Well, she did kill the Night King.
He has blue eyes.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Oh, whatever, whatever, it should have never
been her.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
That's one of those things where people say, oh,
this is a great foreshadowing,and I'm thinking B&B, they were
not that far ahead.
This was like 2014, 2015.
And that was four years fromthe, or maybe five years from
the actual ending of the show.
And remember that George wasstill a part of the process
(14:45):
during this season and the next.
So it's just a coincidence thatshe says you'll be shutting
blue eyes and that they have her, unless they went back and go.
Well, you know what would be soamazing If Arya came.
I came because you knowMelisandre says she's going to
shut blue eyes.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Anyway, they didn't even do that effort, I'm telling
you.
They just said you know what'sgoing to.
What was their dumb phrase,sorry, which was like what will
subvert expectations?
That's what they used.
No-transcript time.
(15:52):
She speaks in this episode andshe says something that really
goes anywhere.
Of course that's melissandra.
All the time she says this isgoing to happen, that's going to
happen, and nothing everhappens, um, which of course is
commentary.
We should get to in anotherepisode, um, like a deep dive
into the lord of lights, uh,religion, or to melisandre, but,
um, something that she saysalso that goes nowhere is
actually so funny that I wrotelol in my notes.
(16:14):
She tells gendry, you will makekings rise and fall.
Okay, okay, okay, melisandre,he really will.
I guess he will.
I don't know what's gonna do inanother universe, in your
delululand, but whatever, um,but there's something actually
it sounds, it sounded good itsounds good.
(16:35):
Sounds good doesn't meananything, um, but there's
something actually that she saysthat I kind of forgot if it was
a detail or not, because Ican't recall anything.
But when she kind of meets thebrotherhood and she speaks to
Thoros, she tells him, like whathappened about the mission to
convert Roberts to the Lord ofLight's religion?
And he was like, oh, he failedor whatever.
But was that a thing?
(16:56):
I don't remember that.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
No, because we see Beric for I think half a second
and I think it's when Ned is onthe Iron Throne and he's
demanding the Mountain's Headfor treason and he sends Beric
to find, and that's pretty muchit what we learned about Beric.
(17:21):
We don't know about any plot ofhim Because we don't mean
Thoros of season three, so wedon't know about them trying to
convert Robert or anybody in thecouncil to the Lord of Light.
But I do like that, this scenewith Melisandre she just shows
up, which is a show invention,just to add.
(17:44):
It's the first time High Verianhas was identified as such.
This low valerian was kind ofthe plot point of now.
His watches ended with denarisand it was just simply referred
to as valerian.
So this is the first time yousee somebody they're talking in
an extended dialogue.
It's also the first time thatthe Valyrian, Valar Margulis, is
(18:07):
given its proper response ValarDohaeris on screen.
So neither term is translatedin subtitles, however, and we
all both know one is all menmust die and Valar Dohaeris is
all men must serve.
So that's the first time wehear people say it to each other
, and I think we also hear it inthe end of season four, when
(18:30):
Arya gets on the boat and shehas the coin and she tells the
captain of the ship,Valamorgulus, and he looks at
the coin and he goes ValadoJarez.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
So I may be mistaken, so don't quote me on that.
I'm just remembering that scene.
Yeah is another.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
I remember it that way too, so don't worry okay
yeah, it's, it's funny.
I have another note aboutminisandra that I that just
popped up too, which is that youknow she is kind of saying one
of these not like kind ofweightless foreshadowing moments
, but uh, what I think is funnyto see kind of in this episode,
or at least in this moment, wasthat we kind of see her uh get
(19:12):
jealous or like kind of getsoffended because she kind of
discovers, you know, okay, sheknows that Thoros is of the same
religion as her and he's kindof like a priest where she's a
priestess, um, but she finallyfinds out about Beric Dondarrion
and how he's died six times andlike been revived seven times.
And she gets jealous fromThoros a little bit, saying that
(19:33):
you should not have that kindof power.
And I like seeing that.
I think melissandra kind ofneeded that like um, that like
embarrassment or humiliation alittle bit, just because she's
been so drunk on power, you know, like recently, you know with
sanis and everything she's justbeen so like she thinks she's
she's untouchable.
So I think that she kind ofneeded to come back down to
earth a little bit, and that wasa nice moment to see.
(19:55):
But I like Thoris' answer too,which was basically saying that
it's not that he's favored bythe Order of Light, it's that he
only gives favors when he deemsit fit to do that.
He could have just not answered.
But let's move on from Arya toher sibling, her older rob,
(20:20):
who's also in the riverlands,not too far away, um, but rob,
as I mentioned the beginning ofthe episode, he is still there
trying to like salvage his plan,even though at this point it's
already like he's already lost.
You know, we that's what Imentioned in previous episodes
um, but he's trying to salvageany kind of ally or like
relationship that he can.
And of course this is the likewhen you say make or break.
He thinks this is the make orbreak one and obviously we know
(20:42):
it's going to be the break onethat's going to like solidify
kind of his fate, which is himtrying to repair his alliance
with a phrase, unfortunately,and it's funny that the guys,
guys, no shade to them.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
I'm sure they're great actors, but they look like
they're Freys.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
No shade to them.
And then you say that when theFreys are supposed to be like
this really ugly house, thateverybody wants to avoid a
marriage they embody house Frey.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
Oh my God.
I do want to say somethingabout Edmure, because people say
oh he's so annoying, but I I Ikind of get where he's coming
from in this episode and thiswhen, yeah, when he refuses to
marry the, the yeah he's beingforced to marry some random
freak out just because robcouldn't keep it together and I
(21:31):
I do.
I found this quote from thailandI think it's thailand, or maybe
it was tyrian.
They says in westeros thebattlefield wins glory, but the
marriage bed, that the councilchamber and the dining hall,
that's where kings are broken,which is kind of nice.
Of of just the the politicking,is where everything could be
(21:52):
like.
You can do all you want in thebattlefield, you could be the
strongest, whatever, but when itcomes to actually losing or
winning, you have to figure outa way to compromise and not be
so hard-headed as Rob wants tobe when it comes to certain
things.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Yeah, yeah, that's true's true.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
Right, you know rob stark, he's a badass in battle,
but off the he's kind of messy.
He's trying to keep peopletogether, which is hard enough,
and then he goes and chops offcar stark's head and screws
their alliance and then he fallsfor the cute.
I mean, come on it, just itgets.
It gets progressively annoyingto watch these episodes where
(22:35):
Rob has so much promise.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Yeah, I agree with you.
I agree with you.
I will play the devil'sadvocate just for a little bit
and just share the flip side ofeverything that you mentioned.
So for Rob it does get annoyingside of everything that you
mentioned.
So for rob it does get annoyingand I think it's more annoying
on screen than it is in the bookbecause rob is still a teenager
.
He's like 15 at that age.
(23:00):
You know what I mean.
I don't know if they mentionthis.
I think they do in the book, soI'm not 100% sure because
obviously they won't use thisexact words.
But he's like kind of at thatage where you know your hormones
are, you know, out of whack.
He a teenager.
So if a teenager would do this,you kind of would expect it
from them.
You know what I mean, likebeing rebellious and being like
no, I don't need your alliance,I can do it by myself.
(23:21):
You know that kind ofstubbornness and you know
falling for a girl and justinsisting on marrying her
because she's the love of yourlife when really she's not Like
it's.
It's the dumbest decision thathe'd ever make.
It's very much giving teenageRob and I just don't think it
helps the TV adaptation becauseRichard Madden looks older than
15.
He looks like 28.
So that's why it gets reallyfrustrating with Rob, I think.
(23:42):
But yeah, it's like for me it'skind of understandable, even
though it is very annoying,because obviously I love the
Starks and I didn't want hisfate to end up the way that it
will and about, and I didn'twant his fate to end up the way
that it will.
Um and about Edmure, like Iknow you're like, oh okay, but
it's like who would want tomarry a fray girl and he's being
(24:02):
forced into this.
Um, like I understand,obviously it's a bad thing, but
he is also like this is his aform of punishment for him,
because he's the one that kindof got Rob into a big mess
that's like kind of led them tolose the battle of the
Blackwater.
Like if it wasn't for Edmure,Stannis would have been on the
Iron Throne already, which is aninsane butterfly effect Like
please go back to our, to ourprevious episodes and listen to
(24:22):
our explanation and deep dive onhow we broke that down, Because
it's insane, Like yeah, like Ed, he deserves this.
Like what's he going to do?
And he's just going to getmarried to a noble house?
Like that's not a punishmentfor someone that messed up that
badly?
And the thing is, he's not evengoing to marry for my sins,
uncle.
It's not fair or right and I'llremember it, which just
reminded me of you saying abouthow he screwed up in the mill.
Speaker 3 (25:05):
The Blackfish is all well, this is your reward for
your great victory at the mill,like sarcastically, and he
basically gets up and threatenshim like you're going to do this
or else you know, gives him theultimatum.
And what's really surprising isI don't know if you were
(25:25):
surprised, and after the fact Igo wait a minute Catelyn didn't
say one word in the episode.
She was just sitting there.
I don't know if because the Freyguys were there or she was
embarrassed or you know what Imean like it felt kind of odd
for her not to say anything orgive any kind of a advice or
opinion I think it is off, likeor odd, but I can't help but
(25:45):
wonder if this is again.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
it could just be dnd not including her, but um, I
think it can also be seen ascat's kind of giving up her cell
phone.
You know, on like she's like.
You know what, every time Iopened my mouth or I did
something, it turned out to bethe wrong thing or it led to
something bad.
I'm gonna stay quiet and I kindof not be a part of it, even
though that's not kind of whatshe should do.
(26:07):
You know what I mean?
Like she feels the guilt andthe weight of what she did by
freeing Jamie and then, likewhen she advised Rob against
doing what she did, like shejust felt like she didn't help
Rob by advising him against theKarstarks.
You know, like she just feelslike her relationship with her
son is strained and like what'sthe point in talking anymore?
(26:28):
Like it's going to.
I think she thinks it's notgoing to end well and she
doesn't trust herself and shedoesn't trust herself and she
doesn't trust her son.
So she's just helpless, I think, at this point, which is sad.
It's sad to see Kat that way, Ithink.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
But for this trying to offer Edmure as a replacement
.
This move smells of desperationand it's just like, okay, what
can we do For us book readersseeing these negotiations?
It's tough to watch it.
You could feel things spiralingand you could see Rob trying to
(27:01):
reason with Edmure andeverybody.
And it's just like if you're afirst-time watcher of the show,
you're like, okay, maybe he'llfigure it out, maybe House Frey
will take the offer.
Now Rob says they can haveharrenhal.
That's what walter fray's like.
I want harrenhal as well.
So they're like go ahead, takeit.
Like we don't care.
Well, first time watcher,you're like, okay, maybe this
(27:24):
will work out.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Three episodes later, it feels like like the, like
the last hope.
I guess you'll be like, yeah,be like, yeah, okay, this could
be okay.
You know, when you're trying toconvince yourself of something
and you feel a bit delusional.
I think that's what that is.
Our last set of characters inthe Riverlands are Jamie and
Brienne.
They're still there, haven'tmade their way out of it.
They kind of made their way outof the trenches that they were
(27:48):
in because they're in Harrenhalwith Roose Bolton but they're
still not in the best place,since they're with Roose Bolton
and they kind of have dinnerwith him and they talk about
returning Jaime.
Roose says that he'll sendJaime to King's Landing only on
the condition that Jaime swearto tell his father that Roose
Bolton was not personallyresponsible for memeing him.
Which is kind of funny becauseyou know, this is Roose Bolton
(28:08):
again trying to be like I didn'tdo anything.
I am your man you know what I'msaying Trying to show that I
deserve his loyalty as much aspossible.
And Jamie wants Brienne to gowith him but Bruce wants her to
stay and that's a kind ofunsettling, I don't know,
because he says, oh, she's aprisoner because she's committed
treason.
But you wouldn't trust anyone,I guess, with Rose Bolton.
(28:31):
Of course we care about Briennetoo much and we know that she's
going to go with Jamie anyways.
But to talk about Brienne, youknow she looks very ladylike in
the scene.
For the first time she'swearing like a nice, nicely
fitted dress.
It's pink and it's fur lined.
It's a very different contrastas to how the scene is depicted
in the book, because in the bookshe's wearing like they kind of
mock her for her size becauseyou know she's very tall and
(28:52):
she's like they kind of mock herfor it by giving her a very
like loose, fitting garment.
That's barely a dress.
You know what I mean.
That's how they kind ofhumiliate her.
It's kind of like a public likehumiliation, if that makes
sense Like she feels embarrassedfor how others see her.
Do you know what I mean?
Like it's understandable.
But, um, I love the the costumedesigner for game of thrones,
(29:14):
michelle clapson, because of thedetail and thought that she
puts into the costume sometimes,like in this scene.
Um, she went for a completelydifferent uh take and made that
dress like kind of form-fittingand overly ladylike, with the
pink and the fur lined, and madeit, like you know, show not
like too much skin but just abit around her neck.
So it did feel very feminineand that's kind of for Brienne
herself to feel humiliated kindof within herself, instead of it
(29:37):
being like a mockery for peopleto laugh at her.
She feels like she's like inthe wrong, like in the wrong
place.
You know what I mean.
Like, uh.
There's a quote from Claptonhere that I uh noted down when
she says I wanted Brienne to puton a dress and look rather good
in it, but be horrified abouthaving to wear it.
It's meant I'm going to skipthat.
For Brienne, it's mortifying.
(29:59):
The last thing she wants is tobe portrayed as a woman and, in
a way, to look good as a womanmakes it worse.
So we decided to rather go fora dress that looked good, but it
was her sense of horror thatmade it comfortable or
uncomfortable.
Comfortable or uncomfortable,yeah, yeah, um, so I just like
that detail and I wanted to tonote it down.
Um, and I also think that youknow, we see brienne kind of
(30:20):
humiliated and and, uh, inhorror on one side, but then you
also see jamie who kind oflooks and feels broken because
he's struggling to eat with hisone hand.
I just I don't know yeah youfeel for them a bit in the scene
.
Something that I hated too wasthat ruse tells him you are in
no place to insist on anything.
I would have hoped you'd havelearned your lesson about
overplaying your position.
He says that to jamie.
He would have never spoken tothe old jamie that way and the
(30:42):
old jamie never would react tothe way that this jamie reacts,
which is quietly.
He would have said something,would have drawn out of the
sword, he would have like, donesomething, obviously.
But this jamie is broken and hecan't do that, and he's quiet
and it's heartbreaking becausethat's, you know, like.
That goes back to an amazingquestion that we got in the last
episode in our anniversaryspecial.
Someone said do you think thatjamie would have gone down this
(31:04):
road if he hadn't gotten hishand cut off, or like, do you
think he was?
His character would havechanged, and this is proof that.
Um, obviously he needed that tohappen in order for him to
become the jay, that's what isthe show.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
The person he was yeah and for brianne, her
character is so great becauseshe isn't tied to politics or
power, it's all personal, sacredloyalty and oaths.
And then she'll promise mesomething she'll die trying to
to complete her mission or herjourney.
And that's what she does.
(31:35):
And she's like I promised, youknow, to return to King's
Landing and I'm eager to watchthe next episode because I don't
remember how they leaveHarrenhal.
I just remember them.
I just remember the bear andshe's trapped in the pit.
But I just like I said, it'sbeen years since I watched
(31:55):
season three.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
So that's it for the Riverlands.
Let's move on to King's Landing, where Jamie hopes to go.
So basically, olenna and Tywin.
Of course, these two plottingdivas are plotting and scheming.
Speaker 3 (32:05):
Did you just call Tywin a diva?
Speaker 2 (32:08):
Yeah, he's a diva, he is a diva.
Something that I kind of likedis that they're diva-off.
Elena and Tywin talk about therumors that are circulating
around their respective children, or, like grandchildren.
Elena's referring to Loras andhis rumors.
That's what they were kind oftalking about and Cersei I'm
sorry.
And Jaime.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
I'm sorry to interrupt, but the way she
refers to Loras.
I won't say it, but it's solike cutting and it's so her,
yeah, she was she how sheexplains him, and I love when
she puts tywin on the defense oflike well, you never, when you
were a little boy, you knowunder the sheets.
And so I was like never, I'venever done that he's so offended
.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
I'm like don't protest too much.
What I liked was that you kindof see the difference between
them, like, yeah, you can seethese two intelligent people
like talk and have that scenetogether.
But something that I noted bothkind of know the power of
people's opinions and he kind ofputs his assumption onto her,
like he thinks that she is thesame as him, but he kind of gets
(33:19):
a wake-up call that it's notreally that.
I don't know how to explain it.
Um, it's been a while sinceI've seen the episodes.
I wish I could go into moredetail about that, but, um, I
remember that being thestrongest takeaway that I had
from this episode, which is thatthey're both people that really
understand that.
They know that they kind ofhave to do something about those
rumors that are circulatingabout their heirs and they need
to fix it, even though they knowthat it won't really change
(33:42):
much.
It's just the public image andI don't know if you caught this
detail.
I think so it's kind of obvious, but I don't know, I didn't
make note of it before, but hewas going to pour her a glass
and she covers it.
Fear of poisoning, because youknow, like she knows better,
yeah, and she's already planningsomething.
So, yeah, so finally, olennalike kind of just accepts what
Tywin has been suggesting orhinting to, which is the
(34:04):
marriage between Loras andCersei, and she kind of just
like gives up and resent and notresent to that, sorry, relents,
uh, to that um, after she,after he threatens to make laura
as a member of the king's guardfor me that you'll never marry,
never have an heir, and, ofcourse, because they don't
include the other, uh, the othertyra sons, that's kind of like
a make or break situation forfor them here.
Um, but what I love is that she, she, she breaks his quill
(34:28):
after signing, like the likedoes she sign something, I don't
, she, she, I does, and then shekind of like breaks his quid,
or or, or he offers it to her tosign and she breaks it.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
I have to do like a retraction, or maybe I don't
know if I'm wrong or not, butTywin threatens to have Loras
put in the Kingsguard unlessOlenna accepts the marriage
proposal.
Now, for the past few episodesI've been saying that it's silly
Tywin to suggest his marriagepractice as Loras as a part of
the Kingsguard in the novel.
He's been a Kingsguard sincethe aftermath of the Battle of
(34:59):
Blackwater Bay, so at this stagehe's already a Kingsguard, so
he can't marry anyone.
And in the book Cersei wasoffered Willis Tyrell instead, a
character that was cut from theseries.
You mentioned that before, saida character that was cut from
the series.
You said you mentioned thatbefore and and thinking about it
, I'll never remember him sayingking's god.
I just assumed that he wasalready a king's guard and
that's dumb.
Why are they?
(35:20):
Why are they trying to make analliance?
But I want to do.
I want to talk about loris andsansa, because this, this scene,
was depressing to me, because Ifeel so sad for sansa at this.
Her heart is filled with joy.
She's imagining her life as theLady of Highgarden, not knowing
that there's a ton of bricksthat will be shattering her
(35:41):
dream anymore.
It's like she always has, like asecond of happiness and then
boom, it reminds me of seasonfinale, of season two.
She's freed from Joffrey andLittlefinger's.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
like she smiles for five seconds and then yeah yeah
and this reminds me of that uh,it's kind of it is a sad scene
between doris and and uh sansa,because you also do see her kind
of like, realize that'sactually this guy that I've
always had a crush on, isn'tthat's great of a person.
So you know, she's been holdingon to doris as being sort of
like her prince, charming herhope.
That's great of a person.
(36:13):
So you know, she's been holdingonto doris as being sort of
like her prince, charming herhope.
That's good.
This is going to change my life.
I'm going to be so happy withhim.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
And then she talks he has no like he's literally has
no.
He's chatting with her becausehe's being forced to.
Like he has no enthusiasm toknow, who she is and she's like,
okay, I guess, but but in hermind she's just thinking
whatever, I'm going to be out ofhere.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Yeah, this is better than everything else.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
Yeah, yeah.
If I have to deal with anot-so-great marriage, I'd
rather have that than being heretortured by these sadistic
fools here.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
And while they're having their unromantic moment,
there's a duo or I guess theirfuture spouses, cersei and
sirian kind of like, observethem from afar.
Sirian was like which one of usis, which one of the four of us
is going to be the unhappiest,like which one of us has it for
the worst, and he says, likeit's probably sansa.
I have a very like tiny detailabout the scene that I want to
(37:08):
talk about.
It's like very tiny, but I waslike why?
But I was like why is this athing?
Peter Dinklage, when he saysSansa's name, he doesn't say
Sansa, he says Sansa LikeS-U-N-S-A.
It's probably Sansa, and I'mlike Sansa is not her name, it's
Sansa, like it's probably Sansa.
And I was like that's like what.
(37:29):
Like that's where I was likeokay, yeah, he's not British.
Like those rare moments wherelike kind of like the character
breaks, I was like that's no,that's not right.
Anyways, I know it's likenitpicking, but I couldn't get
over Sansa.
But weirdly enough, in thisscene, like that aside, there's
another weird moment, which isthat Cersei kind of gives credit
(37:49):
to Tyrion for the Blackwaterwhich you'd never think that
you'd get from her.
So it feels like one of thosethings, one of the things you'll
do before you die, kind ofthings you know.
Like one of her last words, andhe confronts her about trying
to have him killed during theBattle of the Blackwater.
She's quiet, she doesn't reallyargue, and Tyrion then realizes
that while Cersei could commanda Kingsguard, she wouldn't
(38:10):
really do that.
And then he realizes that itmust have been Joffrey that
ordered the hits on him.
That's kind of like the puzzlepiece or like the gears in
Tyrion's head, and we see thathappen all in our screen at that
moment or in this scene.
Speaker 3 (38:24):
I do want to add that this is the closest we got to a
normal conversation betweenCersei and Tyrion.
There's no hate in their tone,no demeaning comments, just
asking for opinions and answers,and they actually get them.
They have a civil conversation.
You're like, oh okay, there'salways before this, every scene
(38:48):
with them would kind of startcivilly and Tyrion will say a
joke or you know, it's alwaysended in I hate you, I want to
kill you.
Like it's never, never likethis.
So it's kind of a uh, notrefreshing, but it's kind of.
It's kind of weird, becauseyou've grown to seeing these
people loathe each other andthen now they're like um, you
(39:11):
know, good siblings and just youknow, just let's just talk, not
.
But I guess the reason why isthey have something in common
and they're trying to figure outhow we're gonna get out of this
.
I'm you know, we're not bothbetrothed to people we don't
want to marry.
Peter dinklage is so good andhe enters the room with sansa
and shea.
He he's trying so hard not tobe gentle with her with the news
(39:34):
, like he doesn't say hey, bythe way, you can marry me tough,
tough crap.
You know what I deal with ityeah but here he.
We don't see the scene of himtelling her, we see the
aftermath of her crying and Ithink it's this storyline of
sansa in the Climb.
It kind of emphasizes her, Idon't know transformation from,
I guess, naive to a young womanwho's now experienced so much
(39:59):
betrayal.
And this is she's going toexperience something else in a
few episodes.
That just deepens her pain andher hurt and her heartbrokenness
, which eventually she begins toshape as I guess I don't know
how to say resilience in her.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
For all the people who hate Sansa, I'm like I just
feel for her, Especially in thisepisode.
I'm like, okay, just go, justgo, Just go to Highgarden.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
Isn't it awkward, though, that she's in the room.
Isn't that what Tyrion said?
Isn't that like the exact wordthat he was like?
This is going to be awkwardwhen.
Shay's there, and becauseShay's there, because Sansa
thinks that or Sansa thinks that.
You know, shay is like thisvery loyal person to her, which.
Speaker 3 (40:47):
I think she is, I think she is now, she is, she is
and she's in the corner, whichI think she is.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
I think she is now.
Speaker 3 (40:50):
She is, she is.
I think she's getting there.
But, it's funny that, like hesays he wants to have a word in
private.
And she's like no, no, you'regood, she's my bestie, you can
tell her, you can say whateveryou want, and that's what she
says.
I can't remember.
She does stay, she does stay,she does not go.
(41:12):
That's why Tyrion is like thisis going to be awkward.
I think we get to the point ofthe episode where it's the final
scene and that's withLittlefinger and Varys, and it's
in a show edition.
We do not get this in the book.
I'll just say it's my favoritescene from the episode, hands
down.
I know we have that momentwhere we say what's your
favorite scene?
I think this is.
It Gives me chills from thevery first line.
There's a bit of a setup withVarys beforehand, but it's this
(41:35):
moment that Littlefinger revealshow he views the game he's
playing.
What struck me the most was howhe talks about those who refuse
to climb and then when he'stalking, he's saying this
monologue and it turns into likea voiceover.
We finally see Littlefinger'sclaws come out in this speech
and it's it turns into like avoiceover.
We finally see little fingerslike claws come out in this
speech, because he's always beenreserved and you know he's
(41:57):
scheming and he's he's trying tofigure out a way to get more
power, but in this speech he hebasically is.
He's.
He's showing how cold-heartedand ambitious he is.
He proves this by trickingSansa, crushing her hopes, by
marrying Loras and then usingher, as you know, a political
game.
You know, we also see that hesent Ross to Joffrey.
(42:19):
So it shows that he has littlecare for human life.
He doesn't care about loyaltyor justice.
He only cares about who'sclimbing higher and gaining more
power, unlike Varys, who he'sfor the realm quote unquote.
And whoever wrote that, I guess, is our favorite people.
There's their lines.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
Do we have to?
Speaker 3 (42:43):
say that we have to give them some credit here.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
We'll give them credit, sure, but we want to say
our favorite people.
That's a bit drastic for a showthat features Emilia Clarark
and and has the with the bookswritten by george r martin, but
I will say that this is anamazing speech because it's kind
.
It's true, you know like thereare little fingers in this world
that kind of see chaos and uh,like this organization.
(43:06):
You know they see like um, Idon't know like, uh, like
political, economic events thatdisrupt everyday lives.
They see those events asopportunities to rise in rank
and make themselves useful.
So it's great insight.
It rings through Notnecessarily the most positive
(43:27):
thing, but that doesn't matter.
It's insight into whoLittlefinger is and I really
like that.
And, as you said, that showsthat the difference between
verus and um and littlefingerand littlefinger is that person
that would like climb like hewould.
I think he kind of sees eachperson.
I wouldn't see it really as aladder, but you know those rock
climbing walls he sees eachperson as like one of those, um,
(43:48):
those things that he latches onto, whereas with varus, I think
it like slithers his way to thetop, like he tries to go
undetected.
You know, he doesn't.
If there's something, ifthere's something chaotic going
on like a revolution or a betteror whatever, he's just suddenly
there and doing things andtaking care of things that
you're like, oh, this, this guyworks and like, yeah, sure, but
the little finger is like I didthis, I did that and this, and
(44:10):
then that's, and I have q and Idid, and I did this and I will
do this, and I have this in theworks and it's like, oh, okay,
like thanks, then you know, likeyou make your, you made
yourself useful and that way he,he kind of uh, I don't know
it's a difference like way oflooking at power.
There's power and being knownobviously like there's a finger
and power, and being unknownlike ferris, so I don't know.
(44:31):
I really love that.
It's a great.
It's a great, uh, it's a greatscene.
Speaker 3 (44:35):
I like that.
You said climb, I think.
Well, the episode's name yeah,little finger would not have any
issue.
Or thought on climbing on thebacks of many to get to the top,
oh yeah.
And then you have the oppositeof rob and john, who probably
would be in the bottom makingsure people get to the top
(44:56):
before they even start climbing.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
Yeah, and while everyone's talking about like
the opportunity of the climb,the episode ends with like I
guess a sweet, uh climb and likea nice kind of reward of a
successful climb.
That's not, I guess.
I was going to say it doesn'thave any intentions, but it does
.
I was going to say it's just asweet moment, I guess,
(45:19):
intentions aside, of John andYgritte on top of the wall
having like a nice romanticmoment.
The sweet like the calm beforethe storm, because I don't know
why I said it's without anyintentions, because they
obviously climbed that thing fora reason.
So yeah, um, the calm before themany storms ahead yeah, it
wasn't like like, I didn't seeit as like something so
(45:40):
political they're just becausein this episode they don't talk
about.
They were just like climbingdoing their thing.
So to me it wasn't like oh yeah, they're gonna heading to war,
it's like they're climbing.
Speaker 3 (45:50):
Why don't we go from that and just go straight to our
scene of the episode?
Okay, I already mentioned it'sLittlefinger's monologue.
Can I safely assume that's yourscene of the episode?
Speaker 1 (46:02):
Yes, okay.
Speaker 3 (46:03):
I mean Olenna and Tywin is fantastic, but this one
is just.
You know I get goosebumps andwith just the way that it was
edited, it was a perfect endingto the episode.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
I agree you know you mentioned this too, which is
that people had complaints withthis episode of calling it weak
because not like much happened.
But I think that's having kindof that thematic thread going
throughout it all really helped,which is, you know, like the
climb and like like I at all umreally helped, which is, you
(46:33):
know, like the climb and like um, uh, like I can't why, I can't
know why I'll like I can't findthe words for it in english but
like um, um, like socialclimbing, you know what I mean
like like rising to power.
It is an underlying theme inthis episode because it's kind
of behind every um storyline.
It's why and taiwan are doingwhat they're doing, because they
want to, like um, maintaintheir place at the top.
It's why Rob knew that he felldown the ladder, so now he knows
(46:54):
to climb back up because of thechaos that he created.
It's there in every scene.
Jamie has fallen off because ofhim losing his hand.
It's just that underlying theme, that thematic sorry,
connecting the episode togethermade it a strong episode of my
eyes.
So, um, yeah, I forgot whatyour question was, but that was
my thoughts on the episode.
Speaker 3 (47:17):
Uh, the question was scene of the episode.
But how about your rating forseason three, episode seven,
decline?
Speaker 2 (47:22):
oh yeah.
So then, like I did answer yourquestion and give my reasoning,
which is that which is why Ivalidated fingers scene, anyways
, I think I'd rate it.
Maybe I can.
8 points 8.5 feels generous, 8feels too low.
I'll give it an 8.5.
That's fine.
Speaker 3 (47:41):
I'm doing 8.5 because of the reason I gave you
earlier of watching this episode, and maybe it's because I
hadn't seen it in so long andreading those comments
beforehand and going wait aminute.
There's some crucial andimportant scenes and amazing
scenes, amazing monologues anddialogues, so I'm like what are
people talking about anyway?
So 8.5 out of 10.
We'd like to thank you all forlistening to dancing with
(48:03):
dragons.
If you're enjoying the ridethrough westeros with us, be
sure to follow us on instagramat dancing with underscore
dragons for updates, reelselsand more.
And if you've got a minute,leave us a rating and review on
any of the podcast platforms youuse.
It really helps other fans findthe show.
Next episode we'll be divinginto Season 3, episode 7, the
Bear and the Maiden Fair.
(48:24):
You won't want to miss that one, but in the meantime, peace out
.
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