August 19, 2025 • 59 mins
For the 70th episode of Dancing with Dragons podcast, Minwa & Tony unfortunately have to revisit the penultimate episode of season 3. Arguably one of television's most shocking moments…the "The Rains of Castamere," better known as the Red Wedding episode.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:19):
Your Grace, you're great.
I feel I've been remiss in myduties.
I've given you meat and wineand music, but I haven't shown
(00:43):
you the hospitality you deserve.
My king has married and I owemy new queen a wedding gift.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Hello everyone, welcome to Dancing with Dragons,
your go-to podcast foreverything related to Game of
Thrones, house of the Dragon andthe rest of George RR Martin's
A Song of Ice and Fire universe.
I'm Inua and I'm here todaywith my co-host, tony, and in
this episode we're continuingour rewatch of Game of Thrones,
season 3.
And today, unfortunately, we'refinally here.
We're covering Episode 9, theReigns of Castamere, also known
(01:26):
as the Red Wedding episode.
We have a lot to get into andwe're all looking forward to it,
or are anxiously awaiting ourcoverage, I guess, of the Red
Wedding and remembering it all.
But firstly, we just want toshare some Westerosi news that
we have from George's world.
I guess that we have fromGeorge's world, I guess George R
(01:46):
R Martin will actually beattending New York Comic Con on
October 9th to introduce HBO'sGame of Thrones spinoff, a Night
of the Seven Kingdoms.
There will be a panel on theshow.
George will be there, joined byshowrunner Ira Parker and the
show's stars Peter Clafly, whoplays Dunk and Dexter, saul, and
Cilla Blaise Egg.
There's also a new photo ofGeorge on set of the show, or on
set of the show.
We'll be sure to share that onour Instagram at
dancingwithunderscoredragons, incase you haven't seen it, and
we just wanted to share thatquick little update, since now
(02:07):
we all have an estimate as towhen we'll be getting updates on
Eyes of the Seven Kingdoms.
We're kind of left in the darkafter the show was delayed.
It was supposed to havepremiered already, or it was
supposed to premiere this fall,but it was delayed to 2026.
But now we know get an update,which is going to be in October.
So look forward to then foranything new from the world of A
Song of Ice and Fire.
And in the meantime let's recapthe show and let's discuss the
(02:28):
Red Wedding.
Now the episode is known as theRed Wedding but, as I mentioned,
the episode is actually titledthe Reigns of Castamere.
The episode is named after thesong the Reigns of Castamere,
which is the unofficial anthemof House Lannister and Tywin
Lannister.
It's like their in-world themesong, kind of not the official
one on the soundtrack, of courseand the song actually refers to
(02:50):
the destruction of House Rainof Castamere after the rebellion
against House Lannister.
The song was heard in previousepisodes, notably Blackwater and
Dark Wings and Dark Words, andits backstory was explained in
the previous episode, secondSons.
We didn't note that in theprevious episode, so we weren't
like oh, they're talking aboutthe reigns of Castamere, this is
all.
This is the title of the nextepisode and this is what the Red
Wedding's all about, which iskind of funny.
(03:11):
The episode premiered on June2nd 2013 on HBO.
It was written by David Benioffand Davey Weiss and directed by
of the season, the last twoepisodes of season five and the
first two episodes of seasoneight.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
So he directed the best two episodes of season
eight.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Exactly Now.
We all know what's going tohappen in this episode, but
let's talk about the officialpremise of the episode.
So here, rob presents himselfto Walder Frey, edmure meets his
bride, jon faces a harsh test,bran discovers a new gift, dario
and Jorah debate and House Freyjoins with House Tully.
King's Landing and all of itsassociated characters and
(03:50):
storylines do not appear in thisepisode at all.
This makes it the first episodenot to even have a single scene
in King's Landing and it's thefirst episode of the series that
doesn't feature a singleLannister.
It's kind of like I needed abreak from them, honestly, but
they're there in spirit,unfortunately.
So I was kind of dreadinggetting to this episode.
(04:10):
I'll be honest, tony, like Ihave fun recording this podcast
with you, I have fun watchingthe show with you, like
rewatching it and discussing itwith you you know regularly but
I was dreading this moment, inall honesty, and my rewatch of
the episode honestly was toughand I'm wondering how you found
it.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Honestly, revisiting the Red Wedding still hits like
a gut punch and even though weknow it's coming, it doesn't
soften the blow.
If anything, it makes it worse.
You're watching the slow buildof tension and you're seeing
this fake warmth, the musiccreeping in and then it just
explodes into chaos.
And I mentioned to you beforethe recording that you know the
(04:49):
episode.
I think it's 52 minutes longand we don't get to the scene
until like minute 46.
So literally like the last fourfive minutes of the show is the
chaos of the violence, thegoing back and forth from the
dining hall to Aria, back andforth.
(05:11):
That was all five minutes, butit felt like an eternity for
those who are following for thefirst time.
It's going.
You don't know what's happening.
At first you're obviouslyyou're shocked, and then it's
going back and forth.
You don't know what's happeningwith Arya.
But you know what?
I have a plethora of notes togo through and I think you have
(05:32):
the same, because you're thenote queen.
We'll leave this for the lastbit of the episode because
there's so much to cover.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
So let's just start with Daenerys, because her
scenes were short and we'll justgo from there there and then
we'll give the listeners alittle slow build up too.
So just because it is asignificant event for her kind
of, but it's just we're sofocused on what's going to
happen that we just want to seeeverything related to the Red
Wedding.
So every time they switchedback to Essos and Dany's story,
(06:14):
I just felt a bit like okay,like maybe this could have
waited for one more episode.
But that's fine, it's fine.
I'm never going to complainabout seeing Dany.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
Yeah, I think that this, these scenes should have
(06:46):
been in the next episode.
I felt like this episode shouldhave been focused just on
Starks, just on Jon, bran,rickon, robb and Arya.
That's it.
No, sansa, she's at King'sLanding, but I think even going
to visit Sam for that one-minutescene felt, you know what.
Let's stick to the twins beyondthe wall with John and Bran, or
actually south of the wall.
They're not beyond anymore.
So, yeah, I think that Danyscenes didn't fit.
I mean, it's cool to see.
Obviously I don't mind seeingher, but I think, since the next
episode is a big one for her,uh, I think it would have worked
a little bit better.
Just add a few minutes to thatfinale and I think it would have
(07:09):
flowed better.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
That's the word I was trying to say um, because
everything that's happened todanny's storyline in this
episode as well, it kind ofhappens off screen.
We see like a bit of tensionbetween dario and jorah and
they're kind of like talkingabout yunkai and how to win I
guess not win over the city, butI guess how to conquer it and
defeat them and take over thecity.
For Dany and I honestly don'thave much to say.
(07:33):
They successfully do it, eventhough it was like a tough
challenge for them.
And Dany's leveling up, I guess, in her side quest of ruling
over Slaver's Bay and stuff.
So I don't like calling it aside quest, but it's the closest
thing I can do.
Her main goal is obviously toget to Westeros and she needed
to do these things, which isalso not really so.
I just felt like okay, fine,you know.
(07:54):
Like yeah, okay, not justwhatever, but she did it.
Okay, let's move on.
You know what I mean.
I love her, but like okay, shechecked the box yeah, it's.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
She is decisive.
It's a clever military move,but it's all handled off screen.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
I love Dani.
I just want to get herstoryline in this episode over
with, because the others werejust I don't know.
They overshadowed Dani in thisepisode.
Sorry, like Dani's action whenit happens off screen it's, it's
not waiting.
Come on, you know what I mean.
Like I can't.
I can't call it a danny episode, even if I tried so yeah,
that's why we're gonna move on.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
We're gonna go to sam and gilly really quick, not
even like a 60 minute.
60 minute, 60 second.
Uh, he impresses gilly with thebook learning of history.
How do you know this like?
So you read symbols and youknow what?
Are you a wizard?
And it took me back to when hesaid did he say I want to be a
wizard in season one?
Speaker 2 (08:48):
I think so.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Oh my god they're on the top of the wall.
He's on top of the wall, john,and something.
He goes.
I just I wanted to be a wizard,uh, so I I started laughing, uh
, but she, she's more impressedby seeing the wall.
Anyway, that, that was prettymuch it yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
I just wanted to to like say that.
I just googled that really fastand it's that uh quote is
accurate.
John was opening up to sam andsays I always wanted to be a
ranger and john and then samsays I always wants to be a
wizard it's really funny and Ithink you can see him kind of
like chuck it at that, notbecause Gilly's naive, but
because like, yeah, like that'skind of, I think.
(09:29):
I think he felt seen I don'tknow, I don't know over, like
over, analyze it, but like thatwas, that was cute, that was a
cute moment.
And something to note as wellis that Gilly makes a quick
remark.
She says something like oh, mydad always said that if anyone
that sees the wall instantlydies.
So I think that's justinteresting to know that the
Wildlings and Craster's people,everyone north of the wall, they
(09:52):
have their own weird suspicionsthat don't really make sense
about the wall and everythingsouth.
You know, the same way that theSoutherners, I guess, see the
north of the wall people acertain way and what they do and
everything above the wall islike they see it in a certain
way, like as a big danger.
So do the northern or seats ofthe southerners.
So, yeah, um, so let's move onfrom salmon glee, because that's
(10:12):
uh it's, and I think we shouldjust like move slightly like
north or south, I guess, or likearound that area and talk about
bran and john, because theirstorylines like almost in this
episode, which is insane.
I completely forgot about this.
So, talking about Bran first ofall, I just want to start there
.
I think it's easier.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
And you know, what's even crazier is that it happens
to Mor Stark.
So you had Arya so close to herbrother and her mother and,
yeah, I completely forgot aboutthat as well.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Yeah, I wrote it down Like this was the episode of
almost reunions Almost there wasalmost there, cause even like
John and and and Sam, they'renot too far apart.
If you think about itgeographically, they're in the
same area.
So you have John and Bran andRakan, so like him and his
siblings, or like cousins, Iguess, and then you have John
(11:06):
and sam and gilly as well, beingyou know like in the same
vicinity still.
So it's kind of insane.
I'll say one last thing.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
One last thing about sam, or anybody in this world,
is that you have to have anincredible memory because, like
for me, if I was in this worldand I would reading all these
books, I would forget everylittle detail.
And he's like, oh yeah, I knowbecause I read this book.
And how long did you read thatbook?
How do you still know everylittle?
You know what I mean.
Like yeah, you gotta have thatgood memory to like I would be
(11:34):
like, yeah, maybe it's in this,this castle, I don't know.
Like let me get my notes out.
Oh, oh, my battery's gone.
I can't check it.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Yeah, like I mean, I guess then you'd have like a
different profession.
That's why Sam's like a maester,right, because he has that mind
, he knows he has that likememory bank.
But yeah, moving on to Bran,who also, like has some mind
powers, I guess, revealed orutilized in this episode.
So before I get to that, we seethat Bran and his group, trojan
and Rakan and co, are in thearea of Westeros called the Gift
(12:07):
, and this was actuallysomething we discussed when we
talked about Dancing withDragons, when we talked about
House of the Dragon, I thinkwhich is like the Gift is the
stretch of land south of theWall which was gifted to the
Night's Watch thousands of yearsago by Bran and the Builder,
and they kind of use that landfor their needs, their needs,
you know, for like farming andeverything, and they don't
really use it anymore.
And they make a note of thatbecause, um, like they kind of
(12:29):
just don't really need that landfor for their farming and all
of that anymore.
But it's uh noteworthy, I thinkthey they do talk about it in,
uh in house the dragon whenthey're talking about king
jaharis and stuff.
I am I'm pretty sure that thatwe talked about that at some
point, and they talk about it aswell in this episode too,
saying that you know why don'tpeople just live in this area of
land, this stretch of land?
(12:49):
There's no war here and youknow you can farm on this land,
and that's when they give usthat quick Like this is the
history lesson, I guess, justbehind what they're talking
about.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
Well, I think that Bran says oh, oh, yeah, he does
and Rick was like oh yeah, oh,nan said they would use their
skulls for to drink blood.
And you see, osho like reallyyou believe that?
Speaker 2 (13:15):
like kind of take shelter and rest.
I guess there was like a storm,I think, and they were
basically resting and keepingsafe in an abandoned mill.
And then actually like pause.
I was going to go to John now,yeah, yeah yeah, like pause,
let's talk about John.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
I was going to say that they're like hand in hand,
so I think the scenes arehappening at the same time
Because, john, they'd want toattack the horse breeder for the
night's watch yes and then allof a sudden the horse breeder
escapes and he ends up at thatsame gift tower and that's how
(13:55):
they almost have that reunion.
Uh, but I do want to say thatthis, this episode is, it was a
test.
It was the final test for Johnto see if he was a true like
deserter of the night's watch.
Yeah, yeah.
And obviously he failed becausehe's, you know, he even despite
his feelings for Egret, heultimately chose to remain loyal
(14:16):
to the night's watch, you know,leading to the you know the
skirmish and him killing of umor.
Or now john gives, he slaps hissword against rocks, giving a
little subtle warning to thebreeder and to the horses.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
So the horses, all of a sudden they start getting
jumpy and kind of warned thebreeder to like get out of there
so I thought that was reallyclever it's kind of like
something that we're waiting foras well, without realizing that
we're waiting for it, with itbeing john's test of loyalty,
like we know that he can't keepup this act for for forever, you
know.
You know that it's bound to toreach this kind of point where
(14:58):
he has to kind of reveal himselfas being loyal to the water,
loyal to the wildlings,andgritte.
So when it actually happens andhe leaves them, we're like, oh,
here it is, like here's thekind of like the moment we've
been waiting for and we realizewhere that storyline is likely
heading.
And it's kind of, I guess it'skind of bittersweet, because you
get that satisfaction and thatrelief, I guess, of knowing that
(15:18):
Jon is still Jon and he's loyalto the Watch and he's that
character that we know.
But at the same time we're like, but Ygritte, like what's going
to happen?
And at this point we still seeTormund and the others as like
villains, right, so we're notrooting for them, we don't know,
like, where their storylinesare going to end up.
So it just feels a bit like.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
I don't know disbelief yeah she's like, she
can't, like, she actually isshocked that he is still, you
know, a member of the night'swatch, essentially like she
thought, oh, he's my man andhe's gonna, he's for me, he's
never gonna leave me and thenher, her face.
It is a betrayal like her faceand you know it's, and he's a
(16:03):
star to the bone.
He's too loyal, he cannot.
Yeah, he loves her, but he hasan oath that he cannot.
Well, he broke the oath anyway,but you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Yeah, I know, I know and I think that like that anger
that we see in her is the factthat she's angry at his betrayal
.
But also, I can you can see itin her face that she's kind of
angry at herself because she waswarned against him.
You know, like they kepttelling her in the show like
don't trust him, he's not goingto be loyal to us and she's the
only one that believed in himand you could kind of see that
(16:34):
she feels like she betrayed herown people.
But when john leaves them it'skind of it's it's heartbreaking
to see, even though it's likekind of really fast.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
You can see it's all on rose leslie's face, she's an
amazing actress she was seducedby the curls, by the eyes come
on.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
I think that.
I don't think it's just that.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Come on, give her some credits, uh yeah, is there
any guy who looks like that inin the?
Any wildling that looks likejohn?
Speaker 2 (17:01):
sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry.
Oh, yeah, true, when you saywildling, fine, when you said
first you said any guy in theworld, he's saying any guy in
the world with john's curls.
And then you were giving like,giving me a like, I don't know,
like a lecture, for is it sayingthat rob looked glorious or
something majestic once, andyou're saying no one looks like
it's harrington in the entireworld.
Come on, I'm joking now.
Um, uh, but yeah, uh, they bothlook like amazing, but anyways.
(17:26):
So, yeah, I'm glad to see thatfrom from john, and we actually
also.
We didn't talk about it before,but him killing oral is kind of
like a significant moment forhim as well, because, yes, he's
protecting himself, but at thesame time, we didn't see john
really kill anyone other thanthan corin, right and with core,
and it was kind of like he wasdoing his duty.
Here it's self-defense, and Ithink that definitely leaves an
(17:48):
impact, because it's not just,you know, fulfilling his duty
and doing kind of the rightthing.
Killing Corrin was the rightthing he was told to do.
That, you know, here it's kindof like something that he's
doing of his own free will andhe, like we can see him during
the battle grappling with isthis what I think to do or not?
And then he eventually like,just like you can see it in his
eyes, and then he just kills himand knows that this is this.
(18:10):
Is that, I think?
Because he's protecting himselflike come on and I think saving
the watch he I don't thinkthere's any grappling.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
He, when he shoves that sword into him, he gives
him like yeah, you were right.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Like oh, he did say that.
He did say that he was like you, were always right about me and
he, he looked satisfied,looking.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
I don't think I.
I think killing other peopleyeah, maybe torment would would
have been, uh, he would havethought twice, but not against
this guy.
He was ready to to kill thisguy.
Um, this, this also he's hadenough yeah, he's had enough.
You think about this episode,we always think about, you know
the last five minutes, but thisis a massive turning point in
(18:52):
brand's arc.
Like yeah, I was gonna say thatas well now he has this
incredible, like mystical powerthat he can wield and like warg
into humans, because that'snever been done before.
I kind of got a flashback tonot a flashback when I saw him
working too I guess you meanlike you're remembering what
happens to hodor rather than hispowers.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Yeah okay, I thought you meant about the, the working
ability this is.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
It's also sad.
You know what?
Speaker 2 (19:21):
this is the last time he'll see Rickon yeah, yeah,
that's what I'm gonna say aswell, like, like it's, it's.
You don't realize how sad thisepisode really really is,
because you have the John andYgritte's like uh, separation,
and you have the the Brian andRickon separation you have, and
then you have the almost threereunions with John and Brian and
(19:42):
and Rickon as well, and thealmost reunion at the at the red
wedding, and then you have thealmost reunions with Jon and
Bran and Rurik Khan as well, andthe almost reunion at the Red
Wedding, and then you have theRed Wedding.
So it's like an episode ofreunions and separations.
You know it's so sad it's soit's like that's bad, it's just
it's a heartbreaking episode, asyou said.
Like back to Bran, because thisis where their stories kind of
merge.
(20:02):
Outside that tower we see theman that Jon saved kind of like
run power flex, like no, hewasn't running, he was on like a
horse thing right, a horsething.
He was on like some sort ofanimal and he was safe.
Some horse thing.
Some horse thing.
Every horse is now some horsething.
(20:22):
But then, yeah, bran kind ofenters the mind of Summer and
works into him to save Jon,which is also like a really good
moment, and I wish we saw eventhough we do, as you said,
mention that we see the workinginto Hodor in season six.
I don't think that we seeenough of the working, because
it is present in the books,isn't it?
It's so, it's.
(20:44):
It's not just like some rareevent that occurs, it's, it's a
part of the book.
So yeah and remember this is arare moment all the starks are
able to do it.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
I was thinking about when john's fighting.
Did he not notice that thoseare two dire wolves?
Oh my god, you're right waitlike all of a sudden, like he
hasn't seen summer and shaggywolf since he left to the wall
and they weren't as big,obviously, because you know how
huge they are, but he could havebeen like, wait a minute, what?
(21:16):
What are these dire wolves justshowing up all of a sudden?
Speaker 2 (21:19):
I mean, yeah, like that.
I think that's the onlyexplanation that we can, john
not noticing them.
It's just probably because hewas fighting for his life,
otherwise we can consider it aplot hole.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Yeah, and it's something that we, as fans,
we're so desperate for thatStark reunion, right, and we're
like, okay, this is it, he's outthere.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
And then we don't get a Stark reunion until season
six when Sansa shows up at themaids watch or castle black I
was looking into this episodeand I actually found like a
piece of information that I kindof forgot about, like the canon
, the world of game of thrones,it's when you mentioned it as
well, when they mentioned, um,old nan, hodor was a bit sad
(21:59):
about that.
They were like oh, the reasonwhy, like they, they made hodor
like a bit obsessed, and duringthe scene, the mentioning of old
nan is because in the canonhodor is old nan's great
grandson and I completely forgotthat, I didn't know, and
something else that I kind ofthought was like a like just
another note about this scene,like the last notes I want to
say, is that when bran likebasically says, like you know,
(22:20):
we have to separate, me andrecon have to separate, I think
that it's like when we actuallysee Bran maturing, because he
obviously takes that decision,because he knows that as the
last two heirs of Winterfell, itmight be safer for them if
they're not together.
And sure, it probably wasn'tthe wisest decision because of
where Rikon ends up and he endsup with the Boltons and
everything later on.
But at the end of the day, Ithink that it came from a place
(22:42):
of maturity for Bran where herealizes this because he's not
just a kid anymore.
You know what I mean.
He's not just this kid that'sbeing like, oh, me and my
brother have to stay together.
He actually sees the dangers ofthe world during this moment
and is like, no, it probablyisn't our best interest for us
not to be in the same place atthe same time, because we are
two valuable targets and we'reboth heirs to Winterfell, and I
(23:06):
don't know if I'm going tosurvive this because especially
he's thinking this because ofhis own powers and it might be
safest to keep Rickon in adistant space.
So I just want to note thatthis is probably a significant
another why, another reason whyit's a significant moment for
Bran.
But yeah, so let's move on toanother dear, dear Stark that we
have in this episode, andthat's Arya.
Arya has a brief scene in thebeginning, like kind of separate
(23:28):
from everybody else, where sheand the Hound are obviously on
their way to the Twins.
He's going to ransom her off toher mom and her brother and
they make it just outside theTwins like they're in the
Riverlands area and like theHound, as he does, gets into
like a thing with a guy, likethey're just arguing and he was
about to kill him.
And then Arya says I wrote itdown because I love this scene.
(23:51):
This was like a small moment,but I loved it.
She says don't kill him.
You're so dangerous, arya,saying scary things to little
girls, killing little boys andold people.
A real hard man you are.
And I just love that scenebecause no one calls out the
hound like that ever, you know,and it's like she's belittling
him, being like yeah, you're,you're, you're, you think you're
(24:11):
, you're scary.
Just because you, you targetlike what?
Little girls and little boysand old people like those are
easy targets.
You're not a strong, hard man,scary warrior.
If your targets are childrenand old people, you're a loser,
you know.
And I love that because no onesays that to the house.
Everyone always looks at himwith fear and with loathing, you
(24:32):
know, and no one really likeshim.
And she's just like you think.
You think you're so tough.
If you're so tough, why areyour targets like people that
are so helpless?
Prove yourself.
And I love that because onlyArya would say that.
Only Arya would do that.
And even when he says somethinglike he defends himself, like,
even though it wasn't in a realgood way, she was like you're
wrong, I know a real killer,you're nothing, she's like that.
(24:54):
She he'd kill you with hisfinger and uh, I just loved it
so much it was.
It was, it was a cool scene.
And then I don't know we'regoing to talk about what's.
I'm going to leave that untilthe end of the episode.
I hope I remember, because thenI was, I was going to go
completely different, or I'lljust say it now because I don't
gonna forget.
Do you think if the hound ummade it the day before before,
(25:15):
like, and gave Arya up to them,would they have killed Arya as
well?
Speaker 3 (25:20):
I don't think Arya would have been, because I
didn't see any children there atthe wedding.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
But that's the thing they killed his unborn baby.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
Yeah, they wouldn't have had any issue killing her,
because if they're murdering apregnant woman, yeah, exactly.
Yeah, so she would have beenkilled.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Okay, before we say this, pause on the what ifs,
listen and talk about more whenthe wedding actually happens.
Because I don't want to saysomething about aria as well,
because we get two scenes ofthem before the red wedding, the
second time we see theminteract for the red wedding.
Um, the hound and aria.
Um, we see aria.
She looks hopeful.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
I read it as her being hopeful when she sees the
twins what I see in her eyes, Isee is hope, feeling that okay,
I'm so close I've been a part offrom my family for I guess I
don't know what's the timelinehere at least a year and a plus,
right yeah, yeah so I I thinkher looking to the twins and
(26:18):
seeing that there's my family,I'm safe.
Finally, when you can act withyour eyes, you are a very good
actor.
Yeah.
You know when people can justtell you what they're feeling,
which is the look on their faceand how their eyes are moving,
that's just a sign of a greatactor and she's a very good
actor, actress, actor.
The next time we see her, she'sthey're going, they're trying
(26:45):
to get into the twins andbasically they lock down because
we have the bedding ceremony,right, actually, let's go to
when they arrive at the twins.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
That's actually the first episode.
Even before that, there's ascene between Rob and Kat before
they arrive.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
There's the first first scene, this first scene
with Walder Frey, where Rob isapologizing.
First of all, I wouldn't haveapologized in front of everybody
.
I would have said I need tospeak with your daughters in
private and apologize Because Idon't know.
I felt like it made him look alittle weak to apologize in
front of everybody.
(27:23):
The reason why I say that isbecause Walder Frey is so snarky
and so curmudgeon.
What he says about Talisa issomething that could have had
his tongue removed.
Yeah.
Any other king and you know, youcan see.
You know what I'm talking about, right.
Like oh, I would have broken50-0s for you and your body and
(27:44):
this.
And it's just like right, thenand there, rob needed to do
something.
He can't have this guy talk toyou or your queen like that, so
that really pissed me off.
That's another moment of like,rob, you didn't do anything Like
is it really that important?
And I go back to why didn't youjust go to Renly?
Why didn't you just go to Renly?
Why didn't you just go toStannis?
(28:05):
Here, I don't care.
I don't want to be the king ofthe north.
Let's help each other out.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Stannis was the real, real missed opportunity.
I think for Rob that washorrible, and Edmure is the big
mistake in all this as well,because if it wasn't for him, it
would have been all okay.
Stannis probably would havebeen on the throne.
As we said Again, if you wantto know the context behind that,
you have to go all the way backto our previous episodes and be
(28:30):
up to date on our podcast,especially the Battle of
Blackwater episode.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
But anyways, I'm sorry, but then you have Walder
introducing like 10 of hisdaughters and granddaughters,
and not their fault, they're notyou, you know.
Quote unquote game of thrones,beautiful, like marjorie and
cersei and all those daenerys,it's not.
You know what I mean.
So it's kind of like they allhave weird names wilda, juanina
(28:57):
or something some kind of weird.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
And uh, and mirs was like his face is so upset oh, I
know, I know, but like, then heends up getting like, he ends up
marrying one of the prettiestgirls there, right, like I
forgot and I think that'stotally a dig on rob he he oh,
yeah, true, true he purposelydid not have her there in the
(29:24):
beginning, so the one that heunveiled her he'd be like see
what you missed.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
You could have this.
I'm going to be all over theplace, but there's a moment
where Catlin is talking to theBlackfish and he's like this man
complained all through theKing's Road, he was moping and
all that, and all of a suddenhe's there having having a great
time, because now he has abeautiful bride.
Everything is forgiven.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Yeah, I want to wait.
I want to before I forget.
I want to make a note aboutwhat you said about Rob's
apology.
Like I completely understandwhat you're coming from, where
you're coming from and beinglike it is weak.
I think I just want to say thatfor rob I think in his mind he
was probably like apologizing infront of everybody is the noble
thing to do, because he neverpublicly like acknowledged what
(30:12):
he did.
You know what I mean so I thinkthat this is him thinking I'm
gonna say that it was in thename of love and then this is
going to absolve me becauseeverybody will understand the
power of the love and and Iapologized, so it's going to
resonate and everybody's goingto.
You know, I don't think he seesthis weakness and I I don't
necessarily see it as weakness,but I do think that he should
(30:32):
have done something.
When Walder Frey, like I,insulted his wife and Catherine
stopped him because he was goingto say something he was going
to he was he moved before that?
Speaker 3 (30:47):
I will say this I kind of understood where he was
coming from, because it was likea public acknowledgement and
being like it was a very yes, Idon't know apology and it was
very nice and I think it madethem feel a little better, but I
just think it could have beendone in private we mentioned
this a couple of episodes agohis whole thing.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Suddenly to like get the, to get casterly rock to
show that taiwan is, is notinvincible.
That's such a dumb side questlike that, come on like.
That's not what you're fightingfor.
That's why rob lost his, hisarmy, because that's not what
they're fighting like.
Why, just to show a force, justto show that you're strong and
he's weak, that's, that's notserving your best interest.
(31:20):
That's not fighting for yourfamily, that's not fighting for
your land, that's just trying toto, I don't know, boost, boost
your own ego and destroy anotherman's ego.
That has no real like um gainfor you.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (31:33):
Like that, that's just a bad side quest and also
caitlin saying, uh, she doestell him, look, if we get caught
here, we're between the sea andand their army will be dead,
which should have been a redflag.
Let's not do it.
Let's just focus on what weneed to do.
Let's try to salvage anysupport that we lost or try to
(31:56):
regain the support, but no,let's do like you said the side
quest that's going to make us gothrough this guy that we
spurned or, you know, offendedby breaking the oath.
You're rewatching this for the.
I don't know how many times,but if you're watching it for
the first time, you're like well, maybe they're going to get
away with it.
(32:16):
I think you know, for now hehad to endure some insults to
his queen, but when you get tothe wedding part, people are
having fun, they're chattingthey're drinking You're like,
okay, well, maybe, but then inthe pit of your stomach you're
like well, this is a penultimateepisode.
You know what happens in seasonone Ned dies.
(32:38):
Season two is Blackwater andsomething has to happen, right,
because this is a tradition.
Now the first game of thronesand people were waiting for
something, because the wargingwith that that's not a big
enough twist for us to be like,oh yeah, that's a great episode.
Something has to, yeah.
And I guess when one you knowyou have you, this music starts
(33:04):
playing and then you realizesomething's wrong because you
see Catlin's face you heard thestory about the song from the
previous episode you feel like,ok, well, there's no Lannisters
here, but we're listening totheir quote theme song or their
(33:25):
revenge song.
We put the audio up in thebeginning of the episode of you
know, they close the doors, theyhave the bedding ceremony,
which, funny enough, we talkedabout the bedding ceremony in
the last episode because Tyrionand Sansa was married and they
kind of show it here.
And here's what I saw.
(33:46):
I saw the bride frightenedabout what was happening and I
saw the groom excited becauseall these women are touching him
.
You know what I mean.
So you have the bride beingfondled by all these drunk men.
And then you have the guy.
So it's kind of a weirdtradition.
Even to us it's like what theheck is going on here?
(34:07):
Yeah you know to, yeah, youknow what.
That's just the way it is.
It's true, like who cares?
right, even ramsay bolton's like, oh, you should have, or you
had to endure that in yourwedding, and then she says
something that ned forbade itright like he didn't want to
have to break somebody's jaw onhis wedding night, which, yeah,
(34:27):
that was just for the show, andI think in the book it does
mention that they did have abedding ceremony, and I think
that's just for the show arc,right, or?
Speaker 2 (34:37):
did.
Yeah, I just want to mentiontony.
You said, uh, ramsay boltonit's not Ramsey.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
Oh sorry um Rose Bolton.
Yeah, because.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
I was a bit like like we haven't seen it.
We haven't really like, well,we have seen it but we haven't
really like.
You know it's not.
Um, yeah, I think it doeshappen in the book.
I remember something like thatbeing mentioned.
For sure, when I listen to theaudiobook for for a storm of
sorts, um, and yeah, when youmentioned that, like you're
thinking, oh, it's like it mightget away, when you're wondering
(35:08):
, I, I don't know because I,we're gonna get to this, but I
was always wondering how peoplereacted to the red wedding for
the first time and, um, that'swhat we're gonna get to
eventually, other people'sreactions, but it doesn't seem
like that's where the show is,like that's what's Obviously,
who would expect the slaughter,you know, as you said, like they
closed the doors.
It seems normal, nothing'sgoing wrong.
(35:30):
Even at the beginning of thispodcast episode, when you played
the scene, like the music isnot sad, like before it
transitions into like the eeriemusic, you know, like the Reigns
of Castamere and stuff, it wasvery like fine, it was normal.
It sounds like jolly.
Like who would expect that redepisode, that the red?
Speaker 3 (35:49):
wedding would start with that music unless you're
very, very clever and you'relike wait a minute.
Cersei's talked about thereigns of castamere and the
origins and now I just saw onthe caption and said reigns of
castamere, music.
What's gonna happen?
Imagine imagine like if youcould put two into it, but I
don't think people are doingthat, and it's just a funny
(36:11):
thing that this.
What makes for me like okay,now the violence starts, and
then you get something thatprobably never was shown on tv
is a pregnant woman beingstabbed repeatedly.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Yeah, in the belly.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
In the belly, like straight on the belly.
What makes the violence soeffective and disturbing is how
suddenly it unfolds.
So one moment there's music and, like I said, there's toast,
and then next, boom, pregnantTalista is being stabbed and Rob
and Catn are surrounded bysmiling killers.
(36:47):
So it's not like stylizedviolence, it's raw, it's ugly,
it's freaking, like terrifying,you don't know what to do.
The camera doesn't flinch, isright there.
It doesn't glamorize.
It, instead of like you'retrapped and it within the
audience, like you, you'rehelpless because you can't
believe that this is happeningto your favorite characters, the
(37:07):
Starks.
Like how much can this familyendure?
How much pain and suffering?
Really?
Why do you, george, why do youhate this family so much?
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Like we thought these were the heroes.
Yeah, I think you have it Likea quote from George where he
talks about why he had to do itlike he.
Like he kind of killed thembecause, not because he loved
them, but because it's somethingthat he had to do despite the
fact that he loved them so much.
Do you have that quote from himwhen he talked?
Speaker 3 (37:35):
about?
Yeah, I think he did a uminterview with entertainment
weekly in 2013 and they askedhim how early in the process of
writing the book series did youknow you were going to kill off
Robin Catlin?
He replied, I quote I knew italmost from the beginning, not
the first day, but very soon.
I've said in many interviewsthat I like fiction to be
(37:56):
unpredictable.
I like there to be considerablesuspense.
I killed Ned in the first bookand it shocked a lot of people.
I killed Ned because everybodythinks he's the hero, but then
he'll somehow get out of it.
The next predictable thing isto think his eldest son is going
to rise up and avenge hisfather, and everybody's going to
expect that.
(38:16):
So immediately quote killingRob became the next thing I had
to do.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
I get him.
But hearing him phrase it inthat way is kind of like
bringing back war flashbacks, ofbeing like I'm gonna do this to
subvert expectations from danand dave.
You know, when they when theysaid that about season eight.
But yeah, like it works withwith george, because it's doing
something different, it's takingin like something.
I mean it's actually planningsomething and reworking it.
(38:47):
You know, it's not just lettinggo of an entire character arc
overnight, so it's different.
But it did remind me,unfortunately, of the trauma of
Dan and Dave's quote being likewe're going to have Danny do
this to subvert expectations atthe last minute because she
wouldn't see the thing cominglike oh anyways, um, but I have
(39:07):
a no, sorry, I have anotherquote from george that says when
the book came out storm ofswords, I got a tremendous
reaction to it.
Speaker 3 (39:15):
I got angry letters that said I will never read your
work again and the tv showversion is 13 years later and I
knew, having been through itonce, we would get the similar
big reaction.
And he actually came out inconan, uh, I think a few months
after, uh, the the show airedand conan showed him a little
(39:36):
montage of people yeah, yeahpeople reacting to the red
wedding and george was giddy hegoes.
Well, those people who wererecording are the people who
read the book, so they wanted tosee the reaction and that's how
kind of like before thatreactions to anything was not a
thing like that.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
That was kind of like the first thing of people like
like.
Speaker 3 (39:56):
I've showed you the reaction.
When I recorded my son, I sentyou the seven minute video and
he's just kind of like.
If you see him he's like indisbelief, he goes what?
and he felt so betrayed.
To his credit, he kept watchingimmediately like he wanted to
watch the next episode.
But we did put out a quicklittle prompt to ask people
(40:19):
their reactions or they had anyquestions, and I did get three
people who basically said thesame thing.
So let me just say so I havejohnboyltgmoviesrus underscore
and then travelenthusiast withsimilar stories, saying that I
(40:41):
was traumatized and I quit theshow but eventually went back to
it, which is something that alot of people did after Jon
Snow's death, which was my son.
My son had the same reaction.
He's like I'm done with theshow because he after Rob, it
was John.
So I had to pretty muchconvince him to say hey, you
know, I didn't say hey, by theway, just wait two more episodes
(41:03):
You'll be good.
I kind of say no, no, it'sgonna get good, don't worry
about it.
And he went back.
But so I'm assuming I've seenso many different reactions I
went to youtube and I typed inreactions and just people just
bawling and crying and and I getit, because it's such a
shocking thing yeah, it is, itis.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
I mean, even re-watching it, the episode, I
was like I can't believe that.
It still feels shocking seeingthe way it unfolds, because
first you have to listen, thenyou have Rob, and then Rob
almost makes it.
You know like you feel like, oh, there's still some hope, maybe
you know.
And then Kat and oh, maybeKat's bargaining wouldn't work
now, but yeah, we kept up thatquestion.
Speaker 3 (41:49):
And now, like the Red Wedding is a term that is used
to say, is it Red Wedding X?
Like we talked about that?
Speaker 2 (41:57):
for House of the Dragon.
Speaker 3 (41:59):
House of the Dragon yeah, and we do it for other
shows.
Oh, is this violence orshocking?
Is it like the Red Wedding,because it's so?
Do for other shows.
Oh, is this violence orshocking?
Is it?
Is it like the red wedding,because it's so yeah, you know
what I mean like there's noother scene in tv history that
comes close to it that's true.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
Um, yeah, that is true.
I feel like it's it'sapplicable across all of pop
culture.
Now, um, and I feel like, also,you also might have people
trying to replicate that kind ofhype and buzz being like we
want something as shocking asthe red wedding because that was
, you know, that changedeverything for, for, for game of
thrones, and it was like themost shocking still talked about
(42:34):
event in game of thrones.
People want that event in their, in their shows.
You know what I mean.
Like, no matter what it is.
So, um, I think that's behindthe scenes with, like, critters
used to have people trying toemulate what the red wedding
created.
Um, but I do want to mentionthe questions or like the
stories that I got from people.
Um, so one of my best friends,uh, she says I went to my mom's
(42:55):
room sobbing.
She says did someone die?
I told her everyone did.
And, uh, another one of my bestfriends, um, she says my
brother knew rob stark was afavorite of mine and would
jokingly say wait until the redwedding episode, you will love
it.
And she didn't say this in thethe message that she sent me,
(43:15):
but I remember her telling methat when, when he told her oh
wait, until his episode in thered wedding, you know.
And then they kept mentioning awedding and edmure's wedding and
I don't know.
She was like there's keptmentioning a wedding and
Edmure's wedding and I don'tknow.
She was like there's going tobe a wedding.
Like oh my God, like she was sohappy about it.
I remember her telling me thatin person and she was like I was
so naive to believe him.
And she says call me and likeleave me anonymous, slash H.
(43:38):
And then someone else said Iwas so mad that I stopped
watching.
And then, when they cast him inthe Cinderella movie, I
continued.
Speaker 3 (43:45):
Let me know Richard Madden.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
So that was a nice like.
At least that got you back toGame of Thrones.
And did we ever talk about ourreaction?
Like Tony, you were a bookreader first.
Like, did you ever mention howyou reacted when you read the?
Speaker 3 (43:57):
book.
Yeah, so I, like I said, I readafter I watched season.
I read the first book, Iwatched season one, then I read
all the books before season two.
So by the time I read it I waswaiting for it.
But I think I've mentioned thisa couple of times when reading
(44:23):
this chapter it's the only timeI've ever stood up.
Oh yeah, you said that Whilereading and I go what, wait,
what, what Like?
It's so insane Like I couldn'tbelieve what was going on, and
because there's so much like thered wedding, the purple wedding
, it's all like so closetogether.
Yeah, yeah yeah, in the thirdbook and and I, I was just right
(44:49):
then and there I go, okay, soeverybody's up for grabs,
obviously, like who's gonnasurvive, who's gonna like is
denarius gonna be killed?
Now, like it's how the dragons,you know like your mind starts
to wander, like who's who'sactually gonna be on the iron
throne, because there's no wayanybody can go and that's what
(45:10):
makes the book so good.
Speaker 2 (45:11):
That's completely true, and I wish that I had the
book experience first, but Ididn't, so I obviously had the
show one first and I don'treally remember much of how I
reacted.
Funnily enough, it's been.
I think I watched it like 11years ago, 2014.
I loved Rob a lot.
I love the Starks.
Obviously, I love Danny as well, but you know what I mean.
(45:31):
Like I did really have a softspot for the Starks and my
brother didn't tell me much butand he would just like nod.
Whenever I said like oh, I loveRob or I love the Starks, he'd
be like yeah, and like nod andsaid like yeah, yeah, I get it,
whatever.
And then I remember I wanted toGoogle something about Rob.
(45:52):
I forgot what it was and thenit said status deceased and I
just saw it and went what Excuseme?
Like he's going to die.
So I knew he was gonna die,unfortunately, because I spoiled
that something for myself.
And I knew that there wassomething called the red wedding
.
I just didn't know what it was.
And then I remember watching it,um, not long after, like
getting around to it and and, um, crying my eyes out.
(46:13):
And then it wasn't too long agoit was this year and a couple
of months ago when I finallyread it in the books, um, and I
thought it was really cool.
I thought that's happened, notreally cool in a good way, but,
like um, it was interesting tosee the differences and to
relive it in that way, becausethere are some differences and I
remember being shocking andbeing like on edge and like like
, at the same time, knowing,like, like, feeling that dread,
(46:35):
you know that it's coming soon,it's coming soon.
And then, like, it wasbittersweet when it's ended
because I was like, okay, atleast I don't have to go through
the trauma of that again, and Iknow that because you told me
that that the purple wedding wascoming very soon after.
Um, so that was my story withit.
And I do have a few uh likethings I want to mention from
the books as well, about George,and he said that was the
hardest thing to write.
(46:56):
I think we mentioned this onthe podcast before where, like,
he wrote the entire book andthen went back and wrote the red
wedding scene, just because itwas so hard for him to to write
that actual scene, and I didn'tknow this, but apparently he
wanted to be in the scene in theshow um, but he could, he
wasn't able to.
He wants to be one of thecasualties, uh of the red
wedding and play like a deadbody or something.
(47:17):
But he, he couldn't make it intime for the, for the filming,
um, but there was a scene thatthere there was a quote.
Sorry that I thought that youpulled up for George or that you
came across, but I don't.
I mentioned about George'sexperience killing them off in
the books.
He says the more I write abouta character, the more affection
I feel even for the worst ofthem, which doesn't mean I won't
kill them.
Whoever it was who said killyour darlings was was referring
(47:39):
to his favorite lines in thestory.
But it's just as true forcharacters.
The moment the reader begins tobelieve that the character is
protected by the magical cloakof authorial immunity, tension
goes out the window.
The Red Wedding wastremendously hard to write and
then he mentioned that he had togo back and write it again.
He said I love those characterstoo much, but I knew it had to
be done.
So it's almost like it wasn'tjust like out of nowhere.
(48:01):
He knew that this is what hekind of had to do.
So I I appreciate, like Irespect that, I understand that.
And he actually mentions didyou see this where he says that,
um, he thinks that the redwedding on screen is worse than
the book, especially becausetelisa's pregnant and she like
yeah, I mean visuals.
Speaker 3 (48:20):
if you see it, it's so gruesome.
Yeah, it's traumatizing.
I do have a quick note aboutthe director, david Nutter,
saying that he approached theepisode like a slow-burning
horror scene, so he chose tofilm most of it chronologically,
allowing actors to emotionallyspiral with their character.
(48:42):
The tension on set was sopalpable.
Michelle Farrelly's finalscream was so raw it reportedly
left the crew members in tears.
Richard Madden, who plays Rob,admitted he cried even after
they called cut.
Oana Chaplin, playing Talissa,was so shaken by the stabbing
scene that she cried whileplaying dead, prompting the
(49:05):
director to say dead peopledon't cry.
And the sequence was rehearsedand blocked like a battle plan,
but emotionally it was chaos.
So it's kind of like I canimagine you know Michelle
Farrelly and Richard Maddenbeing with that show for three
plus years, maybe four years,and all of a sudden you have to
(49:25):
make that scene and then that'sit, you're done.
Yeah, that could be incrediblyemotional.
I do want actually I want tohighlight Michelle Farrelly for
her performance.
I think it's nothing short oflegendary.
Her scream is so effing raw.
Yeah.
(49:45):
Filled with anguish.
I mean, it stops time.
It wasn't just losing her sonthat she was reacting to, it was
just everything that she'sfought to preserve.
She delivered that entire Iread that she delivered that
entire final scene in onecontinuous take.
So holding the camera with youknow, that intensity, that right
(50:07):
there like, made it soheartbreaking, an unforgettable
moment.
And it's a freaking shame thatshe wasn't even nominated for an
emmy right that that right,that scene alone, right there,
should have been worthy of anomination.
Speaker 2 (50:23):
Yeah, I can't believe that.
Speaker 3 (50:25):
Rob does it.
I mean, Richard Madden does agreat job and I think just the
touching of Talisa's stomach andgrabbing her head, and just
what can you say?
I mean, it's something that Idon't want to revisit again for
a while.
I'm doing it because we'redoing the podcast, right yeah,
but I don't want to be like awhile I'm doing it because we're
doing the podcast, right, but Idon't want to be like oh yeah,
(50:46):
you know what, let me watch thisepisode.
No, I don't want to do that.
Speaker 2 (50:50):
When you said something, when you said that
about Michelle Farrelly, I kindof want to I do agree, and I
want to make a note that when,like you really feel her loss,
as you said, and you really getthe sense that Kat doesn't have
anything to live for anymore,like, yes, um, she has Sansa,
she has Arya, she has Bran andRickon they're still alive and
(51:11):
well in the world, but shedoesn't know that you know when,
when, when that happens, andshe, she, she kind of accepts
her fate, but at the same time,she's like no, like, like
they're going to die.
Like you can just sense that Ihave, like you can read it on
her face.
She's like no, like they'regoing to die, like you can just
sense that I have, like you canread it on her face.
She's like I have nothing elseto live for.
That's it I'm.
They killed my son, they killedmy unborn grandchild, they
(51:32):
killed my husband.
They likely are going to killmy daughters very soon and my
sons.
So, and does she believe,actually, that Bran and Rickon
are dead?
Because I think that she might.
Yeah, so she is sure that Sansaand Arya are gonna die?
Sorry, what I said about hersons.
She, she thinks that they'redead.
I just forgot about that point.
So she just sees a woman thatyou just see, a woman that
(51:55):
doesn't have anything to livefor anymore.
She's like death is better forme than living in this world.
Like I think at that point,honestly, she could have just
easily taken her own life, as ifshe was like either it was her
taking her own life or her beingkilled, like in that instance,
like it's not funny, sorry, butlike that's that's that, like
that was just cat's mindset.
And I think that what georgewanted to communicate um through
(52:17):
the red wedding scene, waseffectively communicated because
of of um.
Because here's what he said yes, it was just to like not just
to do something different, butit was to to do that, you know,
to say what he said about hischaracters and to make sure that
people kind of know that noone's safe and, and you know,
(52:38):
not really give people what theyexpect in one way.
But he actually says that's oneof the reasons why he did it is
because he wanted people tofeel the weight of death.
He says it's a horrible chapterand it upsets people, it makes
people angry, it makes peoplesad.
People throw the book againstthe wall or into the fireplace.
When it was on TV, it had thesame effect on tens of thousands
, if not millions, of people.
To my mind, that's good.
(53:03):
We're talking about death here.
We all, in our real lives, haveexperienced death.
Your parents die, your bestfriend dies, sometimes in a
really tragic situation, yourchildren die or your wife or
husband dies.
It's terrible, it affects you,it makes you angry, it makes you
sad.
In our entertainment television,film, books over the centuries
as it's evolved, death is oftentreated very cavalierly.
Somebody is dead, we've got amystery and the detective has to
figure out who did it.
We never consider who thecorpse is or what his life was
(53:25):
like, what it's going to be likewithout him.
If I'm going to write a deathscene, particularly for major
characters, I want to make surethe reader feel it.
That's what the Red Wedding, Ithink, successfully accomplished
.
People felt that death and Ican't help but agree and I feel
like, yes, the shock value of itall might overshadow it, and
it's going to be argued whetherthat's a good thing or a bad
(53:46):
thing when it comes to George'strying to do the shock value of
it all, but ultimately it'sfeeling the weight of the death
of a huge character Not just one, but two and there is a very
tragic element to it and I thinkyou said something before we
started recording that you founda fact that was inspired by
something like in history.
(54:07):
George pulled inspiration fromsomething that's actually
happened in real life.
So I think that it did like.
George did accomplish what heset out to do, even though I
would make like the kind offootnote and be like maybe the
shock factor of it all does takeaway from it a little bit.
So I think that, yeah, heaccomplished his goal.
Speaker 3 (54:26):
A mission accomplished for him.
I mean, it's served as aturning point for the audience,
right?
So when it comes to, like, theconsequences of Rob's death and
it effectively removed HouseStark from any political
landscape, that's it.
There was no pursuit ofindependence.
And then you have, in the nextepisode, we realized it was all
(54:48):
under Tywin Lannister's ordersand he's sitting there, he's
basically being kingly, andthat's it.
And we're like, okay, wheredoes this story go?
Now?
The story, the stars are done.
Who's going gonna fight thelannisters?
Stannis, you know?
(55:08):
I mean like, yeah, daenerys,she's out there, she's trying to
.
You know, uh, free slaves andher dragons are still too young.
You know, are we gonna havethis lannister reign for how
much longer?
Speaker 2 (55:22):
we kind of feel like it's theirs, like they won the
game already, right, yeah.
But then I guess, if you'rewatching it for this first time
and you have that realization,it could just be like how are
they going to fall?
Do you know what?
I mean Like it has to be fromwithin.
Then maybe they could predictwhere it was it would be heading
.
But you Then maybe they couldpredict where it would be
heading.
Speaker 3 (55:42):
You know I was going to add the audio of Michelle
Farrelly's last scene but youknow, I don't want to do that,
it's too much.
No, don't, it's too much, Ican't.
For those you know.
Just if you want to rewatch it,go to YouTube.
You'll find I just can't hearher.
That yell is just freaking.
It penetrates your soul and Idon't even want to hear it
(56:03):
anymore.
Well, you did mention the RedWedding, the live event, the
real life events that I foundthose from Scottish history.
There's something called theBlack Dinner from 1440.
A 10-year-old Earl of Douglaswas invited to dine with King
James II only to have a blackbull's head, a symbol of death,
(56:24):
served before he and his brotherwere executed.
And then something called theGlencoe Massacre of 1692.
The Campbell clan killed theirMcDonald host after accepting
their hospitality Betrayal underthe sacred rules of guest
rights.
Sound familiar?
Speaker 2 (56:42):
I think we have pretty much covered everything
about the Red Wedding that wecould possibly find online or
could talk about ourselves, butthere's actually one tiny little
Easter egg or fun fact aboutthe episode.
I think Lots of people knowthis, but this would be really
cool to mention.
I guess it's a fun.
It's a tidbit from the show,which is that in the red wedding
(57:03):
scene there's actually amusician.
I don't really know whatinstrument he's playing, but uh,
the, the drummer from coldplay,is actually one of the
musicians on the red wedding,which is actually a really fun.
Speaker 3 (57:15):
Uh, cameo coldplay exists in george's world
coldplay and ed sheeran yes ohmy gosh, okay, so let's get to
our scene of the episode.
Are we gonna say, obviouslywe're saying the last scene?
yeah, we can't say anything elsethere's nothing else that can
top it.
(57:35):
Obviously and we've talkedabout it now uh, this episode is
rated 9.9 on IMDb and it's oneof the highest rated episodes of
television when it comes to howmany people reviewed it,
because there's some episodesthat have a 9.9 and 10 people
(57:55):
reviewed it, so that doesn'treally count.
We're talking about hundreds ofthousands of reviews and it
comes to a 9.9.
So what is your rating of thereigns of castamere?
Speaker 2 (58:07):
I'd give it a 9.5 really you can't give this a 10
if this is because look no, likeit's it's, I want to give it to
10, but at the same time, likehonestly, like it just feels a
bit no, you're right, like it'sjust because the danny makes it
(58:33):
a bit less focused, even thoughI love danny we agree on that.
Speaker 3 (58:37):
But what happens?
That build-up and and theending makes up for daenerys's
little you know story and samyeah, yeah yeah, so you can.
It makes up for that.
This is a 10, I think.
This is what the for me.
I think is that the third 10I'm giving out.
I think I gave out a 10 for thefirst episode, uh, and then
(58:59):
blackwater.
I gave a 10, and then this one,and that concludes our 70th
episode of the podcast.
Thanks for joining us as weunpack this brutal turning point
.
If you're still reeling, you'renot alone.
This is the moment thatshattered hearts and changed the
realm forever.
But make sure to follow, rateand share if you enjoyed the
(59:20):
episode.
To follow the podcast onInstagram, go to
dancingwith__dragons.
Join us next time as we reviewthe season finale of the third
season of Game of Thrones.
Meanwhile, I will attempt topick up the pieces and follow
the scattered stars into theaftermath of betrayal, because
in Westeros the dead may fall,but the North remembers.
Your Grace, you're great.
I feel I've been remiss in myduties.
I've given you meat and wineand music, but I haven't shown
(00:43):
you the hospitality you deserve.
My king has married and I owemy new queen a wedding gift.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Hello everyone, welcome to Dancing with Dragons,
your go-to podcast foreverything related to Game of
Thrones, house of the Dragon andthe rest of George RR Martin's
A Song of Ice and Fire universe.
I'm Inua and I'm here todaywith my co-host, tony, and in
this episode we're continuingour rewatch of Game of Thrones,
season 3.
And today, unfortunately, we'refinally here.
We're covering Episode 9, theReigns of Castamere, also known
(01:26):
as the Red Wedding episode.
We have a lot to get into andwe're all looking forward to it,
or are anxiously awaiting ourcoverage, I guess, of the Red
Wedding and remembering it all.
But firstly, we just want toshare some Westerosi news that
we have from George's world.
I guess that we have fromGeorge's world, I guess George R
(01:46):
R Martin will actually beattending New York Comic Con on
October 9th to introduce HBO'sGame of Thrones spinoff, a Night
of the Seven Kingdoms.
There will be a panel on theshow.
George will be there, joined byshowrunner Ira Parker and the
show's stars Peter Clafly, whoplays Dunk and Dexter, saul, and
Cilla Blaise Egg.
There's also a new photo ofGeorge on set of the show, or on
set of the show.
We'll be sure to share that onour Instagram at
dancingwithunderscoredragons, incase you haven't seen it, and
we just wanted to share thatquick little update, since now
(02:07):
we all have an estimate as towhen we'll be getting updates on
Eyes of the Seven Kingdoms.
We're kind of left in the darkafter the show was delayed.
It was supposed to havepremiered already, or it was
supposed to premiere this fall,but it was delayed to 2026.
But now we know get an update,which is going to be in October.
So look forward to then foranything new from the world of A
Song of Ice and Fire.
And in the meantime let's recapthe show and let's discuss the
(02:28):
Red Wedding.
Now the episode is known as theRed Wedding but, as I mentioned,
the episode is actually titledthe Reigns of Castamere.
The episode is named after thesong the Reigns of Castamere,
which is the unofficial anthemof House Lannister and Tywin
Lannister.
It's like their in-world themesong, kind of not the official
one on the soundtrack, of courseand the song actually refers to
(02:50):
the destruction of House Rainof Castamere after the rebellion
against House Lannister.
The song was heard in previousepisodes, notably Blackwater and
Dark Wings and Dark Words, andits backstory was explained in
the previous episode, secondSons.
We didn't note that in theprevious episode, so we weren't
like oh, they're talking aboutthe reigns of Castamere, this is
all.
This is the title of the nextepisode and this is what the Red
Wedding's all about, which iskind of funny.
(03:11):
The episode premiered on June2nd 2013 on HBO.
It was written by David Benioffand Davey Weiss and directed by
of the season, the last twoepisodes of season five and the
first two episodes of seasoneight.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
So he directed the best two episodes of season
eight.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Exactly Now.
We all know what's going tohappen in this episode, but
let's talk about the officialpremise of the episode.
So here, rob presents himselfto Walder Frey, edmure meets his
bride, jon faces a harsh test,bran discovers a new gift, dario
and Jorah debate and House Freyjoins with House Tully.
King's Landing and all of itsassociated characters and
(03:50):
storylines do not appear in thisepisode at all.
This makes it the first episodenot to even have a single scene
in King's Landing and it's thefirst episode of the series that
doesn't feature a singleLannister.
It's kind of like I needed abreak from them, honestly, but
they're there in spirit,unfortunately.
So I was kind of dreadinggetting to this episode.
(04:10):
I'll be honest, tony, like Ihave fun recording this podcast
with you, I have fun watchingthe show with you, like
rewatching it and discussing itwith you you know regularly but
I was dreading this moment, inall honesty, and my rewatch of
the episode honestly was toughand I'm wondering how you found
it.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Honestly, revisiting the Red Wedding still hits like
a gut punch and even though weknow it's coming, it doesn't
soften the blow.
If anything, it makes it worse.
You're watching the slow buildof tension and you're seeing
this fake warmth, the musiccreeping in and then it just
explodes into chaos.
And I mentioned to you beforethe recording that you know the
(04:49):
episode.
I think it's 52 minutes longand we don't get to the scene
until like minute 46.
So literally like the last fourfive minutes of the show is the
chaos of the violence, thegoing back and forth from the
dining hall to Aria, back andforth.
(05:11):
That was all five minutes, butit felt like an eternity for
those who are following for thefirst time.
It's going.
You don't know what's happening.
At first you're obviouslyyou're shocked, and then it's
going back and forth.
You don't know what's happeningwith Arya.
But you know what?
I have a plethora of notes togo through and I think you have
(05:32):
the same, because you're thenote queen.
We'll leave this for the lastbit of the episode because
there's so much to cover.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
So let's just start with Daenerys, because her
scenes were short and we'll justgo from there there and then
we'll give the listeners alittle slow build up too.
So just because it is asignificant event for her kind
of, but it's just we're sofocused on what's going to
happen that we just want to seeeverything related to the Red
Wedding.
So every time they switchedback to Essos and Dany's story,
(06:14):
I just felt a bit like okay,like maybe this could have
waited for one more episode.
But that's fine, it's fine.
I'm never going to complainabout seeing Dany.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
Yeah, I think that this, these scenes should have
(06:46):
been in the next episode.
I felt like this episode shouldhave been focused just on
Starks, just on Jon, bran,rickon, robb and Arya.
That's it.
No, sansa, she's at King'sLanding, but I think even going
to visit Sam for that one-minutescene felt, you know what.
Let's stick to the twins beyondthe wall with John and Bran, or
actually south of the wall.
They're not beyond anymore.
So, yeah, I think that Danyscenes didn't fit.
I mean, it's cool to see.
Obviously I don't mind seeingher, but I think, since the next
episode is a big one for her,uh, I think it would have worked
a little bit better.
Just add a few minutes to thatfinale and I think it would have
(07:09):
flowed better.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
That's the word I was trying to say um, because
everything that's happened todanny's storyline in this
episode as well, it kind ofhappens off screen.
We see like a bit of tensionbetween dario and jorah and
they're kind of like talkingabout yunkai and how to win I
guess not win over the city, butI guess how to conquer it and
defeat them and take over thecity.
For Dany and I honestly don'thave much to say.
(07:33):
They successfully do it, eventhough it was like a tough
challenge for them.
And Dany's leveling up, I guess, in her side quest of ruling
over Slaver's Bay and stuff.
So I don't like calling it aside quest, but it's the closest
thing I can do.
Her main goal is obviously toget to Westeros and she needed
to do these things, which isalso not really so.
I just felt like okay, fine,you know.
(07:54):
Like yeah, okay, not justwhatever, but she did it.
Okay, let's move on.
You know what I mean.
I love her, but like okay, shechecked the box yeah, it's.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
She is decisive.
It's a clever military move,but it's all handled off screen.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
I love Dani.
I just want to get herstoryline in this episode over
with, because the others werejust I don't know.
They overshadowed Dani in thisepisode.
Sorry, like Dani's action whenit happens off screen it's, it's
not waiting.
Come on, you know what I mean.
Like I can't.
I can't call it a danny episode, even if I tried so yeah,
that's why we're gonna move on.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
We're gonna go to sam and gilly really quick, not
even like a 60 minute.
60 minute, 60 second.
Uh, he impresses gilly with thebook learning of history.
How do you know this like?
So you read symbols and youknow what?
Are you a wizard?
And it took me back to when hesaid did he say I want to be a
wizard in season one?
Speaker 2 (08:48):
I think so.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Oh my god they're on the top of the wall.
He's on top of the wall, john,and something.
He goes.
I just I wanted to be a wizard,uh, so I I started laughing, uh
, but she, she's more impressedby seeing the wall.
Anyway, that, that was prettymuch it yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
I just wanted to to like say that.
I just googled that really fastand it's that uh quote is
accurate.
John was opening up to sam andsays I always wanted to be a
ranger and john and then samsays I always wants to be a
wizard it's really funny and Ithink you can see him kind of
like chuck it at that, notbecause Gilly's naive, but
because like, yeah, like that'skind of, I think.
(09:29):
I think he felt seen I don'tknow, I don't know over, like
over, analyze it, but like thatwas, that was cute, that was a
cute moment.
And something to note as wellis that Gilly makes a quick
remark.
She says something like oh, mydad always said that if anyone
that sees the wall instantlydies.
So I think that's justinteresting to know that the
Wildlings and Craster's people,everyone north of the wall, they
(09:52):
have their own weird suspicionsthat don't really make sense
about the wall and everythingsouth.
You know, the same way that theSoutherners, I guess, see the
north of the wall people acertain way and what they do and
everything above the wall islike they see it in a certain
way, like as a big danger.
So do the northern or seats ofthe southerners.
So, yeah, um, so let's move onfrom salmon glee, because that's
(10:12):
uh it's, and I think we shouldjust like move slightly like
north or south, I guess, or likearound that area and talk about
bran and john, because theirstorylines like almost in this
episode, which is insane.
I completely forgot about this.
So, talking about Bran first ofall, I just want to start there
.
I think it's easier.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
And you know, what's even crazier is that it happens
to Mor Stark.
So you had Arya so close to herbrother and her mother and,
yeah, I completely forgot aboutthat as well.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Yeah, I wrote it down Like this was the episode of
almost reunions Almost there wasalmost there, cause even like
John and and and Sam, they'renot too far apart.
If you think about itgeographically, they're in the
same area.
So you have John and Bran andRakan, so like him and his
siblings, or like cousins, Iguess, and then you have John
(11:06):
and sam and gilly as well, beingyou know like in the same
vicinity still.
So it's kind of insane.
I'll say one last thing.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
One last thing about sam, or anybody in this world,
is that you have to have anincredible memory because, like
for me, if I was in this worldand I would reading all these
books, I would forget everylittle detail.
And he's like, oh yeah, I knowbecause I read this book.
And how long did you read thatbook?
How do you still know everylittle?
You know what I mean.
Like yeah, you gotta have thatgood memory to like I would be
(11:34):
like, yeah, maybe it's in this,this castle, I don't know.
Like let me get my notes out.
Oh, oh, my battery's gone.
I can't check it.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Yeah, like I mean, I guess then you'd have like a
different profession.
That's why Sam's like a maester,right, because he has that mind
, he knows he has that likememory bank.
But yeah, moving on to Bran,who also, like has some mind
powers, I guess, revealed orutilized in this episode.
So before I get to that, we seethat Bran and his group, trojan
and Rakan and co, are in thearea of Westeros called the Gift
(12:07):
, and this was actuallysomething we discussed when we
talked about Dancing withDragons, when we talked about
House of the Dragon, I thinkwhich is like the Gift is the
stretch of land south of theWall which was gifted to the
Night's Watch thousands of yearsago by Bran and the Builder,
and they kind of use that landfor their needs, their needs,
you know, for like farming andeverything, and they don't
really use it anymore.
And they make a note of thatbecause, um, like they kind of
(12:29):
just don't really need that landfor for their farming and all
of that anymore.
But it's uh noteworthy, I thinkthey they do talk about it in,
uh in house the dragon whenthey're talking about king
jaharis and stuff.
I am I'm pretty sure that thatwe talked about that at some
point, and they talk about it aswell in this episode too,
saying that you know why don'tpeople just live in this area of
land, this stretch of land?
(12:49):
There's no war here and youknow you can farm on this land,
and that's when they give usthat quick Like this is the
history lesson, I guess, justbehind what they're talking
about.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
Well, I think that Bran says oh, oh, yeah, he does
and Rick was like oh yeah, oh,nan said they would use their
skulls for to drink blood.
And you see, osho like reallyyou believe that?
Speaker 2 (13:15):
like kind of take shelter and rest.
I guess there was like a storm,I think, and they were
basically resting and keepingsafe in an abandoned mill.
And then actually like pause.
I was going to go to John now,yeah, yeah yeah, like pause,
let's talk about John.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
I was going to say that they're like hand in hand,
so I think the scenes arehappening at the same time
Because, john, they'd want toattack the horse breeder for the
night's watch yes and then allof a sudden the horse breeder
escapes and he ends up at thatsame gift tower and that's how
(13:55):
they almost have that reunion.
Uh, but I do want to say thatthis, this episode is, it was a
test.
It was the final test for Johnto see if he was a true like
deserter of the night's watch.
Yeah, yeah.
And obviously he failed becausehe's, you know, he even despite
his feelings for Egret, heultimately chose to remain loyal
(14:16):
to the night's watch, you know,leading to the you know the
skirmish and him killing of umor.
Or now john gives, he slaps hissword against rocks, giving a
little subtle warning to thebreeder and to the horses.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
So the horses, all of a sudden they start getting
jumpy and kind of warned thebreeder to like get out of there
so I thought that was reallyclever it's kind of like
something that we're waiting foras well, without realizing that
we're waiting for it, with itbeing john's test of loyalty,
like we know that he can't keepup this act for for forever, you
know.
You know that it's bound to toreach this kind of point where
(14:58):
he has to kind of reveal himselfas being loyal to the water,
loyal to the wildlings,andgritte.
So when it actually happens andhe leaves them, we're like, oh,
here it is, like here's thekind of like the moment we've
been waiting for and we realizewhere that storyline is likely
heading.
And it's kind of, I guess it'skind of bittersweet, because you
get that satisfaction and thatrelief, I guess, of knowing that
(15:18):
Jon is still Jon and he's loyalto the Watch and he's that
character that we know.
But at the same time we're like, but Ygritte, like what's going
to happen?
And at this point we still seeTormund and the others as like
villains, right, so we're notrooting for them, we don't know,
like, where their storylinesare going to end up.
So it just feels a bit like.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
I don't know disbelief yeah she's like, she
can't, like, she actually isshocked that he is still, you
know, a member of the night'swatch, essentially like she
thought, oh, he's my man andhe's gonna, he's for me, he's
never gonna leave me and thenher, her face.
It is a betrayal like her faceand you know it's, and he's a
(16:03):
star to the bone.
He's too loyal, he cannot.
Yeah, he loves her, but he hasan oath that he cannot.
Well, he broke the oath anyway,but you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Yeah, I know, I know and I think that like that anger
that we see in her is the factthat she's angry at his betrayal
.
But also, I can you can see itin her face that she's kind of
angry at herself because she waswarned against him.
You know, like they kepttelling her in the show like
don't trust him, he's not goingto be loyal to us and she's the
only one that believed in himand you could kind of see that
(16:34):
she feels like she betrayed herown people.
But when john leaves them it'skind of it's it's heartbreaking
to see, even though it's likekind of really fast.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
You can see it's all on rose leslie's face, she's an
amazing actress she was seducedby the curls, by the eyes come
on.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
I think that.
I don't think it's just that.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Come on, give her some credits, uh yeah, is there
any guy who looks like that inin the?
Any wildling that looks likejohn?
Speaker 2 (17:01):
sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry.
Oh, yeah, true, when you saywildling, fine, when you said
first you said any guy in theworld, he's saying any guy in
the world with john's curls.
And then you were giving like,giving me a like, I don't know,
like a lecture, for is it sayingthat rob looked glorious or
something majestic once, andyou're saying no one looks like
it's harrington in the entireworld.
Come on, I'm joking now.
Um, uh, but yeah, uh, they bothlook like amazing, but anyways.
(17:26):
So, yeah, I'm glad to see thatfrom from john, and we actually
also.
We didn't talk about it before,but him killing oral is kind of
like a significant moment forhim as well, because, yes, he's
protecting himself, but at thesame time, we didn't see john
really kill anyone other thanthan corin, right and with core,
and it was kind of like he wasdoing his duty.
Here it's self-defense, and Ithink that definitely leaves an
(17:48):
impact, because it's not just,you know, fulfilling his duty
and doing kind of the rightthing.
Killing Corrin was the rightthing he was told to do.
That, you know, here it's kindof like something that he's
doing of his own free will andhe, like we can see him during
the battle grappling with isthis what I think to do or not?
And then he eventually like,just like you can see it in his
eyes, and then he just kills himand knows that this is this.
(18:10):
Is that, I think?
Because he's protecting himselflike come on and I think saving
the watch he I don't thinkthere's any grappling.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
He, when he shoves that sword into him, he gives
him like yeah, you were right.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Like oh, he did say that.
He did say that he was like you, were always right about me and
he, he looked satisfied,looking.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
I don't think I.
I think killing other peopleyeah, maybe torment would would
have been, uh, he would havethought twice, but not against
this guy.
He was ready to to kill thisguy.
Um, this, this also he's hadenough yeah, he's had enough.
You think about this episode,we always think about, you know
the last five minutes, but thisis a massive turning point in
(18:52):
brand's arc.
Like yeah, I was gonna say thatas well now he has this
incredible, like mystical powerthat he can wield and like warg
into humans, because that'snever been done before.
I kind of got a flashback tonot a flashback when I saw him
working too I guess you meanlike you're remembering what
happens to hodor rather than hispowers.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Yeah okay, I thought you meant about the, the working
ability this is.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
It's also sad.
You know what?
Speaker 2 (19:21):
this is the last time he'll see Rickon yeah, yeah,
that's what I'm gonna say aswell, like, like it's, it's.
You don't realize how sad thisepisode really really is,
because you have the John andYgritte's like uh, separation,
and you have the the Brian andRickon separation you have, and
then you have the almost threereunions with John and Brian and
(19:42):
and Rickon as well, and thealmost reunion at the at the red
wedding, and then you have thealmost reunions with Jon and
Bran and Rurik Khan as well, andthe almost reunion at the Red
Wedding, and then you have theRed Wedding.
So it's like an episode ofreunions and separations.
You know it's so sad it's soit's like that's bad, it's just
it's a heartbreaking episode, asyou said.
Like back to Bran, because thisis where their stories kind of
merge.
(20:02):
Outside that tower we see theman that Jon saved kind of like
run power flex, like no, hewasn't running, he was on like a
horse thing right, a horsething.
He was on like some sort ofanimal and he was safe.
Some horse thing.
Some horse thing.
Every horse is now some horsething.
(20:22):
But then, yeah, bran kind ofenters the mind of Summer and
works into him to save Jon,which is also like a really good
moment, and I wish we saw eventhough we do, as you said,
mention that we see the workinginto Hodor in season six.
I don't think that we seeenough of the working, because
it is present in the books,isn't it?
It's so, it's.
(20:44):
It's not just like some rareevent that occurs, it's, it's a
part of the book.
So yeah and remember this is arare moment all the starks are
able to do it.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
I was thinking about when john's fighting.
Did he not notice that thoseare two dire wolves?
Oh my god, you're right waitlike all of a sudden, like he
hasn't seen summer and shaggywolf since he left to the wall
and they weren't as big,obviously, because you know how
huge they are, but he could havebeen like, wait a minute, what?
(21:16):
What are these dire wolves justshowing up all of a sudden?
Speaker 2 (21:19):
I mean, yeah, like that.
I think that's the onlyexplanation that we can, john
not noticing them.
It's just probably because hewas fighting for his life,
otherwise we can consider it aplot hole.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Yeah, and it's something that we, as fans,
we're so desperate for thatStark reunion, right, and we're
like, okay, this is it, he's outthere.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
And then we don't get a Stark reunion until season
six when Sansa shows up at themaids watch or castle black I
was looking into this episodeand I actually found like a
piece of information that I kindof forgot about, like the canon
, the world of game of thrones,it's when you mentioned it as
well, when they mentioned, um,old nan, hodor was a bit sad
(21:59):
about that.
They were like oh, the reasonwhy, like they, they made hodor
like a bit obsessed, and duringthe scene, the mentioning of old
nan is because in the canonhodor is old nan's great
grandson and I completely forgotthat, I didn't know, and
something else that I kind ofthought was like a like just
another note about this scene,like the last notes I want to
say, is that when bran likebasically says, like you know,
(22:20):
we have to separate, me andrecon have to separate, I think
that it's like when we actuallysee Bran maturing, because he
obviously takes that decision,because he knows that as the
last two heirs of Winterfell, itmight be safer for them if
they're not together.
And sure, it probably wasn'tthe wisest decision because of
where Rikon ends up and he endsup with the Boltons and
everything later on.
But at the end of the day, Ithink that it came from a place
(22:42):
of maturity for Bran where herealizes this because he's not
just a kid anymore.
You know what I mean.
He's not just this kid that'sbeing like, oh, me and my
brother have to stay together.
He actually sees the dangers ofthe world during this moment
and is like, no, it probablyisn't our best interest for us
not to be in the same place atthe same time, because we are
two valuable targets and we'reboth heirs to Winterfell, and I
(23:06):
don't know if I'm going tosurvive this because especially
he's thinking this because ofhis own powers and it might be
safest to keep Rickon in adistant space.
So I just want to note thatthis is probably a significant
another why, another reason whyit's a significant moment for
Bran.
But yeah, so let's move on toanother dear, dear Stark that we
have in this episode, andthat's Arya.
Arya has a brief scene in thebeginning, like kind of separate
(23:28):
from everybody else, where sheand the Hound are obviously on
their way to the Twins.
He's going to ransom her off toher mom and her brother and
they make it just outside theTwins like they're in the
Riverlands area and like theHound, as he does, gets into
like a thing with a guy, likethey're just arguing and he was
about to kill him.
And then Arya says I wrote itdown because I love this scene.
(23:51):
This was like a small moment,but I loved it.
She says don't kill him.
You're so dangerous, arya,saying scary things to little
girls, killing little boys andold people.
A real hard man you are.
And I just love that scenebecause no one calls out the
hound like that ever, you know,and it's like she's belittling
him, being like yeah, you're,you're, you're, you think you're
(24:11):
, you're scary.
Just because you, you targetlike what?
Little girls and little boysand old people like those are
easy targets.
You're not a strong, hard man,scary warrior.
If your targets are childrenand old people, you're a loser,
you know.
And I love that because no onesays that to the house.
Everyone always looks at himwith fear and with loathing, you
(24:32):
know, and no one really likeshim.
And she's just like you think.
You think you're so tough.
If you're so tough, why areyour targets like people that
are so helpless?
Prove yourself.
And I love that because onlyArya would say that.
Only Arya would do that.
And even when he says somethinglike he defends himself, like,
even though it wasn't in a realgood way, she was like you're
wrong, I know a real killer,you're nothing, she's like that.
(24:54):
She he'd kill you with hisfinger and uh, I just loved it
so much it was.
It was, it was a cool scene.
And then I don't know we'regoing to talk about what's.
I'm going to leave that untilthe end of the episode.
I hope I remember, because thenI was, I was going to go
completely different, or I'lljust say it now because I don't
gonna forget.
Do you think if the hound ummade it the day before before,
(25:15):
like, and gave Arya up to them,would they have killed Arya as
well?
Speaker 3 (25:20):
I don't think Arya would have been, because I
didn't see any children there atthe wedding.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
But that's the thing they killed his unborn baby.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
Yeah, they wouldn't have had any issue killing her,
because if they're murdering apregnant woman, yeah, exactly.
Yeah, so she would have beenkilled.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Okay, before we say this, pause on the what ifs,
listen and talk about more whenthe wedding actually happens.
Because I don't want to saysomething about aria as well,
because we get two scenes ofthem before the red wedding, the
second time we see theminteract for the red wedding.
Um, the hound and aria.
Um, we see aria.
She looks hopeful.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
I read it as her being hopeful when she sees the
twins what I see in her eyes, Isee is hope, feeling that okay,
I'm so close I've been a part offrom my family for I guess I
don't know what's the timelinehere at least a year and a plus,
right yeah, yeah so I I thinkher looking to the twins and
(26:18):
seeing that there's my family,I'm safe.
Finally, when you can act withyour eyes, you are a very good
actor.
Yeah.
You know when people can justtell you what they're feeling,
which is the look on their faceand how their eyes are moving,
that's just a sign of a greatactor and she's a very good
actor, actress, actor.
The next time we see her, she'sthey're going, they're trying
(26:45):
to get into the twins andbasically they lock down because
we have the bedding ceremony,right, actually, let's go to
when they arrive at the twins.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
That's actually the first episode.
Even before that, there's ascene between Rob and Kat before
they arrive.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
There's the first first scene, this first scene
with Walder Frey, where Rob isapologizing.
First of all, I wouldn't haveapologized in front of everybody
.
I would have said I need tospeak with your daughters in
private and apologize Because Idon't know.
I felt like it made him look alittle weak to apologize in
front of everybody.
(27:23):
The reason why I say that isbecause Walder Frey is so snarky
and so curmudgeon.
What he says about Talisa issomething that could have had
his tongue removed.
Yeah.
Any other king and you know, youcan see.
You know what I'm talking about, right.
Like oh, I would have broken50-0s for you and your body and
(27:44):
this.
And it's just like right, thenand there, rob needed to do
something.
He can't have this guy talk toyou or your queen like that, so
that really pissed me off.
That's another moment of like,rob, you didn't do anything Like
is it really that important?
And I go back to why didn't youjust go to Renly?
Why didn't you just go to Renly?
Why didn't you just go toStannis?
(28:05):
Here, I don't care.
I don't want to be the king ofthe north.
Let's help each other out.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Stannis was the real, real missed opportunity.
I think for Rob that washorrible, and Edmure is the big
mistake in all this as well,because if it wasn't for him, it
would have been all okay.
Stannis probably would havebeen on the throne.
As we said Again, if you wantto know the context behind that,
you have to go all the way backto our previous episodes and be
(28:30):
up to date on our podcast,especially the Battle of
Blackwater episode.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
But anyways, I'm sorry, but then you have Walder
introducing like 10 of hisdaughters and granddaughters,
and not their fault, they're notyou, you know.
Quote unquote game of thrones,beautiful, like marjorie and
cersei and all those daenerys,it's not.
You know what I mean.
So it's kind of like they allhave weird names wilda, juanina
(28:57):
or something some kind of weird.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
And uh, and mirs was like his face is so upset oh, I
know, I know, but like, then heends up getting like, he ends up
marrying one of the prettiestgirls there, right, like I
forgot and I think that'stotally a dig on rob he he oh,
yeah, true, true he purposelydid not have her there in the
(29:24):
beginning, so the one that heunveiled her he'd be like see
what you missed.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
You could have this.
I'm going to be all over theplace, but there's a moment
where Catlin is talking to theBlackfish and he's like this man
complained all through theKing's Road, he was moping and
all that, and all of a suddenhe's there having having a great
time, because now he has abeautiful bride.
Everything is forgiven.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Yeah, I want to wait.
I want to before I forget.
I want to make a note aboutwhat you said about Rob's
apology.
Like I completely understandwhat you're coming from, where
you're coming from and beinglike it is weak.
I think I just want to say thatfor rob I think in his mind he
was probably like apologizing infront of everybody is the noble
thing to do, because he neverpublicly like acknowledged what
(30:12):
he did.
You know what I mean so I thinkthat this is him thinking I'm
gonna say that it was in thename of love and then this is
going to absolve me becauseeverybody will understand the
power of the love and and Iapologized, so it's going to
resonate and everybody's goingto.
You know, I don't think he seesthis weakness and I I don't
necessarily see it as weakness,but I do think that he should
(30:32):
have done something.
When Walder Frey, like I,insulted his wife and Catherine
stopped him because he was goingto say something he was going
to he was he moved before that?
Speaker 3 (30:47):
I will say this I kind of understood where he was
coming from, because it was likea public acknowledgement and
being like it was a very yes, Idon't know apology and it was
very nice and I think it madethem feel a little better, but I
just think it could have beendone in private we mentioned
this a couple of episodes agohis whole thing.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Suddenly to like get the, to get casterly rock to
show that taiwan is, is notinvincible.
That's such a dumb side questlike that, come on like.
That's not what you're fightingfor.
That's why rob lost his, hisarmy, because that's not what
they're fighting like.
Why, just to show a force, justto show that you're strong and
he's weak, that's, that's notserving your best interest.
(31:20):
That's not fighting for yourfamily, that's not fighting for
your land, that's just trying toto, I don't know, boost, boost
your own ego and destroy anotherman's ego.
That has no real like um gainfor you.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (31:33):
Like that, that's just a bad side quest and also
caitlin saying, uh, she doestell him, look, if we get caught
here, we're between the sea andand their army will be dead,
which should have been a redflag.
Let's not do it.
Let's just focus on what weneed to do.
Let's try to salvage anysupport that we lost or try to
(31:56):
regain the support, but no,let's do like you said the side
quest that's going to make us gothrough this guy that we
spurned or, you know, offendedby breaking the oath.
You're rewatching this for the.
I don't know how many times,but if you're watching it for
the first time, you're like well, maybe they're going to get
away with it.
(32:16):
I think you know, for now hehad to endure some insults to
his queen, but when you get tothe wedding part, people are
having fun, they're chattingthey're drinking You're like,
okay, well, maybe, but then inthe pit of your stomach you're
like well, this is a penultimateepisode.
You know what happens in seasonone Ned dies.
(32:38):
Season two is Blackwater andsomething has to happen, right,
because this is a tradition.
Now the first game of thronesand people were waiting for
something, because the wargingwith that that's not a big
enough twist for us to be like,oh yeah, that's a great episode.
Something has to, yeah.
And I guess when one you knowyou have you, this music starts
(33:04):
playing and then you realizesomething's wrong because you
see Catlin's face you heard thestory about the song from the
previous episode you feel like,ok, well, there's no Lannisters
here, but we're listening totheir quote theme song or their
(33:25):
revenge song.
We put the audio up in thebeginning of the episode of you
know, they close the doors, theyhave the bedding ceremony,
which, funny enough, we talkedabout the bedding ceremony in
the last episode because Tyrionand Sansa was married and they
kind of show it here.
And here's what I saw.
(33:46):
I saw the bride frightenedabout what was happening and I
saw the groom excited becauseall these women are touching him
.
You know what I mean.
So you have the bride beingfondled by all these drunk men.
And then you have the guy.
So it's kind of a weirdtradition.
Even to us it's like what theheck is going on here?
(34:07):
Yeah you know to, yeah, youknow what.
That's just the way it is.
It's true, like who cares?
right, even ramsay bolton's like, oh, you should have, or you
had to endure that in yourwedding, and then she says
something that ned forbade itright like he didn't want to
have to break somebody's jaw onhis wedding night, which, yeah,
(34:27):
that was just for the show, andI think in the book it does
mention that they did have abedding ceremony, and I think
that's just for the show arc,right, or?
Speaker 2 (34:37):
did.
Yeah, I just want to mentiontony.
You said, uh, ramsay boltonit's not Ramsey.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
Oh sorry um Rose Bolton.
Yeah, because.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
I was a bit like like we haven't seen it.
We haven't really like, well,we have seen it but we haven't
really like.
You know it's not.
Um, yeah, I think it doeshappen in the book.
I remember something like thatbeing mentioned.
For sure, when I listen to theaudiobook for for a storm of
sorts, um, and yeah, when youmentioned that, like you're
thinking, oh, it's like it mightget away, when you're wondering
(35:08):
, I, I don't know because I,we're gonna get to this, but I
was always wondering how peoplereacted to the red wedding for
the first time and, um, that'swhat we're gonna get to
eventually, other people'sreactions, but it doesn't seem
like that's where the show is,like that's what's Obviously,
who would expect the slaughter,you know, as you said, like they
closed the doors.
It seems normal, nothing'sgoing wrong.
(35:30):
Even at the beginning of thispodcast episode, when you played
the scene, like the music isnot sad, like before it
transitions into like the eeriemusic, you know, like the Reigns
of Castamere and stuff, it wasvery like fine, it was normal.
It sounds like jolly.
Like who would expect that redepisode, that the red?
Speaker 3 (35:49):
wedding would start with that music unless you're
very, very clever and you'relike wait a minute.
Cersei's talked about thereigns of castamere and the
origins and now I just saw onthe caption and said reigns of
castamere, music.
What's gonna happen?
Imagine imagine like if youcould put two into it, but I
don't think people are doingthat, and it's just a funny
(36:11):
thing that this.
What makes for me like okay,now the violence starts, and
then you get something thatprobably never was shown on tv
is a pregnant woman beingstabbed repeatedly.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Yeah, in the belly.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
In the belly, like straight on the belly.
What makes the violence soeffective and disturbing is how
suddenly it unfolds.
So one moment there's music and, like I said, there's toast,
and then next, boom, pregnantTalista is being stabbed and Rob
and Catn are surrounded bysmiling killers.
(36:47):
So it's not like stylizedviolence, it's raw, it's ugly,
it's freaking, like terrifying,you don't know what to do.
The camera doesn't flinch, isright there.
It doesn't glamorize.
It, instead of like you'retrapped and it within the
audience, like you, you'rehelpless because you can't
believe that this is happeningto your favorite characters, the
(37:07):
Starks.
Like how much can this familyendure?
How much pain and suffering?
Really?
Why do you, george, why do youhate this family so much?
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Like we thought these were the heroes.
Yeah, I think you have it Likea quote from George where he
talks about why he had to do itlike he.
Like he kind of killed thembecause, not because he loved
them, but because it's somethingthat he had to do despite the
fact that he loved them so much.
Do you have that quote from himwhen he talked?
Speaker 3 (37:35):
about?
Yeah, I think he did a uminterview with entertainment
weekly in 2013 and they askedhim how early in the process of
writing the book series did youknow you were going to kill off
Robin Catlin?
He replied, I quote I knew italmost from the beginning, not
the first day, but very soon.
I've said in many interviewsthat I like fiction to be
(37:56):
unpredictable.
I like there to be considerablesuspense.
I killed Ned in the first bookand it shocked a lot of people.
I killed Ned because everybodythinks he's the hero, but then
he'll somehow get out of it.
The next predictable thing isto think his eldest son is going
to rise up and avenge hisfather, and everybody's going to
expect that.
(38:16):
So immediately quote killingRob became the next thing I had
to do.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
I get him.
But hearing him phrase it inthat way is kind of like
bringing back war flashbacks, ofbeing like I'm gonna do this to
subvert expectations from danand dave.
You know, when they when theysaid that about season eight.
But yeah, like it works withwith george, because it's doing
something different, it's takingin like something.
I mean it's actually planningsomething and reworking it.
(38:47):
You know, it's not just lettinggo of an entire character arc
overnight, so it's different.
But it did remind me,unfortunately, of the trauma of
Dan and Dave's quote being likewe're going to have Danny do
this to subvert expectations atthe last minute because she
wouldn't see the thing cominglike oh anyways, um, but I have
(39:07):
a no, sorry, I have anotherquote from george that says when
the book came out storm ofswords, I got a tremendous
reaction to it.
Speaker 3 (39:15):
I got angry letters that said I will never read your
work again and the tv showversion is 13 years later and I
knew, having been through itonce, we would get the similar
big reaction.
And he actually came out inconan, uh, I think a few months
after, uh, the the show airedand conan showed him a little
(39:36):
montage of people yeah, yeahpeople reacting to the red
wedding and george was giddy hegoes.
Well, those people who wererecording are the people who
read the book, so they wanted tosee the reaction and that's how
kind of like before thatreactions to anything was not a
thing like that.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
That was kind of like the first thing of people like
like.
Speaker 3 (39:56):
I've showed you the reaction.
When I recorded my son, I sentyou the seven minute video and
he's just kind of like.
If you see him he's like indisbelief, he goes what?
and he felt so betrayed.
To his credit, he kept watchingimmediately like he wanted to
watch the next episode.
But we did put out a quicklittle prompt to ask people
(40:19):
their reactions or they had anyquestions, and I did get three
people who basically said thesame thing.
So let me just say so I havejohnboyltgmoviesrus underscore
and then travelenthusiast withsimilar stories, saying that I
(40:41):
was traumatized and I quit theshow but eventually went back to
it, which is something that alot of people did after Jon
Snow's death, which was my son.
My son had the same reaction.
He's like I'm done with theshow because he after Rob, it
was John.
So I had to pretty muchconvince him to say hey, you
know, I didn't say hey, by theway, just wait two more episodes
(41:03):
You'll be good.
I kind of say no, no, it'sgonna get good, don't worry
about it.
And he went back.
But so I'm assuming I've seenso many different reactions I
went to youtube and I typed inreactions and just people just
bawling and crying and and I getit, because it's such a
shocking thing yeah, it is, itis.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
I mean, even re-watching it, the episode, I
was like I can't believe that.
It still feels shocking seeingthe way it unfolds, because
first you have to listen, thenyou have Rob, and then Rob
almost makes it.
You know like you feel like, oh, there's still some hope, maybe
you know.
And then Kat and oh, maybeKat's bargaining wouldn't work
now, but yeah, we kept up thatquestion.
Speaker 3 (41:49):
And now, like the Red Wedding is a term that is used
to say, is it Red Wedding X?
Like we talked about that?
Speaker 2 (41:57):
for House of the Dragon.
Speaker 3 (41:59):
House of the Dragon yeah, and we do it for other
shows.
Oh, is this violence orshocking?
Is it like the Red Wedding,because it's so?
Do for other shows.
Oh, is this violence orshocking?
Is it?
Is it like the red wedding,because it's so yeah, you know
what I mean like there's noother scene in tv history that
comes close to it that's true.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
Um, yeah, that is true.
I feel like it's it'sapplicable across all of pop
culture.
Now, um, and I feel like, also,you also might have people
trying to replicate that kind ofhype and buzz being like we
want something as shocking asthe red wedding because that was
, you know, that changedeverything for, for, for game of
thrones, and it was like themost shocking still talked about
(42:34):
event in game of thrones.
People want that event in their, in their shows.
You know what I mean.
Like, no matter what it is.
So, um, I think that's behindthe scenes with, like, critters
used to have people trying toemulate what the red wedding
created.
Um, but I do want to mentionthe questions or like the
stories that I got from people.
Um, so one of my best friends,uh, she says I went to my mom's
(42:55):
room sobbing.
She says did someone die?
I told her everyone did.
And, uh, another one of my bestfriends, um, she says my
brother knew rob stark was afavorite of mine and would
jokingly say wait until the redwedding episode, you will love
it.
And she didn't say this in thethe message that she sent me,
(43:15):
but I remember her telling methat when, when he told her oh
wait, until his episode in thered wedding, you know.
And then they kept mentioning awedding and edmure's wedding and
I don't know.
She was like there's keptmentioning a wedding and
Edmure's wedding and I don'tknow.
She was like there's going tobe a wedding.
Like oh my God, like she was sohappy about it.
I remember her telling me thatin person and she was like I was
so naive to believe him.
And she says call me and likeleave me anonymous, slash H.
(43:38):
And then someone else said Iwas so mad that I stopped
watching.
And then, when they cast him inthe Cinderella movie, I
continued.
Speaker 3 (43:45):
Let me know Richard Madden.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
So that was a nice like.
At least that got you back toGame of Thrones.
And did we ever talk about ourreaction?
Like Tony, you were a bookreader first.
Like, did you ever mention howyou reacted when you read the?
Speaker 3 (43:57):
book.
Yeah, so I, like I said, I readafter I watched season.
I read the first book, Iwatched season one, then I read
all the books before season two.
So by the time I read it I waswaiting for it.
But I think I've mentioned thisa couple of times when reading
(44:23):
this chapter it's the only timeI've ever stood up.
Oh yeah, you said that Whilereading and I go what, wait,
what, what Like?
It's so insane Like I couldn'tbelieve what was going on, and
because there's so much like thered wedding, the purple wedding
, it's all like so closetogether.
Yeah, yeah yeah, in the thirdbook and and I, I was just right
(44:49):
then and there I go, okay, soeverybody's up for grabs,
obviously, like who's gonnasurvive, who's gonna like is
denarius gonna be killed?
Now, like it's how the dragons,you know like your mind starts
to wander, like who's who'sactually gonna be on the iron
throne, because there's no wayanybody can go and that's what
(45:10):
makes the book so good.
Speaker 2 (45:11):
That's completely true, and I wish that I had the
book experience first, but Ididn't, so I obviously had the
show one first and I don'treally remember much of how I
reacted.
Funnily enough, it's been.
I think I watched it like 11years ago, 2014.
I loved Rob a lot.
I love the Starks.
Obviously, I love Danny as well, but you know what I mean.
(45:31):
Like I did really have a softspot for the Starks and my
brother didn't tell me much butand he would just like nod.
Whenever I said like oh, I loveRob or I love the Starks, he'd
be like yeah, and like nod andsaid like yeah, yeah, I get it,
whatever.
And then I remember I wanted toGoogle something about Rob.
(45:52):
I forgot what it was and thenit said status deceased and I
just saw it and went what Excuseme?
Like he's going to die.
So I knew he was gonna die,unfortunately, because I spoiled
that something for myself.
And I knew that there wassomething called the red wedding
.
I just didn't know what it was.
And then I remember watching it,um, not long after, like
getting around to it and and, um, crying my eyes out.
(46:13):
And then it wasn't too long agoit was this year and a couple
of months ago when I finallyread it in the books, um, and I
thought it was really cool.
I thought that's happened, notreally cool in a good way, but,
like um, it was interesting tosee the differences and to
relive it in that way, becausethere are some differences and I
remember being shocking andbeing like on edge and like like
, at the same time, knowing,like, like, feeling that dread,
(46:35):
you know that it's coming soon,it's coming soon.
And then, like, it wasbittersweet when it's ended
because I was like, okay, atleast I don't have to go through
the trauma of that again, and Iknow that because you told me
that that the purple wedding wascoming very soon after.
Um, so that was my story withit.
And I do have a few uh likethings I want to mention from
the books as well, about George,and he said that was the
hardest thing to write.
(46:56):
I think we mentioned this onthe podcast before where, like,
he wrote the entire book andthen went back and wrote the red
wedding scene, just because itwas so hard for him to to write
that actual scene, and I didn'tknow this, but apparently he
wanted to be in the scene in theshow um, but he could, he
wasn't able to.
He wants to be one of thecasualties, uh of the red
wedding and play like a deadbody or something.
(47:17):
But he, he couldn't make it intime for the, for the filming,
um, but there was a scene thatthere there was a quote.
Sorry that I thought that youpulled up for George or that you
came across, but I don't.
I mentioned about George'sexperience killing them off in
the books.
He says the more I write abouta character, the more affection
I feel even for the worst ofthem, which doesn't mean I won't
kill them.
Whoever it was who said killyour darlings was was referring
(47:39):
to his favorite lines in thestory.
But it's just as true forcharacters.
The moment the reader begins tobelieve that the character is
protected by the magical cloakof authorial immunity, tension
goes out the window.
The Red Wedding wastremendously hard to write and
then he mentioned that he had togo back and write it again.
He said I love those characterstoo much, but I knew it had to
be done.
So it's almost like it wasn'tjust like out of nowhere.
(48:01):
He knew that this is what hekind of had to do.
So I I appreciate, like Irespect that, I understand that.
And he actually mentions didyou see this where he says that,
um, he thinks that the redwedding on screen is worse than
the book, especially becausetelisa's pregnant and she like
yeah, I mean visuals.
Speaker 3 (48:20):
if you see it, it's so gruesome.
Yeah, it's traumatizing.
I do have a quick note aboutthe director, david Nutter,
saying that he approached theepisode like a slow-burning
horror scene, so he chose tofilm most of it chronologically,
allowing actors to emotionallyspiral with their character.
(48:42):
The tension on set was sopalpable.
Michelle Farrelly's finalscream was so raw it reportedly
left the crew members in tears.
Richard Madden, who plays Rob,admitted he cried even after
they called cut.
Oana Chaplin, playing Talissa,was so shaken by the stabbing
scene that she cried whileplaying dead, prompting the
(49:05):
director to say dead peopledon't cry.
And the sequence was rehearsedand blocked like a battle plan,
but emotionally it was chaos.
So it's kind of like I canimagine you know Michelle
Farrelly and Richard Maddenbeing with that show for three
plus years, maybe four years,and all of a sudden you have to
(49:25):
make that scene and then that'sit, you're done.
Yeah, that could be incrediblyemotional.
I do want actually I want tohighlight Michelle Farrelly for
her performance.
I think it's nothing short oflegendary.
Her scream is so effing raw.
Yeah.
(49:45):
Filled with anguish.
I mean, it stops time.
It wasn't just losing her sonthat she was reacting to, it was
just everything that she'sfought to preserve.
She delivered that entire Iread that she delivered that
entire final scene in onecontinuous take.
So holding the camera with youknow, that intensity, that right
(50:07):
there like, made it soheartbreaking, an unforgettable
moment.
And it's a freaking shame thatshe wasn't even nominated for an
emmy right that that right,that scene alone, right there,
should have been worthy of anomination.
Speaker 2 (50:23):
Yeah, I can't believe that.
Speaker 3 (50:25):
Rob does it.
I mean, Richard Madden does agreat job and I think just the
touching of Talisa's stomach andgrabbing her head, and just
what can you say?
I mean, it's something that Idon't want to revisit again for
a while.
I'm doing it because we'redoing the podcast, right yeah,
but I don't want to be like awhile I'm doing it because we're
doing the podcast, right, but Idon't want to be like oh yeah,
(50:46):
you know what, let me watch thisepisode.
No, I don't want to do that.
Speaker 2 (50:50):
When you said something, when you said that
about Michelle Farrelly, I kindof want to I do agree, and I
want to make a note that when,like you really feel her loss,
as you said, and you really getthe sense that Kat doesn't have
anything to live for anymore,like, yes, um, she has Sansa,
she has Arya, she has Bran andRickon they're still alive and
(51:11):
well in the world, but shedoesn't know that you know when,
when, when that happens, andshe, she, she kind of accepts
her fate, but at the same time,she's like no, like, like
they're going to die.
Like you can just sense that Ihave, like you can read it on
her face.
She's like no, like they'regoing to die, like you can just
sense that I have, like you canread it on her face.
She's like I have nothing elseto live for.
That's it I'm.
They killed my son, they killedmy unborn grandchild, they
(51:32):
killed my husband.
They likely are going to killmy daughters very soon and my
sons.
So, and does she believe,actually, that Bran and Rickon
are dead?
Because I think that she might.
Yeah, so she is sure that Sansaand Arya are gonna die?
Sorry, what I said about hersons.
She, she thinks that they'redead.
I just forgot about that point.
So she just sees a woman thatyou just see, a woman that
(51:55):
doesn't have anything to livefor anymore.
She's like death is better forme than living in this world.
Like I think at that point,honestly, she could have just
easily taken her own life, as ifshe was like either it was her
taking her own life or her beingkilled, like in that instance,
like it's not funny, sorry, butlike that's that's that, like
that was just cat's mindset.
And I think that what georgewanted to communicate um through
(52:17):
the red wedding scene, waseffectively communicated because
of of um.
Because here's what he said yes, it was just to like not just
to do something different, butit was to to do that, you know,
to say what he said about hischaracters and to make sure that
people kind of know that noone's safe and, and you know,
(52:38):
not really give people what theyexpect in one way.
But he actually says that's oneof the reasons why he did it is
because he wanted people tofeel the weight of death.
He says it's a horrible chapterand it upsets people, it makes
people angry, it makes peoplesad.
People throw the book againstthe wall or into the fireplace.
When it was on TV, it had thesame effect on tens of thousands
, if not millions, of people.
To my mind, that's good.
(53:03):
We're talking about death here.
We all, in our real lives, haveexperienced death.
Your parents die, your bestfriend dies, sometimes in a
really tragic situation, yourchildren die or your wife or
husband dies.
It's terrible, it affects you,it makes you angry, it makes you
sad.
In our entertainment television,film, books over the centuries
as it's evolved, death is oftentreated very cavalierly.
Somebody is dead, we've got amystery and the detective has to
figure out who did it.
We never consider who thecorpse is or what his life was
(53:25):
like, what it's going to be likewithout him.
If I'm going to write a deathscene, particularly for major
characters, I want to make surethe reader feel it.
That's what the Red Wedding, Ithink, successfully accomplished
.
People felt that death and Ican't help but agree and I feel
like, yes, the shock value of itall might overshadow it, and
it's going to be argued whetherthat's a good thing or a bad
(53:46):
thing when it comes to George'strying to do the shock value of
it all, but ultimately it'sfeeling the weight of the death
of a huge character Not just one, but two and there is a very
tragic element to it and I thinkyou said something before we
started recording that you founda fact that was inspired by
something like in history.
(54:07):
George pulled inspiration fromsomething that's actually
happened in real life.
So I think that it did like.
George did accomplish what heset out to do, even though I
would make like the kind offootnote and be like maybe the
shock factor of it all does takeaway from it a little bit.
So I think that, yeah, heaccomplished his goal.
Speaker 3 (54:26):
A mission accomplished for him.
I mean, it's served as aturning point for the audience,
right?
So when it comes to, like, theconsequences of Rob's death and
it effectively removed HouseStark from any political
landscape, that's it.
There was no pursuit ofindependence.
And then you have, in the nextepisode, we realized it was all
(54:48):
under Tywin Lannister's ordersand he's sitting there, he's
basically being kingly, andthat's it.
And we're like, okay, wheredoes this story go?
Now?
The story, the stars are done.
Who's going gonna fight thelannisters?
Stannis, you know?
(55:08):
I mean like, yeah, daenerys,she's out there, she's trying to
.
You know, uh, free slaves andher dragons are still too young.
You know, are we gonna havethis lannister reign for how
much longer?
Speaker 2 (55:22):
we kind of feel like it's theirs, like they won the
game already, right, yeah.
But then I guess, if you'rewatching it for this first time
and you have that realization,it could just be like how are
they going to fall?
Do you know what?
I mean Like it has to be fromwithin.
Then maybe they could predictwhere it was it would be heading
.
But you Then maybe they couldpredict where it would be
heading.
Speaker 3 (55:42):
You know I was going to add the audio of Michelle
Farrelly's last scene but youknow, I don't want to do that,
it's too much.
No, don't, it's too much, Ican't.
For those you know.
Just if you want to rewatch it,go to YouTube.
You'll find I just can't hearher.
That yell is just freaking.
It penetrates your soul and Idon't even want to hear it
(56:03):
anymore.
Well, you did mention the RedWedding, the live event, the
real life events that I foundthose from Scottish history.
There's something called theBlack Dinner from 1440.
A 10-year-old Earl of Douglaswas invited to dine with King
James II only to have a blackbull's head, a symbol of death,
(56:24):
served before he and his brotherwere executed.
And then something called theGlencoe Massacre of 1692.
The Campbell clan killed theirMcDonald host after accepting
their hospitality Betrayal underthe sacred rules of guest
rights.
Sound familiar?
Speaker 2 (56:42):
I think we have pretty much covered everything
about the Red Wedding that wecould possibly find online or
could talk about ourselves, butthere's actually one tiny little
Easter egg or fun fact aboutthe episode.
I think Lots of people knowthis, but this would be really
cool to mention.
I guess it's a fun.
It's a tidbit from the show,which is that in the red wedding
(57:03):
scene there's actually amusician.
I don't really know whatinstrument he's playing, but uh,
the, the drummer from coldplay,is actually one of the
musicians on the red wedding,which is actually a really fun.
Speaker 3 (57:15):
Uh, cameo coldplay exists in george's world
coldplay and ed sheeran yes ohmy gosh, okay, so let's get to
our scene of the episode.
Are we gonna say, obviouslywe're saying the last scene?
yeah, we can't say anything elsethere's nothing else that can
top it.
(57:35):
Obviously and we've talkedabout it now uh, this episode is
rated 9.9 on IMDb and it's oneof the highest rated episodes of
television when it comes to howmany people reviewed it,
because there's some episodesthat have a 9.9 and 10 people
(57:55):
reviewed it, so that doesn'treally count.
We're talking about hundreds ofthousands of reviews and it
comes to a 9.9.
So what is your rating of thereigns of castamere?
Speaker 2 (58:07):
I'd give it a 9.5 really you can't give this a 10
if this is because look no, likeit's it's, I want to give it to
10, but at the same time, likehonestly, like it just feels a
bit no, you're right, like it'sjust because the danny makes it
(58:33):
a bit less focused, even thoughI love danny we agree on that.
Speaker 3 (58:37):
But what happens?
That build-up and and theending makes up for daenerys's
little you know story and samyeah, yeah yeah, so you can.
It makes up for that.
This is a 10, I think.
This is what the for me.
I think is that the third 10I'm giving out.
I think I gave out a 10 for thefirst episode, uh, and then
(58:59):
blackwater.
I gave a 10, and then this one,and that concludes our 70th
episode of the podcast.
Thanks for joining us as weunpack this brutal turning point
.
If you're still reeling, you'renot alone.
This is the moment thatshattered hearts and changed the
realm forever.
But make sure to follow, rateand share if you enjoyed the
(59:20):
episode.
To follow the podcast onInstagram, go to
dancingwith__dragons.
Join us next time as we reviewthe season finale of the third
season of Game of Thrones.
Meanwhile, I will attempt topick up the pieces and follow
the scattered stars into theaftermath of betrayal, because
in Westeros the dead may fall,but the North remembers.
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