February 18, 2025 • 52 mins
Varys’ journey from a beggar in Lys to a powerful figure in Westeros raises questions about the true nature of power and loyalty. We explore his complex motivations, relationships, and the moral ambiguities of his character throughout the episode.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Once I had served the sorcerer's purpose, he threw me
out of his house to die.
I resolved to live to spite him.
I begged.
I sold what parts of my bodyremained to me.
I became an excellent thief andsoon learned that the contents
of a man's letters are morevaluable than the contents of
(00:23):
his purse.
Step by step, one distastefultask after another, I made my
way from the slums of Myr to thesmall council chamber.
Influence grows like a weed.
I tended mine patiently untilits tendrils reached from the
(00:47):
red keep all the way across tothe far side of the world, where
I managed to wrap them aroundsomething very special the
sorcerer.
Hello, my old friend, it's beena long time.
(01:12):
I have no doubt the revenge youwant will be yours in time, if
you have the stomach for it.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Hello and welcome to Dancing with Dragons, your go-to
podcast for everything relatedto Game of Thrones, house of the
Dragon and the rest of GeorgeRR Martin's Song of Ice and Fire
universe.
My name is Minowa and I'm here,as always, with my co-host,
sony, and we're here for our60th episode of the podcast.
It's insane that we've beendoing this for over 60 episodes
so far and for over a year and ahalf, and in the blink of an
eye would hopefully be at 100episodes.
(01:54):
This episode we're doingcharacter deep dive on someone
who has been going a littleviral on the internet lately and
honestly, it's about time andhe'll be pretty happy about it.
Varys and his monologue onpower is all over TikTok lately.
There are people reacting to it, acting it or just appreciating
it in Varys himself, and allthe attention is well-deserved
and understandable.
And we're doing this episodebecause of you guys, our dear
listeners.
(02:14):
We put up a poll on theInstagram page at
dancingwith__dragons on what ournext episode topic should be,
and Varys got an overwhelmingsupport and it makes us happy
that you guys chose him as well.
It was fun to involve you guys.
I'm definitely planning to domore polls in the future, as
well as character deep dives andof course, our DMs are always
open to suggestions.
But we're so glad that youchose Varys.
I had a fun time researching himand I know Tony did as well.
(02:34):
What did you think of it, tony?
Did you have a hard timeresearching Varys?
I did discuss this beforerecording, but I gather that it
wasn't as easy as it might havebeen for me.
It wasn't as fun, I guess.
Maybe, I don't know, it's funto talk about him, but yeah Well
, hello everyone.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
I want to say that I figured I put the poll up and I
put Sordavos versus Varys and Igo this should be interesting.
Sordavos is such a lovablecharacter and Varys is such an
interesting unique characterfrom the show and it should be
close.
And I didn't realize and I keptchecking every couple hours and
I go that's pretty close.
(03:12):
And then I woke up the next dayand it was like 70 to whatever.
And I go, oh okay, I guess theyreally want to hear us chat
about Varys.
And as soon as I startedlooking up because't I'm trying
to reread the books and the showand all that, like there's so
many little intricate detailsyou forget.
And I try because we don'treally get much of his
(03:34):
background, it's just littledribs and drabs and I start
looking and I go to like theGame of Thrones, like Reddit
stuff, and I go Varys and I go,oh my goodness, and I started
reading.
And then I started looking upother stuff and next thing, you
know, I'm in the couch for likethree, four hours just writing
and reading stuff and then Ifound myself literally rereading
(03:57):
chapters and I go, why am Idoing this?
Because there's a final.
I'll talk about that later,because that's something that
one of our listeners or Louis,sent the question.
But no, I'll talk about thatlater, because that's something
that one of our listeners, orLouis, sent the question.
But no, I really had fun.
I'm excited for this episode.
Varys is one of those charactersthat you know you're instantly
hooked because you don't knowwhat he is.
(04:17):
It's not so black and whitewhen it comes to his character.
You know we're introduced tohim in the third episode of
season one, when ned gets to hisfirst small council meeting and
you know he seems nice, butthen, at the same time, he has
that look, he has the robe, he's, he has the, he's bald, he's
(04:38):
pale, he's like what is he?
It's like a wizard or what ishe like?
He looks devious.
I'm not trying to be like, youknow, judge a book by its cover,
but, come on, he looks kind ofmysterious and devious at the
same time.
Okay, I want to know more fromhim.
You know, I want to know what'slike, what is his true
(04:58):
motivation, and that's thebiggest question that I can pose
to you or anybody who is a fanwhat is his true motivation?
Speaker 3 (05:07):
All right, I'm so glad that we're starting there
because I have my own likeparagraph about it when I did my
research.
I'm so excited to discuss itand I think it does have to do
with Ferris's origin story.
I thought that we were going togo deep into it and discuss it,
but I'm glad that you includedthat clip at the beginning of
the show because it justperfectly sums it up so
concisely.
(05:27):
You know where he came from,his background, and just to give
you a little bit more contextas to why I'm going to say what
I'm going to say, you know hewas born in Lys.
As a slave he traveled with agroup of actors and like beggars
I think all around the freecities and until a sorcerer in
Myr made Varys's master an offerthat he couldn't refuse.
So Varys was sold to thesorcerer.
(05:48):
Varys became the type of personthat he is, if you understand
what I'm saying, and thenbasically he was discarded and
left on the streets to die.
And then he worked as a thief.
He formed an alliance withIllyrio, which is very
interesting because basicallyVarys was kind of like a I don't
want to call him a Robin Hoodtype of figure, but interesting
because basically Varys was kindof like a I don't want to call
him a Robin Hood type of figure,but he was a clever type of
thief that would steal objectsfrom lesser thieves or other
(06:09):
people and then the Liridurwould basically get the objects
back and then sell them back tothe original owners so it was a
very interesting business thatthey had going there.
Um, so that's how Varysbasically got rich and then made
, slowly made a name for himselfuntil he he gained a lot of
power and found himself on thesmall council.
So that's just to add a bitmore context to Varys' story and
what he said at the beginningof the episode, what I'm going
(06:30):
to say about his motivations.
So I found Varys' motivationsvery interesting because he does
all of this.
He does everything that we'veseen in the show and in the
books, but to me he doesn'treally seem ambitious.
You know he's paired finger,for example, but this is fingers
.
An ambitious person I never sawthat in in veris.
When we see him he doesn't wantto gain much.
(06:51):
You know he never says, oh, Iwant this in exchange of this.
He never, ever bargains orsomething like that.
He doesn't value titles, lands,money the way other people do.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Little finger as the prime example and that's why I
I'm sorry, that's why he's nottrusted, because people in west
roads are like what do you mean?
You don't have?
Speaker 3 (07:10):
ambition.
Why don't you want?
Speaker 2 (07:12):
why don't you want wealth and power and lands?
What's wrong with you?
What do you mean you what?
What is this for the realmstuff?
Speaker 3 (07:20):
that's exactly what I was gonna say, because all he
just says it's for the realm andhe's acting in the realm's best
interest, but of course noone's buying it.
And I don't know if I entirelybuy it either.
I don't know if you think thatit's the entire truth, but to me
it's not just that I don't seeit as him doing something for
the greater good, because Idon't think that he's a very,
very objective person to me, andthe way I interpret him
(07:43):
basically is that he climbed upthe ladder, he's where he wants
to be and he just wants tosurvive.
He doesn't want to lose hisposition.
He was at the bottom of theladder, as I said, like on the
street, homeless, you know, andlike disfigured, basically, if
I'm allowed to say that, and hegot himself to one of the most
powerful places in the realm,which is, you know, a seat at
the small council, and I thinkthat he's utilizing his skills
(08:05):
to maintain the status and notlose it.
Like the secrets excite him andhe feels as though it gives him
power, sure, but he just wantsto maintain his way of living.
He doesn't.
It's why he doesn't really haveany true allegiance.
He just wants to remainbeneficial to everyone, but
mainly to himself, like he's asurvivor and he intends to
(08:25):
remain that way and that's justthe only motivation.
That's, I think, driving him.
I don't necessarily think thatit's just for the realm, it's
just for him to stay alive.
So when he does all of this,he's like what's going to keep
me alive, what's going to keepme safe and secure?
And other people like me, like,for example, the little kids
that he employs, he like thereare there.
There's like talk in westressabout why he has his little
(08:48):
birds and his spy network ofchildren, but like it never came
across as though he was anabusive person.
It just came across that heactually cared for them and
doesn't want people to be in thesame position, that he was like
kids.
And you know he compared thegame of thrones to a dangerous
body of water and says keep onpaddling.
That's one speech with sir.
I'm sure we're going to talkabout um, and he just wants to
(09:08):
maintain that.
That's just my interpretation.
I don't know if you see what Isee or if you have another
explanation as to what hismotivations are.
Or is it truly further?
Speaker 2 (09:18):
in the show his motivation or his desire is to
have somebody in the throne.
That's of a targaryen descentum, and he is.
We see that scene with him andillyrio in season one when aria
(09:40):
is spying.
You know what was it, where thedragons are the dragon skulls.
But I think in the book hewants a certain Targaryen on the
throne and I'll get into alittle spoiler bit later on on
which Targaryen he wants on thethrone.
It's not Daenerys, by the way.
What I find the most fascinatingthing about Varys is that he is
(10:01):
not a man of stature, he's nota powerful man.
He's not a powerful man.
He's not menacing.
All he uses, like he said inthat clip, is words, how he can
slither his way to the top,without really how he can get to
the top with violence, but notby him.
He can find ways of otherpeople doing his dirty work.
(10:22):
That's what I was trying to say.
The reason why this characterworks so well is because of the
actor who portrays him in thisconleth hill, and it's it's
funny because I don't really seehim.
I I look through hisfilmography and his tv.
Uh, it's a lot.
He's a working actor.
I think game of thrones was hismost um, uh, his biggest role,
(10:43):
but no, he's a great job.
He did an amazing job playingVarys.
Varys is a master of subtlety,like he's not physically
imposing or charismatic in anyway that many other characters
are.
You know you have Tyrion andNed, not Ned he's not
charismatic and Littlefinger,yet his intelligence and his
(11:06):
resourcefulness makes him like amajor force and how the, the
power of the politics in westrose unfolds.
So he has a quiet influencethat seems more dangerous and he
finds a way to again slitherhis way to the top and talk to
the king, or the hand of theking, and that's how he gets his
(11:29):
things done.
Coupled with his ever-presentair of mystery, makes him one of
the most multifacetedcharacters in the book and the
show, and we could probably dolike three parts of just talking
about Varys.
To be honest, you know we'regoing to do this one episode,
but we could probably do anotherone in the future, like part
two.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Well, I honestly could, because I think that
George might have a lot to sayabout Varys as well.
You know I mentioned how Varysis a character that's been
compared to Littlefinger, asthey're both, you know, kind of
like the slithery, sneakycharacters of George's world,
and George was actually askedabout this, about their
relationship and their dynamicwith one another in his world.
I don't know if he wasreferring more to the book
(12:13):
version of these characters orthe show version I'm guessing
the books, of course.
But when asked how he woulddescribe the relationship
between Littlefinger and Varys,he says it's his adversarial.
Both of them know a lot aboutthe other, including some very
damaging things.
They're essentially in astalemate because they know that
if one reveals what they knowabout the other, the other would
reciprocate and they could bothbe destroyed.
(12:33):
I think little finger has abetter idea of what veris wants
than then veris has an idea ofwhat little finger wants.
Little finger is an agent ofchaos who likes to be
unpredictable and succeeds inthat.
There, like just very directly,george says that you know,
little finger is the one that isan agent of.
Yes, he, he wants to messthings up kind of for his own
gain, very essentially want todo that.
He's not an agent of guess.
(12:55):
You would never describe him inthat way.
You know even his manipulationand his tactics.
They're not chaotic, they'revery calm and calculated.
He doesn't want to to messthings up unless they're like
very, very well done, wellorchestrated, and that's why I
think also backs up the factthat he kind of also values his
(13:15):
place and it's in his securityum.
But I found it interesting thatum george says that little
finger has a better idea ofvarus than varus has of little
finger, indicating that maybelittle finger has more better
idea of Varys than Varys has ofLittlefinger, indicating that
maybe Littlefinger has morepower because he is an agent of
chaos.
You know he is kind of more oneto watch out for.
So we should definitely do anepisode on Littlefinger as well,
because he has history as wellit's interesting.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
You said that George said they could both destroy
each other, and it made me thinkabout the United States and
Russia back in the day when theywere like they were in a
stalemate.
They know that if one launchesa nuclear weapon, the other
one's going to launch andthey're just going to destroy
each other.
So they're always like face toface.
(13:58):
They're both like if I tellpeople what I know, and the
other one's like well, if I tellpeople what I know.
But they're, they will if I tellpeople what I know, you know,
but they're not going to do itbecause they know, once one
missile is launched, everythingis just going to blow up and and
they're both going to be done,uh, so I think that was kind of
a funny way of putting it.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
It could be true.
You know that george alwayssays that he gets his
inspiration from history thatjust made me think about the USA
and the USSR.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
I wanted to talk about Varys', not upbringing,
but how he went from Essos andwhere was he In Meereen.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
Varys His beginnings.
He was born in Lys as a slave,but then he traveled with a
group of actors.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
What do they call people from Lys Lysine,
something like that, I think,because slave, but then he
traveled with a group of actors.
What do they call people fromlease lysine, something like
that, I think, because, um, itsounds like a cleaning product
you have over here.
It sounds like lysol lysol.
There you go, let's see.
Um no, so uh, he comes fromlet's just let me just say the
(15:03):
across the narrow sea.
How do you get from there tothe small council?
So back in the day whenDaenerys' dad, the Mad King, was
spiraling into madness, he wasdistrustful of every single
person, even in his council.
He didn't trust his son.
He thought that Rhaegar wasconspiring to get rid of him, so
(15:24):
Rhaegar was conspiring to getrid of him, so Rhaegar could
become king.
Then he hears of a eunuch in Lyswho was really good at
acquiring secrets andinformation and just decided to
bring him to court andimmediately made him the master
whisperer.
And I don't really know if thatwas the position of master
whisperers was something thatwas created by the Mad King, or
(15:45):
if that was something that wasalready there.
So I'll have to look into that.
I should have looked into that.
That's my bad.
So anyway, he became a trustedadvisor because he was rooting
out traitors and people who weretrying to conspire, so he was
really good at it Already.
He figured out to create thisnetwork of spies and his little
(16:06):
birds, as he calls them, andright away he became a trusted
ally.
And during Robert's rebellion.
When Tywin is at the gate ofKing's Landing we have Tywin,
who was, you know, mr he wassupposed to be.
You know, he was the Mad King'shand for 20 plus years.
Once he saw that the tide wasturning and Robert was going to
(16:31):
win, he goes, let me just joinRobert.
So he sacks King's Landing.
But before they open the gate,it is Varys who tells the Mad
King do not open the gate, donot open the gate.
Pycelle convinces Aerys to openthe gate and Jaime kills the
gate.
Paiselle convinces eris to openthe gate and jamie kills the
mad king.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
Blah, blah, blah but I kind of want to like backtrack
just a little bit and answersomething that you said, which
is about the role of the masterof whispers.
Um, we should honestly betalking more about um or doing
more episodes about westerosihistory that a lot of people
don't know about.
I just googled it um, like evenwe need a refresher on this.
But the role was createdbecause King Amegor I, his wife,
(17:11):
tyana of the Tower, wasbasically his mistress of
whispers.
At that point it was said thatspeaking secrets in the Red Keep
was foolish, as rats and othervermin were her spies and she
tortured many enemies of thecrown and basically she was the
first um mistress of whispers.
I guess she she had a role andwe should dive into that more
(17:32):
and talk about it.
I always say that we should gofor those types of older
sargerian kings, but it's sohard to talk about them
sometimes without spoiling houseof the dragon, which is why
we've avoided it for so long.
But yeah, uh, tony, you shouldknow this.
That wasn't created by eris.
We have, we have seen anothermaster whispers and dancing with
dragons and dancing withdragons on house of the dragon
oh yeah, yeah but they don'treally make sense.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
You know it's funny, because they don't.
They don't really call him thatright yeah, I don't think so,
but no, yeah, they don't theydon't refer to him as that, but
we know what he's doing, so weautomatically lump him in with
Varys and Littlefinger.
But I completely yeah, see,it's a brain fart Sometimes.
I'm old, I'm getting old, we'rehuman.
I'm almost oh, I didn't want tosay what I'm almost.
(18:19):
Yeah, you're right.
I mean sometimes, like whenyou're trying to write down
every little detail, you forgetthe simplest ones.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
What happens?
What happens?
Don't worry, I forgive you.
There's some, but there'ssomething that I really wanted
to get into in this episode andsomething that I mentioned in my
intro and it's the reason why Iguess all of you chose ferris
and why he's been going viraland that's for an incredible
scene that he has in season twoof Game of Thrones when he says
a riddle about power andbasically where it lies.
(18:52):
Let's listen to it.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Power is a curious thing.
My lord, are you fond ofriddles?
Why Am I about to hear one?
Three great men sit in a room aking, a priest and a rich man.
Between them stands a commonsellsword.
Each great man bids thesellsword, kill the other two.
Who lives, who dies, depends onthe sellsword, does it?
(19:18):
He has neither crown, nor gold,nor favor with the gods.
He has a sword, the power oflife and death.
But if it's swordsmen who rule,why do we pretend kings hold
all the power?
When Ned Stark lost his head,who was truly responsible?
Joffrey the Executioner orsomething else?
I've decided.
(19:40):
I don't like riddles.
Power resides where men believeit resides.
It's a trick, a shadow on thewall, and a very small man can
cast a very large shadow oh, Igot chills just listening to
(20:02):
that.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
And if you see the edits on tiktok with like the,
the music playing in thebackground, it's, it's amazing.
It makes you remember like thegreatness of Game of Thrones.
Um, and people were discussinglike the meaning of the quote
and appreciating it.
On TikTok and on social mediayou see people in the comments
discussing what's could mean andwhat's like the actual solution
.
You're like what's?
(20:23):
How can you respond to that?
You know, tyrian just says Idon't like riddles, but what's
the actual like interpretation?
So george was actually askedabout this and he gave a very
like long but very interestinganswer that I think would be of
interest to us all.
So he says the whole subject ofpower is fascinating to me.
We're not surprised, george,I'm joking.
(20:44):
So he says how does power work?
What's it based on?
And Verus' riddle, which I wasvery glad they included in the
show.
I think it's one of the mostimportant parts of the book.
He asks Tyrion who has the realpower in this situation.
The rich man, the priest andthe king are each telling the
sellsword to kill the otherpeople.
So it's actually the sellswordwho has the power, since he's
(21:04):
the one who has the sword in hishand, he has the power of life
and death over the other three,but he's going to obey one of
the other three because of theillusion of power.
When I see that scene played outin my mind's eye, these are
three old, fat guys and none ofthem can do anything themselves
to the sellsword, and yet theycommand him because they can
summon other sellswords.
Well, why do all the other?
Our societies are built on thestructure of sand and you see
(21:29):
that periodically with the fallsof great empires and nations.
That's amazing.
And if that just doesn'tcapture Game of Thrones as well,
why it works so well, why it'sso fascinating to us and George
as well, I think the mostsignificant part of his speech
is the line about a very smallman can cast a very large shadow
.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
I mean, he's kind of reflecting on the perception of
power, right, and even thosewith little real power like
himself, like he wants a slave.
He kind of manipulated his wayand played the game and created
an illusion of dominance and hebelieves that illusion and
perception are often morewhat's's the word?
(22:10):
Potent than true, than directpower.
And then his philosophy, Ithink, is what varies, is always
operating from the shadows.
He's pulling strings behind thescenes.
He understands that those whobelieve they hold power are
often the most vulnerablebecause they're not aware of how
(22:30):
little control they actuallyhave.
So it's easier for them.
So I mean that's I'm just sohappy, like george said, that
they included that because theyoriginally didn't have that in
the script.
And I think the person, thewriter who was, who wrote I
don't know who wrote that thatparticular episode, I guess he
was rereading the chapters andhe he found it and he goes oh my
(22:52):
goodness, I forgot, I got toand he added that in at the last
second.
So I was happy that we had awriter who knew the books and
actually read the books and hekind of just let me just do a
little refresher, let me justread this when you think about
monarchs like why is is power isnot inherent as something
(23:14):
that's constructed and webelieve in it.
Okay, your bloodline is becauseyou get to rule over me, you're
superior over me.
That illusion of power can beenough to make people believe
and act on it and kill, andwe're killing for the king.
And it's just like how manywars have in in our, on our
(23:35):
lives and this earth have goneon because people are listening
to.
A so-called king or rulerdoesn't have to be a king or a
prophet or whatever.
It's just kind of where, like,if just us little people just to
take it in our own hands, it'dprobably be a different world
right now.
I mean like I think that's in away I mean, look at what's
(23:57):
happening in the world right now.
We have people who I don't wantto get into this Hold on.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
Do you want to like, like, like backtrack a little
bit, because?
Speaker 2 (24:07):
No, no, no, I don't care.
I'm just going to say that whatI'm trying to say is that we
live in a world where very fewpeople hold the vast majority of
wealth and get to reap all therewards, while the many, many,
many of us are working andtoiling our butts off and we're
(24:28):
we're just fine with it, but wedon't see what's happening
beyond, like we.
Yeah, I let me just stop there,because I'm just gonna go on a
rant that I don't want to reallywant to on this podcast.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
maybe I'll do a another podcast in my in the
future interestingly enough, Idon't know, like how much ferris
would agree with you.
Just to go back to the topic ofVarys, I think that, first of
all, the intersection betweenpower and faith and what you
believe in is very, veryinteresting to me, and I think
(25:00):
that the way that George depictsthis in his world is a very
realistic case, no matter whichera of history you're going to
talk about or what exactly isgoing on in the world.
But but at the same time, Ithink that it's interesting to
see how, like why, peoplebelieve in in things that they
do.
You know what I mean, like whenyou I thought we're getting,
(25:21):
we're getting so off topic rightnow.
But like, for example, withvarus, why does he not really
believe in anything?
Why does he not like root for,for any person?
You mentioned that he's also atargaryen loyalist, but I I
don't 300 say, I believe thathe's 100 targaryen loyalist
because he I don't feel likethat's his core value.
So why do you believe in, inwhat you believe in?
Basically, you know what I meanand like that plays a role in
(25:44):
how you view power.
And that's the same thing withthe religions in the world and
the world of song, wise and fire, like minisandra, for example.
You know what I mean.
Like it's just interesting tothink about why, and like
economical things aside, whichis what you talked about, which
is like valid and stuff I don'tknow, I just like, of course,
all that, but you know what Imean.
Like I don't know, I want tosay something about the
intersection between power andfaith and people's motivations,
(26:08):
and I think that I just want tosay that I think that George
depicts a very accuratedepiction.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
I always say that we could do this an episode.
That speech alone is just worthits weight in gold, because we
could.
Obviously.
We're just, we've been talkingabout it for 10 minutes now.
Just that little speech speechthere and that scene, right,
there is why it's just one ofthe many, many scenes in season
(26:34):
two that make the show so great.
We actually have some questions.
I let me just.
We have five questions here, uh, three questions and two
comments actually.
So, uh, let me just ask thefirst one.
It's from shan film forger, ourfriend.
She says but he's actually amermaid.
Right, I have to know all ofgeorge's descriptions proving it
(26:56):
.
I think when we did a episodeabout theories uh, this is one
that you were so happy to bringup because it was so like fan
theory-ish, like, oh, he's amerman.
That's how he got to Dorne backto Meereen in less than a day.
From what I've seen, there's nosolid evidence in the Song of
Ice and Fire novels to confirmthat Varys is a mermaid, and it
(27:19):
remains entirely speculative.
George has made it clear thatVarys' backstory will be
explored in greater detail infuture books, but so far there's
been no indication that he hasany connections to mermaids or
the like, and I understand whypeople will do the fan theories.
He lives by the water.
(27:40):
He made that little comment toTyrion in season two.
Remember when he says oh,something about the water, he
just keeps paddling.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
Yes, one of the best quotes that he says.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Actually I don't have the quote with me, but he says
something about he gets thrownin the sea or something.
Anyway, if you have it, you canjust go ahead.
Speaker 3 (28:01):
So Varys says, the storms come and go, the waves
crash overhead, the big fish,the big fish.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
The big fish.
I'm leaving that in.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
No, please don't.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Yes, that's funny, come on.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
This is all because of Yoongi, if you know, you know
.
Anyways, the storms come, okay,the storms come and go, the
waves crash overhead, the bigfish eat the little fish and I
keep on paddling.
I referenced this before when Italked about how he's such a
(28:37):
survivor.
He he doesn't want to like, heintends on remaining a survivor
for the rest of the rest of hislife.
So that's why he's not likesettling for any situation
that's gonna put him at any risk.
Do you know what I mean?
Like it's, honestly, eventhough I would say that this is
his motivation, I feel like itkind of goes at odds with him
serving the mad king, but Ithink that that's just the most
(28:59):
secure place for him, even withthe mad king's.
Like madness, because I mean,he, he can play into that I
don't, he never did really butlike it's the most secure place
for him.
You know what I mean.
Like it's better than being onthe streets to him.
He still has a bed, he still,you know, can take care of other
people.
So I'll just say that, yeah,that's just.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
That's varus in my eyes we had a question from
raiden336 says varus died theway danny said he would for the
exact reason why he was executedjustified.
I'd say that's a good questionor a good comment, because I I
want us to dissect the scenehere between denaris and and
(29:41):
various, because I think it'sone of his best scenes and I
like and I like how denaris isvery like stone cold, killer
eyes like you don't betray meand I'll kill you, stuff like
that.
But I just love this, this, thisscene, and I just want us to.
Here we go.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
You sent words to Essos to murder Daenerys
Targaryen.
Your grace, I did what had tobe done To keep yourself alive.
Lord Varys has proven himself aloyal servant.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Proven himself loyal quite the opposite had to be
done to keep yourself alive.
Lord verus has proven himself aloyal servant.
Proven himself loyal.
Quite the opposite.
If he dislikes one monarch, heconspires to crown the next one.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
What kind of a servant is that the kind of the
realm needs?
Incompetence should not berewarded with blind loyalty.
As long as I have my eyes, I'lluse them.
Okay, I'm just gonna stop itthere, because I'll use them.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Okay, I'm just going to stop it there, because when
she tells him that, did you seehow he his tone of voice changed
?
Yes, like he was offended bythe way she said that.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
I think it's one of the few moments we see Varys
speak that way.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
I think we saw him speak that way when Tyrion says
something to him in season twoand he kind of his voice, the
tone of voice changes.
Yes, yes, says something to himin season two and he kind of his
voice, the tone of voicechanges like yes, yes, it goes
deeper, kind of yes, and I justlove the way he just says I'm
not going to be loyal justbecause you, you have to.
Uh, I will be loyal to thecrown, but to a certain point
I'm not going to be loyal, ifyou're mad or whatever and um,
(31:06):
but anyway, let me just, we'llhear the rest.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
I wasn't born into a great house.
I came from nothing.
I was sold as a slave andcarved up as an offering.
When I was a child I lived inalleys, gutters, abandoned
houses.
You wish to know what my trueloyalties lie.
Not with any king or queen, butwith the people.
The people who suffer underdespots and prosper under just
(31:30):
rule.
The people whose hearts you aimto win.
If you demand blind allegiance,I respect your wishes.
Grey Worm can behead me or yourdragons can devour me, but if
you let me live, I will serveyou well.
I will dedicate myself toseeing you on the Iron Throne.
(31:51):
Because I choose you?
Because I know that people haveno better chance than you.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
Demanding blind allegiance?
That sounds very familiar,anyway.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
This is season seven, Tony.
This is one of the seasons thatwe can't really take seriously.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
No, I'm just saying that the way he said if you
require blind allegiance, I'mtalking about real world now.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
Oh my.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
God, but no, let's finish this.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Swear this to me Varys If you ever think I'm
failing the people, you won'tconspire behind my back.
You'll look me in the eye, asyou have done today, and you'll
tell me how I'm failing them.
I swear it, my queen.
Speaker 3 (32:59):
And I swear this, If you ever betray me I'll burn you
alive.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
I would expect nothing less from the Mother of
Dragons.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
I would expect nothing less from the mother of
dragons.
So, raiden, your comment was hedied the way Danny said he
would, and she was true to herword.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
She was always true to her word.
Then suddenly they decided youknow what?
Speaker 2 (33:26):
no, this is season 7, which we talk about a lot, and
this is one of the better scenesof the season.
She just looks so amazing there.
Anyway, I just you ever seenModern Family?
Speaker 3 (33:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
When Phil says he's attracted to powerful women.
Oh, I don't remember that hegoes Condoleezza Rice, michelle
Obama he named just black women.
He goes wait a minute.
In that moment I think heconvinced her because she
appreciated him being forthrightand she probably never seen
(34:09):
that.
You don't really see that oftenwhen you're talking to you know
, a king or queen, like peopleare scared or trying to.
They're walking on eggshells,so to speak.
You know we don't want tooffend you, but he's like you
know what?
If you want, if you want me tojust follow you, just to follow
you, then just kill me.
I guess I can't stand back andjust not tell you if you're
(34:29):
doing something wrong.
That dynamic is something I wishwe had.
If Berenson was still alive,that would have been funny
because he had a relationshipwith Rivera as well.
They're both in the same smallcouncil.
I'm just throwing stuff outthere.
So that answers your questionor comment there.
Raiden, while we're doinglittle clips here, I just want
(34:53):
to add a couple more, but Ithought this was kind of a
foreshadowing.
This was all the way back inseason two, when um varus learns
about daenerys not learns abouther, but he that she's still
alive this morning I heard asong all the way way from Qarth,
beyond the Red Waste.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Daenerys Targaryen lives.
A girl at the edge of the worldis the least of our problems.
She has three dragons.
But even if what they say istrue, it'll be years before they
are fully grown, and thenthere'll be nowhere to hide.
One game at a time, my friendnowhere to hide.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
Indeed, when she rains fire on king's landing but
he's not there.
I have a question here fromcaden underscore.
Crippin asks are there any bigdifferences between book and
show?
Varys and that's the one that Ispent the most time researching
and writing because there are alot of big differences between
(35:59):
show and book.
Varys, like most of thecharacters, once you get, once
you read them all, you'll kindof be like you know what was the
biggest surprise.
Is this, this, this, this, this, this character?
Just to start off, varys is nota point of view character in the
novel, so we don't get to seehis POV at all.
So his actions are witnessedand interpreted by, like Ned
(36:22):
Stark, tyrion, cersei, arya,when she hears the people
talking in you know where thedragon skulls were, and I think
maybe sansa will mention himonce in a while.
But those were the characterswhere he interacted with the
most.
Uh, and game of thrones showshim to be a little more caring
to his little birds, treatingthem kindly and offering them
(36:43):
like rewards for their service,or however, but in the book he's
a little less nurturing.
So varus uses kids whosetongues have been cut off or cut
out.
He doesn't cut them himself,but he prefers them.
In those conditions.
This darker aspect of hispersona disappears in the show.
So his counterpart in the showis more gentler to the kids, so
(37:06):
he's not like this ruthlessa-hole.
And, like I mentioned before inthe episode, he was a master of
disguise and we don't reallysee that.
Actually, that would have beentoo comical for me.
And the show's so serious likeGame of Thrones for him to like
be in a dress and a wig andmakeup.
Tyrion would have been likejust like busting out, laughing
(37:27):
or something, just for like amoment of, and I don't know if
that would have been like withhis character.
So anyway, there are differentthings in the novels that I
could say, because it was in thebook and the show he does help
Tyrion escape after Tywin'smurder, but he doesn't join him
in the.
In the show he joins him, butin the novel he remains in the
(37:49):
red keep and hiding.
Okay.
So I kind of made a mistake.
So, like show Varys isconcerned relies on finding a
capable leader on for the IronThrone, whoever that is.
But book Varys is like hisintent is to put a Targaryen in
the Iron Throne but, like Imentioned, it's not Daenerys.
(38:09):
So what happens is spoileralert.
Here we go.
If you haven't read the book,minwan says she's okay, she kind
of heard this already.
You haven't read the book.
Minwan says she's okay, shekind of heard this already.
I won't spoil the last pagebecause I think it's fascinating
.
I'm just going to spoil alittle bit.
Spoiler alert Three, two, one,okay.
So in the fifth book, varys andIllyrio get together again and
(38:31):
they have.
This plot At first was to putViserys on the throne, but then
we find out there's a characternamed Yungryph.
He is introduced as the son ofRhaegar Targaryen claims to have
survived the Second King'sLanding and escaped to Essos.
In the show, rhaegar's kid andson and daughter are killed by
the mountain.
In reality, yungryph is notRhaegar's son, but a pretender
(38:56):
created by Varys and Illyrio.
So what happens is they plan topresent Aegon to challenge
Daenerys' claim to the throne.
So Young Griff is awell-trained, charismatic young
man with a compelling backstory.
He's been basically trainedsince birth to act like a king,
to talk like a king, despite hisfalse identity young Greek
(39:18):
police.
So he believes he's anArthargarian.
Speaker 3 (39:22):
Oh, okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
He aims to take the Iron Throne with the support of
the Golden Company.
His appearance creates asignificant threat to Daenerys,
especially with the support he'sgarnering.
What they truly want to do iseither put Aegon in the throne
or have Aegon say hey, this isyour nephew, right?
That would be her nephew,correct?
No, yeah, yeah, Rhaegar was herbrother.
(39:45):
I'm all like confused now.
Rhaegar was Daenerys' brother,so that would be her nephew,
Like Jon, is her nephew right?
Speaker 3 (39:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
Yeah, so, anyway, uh.
So this is the big storylinethat was left out of the show
and was replaced by John beingson of Liana and Rhaegar and
then him being the AegonTargaryen character, but we
didn't get anything out of it,right, aegon Targaryen character
?
But we didn't get anything outof it, right?
(40:16):
So anyway, uh, this is going tobe interesting because this is
how is we?
We leave off with a trying tosack the city and it ends like
that.
And we have a comment fromLewis who says he Lewis Lulu
review says I have no question,but Varys is cameo at the end of
a dance with dragons.
It gives me chills every time.
Speaker 3 (40:43):
Meanwhile, no question, but varus's cameo at
the end of a dance with dragonsgives me chills every time.
Meanwhile, we'll find out inabout four years he's trying to
be a little cheeky our friendthere, maybe, honestly, maybe,
or or uh, I just catch up on thebook stuff before reading the
actual books.
I'm joking, I I don't want toactually do that, but I do think
that, like, because my readingpace is not like the fastest,
then I think that like it wouldbe really like beneficial or
(41:06):
like interesting to do episodeson people like young griffin,
let's just talk about, likethose abandoned book plots, like
, and I'll just try to catch up,you know what I mean, I'll try
my best, and and because I knowthat they're so interesting and
they won't see the lights of dayin the show, of course we won't
see them in live action.
So we should do something likethat.
I should spoil it you know what.
It's fine If I can't catch up.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
You are so smart Because you just gave me the
great of a series we could doabandoned book plots.
(41:48):
There you go.
Yeah, that's perfect.
I said do you underestimate mygenius?
And you said, yes, I don't seeyou appreciate it.
Okay.
So, um, he's talking about theend of the book and varys comes
out.
I'm not going to say whathappens, but it's bone chilling.
The hairs on your body aregoing to perk up and give you
goosebumps.
Once you get to that, andhopefully by the time you get to
that, we actually have Winds ofWinter, and you could just
continue straight on.
(42:09):
So that's one of the scenesthat I'm on, one of the plots
that would have been included inthe show, but we don't get All
right Spoiler alert Done.
We're done with spoilers.
So we're finishing up theepisode here and I wanted to ask
you what do you see Varys as?
Do you see him as a hero?
(42:29):
Do you see him as a villain, ordo you see him as one of those
characters that are in between?
Speaker 3 (42:36):
you don't know what to think of um, I see him as
definitely a gray area type ofcharacter.
For sure, he's not good, nor ishe bad, and I think that that's
just because he doesn't doanything to to really be
classified as good or bad.
He acts in like a certain way,but I don't think any of it is
unethical, you know what.
(42:56):
I mean, it's not, he's a verygray area character, and those
gray area characters are thecharacters, I guess, that make
Game of Thrones so interestingin what it is Like.
You know him, jaime, it's goingto be said for almost everyone
in this universe, but he's, Ithink, like a prime example of
someone that's just seems to be.
(43:18):
he's not a spectator, he's aplayer in the game of thrones,
but again, he's not like so he'snot as much of a player that,
like, seeks ambition and wantsto you know what I mean like he
doesn't want to win this gamefor himself he's not.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
He's not self-serving like little finger and cersei,
but he he's also not likealtruistic.
His belief in the greater goodoften justifies action that
causes harm.
So that's the true like.
His true nature is ambiguousand he's a character that works
like from the shadows andbalancing the, the principles,
(43:53):
with realities of power.
So blah, blah, blah.
You know what.
You know what I mean Like.
So yeah, I mean you could seehim totally as a gray area and I
don't see him as a hero because, like, I don't, just I'm not
jiving with the.
He's serving the greater good,because deep down, he's not
driven by personal power but theidea of creating a peaceful
Westeros.
(44:13):
I'm not totally saying, oh yeah, I believe him.
I would believe if Ned wouldsay that I want a peaceful this,
I want to have a prosperous.
I would go oh, ned, I believeyou.
But when it comes from Varys,I'm like no, I'm not.
Because it's just, it's toomuch manipulation from him to be
(44:35):
an honorable piece, because Idon't see any honor in him he
does he does help tyrian in manyways, like he's, he warns him
about stuff.
He warned ned even though heknew ned wouldn't take his
advice, but he said it anyway sohe can get in good graces with
ned.
That's how he plays the game.
(44:56):
You know, I'm not.
I I know ned's not gonna sayanything, but let me like, even
when he went to visit ned in thecells, in the black cells, like
he said, why would you tellcersei that you knew about the
secret?
And that's us.
We as the audience are like yes, why no?
(45:16):
Why ned?
Why did you?
Why would you say something sostupid?
You know he has those momentsof helping and then he has his
moments with the narrows, likehe's trying to actually be loyal
to her.
But then his past comes backand you know we, we get the
scene in season eight with himbeing killed, and you know, so
on yeah, I think that'sdefinitely where veris would lie
(45:38):
, for for most fans and orappreciators of george's world,
neither good nor bad.
Speaker 3 (45:44):
But actually came across a very interesting fan
theory during my research and um, of course the merman one is
hilarious and we we enjoyedtalking about it because it is
funny, um, but there's anotherone where it might actually make
you think or wonder, I don'tknow.
This theory basically says thatwhy did the sorcerer need to
(46:04):
use there, why did he need touse a body part of a random
child?
You know, because that's whathe was at that point.
The explanation that thistheorizer says that varus might
have royal blood, that's kind ofbeen done before in game of
thrones.
You know where someone's royalblood was chosen and then like
sacrificed or like harmed, oryou know, because of their blood
(46:26):
.
You know, we've seen melisandrechoose gendry for like whatever
she needed to do with her magic.
Um, and you know, this personsays that, oh, actually varus
could be Aegon, which I, ofcourse, I don't think is true.
Um, they say that.
You know, it explains how Varysknows the right to keep, where
only the Targaryens know theright to keep, and stuff like
that.
But I don't, I don't like that.
I just think that, um, it'sinteresting because, like you
(46:52):
know, it makes you wonder.
Why did that sorcerer choosethe random kid that was Varys
for his ritual?
Why not someone else?
What made him so special andinteresting?
It's an interesting thing thatmakes you wonder.
Speaker 2 (47:06):
Before we go, I have a question for you that I wrote
down.
If you could have Varys' spynetwork, who would you want to
know about the most?
Speaker 3 (47:16):
In the world of A song of ice and fire.
Yes, like to my own business,so I don't.
I'm not that curious um wait aminute.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
You don't like tea?
Speaker 3 (47:24):
I thought you liked tea I mean like I like hearing
it sometimes, but I'm not thebiggest gossip you know I
wrapped up all you're like.
Speaker 2 (47:32):
You know I need to know everybody's business no, no
I don't like tell you like,okay, I'm, I have enough going
on in my mind.
Speaker 3 (47:37):
I don't need to know everybody's business.
No, no, I have enough going onin my mind.
I don't need to know what otherpeople unless it's what they're
dealing with could damage orcould hurt me, then okay, that's
one thing, because you're goingto be looking out for me.
But just gossip, I don't thinkI'm interested.
It depends who I am as well.
If I was someone like Sansa orArya, I don't care.
Gossip, I don't think I'minterested.
(47:57):
Like, it depends who I am aswell.
Speaker 2 (47:57):
like if I was someone like sansa or aria, I don't
care, I don't know, I don't knowif I was, if I was the king, I
would say varus, I need you toknow, I need you just to look
out for anybody who's conspiringor somebody who has ill
intentions against me.
Like, if people want to talkand say whatever or they're
making a joke, that's fine.
(48:18):
But somebody who has true, likeI want to know who my enemies
are, like tell me.
Like I want to know who I needto be worried about, that's the
yeah and I'll say go go, go outand and tell your little birds
or whatever, and give me theinfo yeah, that's, that's like
it's welcome, that's like what Isaid, like but if I'm not just
(48:40):
a commoner harm me and we'relike yeah, like if someone wants
to harm me, then he wants tocome and warm warn me, then sure
, that's like, that's not gossip, that's that's protection,
that's that's good yeah, I'm acommoner.
Yeah, I'm be like okay, is mywife unfaithful?
What's going on?
Where is she going?
Speaker 3 (48:59):
like if I was sans I wouldn't want to tell virus.
Like, oh, is cersei talking,you know trash about me.
Or if I was marjorie I wouldn'twant to.
You know, like about marjorie.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
Or if marjorie we can do, the plot sounds like it's
no, who cares, it's just if it'sa matter of like life and death
, and then okay, fine, come andtell me, but otherwise no this
has been a fascinating episodeum shining the light on varus,
and I think that I want to putthe audio of the last scene that
varus is in in the game ofthrones, season eight.
Speaker 1 (49:29):
It was me I hope I deserve this Truly.
I do.
I hope I'm wrong.
Goodbye, old friend.
Speaker 3 (49:53):
Lord Varys I, daenerys of House, targaryen,
first of my name, Breaker ofChains and Mother of Dragons
sentence you to die.
Dracarys.
Speaker 2 (50:39):
At that point the show made us feel bad for Varys.
Speaker 3 (50:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:43):
So, yeah, that's how Varys ended his arc in the show.
His arc is alive in the booksand hopefully we'll get to see
it in the next one, Winds ofWinter.
We should have a clicker everytime we say winds of winter on
this show yeah ding, ding, ding.
Speaker 3 (51:00):
Winds of winter I just want to say that when we
started this podcast for somereason I think it was in our
original like plan we thoughtthat we'd be doing these
character deep dives, like onceevery couple of weeks, and I
honestly think that we shouldjust really do that again or
like stick to that plan or dothem more regularly, because I
had so much fun talking aboutVarys and just showing him a
(51:22):
little appreciation and you knowwe can never run out of
characters in Geordi's world so.
I this wasn't our first one.
We've covered Mad King beforein the past as well.
I just think it would be somuch fun to talk about all the
different characters, and ifthere's anyone that you or your
listeners want us to cover, thenplease let us know on Instagram
.
We would love to know what youguys would want to hear from us
(51:44):
about.
Speaker 2 (51:45):
Yeah, and I think what we'll do is we'll keep
putting polls up for our next,not our next one, but in the
future I'll put a poll up ofcharacters and see who wins the
poll.
That's going to be all for our60th episode of dancing with
dragons.
We thank you all for listeningand tuning in, so follow us on
social media.
We have instagram dancing withunderscore dragons.
(52:06):
There you can keep up with thepodcast.
I put up stories uh, you cankeep up with when we are going
to post the episode, when we putup prompts for you to send us
questions.
We put up reels and all thatsort of fun stuff For those
listening on Spotify, applePodcasts, iheartradio, any other
(52:27):
of the millions of podcastplatforms we appreciate, if you
like, rate, share, comment.
All that good stuff and untilnext time, peace out.
Once I had served the sorcerer's purpose, he threw me
out of his house to die.
I resolved to live to spite him.
I begged.
I sold what parts of my bodyremained to me.
I became an excellent thief andsoon learned that the contents
of a man's letters are morevaluable than the contents of
(00:23):
his purse.
Step by step, one distastefultask after another, I made my
way from the slums of Myr to thesmall council chamber.
Influence grows like a weed.
I tended mine patiently untilits tendrils reached from the
(00:47):
red keep all the way across tothe far side of the world, where
I managed to wrap them aroundsomething very special the
sorcerer.
Hello, my old friend, it's beena long time.
(01:12):
I have no doubt the revenge youwant will be yours in time, if
you have the stomach for it.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Hello and welcome to Dancing with Dragons, your go-to
podcast for everything relatedto Game of Thrones, house of the
Dragon and the rest of GeorgeRR Martin's Song of Ice and Fire
universe.
My name is Minowa and I'm here,as always, with my co-host,
sony, and we're here for our60th episode of the podcast.
It's insane that we've beendoing this for over 60 episodes
so far and for over a year and ahalf, and in the blink of an
eye would hopefully be at 100episodes.
(01:54):
This episode we're doingcharacter deep dive on someone
who has been going a littleviral on the internet lately and
honestly, it's about time andhe'll be pretty happy about it.
Varys and his monologue onpower is all over TikTok lately.
There are people reacting to it, acting it or just appreciating
it in Varys himself, and allthe attention is well-deserved
and understandable.
And we're doing this episodebecause of you guys, our dear
listeners.
(02:14):
We put up a poll on theInstagram page at
dancingwith__dragons on what ournext episode topic should be,
and Varys got an overwhelmingsupport and it makes us happy
that you guys chose him as well.
It was fun to involve you guys.
I'm definitely planning to domore polls in the future, as
well as character deep dives andof course, our DMs are always
open to suggestions.
But we're so glad that youchose Varys.
I had a fun time researching himand I know Tony did as well.
(02:34):
What did you think of it, tony?
Did you have a hard timeresearching Varys?
I did discuss this beforerecording, but I gather that it
wasn't as easy as it might havebeen for me.
It wasn't as fun, I guess.
Maybe, I don't know, it's funto talk about him, but yeah Well
, hello everyone.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
I want to say that I figured I put the poll up and I
put Sordavos versus Varys and Igo this should be interesting.
Sordavos is such a lovablecharacter and Varys is such an
interesting unique characterfrom the show and it should be
close.
And I didn't realize and I keptchecking every couple hours and
I go that's pretty close.
(03:12):
And then I woke up the next dayand it was like 70 to whatever.
And I go, oh okay, I guess theyreally want to hear us chat
about Varys.
And as soon as I startedlooking up because't I'm trying
to reread the books and the showand all that, like there's so
many little intricate detailsyou forget.
And I try because we don'treally get much of his
(03:34):
background, it's just littledribs and drabs and I start
looking and I go to like theGame of Thrones, like Reddit
stuff, and I go Varys and I go,oh my goodness, and I started
reading.
And then I started looking upother stuff and next thing, you
know, I'm in the couch for likethree, four hours just writing
and reading stuff and then Ifound myself literally rereading
(03:57):
chapters and I go, why am Idoing this?
Because there's a final.
I'll talk about that later,because that's something that
one of our listeners or Louis,sent the question.
But no, I'll talk about thatlater, because that's something
that one of our listeners, orLouis, sent the question.
But no, I really had fun.
I'm excited for this episode.
Varys is one of those charactersthat you know you're instantly
hooked because you don't knowwhat he is.
(04:17):
It's not so black and whitewhen it comes to his character.
You know we're introduced tohim in the third episode of
season one, when ned gets to hisfirst small council meeting and
you know he seems nice, butthen, at the same time, he has
that look, he has the robe, he's, he has the, he's bald, he's
(04:38):
pale, he's like what is he?
It's like a wizard or what ishe like?
He looks devious.
I'm not trying to be like, youknow, judge a book by its cover,
but, come on, he looks kind ofmysterious and devious at the
same time.
Okay, I want to know more fromhim.
You know, I want to know what'slike, what is his true
(04:58):
motivation, and that's thebiggest question that I can pose
to you or anybody who is a fanwhat is his true motivation?
Speaker 3 (05:07):
All right, I'm so glad that we're starting there
because I have my own likeparagraph about it when I did my
research.
I'm so excited to discuss itand I think it does have to do
with Ferris's origin story.
I thought that we were going togo deep into it and discuss it,
but I'm glad that you includedthat clip at the beginning of
the show because it justperfectly sums it up so
concisely.
(05:27):
You know where he came from,his background, and just to give
you a little bit more contextas to why I'm going to say what
I'm going to say, you know hewas born in Lys.
As a slave he traveled with agroup of actors and like beggars
I think all around the freecities and until a sorcerer in
Myr made Varys's master an offerthat he couldn't refuse.
So Varys was sold to thesorcerer.
(05:48):
Varys became the type of personthat he is, if you understand
what I'm saying, and thenbasically he was discarded and
left on the streets to die.
And then he worked as a thief.
He formed an alliance withIllyrio, which is very
interesting because basicallyVarys was kind of like a I don't
want to call him a Robin Hoodtype of figure, but interesting
because basically Varys was kindof like a I don't want to call
him a Robin Hood type of figure,but he was a clever type of
thief that would steal objectsfrom lesser thieves or other
(06:09):
people and then the Liridurwould basically get the objects
back and then sell them back tothe original owners so it was a
very interesting business thatthey had going there.
Um, so that's how Varysbasically got rich and then made
, slowly made a name for himselfuntil he he gained a lot of
power and found himself on thesmall council.
So that's just to add a bitmore context to Varys' story and
what he said at the beginningof the episode, what I'm going
(06:30):
to say about his motivations.
So I found Varys' motivationsvery interesting because he does
all of this.
He does everything that we'veseen in the show and in the
books, but to me he doesn'treally seem ambitious.
You know he's paired finger,for example, but this is fingers
.
An ambitious person I never sawthat in in veris.
When we see him he doesn't wantto gain much.
(06:51):
You know he never says, oh, Iwant this in exchange of this.
He never, ever bargains orsomething like that.
He doesn't value titles, lands,money the way other people do.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Little finger as the prime example and that's why I
I'm sorry, that's why he's nottrusted, because people in west
roads are like what do you mean?
You don't have?
Speaker 3 (07:10):
ambition.
Why don't you want?
Speaker 2 (07:12):
why don't you want wealth and power and lands?
What's wrong with you?
What do you mean you what?
What is this for the realmstuff?
Speaker 3 (07:20):
that's exactly what I was gonna say, because all he
just says it's for the realm andhe's acting in the realm's best
interest, but of course noone's buying it.
And I don't know if I entirelybuy it either.
I don't know if you think thatit's the entire truth, but to me
it's not just that I don't seeit as him doing something for
the greater good, because Idon't think that he's a very,
very objective person to me, andthe way I interpret him
(07:43):
basically is that he climbed upthe ladder, he's where he wants
to be and he just wants tosurvive.
He doesn't want to lose hisposition.
He was at the bottom of theladder, as I said, like on the
street, homeless, you know, andlike disfigured, basically, if
I'm allowed to say that, and hegot himself to one of the most
powerful places in the realm,which is, you know, a seat at
the small council, and I thinkthat he's utilizing his skills
(08:05):
to maintain the status and notlose it.
Like the secrets excite him andhe feels as though it gives him
power, sure, but he just wantsto maintain his way of living.
He doesn't.
It's why he doesn't really haveany true allegiance.
He just wants to remainbeneficial to everyone, but
mainly to himself, like he's asurvivor and he intends to
(08:25):
remain that way and that's justthe only motivation.
That's, I think, driving him.
I don't necessarily think thatit's just for the realm, it's
just for him to stay alive.
So when he does all of this,he's like what's going to keep
me alive, what's going to keepme safe and secure?
And other people like me, like,for example, the little kids
that he employs, he like thereare there.
There's like talk in westressabout why he has his little
(08:48):
birds and his spy network ofchildren, but like it never came
across as though he was anabusive person.
It just came across that heactually cared for them and
doesn't want people to be in thesame position, that he was like
kids.
And you know he compared thegame of thrones to a dangerous
body of water and says keep onpaddling.
That's one speech with sir.
I'm sure we're going to talkabout um, and he just wants to
(09:08):
maintain that.
That's just my interpretation.
I don't know if you see what Isee or if you have another
explanation as to what hismotivations are.
Or is it truly further?
Speaker 2 (09:18):
in the show his motivation or his desire is to
have somebody in the throne.
That's of a targaryen descentum, and he is.
We see that scene with him andillyrio in season one when aria
(09:40):
is spying.
You know what was it, where thedragons are the dragon skulls.
But I think in the book hewants a certain Targaryen on the
throne and I'll get into alittle spoiler bit later on on
which Targaryen he wants on thethrone.
It's not Daenerys, by the way.
What I find the most fascinatingthing about Varys is that he is
(10:01):
not a man of stature, he's nota powerful man.
He's not a powerful man.
He's not menacing.
All he uses, like he said inthat clip, is words, how he can
slither his way to the top,without really how he can get to
the top with violence, but notby him.
He can find ways of otherpeople doing his dirty work.
(10:22):
That's what I was trying to say.
The reason why this characterworks so well is because of the
actor who portrays him in thisconleth hill, and it's it's
funny because I don't really seehim.
I I look through hisfilmography and his tv.
Uh, it's a lot.
He's a working actor.
I think game of thrones was hismost um, uh, his biggest role,
(10:43):
but no, he's a great job.
He did an amazing job playingVarys.
Varys is a master of subtlety,like he's not physically
imposing or charismatic in anyway that many other characters
are.
You know you have Tyrion andNed, not Ned he's not
charismatic and Littlefinger,yet his intelligence and his
(11:06):
resourcefulness makes him like amajor force and how the, the
power of the politics in westrose unfolds.
So he has a quiet influencethat seems more dangerous and he
finds a way to again slitherhis way to the top and talk to
the king, or the hand of theking, and that's how he gets his
(11:29):
things done.
Coupled with his ever-presentair of mystery, makes him one of
the most multifacetedcharacters in the book and the
show, and we could probably dolike three parts of just talking
about Varys.
To be honest, you know we'regoing to do this one episode,
but we could probably do anotherone in the future, like part
two.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Well, I honestly could, because I think that
George might have a lot to sayabout Varys as well.
You know I mentioned how Varysis a character that's been
compared to Littlefinger, asthey're both, you know, kind of
like the slithery, sneakycharacters of George's world,
and George was actually askedabout this, about their
relationship and their dynamicwith one another in his world.
I don't know if he wasreferring more to the book
(12:13):
version of these characters orthe show version I'm guessing
the books, of course.
But when asked how he woulddescribe the relationship
between Littlefinger and Varys,he says it's his adversarial.
Both of them know a lot aboutthe other, including some very
damaging things.
They're essentially in astalemate because they know that
if one reveals what they knowabout the other, the other would
reciprocate and they could bothbe destroyed.
(12:33):
I think little finger has abetter idea of what veris wants
than then veris has an idea ofwhat little finger wants.
Little finger is an agent ofchaos who likes to be
unpredictable and succeeds inthat.
There, like just very directly,george says that you know,
little finger is the one that isan agent of.
Yes, he, he wants to messthings up kind of for his own
gain, very essentially want todo that.
He's not an agent of guess.
(12:55):
You would never describe him inthat way.
You know even his manipulationand his tactics.
They're not chaotic, they'revery calm and calculated.
He doesn't want to to messthings up unless they're like
very, very well done, wellorchestrated, and that's why I
think also backs up the factthat he kind of also values his
(13:15):
place and it's in his securityum.
But I found it interesting thatum george says that little
finger has a better idea ofvarus than varus has of little
finger, indicating that maybelittle finger has more better
idea of Varys than Varys has ofLittlefinger, indicating that
maybe Littlefinger has morepower because he is an agent of
chaos.
You know he is kind of more oneto watch out for.
So we should definitely do anepisode on Littlefinger as well,
because he has history as wellit's interesting.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
You said that George said they could both destroy
each other, and it made me thinkabout the United States and
Russia back in the day when theywere like they were in a
stalemate.
They know that if one launchesa nuclear weapon, the other
one's going to launch andthey're just going to destroy
each other.
So they're always like face toface.
(13:58):
They're both like if I tellpeople what I know, and the
other one's like well, if I tellpeople what I know.
But they're, they will if I tellpeople what I know, you know,
but they're not going to do itbecause they know, once one
missile is launched, everythingis just going to blow up and and
they're both going to be done,uh, so I think that was kind of
a funny way of putting it.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
It could be true.
You know that george alwayssays that he gets his
inspiration from history thatjust made me think about the USA
and the USSR.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
I wanted to talk about Varys', not upbringing,
but how he went from Essos andwhere was he In Meereen.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
Varys His beginnings.
He was born in Lys as a slave,but then he traveled with a
group of actors.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
What do they call people from Lys Lysine,
something like that, I think,because slave, but then he
traveled with a group of actors.
What do they call people fromlease lysine, something like
that, I think, because, um, itsounds like a cleaning product
you have over here.
It sounds like lysol lysol.
There you go, let's see.
Um no, so uh, he comes fromlet's just let me just say the
(15:03):
across the narrow sea.
How do you get from there tothe small council?
So back in the day whenDaenerys' dad, the Mad King, was
spiraling into madness, he wasdistrustful of every single
person, even in his council.
He didn't trust his son.
He thought that Rhaegar wasconspiring to get rid of him, so
(15:24):
Rhaegar was conspiring to getrid of him, so Rhaegar could
become king.
Then he hears of a eunuch in Lyswho was really good at
acquiring secrets andinformation and just decided to
bring him to court andimmediately made him the master
whisperer.
And I don't really know if thatwas the position of master
whisperers was something thatwas created by the Mad King, or
(15:45):
if that was something that wasalready there.
So I'll have to look into that.
I should have looked into that.
That's my bad.
So anyway, he became a trustedadvisor because he was rooting
out traitors and people who weretrying to conspire, so he was
really good at it Already.
He figured out to create thisnetwork of spies and his little
(16:06):
birds, as he calls them, andright away he became a trusted
ally.
And during Robert's rebellion.
When Tywin is at the gate ofKing's Landing we have Tywin,
who was, you know, mr he wassupposed to be.
You know, he was the Mad King'shand for 20 plus years.
Once he saw that the tide wasturning and Robert was going to
(16:31):
win, he goes, let me just joinRobert.
So he sacks King's Landing.
But before they open the gate,it is Varys who tells the Mad
King do not open the gate, donot open the gate.
Pycelle convinces Aerys to openthe gate and Jaime kills the
gate.
Paiselle convinces eris to openthe gate and jamie kills the
mad king.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
Blah, blah, blah but I kind of want to like backtrack
just a little bit and answersomething that you said, which
is about the role of the masterof whispers.
Um, we should honestly betalking more about um or doing
more episodes about westerosihistory that a lot of people
don't know about.
I just googled it um, like evenwe need a refresher on this.
But the role was createdbecause King Amegor I, his wife,
(17:11):
tyana of the Tower, wasbasically his mistress of
whispers.
At that point it was said thatspeaking secrets in the Red Keep
was foolish, as rats and othervermin were her spies and she
tortured many enemies of thecrown and basically she was the
first um mistress of whispers.
I guess she she had a role andwe should dive into that more
(17:32):
and talk about it.
I always say that we should gofor those types of older
sargerian kings, but it's sohard to talk about them
sometimes without spoiling houseof the dragon, which is why
we've avoided it for so long.
But yeah, uh, tony, you shouldknow this.
That wasn't created by eris.
We have, we have seen anothermaster whispers and dancing with
dragons and dancing withdragons on house of the dragon
oh yeah, yeah but they don'treally make sense.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
You know it's funny, because they don't.
They don't really call him thatright yeah, I don't think so,
but no, yeah, they don't theydon't refer to him as that, but
we know what he's doing, so weautomatically lump him in with
Varys and Littlefinger.
But I completely yeah, see,it's a brain fart Sometimes.
I'm old, I'm getting old, we'rehuman.
I'm almost oh, I didn't want tosay what I'm almost.
(18:19):
Yeah, you're right.
I mean sometimes, like whenyou're trying to write down
every little detail, you forgetthe simplest ones.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
What happens?
What happens?
Don't worry, I forgive you.
There's some, but there'ssomething that I really wanted
to get into in this episode andsomething that I mentioned in my
intro and it's the reason why Iguess all of you chose ferris
and why he's been going viraland that's for an incredible
scene that he has in season twoof Game of Thrones when he says
a riddle about power andbasically where it lies.
(18:52):
Let's listen to it.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Power is a curious thing.
My lord, are you fond ofriddles?
Why Am I about to hear one?
Three great men sit in a room aking, a priest and a rich man.
Between them stands a commonsellsword.
Each great man bids thesellsword, kill the other two.
Who lives, who dies, depends onthe sellsword, does it?
(19:18):
He has neither crown, nor gold,nor favor with the gods.
He has a sword, the power oflife and death.
But if it's swordsmen who rule,why do we pretend kings hold
all the power?
When Ned Stark lost his head,who was truly responsible?
Joffrey the Executioner orsomething else?
I've decided.
(19:40):
I don't like riddles.
Power resides where men believeit resides.
It's a trick, a shadow on thewall, and a very small man can
cast a very large shadow oh, Igot chills just listening to
(20:02):
that.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
And if you see the edits on tiktok with like the,
the music playing in thebackground, it's, it's amazing.
It makes you remember like thegreatness of Game of Thrones.
Um, and people were discussinglike the meaning of the quote
and appreciating it.
On TikTok and on social mediayou see people in the comments
discussing what's could mean andwhat's like the actual solution
.
You're like what's?
(20:23):
How can you respond to that?
You know, tyrian just says Idon't like riddles, but what's
the actual like interpretation?
So george was actually askedabout this and he gave a very
like long but very interestinganswer that I think would be of
interest to us all.
So he says the whole subject ofpower is fascinating to me.
We're not surprised, george,I'm joking.
(20:44):
So he says how does power work?
What's it based on?
And Verus' riddle, which I wasvery glad they included in the
show.
I think it's one of the mostimportant parts of the book.
He asks Tyrion who has the realpower in this situation.
The rich man, the priest andthe king are each telling the
sellsword to kill the otherpeople.
So it's actually the sellswordwho has the power, since he's
(21:04):
the one who has the sword in hishand, he has the power of life
and death over the other three,but he's going to obey one of
the other three because of theillusion of power.
When I see that scene played outin my mind's eye, these are
three old, fat guys and none ofthem can do anything themselves
to the sellsword, and yet theycommand him because they can
summon other sellswords.
Well, why do all the other?
Our societies are built on thestructure of sand and you see
(21:29):
that periodically with the fallsof great empires and nations.
That's amazing.
And if that just doesn'tcapture Game of Thrones as well,
why it works so well, why it'sso fascinating to us and George
as well, I think the mostsignificant part of his speech
is the line about a very smallman can cast a very large shadow
.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
I mean, he's kind of reflecting on the perception of
power, right, and even thosewith little real power like
himself, like he wants a slave.
He kind of manipulated his wayand played the game and created
an illusion of dominance and hebelieves that illusion and
perception are often morewhat's's the word?
(22:10):
Potent than true, than directpower.
And then his philosophy, Ithink, is what varies, is always
operating from the shadows.
He's pulling strings behind thescenes.
He understands that those whobelieve they hold power are
often the most vulnerablebecause they're not aware of how
(22:30):
little control they actuallyhave.
So it's easier for them.
So I mean that's I'm just sohappy, like george said, that
they included that because theyoriginally didn't have that in
the script.
And I think the person, thewriter who was, who wrote I
don't know who wrote that thatparticular episode, I guess he
was rereading the chapters andhe he found it and he goes oh my
(22:52):
goodness, I forgot, I got toand he added that in at the last
second.
So I was happy that we had awriter who knew the books and
actually read the books and hekind of just let me just do a
little refresher, let me justread this when you think about
monarchs like why is is power isnot inherent as something
(23:14):
that's constructed and webelieve in it.
Okay, your bloodline is becauseyou get to rule over me, you're
superior over me.
That illusion of power can beenough to make people believe
and act on it and kill, andwe're killing for the king.
And it's just like how manywars have in in our, on our
(23:35):
lives and this earth have goneon because people are listening
to.
A so-called king or rulerdoesn't have to be a king or a
prophet or whatever.
It's just kind of where, like,if just us little people just to
take it in our own hands, it'dprobably be a different world
right now.
I mean like I think that's in away I mean, look at what's
(23:57):
happening in the world right now.
We have people who I don't wantto get into this Hold on.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
Do you want to like, like, like backtrack a little
bit, because?
Speaker 2 (24:07):
No, no, no, I don't care.
I'm just going to say that whatI'm trying to say is that we
live in a world where very fewpeople hold the vast majority of
wealth and get to reap all therewards, while the many, many,
many of us are working andtoiling our butts off and we're
(24:28):
we're just fine with it, but wedon't see what's happening
beyond, like we.
Yeah, I let me just stop there,because I'm just gonna go on a
rant that I don't want to reallywant to on this podcast.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
maybe I'll do a another podcast in my in the
future interestingly enough, Idon't know, like how much ferris
would agree with you.
Just to go back to the topic ofVarys, I think that, first of
all, the intersection betweenpower and faith and what you
believe in is very, veryinteresting to me, and I think
(25:00):
that the way that George depictsthis in his world is a very
realistic case, no matter whichera of history you're going to
talk about or what exactly isgoing on in the world.
But but at the same time, Ithink that it's interesting to
see how, like why, peoplebelieve in in things that they
do.
You know what I mean, like whenyou I thought we're getting,
(25:21):
we're getting so off topic rightnow.
But like, for example, withvarus, why does he not really
believe in anything?
Why does he not like root for,for any person?
You mentioned that he's also atargaryen loyalist, but I I
don't 300 say, I believe thathe's 100 targaryen loyalist
because he I don't feel likethat's his core value.
So why do you believe in, inwhat you believe in?
Basically, you know what I meanand like that plays a role in
(25:44):
how you view power.
And that's the same thing withthe religions in the world and
the world of song, wise and fire, like minisandra, for example.
You know what I mean.
Like it's just interesting tothink about why, and like
economical things aside, whichis what you talked about, which
is like valid and stuff I don'tknow, I just like, of course,
all that, but you know what Imean.
Like I don't know, I want tosay something about the
intersection between power andfaith and people's motivations,
(26:08):
and I think that I just want tosay that I think that George
depicts a very accuratedepiction.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
I always say that we could do this an episode.
That speech alone is just worthits weight in gold, because we
could.
Obviously.
We're just, we've been talkingabout it for 10 minutes now.
Just that little speech speechthere and that scene, right,
there is why it's just one ofthe many, many scenes in season
(26:34):
two that make the show so great.
We actually have some questions.
I let me just.
We have five questions here, uh, three questions and two
comments actually.
So, uh, let me just ask thefirst one.
It's from shan film forger, ourfriend.
She says but he's actually amermaid.
Right, I have to know all ofgeorge's descriptions proving it
(26:56):
.
I think when we did a episodeabout theories uh, this is one
that you were so happy to bringup because it was so like fan
theory-ish, like, oh, he's amerman.
That's how he got to Dorne backto Meereen in less than a day.
From what I've seen, there's nosolid evidence in the Song of
Ice and Fire novels to confirmthat Varys is a mermaid, and it
(27:19):
remains entirely speculative.
George has made it clear thatVarys' backstory will be
explored in greater detail infuture books, but so far there's
been no indication that he hasany connections to mermaids or
the like, and I understand whypeople will do the fan theories.
He lives by the water.
(27:40):
He made that little comment toTyrion in season two.
Remember when he says oh,something about the water, he
just keeps paddling.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
Yes, one of the best quotes that he says.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Actually I don't have the quote with me, but he says
something about he gets thrownin the sea or something.
Anyway, if you have it, you canjust go ahead.
Speaker 3 (28:01):
So Varys says, the storms come and go, the waves
crash overhead, the big fish,the big fish.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
The big fish.
I'm leaving that in.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
No, please don't.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Yes, that's funny, come on.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
This is all because of Yoongi, if you know, you know
.
Anyways, the storms come, okay,the storms come and go, the
waves crash overhead, the bigfish eat the little fish and I
keep on paddling.
I referenced this before when Italked about how he's such a
(28:37):
survivor.
He he doesn't want to like, heintends on remaining a survivor
for the rest of the rest of hislife.
So that's why he's not likesettling for any situation
that's gonna put him at any risk.
Do you know what I mean?
Like it's, honestly, eventhough I would say that this is
his motivation, I feel like itkind of goes at odds with him
serving the mad king, but Ithink that that's just the most
(28:59):
secure place for him, even withthe mad king's.
Like madness, because I mean,he, he can play into that I
don't, he never did really butlike it's the most secure place
for him.
You know what I mean.
Like it's better than being onthe streets to him.
He still has a bed, he still,you know, can take care of other
people.
So I'll just say that, yeah,that's just.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
That's varus in my eyes we had a question from
raiden336 says varus died theway danny said he would for the
exact reason why he was executedjustified.
I'd say that's a good questionor a good comment, because I I
want us to dissect the scenehere between denaris and and
(29:41):
various, because I think it'sone of his best scenes and I
like and I like how denaris isvery like stone cold, killer
eyes like you don't betray meand I'll kill you, stuff like
that.
But I just love this, this, thisscene, and I just want us to.
Here we go.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
You sent words to Essos to murder Daenerys
Targaryen.
Your grace, I did what had tobe done To keep yourself alive.
Lord Varys has proven himself aloyal servant.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Proven himself loyal quite the opposite had to be
done to keep yourself alive.
Lord verus has proven himself aloyal servant.
Proven himself loyal.
Quite the opposite.
If he dislikes one monarch, heconspires to crown the next one.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
What kind of a servant is that the kind of the
realm needs?
Incompetence should not berewarded with blind loyalty.
As long as I have my eyes, I'lluse them.
Okay, I'm just gonna stop itthere, because I'll use them.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Okay, I'm just going to stop it there, because when
she tells him that, did you seehow he his tone of voice changed
?
Yes, like he was offended bythe way she said that.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
I think it's one of the few moments we see Varys
speak that way.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
I think we saw him speak that way when Tyrion says
something to him in season twoand he kind of his voice, the
tone of voice changes.
Yes, yes, says something to himin season two and he kind of his
voice, the tone of voicechanges like yes, yes, it goes
deeper, kind of yes, and I justlove the way he just says I'm
not going to be loyal justbecause you, you have to.
Uh, I will be loyal to thecrown, but to a certain point
I'm not going to be loyal, ifyou're mad or whatever and um,
(31:06):
but anyway, let me just, we'llhear the rest.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
I wasn't born into a great house.
I came from nothing.
I was sold as a slave andcarved up as an offering.
When I was a child I lived inalleys, gutters, abandoned
houses.
You wish to know what my trueloyalties lie.
Not with any king or queen, butwith the people.
The people who suffer underdespots and prosper under just
(31:30):
rule.
The people whose hearts you aimto win.
If you demand blind allegiance,I respect your wishes.
Grey Worm can behead me or yourdragons can devour me, but if
you let me live, I will serveyou well.
I will dedicate myself toseeing you on the Iron Throne.
(31:51):
Because I choose you?
Because I know that people haveno better chance than you.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
Demanding blind allegiance?
That sounds very familiar,anyway.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
This is season seven, Tony.
This is one of the seasons thatwe can't really take seriously.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
No, I'm just saying that the way he said if you
require blind allegiance, I'mtalking about real world now.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
Oh my.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
God, but no, let's finish this.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Swear this to me Varys If you ever think I'm
failing the people, you won'tconspire behind my back.
You'll look me in the eye, asyou have done today, and you'll
tell me how I'm failing them.
I swear it, my queen.
Speaker 3 (32:59):
And I swear this, If you ever betray me I'll burn you
alive.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
I would expect nothing less from the Mother of
Dragons.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
I would expect nothing less from the mother of
dragons.
So, raiden, your comment was hedied the way Danny said he
would, and she was true to herword.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
She was always true to her word.
Then suddenly they decided youknow what?
Speaker 2 (33:26):
no, this is season 7, which we talk about a lot, and
this is one of the better scenesof the season.
She just looks so amazing there.
Anyway, I just you ever seenModern Family?
Speaker 3 (33:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
When Phil says he's attracted to powerful women.
Oh, I don't remember that hegoes Condoleezza Rice, michelle
Obama he named just black women.
He goes wait a minute.
In that moment I think heconvinced her because she
appreciated him being forthrightand she probably never seen
(34:09):
that.
You don't really see that oftenwhen you're talking to you know
, a king or queen, like peopleare scared or trying to.
They're walking on eggshells,so to speak.
You know we don't want tooffend you, but he's like you
know what?
If you want, if you want me tojust follow you, just to follow
you, then just kill me.
I guess I can't stand back andjust not tell you if you're
(34:29):
doing something wrong.
That dynamic is something I wishwe had.
If Berenson was still alive,that would have been funny
because he had a relationshipwith Rivera as well.
They're both in the same smallcouncil.
I'm just throwing stuff outthere.
So that answers your questionor comment there.
Raiden, while we're doinglittle clips here, I just want
(34:53):
to add a couple more, but Ithought this was kind of a
foreshadowing.
This was all the way back inseason two, when um varus learns
about daenerys not learns abouther, but he that she's still
alive this morning I heard asong all the way way from Qarth,
beyond the Red Waste.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Daenerys Targaryen lives.
A girl at the edge of the worldis the least of our problems.
She has three dragons.
But even if what they say istrue, it'll be years before they
are fully grown, and thenthere'll be nowhere to hide.
One game at a time, my friendnowhere to hide.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
Indeed, when she rains fire on king's landing but
he's not there.
I have a question here fromcaden underscore.
Crippin asks are there any bigdifferences between book and
show?
Varys and that's the one that Ispent the most time researching
and writing because there are alot of big differences between
(35:59):
show and book.
Varys, like most of thecharacters, once you get, once
you read them all, you'll kindof be like you know what was the
biggest surprise.
Is this, this, this, this, this, this character?
Just to start off, varys is nota point of view character in the
novel, so we don't get to seehis POV at all.
So his actions are witnessedand interpreted by, like Ned
(36:22):
Stark, tyrion, cersei, arya,when she hears the people
talking in you know where thedragon skulls were, and I think
maybe sansa will mention himonce in a while.
But those were the characterswhere he interacted with the
most.
Uh, and game of thrones showshim to be a little more caring
to his little birds, treatingthem kindly and offering them
(36:43):
like rewards for their service,or however, but in the book he's
a little less nurturing.
So varus uses kids whosetongues have been cut off or cut
out.
He doesn't cut them himself,but he prefers them.
In those conditions.
This darker aspect of hispersona disappears in the show.
So his counterpart in the showis more gentler to the kids, so
(37:06):
he's not like this ruthlessa-hole.
And, like I mentioned before inthe episode, he was a master of
disguise and we don't reallysee that.
Actually, that would have beentoo comical for me.
And the show's so serious likeGame of Thrones for him to like
be in a dress and a wig andmakeup.
Tyrion would have been likejust like busting out, laughing
(37:27):
or something, just for like amoment of, and I don't know if
that would have been like withhis character.
So anyway, there are differentthings in the novels that I
could say, because it was in thebook and the show he does help
Tyrion escape after Tywin'smurder, but he doesn't join him
in the.
In the show he joins him, butin the novel he remains in the
(37:49):
red keep and hiding.
Okay.
So I kind of made a mistake.
So, like show Varys isconcerned relies on finding a
capable leader on for the IronThrone, whoever that is.
But book Varys is like hisintent is to put a Targaryen in
the Iron Throne but, like Imentioned, it's not Daenerys.
(38:09):
So what happens is spoileralert.
Here we go.
If you haven't read the book,minwan says she's okay, she kind
of heard this already.
You haven't read the book.
Minwan says she's okay, shekind of heard this already.
I won't spoil the last pagebecause I think it's fascinating
.
I'm just going to spoil alittle bit.
Spoiler alert Three, two, one,okay.
So in the fifth book, varys andIllyrio get together again and
(38:31):
they have.
This plot At first was to putViserys on the throne, but then
we find out there's a characternamed Yungryph.
He is introduced as the son ofRhaegar Targaryen claims to have
survived the Second King'sLanding and escaped to Essos.
In the show, rhaegar's kid andson and daughter are killed by
the mountain.
In reality, yungryph is notRhaegar's son, but a pretender
(38:56):
created by Varys and Illyrio.
So what happens is they plan topresent Aegon to challenge
Daenerys' claim to the throne.
So Young Griff is awell-trained, charismatic young
man with a compelling backstory.
He's been basically trainedsince birth to act like a king,
to talk like a king, despite hisfalse identity young Greek
(39:18):
police.
So he believes he's anArthargarian.
Speaker 3 (39:22):
Oh, okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
He aims to take the Iron Throne with the support of
the Golden Company.
His appearance creates asignificant threat to Daenerys,
especially with the support he'sgarnering.
What they truly want to do iseither put Aegon in the throne
or have Aegon say hey, this isyour nephew, right?
That would be her nephew,correct?
No, yeah, yeah, Rhaegar was herbrother.
(39:45):
I'm all like confused now.
Rhaegar was Daenerys' brother,so that would be her nephew,
Like Jon, is her nephew right?
Speaker 3 (39:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
Yeah, so, anyway, uh.
So this is the big storylinethat was left out of the show
and was replaced by John beingson of Liana and Rhaegar and
then him being the AegonTargaryen character, but we
didn't get anything out of it,right, aegon Targaryen character
?
But we didn't get anything outof it, right?
(40:16):
So anyway, uh, this is going tobe interesting because this is
how is we?
We leave off with a trying tosack the city and it ends like
that.
And we have a comment fromLewis who says he Lewis Lulu
review says I have no question,but Varys is cameo at the end of
a dance with dragons.
It gives me chills every time.
Speaker 3 (40:43):
Meanwhile, no question, but varus's cameo at
the end of a dance with dragonsgives me chills every time.
Meanwhile, we'll find out inabout four years he's trying to
be a little cheeky our friendthere, maybe, honestly, maybe,
or or uh, I just catch up on thebook stuff before reading the
actual books.
I'm joking, I I don't want toactually do that, but I do think
that, like, because my readingpace is not like the fastest,
then I think that like it wouldbe really like beneficial or
(41:06):
like interesting to do episodeson people like young griffin,
let's just talk about, likethose abandoned book plots, like
, and I'll just try to catch up,you know what I mean, I'll try
my best, and and because I knowthat they're so interesting and
they won't see the lights of dayin the show, of course we won't
see them in live action.
So we should do something likethat.
I should spoil it you know what.
It's fine If I can't catch up.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
You are so smart Because you just gave me the
great of a series we could doabandoned book plots.
(41:48):
There you go.
Yeah, that's perfect.
I said do you underestimate mygenius?
And you said, yes, I don't seeyou appreciate it.
Okay.
So, um, he's talking about theend of the book and varys comes
out.
I'm not going to say whathappens, but it's bone chilling.
The hairs on your body aregoing to perk up and give you
goosebumps.
Once you get to that, andhopefully by the time you get to
that, we actually have Winds ofWinter, and you could just
continue straight on.
(42:09):
So that's one of the scenesthat I'm on, one of the plots
that would have been included inthe show, but we don't get All
right Spoiler alert Done.
We're done with spoilers.
So we're finishing up theepisode here and I wanted to ask
you what do you see Varys as?
Do you see him as a hero?
(42:29):
Do you see him as a villain, ordo you see him as one of those
characters that are in between?
Speaker 3 (42:36):
you don't know what to think of um, I see him as
definitely a gray area type ofcharacter.
For sure, he's not good, nor ishe bad, and I think that that's
just because he doesn't doanything to to really be
classified as good or bad.
He acts in like a certain way,but I don't think any of it is
unethical, you know what.
(42:56):
I mean, it's not, he's a verygray area character, and those
gray area characters are thecharacters, I guess, that make
Game of Thrones so interestingin what it is Like.
You know him, jaime, it's goingto be said for almost everyone
in this universe, but he's, Ithink, like a prime example of
someone that's just seems to be.
(43:18):
he's not a spectator, he's aplayer in the game of thrones,
but again, he's not like so he'snot as much of a player that,
like, seeks ambition and wantsto you know what I mean like he
doesn't want to win this gamefor himself he's not.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
He's not self-serving like little finger and cersei,
but he he's also not likealtruistic.
His belief in the greater goodoften justifies action that
causes harm.
So that's the true like.
His true nature is ambiguousand he's a character that works
like from the shadows andbalancing the, the principles,
(43:53):
with realities of power.
So blah, blah, blah.
You know what.
You know what I mean Like.
So yeah, I mean you could seehim totally as a gray area and I
don't see him as a hero because, like, I don't, just I'm not
jiving with the.
He's serving the greater good,because deep down, he's not
driven by personal power but theidea of creating a peaceful
Westeros.
(44:13):
I'm not totally saying, oh yeah, I believe him.
I would believe if Ned wouldsay that I want a peaceful this,
I want to have a prosperous.
I would go oh, ned, I believeyou.
But when it comes from Varys,I'm like no, I'm not.
Because it's just, it's toomuch manipulation from him to be
(44:35):
an honorable piece, because Idon't see any honor in him he
does he does help tyrian in manyways, like he's, he warns him
about stuff.
He warned ned even though heknew ned wouldn't take his
advice, but he said it anyway sohe can get in good graces with
ned.
That's how he plays the game.
(44:56):
You know, I'm not.
I I know ned's not gonna sayanything, but let me like, even
when he went to visit ned in thecells, in the black cells, like
he said, why would you tellcersei that you knew about the
secret?
And that's us.
We as the audience are like yes, why no?
(45:16):
Why ned?
Why did you?
Why would you say something sostupid?
You know he has those momentsof helping and then he has his
moments with the narrows, likehe's trying to actually be loyal
to her.
But then his past comes backand you know we, we get the
scene in season eight with himbeing killed, and you know, so
on yeah, I think that'sdefinitely where veris would lie
(45:38):
, for for most fans and orappreciators of george's world,
neither good nor bad.
Speaker 3 (45:44):
But actually came across a very interesting fan
theory during my research and um, of course the merman one is
hilarious and we we enjoyedtalking about it because it is
funny, um, but there's anotherone where it might actually make
you think or wonder, I don'tknow.
This theory basically says thatwhy did the sorcerer need to
(46:04):
use there, why did he need touse a body part of a random
child?
You know, because that's whathe was at that point.
The explanation that thistheorizer says that varus might
have royal blood, that's kind ofbeen done before in game of
thrones.
You know where someone's royalblood was chosen and then like
sacrificed or like harmed, oryou know, because of their blood
(46:26):
.
You know, we've seen melisandrechoose gendry for like whatever
she needed to do with her magic.
Um, and you know, this personsays that, oh, actually varus
could be Aegon, which I, ofcourse, I don't think is true.
Um, they say that.
You know, it explains how Varysknows the right to keep, where
only the Targaryens know theright to keep, and stuff like
that.
But I don't, I don't like that.
I just think that, um, it'sinteresting because, like you
(46:52):
know, it makes you wonder.
Why did that sorcerer choosethe random kid that was Varys
for his ritual?
Why not someone else?
What made him so special andinteresting?
It's an interesting thing thatmakes you wonder.
Speaker 2 (47:06):
Before we go, I have a question for you that I wrote
down.
If you could have Varys' spynetwork, who would you want to
know about the most?
Speaker 3 (47:16):
In the world of A song of ice and fire.
Yes, like to my own business,so I don't.
I'm not that curious um wait aminute.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
You don't like tea?
Speaker 3 (47:24):
I thought you liked tea I mean like I like hearing
it sometimes, but I'm not thebiggest gossip you know I
wrapped up all you're like.
Speaker 2 (47:32):
You know I need to know everybody's business no, no
I don't like tell you like,okay, I'm, I have enough going
on in my mind.
Speaker 3 (47:37):
I don't need to know everybody's business.
No, no, I have enough going onin my mind.
I don't need to know what otherpeople unless it's what they're
dealing with could damage orcould hurt me, then okay, that's
one thing, because you're goingto be looking out for me.
But just gossip, I don't thinkI'm interested.
It depends who I am as well.
If I was someone like Sansa orArya, I don't care.
Gossip, I don't think I'minterested.
(47:57):
Like, it depends who I am aswell.
Speaker 2 (47:57):
like if I was someone like sansa or aria, I don't
care, I don't know, I don't knowif I was, if I was the king, I
would say varus, I need you toknow, I need you just to look
out for anybody who's conspiringor somebody who has ill
intentions against me.
Like, if people want to talkand say whatever or they're
making a joke, that's fine.
(48:18):
But somebody who has true, likeI want to know who my enemies
are, like tell me.
Like I want to know who I needto be worried about, that's the
yeah and I'll say go go, go outand and tell your little birds
or whatever, and give me theinfo yeah, that's, that's like
it's welcome, that's like what Isaid, like but if I'm not just
(48:40):
a commoner harm me and we'relike yeah, like if someone wants
to harm me, then he wants tocome and warm warn me, then sure
, that's like, that's not gossip, that's that's protection,
that's that's good yeah, I'm acommoner.
Yeah, I'm be like okay, is mywife unfaithful?
What's going on?
Where is she going?
Speaker 3 (48:59):
like if I was sans I wouldn't want to tell virus.
Like, oh, is cersei talking,you know trash about me.
Or if I was marjorie I wouldn'twant to.
You know, like about marjorie.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
Or if marjorie we can do, the plot sounds like it's
no, who cares, it's just if it'sa matter of like life and death
, and then okay, fine, come andtell me, but otherwise no this
has been a fascinating episodeum shining the light on varus,
and I think that I want to putthe audio of the last scene that
varus is in in the game ofthrones, season eight.
Speaker 1 (49:29):
It was me I hope I deserve this Truly.
I do.
I hope I'm wrong.
Goodbye, old friend.
Speaker 3 (49:53):
Lord Varys I, daenerys of House, targaryen,
first of my name, Breaker ofChains and Mother of Dragons
sentence you to die.
Dracarys.
Speaker 2 (50:39):
At that point the show made us feel bad for Varys.
Speaker 3 (50:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:43):
So, yeah, that's how Varys ended his arc in the show.
His arc is alive in the booksand hopefully we'll get to see
it in the next one, Winds ofWinter.
We should have a clicker everytime we say winds of winter on
this show yeah ding, ding, ding.
Speaker 3 (51:00):
Winds of winter I just want to say that when we
started this podcast for somereason I think it was in our
original like plan we thoughtthat we'd be doing these
character deep dives, like onceevery couple of weeks, and I
honestly think that we shouldjust really do that again or
like stick to that plan or dothem more regularly, because I
had so much fun talking aboutVarys and just showing him a
(51:22):
little appreciation and you knowwe can never run out of
characters in Geordi's world so.
I this wasn't our first one.
We've covered Mad King beforein the past as well.
I just think it would be somuch fun to talk about all the
different characters, and ifthere's anyone that you or your
listeners want us to cover, thenplease let us know on Instagram
.
We would love to know what youguys would want to hear from us
(51:44):
about.
Speaker 2 (51:45):
Yeah, and I think what we'll do is we'll keep
putting polls up for our next,not our next one, but in the
future I'll put a poll up ofcharacters and see who wins the
poll.
That's going to be all for our60th episode of dancing with
dragons.
We thank you all for listeningand tuning in, so follow us on
social media.
We have instagram dancing withunderscore dragons.
(52:06):
There you can keep up with thepodcast.
I put up stories uh, you cankeep up with when we are going
to post the episode, when we putup prompts for you to send us
questions.
We put up reels and all thatsort of fun stuff For those
listening on Spotify, applePodcasts, iheartradio, any other
(52:27):
of the millions of podcastplatforms we appreciate, if you
like, rate, share, comment.
All that good stuff and untilnext time, peace out.
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